00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to Episode number twenty three. I'm Ben O'Brien, and I'm excited about this podcast. Um. I'm excited about it for a bunch of reasons. Excited about it because of the group of people I was with when we recorded this podcast. I'm excited about it because of the topic, um, and I'm just excited about it to be a part of a community of people that I believe cares about the right stuff. And part of why this podcast is what I've wanted to do and what I've enjoyed doing, is because of that exact thing. Is a group of people that are passionate about something that I've shared ideas and that are looking to expand their knowledge, are looking to share their stories. And so Episode number twenty three is about those things, but it's also about public lands. It's also about five people coming together to express themselves, else to share ideas, and to talk about the threats to our public land. Now, these five people, myself included, are not experts, were not uh legislators, We are not policy makers, We are not part of of leadership in any conservation groups. But what we are is five people that really care about public lands and and when something comes up to threaten those lands, I think we all felt um that would be productive to sit down and address those so we did that. We did that on Sam Sohol's public land bus in the middle of the night, Big Sky Montana. And the folks that join me you'll hear him pretty soon are the guys from Hushing, Brian mcelray and Casey Butler, Ben Dead Demante, Old Shed Crazy, Sam sohold himself and end me open over and so I hopefully you can understand where we were going with this. You can understand that we're just five guys that love hunting, love, efficient love, public lands, are passionate about learning, and take exactly that from this, and hopefully you have conversations like this with your group of friends and the circles that you travel, and then you can inspire each other to learn more. So, without further ado, please enjoy episode others clips on Hey, we're live with everybody. We're on a bus. We're not on public land, are we We're not. We are on very private land, very private land. Very private land. Probably could be public land. It could be if people didn't like to pay high dollar for skiing. Yeah, but people do. They do people really like that bus? Here we are, but hey, celebrate I say, celebrate private landowners as well. Let's do it. Yes, think everybody think that. Yeah, I'm proud of the half acre. I own me too. I'm point four three no way here in this beautiful state of Montana. Yeah, yeah, shoot on you man. Um, let's go around and say who we are. Sam, please begin Sam's holt. I am a professional photographer in the hunting industry, owner of the public land bus, and we are currently sitting here in my bus were the bus. Yeah, my name is Ben Detta Monty. Um, I'm currently sitting in the bus of Sam's hold as well. And uh I do Instagram, YouTube and whatever I want. Wow, my name's Casey Butler. I am sitting on the bus as well. Actually seeing on Ben's lap on the bus that's sitting on public private land. That's Betel Brian Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been on this podcast once before. Thanks for having me back. I'm from I'm one third of Hush You Are. I'm Brian Mackray, two thirds of Hush yea and the second third or the actually that's not far off on the back end of things. What do you didn't even hear it. Would you rather he's saying he's doing two thirds? Would you rather be the second third or the third third? I'm the third third? Yeah, no doubt really tying it down. I am You're the glue. The yeah, I'm I'm hurting the hotelis hush, Yes, you're the Jannest Patlis the perfect analogy. The last podcast we called Yanni the glue, the glue. You're the glue as well. I would definitely say he's the glue. The glue stick can have a responsible Jannest has a much cooler nickname than I do, though, what's your nickname? A lot of them didn't just does. He has a cooler real name and nickname than you, with the last name of battle Ray, which is unpronounceable when you see it on paper by most people. You get a lot of nicknames growing up as a kid. Yeah, all shortened down like anything Mac, mac and cheese everything, Ben, give me give me a mac McGregor's the only thing I can think of right now, Big Mack. It's kind of ironic. I went to food. I was with you immediately to food. B max sins were Since you are the glue, tell us, what what brought us onto the bus today, why we came here to be together. We're gonna talk a little bit about some of the recent comments from a Senator Mike leout of beautiful state of Utah where I actually reside. Who else he resides in Utah? I do, Ben does. Yeah, I live in the south end of the state, and then Casey here and Ida. But you're basically you might as well be in Utah. No, no, you don't know. No, you don't claim it. I lived, loved I lived in Utah for ten years and uh, and then we moved back. We moved to l A and then moved uh to Idaho, where I was raised. And my wife was trying to convince me to move back to Utah. I said, no, no, I won't do it because of mike Le. Mike Lee, that's the one reason. You were like, listen, honey, you know who must lives there. My my reasons were very selfish. It wasn't because of Mike Lee. But I was like, Babe, the honey, opportunities here in Idaho are just that much better. And she's like, you're really gonna base where we live and where we raise our family off funding. I said yes, And now we're in Idho still Yeah, I won. Was that prior to hush or during last year? Yeah, you're like, we have a hunting YouTube channel. Yeah, She's like, you can do that anywhere. Kind of deep. Yeah, well I like Idaho. Well, Um, to the point of public lands, I think what we all should acknowledge before we begin this discussion is that Mike Lee, Senator Mike Lee, a Great State of Utah, is one of many villains in a long storyline that is public lands going back to when they began, when there was railroad tycoons and Robert Barons and people that wanted to push our expansion westward, manifest destiny whatnot. And they were pushing against you know, um pinch Ow and Roosevelt and pushing back on the idea of preserving and uh lands for everyone because those lands can be profitable. So Mike Lee is just the most recent villain in the story many many of which reside in Utah. In Utah, yeah, but the most recent. Uh. It's kind of like the vestige of transfer proxy. Really yeah, good that you know a lot of us, a lot of folks that and this will know about Jason Schaffitz, But um Jason Schaffitz was the most recent. Was he a senator, congressman, congressman, congressman out of Utah to stand up and say we should transfer a federal ownership of lands to the states. Uh, the states can better manage those resources. But more over, Mike Lee gave a speech recently where he said a wilderness. Specifically, he traced wilderness to the European aristocracy prior to the colonization of this land that we sit on. I believe it's hashtag royal force. Hashtag royal force. So he somehow drew a line from uh, a place that is owned by the public. Two European aristocracy in the sevred somehow made that the draw and his his thing was, wilderness is for the few. Not everybody can go to wilderness, So wilderness is for the few. And he made hard left at common sense and practicality, and then went right towards aristocracy. The aristocracy wanted hunting to be for the few, be for the ridge to be for the well off. Wilderness somehow is the same thing. Anybody want to take that up, try to help us with that. I had a hard time understanding that analogy because to me, it was even beyond wilderness. It really like was just any public lands was very elitist. And the example he gave was people from Aspen flying in on their private jets, sipping on their coffee and micro brewis you know, to go to the Archers National Park and then they fly out, and how that is negatively impacting the local economy. And it just is a very interesting analogy that didn't resonate with me because I think, like most of us, pretty average guys grew up recreating on public LANs all of our lives, and so it almost seemed as if it was the opposite of the parallel he was drawing to what reality is for anybody that I know which is not elitist whatsoever. I mean the people that we run into on public plans or about his blue collar average folks as you can get just like how we were all raised. And so yeah, that was an interesting way too phrase his part of the speech. Yeah, And I mean, I don't know what I know Orange Hatch, and I know the legislatre, state legislature in Utah is full of folks that are Rob Bishop. Yeah, Rob Bishop is a big one. Yeah, they're full of folks that are are can spin that yarn. Rob Bishop is on that yarn on many times, many times on the media podcast himself. Um to hear them say it, it's it's a out returning these lands to the people and allowing the people of the state to profit off these lands once more, which it can be a compelling argument to listen and listen to. When it's veiling that way, listen to that, you're like, oh, that's playing am I much like uh During the National Monuments crisis, I will call it a crisis of conscience or whatever we'll call that, people were saying. One side was like, well, Trump's given the land back to the people, and the other side was like, Trump's taking the land away from the people. Holy sh it. Somewhere is the right answer, And it's neither one of those somebody's lying or both of them are lying. Just a small disconnect between the two ends on that one. Wait a minute, I think that's what's so interesting about this whole topic is so the bears here was going to go in a couple of years ago, and I don't know that Eric has some friends lived down there, and that's the last thing they wanted was that monument, And well, now and there are people just like us. They hunt fish, enjoy public lands, and uh where they they didn't want the monument, right. I don't know the details of that one anyway, But it's like this, we draw a sand, like a line in the sand, and it's it's because of these politicians are just giving out such wrong information and leading people to believe what it is better that the federal that we own our public or that the state's control of public LANs. But what we've learned from history is a lot of times the states will sell those public LANs off to pay for whatever school districts or or something like that. But I always say, it's just a communication breakdown. Like it seems like that's why you task such a big problem. It's like the Republicans have continuously done this in the past. And it's like that famous speech when tex Triers came to Ido trying to convince the IDO people that it's the right thing to do, and he's like, you look at the state that I come from, only two of our lands are ran by the federal government. And it's like, because that's all the public lands you guys have remaining. Yeah, well, I mean, you gotta be in this case, you have to be pro nuance and anti bullshit. The National Monument things specifically was full of nuance. There's a lot of things that you know, grand staircase escalante is that bears ears is not. There's a lot of issues and micro macro terms for both those places that need to be set aside and dealt with on their on their own but in but in the same way, when you look at the history of of all this, you have to understand that, you know, public lands are good for this country, but there's a whole lot of micro issues on the regional level that make them complicated. And so what we I think as a group who care about these things need to do, in my opinion is, um, now, let's not get into the n R a bullshit where the sky is always falling, everything's always going away. We're unwilling to have a, you know, a serious dialogue about when is federal ownership of lands not the best thing for that land? Um And you can't always be preaching from the same pulp, because then you become fearmongers. Then you become because that's what this like that Mike Lee comes out and then it's like the next thing to get excited about. Well, it's the same conversation. It's the exact same conversation. Both sides have been saying the same thing for many decades. I think the difference though, is that, you know, the chiefest thing kind of erupted, and then through social influence, largely a lot of people, created a big stir and he ultimately killed that bill that he introduced because of the backlash, and then that died down for almost a good year, and then Mike Lee is the next guy to kind of surface back up with some pretty bold statements. The way he finished off his speech was very definitively and he had three initiatives that he plans on moving forward with which, then, to your point, is the next major thing to talk about It particularly for folks in the industry or any public land users or owners that are kind of passionately hanging onto this, it's just relevant because it's back again. It's it's like it's like a virus that just to bring it up and beat it down. Yeah, I mean, Sam, your your mother is uh state State State Center in South Dakota dealt with a lot of these issues. Yes, so a little bit of it. Yeah, and the big one, like at the state level more than the federal level in South Dakota was most recently there was a change in the law to UM. So in South Dakota. When the state was founded, they put the water in public trust, so it's called the public trust doctrine. So the people of the state owned the water, so that no one had a superior right to do with the water what they wanted to do with it. So um. But more, they just passed the law that did end up giving um that my mom thought this really hard. Um. But they passed a law that gives superior right to the landowner to be able to close off access to a public resource. Um just because they don't want people to come near their property. Um So, even though somebody might be floating on top of the public water, even though there's private land underneath. Because a lot of the eastern half of South Dakota flooded. Um just through a long series of um complaints and different things that happened in lawsuits and different things, the legislature unfortunately passed the law that closed down I mean could potentially close down up close to half million acres of public resource. So she's been on I don't a lot to fight that, um, and she hasn't done dealt much with any of the public land stuff at the federal level. But it just goes to show you it doesn't matter what level you're at. It's like it's you know, it's a fight to protect it all. Yeah. I think that's another misunderstanding to when these Utah delegation continues to bring forth these uh comments and plans to do things. A lot of folks think that, oh, well, that's just in Utah, like that's whatever I lived somewhere else, so it's not that important of an issue. But the reality is, you know, when he's talking about some of the things he would like to do, it would impact everything. Yeah. Yeah, I mean well, I mean I listened to the link cut out on me when I was listening to a speech, so I only got about halfway through it, but it, uh, it seemed to me that he was just kind of guessing that most people wouldn't do the research on like what public land actually is and would just follow along with kind of what he was saying because he's and you know, an elective official and he should have all the answers, and so I think, um, it was like almost like a marketing speech, like like selling people on the idea, like that his idea was correct, and spinning it in a way that you know, made this like one of America's most you know, precious resources, making it seem like it was something for the you know, the only the elite people. Well, there's there's nuance happening, right, We all as hunters have to agree that the states can better manage wildlife that's in our North American model of conservation is held in trust by the states. So that's at one level we're saying the states are best suited. The state biologists, state widlife biologists and state game agencies run hunting. They and when we buy Pittman Robertson's funds go through the federal government back to state agencies. So it's it's not that they're incapable of doing it. And so there's nuance to that conversation. So you could use that point and argue all day that that why would why would states not want to own that land when state wildlife managers are the ones that we trust and wildlife biologists to dictate how we hunt and where are we hunt and how we do it and what it costs and where we can go. But at the same time you understand, like, while that is true, what's also true is if that if the states own that land, the governors, state legislator their dictate. Their dictation is too control the budget and balance the budget. That's their job. And historically, especially in Utah, when you give them the ownership of public lands, they will balance the budget and sell what could be an albatross for for the state budget. So I think we all need to be able to talk through. Hey, look, we all on the states rights kind of guy. I guess when it when it makes sense, um when it doesn't that I'm not, but I think we need. We can get caught up in a one politician thinking that that states rights lane and sticking to it and never will That's what Mike Lee does. He just talks about it. He's like, states right, States right, States right. I'm with the states rights most of the time, but in this one case, you're you're wrong. I mean a lot of it comes down to finances, right. I mean I think a lot most everybody could admit that the fed federal government could do a better job managing the public lands the resources that we have right now, but they also aren't getting the funding that they're due because of how Congress is budgeting the money to be had, right I mean, that's one of the biggest challenges currently is that the federal resources and managers don't really have much to work with. And then you look on the contrary side of that, like Ben's point is, if states did have suddenly control over all of these additional acreages and resources, how the heck can they pay for the stuff that right now the federal government struggling to degree to pay for. And so it comes down to this financial challenge of well, and there's been some can be afforded in the public land sphere, there's been some winds In the recent omnibus package that the spending bill that was passed. They set some some rules against fire borrowing, which is when um, when uh fire happens on public lands a lot of times the budget that was that's there for wildlife managers and land managers to manage that public land. They're taking money out of their pockets to put the fire out, and that's millions, millions, billions of dollars and so that I'm gonna package had some language in it that said, can't do that anymore, or it's limited. And there's a laundry list of of what I would consider winds for UH public land and public land owners and users. And so I think that on the micro side, there's a lot of things we can say, let's go on the right way. But there again, there's some folks in Utah that would would likely say, hey, look we'll take We'll take those micro losses if we can convince enough people that the that states need to run this land. And then at the end of the day, I'm trying to look up the numbers in Utah. Some percentage of state held land and Utah has already been sold off. I don't know what the number is, but it's a significant number. I think people underestimate the sentiment of Utah's Utah's Southern Utah, especially like Mike Lee is a well like guy um in my neck of the woods. Um with the people that I know, the people that that I run with, so um Or and Hatch we talked about orn Hatch earlier. Um he was elected in Utah and he ran on the platform of the stage Brush Rebellion His whole thing was give us the land back, or we're gonna succeed from the United States. And he won on that platform in Utah, and he got to Washington and learned that that wasn't the way things worked, and um, yeah, and people hate him for that. They hate him for the fact that he didn't follow through on that. So it's just the mentality is different. I was raised in that kind of a mentality screw the federal right and and large degree I feel like that. I'm like you're saying, you know, states rights for me of the time, and it took me until a lot of kind of conversations like this to sit down with people and realize the importance of the federal government in managing our public lands. Because I saw the opposite side of that, and and that was what was taught to me the whole time I was growing up. Yeah, that's a big part of it, and a big part of the hunting population leans right and leans states rights. And except for good reasons, I'm not a big fan of the federal government and a lot of things, but I do shure like Rhods, you know that I'm driving on. I do shure like all the little the things that my tax dodge go to the fund um. But again there there's just there's just nuance to that story. And when you grow up in the situation you had been that. I don't wholly disagree with that, but I do there's like an at the end of the day, which and this is different than the gun debate. I always tried to draw comparisons to that because you look at the n r A and you look what they've done. Nobody wants b h A to be the n RA of the public lands, right, None of us want that. None of us want to be like blind followers of something for just to blind. I just like just to be the the n r A sycophan, or to be the guy that's like, they're never gonna take our guns. There's no way, nothing can happen, slippery slope, don't touch anything. In fact, I need to have more without saying like what's best for this society, best for this country. I think what we can avoid is being that, you know, sitting around here without full perspective and saying, don't ever touch our public land. Don't ever touch our public land. I mean, how many types of public lands are there? And how many types of different states and what things and so. Um, when there's a movement like we're part of, everybody is just looking to what's the next thing to look at. Because we got a little we had a little dead spot before Mike Lee spoke up. It was pretty quiet for a long time where where you know, public land advocates were looking around like do we do it? We gotta do more? What do we gotta Bruefest coming up? What do we got going on? I guess we'll throw a party. Well that Yeah, then it became it became Land and Water Conservation Fund, which is important. Um, so that's another good point to say, Lana Water Conservation Fund is not all that popular topic until there was a lag in the public land conversation and he needed something to pick up. That very important piece of legislation got a bunch of chatter for that reason. I think that's a good thing for sure, and and I think it will get funded, but not in perpetuity, yeah, unfortunately, but hopefully it's more than the recommended amount of like eight million down from yah situation. Yeah, and then you I'm not a big fan of politics, but I'd be interested here. Anybody's opinion on you get a Republican administration run by Donald Trump and they slash and burn the e p A like that's that's a victory. And they slash in pern regular nation, the slash and and that would become into public lands. That's what exactly the same thing they'd like to do there. So those policies are um and and these are people that are pro hunting air quotes. What do we do with that? What do we do with that? Are we now screaming liberal a holes because we want the environment to be protected in the public lands to day in federal hands. I don't think. I don't think you can say that. I think the fact is it's okay to agree with you know, a person or an administration on certain things and disagree on others. No, it's not, Sam, I watched Fox Newsy step down. I agree, man. I think that's the big biggest issue. It's our society is we can't talk through things like it's either it's this way or no, it's not right, And especially with politics, like why can't we believe in certain things that certain candidates are for and not believe in other of things? Like I think that that should be allowed right, Like it's like you. I like you for a lot of different reasons. I don't like the way you look though. It's marginal, it's margin, but no, like, yeah, that's what's so interesting about Utah's So those people that live down in southern Utah, when they proposed the Bears their monument, they were like no, like, we don't want that. That's the last thing we want. I remember people are sending Eric text like hey, help us, like get the word out about this, like we need to shut this down. Well, then we have another big group of hunters and fishermen that are like, no, this is actually a good thing for you guys, and so like how is how is the message being washed so thin throughout this whole group of people that do the same things. Yeah, I'll tell you how. Because that national monument desination is complicated, Like I've read through a lot of trying to figure out what exactly is a national monument in that sense? What access does it provide? What access doesn't limit? From what I could say, it doesn't limit much access at all, other than you know, a road here or there or something like that. Now, then you're talking about what is access. You've got to define what the word access means. What? What what does public mean? What why it went? Is public good? One? Is it bad? Um? Because public can be bad. To ship too many people in a place, we all know that's not good. Access, too many roads on a place, we all know that's not good. But that's some people. That's access. Yeah, I think some of that. We deal with that a lot in the south end of the state too. Um. You take these areas like there's an area near my home in southern Utah that started off as um it's a place called Canaro Falls. I talked about it now because it's the whole world knows about it, and uh, they're running into a lot of these similar problems. It's just a popular height and for years no one knew about this place. You know, it was a local spot. Everybody would go up there. And then because of whatever, you know, social media as well as you know, it became a really well known thing. And then you have to deal with, um, the crowds, you have to deal with parking, you have to deal with Sanita shan and so now they're looking to incorporate it in design National Park. Well, then it becomes a fee area and I think it just makes it a really complicated question anytime the word gets out, and a lot of people, I know in the local demographics fear that. With the bearsers, I know that was a huge part of the problem is it becomes a national monument and then when you look at places to visit, here's this national monument, that's something we can check out and and the problems that come with so much traffic is a big fear for the locals. Yeah, and that's a delicate situation, you know. And then you start, I think you can get on on a national level, you get people that are just picking apart, they're just taking what they want out of that. And you know how much national money you get tourism, right when dollars come from tourism. But this is a that's a pretty unique place. They got more people chomping around on it, and people want to access it, more campers going up. But that's what at some level we're talking about. We're talking about public access to things and so and I'm I sit on the board of b h A. I don't know what they think about, you know, me saying let's think about the nuance first, and let's not always just be like, hey, if it's public it is better. Let's think about both sides of that at all times. I know that's the kind of centrist organization I believe B H A two B. But um, it's way easier to market the other ship. Well that's what the other I mean, that's what they do that. It's like we're talking about with you know, you watch Fox News, you picture side right. They want to say you have to be on one side of the issue or the other. Either you are pro public land transfer or not, and that's it. Those are the only options. But neither one of those is a perfect option. I mean, you have to break it down to what works best for each specific chunk of land. And you have to break it down when you look at either ideology, which parts you like, which parts you don't like. That's how you become educated about a thing. You know, you can't just say I'm opposed, I'm for it and close your eyes. And I think that's what a lot of people want to do. And when you find people like with the mentality that are so opposed to this this are so in favor of this public land transfer, it's because it's easier just to swallow the whole people. Let's say I'm opposed or I'm in favor, than it is to get educated on every little part of it. And I hear you're talking about reading bills um and talking about proposed reading proposed legislation. What is it half of a percent that does that. Everybody else just watches on TV and they say I'm form against. They get in their camp. Yeah I've read some legislation. I still come away like, I'm not sure what the funk I just read. I don't know how I would distill that to the public and make sure to make it make them read it. And you can't, Yeah, you can't come out and be like, well, I know you guys are all really piste off as nastional money thing, but we're you know, we're looking into it. Yeah, we'll get back. We'll get back to you in about ten years. And I mean that's the way society is right now. We want immediate gratification and everything. And I mean even Mike Lee's speech was like an hour and a half on how many people legitimately sat through it and watched every second of that speech or read the entire transcript of it. Most people one for the cliff Notes version, like we're back in college, right. I got to the part where it pissed me off, and I stopped yecause I'm like, maybe after this will say something really cool, but I don't want to read that, right, I just want to be mad. I just want to be mad at this guy. We've always talked Case and I've talked to you know. We we both grew up super conservative, and you know, many generations of that in our families. And I think that's the easy way to go. Is people just kind of fall into what they know, what they're comfortable with, and it's a it's a little bit more challenging to step outside of that and say, Okay, there are certain things that I certainly agree with and on on board with. However, man, there's some really shady shit happening on that side of the fence. Like maybe I should reconsider a couple of things. Maybe I should reevaluate all of their decisions, and maybe I should even reconsider not just going down a party line if it gets to that, but really making some decisions on issues. And you know, I know for a lot of us, we may pick and choose certain issues that are more important than other ones. But there's a lot of folks that every time Mike Glee posts on Instagram Nowlysis just every comments keep it public. And I think there's a lot of folks that don't really understand what they're doing there. And that's I don't want that. I just don't want that as as a father, as a human being with a brain and fucking you know, marginal good looks that that's I just don't want that. I don't want that for anybody. I don't want I don't want to be on one end like you know, screw you haretics. But at the same time, be allowing haretics to be in my my community's like just don't don't be that. But at the same time, like you said, it's real fancy to talk about public lands right now, Like maybe at some point we'll get so comfortable that it won't be It just takes a lot of work to to really understand it because it is there's so many complexities to it, you know, I mean diving in deep to Utah for example, and for trying to figure out why why does this delegation keep running down this road? What is that? What's the root of it? And there's a lot of layers to that get to that route. When you start to talk, when you start to talking what you said about Orange Hatch, I mean, that's a deep stage rush rebellion. That's a deep seated, you know, like fundamental ideology that goes against federal ownership of basically everything. And at some level there's parts of that that you can see. I mean, there's there's parallels to our own, our own worlds, you know, the gun world being the one that I always try to draw parallels too, because you can see how you can see how people got spun up with gun rights. It's gun rights is compelling and wonderful and and fluffy a topic as public lands. It's like Heritage, Constitution, America, freedom, bald Eagles. It's just all the words you say to get elected. Yeah, but it's soon. It's easy to get swept up in that, and then the next thing you know, you got you've got something like n r A that doesn't look so nice anymore. Oh Yeah, so let's not do that. Let's avoid How do we avoid that? Because I I do feel like you get going down the road that we're on and everybody stops being educated and everybody just says to keep it public all the time, and that's not the point. That's not the point. Well, I think the fact that, you know, a lot of the people that are speir hitting this realize that fact right there changes all of it. The fact that they're saying, let's not just be a sounding board, like, let's actually be educated, because a large part of the other side of the issue is actively trying to engage the opposite. They're actually and trying to get people to just support and blindly follow. And the fact that you can look at yourself from a position of influence and say let's not be that that's the starting point right there. Yeah. Well, and the fact that everybody here when I say land or conservation nyms like checking her head like yeah, cool, I know what that is, Like that's pretty damn good. Like that's a good starting point when you can use all that excitement to basically, you know, pump up that the idea that you need to be knowledgeable is you're pretty close at that point to lead people to water. You can't make him drink though. I think the hope though, is that through through some of this keep it public movement and you know, maybe to an entry level standpoint, is people just post that that that would lead to other things like doing more research and getting more invested in finding out what does that really mean, and digging into the layers of why certain delegations are doing one thing and why others are trying to do a different thing, and just better understanding and educating yourself. So to me, it's like just taking action. And that doesn't necessarily mean you have to join a conservation organization or b h A or whoever, but you can take action to just further understand this really dynamic, complex topic which you know hopefully evolved in the next step. And taking action can be anything like that. You know, all of us, I think most of us here we're at the b h A DO and Boise this year, Like there's there's actionable stuff there, there's actual energy in that group of people. That group of people is pretty studious, Like they care about stuff. They're willing to go and do a group of people and and learn and listen, talk and have conversations. And that's important. So don't get me wrong. The movement is important, but movements are dangerous, man. Yeah, you just gotta ride that line between it just being trendy and it's what the cool kids are doing and actually moving things forward and doing things that are gonna change the outcome and not just have it be a way to sell a T shirt. Yeah, I mean, and I'm doing I mean, I'm selling T shirts. So you know, I'm trying to ride that line. I'm trying to you know, I'm trying to. I don't want to be like I'm not doing this just so I can make some money. I'm doing it so like you know, like my whole goal with the bus was just to have people stop and think for a second, be like, what what is he even talking about? And then go, you know, listen to stuff like this and listen to other podcasts and go whatever, Google why is public Land cool or whatever that you know, whatever you're gonna go look up, but start to realize like what everybody's trying to do. But it's it is, it's it's gonna be tough to because right now that's a good analogy. Here's you know, the water is boiling, but what are you going to cook with it? I Mean, we have all these young people that are all fired up and want to help and want to do something and they're talking to everybody, and they're telling their buddies about public land and all these different things, but that it's no one sending them anywhere to go do anything and actually make a difference on the path that this needs to go. So I think that's I think that's the next step is figuring out how to utilize that. Figure it out. Five of us, we can we can play you start, We'll go around table. I mean, I think the tables are yet cool. I think hashtag built for the wall. One thing I've been thinking about a lot is is that dot com. One thing I've been thinking about a lot is um that. I mean, the whole public land thing. But a lot of us just say, you know whatever, hunting. You know, I'm a hunter, I'm a conservationists not necessarily true, um. And I think moving forward, I think just being a hunter and buying a hunting license is not enough anymore. So I think people need to take a good hard look and figure out what they what else they can do two contribute to, you know, the culture of hunting, rather than just being you know, like, oh I hunted, you know, and buy guns and ammo and I'm I support because of that, I support public lands and conservation. Yeah, well, Nail's name name five things people ought to know about that they don't know about. Pittman, Robertson's fucking one of them. Yeah, Pittman, robers Snack, Daniel Johnson. Um, I mean just like the amount of money like where, Like I mean, I would like to see an educational series about just where that money actually goes? And then like, how far does you know if say you're a resident, you buy a hunting tag for thirty five dollars, where do those thirty five dollars actually go? And how much more do we need to do to you know, pump enough money into the like into the states for them to be able to manage wildlife properly and land properly. Yeah, well, how many people that buy license know the tenants of the North American model of the wildlife conseration? Very few? In five? Um, how many of them know when they're how their money, how their tax dollars is put into Pitman Robertson, Daviel Johnson. Very few? How many of them know how to type hashtag keep it public into their most so like, but I think what you're saying, what how what do we boy, what to be cooking with a boiling water. That's what we're cooking, man, We're cooking this like thing we already got, We've already had this beautiful thing that's working and working very well. That there's healthy lands, there's healthy ecosystems, there's healthy wildlife populations. There's a bunch of passionate people that love those things. But there's like a hollow shell there that's hollow at some level. I mean, I wrote a piece on pitt and Robertson for Patient Sunny Magazine, and I interviewed just hundred hundreds of that all the way down to my dad and my uncle, and I just asked him of this, the simple question, what is Pittman Robertson? What is the Wildlife Frustration Act? What is it? And hundred people that know what it was? And that and these are just regular hunting folks that my dad didn't know what it was. He's been paying into it since nineteen sixty. He taught me a hunt. Um guarantee, he wouldn't even know what the North American Mala life contravation even is. Um. But his son is boiling on public lands and boiling all this stuff and so my son may not boil on it, but he's gonna know what it is if he wants to go hunting. If he doesn't, then fine. But but I think that's that's my opinion. Anybody else will tell me I'm stupid. I think it's paramount that you get the information out there in a way that's digestible for the average joe. I think that's why podcasting has been such a huge thing for me. The majority of my education and understanding anything that has to do with conservation of public lands comes from in large part the media or podcast and just from other podcasts, to where when I was in the field, that stuff was readily available, that information was there for me to listen to in an entertaining way. It's like the waters boiling, what are you gonna cook with it? Well, I think huge part of that has to be just making a really complex issue digestible for the average joe. And that's why I think these conversations are so important. Case you got anything for us, Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it boils down to edg edging and like there's so many guys I know that you know, I grew very conservative, their conservative, but they followed that party and so whatever that party says they buy into no matter what. They don't even know what I means. So he's just like, yep, we the states should take back their federal the lands. And it's like, no, wait, hold on, let's talk about that dad. But another thing is, um, you know, I was at the b h A rendezvous in Bois you with you and uh I there and Patagonia had a big presidence there was that the owner that was there found super cool guy, told a really cool story. But I saw people comment on posts and stuff after like why is b h A supporting Patagonia, Like Patagonia is trying to shut down grizzly bear hunt this grizzly bear hunting and this and that there they're against like hunting, and you know, maybe I don't know where they stand on hunting, to be honest with you, but guess what, Patagonia has a big, giant audience and they're powerful company and they want the same things we want, right they want public lands. So let me probably stop you there and I'll say I don't think because I've I've talked to the patagony folks at that in depth about this. There against predator hunting. Okay, they told me they're against predator hunting, flat out, word forward. So what do we think about that? Do we agree with that? No, not really, bears coots wills, they're against it, flat out that there is against that as we are state transfers. So did we just be like, but there are four public lands and and your van and archer did see what happened in Utah, Jason Schaefez, So what do we do we do about that? Well, it's just going back to what we said about, you know, like not not agreeing with everything, you know, but agreeing with some things and coming to the table with those with those commonalities. Right, Patagonia might be against predator hunting, but there are four public lands and that's what we're trying to fight for right now. So I think, yeah, we should all be able to have open and honest conversations just like you were talking about, and let's go through the bs and and you know, and get those commonalities. There's a lot of people to enjoy public cleans. It's not just the hunters, you know, they're spikers, fisherman, canoers, rock clambers, all those people enjoy public cleans. They enjoy being out and uh yeah we might not at all see I die, but we still all want to enjoy those things together. Yeah, and that's it. I mean, what do we do with like the I don't know what the answers to what you do with that? You know, you try to educate, but first be educated yourself. So I think that's the big that's one of the bigger problems. Um. I don't know that I'm even educated enough on predator hunting as a whole. I think and taking anything as a whole and saying I'm against is stupid anyways. But at the same time, there's a lot of wildlif foiles, So I'll tell you shooting kites as good for just produces more coyouds. Um. But like like Benja said, you listen to enough podcasts. You listen to Ronella Talk or some folks that are educated on stuff J speak about it. Learned a little bit about that, and then you can dictate that back to somebody that works at Paddygoing. You might tell you that you shouldn't have hunt predators, but yeah, you're not kicking pad. You're not kicking out of the BHA fucking rendevo because yeah, he founded the company. Doesn't like bear Hunt's just not doing that. Have be foolish. Can I tell a story on the lighter side about Chinard at the b h A Rendebow, please do. So. I was just sitting on a bench outside and there's a bunch of seminars going on. I was hanging out and Van came down the hallway and he's, you know, I've watched films and different stuff about what he's done in conservation or whatever. And so I stood up, introduced myself, thanked him for what he's done for conservation all over the world. Um. I told him that I had turned a bus into my mobile hunting camp and was traveling around and had it parked over a brewery two blocks away at the Rendego and staying in there. And I'm telling him this little story and and uh, meanwhile, my brother had walked down somewhere and he was coming back and he sees me in the conversation with this guy and Vango. So you're staying in the bus and h Josh goes, yep, I gotta sleep somewhere, and the bottom laughs and then we walked away and I go that was the founder of pedagon. He's like really, he's like, the only thing I said to him was not sleep somewhere, but you're welcome. Thanks. Yeah, it's for conversations like that. It's like riting, rioting conversations that brings Yeah, talking about the legend out probably the only time he'll be able to meet the founder of, you know, one of the largest companies in the world. Yeah, you gotta sleep somewhere. A bus is a bus, the buses. Bus is a busy. Yeah, I think um the reason Van one of the reasons Yvonne was there. I never asked him this and he never um told me was that he saw his group that out to a wreck. Group using conservation is like a you know, they're running that out the flagpole, you know. To celebrate. They do marches and where like wristbands and and do what they do. They did a lot of public land rallies. They did one in Salt Lake City during out the retail. They moved out to a retail to Denver, away from Salt Lake City because of the out the out outrage after shaefits and some of those other policies that those things seem impactful, but at the end of the day, Jason Schafittz got run out of town because groups like b h A and I think Yvonne was like, WHOA, here's a pretty powerful group of people that not only that not only advocate for the things they desire, but also show up and do it too. I've walked into there's two rallies. One that was directly from outdoor retailer in Salt Lake to the state capital. Attended that one, and then there was the second one that was at a town hall meeting that chaef has had cotton on Heights, which I also attended. And the really interesting thing is there's a lot out of people that certainly disagreeing and you know, protesting other things, but the one commonality where everybody at that rally came together, regardless if you were in Hunter Orange or if you were in um you know, your ri I flip flops and whatever the case may be, everybody came together for the public lands component of what Jason Schaffitz had introduced. I thought that was very interesting because, particularly in in utah Um, that doesn't happen a lot. So there's this one event which despite our differences, we aligned pretty well on that, and that that's that crowd of Patagonia and yeah, and some of those other folks that are out outdoor retailer. They're not hunters by any means, but they are certainly outdoor recreationists. So that was a that was very unique to see from my standpoint standing there just gonna looking around and taking it all in. That was a very strong common you know ball that we all shared with the question is why is that important? Why does that matter? Yeah? I mean I think it's important to have unique perspectives from diverse groups that are all utilizing these public plans, right, I mean, they're they're meant to be managed by for multi use for a lot of different reasons. Specifically, why that matter? Why does that matter to hunters? Specifically that we have the common bond about that. Why is that? Why is that coming together matter? For hunting gives us gives a way more powerful voice. Yeah, Yeah, it's it's a more dynam common it's a more dynamic voice because it's bigger, it's more diverse, it's more unique, and it's helpful to move these initiatives that we are trying to you know, dissect and look at and if we can get that crowd, which I don't know the numbers, but I would assume that crowd is larger than our crowd, many millions of people, larger, h and many millions millions of dollars larger, probably more billions of dollars probably the better term to use there. But I think it's important because we're four million hunters. Whatever the number we are, we're a very small percentage of the overall population in this country. But as we all are well aware, a lot of what we do will be in the future, maybe not as much now, but it will be in the future dictated by public sentiment. In public sentiment will will drive public policy, and public policy will drive what the hell we get to do when we go outside and the folks that clothe that are I describe it like this, It's almost like Van Sinnard and the owner of X Hunting Company, or me and the dude that wears Patagonia and goes Van camping and where's Chocos and his announce retailer type of guy. We started saying, Brian, you are Chaka had a pair. We started the same spot, right, everybody starts at the same spot with wildlife and and lands. They're like, we care about this ship, all right, you say, you're always staying at the same spot and you're talking to each other like you care about wild life and lands, recreational use of these lands. They're like, yeah, how about you? Yeah cool? And then they turned You turned back to each other, and what you're a hunter and they're out direct person. They start walking away from each other, and as you walk away you forget. The further you get from each other, the more you forget where he started and that there there are common alleys, and the farther you get, then you refuse to even turn on and face each other anymore. It's two, you're too far away. And I think that's what what's happened with us. We started, We've started at a place we all care about these animals, specifically the animals probably more than anything, but the lands as well. But we're just walking in different directions. And about the only time we turned to face each other's when we're about to argue about some lion that got shot and what well you're talking about. What that signifies is turned around and facing each other and talking to each other about something and maybe walking a couple of steps back towards the center where we started and the yavan Jinnard showing up to the b h A. Rennie views like maybe like a shuffle on a few steps more forward to that goal and finally getting back to the center together would signify that group affecting public opinion and public policy, because that is that that's the group that is so closely aligned with what we do that it's it's hilarious that they they disagree with some of the stuff that we do, because these are people that love you go outside, they love to recreate, they spend their money on it. They think about these things, think about conservation, they use that term, and for whatever reason they just disagree with X number of things and hunting and so how do we get them to just turn and walk and turn and faces and walk towards us. Well, public lands is one hell of a good way to do that. And when it comes down to when somebody is trying to vote down all bear hunting in the United States because um trophy hunting is terrible, just like they did in British Columbia, maybe Vans and Art might stand up be like, wait, I don't know that I agree with this, but let's talk about it. Let's try to figure it out and maybe that saves something along lawns. I think equally important is having someone like like you want to stand up is the possibility that somebody on the other side who would otherwise be opposed to hunting now maybe has a friend um or some personal experience with someone who is on the other side of that equation, and then when they go to participate in voting on something like you know, banning a bear hunt, they can say, well, I met this guy Joe and he hunts bears, and he had me over to his house. We ate some bear together and he showed me the process. And I think that's so valuable, just just that just even that connection, to be able to have a personal connection to somebody on the other side helps so much in seeing the commonality the things that we have in common with them. Yeah, there's only there's more common eyes than anybody. I want to admit at any level. Those commonalities are if we don't leverage them in, we're missing out. And that's what public lands is like, the leverage almost in that conversation to be like, we all care about this thing, you just happen to want to climb around on it, and we just happened to want to go take some stuff off and eat that stuff. Yeah. Um, and and talking about that it is important. Then what's your what's your most what's your fondest public lan memory? Mhm, it's a good question. It happened in Utah. Unfortunately. Hey, sorry mam, if you're listening to this. I had a buddy growing up named Mike Li so sorry Mike if you listening to this. I was really into Bruce Lee when I was grown up. Yeah, listen, cousin, Miles, cousin. Ye, my fondest memory. There's a lot of cliche ones, um man. I think my fondest memory on public lands in my life is going to the Western Hunting Expo for the first time. I was like two or three years ago, and um, I'm from the East Coast. Like, being a Western hunter, it was always something that like I saw in the movies and I thought was cool, Like there's buffalo out there, and I saw it and saw it in loss stuff. I watched that there's buffalo. Take your hat off when you say that, um, And so being a Western hunter was kind of always I never hunted. I didn't hunt outside of the East Coast until I was twenty something early early twenty and went to Yaomi Shine Island, like, this is cool, man, I'd love to get into this. How could I be a part of this? And being a part of it finally came when I went to the Western Hunting Expo, put in that those five dollar draw as they do there, and I got. I drew an elk tag there uh for Pankish Lake, Utah. And it was a coveted fifteen you know, late season rifle tag where big bulls running around. And that was one of the first times where I truly got to take opportunity, the opportunity to dive headfirst into what would be a like an epic public land hunt. I be hunted public land in the West prior to that, but never It's something that I felt like, Hey, this tag is a special thing. This tag is something that you know that I need to have some reverence for. And so I went. I had a kid. Uh, I had my son in October, and the tag was for the first week in November, second week in November, and I thought, for sure, there's no way I'm going on this hunt. I'm not gonna leave my wife with a month or a month old baby, our first baby, and run off and go hunting. But her and I had a little conversation about what what I just said. It's like, hey, look, this is special. This is something to me that signifies like maybe my coming of age and being able to be a Western hunter and take part in this special thing. And she's like, go, I'll be fine, Like I'll figure it out, to go, get it done, come back, bring the meat. We'll be fine. Don't screw it up. And so so I went and we didn't have time to scout because I was, you know, having to having a kid, and so well who was that? Would I answer? It's hawks pretty him on the podcast Cardinal sin Right. We always like to bring those people on anyway, I um, I had a son, and that that was the first time I did when I having a son, And so there was also that way in on me too, was the first time I had to go away and miss this for this little human you know. Um we went there, no scouting. Me and uh Shawn of Gray who runs Total Archer Challenge where we are right now and um pitched up with campus wall tent in the Diston National Forest and kind of just went to walking around without having scattered. We had a little local intel that some bulls windered in this valley where we were and there'd be some stuff there. But I ended up killing a giant bull. After six days of you know, hunting the road system, riding around glass and the hike and doing the thing, killed a giant bull, stuffed and then the YETI cooling and the back of the truck and drove it back to to my kid and my wife, and um, that's when I think, driving back there, I was like the most proud I've ever been to be a hunter, you know, and then thinking about my son, thinking about like I just did that thing, and I can be a part of making sure that's to live for him when he's of age to go do it. So that was mine. This is, uh, this cliche as these stories can be. It's pretty cool, awesome story. I love hearing that stuff, man, That's what that's to me, what evokes emotion and connects to people and maybe that makes them rethink their next move on taking this faction. Yeah, it's funny enough, funny enough. That was in Utah, right, and that's National Forest and what's not who's who? Who owns the National Forest? Federal government. Um. And so yeah, I mean those opportunities could go quickly go away, and you know, you go to the hunting expo and some of that land gets sold, and maybe there's half the amount of tags this year. Maybe in ten years there's a third the amount of tags, and then by the time my son's twenty five years, well maybe there's two. Maybe there's none. Um. And that's a reality because I'm sure there's a whole lot less tags there right now and there was twenty years ago. When there's a whole lot more public plan in the state of Utah. Sam. Yeah one ah, yeah, it's it's right here on the wall behind me. Uh. So growing up, I grew up in South Dakota, and I didn't really big game hunt when I was younger, So it's um. When I was really little, we did a lot of pheasant hunting. I didn't pheasant how much. I just walked in the fields. Um. Like my dad told a story to the Prime crew yesterday that I think I was like seven or eight and I went on a peasant hunt with them. Um, and my I asked my brother if he had grabbed my boots and he said yes, and we got there and I had to right boots, so I had one that was my left foot was a right also right boot, but it was bigger. But anyway, so, um, I started, you know, pheasant hunting was really young, and then we got into duck hunting and I was a you know, lived in breathe waterfall hunting all you know, all the way through middle school and high school and college. I mean I chose my um college based on being able to be close to some of the best duck hunting the world. So you know, I went to North Dakota State and hopefully my parents won't listen to this, but like my junior and senior college, I think I was duck hunting like four or five days a week, you know, showing up the class with face paint on and like blood on my hands and like feathers like you know, stuck to my pants and stuff. So um yeah, I lived and breathe water fall unting. But after moving west and getting more into big game hunting. Uh, I went home to do a white tail hunt and I was able to look at I was able to look at the country in a completely different way, and I wanted to do all in public land, and uh, but you know, going from looking for ponds and different stuff and trying to find birds and fields and figure out routes or whatever it was, you know, looking at maps and looking at different like travel routes and stuff for big game and you know, looking for white tail. And I had a gap between photo jobs, and so I had like, I was like, well, I've got twenty one days to just like figure this out if I want to, And so I just poured myself into it, and anything within a half hour of you know, where I was basing out of, I would go. I would look at it in the map like kind of cross off which ones were good and which ones you know, look better and whatever, and then I drive out there and like walk out. And it was during the hunting season. I didn't really care if I scared deer. I just wanted to go learn to learn the country. And so I probably put you know, seventy hiking on these little chunks of public ground and I finally walked into one and found this huge, you know, community scrape and I just like immediately backed out of there. And it was like three days later that the wind was finally right and I went in and clambered my way up a tree with a tree stand. I was hanging a tree was like the size of a number two pencil and there was no cover on us. So I was hanging like thirty feet up. I was hanging in this tree like thirty feet up, and it was one of those trees where like when your heart beat, like the tree would sway, and uh, it just happened to all come together that more. And the deer that's hanging in the bus walked by and I, you know, shot him at twenty two yards wherever, and he ran under the tree and fell over. And like, I don't know if I've ever been more proud of just like the amount of time and effort I put into learning a new area and looking something, you know, a completely different way, and uh, having that success and all of that came um from being able to access public land. So Benjamin, Um, I have so many, you know, I'm sure, like like all of you, so many experiences on public land. UM. The one that kind of stood out to me um as you guys started talking about the stories that you've had in the past, I was the first elk that I ever killed over the counter unit in Utah public land. UM, I was working full time. I didn't have near the time to hunt that I do now. I was just trying to get in a couple of hours every evening, and every day I would get off work and get in my truck and I just as fast as I could go up the mountain up in to the Dixie National Forest, trying to get onto, uh, onto some elk. And I did that pretty much every day the hunt. And it was the second or third last day of the hunt. UM, I decided to just check on this little piece of public I've been in there ten or fifteen times during that hunt, and parked and just ran to the top of that little piece. UM just caught a little five point bowl coming through. I was able to to take that bowl. Um, just this little teeny sliver a public land surrounded by private and I just remember, um the validation of getting it done on such a low success rate unit, but also just being grateful that there was this little piece um amongst all, amongst all the private, that I could just run away to after work every night and run in there as fast as I could and just try to get an hour in before I got dark. And uh that was the first out that I ever killed on my own, no other help, nobody around, and so it was just really uh validating and a really fulfilling experience for me. And it never would have happened without that little section of public land being blocked off. The public land island just I mean, it's literally can't be two hundred acres. It's probably more like hundred acres, small, small chunk, so a million stories like everybody else, I'm sure, but Casey, yeah, not one really sticks out in my mind. But um, I really had a lot of fun this year turkey hunting, and uh, me and my little brother Logan that films for us now, would just go out every morning. We probably went out ten days in a row, close together. But yeah, we found this little chunk of public land with our on X maps. But it was really cool too, uh to find this little chunk of paradise. And it was paradise. There was Turkey's ever all over Goblin. There was deer in there, moves like, and I was just a maze that that place existed because I had actually lived up by this piece and I had always thought all of this country was was all privately owned and uh, obviously, with the helps of our on X map, we're able to find it. But we had we had an absolute blast. And uh, you know, it wasn't the hunting that was so fun. It was just experiencing something that everybody can experience if they want. And another story is just about a place I grew up hunting and now thinking back, like I have so many experiences with my dad up there hunting elk and it's the first place I ever took my own took an elk with a bow, and uh, I just made a lot of good memories up there. And now that I'm my kids are getting to the age, now we're gonna go make memories up there. And once again, it's just these are these are experiences that anybody can go and enjoy, not even just hunting. Just go out and enjoy this this land that we have and pass that down to generation generation, you know. And that's my story. You should stick to it. It be mack boy. My mind goes back a few years back to when I was a kid. That really resonates with me to this day. But I can remember trapes around with my dad, pays a hunting to start out with, for sure, when I just got my hunting license, and that was kind of my first crack at getting out there and chasing stuff around on public lands. But the one that really sticks out to me is growing up in Oregon, we would always go east to the Blue Mountain Range and started out as an archery hunter, but before I was able to even hunt, I just go and kind of camp with him while he hunted around. But what really has left and impact is, like many of us, he was working hard to support his family. He was very passionate, hard working, wired kind of a a guy. And sometimes it's are to unlind when you're in the daily flows of life, and you know, like a lot of us, we get stressed out about maybe a job that we don't love or some situations that have been challenging and created some setbacks force. And I can vividly remember when we would get up to our elk camp how the dynamics of his personality would change. As soon as we got camp set, he literally would just turn into like this different person that I wouldn't see as much at home because of those things that get in the way of life. And that was just like something that has always resonated with me was how much I loved that moment with my dad and my family, just being out there on our little piece of heaven, you know, and that was our mountain. It was everybody's mountain, but it was our mountain when you're a kid and you're out there with your dad and your uncle and man that To this day, I always think of how important that place was for my growth as a kid and development as a hunter, and more importantly just as a building a relationship with my dad, and that that little area has a ton of nostalgia. It's a really hard area to draw a tag now, and I hope at some point in my life I can go hunt it one more time now that I'm not a resident there, but without a doubt, that changed who I became. And it's certainly a really big reason why I'm so passionate about continue to have access. So you know, everybody that can go have their own little throwing a little mountain or a little piece of property that they kind of feel like it's there's yeah, there's some id there's ideas there that just the idea. Man like I grew up in Maryland, of course, and uh, we had public land there and we hunted it a lot. And then I got a job and moved into well. First I moved the d C Washington d C. That was terrible. And then I moved to Illinois, UM where most of the land is privatized. Most of the land's farm country, most of it is has corn on it, and most of it most of the giant white tails are under lock and key. Yeah. Um. And when I moved there as a as a just a die hard whit tail hunter coming up, I'm like, I'm moving to the mecca. Man, I'm moving to the white tail mecca. This is gonna be like my white tail hunting time. I never I lived there three and a half years, didn't kill the white tail one. I got to hunt him two or three times when I begged off an outfitter to hunt in his back forty. And then from there I moved to Texas. And in Texas, UH hunted public land twice, once for doves and I got pelted with a few pellets. Didn't shoot any doves with those pellets, but I took a couple myself from another hunter, and um. The second time was hunting hogs on a on a different place, out of a piece of ground outside Austin, Texas, and just only saw hunters and no pigs. And so I've spent probably the last seven or eight years in this weird vacuum where you'd wake up in the morning and you just don't have there's a feeling is just not there. And that's not not being hyperbolic about that feeling. I mean that that's truly you wake up in the morning, you're like, if I want to, I could find that public plan island and go out there and just sit and see if a bull walks by, even if it's not hunting season, you know. Or I could go to my mountain up in Oregon and that like that option when it's removed from your life. If that's what you love to do, everybody in this bus loves to do that. That that should take a toll on you, and it has on me in a lot of ways. And so I can imagine. I think if somebody said, like, hey, what happens of all public land goes away? I'm like, well, I live there. I live in Texas and it's like two percent public land. It's a big state. It's a bit in the two percent public land they have is it's pretty messy. Um. And if it's easy to get to. It's hard to access, and it's hard to get to. It generally is a little easier to access, but it but it's a nuclear option. That's the nuclear option then. And there's a lot of really nice paved roads in South Texas where there's no there's three houses in fifty square miles. There's really nice paved roads because oil trucks drive on them. And I started notice that when I hunted some big ranches down that way. So, um, animals are the animals are supposed to be. They're supposed to belong to everybody, and they're supposed to be held and trust by the state they happen to be standing in. And there's a few states that aren't trustworth these others when it comes to that. So you guys, everybody here grew up essentially in the West, in places where this stuff is um part of your life. It's part of your waking hours of the day that it's it's out there for you. And as somebody who lives in a place where it's not really there for you, that sucks, man sucks. So yeah, I'd say go find your piece of public land and use it as much as you possibly can, because it's not not there for everybody in this world, that's for sure. Anything else everybody like that's pretty good, pretty good, pretty good. Round cooler discussion was sitting around and sitting around around table around a square cooler or is the rectangle correct to? Um? Yeah, I'm glad that, uh, we're all together an industry where everybody cares. You know, there's nobody in this nobody here that's a wildlife biologist or legislator or professional lobbyist or anything like that, or you can speak to you know hr five seven two three four eight one dashed seven and what that actually Yeah, well I've read it and it's it's a doozy case. Um, but that's not While always said that getting educated is important, that's not the point of of what brings people together at some level. So what's the what's the what's the action item? Everybody, just give give one action item for whoever's listening to this, and maybe for yourself too. I'll just say, ye, have become more educated with what's going on, specifically what uh with what can possibly happen if the states take back takes to back the land, and what's happened in the past. Yeah, that's that's second point is an important one. What's happened in the past, especially in Utah. Yeah, because that it's happened already. It has Man, I'd say, uh, I talked to somebody on the other side of the coin, or somebody that we have things in common with, you know, maybe your palate wears a patagony best or ari I flip flops whatever. Build on that common ground and use that as a platform to help them understand, um, what we do, and also as a platform understand the way they feel and why they feel that way. I like it, Sam, you got anything deep super deep deep bus thoughts. Um. I mean I was gonna say, you know, if you want to join some sort of a conservation organization, it's a good way to get educated. But above and beyond that, UM, in a world where everything's out there, I think we need to do a good job of just portraying ourselves and being our own pr agents and UM portraying hunting and the reason we want to keep public lands in public hands, UM portraying that as a very positive thing. Back action item, Well, if you live out west, this is going to be a pretty easy one. But I would just say get out to your favorite public clean spot, take it all in, you know, and and kind of do a little self reflection. What does it truly mean to you? What would it mean if you didn't have the ability to go there? And if you're not in a state or you know, an area that provides much of that, make a point to go somewhere that has it, you know, get out. I mean, we've met so many people this weekend that have come from Virginia, Kansas, Nebraska, but just you know, eastern Midwest states that they haven't spent a lot of time out here in Montana. And man, if you want to, you want to really open your eyes to the beauty of some of these public plans, Montana is probably one of the better places to go check out because there's so much access just right outside of Bowsman or Missoula. But go, uh go check it out, you know. And again, a little self reflection, a little little therapeutic moment in the woods of public land spot, I think could change your your trajectory on what you want to do as far as taking that next step of action like we're all talking about. Yeah, I would just say, be be active and be pro nuance, be anti bullshit and surge out perspective, search out the perspectives of that matter. And and and uh, guys like Shane Mahoney, guys like Steve Rinella, Guys that have perspectives that matter. And that's perspectives that are measured and that are delivered in such a way that, um, it seems like they care about you. Because there's a lot of people in the news media that don't care about you. There's a lot of people in the hunting industry. They don't give a shit about you. Um, they care about themselves. Ben, She's crazy one of them. There's one in every group. It's that's I don't care about you. Find somebody that cares about you. And then that's more educated than you, or that's been doing it longer, and uh and and follow them and listen what they have to say, and then um, pass that on, man, pass the love on. That's it. Man. It's like one in the morning, isn't it perfect? All right, We're gonna go to bed. It seems like a good time to wrap it up is we're just gonna crawl into the bunk beds. I got enough room. We're all sleeping in the bus bust, sleepover party, slumber party. Bye. That's it. That is all Episode number twenty three in the books. Thank you too, you guys from Hushing Shed Crazy the bus guy for joining me. UM. I'm blown away by by the thoughtfulness of these people, by the conversations that we're able to have, UM, and by the learning that we're able to do from both each other and from everybody that listens to this thing. So without getting too sappy on everybody, without getting to UM no teary eyed about the subject. I've got a son. It's two years old, and I hope you can listen to this in fifteen years and understand what his dad felt in this place and time about public lands and why they were so special to him and the people that he surrounded himself with. So hopefully all that comes through and came through an episode number twenty three. So I really appreciate you all listening. UM. Please stick around for more podcasts. Please keep commenting, Please keep sending in messages, Please keep criticizing, please keep praising, Please keep doing what you do out there in the world. I really truly appreciate it. And for every single person that listens to this, every single person that goes out and goes hunting and thinks of a better way. My sinceres thank you to you. That's it. We'll see you next time on the Hunting clo

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