00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This episode number one forty tay the show. We are joined by Kip Adams of the Quality Deer Management Association, and we're discussing the latest deer harvest trends and current issues impacting deer and deer hunters, such as changing habitat, disease, urban deer management, and much much more. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sitko Gear, and today's show, I'm joined by Kip Adams of the Quality Deer Management Association, and as he's done for us the past few years, Kip is going to share his annual State of the white Tail Update, and by that I mean keeps going to share with us a variety of updates related to the latest deer harvest numbers and trends from across the country, as well as some insight into the most pressing issues related to deer and deer hunting currently, such as white tail habitat degradation trends, and faun recruitment, the latest on diseases such as e h D and c w D, and much much more. It's really gonna be an interesting conversation, I think, and it shouldn't nicely set the stage for us for the rest of two thousand and seventeen. I think it'll put us in a position where we're all kind of have a good idea of the state of the resource as we kick off this new year and start planning our our deer hunting projects and hunts and all that good stuff. So, since we are without my trusty coast Dan today, we're going to quickly bring Kip on here with us. But first we briefly need to pause to thank our partners at SITK Gear for the support of this podcast. And as we've done the past few weeks, we're back with Jessica de Lorenzo, who was one of the female hunters involved in design and testing the new women's line of clothing from Sica, and today, to wrap things up, I asked jess to tell us just a little bit about what it felt like to finally, you know, to have put in so much work to create this woman's gear and then to finally see it all come together in the real world. It was pretty exciting of the first time that I got some phototypes to test um seeing the ideas that we had come up with in the beginning stage of the brainstorming and having them in a physical form, and the first couple of times that I went out hunting and it was just like this Eureka moment, like it doesn't finally happening and everything just is coming together and it's worked out really well. We're really really really proud of it and excited the way it's turned out, because, UM, we just wanted it to be, uh like, no frills, We wanted it to be a tool, and we wanted to be functional, the same as what they offer currently for men um. So to see that transition into the women's functionality and systems has been awesome. And did any moment stand out to you during this whole process by sleep afterwards? UM, I think the one that pops out immediately is I was able to go on Antelope Spot and stock with bo with Amanda Caldwell and we were field tasting some of the women's big game gear for that hunt, and it was really tough and exciting and it was successful for me and just be able to share that with man did who I'm great friends with, and be able to use some of the products that we helped design was really special. So if you'd like to learn more about the women's gear or sign up to pre order some, you can visit sit kid gear dot com, slash Women's And now back to the show and our conversation with Mr Kip Adams. All right with me now on the line is Kip Adams. How are you? Kip? I'm doing good? Mark, how are you doing today? It's good, I'm doing well. I'm I'm excited to have you back. You are? You are think a three time guest now on the podcast. So so we appreciate you continuing to h to come along for this crazy ride. Thank you for joining us a flute, It's my pleasure. I always enjoyed talking with you. Yeah. So since last time we talked, UM, I'm curious, how how did you twos six hunting season go? It was great? Uh, hunt out of a traditional camp here in northern Pennsylvania, and we arguably had the best year we have ever had. And that said a lot because we've had a lot of good years. Um. Part of it, though we had six kids that were between ten and twelve years old hunting not a camp, and uh, that alone made it a tremendous year, So lots of fun to have that youth. Um, actually there were still six kids. They shot uh four bucks and a bear, so they did really well. How big of a property is this that this group's hunting. We have very fortunate as my family farm that my grandparents put together a long time ago. It's seven dred acres total and we have anywhere between usually fifteen adults and then a bunch of kids that hunted each year. So this year we had about twenty different people hunting on it, and so we were very lucky to have that. We know in many cases we put a lot of a lot of hunting pressure on us, so we have to be very smart about how we hunt it. But it's very important to us to to share that property with friends and family. So uh, it's quite a hunting tradition that we have there and certainly looking forward to pass that to the next generation. And uh, six young ones at camp this year made a big smile on a bunch of people's faces. So hopefully we're going to pass that tradition on and keep it going strong. Yeah, that's awesome. That's great to have that many new people coming into it and young folks getting involved. Um. In addition to that type of youth participation, was it a good year from you know, harvest standpoint, management standpoint, any of those types of things. It really was. We typically on the shoot one or two bucks a year. Um. We have before we tell our kids to shoot whatever they're allowed and highly encouraged to shoot any buck, and the adults all follow other guidelines where the degger has to be at least three and a half years old or have a sixteen inch inside spread. And we have some guys in our camp that are glad to shoot any three year olds. We have some guys that typically don't shoot three year olds that we want them to get a little older. And uh, we're involved with the Cutium Cooperative, which means, you know, many of our neighbors are doing very similar things. So any given year, we we truly have the chance to harvest deer that are three, four or five, six or even seven years old. So it's it's worked out extremely well for us over the years. Huh. And in addition to those bucks that I told you that our kids killed and actually one of those I use killed killed a really nice three and a half year old buck. Um. But in addition to those, we killed three other bucks that were three and a half I'm sorry, two other bucks that were three and a half and a four and a half year old. So we typically shoot one or two bucks that are three year older, and then this year we killed four of them for really nice deer that were three or four years old. So an outstanding your forest by all accounts. Now, would you would you say that's that's uncommon for the area. I mean, when I typically think of Pennsylvania, that's one of the states. You know, I'm stereotyping here, generalizing here, but it's one of the states that traditionally has not been the best opportunity state for older age class bucks. I know that's starting to change. Is that? Is that what you guys have seen too? Has this been a big change for you over recent years? It has certainly been changeding in Pennsylvania across the state, UM and our part of the state. We started this cooperative about a decade ago, very similar to too many of the cooperatives that you have in Michigan, and there's about two thousand acres where almost every landowner joins each other that that protects younger deer and and some people have even more restrictive buck harvest regulations than we do. So if you take a look at the neighborhood that two thousand acres, UM, and we had about an average year, which most accounts is a very very good year. Um. It turned out that our camp shot a couple more bucks this year than we typically do. Some of our neighboring camps shot one or two less, so um. So for our camp individually, it was exceptional for our neighborhood. UM, it was right on par was what we typically have been shooting. And you know we shot um do here that we're eight and a half years old bucks semana manual I aged. Our neighbor shouted here last year that that was nine and a half years old. Um a buck. So we because of the cooperative nature of it, and I'm sharing information and the relationships developed across property lines. Um. Even though what we get to do it is not the norm everywhere. UM, it is the norm for for us in our neighborhood. You know, because of all the cooperation among the landowners. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. It's been exciting to see this, the whole coop idea spread across the country. Like you said, there's a lot of that happening here in Michigan, which has been nice to see. And it seems like, at least anecdotally from everything I hear from people involved in those and I've been loosely involved in some, um, it definitely seems to make a real meaningful impact. I mean, are you seeing that from a high national level when you're looking across the you know, the qutum a membership in different co ops? Is is it really making as big of a difference as it seems to be just what I'm seeing locally. Oh? Absolutely, And and we're a perfect example of it. You know, we are extremely lucky to have the acres that we do. Um. You know, that's much larger than many hunters are able to have. And if it was just us going out of alone, you know, we wouldn't have anywhere near the opportunities that we have today, you know, because of the cooperative nature. So you know, as you start looking at smaller properties, those co operas become even more important, you know, and we have some neighbors that have small acreages. You know, we have some neighbors that that have you know, more acres than us. But there works because of all of the folks you know, getting together and doing this and so um, we are very fortunate. I see the same thing happening in other parts of Pennsylvania because people involved the cooperatives and uh, you know, I'm very lucky to get to work around the country, so I see the same thing happening, you know, Northeast, the southeast, the Midwest, the upper Midwest. You know, there's no boundaries to where a cooperative will work well or not. It truly can work any place that white tails live. It's just a matter of you know, the hunters and the landowners getting together of their neighbors and you know, talking it through and you know, having handshake deals and started to develop a little bit of a friendship or a relationship, which then greatly compounds into the deer hunting in and what they're able to do. So anything about it is too you know, they often start small and they start slow, and now, which is fine. You know, even two people working together can can start to make a difference, and then over time you get another neighbor will throw their twenty acres in, and now the guy just down the road a little bit will throw his or her forty acres in, and you know, suddenly man made some friends that you never had before. You know, your deer hunting is better, and it's a it's a whole new ball game. And you know, you guys lead the North Michigan with regard to co ops, Texas as the leaves the South, and they've been just doing those so much longer than everybody else. And you know, people think of Texas as these big lane ownership patterns, you know, and kind of they go out by themselves, but that's not true at all. You know, they had co ops there a long time. They call them associations rather than co ops, but it's exactly the same thing. So that's even with some of these larger properties they have, they're they're able to be so successful. Um, you guys lead the north of that, and now there's many other stage trying to catch up to you. And I think that's a very good thing. Yeah, Cutium cooperatis are definitely one of the hottest things going right now, and I think I'm very very bright sign for the future of hunting. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. UM. And speaking of you know, I think most people listening know who you are kept and they're familiar with the Quality Deer Management Association with who you work for. UM. But I guess, just in case, just in case of some people that aren't familiar, can you just give us a very you know, a quick rundown of what the cut you May is all about and maybe what you guys are doing now today? I mean, has the cut you may have your goals or your focus areas, or the way you go about things has that changed at all? Is cut May in two thousand seventeen different than maybe the qut may we knew five years ago or anything like that? I'm sure. I'm a wallet biologist and the director of communication or side of the director of Education and Outreach for k d M A. KUMA is a national nonprofit wildlife conservation organization, and we specialize in in information and outreach to two hunters and landowners and natural resource professionals. You know, we have this information that we want to share with people to help them do better stewards of our natural resources and have more successful hunting seasons. So that that's kind of it in a nutshell. So if if you're a deer hunter, you belong with q d M A, you know we we are the organization we want you here to be able to give you more information to make it better for you and then and have you share that with others. So and as far as are we are we different. Um. We certainly are an education based organization. UM. So that part hasn't changed, but some of our focus has in large part because many of our early goals we've accomplished. And uh q MAY was founded in and at that point the whole qd M philosophy was brand new, and our founder actually married some principles from Texas with some association from Australia, some work that he had done to really put deer hunters together. Because up at that point, you know a lot of the WALA professional said you can get duck hunters together, and you can get small game hunters together on something you know, or turkey hunters, but you can never get deer hunters to agree on anything. Well, Joe found a way to make that happen. So Joe Hamilton's founded the q d M A and then at that time even a lot of Wallace professionals did not believe in the q d M philosophy, did not believe in protecting young bucks or harvesting analysts here, that couldn't convince hunters to do that. So we spent much of the early years just proven that, hey, you know what qt M works, and you can get deer hunters to work together. So you can fast forward to that's the first year in the US that hunters shot more antalysts deer than that bucks. So that was a monumental step forward with regard to deer management and you know, and being good stewards. Then you fast forward a little farther and suddenly, now, well, you know what, we're protecting more yearling bucks were We're getting more bucks into the older age classes, we have more balanced age structures, and and two years ago we actually harvested more bucks that were three and a half are older than those that were just one and a half. So, I mean, that is absolutely amazing today, and it happened again this past hunting season. So you know, we've been monitoring this since nine and nine. About sixty of all the bucks shot we're just one and a half years old. First seven hours, you know, seven out of ten bucks. If you fast forward today, it's about a third. It's dropped all the way down to thirty three or thirty four percent, and a bigger percentage are three and a half are older, so and actually less past season, for the first time ever, hunters shot more bucks that were three and a half are older than those bucks that were just one and a half or even those bucks that were just two and a half. So this is very remarkable because there's a lot of states that had restrictions to protect the healing bucks twenty three states to be exact, but there's a many other states that have, you know, very active public education programs you have to encourage people to pass younger bucks. So what that means is, okay, we're passing these jailings, you know, and and even five or ten years ago, a lot of people then just shot him at two and a half years old. What we see now is, you know, they're making it to at least three and a half at record numbers, and there's not a single state in the country that has regulations designed to protect bucks or two and a half. So that means is the hunters are willingly passing an entire another age class of deer that they could legally kill just because they have seen benefits of hunting older bocks, you know, a photographing older box swapping tactics with there were these older deers. So it's a very different place in deer management and it's a pretty exciting one to be and hunters have really shown their desire to want these older deer in their willingness to pass legally harvestable deer to be able to get to that. So that's a at a cool place r right now. So because of that, our focus changes a little bit to providing new information on this changeing game of deer management as well as rather than trying to prove that qd M works because everybody knows that. Now, make sure that we are broad enough on our educational outreach to bring in more hunters that that may not know about us or you know, may not be landowners. And that's fine. You know, some people think that qd M A is just a landowner organization and that's not true at all. A full third of our members don't own any land. So we need to make sure that we do a good point telling deer hunters, Hey, if your a deer hunter, we want you with us, and we have information that can help you to make sure that nobody feels excluded from from our organization. Yeah. So, speaking of the information that you provide every year for I don't know how many years it's been now, it's been quite a few. You guys have been putting together something you called the white Tail Reports, and UM, the last two years now we've had you on the show to tell us about that year's white Tail Report and kind of what the state of the white tail is in the country. And that's kind of what my hope was for us to do today was get the high level overview of where are things right now? What are some of the current issues and trends? Um. But I guess before we dive into that kit, can you just provide us some context as to how you and Matt and the team put together the white Tail Report? How do you how does this all come together? Sure, we start doing this in two thousand and nine. That was the first one, and the idea came from, Hey, you know, we have all this information that we can get to our members and we're sharing with folks. But there's a lot more here that you know that media and others would love to have access to that. We really had an opportunity, unlike most other organizations, to to be able to disperse this information. So we started with that. And the cool thing about it is every fall, late summer and early fall, we do a survey to every single state wilife agency and every provincial wallife agency UM to provide information for the upcoming year's report, and it always includes information on the previous year's harvest. So we take a look at total numbers of bucks and analysts are harvested, break it out into age structure of that breaking and so then we can take that and put all of it into a harvest per square mile, so we can really compare, you know, state by state or province by province with what's going on. We look at all of that by weapon type to see, you know, who's shooting more deer with bows versus muzzleloaders versus rifles UM. And then we also ask questions on the most pertinent things that are going on in the deer world right now, so kind of the biggest issues, the biggest threats, the biggest opportunities out there. So we break our report really into into three chapters. The first part is the harvest from the year before, so state by state and province by province statistics to look at. The next part is, you know, the current trends and threats, what's really going on right now. And obviously us change each year, so we make sure that we're up to date with it. And it's really like providing a state of the Union address, you know, to deer hunters. Here's what the state of the Union of the White Tale world. And the last part of our report now is is qt amazing and report to discuss the different programs we have and share information on folks. So the nice thing about it is, you know, much of all of part one and much of part two comes straight from our state wildlife agencies. And when we started this, you know, the states provided the data and okay, here we go. But what we found, and since we've been doing it this long, you know, the state agencies we received lots of compliments from them because you know, they receive a lot of the same questions from their constituents. So our wildlife leaders use that to compare how their state is to others and to share information with people, and and we strongly encourage and hey, you know, if if you have a question that you want to ask or see how your state compared about let us know, we're glad to include that each year on on our State and Provincial Agency survey. So it's a good relationship between US and UH and the state and provincial agencies, which is very nice. Hunters love it because then they can see how their state compares to others around them or within the region. And the whole idea is to just make it as helpful as possible to two hunters and and that's a resource professionals. So speaking of your relationship with these state wildlife agencies from the hunter standpoint, I feel like there's always this interesting dynamic between hunter hunters and that agency and the regulations um that are put in place and all these different things. From your unique perspective, UM, what is the state of our state wildlife agencies? Do you feel like? And I know this this requires a massive amount of generalization because there's so many out there, but you know, how are these state agencies doing when it comes to you know, I guess, managing relationships with hunters and recording and tracking all this data and these different regulations. I mean, this is an impossible question. I'm realizing it as I'm saying it. But but from your angle, what are you seeing there? Are are we on the right path? Are there anything that concern you? Are there any things you're particularly excited about? Um? What are your thoughts there? Well? I think there's two big trends going on within that in that role. But one of them is our wildlife management programs have never been more political than they are right now. And that is not a good thing. That that is not a good sign. Um. You know, when I started, and I've been a wilefe biologists for more than twenty years now. When I started, UM, science carried a lot more weight in all of these discussions, and it didn't necessarily carry the day every time, but it really carried a lot of weight. And that is increasingly becoming not the case today today. I have seen time after time and state after state, you know, where the science didn't carry any weight at all, you know, and decisions were entirely political. Um, from season dates you know, to season structure, to analyss harvest recommendations either increased or decreased from what the biologists wanted, you know, because of political whims. So so that that that is not good. That is not a brave sign at all for our future. UM. The second half of that and another trend that I think it's very positive is hunters have never been as engaged with other agencies as they are today. And that is a really really good thing. Historically, our state wilife agencies gave us our hunting seasons and rules and here it is and and hunters took it and lived with it and UH and today hunters, unlike at any other point, have much more involvement with season setting UH, deer management plan UM preparations. So so that's good. You know, they get to talk with the agencies. The agencies are engaging hunters at record levels and and that just makes it that much better because historically hunters were a much bigger piece of the pie for our wildlife management programs. But today we are more urbanized than we've ever been in the history of the United States. So what that means is much more of our wild life decisions are being made, you know, in the cities and in suburbia rather than rural America, you know, like we often think of from a honey end. So there's just many more stakeholders involved in while life decision making today. And thus because of that, as hunters, you know, we need to make sure that we are represented. So the fact that hunters are more engaged with the agencies is a very very good thing. And uh, you know that there are some agencies that do a much better job of that than others. And if you look at many of the issues today where states really need to help in supportive hunters, the state wilife agencies that have been engaging hunters for a longer period of time have much better public support and working relationships and uh, and it's very evident, and and so that's a good thing, you know, and hunter our agencies, in my opinion, need to engage hunters at even higher levels to make sure that they do have that support moving forward, because there's some pretty tricky issues out there that we're having to deal with today. Yeah, so back to the first point you made about the plus sization of wildlife management, where does the where does that blame get placed? Is that people within these wildlife agencies are allowing themselves to be influenced by politicians or is this like above their pay grade and the politics are coming from above and they're being forced on the agencies saying hey, no, I don't care what you're telling me to do it. This is what we're gonna do. Where is the where is the onus put there? It's the ladder of what you just said. It's from above the agencies, and so they're being told what to do, what they can or cannot say. So, you know, in most cases our agencies, dear biologists, you know, there is mad about what's happened, you know, as the average hunter is, because they're being told either to stand down or the recommendations are not going to be followed. You know, they're going to be dictated from above, and is in many case not even just you know, the executive director of the agencies above that you know, coming to them from the Board of Commissioners that oversees the agency or you know, somewhere along those lines. So yeah, it's not it's not our do by just buy any means? So what's the Is there a solution there? I mean? Do do hunters that a contingency have them have enough influence to influence that next run above? If if we were to start making a ruckus, is that something that is achievable or is this outside of our realm of influence. No, I think it absolutely is, and that's really where a lot of this is coming from are you'll see, and it's often worse in states that historically have not engaged hunters at a very high level. Um, it's many hunters and groups that are just so dissatisfied or upset with their lack of opportunity to to be engaged that have gone to their legislators. And that's what's driving a lot of this. So just as you know they're driving it kind of been a bad way. You know, the majority of hunters who are you know, very good stewards of our resources and you know an upstanding individuals, you know, we can do the same same thing and put that power back in our biologists hands. And in some cases, um, you know, it's it truly is another another industry, another faction out there, you know that has a bigger lobbyists than than the wildlife group. But for the most part, you know, there are there are more hunters than almost any other group out there. So you know, if we work together, we certainly can can put that power back in our trusted agencies hands. And the really thing that's held holding back is some of the agencies you know that have not had good relationships with hunters in the past, UM, really need to mend those and most are most have done a very good job over the last five or ten years mending a lot of those relationships and trying to improve them. And uh so we just need to see more of that. And uh you know, I think the longer that we worked, or more hunters work with their agency, the better that relationship comes. I think you'll see a return of some more of that science based management, which is very much needed. So fair to say that pointing the finger and getting pissed at the wildlife agency most of the time isn't necessarily the best course of action for US hunters. Maybe more times it's how do we engage with them and better understand where they're coming from and help out in that stand From that standpoint, yeah, I'm an optimistic person, so I always tried to take that approach of hey, you know, even if we haven't got along well in the past, let's let's let's work together on this now. Um, Because there's a lot of people out there who are not for hunting or our wildlife management. So as hunters, we and our agency managers, you really need to stand together on these so um, I encourage hums. Hey, you know, even if you don't have a good history within your local biologist or your agency, you don't continue to try to make that happen. You will continue to be positive and be a productive part of the conversation. You know, too many times I've seen hunters, you know, who are upset with the agencies, who who then take every opportunity possible to kick them or degrade them, you know, and that doesn't help anything, because is it anything that you do in life, And this is especially true with Walleffe management. Um, your view versus your your agency's view there still comes down to a relationship there on whether you know the people working for agen you like you as an individual or not. And if they dislike you, it really doesn't matter how good your ideas are, you're not all that likely to have them implemented. So you know, I encourage you. Hey, you know, it's good to make friends with your biologists and your agency. And you don't have to agree on everything for sure, but you know, at least let them know that, Hey, you're here to help. You're not here to make the problems any worse or to kick them. You know, that doesn't serve anybody good, even in the in the wildlife world. Yeah, it's amazing how much you see that kind of thing, especially, you know, with anything these days of social media. The the villainization of some of these agencies sometimes is, I don't know, it's it's interesting to see how people it's very easy to point fingers, right, and it's very easy to make assumption is about different organizations or agencies, motivations or reasons for doing things. Um. But oftentimes, at least in my opinion, it doesn't seem to do a whole lot of good to just say these guys are evil and they're trying to ruin our hunting because of A B and c. Um. That doesn't seem to be too productive. More so, it's usually trying to, you know, like you said, work with them, listen to them, offer your suggestions, help out, or engage in some type of way that's productive, versus just screaming and pointing fingers. But that's I guess, uh kind of the way in the world these days. Unfortunately. Um. Now you're right, you know, and I'm privy to some closed door meetings and some high level meetings with some of these agencies, and you know, and I know I've heard you know, dear bods may just to say, man, you know, we agree with you or you know, we would love to do this. You know, we're being told to do you know, be rather than a or whatever the case may be. You know, And so publicly this is our agency stands. Well, then a hunter will hear the stands, and if it's against what they want, they criticize them, you know, and I'll tell luck, you know, he or she this you must may think exactly like you, you know, take into account that you're coming at this from a hunting in you know, particularly very emotional and whereas our agency folks, yeah, they have to determine or look at, you know, the biological value, but they also have to do with, you know, the social and political value of managementer and you know, sometimes that gets in the way of what you know they want to do, or certainly the way of what you want to do. But continue to try to work with them and be helpful at every opportunity, and that's just much more likely that you'll end up is something productive in the end. Yeah, yeah, true. So so let's move on to the white Tails State of the Union, like you mentioned, and at the beginning of your white Tail Report, as you mentioned earlier, you guys really focus on harvest numbers, harvest trends, um where do things stand today? As far as what you guys are able to put together for this two thousand and seventeen report. What are some of the big takeaways. Well, we're starting to see a return of the buck harvest in many states, which is a very good thing. You know, we had a sliding carvest for a few years in some regions and for a long time in the Midwest. We're starting to see a recovery of that in some places, which is very encouraging. The antalysts harvest continues to decline. We're at about a decade long decline now, almost down from where we were. And uh and as soon as I say that, I know people can think, oh God, this is bad. And you know, this is one place where a lot of agencies get themselves in trouble because they just tell whether the harvest is up or down, and then hunters immediately think if it's up, things are good. If it's down, it's bad. Well, it's not necessarily the case, particularly from the analysts, because there are a lot of agencies that now whose deer numbers are much more in line with what our habitats can support, so they will remove in some antless harvest opportunity because we don't need to shoot as made as we did. So if that, you know, is the case, then a lower harvest in some states can be a very good thing. So if you really have to take a look at your specific example to see is hey, is this reduced antless harvest? Is this good or bad for the future. So even though it is down in many cases, that marks a very positive impact because of your herbs are are just in the better shape today, are a better place than they were in the past. So can I jump in really faster, kip Um, Absolutely so. As you mentioned over the past few years when we've had this kind of discussion and a lot of there's been a lot of talking to media over the last two or three years about this decline in in harvest, the decline in populations. There's a lot of concern, you know, what's going on. The white tail heard all of a sudden is is you know, possibly facing a crisis here, and so there's some of that are looking at this as a crisis, and then there were some that are saying, well, maybe this is like a course correction. Maybe we were way above what was really healthy and in balance with what these ecosystems can handle. Maybe this is that balance we're correcting back down to a point of balance. And in hindsight now now that we're looking back on it, um, these past few years, from your perspective and in the perspective of maybe maybe you know agencies and whoever else you're previous to have these kind of conversations with, do you feel now looking back on this, was it a correction and we've reached a point of balance or was it actually a crisis and we've just now stabilized. Which is it? I do not think there was a crisis at all. Um. I think that we were seeing a change for a number of different reasons. Um. You know, things impact on our deer herds. But I don't think what in most places any way, we were not at crisis level. UM. I do firmly believe that the average deer heer today is much healthier, uh than it was a decade ago, both from a numbers perspective, in an age structure perspective. Um, I think that we certainly have an issue today with with some of our farm recruitment rates that continue to decline, something that we really need to keep an eye on. But overall, our age structures are much better today than the past, and a lot of deer herds are a lot closer to being where they should be relative to the habitat. So so that's a very good thing as well. So I always encourage our agencies and anybody you know, before you just start saying this year's harvest was upboard down, talk about a relative you know, to what you wanted, because every agency should have a target doe harvest each year, and they should be able to calculate the target target buck harvest, so they should talk about it relative to what they expected to happen or what they wanted to happen, rather than just upward down. And I know that the news of the media you know, will report this was you know, a little bit up or a lot upper or whatever. But as hunters, we need to be smarter than that. We can't just look at up or down and think good or bad. We need to take the next step and say, okay, let's see you know, is this down a good thing or is it a bad thing? Because everything is site specific, so hunters can definitely be a little bit smarter from that in Yeah. So, so it sounds like the decline in doll harvest was an intended um, an intended result across some places. But you mentioned that buck harvest was on the way back up. Um. Do we have any idea of why that might be the case? Why that the recent trend down maybe has stopped now? Has there been any changes that you think might it be you know behind that? Yeah? I think so. And and all of the harvest data in our two thousand seventeen report comes from the two thousand and fifteen into sixteen deer season. And the reason for that is we published a report in January of each year, so we published it before you know the existing deer seasons is done. Um. You know there's seasons are run through January and even into February and some states. So all of the data that we talked about here, it's from the two thousand and fifteen into sixteen season because it's the most recent season where you have complete data that you can analyze. And I think from that, what why we had to buck harvest increase. UM agencies. You know, we're monitoring and seeing that the buck harvest was declining. Um, we had a couple of really bad hamorrhagic disease years within the last decade, so that by agencies taken a look at that, accounting for it. They have manipulated some of the analysts harvests moving forward such that if they were in an area where you know what we really do need to say some dear, they've made changes such that they can protect more antlers to do and allow some of those three herds to recover a little bit. So I think there was you know, a few factors like that that led into it, and almost all him intentional by our agencies, you know, to help correct that buck harvest decline. So we're starting to see, uh see that recovery. And the really cool thing about it is it's the buck harvest total as all antler bucks. So we have a recovery in antler bucks, but then also record numbers of them that are three and a half are older, so it's not like we have a recovery and but they're all one and a half. You know, we have very very good age structure and an increased harvest, you know, so that's a tremendous wind win for hunters. Yeah. So here's something that I've heard some people talk about kind of anecdotally, and I'm curious to see if you've heard of anything like this on a larger scale. Um. You know, in the years of like two twelve and two thirteen, there was there was a lot of e h D outbreaks across certain areas of the country, particularly some spots in the Midwest, and you know, when that happened, there was large scale die offs in local areas of a lot of bucks. Um. And the thought, though I think a lot of people had, was Okay, so there's been a significant reduction some of these older age class bucks. But for the bucks that did survive because of reduced competition for food, they're going to be much more likely to be able to have a lot of access to great nutrition and a better chance of reaching older age classes and being more healthy, you know, possibly reach their full genetic potential from a whole bunch of different standpoints, including potentially antler size, different things like that. Um, have you heard of anything on a larger scale. Is that something we're sort of seeing as we get into this twousan fifteen sixteen season, we're seeing some of these deer that are now four years old UM or something like that, that have lived in that post e h D outbreak world where they have better access to habitat and now we're getting a healthier UM, more genetically reaching their potential deer herd well that that certainly can play a factor. If you know the number of deer that died in an area, we're large enough at it, the remaining deer had a big jump in amount of nutrition that's left. So so did that happen I don't know, it probably did in some areas. UM. That certainly can happen through you know, the HD die off or just good deer herd management. UM. I would guess that that certainly played a role in that M Is it the major role? UM? I think there's a lot of other habitat work and herd management work going on right now. You don't have to help make sure that deer get abundant, high quality nutrition. So I think that probably had a bigger role in it. But the fact that there were fewer deer UM certainly plays right into the herd manager part of the mark. So I think they probably want hand in hand and with what you were asking, and certainly allowed for more food for those bucks and the remaining doors than remaining balls. So that's just if everybody can get a little more to eat, particularly a little more high quality food, let's just do it all across that deer herd. Yeah, so you mentioned phone recruitment and that that's not trending in the right direction, and um, what are you seeing there? What's the latest there and why is this still happening and what's that means. I don't know if everybody understands why fund recruitment rates are important and what that means for the long term future of a deer herd. We we monitor fund recruitment rates very closely because that is one of the best measures of a productivity of a deer herd. And what the faun recruitment rate is. It's not the number of fetuses inside a pregnant dough or it's not the number of fonds that hit the ground in the spring or early summer. It's the number that are alive day one of your deer season in the fall. So it takes into account, you know, the number that are born in the spring but then we see how many of them make it to be about six months of age, you know, and are alive in the fall. And from a hunter's perspective, that's what's most important because that's a measure of the health of the deer herd from a reproductive standpoint. And you know, how good is the habitat. You have to provide good finding cover, etcetera. And food for the dough to feed that fall to allow it to not just be a day or two old, but to be six months old, you know, and enter the fall population. Well, if you if you back up a couple of decades, it was pretty close to one fond per dole and uh you know when people think, man, those have twins, so you know there's a lot of fons. Well, in reality, you know, across the US, the average recruitment rate, you know, it was just under one phon per dole if you back up about twenty years. And that's because you know, fons get eaten by bears and coyotes and bobcats, and they can hit by cars and you know, they drown and they die and there's lots of things that kill them. So if you started with just under one phon per do twenty years ago. If you fast forward to now, it's down to like point five nine fons per do. So what that means is for every dough out there in the fall, you know, there's just over half a font. So that's not man you could and it's certainly a lot less than it hasn't a bat. And that's the thing that really to watch is you know, what does this trend do over the last decade or last two decades, And uh, it's almost in a free fall in some places. And obviously the number of falls being recruited is a direct result of you know, how healthy are those deer you know, those doughs getting enough good food to feed them, and how good is the habitat to protect them from you know, dying either of manutrition or or predators or whatever. So as hunters and managers, we want very productive deer heads. And the most or the way to have the most bucks in an area is to have the most funds born and then survived to fall, because approximately every other fond born as a buck fun so they have most bucks. Is to have the most fonds be recruited into the deer herd because in the next year they have the first set of anilers. So it's a very different situation if you're recruiting about one fond per do versus if you're recruiting point six fons perduct, very very different. So it means a lot less bucks being introduced into those deer herds. Um, it means a lot less aniles lest deer that the average hunter can shoot, so it's less meat for the table. So, you know, and some people point to finger right at predators, and in some cases predators are having a big impact, particularly in the southeast, but that's not everywhere. You know, there's places where there are very few predators. You know, we still have decline and recruitment rates. So so there's definitely something going on with it that as hunters we need to really keep a close eye on. So if not predators, what are the other what are some of the other things that could be behind this. It can be just a lack of good habitat. So and if there's not good enough habitat, that means those doughs aren't as nourished, which means they don't provide as much milk for the fons um. Some people think that a dough doesn't have a really good diet, that her milk is lower quality, and that is not true. You know, a dough that starving will still have very high quality milk. But what happens is she just doesn't have very much milk to feed her phones. So because of that, you know, they don't grow the way they should. You know, they're they're malnurished, are weak. So you see fons dying that way, you see you know, just a love average um mortality rates for those fons um which is which is obviously not good at all, and it's just a red flag for that whole management program. You know, fons are dying at a high rate like that, and then you know that's obviously not a good sign for those adults either that those are healthy, which that means the bucks on all that healthy, they're not able to express their you know, the body growth or or antler growth potential, and so that's not good for any of us. No, So on this habitat front, would it be correct to assume and I do this probably there probably is no way to really know this because it's over such a huge area. Um, but I would make an assumption or my guests would be that over recent years, over the last twenty years, as more and more people have gotten have become focused on managing for deer and focusing on improving habitat for deer and different things like that. On average, my assumption would be that of it land habitat quality for deer has likely increased if you were to, you know, look at at a large scale level, there's probably been an increasing in habitat quality for dear because of that interest in dear and that focus and education. Um, I guess number one, do you think that's a safe assumption? And then number two, if that is an assumption we can safely make if we think that private land habitat is improving on a larger area of land being managed for deer, Now where is the habitat degradation happening? Then? Is it because more and more private land is being taken out of you know, natural growth and being put into mono culture agriculture just big corn fields and bean fields, or is it something else entirely Well, for the first part, I think absolutely yes. I think the average landowner today who who's interested in hunting his or her land, is they understand far more about improvement for habitat, and there's more habitat management going on than than I would say probably ever before in the name of deer, which is really good because then there's a lot of other species that benefit from that. UM. So, I think some of the habitat degradation issues were facing. One of it is certainly conversion of wildlife habitat to crop land, particularly road crops UM. We lost a full quarter of our CRP land, you know, during the last decade, a full gone, and that's the most successful wildlife habitat program you know, from from our federal government that's ever been implemented. And with increased road crop prices UM a few years ago, we lost millions and millions of acres. So I think that is a big part of it, and that particularly hurt the Midwest region, the Northeast, and the southeast. Yes, it hurts us to lose that, but we have a lot of cover anyway. But in much of the Midwest, you know, the limiting habitat component was cover and now you're removing millions and millions of acres of the most limiting habitat on it, So that really hurts those deer hurts. So that is part of it um. But also part of it is you have a lot of landowners who either are not hunters or um are just not that interested in that part of it that we have force at habitat. It's just maturing and mature forest just doesn't provide all that much for deer, you know, with the exception of wintering areas in the north where they have to have that thermal cover and protection. Um. You know, these these overgrown hardwood forests you know, all through Appalachia and throughout much of the White Tails range. Uh, young forest very good for deer, but ture force, you know, not so much. They just don't support that many deer. If you take a look at percentage of forest in the US, you know, we're about where we were a few decades ago. So we're really not losing forest, But what we are losing a very quick amount are those young forests. Those young forests that provide the most food and cover for deer to just simply mature and the mature force just can't support as many deer as younger ones can. So is there anything being done, um from a state level or national level to try to incentivize some type of force management that might be able to help us reset that or anything other than that that's being done to try to address that issue of these maturing force across the country and what that means for wildlife. Yeah, there is, there's a lot of initiatives and incentives from the states. And actually QT may has a new employee, a young Force specialist that's working for us in New York. That his job every day, you know, he talks with and meets with private landowners to teach them the benefits of having young force on their property from a wildlife then and his job is to to talk to convert older force too younger force in the name of wildlife habitat. So that's do a grant from from the nrcs UM program. So there are similar initiatives like that in other states as well. So there's actually a big push all through New England in New York right now along those lines because you know, we're losing grouse uh like crazy because same thing force their mature and and they really need those young forests too. So um, and there's a lot of songbirds and other interior four species you know, that need that type of habitat and we're just losing that such a fast rate that we are see in some states and federal programs to try to to increase the amount of that. And so certainly from QB Man, we recognize it from from deer unders, you know that the value of those young forests, and so we're very excited to have that guy there to be able to work with private land owners to do that. All T staff encourage the land owners to do as well. But it's pretty cool that we have a guy on the ground actually meeting with landowners every day to actually make that a reality. Yeah, weah very true that that is very cool. Now, it's also important to have diversity in the age of habitat as well, right because correctly if I'm wrong, but my assumption is that it's really important to have young forest. But we don't want to have no old growth forest either, right for other wildlife species, and they're just the balance of an ecosystem. I mean, there's value to all the above. It's just a matter of making sure you don't have all of just one. Is that correct? That is correct? That is absolutely correct. Diversity is key, and right now we just have way too much of the older stuff and way too little of the young forest. So yeah, we don't want to have all young forests, but we want a good range of age classes and making sure that we have an ample amount in that young forest. And so so that's the intent of that program. Yeah, that makes sense. Now to the other piece of habitat. Um. You mentioned the CRP issue out in the Midwest. Um. You mentioned over the last decade, we've lost millions and millions of acres. UM, where do we spend Where do we stand right now with UM, with the CRP program, with the next Farm bill and what's being proposed or anything like that. Um, are we in a state where we think it's going to only get worse or things changing? What's the future look like for CRP and cover programs like that across the Midwest in the country. Well, well, I don't know what the discussions are within the farm bill to where that next step is going to go with that, but but I do know that you know, all that land that we lost was due to those higher commodity prices. So people think, well, okay, now you know corn and beans, the price of drops like crazy. Can't we just put that land back into CRP? But but it's not that easy because you know, you look at many of those agricultural producers when they greatly ramp up their production um and then put those acres back into road crops. That often comes with additional equipment, you know, factors, drills, plows, this combines, etcetera. So when it's all of a sudden the commodity prices are down, those farmers can't just stop crop farming that. You know, they're they're caught in that. You know, they have to pay for that equipment. So in many cases they continue to farm those acres, you know, to just be able to help make or at least hopefully make payments for all that equipment. So it's not nearly as easy as okay, let's just put it back into some good while I have aitat. So we get caught with that and that's not you know, not a good place at all. Um. I'm not sure what the next farm bill will be or how that will help from a while habitat end. I think we're very lucky with our new administration and uh Washington d C is very pro conservation minded. Um. That is very good from our end. But we'll see what happens from while the habitat end. At least with our federal programs. Interesting, in what ways do you think our our new administration is pro conservation from that standpoint? Is there anything specific you you're referencing there? Well? At least um throughout the campaign he talked about his conservation views. Um. I know he comes and released his sons are hunters, which is a very good thing. There has been talk with with much of the conservation community leading up to the election on promises or campaign promises and ideas of what he would like to see. So, UM, I think that we're a much better spot from that end, you know who our leaders and Washington that we've been in quite some time. UM, certainly more pro conservation um than we've seen recently. So I'm really hopeful for from that end of it that this can be good for our wildlife management and wilde habitat efforts. Okay, yeah, I'm I'm gonna be interested to see what happens to I hope, I hope that those things are true because we certainly, we certainly need, we need that support from the top all the way down to the bottom. So back to the harvest stuff. Um, you mentioned that the data you were referencing was fifteen and sixteen data. But I do know that some two thousand sixteen hunting season stuff has been rolling in. What have you seen from the states that have reported on two thousand and sixteen data so far? From one I've seen it. I try to keep up with that as well. UM, you know, it makes a lot of headlines. Um, we saw was a lot of what we've heard about thus far in two thousand sixteen was very similar to fifteen. Um. Some of them have been down literally a percentage point or two. UM. Some have been up, you know, within five percent of what they were last year. So UM. Some of the big states like Pennsylvania hasn't reported there as yet, and they typically don't have all of those numbers for another month or so, at least they don't make them available. So I don't know exactly what will happen, but I would guess the two thousand and sixteen buck card I'm side of, the two thousand sixteen into seventeen buck harvest will likely be very close to what we saw a year before that. So so I'm hopeful. Anyway, I'd like to see a continue to creep up and uh and edge back in in a positive direction. Um, But we don't want to see a huge increase in it. It's much better to have that thing moved slowly up or down. So now that we have a corner turn and it's set it up slowly, it would be nice to see it stay pretty consistent or maybe bump up a percentage point or two as we go. Um, that's that's a very stable you know, I had a very good thing for for our hunting. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Was there anything else from a harvest standpoint that stood up to you that was you you can I know you mentioned that the age structure continues to we continue to be at near record levels for three and a half year old or older. Um, was there anything when that came to you know, harvest split out by weapon or antless harvest, or any of the other things that you guys took note of their of interest? Yeah. I think the one thing, certainly, the age structure is the biggest. But the next thing that it's really interesting to me is if you take a look at the harvest by weapon tights and we break this out. We monitor this each year as well, and firearms still take about two thirds of the deer harvest. You know, a Rifler shotgun. And what we saw in two thousand fifteen was firearms were right at the entire harvest. However, from the bow end, um bow was and so it's between a fifth and a quarter. But there were some states that reported the cross bow harvest kind of in the other category. So some states combined bow and crossbow, some separated. And if you look at whether it's vertical bowl across bow, you know, bows are taken getting pretty close to a quarter of the harvest, and that's really bumped up. Fifteen years ago, the bow harvest was only of all the harvest, and now we're pushing that. I think, so what we're seeing is the bow having a much bigger impact on total deer harvest. And I think that's for a couple of reasons. One, as I said, we're more urbanized than ever before. There's just a lot more boat hunting opportunities today. You know, in places where we have firearm restrictions, you just can't use uh guns and or even muzzle orders in some cases. You know inside places today or in stude these limits of cities or towns where you know, a few years ago it was open and we could hold on them so I think bows have more of an opportunity. Obviously, the big crossbow push over the last five or six years has brought new people into the sport and archery hunters that are switching over to crossbows and in some cases being a little more effective. So I think we're seeing and more of that is the reason for that. And what my prediction is is that we're going to continue to see that bump up as we go forward, because it's not like we're gonna get any less urbanized. And uh as more people get into that, we have longer archer seasons, we have more archery opportunity, We have a lot of recruitment programs begging people, you know, to get in and try those so so and I see that is a good thing. So I think we'll continue to see that bow bump up. And one thing that we do monitors. You know what state harvest the higher percentage of their deer with the bow than anybody else and you're in the year out that's always New Jersey. New Jersey was the only state that harvested over half of the deer with the bow well last year for the first time. Now we have two states that have harvested at least half of the deer of the bow. Connecticut has been added to that, and uh so, I think that's a trend that we're going to see continue, and just more states are going to take more of their deer with the bow moving forward, particularly states that tend to be more urbanized or have higher human dense and and we're assuming this is because there's just less area that is available to hunt with the firearm in those states are those areas, and there's way more areas that are you know, bo only probably because of that very urban type setting. That's certainly a big reason New Jersey is the most urbanized state in the country. I'm sort of the most densely populated state in the country, so that plays into a lot um. I don't think that's the only reason, you know, but I think that that is probably the biggest reason. And I also think that's why the two states that have taken more than half of their deer with the bow, you know, our states that are high you know, urban populations and just not big rural areas. So I bet you'll see that continue. Yeah. So, so, speaking of urban deer, urban areas and deer hunting in urban areas. UM kind of shifting gears here to some of the more issue and advocable issue focus things. I know part two of your white Tail report is is focused on that. I don't remember if I saw anything in the report about this specifically, UM, but just from you know, following the news over the last year or so, there's been a lot of controversy around urban deer management. There's been tons and tons of protests around hunts being allowed in some urban centers, or sharpshooters being hired to kill deer in certain areas, or even in some areas hiring organizations to go and sterilize deer. UM. Can you give us a high level idea of what's been going on from that standpoint and what you think or what the cutie may thinks about these trends that we're seeing in urban deer management. Yeah, you're right, we're seeing more of that UM in large part because of our urbanized nature. You know, we just have more gears that are in areas now that cannot be hunted and and deer do very well in suburbia as your waterway. They you know, they do real good in our backyards and eating our gardens. And then that kind of stuff. So I think it's a promise we're just going to continue to increase. We have agencies working like crazy on that in different states trying to address it, but but nobody's you know, certainly have not been able to solve the problem yet. And part of it is once you get into those areas, the game is so different from you our our recreational hunting or our support hunting, as people often say. You know, there's so many different views first of all, and what you can kill a deer with, even if if that is the path that the community wants to take, but even before you know, to get to that point, there are so many meetings and red tape off and that you end up having the crust just to decide what to do with them. You know, are we going to kill him or are we not? You know, and any emotions run high, and as soon as you get all those emotions and those meetings and then it just takes forever to come to some type of conclusion on what to do because of that, and there's no doubt, unequivocally the absolutely best thing to do for those areas and for those deer are to to remove some of them. You know, if you could hunt them, that's certainly the best and cheapest. If not, you need to kill him somehow. And uh, but that's not always causible like us to to the people involved. UM So, because of that, then you end up with things like the sterilization for some programs, they do it on bucks something, they do it on dough and then it just turns into a nightmare, you know, extremely expensive. Um none of those programs have been shown to be helpful for long term because even if you know, if you sterilize those deer, it's not like you're starting with a population that's where it should be. You know, you're you're brought to the table because there's a huge problem with too many. So you need to address that number. And you know, it's not a once and done thing. You need to address the number on an annual basis. And most of those urban situations like that, whether it's you know, at Cornell University, whether sterilizing deer or an arbor or you know, pick a city anymore, it's it's in the news all the time. They are extremely expensive and in the end, mostly ineffective. Do we do we risk Here's what I'm thinking when you're seeing this option of sterilization being put on the table of more and more often these states, cities like you mentioned and on Long Island and doing it now and and our weather, I think they're talking about doing it. Are they are doing? And never? Um, as this is being proposed and being accepted in more places, do we risk the do we risk precedent being set? Are we actually seeing in each of these little debates in these communities the value of hunting as a means for management? Is that up for Is that up for judgment in a little tiny way in each one of these situations, Because when you're going in then they're they're debating the merits of a hunter harvest versus a controlled sharp sugar harvest versus a sterilization program as the means to manage dear populations. If the precedent starts being set that in these communities that sterilization is the way to go, and that people say, Okay, we're doing this, They're gonna say it works. Maybe, um, do we risk that continuing to spread and spread and spread, and someday years from now people are saying, well, hey, we've been we've been proving sterilization can work in these areas. You know, on this scale, we don't need hunters anymore. Is that something that you know, even though it's way way down the road, do we need to be worried about that? And as hunters be more active in trying to fight that misconception now early while we still can, well, I don't think that's going to replace hunting moving forward. And the reason for that is, at least yet, nobody has been effective as solving the problem with these other means, and it has just been extremely extremely expensive, you know, far more expensive and than to ever solve with hunters. So because of that, you know, I think that only happens in these areas because you often end up with very influential people who had the means to to pay for these essentially, you know, to allow it to happen. You know, if there was the average citizen UM or blue collar worker, there's no way they could ever pay for this to happen. So because of that, I don't see it as a big threat to the future of hunting. Um. I don't think it's a good thing in these areas. You know, every time you open up another opportunity, I guess there is the potential for what you're saying, UM, but the long term that that that doesn't scare me UM nearly as much as some of the disease issues out there for for our future. So let's talk about that disease issues. What's uh. You know, as we mentioned earlier, there were some big h D scares a few years ago. It doesn't seem like that has been quite as severe the past few years, UM, but c w D continues to pop up. Can you give us a quick primer on what's happened recently with both of those and then maybe we can I'd be interested in diving deeper into the c w D front, but maybe start with a quick overaw of what's the last on HD sure HEMORRHADG disease uh. Um. Luckily and two thousand sixteen was not a bad year again and most of the US A couple of places it was pretty severe, though West Virginia and Virginia had really bad outbreaks again. UM. The bigger issue I think with them ragic disease right now is we're starting to see new strains of the virus um in the US and moving northward at pretty rapid rates. One of the neat things about him raging disease is deer can build an immunity to a specific strain of it. So that's why, you know, this used to be just considered a disease kind of the southeastern US, and deer down the area a few got it every year. It was never all that bad because they saw it all the time. And then all of a sudden started moving north. Now, whether that's climate change or something else, it doesn't matter that it's definitely moving north, you know. So the first time our northern deer see it, they're their naive to it and it kills the snot on them. Well, so that is continuing to happen here in the north every few years. But also we're starting to see these new strains in the south that are killing the snot on some of our southern deer because they're naive to it. So it uh, there's a there's a big concern by many today regarding him a ragic disease because of these new strains and some of the movement of it. So I think it's some that we need to be very uh carefully watching. Um it's the most common disease of wait till deer. You know, it's been happening forever, but we're certainly seeing some different trends and what's happening with it now, so something we really need to keep her eye on. You know, there's no cure, there's no vaccines, so there's nothing that we can do it from that and other than just antalyst harvest as necessary. And and since you know it's dependent on the vector, a little no seem that transfers it from one to another. It's not like an individual deer is passing it to another deer directly anyway else Certainly the vector can bite the deer and then take that to another deer and infect them. But from the management end, you know, we need to monitor it. There's not a really result of our actions that's impact in additional deer because of it. So that makes it very different from c w D, and I think c w D is a much much bigger threat, partly because infect a deer can give it to another deer and infect them um in large part because there's not a practical live animal test yet. So because of that, we move deer every single day that can unknowingly have a disease to to the new facilities and then to new states, which is which is a terrible thing. And if you take a look across the US, it's hard to keep up with an expanding c w D map anymore. It seems like every day there's a new state or a new area within the state, or a new township, and it's just it's a nightmare for hunters and for walife agencies, and uh, I think the battle just continues to get worse as walife agencies and the deer farmers argue over this um. We certainly are not in a better place now that we're five or ten years ago with it. And I think that there's some pretty tough times ahead with regard to agency regulations, hunter desires, and arguments across the agencies with regard to to what we're doing with captive deer versus free ranging deer. But but there's no doubt I definitely see that as one of the biggest threats to the future of of our free ranging deer and our hunting heritage. So there's been a lot of news when it comes to new positives across the country. Do you have it? Can you give us a handful of those new places where CTB has been found for the first time or increasingly, um, where have we've seen some some changes there? Sure A two thousand and sixteen was big from for the first time we had it in the southeast. It had never been in the southeastern state Arkansas. Shows up in Arkansas and they say, okay, we have one here, must be something brand new. Well they quickly started sample and realized, oh my gosh, this is way more widespread than we thought. So it literally went in Arkansas from being the first day in the Southeast to confirm it to thinking, yeah, this is a recent incident to them realize, you know what, this most likely has been here for at least a decade. So that's that's a big difference if a dissease just shows up versus you had it for that long. Um, so that was very big. You end up with in Texas and captive deer they had not seen it in captive facilities. They confirmed it there now, which is huge. You end up with an new area in Pennsylvania which is huge, and then in most places that had it continues to just expand. You end up with more research showing that the deer populations are now actually declining because of the disease. Um, none of those are good for for what you and I love to do. Mark, Yeah, so well, can do you? Can you specify or excuse me, I can't talk. Can you elaborate on that study that came out of Wyoming? And I think that you're referring to there that spoke to some long term research that showed in these areas where there has been CWD for a long time, we're now seeing quantifiable, long term reductions and dear population, um, is that something you can speak to? Sure? You know, that's one of the first places I identified. And one of the things about c w D that the disease experts have been warning about. It said, look, you know, this is not something that comes in for a year or two and you just see massive die offs. It's something that just builds itself within the population continues expanding and expanding to a point where all of a sudden, now you start seeing these declines. You know, there's no vaccine for c w D, there's no cure. You know, it's a hundred percent fatal, so that you know that's never good for deer. And while we're seeing for the first time now these long term impacts of the disease being in that Wyoming herd where you know, the attributing to up to fourteen percent mortality annually just from the disease. You know, that's not including what gets hit with a car or shot with a rifle or whatever. So just think about in any state you know where you hunter want to go hunting, if all of a sudden, fourteen percent of the deer this year are dead because of it, fourteen percent at least next year are dead because of it. Suddenly hunting opportunities are becoming really reduced. And uh, you know Wisconsin's had at the longest in the East. And you can talk to people from Wisconsin and we have you know, a qd m A that have told le was, Look, you know, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. You know, this is just so bad in my area. You know, every day we kill now or almost every deer has disease. You know, we're not seeing older bucks anymore. It's a sad thing. And if actually, if you take a look at the national age structure data for the last two years, Wisconsin has led the country and harvest of healing bucks. You know, when you think of Wisconsin. Everybody thinks the Buffalo County in these great big deer, Well, they're trending the other way. And actually this past year they harvested the lowest percentage of bucks that were three and a half older than any state in the country. That's not a good trend for what you want from from a deer high end. No, so so here. The thing about c w D, from what I see is that there are these there's a lot of conflicting information out there that I think the average deer hunter is seeing today. That has got to be confusing, because there seems to be a lot of science coming out and a lot of biologists who are who are emphasizing things that you have here that make a lot of sense. But then I feel like there's some arms of the media and there's some people that are going out in going and having seminars or publishing articles or writing online that are some saying something very different, and they're saying that CWD is overblown, that it's some government conspiracy theory, or that's that wildlife agencies are overreacting tremendously, and that the the issues we're seeing in Wisconsin with deer hunting harvest and satisfaction everything. The reason why that's all bad now isn't because of c w D. It's because of the big bad agency that have overreacted and ruined deer hunting. Um. So you're seeing some of that kind of talk. Um, what do you make of that, Kip is is it? Why is this happening? Why are there some people that are saying this? And what do you think about what they're saying? Well? I think that there there is tremendous confusion about it, in large part because there's just so much about CWD that that we don't know. Um. You know, there's a paramount that we do, but there's way more that we don't. So because of that adds the room to argue either side of the issue. UM. As a wild like professional, I tend to be on the side of the vast major already of disease experts and what they say, what they predict. So, but there are certainly some wild lift managers on the other side of it, in some cases because of personal gain by other interests. In some cases because you know, they may truly believe that the you know, the gray area of c w D is just not that big of a deal. Um, you can always play the odds. And you know, in anybody who takes a look at what we do know about it, um, you know it's not good. And I think that we've seen a lot today published in writing and on TV and in public events. You know that it really does a disservice to to what we do know about the disease. And and I think that's a very bad thing. And particularly some very influential people who are who are tremendous educators, you know, that are respected and valued by deer hunters that I think you know, they're they're not telling them the whole story, or they're they're telling them a skewed version of it. And I don't think that's very good at all. Yeah, I felt the same way. So could you could you give us as best as possible from what the most verified and reliable science and research has shown. What are a few of the things we can say that we do know about cw D and that we do know about proper reaction to it? Is there handful things that you can tell us that you know, we can safely assume this is true and this we can at least stand by this, And yes, there's still lots of grayer. But this is what we do know. Sure, we know that that it's fatal the deer. We know that deer can pass the infectious materials. Is that they have to other deer through urine or feces um, saliva, blood for for other deer to to pick up the disease and get it. We don't know exactly how much other material has to be shared before another deer gets it, but we know that dear definitely can deposit those infectious materials in those bodily fluids for other deer to get. Um, we know for sure that once they get they're going to die, but it maybe a few months to a few years, you know. And and that's part of the problem was if they got it and died immediately, they'd be off the landscape and hopefully not spreading it to as many other deer. But the fact that they can look completely normal and shed those materials for months or years and let other deer get it is you know, a real hindrance to to manage the deer. So so we know those things for sure. Um, some of the stuff that makes it difficult is, as I just said, they can have it for a while, without showing symptoms. UM. There is not a practical live animal test to test for it, and that is probably the biggest hindrance. UM. There is a console test as well as a rectal of myopsy tests that are both live animal tests. The problem with those is UM. You know, they may work on deer, they don't work really well on elk. And the one that's being touted is the most useful right now. That rectal biopsy UM does a pretty good job detecting it if a deer has had the disease for quite a while, but in the early stages it misses almost all of them, so so it's not practical for use. It's certainly not a reliable test. If we did have a reliable test, that would make it a lot better, because it's you know, it's crazy the number of captive deer that are moved every day, you know that certainly, And it's not it's like people in the industry or bad you know, they don't want to have c w D in a facility or spread it to another one either. But you know, if you can unknowingly move these deer, that is that's a big threat, you know, to to to our free range and deer, so or if we could have at or a live animal test that would help them a lot. So. So in addition to something like that, you know, improving testing and things. What types of reactionary measures do you think or can we safely say, seem to be UM recommended or UM either necessarily or excuse me, either necessary or recommended. I guess as far as okay, we we have CWD somewhere or we're trying to prevent c w D from getting somewhere, what types of steps have we found to be effective in managing it um or could be effective? I suppose. I think the one thing that is has shown to be good is when c w D shows up in a new area, UM testing a bunch of deer right in that immediate area, so that our agencies can get a good feel for prevalence of the disease and likely how much it has spread already. Because once, if if you find it when it first arrives, you have a chance to get rid of it. UM. So I do believe that when you find a new area, it is very good to test a bunch of deer right in there. They're exactly like you guys did in Michigan exactly like what they're doing in Minnesota right now. Um, once it has spread through an area, UM, there's nothing that we know of right now to eradicate it. So I think once you have just determined okay, this is not a new thing, it is here that spread, it is very good to know. We're like, okay, how far has a spread or what do we have here? But at that point, I think the game changes a little bit and that since we can eradicate it, the worst thing we can do is alienate hunters and lose their support. And the best way to do that is to say, hey, we're gonna kill every deer here and be done with it. And and obviously that doesn't work, and nobody wants to see that. UM. I think a perfect example of a good working relationship has occurred in Michigan when it showed up because the agency has done such a good job over the last decade or so of mending relationships with hunters and wanting to be good partners with our q d m A branches with all of these QTUM co ops, so they trust the d NR. There at least many of the DOW biologists for the people they work with so it was a really nice thing to see. How okay, yea have it here. The agency reaches out to these different groups and we need support, we need to test these deal we need to do this. They did it very quickly, very efficiently, and it has worked very well and where it is in your free engineer hurt. So because of that, I think that you have to have that working relationship with the not work as if the agency just says, hey, this is what we're gonna do and you have no say in it. Because of reality vision, most deer on private land and they can't just go on to private land to kill these deer, so they have to maintain that good relationship. In many cases, you know, hunters want some older bucks to be able to photograph and hunt and pursue. So if an agency says we're going to get rid of all the deer or all the older bucks, well then hunters don't want to hear that and they're no longer part of the solution. So I think that once you find its established, it's much better to keep hunters engaged so that they continue to harvest an all this deer and so that they can keep with the program to keep being part of the solution. And if that takes a few older bucks out there to make sure that they want to continue, then I think that's a very good thing. It's much better to have those older bucks to keep hunters engaged, I think, than to try to remove all the bucks and lose support from hunters. That makes sense. I think to what we talked about earlier, that that necessary collaboration between hunter and agency. UM. It makes sense you need to keep that that relationship there by not alienating alienating them with some of these UM possible regular management decisions, while at the same time trying to make the proper management decisions UM for the long term future. It's that balancing act that seems to be the challenge UM. But it makes a lot of sense. You alluded a little bit ago to some of the things related to the captive deer and possible transmission of c w D. There is there anything new when it comes to what the research has shown as far as to what degree the captive deer industry or captive deer facilities have when it comes to transmitting c w D across state lines or from captive to wild deer. Is there anything new on that front? And then number two, is there anything new when it comes to how that is being regulated um or managed? Well, UM, I don't think there's anything new on the front of the threat of captive deer and spread in the disease. UM. I'm in many cases less concerned about them spreading it to wild deer right around the facility through the fence as I am about spreading it to wild deer on the facility through escapes from the facility. But even more apart from just movement from one facility to another, you know, by by deer on a trailer or a truck. Um. If you take a look at how CTVIG is spread across the US, you know there's no way that this has happened just by random movement of the disease. You know know, it's been trucked and into most new places, and that's either being trucked by a live deer or buy a dead deer just harvest, you know, the carcass and movement where you're not supposed to it. You know, as hunters were our own worst enemies with that. You know, I know people who move deer illegally once if they've regally harvested the deer and then they end up bringing you know, the eyes and the brain back with the skull or you know, they will clean up properly or whatever. And so I think the science is pretty clear that the most likely way that the disease can move is live deer moving to new facility. And you probably the second easiest way to move it is, you know, by legal harvest of deer, but then moving parts that you're not supposed to eyes, the brain, the spleen, you know, server or the backbone, that kind of thing. So certainly, from the captive end, I think that you know, if we could stop all the movement of live deer, we would help. And from the hunter end, you know, if we didn't do ourselves such harm then move stuff ourselves, we could help a bunch as well. Yeah, yeah, I think on that ladder. And that's one piece that I feel like a lot of people still don't know about. I just when I'm just kind of sampling acquaintances and things like, did you know that you can't in many states, you can't you know, shoot a deer, let's say in Iowa where there might be a CWD positive state, or any state like that, and then shoot that deer throw in the back of your truck and bring it back into Michigan. Um. That's illegal. UM. I think a lot of people do that not realizing it because these regulations aren't too terribly public. They're they're in the books or they're on the website, but I'm not sure a lot of people realize that. In many cases, like like you mentioned, Kip, you need to You can bring the meat, you can bring the hide, you can bring the skull caps, you can bring the antlers with everything scraped off of. But you can't just bring a whole head with a brain and all that other stuff in there. And that's one of those things I think needs to be more publicized and made known to hunters because I think a lot of people are doing this not intentionally, not intentionally trying to aid in the spread of disease, not intentionally trying to break the law, but just never would have thought that that's an issue and never would have known. UM. I mean, we even did some service of the NDA that I think that showed a few a year or two ago that that maybe some people didn't know that. I mean, are you seeing that KIP is something that probably needs to be um more more publicized. Well, yes, the answer is yes. But I think a lot of it the publiciation or promotion, and it needs to be you know, among our own ranks. Um. Every state, while they just said, I'm aware of publishes that in the rules guide, and and they talk about it because they talk more. Sure they could, but never the least they are doing that. But you're right, man, the average hunter just does not you understand that, only that they haven't read it or think glad that won't apply to me. Um. So yes, I think as hunters we definitely need to talk to you know, the other hunters in our camps and then we hunt with them, just let them know you know about this. Um. I think part of it is just in a large part, just don't just don't care enough to think this is not going to matter to me, or they see you know, somebody on TV saying, see everybody's not that bad, so they figure out I'm not gonna worry about it. Well, um, I think you know, could the agencies do more? They certainly could, But I think in in large part that we need to put the onus on ourselves as hunters to make sure that we're not negatively impact in our own future. Yeah. Yeah, and and and what I was saying was to that latter point. I think it's something that just within the hunting community hasn't been discussed enough. So so I agree with you on that front. And and I guess hopefully we're going to inform a few people here today because because yeah, it's something that just some surprise, there's not a lot of people that realize it, and it can be a hassle. You know, you shoot a deer and now you need to you know, keep it out yourself, or skin it out and deal with it or process it, or now you need to go to a taxidermists in that state. Um. But some of these things, like you said, they have bigger picture implications that, while inconvenient, make a difference. And we owe it to ourselves as hunters into the future of this hunting lifestyle to to try to take every step so we keenda to minimize that potential risk. So that's that's right. I agree. So, Kip, we talked about disease, We talked a little bout some of these habitat things. UM. Looking forward, is there what are there any things that concern you or any major issues or upcoming things coming down the pipeline that that we need to be aware of. Um, when it comes to the future of deer and deer hunting that we haven't talked about yet. I think one of the biggest things is we need to have a bigger discussion and on this whole disease thing. And the reason might say that is we started early in this conversation, so we'll bring us full circle here, you know, talking about the age structure of the harvest and how hunters have shown their willingness to pass here to get them to that at least three and a half year old age class. Well as c w D continues to spread, some agencies take the tactic of okay, we're not going to allow a deer to get to these old age classes. We want the hunters to kill them young. In some cases they have removed antler restrictions to return the harvest of union bucks. In some cases are advocate average actively supporting hunters to to kill younger bucks. UM. So I think that we are at a crossroads where, you know, we have really good hunter agency relationships in many cases probably better than ever before. We have better age structure of bucks, and we probably have had and at least the last hundred years. So we have a lot of happy hunters that all of a sudden, this back next monkey wrench and this is okay, it's spreading c w D. Some agencies want younger bucks. So with hunters finally getting new part where they are and now being told now we want to go the other way, it's going to take a really good working relationship to navigate through. I think this next tangled mess. And so some agencies have said, no, we're not going to try to drive bucket ages younger. You know, we want the continued support of hunters and be part of this and harvest antalists here, um, but not all of something that have gone the other way. So I think that's the next big hurdle that we're gonna have to get over and know or not in necessarily over, but work our way through. And it's going to take, uh, you know, good relationships on both sides and a lot of trust on both sides, agencies and hunters UH to come out of the stronger at the other end. Now, is it safe to say that you would not recommend that that type of management decision based on what you said earlier about the importance of still trying to maintain some level of balanced age structure and the fact that that improves hunter satisfaction. Um, is that correct? Would you say that this idea to just really start targing to you're a half of Bucks to try and manage c w D maybe isn't the best idea. I think that when you first have c w D in an area, it is fine to target all deer, you know, Bucks or doos and if you established, hey this is brand new, let's get rid of them. I think it's absolutely the right thing to hit Bucks and do is hard to try to keep it from ever spreading out of there. However, once you determine now we're pretty well established here, then I absolutely think that it's better to have some over deer out there to keep hunters engaged in actively hunting. Okay, Yeah, that that that makes sense based on what you're saying earlier. Okay, So that's something that's concerning you. What's something that you're excited about when it comes to the future. I mean, what what silver lining do we have, What what kind of optimism do we have in store for the coming year or two review? One thing, one of the things is where we're starting to see, you know, a bunch of youth involved in and hunting, which is a good thing. You know, as we continue to have an aging hunter population, UM, agencies have really stepped up to try to put in some new programs to get youth involved. And so I see that as a very good thing because I think that the youth can correct a lot of problems. And I gave the example early on, you know, in our hunting camp where you know, it was really cool to have all those young kids there. UM. I think one of the things that as we start to get more used involved, the UTH numbers themselves are good for us, but I think at least an equally important thing is once socius are involved, you end up with a lot of aging hunters becoming more engaged again as mentors. And and we saw some of that right at our hunting camp last year, and I've seen this across the country where you know, a guy who's hunted most of his life and is getting older just doesn't hunt as much anymore. Sure he's still into it, but maybe not as much. Suddenly, as an opportunity to really pass some of that knowledge that he has onto a young boy, or a young girl, and I've seen people get really engaged again and just really excited about hunting. So I see that as one of the biggest break spots going forwards. We have these new youth coming in, but at least as as big as a deal is some re engagement of these older folks as mentors. UM. I like that a lot. Has there been any new data? I haven't seen this, so there probably isn't, but but maybe you know something I don't. Is there any new data when it comes to hunter Um? Oh gosh, what's the right word country recruitment? Anything new on that front or we're seeing you know, a few years ago we started talking about a little bit of an uptick there with more youth, more female hunters. Um. Do we see anything new when it comes to that trend yet? I haven't seen the other data out of two thousand and sixteen, yet I do know that there's more programs for them kind of. They are three programs, you know, the recruit and UH and Reactivate and H and Kane Hunters. So you're seeing more of that from the States and UH and and we have a person from qdm A that sits on one of those committees and works actively, so you see a lot of programs to help that. Um, there's more opportunities for those kids party because as you know, we reduced more barriers. Each year, you end up with more states you know that either reduced the minimum major requirements or relax some of those requirements, or get kids involved. So I have not seen actual numbers from last year, but I do know that we're seeing more opportunities and more programs to help that. So hopefully that will indicate that we actually do have more kids getting involved in you know, and nobody ever talks about the other side of that mentor side that I did a minute ago, but I think that we should. I think that is extremely important and you know, and one that we can't overlook. Yeah, that's a great point and some once something I hadn't really thought about myself either, So it makes lot of sense. So, Kip, we've talked about the current situation of the deer hunting world. We talked a little bit about the future of the deer hunting world. What does the future of Kip Adam's deer hunting world look like for two thousand seventeen. Do you have anything you're particularly excited about on the farm, any any buck here after anything like that. Uh, I am always excited about deer season. And actually the past weekend, I have two young kids, a ten year old daughter and a seven year old son, so we were out on Saturday actively we were cutting some trees, doing some habitat work this winter to to increase our chances this fall of crossing paths with a with a buck or a door of our dreams. So I'll spend a bunch of time this winter and this summer with my kids and fluding habitat, which is always a good thing. We'll do a bunch of camera surveys to have a really good idea of what's out to this fall. Um. I will likely spend much, at least I hope so much of this fall um with my daughter or my son at my side. Um. They're both at the age where they want to go every day. I don't take them together. They're they're like a typical brother and sister where they spend a lot of time fighting each other. So it's rare that I go here on our phone without one of them. And uh so my personal opportunities decline something with them. But uh man, I wouldn't pass it for anything, and it's it's quality time with them and uh, I love every second on it. So I would guess my two thousand and seventeen season, Well, we're involved a lot with my kids and uh hopefully my daughter's first deer this fall, which will be tremendous, and then uh um, maybe some really good sits with my son as well. Very cool. That sounds awesome. What where can our listeners go if they found all of this intriguing and they want to learn more? Where where can they get the white Tail Report because that is available for everybody and um, and where can they learn more about what you're doing with the QUM? They can go to to q d M a dot com um and find a wealth of information on all aspects of deer or habitat management. They're all kinds of articles, et cetera at that site. UM. They can also download our white Tail Report for free. UM. They can purchase a hard copy if they want, but they can get a free download right from our website. And actually they can download every single white Tail Report back to two thousand and nine, just to see how trends have changed and what the big issues have been to change, but it's all free for the taking at QDMA dot com. Excellent. We'll make sure to include a link to that. Highly recommend you guys all listening download that report. Downloads on the past reports. Um, there's some really interesting stuff in there, and as Kip alluded to know, every year they cover some different issues too that are pertinent and interesting just as much now as they might have been last year or a few years ago when they originally wrote some of those pieces. So check those out. They're great free pdf downloads and uh highly recommend them. And Kip, thank you so much for coming on here again and joining us and sharing your wealth of information. I had great tap talking to you, MARKO. Have a good spring and certainly good luck to fall. Sounds good same to you. And that is at first today. A few quick updates though, before we go. First, if you're familiar with our other podcasts, the One Wild podcast, which I've partnered with Drew Outdoors on, you know that we answer listeners submitted questions on that show, and right now we're in need of some new questions to tackle related to offseason topics, you know, stuff that's relevant to what's happening right now things like habitat work and food plots or scouting or offseason tree stand work, all that kind of good stuff. We'd love to talk about that. So if you have a specific question on a topic related in some way to those kinds of things, you can submit those questions by going to wire to Hunt dot com slash one hundred percent wild and that's one hundred, the number one zero zero and then the words percent wild. So check that out. Send us your questions. We'd love to tackle them. Moving on, I do want to thank our partners. We have made this podcast possible, so big. Thank you to Sit to Gear, Yetie Coolers, Ozonics, Redneck Blinds, maybe an Optics, White Tailents to North America, Carbon Express and hunter ra Maps. And finally, thank you all so much for listening and for being a part of this community. I appreciate you, and I hope you'll stay Wired to Hunt