00:00:11 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today, I'm joined by my good buddy and co host Dirck Durham. Oh hey, there, how you doing so? I think it was just we just turned into twenty twenty five and it didn't take very long for the Elk cunning world to be kind of shook up by a post from our good buddy Paul Brooks. And I consider him a good friend. You know, we used to build them turkey calls back in the day and work with them. When we talk with them, we're cordial with them. But I do with the direction we're going, I do want to make he does, you know, run a call company or help work for a call company? So I just want to put all out there. I want this to be a normal conversation with all the facts light out there. But he made a post. I believe it was on February second. I woke up and I couldn't turn on I shouldn't. People are gonna judge me, But I flicked the Facebook a post about a big giant bowl. I flip over to Instagram just because I'm look, you know, oh there's another bolt flipped the TikTok. Somehow it's there. I you know, you couldn't go anywhere on February second without seeing January's post or yeah, excuse me, January second, you couldn't. You couldn't go anywhere without seeing a post or text messages like if it wasn't for social like I didn't have to do anything because I was getting, you know, hundreds of texts. You know what do I know? Where was it killed? Was it Washington? You know, the list goes on and on. So we want to talk a little bit about this world record potential, I would say potential world record out that was recently killed in the state of Washington by Casey Brooks Bo's dad. And you know, I've known Casey since I've ever started this. I can remember being a little, a little dummy working out of the corner of Corey Miller's booth down there at Portland, and a guy came up and I'd had my magazine article, you know, my my three seventy Roosevelt, and it started asking me, and we had a little conversation and went back and and Corey's that you know who that was? I said, don't have a clue who that was, you know, And ended up being Casey Brooks and we were talking about about big Elk and wear, and so we've known him for a long time and I just wanted to wanted to you know, we we battle this a little bit behind the scenes, like I want to be one hundred percent transparent in this podcast. Me and Dirt have the means, we have the funds within our company. We we buy tags at times, right either landowner tags, outfit or tags. And so I just want to open this wide open and just talk about all the all the pieces of it. But so Bow makes a post on January second about the bowl, does a write up about his dad and some of his accomplishments, and then like anything that's big or or you know, you know, kind of jaw dropping. You know, I'll kind of ows you it wasn't very long, what a day or two. And then the the uh, the opposite, you know, the the naysayers, the people that had something to throw, you know, try to try to put chinks in the armor and break the story apart. 00:03:04 Speaker 2: I almost feel like if you shoot a three hundred inch bull, people start just throwing rocks like oh, it must be nice to hunt private land or whatever I mean. And then this thing is you know, potentially a three or a four hundred and eighty inch bull in that score, so you know there's lots of lots of crap being thrown. 00:03:22 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, not to this. I don't want to make this story about myself. But that same three seventy bowl, I killed it and then had a trip immediately to the Bob Marshall. So I killed it around home, got the tax nermous and then like two days later took off. Well, my good buddy John Davis was my guide there on that hunt and in Montana, Yeah, in Montana, and he started to ask me, you know, we're good friends, but he was just my guide. He was working for an outfitter and that's how he booked the hunt, and he had killed a couple three fifty tight bowls in that same area. And He's like, so of the stories happened yet, And I'm like, oh no, it's just been squeaky clean, Like no, you know, just I killed a big good Yeah. I get home and I killed it at night. I killed it using my work key at the time, I worked for the DNR. I killed it on this area. I drove my truck into a walk in and by the time I was done, I was fighting with the entire internet over like where it was killed, how it was killed, you know, and it was just like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. So like anything, you know, at that time, I think it was a number two bowl in the state. So there's just like controversy and and I think people by nature are jealous. But yeah, we just wanted to kind of to jump into that and and talk about kind of all sides and then in my opinion, our opinion kind of like make it go full circle and and maybe say what we think, you know, why there was so much you know, either jealousy or frustration you know, with the bowl, And we'll kind of save that for the end. So one thing that that like maybe a question that that encompasses this whole whole ordeal. And and somebody started to post, you know, when the naysayers start coming out, they're like, so you to tell me if you had the same means you wouldn't be doing the same thing. And I'm curious how you would answer that, would you if you had And we're gonna get into the financial stuff and not later, but like if you had the ability and it meant the same to your checkbook and you had the ability, would you go hunt this bowl? Oh? 00:05:22 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would go hunt that bowl. Now, there's a lot of speculation on where and how this bowl was killed, and may or may not agree with that, and it may not really serve the way I want to hunt and elk, but I would definitely try to take advantage of the way he got that tag if I had those means, absolutely, because I love elk hunting right and I feel like anybody who who loves elk hunting with the amount of passion that you and I both have, if you have the means to like hunt elk all the time, really really really really big elk why, I don't know. I don't think there's a lot of people who would say, Nope, nope, I I'd rather go try to shoot five points every season instead of being able to go hunt some crazy places. You know, they'd rather, you know, fight off, fight off the Orange Army, per se. You know, there's just public Land has got a lot of folks on a hunting and it's hard, it's a grind. And then if if you have that amount of means, you know, financially to go hunt let's say the most premium Indian reservations or these these governor tags, raffle tags whatever. You know, you're not competing with a whole lot of other hunters. You know, there's you know, you're gonna be on public land a lot of times, but you're you're not fighting the crowds. So and then you just have the opportunity to see big, giant, mature animals. And and I think I think all of us would would be okay with or would want to go do that if you have the means. I mean, that's that's my opinion. 00:07:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've got a little different answer. And and we've talked about this, you know before, I'm like, I want to say no, And we're going to get into some more of the facts, which it may make more sense when you come and look at this question. You know, I don't let me rephrase that. I don't know if they're facts. I have seen pictures and videos of where this bowl was at prior, but I don't know, you know that they're factual or you know, around the whole situation. But I don't know if I would. It doesn't like for me, I get excited about killing a four point buck, you know, way up on the mountain as far from the stinking side by side as I can. For some reason, you know, we're five mile hiking. I don't know why right now. And that's where I love. That's why I love hunting, like it can be something different for everybody. You know, it doesn't have to be defined as one thing. It doesn't. You know, what gets one guy excited doesn't get the other guy excided, which is great because I think it keeps us all spread out hunting different ways. But like for me, hunting, I want to I want and I'm not saying there wasn't a lenge. I guess this is where there's gonna be a lot of because I don't know the whole story. I want, like I want like a physical challenge, and I don't know why it's turned into that. For me, I want to feel like I beat you know, the animal in its own like at its best, I guess, right, And so for me, yeah, like, well, I will say wintering wintering animals like a buck that's lived his whole life in the cemetery. You know, it seems like cemeteries attracted you know, golf courses, but like walking out on like whole nine and shooting the biggest buck that's ever lived, just like well versus if I could take that buck and like where you know the famous Popeye, the forty inch buck that David Long, you know, like because you would disappear, nobody can ever find him in his high country, but like winter range, they would find him. And I'm like, it's almost like killing two different animals, right, Like the one up in the high country would be different. But when he's forced to come down in the sage brush, like man, I just at that point love to look at him. I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but. 00:09:04 Speaker 2: Well, no, and I agree with that. Like I'm not saying I would want to go hunt these things, these these elk or deer in their most vulnerable places, Like if I would be able to get that tag, I'd love to be able to search the high country for them, or you know where they're spending their septembers in October is now if they migrate out. I mean, that's that's a completely different conversation and thought process. But I will say, though, I back to your point of like getting excited to shoot a four point in the middle of nowhere public land, I agree one hundred percent with you. I do love that. I kind of made the comment about five points. I will say like some years I've had, like, for instance, like a landowner tag in New Mexico and I had, you know, elk hunt in Idaho and whatever, so on and so forth. But the most excited on those years I've ever you know, of the hunts, I've been excited to go on or back to my just my, my, my Idaho public land whatever middle of nowhere, probably one of the most wolf infested units in Idaho. I kind of look forward to that the most. I feel like it's like you're you're really like success there gives you the best feel goods, you know. It's like, man, I worked hard, and I really figured this out. And it's funny. My wife like the first time I had a New Mexico outfit or tag to where we could I wasn't outfit land inner tag. My wife's like, well, if you should a really big one, you can't get it mounted and put in the house. That's cheating. My wife said this, that's cheating. But if you kill one up, you know in Idaho, you know, then then you can get that one head mounted. And I'm like hey, now hold on, you. 00:10:41 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, your your wife's now the judge of what what counts as a trophy and not. 00:10:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you know, she always keeps me grounded. But but I will say that that was that was a kind of a funny, funny thought process. But like I was always like, oh, I almost I almost feel like you're right there. 00:10:59 Speaker 1: So yeah, no, it's it's weird. And I walk in my house, you know, I get to look at some of the mounts, and there there's the Mount Emily bowl that Whep me and you killed together, you know, with the rightfle and it's a great bull. It's the one over the fireplace. I'm like, that's big. But I turned to my right and it's the bowl I killed Mountain View in Washington. That's similar size, a little bit smaller. But I for some reason in my head, that one's it holds a little bit. It doesn't have the asterisk next to it because I drew it through the special permits. Right, it was still a similar season, limited number of hunters. I still had the same advantage. But for some reason, I'm like, well, at least I didn't have to like pay for the opportunity, Like I literally drew a twelve dollars and fifty cent you know tag, just out of the random draw. So I don't know why. In my head it's just something like, yeah, get paid for that one. You know, you got this one the regular way. But in the reality, the elk had the same chance. I had the same chance, Like it was no different of an advantage. Besides, I probably wouldn't have got the Emily tag. Well I know I wouldn't have got the Emily take. I don't have any points, you know, to get it any other way. So it just, yeah, there's a little bit of like these special tags. You know, we've we've got to hunt New Mexico a little bit on landowner tags. We've got to hunt, you know, Colorado. Back in the day, I would buy a few deer landowner tags and it's still awesome and I love to do it. And I would be a liar if I said I I didn't love those, and I would still do it because I love to just be out there and hunt. But I haven't got what I would consider like these super special tags. Right, I just get a ticket to the show. I'm still hunting along fifty other guys in Mount Emily, I'm still hunting along, you know, the other tagholders during a set season that the fish and wildlife sets because there's the best chance of escape, you know, Like we still got some of these odds against us, and I haven't got a true true like premium. I guess my elk tag this year is pretty premium, but just just like late season and I do, I walk in and I don't know why. I maybe with age it'll finally dissipate. But I look in there like, oh, that was a public land bull over the countertag. Oh that's a that was a landowner tag or an outfitter tag, like eh not not you know, you just knock it down a rung on the ladder. 00:13:06 Speaker 2: Right right, I feel like there's like, like you said, we get a like an outfitter tag or a lander tag, You're still just got a ticket to the show, right You're still you're still navigating public land with a lot of other folks. Like on my ol hunt this year in Oregon, Dude, we see it. We saw so many people. They were people across the canyon right where we spotted the elk the night before. We're right where they're supposed to walk there's people walking through there and sitting down and stinking it up and blowing out any opportunity there. There's people over at another vantage point looking for the same bull we're looking for, where there's people walking up on us, standing next to us one our viewpoint that standing there talking and looking in like, hey, you gotta be quiet. We're trying trying to get an elk here and they're talking out loud, and and you know, looking for spikes. You know they can be out there. You know, these are all the spike hunters. And and we did see another big bull tag hunter over there in that other vantage point. But meant there was people everywhere, so you know, it's not like we got some you know, Okay, come through the the pearly gates here and now you're in el Kevin and there's nobody else. It's it's still that So it's not that level of of I mean, it's a great opportunity that you know, not everybody can get, I guess, but it's a. 00:14:19 Speaker 1: But shoot it. I mean, if you but let's say you did have a state wide tag, you could have killed the Big Bowl. We were watching the night before while we were all scouting to try to find it. 00:14:29 Speaker 2: Right, right, we could have just pulled the trigger right then if we'd have the next level tag. 00:14:32 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's just that difference of like, all right, these elk aren't dumb. Pressure shows up the Big Bowl we were watching like you knowwhere to be seen the next day because he had forty people around him the night before, you know, not really forty. I'm exaggerating, but yeah, it's just that's where it gets back to these like super premium tags, Like there's a huge difference on having a great tag that's but you're hunting along everybody else, but like being able to hunt the dates in between seasons or just any time you want. It's it's I think a huge difference. 00:15:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, well what do you what do you think set everybody off with this post? Anyway? Can can you can you elaborate on what the post said? 00:15:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will. I was gonna get there a little bit at the end. Okay, I wanted I really wanted to. I don't want to put that. I really wanted the touch on the legal side because it's important to me and we've been advocates for this. I've mentioned on this podcast many times, like I ultimately don't care at the end of the day, as long as it's legal, Like yeah, I can have my opinion, like yay, nay, Like I wouldn't. 00:15:36 Speaker 2: Do it legal it's a company me, but you know it's legal. 00:15:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm I'm so tired of the division within the hunting you know world. I shouldn't say industry is a stupid word because there's not very many of us. To me, it matters like the hunting world, people that participate in hunting. There's so much division, you know, on this season versus that season. I want more time, you guys, you know your weapon gets more time, you know, meal deer over elk elk over meal deer, weapon choices, weapon restrictions, like if it's legal it We always complain about fish and wildlife organizations, but I guess at some point we're gonna have to trust them a little bit, Like if the fishing game have decided that that is a legal method of take and the seasons are based on it, Like at some point, I'm not the judge anymore. Right, I can say I don't like it, or I think we should fight for some change, but at some point, like my only measuring stick is the judge in the jury is like is it legal or is it not? And I should be done with it right, you know, aside from so one thing we go back to, like all right, the raffle tickets were bought for for an area and and so he had a legal tag, he had a legal right to hunt this elk this giant bowl where it was at. So I'm assumed, you know, I've got to assume then no reason not to believe that it wasn't you know, killed over you know, more than ten ten gallons of feet if feed was even used. I have no reason to believe that, you know, up all of this caliber, like you know, there's no trespassing involved, permission to hunt on the place that lived, season dates, all of the things are, all the boxes have been checked, so it's legal. So why why would we, you know, why would I have any issues with this? And we're going to kind of wrap all that up, you know, you kind of to ask me to explain why the issue was with this. But as far as I'm concerned, it's legal, right, Like, who were we to say different? 00:17:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, we weren't there, and I just assume I assume you know, they did it, right, you. 00:17:44 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, some of the speculation and some of the pictures that the others have brought up there are I've seen two videos and I've seen three or four pictures of this bowl. You know. One it was behind like a white vinyl horse fence, kind of comes up to the fence and turns away. The second video I've seen has the bull eating out of a little I would call it a little pile of alfalpha. But you know those like danglely like I call them party lights, you know where you can kind of dangle these lights from from post to post, you know, the big big in the Yeah, they were you know, there was a picture video of the bowl, obviously a trailcam picture of a bull eating some alfalfa and then it walks out of the frame. And then a couple of pictures of the bowl. I believe one was the prior year and one was this year of the bull eating some alfalfa and some deeper snow. I don't know dates on those photos, none of that, but those are what we've seen, and so that that is what kind of stirs up some of the unrest and and the way the story was, you know, it goes against I won't say against but goes it maybe challenges as a story, I'll put it that way, a little bit more on on you know, how how everything went, but I don't. And this is where I got to make sure, you know, I don't want to be hypocritical, because I've killed a meal deer in each washing over a pile of apples. And that was pre like measured bait rules. So like I'm not joking. When we would pull up, everybody's seeing like the big bins of apples traveling you know, potatoes in like big giant bins, like. 00:19:19 Speaker 2: Literally two tons of apples. 00:19:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was literally hunting over the like the the deer stood in the pile of apples to eat the apples, sort of a pile of apples. 00:19:28 Speaker 2: But how much how many apples were there on the bait though when I hunted, Yeah, it was like the major like there was no measurement back then. It was back then like oh you could put truckload of apples. 00:19:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what I mean, Like I'm literally hunting like the ultimate bait, right apples. It smell on the top of apples. Yeah yeah yeah, so uh that you know, I've hunted deer over that and I did it once. My good buddy are good buddy orn with Tanglewood Guides invited me out and I'm like, hey, I did it once, Like this is I thing. And it kind of that was one where I had to kind of challenge my own personal you know, what I want to do for anty because there was a one eighty eight and a one eighty four buck killed that time, you know, and I'm like, oh, and there was a bigger one around and you know, invited me back, and I'm like, man, I would just assume take my wife back if I was going to come back. And he allowed my wife to come back, and we had a different blind and you know, and I've black tails around home. You know, everybody killing big black tails around home. You know, most of the time they need to. I shouldn't say everybody. Most of the black tails around home are being killed over bait, you know, in some sort of a blinder, a tree stand set up. We hunt. We hunt over bait at times, not all the time. In Kansas when we go right, it's just it's legal. And so like that's where I want to get back to, Like I don't have a single issue with baiting, you know, we We've did it at times in the past. I've did it and didn't really appreciate it, and you know the experience, and now that we're in Kansas, at times it's our best option and where Randy tells us we should be, we we are. So I don't have an issue with that as long as it's legal in that state, and you know, everything's followed. So in my opinion, like this checks the box, like as far as we know all the information we know, like this bowl was killed legally, you know, I don't have an issue with with any of it. So we will circle back and then we'll get into the rest of the stories. So you had mentioned, you know, so what was the issue er if? I don't necessarily have an issue, but one of the things that bothered me was maybe the way the post, the original post. You know, Casey let his son Bo make the post and it starts right out. It doesn't say anything like new world record. You know, my dad does it again, it's the King of l Hunting, and it goes through to you know, talk about being number three and number four already in the books and like his lifelong dream to be, you know, hold the world record and so I think people and even myself, like it is what it is. I can read that, and like, I don't know how you define the King of l Hunting. Is it truly the record book? But I think that's what really kind of made some people either amplify their jealousy or like you want to throw stones, whatever you want to call it. That's what kind of I think triggered some people. Yeah, I think that post would have been written up different. It could have been a completely different outcome. 00:22:20 Speaker 2: In my opinion, I agree one hundred percent. It was a little inflammatory to a lot of folks, I think. But and then then I look at like if I put myself in Bo's seat, right, and and like in every every young man you say, well, my dad's the best dad in the world. My dad can beat up your dad. I mean, everybody is pretty damn proud of their dad. Like they put their dad on a pedestal, so I can see the excitement, Like I can see him like he's so excited for his dad and he thinks so much of his dad, and he puts that on there, and I can when I look at that perspective, like I'm not mad at all. But if you look at it from a different through a different lens. It can be a little in lamoratory to a lot of people because a lot of other people like, no, hey, hold on, I know a guy, my buddy, or my dad or my whoever, they're a better hunter because they do it this way or that way. Yeah, so back to like comparison, right, Like, you know, and I think like comparison is the thief of joy or whatever the old dadage says. So so this comparison, like my dad's the best delk hunter in the world. Everybody like immediately internally like, well bullshit, I I know twenty seven other people are better than that, you know, And immediately people are mad about it. So I think you're right. I feel like it was. If it would have been a little a different post, it could have been perceived differently. But but then again, I get it. I can. 00:23:44 Speaker 1: I totally get it, And there's part of me that like respects the post and would have did the same thing, like, and I struggle with it, like if I get to a place where maybe BO doesn't give a crap what anybody thinks, like this is my post. You can judge it however you want, Like this is you know what I mean, right, if you don't take any of these naysayers or these jealous individuals and like their attacks back like I made the post the way I wanted to, right, right and how I felt so I but I think there's also the sense like if you think of it that way, it's better. But you also just put it on social media with the intent or the purpose to share and get that out there. You've got to expect like some of that that to come back with the way it was worded and put together, right. 00:24:28 Speaker 2: And another thing if you think about like let's say you said, hey, my dad just found the cure to cancer, and he is now the best scientist in the world, and look at all of his you know, he's got this prize here, this Nobel prize for this, he's accomplished all this other stuff. And let's say you know, you've now he's found the cure for whatever XYZ disease. And of course it's different context. Of course it's not hunting. It's something completely different and super way more important. But still, like I don't somebody probably would be mad like, hey, wait a minute, I'm a pretty damn good scientists too, But they probably be less less anger or less hate. 00:25:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I want to be careful. I don't want to feel like I'm being a life coach here. But like I've I've went through you know when I I've never killed anything that's potential, you know, best in the world, you know. I guess my one bowls as close as it gets your number two in the state. And I think, and maybe it's just everybody's got different personalities. But like I tried to like overly be humble about it. Like I didn't. I didn't want to be judged. It was nothing. You know, there's there's a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah, there are people that are you know, consistently good elk hunters, consistently successful. But I didn't want to be put on any pedestal. It just happened to be. I was in the right place, with the right bowl at the right time. Like be careful here, Like my skills are above average. I think I think I've proven it enough times that probably above average. But like I didn't want to be I didn't want that to be anything. I didn't want to be like defined by one single elk or one single accomplishment or most. You know, it's like I just wanted the elk. I just wanted the elk to be like seeing respected. I did have a business need and so it gets very complex, right, And I guess everybody does stuff for different reasons. But I just love the elk hunt. At the end of the day, Yeah, I got a little bit lucky, a little bit fortunate to kill a giant bowl. It it you know it, it took off every you know back then you were with you know, Extreme Milk magazine, Like you guys wanted a copy of it, and you know the story and you know, things kind of went on. And maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying like I didn't want you know, everybody to know about it, I guess, and around about way I did. But I just I wanted to be like real, modest and somewhat humble through that process because it, I don't know, I didn't want hunting to like be that thing that they gave you some social status. I guess, you know, growing up with the grandpa that was all about filling the freezer, I just felt a little bit dirty or wrong. And now I've got an entire business where I post everything I do, so I'm trying to like walk through this, but I guess at the end of the day, maybe I'm a hypocrite. 00:27:10 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you're intending, like, for instance, like you could say this about shooting a giant bowl, you could say this about buying a brand new pickup, like you kind of feel like a little bit humble, Like I don't. I don't want. I don't want people to see me driving this pickup and then maybe they can't afford a cool truck like this and then feel bad Like I don't. I'm not trying to like make crush anybody's dreams or feel bad or if I kill something really nice, and I don't want anyone to feel less from it, you know. I want if if they see it, I hope they see it and like you know, and plod, you know, and like get inspired, but not feel slighted or feel like, oh man, you're just throwing that in her face. You know, I think that's part of your humility. I don't think you're you're looking for that at all. You're just like trying to share and and with you know, our brothers and brotherhood of hunting. You know, it's like, hey, look at this as a beautiful elk and has a beautiful experience and and maybe there's some inspiration from it, but yeah, back to your. 00:28:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's yeah. And that's like you know people you know time like, oh, Dirk's the best elk call in the world, or Jason's a you know, a Matt you know, I just watched an episode somebody's like, oh, Rogan mentions you on on this one. So I go flip to Joe Rogan and he calls me like a master in a world class, and I'm like, ah, you know, just like some of those things like get under your skin. You're like, I'm I'm good at it, right. I think it would be stupid to say I'm a bad out caller, right, But I just I just don't. I don't. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I'm always like, oh, somebody's gonna be like, oh, yeah, but I've did this, or you know. It's like I just want being somewha humble and flying under the radar and not. I don't know. It just seems like a safer spot at times, right, right, And maybe I'm a chicken. 00:28:46 Speaker 2: I don't know. 00:28:47 Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'm talking about. Right now. But it's one of those things where like the way I guess getting back to the way the post was made, like just yeah, I think putting it out there to all of social media in the context it was it's like, you know, king of elk hunting, and then went back to all like oh now he's number one, four and five, you know, or whatever it is. However that's going to lay out now. It was just I think it rubbed some people the wrong way, like you said, And I think if it was worded different or like we're so grateful or so thankful to have, you know, so blessed to have the opportunity, you know, and it went that way, I think would have been maybe a different response to to the to the. 00:29:25 Speaker 2: There'd still be there'd still be the haters, but I feel like I feel like they wouldn't have struck a nerve as many people. 00:29:30 Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, And I have no doubt, like I've never got to hunt with Casey. Regardless of where you're hunting. I've always said that too, regardless of where you're hunting, you still have to know, like you have to show the elk don't know that you've got a special tag and you know that, like you're who you are, Like the Elk don't just lay down regardless, so you still have to know what you're doing. And so I've never I don't want to discredit anything that you know, Casey or Bo or anybody is accomplished. I'm just walking through, you know, the circumstances around this one. So let's jump in one thing. And I got this is what I got some messages and even got like specific questions. Is the the uh the wealth involved that you know, I would say me and you are probably in that one percent of people that get to spend money on elkhunting due to our marketing budget, due to the resources we have. But the wealth that's put into this hunt by others, Like that's the one thing you get that got brought up more than anything else is like oh if I could do it, or you know another you know, people throw all kinds of other claims out there. I don't even know. I haven't added it up, you know, cost of the raffle tags and everything. But like this sort of wealth allows for opportunities that can probably be had by I wouldn't even get in the percent. I would just say fifty to one hundred individuals. 00:30:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, and out a world and then out of those people who has the interest to spend the money and then go go to work and then know how to know how to hunt right or have that kind of interest, Like I could do it, but I don't really I'm not really interested in hunting. 00:31:07 Speaker 1: Elk yep, yeah, I mean I don't even know. We should bring up names. But you know, like Jimmy Johnes, great guy, spends a ton of money, but he has Ryan Carter with him right everywhere he go, you know, so there's like Casey doesn't have that where you know, so there's there's I think there's different levels of guys that can afford it. So we get back to that wealth. But then guys that maybe you know how to do it one percent on their own when they have to. Whether that's a factor or not, I just know that, like even like I I don't have the means. I could maybe do it once or twice, you know, do some of these governor's tags or raffle tags, and then I wouldn't be able to retire. But we talked about it and it got brought up on phone calls. You know, we've tried to think about it. I got asked somebody's like, do you have any way that you could data mine you know, how many percent of like Pop and Young or Boone and Crockett bowl in the record books like the all time were killed on Raffler Governor tags. And I don't, But it's a good question and we can at least have a conversation around it. You were mentioning the other day just or don't before the podcast, you don't know of anybody outside of like personally around you, outside of governor or Raffle tag holders that have killed a foreuner inch bowl right on on that ground or at home. 00:32:22 Speaker 2: I feel like I know like a lot of the like a lot of in the industry, really good hunters, you know, Ryan Lampers and such and folks like him, you know. But and then I know a lot of unsung hunters of people that don't don't do social they don't do industry stuff, and really really really good hunters. They don't have a four hundred inch bowl under the belt, but they're just you know, working stiff guys. You know, they're not they don't have a big checkbook. 00:32:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that Dave Graham that I've had on the podcast, you know, probably probably one hundred episodes ago. You know, he got the Idaho and the Heydays, and his dad had all kinds of access because he was the appliance or prayer man, right, and so he was hunting some of amazing Idaho stuff. And that guy's got a ton of bowls over three eighty that he won't talk about three but he never broke I don't believe he's ever broke that that magical four hundred inch number, you know. And he was He's another one of those guys that, like, I know, he knows how to hunt. I've got to hunt with him down in New Mexico, you know. But just like that, you see a guy that probably had more opportunities than the best of the best to Idaho had to offer, and couldn't, you know, muster up a four hundred. You know, he's seen some but just could never kill him. Yeah, it's just it's a tough, tough feat and that kind of rolls into you know, And and I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a little story on on the wealth and and how you get access to foreigner and twenty inch bowls. So twenty nineteen, the very first outfitter tag I ever bought in Oregon. I was hunting with Brian Sanders. I don't think he went on that one. It was just us. And so we're hunting and Brian's kind of a funny guy. He's kind of always on his phone but not letting me see and texting back and forth. And I've got a ten day hunt. I know he's got a state wide take holder that's got a governor's tag kind of that he's waiting to find the right bull. You know, he's got guys out looking, and uh so I killed my bull, you know, a great three forty bowl. We had to go down to private. All the bulls actually showed up down on Brian's place, went down one hundred minimal pine tree flat, and I killed my three forty bowl. We got it all taken care of, and you could see Brian was like really itchy to go check on some stuff. Next day, he calls the state state tag holder in, they pay an access fee, and they go kill four and twenty inch bowl the next day. So that's where like this this funding and wealth at times, that's an opportunity even if everybody had that tag, whatever it may be. Like until you can keep writing checks up to you know, or that that bowls off limits for a guy like me. Yeah, you know, and so so that you know there's there's raffle tags, there's resources. We were in the TU canon back in twenty fourteen on Charlie or kell Smith's tag, you know up there Charlie, like, I didn't realize there are the mountains are crawling with people because some of these governor tags, whether it's legal or not, it's basically legal guiding. There are the mountains are crawling with people looking for that finder's fee for foreign and inch bowl or some of these governor tags. And it's just like I didn't realize, you know, until I started to figure, you know, to understand or actually be in the know, how how crazy it is and some of the bounties that are put on on these guys finding bowls. So people are out there doing it as a part time job or you know, running trail cameras everywhere, and we're like, what do you oh, we're just scouting for for governor's tag. I'm like, oh my gosh, it's it's crazy, and like it's I don't know what you call I guess it's resources that most people don't have, right, Yeah, you know me and you were fortunate that a lot of people know us or know of us or want to help us. And I feel like even what we get at times is like maybe go to this area, like we don't ever get put on. But it's like even that compared to like, you know, somebody like, hey, I got a bowl in this canyon at this time. Not saying that's how this went at all, but it's just talking about how wealth can sometimes lead to opportunities that aren't there, and you know, maybe there's a little bit of jealousy for people that they can't do it, you know, But I would say it's available to everybody. You just have to go out there and work and get the money to some point. Right, Like, it's not saying it's off limits. There's a lot of work and a lot of fortune and you know a lot of luck involved on getting yourself to a place where you can financially afford that. So it is available to everybody, but there's some limitations to get there. 00:36:36 Speaker 2: I would say, right, well, look at Chuck Adams, right you read his book, and this book's published years ago. A couple decades ago, probably, but you know out famous outdoor writer, famous bow hunter, you know, legendary bowhunter. But he you know, full transparency, troll, full transparency in his book. You know, he's just like, you know, a lot of people like say, he's wealthy, you know, that's why he can afford to go hunt sheep and all these all these different hont polar bears and all this stuff. But he's like, people don't realize. He's like, I've mortgaged my house several times, you know, taking out the equity for these hunts. He's like, I make a pretty normal living as an outdoor writer, but my priorities is these hunts. 00:37:30 Speaker 1: Yea. 00:37:30 Speaker 2: And so he's probably not making the best financial decisions. If Dave Ramsey heard him, he'd be like, you're a fool. 00:37:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, but his kids are going to be His kids are going to be pissed off when they read the will and figure out the bank. 00:37:45 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:37:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if that's the situation, but yeah, but yeah, if you just love the huntnut your passion, you might be able to put it all together and make it happen, right. 00:37:53 Speaker 2: Right, But don't I don't know too many people that are really willing to like mortgage their house to go hunt, you know somewhere. I mean, that's that's next level. 00:38:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wanted to jump in a little bit to the advantage that these tags give somebody. And we were talking about a little bit earlier, like, yeah, this bull that was killed could probably have been killed on a normal tag. Yeah, I believe the state of Washington. I don't want to say the number of tags because it could allude to the unit. Not very many tags are given though, right, very very very few, pretty brushy unit. You know, wherever this bull rutted. My understand I did I know this bowl is being hunted on public private prior to to ending up on the private. It's just so these tags, it's easy for people to just say this bull could have been killed with Yeah, that's that is a fact. But the likelihood or anybody it's hunted long enough knows that there's like circumstances that don't make it like a very high probability you'd ever kill that buy right, whether it lived on a private ranch or it truly did live on public, or maybe it crosses from two pieces of private and you're trying to hunt like a little you know, corner these sort of opportunities. There are advantages that that normal people, you know, without a raffle or a governor's tag just don't have. And there's no denying that. Right. You can start typically well, at least in Washington state August first, or maybe that's Oregon, maybe Washington September first, all the way to December thirty first. Yeah, and with and with governor's tags, you never have to put your rifle down if that's your meat. You know, Casey killed this one with a bow. But if you want it to, you can even have more of advantage and never put your rifle down. You can literally, you know, go out there during archery season and hunt right alongside those guys at your rifle if that's that's what you want to do. And then it does give, in my opinion, an advantage at the back end of the season because you if you have an early winner or a winner or these bulls start to migrate out of their summer range or their transition range and they're down into their their winter range. I do feel they become more susceptible to being comfortable, like the creature comforts of where's my food? You know, they they literally just went from being able to live anywhere in the world down to a small section of lowlands. And you know, not only this bowl. What two years ago, Dirk, we were talking the Washington Raffle Tag Bowl, right, the giant that was four sixty four to seventy once again killed on in the last week of December. I believe, you know, had to wait for enough snow to pile up for that bowl. And I'm I do want to to add an asterisk to this conversation. This is how I understand the story. So I'm not saying this is exact fat. There was yet hurt. There was a lot of snow in that picture, and I do know about the time it was killed. You know, it was later in the year that bowl had to get down, you know, a little bit lower. So there is there's there's you know, unlimited season, not unlimited, but confined season that extends way outside of normal opportunity. And then a lot of people are able to take advantage over the potential early winter. You know, you're you're starting to hunt all the way through December thirty first. I know that bowl this year, I'm I know the Governor's Tag Bowl was killed in that last week in Washington this year. So there is no denying that some of these bulls become more vulnerable or more susceptible to being you know, being seen or located late in the year when the snow forces them to be in certain areas. 00:41:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it's you know, they're down there, you know, focusing on just staying alive at this point, you know, as far as feeding, you know that they're not maybe not being pursued by people or the predators they are always looking for, but they're just trying to pack on some weight after everything they've lost over the over the rut, you. 00:41:54 Speaker 1: Know, yep, yep, yeah. And then at that time of the year, there's no nobody out in the woods, right you're it's you. And then you know you're the only tag holder for a large chunk of the state or you know, the whole state for some of these tags, or half the state in Washington, it's just different. Those those all aren't being bothered by anything but predators. At that point, like no more human presence, they get comfortable, they've got to live in a smaller area, and so it just kind of yeah, there's an advantage. Do you pay for that advantage. Yes, is it right or wrong? Or you know, it's like once again, it's legal, and we don't set up the season dates. So if the season dates for raffles and governor's tags needs to be what it is, then that I'm fine with it. There is, but there is, like I think we need to talk to the facts that they are more vulnerable, more susceptible at that time of year right now. 00:42:43 Speaker 2: I would I wouldn't think. I would like to question a little bit like some of these where these funds are going, you know, in the spirit of conservation. You know, that's how they spun, Like these these funds that folks are paying for these governor tags or raffle tags. You know, it's all all goes back to conservation. But I'd really love to see an in depth audit to some of those accounts of where that actually money is spent, where the rubber meets the road back into conservation, back onto where it hits the landscape of wildlife conservation. I'd like to see that just to be like, Okay, yeah, we're doing the right thing, stale or whole hold on, we maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing. 00:43:21 Speaker 1: This, yeah, yeah, or like, you know, I'd love to see a you know, similar out of that audit, like how you know, for one hundred dollars in like how much of it actually ends up on the ground or does it all get cut up in red tape? And oh, by the time we pay the administration and ninety percent of it goes the wages and you know, fish and wildlife stuff, then oh ten percent will actually go back into to opening up some wintering range or planting some stage. You know. It's like you know, like the Red Cross kind of always gives there, you know, any any big foundation, like oh, seventy three percent will make it back to you know, on the ground, or ninety percent will make it to the recipient, right, Like are we you know, because that gets thrown out, like that's the first the fence you see, Like look at how much money they're putting into conservation. I'm like, yeah, it face value, it looks like that, but you know, are we really getting it to where it needs to get? You know? Yeah, And there's I want to kind of wrap this up, and you know, we could talk about it all all day, but like I just at times too my own opinion, Like I just sometimes love to watch animals. Like I've said it on this podcast before, I root for the animals sometimes, right, And at times there's like, man, part of me would love for this bowl to breed every cow and you know, and that in that county. Yeah, and as are as genes going to show up and and so like I said, I'm not trying to say I wouldn't have killed the thing if I had the opportunity, But like you know, cemetery bucks just don't get me excited. But I love to look at him to my binoculars and like, wow, that's a great example of the species, right right, Like that's a school to look at and I would love to see what he does next year. And you know, I've got I've got big blacktails that walk through my yards at times, and I don't shoot them, and I can't stop my neighbors from shooting them at times. But it's like I just I just love to watch the deer do their thing in my yard at times, like maybe I'm a softy, I don't know. Sometimes like watching this elk, you know, just do its thing, getting down to you know, where he's lived for the past you know, you know, five six years and where he's comfortable, like, I don't know. Once again, it goes back. Maybe I should say it was legal and not get into that touchy feely stuff. 00:45:31 Speaker 2: But right well, I think we all have our like how would prefer to kill an elk or you know, our our our dream hunt. I've I've been building points in Arizona for years. You know I'm gonna I'm approaching two decades in points in Arizona, and I could for sure draw a late season tag somewhere. But to me, in my in my eye, and people are like, dude, you should just draw that late season tag. Oh it's great. But in my mind, if I'm going to Arizona, that's not the hunt I want. I don't want to go there when it's the forest is quiet and it's cold, and I'm just glass and bowls and sneaking up and all that. I'm going there for the experience. I'm going there for the screaming bowls, the rut. You know, I'm looking for that particular experience. In fact, you know, here in Idaho myself, like there's a there's a lot of units that have a lot of elk that but it's just not my cup of tea. I don't like that kind of hunting. I'm gonna go hunt the kind of places it's my kind of pretty and and hunt them on the way I like to do it, calling them in, calling them in, right I can. I've I've always said the guys that are good at spot in stock kill way more bulls than the guys that are calling them in, and bigger bulls. But that's not the way I like to do it, right. So yeah, so I get I guess, you know, personally, that's not my cup of tea. How i'd want to kill that built that world record bowl. But I'm not gonna throw rocks. I mean, it was legal. It's just my opinion. 00:47:01 Speaker 1: Yep. No, And that's that's how I'm it was legal. We can all have our opinions. Do they matter? No, I mean, at the end of the day, they're They're just opinions. And and like I say, I I think we should, you know, stay away from, you know, being devisive as we can. There's just there's are some things on this bowl, like I hopefully you know, i'd like to congratulate Casey on his success and and you know, bo On on his dad's success, and you know, it's awesome to see. It's awesome that we get a chance to see a bowl of that caliber. Who knows, maybe next time one's killed, we won't get to see it with all the you know, all the the the hate that you know, I don't know if it's hate, but you know, people people throwing shade. I just once again, I'm not a life coach, I'm not a psychologist, but I would just say, next time, Like I think if it would have been worded different, well it could have been in a completely different outcome. Maybe not as many people would have been frustrated with the story. And you know, calling whether it's your dad or not, the King of l cunning. It's tough to define that, right because there's no situation the same, no opportunity is the same, and I think we can all argue that we definitely don't have the same opportunity that Casey gets, right, you know. And it was kind of funny. There's a there's a twenty eight page post on one of the local forums, you know, because it was killed here in Washington, so everybody's talking about it and they're like, well, how do you how are you the king elk hunting? Like did we put an elk with like the same mental capability inside of a fence a million times? And let everybody who thinks they're the best elk hunter, like, go try to kill it, and then what's our measuring stick? Like the way the wind was that day? How fast you killed it? Like, there's no way because all of our all of our stories are different, all of our opportunities are different, right, And I think maybe we'll close with this like that might be the biggest detriment to social media and hunting in general, now that everybody can talk. Like back in the day when Grandpa hunted, right, I think, like you didn't know what the hell somebody killed two states over. I had no idea that there was a giant bowl killed on the wall or a buck on the Wallsat's front. You had no idea that something was killed in Arizona unless you a magazine. 00:49:00 Speaker 2: You didn't even know there was out there. 00:49:02 Speaker 1: You literally, yeah, you you just hunted the hunt. And I think that that like find your own why, right, and just stick to it. Don't be jealous. Like know that whoever posted the picture of a giant bowl that was their their idea. Maybe they locked into it. Give them a high five, SA, congrats, and then go on your way, like don't judge them by your by your book, or don't judge them by what you're after, right, And I like, I say, I feel like I'm preaching or a psychologist right here, but I feel like it's important for all of us for hunting's future to like we've got to find a way to to like get by judging what everybody does, like, oh, they use a muzzle order, but it's not traditional, like Matt doesn't count. Or oh they they're a crossbow hunter and I'm a long bow hunter, like doesn't get Like, no, just do it because you love it and because that's what hunting was. If you didn't have a damn Facebook page or an Instagram page or you know, maybe if you read a magazine article, you'd see one person killed with a cross bow, like you wouldn't know this happens, like social media good or bad. It's like you've got to be able to like cope with you cope with your feelings, and just accept it for what it is. Like those people would be doing that with or without social media. Maybe maybe not. I don't know. I feel like I'm just rambling now and I'll getting the point across. 00:50:21 Speaker 2: But yeah, well back to your point of king of bell hunting. I mean, it's so like in his opportunity of world, it is in his opportunity of bail to spend that kind of money and hunt those kind of places. Yeah, you know that maybe, yeah, he is a king that he's gonna take that crown with that, with that measurement. Right, But I know a guy that nobody knows he's killed more three hundred plus inch bulls with a rifle in October, you know, on rifle season in the most wolf infested unit in Idaho. He's killed more of those big bulls anybody I know, more than all the old old timers. In fact, his dad shot a three eighty bowl and that wolf infested unit here two years ago. I would challenge that hit between him and his dad. 00:51:07 Speaker 1: I would. 00:51:08 Speaker 2: I would almost say he and his dad are the king of l cunning like they have they have, they have really completed a feat in that country. And then to pull a three eighty bull out of there that nobody shot at a three eighty bowl in that in that area in thirty forty fifty years, I'm like, so Yeah, it's like there's the situations just so different like to just say to say that, and I think that's why people were so incensed or mad about that. 00:51:37 Speaker 1: So yeah, because you can't define it. And you know, you mentioned your buddy, I know who you're talking about, but you're like, we've talked about Dave Graham, We've talked about my our buddy John Davis up there in Libby. You talk about guys like Ryan Lampers and Brian Barney like they they they've got the skill and then know how they've proven it over and over and it's like, well, if you, let's say Ryan Lampers had a bottomless checkbook, man, I almost would struggle to ever bet against him like doing the same thing, if not better, Right, Like I I don't I want to, I don't want to get into this. You know maybe, but it is like you can't define that because it is so unique to everybody. And and I guess we can kind of close with that. 00:52:19 Speaker 2: Do what you love, you hunt the way you love, do the do do the best you can, and root for other hunters, but in the end, just just be happy, like, don't throw rocks at each other. I'm a huge like I'm always saying, like, like, man, we are so divided, and everybody's got something to say, you know, about about anything, like it don't matter what it is. You know, you see all these crazy posts I somebody uh posted bo had put like a little video like Casey Brooks and chot this big bull and kind of starts talking about it, and then somebody you know remixed it and then put in their two cents on on Instagram. So I kind of commented a little bit of something about not really about that bowl, but I addressed one of the other comments he'd made there. Oh man, you know people are people are commenting on that and then telling me I'm a I'm a jackass and for this and that. I'm like, well, you know, but what about this? What about that? Then I feel like me, I should just shut up and like I shouldn't even comment, right I should, But sometimes you just like I want to put my two cents in there to get people thinking, yeah, but let's not hate each other. Geez, come on, no name calling, no hate, let's just all think about it. And but you know, we all take our own path in life. 00:53:32 Speaker 1: Yep, yep. No appreciate having you on your Like I say, it was a topic once again I didn't want to comment on, so I figured let's just have a podcast talk about it, and I say, we'll end with congrats to Casey and bow On on that success, and uh yeah, just go out and hunt the way you love to and try to keep your comments to yourself, like it just it's not a good look, if it's legal, if it checks out box, and just keep it to yourself and move on. 00:53:56 Speaker 2: Yep, absolutely, we'll see you next time. 00:53:58 Speaker 1: Guys, All right, take care of them and