00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number two hundred and eighteen, and today the show, Dan, myself and our buddy Andy may are tackling listenersmitted questions on topics such as target, panic, analyzing, dear data, sent control, and advanced wind strategies. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. And today it's gonna be a fun episode. It's it's kind of a BS session slash Q and a session with the nine Fingered Wonder Dan Johnson and also our buddy Andy may Ore d I Y white Tail Extraordinaire. And um, we're to cover all sorts of stuff. Um We've got questions related to you know, how to plan d I Y trips, to what kind of harnesses are good to use to send control, questions to um everything about deal it's harder, panic, Just a whole slew of wide and vary questions. But um, before we get to the questions, I want to first offer a correction of sorts and then I want to dive into what's new with you Dan and you Andy? UM. But first correction or sort of an addition to the conversation we had in last week's episode. So if you haven't heard episode two seventeen, we had this episode with the folks over from Modern Huntsmen, and the conversation was all about UM their perspectives on how we might want to think about adjusting the way we communicate about hunting so that it's it's UM easy to bring new hunters into the fold, so that we're doing a slightly better job of improving kind of the the perception of hunting to the outside world. So there's a whole bunch of different ideas and UM perspectives and thoughts shared on ways to do that. UH. And I think it's a really important conversation, and I think it's an important thing. But there's one thing that I'm not sure I did a good enough job of mentioning, and it's this, And I just want to make sure we say this that as much as we need to be careful and considered about how we present hunting and how we communicate about hunting, UM, as much as that is important, at the same time, it's my opinion that We don't need to apologize for hunting. We shouldn't need to feel like we need to hide what hunting is or that we need to not be proud of it. We should be proud of who we are. We should be proud hunters. We can do that, though, I think in a way that achieves both things. We can be a proud hunter and also be positive representatives of hunting. I think there's a happy medium in there where we don't need to sugarcoat what we're doing, but at the same time, we don't need to present something that's appalling to the rest of the world either. UM So that's just one thing I want to make sure that's out there in the world, is that there's a way that we can be true to ourselves and be positive representatives. UM no need to pretend that we're not doing what we're doing. So that's my small, tiny update from last week's episode. Dan Johnson, I guess before anything else, do you agree with that? R? Wow? All right, Dan's excited. I'm fired out, fired out? Okay, what do you fired at? Yeah? I agree with it, and kind of I am fired up about life. You had a great trip, right right, right, had a great trip, um, and it's kind of funny you mentioned this, um, you know, not apologizing were being a hunter. My trip was out to California, where everybody, you know, very liberal state so to speak, especially the area that I was around, and hunting came up in conversation, um, because I, you know, I would wear maybe a hunting T shirt or what do you do in you know, what do you do? And then my wife mentioned that, you know, I have a hunting podcast and all this stuff, and it was really really cool to be able to say, you know, I'm a bow hunter. And by the way, people think that all hunting is done with guns out there. Every person I talked to and then I mentioned that I only you know, hunted deer with archery equipment, and their mind, the people that I talked to that someone was doing something so primitive still these days, and they had this, you know, this vision that all hunters were gun hunters, and it was it was awesome to kind of walk them through what I did, how I did it, you know, walk them through you know, hey, I don't I don't just hunt for the antlers. I used the meat too, And that was another misconception that they had that they they felt that they people only hunted with guns and that they only hunted for like animals with large horns or antlers. So people were pretty open to like that conversation though, like they're curious. It wasn't like they shut you out as soon as they found out you were a hunter. Um No, not really. The people that I talked to were intrigued first of all, and then as I kind of you know, you could tell that they maybe had run into someone before, had an interaction with a hunter before that probably did not do a good job. But I made it a point to get my entire um, i guess spiel out there, so you know, so I didn't compare myself to the stereotype that they had probably been introduced to first of all, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome that I always I love those opportunities when you get to have talk to someone who is intrigued, you know, and and and offer the context you know. So often, like you said, there's a stereotype and people never never get a chance to go deeper into what it is we do. So when you do get that chance, I get pretty excited about that. Yeah, And it was it was one of the first times. It's like three times that trip where I had to break it down for people and you know, talk to them. They're like, oh, it doesn't dear meat taste bad. And I'm like, it tastes bad if you haven't cooked it right, you know, because we were up in wine country and we were doing you know, the conversation was always about what kind of food do you pair with this wine or what kind of wine do you pair with this food? So I asked, you know, like, we eat a lot of venison in my house, and they're like venison. I'm like, yeah, dear meat. And they're like, you eat deer and I'm like, yeah, I'm a I'm a hunter or whatever. I go out and I harvest animals and I you know, clean them up, and I feed my family with them. And there they were intrigued by that. But then they got excited because I was able to introduce something that I liked, which was hunting and eating dear meat, to something that they liked to do, and that was pair wines with specific food. So it took this guy off in a new, completely new direction. He's like, venison, Okay, that's a you know, that's somewhat of a lean dark meat. So yeah, you can do this or this or this, and so like we we shared excitement. So that was kind of that was kind of cool. So are you are now mm hmm No, not even close, my man. Uh, but but I did, dude, I did taste a lot of wines. We did go to a lot of vineyards. It was a unique experience. You know, that trip was pretty much brownie points for my wife. Uh. But it was a unique experience because and as you know, Mark, you used to live out in that area north of San Francisco is absolutely gorgeous country. I mean rolling, rolling hills, um big valleys. And then the last day of the trip, we went to the Pacific. Um. We've made one stop at a redwood forest, um Armstrong Woods, and it just you know, the history in that area, the you know, we we sat underneath of a tree that was hundred years old and our yeah, years old and ft tall. You don't get trees that, you know like that in Iowa. And then we made it to the coast and took Highway one all the way back down to San Francisco and stopped at Point Reyes National Seashore. Dude, like like a picture. I mean, it's like a painting. It's just unbelievably beautiful. Yeah, you have, you had some great pictures. It seemed like you had a great time down there. But it did it did seem like um and Andy. I'm not sure if you saw this online, but it seemed like Dan's most favorite part of the entire trip. He's not mentioning here publicly. I'm not sure why he's not mentioning this, But I saw that you became a you became a professional segue racer. I don't care where you go. Let's say you go. Let's say the next time we're in Uh, where's the a t a show this year? Mark Louisville. If they have a Louisville segue tour, you best believe I'm gonna be on it, because dude, I looked like a nerd wear and a yellow vest and a helmet. But writing a segue is really fun. And I'll tell you what else is really fun. Looking at the pictures of you writing a segue, I laughed and laughed and I posted that series of pictures of you on my Instagram story and we had so many people messaged me just cracking up. So you brought a lot of joy to people's lives this weekend. Dan, That's what I'm here for. That's what I'm here for. I got a question for you. Yeah, did you uh? Did you happen to see anyone holder us out there? You know? I did, not a lot, because I don't know if you know this, but there in October there was a absolutely huge gigantic fire that wiped out thousands of houses and thousands upon thousands of acres of uh, I guess land, and I saw man, I saw a lot or I saw about four black tailed deer. I don't know if one of them was a mule deer. I'm assuming it was like a black tailed deer. Everybody calls them coastal deer out there. But all those Now, the the guy who, let's see, we stayed out of airbnb, uh the last two nights. And the guy goes this morning, when I was taking my trash out, there were five there were five bucks standing in his yard and then they when he went to go take his trash out, they ran into a vineyard. And um, but that would have been cool to see. I didn't see him. Um. And the guy there there is a hunting presence there because people do not like the deer eating all their profits, so they they allow hunters to come into the vineyards and harvest the animals. So that's that's pretty cool as well. Yeah, I know that area out there is very pretty, Like you mentioned, I spent a little bit of time out there just after college, and uh, I always I wish at the time I was work there, you know, my old day job south of San Francisco during the fall, and so I was missing out on hunting season in the Midwest. I wish that I had tried to figure out how to pull off a hunt out there, just I don't know what I would have done. Found some public land and tried it, but I guess I was so caught up in the job and everything I didn't But that's one of my regrets. You know, I was out in this very different, interesting place. I should have tried to take advantage of that. But if I could do it again, I would have explored that region up by where you were at, because it seems like there are some opportunities there. But that's cool. I'm glad you had a good trip. Glad she's got some brownie points. Um do you have you been able to quantify exactly how many days of hunting this is gonna equal? Is this equal to two weeks of rout hunts or or what did you achieve? This is equal? This is equal to let me think this is equal to one dear trip or one elk trip out to Colorado in September and potentially a mule your hunt to South Dakota in December. Man, well, this is a wonderful investment. Yeah. I don't know about that. I don't I don't know if the the r o I is gonna be uh worth it. But she was happy, and you know, you know they're saying, when when mom is happy, everybody else can be happy. So yeah, man, that's good stuff. I'm glad it. I'm glad it went well. Uh Andy, I saw that this past week and you were up to some fun stuff too at the Total Archery Challenge up in Northern Michigan. How was that? That was great? Have you guys ever done it? No? I haven't, No, No, Yeah, it's pretty incredible. Um. I went for the first time last year, and uh, you know, I've heard about it and see seen some like YouTube videos and stuff, and it looked like a lot of fun. And um, I went last year with a buddy and uh it was just it was the most fun I ever had shooting my bow, just because you know, they incorporate they tried to mimic the out West experience. So you know, they you right up the ski lift, um, you know, to the top of the mountain, and you kind of shoot your way down, kind of hike in between, um, you know, each each shot. So like we shot all day, fray, I'm sorry, all day Saturday, and then half a day Sunday. But we put on seventeen miles. So that was that was in three course. Uh, targets per course. So it's it's cool because they incorporate, you know, the physical challenge of you know, hiking around a lot of guys a pack and some guys even put a little weight in the back just to kind of you get that full experience of of you know, an out West hunt. Um, it's a ton of fun. They got some really tricky shots. It's a lot of long range stuff, so you know, um, a lot of guys kind of trained for it and uh, you know practice their long range accuracy because there's there's some you know, several targets over a hundred yards. Um, you don't have to shoot at that distance. There's no rule, you don't have to keep scores. It's really a fun shoot. There's no winner and a loser. So if if you walk up to a hundred yard target and you know you don't feel comfortable, you can walk up to sixty yards. You can walk up to forty yards and shoot it and have fun. Um and you know, go to the next one. So it's it's a great time. We met a ton of people and everybody is just you know, everybody's like you guys, just cool, fun to talk to. You talk a lot of honey in a lot art three and just really, I don't I don't know that I'll ever miss it unless something, you know, with the family comes up. I'll probably go every year. Wow. Yeah, it looks like it looks like a good time, and you've heard just everyone I talked to about it. Also is the same thing, whether it's the one here in Michigan or I know a lot of guys go out to one in Montana. That seems like a great event. Um Man, I saw you, I saw you making a hundred and twenties six yards shot Andy, that's impressive. Yeah, yeah, well I I should almost every day, so uh, you know, I just it. I think it's it sounds a little more intimidating than it is. Um. You know, if you gotta a good tune set up, and you know you gotta you obviously gotta have some decent form and shoot quite a bit. But you know, these days, they have some sites that you know, you can kind of dial in, uh you know to extreme yardages, and I think what what freaks a lot of people out is, you know, it's something that distance. What happens is that your pin float looks huge, right, so it looks like your pins dancing all over the target. But if you can kind of ignore that and let that go and just run through your shot sequence, you know, you'll be all right. Use your southing done. Though. I bet I don't have enough. I don't have enough arrows to participate in the Total Archery Challenge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's a it's funny, there's a bucket there that's uh, you know, all the broken arrows. You know that, Um, you know that people pick up throughout the course and it's just chuck full of them. And I don't know. I put a YouTube video on my Facebook page, but there's a on this one target you're shooting. It was like ninety six yards and you're you gotta thread it between two trees that are i don't know, maybe twenty inches apart at a dough or I think it was a buck target. Um. But the tree on the right had about sixty arrow inserts. The tree looked like it was about to tip over. It was so funny. But yeah, it's it's a good time. You go. They're kind of expecting, you know, you know, to lose a few arrows. I had some buddies that went for the first time and they most of these guys had never shot over you know, probably fifty sixty yards, but they practiced, you know, and they got a site, an adjustable site where they could kind of dial into those longer yards is and they did They did good. They did a good job. It was fun nice. So that that sounds like an awesome time, Andy, um So, so I want to jump in now and give you guys two pieces of news from me. Um. I've got one piece of good news and I've got one piece of bad news. Which do you want to hear? First bad bad Okay, the bad news is that me and further lost our ohio lease, Oh man, did they find out? Did they find out that you merged with Ronella? And they they said, hey man, this guy's got some money. He has to have some money. Uh, let's charge up more. And then you're like, screw that. I'm not gonna pay that ridiculous. You know, that's an interesting uh scenario, you paint their dam. But no, that's not what happened. Um. Unfortunately, the situation is that um, the landowners, um, I have got to an age where they cannot live there anymore, and their children are selling the property. So yeah, been there many Yeah, it's a major bumber. Had a lot of really good memories out there, a lot of great hunting trips over the last oh gosh, I don't know, six seven years now. So but how how bummed are you actually, because it sounds to me like the last couple of years, although that that leash produced some big deer in the past, like, it sounds to me like it was trending downhill. Anyway, It was trending downhill, yes, but still like compared to anything I had in Michigan, it was still the best chance I have to see or kill a mature buck, you know, even though it's a small limited property. Um pressure increasing. But but nowhere else do I hunt where I was seeing those kinds of deer. Um. So I'm just now now it's just like square one. The one thing is at least I had that in my back pocket, you know. Now it's what am I going to do for ohile? So that'll be a fun new challenge to figure out over the next couple of months. I guess nothing like summer timing for that. I guess it could be worse. So that's the bad news. I'm sure we'll have more to share in that in future episodes. Is I kind of figure out what my other options are? Um? Good news though, well, we'll focus on the good I think I saw holy Field last night. What yep, Um, are you laughing over the da Yes, you know, here's what's gonna happen. Um, you're gonna You're probably gonna if I know you at all, you're probably gonna change your mind, you know, and you might dedicate another season to this buck. Um. I just recommend like practicing hundred yard shots from a tree stand. That way you can at least give yourself an opportunity at him this year. Yeah, I I sense holy Field fatigue from you, Dan, which, dude, it's cool. I've been through the I've been through the same thing. But um, it's just one of these things I think for me, you know, I followed these books for a long time, like or for sets of Deer or whatever, for a long periods of time, and it's the moment that you least expect it is the moment it will happen. It's almost like you forget about it and then all of a sudden, that is the day that holy Field will show up in a shooting line. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, we talked a little bit about it a month or two ago. But just how, And I won't belabor the point too much now, but just how. My strategy this year is probably gonna be too, not be so singlemindedly focused on them. Like I've got a lot of things I'm gonna be doing here in the off season, trying to make sure I'm prepared, but I'm not gonna obsess over it too much. And you know, if there's other opportunit and he's the other deer, I'll probably take that too, So him. Well, I don't know on but um, I was able to watch these big batchelor group of bucks in a bean field a couple hundred yards away with a spotting scope and it was right at last light. So I can't say for sure, but based off the brow times and the main beams spread and everything so far, it looks like the brow times and everything match what he looks like. Um. And I thought, you know, one time, I thought when his ear was like kind of backlit by the sky, I thought I could see a chunk missing from the ear. Um. So I'm not a percent sure, but it looks like as close of a match as you could possibly get at this point in the growth. So hopefully he'll be out there again. Whatever that buck was, Hopefully he'll be back again sometime soon, and maybe he'll be with more daylight and I can get a better look at him. But um, but encouraging that there's at least one mature buck closest property. So it wasn't on the proper deckon hunt. It was across the road from it, but but right there, and and that certainly could be where he's at. So that was good to see. That was awesome. Yeah, pretty cool, you got cameras out, you know, I actually don't. Um, I was you know, usually I get him out earlier in the year, but um, but this year I was thinking of just kind of holding off and getting him out probably right before I leave for Montana. So probably two weeks from now, I'll put him out and just having fresh batteries and writer rock and roll and let him soak for for a month a month and a half and check him in August. So that's my game plan. Good luck, buddy, Thank you. Sarah Mark. Do you have a um an out West white Tail Hunt playing this year again? Yeah, so I got I've got him Montana white Tail tag again. Um. So definitely gonna do that. Um and then small chance. I'm still decide on whether or not I'm going to do the North Dakota thing. Um I've got. I've scouted out some great spots this spring, so I feel like I'd love to get out there. It's just a matter of can I slip in the North Dakota trip everything else I've got going on without, you know, leaving my family responsibilities too much. So yeah, you found a bunch of sheds out in North Dakota too, right, Oh yeah, yeah, found some found some good looking sheds. So I'd love to hunt one of that deer that I found with the draft time. I'd love to I'd love to get after that buck. That'd be that'd be a unique opportunity. So cool, we'll see, very cool. But you could always you can always get a flat tire. I mean Montana or North Dakota is in between Montana and Michigan. It's true, so I could probably break down. So this is the phone the phone call I make to my wife is I'm so sorry hunting, but the cars broke down outside a piece of public land in North Dakota, and I'm gonna have it hunt here for a week. Yeah, that seems like that'll fly. Um, okay, so do you guys want to answer some some questions from the listeners. Let's do it all right. Um, Let's take a quick break then to thank our partners at White Tail Properties, and then we'll get to those questions. This week with white Tail Properties, we are joined by Brandon Schwartzlander, a land specialist out of Illinois, and Brandon is going to be telling us about the importance of getting the next generation involved with land management. You know, that's a great question. I think, Uh me personally, I think getting kids involved early, and maybe not just kids, but but anyone who hasn't experienced the outdoors or land. I mean, it's it's just such an awesome advance. I honestly gotta potench myself sometimes because I get to do this for a living. But you know when when I have girls and some of them hunt, some of them don't hunt, but just just being out we all shoot, we all shoot bowse um, and we all experienced the outdoors, we shed hunts, we do all those things together. I just think that you can take away so much or by spending time with whether it's your family or friends or whomever in in the woods or or you know, on a piece of land. It's it's it's so much better than than you know, having a phone stuck in your face or a laptop or whatever. I just think it gives us an opportunity to go back to to what we were raised on and and I think, you know, maybe maybe that's missing to some degree and in society today. But I just think when when you introduce things at an early age, I think I was probably five when I started um in the outdoors with my dad. But it makes you want to be better and it takes you away from, you know, things that that can be a negative influence. I just I feel like it's it's such a positive thing for especially with family. I mean, when you can can do those things with your kids and your wife or whatever. If you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Brandon currently has listed for sale, visit white tail properties dot com. Backslash Swartzlander that's s w A R t z l A n d e R. I want to start with a softball here, real quick, this is this is really a softball. We got a question from a guy named Jason on Instagram and he said he said that he's been that he actually just put purchased in Lone Wolf stands and sticks based off of what Dan and I have been saying about them the past, but he did not like the harness that came with it, so he was curious what types of safety harnesses do we use? What should we consider when purchasing a safety harness that kind of stuff. So quick gear question here, Dan, what's your safety harness? A choice? Well, I am using a lone Wolf. I've been using the lone Wolf h safety harness for a long time. But I've also in the past used those vests. So it's it's a like a vest you put on and all you do is have to buckle it one time right up front, easy and then you do your legs uh and you're done. And that's it's a really easy way to um to do that. I don't use it anymore because I felt like there's points or times where it would restrict some movement and I didn't like that, so that I went to a full harness and not the vest. So that's what I use. And when you say you're using the lone wolf uh harness, that's not it's not the freebie one that comes over a tree stande. No it's not. Yeah, you're right, clarify, Yeah, it is not the free one that comes with the tree stay and I have the the other one with the padded straps and all the all the all the goodies. Yeah, because because those ones that come with tree stands. While while I appreciate the fact they're giving you something, I don't know anyone who actually uses those or finds it to be a great option. I have a box in my garage that of every tree stand I've ever purchased or have received. I have a box of safety harnesses that come with those tree stands. Yeah yeah, what what do you using? Andy? Um? I actually use a rock climbing harness. Have you guys heard of anybody using those? I have heard of that I have. I've been intrigued by it. Tell us, tell us more. Um well, Uh, there's a buddy of mine. We actually when we when we all went down to Louisiana, it was one of the guys that met us at the bar um before that, long before that, Um, I had talked to him and he had started using a a rock climbing harness, And I like the idea. I just don't like having straps and you know, all an abundance of stuff like on my chest and shoulders, and um I never did really like that. So I like the idea of just wearing something around my waist. Um. So, he kind of had been doing it for a year or two, and I think he had some threads on archery talk and unning beasts and that sort of thing, and um so, uh, you know, he did some testing, like some fall testing, like turning upside down in the in the tree wearing one and um, you know kind of the theory that rock climbers use it. Um, you know, so they are safe. And I like the fact that, you know, you still tell her to the tree um like you would with your your regular you know, tree stand harness, except it comes around um, you know, your right side if you're if you're a right handed shooter, comes around your right side and clips on to a little ballet loop and then your your waist belt and it's it's just right there. It's out of the way. UM. I can have it really snug um so that there's no like, if I were to fall, there would be no um like there there would be actually no drop. It would catch me right away. I'd literally just swing to the side of the tree. Does that make sense, Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So I've been using that for a lot of years. When I sit in a tree stand, um, I do use a uh like a tree saddle sling um quite a bit of the time to um. But but when I'm in a tree stand, I I use my rock climbing harness. And actually most of my friends have converted to that too. Yeah. I haven't gone that route, but I'm I've always been really intrigued by it because, like you said, less bulk, less straps, less stuff to have on you. Um, that's that's gotta be nice. But but I imagine you really got to know the right way to set it up. You need to be doing it the you know, in a particular fashion to make sure it's safe. Right. This isn't something to just buy rock harness and throw it on the tree and think you're okay, you should probably do. I'm not gonna yeah, I'm not gonna recommend it to anyone. Um, it's it's actually very simple. Um, I feel I feel more safe in it, to be honest with you, because if in the event that you do take a slip, um you you know, you swing to the side of the tree and you're facing the tree so you can climb right back up. In fact, he demonstrated that in the video. You know, it kind of fell off the stand and you turn and you face the tree, where in a traditional tree stand harness you might fall and you're facing away from the tree, which kind of have to spin yourself around. You know. I think they're both plenty safe, but yeah, I I mean, I don't go as far as to recommend it because I think you should do your research and make your own decision. But I, for me, I really like it and I feel completely safe in it. Yeah, you mentioned saddles too. I'm I've actually got a saddle on the way. Finally I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try hunting in a saddle this year, and uh see how that goes. I'm excited to put that to the test. Very cool. I have one thing that is preventing me from trying a saddle, and and Andy Mark, you guys both know that sometimes you are in some really thick and nasty type terrain where you know, lots of vegetation, and I just can't get over the fact that if you know, I'm I draw with my right hand, so if I'm facing one direction and a deer comes from my right hand side, I have to, like, I have to move a lot in that tree or like or let him pass if if I'm going to take that shot. And that's something for some reason, I can't get over that. How do you have that? Um, well, it's in that situation when a deer comes on your your kind of your weak side, I guess, or you're off shooting side, you know, you can, Uh, you can't. You can actually, you know, depending on where it's at, you can actually stay where you are and kind of twist um. You have. What you have is something called the bridge and it's a little um like a rope attachment that that hooks to the tree to other and you can actually slide and turn and make that right handed shot. Your other option is to kind of, like you said, creates a little more movement, is is swinging around the tree to the left side to make that shot. I I love hunting out of a saddle, um because you wear it in like a pair of shorts, you know, basically UM. But there I don't think it's the best thing for every situation. That's just my opinion. UM. Like, if you're in a you know there there's some there's some trees I can think of that have maybe have a lot of limbs sticking out um that you can't trim, you know, um or maybe like a cedar tree or or pine tree or something like that. I think those are better suited for tree stands. UM. But you know, if they if you have, um, a tree that you know maybe kind of splits is maybe a single trunk tree or a tree that splits up into two trunks and you don't have a lot of little limbs coming off left and right. Um, that's kind of where they shine. And in a lot of times you can find trees that work. Um, you know, most of the time you can find trees work in the saddle. I tend to get a little higher up in the saddle. And what's cool about it is you can you can put the tree you you you try to put the tree in between where you think the deer is going to come in yourself. So you're kind of almost using it as a shield a blocker, whereas a tree stand you'd be facing that direction or or facing to the right so you could shoot it, you know, going off to your left hand side. That makes sense. Yeah, so you're saying that, you, well, maybe you need to sacrifice a little bit of cover so that you're able to swing around the tree and stuff. You can account for that by height and being on the other side. Is that what you're kind of saying. Yeah. And another thing about the saddle that I think is, you know that kind of is a benefit to it. The way that you hang off the tree, you are shaped more like a limb. You come off at kind of like a forty five degree angle. Especially if you're leaning, you look you look more like a tree branch a limb, as opposed to like in a tree stand, you look like a giant ball sticking off the side of the tree. Unless you're you know, if you see the deer coming, you can stand up and kind of suck into the trunk of the tree and kind of blend in a little bit. That's that's a better situation. But they I've never I've hunted out of him a lot, and I've shot quite a few deer out of them, and I've never had a situation where, um, I thought it hindered me um as far as having to move too much, and I've I've had to move. You you know, you might have to pick your moments. But you know, if you're if you're attentive, um, you know you should have that opportunity where you you have to move. You can do it really kind of slow and methodically, just like you wouldn't tree stand where you stand and you turn, you know, turn to make your shot. You're still moving, So I would uh, I would say give it a try and mark which one are you getting? So I think I'm actually be trying to I think we're gonna try the Kestral, and then I'm also trying this new company. It's called Tethered. Um so I think I'm gonna be trying to model of both and and seeing which one I like best and see what works. Yeah. There, I know a couple of the fellows that are we're involved in developing the Mantis the tether from the Tethered company, and uh they there's some good hunters and knowledgeable guys, and I'm really looking forward to checking that one out myself, to be honest. Yeah, you know, it's been I've been intrigued with saddles for a long time, probably ever since I started reading Eberhart's books. Um but but yeah, I had some of the same concerns Dan had had concerns about how do you film with that? Um but but with all you know, like the public land or different kind of mobile hunting that I'm doing these days, it just seems so nice to not have to hauler stand and with it, you you know, just have this this thing you're wearing, walk in there, throw up some steps and there you go. I mean, that's that's really peeling. So Yeah, that was really nice down in the southern Ohio and those big hills and you know, the big woods setting with the kills and you're walking in you know, there's a there's one one spot that I really like that's a mile and three quarters in and it's it's nice to wear settle and not bringing that whole a lone wolf set up in five sticks. Yeah. So yeah, well, I'll I'll be reporting back I guess later this fall on how all that goes. But I'm excited. UM question here from Derek. This is an email question, and and this I'm kind of Me and Dan have talked about this a little bit in the past. I'm particularly interested in your opinion on this, Andy, Um. And then I've got a little bit to add. But his question is this. He says that over the last five years, I've missed more nice bucks than I've killed. When I get to full draw, I lose all mental control and can't seem to make a good shot no matter how much practice I do before season. I can put six arrows in a pipe plate at sixty yards, all with a surprise release when practicing, But then I've missed bucks cleanly at less than thirty yards, so something needs to be done. I've always consider are going to a back tension release to help force me to aim and not have to worry about punching the trigger. UM. People tell me all the time though, that it won't work. But then I listened to podcast one which is which end quote. That's a podcast we did with Joel Turner talking about this different kind of shot sequence that helps you deal with tire panic. Now back to his question, He then says, and you mentioned how you know other hunters who say they can get a back tension release to work well and to go off whenever they want. UM, you might not be able to answer this question, but if you can, do you know of a certain release that these guys are using, or is there back tension release that you've shot that you believe you could hunt with. Um. He then goes on to say that with the price of back tension releases, I can't afford to buy a bunch of buy a bunch of them and test them all out, so any information would be appreciated. So so, Andy, you helped me last summer deal with my target panic. UM, and we we did a bunch of different things and some of these things we talked about with Joel Turner earlier this year, some things we didn't, Um, could you could you just talk a little bit about what you and me did and then and then also maybe speak to his specific question about whether or not at that tension releases the right option and what models you might recommend. Sure, I this question hits home because I can relate. Um, I from the moment I started bow hunting, I was naturally a really good shot. I my first year getting a bow, I got an archery leagues and I started winning. UM. So I was naturally a good archery shot, but I was a trigger puncher. No one taught me how to shoot. I had one of those releases that had a ton of travel in it, and you know, I just kind of you know, hell I was. I was good at holding the pin on the target or close and making accurate shots. But come to find out, you know, as my hunting career went on, I experienced a lot of the same things that that this guy did. Um. You know, I didn't miss a lot of deer, but I put a lot of bad shots on der um shots that you know, in practice, like he said, I could stack arrows, you know, You're shooting laser beams all sun all summer. You feel great, and then big buck walks out in. You know you kind of you kind of come on glued. You make a terrible shot, and you know, half the time you don't even remember what happened. You know, I wasn't really in control of my shot, but I didn't have anybody to teach me. I thought what I was doing is UH was the right thing. And you know, they don't teach you that really at the archery shops. You know, you go in, you get a bowl, they set you up, they give you a trigger, you know, index trigger at lease, and send you on your way. So it usually UH for the majority of people, UM, myself included. UM, if you end up shooting a lot and hunting a lot, it ends up leading to some form of target panic. UM. And I identified mine about ten years ago. UM. And then and I did kind of the research and found, you know, some people that kind of went through those same situations. I listened to you know, John Dudley, and there's a couple of guys, a couple of really good archers on archery talk that that helped me out. And UH, I did the work to beat target panic. And you know, it was the best thing I've ever done, because ever did as far as archery, because I loved archery. But I found it so frustrating. Um. You know that. I it's almost exacerbates itself when you you start feeling that flinch and that that punching that I want. I gotta go now, I gotta do it now when that pin hits the target. So you practice more, You're like, oh God, I gotta get past this. I gotta beat this. So you focus more and it it just makes it worse. You're actually compounding the issue. So I went through the whole thing. Uh So I totally understand UM. And I think he mentioned a back tension release. What I think he's talking about is what a lot of people refer to as a back tensions as a hinge UM, A hinge release. When you see a lot of the target guys shoot. You can hunt with a hinge. I did so for a year and I made three phenomenal shots on three big bucks with it. UM, But it's not my first choice. It's a great one to learn the unanticipated release, and that's what you're trying to achieve. You're trying to achieve an unanticipated release. So it's hard to explain. I think I explained it to you, Mark because I knew, I know you're more of a techy guy, So I tried to explain it in a term you know or are, in a way that I thought might make sense to you. But like you, I told you, I said, you know, imagine that you have this pre downloaded app in your brain that whatever you look at, if you're staring at the bull's eye, if you're staring at the lungs of a deer, whatever you look at, your pin is going to constantly center itself over that spot. You don't have to do it manually, It'll automatically do that just by you looking at the spot. Okay, so your pinel move, your pin floats, and but it will constantly keep re centering itself, re centering itself over the spot that you're staring at. So I had to get comfortable with my pin float. Everybody has a pin flow. Levin Morgan has a pin float. John Dudley has a pin float. Everybody has a pin flow. They just have less of a pin float. Um. And then what you need to be able to do is run your shot execution independent of that. So what what a lot of guys fall into is they get these index releases. That one there's there's two real common ones. Those really hair trigger those really light ones that you like breathe on and they go off. Those are really bad, they'll cause target panic. And then the other really bad one is the one I think you had mark is one that you had to squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and it like had all of this travel and before it fired. And what what that does is your brain picks up on that movement and you start to anticipate because you feel that you feel that trigger moving, you start to your brain starts to know when it's going to go off. So what you really need to what I recommend to my friends is getting something with uh like a trigger that breaks clean. Um like it can be an index finger. UM. I use the thumb release. I also have a hinge that I use, um you know in the off season because I think it just reinforces an unanticipated shot. But those triggers that are adjustable but they break clean kind of like if you had a really high dollar rifle, you know, those triggers don't move. You apply pressure and they don't move, You apply more pressure, don't move, and then finally you get to the the the amount of pressure that it takes and it breaks clean. And that's what you want. So the way I shoot and how I beat it, I actually used a hinge, but um, you know there's there's there's other ways. Um. But basically you want to get a release like that that has a an adjustable trigger. I like, especially when I'm training trying to beat target panic, I like to set it heavy so that you can load up on that trigger. There's no fear of it going off because it's heavy. You can wrap your finger around, get it deep in that knuckle if if I'm talking about an index figure here. And then, like I said, you stare at your spot. You stare at your bull's eye, you stare at your deer's vitals, your three D target, whatever, and let your pin float. You gotta get comfortable with the pin float. The pin float is normal. That that's not bad. The pin float is good. There's things you can do to minimize your pin float, but you can't let that freak you out. Just keep staring at the spot, apply pressure, and then what I do is I squeeze my back muscle. So I pulled through. I imagine like my release hand or my release arm elbow. I imagine myself trying to pull straight back and touch it to like a door or a wall or something like two inches behind it. There's obviously nothing there, but that's what I imagine. I pull pull pull. I don't squeeze my finger on my thumb. Release, I don't squeeze my thumb. They don't move. It's preloaded, and then I just pull pull pull applies pressure and it builds pressure until the shot breaks. And its the first time you do it, it's like, whoa. I remember seeing your face my first time. You were like you kind of like your whole body come bulsed. You know. It's like because yeah, because you didn't have you you let go of that control. Um so what But after you do it, you do it over and over. And that's why people say, you know, blind veiling as a really good drill. It is is because you're getting used to that surprise release. You're just pulling, pulling, pulling. The shot goes and all you were focusing on was staring at the spot and pulling through. Um, it's it's it's it's simple, but it takes time, especially for someone that's gone through years and years and years of doing it wrong, like I spent about I spent a good six to eight weeks. I had a bag target in my living room, and you know, I put my daughter down for bed, and I would just hammer that thing and over and over and over. And I told myself from the first day, I'm never gonna squeeze my thumb. I'm never gonna squeeze my index finger again. I'm gonna hook it around, I'm gonna preload it and then it won't move. The only movement is me squeezing my back muscles. It's pulling, pulling, pulling with my really sarm with my back muscles and building that pressure until the shot breaks. So it's it's, uh, that's how I did it. You can still do it by squeezing the trigger, but I think guys run into it. I think target panic. It's a little easier to to creep back in when you still do that like finger squeeze, like a slow, steady squeeze. Some guys can do it. I have a buddy that I shot with at the Total Archery Challenge, and he's a stud archer. And that's how he shoots. But if you watch my my video on the Total Archery Challenge, you'll see a couple of my buddies and these guys they shoot pretty good, but there's a couple in there that they punched the trigger and you can see like there's no follow through on the on the back end. You know, it's a it's like a tense punch and they were shooting good, but they if they shot more often, they would run into those issues, um, you know, of anticipating the shot and what you can What what I found too is like on shots on deer. You know when I when I was punching the trigger, the those target panic issues really come out in high pressure situations. So you get this big buck step in front of you, you draw back, you set that pin and as soon usually as soon as it hits brown, you're touching it off because you want to you want to hit that spot so bad. This is your one chance. You know, it all rives on this and you've got you kind of lose everything that you tried to focus on all summer, you know, just slowly squeezing the trigger. But now with this new way of shooting, which is unanticipated. It's a very calm and relaxed way of shooting, like I was shooting at those targets, those little tiny targets at the total archery challenge, you know, at a hundred plus yards, with no anxiety whatsoever, because all I need to do is just stare at the spot, execute my shot, and the arrow is going to go there. So when that deer comes out and it's a high pressure situation, I stare at the spot on the deer where I want to hit. I put my pin on it, I loaded my trigger. I let the pin float. You know, it's it's floating, it's floating, and as I'm just slowly building pressure. So that's how I do it. It's uh, It's worked very well for me. I've helped a lot of my friends kind of work through some things. Um and I had it bad. I have a hole in my hole in my garage window at the very first house I because I sent a narrow through their my head target panics so bad. This is a true story. I drew back, I could I got I had it so bad. At one point I couldn't draw my bullback without hammering the trigger target or not. So yeah, and I've heard stories, and yeah, I I became that guy and I drew back. I put the pin on the window and I said, okay, I'm not going to pull the trigger, and I sent one through the window and oh boy, you know it was that was like that's like as bad as target pay. It gets right there and I was there. So, UM, I would I would suggest Sorry, that was a long story, but I would suggest that guy getting um if he wants to stick with a trigger release. Carter makes some really good uh triggers that break clean. They're adjustable. You can set them heavy for training, you can lighten them up up a little for hunting. Once you ingrain that ingrain that shot sequenced in. Um, there's some other ones. I gave you, uh my old trigger release that's a good one, true ball beast, um, you know. But I would stick with something that has an adjustable trigger that breaks clean. And you gotta just put in the work. There's lots of videos and John Budley has some good ones on YouTube of some drills and stuff, but um, you gotta put in the work. You gotta you gotta develop that new way of shooting. And that's really the only way to beat target panic. You have to let go of control of you can trying to control that pin, let it float, run your shot, exec executions separately. Yeah, I can. I can say that from from your the things we worked on together last summer, I could just see that helping me so much already. UM, and so so everything you said right there, I was putting into practice last summer, all the way through last hunting season and now this year too. And while I haven't actually shot at a deer yet with it, so I can't. I can. I can't point to an in the field experience yet. Um, because of just the way my season went last year. UM, I can definitely say that I feel more comfortable. I don't have the target panic moments that I used to have just when shooting, you know, behind the house and stuff. I remember that I described to you that sometimes when I draw back and I put the pin on, and and one thing I did a lot what you just said is I want I would want to pull the trigger as soon as it hit the bull's eye. Um. Or sometimes I would get this like impulse to shoot, but I'd stop myself. So I'd like should have this like clinch up moment where my trigger, like my brain sent a firing wave that said shoot and then I stopped, but I still had this like jerk. Um. So nothing like that happens at all now, and um even a stupid example. But when I went to go get my most recent bow set up um with with a guy. We went and got arrow set up and got the new bow all all set up and adjusted. We went out behind the shop to do some long range shooting with it. And in the past I probably would have I would have had some nerves around, you know, shooting at fifty or sixty yards in front of this guy who's definitely better archer than me, and especially you know, I was using this whole new shooting process now, so I was like, oh God, am I gonna be able to you know, I don't even practicing it it closer ranges up to that point, um, because you know you and may have been working on just kind of easy my way into it. So I hadn't been shooting out to sixty yards with this new way, but we're checking the bow and he was like, all right, let's try out here at sixties. So I'm like, all right, here we go. And and in my previous life, I totally would have punched one off and just had a flyer. And I did this, and I just stuck to kind of my mantra, just you know, follow that process like you said, and let it float and then just slowly went through and pulled. And I didn't have anything like that in Miraculously, I was bulls in it like like a like a pro normally, not what I would have done in that situation in the past. So that small example of a higher pressure situation, I could see it already paying off. And it's only it's only gotten better since then. So I'm excited to put that into play for sure. I feel I feel uh, I feel compelled to answer the guy's question on a on a release type. So I'm just gonna throw a couple. If he's gonna stick with index finger, get yourself a Carter Quickie or a Carter like Mike. Those are two good ones that have adjustable triggers. There's no travel you can you can, you know, confidently, hook your finger around that trigger and loaded up and let your pin float on the target and pull through. And if you have any uh questions, called Forest. He's the owner and he helps helps you out. He helped me out um when I was going through it. And then there's there's three drills that will kind of if you can, if you're willing to put in the work and you're willing to commit to it. There's three drills that I really like. And I don't have target pantic issues anymore at all, but I still do these three drills all the time. And one is you just draw back and just a you load your trigger up with your finger, your thumb or your index finger, whatever kind of release you're shooting, put the pin on the target and you let it float and just let it float and you're you're in control of the shot. You don't have to touch that off. You are in control. Let the pin float for seconds. Tell whenever you you know your shot deteriorates, let down, take a breathe there for thirty seconds. Do that again, and do that times, and do that for a couple of weeks. You know, that's a really really good drill of just getting used to your pin float. And then the other one that you know you hear a lot is blind bailing. I like this one because it ingrains, especially if you're gonna go to more of like a back tension. People say back tension release, they're talking about a hinge, but back tension is more of a method. You can shoot back tension with an index trigger, you can shoot back tension with thumb trigger. You can shoot back tension with a hinge um. So that's the what I was describing earlier. The pulling motion, the pull through motions, so blind bailing you get. You can take your site off your bow. That's probably the best, or you can close your eyes. Either one doesn't really matter, but you get a point blank range drawback and you just don't aim at anything. Just take your site off or whatever, so you're not looking at anything, and what you're focusing on is the pull through. And remember your thumb. If it's a thumb trigger, your index. If it's an index, figure cannot move. You load up that trigger and then it doesn't move again. That's it, and you pull with your back muscles. Imagine pulling your elbow straight back and touching it to a wall or or something behind you, and you just pull, build that pressure and you slowly increase of building pressure until that shot breaks. And you do that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times until that surprise isn't a surprise anymore. It's just it's still a surprise, but it doesn't freak you out. You're used to it. It's it's just normal. Now. That's that's a really good one. And uh, what's the other one? Um? Oh, the other one I like to do, and I would suggest doing this one after you. Uh you know, I do the other two. First those are kind of the bread and butter, and then the last one is I like to, uh set a target out there, have my sight on everything. I pull back, let my pin flow, load up my trigger, and then I start my shot execution. But I try to do it really slow. I think John Dudley recommended this one and I started doing it. I really liked it. But try to take as long as you can. Try to do the slowest back tension that you can. So what's happening is your pin is floating. You're slowly executing the shot. You're letting it happen. You're just letting your pin float. Try to let it take ten seconds and it won't, but try to let it take tense. I just slow, slow, gradual increase and pull until that shot breaks. Try to slow the process down so that you get to the point or that's not freaking you out anymore, that's just normal. That's you and control the shot. You can run that shot execution fast. On a quick shot on an animal, you just pull quicker, you pull through a little quicker. You can run it slow if you you know, if if you're doing this drill. But typically you want to keep your timing, you know, fairly consistent, like you know in a hunting situation. But these are those are great drills to kind of just get used to that unanticipated release and that that that's the way I was able to beat target panic. Yeah, those are those are helpful for me for sure. Damn you. Um, I don't know if you want to talk about this or not, but I saw you post something on social media and I haven't got to ask you about it yet. You had a little bit of a bow mishap that I that I can't not have us talk about real quick. What happened, man, dude, I straight up, straight up dry fired my bow. Did this happen? So? I was I was shooting some arrows at a at an archery shop, and he went back and he um put in a d loop. He put in a peep site and he um made some adjustments to the bow. Um, I shot one arrow out of it. And I have a routine right where I always kind of touched the peep and then I draw back, I anchor um and then I you know, pull the trigger or whatever, and so the because the peep site wasn't served in yet, I I drew all, I adjusted the peep sites, I drew back, I anchored my you know, my kisser button. I looked through to make sure it was all right, and just subconsciously followed through with that shot sequence without an arrow in it. And yeah, once snapped cam broke and so I got replacement parts coming, uh and I need to get back to the archery shop of them fix it. And uh So it was just one of those dumbass moments that Um, I you know, first time ever in twenty some years of shooting archery, I've ever dry fire to bow or anything like that. And it's embarrassing. But I was gonna say, that's gotta be nice being in the pro shop and being that guy. You know, you're the guy with that podcast network. And here's the funny party is he goes this happens all the time. People dry fire bows all the time, and um, even just people reaching out to me after I made it, made it public that I did this, people are like, hey, man, don't beat yourself up on it. Um, I did it last year, or I did it two years ago, or man, I did it yesterday or whatever. So um made me feel a little bit better. But still it just kind of it just kind of. I think people take archery equipment for granted because it's a bow, but the amount of energy and power that those things can generate is ridiculous. And I have a big scar or a big cut basically it's a welt across the top of my hand to prove it. So, oh, man, that was a brand new prime to right, Yeah, brand new, probably fifth arrow ever shot out of it. That's man brutal. Well, Well, hopefully folks will hear your story and that will help them all be just a tiny bit more aware of not making the same subconscious mistake. Absolutely. Yeah, Okay, so switching gears completely here. Um, we got a question here from Scotty, and Scotty has two questions, so both of these could take us in in long winding paths. So I don't know where this is gonna take us. But question number one, do your chord sightings or deer activity in any kind of hunting journal. I have attempt it a few apps, but most aren't useful when trying to pattern deer movements stands based on wind or weather. Blah blah blah um. Excellent spreadsheets are pain because of manually having to enter weather. But I'm looking for any kind of other recommendations or templates. Um, I'll say really quick, what I do. I have not done a good job in past years. I've tried to do a hunting journal where every hunt or every day I record a few basic things like what stand I was in, what was the wind direction, A handful of other factors like that, and then what deer I saw and some information on those lines. I've done that for portions of seasons, but but never done a great job of following through. What I have done, though, is done a really thorough job when I'm targeting a specific buck, so you know, like with holy Field, now that I'm so focused on him, I have went and created a spreadsheet documenting every daylight sighting or trail camera photo and then all that data, so all the weather data, all the other information around where he came from, where he was going, what time, what was the wind speed, what was the wind direction, what was the bare mentri pressure, what was the temperature? Was it a cold front or not? A whole bunch of stuff like that. So I've been able to do that, and it's not too difficult to do that if it's like one dear year after or or maybe even just like mature buck settings. Um. But it would be hard to do that every single day all the time. But I know people to do I wish I would do that, but I just haven't. Um, Dandy you you know, I haven't heard you talk too much about any kind of document, But have you started doing anything like that or thought about doing something like that? Well? You you know this app mark I use dear lab for for trail cameras though, right, But at the same time, that's how I'm basing all majority of my decision making, right. Yes, I can, um like, I will have my trail cameras in these pinch points, travel corridors, field edges, scrapes, whatever, and collect that data. But it's hard to use this year's data two kind of calculate where a deer is going to be, you know, unless you're in the stand, right, So if you're in the stand and you see a buck, that's easy. You can make that move right then and there. However, all the all the trail camera pictures that I'm using previously through previous seasons, I can use that data to help me forecast deer movement for the next year. So it's like, Okay, well I have a northwest wind and I have it on this day or this moon phase or this barre metric pressure or whatever. Then I can say, well, I can, you know, do my sort. You know that you can. You're able to sort all that data and you can say, well, this tree stand or this trail camera location, which is pretty much represents uh for me the way I use it, represents a tree stand location. You you are able to forecast your movement and look for the best possible tree stand location for those conditions. Yeah, yeah, I love that app for the trail camera thing. I wish you could. I wish you could just add like the actual sighting in there too. And you I know, actually some guys have emailed me and said that they just kind of fudget like they'll upload a trail camera photo that's actually not of a buck. But they'll just like title it or something like sighting on this date and then manually adjust the time and date and everything to make sure it's the right thing, and then it pulls in the proper weather and everything. Um. But but yeah, that's a that's a great tool. It I wish it was both because it would be almost a perfect option. Umr Andy, what do you do? UM? I I have a log back from the very first year I ever hunted, which was UM, so I keep like a like a little journal basically, but um, you know I started with am hunt RPM hunt all the hunt where at? Um? Then I do you know, like the wind, direction, temperature, precipitation, moon phase, that sort of thing. One thing I really regret that not keeping track of was the Barabetrick pressure, especially after listening to Mark Jurry. I was like, gosh, darn, you know, I kept everything except that one thing that he thinks is probably the most influential. So um but like cloud cover all that, and then obviously you know what I saw the deer activity. If I do see um mature deer, I kinda I'll mention how he was moving, what he was doing, was he using the wind, was his wind to the back, you know, also trying to build you know, basically trying to build trends, um, and that's really helped me. Uh, you know, zero in on areas. You know, a lot of guys like asked me because I I don't get to hunt a lot, but you guys will ask like, you know, you seem like you don't hunt very much, but you're efficient. And I think that's part of what really has helped me is that, um, you know the different areas I do hunt because I have logs, I can go back and see like, Okay, you know this area tends to hold you know, dear, if you know three and a half years or older, you know early in the season, you know, I've I've I've noticed that now after hunting their six seven years, Like all my sightings have been before October ten. So now I know that, you know, even though I have hunted, they're on and off, you know, throughout the whole season. Now I have that area where I can focus on those dates and to maximize my time there because I there's a spot in the northern Ohio that the first week of the season is the only time frame I've seen a mature deer and it's been that way for ten years. I've never seen one pass. I think October twelve, Um, the crops come out and they just they just kind of leave. It's a low deer density area. So my point is I'm able to to hunt that, you know, during that first week, but then I have also other areas that seem to trend more in mid October. So then I can you know, jump to these areas that seemed to heat up more during that time. And then obviously your rout spots, um, you know, you're late season spots. So you know, it's basically I'm looking for trends of when I see mature deer activity. But every once in a while. It doesn't happen often, but every once in a while in Michigan, you can, you know, you can develop those trends on an individual buck. Um that happened with my buck last year, um, you know, and then that really helps you kind of zero in on his tendanc seas. Yeah, it's it definitely think I definitely think that recording as much dad as you can will help most people like I, I need to do a better job. I'd like to be keeping a journal like you are um or at least doing something like the trail camera tool like deer lab is that Dan's doing. I think all this stuff helps you wrap your head around everything that's going on. And I know there are a handful of different apps for your phone where you can record sightings and record different things, and I haven't found one that's terribly like easy to use and gets the information that I want in there, Like I haven't. I have not found the perfect solution yet. I've looked at them all and there's good things about some, and there's some things I wish they change. I still haven't found the one that I want to actually use. It's more effective than a than a journal or a spreadsheet or something like deer lab for trail cameras, So it's a It's important stuff though. Um So Scotty's a second question is about you know he he's asking for He asked for a video, but we'll we'll give him a chat. Um. Could you explain your utilization of the wind when you hunt. I get confused when talking about enter entering, exit strategies and hunting wind conditions. If we want to be downwind of a destination, should and the deer want to be downwind that's confusing. Um, So this is something that yeah, we talked about a lot. How do you balance how do you balance your being safe with the wind but also thinking about how dear are using the wind? And UM, I know Dan, you and me, I feel like our own perspectives on this have kind of evolved over the whole course of the podcast to um for sure, So do you want to tackle any portion of this to start in? So it sounds to me like he's relatively new to hunting or starting to get into the details of hunting the wind. And so what I will say is to think, like, think of it as ninety degree angles. Right, if a deer is gonna you know, walk north and south and there's a west wind, you want to be on the east side of that trail, so your scent is not going to be you know, blowing their direction at all. So you know, if the deer hanging out in the on the west quadrants, so to speak, you need to be on the east quadrant, Or if the deer on the south and the wind is coming from the south, you need to be on the north quadrant. So it's just it's just a matter of basically having the wind blow into your face while you're walking to your tree stand in hopes that the deer are going to be in front of you. You know, they're going to be between you and where the wind is blowing from, so you know, and then as time progresses and you become more comfortable with hunting, the wind and this is where I'm at now in my life is getting really aggressive with wind directions to where if the wind shifts a little bit either direction, you're probably gonna be get busted by where you think the deer are coming from. But just just remember that you don't want the wind to blow where you feel the deer are going to be. I mean, that's pretty simple, the most similist, simplest aspect of it. And especially if you're just starting deer hunting and you're and you're not trying to kill a mature buck, if you're more focused on, you know, whatever deer you see, a dough or young bucks or whatever it might be. In those cases, I think it's smart to go completely safe and just make sure that your wind so you know, like you explained, Dan, your scent is blowing a direction opposite of where you think the deer are going to be. Now where this gets um a little more interesting though, and I'll let Andy, I'll let you dive into this a little bit more. But when you start targeting mature bucks, then you want to start considering how mature bucks are using the wind, because they in many cases are using their noses, which is their number one defense mechanism. They're using their noses to make decisions about where they're headed and to check, you know, to see if it's secure. So in many cases they are walking towards something a food source or a betting area with the wind somehow in their face or quartering to them that they can check an area as they walk through. So then you gotta start thinking about that. If I want to hunt this place, how do I think a buck is going to use the wind to approach it? And that's going to help you determine where to be sitting. But at the same time, you need to take that information as a data point, but then also be set up so that if he's coming in with the wind somewhat in his favor, so you can still manage to have your wind avoid him. But usually to get those two things happen at the same time, it's going to be by a narrow margin, like the wind is gonna be blowing by a narrow margin off of wherever he's coming from. So this takes a level of understanding of your area. Um, you really need to have a high level understanding of how a dear probably is going to approach, how he'd be using this wind, and how you can set up to you know, not spook him, but at the same time being the right place. Now, that's kind of a high level idea. Um. And then two, the same thing goes for when you're approaching a tree stand, back to the very beginning, when you're coming into a tree stand or leaving a tree stand, Now it just comes down to making sure you're not having your wind blow to where those deer are at all. Um. But Andy, can you take things to the next level or I guess say whatever you want to about this, But if you want to take things to the next level when it comes to mature bucks and wind stuff, I figured you'd be a good guy to talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I think you guys pretty much nailed it. I mean what I'll I agree with Dan what he says, especially when you're hunting kind of like a travel corridor. You know, you kind of want to be on the down winds downwind side of travel. Um. You know, that might be something I might sit like during the rut. You know, maybe a funnel between two blocks of woods, or between two betting areas or something like that. You know, you could have your have your wind blowing into somewhat of a dead zone if there is one, or at least an area where you least expect dear to come from. Um. But you know, uh, also like you know, like you said, Mark, you got to think how like a mature buck, you know what what does he do? You know at different times of the year. So like during the rut, I like to sit on like down wind sides of dough betting area, So where I know that there's groups of dos uh. You know, I I'll push the envelope and get on the down wind side of that close as I can without bumping deer out. But in that that's an area that bucks tend to gravitate towards naturally during the breeding phase. So you're you're not only getting close to dose which attract bucks, but you're also in the the portion of that betting area where on that given day, when you know, the winds out of the north and you're on that south side, that's bucks are going to gravitate towards that side anyway to scent check that betting area. So you're you're, you're, you're basically just playing the percentages. You know, if you said on the east side, it's you might get one because it's the rut and things happen. But the bucks that are you know, you might get some young bucks that just kind of bust right in and you know, our scent checking them. But the mature buck will typically hit the on wind side kind of on the on the edge of the cover, and that's where I like to set up. So I try to think more of like what does the mature buck do, um, you know during that time? That would be like a like a a typical high percentage rut spot for me. I have several spots like that that is kind of more on the down wind side of like where a lot of where a lot of dolls live essentially, um, you know. And then like when outside of the rut, you know playing you know, how do I hunt the wind? Like if I'm if I'm bed hunting and to be honest with you that the most mature bucks that I have shot, I've I've I've killed some mature ones during the rut. Don't get me wrong, um, I love the rut, but it seems like, you know, probably my four or five most mature buck have come outside of the ruck and typically for me, it's more like kind of early season in mid October, and I'm I'm hunting closer to where where they live, where they bed, and a lot of times, you know, mature bucks will bed in a certain area. The specific winds not always there, but there are definitely wind specific beds. So you know there's there's uh, you know, there might be a buck betting area where he hill bed there on a north wind, or like maybe that's one of his beds on a north wind. So you know, you gotta through your scouting. You know, you can find those spots that you know, when you get that north wind, you can hunt close to that bed. When you get that west wind, you can hunt close to the bed that is used on a west wind. Does that make sense? Yeah, Okay, so it's it's I don't want to say it's high level. I guess it is high level. There's a lot of guys that do this. This is not new, um, but it does take a lot of work. It takes a lot of scouting. It takes off, you know, a fair bit of knowledge. But it's just it just takes a lot of time. You're putting in the work. You're finding dozens and dozens and maybe even hundreds of these beds, and then you have you have those to plug in, you know, in the early season, in mid October, when things aren't heated up, when everybody's kind of waiting for things to break loose. You know, I don't know. I always I like the rut because you see more. It's exciting. But at the same time, I don't know. I I kind of feel like my chances at certain deer kind of go downhill unless I know for a fact that you know a certain buck you know for years, you know, two or three years, he's he tends to be in this little side of this marsh and you know, during the first week in November or something like that, and you do get those trends. But I really like that early season and even mid October. UM, you know, it can be up and down. It's definitely not like lights out, but you can you can make more calculated moves, um, But it just takes a lot of prep time and a lot of preparation scouting that sort of thing. But I will say this too, like you know, when you're hunting a buck, you know in his betting area, Dan you mentioned kind of hunting like an off win in where the you know, the the winds kind of in the buck's favor. I believe this is just my opinion that the buck will move farther. You know, you can set up further back or played a little safer if the if the deer's winds in his favor, I believe, if he's smelling that direction where he wants to go all day long and there's not a trace, I think I I do believe that I've had some pretty early encounters and times of the year where you shouldn't even in Michigan, um, where the opposite you know, if the winds kind of where he's you know, the direction where he you think he's gonna go, and the winds not in his favor. I've seen him. I've actually seen a buck in his bed with the wind not in his favor towards the food source, and he sat there literally till dark till I had to get down and I set up in the stand watching him through my binoculars, and then he stood up. So that's my opinion. I believe that, like when the wind's not in their favors, And I'm based in this. When I'm saying this, I'm talking Michigan, so it's it's a little different. Um, there's other pressured states too, But you know, I believe when the wind is in their favor and they feel safe and they've been smelling that direction for a good portion of the night without any um you know, sign of danger, that they will get up and in the closer you are to their betting area too, there's there's typically a you know, they pick those spots because they're safe. There's there's typically a radius there where they where they do feel comfortable getting up and moving in daylight. But it might be steps, it might be you know, it might be a thirty yard radius from his bed where he feels safe, or it might be a hundred yard radius. It just depends on the terrain. Um. You know, that's something that just comes with a lot of uh experience. You know, different types of train and different types of habitat and different pressure and that sort of thing, and you gotta kind of learn. You'll you'll learn how far you need to push it and how far you can. And I always tell guys to be more aggressive because when you're more aggressive, you're either gonna do it right or you're gonna make a stake. And if you make a mistake, good job, because you just learned something. You know, if you don't make any mistakes, you're not learning much. So mistakes are good because especially early, make a lot of them, made a crap ton of them. That's how you learn the mistakes lesson over time. You know, I still make them, but that's that's that's how you get better. You gotta make the mistakes. So I always say be aggressive. You might blow it out if you do, you just learn something. Okay, next next time, you'll do a little better. When when you're talking to a guy who is a pretty good deer hunter, like he's been doing it for a while, He listens to the podcast, he reads the magazines, he's killed a few nice bucks. Um, he likes it a lot, but he hasn't made it over that hump to the fact, to the point of consistency, where you're ending year out, he's on mature bucks and achieving those goals every year. Is there like a one thing or two things that you finally consistently like usually it's A or B you that will help you get over the hump With most people, is there anything that like jumps out to you? The common thing I see with the guys that like, you know, our successful year in and year out, and and not even just on one big deer, like usually on a couple, um you know, they're usually just they're usually their level of commitment and time is is much higher than uh, you know, the guys that aren't. You know, And I'm not I'm not saying that that's bad or anything. In a lot of ways, it might even be good not to be that committed to deer hunting, to be honest with you, Um you know, I mean there's there comes a sacrifice with that level of commitment. You know, there's family sacrifice, their sacrifice. Maybe with other things that you enjoy doing. Um, you know, maybe you're not. You love to fish, but you don't fish because you're completely obsessed with deer hunting and you're devoting all your time in that. I can I can probably be thrown into that category. Like I have given up pretty much everything else for the little time I do have, I almost always spend it on hunting or archery, almost always. So that's what I see. Those guys. They put in an amount of time and they have a level of commitment that's just um It's just it's above and beyond what most guys even believe they can do UM or are willing to do. Um And And I'm talking the guys that kind of do it. You know, you can you can buy some property and spend a lot of money and kill big bucks. I'm not talking about those guys. I'm talking about the guys that kind of you know, do how we do UM it does it does? It takes a um a level of commitment and sacrifice that I don't necessarily recommend to people. UM. You know, there's there's look at some of the best deer hunters that we know. Dan Infault will be honest with you and he'll say that he regrets some of the things he missed, you know, in his younger years with his family because he was not willing to sacrifice his hunting. So not recommending that, but that's what you see with with those guys that take it to the next that next level, it's a it's a level of commitment and obsession that just is it's it's a whole another stratosphere. And I would add, I would add one thing and uh, and you're kind of an outlier because you traveled to a lot of different states, but you know you've collected your data over years of hunting throughout those those properties. But a lot of the people are close to where they hunt, live close to where they hunt, and they are able to go drive down the roads and glass at night, or do scouting every day, or check trail cameras multiple times um throughout throughout a week, where um, for example, once I got married, my time and being able to follow deer on an individual basis took a huge dive or more more or more when I started having kids. But I was on the property less, I was scouting less, I was relying more on trail cameras. And as we all know, trail cameras are just a sample of what's going on on the property. So the I think some of the guys who are consistently killing big bucks are, like you said, dedicating a lot of time to it, but at the same time able to scout, live close and be aware of everything that's going on on the properties that they do hunt. Sir, Yeah, absolutely, And and I a portion of my hunting UM, I'll say, is is like that. I I hunt some spots that are close to home and to work that are not good. They're just plain and simple. They're not good, but they get me out hunting um. And you know, every once in a while I can turn up a good bucket at those spots. So I'm able to hunt more by having a few of those spots close to home. And yes, I'm sacrificing quality um for the sake of just being able to go out and hunt. I still hunt them smart and I still look for, you know, a buck that I'm interested in. But you know, I'll lower my standards some and my out of state trips are always short, so you know, I shoot nice I've shot some nice deer. But I'm not that guy that's gonna say, you know, I have to shoot a five year old one sixty. I'm not that guy. I'm not UM. When I go on those trips. I want a meaningful experience. I want a nice hunt. And if you know, if it ends with me shooting a nice deer with my boat, I'm happy that's it. And you know I I used to fall into that that category that you are. You kind of compare to other you compare yourself to other guys like gosh, you know he has you know, he has all these leases, or he goes on these outfitted hunts, or you know, he's got this huge wall of you know, one eighties and you know this guy lives in Kansas, and you know I used to kind of fall into that, and it really just it made me more cynical and ruins the experience. What's that It ruins the experience? Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. And and it's you gotta remember, hunting is in a competition everybody. It's not a level playing field. You you work with what you can do. You can do more if you're willing to sacrifice more, um and just be happy with you got nobody. No, nobody is going to care what your wall looks like when you die, right, nobody's gonna care. So really, like, go out and just have some cool experiences, you know, go out and have fun. Shoot a nice dear. You know, I comes by and you're in North Dakota and it's a three and a half year old buck and you want to shoot him. Shoot him. He's a that's a nice dear. You just had an epic hunt with an epic view on a suite road trip, you know what I mean. Like, I don't know, I kind of switched gears on that a long time ago. And you know, I'm I don't compare myself to anybody else. It's just it's it does. It ruins the experience, and just it makes you kind of a grumpy hunter. So you just kind of do your own thing, worry about yourself, and you know, does that have fun with it? Yeah? Yeah, I'm right there with you, and and I me too. For a while there, I was so concerned with like what other people would think about what I shot, And then finally got to the point where it just doesn't matter. To your point, just enjoy yourself, do it for yourself for your own reasons, and the rest of it will take care of itself. Um, So let's hop over to another question real quick. This is from Joe via email, and he says that he heard me and Dan speaking about washing everything and sent as detergents and all that kind of stuff. But his question is this, would it help or hinder to wear those same hunting clothes when you go out scouting so you get smells of the brush and dirt and other stuff like that, UM on your gear. In theory, he seems to think this would work, but does it actually and UM, you know if so, then he also is curious about specific scent control ideas for boots. He wears them often all over his hunting farm. Um. Again because he wants to get the smells of the environment on his boots. UM. He's curious if there's any reality to that or or not. UM. Andy thoughts on wearing your hunting gear when you're scouting in stuff and if that helps? UM, I do not. You know, if if I was scouting in season, like scouting with the stand in my back ready is set up at a moment's notice, yeah, sure, I'd probably have my hunting gear on. But other than that, UM, like what I'm doing now, I do not. UM. I practice control about is to the point where I washed my gear and I take a shower. UM. That's it. I I've I don't really take it any further than that. UM. My scouting gear, I usually wash it and sent free stuff. But I always figure, you know, once it's been on me, it's sort of contaminated. I don't I don't even know that I believe that washing it really does that much for me. Um. But in my mind it helps a little bit. I paid more attention to and then to my boots than anything um. I think that's the one piece that is always touching the ground. Um. So and it can leave a lingering effect. So I I take more care of my boots than than anything else. Um. But not to answer his question, I I have some like dedicated scouting clothes which aren't anything special. Um. And I just kind of keep those washed in the same scent free detergent and just you know, after I wear them, I'm usually if I'm scouting, I'm usually kind of sweaty after and I washed him. Yeah, So what do you do to to manage scent with those boots? Um? I well, yeah, yeah, UM, I keep him in a little tote. Um. I don't wear them other than hunting. Um. And and then I'm gonna speak on hunting around here, like places where I hunt repeatedly. Um, this is this is what I do. Rubber boots Um, I'll I'll use some activated carbon powder that I pour into them, um after each time, or sometimes I'll use zeo light. UM. I don't know if you remember Jim Brocker, Yeah, yeah, so so you know him and I had a conversation a long time ago, and you know he's much smarter man than me when it comes to that kind of stuff. So UM, I believe that that helps. Um. I I can't tell you the last time the dear smell my walking in with with these boots, so that they don't they don't go in the car, They're not on my feet while I'm driving. They stay in the toe. I put them on my hunt. When I'm done, I put them back in the toe, sprinkle a little carbon in there, um, and then they're not brought out again until I hunt again. Now. Uh, when I'm on a road trip, um, if it's a you know in Iowa, I I we hunt some places where there's not terrible walks. I'll still wear those and I'll still treat them the same way. But in southern Ohio, I wear more of like a hiking boot. And I'm there on a short term. I'm probably gonna sit in the spot once. Um, you know, I don't really enjoy walking, you know, a mile or more in those rubber boots, so I'll wear more of a hiking boot. Sent Control there is, in my opinion, pretty feudal. Uh. It's just uh, you know, you're you're working up a sweat walking a mile, carrying of gear on your back, so you stink, you're you're you're saying. Control there, in my opinion, is just playing the wind. I try to walk where I don't think deer will walk, and I try to play the wind, and you know, I just go for it like that in those states. So what I've what I've observed is that deer are much more tolerant of of human scentse Like you know, you know, the mature buck comes to I smells like, yeah, he's still probably gonna bust. But I've had, you know, in some of those less pressured states. It's just they just don't have the negative reaction that they do here and and probably in some other states like New York and Pennsylvania. I'm I'm assuming there, but um so you can get you can get away with a little more. Um. But I don't worry about it as much when I when I have a lot of hiking to do, you know, I'll just wear my good, my good hiking boots. Yeah, that makes sense, That makes sense. And I agree that the rubber boots, even the best ones, they're they're great for your regular everyday stuff. But as soon as you start hiking more than a mile or something like that, or like during shed in season, you can be walking around a lot, man, it just pays to switch to a hiking boot for a comfort standpoint, and just making it there in one piece. Um. Now to the other questions, though, I'll just add I agree with you on the scouting clothes. I wouldn't wear my hunting clothes um, you know for any other reason except for hunt really, And then I'm just keeping washed, keeping them storage somewhere where they're sent free. Um. And then same thing with the boots. I don't take things quite as far as you do with the zero lite powder um, but I do keep them stored somewhere where it's not you know, I don't keep them inside, keep out in my truck or in my barn, um, usually storing a tote during road trips and stuff. And then I spram down when I'm going hunting. And then I also put some spray, some nose jammer on the spray, some nose jammer on the bottom two, which which I've found I think helps them. Um. I've I've had deer come walking, mature box come walking right up my trail, almost like they're intrigued by it, but don't really know what it is, UM or at least don't spook UM. And then I pour some I know that dead down wind makes it. I don't know what it actually is, but some kind of scent absorbing powder I pour. I put that in the inside of my boots. Um what I'm done, and it kind of absorbed some the moisture and sweaty smell and stuff I think out of that. UM. So that's kind of what I do on the boot front. Dan anything else you'd add there. If there's one product, and I know it's this is crazy, what I do is if there's one thing I well, I don't I'm not a freak about sent control on like boots per se. But I use a lot of nose jammer throughout the year. And I walked through a lot of pastures, so from exit and entry routes, I'm spraying a lot of nose jammer and I'm spraying or I'm stepping in as much manure as i can on the way to the tree stand. So um that just you know, I was told told by an old timer to do that, and I've always done that. If i can find a pile of poop, I'm gonna step in it. It makes sense. It makes sense. And scouting, I do most of my scouting during shed season, So unless I get a property that is close to you know, even when I get properties that are close to hunting season, I haven't really scouted him. I'm running a gunning so I'm doing my scouting in my hunting clothes because I'm gonna be hunting. So um, my scouting is done during shed season or or running gun style. Yea makes sense. All right, quick rapid fire question here before we have to wrap it up. Alex from Instagram ask me me personally what I use for my plot screens and I was answer this really quickly. I used to plant a mixture of Egyptian wheat and sorghum to provide this kind of tall barrier of cover around food plots and stuff like that, or areas that you need to access without being seen. This year I'm just landing straight Egyptian wheit. I just bought some cheap Egyptian wheat from the female, going to see how that works. Um, I've heard good things. This stuff grow. It kind of looks like corn sort of it. It grows tall and thick. Um. So this way I can have something like a food plot even adjacent to a big, wide open crop field, but it's feeling secluded so you can't see it inside of that food plot. And that achieves a couple of things for you. If there's you know, if you're within sight of a road, this keeps people on the road from being able to see into your food plot, keeps deer in your food plot from seeing things going on by the road. Or if you need to walk into your property and you don't want animals in the food plot to see you walking, this is another great way to keep that from happening. Um, A whole bunch of different benefits there. So definitely recommend the whole food plat screen idea if you can manage land. That's what I'm doing there. UM, real quick last question for you to um. Nick wants to take his hunting to another level. He's been into whitetail hunting in Michigan now wants to try chasing mule deer or elk out of state. His tons of questions related to that. I'm not gonna have us go through all those, but really quick. He's wondering if we have any recommended resources, UM to help with this process of figuring out how to do an out of state hunt. UM. Anything I know both of you guys have done a few out of state mule deer or elk or analo punts in your case, Andy, any quick tip or quick recommended website or podcasts or resource to help plan that stuff. Andy thoughts, Yeah, yeah, for sure. UM. It's it's that whole research thing out West can be a little overwhelming. UM. There's two UH companies that I know are pretty popular. One is called Epic Outdoors and the other is called Hunting Fool. And they do charge like a yearly membership. But what that gives you is UH magazine, a monthly magazine UM that breaks down each state and species and unit UH draw odds UM. And it gives you access to their consultant guys who you can call them as long as you remember you can call them anytime and you can ask those questions. UM. You know, like you know, I don't want to hunt mule deer, UM, but I want to hunt them next year. Water my options. You know, there's there's certain states where that's just not going to happen, but there are states where it can happen. UM. And it's that might not necessarily be what's considered a trophy hunt, but it's considered out West, they call it more of like an opportunity hunt. So they're there, there are situations or maybe your goal is, hey, I want to hunt hunternadians mule there they'll be able to kind of build you uh uh like a program of of you know, hunt here here, here, build up your experience of hunting mule deer, and then by the time you have four or five points, you can draw this tag and Colorado and you'll be in the neighborhood of adile deer. So those are two that come to mind, UM, that are helpful. UM. And there's some really good podcast uh. The Rich Outdoors is a really good one that I like, UM on out West Hunting UM, Epic Outdoors and Hunting Full have their own podcasts also, and they'll have you know, species and and state breakdown. Um, you know that sort of thing. I'm in the same ballpark, is uh, as the guy that asked this question. I'm hunting meal deer um this year for the first time. UM. I did antelope last year and I'm doing an antelope meal deer combo this year. So I'm kind of in that same ballpark. But you have to kind of have some goals. Um, you know what you want to be hunting. I mean, if you care about size, you know you're gonna have a different draw strategy than maybe someone like me who just wants to go often. So well, I would I would look into those uh, look into those two good good options. Uh, Dan Man, I know that I can't remember what podcast it was that we we talked about this, but you know, dig through the wire to hunt podcasts. There's gotta be one. I don't know the number specifically, but um the uh, we we've talked about several times about how to prep for Western trips. But um, as far as shameless promotion is concerned. Uh, they're on the Sportsman's Nation, Uh Western Big Game Feed. There's a podcast called Rookies in the back Country, and these guys have never hunted out West before and they're they're planning for it, So all of their guests are somewhat experts per se or people who have done Western hunts before and are basically giving the hosts of the podcast information about hunting the West. So a lot of good content there. Cool, that sounds awesome. Yeah, good stuff there. I will throw in a few other recommendations. Go hunt dot com is a website that, again there's a membership fee, but if you become a member, there's tons of information as far as everything you know for each state, for each different species, the different draws, the different units, actual really detailed breakdowns of each unit in each state. I found that very helpful. Um. You know Randy Newberg's podcast, he does a lot of good stuff around helping people get figured out when they're doing their first odd state hunts. And his forum hunt talk um uh or shoot what's the U? R l um? I don't remember the U all but just look up Randy Newberg's website. You'll take you to his forum. That's another good option. Um. Yeah, all the other podcasts you mentioned, there's tons of great information out there. We have, as Dan said, we've done some podcast talking about our own personal experiences. So if you do a little searching through our podcast archives, you'll see them there as well. So, man, I feel like we need to wrap this one up because we've gone pretty long. Um any any final words? Andy, you want to leave our folks with? No? Man, it was it was fun and I appreciate you guys had me on. It was a good time to be happy to do it again. Sometimes, what are you going to write a book? May? I don't think there's any books in my future. Come on, there's gotta be something maybe maybe maybe, you mean, Andy, maybe we'll sit down for seven hours one day and I'll record you talk and then I'll make a book out of it and take the proceeds. What about that? That sounds that sounds like? Sounds fair? Yeah, sounds really fair? Yeah? Alright, uh Dan, anything we need to cover before we go? Science has still not allowed me to grow the fingerback. So good. All right, let's let's wrap this one up and that will do it. So just our usual quick reminders, if you haven't yet subscribed on iTunes, please do that. We also would love rating or reviews there. It's a huge help. If you haven't followed us yet on YouTube. Lots more coming on YouTube, to be sure to subscribe to our channel there too. And finally, thank you all for listening. I appreciate you taking time to spend with us here, I appreciate tuning in being a part of this community. And until next time, stay wired to Hunt.