00:00:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Gary's did that beards filling out? Man? Looking good? It's tight up against his face. Looks like he's groomed. Yeah, groomed a little bit excellent a pull it up just yeah, but like that. The bottom of Rusty is Beard is actually a wildlife management area. I've only known here for about five minutes, but I feel like I can ascertain that immediately. That's a man. Well, great to see everybody. This Spine afternoon. This this is this is the best, one of the nicest afternoons we've had in a while. Doors open, doors open. Yeah, here at the Global Headquarters. Hey to my left, Daniel Rupe. Dr Dan Rupe, good to see you. Am happy to be here. We're gonna talk about this podcast, the Secret White Tail Secrets podcast, and I have I have two secret guests here that I'm gonna wait until you're gonna tell you who they are. We're gonna disguise their We're gonna disguise their voices the entire time. I've got a story. I've got a story, but uh no, so we've got to to two secret guests. I would also like to take just a second and end. For anybody who is listening to this for the first time and don't understand the format of Beargrease, I want to fill you in. Okay, The Bargrease podcast is a documentary style podcast where we have multiple guests, we tell we tell stories. That's highly produced. We produced that every two weeks. Every other week in the off week, we have a Bargrease surrender and render is a metaphor. Okay. Metaphor is when you use a word that is not actually literally used, but metaphorically used. That word is a type in a shadow of the real word. So when you render bear fat, it turns into bear grease, and it's a process of heating that melts it down. And so in essence, we're taking the Bargrease documentary style podcast, we're rendering it down metaphoric lighting them on fire. Yes, and then so the bargrease. Render is where all we all sit down and talk about the big podcast. So that's what this is. And it's okay to make fun of you in the process, right, Yes, okay, that's part. So if the adjective for the podcast is highly produced, what would the adjective for the render be? So skipping over our secret guests, which will come back to Josh Pillmaker. Great to see you, Thank you very much, glad to be here. Yeah, I've been doing a little fly fishing. I've been fly fishing a lot, even in the We had ten inches of snoddle last week and I went out and it and then I went out last I went out on Saturday, I guess, and it was the temperature was about eighteen degrees but man, that windshill was something and my real was literally frozen. Wouldn't turn my line. I'd have to drip dip my my broad in the water every few minutes because my guides would feel full, solid, full of ice. And but I caught him. It's a nice fish, did you. Yeah. I went with my friend Keith Reeves. You know Keith Reeves. Yes, yeah, that's the first time I've met him, and he actually well I'll tell you what he but he messaged me on Instagram once we get started talking about the podcast because it's he wanted to know I wanted to know. Yeah, he wanted to know where I was fishing, and he said, are you willing to share? And I had to sit there and think for a little bit. I'm I willing to share my He's asked me he's seen a picture of me deer hunting by a creek in Arkansas, and he asked me where the creek was. He wanted to fish in the creek. Good guy, great fancy. Josh has left back from wherever he's been like a blond panther himself. Gary nucle Yeah, good to be here. Hey, Gary Neuklem, Hey, good to see you. Thank you. Hey. This dude has been all the way to California on the campaign trail. There you go, there you do. Man, tell us about a little bit about your trip to California. What were you doing? Where'd you go? Well? Uh, there were four couples and we all traveled by ourselves and we ended up in the Saying Saying Dunes of southern California, Glamy's the most famous best dunes in America supposedly. We stayed there four days and then we went north about two hours to uh moab No, to a King of the Hammers in uh which is Yeah, it was everything, big jeeps, little jeeps, motorcycles. Every day there's a race going on. And we stayed there about five days, and uh, it was just extremely wonderful and I couldn't believe it. My sweet little wife really enjoyed it, that's what I heard. I mean, it's just crazy. She'd go, hey, no, let's not leave you, and I want to see this guy flip. Tell him, tell yeah, tell her about tell them about the one place where those guys were flipping. A couple of times. She got in the fetal position riding with me. You gotta get your mind right. This is the safest thing we've done in three days. You know, the interstate. You're loving to die any second. I have seen a photo of one of your side by sides consumed in the ball of fire. Oh yeah, I wasn't in it, though, I mean, I I just left it obviously lucky. I was lucky to get out. But but anyway, you know, there's uh several places that are just it's just crazy to watch this race. What they do. They go through the desert at a hundred hundred fifty, then they go through the rocks at two and three miles an hour. They go down big drop offs, up drop you know, climb huge stuff and it takes quite a vehicle to do all that. Yeah. So anyway, so my life as a young man was filled with what I just thought was normal. It turns out it wasn't. Uh in righting in four wheelers side by side jeeps with this guy. Hey, we're gonna come back to your story. Let me introduced our secret guests. All right, directly across from did you give out? I think the chair just give just break Dan roots chair. Just finally we knew this was gonna The moment has come. Go ahead and just now you just got a stool care we go keep going, all right, Most Shepherd, my good buddy mos Shepherd man the myth also known as Moseley Shepherd. That okay, I didn't know. I've got some explaining to do. Mo. Greet everybody. How's everybody doing today? Glad to be here doing us doing this render cast. Yeah, man, I've known Moe for a long time. I don't know fifteen years. Maybe maybe not that long. I meant what I said, Moe is one of the best mountain deer hunters that I know, hunting some rough, rough ground and just going out and doing it. He's he's he knows what he's doing. Um, you don't you keep secrets. You don't find Moe's house on the accident, you better know where you're going. That's right, that's right. Um. So I'm gonna introduce the other guests and then I'm gonna tell why they have nicknames to his Laught, no Stranger to the Barriers Render, Rusty Johnson, Rusty Curly Johnson. Yeah, good to see you, man, Good to see you. Both of you guys were my when when I decided I was gonna do a podcast on secrets. I thought Daniel Rupe because he's got a lot of secrets, and then I thought you two because you are good at keeping secrets. And Okay, here's what happened. Originally, the idea of this podcast, I was gonna keep their identity seals. Did you notice there was some in congruency and the names. Did you notice that? Maybe? Did you? Do you even know what we're talking about? This podcast is about a podcast I know, I don't know what you're talking. You lost me in the metaphor talk we're greasing something up. So originally I was going to interview these two guys, and I was going to hide their identity because it was gonna be a joke, because as if they were telling secrets that we're gonna get them in trouble and get them killed or something. And so when we sent it to production at Meat Eater, I was like, hey, let's disguise their voices like they do on the movies, like when they're interviewing a mobster who's wanting to leak some info but not get in trouble. And so I built the podcast like that, and I gave him hode names and his name was Mos name was Moseley, and I just randomly Mo and Curly, so so us Johnson. Rusty Johnson was just Curly. And so I built all the voiceovers for these podcasts. I don't know if you guys know this, but there's actually quite a bit of work that goes into these podcasts. And I built I built the I thought your phone, who doesn't work? Uh? Me? No? We we got a great production team at ME. Either does a lot of it. I just thought that was their names. Well okay, I never specifically said like, I just introduced him as Rusty Johnson. And then what I what I failed to do was when I so when I finally listened to it, I didn't. We decided we did not like the the disguised voices. So I was like, oh, we just need to just come out with and say their names. So I changed the voice over in two spots, but I forgot to change the voice over and all the other spots, so I was calling them mostly curly, and so Rusty messages me that Wednesday came out and he said, why is everybody calling me curly? It's like an inside Joe Clay didn't tell you about it exactly. Come into work and everybody's like, morning, Curly. I hadn't listened to the podcast, and I'm like, what, Curly, have you listened to the podcast yet? No? You might want to. Uh. So that's how's beech Nut taken? Hold? Oh it's it's doing pretty good, I say, beach Nut, Yeah, Spencer Dewhurst nicknames, getting some traction, yeah, m hmm yeah, um no, so we're gonna get We're gonna get back to you guys. But I did promise the world that I was gonna ask you. I need you to tell us about the image that I put on Instagram about three weeks ago of a side by side in the It was kind of a pretty photo. It was like, uh, pretty disturbing. Yeah, it was like kind of twilight e And there's about a side by side just engulfed thirty foot tall flames. Nothing ain't nothing left to that side by side. That's what I said. It's a crime scene. He covered his tracks. Yeah. Yeah, So I told people that I would have you tell that story. What what the heck? Judy was over in the corner in the fetal position. Uh, well, you know it was real interesting to me in that my nephew and I ride together a lot, and we'd like to ride fast and we just enjoy getting together. And we did that a lot. Well, I had a I had a two, I had a sixteen model razor, and all of a sudden it started coming out in publications that these things were burning. So my sean period called me and he goes, hey, Gary, those razors are burning, and I it, you know, I read that, and I said, but it's only when they get hot, and he said, I watched my shawn as a rocket side, I watched my temperature gage, and I don't let mine get hot. So I'm fine. Smart. So I was going on about a hundred and fifty mile trip. Actually, well I won't tell you where I was going, but I went through the we don't know how I looked at Rusty Bureau Home grounds. I was hitting down there. So on the way back, this was brand news. You were riding by yourself. Yeah, by myself, And it's a turbot and unreal excited ride, yeah real. And and so I I take my gas cans instead of stacking them in there the way they were. I got this great idea that I had a better way of doing it. It wasn't a better way, So I just drive this distance and on the way back, take a few little jumps and runs and you know, bouncing off stuff, filling that turbo. Well, about the third time I got airborne. When I landed, those gas cans turned over, and uh, you know, at the time, I didn't see a lot of danger to me. But when I look back and comments from people, they go, you know, you were pretty lucky to get out of there, And uh, so you know, if it had been a wreck, you might get trapped. But anyway I got out. There was no way what happened. I mean, you're just riding. You feel we're looking in the back and I'm saying, I'm running about forty miles an hour and there's flames, you know, shooting up. So I of course slam on the brakes and I looked for water. I looked for dart, look for anything or nothing there. So I just backed off. I left U um real expensive pair of binocular and regret that's the only thing you were Uh. I had good insurance. So anyway, I just thought, man, I got about six mile walk out of here. You could have lit a signal fire. I think he did. I think he did. It didn't work. I walked to the highest heel I could find and called, uh, James Lawrence, and he came and got me. Yeah. So, and he probably just sniffed you out. He knew exactly where he were by the cell phones. You said, I felt the disturbance in the foresactly. I knew there was a fire. You dial his number, but you could hear his phone ringing. He stepped out from behind. Yeah, I saw that guming Gary. The you know, the aluminum was melted, the engine, I mean, everything was just it was just it was nothing. The steel was remaining, that's about it. Holy cow, My Sharoskis were melted. And I agree with what some of the people commented, and I read some of the comments. Because you got that hot machine, you got all that stuff, and you got gas cans in there that turned over. Now, it's wonder that thing didn't blow and just yeah, I know, you know, that could have been real danger. But but they had a hose that was coming loose when it got hot, and it was dripping fuel on the turbo and that was causing to burn up. But mine was because somebody set gas cans in the wrong place. That's right. It sounds like a very safe activity when you describe it all, I feel like, yeah, you trust me driving around with a bomb? Uh? Well, anybody else here ever had a machine catch on fire. I did see it. I did see in Mina, Arkansas. I pulled up to the stoplight right there by the by the what's the train there downtown? What's that? I can't remember what that gas station is right there, but I looked over and there's an old man, and I see smoke coming from under his hood, and within two seconds there were flames rolling out, and he's at the gas pump and I see him get back in the car and try to start it so he could drive it off. And he's in the car and somebody, somebody comes running out of the gas station, grabs him out of the car and reaches in and puts it in neutral, and they push it away from the from the gas pumps, and every yeah, trying to get One time I had a jeep, jeep Cherokee. Uh it was The year was probably two thousand five, two thousand six, red was it read? It was kind of burgundy. And one day I was driving to the U of Bay and I see I'm in Fayettabe, Arkansas, driving down College and I see smoke start to come out from underneath the hood, and I just go, oh, man, that's not good. And I was within about half of from an Old Riley's and kind of downhill, and so I just thought I'm gonna make it, and so I just made it into and the car was drying, the jeep was driving fine. I pulled into Old Riley's and there's more smoke coming out in front of the hood and I and I pop it open the hood and there is a pack rat nest on top of the hood that is in flames. Oh my gosh. I mean just like when I opened the hood, it was like, yeah, that's what I needed oxygen. And so it just and uh and so I run into the old Riley's and there's like people in line, you know, and everybody's just standing there being quiet, like waiting, and I go, hey, uh, my jeeps on fire in the parking lot. And I promise you. The guy behind the counter, I mean, it was like he could have cared less. He was just like he just kind of people won't be able to see what I'm doing. I'm acting like I'm a sixty year old man and that doesn't care. And he was just like what And I was like, my my jeep is on fire. Do you have a fire extinguisher, water or anything? And he was just like, well, there's a bathroom over there, there's a there's a toilet, there's a picture, there's a picture over there. And I just run behind the counter, grabbed this picture, run back to the bathroom and put it under the sink and get the picture. Only about half outside, getting Gary nucom and I run back outside and just doused the jeep. And it's luckily it never fully caught on fire. It just it just kind of burned all the hoses on the top. And but that that pact burned up. You've had some bad luck with pac will destroy your life. Yeah, I had one. I had one vehicle to burn upon me and seventy nine I had told Volkswagen I bought the year I graduated out of school, and this was year after that, and I'd cut it down, made a ball haull bug out of it. To make a long story short, I was out in the mountains out there in the and the and the I was art Nashta Forest. It's riding smoke trails, and I guess I had accumulated leaves up around the engine on the back of that old volswagon. Didn't know what they got up around the manifold. And I was driving down the main road up there. I'd come out of the woods kind of like Gary said, well, I go. I was driving Long's about dusky dark, and I could just see illumination inside the darkswagon ball haul bug, and I turned out looking the whole back console behind the back seat was on fire and I slid it off the road, run over and went to getting dirt out of the ditch. I finally got put out, but it melted the motor and everything. It was trash after that. Three out of six of us here have had vehicles burned, my mind being the least. Have you ever had anything burn Rusty Johnson never had one burned down. Like I said, I got the fire put out, but it done trash that it burned all the wire and fixing it. I'm not talking. This is a podcast on secrets. Is Burgundy not red? I mean no, no, no, like dark purple that's red. Burgundy is Burgundy. That's why they call it Burgundy. One more story that's relevant to the time. Okay, and then we're gonna actually get in there and start talking about this podcast because I've got a few things I need to draw out of Rusty mow. Yeah. Um, so today is February fourteenth, It's Valentine's Day. We're recording this on Valentine's Day. This will come as um February. Does anybody know what February is? Yesterday, the day before Valentine's Day, Dad, Dad will know you wouldn't know this, but in my house, February is Jackhammer Day, jack Hammered Day. When I was do you remember when I was a junior in high school. When I was a junior in high school, one day I went and I had baited some hogs jackhammer like the Broadhead. Well just wait, four years ago? Was twenty four years ago? Was four junior year. It was my first junior year. Aren't you forty I'm forty two. Okay, Well then it was twenty six years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so so hey, that was a compliment. I thought he was digging on me. That was a compliment. Oh thanks, mother, that was nice. Um. I was a junior in high school and I had I had baited some hogs down on some some land. I'm not gonna tell you where it was. And uh, what I had done was I had dug a hole in the ground about probably eighteen to twenty inches deep and about probably twenty inches wide. So envisioned a circle hole in the ground. The the hole was near a creek, and the creek was in a big flat hardwood bottom, and there was a the ground came up out of the creek and was flat for about twenty yards and then had like a ten to twelve foot steep rise and then it flattened out again, so it was like a secondary floodplain if that makes Does that make sense, You'll see this like a steep bank. Well, what I did was I put that hole about fifteen yards from the rim of the higher bank so that I could walk up and peek over the bank down to the creek to this hole in the ground. Okay, that's exactly right. So I filled that hole with corn. And we didn't have trail cameras or anything back then. I mean just nobody was using trail cameras. And I even raked out the leaves about fifty yards going up to where you look over the edge, so that I could walk talk without making any noise. And I set the trap and just waited. You know, I can't remember if I waited four or five days or how I knew that there were hogs in there. I may have just been guessing that they would be there. And this is the kind of dad Gary Newcom was. The night before I just had a inkling that it was the day to go, and I said, Hey, I'm not gonna go to school tomorrow. I'm gonna go hunt those hogs. Do you remember that? Okay? I did, I really did. I. I just told him. I was like, I'm going to I'm going to hunt hogs and uh, because I remember the next day being in the classes that I missed. Uh for some reason, I vividly remember the look on one of my teacher's faces. He wasn't angry. I just remember it. So I go down there and get there just after daylight, and it just worked like clockwork. I walked in those the leaf where I scratched the leaves back and I'm carrying a sixty five pound pull high Country X what was it, high Country ex caliber with hatchet cams, shooting about a five grain ERA. And at that time we were shooting jackhammer wasps broadheads, which is an expandable broadhead. And at the time it was like, I mean, we just we're shocked at how good they killed deer, right, Dad, Absolutely, I mean just because we were coming out. You know, those were something that was kind of the first GM have something that I got from you back then. Yeah, I bet you do. Did you ever shoot jackhammers? Yeah? Well, so, Rusty was that that was kind of a judgmental. No, Rusty was like, no, I never shoot Jack cammers his beards at w m A. I think you shoot shoot mechanical broadheads. You don't shoot mechanicals and red curves and longbows. That's right, that's most that's the ultimate. Like slap um, He's like, big men, real men don't use mechanicals. Well, no, they did real good with with deer. And I I walk up over this rise just after daylight. I didn't hear hogs. I just was just I wonder if they're there. And man, I raise up over the little bank looking down, and and there as a big, big hog with his head completely submersed in that hole. I mean just like his I mean, he can't see me. He's down there crunching corn, and I mean, here I am, and I'm just like, holy cow, it worked. You know, I'm just a kid, you know, like sixteen, maybe seventeen. You're very excited. And he's standing there broadside. I think it was eighteen yards and so, I mean I had aeron knocked. I was ready. I drew that bow back and just put it right behind his shoulder and shot, and man, that era looked like it bounced off of him, just stuck him right where I was aiming, just right behind the shoulder, just like a little shot a deer, and he literally kind of grunted and just just plowed, you know, just disappeared, you know, and within ten yards of that hole, that era was laying on the ground. And I just was in shock. I mean it, this is more or less bounced off of the hog. And I walked down there and it had about how much penetration so well, we've got a picture of it. I mean probably three inches of penetration and hit him in that big shield. Oh yeah, you see, you trusted your dad. It's like Tyler at the time. I told him how to jump a sand dune and it almost killed him because he did it exactly the way I said. I told Clay how good those jackhammers were. He trusted me. Well, that was the beginning point of us learning that you couldn't shoot those hogs right behind the shoulder with especially with an expandable head. And had a big hog, I mean, and it was a big hog. I mean it was a three plus pound hog, I believe, based upon the track, and I was pretty good at judging them, judging their weight by track. Back in those days. And uh, anyway, jack Hammer Day, because listen, this is all coming back around. I know you are just like, where is this going? Where is he taking us? Um? Listen. The next day, I go to a young lady's house who I happened to be courting. Her name was Misty. Does Misty know about her? That's here today? Misty. Misty had made a vow not long before that that she would never marry a hunter. And this was early in our relationship. And I recounted the story of what had just happened to me just like the day before, and she had never heard anyone tell hunting story and it immediately she was like, can you believe that that is a great Valentine story? Jack? So last night last night while we're at church, she texted me in the in the meeting, okay, yep, it happened, and she said happy Jackhammer Day. She remembered all on her own. I wondered if she was you need to get one of those jackhammers and like put it in a POxy, like clear epoxy so she can keep it on her shaped in the heart shaped in the heart shaped heart. Now that's if that's not romance I don't know what is I mean either, So I had to tell that story on Balentin's day. All right, MO, did you so you were really in the dark on what I was doing with this podcast? You just kind of trusted me? It was my trust I made that mistake, would the same mistake was was was was my did I? Did I pull through and being trustworthy? Or were you? Like God? It pinned me in the court. So that's why I had you here so you could anything that made you look like you can defend yourself. Now defend myself if you're if you're like what now? I was, all, okay, then we're fine. Well I guess most of it was. But most of it, Yeah, you didn't tell me all the truth of the of what was going on when we first started. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. You first told me, you know, that our voices was going to be disguise, nobody to know who we were anything. And the podcast comes out and you introduced us. I thought, well, he didn't do anything he said he was gonna do. So other than that, it was pretty good. Hey, least you knew you were being recorded. Has happened before? Snuck it in that recording? The whole podcast. Just okay, Rusty, do you feel like you've been cheated in any way by me? No? But you know, whenever you asked me to do it, uh, I didn't want. I mean, I ask you, how could I prepare? You know? Is there anything I can do to prepare? Oh? No, it's it's gonna be easy. Typical play Nukem. It's gonna be easy. Don't worry about it. It's gonna be easy. But no, it turned out pretty good. I mean, you caught me off guard on a couple But yeah, well, actually I could. I've got some some dirt. I mean, I could release the full episodes of these I talked to these guys for like an hour. But remember if you do that, you gotta you gotta, you gotta release the stuff that I asked you, that you don't turn the tables. After a while, he was like, yeah, hey, what about you now? Then he says, Then he says, Then Klay says, well, no, this is gonna be on the podcast. Don't worry about it. We don't need to talk about it. So Betty did scrambled there for a minute, didn't he? Uh? Well, I did. Put At the end, Dan interview and me, Yeah, so I thought that was fair. Yeah, but he don't know you as well as like me and rest you Josh, and that's so, uh what what what y'all think of the podcast? I thought I thought it was I actually didn't know where the podcast was going in the beginning, and I thought it was really good because, you know, I had a great talk with Keith about about this stuff. Because there's a lot of guys that are real secretive about stuff. I have had a different upbringing inside of hunting and fishing, especially that I feel like I've had. I almost feel an obligation to share what I know because I know so many people have shared with me. So you know, I think I think being able to foster a love um for being outdoors and hunting and fishing um. Sometimes Trump's keeping it secret, but you know that's that's coming from me from a totally different experience in life with hunting. So you're coming from a very like kind of quote unquote healthy hunting background, Clays like an abused Yes, yeah, yeah, But it wasn't interesting that that Keith texted me because he hadn't heard the podcast, and he said, he said, Hey, I was just wondering I'm going out to beaver damn and I'm just wondering if you had any spots that that you would feel comfortable sharing. I was like, I was like, well, how about I go with you and I if I feel good about it, I'll show you a comfortable you know, I think it's it's possible some people. I heard some people's comments on it, and I don't think they really listened to the whole podcast. So what we did here was we we used hunting just as an entry point to talk about the way people manage information they have, you know, so like, yeah, we talked about hunting secrets and that was kind of what we used. But really we were looking at you could have you could have made that podcast about tennis. It's it's how we share information and why we share information we don't or why we don't and who we share it with. And you know, it really was a a study for me because it happened just the way I said it. I was setting in a tree up here on November one, and I had a picture of this big deer and there was nothing more that I wanted to do. I mean, like, I'm like scrolling through my phone trying to find somebody to send it to that I hadn't and I'd send it to very few people. I'd send it to probably everybody in this room. That's I'd shared it with Mo and Rusty and uh, I told you all different versions of that story, all different versions of where it came from. Uh, this is a public land deer in Kansas. This is a no, I'm just kidding, no, uh it. But and I was just like this is this is weird and and and I had It's not like the first time I've ever thought of this. We share stuff with people because we want I mean, we like to share something with like minded people. But really it's deeper than that. You know, it's it's it's it's it is a request for friendship if you really think about And that's what Dan did such a good job of describing, just kind of going back into human psychology. It's like we we trade information for stuff, and that stuff is friendship. And we want to trust people like I want to be able to send Rusted a picture and and it's like, hey, I'm giving you something that I can trust you you can't really want to, but but Dad, what do you think about it? You know, it was very revealing, even though I think deep down most of us realize why we share information. In my thoughts on it change, you know, off and on. Like I just had the thought that, um, we share for entertainment. I get this with some of my writing buddies, where uh you know, one goes, hey, man, I'm right in the middle of a business deal. I'm not. I just can't talk about fun stuff. I mean, that's the exact words. I don't have time to talk about fun stuff. So we love to share. I can't wait to tell him something that I've done with my machine, you know, I want to talk about it. So it's really fun. It's like you take a trip and people say preparation is as much fun as your vacation and a hunting trip. Especially you're preparing, you're shooting your bowl, you're getting your equipment, you're buying is buying that you're getting ready. That's as much fun as going out there and sitting in a tree for five or six days and not seeing a deer. You know what I means. So there's a social aspect I to interest. I'd be interested to see what you say about that. But that's entertainment, and most of that entertainment I think is survival. You know, I'm trying to survive. I'm Gary Nukelem. I'm trying to survive. I gotta have mental health, physical health. I can just go to spiritual, I can just go down the list. I need all that to be healthy. And to be healthy I got. I can't be taken care of day and route. I got to take care of me. None of us can. So yeah, so you know, we we do things to make each of those aspects of our life stronger. You know. I want to build my image up in Dan's eye so he will respect me more. I want to show him a picture of this, dear, so he'll know for sure that I'm probably a better hunter than Clay, you know. I mean so so everything you said I agree with. Where would you put the entertainment though? But you didn't put the entertainment in there? It's because I'm not very good. But as as you're as just even as you're saying, entertainment makes me think. You know, a lot of times entertainment we can kind of talk about it almost has like a negative connotation. Oh you're just way send your time on so much entertainment or we'll go to some kind of entertainment to distract ourselves from what we really need to be doing. But sharing things that bring us joy has ammense amount of value. I mean, that's really what entertainment is That not relationship building that relationship I think that would be like a subcategory, because you're not sharing entertaining stuff with someone that you aren't, that doesn't have some interest in what you're doing. And you're trying to say, Man, I need somebody that will laugh with me today, and you and you're it's more than if social media is kind of pseudo identity validation. I get a like and I kind of feel better, but also don't like Rusty, so I knew that he even looked at you. Agree with me that curly beard. I know why they call you curly. But but you know, like watching the TV show, that's one thing that's entertaining. But going out and sharing an experience in the real world that you both value and you both derive joy from, and that's true entertainment, and it builds true, you know, really deep relationships. There's a ton of you, I would say, and I'm building off what you're saying because there there are plenty of It's it's not like, yeah, this was like an exhaustive look into human psychology, but entertainment would be or or just having fun. It's a massive part. I mean, I am friends with people that I have fun with. I mean, I'm very friends with very few people in a deep way that I don't enjoy and laugh with them. I mean, and I think, because if you're gonna have phone somebody, you've got to be able to relax. And you got And it's almost as if whatever kind of facade you put up wherever you go to think, you gotta be a certain way when you're around somebody that you can really let your guard down. I feel like that stick on mustach Dan. I feel like if I could let that go a doubt, then I could really enjoy something. And I only let that guard down with certain people. And so maybe the real secret is like me being my my myself, you know, and I reveal that to certain people and then I can really enjoy, you know, whatever it is we're doing. Hey, we're we love to tell stories. I mean, it's if I've got a good story, I mean, it's I can't hardly like when you were going, Dad, I want to hear something from you. I didn't. I didn't get too excited about telling about the fire. I was thinking about some other stuff I'd love to tell, you know. So, I mean, it's it's fun, it's it's it does something internally. You just like it. You know, you're the center of attention. You're you're just doing what you wanna do. So yeah, I think that's really important in our lives is to have something to say that has meaning to other people and you can get their attention. What gives it value is that when you tell the story and we tell you, yeah, that was a great story. You just in whatever way we do that, you know that that is really meaningful. It validates identity. It really does. When I stand up and tell a story and you guys laugh, it reinforces to me that I am who I thought I was, you know. I mean, that's just the truth. You know what I'm saying, you know, the way that gets away from secrets. But the secret could be I'm doing that to build myself up in Rusty's eyes. He didn't know me, you know, so I'm trying to tell a story to press him that, hey, this is really a good guy. Are this guy is a great hunt or whatever? Thost things are real selfish? You know, Rusty, what what do you think? Well, I mean I had fun doing it, but I got kind of a story too. So after the podcast, my son Rustin, he's like dad, he said, you know, you've taught me a lot of stuff. And he said, A mainly picked it up by just watching you. He said, you are so secretive. You're so used to keeping everything such a secret. You don't even open up to your own son. He said, why not? He said, you should, of all people, you should open up to me about everything that you know. Everything that you know got real. Yeah, And I said, you got a good point. I mean, um, I want to be so secretive about all this stuff that I'd neglect my own son. Now, just to clarify that, the on the podcast you talked about how your son who who who? I know and as a friend of mine resting is that your adult son he's how's rusting that? I mean, you guys hunt together like you're I mean like best friends. I mean y'all hunt so y'all he's not talking, You're not keeping hunting secrets from him. Uh, look at the other take. I mean, I mean it's not like you're I mean year sharing, dear, So what tell me what he's talking about? Just like certain like strategies and you know, why do you do this or why do you not do this? He says that I don't explain myself, you know, if I'm doing something, I'm just expecting him to watch and figured out on his own communication. He's not saying, Dad, you're withholding meat. Yeah, he's just saying, you're you're so used to not communicating, you're not communicating with I'm not purposely withholding information from him. And my dad was the same way. He did not purposely withhold stuff, but I mean he was he didn't communicate. He was so secretive of a guy that he would not just open up and just freely communicate verbally to what he was doing and why he was doing it. I had to really watch and it took years of watching him doing what he does. And our friend Dalton, he says the same thing. He's like, man, he said, I've picked up so many things just by being around you, without you even having to say anything. You know, I've learned a lot basically through osmosis, you know. But Rustan' is like, man, he said, you you need to just open up to me and just just tell me everything and explain everything. Just open up. And I think, I mean, I find myself not doing that when I should be doing that, especially to him. It does say a lot that he feels like he can say that to you, you know, and I think that says it done. He wants to you guys are obviously close, but the fact that he can say that means he just wants even more of it. I mean, this podcast is actually I mean, it's opened my eyes to some stuff like that that that I think it's gonna help me in him. What do you think just in general? Just in general, I mean, did it? And uh, I've had several texts. I've even talked a couple of my friends and you know, they said, that's very interesting, said, we didn't realize that, you know, you were holding out on like a couple I'm telling me. They said, what have you not told us about or what have you not showed us a picture have? I said, Well, you probably never know, because if I haven't showed you by now, I'm not going to tell you either. One. So we had some pretty good laughs about that, Like I said, in person or on the phone or even by text message. They've been several people with my friends, my hunting friends, and even some of my work friends that listen to it and stuff. Mo are now I know that you and your wife hunting fish together. Are there pictures of game on your phone that you won't show your wife? I don't think so. Okay, just checking, just check it out. I know you better, baby. I want to show you a picture of this buck. She doesn't deer hunt a lot. She likes to go when the weather is nice, and stuff like that. You don't like the cold and stuff. I don't figure I can't figure out why why wives are so contingent on the weather. Favorite your favorite thing to turkey? She love us to turkey. Huh. So that's how I met Mo turkey hunting on the youth years ago, down by a spot that's right, and he's a heck of a turkey guy. M hmm. Yeah, Dan, what was your overall take of it? I mean you we we you were on the podcast, but but any any thoughts afterwards? No? Similar? How do you feel like you did? Okay, it's actually similar to Rusty, So I've got Uh, if my daughter was ever interested in be awesome. But I've got three sons who's varying degrees are right now, they're six, fourteen, and twelve into varying degrees. You know. We've just been back in the States functionally to kind of hunt for about a year, and um, I think after even talking it out loud with you and then thinking about it and realizing how much of how important it is to me, like what happens inside of me when I hunt and I do what I do. I've never wanted to force anything, especially on my boys. I wanted them to feel like they could kind of decide who they were for themselves, and they wanted to do something like I do. That's great. But if not that, I'm gonna in a way kind of with that kind of stuff that I deem is like entertainment, well Gary said, or kind of like almost like a hobby. I don't want to shove that down there, you know who they are, but I think so one of the things that I'm gonna do is this summer. Over the summer, I'm gonna get set up to where I can take my boys out in a tree with me. You know, I've only been hunting back in the woods for a This is my first fall back in the woods after being gone for a long time. But I just think, but I gotta get my boys out there. They gotta they gotta have this opportunity because it's way more It is entertainment, and it is a hobby and it's fun, but it's also part of who I am, and my boys will want that, and and I want to give them the opportunity to try about sending them with the rusty how that beard? Have you seen it? More secrets than all of us have been anywhere. I think I've seen part of a hog wall to fall out. No, that's my main kind of like, that's a big part. I mean, it's a huge part of who I am and my boys. I don't know how much they know that, and I know if I don't, but there will come a day when I mean, you've shared a ton with your son, clearly, but I know my boys will. There will come a day when they're like, hey, why don't you so, Like, that's my top priority this summer is getting set up to where when you know, I'm white tills, I'm not much of a buck hunter. I I really dial in on the dose. That's good. I can say something to you. I've taken a lot of young kids for their first turkey hunt, their first deer hunt, bear hunts, you know, cousins, nephews, uh, stuff like that, And I unlike what Rusty was talking about his son. That's something I'm pretty sacredive with my hunting buddies and stay if you know. But when it's the youth I've got with me, I find myself sharing a lot of stuff. I'll tell them, you know, I've done this because we're doing this because it helps us do this or helps us stand a chance of doing this. But I also learned that to keep them interested, no matter what, you gotta when you're hunting with the youth, with it your kids or somebody else, you gotta keep it fun for him when when they're ready to go. Don't care if there's three deer walking in front of your blind out there. Let's go. Let's go, because if you get them, you get them more out on it. They they don't, they come disinterested in it. So I thought i'd put that in. Benji said, that's great, that's great, you know. I think I think the main thing is that and I hope what a podcast like this will do with just get people thinking, you know, just kind of thinking about why we do the things we do, because I've said it so many times on on Bear Grease that I'm I'm very interested in the things that drive us that we don't consciously make decisions about know we don't and and I think that self awareness is pretty important. So regardless of if if somebody comes to the conclusions that that we did, or maybe their situation is slightly different, but the idea is that make people think and just kind of become more aware of why you do what you do, because there's there's always reasons why we do what we do and we just kind of flow on autopilot. And you know, so we talked about social media and I probably end up talking about this more later on some other podcast because I think it's so interesting. But uh, you know, the social media stuff really is a new human experience. Excuse me, a new human experiment really is I mean, when you think about we are extremely primitive beings, and I mean that in the most literal way. I mean, we we live in this modern world and there's things that human have done for thousands and thousands and thousands of years that have made us the way that we are, and we're now doing a whole bunch of new stuff that we've never done before. And it truly is it's like, who knows what should the earth persist in another fifty years? Will be like holy cow, that Instagram, Facebook and TikTok was like crack cocaine and literally rotted our brains out. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but we don't know the consequences of a lot of the stuff we're doing. And I mean that's just the truth. And it might sound far fetched, but it's actually not. You know, you look back at all kind of stuff that humans have done that in the moment they you know, didn't understand and obviously you know that it would be more social consequences, you know. Um, but uh, and we we really didn't even scratch the surface of it. We just kind of introduced this idea of validation and identity as it relates to social media, and um, you know, some people can you know, if the shoe fits where it it doesn't don't. But what do you think, Josh, You're trying to build a social media empire. It's it's it's coming along, can't in your tail. No, I think I'll be okay. If I wake up in the morning and all my followers are gone, I think I'll be okay. Yeah, it is. It is interesting though that you see so many people like, like I've the term influencer now. I mean, it's just thrown around and it's like a status symbol. And really, you know, when you think about it and when you think about the things that really matter in life. Um, you know, I I do. I do want to influence people with my life, but I also want to come in contact with people. I want people to know who I am, not just what I portray, you know, And and so I think the relational aspect of things is way more important to me than a picture I put on Instagram or Facebook. And you know, it just in the in the simple example with Keith. You know, I've never met Keith until this weekend. We've communicated on on Instagram and when he messaged me, I said, man, let's go together. And because those that's what's really valuable to me. And uh, I think those are the things that are gonna help you. I mean, we have an epidemic right now of of mental health and relational disconnection and to be able to spend time with people and to share life. That's what's really valuable. And uh, I think I think, I think it's great with rust and shared with you, Rusty. Just hey, Dad, I want more, basically saying I want more of you. I don't want just the information. I want more of you and to have your your immediate relational sphere reach out to you like that means a lot. And how many dads would kill to have their sons say that? And then how many sons would kill to have a dad that they feel like they could say that too, Well, that's phenomenal. Well. The only thought I have, and I sure don't know the answer to it, is why why do I want to be on Instagram? Am I trying to create an image of myself to other people? I mean I find it entertaining. Why do people want to be on Facebook? What are we doing? I mean, you know, what's the deal? And we all do it. It's apparently in all of us, this experience that you're talking about, this experiment we're going through. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's who would have ever thought people would want to put their life out there in front of everybody to look at. Course you you have the ability to pick what you put. Yeah, I remember when Facebook. I remember us making fun of Facebook, like people saying, man, people are like putting like, oh, I'm washing clothes today. Remember when Facebook, Like when you got on it, when it first came out, it would say like Josh Spiellmaker is and then it had the blank And I just always felt like, who in the world would care that I'm doing the laundry right now? And I think, like what you said earlier, Gary, like what what makes us want to do that? It's the same thing, like you got a really good story you want to share. And if I know I've got a really good story and I'm halfway decent at sharing it, I love sharing it because I know the buddies that I shared it with, I'll have the room and I'll have that feeling like they like me, they validate me. I'm as cool as I would like to think I am, at least for a moment. And I think there's a twinge of that inside of every time I've got something, I actually think if I put it on Instagram somebody might like it. I'm like, oh, well, this would be cool. It's that same kind of moment before I'm gonna tell this story to the little group that I'm in, But now it's so much easier to do because a picture, to me, is easier to post than actually like saying something digital. It's a utal version of of of what happening inside of relationships. I mean, like, you know, when I go to Instagram or Facebook, like I am just exponentially increasing the amount of people that hear about my fishing trip, my dear, my turkey, or what I do with my family. Professionals have that, but the average lady sitting in a home or me sing in my home, I'm not too sure we're not trying to cultivate a healthy image of ourselves. I mean, I never show a picture of my stuff. I like when it's dirty, you know, it's always clean and shiny, and so I mean I think we're we're trying to create something that that. Yeah, there's a little truth to I will say, Look on my Instagram, it's nothing but those on there I'm posting. That's exactly hey, But even the professionals on Instagram, and I'm pointing to Clay, they're doing in the same thing. They're they're putting an image on there and there. It's clean. You're just they're branding themselves to make more money. I think we're branding ourselves. We're all so much alike. I'm so much like the Clovis people. Yeah, I mean it hadn't changed much really in uh, you know, we're all pretty much a lot. We've been telling stories and trying to grab the room since the beginning of time, and now we just have a little different way of doing it Spacebook or its Instagram. Who knows what will be in a decade, but it's still we're trying to tell a story and get recognition and form a like a kind of community around ourselves. The same song, you know, the stuff you see in caves. I mean it's like, look at this big buck I killed exactly, but draw those on the caves. I do not like Rusty big Bison. Hey, I had a guy this week send me a replica fulsome point, but it was it was it's it's not stone. It's a three D, a three D printed fulsome as I understand it. He was there when it was found and yeah, I don't have it. I don't have it in my hand. Three D. He found he found He was with somebody when they found a real falsome point, I mean just incredible fulsome point. I'll show it to you guys later. And super thin. I mean just like it's thin as the bill of that hat. And um, when you just look at every single angle on it, the fluting on it is concave and just beautiful. And anyway, he sent me a really nice letter. Um, his last name is Bender. I've got to get around to He wrote me a letter. I wish you'd give his hand letter. Yeah, hand was beautiful people, that man he did and he knew it. I'd read it and I did. Um, but it was really it was really cool. Yeah. I know, I don't even know where the post office is in this town. Um. Hey, okay, March the Five. If you want to talk about bears, bear hunting in this part of the world, Mid America, the Southern Highlands. Uh, come to Rogers, Arkansas, March the five mo is gonna be there. Uh, Joshua be there. I don't know, maybe Dan will be there. I'm um, we're gonna it's called Black Bear Bonanza, Arkansas. B H is putting it on and we're gonna it's gonna be It's a real deal. Lineup, We're gonna have a black bear biologist panel. I'm pretty sure that Arkansas bear biologist Myron Means will be there. I believe Laura Conley, the Missouri Bara biologists or or yeah, large carnivore biologists up there will be there, and probably somebody from Oklahoma. And uh, I'm gonna be there. We're gonna have al hooting contest. Man, I would drive across the country to go to a real, live al hooting contest. Yep, you're gonna have to compete against most shepherds. Not good. Hey, I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give a foreshadow and sneak peak that will blow your mind. Two days ago, I was in will Premost house and we al hooted. I he al hooted for me, I al hooted for him. And I'm not gonna tell you what. I'm probably the same. I found al hooters don't improve much. They just kind of either have it that you play out. But how about that, that's pretty cool. You'll you'll see it. That's pretty cool, trust me, you'll see it. We did. We did a little crow calling too. Is he'll be seven weeks say his age. I mean we're just telling all yeah, I mean he keeps some secrets. I mean he was young when I was young. He was young. So I'll just leave it there. That was a foreshadow. So march fist come. It's all day event. I think we're gonna try to render some bear fat. There's a lot of stuff going on. Where's that Quail barn and Rogers an event center type deal, uh number two. As we're closing down, you can buy bear grease hats now on the meat eater dot com. That man, they were out of stock for like four months and they just they just came back in and so I ordered mine the other day. Why I ordered mine for me? Good man? You know what, Sometimes promises don't come through as quickly as you'd like him to. And I have nothing to do with that. Unfore cly. Uh, they're coming. Yeah, we're gonna have some believer. It's got a black panther on it. You gotta believer and it's gonna happen. Um, So that's gonna happen. There's also some Bargreay shirts. There's one that says acorn and it's got an acorn with a big mustache and says beargrease. A shirt that's a great shirt. There's also a shirt. Those are on the website. Yeah, those are for sale. You can buy those right now. There's a shirt that has a jar, a Mason jar of bear grease and it says bear grease and it has lists all the things you can do with beargrease. And there's another one that I haven't promoted that's a big barred owl flying through the air and it says who hoo hoo hoo, who hoo hoo hoo hoo bard owl like a quote. You see what I'm saying. That's awesome. Yeah, so anyway, bart owl bear grease um. And then uh, the the acorn shirt. So you can check all that out. Thanks guys. Hey, I hope it was clear that the reason I could interrogate these guys like I did, it's because these are two of the best deer hunters that I know, bar none for sure. So that's the only reason I can manhandle these guys. And it's an honor to be in the room. You don't know all that many hunters in do you know? You guys, both of you guys for sure, at the at the very top of the heap in my book for this part of the world for sure. So thank you guys for being a part of the Enjoyed podcast. Rest you Doe Hunters. Good did you have it? You want to tell us that story you were dying to tell? No, not really, you know, you know the thing that I enjoyed the most right now is just you know, getting out in the wilderness and of side side so you know, but no, no, I done. Secret secret You have to wait getting down the wheel, to wait on the side of the ground, burned to the ground. You want to see that picture, It's on my Instagram. Thanks guys,