00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. In this episode number two hight four and today in the show, we are exploring how to prepare like a pro for the upcoming hunting season by hearing from expert d I Y bow hunter Andy May on the archery, scouting, stand, site and mental planning preparations he executes each summer. Okay, so real quick, before we get into this discussion, we do need to quickly thank on x for the support of this podcast. On next to the creator of the on X hunt app, which is the mobile mapping tool I use for all of my hunting adventures. I use it all spring and summer as I scout and plan hunting locations, and then I'm using it all fall as I'm hunting and marking various locations, navigating private land and public land boards, all that kind of stuff. It's it's almost always in use for me, no matter what time of year, so highly recommend it. Heading over to the mobile app store of your choice or visit on x maps dot com to learn more. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X and today I am sitting here in my home office in person with my buddy Andy May. Andy, thanks for making the drive over here. There had no problem, man, happy to do it. We're gonna try to get out and shoot our bows and do some stuff like that. It's just been raining and crappy as it's been almost for the last three months, so figured this we get opportunity, though, to to chat about some stuff. Um and I thought we could chat about some stuff that's particularly relevant to a little series that I've been running here on the podcast, and I think you've heard some of those episodes right about kind of all the different habits or practices or routines or training regimens that are helped people achieve excellence in other fields and how those things might be able to apply to what we're doing here as hunters. So we study or we talked to a guy who's an Olympic free skier, We talked to an author who's studying these types of things across athletics and business and art and all sorts of things. Um and we're gonna continue to talk to some different people here in the coming weeks. But I thought today we might be able to do a really nice tie in. So take those ideas, tie it into something that's super relevant to deer hunting, which is, how do you take all those things and put them into action in the summer? Right June, right now, we're in like that, at least for me. I don't know how it is for you, but I feel like when you hit to June, it's like the final countdown now lidium to hunting season. For some reason, those three months lead into September seem like, Okay, you better really get your stuff in order. It's it's all about ramping up now towards fall. Do you feel like that, I don't have. There's like an added pressure or something. It's coming. It's here. You can just almost see hunting season. How do you do you ever feel like that once June? Yeah? Totally. Um. I mean I try to I try to stay uh kind of prepared all year long, but I definitely seem to kind of ramp it up towards summer, and um, I guess I guess subconsciously I'm trying to peek, you know, right when hunting season hits you know kind of with everything with with archery, with my just overall preparation, um, you know, physical fitness, all that stuff. So I do try to keep everything kind of um where I want it year round, but I definitely do kind of feel that pressure building and that excitement, and it just kind of focus on trying to peak everything and get everything dialed in, you know, right in time. And you're talking about the excitement. That is definitely a thing too. Sometimes I almost find that I love the anticipation of the months leading up hunting season almost as much as I like the actual hunting season. Like I love getting out there and seeing the bucks in the bean fields. I love you know, shooting out back with your buddies, and I love all that, like checking the trail cameras and just all the excitement and like that, oh what might possibly happen this year? Like those feelings, And that's some of my favorite stuff. Yeah, it's awesome. Like you know, your text text messages with your close groups of friends is like increasing, and we're talking about gear and trips and all that stuff. I mean, I love it. You can't beat that. But but what you mentioned a second ago is why I thought you'd be the right guy I talked to about this because you mentioned that you're trying to be preparing and doing things all year, not just in the summer, but all year long. And and of the people that I know that are close friends and also very very successful hunters, you're one of the best that I've seen of of really following through on the offseason stuff. From everything I've seen and heard from you, it seems like you are quite busy all through the year. You've said numerous times and some of the past conversations we've had, um just off air and on the podcast about how much priority you put on things like scouting and that, and how that's almost more important than the actual hunting sometimes. Uh um. So what I want to do here, which we've not done in the past, is do a really deep dive on what your summer looks like, everything that's going on. So some of the routines, how you're how you're making archery practice, party routine, how you're going about and doing all the different scouting worth that you may or may not be doing this time of year. Whatever final preparations you're doing, prepping locations, preparating access. I don't know doing trail cameras. UM, I don't know a whole lot about what your summer situation looks like. So that's what I'm kind of curious to dive in and see what UM someone like you is doing in these final three months or so before the season. UM. So maybe a good place to start is what you were just doing this past weekend, because you were just at the Total Archer Challenge, right, and we just before we start recording, you said that you actually look at Total Archer Challenge is something that you work towards. So it's not like you were just starting your preparation now for the hunting season. You've been actually preparing for Whole Archer Challenge, which is then probably helping you prepare for hunting season three months from now. What what does that? Why do you look at t C like that? What did the preparation look like? Why was that something that you thought you really wanted to work towards. UM, And maybe even sorry to interrupt you, we should maybe also explain what Total Archer Challenges for people that are familiar. Yeah, the Total Archer Challenge is UM an event that, uh, it's held in several locations. I've only done the one in Michigan just because it's kind of close to home and easy for my friends and I to travel too. But um, it's an event that is designed to kind of mimic UM more of I guess that like an out West type hunting scenario, not not necessarily um every shot. There's plenty of um, you know, shots that we would encounter, you know here in the Midwest, that type of thing, but they make it challenging, um in the fact that, um, you know, the shots are typically longer distance. UM, you know a lot of a lot of shots in that forty two sixty yard range, and you know, of those shots, you're a lot of times you're trying to you know, slip it through an area you know, two three inches wide down range or in the brush where the shadows and the lighting is so bright you really can't make out what you're you know, what you're aiming at. And then some of the harder courses. They it really incorporates some much longer shots with some steep you know steep um declining shots and a lot of like elevation hiking up and down. So it's a it's a cool event that kind of tests your your shooting skill as well as physically, um, you know, it can be somewhat physically demanding. Two. We shot three courses in a day and a half and I think we I can't remember exactly. I think my bod he was tracking. I think we put on like thirteen and a half miles. So you know, it's it's good, um, you know, and it's out. You're out there in the heat, and you know you're you're you're shooting down down range. You got taken the window account. Um, you know, the you know if the targets lower than where you're standing and and you know, cutting that range and all that stuff. So it's not one of those things you're gonna you know, pull your bow out of your bowcase and show up and do well. And some people probably do that though, don't they Oh yeah yeah, maybe don't do well, but they show up and just shoot. Yeah yeah, I think a lot of people do that. Um. But for me, personally, I just I kind of take it as a just almost like a personal challenge that you know, um, I want to prepare for it and so that I'm shooting very well when I get there, and and my goal is to you know, not miss any shots, and I'm like, you know, I want to put them all on the kill zone. I'm not keeping score or anything. I'm just you know, aiming behind the shoulder like I would in a hunting scenario. But that's like a goal of mine, like I want to go there and do well as a challenge to myself, not to outdo anybody else, but just kind of proved to myself that, um, you know that I can do well there and make some of those challenging shots, and just to kind of improve. That's the main thing. I just I just want to constantly improve. And it's interesting you say that, and it makes me think about and this is probably something I need to tie to my archery practice, because I tie this to like my physical fitness stuff. I am not. I'm just not personally good at being the person who's just gonna get up and get pumped to be working out every day. Just to do it. I typically need to have some kind of goal I'm working towards, like some kind of event or something that's like weighing on me, so that I when I wake up in the morning and it's five thirty in the morning and I don't want to get out of bed, and I think I don't want to go do my run, but then I remember, oh, you got that trip coming up, and if you don't stay to your what you said you're gonna do with this running trying to get in shape, you're gonna get your butt kicked. You have to do it or I know many times I've been coming back to the final stretch of a run and it's the last hundred yards and I'm whooped, and I always try to sprint that last hundred yards, just just push it there at the end, and I've had many times and I can always I still I always imagine the same scenario. It's at the last hundred yards, I'm so exhausted, I just want to stop. And then I had this little conversation in my head as I'm starting to sprint, and like, what are you gonna happen? Whence the last hundred yards And there's an elk at the top of the hill and you have to get there before he goes over the other side. And so I imagine trying to round the hill with my bow and being there to get that elk before he goes to the overside. And that's the kind of stuff that like, help me push through, help me stick to the kinds of things I'm trying to do. Um, it kind of seems like Total Archer Challenge was a thing like that, a little bit for you to have that challenge, that goal to work towards, which then is helping you work towards larger goals. Yeah, totally. It's a I looked at it as a you know, a preparation you know for hunting. For sure. I'm going out west again this year, and you mentioned kind your run and what you're thinking that last hundred yards. Well, I'm going on my first elk hunt, um so. And it's in a it's a in a part of Colorado that what I'm told is the rugged of the rugged, you know. Um, A lot of people avoid it, um just because of it's it's really hard to navigate. But um, I've been doing the same, Like I work out year round, but I've been changing my my workouts and really focusing on that elk hunt coming out because I wanna I want to make sure that, um, you know, my elk muscles are are are good, and that my endurance is good, and you know my cardio and and that I'm able to you know handle weight. So I've changed my workout and be gearing towards that because I feel the same way. I don't want that to be the limiting factor. In fact, I want to make sure, um that I eliminate anything that could possibly uh caused me not to have success. I want to eliminate as much as that as possible. There's already so many variables outside of our control, right, That's right. That's what I'm always trying to remind myself. There's so much they can go wrong, just a nature that nature is gonna throw at me. I better make sure I can control everything I can. That's right. And I can handle if nature throws me something and something goes wrong. I can handle if that. If that bull is coming in and you know he gets down winded me and he outsmarted me or whatever, I can handle. That I can't handle when the mistake falls on my shoulders. That that really hits hard for me, and it always has. Like I take that stuff to heart. It drives me nuts and I literally like it makes me crazy and sick for for months. I mean I will literally fuster over that stuff. And then um, I'll just make sure that that that never happens again, you know, or do what I can to make sure that never happens again. And that's I guess that's kind of how my preparation with hunting, you know, over the last ten fifteen years has always been. And it's just anything that I control or right, that I can control and that I can improve, Like I just I'm motivated to do that. I feel like I owe it to the animals, and it's just something it's actually something I just enjoy doing in general. So, um just trying to improve all those areas to just eliminate mistakes. If I make a mistake, that's fine, it's you use it as like a a learning tool and that's how you improve. But you gotta you gotta identify, admit that you made that mistake, and then do what you need to do to fix it. Yea. So let's pivot back to the archery side. Um so, so, Tarler Total Archery Challenge. Was this one of these different stepping stone challenges to work towards prepare yourself for hunting season. You said you wanted to go into it and get a kill shot on every one of them, did you? Yeah? I this was the actually the first year I've done it three years. Was the first year that I UM missed a target and it was it was a shot at I think it was like a vetted sheep or something up and incline, but about forty yards down range. You had to put it between two trees and maybe three inches apart. And half of my group stepped to the left where it was wide open, and then half of the group stayed right where we were supposed to shoot and tried to snake it through and uh, I pinwheeled the little tree on the left, so it would have went right into the vitals, but I didn't. I didn't make it through the little three inch gap. But other than that, yeah, I was very happy with the way I shot. Um, I mean I was. I was execute my shot well, I felt steady. Um. I put a lot of shots in the ten ring and pretty much all of them in the vitals. Um. So yeah, I was actually really really pleased with the way I shot, the way the bow performed, and you know it, it was just a great time. So what do you do to prepare for something like that? And I guess answer me, this, did your preparation for T A C look dramatically different? Than what your preparation would look like leading into hunting season, whereas the same kind of thing, just you're doing it earlier. Um, it's not dramatically different. I've kind of come into this, um this routine or this method that I do to kind of prepare for a hunting season. Um, so I guess it hasn't It wasn't that different than what I did for the Total Archery Challenge. I think with the Total Archery Challenge, what I what I do is maybe pick up the long distance shooting just a little earlier because I know I'm gonna have some plus yard shots. So, um, you know, once I get my bow shooting the way I wanted it, Um, you know, I went through all you know, the the aero building and the aero configuration, the testing against different things. Once I was confident in that, then I got my mark, my site marks, and then I just basically was shooting sixty two hundred and thirty. Um. So so walk us through what that actually looks like. So how much time are you spending getting all that gear tuned up like that? Is that? When does that begin? When are you doing that stuff? How Like literally talks to the whole thing from the beginning. And then once that's done, what is what's actually happening that you said you're shooting at sixty out to one thirties, that you're doing that every day, is that you're doing once a week. Is that you're doing it twice a day? Talk me through all of that. Okay, So, um, basically what you know, how I start everything is like, I uh, I'm I build my own arrows. So I have found an arrow that works really good for my setup. Um, and that was through a lot of trial and error. So I ordered my shafts uncut, unfleshed, nothing installed. I cut him myself because what I found is like you know, you get them from you know, some archery shops and stuff. If you know, they have them pre cut and they pre flesh, and you get twelve and you weigh them and you might get some that are you know, four or five. I've had as much as ten grains difference between a dozen. So that's just not you know that that the way my mind works that that's not good enough. So I order my shafts, I cut them myself, and then um, the next thing I do is I square both ends. So there's a g five makes a little squaring device. Um just because the saw cuts, it doesn't mean it's perfectly square. So if you're knock or your insert, um you know, isn't sitting flush to the shaft, that's gonna affect your impact. So I make sure both ends are square, and then I go through with my scale and I weigh all the shafts, make sure they're all coming in, um, you know, exactly the same. And that's when I go and I install my um my components. So I use like a fifty five grain stainless steel insert. Um, I weigh all those individually. So just in case I get one that's fifty five or fifty four. Uh, you know, if I have a shaft that's one green lighter, I'll put you know, I'll mix and match to make sure the arrows are as i'm building them. They're weighed the same, they're coming in exactly the same. So I do the same with the same thing with the knox. So um as you know, as I'm building these arrows. Once I get them all built, and they're all ways the same with the knock, the shaft, the insert, and the point and what are you doing? This is this is this different times a year or every year. Do you say, all right, it's March, this is the time to get my arrows ready. Do you have any kind of like routine yearly when this happens, there's just as needed. Usually my my mind focuses back to archery hardcore right when the season ends. So, um, I do a lot of like indoor stuff. Um, you know, I'll go down to like the local archery shop and I'm shooting and I'm and I'm that's this is kind of my time of year to like test things. So Okay, I know, I know my setup last year worked great because I tested things and I went with the best setup I could. Now I'm trying to find can I improve it? What can I do to get better? So? Um, was there anything last year? And Sarah keep interrupting you, but um, so looking back at last season when he got to the season being done January or February, and you're starting to have this conversation with yourself this year two thousand nineteen, was there something that you looked at from last year that I want to change this? Did you have something to do? Yeah? Yeah, and I'll actually get to that. Cool, So I should just shut up and let you know that's okay, it's actually coming. So once I get those bear shafts made, then I then I go to paper with the bear shaft, okay, And what I'm doing is I'm trying to get a perfectly centered circle bullet hole with the bear shaft shout through a piece of paper that's stretched. That's right. This is assuming your bow was already too, And I'm not gonna go through all that. Your bow was tuned perfectly. Um, your aerial spine matches your bow. That's all a prerequisite. That should all be done, you know, that should all be found out and done, you know, before this point. So I shoot through paper and I make sure I'm getting that perfect bullet hole. So I might shoot three and you know, I'm just you know, just the rest a little or just my the spacers on on the Matthews bow there, just to make sure I get perfect arrow flight. So then I'm getting bullet hole bullet hole. Then I grab another shaft and I'm getting a slight left tear. Okay. So then what that means is, you know, every errol is a little different, every knocks a little different. So I rotate it, shoot it again. They call that knock indexing. So I do that, rotate left a quarter a quarter until I get that perfect bullet hole. You make me feel like such a schmuck. Well, I don't do anything. It's okay, that's okay. And and I'm not saying you have to do this. I know a lot of guys that do nothing like this and kill plenty. So this is just this is just what I do. I'm not telling anyone else you need to do it. And I'm not even telling and I'm not even saying it's the right thing to do. It's just what I do. And what I do might change, you know, from year to year. It's kind of morphed into and if anything, it tends to get a little more involved. Um, you know, but sometimes I have to tell myself, you know, enough is enough. You know it's shooting good like you just run with it. So, um, I knock index tim getting the bullet hole with every single shaft. If there's a shaft that I just can't get that bullet hole with, I usually keep that as like a practice shaft. So okay, I got them all shooting perfect bullet hole. I'm mark on the top, like with a little sharpie of silver sharpie where that top is, so so I know when I fletch, I'm gonna fletch it. So that's the top of the arrow, because I know what's coming out of the boat perfectly straight. So then I go and I fletch same thing, weighing each fletching, making sure they all, you know, all dozen, all two dozen arrows end up being exactly the same. And you know, from there, that's when I go out and I that's when I start, you know, sitting in my bow getting my marks. And you asked me if I changed anything from last year, and I did so a big thing. Um you know, in April in May, I was testing errow flight with down range grouping. So I forgot to bring it. I was gonna bring it, but I have this big chart that I do where I shoot. You know, I'll shoot at forty, I'll shoot at eighty. And what I'm doing is I'm shooting three arrow groups and I'm I'm measuring the group. Okay, so I might do this bow to bow like my halon thirty two versus my traverse, just to see which one I'm shooting better. But what I was really focusing on, I did shoot those two bows against each other, but I was also shooting on three flesh versus four fletch. Okay, so what I noticed with uh my, my three frets three fletch last year, I noticed my arrow flight was a little noisier than I wanted. And I was like, okay, I want to I want slightly quieter flight. It wasn't a big deal. I killed, you know, I killed some animals. But I think I can get better. I think I can get the arrow quieter downrange. So I went with a lower profile four flesh so that I was using Um, yeah, I tested those against each other and over I think I shot I don't know, eighty groups, you know, marketing measuring the greatest distance between the two farthest arrows, you know, in my group out of the three arrow group, and it was clear that for me, the four fletched was more accurate than the three. Now we're talking let's say at forty yards, Say my group was um, you know, uh inch and a half with the four flesh and with the three flesh at one point six seven. I mean we're talking splitting hairs here, right. Kind of seems silly, but to me, for me, it's just like, hey, I improved. Remember we talked. We talked about before you grab inches everywhere, and for me that's an inch. And it's also just kind of um helps increase my confidence, like, hey, I'm shooting you know, point one point one inch better. So I don't know, mentally, it's uh, I think it's good for you. Um. So then then what I did is I started using some slow motion video and I was just I wanted to see the errow flight. So now, like with your iPhone or some of these these high end cameras, you can you know, put the camera right behind you shoot that erroow flight and slow motion to actually see what your arrow is going doing down wind. And it was I don't know if you remember, but the spring was really wind. It was hard to find a calm day to shoot. So I was like, still feels like it now, I'm right, so when to hear my Yeah, I remember we were trying to get ready for Total Archer Challenge to get our long range you know, uh marks on it, and it's like we couldn't get a day where it was calm. So with that slow motion photography or video, what I what I noticed was like man, when you shoot in a cross wind, your arrow comes out of the bow and then depending you know, depending on you know where where the winds blowing or which direction your your arrow kicks big time one way or another, depending So if you're getting a right to left, your arrow will kick way knock left out there. And I never realized, I guess I kind of just assumed the arrow would just kind of drift. Well it doesn't. It pulls that back in and pulls the fletching because it's more right. Yeah, And I figured it did that to a point, but I was I couldn't believe how dramatic it was. And I was like, holy smokes, if I hit an animal at that distance where it's at mid kick, like, where's my penetration? So I reached out to I reached out to all these guys. I talked to Tim Gillingham, Uh, you know a bunch of pro shooters, basically because you know these are the guys I feel like, think like me, you know what I mean, like, um, as far as I guess, I prepare a lot like a target shooter. UM. But it just gives me confidence in the deerwoods. So I got to talking about that. Um, and uh, one guy mentioned you know, you know, check check the way of the natural spin of your arrow coming out of the shaft um as a bear shaft. So what you do is you mark the top of your arrow, you know, shoot at you know, three ft, and then look at the target and see where that mark on the top the arrows it to the left, to the right. So for mine, my arrow naturally spins without any fletching to the left. I was fletching to the right. A lot of guys flesh to the right. Not saying you need to switch to the left, but what what that does? And and and it's been verified in like super SloMo video, your arrow that wants to go left will actually come out of the bow going left. And then when you got that right uh that like that right helical, it'll go back to the right. Okay, so you're you're actually getting a reverse and and it happens pretty quick. Now, there's been world record world record shooters that shoot with a right fletch, which I'm sure with our build, I think it's more of like a right hand thing or the way your your your string is twisted. But there's been world record set with guys shooting the opposite of that. So what I found was, I was like, Okay, well i'm gonna, I'm gonna. The theory was I'm gonna I was getting some sort of knuckleball. I was trying to minimize that kick. I wanted to get the arrows spinning hard and fast. That makes sense, so more of like I think, like a football spiral, right, a football spiral kind of stabilizes in the wind and it kind of stays tight. And I figured too after talking with Tim, like you know, if I can get that arrow spinning, even if it does kick, you can't get rid of that kick in the cross wind, but it will because it's spinning, it'll it'll go in line quicker. So I wanted to verify it. So I fleshed up, you know, four fletched with the with the left hicle, four fletch with the right helicle, and then I did the same video testing, and so I was shooting multiple arrows down range with the same wind, you know, enough to that I felt it made a difference. But what I found was when I fletched with the left, because my arrow naturally wanted to go there, I wasn't getting that knuckleball down range, so that the kick was left and it's and it brought back in line quicker. So and it was very noticeable on video. Now that might be five ft, it might be ten ft. It's kind of hard to tell, you know, when it's downrange. But it was happening faster because I was getting that that harder spin quicker. It didn't have to reverse. Now, the way that in my mind, the way that translated into hunting is penetration is all about getting the back end of your arrow in line with the front end of your arrow. Right, that's that's what you want. It doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is. If you're if you're coming in and you've got wonky arrow flight and your point hits you know the right, you're knocked to the left. That's gonna eat up your penetration. You know, you can get really good penetration of a light arrow if everything is in line and that that forced the arrow is coming right through the back end. So to me, that was an improvement that I made, you know, and substantial enough that I switched everything to um a four flatch with a left hilticle. And then how did that translate down range? Well, I started and you know, once I did start getting some calm or weather, I started stretching it out, and I noticed that my group started sucking in even more. So I think I was getting less wind drift. Now, um, you know, I I'm real because I've been doing this for a few years. I know what I was shooting last year at the three fletch a little bit higher profile vain. And now you know, I was able to compare those numbers on that sheet with my grouping with the four flets with the left hicle so in it, and it shrunk so again minimal. That's at long distance at twenty thirty yards. You know, the average guy, you know is not gonna see a big difference. I'm not even gonna see a big difference at twenty or thirty yards. But to me, it's an improvement. And and I don't I don't know. I just all year long, like when it's not hunting season, I'm in what can I improve to increase my success in the woods through archery, through staying in shape, through eating healthier, through gear, you know, new gear, switching out gear, gear modifications, anything like that to kind of make my system and my um, make my system more uh, effective and conducive to you know, helping me achieve success. But as far as like the archery thing, like when I look at a lot of my friends and some guys that are just even just acquaintances, there's a couple of things I think stand out like as to why maybe they're not having the success that they want. And one of them, by far, is is just your shooting on animals. And I think it's something that is just you know, everybody knows it's important, but it's just not prioritized high enough. It's just not um And you know, guys are like, well, you know, I could put it, you know in a softball size at thirty yards or baseball size. I mean that to me, that's that's not even close to being as precise as I want to be in the nearwoods. Now, would I be happy with a baseball size at at thirty yards, you know, with a d sixty buck and a cross wind while I'm while I'm you know, angling down out of you know, a tree saddle or something like that. Yeah, But that's why you try to why I try to be so precise in the off season and get that pinpoint accuracy so when I do get those challenging shots. I know I'm gonna be off my forms off. They've got the wind going adrenaline, your muscles are more tense. I know my shot is not gonna be perfect, but because my setup and everything is so precise and the muscle memory that I built all year, my miss is going to be less in an inch or two inches at thirty yards on a big white tail, especially if he's alert. Special if he drops, you know, drops on the shot, that that could result in getting an animal that you wouldn't have. So again, it's just grabbing inches everywhere that you know are gonna kind of help you succeed in the deer wood. So I'm just kind of always looking for those little edges and angles, all right. So first I want to thank our friends at Vortex Optics, as I've been mentioning over the last handful of weeks. I've been using a number of the different products over the last year. Now and right about now it's June, I'm gonna be busting out the spotting scope to start doing some of my long distance observation for white tails out in these bean fields. They're just starting to come up. Those are my favorite things to do last year. Um, there's a bean field across the road from my house and you see lots of deer out there. And so last year I got the Vortex Viper HD spotting scope and I set it up on my front porch and I got a phone scope for it, so you can attach your phone to the spotting scope and then see through it and record through it. And it was just so much fun to have a spotting scope set out there, to be able to see these bucks up close, to get a little bit of cell phone video. Um, just a lot of fun. Not to mention if you've got somewhere you can hunt where you can do this kind of thing, scout from a long distance, you can learn a lot too, especially in the summer, at least getting an inventory and the bucks available. Man high quality spotting scope is a great tool. Had great results of the Viper h D. And then I also used the Razor HD on my Mexican Cuz deer hunt and really enjoyed using that scope as well. So definitely think those are options worth checking out, and you can learn more at Vortex Optics dot com. Yes, you talked about prioritization. This is a conversation that me and Dan had a few weeks ago because we were talking about how it's just like life feels like it's crazy. We both have He's got like seven kids, I've got one, and just seems like you're running around like crazy. There's no time for anything. Business pulling you this way, family pulling you that way. Um, it's really easy to come up with excuses for why you couldn't shoot your boat, or why you didn't get your exercise and for the day, or whatever's on the archery side of things. How do you fitted into your life, Because I know you've got a whole lot going on, you're really busy to how do you make this archery practice a part of your life? How often does that happen? What does that look like in your daily or weekly routine or whatever might be. Yeah, in the wintertime when I really start hitting it hard, Um, I'm I'm kind of I keep things indoors, so I might go down to the archery shop at lunch and shoot. Um. You know, it's usually too cold to shoot outside, like in the morning or anything, but I might go down there at my lunch or right after work or in my basement. I have about fourteen yards I can set up, so I have a bad bag target down there, and I what I do during that time frame as I'm just working on repetition, I'm working on shot execution, um increasing maybe my pin float. You know, I watched the pin on the target and see what it's doing, and then I'll adjust my bow setup or stabilization depending on what that's doing. That's a big one. We can talk about that in a few too. But um So during the those months, I'm shooting, you know, anywhere from four to six days a week, but it might be a very short session or it might be an hour. It just depends. Um, as things get nicer outside, you know, I I have, like I said, I have the bag target in the basement. I got a couple hey bells and a three D target behind the house. Um, and then we go to I go to my buddy, our buddy Tom's out there and Leslie has you know, the big hundred yard grange there. So I mean I'm shooting almost every day. But what I'll do is I'll get up early for work. Um usually that's my gym time, but sometimes I'll I'll get up early, like if it's a you know, say I go to the gym five days a week or something. You know, on those other days, I'll get up early and go outside and shoot before work. You know, it gets light earlier, so I can get it. I can get a good hour and before I need to be to work. So or it might be right after work, or it might be that last thirty minutes a day daylight after you know, every he's in kind of ready for bed and you know it's it's it's and you still got thirty minutes stuff a few yearls. So I try to fit something in almost every day. I'm not perfect. I don't get it every day, but you know I would say I'm five days a week doing something, and I try to mix in you know, a handful of arrows sessions, just try to make everything perfect, five perfect shots with some more longer sessions. And those are the ones where I might be trying to find my marks or it might be testing things against each other. Um. So that's kind of year round. I love archery. I've told you this. I love archery, um nearly as much as hunting. I really do enjoy shooting. Um So, I mean it's not work for me, it's not hard, and I do prioritize it, but it's something that I like. It's almost like a like a stress for lever, like meditation time for me too. I've heard a lot of people say that. I mean, there's a certain level of zen that is required with archery, Like you have to be fully consumed in the moment by it, and it keeps your mind off everything else. I think there's some there's something really mm hmm, that's the right way of described. I don't know if it's powerful or restorative or something, but when you're able to do something that fully consumes you and you're able to lose sight of everything else for half hour or an hour or something, whether it be like archery or another. Thing for me is like fly fishing. When I'm fly fishing and I'm so in the moment of every little thing, all of a sudden four hours past, I'm like whoa, and like you come out of that, like really refreshed in a certain way. So I get that. Um yeah, I totally get that too. With with with archery, it's one of the only times I can sit there and do something and whatever stresses at home or at work or you know, behind me, I just it's like it disappears, you know. But then you know, usually I get a text of someone complaining about something and it's brought right back to reality. But but yeah, that's one of the only things that you know, even when I'm hunting, like, I'll be sitting there and I'll sometimes think about that stuff. But with Archer, I don't. It's funny you mentioned the phone. I've actually just been thinking about this very thing over the last couple of weeks as I've tried to get better with my Archer stuff going on, and I've started to try to take advantage of that like zen quality and allowing myself the space to do that by leaving my phone. So I'm actually purposely leaving my phone in the barn so that I don't get that distraction, because I'm like saying myself, I need this like half hour with nothing else, no thoughts, no nothing. So I leave the phone put on silence i can't hear it, and then I get out back behind the house and do my shooting. And I found more and more like I'm becoming more and more aware of what like a ball and chain my phone is, and how like addicted I am to like checking it for no reason at all, and like I don't know. More and more I'm finding like that I need to just keep it away from me to really have the space and like presence of mind to be the best father. I can be the best shooter, I can be you, or the best right or whatever it is. I'm working on finding more and more that you've got put on silent, put it away for a couple of hours. Um, that's totally not here or there. But well, no, I agree. You know, I find myself to getting a little too attach to that thing sometimes sometimes like it won't even buzz and I'll still look at it. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's almost like a habit. But there's really funny quick story. I was up north a few years ago and we were canoeing on the our kayaking on the Pine River, which is one of Michigan's fastest rivers, and um, you know, I'm pretty experienced kayaker, so one that big a deal. But I opened my dry box. Were coming around this corner there was this big cool dune. I was like, oh man, what a neat picture. So I get my phone out and I snap a picture while this river is moving fast and starts sucking me into this like outside turn, and there's all these like uh pine trees that with like overhanging branches that were like sticking out into the river. And I was like, oh crap, you know, trying to get everything back in the dry box real quick, and I shut it, but I didn't lock it, and I got sucked under the bank there, and all those branches like kind of hit me in the face. And I leaned away, which is not you're supposed to lean towards it. I leaned away, dumped the kayak, lost my oars, lost my phone, lost my camera. Gone. But I was up up north for the next I don't know, four or five days. And it was funny, like I was bummed about the phone, but like it was such a relief, or not a relief. It felt so good not to have the phone, Like I felt completely fine. In fact, I felt better without it. You know, I didn't worry about anything else. I just had fun. I enjoyed, you know, doing what you're doing. I wasn't. I wasn't sour for a minute. Other than that that initial thought of losing my phone. It was like it felt really good. So I've been trying to do that to set my phone down and try to get away from it, and it's a it's a it definitely can suck in. Ye, I'm thinking about doing something like that during hunting season because I've got a weird thing. A lot of people are on their phones other hunt and I do that too. When you get you know, nothing's going on for handful for however long you pull up your phone and look at Instagram or something. Now, I feel a certain obligation to have my phone because a lot of my work is like supposed to be documenting my hunts and stuff. So does the need to have my phone for that. But I think this year I want to try to implement some kind of mandatory like phone away time for like the majority of my hunt. So maybe I'm gonna I haven't quite thought this through, but you know, okay, the first ten minutes when I get there, I can do a bunch of documentation, and then maybe like one other time, in the middle of the hunt, I'll do a bunch of stuff. Otherwise I will put my phone like in a different pocket in my backpack where I can't easily get it. So just like I don't do like the impulse grabbing looks throughout the hunt. I think that would just I think probably lead to a more enjoyable experience and better hunt. So you're not as distracting stuff. But we're way off topic. What I was gonna ask you about the next was she talked about these two different kinds of practice sessions. She talked about like the five perfect arrows, and they talked about the longer hour long. UM, talk to me about what you're actually doing during that time period, because I think a lot of times when we think about getting a practice in, we'll just I don't know, just people just go shoot for however much time they have, and then they go back and they're not really thinking about what they're doing. UM. But a lot of studies have shown and even we had this conversation with Brad staubert Um, the author of a book called Peak Performance, and he had a section within that book where they talked about there's this concept that was popularized UM by Malcolm Gladwell in a book a long time ago called this ten tho hours principal. You've heard about that. Basically, the gist is that research is supposedly shown that it requires something like ten tho hours of practice to become an expert or to become elite in some kind of field. Um. But the key thing there that was often not mentioned within that but was tied to the original study was that it's not just any kind of practice. That's what they called deliberate practice. And it's a really really big difference between just going out there and doing something versus this deliver practice. And how they described deliberate practice was something that was very, um, very thoughtful of what you're doing and why you're doing it, and working towards some specific goal or some specific thing you're trying to work on. So you know, if if you're a basketball player, just going out there and stooding hoops isn't deliberate practice, that's maybe just a little practice. Deliberate practice might be going into and saying, Okay, for the next half hour, I'm going to focus specifically on my free throw form and really focus on getting good follow through and then they hammer that home for a half hour. That kind of stuff. So do you is your practice deliberate in some kind of way? Um? Or what what does that look like for you? Yeah? I call it practicing with practicing with a purpose. So I just um actually did a podcast with a friend not long ago, and and and we were kind of talking about this. But yeah, it for me, it's it's not about it's not a I do enjoy archery, and sometimes I will go out with my buddies, like when we were shooting back out here, I wasn't necessarily working on anything. I was just enjoying company, flinging a fewers. But when I'm on my own, it's almost never like that. It's always I'm always testing or trying to improve on something. Um So, like for instance, when I'm doing my indoor stuff or in the basement, a lot of times I'm working on my shot execution. And we talked about some drills before, you know, and some of the drills that I like to do are you know, drawback close my eyes, you know, real close to the to the bail, so you don't worry about missing. I closed my eyes and I just focus on pulling through the shot. Okay. I try to relax all my muscles, my hand, my shoulders, everything, and then when I'm ready to activate that shot execution, I start pulling straight back. I kind of focus on pulling my elbow straight back, and I'm just trying to ingrain that shot execution so that it's I don't ever have to think about it. It's just automatic. It's not it's not something that um you know, is ever going to cause me an issue in the deer woods. So I even though I've I feel like I've mastered that shot execution, I still work on it because I I've been on the other end of, you know, with target panic and drive by shooting and punching the trigger, and I don't ever want to go back to that um and then or sometimes I'll work on I'll go out on a practice session and I'm working on my pin flow. And what that is is I'm drawing back and I'm focusing and let my breast settle. I'm relaxing my hand, my shoulders, you know, trying to get you know, no muscle involvement. You want at least muscle involvement as possible. And I'll just see what my pin does. Now, is my pin going left to right kind of in a in a figure eight if that, If it's doing that, then I add weight to my stabilizer out front that that minimizes the left to right. Okay. And I got a lot of this information from pro shooters and just talking with guys that I've kind of went down this road. So if your pins doing that, you and add some weight out front. It's it's kind of like, you know, imagine holding a golf club. You hold it by the head and you can whip that that handle real fast. But you hold it by the handle and you try to whip the head where the weight is, it's like harder, right, move slower, so I can slow your your horizontal pin movement down. So maybe your pin is what I have trouble with is my pin likes to drop, so I'll be it'll it'll be there on the bull's eye and drop out and bring it back up and drop out. So on mine with the Matthews bow, and you shoot a Matthews. Matthews bows have a lower grip in the system. They tend to be a little bit top heavy, so uh, they stabilize really well with some some weight below the handle. So I run a rear bar um so if my my pin is going low and dropping out, I add weight to the rear bar and what that does is it helps keep the pin up. So it's just you know, you're adding weight to the back holding your pin up opposite if it's you know, if your pins going up, you know, up out of the target, you would want to add weight to the front or take weight off the bathroom river. So I what I do and what I'm what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get a bow set up where my pin just wants to sit there. It's like perfectly balanced. When I draw back and I settled my pin, I come to anchor and I settle that it just wants to sit there. And that's not to say it's not moving. It is, but it's minimal. Um. And when we were up at UM the Total Archer Challenge, my buddy, uh, he was having something. He shoots the Matthews too. He has a just a straightforward stabilizer, which is fine. You can definitely use that for hunting and shoot really good. I know people that do it. It's just the Matthews bows I think tend to like a little bit of you know, weight below the handle, just the way they're built. Um. But anyway, he was he was complaining that he couldn't hold his pin steady, and we just kind of got to talking about this a little bit. And so you know when I'm trying to improve my pinfall. That's what I'm doing. I'm tinkering with stabilization, and every bow is different. My traverse is a little different than the tracks that I had. You know, the verdicts might be a little different than the hall on thirty two. And well, what I'm what I'm trying to do is just get that pin to kind of sit there. I don't want to fight the pin. I want the pin to sit there. And if it's moving a little bit, that's fine, but I want it right on the spot. You know. If it's going like this and jittery and I'm fighting, and I feel like that's that's the type of pin movement that creates anxiety anticipation. So you can imagine your aiming at a you know, a mule deer buck foam target at the Total Archery challenge out there that's a hundred yards and your pins, you know, dancing all over the place. It's above the back, it's below the body, it's actually coming off the animal. What's that gonna do. It's gonna make you want to you know, time that shot. Okay, all right, it's it's on the deer, it's off the deer. It's on the deer boom. You know, that's how target panic starts. So you'd be much better off even with all that movement if you just let the pin move and you just executed your shot no matter what the pin was doing. In fact, you'd be better off if you just stared at the spot you wanted to hit. It didn't even care where the pin was. If you just stared at that spot and executed that pins always coming back, So you would be much better off. But to take it to the next level with stabilization, I'm trying to minimize that movement. So I couldn't live with the pin dancing all over the target like that, on and off. You know. I wanted to stay in that vital more of like a slow kind of steady movement. But it's it's it's there, it's not moving, so um. You know that's when I you know, that's why I run a rear bar. Now. You know, if you're hunting elk in Colorado, you know, maybe you know, maybe you don't want to carry all that weight. Your shots are gonna be thirty yards and in you're you know, you're you know, thick blowdown country in Colorado or something. You know, maybe you don't want to carry all that weight. You could take it off. I shoot fine without it. I don't shoot as good long distance. Um, I don't shoot as good close distance either, but it's much less noticeable forty yards and in. You know, you might be just just guessing. If I took that rear buar off and I shot a group at thirty yards, you know, they're they're all going to be right there. But when that's on there and that pin is just steady, I mean, they're slapping them busting arrows. So you know, it might be a little overkill for your typical, you know, tree standing guy. But I also shoot a heavier bow better when I'm nervous, when the adrenaline is pumping that little extra weight. Um. I think that's why I gravitate towards the Matthews bows too. They're just they're a little out on the heavier side, but I shoot him better and they kind of resist that movement and that shakiness. And and then when I add that stabilization and that balance helps it even more. So everything is real calm, even when the adrenaline is pumping and I'm you know, at full drawn a big buck. It's moving, and it's definitely moving more than when I'm shooting in the backyard. But it's very manageable. I don't feel that anxiety or anticipation to make it go. I just run my shot execution and the arrow, you know, hits behind the pin. And that's another thing too, Like, you know, I want my bow. I want a bow that I relate with well meaning. Um I like, I love archery, so I love bows. I love you know, you know, getting a bow tech and setting it up, and you know, a lot of times I'll buy bows use more more of the fact that I'm interested in the camp system and the tuning of it and how it shoots. And some of my buddies, you know, have some of these bowls and they've had me work on them and stuff, so I like to do that. I'll sometimes buy them and then I'll sell them, or sometimes i'll you know, uh, you know, sell them to a buddy or trade them or whatever. Um Like. I get some enjoyment out of that, but I want a bow that just that fits me perfect. And then I've went to some other brands and stuff, and it's just like I just you know, when I say I want a bullet hits behind the pin, Like I can be at eight yards and see that pin on the target and it's floating and I the shot breaks and I could just tell, like what the shot broke? My pin was two inches left of the mark and I and I know that's where the arrow is going to be. But I've had some bowls where I do that and it looks like it's right on the bull's eye. When the shot breaks, boom and I go up there, it's like three inches of left, and I'm like, what the hell? But I think you could become more in tune with that. The more you shoot, the more you tinker with this stuff. But you know, I want a bow that hits behind the pin where that pin is at, and I execute the shot, it's it's there. Or let's say I do make a bad shot. Let's say I'm at full draw and I'm like, oh, man, I I kind of rushed through that shot, or you know, or you know whatever, I rushed through it, or I pulled a little harder. You know, I didn't. I was increasing my my back tension and it didn't go when I wanted to. It just it just didn't flow. Well, I want a bowl that I'm still gonna go up there and it's gonna be boom right there in the group, you know. And there's some bows that do that for me and some bows that just don't. And the reason and the way I know that is because I'm I guess I'm so you know, uh specific on like writing down like my group size and my testing and stuff like that. So you know, some of the older bows that I had, like hoits and bo tex and stuff like, I did all a lot of the same stuff, and I'm I'm where I'm at now because it's the best that I found for me, you know. And that might not be the bow for the next guy, um, but you know, that's the I guess. That's kind of the level of the you know, preparation that that I like to do. And it comes back back to another one of those principles of like deliver practices that not only should you have a purpose with your practice, but I also remember reading about the importance of quantifying your success with that practice to finding some way to measure didn't make progress. And you've mentioned over and over different ways you're trying to measure things measure what progress you made, measure the improvement. Measure how well or how are or how worse made you've got in certain things. And I think that has allowed you to find two and keep getting better and better and better. And that's a great That's something I do not do a good job of it all. When it comes to my archery. I'm just out there flaying them and hoping them like do I feel like better about today? I'll come in and wife, Well, how to go like, oh, it's a good day some days like son of a bit. Um. So that's how I measure successes in the first words I say when I come back in the house. But that's probably not the best way to do it. Um. So you're going out there with a purpose. You're each time you're going out there from these sessions, you're thinking about something you're trying to improve. Usually, is there like a typical time frame that you like, is there something? Is it just whatever time you have or do you feel like there's value to making sure that a couple of times a week you do spend an hour because that really builds up your muscle member or something, or is there value? And yeah, I don't know anything like that that you think about or or not. I feel like, you know, those longer those longer sessions are important. I feel like the five errol thing, you know, make you go out there and try to make five perfect shots. That's more of like a you're just checking the status right, You're making sure like okay, boom, I got it. You know my form is good. I'm gonna put all the pressure on this first arrow. This is my one shot at you know that big white tail, you know whatever range, and you you know, you put it right where it needs to be. That's a good feeling. You like, you're you don't need ten shots to warm up. You're you're there, You're ready. So I use those short ones more of like a just a check, you know, like a system check. Those longer sessions, whether it's half hour, an hour or two hours or whatever, those are when I try to work on things and you know a couple of things we already talked about, or it might be just you know, getting your site marks. Um. You know, some of those longer distance things, it does take some time to kind of get accurate site marks. And you know, I'm not I'm not shooting a hundred yards because I want to shoot at a deer at a hundred yards. It's just for me that longer practice. When I start shooting at that distance, like my hundred yard groups start looking like my old forty yard groups, you know, after a while, And anybody could do that going through you know, some of the same set up, you know, processes that that guys do. But um, it just gives me so much more confidence at those shots that we take at deer in the deerwoods, you know what I mean. It feels they feel like gimmes, you know, And they didn't used to feel like gimmes to me. They used to feel like this could go either way, you know, and it really uh and it reflected like that. I think I was lucky. I did have some a few seasons where I was struggling with target panics so bad, and I did lost multiple animals, but I it came on quick, and I I realized it quick, and I did what I needed to do to fix it quick. So I had a short window where it was causing me big problems. Now the beginning of you know, my archery hunting, I wasn't executing the shot the way I am now, and I wasn't making perfect shots by any means all the time, but I didn't have target panic. I was making kill you know, kill shots. Maybe not perfect, but um, you know it wasn't. It wasn't at the level there are the comfortable the way I feel comfortable with it now, But there was that that short window where what I was what I was really struggling. And I think a lot of guys that kind of end up going this route went through a similar period. You talked to a lot of the pro archers. Look, a lot of them went through a period like this. They love archery, they love it so much, and they start going to yards or whatever, and their pins dancing all over the place, and they start punching the trigger because their anxiety levels high. So a lot of you've talked to a lot of these guys, they have the same sort of story, you know. So, so you mentioned this way one way to improve your confidence and just everything at actual shooting ranges in the field is to stretch it out in practice. So take these really long shots, get good at long shots when you're in your practice sessions, so that thirty and forty yards feels like a gimme. Actually, how they're in the field. Um, are there any other ways you put stress on your situation and practice? So this is something we talked about with David Wise, is he's always trying to find ways to stress his system to practice. I think he called like practicing at the fringes. So even as like a half pipe skier, he would try to practice with the worst case scenarios so that when he was actually out there, you know, uh in you know, in the big stage, on the big stage, no possible scenario could surprise him. So do you do anything? I know something you know people talk about within our world is trying to shoot at different positions, stuff like that. Um, anything along those lines you do to change things up in your practice. Yeah. Absolutely, So all this stuff that I've been talking about so far is pretty much in the backyard calm, wind, perfect, you know, your feet on even ground. You know what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to narrow down my setup to get the most accurate for giving um set up that I can get that I'm most confident. Yeah. Once I once i know I'm gonna roll with something, then I kind of switched modes to like okay, now it's time to prepare for hunting, you know. And that's when I mean, when's the last time you shot a deer standing on flat ground, you know, with no wind from ground level like never? So um, so that's when I start to do some other things like so for instance, like you know, when I went on my antelope, I knew my shots were gonna be the animal upon a few years ago. I knew my shots are gonna be long, and I knew I was probably gonna be on my knees. So I practiced a ton on my knees at you know, a hundred yards, hundred ten yards, you know, hoping that that seventy yard eight yard shot that I was probably gonna get was gonna be I feel easy, you know. So that's how I prepared for that one. Or you know, um a lot of times, you know, I switched nearly all my shooting out of you know, especially when I started using the saddle more or even even when I used the tree stand a lot more angled shots um coming out of trees, you know. Uh, just to I practice a ton on flat ground. Now it's time to switch modes and start to practice real life shooting scenarios. Because I can't shoot the same groups I can at eight um you know standing on a tree stand angled down that I can on flat ground, you know, with no winds. So now it's trying to starting to kind of um work on that stuff so that you know what you can get away with. You know where your you know extremes are where, you know where where you should kind of keep your comfort level. Um, if I am shooting out back on flat ground, like a lot of times, I'll have like these old um tree stumps are logs that we cut, and I'll put one foot up, you know, and shoot like that. So you know when I when I shot um my mule deer last year, that's how well I was. Like my my back foot was you know, like two ft higher than my bottom foot. You know. So just things like that kind of that kind of alter your balance and it you know, when your form is is really solid and ingrained, you know what you doesn't really matter what your lower bodies doing. You try to keep from the waist up that same. That's my goal is trying to keep that waiste up form the same no matter what I'm doing. And there's some severe things, severe angles from a tree stand, like straight down. Um, you know, there's definitely certain situations where that's that's going to be compromised some So you have to practice those shots, those really awkward you know, those those really tough shots. You do have to practice them to see where your arrow hits and how you perform, and um, those are really important. So what you talked about summer routine. As I get towards when I say, you know, I want to kind of peek at the you know, right at the beginning of hunting season, that's when I start really working on that stuff, this stuff testing arrows, you know, ingraining, shot execution, all that stuff is gone. We've we've found something we're gonna run with. So now we're switching to hunting mode. And what time of years that like, are you saying the last couple of weeks before hunting season, the last month, last two months? Like, when do you really like to be focusing on that part of your UM? I would like I would want to be doing that kind of stuff at least a month before my first hunt, you know, so you know, just really kind of switch gears. That's when I switched to broadheads. I'm shooting all my my my shots with broadheads. All your shots are broadheads the last month. Yeah, I mean I might, I might throw if you know, like let's I'm not gonna like, you know, burn through packs and packs of them. But yeah, i'll shoot. You know, I might shoot three broadheads and one field point or something like that in a group or something like that, you know what I mean. But the majority, I want to make sure those broadheads or whatever you know, is working well with my system, that they're flying well. I want to know what they're doing in the wind, or they drifted more than my field points, because that's something you need to know, especially if you're gonna be hunting out west. You know, it's not uncommon to have a sixty eight yard shot. It's it's just not And you know, if you want to increase your chance of success, you know, you can prepare for you know, that type of range and be you know, really deadly. But you those are things you need to know. You put a broad out of the front, you're gonna get more, you know, more arrow drifts. So another thing that the total archer challenge to like, when you shoot a lot, you you start to see and you understand, like what your trajectory is doing right. So there were some shots where you know, we see you know, a betted MULEI but you know, maybe sixty yards out there's a tree that's covering the vitals, like there was a there's one in particular, and thinking there was a bent over tree, it was right where you want to hit your arrow. So what I did was I ranged the tree and then I ranged the mule's head. The mule it was like an eighty seven. So we're all looking at like, oh man, like where do we hit? We can like you could aim at the butt and just hit foam. That would be the safe play. But so because I because I could range the sixty and then I could range you know, the seven on the mulee. I knew just from shooting so much that I know my trajectory is going to miss that. So someone that doesn't shoot as much might not they might not take that shot, you know, you know, or whatever. But I knew, and you know a lot of the guys are with our our experience shooters too, and they did the same thing. I would put the pin right on the tree and just sailed right over, dropped right into the vibe. So those are things that you know little things that you know may or may not ever happen in the woods. But I guess, like you were saying, you know, practice and the fringes. I like to prepare for all possibilities, you know what I mean. Like if if there's if there's a a bowl of a lifetime in Colorado and there's a little tiny hole to squeeze it through, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna wish it through. I want to know that it's going to go through there. But if I know it will if I execute a good shot, I want to have the confidence to take that shot, you know what I mean. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna roll the dice and be like, I'm not sure if that's the case, I'm not taking the shot. But if it's possible, I want to have the confidence to do it. Man, it seems like it seems like the way to do that is to have the kind of system in place. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. It works for me, um And like I said, the system has morphed. It might be different five years from now if we come again, but it works for me. And I'm not saying this is what people should do you know, I'm definitely not saying that. It's just what I do. You know what I mean Now, does this level of attention to minutia and preparing for the fringes and everything that you apply with your archery preparation in the summer, does that translate to other things you're doing in the field preparing? So yeah, answer me that, Yeah totally. So, you know, I take the same I feel like I take the same type of thought process and preparing for the hunting season um as I do with with this, the same same type of system. Um. You know, I'm always trying to find that next book. I'm always trying to fine tune setups. I'm always trying to find new setups in new areas, scout new ground, try you know. Basically, the way I always explain it is I try to over prepare so the chances of my of me not succeeding or almost zero, Like I would have to be really unlucky to not have some success. So I try to over prepare, do things. You know, to me, it's not to me, it's not over preparing or overboard, It's just what I do. But when I when I kind of look at you know, other people. UM. And I'm sure there's people out there that prepare more than me. UM. But it's just what I do, and to me, it just it's just feels what I need to do. It's what I enjoy to do or enjoy enjoy doing, so I make the time to do it. Now. It's a lot less than what it used to be so um, you know, before before kids and everything. But I still prioritize that time. I try to do it in bursts, like I spent a lot of time as soon as that snow melted. Um, I spent a lot of time. I got a lot of scout again. Then UM, I went down to Iowa in preparation for this hunt. UM scouted two or three new pieces of public all the places that uh, you know, all the places we were already familiar with, you know, got all the trees marked, all the access we I mean, we put on so many miles in just a couple of days in preparation for this hunt coming up. You know, I'm going during the rut. I want to see the rut sign so I wouldn't feel like I did what I needed to do if I just showed up. I know I could do that and still kill something. But it's just I, like I said, I want to be prepared and that's a big hunt to me. It's important. I've waited years for the tag. It's expensive. I want to do what I need to do that will, you know, increase my chance to success the most. So so when the was a scouting I know that you take scouting really seriously. Um, you constantly are helping me scout more simply better. Fact, I know you're out there scouting and I'm not. It might feel bad about it, so it gets me off my ascid in the woods. Um, but you mentioned that snow melt time period. Right snow comes off, it's probably the very best time year to be able to see signed from the year before and and nothing's greened up yet. But now it's June when we're talking right now, What if someone just now is like realizing, oh crap, I really do need to get out and do some scouting. What is there anything they can accomplish during the summer? What are you doing still now during the summer everything is green and full. What can you actually accomplish now? This is because you know, with you know, a growing family and all that stuff. When I said, I had to cut some things down. Basically, what I did was where I used to scout. You know, if you if you saw me twenty two, you know, thirty two those years, I was literally I was in the woods trying to learn about deer five or six days a week. I would literally go right from work and scout, and I would do that just about until it was dark. And it's just I was completely enthralled in it. It's all I wanted to do. UM. And you know, I think that kind of created a basis for a lot of um. You know what I do now and what I've learned. But now that I'm a little busier, UM, I have I kind of set specific time frames. So you know, in the winter months, when there's snow, like I said, I focus on the indoor shooting stuff. I will scout some then too, because I do like to see like winter habitat, what the deer doing. I look for trails in the snow. Okay like that, you know this could potentially be um uh you know, uh, if we get snow during that late season, this skipped actually be a good area. I'm looking for tracks of deer, um, mature buck, tracks of maybe deer that survived, um, that sort of thing. So then, like I said that, when that snow melt, that's when I get in a bunch of my scouting and I try to scout every area that I do hunt and throwing a handful of new potential areas. And I'm just trying to that's more I'm looking for a rut sign. I am looking for like buck beds and that sort of thing too. I'm always looking for that. But um, just everything is so visible then, so then get out of that, you get starting. Um, like you know, May June July. You know, I kind of focused. I focus more on the turkey side of things. I think during that time. Um, you know, I don't I don't turkey hunt a whole terribly lot, but I really do enjoy it. Um. So I think right now, this timeframe, right now, that kind of May June July, I probably make another switch. But at that time I probably scout well, I know, I scout quite a bit less. And that's you know, I kind of focus that time more with family, do a little turkey hunting with the kids. Um, you know, do definitely get my archery in there, but it's kind of a slower time for me. And it's a slower time because I'm choosing it to be slower. I don't. I still think there's plenty of information to find out there. Um, but for me personally, it's like, Okay, I can't do this all year round like I used to. I need to pick windows, so I focus on the windows where I think it's most beneficial to me and my style. So then, you know, then you get into that July August, that's when I start looking more for specific books that made it, you know, targets go after, and that's when I start kind of planning my fall. Like, Okay, I got you know, there's a you know, a new big buck over here. He looks at least three and a half. You know, I don't know who this there is, you know, and I try to keep tabs on him. You know what you're actually doing? Uh like keeping tabs? Yeah? So like how July August you're you're starting to find these deer that you're actually gonna hunt and playing your fall. How specifically is that happening? Is that that you are going and checking cameras once a week or something and removing cameras from property property or do you go and sit on these properties at night and watch fields or walk me through that first step finding these bucks here in a hunt that year in August, I guess I'd say all above. I do. UM. I do a lot of glassing driving around, UM A lot of times. You know, a lot of the areas of hunt. It's not something you necessarily see from the road. So I will get out and glass that, you know, that last hour. UM. And usually you know, I'm focusing on areas that I already know something's there. I'm just trying to see what he is. You know, did he make it? Is he there? What what did he turn into? And I'm trying to narrow down those, you know, those few bucks that I'm gonna focus on. UM. I definitely do run cameras, especially here. I don't do it much out of state. Out of state. I focus or on just like you know, kind of boots on the ground scouting. And I do still like that that aspect of like not knowing what's there. You see, you know, a mature bucks in here, but I have no idea what he is. I like that and I missed that sometimes in Michigan I get very few surprises. You know what I mean, because I do. I do scout things pretty thoroughly. I mean, every once in a while, you know, you'll get like a three year old or something, or a four year old pop up, but you're just like, oh, where is it? You know who is that, dear? But um, I know my areas so well that that doesn't happen as much around home. But um, yeah, I'll check camera, I'll put cameras out, Um, I'll check them. But during the summer months, I change things to uh mainly it might be for financial reasons, gas batteries in the camera or whatever. I usually do one or maybe two checks before the season. That's it. So um, it's I'm not I'm not one of those guys. I need to know what he's doing in July even August, Like I want to know, like I'll pull those cameras and I'll look through those pictures and be like, oh, yeah, man, that those are sweet. There he is there. But I want to know worries at those last few days of September, you know, and that's when I there's a lot of times where I won't even touch camera til then. Um, and I don't necessarily have it exactly where I'm hunting, like the the actual location I'll have in a spot where I feel like I can still get pictures. Um, but I'm not ruining where my actual hunting is. You know, my my hunting location, and those spots are usually set up and prepared ahead of time because I know the areas, I know where the buckbeds are, the ones I found, I know the traveler. Else, I have a feeling that you know, the buck that's bedded in this this bed, you know, we'll we'll feel safe traveling you know this distance through this this bit of cover, just because he can stay hidden. So it's it's all those little pieces that I'm trying to put together in my mind and through history of the of the of the area, of the property, or history of what that deer has done in the past. It's all those little pieces that I'm putting together. So the locations are almost always ready and prepared ahead of time. UM. I won't say always, because I do a lot of running gun into, but a lot of those spots I'm familiar with. You know, if a buck shows up there, you know a lot of times they do, and they bed in the same areas that you know they have before, or our mature deer have before and use those same type of areas, and you know I can if I hunt it right and if I wait for the right timing. Um, you know, if if a deer shows up on one of those properties, I can usually get a crack out of them. So let's rewind a little bit though, So you're running cameras, but you're not checking them till like September typically, right. Yeah, it's very I've I've really toned that back. I used to be like the you know, once every two weeks, three weeks, even once a month guy, and now I'm not. So basically, it's just to determine do I have the buck here that I want to hunt? So where do you You You mentioned how you're locating cameras in places that you can still get pictures, but it's not gonna mess up where you're gonna hunt. What are those types of locations you put a camera in the summer to get that inventory? Yeah, Um, in the summertime, you know, I'm looking for you know, apple trees, you know, field edges of food sources where they do feed in the summer. So a lot of times I like around bean fields, Um, you know, I have a typically have a knowledge of like where the mature dear bed you know, so like let's say they're bedding you know, down this ravine and back in this this low marshy area and they're coming up the travel the typical travel is up through the ravine and then they come into this giant destination bean field. So I'll put my camera there a lot of times. If there's a um a licking branch or something something that kind of just sweetens the spot, I'll put it there because deer work licking branches like all year long, and it's not gonna be as You're not gonna get the as good a pictures that you are, like you know, in in mid late October, but you're still gonna it concentrates deer and you're gonna get you know, they're they're more in uh you know, more in in in groups that time of year. So a lot of times I'll get pictures there. I focus a lot on water water crossings, um it. You know, it just kind of depends, you know, a lot of times I'll put them to like if if there's a travel area, um, you know, to a food source, I'll try I try to put it in there on you know a few of the main trails, but knowing that you know, the cameras here but and the beds over here. But I'm gonna be hunting much closer to the bed, you know, because the maturitier is not going to be you know, during hunting season, is not gonna be getting to where that cameras in daylight, I don't. I don't because of my the way I set up cameras. I don't get very many daylight pictures. And I do that on purpose. I don't really want my cameras to be getting daylight pictures if I if they are, I should be hunting there, you know, and I don't. I don't really like my cameras where I hunt, and I know some guys do like some I I think I watched a video of um, you know, Jeff Sturgis saying that he likes the camera we're in all of his tree standing locations. And don't get me wrong, like i I'll still just like everything else, I'm always trying new things. I'm always testing new things, so you know, there are times where I'll try that, but for the most part, it just kind of goes against my instinct as a hunter, I don't really want intrusion where um, you know, where I think I'm gonna get the shot I might The scenario where I will say that I do put them where I might hunt would be more than like a travel corridor, like a rut travel corridor during the rut, I think you can get away with more um you know, it's much more sensitive when you're hunting a book kind of more in his secure areas, betting area, you know, where he feels safe. Those are the areas I don't want cameras, And that's sort of that seems to be where a lot of my kills happen. But during the rut, like in a travel route, yeah, I would have one there for sure. And then a lot of times I'll put cameras in those spots and just let them soak all year and just keep it as like a learning tool. Is this the spot I want to invest some time in? Oh man, look, I'm going through these pictures. Late October was on fire. I do that a lot with my cameras. So it's more for information for years to come, you know, or you can eliminate that area, you know, off or whatever. So I won't say I don't. I never put them where I hunt, But those sensitive areas where I seem to kill my oldest year, I don't put cameras there. So, speaking of going in or staying out of these sensitive areas, what's your cut off period? Like when when does off season or maybe maybe it doesn't, maybe you've never had this. I don't know. I feel like everyone has a different time period when they say, Okay, I shouldn't be going back into the cover anymore. I shouldn't be hanging stands anymore, I shouldn't be fiddling with cameras anymore, because it's time to let it really lay, because hunting season is about to company. For me, it's always been at a minimum the end of August, like so, once summer's done, September is always like leave it untouched and then I'm super duper careful the whole rest of the year. But late August, you know, lots of times I'm finalizing food plots are run around last minute, trying to hang my last dand or something. Um when is that for you? Well, the the sensitive areas I'm talking about, you know, the when I'm looking for you know, like betting areas and areas where I'm gon try to ambush a book that's close to his like security zone, his secure area. I mean, that's all that's all done, like like in early spring, you know, when the snow mills. I try to get that all done, um, and then I don't really go back to those spots, Like I've tried to find all that information in a month period with a ton of scouting. I try to get that all squared away, and then and then I want to stay out of there. Um. The other spots, like you know, if I'm looking more towards like a rut, you know, a rut type setup or something like that, those are the ones that now tend to seem like, you know, we're busy. They kind of you know, you want to get them done in the spring, but now it's like the beginning of summer and they're still not done, you know, or there's still more spots to to to prep or to to scout out. Those are the spots that I don't mind pushing back a little bit because November is still a long ways away and it's not as sensitive as an area you know. Um, But even with those, you know, I'd say i'd say August. Yeah, by August, I don't want to be in there, you know, I just I I feel like I feel like during you know, one I don't know, I get when you get that late in the game. I feel like every time you go in, I just cringe, you know, it's I get that feeling. I'm just I'm just ruining my chances here. I'm decreasing my chances. So I like to hang back as much as possible and get things done, you know, quick and early. Um if I can, but you know, you just you can only do what you can do. Everybody's super busy, and I'm just like the rest of the guys. I find myself, you know, late summer, like oh crap, you know, trying to get these But I try to prioritize those sensitive areas, those areas where I get, you know, of my kills first early in the spring, get those done. Those are the more it's important. Those are what where those are my bread and butter, these other areas, because they're the they're gonna pick up later late October, you know, first two weeks in November. Those are the ones that I'm okay with getting to now or in July or early August, and we need to take one more break here to thank our partners at White Tailed Properties. And we're just checking out their YouTube channel here recently one of the many resources they have in addition to lots on their website at white Tail Properties dot com, but through YouTube channel, it's got this land beat video series and the most recent video is all about it. Well. It's really quick example about how to develop a bow hunting food plot and showing you a specific scenario where this land specialist is trying to map out how he's going to break up a larger field into two smaller sections using a food plot screen, which is something that I've really really recommended, something I use a lot. I just spent a whole lot of time plantings and food plat screens myself. So check out this video. It's on the White Properties YouTube channel. The video is called bow Hunting Food Plots, Get Deer within bow Range. Quick one helpful to see it and I think you can use it as an example of how you might be able to do this in your own area and how much, um, how is your prep changing at all with when I know you you've kind of use saddles throughout different periods of your hunting time period. But I think you're maybe using saddles a little more now than you were for sounds. Seems like you went a little bit of like you're using a bunch, and you went back to stands a little bit. Now maybe you're back to using saddles a little bit. That's kind of changing how I think about how I'm going to set up some of my farms, because I'm not gonna be hanging stands now. So I'm trying to say, Okay, I just want to prep a handful of trees. Want to prep a bunch of trees. Um, what does your preparation look like when you're considering a saddle? Yeah, Um, not much different, to be honest with you, because I was never the type that like hung stands and left them, um every area, every every area I hunt. Uh, other people hunt, so there's the competition out there. So I was always the guy, you know, bring my stand in, take my stand out, um with the saddle. So I'm kind of the same way. I do prep um a lot of spots. But what I noticed now is like is like as I get older and I guess my my style and everything kind of gets more dialed in. I prepare less. I prepare the spots where I really feel like I can kill something, not like, oh this might be a good spot, or oh I might be able to call a deer in here, or or if a buck you know, does come through here, I want to have a tree ready to go. A lot of those ones I don't do anymore. And if if those things pop up, I just do like a run and gun type set up. But I make sure, like you know, those those spots you come across that you're just like, oh man, this this is where the big bucks living. Okay, Now where can I hunt him? Where can I get in? Okay, I'm gonna be accessing here. You know, I'm gonna need this type of wind, Like how close can I get to this without him busting me? You know, he can't smell me, he can't see me, he can't hear me. How close can I get to this spot without without any of those things happening? So then what I do is, you know, I'll get in there, and I'll look out and I'll listen, and I'll try to figure out where that is. It might be if it's a little more rolling terrain. You know, I might be able to get just over a rise or something. If it's real thick, I might be able to get in you know, even closer. Um, it just depends, and then I gotta take into account how how noisy is it? You know this spot I can clear out a little bit, or is this spot that I'm you know, not allowed to do that? So all that, all that stuff comes into account. But I spent a lot of time in those locations because I want it to be perfect, you know what I mean. So you know those ones, Um, those those types of scenarios in that type of situation, those are the ones that I take the most time with. I prioritize and I get those done and out of the way. And are you actually getting to do you trim out shooting lanes and stuff on those spots? Like do you actually you have your perfect tree picked out? Do you put pigs in it or anything else? Or is it Hey, I'm still gonna bring my saddle and sticks in or something. I'll climb up. But what other prep do you do that point other than figuring it all out in your head? Yeah? Um, so if it's like uh, you know, if it's spot that I've been to for you know, an area I've been to for years and I kind of know that, you know, know the area, and I already have my spots kind of picked out that stuff. You know, it might be a scenario where I just kind of go in, climb up the tree and trim. Um. There's not too many spots anymore where I like leave stuff up like sticks or pegs or anything like that. I just just hasn't worked out for me. So most of that stuff I like to kind of be invisible. Um, those those spots where I share with other hunters, it's just like if I feel like if they know where you're at, they just tend to gravitate towards it. So I try to leave no trace. Um. But yeah, I'll go in those and I'll trim those spots. Um. You know, some of the spots, like when we were you know, when we're hunting like public land or something, we're not really allowed to do much trimming. So you know, those scenarios, you just try to work with the best you can. But a lot of times, yeah, if it's if it's a sensitive area though, if it's close to a um you know, in a like a secure zone where that buck I think like he'll feel safe. I'll try to do as minimal trimming as possible. I don't want to make it look like I was there, just you know, a few holes. Hopefully I don't have to do too much. Hopefully it's not so thick, like you can't get an arrow. If it's so thick you can't get an arrows anywhere, then I'm I'm getting on the edge of it. You know, I'm not going to go in there and create all these freaking highways of shooting lanes in there. It's just not it's not gonna work out for you. But I'll get on the edge of it. And usually if it's that thick, the deer will feel comfortable moving through that and you might be able to catch him on the edge. That's a lot of times I run into that scenario where it is so thick in there, it's like, man, how like, yeah, you could get up there, but you get up you know, fifteen feet, you look down, you can't get an arrow in anywhere. And that's where a lot of times where those big bucks like to be. So if you see that, I don't try to make that situation work for me, I get on the edge, the edge where I feel like he'll he'll make that mistake, and that you know that one day, when the timing and everything's perfect, he'll make it to that edge, you know. So that's that's kind of what I bank on. But then there's those other scenarios where you know, it's just the way you can come in on like on a low creek or something, and you got the water running and it's creating some noise or some windy conditions or something, or wet conditions, and you can get like I can almost get within bow range of these bucks. Sometimes it just depends on the on the terrain in the situation. There's some spots like that I've been in that you if you can get to that tree and you can get up perfectly, you can get up and you can actually like see the deer, you know, and that that doesn't happen often, but or you know that the that beds fifty yards away and it's like, oh man, he's not there, he's not there. I guess he's not in there tonight, and it's like ten minutes of shooting light, you see him stand up, stretch. I mean, that's such a cool feeling. UM. So it just it just depends everything. You know, Every scenario is a little different. So I spend a lot of time in those those areas, UM, and I really try to think about all of that. How is this going to play out? How could this play out? Where are the areas that I you know, if I if I come in this way, could he could he see me there? Like I'm down in the bed, like kneeling down? Could he see me there? You know? Then then I'll pick out an access and I might walk it, and I'll be like, is this noisy? Can I get away with this? Am I gonna need windy conditions to do this? Am I gonna need wet? There's spots where that I need wet or windy to get in, and and and I saved those spots. So if I can get thirty or forty of you know, those types of locations through you know, sufficient preparation and sufficient you know hard work, you know, trying to find those spots over years and years, and just keep building on those like if you if you, if you prepare to that level, how can you not have success? You know what I mean? How can I? How can I not? That's why I look at it. I'm not going to succeed on everyone. You know, that that bucks, that buck is not gonna show up. This buck's gonna get killed by another hunter. This buck is gonna come out, you know and get down wind to me somehow and win me. The wind's gonna switch and get me, you know, on this deer, but this one I'm gonna get, you know. And and then I feel like, you know, the more you kind of feel confident in in your system and the more experience you have all those like things that can go wrong and those scenarios that can go wrong, you almost you know, you can almost forstes see them and you can really minimize them, you know, Like so I can I can get into an area I can see because I've made the mistake before. I can see like this isn't gonna work. I need to back up. I need to. I need to I need to be out a little bit, or I need to be a little bit closer, like he's not gonna get to me here, or the wind's gonna swirl here. This is the perfect Just like you know that big that Big nine I killed a couple of years ago. I haunted that deer for two years in the area where all the signs said I needed to be. I had pictures of them there. Um there, there was several scrapes. It was. It was a nice open area with like tall tall weeds with oak trees as this this open area inside of a woods along a river bottom and in the surrounding cover was real thick. So it's just like, oh man, he's gonna feel great coming into this opening. It's perfect. But the wind sworld like crazy, and I hunted it and I got up there. I'm throwing milk weed and it's like the wind, you know, the wind's coming out of the north, but my wood milkweeds flying south, Like why maybe it's just switching today. So then I come back again. Then you know, a couple of weeks later or whatever, it's coming on the north boom, it's going back south. Why is it doing that? Like is that? What's wrong with this weather man? You know what I mean? Like this I have to say in north wind, it's not it took it took me a while. Like it's swirling here. I'm getting I'm getting a swirling effect and it's coming into that opening, shooting down and blowing right back. So what did I have to do? I had. I figured that out through trial and error, and I backed off a hundred yards and I ended up killing the deer the first set. And there was there was at least two times where that deer was coming in um on previous years to that opening, and he winded me. And I'm sure of it because it came from the same direction. I never did lay eyes on him, but he came from that same direction out of the bed where I killed him, and he came in and it was one of those you know when you hear a like a big giant deer like snort, it's like it's a different sound. And then you hear it bound away and it's like, okay, that's not a light deer, a single deer, heavy thump thump. Yeah, gosh, it happened to me twice, so and uh, you know, it was just that little adjustment. So now you know. Now I know if I if I find an opening in the woods like that, that looks awesome. I need to get up and test what the winds doing, because I've already made a mistake. I hunted a deer two years in a situation like this and it doesn't work. You know, you gotta find Sometimes it's you find that perfect tree and it's like, man, this is the tree and you're you know, you're checking and seeing what the wind's doing. It's just not working for you, and you might have to pick that that other tree that's not so perfect. But the winds perfect form, you know, so so what so so. A lot of what you're discussing there, though, comes from having year's worth of experience because you've scouted these places so extensively, you've hunted them, you know, some spots. What if I threw you into this scenario which a lot of a lot of people have been to find themselves in it sometime or another. Let's say it's you lost your previous places to hunt. You have no other places to hunt. You lost permission everywhere. There's no public land where you live. Let's say, um, but you get permission on a new farm. It's only spy your and hunt. Let's say, at least for the sake of this discussion, you get permission on a new eighty acre piece. You get permission on August one. What do you do if you have to start all of your preparation on August one for this property, and and and and walk me through your mindset, walk me through what you're doing from the moment, like you get permission, like your your house, you out the permission. Let's say you talked him before and then they give you a call and say yep, okay, yeah, you got it. Now you know, Okay, now for the next thirty days whatever I gotta get ready. Talking me through from the very beginning of what you're thinking about, what you're looking at, how you're breaking things down to then what you actually do once you get into the field, and and what you're doing for the next couple of weeks. Okay. Well, it's funny because, uh, in two thousand, two thousand and one, I had the same exact scenario, um in a farm not far from here. Actually I got permission, um it was it might even have been it was even later than that. It was like September, like mid September, and so I had gotten permission immediately got out my Uh you know, back then, we didn't have on X. It was just you know, like like paper map. I think I got down from like the city building in Jackson, but I looked at the aerial I just kind of got the lay of the land. And from from very early on, like I, I have always gravitated towards like I think early on, like I I got on nice deer because I always went towards the thickest stuff. It was just like, Okay, I saw a nice deer come out of the thickest stuff, Like I just it just made sense to me. Early so, you know, there was a um, a river bottom coming through this area, and then there was like these little points kind of coming off and this this tall mark marsh grass and these like these these lone trees kind of like along the river bottom, and it's like that was the thickest area. Everything else it was like open hardwoods or field. So it's just gravitated towards that spot. So I went out there just scouting, and I walked into the field that was butted up. Right next to that was standing corn, and I walked around the I was just walking the perimeter of the corn. And then right as I was approaching that thick area right off the corn field where there was all that marsh grass, and then you go a little further and there's all these lone trees along this river bottom like in thick tall marsh grass. There's there's a couple of sets of big buck tracks coming out of that stuff into the standing corner, and I'm like, whoa. You know, so I didn't even bother walking into that stuff, like it's seasons coming up in like a week, right, a week or two. So what I did is I backed up and I found the closest tree that I could get to where they were entering that field. And you know, you know, back then, it was just like again like I always felt, thick cover to thick cover is good standing corners thick cover, Like I felt like, you know, they're coming through here. I feel like I got a chance. You know, there's really no other option once you get off the corn field, you know, you have to get like a ground set up or something. So I found the closest tree that I could get to that transition, and I sat on October one, and I had two at that time, the two biggest Michigan Bucks I've ever seen come out together in a boxer group. I had my I had my choice between the two, both of them over a hundred fifty in yep and where exactly so uh well, it was funny is where Uh, it was where your buddy Andy helped me with the dogs. That yep, that that other books. So um but anyway, UM, so the two bucks come out. One was substantially wider than the others, like nineteen inches wide. They're both kind of similar caliber. I end up shooting the wider one. But going back to I guess, going back to your question, if I got permission in August, I feel like, August, you know, if I wanted to really learn the property, I might do like a quick burn through everything. August, I think I still think you're okay if you're If it was you know, September, September, I think I would play it different. But August, I feel like that's, you know, early enough that I would probably quickly get a quick burn through. I definitely look at the maps and pick out like, Okay, this looks like it could be good bedding here. Okay, you know we've got a water away here, there's some water, there's a nice little pond or you know, a drinking hole here. Um, I might do a quick burn through the thickest you know areas, just the farm in general, and get a quick and so when you stay, do a burn through of it. So you mentioned you're gonna look at the maps, find a couple of like interesting areas, and then when you do this quote unquote burn through. Are you saying you're literally gonna like grid it or you just gonna go hit like these four or five spots of most interest and like I'm actually interested in, Like how much do you actually walk? Yeah, I would h how focuses that walk? Yeah, I would depend on the farm, but I would I would focus on the areas of interest. I'm not gonna grid the whole farm necessarily. Um. You know, say your typical Michigan farm. You know it's gonna have some field, probably some woods, maybe some river bottom or marsh or whatever. I'm gonna focus on the areas that I know are gonna typically hold mature deer and and and most guys nowadays, I think, can look at a map and kind of pinpoint some of those areas. Um. But for me, even though I'm I'm decent at doing that with a map, I'm I'm much better getting boots on the ground because when I get boots on the ground, there's just things you miss. You know, you can get into a good area from a map, but once I get on the ground. That's when I really kind of see it, and I could see how everything kind of plays out in my mind and what the deer doing and what what's the caliber deer in here? Does this? Does this place hold a deer that can get to four or five years old? You know that that that whole the whole picture is in front of you. And then you know, depending on you know, what you see, just kind of you can figure things out. But I wouldn't be afraid if it's an August kind of doing a speed scout, I guess, like through that area, just verifying some some deer sign. Okay, yeah, this does look thick, this looks good. Um, you know, maybe even you know, if I, if I it was one of those situations where I could like hang stands or something. I might throw up some stands or or whatever. Talking about your average guy that you know might be in this situation, um, and just try to get it all done like boom really quick and then get out. It's not something I would do like, oh, okay, let's go scalt it sweet. Let's come back next weekend and hang our ladder stands. Cool next week, let's come out and you know put our mineral licks in awesome, you know what I mean, Like that's that's what's gonna burn you. But um, especially like that time of year, like um bucks are much more laid back, and they're much more laid back when they're in the group too. So you you you can get away with you know, going through summer. Typically there's a lot of activity anyway, um, you know, with humans. So I wouldn't be terrified to do that. It wouldn't be my favorite thing. I'd still get that cringe, but I would do what I needed to do to get it done, um very quickly, and then just stay out. Now, if we're talking say mid September, like the time frame I found myself in, then I'm gonna scout more the edges. I'm not going to go into that thick stuff. Now. I do exactly what I did that other firm. I'd walk the field edges. Okay, Now maybe there's some open woods, Okay, I feel comfortable walking in open woods. Okay, now it's starting to get thick. Okay, I'm gonna look at my map. There's a point here that goes out into this marsh. That's definitely gonna be a betting area. So I'm not even gonna mess with it. I'm gonna assume that is what it looks like, you know. Or here's this island here, you know, in this in this marsh with all these you know, these kind of like brushy trees, that looks like a good betting area. I'm not even gonna verify it. It's on the map there, it is. That's pretty straightforward. Just kind of walk the edges and walk the fringes, and then you know, when I find something in that looks like it might be a good set up, it might be something I would prep or it might be something like, okay, you know, we're a little too close, I'm gonna do a run and gun, and I'm gonna I'm gonna set it up the first time I hunted, you know, and then and then kind of go from there, like I've done that in the past two It's it's more like a kind of less aggressive. You're learning the property, you're just not learning it intimately, and you're gonna learn it intimately throughout the season. Does that make sense? That makes a lot of sense. I get that. So what about the So we we've talked about preparing our archery situation. We've talked about preparing actually learning a property and getting a hunting plan in place. What else are you prepping or taken care of or what kind of rotune do you have around the final days before your hunting season starts. Maybe it's that last week or the last night or whatever it might be for you, What are those things that you're doing at the very end, just before it's go time. Yeah, those last two weeks, those are are really really key for me. That's when I'm trying to find the buck that I'm gonna try to kill opening day, and there's always one that I'm gonna try to kill opening day. And you know, with with all this preparation and you know, all the scouting, you kind of narrow down, you know, to certain areas that you know, I look for, you know, areas that always hold good deer. And then I'm also looking for deer that I know that I made it and there are locations and I'm also looking for deer that I found through scouting. So now I'm trying to find a book that's showing some sort of weakness coming up to those last couple of days. And I'm not trying to be too intrusive. I'm not going to go in there and necessarily check a camera. I might if the conditions, um, you know, are good. If you get a good rain or something and my camera's off of where you know, I'm I might do that. I might go in there and see like, oh man, here's a picture of him an eight half an hour before are after dark. Okay. Now I feel I feel confident, like I know where he's at because I've scouted. I know where the beds are. I feel like I can get in. I could run and gun, or maybe I already have a tree prep or something, but I feel like I can, I can slip in there the conditions are right. Um. I usually make some sort of move on a deer that first day of the season, and and and some of them are like it's clear, like okay, this this deer is moving. You know, he's he's he's in the area, he's living here. Um, And it feels more of like a I won't say a sure thing, but like a real confidence is really high. And then there's other ones where like, okay, he was here, you know I glassed him coming into this field a few weeks ago or maybe a week ago, and I haven't seen him since I checked the cameras not on there, but that might be my best lead. And I've learned to never just just because you don't they're not on amer or you don't see them coming in the field anymore, it doesn't mean they're not there. There's some shifting around that goes in that late summer. You know, you'll have some deer that stay, some deer that leave, and you won't see him again until like December, and then there's those those some deer that that come in. But that's why that that last week week and a half is a really key because by that time they're usually there. And so I'm just trying to find that one, that one scenario where it looks like, you know, it looks like I can get it early season kill and it's it's my my favorite time. Um and I've killed quite a few deer there. But it's by no means is it like you know a thing. It's just that's my goal for opening day. I want to be on a buck. I want to know where he's at. I want to feel I have a real high confidence set up, and I feel like if I prepare enough and I you know kind of you know, spread my scouting enough and and and locate, try to locate enough big deer that I can find one or maybe even two that are showing some sort of weakness or where I feel like I got a chance there. So at that point, like so you you've done, You've had your wide net cast throughout the summer, and then sometime in late summer early fall, you're kind of saying, Okay, here's my five mature bucks, or there's ten mature bucks, there's three mature bucks or whatever. And then now you're getting to that last week or two before the season, do you do you then look at the information you have so far and then say, okay, all of these five bucks on the various properties that can hunt, I think buck number one is going to give me the very best chance for the opening night kill. And then do you zoom in all of your focus just on that one deer then and spend the last two weeks doing some glassing they're or doing a couple of camera polls or something like, do you focus in on that one deer or you still looking at everything because you want because your number one October one buck might change. Yeah, it usually things start playing out where like you know, deer start to spurt, like you know, you're you're seeing this buck coming out and you know it's like mid September and all of a sudden, like okay, he's gone, you know, so he's kind of things start falling off, like things start playing out where it just kind of narrows him down. And um, you know, there's just some some deer. And and to be honest with you, a lot of spots I hunt aren't great for early season, um, you know, holding a buck early season, but there are some I do have some that every year hold a good buck. Um, So it's you know, I tend to focus on those areas, but I'm also trying to always find new areas that are like that. And there's some areas that are just literally that first week it is like your chance. And if you don't get it done, then it's not one of those spots you want to wait till the rut because they're gone. The crops come out and there's nothing there anymore. It just doesn't it doesn't have enough security cover to the deer to feel safe and confident there, so they're gone. It's more of like a late summer early fall thing. So it's real important to recognize that and then capitalize on those spots, you know, when they're they're most effective. So I do have a handful of areas like that, and I'm constantly adding some. So yeah, I'm I'm zeroing in on those. Um just this year, there's a there's a new area that, uh, it looks like it could just just going by experience, it looked like it could be decent early. There's some there's some like apple trees on there and they hold some water and I'm thinking it might be a good thick cover. It could be a really good area for a mature deer early season. So there's another spot for me to kind of keep tabs on. But it things tend to play out, and you kind of your focus tends to narrow naturally to like, Okay, this dear is doing this, you know, and he's showing up or he's showing some regularity, or last year he was you know regularly during this time years. So it all kind of, you know, it all comes into play. Just tend to narrow down. I'm not necessarily just because there's a big giant, you know here in Velvet that I'm just gonna be ultra focused on that deer. I won't do that because you know there's fifty fifty chance that he might go somewhere else like that that buck that you helped me track. You know, that deer was never there early season. You know, he never was. He was. In fact, I've told you this. The play was to kill him late season. That's when he always came. And so I wasn't even after that deer. I was there after a big wide ten point and um, for whatever reason, I mean, who knows. You don't call it luck, you know, fate whatever, he showed up you know, early season. So, um, that's a heck of a buck too. Yeah. I wanted to bring him. Yeah, but you know, so you know, I tend to just you usually ends up being like one or two bucks, and it's Michigan. I mean, sometimes it's one. Sometimes it's I've had I've had years where I've literally found like two shooters period and then other years where it's been like seven or eight, you know, and it's just it kind of depends on the year. And you know, if it's been a good growing season, you know, what what deer have been killed? What haven't. You know. It's just you know, like a few years ago, every deer that I had on camera that was three and a half or older, which was or that I had seen which was a lot. There was a lot for Michigan with the most I've ever seen. Every single one except one was verified killed. Yeah, so we went into that next season like, Okay, there's not gonna be much around, you know, But then you know, then there's years it's like you know, you're you're glass in and there's like, man, there's some good bucks there and you you know, big tracks here. When I'm scouting, it's like then you pull your card and there's a couple of shooters you know at this place, in this place, It's like, wow, there's a lot of nice deer around, and they tend you know, they tend falling off. Pressure increases here, they disappear. This deer gets posted, this deer gets killed. You know, you know, things happen, it ends up narrowing down, but you know, it just kind of depends. But usually that that last week I'm usually focused on like one, maybe two, two. Dear, you know, what are you doing in those final days or weeks As far as preparing other stuff. So other than you found your buck or bucks that you're gonna target that first night, do you do anything to prep your gear? Do you do anything to prepare your your mind? I don't know, uh, any any process stuff that's happening at home before the season actually begins. Um. I mean the gear stuff is just kind of as I can do it throughout the year, like here and there. I don't I don't necessarily designate a certain time for that. Um. You know, I try to get all my equipment quiet. I like our real reliable system, so like in my pack, you know, everything is always wear you know, has its own little pocket or station and it's just everything's where I needed to be. I don't want to be fumbling around with stuff. You know, what was it that you forgot on our Nebraska hunt? Oh yeah, the range that was never done that before ever. Yeah, the system got messed up with a trip and that came and you know it was like I remember too, I remember gathering stuff out of the back of your car and it was like I had a bag over here, my my my backpack over here, and I was like, where where is that? Where is everything? Like this is completely messed up, and uh, I was wearing a vinyl harness, and I had my range finder clipped onto my vinyl harness, and I grabbed everything hopped out of your truck, um, and didn't grab the vinyal harness. So I didn't have my binoculars or that. And and I started walking and I get up that first hill and I'm like, oh, you know, like grabbing chest. And I turn around and I see your car, like your truck going over the hill like you know. So I was just like, yeah, I do Uh, nothing good was gonna happen that night. But sorry. Back to what you're saying about your system. Yeah, the equipment stuff, you know, again, just like with everything else, I'm trying to improve improve the system. I'm trying to find gear that's quieter, gear that's makes you know, it makes things lighter, less bulky, it makes me more effective in the woods, and um, you know, uh I I I like the system I have, so I guess I haven't been changing too much. You know. I used to use a lone wolf and sticks, which is great. I still have them. It's a really nice like mobile type set up, which you know, a lot of my hunting is and you know, I have gravitated more towards like the tree saddle. Um, I had one a long time ago. A Trophy line used it for two seasons, killed deer out of it, and I'll album it just wasn't real comfortable for me, and when I started having my back issues and stuff, I just got away from it. Just wasn't comfortable. I felt fidgety. There was one hunt in Ohio that I was like, I was gonna sit till noon. I was, I had till noon to hunt. I was gonna sit till noon. It was like November four, and it got to ten o'clock and I couldn't stand the pain anymore in my hips, and I got down and I was like, I can't, I can't. I can't risk not sitting ten to twelve during the rut when I have that time of elt. So then I went back to the tree stand, which you know, definitely wasn't comfortable, but at least I could stand, sit, stand, sit, just kind of keep things loose. And then, um, you know, and then you know, in the past couple of years, all these you know, new saddles have come out and they're so much better than what they were you know, and I was able to tryal one that I really liked, you know, so light, um, no bulk to it, and they out with a little backband, so I'm able to find really good comfort in it too now, so that I kind of got into that like mid last season, and then I used that exclusively and then that's gonna be my go to this year too. It's just it's they're they've made just so much improvements on it, so that's a big gear change, but everything else is just about getting it quiet, um you know. Um, you know, I'm happy with like you know, my clothes and boots and that sort of thing. Like sometimes I'll try like new boots and that sort of thing, but I don't I don't spend a whole lot of energy on that. Like everything I have is like pretty freaking quiet. And what I like about, you know, having quiet stuff and like the saddle with less bulk and everything's like I love. I like that I can go into the woods, run and gun in a new area and I'm perfectly capable and and ready to climb up a tree and hunt twenty five ft or I can hunker down on the ground and I don't have a stand or or anything noisy to worry about. And if I see a buck bedded with a dough out there, I can I can crawl and stock with him. I mean, I have everything I need to do that, Like if I had a climbing tree stand or staying with sticks that weighs twenty four pounds, you know what I mean. I don't know, I just it just really fits my style. So that's really been the only big gear change. But I'm I'm always trying to like just kind of dial things in and just get things quieter, eliminate anything that could go wrong, and just have everything really reliable. Like if I want my hand saw a boom, I know right where it's at. If I want you know, my bottle of water boom, I know where it's at. If I want my wind checker boom, I know it's in this pocket. Like I don't want to be like, you know, digging around and my you know, causing extra moving up in the tree stand. I want everything to be right where I need it, even like the way I hang my bow and everything is just so dialed in, it's always the same, you know what I mean. I want everything the same. This goes right back to what we talked about in a lot of these other episodes like this the power and like having the set routines and habits because it takes it keeps you from having to spend precious energy on all these things that just have to get done and get done, done, done. If you have a system in place that frees your mind up to focus on the stuff that you really need to focus on, like how to adapt to the changing variables or something brand new happens you got fair where's the buck going to be? Or how's my playing going to change? Or where should be hunting. That kind of stuff is what your brain power should be focused on versus twenty different little decisions about where to hang my boat and what's going to be in my backpack and where's my gear going to be in the morning when I wake up to go to the truck. Like all having all those things lined out the way you do, I think it's just a perfect way to eliminate air, find those little inches, let you spend your energy and time on the big stuff that you know that you have that skill to do, and you now get the mental space to do it too. Yeah, there's somebody I don't remember who it was, but I don't know if I read it in a book or online or something, but it was something that I read a few years ago, and it said something like, would you have a choice to to choose the difficult thing or the easy thing? I always choose the difficult thing. So I always try to do that now. So like if there's a you know, if there's a tree stand that's a mile away or this one here that's four yards away, I'm gonna choose the one that's a mile away. Or you know, like you said, you wake up in the morning and you don't feel like going Like I have those morning to mornings too. I usually get up and go to the gym. I actually do enjoy doing that, but like sometimes you just don't feel like doing it. But then I'll like, okay, I don't feel like doing it, I'm doing it. And now it's just like now it's just I always just choose the harder thing, you know what I mean. So now it's like it's just kind of the way I live. Um, I mean, I'm sure I choose the easiest things sometimes, but you know, I guess when it comes to this type of stuff, and like, you know, being the best I can be in improving and hunting and trying to stay in shape and anything like that. It's just like, okay, if it's if it's the harder thing, that's what I want to do. It's usually the best choice. It's just hard to do it. Yeah. What and this is where I want to leave things. What is going through your mind the last night before hunting season opens, your first hunts in the morning, You're laying in bed at night, lights are off, it's quiet. What are the final things that you're thinking about before the hunting season begins. Um. Usually that's a pretty uh calm and relaxed time for me, because I know that I've done everything I could have done to be prepared. Um, there's usually a deer that you know I'm onto that I have fairly high confidence in, and having a decent hunt the next day. Um, it's usually a very peaceful time for me. Um. One thing I do not just that day. I actually do this every night unless I just kind of fall asleep before I do it. But it's kind of I started doing this when I m after I kind of got through the target panic thing. But I before I go to bed, I'll go through one scenario. I'll go through, um, a deer that I've shot, a deer that I haven't all right, that I shot at and screwed up, and then a completely made up one, and I go I closed my eyes and I visualized this encounter. So I'll close my eyes and I'll visualize a deer that I shot that comes in exactly what he's doing, you know, exactly how he did it, and I'll come to full draw and I'll settle the pin and I'll let it float and I'll just focus on executing the shot and making that perfect shot and seeing that erraw, you know, disappear right where I wanted to hit. So I'll relive those moments that were successful, and then i'll do the same thing with one that I screwed up on, one that I missed, one that I hit and wounded, you know, those ones that really kind of eat at you. So I'll replay that exactly how it played out, and I'll make that perfect shot again right behind the shoulder and see that arrow disappear. And then I'll just make up a new one, a brand new one. Um, whether it's you know, an elk and antelope and white tail or whatever and just and just visualize that. And I've been doing that now for I don't know, like eight or nine years, and I try to do that every night. But um, usually, like you know, before the hunting season, Um, you know that night before is this like a it's kind of like a kind of rest peaceful. I feel like I'm prepared, um, But at the same time, UM, excited and you know, it's it's now that I think about it's actually it's kind of a it's a peaceful feeling, but it's also a bit of an anxious feeling because I know the next few months are going to be a lot of commitment, a lot of hard work, a lot of hours in the stand. It's like a it's like a nervous, like anxious kind of excitement. But I feel very peaceful and content of my preparation. Preparation. That makes sense, It does, absolutely makes sense. I can relate to that. And I feel like, listen to all this, you know, you prepare like a pro like there's there's there's a there's a book, and I haven't read the book, but i've read the like the prequel to this book, and I've read a lot of things from this person. He he talks about going pro with something, how there's a difference between having a hobby versus taking something so serious as if you were a professional. Let even if you're not really a professional. But when you make decisions and when you prepare, and when you put the heart and soul and commitment into something as if it was what you made your living from, that's how people really excel at something. And maybe you know, just could be something you're really excited and passionate about and you want to excel in it, so you make those pro decisions. And I think the types of decisions you're making, choosing to do the hard things you is gonna be preparing all throughout the year, focusing on the minichia, focusing on the little steps, quantifying how to get better things. I think that's how you prep like a pro, and I think it shows obviously with your results. Um So for people out there who want to get better at hunting or whatever, they don't necessarily need to do all the things that you do right. Like you said, like it works for you, it might not be for everybody, but I think everyone can learn from you with the process. You take the level of attention you pay to the different steps in that process. I think that's really big takeaway. Um and it's helpful for me and encouraging to encouraging makes me feel lazy, but it it's inspiring me to do better than I do because I feel like I do a whole hell a lot. But there's room to get better. And uh, it's good to hear from people that can can push you. And I think you set an example that can push us. So so thanks for sharing that. Man. Yeah, there's there's always room to get better for everybody. And you know, the worst thing, like what I hate seeing two is like guys that are successful, you know anything, but let's just kind of focus on deer hunting guys that you know, have had years and years six success that kind of get stuck in their ways and you could tell they're not getting better and in fact that sometimes sometimes they see other guys that are having success and they like to almost like put those guys down because they do it differently. And um man, I don't know, it's just really disheartening to see that. You know, guys that have like really reached this high level is something that they've you know, dedicated, you know, their lifetime to only to put down a guy that's equally successful, that just does it a little bit different way. I just I don't get it um and and my goal is just to I just want to continue to learn. I don't want I don't want the greatest wall of all time. I don't want, you know, a bigger buck than you, or a bigger buck than my buddies or anybody else. I just I want to continue learning, and I want to get the better. It's more of like, uh, like a competition with myself, you know, I wanna, I wanna. I just want to. I can't. I don't. I don't know I would ever feel right just being like, okay, you know what, I'm pretty decent at this. We're just gonna kind of level it out and go from there and just kind of, you know, kill some nice deer every year. I don't know. It's just I think some people's minds are are made different that they just it probably has something to do with what you're passionate about, and you know what you love and and for me and you, this is certainly it. So it's just like we have that that kind of drive to improve. But I feel like there's something you can learn from everybody, Like I've learned from you, and I've learned from some of these guys that I talked about that I've had years and year success. I don't ever want to lose that. Like you can learn from the guy that killed a big buck right down the road. I always want to hear that story from the guy that didn't know what he's doing, because you're gonna learn something from it, you know. And I always take the time to sit down and talk to those guys, and there's always bits and pieces you can you know, you can take from those that you can you know, incorporate into your own knowledge. And uh, you know, I think can really help you. I think you are spot on with that one. And um, we've talked for a long time. I can't believe how long we talked. There was there was a lot of good stuff in there. So we're gonna wrap it up. Um, we'll have to get get you back on here again. I know we've got plans to do that. And UM, I know we've been talking about some plans. Maybe we can try to do a hunt again this fall. Yeah, we should. All right, let's talk against him, all right, And that's gonna do it. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you did, if you enjoy what Andy had to say. He has a lot more to share, and he's been a guest on the podcast several different times over the past few years. To go back through the wire Dune podcast archives, look up Andy May. He's a good friend, a really really good deer hunter, and someone who I think has a particular knack for sharing what he does and how he does it in a way that um that can help people, and that I think is is not intimidating. It's easily consumed, which is which is why I've learned so much from too. So take a look at those other episodes, Enjoy them, Enjoy your weekend, enjoy your day, And as we've been talking about, there's lots to be doing. So hopefully you're out there in the field practicing with your bow or hanging tree stands or playing food plots, are doing something to get ready for hunting season, because before you know it, it's gonna be here. So until then, stay wired to hunt.