00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number one sixty and tall the show. We are joined by Brian Call of the Gritty Bowman podcast, and we discussed Brian's lessons learned from applying white tail tactics to blacktail hunting his first white tail bow hunt, and most interesting, the importance of mental toughness when hunting. In a particular conversation around this topic mental toughness, which we get to late in the episode, I think is absolutely killer. Do not miss it. All right, Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast, brought to you by Sitka Gear. And today we've got we've got a fun episode. We've got kind of a widely diverse episode. UM, because in a little while here we're gonna be joined by Brian Call of the Gritty Bowman. And this conversation happened actually a couple of weeks back while I was in Montana for that Sick Gear Converge event that we talked about, UM, and me and Brian got to talk about a whole slew of different things. Um. Kind of interestingly, Brian listened to the Wired Hunt podcast a lot and was able to take the information he heard us talking about when comes to white tails and apply that to his blacktail hunting in Oregon. So we talked about that. Um, we talked about his first white tail hunt in Alabama, and then we get into some really interest instant stuff related to mental toughness and the mental side of hunting. And that's probably my favorite part of this whole conversation that we're gonna listen to here in a second. So some good stuff. But um, but Dan wasn't there with us, obviously. I was there just for this event. But Dan is with us now to catch up on some stuff, and there's lots lots for us to catch up on. Right then, that's the fact Jack even busy man, well at least a day and a half, I was that's good. That's good. Before we get to that busy stuff, I wanna I wanna share a little bit of an update with our audience about something coming up and a change to something that's coming up. I've talked a couple of times in the podcast about the fact that I'm gonna be speaking at the Quality Deer Management National Convention coming up, right. We've talked about this a little bit. Well, you know, the plan was for for us to do a live podcast recording down there, and I've been running through a couple of different ideas of how we might be able to do that. But finally I was like, you know what to do this, right? I just have to somehow get my nine fingered co host down to New Orleans somehow. So I had to bribe your wife. I paid thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars for your wife to allow you to leave the house. Right, And you're gonna be joining me on the stage for the live recording of our podcast with a special guest. I'm not going to talk about who that guest is going to be, but there will be a third person with us, and he's someone I've wanted to have on the podcast for years, um someone who I think is a really interesting um hunter, and we'll have some really great stuff to talk about. But you will be there rocking the stage with me, and I'm pumped about that. Man. How many people are gonna how many people are we going to be in front of? I'm guessing there might be five people that are interested in hearing us Max. There might be five people, Okay, I don't know. I heard like two hundred. But if it's only five, yeah, I mean at that point, it's just like talking to the mountain in my office. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think we're gonna be a big draw, but three to five people might be interested. I have no idea. I mean I talked with Ben Harshein uh of hun Terra Maps the other day and he told me that this isn't like the A T A show. This is the age group here. Uh, like the fifty five and older crowd, and guys like us are and I'm even ten years older than you, but we are we're the minority. Well, I say it's a little bit dramatic. It's definitely not just fifty five and over. I mean, I've been to the National Convention before. It's it's a diverse crew. Okay, but but there's certainly I think it's fair to say, maybe excuse a little bit towards a more mature group. But uh, but I think there'll be people that are interested. I'm excited and you know what we're gonna be talking about and I've touched on this a little bit, but really it's all gonna be about expanding your horizons as a deer hunter, something we talked about a lot here. I'm particularly passionate about just going into places, trying new things. And I think in particular, I mean, I think a lot of the guys that are practicing quality deer management, like really practicing it. Um, some of these guys they own land or they've got a lease and they're managing it and they're putting in habitat improvements and they're doing great stuff, like awesome stuff off the Great deer Hunters. I really enjoy that type of deer hunting too, but I think you sometimes get locked into doing the same thing and you only do that one thing, and I think you miss out a little bit when you don't try new ways of hunting, new experiences and hunting. So my my hope with this is that you know, and this is something we talked about in the podcast a lot, so this isn't anything new for our audience, but um, I hope that we can kind of inspire a few folks, maybe just one person that hey, you know what, I do want to try something different once and you know what, I think it's possible given what these guys had to say. That's that's my hope. So we're to talk about how to pull off these trips, how to have that kind of experience, how to get outside of your comfort zone. UM, And I don't know. I just love going to new places, trying new things. And UM, I think we'll be able to pepper our guests with some questions. And I'm going to share a lot of my experiences and you've done some of this and you can share some thoughts on that. Um and if if nothing else, just you're gonna look very pretty up there on the stage dance. So I think that's key. I'll tell you what. You know, the reason I did a podcast and not like a web show is because of probably of my face. I have a face for radio. Yes, that's that's what they say. Oh yeah, it's gonna be fun. I'm looking forward to it. And UM, I just I was like, you know what, if there's anyone that's gonna be there that wants to be part of a live wearingtome podcasts, they're gonna want the real deal. They're gonna want that real experience and that that's you and me, buddy, that's you doing what we're doing. I appreciate you inviting me. Yeah, I'm excited about it. And I also I haven't even told you about this, but I kind of and volunteering you to do something. UM, and you can tell me, you can tell me if you're not up for this about well, uh, it's quite possible, depends on how the night goes. UM. But I was thinking, would be really cool. You know, I'm sure there's I'm sure there's gonna be some people down there for this big event that um have followed a Wired Hunt podcast and might be interested in and you know, just hanging out with other Wired Hunt podcast listeners. And I was thinking, you know, the events that day, Friday, July one, when we'll be doing our live podcast. Um, the events that day end at like seven o'clock, so there's no like official events the rest of the evening. I was like, you know, it would be really cool to do like a Wired to Hunt meet up anyone down there who'd like to get together with some you know, some fellow white tail nuts and you and me and our guests. We're gonna pick a pick a location like eight o'clock Friday night, and if you're interested, stop them, buy whatever bar restaurant we're at, and uh, have a drink with us. Say hi, talk about the podcast, anything on your mind, and we'll just have a hang out. A bunch of us get together and have a good time. I'm eating Greet, I'm meeting Greet. What do you think? I like the idea? But what time does my flight leave Saturday morning? It is next morning. Oh boy, so I'm gonna I'm gonna have to behave my you will this will be Dan Johnson light. Yeah, no, no hard alcohol exactly. It might be a good idea anyways, though, So this is like this is like a forced filter on on what you do. So it'll be fun, right right, absolutely, So it's gonna be cool. I'd like to meet some of the other guys, you know, some of the people who listen to this and uh, maybe put a name with a face exactly. So we're doing our live podcast recording at the National Convention, which is down in New Orleans, and we are doing this at am on Friday, July. So if this podcast is coming out, you know this is this podcast is basically coming out just a week before we'll be speaking down there. So if you're already going down there, if you live close by, you can still sign up for the convention if you can get a day pass if you want, or show for multiple days. It is really a tremendous event and there is an amazing set of speakers and resources and seminars and things going on there. It really is a great event. I've been several times. It's always great, and um, we'd love to see you there this time with us there. So Friday, July one in the morning for the speaking and then tentatively eight pm meet up that night. I do not have a location picked out yet, but I'm gonna be sharing that on the Wired Hunt Twitter account, Instagram, and Facebook as we get close sources. So just make sure you're following wired Hunt on social media and check that on Friday, and we'll make sure to give that location. So anyone out there who wants to hang out, we'd love to see on Friday. So that's the game plan, Dan, and uh, let's talk dear though, right, let's talk dear, So tell me I got I got one question for you before we get started. Okay, have you checked your cameras on your Michigan farm yet. I've not checked cameras, Okay, so you don't know if holy Field is walking around anywhere. I know nothing, um all I know. I to get a little interesting tidbit. Um uh. The person I know that lives near um this property sort of a friend of mine, acquaintance of mine. Her husband told her that he's been seeing a really big buck in this bean field and he claims like two ft tall the wreck. Yeah, and she called me and said, hey, if you you might want to come and check out this field because there's this really big buck that's been coming out. So I just heard about that a couple of nights ago. I just got home from Missouri, so I haven't I haven't had a chance to go check it out yet, but I'm gonna be heading out tonight probably to go scope this area out and see if this happens to be my man. So I'm excited. That'd be crazy, but yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited that that he could be around, or any any nice buck like that could be around. So it's that time of here. I'm just I'm just pumped to see some big velvet bucks. Awesome, awesome, I uh, I checked my trail cams man, uh, and I had a I finally got a day and a half to where I could go do some um, some actual work and uh, kind of a long story short. I'm looking at a little map right here, one to three, four, five stands prepped and ready to hunt in my traditional rut spots UM for the upcoming season. And I checked three trail cameras while I was out there. One I didn't get too because it's in the way. It's way far back of the farm. I'll let it soak just a little bit longer. Um. Added another camera to a mineral location that I didn't have one on before and uh, and then walked out of the timber with poison ivy and uh and a lot of sweats. So I got But the good thing is I got the work done. And that's what that's what's most important. That is awesome. I love when we get to be able to talk about this stuff like I love the trail camera polls, I love the summer projects, movement stands and everything. UM, like this is this is the chess match. A lot of it's happening right now that it's just a matter of then executing on it or just you know, playing it out, letting, letting the pieces fall where they may. In November, right now we're setting the stage. Um, so this is this is it? Tell me what are these news stands you hung or were these just like trimming out and prepping current stands? Yeah? So I have of those of those five, two of them had stands in the tree from the previous year. So the only thing I had to do was put the sticks up, loosen up the strap, make sure it was safe, doing inspection on it, cut uh like a handful of branches out of the shooting lanes. So basically it was just maintenance. And the other three were full blown trim outs. And I would say out of the eight and a half nine hours I was outside doing work on Saturday, um, i'd say about six or seven hours, we're put into those three standard locations. Yeah. That's that's the real work right there. Yeah. So can you tell me about these locations or or one of these locations, like what's uh why just set up there? What's what's going to make these spots look good? And when you get hunt them? Right? Okay, So as you know, kid coming late September, so my October you know, early season probably just isn't gonna happen unless I'm hunting around home somewhere. But these stand locations are historically good pinch points, right. Um, I've had tree stands in there before, but not in these trees, So I mean you still have to go and do a complete trim out. Um. One is over a very popular fence crossing that is in between the corner of a pasture and a creek, uh with a really steep bank. So the deer aren't going up and down it, They're they're moving through that area. Uh. The other one is another pinch point kind of where one random year I set a trail camera down in this little crossing and I got every mature buck on the property on this one one little area. So I I I think I told you this a little bit before. But there is a small ridge that is in between two bigger ridges. Um, it's short shorter than the it's in the middle. So imagine the ridge is looking like a W right with the middle one being shorter. So I had to set up on the far left part of the W but still get a shot into this pinch point. Becau was my dear lab was showing that of the movement going through that pinch point was happening on a northwest wind. So if I was very like really close to the actually in the pinch point on a northwest wind, my my my wind would be blowing over the middle ridge and and what I where I had sat in the past blowing up into a betting area, right, So I knew that I had a I have I have to hunt this on a northwest wind. I have to have a stand in there for north northwest wind. So I had to move to the west just a little bit more. Um, so that went on a north northwest wind, my scent is blowing up the left side of the small ridge and not going over the ridge into the betting area and blowing out into this pasture. So yeah, so um, just like basically really strategic move on stand location fifty yards away from uh where I was the previous year. And then it's crazy, this is what I've noticed that mice tree stand locations in the past couple of years are less about a area and more about a specific trail, right, and getting in micromanaging those stand locations so much that you can get your access route into these stand locations to the point where you're not getting busted. You have the advantage from the time you walk into the time you get to the stand, and then through historic either trail camera pictures or intel from the stand, you know what trail these deer are using. So the two pinch points stands, I'm literally hunting one, maybe two shooting lanes on the same exact trail. So I mean I set these stands, these stands up at fifteen yards twenty yards shots and just really hoping that on these on the correct winds, I'm getting I'm getting play, uh, you know, from from those trails. That's exciting. I love how stuff we talked about so much, you know, trying to fine tune our sets. You know, we always talked about we need to take that extra effort to to go and make those small adjustments. And I like the fact that sounds like you've done that here. Yeah. So and I got another. So the third full blown uh trim out was down in near a betting area. Right, So previously I hunted on a southwest south wind down in this betting area because if I have anything north, it tends to ride this creek ridge, this creek line in a field edge and deer move up and down it all the time, soul, because I'm gonna be using acts different access routes to this area, like walking through cricks. This year, I needed a place to hunt on a north wind as well, So I have another stand that I walked down there and I full blown trim out was probably fifteen yards to twenty yards away from the stand that was. So I have two stands within twenty yards of each other. Is the old stands still there? Yep? Yep. I left it there, and ever hunt that with a different wind direction or something. Yeah, I have that stand there for a south wind, and then the one, the one I just trimmed out, is for a northwest north wind. Yea. So it's gonna be one of those things where, um, depending on the wind, I'm gonna hunt the same area, but I'm using a different access route and a different stand. That's awesome. Yeah, that's like I feel like that's so. That used to be one of those things earlier in my like hunting time, where I was like, oh, that seems stupid. I have two stands right in the same area on the same food source, so the same whatever, but the more and more I learned experience like that is that's one of those little pro tips like, yes, having just the right angle with a certain wind direction is worth having two different setups in a certain area. Um, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So then I also did a you know, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, and I'm sure it has. You walk into an area and I have this area. It's kind of a betting area, and I'm so anal now about where I'm setting in, what tree that I'm setting my stands in that I walked into this area and I said, okay, northwest wind. Okay, I'm gonna go to this. Uh, I'm gonna go to this tree and set it up. But if it's a little out of the north, this one't work. Okay, So I can't do that tree. So I ended up walking into this area and then walking right back out of it after about thirty minutes of walking around it basically basically scouting because it's gonna be one of those areas where even the smallest a directional wind change is going to result in me having to hunt out of a different tree in that area. So there's no point of pre hanging a set in there unless I was hanging like six sets and I don't have that many tree stands. So this that area is gonna be a run and gun set. Specifically, there's not going because every every every change in wind direction is going to result in a different area of this this this point of a ridge slash betting area that I'm gonna have to hunt in. Did you trim any like lanes out? It's just in like preparation for having a couple of spots to throw a tree standing on the running gun or no? Nope. The only thing that I did was, um, I cut down a small tree that was in between kind of a four like four tree area that had the possibility to know, Okay, I'm gonna cut this tree down and it's gonna lead to me if having to shoot trim one less shooting lane when I go in there for my running gun. That's cool. Yeah, so you've got you've got a good set, Yeah, a good plan set in place. Now how many how many more trips do you plan on going in here to make justments? Or are you done? Are you set with this farm? If I do anything, there's gonna be one, potentially two more stands that I'm gonna be hanging, um, and that will be a one time deal when I go in, and because I still have some trail cameras I need to hang yet. But it's gonna be one, potentially two, and it's gonna be on the exact same ridge, right and they're gonna be probably again twenty yards apart from each other, maybe less one on one side of the ridge on the on the Let's say this ridge runs west west to east, and I'm gonna have one on the south side and one on the north side for different wind directions, and I'll be able to to be honest with you, I'll be able to cut one shooting lane that would lead right from one stand to the next. Nice. So other than that stands other than that potential one. And it's it's been an area that I've hunted before, so I know my way in and out very well. I know the access route in and out, and the only thing I have to do is just set the stand up, um do some trimming. But it's pretty tight in there, so if there is any trimming, it's gonna be very minimal. And yeah, I mean it'll probably, to be honest with you, would probably be a running guns. So the next time I go to my farm, it's gonna be stretched strictly a trail camera check slash uh add new cameras. And then the next time I go in is gonna be one of the last weeks in August, the first first weekend in September, and it's gonna be that transition where I take them off the mineral stations and I put them on pinch points, uh inside corners, fence crossings, whatnot. It's pretty crazy. Season's coming fast, oh man. So so we got to hear about that trail camera poll though before we've shut this down. Dan, how did the trail cameras cards look? I'll tell you what I was pretty I was pretty happy with what I found. Um, I'll be honest, better than last year. As far as a maturity level, I think I was looking at maybe four deer that may make four or older, with one one buck maybe being seven or eight. I I'm gonna have to go back and check some of the old cameras or the old show campics that I have of this buck. But it's a buck I've I've named Dork. He shows up this time of year every year for the past four or five years and um, he's always had a huge body. This year, um, his body, to be honest with you, looks a little smaller. I mean he looks healthy. But as Antler's, he's all mass. He's real tight. He's always been in kind of a I think he's been a ten pointer, but just really tall brows, lots of mass, and just a buck that I would love to run into. Um some year and uh, I don't know, man, other than that, you know, I got a buck that I may have some history with. I posted some pictures on Facebook and Instagram of him. My buddy Ryan seems to think it's a buck that he actually hitting the Antler. Uh. Yeah, he seems to think it might be him. U Um. I've been really digging through pictures to look for a notch on his ear. But this year, all the pictures of him, none of them are straight on, so you can't see his ear if it's got a notch out of it at all. But it is a mature buck. I would think that that buck was two thousand four fifteen sixteen, So that's like if that buck was a four or five year old, that put him at an eight roughly and eight year old this year. So, um, if it is him, maybe, If not, it's a descendant of him. Um really really kg really big ten pointer. Um. I don't know what it will make. He may he may make booner. But you know there's still a lot of season left. But but I'll tell you what this mild winner definitely for for Iowa. Definitely uh, going into this year. I'm seeing healthier bodied bucks and I'm seeing bigger antler development. That's awesome. Husband. How's the rank situation been down by your property? Because I was just talking with with Mark Drury down in the south part of the state and he's been really worried about drought where his properties are. Are you seeing that too? Yep? Until uh it went June second was the last time we got rain down on the main farm. I spoke with the land owner this year. But then I texted another guy in the area yesterday and they got two inches of rain. So my farm got two inches of rain. I mean the crops were looking pretty bad that the beans were real short. Typically this year there at least you know, halfway up the leg or you know, just a little bit below the knee. Uh, And the corn leaves were starting to roll in on each other and that's typical of no water and hot weather. But we got two inches and hopefully some of that absorbed into the ground and got the crops where they needed to, got the you know, because when you get this drought, then you start worrying about h D exactly. Yeah, So I'm just thankful that that that we did get the rain that we uh that we got. Well, that's good, dude. Well hopefully hopefully no disease issues over by you. And I'm glad to hear you got some good ones on camera. And and next week when we do a podcast, um, I should have I should have some updates for you on some trail camera stuff. And we don't have time to talk about now, but next time we'll talk about I've been doing some public land scouting and found some interesting stuff there and uh continue to work on my private properties here in Michigan. So man, that the pieces are coming together. Yep, it's that snowball and it's just gonna start, you know, the train, the locomotion. The locomotive is starting to gain its momentum right and here pretty soon it's just gonna be hold on, it's a wild timing you're coming up, and I'm pumped. I'll see in New Orleans. I will see in New Orleans. I can't wait, buddy. It's gonna be a lot of fun, and I hope I'll see a lot of you guys in New Orleans as well. Now, before we move on to our conversation with Brian, we do need to pause briefly for our Sickest story of the day, and producer Spencer Newarth has got that queue up for us. Next. For this week's Sitka story, we're joined by Dan Ness, a Sitka ambassador an Elk guide who tells us about his role in the harvest of a monster public land bowl. So Elk Cunning in southwest Colorado was guiding my two hundreds from Texas that have been gotten for a few years. Glass and a big, huge meadow and right at last about last light, uh saw an Elk appear at the way far end of the meadow, about six seven hundred yards away. Pick up my glasses and sure enough it's a really nice bull. So I say, a big bull, big bowl. We gotta go close the distance, losing light, get to about foevy yards and roughly and I look at my hunter. Are you confident in the shot? He says, absolutely, So get him set up and I say send it. That bullet goes and here that bullet hit the elk, and and elk takes off and disappears in the brush and kind of looking at each other, and you know, we think the shot was good, but um, we weren't a percent confident on it. So we decided to back up for the evening and just let the bull be in peace and and come back in the morning. While we came back in the morning, and sure enough thunderstorm and rolled in complete downpour, so all the blood was washed away, and just took our time and work through, work through the opinions where we last saw him, and found some tracks and and uh kind of saw a beam of light shining through the trees, and sure enough, there he was, and we ended up finding them and look over on my hunter, I'm like, there he is, man, and celebrated like crazy and for a public land hunt over the calendar. That bull ended up scoring three six and it was one of the most incredible hunts in my life. On Dan's Colorado elk on he was wearing sit because timberline pants and Stratus jacket. If you'd like to create a sick of story of your own or learn more about sit because technical hunting apparel, visit sick gear dot com. So we are in bos And Montana. It is the sick Co Converge event and I'm here with podcast Extraordinary Brian Call. Thanks for being here man. Yeah, I'm excited. I been a big fan of wired Hunt for a long time. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's so cool seeing someone who reached out to me a long time as a listener of the wire Hunt podcast saying hey, you know you've got a decent thing going on, um and then go and show me up and do something so much better. It's awesome. So it's congrats man. Yeah. For those who don't know, I, um, I I heard you on a podcast, um about um business, starting your own business, Phil, I think yes, yes, yes, Hunting Freedom podcast is that it was like how to start? Uh he interviewed, was was that what it's called? Yeah? I think that's what he calls it. And it's all about getting into the bow hunting industry or this is like three years ago one more and so yeah, yeah, I heard you on the podcast and you were talking about UM starting word to hunt, UM, you know you're You're. It was what I loved about it was it was on all you. There was no UM. You weren't partnered up with some company, they weren't paying you to do a show. It was you ran and you made all the decisions all on your own, and you built it all the way up from scratch, and it was very much digital based. And so I heard you on the show talking about it and stuff, and then he said, yeah, anybody who wants to just reach out, And you know, I asked me a question. So I sent you an email. And I had started down this path of of I had bought a computer, figured out how to do a bunch of editing on the computer, shoot some video. I was kind of self teaching myself for like six or seven months. And I had got a film ready and I was gonna put it in full draw film tour, and I just kind of was playing around stuff on my own. But I was thinking about starting a podcast for the Western Side of Hunting and and and so I reached out and you got back to me. But it was like four months after I said the email. If it makes you feel any better, that's kind of the norm for everybody. I'm so horrible and I'm worse than you because there are people who have emailed me. Um, there's just too many. I take it back to It was very cool when I did get a message, you know, um back from you, and we went back and forth a few times. But uh, I couldn't wait. I couldn't wait for you. I had to go on without you. And I'm glad you did. So for those who aren't familiar, tell them, tell us what you ended up doing. Yeah. Yeah, So I started the Gritty Bowman podcast Gritty Bowman brand um UM. I I graduated from b y U with a degree in accounting and information systems, and I went into business and I was I was kind of doing I T consulting and and UH governance compliance work UM as a consultant, and then I went into work for Standard Insurance Company for eight or nine years. And in the midst of that, I I've always been, you know, into entrepreneur stuff. I had a construction company and did a lot of stuff on the side. I did a lot of things that I failed at and uh and then um one I decided I was going to start making personal hunting films just stuff for me and buddies, and I started to learn how to edit and film, and one thing led to another. I really wanted to make something my thought would be cool out of a hunt. We had whatever the hunt is. Each year we'd filmed some stuff and we just put it out there and share it um and there was no goal to like start a business or to do anything with it. And then over time I started having friends come up to me, how do you set up your bow and how do you hunt? And what do you do? And I found myself explaining things to people, what do you I'm big in a diet and fitness, and so I was explaining that in there, and I thought, you know, I should just do a podcast. Even if only friends of mine and family and other people nerd out on it, that's cool. And so I kind of just did it as a hobby and for fun, and I did the filmmaking and the podcast. I ran into Aaron Snyder, who works for Kafaro International, part owner there, and UH followed Aaron for years doing backpack hunting. I'd always reads gear reviews and I go buy all the crap he said to go by and then i'd go hunt and um so I met Aaron one day and at the Sportsman Show in Oregon, and I said, hey, you want to do podcast He's like, do you do podcasts? I'm like, well, I will tomorrow. And did you want to do it? He's like yeah, So he was my first guest. We sat down and we just kind of, yeah, it's very interesting. We sat down and we just chatted it up and I learned a lot of things. I had so many questions for the guy that Florida shelter boots and you know, backpacks, how do you adjust it, how do you load it? You know and stuff that. And I had been doing fairly well on my own backpack hunting. We had gone into Ego caps a couple of times and gone on some pretty deep and remote hikes and hunts. But uh, this is a guy who spent his life doing it, you know, and this is me doing it when I get vacation time. And I geeked out on it. But I was nowhere near Snyder's level, and so it just took off. Conversation was great. I published it and and then I got all these emails asking for another one, and so I didn't more and after about a month, Aaron Snyder called me up and said, hey, how did that podcast go? And I said it, it's like it was really good. That episode did well, and he's like, do you want to do another one? And I said, yeah, if you if you'll do another one. And so we did another one and the same thing happened. More people liked it, and we did another one, another one, and pretty soon we just started doing one every week, and uh, it went from I don't know, I just went from a few people following and just exponentially good snowball. Yeah. So that sort of surprised me at first, and I had to make a decision do I keep putting content out and keep doing this or because it's starting to cutting my day job, Like I already had a good job that paid me well, So what do you do? And it got to a point where I had enough partners and companies who who liked what we were doing when that came to us and said, hey, what's it gonna take so you can do this full time? Um, And we talked about it and it was a took us me a while, and I was fascinated by your story on how you made the jump and went all in with wired hunt and the process, and I followed that closely, and I kind of took other people's advice who had done the same, and at some point I just jumped. You have to take a leap, right. I think if you have something you're passionate about and you want to do it didn't come without cost. I mean I gave up a lot of things to do it, but I gained a lot of things and I don't regret it, and uh, I'm really excited about where it might lead down the road. That's I always get such a kick out of seeing people chase that passion and be willing to obviously put in the work, but then also step out on a limb a little bit because it is outside of the norm. It is different than the safety and security and there's no thing wrong with that type of job, there's nothing wrong with at all. But for some people, if you know the deep down inside of you, that's not what fulfills you, and it's not going to fill you with life and excitement and passion, and you know it's something else to then have the just the the gal to go for it. Um. I really respect and get excited to see that. So it's the need to be able to see you take that leap and uh do it smashing LYE. Well, I appreciate that. I've had a lot of support along the way, and Aaron Snyder has been you know, we're we're uh, you know, every it hasn't been a partnership without problems, right like everybody everything, but uh, you know, Aaron's like a brother now, and there's just very few people that I I enjoy spending time with as much as Aaron, and I think that comes out on the podcast, and uh, and that matters to people. That's good. So that's perfect. So real quick, if you had to get like the fifteen second speel of what Gritty Bowman is for those listening, what are they gonna get? What are they gonna learn? What are they what should they come to expect if they're not already within your world. Um, we are an outdoor like a backpacking, backcountry bow hunting podcast primarily, so that's kind of it in a nutshell. But we talk I've never put rule, like you know, rules around our topics. So we've talked about everything. It's really a life podcast to me, So we talked about everything from entrepreneurship and business to fitness and and and diet and and exercise to hunting. Yeah, I thought that was cool. You guys did like a business book podcast, Like he reads the same stuff I do. We've been Uh, that's been a huge hit. It's been some of our highest downloaded episode have been podcasts about life books like Extreme Ownership, uh and Ego as the Enemy. Those have been yes, and uh so I'm pretty excited about I mean, all of it's been great, but I've I've received a ton of emails or people like I love to hear you talk about hunting. I'd love to hear you and Aeron just hang out, but I love to hear you talk about life more. And so that's been a sort of a thing for me where we haven't know a lot of episodes around that. But you look at Joe Joe Rogan, he's a good friend and he goes out and does shows on whatever he feels like. And I feel like that's what greaty can do. Like it's mine, right, so I can do it on whatever you want, you know, So why not? Yeah, Well, can I talk about whatever I want that on this what I want to talk on this one? Right now is about what brought you to listen to wire hunt originally, as I understand it, Yes, you told me that you start listening to wire to hunt because you're you're blacktail hunter out on the far Pacific Northwest, and you were finding that the white tail stuff we were talking about somehow was relevant to you. So explain that that that really intrigued me to hear what we were talking about in the mission in Michigan or the south or the east could be applicable to a totally different kind of subspecies. Right So, um, I grew up kind of in that western Oregon airspace just uh in Oregon City south of Portland. It's pretty urban area. There's you know, it's all private land, you know, five acre lots here and there and and so forth. And then it gets a little denser in some places, but there's deer run around neighborhood, just like white tail back back east right midwest. But the blacktail in the city, they're the only difference really is they're very nocturnal, like extremely insane me nocturnal. Um, where I think white tail are a little more except when they get to be it's from what I can understand, like when they get to be monsters, A lot of them don't come out until after dark. They figured it out, right, They the reason why they got to be big and old, right, And I figured that out with what Blacktail were the same, and I had to decide. Um. I was trying to figure out how to hunt them, you know. I And and it's interesting because I did a film, UM called so I don't remember my own trophy places, thinking what it's called. Um and uh, I did a Blacktail film and it was on Solo Hunters. Tim Tim put it on Solo Hunter that so, uh that episode is up there on on a Solo Hunter TV on. You can watch it on his channel YouTube or my website. But what happened was and and it kind of documents that story. But what happened is I would I grew up on this acredge in the middle of nowhere in Oregon, and we had about forty acres and then the neighbors all had acredge, and and uh, I never saw a buck the whole time, growing up, like there's like nothing with horns like spikes, you know, here and there, and I see does and I knew there were deer there, but I just never never registered, and my dad would all go back east and wed to the east side of Oregon and we'd hunt mule deer and elk was just like what we did every season. What I didn't realize was there were monster deer right in my backyard. And so game cameras are invented, right and people are using those, and I get a game camera. I remember talking to a friend of mine who was went to his house one day and we hadn't talked much since high school. Go over to his house and I looked, and this is years later, right after high school, and I and he's got these beautiful blacktail box mounted on his wall. I'm like, whoa that those are just amazing. You know, They're kind of small, you know, but they're they're amazing. And he's like they're I'm like, well, they're kind of small. I mean, a lot of the deer I see aren't that small. And he's like, it's not a mule deer, it's a it's a black tail, you know, and uh it just I had never never really been on my radar, and so at that point I started paying attention and their big deer on his wall. I started to realize the difference between a black tail called being back to blacktail and like a white tail and a mule deer and really paying attention and um. Then I wanted to hunt him. And we had all that acreage was it was ours, so we we hung game cameras up all over them uncle aunt and uncle's place, my place, and um. And for the for like a year, I didn't see any Box nothing. And then right when the rut was coming around, all of a sudden, I started seeing Box and I remember seeing him for it was like eleven months. Like we had put those cameras up like around December, and I didn't see any year with antlers. And I still haven't figured out the place. Um. And all I know is that from like the last week of October through Thanksgiving, anything can happen interesting, very I mean, just like white tails and that there the bucks. There's some that I think live right there, and I think there are some that you know, wandering from far away. Um. But what I learned from your podcasts, so I started trying to I started to correlate that. Man, there's a big It seems like the things that you're talking about in white Tail Country would apply and new and we had done some tree stand hunting in some mountain areas and it's it's like, um, it's not like there are a black tail around that you can hunt up in the mountains. That act a lot more like I would think like a Kansas white tail and you walk out and you rattle some antlers and stuff, and they're kind they come charging in and stuff like that. And so I kind of I had done that, and then but I knew they were at my house and I was like, you know, hear them up in the cascades and the mountains and I'm over by mount Hood and I'm trying to hunt these black tails versus in my in the city more or less. I mean, where there's these big bucks ring around. I see him on camera at night. So I started listening to your podcast and started taking bits and pieces from it, and um, and it was really neat to take parts like sent control. It's just not something a lot of guys on the West really paid attention to, you know, putting on some rubber boots. I mean they saw basic stuff for your listeners, But for me, it was like revolutionary, right and so and so, UM, a lot of guys that hunted blacktails, at least where I grew up, they walked. They still hunted, that's how they did it. And they would walk around on the ground and even rattling. They didn't do a lot of it, you know. And there are guys who were killing big black tails and uh, and I was reading their books as well. But I I found that I really enjoyed listening to your podcast and taking those tactics back into the woods. So where to hang up cameras. I started to figure out what staging areas were. We started to you started to um kind of open my eyes to um dear behavior QDM and and we started putting apple trees and different things out on our property. We we logged some things and kind of tried to mimic what it would be like to have a better property. So it's mine, nobody else can come on it. So I wanted to make it so so it was my own paradise of dear activity. And so I started building my land as kind of suit that. And it took about six years. And the deer um right now, you know, it's been three years. I listened to it three years since then, um and and uh, since I really hunted that area, and man, there's some good bucks running around now that weren't there before. And really, I think what it is is we just attract a lot of dos to the property, which then brings those bucks in during the rut um And I just about hunting over dose during the rut That's all I got. So are you just setting up near like dough betting areas and that kind of thing and waiting from the cruise through or yes, you're You're able to identify that kind of stuff similar to what we do in the white Tail world, like where the doors are betting, And I'm sure you kind of know. I kind of know where they're bedded, and I know where they go to feed, you know. And uh, And I don't think we have the deer densities like what you guys have, but and and Blacktail definitely have a certain personality and characteristic about him that make them I think, different, quite a bit different from all white good question. But before we get to that, we're going to take a quick break for our weekly white Tail Wisdom from our friends at white Tail Properties and my good buddy from South Dakota, producer Spencer new Hearth will take it from here. This week with white tail Properties. We are joined by Tom James, a land specialist out of Central Indiana, and Tom is going to be tellious about what to look for when your goal is to flip a property. Okay, great question. Um First and foremost, looking at a good county in your state, or even a good part of the county that is known for producing better quality deer, and that's typically easily found out in the in the state's record book program. So those counties are typically more highly sought after by buyers um as opposed to you know, maybe counties that are off out of that parameter. So number one, a good county, maybe even a better part of the county that is known for producing better deer. Secondly, I would look for property if you can pick up right at market value and slightly under market value, obviously as a home run, but make sure you do your homework, find out what the comps and local local and is selling for. And that mixed recreational ground and that would be timber and maybe some pasture, some tillable ground mixed in. So number two good value at at the current market price. And number three look at uh sometimes an often overlooked aspect of timber that people don't know a lot about is um the quality of the hardwood species that are on the property. If you can find eighteen inch and larger diameter trees in their specifically white oaks, red oaks, walnut, cherry, um, sugar maple, the white oak market is extremely hot right now, and anything above that is gonna that size range is gonna return dividends that you could use the applying to paying the property back off and also doing some great habitat work in the process by opening up the canopy and getting some good habitat work going on in there. If you'd like to learn more and to see the properties that Tom currently has listed for sale, visit white Tail properties dot com. Backslash James, that's j A. M. E. S. So we are. We're in a very different place that we were two seconds ago, Bride, because right a second ago you and we were talking it was nice and quiet, and we're talking about black tails versus white tails, and now it's windy and there's guns being shot behind us. What happened, Well, we're at the SIA Converge event here in uh Montana, and uh I had to step out from the podcast for another obligation and now we're back at it. But now we're out on range day. It's day two of converge. Yep, we're in Paradise Valley, Sika converge. Did I say conversion converge convergion like you had? How how nice is it out here? Though? It's beautiful? Yeah, it's very nice. This whole state is incredible, you know, no offense. I'm going to throw this out there though. Whenever I'm out here, I wonder how come those guys on the east don't move out west? Yeah, no, you're telling me. You are telling me my wife and from there exactly every time we come out here, my wife and I have that conversation. Yeah. But you know, there's a lot of fun stuff there and it really people. Yeah, family and friends. But you know, we keep on getting closer and closer. I mean we spend about three months around here now. Yeah, so we're getting there. But um, but those white tails, yes, they do kind of have my heart. The heart, I mean, it sounds kind of among my family and friends that I left back in Oregon. The blacktail hunting is sorely missed, and I kind of want the whole maybe increased level of mule deer and access to mule deer and a big mule deer, and oh, hunting in Colorado is sort of you know, uh be a salve on the wound of not hunting blacktails, but they're so different. I still missed the blacktail that it doesn't make up for it. You know. Have you how's that movement? It's been really good. I I um, Colorado is kind of the perfect mix of everything for us, you know. And because I'm doing Gretty Bowman full time, I'm allowed to I can kind of live wherever I want to live. And in the past, you know, I I commuted into a major metropolitan area for years, so I kind of need to live near a city that was big, and you know it kinda like most people, I didn't have the the ability to live in a remote area of the United States and the country, you know, as as much as I do now. So I chose Evergreen, Colorado. And it's it's an awesome place. It's not for everybody, because you know, it's a commune. If you're working to down or area to commute, it's a it's a good drive, oh, probably forty five minutes if if the traffic is good. Do you still do you feel like you're a little outside of the chaos of Denver though? Oh? Yeah, No, I mean the mountains it's like this, that's awesome. It's like where we're aver right now. That's I'm jealous. Yeah, it's it's new for me. The weather is the reason I left the Northwest, the rainy. Yeah, I just wanted to uh be out in the sun a lot more so, I I Yeah, I've heard very good things about that area. Yeah, good weather, great access to lots of country and lots of backpacking and hiking and errands there and Cafari was there, and we do so much together that it's nice to have that. Yeah, it's just a great place for us to work together and do things. So so we we we were just talking about black tails and how you were able to pull some white tail info from you know, listening to what we were talking about with our white tail honey back in the day, and you were applying that to blacktails. What just recently this winner you wouldn't chased white tails for the first time? Was that the first time? It was the first time, So I want to hear about that. How did that go? So Okay, So I Aaron, Aaron went to Rite. Yes, Aaron and I went to Alabama and our friend Brian Brodrick he um lives down there in Alabama and he he if you look him up on Instagram, he's Lost Arrow Films and he's a he's a really really cool dude. And he has some access to to land back there, his land that um where they it's only you know, only a few people get to to come on it each year. They manage it. They're careful. They kill a bunch of doughes, but they they try not to kill any bucks. So it's a managed property. Right, so you're spoiled when you're walking in there because it's different than a lot of other places. How big is it is a lot of property. Gosh, I don't know, it's it's uh, it's large. I mean I think it took us in a in a you know, in a buggy. It took us like thirty minutes to cross the whole thing. And yeah, um and uh so they just have a few people that hunted. And so we went out there. Well, the interesting thing about it was it's February where we went, and so Alabama has a February rut hunt. And it's hard for me to picture those critters in the rut in February. And then everybody else is kind of all the other deer done, you know, and this pocket in Alabama is like ramping up. There's going nuts. Bizarre. So we showed up there and I hunted white tails once years and years ago in Idaho and um and uh during the rut in Idaho and and and back then maybe twelve years ago, ten years ago, there wasn't a lot of I mean, it was sort of like white tails were just kind of booming in that area. Um, but anyway, it wasn't like hunting them like how I pictured hunting white tails. I didn't see that many where you tree stand hunting them or like we did. We did both, you know, but we went out. So we go to Alabama and um, the deer there are are. So the thing that stood out to me right was the sheer. Number of deer is crazy, Like there's just there's just so many white tails and they're like rabbits. They just run everywhere. There's just doose fawns, some box and and this is a granted during the rut on a piece of property that's not heavily pressure um and where they select just a few bucks a year off of it. So it was a special place especially for Brian grew up there and realized that that's cool. Yeah, so we went out and we um the deer So white tail are jumpy like true store skittish, jumpy like it's not like blacktail at all. Um. You know. Um we would climb into the tree stand and a blacktail you could almost and and for maybe it's just because the hunting pressure is a lot different there. I mean, that's I'm obviously that's part of it. The way the white tail kind of get jumpy, um looking up. They looked up a lot, like they were scanning the trees. You don't you do not get that with with blacktail they almost never look up. You can get a lot of movement, and I guess a lot of maybe just not a lot of people are tree stand hunting. Yes, in the back I would agree with that. And I would just think there's not a lot of people hunting that species in gen general, so there's a lower deer density and then there's fewer hunters. So um for whatever reason that they but one thing I will say is that blacktail do not behave the same I think regardless. So, um, the way a blacktail moves is it it? In general? This is a broad generalization. I mean from my experience. Okay, in an urban center, the black tail will take two or three steps and stop and just stand for a long time, and then it'll eat a little bit and it'll just stand and look and it'll take a few steps, and it seems it's very calm. It's like chill, and it's just kind of it's on high alert. But it's not jumping at all. It's not flinching, it's not ducking its head, it's not jerking his head around like was there what was there some behind me? This doesn't have like a complex, you know what I mean, like like some of the deer I see, Yeah, like a white like these white tails will like crack. It's popping up there, turning out there, looking around, they looking behind, they're jumping. Everybody's got everybody on edge. Once turning left, once turning right, and it's like what did you see? I don't know, what did you see? And and then they're looking up in the tree. And that kind of spastic, intense activity was very different than what you see with black tail. So the black tail will stand there and they'll move and then when they hear something, they literally will will just stop and freeze and they'll look in the direction, but they won't they won't move. They'll sit there, and they'll sit there sometimes what seems like eternity, and they'll just be frozen, and they will let a predator or let someone. They will just stand there while something walks by them, um, not never giving away their position, never running. They'll just sit there and be a statue. Um where a white tail, um what I observed, Like I'm in a tree stand and uh, you know, Aaron or somebody would come come walking up through the woods to come and get me towards the end of our afternoon hunt, and that white tail would jerk his head up, see something coming and book it. And a black tail in the same situation in general, would freeze and just just kind of wait for that person to walk by without being seen. And sometimes it will take a few steps. And when they leave, they tend to take they they sneak off. They just kind of sneak off and they hide behind a tree and they they don't run the same way and so um, it's it's a they're very cautious, dear, and they tend to if they if something does come in, they kind of they have all their trails that I don't from what I understand, with a lot of black tails, especially in the small urban centers where I was at, they kind of live and reside in a three hundred yard area for most of the years. Really small range, so very very small. So they don't really have a need, especially old bucks, to go very far. They get up, they eat, they drink a little, and they and it's right there. There's so much abundant growth and food and stuff for these bucks that they don't have to really roam much. And and from some of the studies I've heard, they just they won't go very far at all. Um. Whereas and I'm talking about the Lambit Valley talking about coastal blacktail a little more so than I am talking about maybe northern California or further eastward where they're kind of edge box mixed with mule deer genetics and stuff like that. So, how do black tails, the coastal blacks tells that you were hunting, compare with something like a sick of black tail. So I've found a sick of black tail in Prince of Wales Island a few times and um, a couple of times. And uh, I've been to Prince of Wales bear hunting in the spring and I've seen when I'm not hunting black tails, so I've seen them a bit and studied him some. I would say there's a lot of similarities. Um ah. The the older bucks I think on the Sitka bucks are I don't know. They they're very um ah. They kind of move a lot the same like they're they checked their trail. They move a little slower. But I would say that this Sitka blacktail are less they they'll move out faster from my experience, you know. Um it's kind of hard to say because sit blacktail where I was at the some of them I think have never even seen a human in that sense. They didn't. It's hard to observe their behavior because they they're like, oh, they're very curious, and so they just stare at you and you stare at them and they don't run away. It's it's odd so um because they just don't know what yeah behavior really, I don't know that I can talk to about sick a blacktail as much, Um, I hear they're very aggressive and during the rut, but so are Columbian black tail. You know, a lot of people think that you can't rattle them in or that they don't respond like a white tail. And um, I black I've seen some knockdown, drag out brutal blacktail uh fights. And Cameron Haynes has a video, a couple of videos um on on his blacktail film that he made a few years back. Um, he has some footage you got from somebody where two black tails were going at each other. They try to kill each other. You know, I've seen some black tails just go after each other. Um, that's something any species when you see that, that's pretty wild. Faces are in the dirt and they're just trying they're trying to kill each other. So um. The other thing that I noticed with with back to the white tail thing is their their bodies are so at least this is Alabama, right, So um, they're slight like they jump and they move kind of when a white tailed dough, especially when it runs, it's sort of bounces back and forth in the front legs land in a different spot than the back legs. You know what I mean. It's just a very bouncy kind of thing. And uh um, black tail does move like mule deer. They move a lot more like a mule deer. White white tailer their own thing. Man. They don't look like anything mule deer or blacktail. So blacktailer stocky, you know, a little shorter, they don't have the biggest set of antlers, but they still have a stout neck and a stout shoulders and they can still be stocky animals. Sick of black tail same thing. They're They're very stocky and boxy looking. They're thick. They just look cool like you see these deer, those dark foreheads. And especially I feel like whenever I see a sick of black tail hunts raining. So those antlers are glistening and kind of orangy brown, and shot a number of black tail box with red antlers right like red because of the trees that they're rubbing on, right, so it kind of taints and colors. They're antlers in a dark dark brown red color. And they have a double throat patch where they got the white to white patches, and then they're coloring. I honestly think and I love mule deer, and I love white tail, and um, it's sort of for me, it's like, a pretty woman is a pretty woman, whether she's black, white, Asian, pretty girl is a pretty girl, fair enough. A beautiful deer is a beautiful deer, regardless of whether it's blacktail, mule deer, or white tail. But for me, I feel like blacktail Colombian blacktail are the prettiest of them all for me. Their ears, the way that they're set, the stockiness of it, the coloring of their coat, the white patches, that black top cap, and it's just all the coloring and and just the ears in proportion to the antlers and stuff. I just I just think they are beautiful animal. If you're getting a Columbian blacktail and you're just mounting the antlers, you missed out because the beauty really to me is in the shoulder mount the shape of the body, the head, the ears, all that kind of stuff. Just it's amazing. So you know, it's a whole lot of differences between these white tails and blacktails and some similarities. But was it fun? Yeah? I mean, was it as fun what? I? Oh, dude, the white tail scene is um, so back to their behavior a black tail. Uh. Generally most of the time, especially in these city centers, they don't come out until until dark. I mean, there's so nocturnal. Honestly, I might get for all the photos I get, I'll hang like eight or nine cameras on my land, and I would have pictures of bucks, the same ones every year that I'd see every year. And then there would be bucks that I saw once it never saw again, which I think is common across the United States, right, But what would happen would be nine out of like for every buck I saw yet into the dark. You know, if I got ten bucks in the dark, i'd see one in the daylight. And there were there were bucks that you know, with all my cameras that were up, there were bucks that I would see once every other year on a camera during daylight hours. So you're you're saying, You're like, like I would hunt fourteen days in a row on these different spots for a glimpse at one mature buck one and there would be years where I didn't see a single one. A marathon was a very small rewards. You're just you're just out there. It's a we call it. We joke around it's like a unicorn. You're looking for a unicorn. And I remember Scott Hawgan talking about black tails. I mean, Cameron is kind of an anomaly in the sense, well not an anomaly, but there are a lot of guys that hunt in Lane County and kind of more uh. Down in that area Eugene and UM, the deer seemed to move a little better during daytime. There's higher population. Some of the biggest pope and young bucks have been taken in that area. UM. But up where I was at, closer to Portland, Oregon, UM, it was pretty tough to get a deer out during daylight as much as so a lot of guys will jump in their rig and they will drive south and they will hunt south in the in the unit. The in Oregon, the hunt would start a week later or earlier. Rather, I'm sorry, a week took took more than a week earlier down south than it does up north where I was at. UM and Uh, it's just a just a different animal, dude. They just don't come out except for at night, and so you're waiting for that one glimpse. So I'm in Alabama and you contrast that and there are bucks like just running the trees back and forth, chasing, does you know, and you're seeing stuff constantly, like there's a buck over run there and one goes running there and it goes under your standing. And at the same time, they're looking up every now and then and she scanning, so you're like vigilant where they're on edge and you're on edge. Yeah, and they're fighting, you know, you'll see it here and fighting and going at it and grunting and they're making very vocal um. In Alabama, it was just like action action action, and you might you when you sit in a blacktail stand, you're kind of you're in general that does happen. That's happened to me. I've had a couple of magic days where I come across Bucks just fighting and going crazy and and uh. But then there are just days where it's dead, um, and it's only for a seven to ten day window of brilliant you know, broad activity, and that's gone and it's all nighttime again. Where in Alabama was like Broderick was telling us, as long as they don't get two spooked, you know, as long as there's not a lot of human pressure in there, um, they just keep cruising around fighting each other and running around and doing their thing, and and the aggressiveness of them and their daytime movement is just night and day compared to what I've experienced with blacktail. So that daytime movement, to me, is a game changer because you can't hunt him if if if they're not moving during the daytime, you can't kill them. You know, it's not legal. And so that's just and I think probably those old old white tails they don't figure that out. They run at night, they move at night, so very very very tight to their bedrooms. Yeah, and so you're you're trying to find a buck that's just maybe and is in a moment of meet weakness and makes that mistake. And there was a buck I was after for like five years, and I called him Lefty, big blacktail buck, and he had this big hook off his off the base of his antler that just came straight out and it was a super cool dear and he just seemed to get bigger and bigger every year. And uh and uh i um. I missed him months. It was getting really dark. It was pretty low light, and I was chilled, and I took the shot and shot right over his back. And uh, that was the only time I got a shot at him. There were other times I could have shot at him. And uh, it's and I have you to thank for that, because I, UM, I had had this difficulty trying to kill kill him and I and I had tried everything. So I'm listening to your podcast and I'm trying to figure out the thing was is the way that I would hunt him is this is small acreage like eight acres, you know. Now there's other people's property right next to mine, and they liked my land. We had some apple trees and stuff like that, and we I would put apples out, um in a couple of spots, so I knew they were feeding here, and I knew they were betting over here. But he would show up. He would follow some dough was during the rut. They would run. They'd come right to where those apples were. It didn't do me any good to sit where the apples were, because the bucks wouldn't come. They'd linger back, it'd stay back, and so the does would come in and they had to eat, and the buck would just back and be back there. And he would and every now and then I could see a glimpse of where he grunt. Well, he was plenty huntable over there. Um, it just that was somewhere between the betting area and the feeding area right and it was kind of hard to So I started putting cameras up right by the feeding area and then further back and further back, and tried to follow where he was going, where he was trying to figure out where he was coming from. And it's it turned out to be seemed pretty random. But what I figured out was there was a place where he liked to stage every night or every not every night, but often, and if I got on that tree line, he would be in that during daytime as he would kind of sit there and wait and as soon as it got too dark from to shoot, you burst out and come out and hang out. But just he would not ever come out. And uh so I ended up moving right up to the edge of that into that staging area and setting up a couple of stands in there, and then I was getting like then I was actually seeing him move in daylight hour where I could shoot him. I just never got a good shot. How much fun though is that chess match when you're just And it haunts me today because he's the only He's the one buck I really wanted to get all those years, and I never I've never gone. He just disappeared and I never saw him again. Um. There was another buck though that I did shoot years later, after watching him for like three or four years, four years, and I shot him, and uh, it's weird how you get attached to a certain year. And I was actually after I shot him, I was really bummed in a way because it's like now I don't get the chases over. It's like the woods are a little bit emptier. Huh. For sure. I I experienced a sense of loss by that, you know. And it's not like I have. Where I was at, there was a ton of deer, you know. And that's one thing I learned early on is with with those blacktail box. Um, if you shoot like a resident deer that's kind of hanging out in that in your five eight acres right uh, and he's two years old or something, it's gonna take a while to get another buck to take his place because those other bucks, they don't move that much. So we're not finding this new empty spot you're saying exactly, they don't. They're kind of like, well, this is the spot I grew up, and I like it just fine. Why would I leave? And their personalities are such that they seem to just stay. And so even though you've now shot a couple of Bucks and now there's this theoretically there's this space for him to move into for feed and shelter and you know, something like that, they don't seem to take advantage of it unless they're born there. So I didn't see a lot of territorial uh, like I didn't. We'd patting cameras up all over our friends properties and Anthony was a big white tail and blacktail killer. And you know, I'm sure other people had other experiences, but in Oregon City where I was at, it was kind of the common thing. And so certain areas though we're really hot with Bucks and some not UM, and in my particular area just uh, it seemed to for whatever reason, UM didn't have a lot of shelter and stuff for or something for the big box UM. But they would come there during the run. And so I had to work with what I what I owned, and what I could hunt, you know, and we I hunted overdose. That was my strategy, smart find the dose and then when they come in heat. The game was on. In any moment, he could make a he or a couple other bucks could make a mistake. And you what's cool, what keeps you owing is you see them every day, like every time you get your game carried out and you check your three or four cameras, They're on there every time. So you're like, well he came in to the stand twenty minutes after I left. You get that little like bump of like excitement, a little more hope you know he's still there. And so, um, I found that that So back to how I hunted, though I would I had a trail that um so my friend Chris pasqual he um, he owns up he runs is it September yet? It's a Facebook page and our group and and uh he's a big time white black tail hunter and he shot at a buck he called Daddy, and uh, it's a big deer. I don't know. It was like a hunt like think or something like blacktail monster is huge. And so he was on the podcast and we talked about this a lot, and and it's like it's in a city center where this deer kind of mean, it's a It's it's not like it's in the mountains, don't in the big blacktail? Yeah yeah, I mean a hundred calling shot a hundred. And these are bona fide black tails down like right there in the lambit. Like, um, anyway, he shoots this buck and it's a giant. I mean as far as blacktails go, it's a giant. And he he did this same thing, Like we would walk in and there's a trail that you could hit And I learned this the hard way. You walk in and and you have your tree stand. So I would walk in on that trail and I would put apples down. And the same thing with Chris, he'd put apples down. A lot of guys will use apples. It's perfectly legal in Oregon. And and uh, all we're doing is like on a five acre piece. We're just trying to attract some deer into that area. Like I said, I didn't even hunt the apples most of the time because it didn't do me any good. Because when I wanted, I could shoot a young buck, by that's not what I wanted. And the big bucks, I've yet to see a big buck eat the apples I put on the ground in like eight years. I feel like that's really similar to I mean, Texas is different, but I think a lot of places where you bathe, those mature bucks just they don't want to come all the way into it. The does do. And I think it's because they have fonds defeat and they're more desperate, they're hungrier. They they you know, those bucks can be selfish. They can breathe and then they can just go lay down, rest and eat all day long other sources. So they don't take the risk. But I would. We would walk in about every three or four days, and it's right, it's in my backyard. So I'd walk in, drop some apples, walk out, and just a five gallon bucket of a few apples. And as you do that throughout, you know, July, August, September, October, November, you know, it's just putting a few out every other week, or as I get closer this season, I'm trying to keep it more stocked. And there's apple orchards all over and so there's a there was a whole ton of apples on every piece of property surrounding me, and so you just go fill up trash cans full of apples that just they are already on the ground. If I had access to hunt one of those, like a lot of guys do, I just hunt under the apple tree, and I wouldn't have the drop dump drop, you know. So anyway, what I found was as long as I stayed on that trail, those bucks and those deer, they didn't care. They didn't care that I came in and out all the time, and they would come right up to the apples and the trail and the big box would stay in the area, got used to it, going back and forth the same place, and they absolutely condition them. And then as soon as I there's a couple of times where like I made a shot on a deer or or I explored off trail, and that proved to be devastating because as soon as I went off trail and left some scent in the area surrounding, they knew it right away, and they would just start coming in at night, only nocturnal for two or three weeks. So just go nocturnal like that, and then then your season is blown. So I was paranoid to leave trail ever, right, And so you get a couple of places that you get them used to, and they're okay with you as long as you're doing the same thing all the time. But as soon as we started going in other areas and went off trail, your season could be shot like posed. And so when I listened to your podcast, I was like, well, I need to find a way too, And I learned methods for for you know, rubber boots and how to do scent and how to pressure just to try to keep as much sent in the area out of there as possible. And um, but you talked about some staging areas, and so the next year I started walking into some of these areas and setting up tree stands where I thought it would uh, where I get closer and too to intercept a year on its way through a spot on the way to where the apples were. There were no apples there, but I would put a camera there, and uh, and I started to see. I started get into bucks in daylight and it had been like seven years where I had hunted and and just I hadn't been doing it right, you know. And uh, still it was really tough, and I never got a really good daytime opportunity was always still low light. But um, I actually got a lot of really great you know, three or four point bucks that are that are three years old? You know, four years old. I never really all that time hunting black tails. I never really on my own land. I never really got a poke at it at the bucks I wanted that I knew were there. But the real big boys part of it was, you know dilemma, right, You go in and you sit your stand two days, three days, four days, five days in a row. Now, if your camera is telling you that a mature blacktail box will walk by your tree stand during daylight hours once and every ten days, then you got a one out of ten days chance, right. But I guess s where you're going with this, Yeah, so you got a ten percent chance every time you're in that standard today might be those one of those ten days. So in theory, if you sat in that stand every day for ten days, you get your chance, right, But you're stinking up that joints every time you do it. So you're in this conundrum where you're like, do I go in there and and just sit it every every day for ten days, twelve days, fifteen days in a row in the same spot, or do you just gamble and go in once every five days and just hope you're there? Could be five years before you have the time in the stand where you do that's trick. And I feel like on the white tail side the way like I've always tried to, there's no perfect dance with that. It's okay. I think of where I have that best chance. So if you think there's the ten percent best chance in this stand and then it's you wait for some set of conditions, it's going to give you an increase in that, and you don't go in until you have the best set. So on the one day when you're actually gonna have a sixteen percent chance because the cold front hit, then that's your day going there. Or just like I said, every day you go in there, it goes from ten to nine to eight, seven to six. So I'm like, I'd rather do three hunts and get sixteen versus. And that's tough though, And that's tough, and that's what I started doing later on because I cared more about getting a big buck. You know. It's just the challenge of the unicorn that we call it. You know, I'm trying to find that unicorn in the woods. But it's it's it's a tough decision to make. But I thought, what I what I felt like if I could, if if I could go in there and keep my eyes on cameras, I started to get a feel for those in heat right and there. It's hard to tell if you're looking at the same dough right because they all kind of look the same, but you start started to get a feel for how many doughs were out there, and does and fawn mixtures, like this dough has one fawn, this doll has three, this dough has two, and they were they and so I kind of like, okay, there's there's like three fawns. There're three doughs with fawns. I started to pick out and yeah, and then I was like, okay, so there's not a lot out there. You know, you're talking three doughs and their babies and and then a couple of big bucks and some young bucks. So the young bucks are stupid. I mean anybody, I mean, I mean not to discourage anyone who shoots a three year old black tail, because it's still a challenge, but there's there's no comparison and how how easy it is to kill a three year old black tail versus a six year old black there's not even in the same planet universe, you know. But when I would go out there, I I started to feel out the dos and then I could see him squatting a pea and running around and doing odd rutting behavior. Started to pick that out on the camera, and I had a number of cameras up so I could walk in check the cameras, and I started to go, well, if I don't see any rutting activity on the camera whatsoever, then I'm not going to hunt the stand because it didn't really pay off. And that's where I started to be able to spend less time because you sit there eight hours. It's bad enough you gotta walk in, check your camera and walk out, but still you're not sitting there just sort of letting scent dissipate hour after hour after hour. And I found that that worked best. And so what I would do is it was funny. I would go in like every other day and check the camera and I'd come out my dad and I would sit down on the living room table and I go through the camera and he's just like, you know how it is? You're like, is he there is here? What are they doing this? One? And all of a sudden and hes there. It's on it's on, it's on, and then it's like from that day on, I'd sit three or four days in a row and and surely there would be action almost every time conditions. I just feel like I was so close to making it happen on so many but so keeps straw back. But let me ask you this, Like you could have spent time chasing a different deer, Like I know of other box that are easier to target on other property, And I could have spent my time invested in something where the bucks was even bigger. Like when I talk about Lefty being big, he's he's big, but he's not like he's not like a lot of black tails, you know, a hundred thirty blacktail, and I'm like, oh my god, the biggest blacktail I'd ever seen on this property. Or I lived and I grew up. But for me and I did that film with timber Net that went on Solo hunter um about black tails and trophy places what we call it. That's where I grew up. And there's something sentimental from either there's something of a challenge. It wasn't about the size of the deer, it was about getting it done in that place that I cherish where I have childhood memories I can, so I sit there and I'm like, but I have been so much better off, you know, going up to the Upper Clackamus or these other areas where we know they're giant box and there are a lot easier to kill. And because that's one thing I would say is I would hunt with my buddy Anthony. We would go um up in the Cascades and hunt black tails. And the second season typically was around November. And I've seen and and those bucks and that and that. The area up there, those deer tend to act a little more like the white tail in Alabama, and so it's not like an urban city center kind of place. They're not as cautious, they're not used to humans being in there their space, and they're running around and they're doing things differently. And so if I hunted deer there, it was a lot different than hunting them at my house. And I we went up there four times, four or five times, and every time we got a shot, and Anthony shot two nice bucks up there, and we only went to there, like I mean, you can count it on both hands. So it's like, why don't we go in there all the time, right, I know what you're saying that there you have special places, especially when the memories are It was the chess match. When I went up on the mountains. It was like you walk in, you find a trail, there'd be snow a foot of it, maybe you see where the deer headed. You climbated a tree stand and it was fun and the deer will be running around. But it wasn't the deer that I had done reconnaissance with for eight months. It wasn't the deer that I had like a five year history with. It wasn't. It's almost obsessively ridiculous, like why would you? But but yeah, because you're not chasing an animal, and like you're not chasing, there's different things you're doing. You're you're in it for the fun of the chase. And there is an interesting thing between hunting deer versus hunting a deer and when you have an opportunity to hunt a deer and learn a deer and all that chest like we talked about, I mean that is it just gets in your blood, does And I've got I mean, I'm in a site. That's why I liked your podcast to where I listened to it like crazy because you're talking about Jawbreaker, You're talking about you know, you're I'm following, and I'm relating to you as I'm thinking of the dear I've needed and that I'm following, and I'm like, it was so relatable to me and the frustrations and the challenges and the goal, you know, trying to go after it. And when I looked around and I talked to buddies, they didn't get it because they're hunting like your most Western hunters do. There's not a specific deer. We're not, you know, people aren't doing it that way. And so it was fun to apply what I learned from your show to the black Tail space into what I what I experienced there and made a whole movie around it. You know. It's so But then at the same time, I mean, there's also something really awesome about going to a brand new place and what are we gonna find, how are we gonna make it? We're gonna make it work? And do you you've never seen before shows up and that is pretty special to Aaron says, Uh, he's funny. He talks about white Tail like the ones in Alabama. He talks some crap no, No, he's like, he's like, look, these deer are like the ones that grew up in Chechenia. Like they He's like, they're there there. You know, you grow up in a in a combat zone, you act differently, like you're always checking over your shoulders. Like Kansas deer, they're like they grew up in like suburban white neighborhoods and and they're they're just nice. They're not warriors. Do not like warriors. They're not like and so he was talking about a very good analogy. Yeah, and you're you're hitting these kids that grew up in the hood that are always like on high alert versus a kid that grew up in in a a pretty soft situation. He said, Uh, it's very very different hunting an animal like that. And that's what we found in some of these areas because we've both we've never owned a lot of land or had, you know, really nice places to hunt like like that. But Alabama, you could tell those those you're good hunted even on this land, like Broderick was talking about, He's like, hey, out here on this property, there is not We don't put a lot of pressure on them, We try not to, but every piece of property around this place. It's hammered. Yeah, that'll that will make an impact. I feel that that way all the time. Michigan too, and it changes it completly changes that Michigan like that. Yeah no, that said, though you still got it done right. Well. I mean, I feel like Bratt Broaderick was really cool. He um he wanted to shoot. So Aaron Snyder and I have vastly different personalities if people can't tell that the show. Uh, and yet we're like super good close friends like everything. We compliment each other well and uh, Aaron has no patience, you know, so sitting in a tree stand, for one, is something he can do but he does not like. And sitting still in a tree stand is even worse. I don't want to sit with Aaron a tree stands. I'm like anal retentive. I get in the stand and I lean back and I am a statue. I don't move a muscle and I sit there and I sit like that for hours, and I'm geeking out the whole time. I don't know why. It's maybe and I don't I don't remember being like that when I was younger, But after Chasing Black Hills, I just you never know when one's looking at you, you know, or when that big bons coming in. And it seems like every time that one time, like a you know, I'm gonna stretch my legs then you there. So Aaron is not patient, and Aaron also can't not shoot. So Brian's like, Aaron wants to kill animals. He likes to, he likes to take the shots. And and he's not all that big, he's not. He's never been a big antler chaser. You know. He love to shoot a big animal, but he's not he's not in it for that reason. Um. So, long story short, he shot those and it was funny because he'd sit the stand, does would come in. He'd be getting towards dark, and he'd be like, it's almost dark, I'm gonna shoot that dough. And it's like forty five minutes still dark when the bucks are gonna come in, and Aaron's like, no, no, I'm just gonna shoot the dough. And it shoots the dough and of course the whole like field act feel, just disappears and vacates and and and uh so he did that twice. Um, and we're only hunting like four days. So I'm on the other hand, I have does walking all around. I'm just waiting. I don't want to shoot that the dough that's in heat that's gonna bring that buck in. Yeah, that's my live decoil. And so and uh, I haven't had a lot of chances to shoot to hunt um areas where they're they have white tails of this caliber available, you know, So I was patient. I'm like, I'll I could shoot a dough anytime I want. I'm gonna wait until that that buck comes in. And and uh, that's really the only difference. Aaron shot a couple of bucks, and and Daron shot a couple of bucks. I mean a couple of does, a couple of dos like I didn't see. Yeah, he shot a couple of does, and I think that that highly impact his uh. And and then he never there was never a buck that was a shooter that came in lots of lots of other bucks. But and for me, it was like the last day or second to the last day. Roderick took me into a place and we had never used I've never used the climber tree stand before. And he had a nice alpha hang on climber and it was really cool. It was neat. We just kind of like snipers snuck in there, you know, like got into this spot, got up in a tree. Yeah, and and the wind was just right and it was just breaking daylight. We got up in the tree and we were not up in the tree twenty minutes and deer were just coming out of woodwork everywhere. And uh, and it was neat because he's like buck, dear left, buck straight in front, there's a buck behind you, you know. And nothing was a shooter. But I'm seeing all these deer and I'm like, oh, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. So earlier there was a giant white tail the first day I climbed in the stand, and you know how they are when they're running. He never stopped, like he was within range a couple of times, but he just wouldn't. You could grunt and scream, like practically yell at the thing. He did not care and he was chasing a dough and there was no stopping him. He never spooked or got out of there. He just never gave me a shot. And it happened a couple of times throughout the morning. And after seeing that, dear I didn't want I I you know how it is like you see a one eight inch mule deer and all of a sudden you're ruined for the rest of the week because you can't get yoursel there. Yeah, he's out there, might be totally And so I kept passing on some other stuff. But this buck came in and he was nowhere near the same caliber. But he was a cool buck that that he was like four years old or something, and and um, Brian had seen him many times, and he wasn't too big a dear. He wasn't he didn't look like he had the genetics that he wanted long term. And I think it's just an excuse to let me shoot it, because they typically don't shoot a deer that that's small, like the rule on the aight ridges, kind of like Dirk Durham over there, you know, or you know, like anyway, I I decided to. I decided to. He said green light, and so buck down and I let it rip. And and this is the thing that surprised me. I mean didn't surprise me, but it just gave me him a new respect for for whitetail. Um. I had been told by a lot of people including Brian and Aaron that you know, it's better to just shoot than it is to grunt or get him to stop. And they kind of look and they freeze and they get on edge and then they hear the then the arrow goes and I cannot believe how fast, how lightning fast, they are. Ump. He dropped like almost I think a foot roughly, and so he's only I think he's twenty five yards. And I put that pin and I and I aimed low, just just kind of low, just in case um he dropped, but I wasn't low enough and so I'm three inches low and he dropped a whole foot and so that arrow hit him, actually hit him in the spine, and he just hit the dirt, you know, And so I I put another arrow in him, and he was done like instantly, And it's kind of it's kind of it's it's refreshing and not when you see an animal drop right in front of you and you don't have to track it. It's like a relief, like he's right there, like you did it, You're done. It's like it's just at the same time, you you hit something in the spine and you're just like the whole time you wanted to be over as fast as you can. You're like, I don't like seeing this animal on the ground like that. Yeah. The first time I ever spind a deer, it was a dough and it was it was like a really painful experience for me too. I felt horrible because the spinder she dropped, she was still moving around another shot and I was freaking out rushed the second shot and that wasn't the shot that was gonna end it immediately either, So then panicking again and grabbed the third arrow. And you just feel, I mean, that is the absolute worst thing you want to have happened. Yeah, it's and I feel like, you know, Aaron spind his as well. Both of them they just dropped. And I have the film, and I had the film of the buckeye shot and he's standing there and Brodrick actually grunted. I was at full draw. I was kind of kind of let him walk. But the wind was blowing straight straight toward the buck, a stiff wind out in front of the buck, i should say, And so another ten yards and he was going to hit our wind, our wind pattern, you know, he'd be down wind of us. And so we knew he was coming in close, and Brodrick was like, Okay, that's far enough. And I was at full draw and I was kind of hoping for him to stop, and he just decided, well, it's better to stop him there and get him on edge than it is for him to smell us and just bolt. So he he grunted and the bucks stopped, and he looked right at us, of course, and I didn't give him much time. I mean, I already had the pin pretty much settled and I let it rip, and he on the video you market where he's standing and where he drops too, and the arrow is perfect. It's gonna punch center punch him, and he just it just he just drops and I couldn't believe. I mean, his legs went down, his elbows were almost on the ground. I'm like, man, that is just a fast, fast response. I feel it's so often it happens, and that doesn't happen, Like muledeer don't do that. You know they can, but it's just not common. Mule deer, elk, blacktail. It's but those white tail have such a fast, twitch like speed about them. That's cool. So what do you think do you want to do? It again, would you ever go on like a Midwestern white tail hunt? See what that's all about? Is that has that intrigued you yet? So I talked to Aaron about this before we even we're very we we'd only know each other about a month or two, and I was telling him how much I enjoyed blacktail hunting, and we talked about white tail and he was he said, based in the answer is yes. I I think that I love the chess match, I love sitting in a tree, and I love ambush hunting. I love ambush hunting. I like spotting stock as well, and I've done a lot of that. Any any hunters has been on the West West Side a lot. You just that's what your bread and butter is. But I won't deny that finding a spot where you're gonna where you predict animals will will come, and sitting and wait for me, that is fun. That is fun. Whether that's you know, a thicket of bushes, you know, a ground blind when you made yourself or when you popped up, or a tree stand, it doesn't matter for me. It's the sitting and the waiting and knowing that that you're And I learned this from still hunting, like I've still hunting blacktails a lot. Still hunting for black tails is almost the guys that are really good at it, they walk a foot or two and they stand still for five minutes. And they walk a foot or two and they stand still for five minutes, I mean two minutes. Three minute a long time, and it might take them an hour to get yards. And I've learned from from hunting blacktails that I used to think I was quiet when I would sneak into the woods. So when I started walking into my stand hunt, I would do that where I would walk in and you climb up in your tree stand. And tried to explain this to guys who haven't done a lot of trees stand hunting. Climb up in your stand and you sit there and you're like, man, I was so sneaky. I got in here so quietly. You're in their stand, and all of a sudden you hear like this bird starts to chirp, and then another bird, and then you see like a a squirrel pop out, and then birds, and then the forest just turns on. It turns on, it's going crazy and berzerko. And you're like, I wasn't sneaky at all, not in the slightest And I thought about that. I thought about that a lot, since one I think I'm meaning quiet and I'm going through the trees, the animals are like ducking for cover and they know what's up, and so they might as well have a megaphone outgoing someone's coming comes because those deer. I've seen it happen where I'm up in my stand and some dog or something comes uh out and starts kind of walking down one of the trails and the forest just ripples like with silence until it reaches my spot. It's like it's like they know. And the deer they go up on edge, they may not see or hear the dog. They just saw the squirrels and the birds and everything else that went on alert or acted funny and and they ditch it. So if I'm still hunting the wrong way, that's tough, man. It's tough to like make it work. So I've learned that there's a lot of value in ambush hunting UM, and so I do like, even when I'm hunting out to go out and sit in a spot um and wait for them to come to me rather than me blunder through the trees in their living room and bump them around. That's that's hard. I feel like that's hard for a lot of guys, especially out the West, that are born and raised on stalking them around. It's hard to sit and wait and uh, it's interesting what you said about the ambush side, because a lot of people can't relate unless you haven't done it. But there is something about it's it's like a pre hunt. All the work you do and thinking about that chest mass match and looking at maps and scouting and setting tree stands or trail cameras, that's almost the hunt and all that. It's like this, it's in your head work and once once you get up in there, that's okay. Now, let's just see if it's like hitting dominoes. Did I align these dominoes up right now? We're just gonna tap that first one. We're gonna see what's gonna happen, and watching those dominodes trickle down till it comes. When that happens, that is like a tremendous feeling of satisfaction. Yeah, I don't happen often, but when it does. Aaron and I have talked about this a few times where out West. You know, you get the out West guys that are like those white tail guys. It's so easy to just walk out on a farm. They got food plots, the climbing is stand. They just shoot the first thing that comes. It's like baiting. It's like they make it sound like it's this easy thing that anybody can do. And I'm sure there are pieces of proper yeah where that's but that is not the norm. But you know, we always think it's easier than it really is when it when you haven't walked in another man's shoes. But as soon as you climb up into a tree and air, and I have talked about this. Hell, if it's fifty degrees outside and you're sitting there and you don't have the right clothes, you're freezing to death in like one hour. It's all you can do to stay up in the stand. And so and then you guys are hunting in some weather that's just stupid, like negative twenty degrees and you're sitting for hours and hours, And that right there is its own level of mental toughness and mental discipline that I think a lot of Western hunters are like dude ways two pounds and can't climb up a hill that the dude can sit in negative thirty all day long. It's a different kind of tough. There's something there to be said about it. Yeah, it's it's all good, right. I mean, there's all these different types of hunting and it's all got its own fun and secretly crave you know, tree stand the hunting. Yeah, it's like my I love guilty pleasure. Yeah, I like to climb up there. And part of it is because I like quiet contemplation time time where I just sit and watch things and uh, and that's where glassing in the West, Aaron and I do a lot of glassing to where you just sit all day long and you just watch stuff through your buying. And that's that's also very it's similar feeling in terms of that. Yeah, you know, it's funny when I think when I'm like talking to people that haven't gone out West and or the other way around, there's two different, unique, really cool things going on when it comes to like not just the hunting aspect, but like the internal aspects. So I feel like when you're white tail hunting, just like you said, you get this opportunity which is very rare in today's crazy modern life. To be able to sit still and not have anyone asking something of you or talking to you. Just gotta sit, be still, be present, and you have time to think about you have time to unpack things that are going on in your life, or you have times just to do that. So that's having time to go within yourself very cool. On the other side of the thing, when you're a Western hunting in your spotting stalking, at least my experiences out west, because you're fully engaged in that moment, moving through the woods, checking the wind, where what's going on? Why am I stalking in here? You're every step you take, every action you take, you are fully one in that moment thinking about the next step, so you don't think about anything. You think about nothing in the outside world except for what's the very next thing I'm going to do. So it's true, it's it's really interest. There are too complete opposite sides of the coin in that way, but the far extremes of each side. So either you're in the moment or you're one available to go inside yourself, and it's very very cool either way. It's like when I'm elk hunting and we're bugling and we're calling an elk and it's just running gun from morning till dark four or five as in a row. I haven't even thought about my kids once, like like I mean, I'm it's especially if the conditions are snowy or cold or life and death at times where we're in the mountains and it's it's just h or it's raining hardcore. I mean, it's just it's just to suffer fest those times. Um, it's all about surviving, achieving that goal. You're you're you're focused on that one thing, toughing it out mentally, staying in the game and all of that. I don't think you and you do you you emails, not a thing, you know, pms whatever, messages, posting something, uh, you know your kids, uh, you know, swim practice. Like it's just none of it's on your radar at all. And I think it's really good to to unplug from life that fully. All Right, Before we move on, we're going to take one final short break for a word from our partners at the White Tail Institute of North America. And with fall food plot season coming very quickly, producer Spencer Newharth connected with one of white Tail Institute's food plot experts to get the low down on some of the best fall food plot options we can be considering this year. This week with White Tail Institute, we're talking to consultant John Cooner about their special blend of Imperial white Tail beats and greens which is designed to hold deer fall all the way through winter. The Beachs and Greens is a is a neat product. It is an all Braska product, but it's unusual and it's a blend of of multiple brask of rise that serve a number of purposes. The main ones are that they provide together attraction and food for deer from the fall all the way into and maybe through the dead of winter. The components are sugar beachs. Most folks know how attractive they are to deer when you plan them in the fall. It's got tall time turnip in it, which is a turnip variety of that the White Tail Institute developed six years specifically for deer. The tall Time turn up the foliage is for late fall through winter. It also has a kale variety in it that is unusual when compared to most kale varieties, and that's loose leafed UH is very attractive to deer. UH it's a vegetable cultivar that that does not grow on a tight head the way a cabbage does. And finally, there's the white Tail Institute for its well radish that maximizes the attraction over the long term by adding forage and tubers for later in the year as a secondary benefit the product because of the tubers produced by the radish and UH tall time tubers can actually improve this quality, especially of compacted soils, by drilling down even a couple of feet into the soil and making wide spaces to help water and air move UH and any tubers that remain after winter will break down the following spring and even improve the quality of soil by adding organic matter. But the main thing is it's built for attraction of deer all the way through fall and through the winter. If you'd like more info on White Tail Institutes forage products, check out white Tail Institute dot com, where they also carry some of the top supplements, attractions, and herbicides available. I want to talk. I want to talk about something that I think just based on talking with you and every time I've listened to you and I know some of the things you recommend and do. I think this is something that you probably think about a lot too, and you you you touched on it right there. And I think it applies equally in different ways, but equally to hunting out west or hunting white tails. To be very successful at it, mental toughness. And I think mental toughness is something that doesn't get a whole lot of talk when it comes to hunting. I mean, we we talked about where to hang my tree stand or how do we find where elk bed? Or how do I shoot better? All these like physical tangible things we have to do. But if there's any quality I see in in most of the really consistent successful hunters, it's those people have that mental toughness. I know you're a big reader, um so I imagine you're you're tapping to some things and some I know, some people that we share interested in have this. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, at the high level you agree with me? Is that is that is important? I think it's everything. And I think I've heard this a lot. I think it's it'll tie to I mean, all your success in life can be linked to self discipline and mental toughness and believe me. I mean there's certain things I'm real tough in and some things where I'm not. But in general, um, Stephen Ronella. I did a podcast on Meat Eater a while back with Denver Rourke. It's a great one. I really recommend check to check that out. And he talks about he talks about this. I think that, um, you know, the question is that that get gets pose on that podcast and erin. I've debated this a few times. Is it learned or is it genetic? You know, you're born with it or you I think it's both. I think there's a combination of both. I think that you we all have our natural inclinations regarding mental toughness or natural abilities physical abilities. Right, I can't dunk a basketball, you know, um, and so we all have we're all varied and so what we can do genetically, but we're also and I think your your mind and your capacity to be tough mentally goes with that. But we all have the ability to be shaped by circumstances as well, depending on how we decide to react to them. And I think that you might it's I absolutely believe that you can develop and and hone mental toughness. It's a muscle. Yep. Everybody's going to be born with it to a certain extent, naturally, of course, but wherever you're at, we've already established it's a valuable commodity. You want it, so so why not cultivated? So for me, I I've talked about this a few times. I followed whim Hoff. Um. He was on Joe Rogan. He's been on like a few podcasts, right, and he's the iceman um. And there's the whim Hoff method, which is a breathing method and you getting the ice water and you freeze to death. You know. The guy has a way of of breathing. And so he's met client climb Mount kilman jar O and uh yeah, a couple other in his in his shorts um and a pair of pair of boots. I think he might have done a barefoot too. Uh. He's done some crazy stuff he's on he's on the Joe Rogan podcast and he goes goes into a lot of detail there, but basically he's done some things through his mind that are pretty fascinating. Um And I won't bore people with it, but it's something to look into. But he talks about finding comfortable, comfort and discomfort, and he tells you that happiness is actually in the struggle in in not being comfortable and being cold when when you'd rather be warm, being hungry when you're you know, when you want to eat, and he and he talks about how the human body and psyche needs these acute stresses and needs these these moments too two to respond to and overcome to be happy and healthy. Well, I don't know about you, but climbing into cold water for five minutes or fifteen minutes or ten minutes the first thing you do when you client let's say it's it's thirty degrees outside and you're gonna go get inside of a cold lake. How long do you think you'll stay in there? Mark? Not very long. Yeah, it sucks like it sucks. The second you get in there, everything inside your brain is saying, get out, get out, get out, get out. This is awful. This is painful, this is awful, this is horrible. Everything is like, get out of the water. But you're like, no, no, we're staying here for five minutes. And you do that, and then you go back and you do it again. For saying you've done this, yes, yes, and get it. But you're doing this as an exercise a mental top can I can I mind over body and I mind over body. And by doing that, by by flexing that muscle in that way, you're able to who was an experiment? Yeah, and so my brother proving yourself you can do. My brother was born when I was about sixteen years old, so we didn't grow up together. But he got leukemia when he was like five something like that, and uh, spend a lot of time sick and playing video games. And during the time right when he should have been getting his butt beat, uh, he was maybe going to die from camp sir. So my parents really didn't. You know, he got away with everything anything he wanted. He just kind of got because maybe he's gonna be dead tomorrow, you know what I mean. So during those formative years he kind of got pretty darn spoiled. And I think there's a lot of discipline and character that he did not develop because he got spoiled. Um in a way. I mean, sure surely Chemo's no picnic. He still had to mentor yeah, but it was different, like he didn't get disciplined in the same way the rest of us did. As he got older. You know, he definitely admitted I don't have a lot of mental toughness, and uh, we were talking about this and he wanted to develop it. And he saw the whim off thing and he's like, I'm gonna do this. And as a kid who had a hard time like staying enrolled in school, and you know, he's setting his mind to something he quit after it got hard, you know, and this was like, I'm gonna do this. And I watched him over the course of six eight months every day with it. Started it out with just a few minutes in the water, and then it was five minutes, then it was ten, and then it was thirty. And he got to a point where and he made himself do it. Every day was a struggle. It never really got easier. It always sucked for the first bit, you know, but then it would feel good later throughout the day that he accomplished that. And I think I think you can through through small baby steps of making yourself do things that you don't want to do. Developmental toughness, you have Dave Rams he talks about He says something like kids do what they feel like doing. Grown ups do what they know is good. For him, because it's good for him. Right. My daughter is like, hey, Bryan, Dad, I don't want to go to I don't want to go on Dad, I don't want to go on this hike with you and Aaron. And I'm like, you know what, honey, I know you don't want to go on this hike with me, but it's good for you. And grown ups do things that are good for them even though they don't want to. And she's like, I hate it when you say that. It's true, honey, You're gonna do it because it's good for you, and you don't have the mental toughness right now to make yourself do it. So that's why you got a parent. I'm here to make you take care of yourself until you're old enough to have the discipline to do that on your own. That's how I developed character, you know. My dad's like, you're chopping wood today, and I'm like, I don't want to chop. All we do is chopping wood. He's like, I don't care. It's good for you, and you're gonna do it because I said so. And then later as a grown man, I'm like, we need wood. I'm gonna go chop it, you know, it's like, I don't know, and it's maybe sounds overly simplistic, but I think that you can develop it. I think it's it's your point. Um, it's funny. You probably follow Jocko a little bit. Yeah, so Jocko Willing. There was one of those early early episodes they were talking about this, him and uh mom blinking Echo, Echo, Charles, Echo Charles, and they're talking about mental toughness, and Echo asked Jockodi, how do you how do you do this? How do you build a month of toughes? Jocko just says, you do it. You decide, you decided to do it, and you do it. And that goes like, well, no, there's gonna be more. He goes back and says the same thing. But um. But in the end Echo actually had a good example of what he was doing. And I think it's it's um, it's a good way to go about and I think I apply this a little. I tried to apply this in my own life. And he gave a little example of just a very simple, very simple little thing. But he said, you know, he wanted to try to become more mentally tough because he felt like he didn't have that very much growing up wasn't raising a way he had to flex that MU pushed. So he said, this has been on this has been on his mind recently. So he was in the grocery store aisle and he had like a case of beer and something else heavy in his left hand, and he had gotten this line. It was a very long line, and he wanted to let that case of beer and the other heavy thing was left hand he wanted to put on the ground. And he had long ways ago and there was like lots and lots of groceries and the ladies car knew is gonna be here a long time. He wanted to start everything down. He said, this is he like took note though he was like mentally cognizant of this opportunity. He said, you know what, No, I'm going to use this as an opportunity to try to build mental strength. And I'm just I'm not gonna I'm choosing right now. I'm not going to set these down, no matter how long I have to wait, I'm not setting it down. And I have to see if I can do it, and I'm gonna do it. And it's a stupid little thing, but he did it and then once he did it, he said, hey, that was one way I can make a mental decision to push through an uncomfortable situation I usually wouldn't want to do, and in some tiny, zero point one percent way, he improved his mental toughness. And I think if you go through life looking for opportunities like that and saying like, look for me, I am not. I mean, I think everyone hits a wall physically when they're doing some type of exertion. But I'm not some kind of g I Joe type dude. But when I go and runs and stuff, I always envisioned at the end, you know, I'm I'm conked out. It can't go any further, hit that wall and you've got a hundred yards left to go or something. And every time I get that that, I always think of my head, this is that, This is where it's your mind. Man. This is if you're gonna Are you gonna kill that elk? Are you gonna get to the top of the hill. Are you going to be able sit in that tree stand when the big buck comes through? Are you going to be the hand of the cold And you just like have to go into your head and say no, I'm gonna push through it, going to overcome it. And every little time you can do that, I think it helps. I agree. I also think that it's very good to put be put in a situation where you have no choice. I was just talking to David Brinker and he was like, well, I really want to go on a solo moose hunt. I'm like really, He's like, yeah, where they drop me off for seven days and they come back and get you for ten days or whatever. And I'm like, that's that's rugged. That's but there's He's like, I'm like why, and he said, well, there's a certain amount of character, I think, and growth that comes from the fact that I have to make it like there's nobody else there, there's no quit And like Denver was talking about being in the Navy Seals and they're in Bud's training and there's a bell there and at any more you can walk over and ding the bell. How many of those guys would have made it through the training and not ding the bell If they were in a wartime situation and it was similar drudgery, but it was it was life or death, probably a lot of them would actually tough it out right. It's the ability to quit. Like Echo, Charles is holding those two things in his hand. He's like, well, I could put it down, technically put down anytime he wants, right, But if you're in a situation where it's like, well, if you put it down, something dire is going to happen, and you find what you're really capable of. And I think that often some of the best people I've met that that have this kind of resiliency, some of them were put in a situation where they were like, I had no choice. You're like, wow, you overcame, you did some stuff that was phenomenal, and they're like, yeah, if you'd asked me if I could have done that, I would have said no, I never could have done that. But I had no choice, and then I found out what I was really made of. Cameron Haynes to about running the Boston Marathon with Lance Armstrong. He's like, yeah, I'm running and running and running. I'm thinking I'm dying halfway through and I'm like, I can't do this. And he gets up by Lance and he's like, Lance, I'm dying here. I'm dying, you know, or he actually last asked Lance, how are you feeling? And he's like, I'm Evan. He's like, I'm having dying man. And so Kim was like, what, like, if he's dying, then then then the way I feel I'm dying. But he's gonna keep pushing, and so he's like, my goal was just to stay with him. And then he did a little longer than pretty see. He's like, no matter what, I'm not gonna I'll die before I stopped. And mentally he decided and he made it and he did it, and he said, uh, he said something about they ran the second half of the Boston Marathon faster than they ran the first half and that there's only like a couple of people in history that have ever done that, and it's him and Lance Armstrong and like a couple of others, and so that's phenomenal, right, And he thought at halfway and he's like, there's no way I can go any faster, and if I keep this pace up, I'll never make it to the end. And he's like, I just realized at that point that we're so much more capable of things than we think we are. And I always think about that, you know, he said. Marcus la Trail talks about how most people quit when they still have left or something like that. It's some crazy amount of And so I always think about that when things are tough and it's hard and I'm mentally grinding it out. I'm trying to make it to the top of the trail. Someday I'd like to be Aaron Snyder to the top. It's probably not gonna happen, but I'm gonna keep trying. I'm gonna still keep coming at it. And the thing of it is, sometimes I'm like, how much of its physical ability, how much it's mental toughness, how much of it is Aaron is just mentally tougher than me, and that haunts me right, Like I'm competitive. I don't like that. And so I'm like, dig deeper, call go harder, you know, drop if you have to. And there are times where I'm climbing at nine thousand feet behind Aaron and I literally have so little oxygen that I'm I'm about to black out, like I'm allowed about to, Like I see a little bit of stars and I'm like, so down little and then your oxygen comes back and uh, and and I resume hiking, but pushing it to that limit. I mean, I also think I'm not going to die, you know, it's just you know, you might fall down, but it's not a life and death situation. I think a lot of people blow up in their mind how difficult something is. It's like, well, yes it's hard, but no one you're gonna be around tomorrow, you know. Just pain. Yeah, I feel like I feel like that. It just comes into place so many times in hunting situations, whether it be dealing with bad weather on a bad country trip, or whether it be just dealing with seventeens eight hours sits in or oh where you don't see the buck you're after, and finally, damn it, I'm just on sleep, but I'm not smoking up before him. But you know what, that's the day that you would have seen him. I agree. What about this? Let me ask you this because I think this is very much tied to this whole discussion on mental toughness. This this thing I'm about to talk about negativity. I think that it takes an extreme level of mental toughness not to be negative goes hand in hand. I agree. That means trash talking somebody else in a negative way. That means like being a hater on the internet, all that stuff, to me is mental weakness. There's there's it's giving into it's and usually it's rooted an ego and pride, and it's usually done to belittle someone else to make yourself feel better. When I see someone who's hating on someone else, who's trying to achieve, trying to do good things, trying to make a difference. When I see that, I'm just like that negativity that hate, I think it's weakness coming out of their mouth. And mentally tough people often I think they they put that in check and they say, you know what, I'm not gonna be that guy. I'm gonna be this positive person that does positive things, and and that builds that mental toughness. And I think and then that also applies to actually being able to execute on um, you know how you can execute on not on anything, whether it be dealing with a tough situation in life, or whether it be you know, a social engagement or dealing with criticism, or looking at someone else and comparing yourself and say, oh man, he's doing really great. I wish I was doing that great. And the easy thing is to, like you said, get negative, say well, yeah, but there they got this hand or well yeah, but they're jerks or whatever you want to say. Um, but if you look at it the other way and you maintain that of attitude about whether it be a product, you're working on, a hunt, you're going on, that I think is like a developed a snowball effect. And if you can stay in the game, stay positive, staymentally tough, you put yourself in a position to eventually be in the places you want to be, whether it would be successful business, whether it be getting the shot, whether I mean, I think positive self talk, but positive treatment of others, they all go hand in hand. Because it's so easy to become to give into our natural instincts to be negative and hate on someone. And man, that's that's awfully prevalence in this hunting world. Well, I think in this social media world in general, right, Like it's so easy now to be a to be cruel or mean, or or or belittling. And again I think it that serves the weaker side of us. Um, if you want to start developing some mental toughness, don't give into that. Be positive. And you may not like something someone else produces, You may not be a fan of their their exercise, routine or how they shoot a bow or how you know, their comedy routine, whatever it is. But to me, it's like you cannot be a fan of that but also respect them and that other people do appreciate or or value them. Uh. So there's there's no Like I said, I just feel like it's it's it's it's giving into that base instinct that you have, that weak instinct. And if you want to develop some mental toughness, start with being positive when you when you feel that urged to be a little someone else. Yeah. Uh speaking social media, right, there's this tendency and it starts with TV two with regular media and then social media and that you know, going back to just the hunting world and we see so and so killed a big buck, or so and so got this great thing, or even just in life, so and so's business is doing so much better than mine or so and sos whatever. Um, and you start comparing yourself to others and and this is something I've personally struggled with, Like, um, I find myself constantly comparing myself and feeling bad about myself because I'm not doing as good as acts are. So and so did that. Why can't I do that? Why didn't I do that? What's wrong with me? And it's something I'm I'm aware of. I think step one is being aware of it. You can then you can then make it in you can make a change based on awareness. But it's it's like a natural thing that happens to me. And I think this affects a lot of people. Is like satisfaction with hunting. This impacts you know how much you enjoy going out there when you start getting putting pressure on yourself or looking at Facebook during November and feeling bad because this guy killed them and that guy killed and I can't I why can't I? Um? How do you deal with that? Do you do? You have those types of feelings sometimes you feel I think I think people would be lying if if they said they didn't in general, and I think we all go through that. Um. You know, it's a good question. I feel like, Um, the way that I deal with it is I focus on gratitude, gratefulness. Um. My wife went through cancer a couple a few years ago, and uh, it was it was a hard time for me. I in fact didn't handle it how I hoped I would. You know, it was a little I wanted to be that mentally tough guy. Um, and there were moments where I had breakdown, said I didn't see coming that I didn't think i'd have. So I think that what what what I found was, it's really tough when you're when you actually sit back and you're like, I am so thankful for what I have and for who I've met, and for my kids and my wife, and I'm so grateful for the health I have and the physical abilities I have a possess. And and you go through that list. You know, I mean, not be the richest guy, but hey man, I am so I love this truck. You know I could afford that. You know, you start going through it sounds silly, but you start going through all this stuff that you're grateful for. I think it's really difficult then to sit there and think about and dwell on all the things you don't have that someone else has that you don't have. And so I try every day to to wake up and two things. Be grateful. Be be truly grateful for for for everything. And also live for today, not not for tomorrow, not for I'll be happy when not for you know, as soon as I kill that elk everything is good. No, today today was awesome. Every day is awesome, and even days where I'm like, man, I just all I did was drive kids to to school and drop them off and man clean the house, and you know, it's like it's not what I wanted, and yet it was a great day, you know. And I think when you start approaching life from that perspective, Um, it's you stop doing the comparison thing. That's how I come combat and that's how I do it. Yeah, I think you're spot on. I mean, that's that's my antidote that I'm always trying to remind myself too. It's like, you can't be negative and if you if you take every time you're feeling negative like that and replace it with gratitude, the two things can't co exist. So you can if you seem like fear and faith, you know, I believe Sometimes I'm sitting there and I'm like, is Gritty Bowman like a waste of time? Or is Gritty Bowman really gonna go the distance? Am I making a difference? Am I adding value? And you start to have doubts, um, And I think it's very easy for us to focus on fears, right, and uh, and am I creative enough? Am I is this film becoming what I wanted to be? Uh? And when I focus on that, you're focusing on fear. But when I focus on I believe eve I can do this. I believe that this is making a difference. I believe this is important for me. I believe that I can make a film or or you know, interview or do some stuff that, read a book and share that that that's going to make a difference. And Uh, when I focus on that. And in the faith, faith and fear don't really go together. You know, a belief that you can do something or a fear that you can't, they're totally different. It's like it's like a shield almost Like I feel like we're gonna have negative things are gonna come at us. We are going to have fears are gonna come at us. And if you can learn to identify that and say, okay, here it comes. I know what's happening, I know what's going on in my head right now, and then you know, okay, now I put that shield. I'm gonna believe I'm going to be positive. It sounds so cliche, but the truth is that's what I think. And it's it's that like, this is life stuff, and then this is also some of the best hunting advice you're ever gonna get, I think, because if you can apply these mental um to rules I suppose to what you're trying to achieve in the woods are in the mountains, dude. It goes back to if you don't believe you're gonna be able to kill a blacktail buck, you know, on Saturday when you're heading out, then you're not gonna You're not going to decent your clothes the way you really should. You're not gonna wear the rubber boots, You're not gonna you're not gonna shoot your bow. There's all these things you're not gonna do because you're like, it's not gonna work anyway. Yes, it's so mental and and so when you have faith and you believe, then you do all these activities that lead to success. I just I think you have to combat fear with with belief and and if you if you don't um it's self fulfilling. You know, your failure is it can happen. And the thing is is again it goes back to, so it didn't work out, I'm grateful that I spent a whole day in the wilderness, like taking in creation, right, like taking in the world. It's it's an amazing place. So it all goes back to to you know, success in the mountains or in the in the woods. It's the same, Um, there really is. And I love talking about this stuff. Yeah you Um. I feel like we share a lot of similar reading interests. Um for people listening that want to learn a little bit more, just kind of engage in these types of discussions a little bit more with a book. Um, do you have anything you'd recommend? Yeah, um, I guess, And there's some of the same things that I would Yeah, you know. I did a podcast on Extreme Ownership with that Jocko Willing wrote and uh, that's one of our highest downloaded podcasts of all time. And it's really it's ironic because it's not a hunting podcast really, I mean, it's it's a flat out book review, right, And we talked about the book now it ties in Corey Jacobson and I did it and uh, Jordan Harbertson have Mountains and it was a good it was great. And then we did another one called Ego as the Enemy, and I feel like that was that book is so um important in our time right now, where you can just say whatever you want on the Internet and people are kind of out of touch with reality, and um, it's very easy to just I don't know, ego seems to just be a huge I just see it everywhere I turn, and I don't our culture kind of cultivates. The book was very enlightening for a lot of people. I mean, it's funny Corey Jacobson an Elk one on one He's like Ryan, I got halfway through the book and the whole time I was thinking, Man, this is just like my buddy so and so. Man, this is just like so and So. He gets halfway through the book and he's like, oh my gosh, this book has been talking about me the whole time. That was a huge eye opener. And I think that you can't combat pride and ego if you don't really see it. And so I think that's a hugely important book. So we covered both of those and that's why we did that. But the other books I really like. Um, Jocko. Willing just did a book review on Man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel. Haven't I've read that book at least twenty times, man searching for Meaning, Man's search for mean, Man's search for meaning, and a kid you not at least twenty times. It's a short read, but I have read it at least once a year for twenty years. And uh. He is a Nazi concentration camp survivor, a Jewish Holocaust survivor, and he talks about just Jocko approached it from a different angle than uh, than I've kind of ever thought. I thought about it in those terms, but you know, he's definitely approached it from a slightly different angle than me. Um, it was a great podcast to hear him go over it. But it's a that to me is a life changing book. Um. Then the other ones are like, you know when people ask me, how did you Gritty Bowman and blah blah blah. Well, a big part of that was, you know, the Total Money Makeover with Dave Ramsey and Financial Peace University, getting out of debt and learning to manage my finances better and saving and planning in the four hour work week by Tim Ferris. That was huge. That's how I negotiated. Eventually, I was working from home three days a week and only going to the office to which that allowed me to do Gritty Bowman on the side. So getting my finances in order, getting that career in order, and then chasing some dreams through four hour week work week. And then since then I've read a lot of what Tim Ferris has produced and good stuff. So those are some of the big highlights for me that that influenced, especially in recent times. But I have an Audible account, and I've had one since Audible launched audiobook account, and I get like four credits or two credits a month I can't remember now. I get two bucks a month basically for twenty bucks, so they're about ten bucks each, and then I buy an extra one here and there, but I probably I use my credits every month. I read or listen to an Audible two books a month, and now I've got hundreds of books in that inventory because it's been since it's been more than ten years since I've since I've done that, and so a lot of books out there. Man that are I say man, Dave Ramsey says, you're the same person today that you are twenty years from now, except for the books you read, read and the people you meet. I like Ryan HOLLI Ryan Holliday, who wrote the Ugo as the Enemy. He's kind of enabled me. It had been a bad way. Maybe people it's a good way. But I tell my wife and she shakes her head because he always talks about that. A book is a purchase that isn't you is never the wrong purchase because you are giving yourself the opportunity to walk in someone else's shoes, or to open the door into a different world, to see the world in a different way, to learn something. Every time you have an opportunity to learn something that's worth that's worth any dollar amount. I agree, And yeah, I think just always learning exploring these things. Another one he wrote, did you read The Obstacles Away? Yeah? I actually posted that on Instagram two days ago. Um, that was the one we we call we started what we call gritty book Club. I've seen that and uh, I'd love to Uh, I'd love to do. Can I be in your book club? Nobody else ever reads these books? And I Randy Newberg's in it now. He uh, he wants to join. We're gonna do a couple of books on conservation nice where we're he's he's he's, you know, read a ton of those books, and I'm like, you know, deficient in this space. So we're gonna read it and then talk about it. But the Gritty Book Club is just, um, we read a book, you know, me and a friend or a couple of friends, and then we do a podcast about it, and it's sort of just not really the core podcast, but um there. I love the idea of exposing people to We can talk about it for an hour, right hour and a half, two hour whatever it is. But when you when you sit down with that book in your own and you read, you know, a book that takes twenty five hours to get through, It's way more than I could tell you in fe hours and written in such a way that someone puts her their heart and soul into it, and I think it's that's really life changing stuff. So I like to I like, I like to do it. Um and uh So, Obstacles the Way is the next one that Corey and I we've finished reading it. Jordan and I are on it for a second time, so we're supposed to get together and discuss that one. But that one is really good speaks to a lot of things we've been talking about here the last minutes. What's your favorite fiction book, favorite fiction book. Wow, Okay, well I'm a nerd, so my feeling you know that, I know you know where I'm going with this. I love it. I love it. I love the Lord of the Rings, The Lord of the Rings. Every now and then I got to send you a text or like make fun of Jordan Harvardson Jordan knows us up and off the wisdom, but it's it's yeah, it's a little nerdy wizards, wizards and elves and everything, but it's the it's the hero's tale that we all live in some weird way where you know, it's phenomenal and there's there really is wisdom in there. And I know that might seem weird, but to read the book and there is wisdom and their lessons learned and creativity. Yeah, and it's it's a it's a it's pretty cool. I agree. I read, uh, I read. I asked nonfiction because I I think that it's hugely impactful as well. You know, I'm a big fan of Harry Potter too. I love Harry Potter. I've read those couple of times. I'd like to read it with my kids, and um, I think those stretch yourself too. So it's not all about nonfiction. Yeah, I'd love to read it. So, but we did work for Google. Did work for Google. You're one of those educated types like that college kids. I always thought that I somehow slipped through the cracks when I was working there. I just kept I was always waiting for someone to walk up, like Tatman the shoulder and say, hey, you're not to be here. We don't know how this happened. Somehow I made it through. But we're getting kicked out of our little outdoor studio here. Yeah, yeah, so we're gonna have to shut it down. But dude, and thank you. I just want to say thanks for having me on the podcast. It's pretty nat. I've been a big fan of all your work and what you've done for for a long time. I mean, you were the first person that did a podcast in the outdoor industry that I reached out to, and uh yeah, I just I really appreciate what you do and I'm glad I got to be on your show. We did right back at it. It's been really cool to see what you've been able to do and the the positive difference you're making. And if anyone's not already checking out the Gritty Bowman. You guys are doing great work. You should check it out, subscribe, listen, and um, they can find that anywhere. They can find the Wire Dump podcast right iTunes, pod Bean, Stitcher, YouTube. That's one thing that is a little different. Like I've done video episodes since we started. In general, you know, I don't, I don't. I most people just listen, but the video is out there for some folks, which is cool. If I have an attractive guest, the viewing goes up. You know, it's like a thing. It's kind of funny. There's a pretty girl on the podcast, and then all of a sudden, my views. Well, I've always wanted to be a video mine, but I live in country, back of the woods, corn Belt, and my internet is so bad I can't even upload video, let alone stream. Yeah, I'm having that problem to an evergreen, Um, just a pocket of rats. I end up going to the coffee shop a lot more than I thought. That's what I have to do a lot too. And then I pay for ridiculously expensive data plans from Verizon and use that it. Yes, so great time with this man, you appreciate it. Let's talk more, all right, and that's going to be it. Thanks for sticking around for what I believe it's been our longest podcast yet. But I hope you enjoyed, especially what we got to here towards the end. This topic of the mental side of hunting and life. I think it's very very important as something we typically don't think about, but it really can have a significant impact on your life when you start being mindful of that. So I hope you enjoyed it. I just want to give you another reminder, like I talked about at the top here, we're doing the live podcast next week July twenty one, down in New Orleans at the Quality Deer Management Association National Convention. Would love to see you guys there, so be sure to check that out. AM at the convention on July one, and then eight pm that night, we're gonna do a wire to hunt and meet up. I'd be awesome to see you there as well. So that's all for me. Thank you are listening. Big things to our partners at Sitka Gear YETI Cooler's, Matthew's Archery, Mayben Optics, the white Tail inst to North America, Trophy Ridge and Hunt Terra Maps, and of course thank you all so much for listening. I hope you have an amazing day and amazing week, and until next time, stay wired to Hunt.