00:00:00 Speaker 1: Oh hey, and welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. This happens to the episode number seventy four, getting well on into August. We are joined today by a bunch of cool guests. We have the one, the only, the Magical Man of the Mountain, Remy Warren. We also have Phill the Engineer, and we did a lot of talking about Remy's new podcast called Cutting the Distance here on the Mediator Network. Subscribe to that sucker right now. And we did a lot of talking about what it means a podcasts, and we did we did some dramatic readings of internet comments, some negative and some positive. I hope you like that as well. And then the interview segment of the show we started talking about Boone and Crockett Club. It's history, history of fair Chase, the history of trophy measurements, all of that with Keith Balford from Boone and Crockett Club. It was a great and interesting conversation, so hang on for that. But before we get to it, we're gonna talk about the new Men's Solitude system from First Light. This is for all us, specifically for all of you white Tail fanatics out there, those of you who like to sit up and trees all day during the fall, which I do. Uh. This is a system that includes a top and the bottom. Both of them are fitted with three thirty seven point five synthetic installation. They're silent, they're durable, they're they're also DWR treated to propel moisture. They've got a really neat little fleece line chest muff you put your hands in, and these little zipper pockets in putting right in the chestmuff. So when you're staying all day, you guys know that your hands is the first thing to get cold. He's got full stip legs preventing and all that fun stuff. So if you're a white tail fanatic, go to first light dot com and check out the men's solitude system and a pretty cool video by none other than our own Mark Kenyon. At least he's the voiceover of that. So go first light dot com check it out without further ado, Episode seventy four, Let's go. I guess I grew up on an older road, a pedal to the meadows. I always did what I told until I found out that my brand new clothes a game second hand from the rich kid's next door and I grew up baths. I guess I grew up. I mean, they have a thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted through a real bad dream or being in like I'm coming a fart of it seems, But thank you Jack Daniels. Do know, Hey, everybody, Episode seventy four of The Hunt Collective. I've been o Brian as always and it's you're gonna hear this on thirteen nineteen, and Hunting season is is barreling toward us like a wave on an island in Hawaii. I say, Hawaii, No, yeah, you can say whatever you want. Hunting season is getting close. It is really Mulier tags, oh Man, antelope tags. I got a few early season Mulier tags an antelope hunt and planning, and then it's and then it's the super Bowl of the archery season. L you're listening to the voice, the sweet velvet voice of Remy Warren. That's a good time for me to play. Remy Warren, host of the brand new podcasts on the Media Network called Cutting the Distance. Yes, how are you feeling about that round? I'm really excited? What I really am excited? About is uh. Yeah, he just get some get some info out there, tell some stories, share some stuff, and hopefully people like it. Yeah, we've been working on this for a long time. Um, it seems like a very long time. It's finally out in the world. Before podcasts even existed, were working on this in the early nineties, when we were eight and ten years old, respectively. I have like a little plastic recorder just listening to childhood tastes and finally one of those play schools with the built in like the Talkboy from My Way, I should find that there's probably some pretty good podcast episodes buried on that. Well, finally it's out in the world. The first episode was about missing the biggest buck of your life, a giant, big, fat meal deer buck. Big Buck, big Buck. Tell us a little bit about that story. What they might hear if they go go over and listen to cutting the Distance, Yeah, I think, well, you'll hear the story of one of the biggest DearS I have, DearS I have ever encountered. And the cool thing about that story is, although I did not actually get that dear, I learned a lot that I've taken with me many days into the field, and that's the thing, and you should learn something from every hunt you go on, and if you aren't, you aren't doing it right. So I really like to be able to tell some stories that someone whom I've never told before a lot most of them, and so you get that entertainment factor, but then you get a little takeaway of some stuff you can do to be a better hunter and things that I've learned just along the way just being out there hunting, guiding in the outdoors. Yeah, I think everyone here, Ronella, myself and everyone included would put you at the top of the top of hunters we've ever met at least or hunted with and so and thinking of this podcast, it's like, man, what's the best person to to have, you know, like a really core tips and tactics podcast. That's how we originally came at and then as it morphed along, we're like, we gotta have stories in there because they're so connected to the actual activity, and there's you couldn't have tips and tactics without these experiences and connecting the two things, I think is what this is about. For sure, you learned so much through Hunters are great at telling stories. We all have our hunting stories, and I think about some of the things that I've learned, and it's just been from stories from friends or grandparents, parents, just hunting stories, and you you remember those things, you know, you'll probably learn more from the story than the actual tip. And that's that's the goal, be entertained and be a better hunter. Yeah, and that's we were talking about that earlier. I mean, I think it's just like being able to young Phil over here. He's got he's got magic sounds like that he can put with with the storytelling that make them that really suck in. I think it's important to be kind of feel like you're there, understand these scenarios, and then next you know, the next time that you go through missing, the next time you see a giant muelder buck guaranteed to be thinking of that arrow flying over the back of the big giant. Yeah. Anytime you can take something, and I do it all the time. There's so many things that I've learned a lot of a lot of hunting learning is through trial and error. But if you don't have the time to go out every day of the season, you you can get your trial and error through my trial and you know, or through friends or articles. There's so many places to gain experience, even today while even not being out there. So you can take those lessons and you'll be presented with a similar scenario and you'll say, well, at least I've got some ideas on how I should properly act in this situation. Yeah. And this goes way way back to really when hunting media began and people started communicate about hunting. That's what it was. That's what the communication was. It's like, here's my experiences. Here's a feature story about you know, Fred Bayer going out on a hunt. But then also here's how to do a thing that I'm doing. That's been the way hunters have communicated for as long as we've been communicating in print form, at least, you know, I mean think about cave art. Yeah, it's just scratching hunting stories, arrow animals hunted me, yeah, meat fire Yeah. And then you'll see, you know, especially in our networker podcast, this one included. We do some silly things on this show and we do some real serious things. And part of thinking about building a network of podcasts that are all interrelated in some ways to is to make sure they all are complemented of each other and your show, I feel at least really dives down to like the core of how we talk to each other. We tell stories, we provide tips and information, and that's like, that's what hunting communication is, and that's what it's kind of always been. And so we have a lot of we do a lot of different things. We have Callahan who just talks about in a zoology and random you know, mice infestations to Disney World or whatever he's talking about over there, what you're doing. I'm glad to see it because it's just that kind of a core exercise and what we do. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. So I hope people check it out, enjoy it, subscribe to it. Head over there. Should be coming out weekly, so weekly. We're already rocking. We're rocking through some episodes. Right after this, we're gonna record some and we've got the second episode you go through the bear attack on the falk Neck Island and then gives some tips about safety in the bear woods and how to understand why a bear might attack you. Yeah, I think there's uh even if you think I'm not gonna be l hunting anytime soon, well, first you should go LK hunting, but second there's an entertainment factor outside of just the tips that you can take as well. A lot of these tips can be translated to a lot of different things in different places where you hunt. So it would behoove you behoove you to check it out. Please share now. And one thing that I wanted to do to help prepare you for podcast life because it's your first podcast, right that Yeah, I've had a podcast for some time now and it comes with some good and some bad, uh right, Phil, I mean I haven't been in the line of fire as much as you have so far, but I would assume yes, you've probably seen some some some good and bad. Yes, we've seen some good and bad. And so I figured, and this is also in the in the frame up. Last night I was watching celebrities read mean tweets and Jimmy Kimmel find out to be hilarious. So I figured, why not do have Phill the engineer read some mean some mean comments about this show is gonna get you. This is either going to be a winner and be they're gonna love it, or it's gonna be the most awkward time we've all had together. What do you think? Whatever you want to do? Alright, so it's never gonna happen on cutting the distance. Here we go, We're gonna start the music. Mm hmm. Not provide Phil now with first comment to read? Phil, read it in your best and most theatrical voice. Take it away, Phil. I listened to podcasts all day at work, and I was starting to run out of content, so I subscribed to th HC. I love the other meat Eater folks, so I assumed i'd love this too. Wrong. O'Brien is just that guy who gets under your skin as soon as you hear his voice. I can't put my finger on why he is so annoying, but he is unbearable. He tries to be funny but fails, and he is hanging on so tightly Tonella's coattails that I get embarrassed for him. I just can't force myself to stomach this podcast. That guy should meet you in real life. Okay, stop reading the ship kidding, just joking. I feel like that was I like this new segment. I got chills. Let's read. Let's read a good one, alright. Lets you gotta do like I compliment sandwich Okay, we'll get a good one going here, and there's I mean, listen, I love all the commentary, even that one. The title of that one that you just read. Just awful, just awful. Alright, alright, Philly, want me to get to the music I want again for you? Yeah, it helps a lot. All right, here we go, Phil this one. Read this one. It's called top five best hunting podcasts in the world. This is in the top five of all hunting podcasts being produced on the planet. Not by viewership recognition, industry respect or anything tangible like that. Actually it's still relatively obscure, meaning you can start listening now and then tell everyone how much better it was before quote everyone started listening and Ben sold out. Unquote he will. He's a total hipster scum, might even be a green decoy. But the kid is going places, and you shouldn't miss this opportunity to capitalize on his eventual takeover of the hunting podcast segment. Honestly, though, it's an extremely thoughtful look at hunting and what makes our lifestyle so rewarding and complicated. The show doesn't take itself too seriously, but the topics covered are often crucial, controversial, and consequential pause for a little moment of silence to think about what we've just heard. And we're back, and we're back. Well, that was a good one. I don't know if the music really fit um the positive review. I'm just digging the music. I thought it was. It leaves the viewer to decide all things. Some things considered with Ben O'Brien and the Hunting Collective, some things, a couple of things considered. This is the world you're breaking into, Remy. It's a bitter sweet cocktail of emotions. M h, what are you feeling about? I quit? That's it. That's it. We'll see you guys later. Well, now that we've gone through that emotional time, we're gonna get pretty soon to our interview segment. And that's Keith Balford from the Boone and Crockett Club. We're gonna go through. We go through the history of fair Chase in the history kind of the Boone Crockett Club, and it's an influence on conservation in the Grand Old Country of America. But you were telling me, Remy, that Keith measured one of your biggest bucks of all time? Is that correct? I think so. If I remember correctly. Let's see what's that buck about. Uh that was the one that I got in Montana with my bow and uh, yeah it was. That was a really cool hunt. We talked about that a little bit with Keith, Like the difference of you know, they're pushing Boone and Crockett kind of has this arborter not arborter, but at least microphone for fair chase and these conversations. Many people traditionally see it just as a record keeping Dude, Boone and Crockett. I haven't listened to this yet, but I Boone and Crockett club has done some pretty cool stuff. Um, there's a place actually in Nevada, the Sheldon Wildlife analo refuge antelope were saved because of the Boone and Crockett Club. Like it just hunters getting together saying we need to regulate, like we need to regulate this pretty much from commercial hunting. And then the record keeping is just a form. I see it as a form of really showing the progress of where the genetics have gone. It's it's a measurable it's something measurable, and you just compare apples to apples, and yeah, it's not fair that you're this way a score is you're taking, you're deducting from a grow. It's just behind beside all that stuff. It's really cool to just be able to see, you know, the changes over time. And I think, I don't know, maybe if somebody else has brought this up, but I honestly think right now is the good old days. It's the good It's just there's more game. There's bigger animals according to our measurement system or the Boone and Crockett type measuring system. Now maybe they're different, and just the advancements of technology and hunting tactics have changed which you make it. I don't know. There's just it's you look through that and it's just like, man, there's some cool stuff going on right now, Oh my god. And it's a good success story. It's still fraught with lots of issues, but it's never it's never not going to be, you know, fraught with all types of issues when it comes to wildlife management and ecosystems. But they're, like I said, there's more opportunity than ever. There's a movement for public lands and access, there's a movement for better wildlife management. There's a movement to educate people about what hunting has been. And when you listen to Keith talk about the Boon and Crack Club, you'll suddenly forget that they've ever measured a bone in their life, they ever measured an antler in their life. You'll forget that because there's so much there's so much weight behind the history of that club that you you almost say, well, if I'm gonna tell the story been a crack club, I wouldn't almost the trophy scoring aspect is a footnote to what they've done and what they meant for conservation. So Keith is a good was a good arbor of kind of like what's important and why? Uh? In that conversation And you know, like I said in your podcast, you talk about the biggest buck. You make some good compents in your first podcast about you know why, Yeah, it's the biggest block I've ever seen, But like, why is it important to me to go chase that? You know, I love a good big buck just like the next guy. But there's something about you know, if you think about it, you're like you're hunting one deer or a certain deer, you actually get more hunting experience, Like for me to chase what would be considered h if I'm looking for like a deer that is a good scoring or like what would Boone and Crocker would consider a big buck. It's just puts restrictions on me of what I'm hunting for and allows me to be in the field longer and that more time spent in the field. If I don't fill my tag, that's just time acquired, like experience gained, which overall makes me a better hunter. Yeah. No, And it's looking from the outside in, people might think, well, he's just chasing big islands, but it's just that's just not what it is. I mean, you are, but it's not the only thing that matters. Now, it's me. It's chasing the arians. And it's hard to get that experience if you go home on the first day because those bigger deer are harder to find and harder to get, and a lot of times you're like, I'm just gonna go after one type of buck. You're probably gonna go home empty handed. You're probably gonna hunt the whole dang season, and during that season you're gonna learn so much about what you're chasing that you know it's gonna make it even easier next time, for sure. All the things you do. You know, you just got back from Muflan hunt. You have been in Lithuania this year, Australia, Lithuania, get there, right, Yeah, but I was hunting in the UK and then Australia and New Zealand everywhere. All have lots of different places. What's the pinnacle for you right now? Like, what's the pinnacle hunting experience? M Because I don't mean, I don't think there's anybody that I know that haunts is hard and as long as you do in different places. So I really like obviously I really like sheep sheep, mountain goat type hunts um because of the terrain. It's the country that you get to go in, and I feel like it's a really rare opportunity. So when you get those opportunities, it's just it's special because you don't I mean, there's a lot of times, you know, that's the kind of hunt that I want to go on, whether it's just a friend draws the tag or whatever, because you don't get those opportunities that often. So anytime I get that kind of opportunity, I'm pretty excited. But one thing that I do love is chasing high country meal dear early season with my bow. That's um, there's just something about it. I love that high, high desert, high alpine type stuff. Whether it's Nevada or Montana or wherever I do, it doesn't matter. I love that high country type hunting. And then I mean, I've made my living since graduating high school as an Elk guide. So for me, calling Elk is the besknees. I love calling Elk for people I'd rather actually call Elk. That's the best part about bow season is calling Elk. I love and you I'm gonna do some episodes, some podcast episodes on calling Elk or you will understand my hashion, my philosophies, and maybe it's I hope it's stuff that nobody has heard before from other people because the way I elt call I was taught by the Elk. I know, I went out there and I did not really listen to I just I just started learning from the elchem and mimicking that. And so I probably have some techniques that I do that a lot of people probably think or I don't know about, or think are weird or think are wrong, and they aren't because you know, in order to be a successful elk, a successfully and you gotta get good at it. You back it up to a lot of people. And I think in this podcast, I tell people, I'm I've hunted a lot, but I would never very selectively level tips because I just think it's it's something that you really have to have your mind wrapped around. I really have to have done. There's I've had some successes where I tell you stories, but there's very few pursuits where I feel like an expert. Turkeys maybe, and there's some different thing, but but for you, your whole, your whole business of being an elk god is being able to complete that process. That's it. Oh yeah, and you gotta do it regularly every week, whether it's a good week or a bad week. Like the animals don't. One of the things that I will talk about is people call I read so many articles of people saying elk er call shy. We'll talk about that. Stop saying that. Another episode of Cutting the Distance. All right, Well, Remy's podcast just launched this Thursday, so we're a couple of five, six days in. It's already getting some some good reviews, and I feel like we will end this little segment with a little bit of good review reading by Phill the Engineer. You're ready, Phil, Yeah, a little soundtrack action. This is Hall of Notes. Ready, Yeah, it sounds good. All right? Read the this review. Remy warrants cutting the this sense great start. Premy has a great concept to start his podcast, and the way he has the storytelling is on point, and how he pivots those stories to educational takeaways for others to benefit from is really cool and I can't wait to hear more. I hope he interviews other hunters in in the community and allows them to share their stories in detail and things they've learned in those instances. I wouldn't mind the episodes being longer than thirty minutes. Thanks awesome. Yeah, thanks guy or Gal. I love him. That sacks kicks in him really makes that review, picks that review up. Yeah, oh here it comes all right? Thanks cool. Yeah, I really appreciate whoever dropped that little nugget in there, and we do appreciate that, and we appreciate all all reviews we're making having a little fun with it all here, but but honestly, we can't do this out feedback. Remy can't do his show without feedback. I can't do mine without feedback. Good, bad, and different. It all is important. Um, As Remy says in his podcast, if it's bad, maybe just email it. Yeah. If it's good, address your concerns. Yeah, in a better way, in a better way. But yes, we we very much appreciate all that. And all the feedback comes into the emails. Remy's got an email Remy at the Meat Eater dot com that yeah you do. Yeah, you can email Remy at the media dot com. It comes right to his inbox and mind too. So you never know who's going to reply to you. What could be one of If it's like snarky reply, it's definitely not me, because I'm pretty chill. Yeah. If it seems a little if it seems a little overwritten, it's probably me. So do that. Go find cutting the distance, give it a five star ratings, subscribe. It will come right into your podcast platform every week. Then they'll have Remy Warren right there with you. Please, guys, appreciate it. All Right, we're gonna get to we're gonna travel back in time. About two or three weeks we had Keith Balford from Buda Crockett in this room, just talk all things trophies, all things conservation, and then a real deep dial on fair Chase. I enjoyed it. I hope you will too. Give it a listen, Keith, how's it going, man, it's good, going, good, Ben, Welcome to the Meat Eater Studio. Meat Eater Studios, World Headquarters, World Headquarters. What do you think? I like it. I like it. I like everybody's dress cash very very Montana. It's a flip flop friendly office, totally. Yeah. Yeah, some people take it too far, I feel, um, but you just you gotta walk that back every once in a while. It looks like a lot of surfers here. Not a lot of surfing in Bozeman, No, not that I've seen. Or a dog friendly office, a flip flop friendly office in a hunting friendly office. And we've got surfers in Missoula right in front of our offices. That's true. Well, um, well, always started by telling people who you are. That's always good. I always like to ask people to describe the surroundings. But we describe these surroundings many times already on the show. So let's get that part. But um, yeah, tell people who you are and where you work. Who are I? Well, I am the director marketing for the Boone and Crockett Club, and our world headquarters is three hours up the freeway from here in Missouri in Montana, Yes, sir, and I've been there, dare I say eighteen years? Yeah, I've seen a lot of change in that organization over that time. A lot of change in the organization. UM, A lot of changes in my hunting industry. I've been in the industry for I got thirty years or more, so I've seen a lot of changes there too, UM, mostly for the good. Yeah, knock on wood. This is wood, isn't it? Yeah? It is? Would or it's like some facimil of would UM tell people I think there are I would posit that there are misconceptions about the Boon and Crocket Club out there. Do you agree with that? Of people just think it's like the Big Bucks Big Bulls Club. It's that primarily, UM or you know, a bit bunch of rich white guys sitting around. UM. But that's understandable. I mean, the records book and the records program is the public face of the club. It's the longest standing thing that people are aware of. UM. But actually, you know, if you we're an accountenance about ten percent of our budget. Our main thrust since day one has been conservation, advancing conservation, establishing it, establishing the institutions of conservation. The funding is this all the way goes back to Teddy Roosevelt, who founded the organization with George burg Gunnel. And yeah, yeah, that's the most kind of the next thing, I want to talk about the history of the club because I think we know who Boone Crockett were. We're all aware of those names. Um, maybe not the ennesis of the club so much though, So take people through that period with with Colonel Grann Allen here. If you're a sportsman, a hunter of conservation, it's a great story and and I won't be able to come it all entirely here, but I can give you that the nickel to her. Roosevelt, you know, before he became president, he was very keenly interested in nature and naturalist. He collected birds, He did you know, at home taxidermy. Um. He aspired to live the hardy life of the outdoors. Um was kind of a sickly child. The doctor said, you need to get outdoors, split wood, right, horses, shoot, you know all that kind of stuff, and his his exploits led him out west, where he bought a ranch in the Dakota Territory, tried his hand at cattle ranching. Was there for a couple of years anyway, And uh, that really where he bore witness to what was happening with our wildlife in particular. Um, there's accounts of him saying, you know, he wanted kind of buffalo before they're all gone. And you know he said, you know, we were never in sight of alive buffalo or out of sight of the bleached bones of by. So he came back to New York in December of eight seven. Prior to that, he had struck up a friendship with George Berger. Now, those two hatched the idea of forming a coalition of their buddies, who are all sportsmen, to address the decline of wildlife, especially big game, on a national scale. UM. At that time there was some small sportsman's clubs that had merged trying to right the ship, if you will, because wildlife was vanishing an alarming rate. So Roosevelt invited twelve of his best buds to a dinner party and through this idea at them and and these guys were kind of the well to do elites of New York City at the time, industrialist politicians, bankers, and they were all in. And so they decided to name the club after their hunter heroes of the time, Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett, and they just kind of hit the ground running. Um, it's an interesting guy economy to the think that these urban elites. And we've talked about this in the podcast before, so it's it's interesting that there's a group of urban elites getting together and talking about conservation and wildlife issues or today we don't see, we don't think in modern times that there's there's this concern for the national world coming out of our urban centers. Like no, that's that's a great, great observation. But these these were the New York power brokers, and um, they were all sportsmen, they were adventurers, they were explorers. Um, you know, they were the ones that were witness to the plight of wildlife, saw what irresponsible land use practices we're going on. They didn't necessarily have an idea and how to fix it, but they brought experts in. That's how the club grew in size. They kept recruiting people that that had problem solving skills, and believe it or not, the very first thing the club did was was save, Protect, and expand Yellowstone Park. So here was the first, the nation's first national park. It wasn't only a park by name. Nobody knew what it meant. Um. You know, it was being plundered, um poaching, timber mining, the guys ares, the artifacts are being defaced, and you know, here's a group of sportsmen saying, well, here's the place we can't hunt, but we're gonna save it. And so that was the That was their first dose of the process that they would follow, which was legislation. So they drafted and passed the Yellowstone Protection Act, which at the time was the first time Congress had weighed in on any matter of wildlife conservation or natural resource conservation. So that was another first. Well there was there's other the funny part and as I was reading about years of history of your organizations, like there there there are some monumental pieces of legislation that were championed by has been a Crocker Club, Lacey Act. Um, you're talking to PIMN. Robertson Act, Federal Duck Stand Migratory Bird Treaty Act that the Timberland Reserve bill um all kinds of fancy names, but the end result was the establishment of our national forest, federal public lands, national wildlife refugees, the expert agencies to man these things. So US Fish and Wildlife Service, Bureau land manage meant us for a service. These were all, you know, we say Boone and Crockett initiatives. I like to say sportsman's initiatives. These guys were all avid hunters and they saw, you know, value in specifically federal public lands. I know that's a hot topic right now. It's access to these lands, and their main goal, what they came together for was recovering wildlife. And and so here comes these hunters, and Roosevelt in particular, getting up and saying, well, the best way to save what's left of the wildlife that we have is to continue to hunt them. Completely counterintuitive. I mean the sales pitch of this entry. And they nominated Sportsman to be the stewards and the vanguards of this because Sportsman benefited directly from the opportunity to hunt, the traditions to hunt, the connectivity to the land and the wildlife. And back then I mean, I've done some reading and and try to dig up like a nine. There's a National Wildlife the first, I think the first ever National Wildlife Conference, Frankin D. Roosevelt brought a thousand groups together. You have and you look there and it's like garden clubs and things that you don't really think of when you think of when the modern hunter things of conservation. There are a lot of groups in there that were stakeholders that we don't think of as stakeholders within our hunt, like our North American model now. So it's funny to think of how we've shifted, how we still think of ourselves as stewards of conservation, but we've kind of shifted the definition of who's in our bubble, who's who's out without Well, that's an important distinction to make, Ben. I mean, we live in the you know, the hunter conservationist community. But truth be told, there's conservation going on lots of places, a lot of people involved in it that have nothing to do with hunting. Um just concerned people, concerned groups, rotaries, local groups, local clubs, um gardening like you said, gardening clubs, bird watching clubs, you know, wetland restoration groups. You know, all those types of things, like the local rod and Gun club back then was a huge thing, very influential, and it's almost it's not completely gone now, but it certainly doesn't hold any influence on a national conservation levels. And and those local groups were important that those were actually what started I remember I said this was Roosevelt founded this to be the first group to take on these matters on a national scale. These matters were being dealt with at a local level um and and spawned out of the same wildlife crisis that got the club going. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so it's important to though, in the modern sense, when we talk about what what the Buda Crockett Club is. I I don't think everyone thinks this, but I think there's you know, the casual observer. Well, like you said, think of big Bucks and big bulls and tailers and measuring and what's certified and what isn't and all those types of things. But when you aga into the history of conservation this country, Boone Crockett is right there. I mean, it's right there, it is, and there's you know, weeks sometimes joke to ourselves here that the club's kind of written out of history. Because you'll you'll read accounts of Grinnell and all the Litopold and pin Show and some of these people and the club will never be mentioned, and truth be told, part of that was by design. Um, you know, Roosevelt was the walks softly, carry a big stick. And and a lot of these early club members we're you know, eccentric, super influential people, and and so they chose to kind of work quietly behind the scenes to get things done, especially when it came to legislation. So who was writing these bills was not public knowledge, but it was Sportsman and it was members of the club. And you mentioned the Lacy Act. John Lacy was a member. He passed, you know, to significant bills that dropped the hammer on commercial market hunting. Um Pittman Robertson was another one, establishing some of the national parks that we have. Glacier we talked about Yellowstone Glaciers, another one. Denali is another one. These these were hunters that said, you know, these these places need preserved. Yeah. And back then because this was such, you know, these things were just growing, their foundations were becoming real. There's things like the Audubon Society and the New York Zoology Society, like these things that we're connected to the boding track of club where now we don't like. Again, the point to make is we don't see that now. Back then there was the ground swell was a bit had a bit more breath direct connection. New York Zoological Society was run by William T. Hornerday who was a club member. Audubon Society was started by George burrg Grennell, who helped find the club with Roosevelt. So there there was a network of these groups that were spun out of you know, club members went off and did their thing, or this organization got going and there was a lot of synergy and so there was cross membership. Campfire Club is another one that was closely associated with the club. Do you see that today that I didn't I didn't predict to talk about this when I was thinking about what we might talk about, But you see today we have. We talked about this in recent podcasts where it's just the facts that we have a lot of great conservation organizations in our world, whether it be a single species organization like Rocky Mountain ELK or or something more general like Buona Crockett or TRCP or what what have you. There, everybody's once members, everybody's needs the attention. Everybody wants to have an impact. That creates a competition, not intentionally, but it creates like some jockey areas, there's a business reality to what I can tell you. And you asked if if there's cooperation or some connectivity. So back in two thousand UM, this is one of the things that the club was noticing is we had no unity. We're all we're all kind of pulling in the same direction, but in some cases we're being counterproductive with each other. And so the club hosted a summit in Missoula and brought in all of these conservations, everybody that would come, and the result of that was the formation of American Wildlife Conservation Partners, which is just a coalition of all these groups trying to unify a voice and and primarily in the legislative and political arena where we can come forward and say, well, these groups represent this many million sportsmen, voters, taxpayers, and we believe this. And so there's a lot of unity there and that's you know us the critter groups, uh N, SSP and r a UM all the way down like the Woodcock Association, and it was a rough Grouse Society, and you know, all all of those right now, it's I think it's like forty five different groups that are part of this and and they share information, we share ideas, as we share science. We do sign on letters. Every time there's a turnover in the presidential administration, we produce a document called Wildlife for the twenty one Century that outlines issues important to our community and proposed solutions, and that that's been helpful in transitioning from one administration to another. So would you compare that, you know, as I think about you know, the thirties and the turn of the century and the grounds while we talked about do you feel like there's that same kind of through the A w c P and in other groups, is that the same kind of feeling that that we have that power and unity? Wasn't a room back then, so I could I can't speak with that. Yeah, maybe we maybe like grandizing that. Maybe I don't know, but it just seemed like there was when when when that first conference was held, when you read the accounts of it, you know, it certainly seems like the ground swell was strong, and I just in the modern sense I wonder where we are. Well, that's a that's a great question, Ben. I think there was a time when when it was much more connected, and then I think there was a sleepy period. Um. I think after World War Two, Um, the fruits of all of this labor in conservation had paid its dividends. Wildlife was recovering, was recovered, um, and there just wasn't as much you know activity, I guess. As a great way to put it, a lot of the legislation was done, the funding mechanisms were done, the expert agencies were done, the science was being done. Um. You know, there was trained professionals, there was was careers and college degrees in all of the wildlife sciences. All that stuff that the club and others put into motion was was there. It's like been invented. Um. I would say probably in the last twenty five years that there's been a reawakening. You've seen of new groups come on board, like tr CP, back country hunters, and anglers tend to name a few. Um. You know, a w CP came along in two thousand. Um. Yeah, I don't think many people know about it, a w c P because it's such an inner industry, inner thing. UM. But it is important. I mean it's something where like you said, I mean it has a real impact on a lotlife hunting and conservation policies and directions. It does. And you talk about memberships, well, there's there's a lot of you know, I know, people that belong to Boone and Crockett and they belong to t RCP, and they belong to ELK, and they belong to Wild Sheep. It's important that those members that are supporting those organizations know that there is a mother ship that all of these groups are you know, kind of convening with and sharing ideas and and you know, the whole strength in numbers type of a thing. So yeah, I would I would say our community is more organized than probably ever before and are connected. Um. All of groups Boone and Crockett included, is still working on their pet things. They're specialized deals obviously Elks, ELK and ELK, Habitat and Grouse and all that. UM. But there's a lot of crossover, and there's a lot of crossover within the organizations as far as leadership. UM. You know, almost all of the CEOs are executive directors of a w CP, are professional members of Boone and Crockett. We've got Boone and Crockett members on boards of other organizations. So well. The reason, the kind of the reason we're here, Keith, is because it was this last January and we've had we've done this before this last January, but you and Shane Mahoney and I were having some booze in the Circle Bar there and the Wild Chief Show and so those that would probably more entertaining podcast. Those those that's good fly on the walls, that's good fall stuff. But we always get into, you know, how Shane is. Shane is very very well spoken, very intelligent, but also um, he can be a little bit bombastic about like where we are and how desperate situation is. And so it's fun and he Shane did, I have a good enough relationship and as you do too, and he lets me kind of poke him and make fun of him a little bit and chide him for some of his dramatic statements. But when we're talking about a lot of times you talk about like the public facing image of hunting and how how important that is. We talk about that at NAZI on this show, and and so I'm reluctant to kind of approach it the same way. But there's the there's something about in the hunting community wanting to be fair to the animal, right, the concept of wanting to be fair to the animal. And we'll we'll go through kind of the modern constructs of that. But give us a from your perspective, how that started. Like, I know, I know, that's it's a long held idea. It's an idea that we've twisted and turned throughout throughout time. But from your perspective, from even from a bon cracker, respective, where did where did this idea spring from? This idea spring from? And again it goes back to Roosevelt Grinnell kind of the Okay, what are we gonna do? And Um, the concept of a hunting ethic and ethos if you will, or a standard actually originated in Europe. Um, but it originated on the on the estates and and their wildlife was managed by the gamekeeper, and that there was a code of ethical conduct that went on if you were going to pursue the game in that area. The public for the most part in Europe didn't hunt, they didn't have access to wildlife. Unfortunately, that ethical standard did not transfer over on the mayflower um, you know, are are you know, the the empire builders and the pioneers and the settlers that came here landed in this this you know, land of opportunity, this corner copy of wildlife and abundance. There was the impression that wildlife was inexhaustible manifest destiny did not do well for it did not do well for for ethics. So it was it was a free for all. And uh so we don't have to go into that. But when Roosevelt came fourth and and started to pitch this idea of conservation, which really even at the time wasn't a word in the English language UM and was nominating sportsman to be the deliverers of this new system, this new relationship between man and natural resources. And the club went through all of these things that we just talked about, the legislation and the expert agencies there there there was a piece that was missing, and that was this concept of an ethical approach. And they called it fair chase. And it's it's interesting that, um it had many uses. UM. The first use was conservation is a discipline of self restraint. And in its essence, you know, we're gonna use, but use wisely save so we have some for tomorrow. The sustainable use of the exactly well fair chase is is is a standard or a discipline that is the same thing. It's self restraint. And so if your if your goal is recovering wildlife, yet you still want to hunt and we still want to have public access to wildlife hunting and fishing. Um, this ethical code of conduct was was really a foundational to conservation. They're intertwined. So that was that was one piece of the puzzle. Is there is there a day and time where like the fair chase first became you know, was first written down or articulators. That's a great question, um. The notes that we have the very first meeting of the Moon and Crockett Club, they discussed in just seven It wasn't called fair chase then that came about a few years later. I didn't know that. I didn't know it was that old. I mean, you're talking a year old, hunder thirty year old idea, um, because that's comparatively the North American model of conservation. Where people think of this idea. You know, we're discussing kind of the tenants of it a bit, but it wasn't formulated until the eighties. Folks who listen this podcast will know of our our two part conversation with Shae Mahoney about it, and we got into that history. Um. But it's interesting how these things kind of all over time because I didn't, you say it, fair Chase, I didn't. It's it's a little bit shocking to me that it was being discussed all the way back because it was such a dichotomy. People out west didn't get a ship there out there shooting buffalo at nausea. That it was, but that was part of it. If if, if you saw why wildlife was disappearing in alarming rate, and while we were losing species to extinction, it was over harvest um. And it wasn't all commercial, you know, commercial market hunting was certainly in play, but unregulated sport hunting, substance hunting, you know, no game laws, no real understanding of reproduction cycles and habitat quality and and and all of that that we didn't have the wildlife sciences back then. So again, if if, if, restraint was going to need to be in order, and and Roosevelt knew that there needed to be order, and and order meant game laws. You know, we were gonna have to come along with a set of rules that said, you know, hunting can't be seven three six, there's gonna be hunting seasons, there's gonna be reasonable bag limits set for recovery um. And you think about the natural progression. I wish it would have happened sooner, but as our country was, you know, people laying here in the late fourteen hundreds, and it takes hundreds of years, decades for us to get to a point where we have a stable society post civil war, we can start to like we and and now we have refrigeration and railroads and we're starting to to It feels like the nation is becoming smaller in a lot of ways, and it can manage itself in that way. That's just that the natural progression of of our society. Absolutely, and this country is marked with good things coming out of crisis. You know, you just hey, just become self evident. We just can't continue this anymore. So this ethic was also important to get sportsmen of that day to buy in to self restraint and conservation um. Because Roosevelt knew these game laws would becoming and it wasn't an easy sell. I mean, these guys were used to, you know, shooting whenever they want whenever they want it. And then you know, along with that, you know, we can talk about trophy and all that that's connected to this as well. But once we had game was established, something in our game was initially we're built off of fair chase principles. You know, these hunting methods are not sustainable. This style of harvest is not sustainable. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit too, because I think I've got some things that I normally you know, I've given some ethics panels, we talked about fair chase and some things that I try to positive about the future of it. But in the past of it, we have some fair chase principles that are not connected to two game laws. Some that are suggested like models of behavior. They extend beyond the law. That's the ethical, that's the actually the personal. So there's yeah, there's personal ethics, situational ethics that go beyond the law. But I think to back up from that, that's one that's the more the less tangible conversation, what should you do in this situation or how should you build your personal construct of of how you act? All phone when you're alone or with a small group of people in the middle of nowhere. So we have we have that part. We'll get to that part. But one thing that I may have missed and some of my earlier conversations and some of my assertions about the future of fair chase is how connected are the the origin of our game laws are to this, to the core code here. Okay, that's a that's a good question. How do you like, how do you how do you see those two things in relation? Because I, like I said, I'm not taken aback that it goes back that far. So as game laws kind of matriculated and become the model of which we how we fund and how we regulate hunting, how much do those fair chase ideas impacted it? And there's no way to really know, but you can certainly can positive and they're they're connected more than you think if you start thinking about it. So if if you put wildlife recovery is the goal, and you know ethical state enters, an ethical treatment of fair shake, an honest effort, that that's fair chase. So that sits over on this side. Um, but the very first game laws we're based on fair chase from the standpoint of using restraint. So they were they were aimed at things like punt guns that were just you know, shooting entire flocks of ducks with one shot. And you know what they used to call crusting, which was chasing game mired in deep snow, um jack lighting, you know, running running around the woods at night with lanterns to confuse the game and drive them. The shooters driving game into two lakes and ponds and shooting them from canoes. These are often, these are often I think it's an important distinction. These are often market hunter. I mean, there are some native idea, like there's a lot of native subsistance tribes that all, we're not far here from Buffalo Jo. Yeah, that's right, exactly where I was going, Like this is this is so these are deeper seated practice. Those those methods that were accustomed and customary at the time and appropriate at the time, that were meant for massive harvest with least effort. Those were the things that our first game was went after because that was the biggest swath of what was unsustainable um and and really past that then you have you know, the hunting season and then the reasonable bag limits. It's it's going to be you know, six grouse a day or so many ducks a day, or you know, one deer season or two deer season. And I imagine it was you know, and I've I've read about this and and and looked into this. It's like, how can we first stem the tide, stopped the systemic problem? How do we make sure that we regulate out the systemic problem of killing game at nausea? I'm killing you know, raving And and it was a culture shift. I mean, you grew up in that day. I mean we probably were named after Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett. They were some of the biggest harvesters out there. Um, but even they if you read some of the biographies, especially on Boone later in life, he realized that what he was doing was unsustainable and him opening up territories to to settlement. He got to see, you know, this was game abundant land when I got here, and within ten short years anything within a twenty mile radius of the settlement was yeah, you know, scorched earth. So they actually started to spawn some conservation values and realized that that you know, human capabilities can outpace the resource real quickly yeah, and I think I think this is a good time just to bring in like the definition of fair chases. Boone and Crockett sees it. I'm sure you've got that memorized it. Yeah, it's the ethical law I got in front of me. It's ethical sports and like in lawful pursuit and taking of any free ranging, wild, big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter, that does not give the hunter an improper, unfair advantage over the game animals. So that's the Buoner cracket official fair chase statement. And so there's a lot to break down that, but I think it's it's nice to start at where it began, kind of the crisis in which this this idea, this construct was born from. Right, It was born to kind of stop or stem some really bad activity and really start wild life and wild places. And then over time, you know, post we got into in post World War one, a time where the modern sport hunter began to rise from. That's that's another important distinction ben um fair chase. Besides, let me just jump back a second here. So once we established game laws, what also happened is we were able to define poaching. Okay, this is this is hunting over here, this is something else, and this is poaching. Before that they were yeah, it was yeah so and and for fair chase is the thing that that society and trusted sportsmen to recover wildlife with. I mean it was it was our permission to speak and and it's still to this day we start talking about modern relevance. It's a social license, um hunters, sportsmen's sportswomen holding themselves accountable to a higher standard that extends beyond the law. That should be pretty bulletproof. And and it is if if we're applying it and talking about it like we are today. So that that was important, um. And then there's this idea of and I just spent some time in Berkeley, California talking to veg exam or rights folks, and there's this idea of thoughtlessness in the modern sense about hunters. There's this idea of um lust being involved, and this idea that common sense isn't at the four you know. And so we as hunters, this fair chase principle, as imperfect as it may be, at least when you explain it to when you would give that fair chase statement from the crack it to someone who has no who has this idea of hunters as barbaric and and this is out there and it's very you know it as well as I. Unfortunately it is and and like it or not, some of that's our own doing. I mean, what what paint? What picture are we painting for folks? Yeah? Big fat part of that is if this is self inflicted wounds. Yeah, if I had a pie charted out, I never pie charted this out, would be ridiculous. But you know, I would say urbanization, um, Bambi or maybe Walt Disney, who however you want to blame in that bribe bamby because it's fictional. Um and and hunters ourselves would be the three main culprits of of you know, the decline in hunting. Maybe not the decline and hunter numbers as much, but the decline in the understanding unders you know, UM and I don't know where I drank those. I think I would put urbanization and and hunters right beside each other and as the culprits for this misunderstanding. Well, there's no I mean, you guys are in the business. How many people know where their food comes from? Yeah, I mean that's that's that's a lot that's lost on our society comes from the grocery store, and that's like a cultural like so that so we're fighting. I think we're we're swimming upstream on the culturals, but we're certainly not helping ourselves, like we're throwing paddles out of the boat as we're trying to, you know, paddle up stream. Um, we're certainly fighting against the tide of of time. We're not we're not doing ourselves any favors well. And I would assume I wasn't there your your Berkeley thing, but I would imagine that you know, you're pretty well versed in this. By the time they were done, they probably went you know, I get that. I didn't think of it that way, and you start applying Faret Chase. I'm a firm believer that that society at large, even animal rights and anti hunting people, there's something to be learned from fair Chase, for sure. For sure, you know this is this is not a free for all, This is not thrilled killing. This is actually part of a bigger picture. And I hope we made that connection. How it was was foundational to conservation, which I like that. I'm glad we got to that. Um I needed to have that right now. And but I think, you know, to the point of like the Berkeley folks, one of the best kind of back and force I had during that time was with Robert C. Jones and we were just simply talking about, you know, what's the code, and he brought up trophy hunting. Are you willing to say that's you know, trophy hunting, which here's an example traref anything. A guy that cuts the head off a deer and leaves the body, takes the head home. I'm like, listen, that's not that's not that's an asshole and as often illegal that in almost in most cases, that's an illegal act, right. But if it if it happens to be legal wherever that person is, that person is an asshole. If if we're talking about campers and we begin to talk about them by saying, you know, campers, all they do is litter, like they just take garbage bags and dump them into wild places, like, that's not a camper, that's a one an asshole camera, you know. So my point to him is like, it's it's very disingenuous to to do that. And I think I know. The other thing I learned is to just ingenuous to do that to other groups. I say, like factory farming as a monitor is not the way to speak about the big act connection to great anteidote to that here, here's another one, um that's it's factual as well. And we talked about records and trophies. Trophies. Believe it or not, We're an instrumental part of Roosevelt's plan, in the club's plan to enlist sportsmen into the conservation movement. And the best way I can explain that is the club through its scoring system and its records books and elevating the notion of trophy got people more interested in selective harvest. We talked about fair chase and game laws. When hunting was was allowed again, what do we hunt males, rooster, pheasants, drake Mallard's buck, dear bow elk again, recovery. This was all built on sustainable. If you're going to remove an animal from the population, the best one that's not going to be missed is a mature animal that's already genetically contributed to her health. So this idea of a trophy fit the self restraint deal. It fit the sportsman deal. It's it fit the the the ego part of well, you know, I'm I'm skilled woodsman, I can I can outsmart the wisest, and that meant the biggest and the best and the oldest and the most mature quote a trophy. Yeah, this is this is one of those ideas where it looks so different inside hunting than it does outside hunting. And we have not done a great job. We've not done a great job that with that idea. And you know, like you said, there are some you know, a holes out there that have let trophy define hunting not only for them but for all of us. Yeah, it's it's cultural. Yeah, that means real back in, it's cultural in hunting. I had a very prominent out our TV personality tell me some needs a couple of years ago in camp that nobody would watch it unless something big died. And that was and this is a person, a leading person in the industry who has kind of defined help to find some of our culture. And he's like, well, if if you know, if we don't have a big thing die at the end of the show, then nobody will watch. Like well, I mean, if that's the case, what's that say about our culture? Well, that was that was the case before television, when you know, it was hunting DVDs. How many kills can you get on one DVD? Yeah, that's that's that's what's sold. Not just call out stamp pots. But I used to love watching old stampots. You big deer. Yeah, And so that transferred that business model, if you will, how many kills can we get on one DVD? That transferred over to television like right now, and still still it's it's it's softened up some um, but it's still that's what a lot of guys were tuning in for. So yeah, I think that's generational. Maybe maybe it's it's it's it's in some way generation it's turning. I even I'm seeing enough and I'm hearing enough where people are going. I just can't watch that stuff anymore. And I rarely run into anybody that's my age or anywhere near my age that that wants to talk about it like that. And working for meat eat or not, the not to toot our own horn or held up Steve or Nell anymore. And he's already been held up. But most people like I love meeting I don't watch any other hunting shows. I love Meet or that's a refrain, I hear, you know. I love Shock. He's uncharted, you know, and and the messages and the thing, the way he goes about it, and and his his ambassadorship for hunting, and yeah, because he's tugging at the different there's just this different adventure ethos that we all kind of have. We know we have it or not. Um. Yeah. So I think with any trend, much like the trophy trend in our culture, there's pushed back to it. And so the modern, the more modern pushback. And I can say I've seen it. I mean, we did it. I was at Pigeon's Hunting in two thousand eleven and we did a meet need to Recover. I got everybody all hackled up, remember that. But that that was the idea that that back then, this was happening. And here we are eight eight some years later and it's still you know, moving forward. And we when Boonda Crockett was doing we were doing our television show. I mean there was there was network guidelines. Don't show any meat being cut up or blood or anything being packed out. I'm going kids the point. Yeah, what's the point of this. So you know that's obviously loosened up, and you know the the utilization is more prevalent. Now We've always known as the case, but you couldn't show it on TV. And so when you guys did I work When I was at yet we worked a little bit on the Hunt Fair Chase, which is a initiative that you guys launched time a couple of years ago now two years, two years and then launching that, we'll get to what kind of what that is. But in launching that, I think what was clear is that at least clear for me and even talking publicly about it's like what And there's a generational shift at least and my generation I think is probably the first generation in hunting to have this where I can, I can legitimately say I'm a better public communicator than my dad because my dad was never a public communicator. And now anybody with a phone is a public communicator. And we're all movie producers or all you know, I mean, we're in the we're in the communications age. So everybody's got you know, access to this their own social media stuff. Yeah, it's it's a c change and how people act is let's think we're all in this world where we're communicating with how many other people we can get a hold of about usually the best parts of our life. And so I just think my genera M thirty three. I think my generation is the first hunting generation. However you'll put me in, I think I'm at the very tail end of the millennial generation. So I'll take whatever thing I get for that. But I think that this generation, or this space and time is the kind of the first generation to feel the pressure to understand the values that grew up with it and grew up with it, and it's trained in it and whether you wanted, whether you say trained or not, like you you have to be if you want to, you know, want to be popular. When my dad's generation, it was out there, Life in Field and Stream Magazine. That was it. When I was growing up, it was those three magazines and maybe every third Sunday American Sportsman. Yeah, and that was it. Yeah. I mean I grew up on when I first got in the industry, ESPN had hunting shows and I remember writing a blog on for American Hunter dot org at the n r A about ESPN kicking out hunting and I remember as a kid, that's what we watched on Sunday. That's what we watched. I've got I've got Sports Illustrated magazines and our archives that had like our Big Game Awards in it. They talked about that was Sports Illustrated. We by podcast with Colonel Tom Kelly recently, and he was talking about writing for Sports Illustrated in the fifties and and it just you know how quickly that all changed for us and how insular we became as a community. I think based on those I've talked with Randy Newburg about this a couple of different times, where what you read back then romanticized hunting. It was about discovery, it was about exploration, was about camaraderie. It wasn't about tactics and techniques and stuff like that. And so that you know, those are the manly sports. You know, there was men's magazines back then that that ran hunting and fishing. But don't you think that that I looking at the history and following the timeline, I feel like that came out of the both World Wars. People came back from these World Wars looking for not not looking for tactics, to learn how to kill an elk. They came back looking for solitude and connect connectivities, you believe in something to mark your calendar, to look forward to. And so during those decades, our culture became that because that's what would get people into hunting. And that's kind of what that conversation was that that's where the Pennsylvania hunting deer hunt in camp emerged from that. You know, we sound like a bunch of old guys, you're talking about history, but you know, after World War Two that was the greatest influx of sportsman going into the field, the returning g I s. And and about that time is when our industry kind of kicked off. You know, more and more manufacturers getting in shot show emerged not that long afterward. Um, you know, big trade shows, and you know now if there's one tree stand, there's twenty, and if there's one duck call, there's fifty. You know, and that that didn't happen. You know, there was some companies involved, but not many. Now it's you know, it's a big business. It's a big industry or supporting you know a lot of passionate sportsman. That's funny, it's funny how you say that. I think now looking back at the old Peterson's hunting in the seventies or even going back into field stream and out their life. And it wasn't like I said, it wasn't call companies. It was like skull, it was you know, I was making these up and his you know, it was flannel hats and chainsaws. But it started as a very non endemic idea in the market. You know, brill cream and shaving and Lucky Strike cigarettes and you know all that kind of stuff. Manly Man. Yeah, Well, and it's it's turned on its head now to where it's it's very most of our communications are very instular, very you know, get better at this thing, which is it's just it's very interesting how we've kind of came through that time. Um. Then for me, that'd, like you said, talk about history. For me to understand where we are today, you have to kind of understand where we've been, and that I don't know, I don't think negatively about the late eighties, early nineties and into the early two thousand's, but I think that was the real the real time where that that commoditization trophy hunting idea became. It's stuck a lot of tipping points happen in that time frame. And the good news is I think there's a sea change. We're talking about this now. I mean, can can you imagine a podcast on fair chase ten fifteen years ago? I mean, my dad and my I said this in in another post, but I don't my dad never, I don't think ever said this to me explicitly, but I think it part of his generation was let's just not talk about it outside of what we do. If we just don't talk about hunting outside of just hunters, then antis won't have anything to attack us for. That was something that that was a refrain I heard a lot coming into the industry. You know, um, well you start you talk about dads. My dad was. He was a bird hunter. He loved the hunt pheasants and rabbits. That's what we grew up in farm in Ohio. I don't think he ever knew or heard of the term fair chase, but to him, there was things. This is how we did things. So he showed me this is how we treat the land. This is how we asked the landowner. This is how we You shoot a peasant, you you look for it, you exhaust everything looking for it. We eat everything we take, we don't waste anything. So he was he was laying down the rules of the road how hunters hunt. He didn't call a para chase. But it's a code of conduct, it's a code of contact. And I think we talked about Liverpold all the time, although um he that's I mean, his ethic was that way. And I think the way I started when we start talking about ethics in public and I give talks to whoever wants to talk about it private republic. Even there's the idea that hunting is very there's no one else watching, like it's very very internal in that way. And um, there's like there's a quote from Always bring this quote up. It's probably Peter heard this a lot. But a peculiar value virtue and wild like ethics, is that the hunter has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience rather than by a mob of onlookers. And it's difficult to exaggerate the importance of this fact. And that's old out and so that's true until social media. Yeah, I was just gonna say that, And that's the way it's been hunting is you know, primarily done alone. Yeah, you might be in camp with family and friends, but it's it's it's you out there. You're making you make the call. There's no referees. You you're You're the one that's got to live with your decisions. Um. But yeah, boom, here comes social media because I think that's you know, hunting used to be I don't want to say contained in a negative way, but it used to be contained to our conventions, our magazines. Um, you know I used to have a photo album and you know, this is what I got this year, and you take it to a show and you show people, and now you know, our photo albums are videos. All our stuff is you know, in the airwaves. It's being pumped out. Yeah, that's and that's funny. How you can see, like, like I said, the late eighties, early nineties kind of the how their culture changed, and then you can then see, like when social media really became impactful, how our culture has changed, how our films have changed, how our magazines have changed, how our communications have changed. You can erase the medium, podcast, magazines whatever, they are certainly still magazines that kind of still are still doing it the same way they did it fifteen years ago and very successfully. That's you know, that's great, but there's also a lot of new things that are born of you know, we just had Tyler Sharp from Modern Huntsmen on this podcast. Is probably one of the things you could put in that bucket. But there's there's just a a different way to think about it now that that we have this social media way to communicate. As much as we want to blame social media for some of the jackpot we found ourselves in, I'm I'm coming a little more philosophical about it and said, social media is really what got a lot of us paying attention. And now there's twelve million people that can influence someone else about hunting. And I I had a lot of people that are realized. Some people aren't, but a lot of people are realizing that's pretty important. That's an important thing. So I think, you know, you mentioned the hunt Right campaign that was purely driven to point out the fact that, you know, our image is tarnished and we've got to be better ambassadors for our sport and and fair Chase is a great rallying point for that, and and people sucked that up. There there was you know, not everybody there's you know, hunt, how you want to hunt, and all that kind of stuff movement. But for the for the most part, the timing was right for that, and it was extremely well received. We were we were pleased with the response that we got, and it spawned, you know, you talk about Tyler and modern huntsman. He approached me and Simon Roosevelt to contribute to his latest issue and talk about ethics and fair chase, and so we submitted some articles. I can count on one hand, ten years ago anybody even say, hey, come one, come on and talk, Come on and talk about this, or give us some history or some perspective, or you know, just just have a dialogue about this, you know. And it wasn't it was taboo or anything. It just wasn't on anybody's right there. It wasn't center point in the culture, you know. And I think I feel I often, you know, people listen to this year for hours a week. I often I don't want to beat people over the head with these heavy ideas. I don't want to make everything some larger than it has to be decision. I don't Hunting should be fun, it should be enjoyable. That's if it wasn't that we wouldn't do it. If it was some robotic, you know, very fraught decision making process that wasn't fun less, people certainly would do it and we would be passionate about it. But at the same time, connecting like these ideas of you do need to be thoughtful, you do need to understand there's a code of conduct, and this is this is not just a modern thing. It's going on for thirty years and we're still solving those same problems, sustainability being being the main thing there. Well, I mean there's there's a societal code and you know everything. I was talking about this the other day. I mean you, I mean, it's simple things that you're growing up with. You know, respect women, hold the door open, form, put the toilet seat down if you if you borrow something, return it in good condition as if it was your own. Respect, the flag under our service men and women. Fair Chase is right in there with those same type of principles. Yeah, I think, well, yeah, I think one, well, I think we've made that, we made that point. I think to shift and when when I've talked on this podcast and then you know, publicly about an idea of like Okay, Now, fair Chase. We agree it's a valuable We agree it has this modicum of success within our culture for over a century. What in the future, how two things, One, how can it be adapted? And to how can it How can fair Chase adapt to defend against some of the modern mindsets of what hunting is or what hunting has become. So there's the questions that I always ask myself and when I come to fair Chase, I asked myself and I think a lot of people in society because I think society is just asking us a simple question. They're asking us, is hunting good for all of us? Because we we all most I would say, of people value animals. They value their being there, they value seeing them, they value interacting with them, they value their presence. Unlike other continents that don't have that same shared value system, we generally do. So we have that. So now, what can how can fare Chase kind of prop up that idea going forward because it's I feel like it's gonna have to adapt in a lot of ways. Well, that's a good question, ben I. I mean, we already talked about fair Chase being that adding more legitimacy to hunting, it's that social license. But I think the conversation that needs to take place even ahead of that is that idea that hunting is conservation. To steal a quote from our friends over at ELK, it is an irreplaceable mechanism for conservation. It's it's it's part of conservation is the longest continual, continuous movement in American history, and hunting has been shoulder to shoulder with that since day one. We need to be able to communicate that in itself more and then with that, Okay, by the way it is does have purpose. It is being conducted ethically. There is respect given to the game, the meat, the animals are utilized. That just kind of sells it even further. I don't I'm not necessarily convinced that the fair chase being the tip of the spear. People need to understand ecological realities. And then we're hunting's role does fit. Part of that is, you know, you we talked about trophy hunting and that negative stereotype. Yeah, we've got to get away from the snap headline judgment that hunters or blood sport thugs with you know, no moral code and and they're just thrill killing fair Chase can certainly be part of that conversation, but you know, we we've got it. I think too many people that don't understand the history of conservation, um they're confused between preservation and conservation. Yeah, you so much in that I man so, and there's so much to unpack. One of the things I think to unpack within within that conversation is as time goes on and there's less hunters, Let's say we stabilize at twelve million and we stay there. I don't I can't see a time where we're like, oh, there's twenty million. We just grew eight million. I don't know, just because of that urbanization and kind of the change in our culture. I just don't know the future. But I would be skeptical if someone argued to me that they thought they could double hunting in the next fifty years, I would say, boy, I'm not seeing that. Certainly the current data doesn't back that up. You'd have to really come at me hard with that one. So, in that world where we know it's kind of has to it's going to either stabilize or continue to decline, how do we present the North American model of wildlife conservation and the North American mile of how we pay for ship I wish I could. That'd be a good that might get people thinking about it. Um, how do we present that as like a foundational thing that has laugh pasted for all this time, hundreds of a hundred years at this point almost how do we present that is? It's it's valuable, right, it's the basis of what we do. It certainly needs to be taken, that model taken and adapted in other ways in wildlife management and out there recreation. We should be able to take this really successful model and plopping into outdoor recreation. Be like, we need you to come to the table here, we need you to be doing similar things to this. UM. I think that has to happen, But that makes our stake in the game less because we would have to bring in more people to pay for more things. So I think that's in the future. I think that has to happen, whether it's a backpack tax or something like that, it's got to happen, but it's gonna change that the dynamic. I've heard that argument. I'm kind of still not completely sold on that. That's what I've heard. You know, let's leart texting, you know, boat paddles and backpacks and mountain bikes and oh, we can't do that because all of a sudden, there's other other stakeholders in the game and they're going to delude our say, and I think one of our biggest problems in general is we've isolated ourselves. You know, there is conservation weren't going on outside of hunting and fishing, and there are groups that are open minded that that have a better understanding and quite possibly have an understanding of the history of conservation and know that hunting is not this you know, this big negative thing out there. Um So I think if we move to a point where we're not so us against them or there has to be an enemy and and and reach across the aisle, the use of political cliche and in you know, start working with some of these other groups. I mean, they's that's happening. That's that's one I think that that's that is happening. I think it's important for it to continue. Another thing we talked about the North American model and the not you know, non commercial use. I I think if if Wild Game Meet was a more available in restaurants, people would go yeah, I mean we've how how funny we're kind of touching into your guys this world here a little bit. But how funny is it that you know, captain captive servant. I often get texts from people and people often I work for meat either now people often want to take me out to a restaurant where they serve venison. Often. I mean this is somebody I meet somebody new and they're like, hey, yeah, this restaurant they got he's wild games, so he's gonna love it. Like, yeah, that's great, but that's a captain servant bro. Like that that is exactly the thing that I'm not into. And so we've created this world where we have this abundant resource of wild game, and do we want to bring back some sort of market for it. That's a very complicated concept, but we've all so created by creating this idea of ideology around like eating wild things, we've created this captive We've we've then forced our society too, like if you get approval to push it behind a fence to feed to people as a facimilar for the thing that we're I just when I'm eating, like you know, somebody says, here's your venison steak and I'm at a restaurant and other people like, wow, you know, they'll tell their friends, I went out last night and had the best uh rabbit stew I've ever had, or I've had the best, you know, deer steak I've ever I'm like, you understand that's probably from New Zealand. It's probably a red deer. I've been to those places. I've seen what they do to those animals. It's it's akin to cattle. And so if hunting is gonna promote this urban idea of eating particularly venison, it's almost it's like it's so counterinto it and counterproductive to to to what we're promoting that I find it like, I'm not sure what to do with it. I'm'm sure to be like, people don't come to this restaurant because these are these are deer of whatever kind, you know. And there's been many times where i'b eating an elk steak at a restaurant and thought, this is not an elk. There's no elk I've seen. It's this size, unless it was a unless it was a two year old or a fawn. This is probably a red deer. And you know, so that's a whole. Another is a can of worms. But I mean we're still seeing you know, wildcott samon as opposed to farm raised. I mean there's there's still some hope. Yeah, we can draw that connection to wild, organic, hormone free, et cetera. All those things all want to close out by there's a I said this in a recent conversation um that was sponsored by b h A, and there was so I think there was a general from Boding Cracket in the audience, and so I thought, he's gonna yell me down for saying what I'm about to say. And I say it knowing that it's against a lot of a lot of what we normally think. But here's what I've been thinking of lately. I'll be interested in what you I don't think we've ever talked about this, So the idea of fair chase. You know, I asked the question of fair to what right? Fair to me or fair to the animal. I think a lot of these people that don't understand hunting or think it's oxymarnic and its nature are wondering, you know what fair chase is really denoting? Is it denoting what we talked about, like a code of conduct among hunters or is it is it more about the interaction between the animal and the hunter or the animal and the human. Is it doing both those things at the same time, or is it constructed to just manage the human activity and in a relationship of how we standardize each other. So so what so I asked that question like is it is it animal human or is it human to human? And what's that really means? So from that, I think, Okay, if we were to say, like, what what could fair chase be next? What's the next thing it could help us with? And I think what it could help us with is our interaction with animals specifically and the oxymoronic nature of It's not fair chase to shoot a deer in hip deep snow where it can't move, But it may be more ethical and more efficient if you're just talking efficacy, only to shoot that deer when it can't move right, So it may seem unfair to us, but if you would ask the deer, it'd be like, I don't you know, I don't want you to kill me, probably, but I don't want to suffer either. So if you think it's unfair, but it's gonna kill me quicker and much rather you have that. So I would just say the question I pose is, like, is is fair chase the future fair chase? Does it shift only too regulate the action prior to the killing, right, only regulate our hunting and not our killing, Like how the act of hunting, how whether we shoot from cars, whether we hunt from cars, where we go hunting, how we hunt, But at the moment ament of killing the animal, we choose the most efficient way that we can. We can surmise based on the situation. There's again a lot of unpacking that, but that's what I've been thinking of, Like, is that the next step of fair chase? Does that solve some of the conundrums that come from animal versus human and those conducts that we And you're gonna leave me with that, But that's I'm not gonna leave you with a lot. We'll talk it through. I mean, well, let me start by because we obviously we spent a lot of time thinking about this and have a historical context. The best way I can start to answer that question, and I don't know if I can get all the way through it is fair in our English language has many many meetings, fair ball, fair play fair skin and fair. Just taking it face value implies fair equal. The fair and fair chase is actually derived from the alternative definition of fair, which means genuine, legitimate, appropriate in the circumstance. So if you if you look at fair Chase from that standpoint, hunting is not fair, this is not equal. We have technology, we've got a reasoning and thinking brain, they've got their senses and survivability. There's there's some level playing fields, there's other level of playing fields. So if you if you pull back and say, well, fair Chase is about a genuine appropriate approach um, that might help answer part of that question. I think that definitely does. I think that definitely because, like I said, I think we maybe it helps me if we just like start removing some of the actual end game conducts regulations if it were within fair Chase to say, well, don't kill it this way because that's not fair. Like, let's remove that. And that's that's that You're you're gonna run around a circle in and back of the city, and that's where a personal situational ethics should come in, right, like I think fair Chase could has has and again I'm thinking through that we're all thinking through it because there's no answer to it. But like fair chase has its between you and I, fair chase works between me and the animal. Fair chase doesn't work to me. Like there's that's where my situational and personal ethics come in. And then so so I guess, well, maybe we could get to and it would feel good. Was is how do your how does fair chase and personal situational all kind of mix up in the gumbo? Think about it this way, been there's also fair to yourself, and you know, I look at an honest effort. Um, My most memorable hunts have been you know, cow funds. Sometimes I was successful, times sometimes I wasn't. But and you know, choosing to pass, you know, or that's you know, I don't feel comfortable with that shot. That's a risky shot. And I've wounded an animal before, I've lost him before, I've you know, had the sleepless night and trying to pick up a blood trail the next day over a poor decision. I don't want to relive that again. I think most sportsmen have that core little called a little bird inside or whatever that says, you know, always every hunter I've ever met has that. Yeah, And so I start looking at a fair to myself and and saying, well, this this is how I suit up. This is how I'm going to approach it, and and I'm going to use this ethos, this code to help guide my decisions. Uh in the field, is it is it? Are you applying a level of fairness to the animal? Some people look at it that way. I think it has more to do with me personally. I I don't want to relive a bad experience. I don't want to see an animal suffer because of a poor choice I made. I want to come away with a memorable experience when loser draw. I don't want to cheat. I don't want to have things uh you know, canned or stage. I want a genuine experience. So that's how I start internalizing fair and making it personal to me. That's a great way to put it. And then then I get that's where I get to it was like that articulation, It is great. I think you're just just like it's about I hope you're recording that because I don't remember what I say. What do I say? It's like that Will Ferrell than racist? I blocked out. I blocked out. Um but yeah, II recording all this, um, that's where that's where I stay with that idea all the way to the moment that I'm in front of that animal. I've got myself to a place where I have a code of conduct that I feel it's fair to everybody, right, and I'm following that to a t. And then when I get to that animal, my my real most recent feeling is that it should then shift to the animals importance at the time where I've made the decision that it's time to do the killing. You know, now, I've selected the animal based on my ethical and the constructs of the law, bless my own ethical ideas of what animals should be harvested or killed. Selected from the group. I've done that work. I've done all the adventure work to get to where that animal lives. I've studied its habits, I've done I've done all the work in the way that I feel is proper. You earned it, Yeah, you earned it? Right? Is it that feeling of you sit down beside that dead animal, You're like, oh, this was this feels right? Yeah? There's no way We've tried to articulate it by saying purity score, but people get that all twisted up. So we don't do that anymore. But it's like when you know it, you sit down inside that animal, you know it like there's it's it's infallible. It either is right or it wasn't right. And so for me, I've started to think of I don't I don't necessarily to this what I'm hunting it, but make hunting way way boring and heavier than I want it to be. But at the time I get to the point where I'm gonna kill that that animal is close either close enough where I know I can get close enough. Then I start to think about just how cleanly can this go down? You know? So now I've done all the personal work to get myself to the situation where where I have an opportunity kill an animal. Now it's about the animal. It's not about me anymore. It's not about any ego, it's not It's just about dispatching this thing is as cleanly as possible, because that will help fulfill the first part, which was those personal fair chase ethics, that that tract you made with yourself. I made a contract with myself. What would be a failure of that contract if if then there's a big bucket eighty yards, it's a failure of the contract. If I'm like, he's eighty yards, I'll never get another shot. Let me just whack an arrow out there, knowing that I've got a chance of killing it. If I get forty yards closer, I've got into killing it, you know. And so that's how I started to look at it. Now, how fair chase fits into that, Still working on it, but you know, I think it does. I mean, you you just said it. You're you're weighing the margin of error, and that's you know, if it's a guiding principle, that's that's part of it. You know, you you, like you said, you've done all the adventure and preparation to get to that point. Um, that's part of fair chase. That's that's driving you to do that. You know, you got out and you shot your bow every night. You got you know, all your equipment tuned, and you knew where your maximum effective range was going to be, and that's all part of the equation. And then you're there by yourself, or was just one buddy or a person you have to make this call about ending the life of something, and that's sucking. You know, like that's a that's a big deal and it should be a big deal. So I think, you know, rewind all that backs. It's like what is fair chase? To me, it's like the the what it's gonna mean in the future, I think is just just it'll just become as it all as what it already is. An articulation two both inside our community but also without outside of our community, of all this stuff we're talking about, of this whole dance of look at it this way. Say you chose not to take that shot, and you came back to camp and you know, replayed that that encounter for your buddies back at camp. Would you feel good about that decision and telling that story going you know, hey, I got close, it was a buck. I was after it just wasn't right, and I just I said no, I let him walk. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fulfilling. Yeah, here's the story. Like somebody people probably beat me up for this, but this is something I think a lot of people have you ever been through? I can understand. I was this is probably eleven years ago and I was this is my second baited bear hunt, and I was in Quebec, at a place with my my dad. It's a matter of fact, and I I had seen very few black bears in my life. And black bears are historically possible to judge, hard to judge in a lot of ways. So when you go on a baited hunt, they'll say, if it's big as the barrel, go for it, and and cool back to this place where we were in. Coolback is there's not there's you know, a two pound bears is a big bear, unlike a lot of places. And so I'm sitting in the box blind like mosquitoes, and this bear comes in, grabs, grabs a piece of meat, rotten meat, runs off. I'm like, hmm, I think that was big and that bear is big enough he comes back, I'm gonna kill him. It was like like a flash decision to think that. So like, if he does that again, I'm gonna have to get a quick shot off. Well, there's bear comes back and he gets behind the barrel and puts his head around and I think, oh, that's you know, that's a big enough bear. And he then finally puts his front shoulder around him fifty yards in the bait. So it's an easy shot rifle boom. He drops, half his body behind the barrel, halfs in front. I go walking up and this bits, you know, a one year old bear. I mean it might as well have been. I mean the thing was four three ft long, and I just remember standing there going looking over this thing. I'm, you know, four at the time. Somewhere in there, I remember thinking, very honestly, thinking maybe I'll bury it, because I was like the shame, feeling the shame of killing this tiny little bear, feeling the shame. I'm still gonna eat it. I'm still gonna do all the things I would do if it was a big bear, but like feeling the cultural shame of doing that. I stood there for a minute and thought about burying it. I didn't, but I thought a part I was looking around, like where might I stuff this thing so I can keep hunting and and not have the shame of this thing. And so I didn't do that. Called the out there, he came pick me up, and they spoke French, so I'm sure they were like, look this guy. This guys didn't understand. There was another veteran bear hunter in camp who had just showing pictures all week of all these giant bears he had killed, and so we went to pick him up in the dark. I remember him coming out of the stand and his face you could almost see his face. It was so white in the darkness. And he came up and he had shot a bear like the same size as my bear. And he did the same thing I did, you know, And this is a guy that was all week in camp just I'm a big bear hunter. I'm the bear hunting guy. And he did the same thing I did. And so in some weird way I felt good about like, oh, thank god someone else did it. I don't feel so bad. So all that ship, I think it's just I say all that to say that that happens like there is a standard that you're trying to play by. There's rules at a standard. And you know you mentioned you know another fit for fair Chase. Fair Chase is also you don't have to edit any of your story. I mean, think about that when you telling your story to you know, buddies at camp or you know whatever, how is your hunting season? Well left out the part about, you know, my first shot hit him here, and the second shot hit him there, my four shot hit him there because he was running in four hundred yards fair chase spares you from having to edit your story, and it also gives you a street crad if you if people, if somebody has known me Homy for ten years and I come back with a story about killing a tiny bear, shooting an elk in the guts or something, They're like, yeah, we know, we know the standard that this person has. And you know that that's this is a fluke and not not because there was in preparation or not because there wasn't thought. Well, then you'll find that, you know, people gravitate toward like minded people. You'll you'll have buddies that you know want to continue to hunt with you because you you don't have the same standards, go about your business the same way. You know, we've probably all been in camp with you know some outlier that's just this guy is trouble, yeah, or you know, distance yourself from that person. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's there's also learnings, right, you also learn every year every year I feel like I get I'm a different hunter. I think every year, I said, I'll sit back in August and think like, okay, what's what's this year? I mean, it wasn't always like some big public land advocate. I didn't know. There's many years I didn't understand what it really was. Now and I think about hunting, I think about what public things canna go to, you know, So I think I change every year in that way, and those crappy experiences are just a better way to articulate like I'm different now. You know, I probably would would I hunt ever bait maybe, but I wouldn't. Um, I don't hold it up like I might have. Then, you know, I see it as a not a lesser form of hunting, but for me personally, not something I would do. Certainly something not something I would fly to Canada. So it's just things change, people change, and certainly hunting has changed. Hunting is about challenges and problem solving and so that's always a learning. I'm still learning. Um. That's one of the reasons I love bow hunting. It's it's it's a chess game, constant chess game. And where a fair chase came in is it gave you a way to solve those problems, address those challenges in an appropriate way. That's all. Yeah. I can't say it better than that. Cool, good place to end it. Hey man, Thanks get all covered. I don't think you can completely cover it, but we took a pretty good swipe at it. But we'll pick this back up at some bar and some trade show. Absolutely all right, Thanks you, hey, thanks Bro, appreciate it. Thanks, that's it. That is allis number seventy four in the books. Thank you to Keith Balford, Thanks to m Me Warren, and welcome to the Media Podcast Network. To Remy, and thanks for Phil the engineer for always being always being here for me. It's likely my emotional crutch. He's always supporting me, helping me. Uh. That was a great episode, man, And we're barreling very fast towards the peak time of hunting season, which is why, if I haven't said it already on this podcast, I think I have multiple times. You should go and subscribe to Cutting the Distance, Remy's new podcast. It's on our website, it's on iTunes, it's on Spotify, it's on Google Play, it's everywhere the podcast show up. Go check it out, Go check it out, Go check it out. But check it out. Remy and I have worked very hard on this, specifically Remy Um and I've I've been been there along the way to kind of see this thing through. We were working hard on it for for many months and so we're glad to see it out in the world. So you can listen to it and enjoy it every single week on Thursdays. The other thing you need to do is go to the mediator dot com. If you're not on the mediator dot com regularly, you need to be. You need to be there. Have a newsletter you can go subscribe to. That newsletter comes out every Wednesday evening and there's a lot of kick ass content on it. Right now, we're running this thing called fact Checker. Fact Checker has a lot of good content. For example, our daddy long legs poisonous? Are they venomous? Things of that nature. Fact Checker is basically anything you want to know in the outdoors, we'll fact check it for you. So right into us fact Checker at the meat Eator dot com. Some kind of claim that you'd like us to check out, and some of our intrepid reporters, including Spencer new Heart, will go out and figure out if it's true or not for you. So go to meeting dot com. It's great, you're gonna love it. A lot of recipes, a lot of other stuff go there, And I think that's it for this week. I just want to end by saying thanks to everybody for for hanging with us. UM. We have really had the my d ms on Instagram, th HD, It's meeting dot com has been lightened up recently to a point where it's hard for me to keep up. But please keep sending that feedback, Please keep letting us know what you think, good and bad. It's important to us, UM and I never could have imagined we'd get this much feedback and have this many folks listening to this show, and it is humbling and exciting, and we're gonna keep it going. Next week on the Hunting collectible'll leave you with a little old number seven, Oh number seven, Tennessee, who whiskey got me dragging heaven and uh and just stopped. It looks good to me. They're gonna have to department to the FIDEI Red w

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