00:00:05 Speaker 1: The Mississippi River is so central every element of American history. The entire system was key to all transportation and communication across much of the country. 00:00:18 Speaker 2: On this episode, we're talking about what some Native American tribes called the river beyond any Age, and others called it the Father of waters. We're talking about the Mississippi River. This is a big bite, and it will take a diverse cast of storytellers for us to understand the river and its impact on America. New York Times bestselling author John Berry will be our guests, along with author Hank Berdine. A hydraulic engineer also will be here, a fisheries biologist, and a feller by the name of Will Primos, And we'll even hear the words of Mark Twain and T. S. 00:00:55 Speaker 3: Eliott. 00:00:56 Speaker 2: This has been a long time coming for me, and I'm on a personal journey to understand the significance of this American river on this country and on my life. The current will be swift in the water muddy, but I really doubt that you're gonna want to miss this one. 00:01:13 Speaker 4: You got the West Coast, you got the Gulf Coast, you got to Atlantic Coast, and you've got the Missippi River on and right up the middle of America. 00:01:21 Speaker 3: That's the fourth Coast. 00:01:31 Speaker 2: My name is Klay nukemb and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who live their lives close to the land. Presented by FHF gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore. 00:02:06 Speaker 1: I do not know much about gods, but I think that the River is a strong brown god, sullen, untamed, and intractable, patient to some degree. At first recognized as a frontier, useful, untrustworthy as a conveyor of commerce, then only a problem confronting the builder of bridges. The problem, once solved, the brown God is almost forgotten by the dwellers in cities. Ever, however, implacable, keeping his seasons and rages destroyer reminder of what men choose to forget, unhonored, unpropitiated by worshippers of the machine. But watching, waiting, and watching. 00:03:06 Speaker 2: I'm in a twenty three foot flat bottom boat. She's sturdy, but looks like she's been up the river a few times, but so does my captain Hank. Where are we going, Hank? 00:03:19 Speaker 3: On the river, the Mississippi River. 00:03:23 Speaker 2: I once asked Hank how old he was, and he told me he quit keeping track, but he thought his daughter knew. His hair looks like a cluster of white cotton balls. His face shows the dignity of age, and his accent sounds about what you figure an alligator would sound like. 00:03:40 Speaker 4: I mean Lay Fertherson that used to be the river in nineteen thirty eight, took out the gravel, bene created the flag of water harbor. 00:03:52 Speaker 3: He got thirty eight mile to the river. Lem he running up and I see what he did. 00:04:05 Speaker 2: The river is always changing. The only constant of an alluvial river is change. Only in the last one hundred and fifty years has that change been induced by man. This is the story of an ancient, untameable system in man's connection to it. That poem that you heard a few minutes ago, the one that said, I think the river is a strong brown god. This is the beginning of a poem by T. S. Eliot describing the Mississippi River. But that was the voice reading it of the author John Barry. He wrote a book in nineteen ninety seven called Rising Tide, The Great Mississippi Flood of nineteen twenty seven and How It Changed America. The book is considered by many to be one of the top works of American non fiction in modern times. This is the opening paragraph of his book. The Valley of the Mississippi River stretches north into Canada and south to the Gulf of Mexico, east from New York and North Carolina, and west to Idaho and New Mexico. It is a valley twenty percent larger than that of China's Yellow River, double that of Africa's Nile, and India's Ganges, fifteen times that of Europe's Rhine. Within it lies forty one percent of the continentally United States, including all or part of thirty one states. No river in Europe, no river in the Orient, no river in the ancient civilized world compares to it. Only the Amazon and barely the Congo have a larger drainage basin measured from the head of its tributary. The Missouri River as a logical starting point as any. The Mississippi is the longest river in the world, and it pulses like the artery of the American heartland. To control the Mississippi River, not simply to find a modus vivendi with it, but to control it, to dictate it, to make it conform, is a mighty task. It requires more than confidence, It requires hubris. This is a big river that helped define the American character. This is a big story. I've always been mesmerized and frankly fearful of big dark water. But why is this water dark? Like a strong brown god. The answer to this question is core to the identity of the river. Here's our boat captain and lifelong connoisseur of dark water, Hank Burdine. 00:06:40 Speaker 3: To me, it's all about the dirt. It's the dirt. 00:06:44 Speaker 4: It's the dirt that has come from forty one percent of the continental United States, in two provinces of Canada, all the way from the Allegany Mountain to New York to the Rocky Mountain of Montana. It's the watershed. It has brought what we call the Mississippi Delta and form the Misissippi Delta, which is the alluvial bottomland area of the Mississippi in the y Azure River. We call it the delta, and through the millenniums, the floods every year spring time winter time have brought saw from all over this country down here. 00:07:25 Speaker 2: If we could anthropomorphize the river and view it as a living bean, this monstrous alluvial river acts with great force to do one thing, move dirt. Moving dirt is its obsession, it's daily bread. Stay with me for a minute for a metaphor. If the banks of the river were the skeleton of a great beast and the floodplain its flesh, the water would be its blood, and the sediment load the dirt that the water carries would be the life in the blood. The river is furious and relentless in moving Dirt's one thing it can't not do. And we can't understand the story of this river until we understand the inner motivations and workings of the river. Though it is not a sentient being, it operates like one when it comes to adherence to the mission, and that mission influences man. I'm wildly interested in how natural systems impact men in ways we don't perceive. Alluvial rivers are incredibly complex. Water turbulence of river hydraulics are mysterious. A famous physicist once said that he'd like to ask God too questions, why relativity and why turbulence? And then he said, I think God may have the answer to the first question, insinuating that God doesn't even understand turbulence. I take umbrage at the assumption, but I get the point. It's complex, and there are people who've dedicated their lives to understanding rivers. 00:08:58 Speaker 5: When I first went to work with the Vicksburg District Corp of Engineers, I was in what they called the potomology section. Potomology is not probably ringing a beil with you. Nope, it doesn't ring a bell with most anybody. But potomology is a science of rivers. 00:09:16 Speaker 2: That was doctor David Beadenharn, a research hydraulic engineer for the Core of Engineers in Vicksburg, Mississippi. In his own words, he's a river geek. He's got an equation drawn on a whiteboard, and we're about to get a science lesson. 00:09:31 Speaker 5: Actually, i've drawn it up on the board there. That's not an equation up at the top. That's a relationship that says that the water discharge, how much water is in the river times the slope of the river. How steep is the river. That's what we call stream power. That's the ability of the river to do work. Rivers they can either have more water to get energy, or they can increase their slope to get more energy and discharge. Q try and slope. It's a surrogate for a stream power. 00:10:05 Speaker 2: The energy and work is moving sediment moving exactly. 00:10:08 Speaker 5: And that's the other side of the relationship that Q subs. That's the settlement load. That's how much sediment is moving. So on the left hand side of that relationship is the power. 00:10:21 Speaker 3: And the energy that a river has. 00:10:23 Speaker 5: And on the right hand side is what it is doing that spending that power and energy to do do work and move sediment. That's the way rivers behave. 00:10:33 Speaker 2: Stream power is the river's ability to do work. That's the way rivers behave. Like a beaver building dams. The core of this river is moving dirt. Here's an example of how much dirt the river can move and how quickly it can be done. A revetment, which he's about to talk about, is a concrete mattress placed on the riverbank to stop erosion. 00:10:57 Speaker 5: It was down in the New Orleans district where the revetment was placed on the river bank in nineteen seventy eight, and the mattress goes, you know, from top bank all the way down to what we call the thowl wag of the river of thoal Wag is just the lowest point in the cross section of the cover, so the bottom of the river, okayvalwag. They came back and they surveyed it and at the bed of the river where the mattress met the bed back in nineteen seventy eight, they surveyed it in May of nineteen eighty four. It is scoured sixty feet. Sixty feet is a pretty big scour hole. Wow, well, that got their attention, so they mobilize the troops. They're going to come back in and do some repair work to make sure that revetment is stable and so in the process. One month later, in June of nineteen eighty four, they came back to get another survey to know exactly what they had. It filled back in forty feet. 00:11:55 Speaker 2: That's an incredible amount of dirt moving around in a sixty foot dar deep scour. Filling in forty feet in a month, that's incredible. Here's another excerpt from John Berry's rising tide, the river's main current can reach nine miles an hour, while some currents can move much faster During floods, measurable effects of an approaching floodcrest can roar down river at almost eighteen miles an hour. And for the last four hundred and fifty miles of the Mississippi's flow, the river bed lies below sea level, fifteen feet below sea level at Vicksburg well over one hundred and seventy feet below sea level at New Orleans. For this four hundred and fifty miles, the water on the bottom has no reason to flow at all, but the water above it does. This creates a tumbling effect as water spills over itself like an enormous, ever breaking internal wave. This tumbling effect can attack a river bank or a levee like a buzzsaal. But the final complexity of the lower mia Mississippi is its sediment load, an understanding that was key to understanding how to control the river. Every day, the river deposits between several hundred thousand and several million tons of earth into the Gulf of Mexico. At least some geologists put this figure even higher. Historically, at an average of more than two million tons a day by geologic standards. The Lower Mississippi is a young, even infant stream and runs through what is known as the Mississippi Embayment, a declevity covering approximately thirty five thousand miles that begins thirty miles north of Kiro to Cape Girardo, Missouri, geologically the true head of the Mississippi Delta, and extends to the Gulf of Mexico. At one time, the Gulf itself reached to Cape Girardo. Then sea level fell. Over thousands of years, the river and its tributaries have poured twelve hundred and eighty cubic miles of sediment, the equivalent of twelve hundred and eighty separate mountains of earth, each one mile high, a mile wide, and a mile long, into this declevity. Aided by the falling sea level, this sediment filled in the Embayment and made land throughout the mississippis alluvial valley. This sedimentary deposit has an average thickness of one hundred and thirty two feet. In some areas the deposits reach down three hundred and fifty feet. Its weight is great enough that some geologists believe its downward pressure pushed up surrounding land, creating hills. We've had a poet T. S. Eliot, a delta philosopher Hank Berdine, a writer John Barry, and a hydrologist, doctor Beadenharn tell us the same thing. It's all about the dirt where science, culture and art meet. That's where you find the story. An alluvial river is one in which the banks are mobile and shift. It meanders and weaves through its floodplain, as opposed to a river with bedroo banks in a bed that never shifts. The floodplain is the area along the river subject to flooding. The Mississippi has been putting on a dirt moving clinic since before the first humans arrived on this continent and when giant ground sloss walked on their knuckles on its banks. But to understand the Mississippi River today, we've got to understand the size of its drainage basin. Thirty one states two Canadian provinces are drained by the river. Here's John Berry. 00:15:32 Speaker 1: Well, the drainage basin is the third largest drainage basin. You know, the Amazon's the biggest, and the Nile just barely edges out the Mississi. 00:15:42 Speaker 2: Square mileage of drainage. 00:15:44 Speaker 1: It's like one point two four million square miles, Okay, So that's it's a lot of square miles. And you know, in terms of flow, you know, the state of Texas is looking out twenty thirty years to its water needs, and it thinks it needs something like ten million acre feet of water in future years to meet its needs. A year in flood, the Mississippi River is carrying in a great flood, you know, maybe four and a half million acre feet a day. So you just think of that, that a couple of days flow of the Mississippi River in a flood is it would be enough to satisfy all the water needs for the state of Texas for a year. You know, when I think of the Mississippi River, I actually think of the entire system. When you think of it, you may just think of essentially a straight line from Minnesota to the Gulf, but that's not how I conceive of it. 00:16:44 Speaker 2: In the world, only the Amazon and Nile rivers have larger drainage basins. That's an incredible amount of water, and an acre foot is a weird unit of measurement to understand, but it's the amount of water needed to flood one acre at the depth of one foot. It takes a lot of voices to tell a story about the Mississippi River. This is doctor Jack Kilgore with two l's, a fisheries biologist for the corp of Engineers, telling the most unique feature of the river today. This is something to be proud of. 00:17:16 Speaker 6: All the other great rivers of the word, the Congo, the Nile of the ynt Sea, all of those they have dams near the mouth of the river, whereas the Mississippi, the first damn you encounter is up in Saint Louis, which is twelve hundred miles up. However, a fish can take a left on the Missouri and go another twelve hundred miles to the Gavin's Point damn on the Missouri. So I tell people this that if you put all of that together, there's almost twenty four hundred miles of free flowing Mississippi Missouri River. There's nothing else like that in the world except for the Amazon. All the other great rivers have been dammed, which influences settiment, transport, water quality, migratory fish, you know, has all those negative impacts. 00:18:07 Speaker 2: The Missouri River is roughly twenty four hundred miles long and is America's longest river. It's longer than the Mississippi. It is dammed twelve hundred miles from its mouth. The Mississippi River, give or take, is about twenty three hundred and fifty miles in length from its headwater on Lake Atasca in Minnesota to the Gulf of Mexico. The first dam of the Mississippi River is in Saint Louis, one thousand miles from its mouth at the gulf. That's also where the Missouri runs into the Mississippi. I hope this is all adding up to you. That's a lot of numbers unless you've got a scratch pad. Let me do the math. Combining the Missouri and Mississippi. There's almost twenty four hundred miles of free flowing river free of dams. Free flowing means free of dams. This is major. It's probably even tattoo worthy. I can see it now, the number twenty four hundred sketched over a muddy river with an American flag blowing on the bank, with an eagle flying through the sky. I'm kidding. Don't get that tattooed. 00:19:12 Speaker 3: On you. 00:19:12 Speaker 2: But long before America had a flag and tattoos were trendy, this land had the river. But how long has the river been here? Here's doctor Kilgore. 00:19:25 Speaker 6: Really, it was formed at the end of when the glaciers began to melt about ten thousand years ago, and all of that glacial and all that material started pouring down and creating this meandering river. It became kind of more of a braided river because of all that washlow. It remained unchanged for ten thousand years, and then in nineteen thirty the Core came in there and started their Massy flood control project, and that's what locked the river in place. 00:19:56 Speaker 2: That was a simple answer to a very complex question. And I can't keep these guys from getting too far ahead in our story. He just jumped from ten thousand years ago to the infamous nineteen twenty seven flood like it was a ballet step. We'll talk about that later, Doc. Basically, the river has been in its current form since the last ice age, which ended ten thousand years ago. The Mississippi River Valley drainage basin, the whole thing from the Rockies to the Appalachians was formed by the Laurentide ice sheet and carved out the valley over seventy million years ago. I think it's kind of arrogant to name an ice sheet like you'd name a pet, but whatever, I understand the pragmatism of it. But no human that our culture has had correspondence with saw this ice sheet to report about it to us. And I'm not saying that because I doubt that it was there. The ice sheet was there, but it's just kind of wild the amount of data that we can pull from the Earth's cryptic diary about its past life. It has recording mechanisms that take the form of glacially formed valley in lakes, mysterious piles of rock, and striations on bedrock that came from a two mile deep cap of ice that covered two thirds of North America. Lord have mercy. Perhaps it is self focused, but natural systems make more sense to us when we understand their overlap with our story, the human story. We've truly gotten no way of knowing who or where the first humans saw the Mississippi River, and it's kind of unfair that we give the Spaniard Hernando de Soto so much fanfare for being the first European to see the river in fifteen forty one, which he was, or you know, someone from his crew. But I'd like to take a minute and think about the first human that ever saw the river. Just slow down for a second. There was a very primitive man or woman that was the first to see it, or maybe it was a group of travelers who saw it all about the same time. Most archaeologists believed that the first humans on this continent came across the baring Land Bridge about fifteen thousand years ago, So that story would have these people approaching the river from the west. Now this is personal speculation. I've never read this, but it seems like it would have been somewhere south of Missouri, which was the southernmost tip of the Laurentide ice sheet. You should name your next dog Laurentide or even your kid without getting into a geology lesson. If that assumption is true, it's unlikely they'd have traveled across the Ozarks to get to the river, but likely went down the Arkansas River Valley, traveling in a southwesterly direction, perhaps seeing this great river for the first time around where the Arkansas and Mississippi meet. This is not scientific. It's just an exercise on a mental treadmill. 00:22:55 Speaker 5: You know. 00:22:55 Speaker 2: The story of human migration coming from the west is contested by the cosmology of the Cherokee and others, who say they entered this land from the south, crossing a great passage of water. My point is this, we know a lot of stuff, but the best minds in the world will never know the answer of who saw the Mississippi River first. Hernando de Soto was the first to write it down in an English based language. He had been on a great expedition from Florida to what is now Tennessee and approached from the east and likely saw it near current Memphis in fifteen forty one. He originally called it the River of the Holy Spirit, spoken in Spanish. Of course, De Soto's trek through the Southern US is probably as wild and experienced as a human has ever had. For both the Spanish and the Native Americans, this was the native's first contact with Europeans, their first time seeing horses, war dogs, and pigs. It would have been like coming into contact with aliens. It was also their first contact with the diseases of the modern cities of Europe. De Soto crossed the river into Arkansas. He was the first European to see it and cross it. And when he got here, the Mississippi River Valley was a thriving civilization of many nations of indigenous people. Many natives believe De Soto was a god, which was good for his purposes of looking for gold and land. He didn't find gold, however, in May fifteen forty two, De Soto, at age forty two, would die of fever and his men would bury him in the river. And this next part of the story is almost too wild, But no Europeans came back for one hundred and twenty years. One hundred and twenty years. That's an incredible gap of time. Okay, So now I would like to introduce you to another character in our eclectic cast of Mississippi River storytellers. A big river takes a lot of voices. This man's name is Samuel Clemens. You may know him as Mark Twain. In eighteen eighty three he published a book called Life on the Mississippi, and he had something to say about De Soto and this mysterious one hundred and twenty year gap. De Soto merely glimpsed the river died and was buried in it by his priests and soldiers. One would expect the priests and soldiers to multiply the river's dimensions by ten, the Spanish custom of the day, and thus move other adventurers to go at once and explore it. On the contrary, their narratives when they reached home did not excite that amount of curiosity. The Mississippi was left unvisited by whites during a term of years that seems incredible in our energetic days. One may sense the interval to his mind, after a fashion, by dividing it up in this way. After de Soto glimpsed the river, a fraction short of a quarter century had elapsed, and then Shakespeare was born, lived a trifle more than a half century, then died, and when he had been in his grave considerably more than half a century, the second white man saw the Mississippi. In our day, we don't allow one hundred and thirty years to elapse between glimpses of a marvel. For more than one hundred and fifty years there has been white settlements on our Atlantic coasts. These people were in intimate communication with the Indians in the south. The Spaniards were robbing, slaughtering, and slaving and converting them. Necessarily, then these various clusters of whites must have heard of the great river of the far West, And indeed they did hear of it vaguely, so vaguely and indefinitely that its course, proportions, and locality were hardly even guessable. The mere mysteriousness of the matter ought to have fired curiosity and compelled exploration. But this did not occur. Apparently nobody happened to want such a river, nobody needed, nobody was curious about it. So for a century and a half the Mississippi remained out of the market and undisturbed. When de Soto found it, he was not hunting for a river, and he had no present occasion for one. Consequently, he did not value it or even take any particular notice of it. But at last LaSalle the Frenchman, conceived the idea of seeking out that river and exploring it. It always happens that when a man seizes upon a neglected and important idea, people inflamed with the same notion crop up all around. It happened, so in this instance, naturally, the question suggests itself why did these people want the river now when nobody had wanted it in the five preceding generations. Apparently it was because at this late day they thought they had discovered a way to make it useful. For it had come to be believed that the Mississippi emptied into the Gulf of California and therefore added a short cut from Canada to China. Previously, the supposition had been that it emptied into the Atlantic or the Sea of Virginia. Twain's prose in this book is some of America's finest literature, but he also dropped a history lesson on us, describing in detail that one hundred and twenty year gap between De Soto and LaSalle, and when Lasau arrived he found the great civilization. De Soto described almost gone. The people were gone, the cities were ruins. It's believe that during that gap, the European diseases that De Soto brought with him almost wiped out the Native Americans. That's almost unfathomable. Can you imagine your people dying a mysterious death over the course of several generations. Can you imagine living on the Atlantic coast and not knowing where the Mississippi River emptied. Can you imagine the unknowns of a world like that? LaSalle and his traveling partner Detante would be the first year of to call the river the Mississippi, which is a transliteration of a Chippewa word Michasippe, or great water. Often it's referred to as the father of waters. You'll hear that a lot. An alternate story, though, arose from a chief of the Chalk Talls, a man named Peter Pitchlan, who wrote a letter about returning to the land beyond the micha Subkui, which meant the river beyond any age. He wrote in his letter that white man never writes Indian names correctly, but the word which we pronounce, Mishasippe, is spelt nearer your own river. He wrote that in a letter and said that that name meant the river beyond any age. Pichland was a legit dude, and I think he was dropping some knowledge. Whatever it means, the Mississippi River has been the name of this river for a very short period of its existence, and who knows, it likely won't always be called that. Our society could be forgotten, lost, misrepresented, just as easy as his was. If you remember ts Eliott's poem, the river is patiently waiting and watching to human trapped in time. Everything always seems so permanent, but it's not natural. Systems outlast humans, and rivers don't perceive time or think like men. No river has ever played a greater role in a country than the Mississippi River in America. It cuts through the heart of this country like a jugular vein. Here's John Berry. 00:30:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was always interested in the Mississippi River. You know, when people ask me where I ever got the idea to write that book, I always say, well, I grew up in Rhode Island, so it's perfectly natural for me to want to write about the Mississippi River. And as you just did, they almost always chuckle. But the reality is it's true if you carry it at all about American history. The Mississippi River is so central every element of American history. It has to interest you, if not fascinated you. And growing up in Rhode Island, you know, grew up in Providence with my grandfather, you know, was in Newport on the ocean there every summer. Nonetheless, it was always the Mississippi River. I love the Atlantic Ocean too, But the Mississippi River I just always wanted to write about. 00:31:32 Speaker 2: And it was a massive It was a very formidable had a very formidable presence in the American frontier, in American expansion. 00:31:41 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean it was you know, at the beginning, it was everything. It was a combination of you know, rail boats, airplanes, you know, fiber optics, you know, telegraph, telephone. All that was the Mississippi River and its tribute to it's the entire system was key to all transportation and communication across much of the country until the development of the telegraphic. 00:32:13 Speaker 2: His point is that the river was the lifeblood of communication and transportation on this continent before modern technology. It acted in place of the coming railroads, airplanes, fiber optics, and telephone. It was key to America becoming America. 00:32:29 Speaker 4: Here's Hank the thing to me about the essence are of the Mississippi River. It's not only the third largest river in the world, if we had included the Missouri and the Missippi, it'd be the biggest fe in the world. More than likely. It splits right down the middle of this northern hemisphere. People say, well, we got free coasts of America we got full coasts. You got the West Coast, you got the Gulf Coast, you got the Atlantic Coast, and you got the Missisippi River on and right. 00:33:00 Speaker 3: Up the middle of America. That's the fourth coast. 00:33:04 Speaker 4: Look at the goods and produce the products, the sand of the gravel, the timber, everything, the petroleum products that flow up and down at Mississippi Room. It is a not only a force to be reckoned with because of its wildness, but its economic value. It's unbelievable to what America is and what it does for America. 00:33:29 Speaker 2: The Mississippi River was undoubtedly a cornerstone in the building of the American Empire. And I really like the idea of the Mississippi being the fourth coast. The river has more sand beaches than the Gulf Coast. Here's doctor Bedenhearn. 00:33:46 Speaker 5: The amount of cargo and fuel and supplies that are transported every day on the river. 00:33:52 Speaker 3: But it's it's huge. 00:33:54 Speaker 5: And we've got the ports that you know, New Orleans, Baton Rouge and some of the biggest ports in the world world and you know, the United States. I'm not gonna say we're lucky, but we've got this major river system that goes right up through a bread basket, you know of farmland. You know, not all countries have that. They may have big rivers, but they maybe flow through the Amazon. There's no real you know, agriculture there. But we've kind of got a combination of a big river that we can navigate. Of course we have, we had a lot of work to get that to be the dependable navigation system we wanted. But it also navigates right up through the heartland of of you know, the bread basket of America. 00:34:40 Speaker 2: Transportation is key to empire building and this river being situated in the middle is more than significant. Think about all the crop land from Minnesota to Louisiana. This is big and it's not just any cropland the Mississippi Delta is considered some of the most fertile land in the world. 00:34:59 Speaker 4: Most areas in the country topsail is six eight inches deep. Our average topsail is about one hundred and sixty to one hundred and eighty feet deep. Here it has been called some of the richest soil in the world compared to the river. Now and there's an old saying that the Lord will won Deer Creek about six miles east of here that the Lord could have made better dirt, but he figured he just didn't need to. 00:35:26 Speaker 2: Deer Creek is a tributary of the Mississippi with some of the Delta's finest soil. It's hard to get a definitive answer for how deep the soil is in the Delta because its depth varies and top soil is a colloquial term, but it's also a scientific term. But the truth is that it's just extremely deep. In places it's alluvial soil, meaning it was deposited there by a flooding river. This is important. We did a podcast on soil formation on Bear Grease episode twenty called From the Earth. Soil building is one of the Earth's most fascinating processes, takes an incredible amount of time, can be squandered in a generation of mismanagement, and has caused the rise and fall of empires. You may not touch much soil or daily perceive its connection to your life, but it is the foundation of your physical body. Everything comes from the soil, and you will go back to it. In terms of where we're at in our story Lut's level, we're establishing a baseline of understanding the natural features of the river in man's early connection to it. We have to view the river as a complex, ancient system that will outlive you and your offspring should the earth persist, and not just a narrow body of muddy water. You cross on a bridge and honk your horn because you've passed into a new state. Let's keep heading down river. Here's John Berry the Mississippi River in general, describing it. It's two hundred feet deep and a mile wide inside the bigger sections, and it drops the slope of three inches per mile, flows through some of the flattest land in the world. Generally flows about nine miles per hour, and the last four hundred and fifty miles of the Mississippi River is below sea level. Can you help me understand how that's possible. 00:37:20 Speaker 1: Well, those stats are accurate, but they're a little bit selected. For example, obviously the river's not two hundred feet deep the whole, yeah, you know, but some of the deepest sections, which are you know, right in Orleans, are probably two forty practically right at the French quarter. It's called the Crescent City because it's sharp turns here and when you get a high water the river on the outer bank, you know, just like on a racetrack, it's actually higher than the water on the other bank, maybe a foot higher in terms of the bottom of the river being below sea level for several hundred miles. 00:37:58 Speaker 2: Okay, at the bottom of the room being level. 00:38:01 Speaker 1: What you have is the force of all the water draining from thirty one states pushing against the sea coming up. 00:38:09 Speaker 2: So there's a force behind it. Yeah, it's not gravity pulling it down. 00:38:13 Speaker 1: Well, it's yeah, Well, I mean you're right, because well, you know, water flows downhill and if it warn't, you know, you got something other factor that is that is affecting it, that's forcing it. And it's it's not uphill, it's still going downhill. But you know, right now record low water and a lot of the river the ocean is pushing salt water up river. 00:38:37 Speaker 2: It's always been like that. It's it's kind of a silly question. When when I was a kid, I remember there's a big mountain within side of the town we lived in in Arkansas, and I asked my dad one time, I said, was that mountain here when you were a kid? So this is question is kind of like that is the bottom of the river always been below sea level? 00:38:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. 00:38:58 Speaker 2: Okay, dumb questions get dumb answers. It's pretty hard to wrap your head around the last four hundred and fifty miles of the river being below sea level. I thought maybe this had to do with man's imprint on the river. I guess not. We're still learning about the physical attributes of the river. But the river is very different in different sections. Here's doctor Jack Kilgore describing the sections of the Mississippi River. 00:39:25 Speaker 6: Well, first of all, this layout the Lower Mess. There's really five or six different reaches of the lower Mississippi River. A lot of people think, oh, it's just the Lower Mess. Well no, so from New Orleans down the last one hundred miles that's where, of course it runs into the Gulf of Mexico. But you have a combination of fresh water and escherine fish, and the river just pours into all these estuaries and that's what sustains the lifeblood of Louisiana and Mississippi coastal wetlands. Then when you get above New Orleans, from New Orleans to Baton Rouge, you don't really have a floodplain and it's highly industrialized, and it's also within the deep water navigation channel. And when I say deep water from Baton Rouge down to the Gulf, it's forty It has to be forty five feet in order for the sea going ships to traverse up and down the river. Above Baton Rouge, the minimum is twelve feet. And that's of course all you have are the barges, which have a much shallower draft. 00:40:35 Speaker 2: So from the mouth of the river to one hundred miles inland it's heavily influenced by the saltwater of the Gulf. The first section from the Gulf to New Orleans is a wide web of brackish wetlands. New Orleans sits about forty or fifty miles inland from the Gulf proper. The second section from New Orleans to Baton Rouge is a highly industrialized, narrow section of the river with no floodplain, lots of big boats. 00:41:03 Speaker 6: But then above Baton Rouge, from Baton Rouge to Natchez really all the way up to Memphis. Between Memphis and Baton Rouge, the core cut off fourteen meander bins back in the nineteen twenties and thirties, and to shorten the river in the name of flood control, thinking that that by straightening the river, the flood pulses would evacuate the valley quicker than a meandering river. Well that worked, I mean it dropped the stages, but the river is still adjusting from man made cutoffs seventy five years ago. 00:41:40 Speaker 2: Haink talked about those cutoffs earlier in the podcast. Baton Rouge to Memphis has that classic big wide, wild Mississippi River delta field. It has an intact floodplain, I meaning the river is allowed to have its natural flood patterns, and usually the levees sit a long ways off the main river the mountains. I was an adult before I learned what a levee was. It was hard for me to wrap my mind around it until I was standing there and understood it. But it's basically a dam of dirt that runs along the river, protecting the surrounding areas from floods. In a minute, we're going to learn more about levees. But here's doctor Kilgore. 00:42:17 Speaker 6: And then once you get though above Memphis, you get out of the cutoffs and you get into a lot of gravel. 00:42:24 Speaker 2: Bars north of Memphis. 00:42:26 Speaker 6: North of Memphis all the way up to the Ohio Okay, So it's kind of a lot of secondary channel. There's about one hundred second I'll talk about that in a minute. But from there up to the Ohio, you get a lot of gravel bars, but you still have an intact floodplane. So the levees are still a place. 00:42:43 Speaker 2: Further back from Memphis to kro Illinois, where the Ohio comes in, there are more gravel bars, but there's still an intact floodplain. Let's keep going. 00:42:54 Speaker 6: And then once you get in above the Ohio, between the Ohio and Saint Lewis is what we call the Middle Miss. The river narrows. There's no floodplain, it's very high velocity, and there's just a lot of dikes. So what they do is they'll put these dikes in there to create this self scouring channel so the core doesn't have to dredge. So the Middle Miss really doesn't have It's kind of like the Lower Miss, but it didn't have a floodplain. And then, of course, once you get above Saint Louis and Alton, you have the twenty seven locking dams. 00:43:28 Speaker 2: From Kroad to Saint Louis is the middle Mississippi, and that Saint Louis is the first dam of the river, which totally changes it. So there you go. Now you have a general understanding of the Middle and Lower Mississippi, but it would be helpful to officially learn what some of the man made features of the river are. I'm serious, I was a grown man before I knew what a levee was. We've got to understand levees. 00:43:52 Speaker 6: And the levees, of course, are giant earthern mounds on each side of the river. But fortunately when they realign the le they put them far enough back to allow the river to have a floodplain. 00:44:05 Speaker 2: Still, okay, so it can get over its banks. 00:44:08 Speaker 6: Yes, from levee to levee it can be up to fourteen miles wide. So there is a two million acre floodplain that this river is associated with, and that is one of the natural features of the Lower miss Unlike most other great rivers of the world except for the Amazon. 00:44:28 Speaker 2: Levees are the magic, the bread and butter, the flashy mule, and the pasture of the Mississippi River. They make the region outside of the levee habitable. The land between the levee and river is subject to seasonal flooding, meaning you can't farm or build cities inside the levee. However, there are a lot of hunting camps inside the levee, usually built on stilts or built in some way that expects flooding. See if you recognize this Mississippi voice, you know, other than my voice, because I talk some here too. Here's more on levees. You know, what's interesting to think about in terms of the way humans have manipulated the earth so that we can live in places that we maybe wouldn't have been able to. Like you think of the Middle East. There's there are places in the Middle East that are basically would be uninhabitable by humans because of lack of water, but now we have ways to get water there. The Mississippi River delta would have seasonally flooded to the point that it would have been very hard to live here year round, grow crops. 00:45:33 Speaker 3: Yeah, or without the levees. 00:45:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So that's Wilber Primos. Yeah, I mean we've got civilization just right outside the levees that for the last eon of time has flooded. That's right, And that's so interesting. I mean, we just take so much for granted. And when you understand the levee system and how you know, only the last one hundred and seventy years, I guess we've had these levees and it's just you couldn't even live down here. 00:45:59 Speaker 7: No, no, you could not, you know, not not in the fall and winter for sure. 00:46:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:46:04 Speaker 7: When you ride down the Mississippi Levee and you look down to the typically on the outside of the levee, not the river side, but the other side, you'll see a little lake as a hole, and the name of that hole is typically a bar pit. That is slang for borrow pit b O r r o w borrow pit. They borrowed the dirt and dug a hole and put it to make the levee, so that becomes a bar pit. 00:46:32 Speaker 2: So there's a big ditch and then there's a big pile of dirt. 00:46:35 Speaker 7: And bar pits can be great fishing holes. They leased the levee to a lot of cattle farmers because it's grass that yeah, you know, and they lease it for hay, so you're they're cutting it, cut it, yeah, because you got to keep trees off of the trees would be bad for the levee because the roots or whatever are creating avenues for water and other problems, So it's a huge project. 00:46:58 Speaker 2: The Mississippi River heavy system is one of the greatest engineering feats in American history. If a man or woman were to claim to understand the story of this nation but don't understand the history of the Mississippi River levies, they'd be like a wayward coon hound slick trend barking up a tree with no coon. This story is big. Here's me and John Berry. This is the kind of stuff that I would have taken for granted in terms of understanding how this nation was built and how central the Mississippi River was. But when people first started wanting to control the river, it was you said in the book that it was more dangerous to go down the Mississippi River than it was to cross the ocean. Yeah, I mean it. It was this like wild, untouched American river, right, And then at what point did man come in and start to want to influence that and tame that. 00:47:56 Speaker 1: Well, the Native Americans tended to live with the real They built mounds, so you know, in the delta and so forth, so when it flooded they would remained okay. But obviously I guess they started building levees in New Orleans really almost immediately after it was settled, so that's three hundred years ago. And of course, before the Civil War, there was a pretty complete levee system on a lot of the lower Mississippi River, but the levees weren't very high. They got really really they thought they had a pretty good levee system. By the early nineteen hundreds, they discovered that was not the case. After the nineteen twenty seven flood, which was a you know, tremendous flood in terms of percentage of gross domestic product impact, it had more impact than any other event in American history. 00:48:56 Speaker 2: Really, any other natural disaster in American history. 00:48:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, considerably more than Katrina, you know, several times more than Hurricane Sandy. Right, it was enormous. Plus at displaced, it flooded almost one percent of the entire population of the country. So after that flood, which killed people from Virginia to Oklahoma, but really devastated Mississippi, Arkansas, and Louisiana, you know, they built a very good levee system and some other measures to contain the river, and on the lower Mississippi there hasn't been a flood since. 00:49:37 Speaker 2: I like what you said, in the book that the nineteenth century was the perfect century for a man to try to conquer something like the Mississippi River. You said it took hubris. 00:49:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the century of the engineer, you know. 00:49:52 Speaker 2: In eighteen hundreds. 00:49:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then in the nineteen hundreds you start getting plenty of hubris. Still little more recognition, you know, of relativity and you know, quantum physics and things like that. Uncertainty principles and you know, all sorts of things that scientists and engineers recognized made things more complicated. But in the nineteenth century things looked a lot more linear and you know, simpler. Frankly, they thought they could control the river. They couldn't, you know, we sill can. 00:50:30 Speaker 2: The nineteen twenty seven flood was major and it changed America. Native Americans built mounds to escape floods, and the French built the first primitive levees in the early seventeen hundreds in New Orleans, and from then on, primitive hand built levees were along the river, often built by slaves. In eighteen forty four, crude and small levees less than ten feet high, a lot of them like five feet high, went from New Orleans up to the mouth of the Arkansas River. By eighteen fifty eight, small levees reached intermittently all the way to kro Illinois, but it wasn't until after the Civil War. In eighteen seventy nine, the Mississippi River Levee Commission was formed, giving levee building and control to the federal government. This is big today. The levees starting near Cape Girardo, Missouri and end of the Gulf of Mexico and include over thirty seven hundred miles of levee. Today most of them are thirty feet tall. But let's get back to our story. So inside the levees, the river side, the flood prone side, the river meanders and follows its natural pattern of flooding. Here's will Primos. 00:51:41 Speaker 7: To pound it into you to understand. There is a place south of Vicksburg called Windsor Ruins. It was a plantation home at today's time. I have no how many how many tens of millions the home would have cost, but a lot of the the stuff was shipped in by boat from France and up the river and built from the home. I understand. 00:52:07 Speaker 3: All that's left from Windsor. 00:52:09 Speaker 7: Ruins is the columns is the I guess they're granite. You could go and see them. They're beautiful columns that are tall. They're in the middle of the woods. From that location, which is near the town I believe it's Bruinsburg, Mississippi, you could see the Mississippi River. You can no longer see the Mississippi River from there because the river changed courses. That's why I may be on the Louisiana side of the river, but I'm actually standing on Mississippi soil, because when the boundaries were drawn, that was Mississippi land. But the river changed courses, so the river doesn't necessarily split Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi perfectly. There is Arkansas land that is on the Mississippi right side of the river. Because the river changed courses. 00:53:02 Speaker 2: The river creates the boundary line between many states Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and Tennessee, Arkansas and Mississippi, Mississippi and Louisiana. Go look at your on X and you'll see the jumble of islands, oxbow lakes, and cut off meander bins along the river, especially the lower Mississippi from Memphis to Baton Rouge, and you'll see an incredible amount of these states that are now on the other side of the river from their state. We're still learning the man made structures of the river. Let's talk about dikes or jetties. Here's doctor Kilgore with double l's. 00:53:40 Speaker 6: So they are about eight hundred dikes along the lower Mississippi River and they're a stone structure that can extend two thousand feet perpendicular to the shore. And their purpose is to create and maintain a self scouring channel. So as the water is coming from upstream to downstream, they'll hit these dikes. The dikes then funnel the water out towards the main channel and you get higher velocities, which then scours the main channel and keeps it free of sediment. And so the whole purpose of the dikes is to minimize dredging. 00:54:18 Speaker 2: Okay, so if you didn't have dikes, you might have a wide, shallow channel exactly. 00:54:25 Speaker 6: In fact, pre European the Mississippi River was a lot more braided than it is today. It's more now it's really just a sinuous, snaky kind of river, and it's called meander belts. And those meander belts have switched back and forth over the last two or three thousand years they've been mapped, creating this one hundred mile wide valley down here. 00:54:47 Speaker 2: So you would say from the dead center of the Mississippi River, fifty miles on either side would have been fair game to be flooded free Europea. 00:54:57 Speaker 6: During the nineteen twenty seven flood, you could take a boat from Vicksburg, Mississippi, to Monroe, Louisiana, seventy miles because the levees had broken. 00:55:06 Speaker 2: The actual natural floodplain of the river before levees wouldn't have been as clearcut as fifty miles on either side of the river. Sometimes it was more, sometimes it was less, but the idea of a one hundred mile wide floodplain is legit. In summary, we've been learning about the energy of rivers and their hydraulic complexity and their drive to carry sediment. We've learned about levees and dykes or jetties and cutoffs, and we got a sense of the sheer size of this river. We've learned some about the early human history of the river and its importance to America. Here's Hank Burdine. Lake Ferguson is an oxbow lake of the Mississippi. 00:55:48 Speaker 3: Growing up on Lake Ferguson, Dad had a boat. We'd go out on the lake. Didn't go out on the river much. He did. 00:55:57 Speaker 4: We did, miss kids, and once I got up to where I had my own boat, it was always to you. You didn't go out on the river because that river was a bad bogart hunah, and there was a inherent I'm not going to say fear. You were taught to stay in the lake, stay in slack water because the big river had currents. You had eighties, you had whirlpools, you had upsurges, you had dropped down where rivers dropped down two three feet and come back up. Because of the nature of the river, it is a dangerous system out there. 00:56:35 Speaker 3: You got to be real careful. 00:56:37 Speaker 4: Yet, as we grew up and began to nudge ot in there, we learned. 00:56:43 Speaker 3: Respect for the river. You learned what to look for. 00:56:46 Speaker 4: You learned the intricacies of what the river is and what it does, how it does it, and why it does it. I don't say fear the river, never feel the river. Respect the river, and respect the river for what it is and what. 00:57:04 Speaker 3: It can do. 00:57:06 Speaker 4: The river is such a dynamic system in itself. To me, the Mississippi River is one of our last wilderness areas. 00:57:17 Speaker 3: We have, and I love what stay that way. 00:57:21 Speaker 4: You know, we're getting a lot of cruise boats up in there now, coming up from all over every where, paddlewheel boats, tourists, hear all about it. We want to see it, want to get on it. But uh, I like to hit that river when you don't see anybody for three hours other than towboat every nine there, you know that's the river. 00:57:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an interesting thought to think about a river as wilderness. I like it, I mean, and I think it's real because it's it's a system. Even though it's been manipulated by man, the system is still very natural and is it's a wild place. 00:57:57 Speaker 4: It is, especially what we call the lower from Kroe down where you've got floodwater areas, where we've got levees, other areas and on other rivers. 00:58:07 Speaker 3: You've got towns. 00:58:08 Speaker 4: Here, you've got little parks here, you got all there somewhat tame rivers here. 00:58:13 Speaker 3: You've got a wildly wool of river. 00:58:15 Speaker 4: A good part of it down here is protected by levees within the what we call the batcher between the levees. The land between the levees that flood. You can't build a house, and unless you build it fifteen sixteen twenty feet up off the ground. 00:58:40 Speaker 2: What I didn't understand until I went on the river myself is that from Memphis to Vicksburg there are very few towns that actually touch the Mississippi River. It floods and you can't build inside the levees. So if you're traveling down the river you see Sits not much different than Mark Twain did, and it's a bit of a stretch, but not as much as you'd think. It probably looks close to what Hernando DeSoto saw, a wild, wooly river, a wilderness. We've got an incredible cast of storytellers guiding us into an understanding of this mighty river. If we just heard from people from one discipline, our view would be narrow. But we've had people looking at the river from many different angles and disciplines. My whole life, I've wanted to understand this river, and I knew that I didn't. This series is my personal journey to understand it. On this episode, we laid a foundation, but we're just getting started. In the next episode, we'll talk about the men who tame this river, the engineers, and the ones who told America about its soul, the writers. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease. Please share our podcast with a friend and leave us a review on iTunes. I look forward to talking all the folks on The Bearer Is Render next week.