00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number sixty one TAM's show. Dan and I are discussing a topic that all hunters love, debating the timing of the rut. So here we go. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear. Now today in the show, Dan and I are diving into a topic that mostly all deer hunters love to discuss, debate, and dream about, and that's the rut. And specifically, we'll be discussing the timing of the rut in the theories around how we might be able to predict when the rut will occur. But before we get to all of that, we've got to fill our weekly quota for b s NG. So Dan, what is new? Right now? I am sitting in a dirty motel on the south side of Philadelphia near the airport, waiting to take off, uh right in early tomorrow morning to head back to Iowa. I've been in I've been in Philadelphia or like a suburb of Philadelphia for work the entire week. And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hate on big cities and large populations in the East Coast because I know I know a lot of guys from Pennsylvania, although they're from the west side of the state. But I am very thankful that I live in a small town in Iowa. That's all I'm gonna say. Yeah, I hear you. I couldn't do it. I lived in I lived in Manhattan for a summer and that was all I could handle. Yeah, I'm glad I only have to come out here a little and just get small doses of it. I'll be honest with you. When I was at work, everybody was real nice. But when you're out in public, I don't think I heard please or thank you. Yeah, I'm just like that blows my mind anyway. You know. I'm just ready to get back and inn like a couple more weeks. I'm gonna check my trail cameras again, and that's what I'm really looking forward to. Yeah, I hear you. I came like so super close to buying one of those um wireless cellular trail cameras and trying to convince one of my buddies to drive down and set it up so I could start getting trail camera pictures from Ohio because it's just dying so bad to see what's down there. But I don't think I've been able to convince my friends yet to go down there. So well, i'll tell you what, Man, those things I can understand if they'd work good and a well, like an area with good cellphone reception, but where I hunt. I tried one of those and had poor cell phone service, so they don't really work. That sucked to spend five hundred bucks on that and then I haven't worked right right, Plus the monthly fee for data or whatever. Yeah, it's like it's a flat fee of like ten images for forty bucks. So I don't know. I don't think it's worth it so well. I mean it could be worth it if you had a good cellphone reception. I don't, so it's not worth it. Yeah, I still might do it if if if I get someone like it's going down there, I might try to buy one and send it down just because I'm just dying to see what's happening down there and stuck up here not knowing anything, not in Michigan. That in Ohio and not in Iowa. So if I could get some kind of eyes on the ground, that would be nice. But we'll see. But no complainants. Things are good up here for me too. I definitely like being away from the big city. I know you're glad to be out of there soon. Um, I'm almost I almost was recording remotely, just like you two. I just got back from Northern Montana like ten minutes ago. So what what were you doing up there? We're in Glacier National Park. Um my in laws were in town the last like week and a half, and so we were in Grand Teton and Yellowstone and then Glacier and we kind of toured them around, showed them different places and hiked and fished and did all sorts of stuff. So Glaciers is on my bucket list. You gotta go there. It's it's awesome, it's incredible. We saw what we see well, black bear and Glacier, some moose. Yellowstone I saw grizzly two black bears and thousands of buffalo. And in Grand Teatown we see moose all the time. So lots of wildlife and gorgeous gorge of scenery and tons of stuff to do, and I've got good news, Dan, what's that I finally figured out how to fly fish? Well, well, yeah, you're gonna have to teach me. Then, Yeah, it's a I came out here, you fly fish maybe ten years ago, back in high school a little bit, and um, I knew coming on here the summer I needed to pick it back up because it's great fly fishing out here. And for the first couple of weeks I failed miserably. I go out there for like six hours and not catch a thing, and I'd go to the flas shop and talk to him and trips through what I'm doing wrong, and I couldn't figure it out. So finally, like three weeks ago, I caught one, and then last week I got two once and then finally a couple of days ago, I finally hit it. I landed ten, including a nice like seventeen inch cutthroat, which is I think it was my biggest fish with a fly rod, and that was sweet and had a bunch of other fish hit and broke off, but it was sweet. So I stoked about that, figuring out how to do that. Catch some fish and uh, it's not too bad out here. So that's you're gonna start smoking a pipe? You know if I feel that like fly Fisherman's you know, I can just see you turning to that, Like if you're a fly fisherman, you're like in this own category. It's like you're kind of a hipster but not really a hipster. Where like red and black flannel with the waiters smoking a pipe with one of those hats with all the lures hanging off of it. I don't I'm not doing the floppy hat. But I got the flannel and I got everything else except for the pipe, I guess. So I'm maybe halfway there. But by the end of the summer, who knows when it happened. Two months is a long time. You never know. I could come back a totally different, very strange person. But white tails, we're here talking about white Tails. I've got a DVD is sitting next to me right now that as soon as we get off this call, I'm going to drink a beer and eat a pizza and watch some horn porn and dream about hunting deer. That's my plan for this night. So ellis I'm gonna watch some crappy HBO movie probably, or just go straight to bed. Yeah, I don't blame um. Or you might dream about the rut, which is what many deer runners are doing all year, thinking about the rut and that crazy time of the year, which is exactly what I wanted us to talk about today. Um. You know, I know that you know this and probably everyone listening, but the timing of the rut, when the rut happens is like one of the biggest questions people have every single year. We always want to know when's the rut gonna peak or during the hunting season, we're always wondering, you know, did you see any sign of the rut yet? Are they chasing? Does? Yeah, you're hearing anything happening that grunting? Are they fighting? We always want to know what's going on, trying to you know, trying to get that timing perfect to be out there when it goes crazy, because when you get those magical days where the rut is just on, it's it's just that it's magical. There's nothing like as far as I'm concerned, And that's what we dream about, and um it's hard to come by though it's something that we see on TV or we think about. We occasionally hear about it, but we we don't often at least I don't often see that perfect rut day. But it's a loosive thing that we're always trying to find. So today and I want to talk about how we might be able to figure out when that peak rut might be, if we can at all. And um, you know what the different theories about that are. So I don't know, what do you have? You ever really had one of those magical right days? Yeah, I'll be honest, I've had a couple over the years. Um, you know it's and I guess by definition, one of those magical days would be, Uh, this is what I think. There's two scenarios. There's one where you know you're sitting all day, you're sitting in the morning, or you're sitting in a in the evening and a hot dog comes by and there's like twelve bucks that end up coming through that day. Or there's a you're in a pinch point and there may not be a hot dog come through, but their crews in real heavy that day. And like my perfect the best day I ever had was this dough one morning came sprinting out of nowhere, just right through the crp field right by my stand and then just jumped and went into the thick bedding area. And I think that day I saw fourteen different bucks and each one of them came by my stand, and the biggest one he was out of range. But it was just like all day long that scent was in the air and deer were coming in and out of this little this draw that I was in, and it was just perfect. It was perfect. What do you remember what the date was? It was probably I want to say November three or fourth that year. Um, And I've experienced a lot of ruts, man, I mean from I remember watching a hundred seventy in deer through my binoculars breed a dough on October twe you fourth, and then I've also remember rattling in a buck on November like so that's huge range, you know. So yeah, yeah, that's definitely an important thing I think to note when it comes to the rut is it's not just it doesn't just happen like it's not like guaranteed to happen between these three days and all the running activity happens between those days. No, it's it's a long drawn out process with valleys and peaks where it rises and falls, and then there's gonna be a period time where there's gonna be a burst of running activity, and then you might not see anything. And like you said, you might see running activity quote unquote in October, you might see at the end of November, you might see the beginning of December. I think that's a big reason why this idea of the timing of the rut is so confusing for people because sometimes we're talking about two different things. We're talking about running activity like what you just said, like a dough being chased or bucks being rattled in that might be what we would call rutting activity. And then there's the more scientific definition of the rut, which would be the peak of breeding, so when the actual mating is happening. And that causes a lot of confusion when people are talking about, you know, when the biologists talking about the peak of the rut versus when hunters might be talking about the peak of the rut. It's usually two different things. Lots of times the biologists talking when the actual breeding is happening, while the hunters, when we talk about when one's a peak of the rut. We really want to know when's the peak of daylight movement that hunters are actually going to see which translates into hunting success. And those are typically two different times of the year too, by a small portion of times. So what I thought, Dann we could do today is is just dive into this and as we kind of go through, I want to talk through, you know, that the two main theories around the timing of the rut, And then I thought we could look back at some of our own previous experiences and compare those to some of these different theories and see if they line up or matchup, or what we can take from that, talk about the actual predictions for this year two thou and see how you or we might be planning our rut plans or vacations around that, and then finally talk through some different other factors that might be impacting the timing or intensity of right activity. So so hopefully for everyone listening, by the end of today, you're gonna have a really good understanding of what impacts the time of the rut, how that will impact how you should hunt and plan your hunts, and you know what all these different theories mean, how we can to them, and how they should impact what we do as hunters. So that's the game plan. Dan, Is that sound sound good? Take it away all right? So I thought to kick things off, we would talk through the two most popular theories, excuse me, the two most popular theories about the timing of the rut. And first and foremost, the traditional notion by biologists is that the peak of the rut is consistent year in and year out, at least in the northern to middle of the country, so above the Mason Dixon line, the timing of the rut is relatively consistent year in and year And they've done this by like taking a look at um fetal measurements, So by taking a look at dead doze, whether it's road kill or hunter killed, and they measure the length of the fetus. So the baby deer that's growing inside of a female dough um, they measure that length and based on that they can determine the date it was conceived, so they can actually get accurate dates for when that breeding had happened. And then they look at that map it all out and consistently year after year after year in Missouri, Michigan, across the north midwest middle of the country. Also that it's very consistent in the form of a bell curve. So everyone, I think it's familiar with the bell curve that shows the majority is gonna be high in the middle of You've got like a line that starts low, it rises up to the middle, and then drops back down again. And so that peak is almost always in the middle of November in that area of the country. And so the peak breeding, according to all these many different studies that have been confirmed over and over again, the peak date for breeding is usually around November fifteen, give or take. And then there's of course, you know outliers, there's gonna be some earlier, its gonna be some later, but usually that's when the most breeding is happening. So this though goes back to you know what we just mentioned a couple minutes ago, the fact that that's breeding peak breeding, but that might not necessarily coincide with the peak daylight activity the hunters want to see, because as you and I know, and many hunters know, when the breeding is actually happening lots of times, that's something we call the lockdown phase, when you're not seeing as many deer actually because a buck might hurt a doll into a thick bedding cover standing there where there for half a day or something, and then you're not gonna see them unless you're in that thick cover with them. So this can confuse some people because they're saying, I'm not seeing tons of running activity around the middle of November, I'm seeing it early in November, where I'm seeing at different times. Um. But scientists consistently has said the biologists consistently, people that are way smarter than me have reaffirmed this to me over and over again. It's there's lots of literature and published studies that that's the peak breeding and it's not related to the moon phase. According to these studies. There was I actually saw something that the c d m A had published. I'm gonna pull it up right now, um, because it's pretty interesting. Um. The shows there's no link between moon phase and the peak of rut. And basically what they did is they they took a look at the percent of does bread per week and so basically what we just talked about their days showcasing, you know, when the actual breeding happened, and then they mapped the date of the full moons all that kind of that access and the peak breeding always happened at the same time. In this case, it was a little bit later in November, but the moon phase was different all the time, but the breeding was all still the same. So that was another piece of evidence showing that moon, which many people think might affect the time of the rut, maybe doesn't. So that's the popular biologist theory that you're gonna get if you talk to anyone that works with the wild you know, Phish and game agency, if you talk to anyone who is a biologist, most anyone who's a biologist. Have you talked to someone from the Quality of Deer Management Association, et cetera. That is the most popular theory on the timing of the rut, that you're gonna get peep breeding around the middle November, and that that also means that the running activity that we like to see, the chasing and the seeking and cruising, all that kind stuff, that's going to happen in the preceding days or weeks. So that's rut timing theory number one. Any questions on that one day, and that's something you're familiar with, right right, So I just want to uh correct me if I'm wrong, and I'll let you tell me if I'm wrong or if I'm right. But what caused is a dough to go and heat is the amount of sunlight in a day, correct, That's what That's what causes it. So so based on that this, the Earth travels around the Sun pretty much the same exact motion every year, and because that circumference is way larger than the circumference around the moon around the Earth, the moon is going to be at different stages at different times of every month almost every year. You know, you've got your full moon can be on any day, any day, but the sunlight is going to be exactly the same for the most part, on in November to trigger that that breeding cycle every year at the same time. Yeah, you know, give or take, give or take, yep, yep, And you're exactly right. It's that the amount of daylight it impacts. It's called it's the photo period. So the photo period is essentially the amount of daylight and that impacts rising and falling hormone levels and deer and so that as you come into that November time period, it triggers exactly like you said, it then triggers these rutting behaviors and eventually esters for dose um and like you said, that's consistent year and year out, while moon phase is different at different times of the year, at different times of the month, et cetera. So I'll read something here real quick from Lindsay Thomas Jr. Of the Qualitier Management Association on this topic, and I think it very succinctively explains what I think I said there and kind of rambled on. He says, the science on this is decisive. A significant number of scientific, peer reviewed studies have shown the timing of the rut in any particular location is triggered by photo period or daylength, not the moon or temperature or anything else. I think hunters often confuse visible rout behaviors like chasing and grunning with a peak of breeding, but when you document breeding dates in the location, they actually change very little year to year, even though the dates of peak rut behaviors mate very That's because weather, moon phase, and food sources, things that fluctuate widely year to year affect deer movement patterns. But even when the weather reduces deer movement, you find that breeding still takes place at the same time it normally does if it does. Coming into esters a warm front isn't going to change that end quote, And I think, what, you know, what he's saying, there is lots of times, weather or different factors. And we'll talk about this a little bit later. These different factors might make us think that the rut isn't happening. But if the does are an esters, they're going to be bread. It just might be happening more in thick cover, or it might be happening after dark, just might be happening ways and times that we can't see it. Um. But according to this you know widely health theory, it's going to be happening relatively consistently year in in, year out. So fact fact So that's theory number one. Do you want to move on theory number two? Or is there anything else you want to add on that before we start debating these so, so, who which theory is that? What's the name of that theory that we just discussed? There isn't even like a I wouldn't even say there's a name. I would just say that's that's the that's the uh the popular the scientific biologist stamp of approval theory um. The second theory has been popularized by a somewhat rogue element. Mostly this is another biologist Wayne Laroche and Charles Alsheimer from Deer and Deer Hunting magazine have been popularizing a theory over the last decade or so through that magazine UM where their views the results of a study they've been doing for almost twenty years or maybe over twenty years now that shows were that indicates maybe that there's something else that might affect the timing of the run. And this is kind of people called the Alsheimer theory or the Wayne Laroch Charles all Tremmer theory, whatever, But this is one where every year they've got a different prediction for when the peak of running activity will be. And so everyone gets pretty excited about this, wants to look at that takes a look at those dates, et cetera. So I will read here the kind of official definition of this theory, which is in the Deer and Deer Hunting two thousand fifteen Rut Calendar UM where they include this information about the rut predictions and then they've got I've got a digital version of it. You can a print version of it too, and it actually shows you know, during those months of the rut. It kind of gives you a little symbol on each day indicating when they believe that the peak of chasing and seeking and breeding and tending and all that stuff will actually happen. So if you're a believer in this theory, that's kind of a cool little product. And that's what I'm looking at right now to to explain this. So here's what they say. The ret predictor is based on a model that links cyclical changes in the earth solar and lunar illumination to the white tail's reproductive cycle. Larosian Elsheimer hypothesized that sunlight and moonlight provide environmental cues that set trigger and synchronized breeding. Laros developed a computer model that uses astronomical data, field observations of running activities, and measurements of light intensity to predict rut activity. The rut predictor hypothesis that differs from conventional views. The general belief is that peak breeding north of the Mason Dixon line occurs each year about November. However, after many observations of early November rut behavior in Vermont and Maine, Laroch concluded that rut activity often felt in nearly zero by mid November. He also found the timing of peak rout activity could very year to year by as much as three weeks at any given location. So that's a little bit about their theory and basically how they come up with the date of peak breeding. They're kind of, um, what's the right word for this, I don't know. This is the way they kind of get their predictions every year is they look at the second full moon after Yeah, let make sure I get this right. Yeah, the second full moon after the autumn equinox they believe is triggering the peak and running activity. They call that moon the running moon. So every year they take a look at that second full moon after the autom equinox, and then they are able to predict when they think rutting is gonna happen because they believe that after that kind of running moon, that's when seeking and chasing starts picking up, and then a week two weeks after that is when peak breeding typically occurs. So that said, that full moon, you know, is different every year, So some years it's in October, some years is November, and this causes all sorts of funky things in the predictions. So this is the one that gets people all fired up. I am you've seen Dan every year and wired Hunt, I share those predictions from Alsheimer, and I share the information about the more traditional theory and my own thoughts and things like that, and every year I get biologists email. Not every year, but I've had several years where email or biologists have emailed me angrily saying that, you know, we shouldn't be popularizing this theory that el Shammer Laroche had because it's completely unwarranted by science, it's not backed up, it's poppy cock, etcetera, etcetera. But people swear by it, and there's these you know, observations that these guys are having that they claim show some indications that this stuff lines up and that the moon actually does have an impact. So it's quite the debate. I've heard all sorts of different takes on it. I think one of the key things for me when they, you know, when I'm reading that kind of more detailed um explanation of the theory, is that they talk about running activity. They're predicting running activity. They don't specifically say rut or they don't specifically say peaked breeding. So sometimes I wonder if we're talking about the timing of two different things. Um so so, yeah, So there's the two theories. There's the two things that people are looking at. UM, So I got a couple of things we could do, Dude, we could you know, well, what do you think about this? The rut predictions for each year. I don't know how much you pay attention on this, but I typically try to every year, you know, at the end of the season look back at the past rut and I like to look back at the product the timing predictions and say, Okay, did what I actually saw a line up in any way with the predictions? Is that? Do you ever look back at that name? I do a little bit. I do, I do a little bit. And last year, UM, I believe was was last year a late rut based off Alzheimer's So actually, no, last year was It was a pretty normal one. The running moon last year fell on November six, so based on that, they predicted that the majority of seeking behavior would pick up around oct and would continue until around the number six, and then we'd start seeing more chasing and this will continue on until around the middle of November when the tending phase will begin. This seemed like that was a typical kind of that's what I think of as your usual rut timing. Um, and that's what they predicted last year. So what did you see that line up with that? Yeah? You know, I I tell you there was in the early part the first week we saw um, you know, your young bucks out cruise. And as that week progressed the first week the first um, I would say, from November three until uh eight, with the sixth and seventh being the highest amount of movement that we saw and then kind of trick that trickled off again, um, but still seeing movement. UM. I would say that the peak fell right in line with that date. Yeah, I you know, I look at my observations. UM, I definitely did see, you know, an increase in cruising behavior in that middle of November. Um. You know, I shot my buck November six, and I was hunting with my buddy Josh the next day and we saw multiple cruising bucks. And the next day another friend of mine had a cruising buck that he got a shot at. So I mean, based on some and actually the day before that, another several days before that, another buddy of mine did so I mean, and it totally it did seem like that definitely was the case, um, that that was picking up, but I think an important thing to take note of for for you and for me and for anyone listening. Every year, when we do this, we think back, Okay, what do we see? And then we make a judgment based on just what we personally saw on you know, these theories. So if I if I kill a buck on November six, I'm gonna say, yep, he was perfectly right, because that's exactly when I saw my buck. Um. But I can't remember who said this, and maybe it was someone on the podcast, maybe not, but someone talked about fooled by randomness and the idea of that. You know, when we experience something ourselves once or twice, it might be completely random, it's not necessarily indicative of a pattern. But when we personally experience it, we tend to generalize that as a larger thing. So because we saw it ourselves once or twice, we believe that's a larger um occurrence and it might have been random. We might have been fooled by randomness, but very rarely do we ever take that into account. And so lots of times, you know, just because I saw a bucko Nomber twice or Nomber six, and I'm gonna say, yep, the predictions were right. Well, who knows what the other you know, ten million deer hunters saw during that period of time. You know, my sample size is really small, so it's hard to really look at our own personal via our own personal experience. Isn't really get a good idea, but it's it's still interesting. So and I just remembered last year there was we had really, in my opinion, was a normal, a good run, nothing crazy and nothing poor about it. Now I remember the previous year, everybody was saying, oh my god, what a horrible what a horrible rut. Now, I guess these kind of things don't make sense to me because I like to have numbers and science based, you know, make my decisions for me. And I saw the same dear movement two years ago that I did this this past year. And I don't I wouldn't say it was the best rut I've ever seen, and I'm not gonna say it was the worst rut I've ever seen. But there was deer movement, and there were there was deer getting killed in the area. There was my trail cameras were busy taking pictures, and um, I was seeing deer from the you know, dear from the tree stand. So that tells me that you know, there's obviously movement and based on the scientifics you know, the scientific prediction, the it's the rut it's happening, you know, it's it's pocketed. In my opinion, if there's hot dos in one area, that's where all the bucks are going to be. There's a rut happening at your neighbor's house, right or a party happened at you on your neighboring property, which can suck all these bucks into one area, and then your property is left as a you know, a desert. You know, it can be totally different, just a hundred yards away or half mile away, or a county away or anything like that. Umcent agree with that. And I think what you mentioned just a second ago, the fact that two years ago lots of people complained about that quote unquote bad rud or weird rut. It is interesting that that did at least popular murmurings from people. You know, lots of people were complaining about that. It did coincide with el Shammer's prediction in two thousand thirteen in which he said that the running moon was gonna fall very late that year November, which was you know, drastically laid um than typical, like in two thousand twelve, it was in October twenty nine running moon, and then last year was the November six, So this was, you know, eighteen or nineteen days later than two thousand and twelve. It was ten days later than last year. Um. And so what Laroche and Elsheimer's say is when there's this really late rutting moon, it creates something that they call a trickle rut, where there's going to be some peaks of rutting early, there's gonna be some peaks of rutting later, there's gonna be some funky things going on, um, and it's gonna be a laxa daisical rout, not the kind of running activity that any of us would would like to see. And so in two thousand and thirteen that was the case, and I think in two thousand and ten there was a quote unquote trickle rut as well, according to these predictions. And I personally did kind of see a little bit less exciting rut activity during those two years. Um. But again, you know that's just anecdotal. It's just me and in my neck of the woods and like you that it could be you know, totally different one property over. So it's just really hard for any one person to draw judgment on that because it's just so location dependent and there's all these other factors that affect what we see, not necessarily the breeding, but that what we see, and I think that is a bigger factor in hunting success than anything personally. That said, before we move on, we need to pause briefly for quick work from work sponsors of the Wired Hunt podcast, SICKA Gear. Over the past few weeks, we've been getting to know who and what Sick of Gear is all about. And today I want to ask Sick of product category leader Dennis Suck about a piece of terminology I hear a lot about from SICCA, and that is the idea of a system. So here's Dennis explaining why SIKA takes a system approach to its hunting clothing. Yeah, so I mean a system. You know, we have different layers that define our systems, and you know it starts with that base layer system. So making sure you have something that's gonna you know, with moist off your skin, provide moisture management and be able to carry it up to what that next system is. And the next part of the system is our is our mid layer or insulation. And some of them are puffy insulations and some of them are just you know, a real heavy, you know, noncompressible insulation. But so now that layer has to be able to take that moisture that I bring off the skin and be able to move it through it and evaporate if it needs to be. It needs to provide a thermal element um and it needs to provide me the versatility I need to maybe be my hunting piece at some point in the day. And then you kind of move that out of where system. And that out of our system is your your most protective layer, and a lot of people that is their clothing system. But really there's other two are really important, you know, in that outer where is whether it's protecting from the rain, the wind, or um any kind of the elements. UM, it's you know, it's your last line of defense, and it's the thing that stopping all the things that's coming to you or coming into you, or you know, the other pieces are about moving things away from you, your moisture and protecting you. And we're maintaining that warmth that that micro climate we talked about and insulating your body. So those are that you know, it's the bass layer, it's the mid layer, and it's the outerwear piece, and and you know your system over your hunting could be combinations of all those, but bass layer is one that's pretty uncompromising. If you have one you like, and it's the most misunderstood that needs to at least be if it's sick or not, make sure you have a wicking layer. Make sure it has some sense control aspect. And now back to the show. I I feel that the standard with a scientific the scientific breeding season is the most steadfast piece of information that that we have. The other predictions are kind of yes, their their their theories, right, which have, in my opinion, a little bit less scientific backing, because giant box are getting killed every year, right, and as hunters, that's what that's what we look four as you know, as kind of I guess, uh, what's the word I'm trying to I'm trying to think of a word here that will help. Let's see, as hunters, we we kind of determined, you know, I guess now it's Facebook or people killing gear at certain times a year will help us determine, you know, if the rut has been successful or not. You know, Joe blow on one property kills a deer November five, He's going to say that, you know, November five was the best it was the best day of the year. And then a guy on November tent kills another deer. He's going to say that the tent was when all honesty, you better be in in a tree the first two weeks and maybe even later of November. Yeah, yep, yep, I I'm right there with you. Um So I wanna I want to pick your brain a little bit more about your overall thoughts on it, and then I'm gonna give him my final opinion on what I think. What is is this year? This year's early though, right, that was exactly what I was going to bring it. Next is what the el Schemer Laroche predictions say for this year. The second full moon after the Automcronox, the quote unquote running moon this year is October, so that is early. So according to these theories or this theory, major sinking behavior. So again, for for those listening that maybe aren't familiar with this terminology, these are kind of some basic categories given to dear behaviors that tend to happen in a sequential order, but not really. I mean, this stuff is happening, it's it's varied all over the place. You might have, you know, in November ten, you might see a buck breeding a doll. Same day you might see a buck starting the cruise, and you might see another buck that's chasing a doll. These things are happening at different times all over the place. But um but for the sake of these theories and this kind of um rot prediction that el Schemer Laroche are doing, they've categorized things in these buckets. So seeking is when buck start to do some cruising, and then the next phase, which should sort of be happening after that cruising behavior begins, will be the chasing. So that's when does are getting close enough to est the bucks are actually chasing them. And then finally there's the tending phase, which is when the actual brading is happening. So with that terminology understood, the predictions say that major seeking behavior should pick up around October twenty, so that's super early compared to some of the other years. Continue until around October seven, when major chasing should begin and this peak and writing activity will continue around until November three, when the tending phase supposed we will be kicking into gear continuing on through the tenth So, like you said, Dan, that's a lot earlier than many of the other predictions in past years have been. Um. And it's earlier than the traditional viewpoint, which um, you know, as we've talked about, peak brading usually happens in the middle of November, with those two weeks leading up to it being when most of your seeking, chasing, etcetera is happening. Um. Yeah, So that's that's what they're saying for this year. Yeah. I you know, it's hard because I don't want to believe. I don't want to believe some of this stuff because I feel that some people can get two worked up about it and and just kind of historical, historical, historical data, in my opinion, is probably the best to go by with with that that first two weeks in November historically being when hunters need to take their vacation. So what this what this baroque in Alzheimer's or whatever his name is, ahem, yeah whatever his Uh, those guys predictions are are now going to have guys going should I take the first last week of October, in the first week in November off work too, or one or the other, you know, and then what happens is you're sitting there and maybe the weather hasn't changed yet, and then you're you're dealing with running activity outside of daylight hours still and because you know, as we know, even into the first week in November, it can get hot and it can get and that can shut it down in my opinion, whether it can control or rut. And these deer are just they're they're not going to move in daylight hours. Yeah, I think here here's my take on all this. I think that and again, you know, I share both of these theories, and I think to your point, there is a risk of that. You know, sometimes these things might send people going down a wormhole and get people confused or you know, change their vacation dates because they follow these theories. And I can't claim to know, you know, one way or the other. But based on everything I've read and everyone I've talked to, and the people that are a lot smarter than me, who you know, share research and data, I like you would be in the camp of you know the fact that the peak of breeding is consistent year in and year out based on photo photo period. So the timing the amount of daylight in a you know, a given day, that change is consistent and it results in peak brooding happening somewhere around mid November, give or tape. That results in those lead preceding weeks. The week or two or two and a half weeks before that are usually when you see that slow and steady rise of activity in running related behaviors, chasing, seeking, fighting, et cetera. UM, So that's why I believe, But I am not completely saying I don't give any credit to the Alsheimer in Laros theory in that I don't have anything to back this up except for a little bit of anecdotal evidence and what people say. But I do think maybe these predictions, maybe the moon phase does impact a little bit of how much of the rutting behavior we see during daylight or how intense it is. So I'm not saying it impacts the breeding at all. I think the breeding happens the same every year year. You know, science proves that, but I'm open to the possibility that maybe the moon phase does to some degree impact how much of it, how much of the behaviors that we you know, the activity that we want to see, the chasing, the daylight movement, cruising all that. Maybe he has an impact on that. I don't know, um, some of what I see. I used to not give you care one bit about the moon phase, all right, until last year. I'm not sure who our podcast guest was, but they started talking about we talked about moon phase, so that that weekend ended up following or falling on a on a moon phase where the morning activity the moon was setting as the sun was coming up, all right, And that weekend I saw uh to shoot two mature bucks. It was like October seventeenth or something this past this past year, and I think, I, you know, I showed you the video of that big nine pointer that I had encounter with, and then another about a hundred and sixty ten pointer. Then he was a six year or five year old, and the other one was I think of a five or six year old. Two mature bocks on their feet in the mornings, okay, and tons of tons of dough activity and but not a lot of evening movement. So they they they said, you know, when that when that sun is setting as the or when the either the sun setting in the moon's coming up or the sun's rising in the moon's going down. If you have those type of scenarios, you're gonna see an increased increased deer movement. So I made sure I was out for those and that theory, as far as from what I saw from the tree stand, backed it up. And that made me a little bit more of a believer as far as dear movement is concerned. Yeah, I think come. I think it was Terry Drewy that talked to us about that. That rings a bell to me. And I think, um, you know me too, based on what he said and based on things I've you know, read it for a number of other guys, and some of the things I've been looking at. Um, I'm more and more than looking into that and trying to pay attention to it. And it might not be a huge difference, but if it's you know, ten extra minutes of daylight movement or something like that, you know, sometimes that can make the difference. Um. And so that's something I'm intrigued by. Two. Um, I think this year, like you did last year, I want to pay a little more attention to it. Maybe take better notes about what I'm seeing and see how the moon phases coinciding with that, and see if I can't come up with some better you know, observations and um conclusions based on that a little bit. But that's something that really takes years to figure out. But all that said, I think that there there's something to it, maybe when it comes to daylight movement, how much we might see or the intensity of that kind of stuff. But you know, as we both said, I don't I don't see how it could be impacting peak breeding. If science, if the biologist studies consistently, you know, show that it is not consistent with moon phase. So but like you said earlier, those two things, you know, those two you know, the scientific and laroche uh theories are are two different things, activity versus breeding. Yes, and that's like that's the important thing for people to I think too, to take note of and to remember that they're talking about two different things. And so so my personal opinion on the time of the rut is that peak breeding is consistent. But the amount of daylight activity that we might see during you know, while we're actually hunting that can be impacted by the moon phase maybe or most definitely some other factors like participation, temperature, um, even things like hunting, pressure and things that can all impact the amount of behavior rutting related activities that we you know, all um a link with the rut That stuff can be impacted by other things. I'm much more concerned about weather really personally when it comes to what kind of run activity I'm hoping to see more so than moonface. So that said, what about these other I want to talk a little about these other factors that impact the timing or maybe not the timing of, but the amount of running behavior that we see. And for me personally, Dan, I think temperature and precipitation are the two biggest factors that I've seen the impact how much running activity I see. What about you? You know, I don't know about precipitation, but I can tell you the colder it is out there, Dear. I feel that Dear getting in a way get uncomfortable, just like humans do in some of this weather. And in a way I can I can almost see him getting bored sitting in one spot, especially when there's the scent of a female in the air, and you know, instead of instead of this, um, instead of sitting down and you know, just kind of waiting it out, They're gonna feel more comfortable. They can they can run and just you know, be on their feet moving all day long. Burn you know, be more comfortable being more active because of the colder weather. And I mean this year we saw it. We saw a pretty good It's kind of hard because this November was brutal. We had a huge snow. You know, we had a lot of snow come through. We had extremely cold temperatures, way colder than normal. And uh, you know that happened like on the eighth or ninth of November, and I where I hunt. I mean, there was some good activity before then then that then that that storm came and I'm not gonna say it it drastically increased the movement, but you know we did see different deer in the area. Yeah, I uh, I mean I think that it I've I'm sure you've seen it too. I think sometimes it does drastically increase movement. Um Like for me, if I've got you know, if I have the flexibility with my timing, like if I had a week of vacation but I didn't need a book it two months ahead of time, I would almost wait until the beginning of November and look at the forecast, and I would I would, you know, no doubt about it, if you told me, all right, I will let you hunt five days, the five days when the best cold weather hits um in November. I'm not gonna tell you what those days are, but you can you can take those five best cold friend days, or you can pick some other dates. You know, I would gladly, blindly take whatever those best cold front days are in November, because I think it makes that much of an impact on the movement that we see. Um. Like, if you've got a good cold front hitting sometime in those first two weeks in November, I would drop everything and anything you're doing and make sure you're in the woods because usually especially that first one, you know, that November three, or maybe it's the eighth, or maybe it's the thirty first October or whatever it is, where when it goes from that little bit of you know, you're starting to see some increased movement, but it's nothing crazy, and then all of a sudden the cold snap hits, and then that's just when the ship hits the fan and it's like it's on. You have to be in the woods on those days. Um, because that's when things get special. Yeah, No, I I agree with that. I just I just feel that as hunters, we may we may overthink some of this stuff. Okay, we're trying to see. So far, we've talked about whether, we've talked about moon, We've talked about time in the year. We've talked about you know, when the breeding cycle is versus the moon phase, versus this, versus this. When, to be honest with you, I feel that the best intel is from being in the tree stand and running your trail cameras and making your own decision, in your own hypothesis, because you know, these scientists are hunting hunting your timber, you know, Laroche and the other guy, they're not they're not hunting your timber. And you know, some some years when I've had poor ruts, people have been talking about it was the greatest thrust they've ever had. There's there's and you you know, we preached this all the time. There's no there's there's no secret to killing big bucks, all right, There's no Um, there's no equation that you can put in that will allow you know, this plus this equals big bucks. What we what we do know is that the breeding season statistically takes place on the same time every year, and the events that lead up to that point, in the events that we are after that point are the best times to be in the timber true story. And I think the for me, the consistent thing is be in the woods as many days as you possibly can during that window, for for as many hours as you possibly can if you have to. You know, if you only have a few days, then looking at these other factors becomes important. You know, if you only can hunt four days, then you might want to try to be a little bit more particular about picking the right four days. And that's when I would start saying, Okay, here's when you know, this is the two weeks leading up to the peak of breeding, all right, So I'm gonna look in that window. And then if your believer in the moon face stuff, maybe you want to see what he's saying. Maybe not, It's up to what you believe. And then for sure, I'd be paying attention to the weather and if I can, if I can land those four days related to some kind of weather event that should help pick things up, you know, then that could hopefully help you out but then like you said, Dan, there's there's so many other things. There's you know, what's person, what's happening on your you know, specific property which might be different than other places. There's you know, herd dynamics can make a big difference in the amount of running activity that we see, you know, like property where you might hunt right food sources and make a big difference. If there's you know, standing corn, that's going to change what you see. Lots of times people think that a lot of the daily activity happens in the thick you know, the corn corn where we can't see anything. Um, let's let's do this. Let's do this once, Mark Kenyon, you have four days to hunt. Okay, let's talk about number one being the most important on down what what are the decision the decision making what's going to cause you to say, I'm going to take these four days. So for example, time of year, moon phase, weather and so on. So put put put your your top whatever in order, and you don't have to sign up for your vacation days early. You have four days to hunt, all right. So I am going to say, first I'm looking at the dates between November one. In November twelve or November thirt somewhere on there, and then I'm gonna pick the four days where I get the cold snap. So I'll probably pick the first big cold from the hits. I want to be hunting the two to three days after that, and then if there's another good cold snap maybe ten days later, maybe it warms up the next cold snap, I want to be hunting those that day or the next day. Um. Really, that's all I need to look at. The moon phase is interesting to me, barometer is kind of interesting to me. Um. All the different things are are interesting, and I'm curious about them, and I think there might be something to them. But if all I had to look at were date, the time of the year, and the weather the temperature, that's enough for me. Um. I guess the only other thing I would say is, I do you know, as I've talked about before in earlier episodes, at least in areas of high hunting pressure a lot of the places I hunt, I do think light precipitation does increase dear movement, at least because you've got cloud cover and you've got maybe a little precipitation, and usually that's you know that coincides with a weather front, a temperature change, and a pressure change, and I think that's overall, whether it's the fact that there's rain, or it's the cloud cover, or it's the pressure change or whatever it is, when a front comes through that has precipitation, not a huge storm necessarily, but some type of precipitation. I do think that helps. So for me, when I'm in that November time frame, I'm looking at the weather obsessively and I'm hunting every day no matter what. You know, I'm going to be in the woods all day, every day during that period, assuming I can you know, can make it work. Um. But I'm still paying attention to that weather because when I have that front head where the temperature drops out and I get a little light rain, that is when I'm going to make sure I'm in my best spots. Um. You know, that's a big part of how I adjust my rout strategy. Of course, I'm taking into you know, actual observations that's gonna affect where I hunt, trial camera pictures, that's gonna affect what I hunt, where I hunt. But I'm also you know, being careful about when I hunt my best spots, even if it's the best time of year, that first two weeks of November. If it's seventy five degrees and it's November three, should be a great day. But if it's seventy five, like you said, Dan, Um, that's gonna shut down a lot of the daylight movements. So I'm not necessarily wanting to go and blow out hunting a great dough betting area. Um. So I'm gonna be pay attention to precipitation and weather and on those best days, those four best days, like you, you you know, asked me, those are days where I'm gonna go in early to my very best spots and I'm going to be in the woods all there. Right. If I had to pick four days without being a look at the weather, if you had, if you had me have to predict right now, what four days I want to hunt. If I couldn't know anything else except for just the dates, I would tell you I want to be out there on the tree November four, five, sixth, and seventh, or maybe maybe fifth, I'd say, right around there between the if I had to pick. It varies, of course, but make sure your damn well better being the tree from the fourth of November through like the tenth of November. That time just for me has been consistently great. Anything I had to be somewhere in that time from that's what I do. So that's me. What about you, if you had to pick four days now, I'd be curious to hear what that would be. And then if you could be flexible and you could look at things, what would those criteria b All right? So I'll just do the same thing that you did. All right. So obviously we're talking about the first first you know, the first thing would be dates, you know, based off off of the traditional breeding cycle type ut first two weeks in November. All right. So over the years, I'll tell you, I've seen a ton of good deer uh somewhere around the up until um, the first in November. There's it's almost like there's an early movement. They're not chasing their up and it's almost like they are they're making their territory boundaries. These bucks are they're up working scrapes, they're up, you know, making sure they're going to all their traditional places that they've gone the years before, and they're letting every other animal know, every other deer in the area, knowing I am here. Okay. Then they go you know, they go to their food sources, but they're they're actually going out of their way to lay down sent on trees and on scrapes. Then what happens is, and this is from my experience, I see a little bit of a let off probably from November one, second, third, fourth, somewhere in that area where there's I hate the word law because I'm not I'm not gonna use it, but it slows down a little bit. And that's when you start seeing your you're one twos, three year olds up and I'm speaking on the properties that I hunt are up and moving all right. And then that fifth, sixth, seven, eight, and and and further on you start seeing the bigger, more mature deer. So with that said, if I could hunt four days, I would probably lean towards the eighth, ninth, tenth, and eleventh of November traditional like, based off what I've seen from the tree, and and focus on on those days. Now, granted, if if weather came through, I would I wouldn't want to try to be in the timber right before the cold front. It's and after the cold front heads, so that that evening, let's say a stormfront is is moving in the distance or overnight ones one's coming and you've got to be in the timber twenty four hours before it hits, and then the whole twenty four hours after. That's just when I've seen the deer on their feet. They're feeding aggressively to prepare for you know what. You know, these deer they sit on their bellies if the weather is bad, like if it's raining or if it's snowing heavy, they're they're hunkered down and they just don't move. So that's why they feed on before that and on the rut. That's when you're gonna see if if the weather coincides with those four days that I just talked about, you're gonna see the big boys start following the dose to the food sources or they're ahead of them and their scent checking them down wind. And that is that is what I am going to base my based my four days on. All Right, I like it. That all makes a lot of sense. I'm going to take it one step further. Okay, I want you to predict your date this coming year of the best running activity you can see. This is, of course we can't actually do this, but I just want to throw us out. Tell me, what is your prediction for the best day of the rut for you this coming season? Give me a date. Well, it's not gonna be November six, seven, or eight, because I'll be at my brother's wedding. I forgot about that. Yeah, right, I don't know what I'm gonna do, Like I'm gonna be sweating like a heroin addict who's going through rehab, and I'm gonna be I'm gonna be tweet or texting you the entire time with pictures and updates from what's happening in the stand right right, it's almost cruel, like, I don't know how I'm gonna act. I'll probably my wife's gonna hate me because I'll be like, let's go, come on, let's go. I gotta I gotta go, I gotta go, We gotta go. I might even try to find a place to hunt up there. Now are you? Are you still gonna stay out and have a good time that night after the wedding. Are you gonna get at home early so you can hunt earlier next morning? Well, it's the wedding is six hours away from where hunt. Yeah, yeah, so bullet to my brain. Okay, but I feel that, you know, although I said that, I almost said that the Laroche magic being approach, you know, versus the scientific approach. I've seen consistency in what they've said, just like you, you know, just like you, I've seen I've seen some kind of consistency. So whether whether there it's just a guess and it's magically you know, aligning. Hey mean, it's aligning. So I'm going to say that my best four days hunting this year, or that's what you wanted four days, right, I wanted one day one day. Okay, it's gonna be my birthday, November five, all right, I like it. I'm going to predict my date will be November seven, November while I'm while I'm at a wedding eating green bean casserole. You're going to be in a tree stand, drawing back on a giant. Now, you gotta tell me what state is. You're hunting multiple states, so what state? Yeah, so that's still a little bit up in the air. But I think I think I'm going to be in Iowa at that time. I think it's kind of tricky. I think I'm gonna be in Iowa. The first part November, So like October thirty one through the seventh maybe or the sixth, six or seventh, it's gonna be right around that time for him. And then the next day go to Ohio and hunt there from like the eight to um or somewhere around there. That's so it could be. It could be the state. I'm not sure. It depends on It depends on how everything works out. But and I just want to let everybody know that I don't just get like, I don't get aggressive, and I don't in my opinion, I don't think our listeners should either. Granted, everybody has and we say this all the time, everybody has different situations that they're in, right, But I I plant. I I like to align myself where I could potentially kill a mature buck every hunt I go on. Now there are hunts where if my trail cameras and my intel are not showing that the chances of me running into a mature buck are high, I'm gonna go hunt somewhere else and try to kill a dole. But if I'm showing showing a deer crossing this area at a certain time or walking in front of a trail came at a certain time when I see him from an observation stand at a certain time, I'm not I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna go in and make a move. And if that's October one, or if that's November fifth, I'm going to do it. Yeah, there's something to be said about that. I think it's sort of related to or someone to something you mentioned earlier in the show, when you mentioned that late October time frame. I just want to speak about that time frame, um, just because you got me thinking about just now. Um. But to your point, Dan, if if you have the intel, and especially if you know that a mature that a buck that you're targeting is in an area that he calls this area his core home range somewhere in that you know he's on your property to some degree consistently. And then especially if you have some kind of intel like you said, Dan, that indicates he's moving in daylight during that late October time period, that is possibly the best time in my opinion, to kill a specific buck because because at that time, just like you said earlier, these deers start moving a little more during daylight. They start you know, checking out scrapes, they start checking out the does to a degree, they're not you know, they're not chasing does yet for the most part, they're not you know, ranging all over the place, you know, going to far reaching areas. Yet they're still hanging out in their core area. They're just moving a little bit more during daylight, the ruts just starting to get them feeling a little bit up in Annie. So at that time frame, in my opinion, you've gotta strike if you know that the iron is hot, because if you don't, if you wait to go into there until November five or eighth or whatever, they might be chasing does a mile away or something. You know, at that point, all the patterns are out the window to most, you know, for the most part. Um, So for me, if if I get to that last week in October, and if I have got that information, have got some intel that indicates he could be you know, he's consistently in the area, and then for me, really the kicker again as that as it always is for me, if I get a all front the hits boom, I'm going in there after him because I think, um, that's a dynamite time to to do one of those what I kind of what I heard from someone and I No, I would like to say, is this drone strike type hunt where you get all the information, you get all the intel, and then you strike hard and fast right when you think the going is good. So that's not really related to rut prediction theories, but that's an important thing to remember, is that the best hunting, not not always, is going to be those two weeks in November. Sometimes it can be leading up to it, but you know, and that's the pre rut, which in my opinion is part of the up. Yeah, so you know, I almost I almost think of it as do you remember in grade school you had these chemicals that were in like a rectangular case and they're just different layers in in the layer because they had different a different molecular structure and if you shake it up and then they would slowly go back to seeing layers again, do you do you know what I'm talking about? Like oil and water? Right? Yeah, oil and water. Right, So I almost think of it like like that. All right, you have oil and water and that's for the most part all of October. Right. You can pattern a deer pretty easy. Um, if you had the right utensils and had the time to do so, then the then like the beginning of the rut, hits right and you shake it up and it's it's complete chaos in the woods. Bucks are are jockeying for dominance, dose are in somewhat still of a pattern, but are affected by this this new pressure from these deer, from these bucks going crazy in the woods. Then you know, a hierarchy is reached. Bucks start knowing who. You know this, you know, Fred versus Joe versus Brandy. You know, they know who who, Who's who, they know who's dominant. And then it all kind of settles down again and the big bucks get their doughs, they go do what they do, and then the you know, there's there's a there's kind of of the chaos lessons in my opinion, and and it lessons although there's a lot of activity running around and stuff, there's still some there's less chaos towards towards that that end of that second week of November. I don't know if that makes sense. In my head, it did, but I think that's how most things are for you, Dan, right, No, I I hear what you're saying. I think another important thing to note, um, you know, because I think to your point you know, based on some of the data we've been talking about, a lot of that breeding, at least in the areas that we hunt, is happening during the middle of November, and so there's gonna be a little bit of a letdown in regards to the running around chaos because there's a lot more bucks para double dough is breeding. But I think another, um, slightly less heralded time of the year for success, especially on big mature box is a week week and half after that period, um that I've just started to, you know, see some some increased activity being that you know, November. Um. You know, from what I've heard from people, you know, with more experience than me, and from what I've seen too, is especially the mature, the really mature bucks, they tend to get back up on their feet after they did a lot of their breeding in middle of November. They tend to get back up one more time and cruise a little bit more towards that last period of time because they know there's going to be another door or two that still would be receptive. Um. So I've had some some good activity and I've seen I've had some good encounters. I had an encounter with Jawbreaker two years ago on November I think UM at one or two o'clock in the afternoon, UM during that time period. So it's definitely worth getting back out there and hunting that late November period because you can still see some of that cruising activity. UM. So something to keep in mind as well. And and so what we've discussed today is a four week period, okay, and and and guys out there, you know, especially from you know, the Nine Finger Chronicles talking to people and I'm you know, talking through the wire to hunt um podcast, and I'm sure you know, guys don't have four weeks vacation. Guys don't have three weeks vacation. Guys barely have two weeks of vacation, you know. The guys I talked to, Hey, I got five days of vacation I can use for hunting. The rest go to the family, or I don't get anything else. So it's it's so hard to tell you the listeners right now, have you have got to do your research, watch that, watch those weather patterns and know if you're in the Midwest, you know, because we didn't even talk about the South, and I don't feel comfortable talking about the South, because I've never hunted to the south and they have. They have a rut, what's like December and January. It's it's regional for everything, understand it. It's different in different areas. And there's also crazy stuff. So yeah, I'm sorry to everyone in the southern parts of the country that me and Dan can't give you any more helpful information. But I can say that the Larosian al Shimer do offer some thoughts on that, um, so check out their their calendar. I would say the principles are the same, though you don't yes and no though um because like there's from what I'm reading and stuff there, it's not necessarily consistent, like they don't. There's not a consistent peak breeding in most or in all areas down there at least, um. But I can't speak to I don't even understand it myself well enough. But there is some literature out there. There are a number of articles I've read, So go out there and do some googling, um, and you can probably hear from someone who knows more than me. But it's a whole, another whole, another issue. Watch the time of here, watch the weather, if you believe in the moon, watch the moon and make your move. Yeah. Yeah, I think if if anything else, or if nothing else, spend as many hours in the trees you possibly can during you know, during November, in the last week of October. In my opinion, if you've got the vacation time, if you can pull it off, be in the tree. Um. If I had to pick a time, you know, we already talked about those days. If I had to pick a date, if I had an arrow down, it's say, give me the first two weeks in November. Um. But it's different everywhere. There's lots of factors. But like you said, Dan, you gotta pay attention to the weather and do the best you can and uh, put your butt in the tree. And if you're like if you're like Dan, hunting all day is a tough thing to do, but try to do it because I think it does. It can help, especially when we sit here and we dream about hunting all day or all year in February, in April, in June, in August, when the ruts on, spend as much time as you possib we can be out there. Because I know that in February you were dreaming of being in that tree stand. So take advantage of the time when you got it. Yeah, buddy, I mean, and it just hit me. It's just like, oh my god, if you're hardcore like we are, just just I really wish I had to stop watch for every time I did something hunting related or thought about something hunting related. How much actual time that I consume doing this. It's crazy And we don't want to document that because our wives would not be happy. Yeah, I'm glad my wife doesn't listen to this podcast. For a while, I had my wife helped me edit these podcasts, and I shut that down real quick when she started hearing what we talked about. So so yeah, um, I'm stoked. I am every every episode we say it. But I'm just getting more and more excited. And uh, it's gonna be here before we know it, right, I mean, I have to, like, I have to stare, step my stell myself right because I just took my bow to the shop because my kisser button flew off and now my peep site has been rotating in my string all right, so that sucks, and I gotta get that all that set up again. I got my arrows fletched, all right. I have a target set up in my backyard. Now I can shoot up to like forty yards and then I have to move it to shoot up to sixty and uh. And you know, I'm getting in shape for our mule deer hunt and I'm checking trail cameras for white tails, you know. So I got a weak planned in September for me and you to go up into Idaho mountains and chase a mule leaves. And then we got I'm gonna have like a vacation, a wedding in a vacation for hunting, and it's gonna it's kind of it's kind of a blessing in disguise because that second at the beginning of that second week, you know how exhausted we are. It's the grind hits you and it's just like, oh my god, why am I doing this to myself? You know? And then you see a big bucket makes it all better. But I think that might actually help me until I go check my trail cameras and there's a giant standing in front of my tree stand at forty yards while I'm giving a best man speech. That will be that will be brutal. Yep. Yeah, well, hopefully you'll you'll kill big one just before just after that and uh maybe uh maybe I will too. Could be a good year facts back years from Mark Kenyon. I hope, so we'll see. I'm hoping for two this year. I want to get one down in Iowa and Ohio. That's my goal. So that's my goal. Well, I think, yeah, thank you. I think it's time to shut this down though, because I've got the new uh white tail Madness devity you know, ice cold beer with my name on it waiting for me. So I'm gonna say, let's close up shop, end this episode. I think it's episode sixty one. Um so with said a couple updates again. We mentioned it last week, but f y I. Wired Hunting details are now available for sale at wired hunt dot com slash shop. Check those out. They're pretty cool. If you haven't left a review yet for the podcast and you have some thoughts and feedback on it, we would love to hear from you. You can do that on iTunes or feel free to tweet us. Um you know my Twitter handles at Wired Hunt Uh Dan's is what's your Twitter handle? Again? Uh? Fort Worth nine fingers? There you go hit us up on Twitter. We love hearing from you there or on Facebook. Um, when I post this podcast blog on our Facebook page Wired or Facebook dot com slash Wired Hunt, I want to hear your predictions for the best four days of the RUT, so I'll ask that question on Facebook. We want to hear from you. Give us your predicted best four days for the two thousand fifteen RUT. Would be interested to see if they match up at all of what me and Dan said. So that all said, before we shut things down, have to thank our partners who helped make this podcast possible. So big. Thank you too, Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, Huntera, maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots, and the White Tail Institute of North America. Thank you to them, and thank you for supporting those companies who helped make the wartime possible, for the white podcast possible. And finally, thank you, guys and girls all for joining us. I hope you're as excited as me and Dana are about the RUT. And uh, you know, like Dan said, there's lots of work to do, so get out there, get ready, and of course, as always, stay wired to Hunt.