00:00:01 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I've been O'Brien and today I am in the Lost Wages, Nevada. Uh here at the Shot Show and I'm hanging out with Ryan Callahan and the Mediator crew as always, and UH my friend, a longtime friend, Ian Harrison, who is currently the editor in chief of Recoil Magazine, which is a one of the better gun magazines out in the world. It's on news stands and you're able to subscribe to it as well. I believe it'll they'll mail it to you. Uh. It's a great conversation. Ian has uh an incredible background when it comes to firearms ownership. His perspective is a unique one, and you'll find out why. In this podcast. We delved into, uh, some of the more political discussions we've had in the past. That can be I will warn you they can be. They can fire folks up. Everyone will have their opinions about our discussion, but I think what, as always we tried to do is to examine these things. Don't be afraid to wait into tough issues and examine them with pragmatism and a careful nature. So hopefully you'll agree with that as you listen to episode number seven with Ian Harrison. Hi, Ian, Hello, Ben, how are you? I'm finding down here? I mean, how how better could I be? I mean, I'm hooked up to an IVY I know me too. And m Callahan's here, Hey, cal Hello, how are you? I mean, what do you what do you call it? A non combatant here, combatant kind of on his nut, hooked up to an IVY observer. And when you know we're in Vegas, this is what day three four? Yeahs day three in Vegas. Um, this is responsible. It's prophylactic. Yeah. I don't know what that word means, but I'll go I agree. Uh. You know, when you're in Vegas, it's a lot of long nights and and the shot show is the sickness that has passed around via handshakes and hugs and general mouth breathing, and there's a lot of that going on. Um, while we're doing is fighting back and we're taking the battle to the enemy. Yeah, right now, it's being as aggressive as we can. It's definitely prophylactic. That's what we're doing. Your lovely co editor at Recoil, Your lovely editor, Candice was also a registered nurse. She is delightful and delightful for sure. Um, so she hooked us up. And so now we're going to use our IVY bags as a timer when the bags are empty. The podcast coming to a close. I would like also to have a big shout out to Phoenix Fly Department, who supplied all of the So, Phoenix a hefty You're great, You're great, thank you. Without you, Without you, we would be pale faced stumbling, Yes, pale face stumbling, hungover and dehydrated. And we've got B twelve involved. Yeah, sucker vegans, Yes, the sucking vegans. You're the editor of Carnivore. We work for meat Eater, So sucond vegans I think is implied, but we'll go right at him now, cal Why did you not want to get hooked up to an ivy? Oh you know, I'm just going with the old fashioned way of having a tall canny beer here. That's right right, water, And yeah, ironically, we're all drinking beer now while the ivy is flowing. Candice, does that counteract the does that in any way counteract the IVY experience to be drinking during this? Oh? Wow? Okay, would you mind's going fast. This mine's going too fast. Cannus is slowing down my ivy because it's going too fast. Otherwise we're not gonna have We're gonna get halfway through a story then, and then we just kept to Yeah. Yeah, we gotta slow these babies down because we got like, we gotta go an hour or two here. Um, yeah, mine's already. Really it feels cold. Does your feel cold? No, I'm feeling pretty good now. I'm so cold. It was like the position, Yeah, Ian's position is all messed up. Yeah, I'm coming off. Well, this is great. I'm happy we're doing this. Sure it's entertaining for the listeners. Cale, Yes, sir, were you will you at least take a shot of be twelve or something? Yeah? Absolutely, you would do that. Have that worked for me last year? Do you see? Okay? Alright, well, I mean in my eye and you're taking shot? Are you sure it was betwelve? And you? How was it that? Well? Behind a dumpster that looked like nurse says they were charging like fifty bucks. I found somebody behind the players for like five. I had a friend of mine just texting me. It lives in Bozeman and said like, we should start one of these ivy hydration deals because you pay like fifty bucks there in Vegas and they'll come to your room. Um, so maybe Candice could Moonlight has that. But they'll come to your room and they'll hook you up, or you can go down there and they put you in like we did it last year. They put you in a like a lounge chair and they put turn on like Netflix, and they just pump you full off or whatever you've paid for them to administer. It's fantastic. So maybe maybe that's a secondary business. Do you think Bozeman would support it. I don't know. Maybe Phoenix would. Yeah, I mean Phoenix Matchro is big enough to support it. But one thing I don't like abo Phoenix is everything is so spread out. You know, it takes you an hour and a half to drive into the other So would that be economically viable. Maybe you'd have to factor in that time, Milledge. I think we can do it, Bozeman. Everything's about fift teen minutes away. A big, big part of this too is you know, you got your you got your high endurance athlete crowd around to it. Especially Yeah, yeah, and you'd have to say it's our teas and all farm to vein. This is all non gm O, it's gluten free b twelves. Yes, well, we were talking before the podcast that where Ian and I met, and I feel like, you know, I've been in the industry for you know, like eleven years, maybe something ten years, and um Ian was like maybe the first person that I met outside of the walls of the n r A where I worked at the time. Huh. If I'd known that, you would never be uh. Ian was on a show called Top Shot indeed, and uh tell us about that show. Ian so reality based competition format shooting show, which doesn't sound like those words should ever go together, but then managed five seasons out of it and they did a good job of bringing the shooting sports to a wider audience. So yeah, I've I have to thank everybody who's evolved with that and allowing me to bridge over from what I was doing before and into the shooting industry, and um so I forced got my way entirely through it. I'm not qualified to do anything that the things that I've been doing for the last twenty years, So um this is just one more thing that I was not qualified And what year. What year was this that you won? This? Believing then this is nine years ago, nine years ago. Yeah, people don't even know. Kids that today don't even know about top show. There's nine year ten year old kids run around. I've never seen it. Unbelievable. Yeah, I have to do reruns. But it was five seasons and you were the first champion, and then you were appeared on other show other seasons, right, yeah, yeah, I came back on every every season after that, A is either next. But again that was not qualified to do. So there any clips around him this Like when like did the it was the History Channel there, so it was, like you said, it was a mainstream you know, at the time, I'm working at the NAIs and editor for American Hunter American Rifleman, and we're looking for mainstream you know, acceptance of guns and gun culture. And it really was that, right, I mean absolutely, and uh it spawned a bunch of other sort of me to firewers related reality shows, which and I'm pleased to say that I think Top Shot is the only firewmers related reality TV show that did not result in a criminal conviction. You're right. I was a part of another one of those what was that. So there were various other ones like I think Sons of Gun, Sons of Guns. I knew that family very well, um, and I actually had also I wrote an article, a feature article in Your Life and Your Win, uh from I can write from, and then Sons of Guns came out and I did the same for those guys. Um, you know that was maybe my beat at the time, and that your story works out well. The story of Sons Guns, the elevid show from Discovery Channel perhaps not properly vetted individuals. Yeah, I would say that's probably the case. There was a little bit of some improper things going on in the Red Jacket Gun Shop. Um, and so that that is a long since defunct and some folks are in jail and absolutely justifiably, absolutely justifiably. So I don't I don't want to talk about that. You can look it up. Just you can look up I'll google that and read it. We don't need to cover that here. But uh, yeah, there was another show after that. We're a similar thing. What was it? We don't even need to say. The show that was Colorado Basic another show something that dude went down for other to various sacks and so. But you, you you and your fellow top shotters, because I see a lot of them walking around here. Man, Like back in the day, man, you guys had it was like a family. Yeah, uh yeah, from that show. In fact, I saw one of them this morning, and uh, Chris Sereno remains one of my longest standing friends in the firearms industry. And he was my rival at last Dude Standing in season one and we went head to head and you know, I won, he lost, and we've remained great friends ever since. And he was staying at my house just last week. Man. It's it's it's interesting because you know, it's a reality TV show, it's a production for television. But I remember from those years, like you guys were tight. You would just show up at the trade shows and it was it was, it was a real thing. Yeah. I even I met up with j J. Ricaza, another champion, and that guy's been crushing. He's a he's a beast, he's an athlete, he's a he's somebody that children should look up to, because j J is one of the nicest guys you ever meet. And yeah, I ran into him a range day on Monday. And if you're gonna look up to eat and you should at least be an adult, not a child. Yeah, I'm probably the worst example of humanity your children will never meet. But JJ, on the other hand, you know, he's a prince among men. Yeah. Yeah, Well that was an interesting time. And so that's when we met because I watched the show and thought, here's a person that uh and then I heard a little bit about your story and I was like, wow, here's a person that needs to be highlighted. And um, so we did, right. You came, you came to I came to nime h Q and did the interview with you with your good self. And as a result of that and a chance of meeting with Mark Keith in a corridor, I said, he asked me, you know, what do you want to do now? And I said, well, I kind of I want to go of in the firearms industry full time, and he said, let me make a phone call. And as a result of that, and of totally grateful to Mark all that, but as a result of that, I ended up working at Crimson Trast for two years as the pr guy and taking credit for that. All this time. Yeah, I've been telling people like you gotta start because I well indirect many of you got me there, and yeah, I mean I like meeting with Mark, but Mark was I took you to the hallway the bathrooms down there, and you you were at it there. Talk to everybody you can. Yeah, if you see a guide, it looks important. So you know, I'm and were where were you at two thousand ten? Were you US citizen? Uh? Not quite? Not quite. Um. I was working in the construction industry, and um, I was started off as a timber framer in the construction industry and then went rose through the ranks and that, and then ended up being general manager of the company that I was working for. And then they kind of gave me a checkbook and said, go west young man established a new branch of this organization I was working for in the Poland, Oregon area and did that, and then while I was there, I went on to top shot audition for that, then went through that whole sordid process and then came out the other end, and apparently I managed to get through it without people discovering my entirely, you know, my my gross lack of skill. So I blowed my way through that and then Ben invited me to the headquarters and editor in chief of American Rifleman, Mark Keith made a phone callum on my behalf and hooked me up with Crimson Trace, who are a great company and in the Northwest would staff with some fantastic people. And the founder of the company, Lou Danielson, is like everybody's crazy uncle. He's he's larger than I was trying to find him this week. But the dude is to say, it's like everybody everybody's crazy uncle who goes and tinkers and invents things, and he's just a wonderful, wonderful human being. And there are lots and lots of blue stories and uh and as as as a result of that, I was in the right place at the right time when my current gig with Recoil, they needed a new editor in chief and I thought maybe I could do that. I mean, nobody told me I couldn't. No, Yeah, nobody seemed to have instructed up to this point. But yeah, you I was going into marketing at the time. I had been an editor and then went to Peterson Tunning and been an editor there, and then I was going into marketing. When you were going from marketing into editorial, Yeah, yeah, so who's the biggest hole me? Maybe? Yeah. Anyway, anyway, if anybody's listening to this and wants to give me free gear, I'm in Uh so you you know, you spent some time, you know, like that's it's an interesting turn, Like for for how I think that your life proceeding top shot and in our meeting, in your conversation with Mark, it was even probably more interesting, but it's it's an interesting turn to where you are today from from a reality TV show and I remember just being like this dude's in construction, former military, British military. He wins the reality show and now he's doing what he loves to do in a country where he's allowed to do it like it's it's he has pretty much the American dream. Yeah, you know, and for any any detractors of this great nation, I would say that, you know, well, first off, get your head out of your offs and um yeah, it's just like this is the one place on earth that I know that offers those kind of opportunities. But if you want to seize them, then that's all down to you. You can't just sitting here awesome let them. You expect things to be handed to you on a plate. And like I said, I've been phenomenally lucky. But um, at the same time, you know I haven't just coasted through it. Yeah, you know, you work hard and you get there. Um, what's you know you're explain your current gig? Okay, So current gig is I'm the editor in chief of Recoil Magazine and well that's why, aw we started out Recoil is. I don't know, how would we describe Recoil Countess, how would we describe Recoil the honor the most honest and visually captivating gun magazine based out of Phoenix. That was I wouldn't say just missed out of things, but we will bass out of l a. But right is subsequently that was changing, but I'll touch on that in a minute. Um. So yeah, So Recoil was founded in I think twenty eleven, um if I if I remember correctly, and the whole premise of it was that, um, a bunch of really smart dudes got together and sort of looked at the the marketplace at the time and in publishing they were in probably polishing background, and they decided that you know what, there's an awful lot of gun magazines out there and most of them are shit, and they decided to create their own and by doing so kind of set the bar in terms of certainly graphic layout and quality of photography, and um yeah, so that that was kind of it to start off with. And since then, uh well let me back up a little bit. So recall this See one was launched a short show twleven and then it was an s I p SO or special interest publication, So it was a one off at that point and the kind of testing the waters just to see if it would fly, and it did, so more issues were created and it was then became a bi annual publication, and then subsequently when I took it over, was kind of you know, okay, it's going to be a quarterly something like that, but by s U four because it was created out of California, by guys who who are kind of tied into the California firearms scene, which is not perhaps the most vigorous. We'll call that an oxymen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they kind of ended up saying some things that they probably shouldn't have done, and as a result of that, it was kind of an object lesson as to how to ruin a brand over the course of a weekend, and I then had the opportunity to step in and sort of rescue it. Since then managed to get a great team hired, some really dedicated and uh sort of creative individuals. UM and hiring, hiring and managing creatives, as you well know, has its own set of has its kind of like a box of fireworks exploding. It Ye, lots of things happening, many different directions. Well, explain to people how like what you're um because we're in the media world here, so we can talk about it all day. But for folks who don't know the the general like you read Field and Stream, you read Peers and Hunting, what's happening there is the advertising is running the ship. There. There are two business models in this industry. Explain those and give people an idea what you are doing. And I you know, I'm not judgmentalist to which one is better. The one that we operate on is that in my most important, my most important client, the one guy that I or girl that I have to satisfy is the person who goes to the local newsstand and stumps up nine dollars because we have a nine dollar cover price. It's so you know, it's an expensive magazine and they put down nine bucks of the hart and cash every couple of months in order to buy an issue. Um, that is the person that I write for. There. Now, there is another business model, which is pretty which is prevalent and pre eminent in the industry and has worked very well over the past few decades, and that In that one, you kind of look at what the numbers are. So if I'm offering, say a two year subscription at you kind of figure okay, that doesn't really cover the cost of postage. And I know is if I was a writer working for that magazine, then you know, all of my income was funded from the cover price. At a subscription of twenty fours, then I wouldn't be getting out of bed um. So in that case, okay, how did that does that? Does that company? How does that publication make money? Well, it's advertising driven, So you pump up your circulation numbers so that you can go to advertise and say, okay, I'm reaching half a million people and advertisers go okay, so it sounds good. Yeah. What they call CPM CPMP impression and it's you know, per times a thousand basically, and and those folks are, like you said, a cheaper subscription means generally more subscribers, which means you can charge and advertise more for those. More about super simple. So your your page price per advert within the book is you know, you can charge more for it, and that's what covers you overheads, and that's what pays you, right is And that's what you know to come to me sew profits We're all in here, all in this business to make profit. Yeah, and that's what it is. And there's no you know, there's no shame in either either way. I'm predisposed to working for the audience. You know, I'm and I'm and I've done you know, obviously in my past been a part of a lot of different editorial operations, and um, I always have felt and felt very strongly that the relationship with the reader, the one you're talking about, particularly in your case, you you can you know exactly what that person, how that transaction happens. They go to the news stand, they pick it up, they pay for it, they go home, and they read it. Um, I feel like that's that's the most important thing. You know, agree with that, And like I say, I'm not denigrating anybody else's business model, but that is the way that we do it. Yeah, And it says this is a just a motivation and not saying that any of these any other publication is driven by anything else other than the relationship with the audience. But there's a purity scale somewhere in there that says, you know, how does your business model inform your intent in some ways? Agreed? Agreed? Now does it is successful? Now? Which one? Which one is the most successful at the moment? And I think what we've seen is a cultural shift over the last decade or so, and it's mainly been driven by digital content and the accessibility of other people's opinions online. Whereas now it's kind of the audience recognizes that there is a pay to play element and a lot of print publications, and that business model is it's still around. It certainly is still around. But you know we have been successful operating on the other the other model. Well, and you think, like the audience can sniff it out right, I mean, Cal, you're you know, you read and watch a lot of content, like can you whoa cal reads? I can read you read a lot of third secret, it's a dirty secret. You can tell when somebody's you know, somebody's not an altruistic in there and their editorial. Uh oh yeah. Man. It was like a heartbreaking moment, you know, years years ago, you know, forking over some cash. Um, when I was super super into bow hunting, you know, for the first time. So it's like the strongest that y'all ever experienced something is when you're like diving in for the first time and really wanting to learn it. Yeah, you would convent at that point. Yeah, there's nobody more enthusiastic than by this magazine. And it's you know, it's like review of the years you know, best archery sites. I'm like, cool, every fucking site is the best site on the market. Like, wait a minute, that can't be true. But it must. It's in print, it must be true. Yeah. No, there has been. I mean it's it's like we can be honest here, Like there's been some degradation of the relationship between the reader and then the writer. I mean there has in the editorial and that sort of probably over the years based on the business model where the advertiser pays the bills. I mean it just has. And um, I'm not afraid to say it, and I know it to be true from being a part of it in a lot of ways. Um again, it employs some of my best friends and people I know to be good folks and people I know to care about readers and care about information. So it doesn't it doesn't always corrupt, but it's it has the ability. It's ever present, and it's ever present for sure. So what you know, what are you excited about Recoil? Wise? Now like you can you give us what's like the state of of guns? What's the state of the industry right now? We don't, uh, well they well, you see, excited about Recoil. We've since grown Recoil from one brand, one one publication, which was a quarterly when I took it over, and now six times a year, so bi annual, so bi monthly, bi monthly, um slapping around the here somebody. And then we've added titles which are been a natural extension from from our brand. So we then stood up a sort of prepper light magazine which focuses on guys who are not so much have their forty acres and a mule out in the back country and they're drying their own feces for fuel, because you know those guys who already have a had stuff tapped down, you know, they already know what they're talking about. But for people who are maybe in an urban area and want to get prepared for the next natural disaster, be at the fires in California or a hurricane or whatever. So that was the next publication that we stood up and that's been that's been accessful and well received. And then after that we created a publication to cater to people who carry concealed weapons on a daily basis, and one of those is me. And after that the one that we're most particularly excited about the moment myself and Nurse Candae over in the corner there, and that is Carnival. And we kind of have the same philosophy I think with meat Eata and carnivore. Hey, there's a lot of crossover in the in the theme theme of the titles as well. In that ah for example, And you contributed to the first issue as I did that. Then we are all about hunting, but hunting is an experience, and hunting as not so much pursuing antlers, but definitely pursuing time of field with friends and family, and putting high quality protein on the table. And I do have to say, I don't know if you have it published somewhere where people can access it right now. With that, your first issue, first letter from the editor, is just a thing of beauty. Like the messaging in there is is something people need to that's something people need to read before they Yeah, sometimes you need to speak bluntly about you know, about where we are and what we're doing and why we're doing it. Yeah. Good, thanks, that's good. Yeah, you know, I think as well, because if we do that, if we take that approach and we address it as you know, this is the way that all of our ancestors have managed to put meat on the table. And and as Steve when Now has said, and I use this quote all the time, not hunting is a particularly recent phenomenon. And as everybody befull that pre industrial ever, you know, if you didn't hunt, then you were a widow. Well that's the numbers are there's a hundred and every time I say anything sounds wrong, but it's right. A hundred thousand generations of people lived on the hunter gatherer diet prior to the industry revolution, like prior to the availability of industrialized foods, and then I think it's one or two generations in the industrial ages. And then you've got to processed foods, and there's like a generation a half two generations of people that have lived I think it's three now, um, that have lived in you know, the processed food environment. And how quickly we've forgotten, how quickly we've lost the knowledge of that exact fact. And that then that came from one of the doctors who founded the Paleo diet. This is a guy saying like, this is in your genes. You are experimenting in a way that yeah, yeah, we've now normalized eating cheetos, And whereas mabously like your head, yeah, I know we've normalized that, we've normalized cheetos. But yeah, I mean I think that's it's just that's the truth. You know. I feel like a lot of times, you know, because we care about this thing so much and we want people to understand what it is, we we sound like a broken record, like listen, this is this is this is us. Like research your humanity and you will find there's no doubt about it. You will find that's someone in your past, uh, killed an animal, native you know a good friend of mine, well, Greg Dean, he used to buy by way of dating a gal. He spent a lot of time volunteering at a food shelter in South Idaho, Southern Idaho, and um, he was just shocked at how much food they could take in and how little food they could actually distribute because people would show up and they unless it is in a box in a you know, basically pre prepared way, they just don't have any clue that it is even food. So there could be a thirty pound bag of beans next to a three ounce like add water bag of beans and they see one is food and the other is ballast a pillow. Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly, I throw that in the back of the truck during the winter season. Well just try it, you know, just try one time. Like if you you know anybody out there wants to try it, have somebody cook all your meals for a year. Don't touch the ingredients or the meals. Just take a year and don't do any work, any culinary work at all for yourself or your family, and see how it changes you and your expectations, your perspective, Like what you have, what food is, do you changes like, I've never done that, but an experiment that I would want to inflict on them. But there's a lot of people that do. There's a lot of college students that that do you know, There's a lot of people, uh that just that's what they know. There's a lot of people that are quote unquote foodies that like to go out have other people feed them, and that's what food. Being a foodie is. You're like, yeah, but you're talking about the flavors. I'm talking about the work that's being involved. Yeah, being involved. So it's it's in a way scary, but in a way just like we're it's not gonna stop, like we're not, you know, this conversation ain't gonna put it to a halt. So yeah, I think we need to be realistic as to expectations. There are only a certain number of people who will listen to that message and actually act on it. And you know, and that's fine too, because you know, I'm not going to dig the people's lifestyles. And there may be good reason for people to do that, lack of time, family pressures, that sort of thing. But I think eventually, once those prescious change, perhaps that people might be more receptive to the to the message and Okay, go and kill something. Um take it all the way through from slow food man. Man, it's about the slowest food there is. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Like, not everybody's gonna be able to go out and do that stuff for many, many, many reasons. They also need to understand that that is how this works, all of it works, and so they better damn well be uh cognizant of the fact that if they buy it in the grocery store, it does not mean that something didn't die. Well. This I've been I've been advocating this since like episode two of this program. I believe that we should do a deal where you have to get a license to buy meat. This means you're gonna like it. Okay, this meeting, and this is one by the government, right this meat licenses administered by it, but some sort of government the government. Yeah, yeah, it could be a state. Now that could be like now you fucking yeah, I thought I had it. Listen, it's in your King's super's card or you have to go, so you go to just like you get a driver's license, what you have to do is go to the meat. You have to go to a factory farm, and you have to take a knife and chop the head off a chicken, pluck that chicken, and like, you know, hang out with Mr Purdue and cut it in in vacuum, seal it, and send it off to everyone for everyone to eat. Once you've done that, they give you a little chicken license. And then when you go to the store. When you go to the store, they're like, sir, do you have your chicken license? And you're like, yes, here, it's a little laminated card with a picture of you and a dead chicken. You're like, here, I've got a chicken license. You're like, all right, perfect, You're allowed to buy chicken now. And if you'd like to buy a pig, you have to go to you have to go wack a pig on the head. And if you like to buy a cow, you know, beef, you have to have killed a cow. I'm a cognizant meat consumer. I'm a cognizant met Because I'm now, there's a lot of holes in this Uh you just called out one of them. A lot of people will say I'm some kind of comedy for one more government restriction. I'm not. I'm not. If anybody who's unfamiliar with my background. I was a shooter in the UK. Wait wait wait, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute, I'm running the show here. I don't know the reason I would say this. The reason I wanted you to come on the show is exactly what we're about to talk about. And I want to go line by line. I don't want to skip anything. Um because you're, like I said, your your story that that we've already covered after top shot was interesting, but the real interest comes prior, and the real perspective that you can provide comes prior to Okay, So you were born in what year? Damn, I don't want to say it because I'm so freaking incient. I'm feeling so incient old you'll die before a little bit. What do you first remember about life? You were born in what town? I was born in the northeast of England, and um, yeah, group there, normal normal life, normal happy childhood and then uh, one day, my my folks are this little with some of my other wellito was stand this uh sort of weekend place on a working farm, which I think is where I got to introduce to the idea of animals. They sort of end up on people's plates. It's actually you know, there is there, it is walking around and then subsequently, you know, I means, Dick, make that connection so we can place on the farm and then manage to finagle away into convincing the farmer to let me shoot at twenty two and that was it. It's like, ah, this is awesome. This is what I want to do for my entire life. Now I want to shoot things. And and as a result of that, you know, I went through the normal progression of a bb gun and then a shotgun, and then then started competitive handgun shooting, and then went to school, joined the army and became a I was serving British Infantry Office three eight years and then uh in seven the British government confiscated my handguns as a result of a school shooting. They changed the law and said, okay, anybody who's you know, you guys, your psychol insics, and even though you didn't do anything bad and you didn't do nothing wrong, but we're gonna have you know, indulge in some collective punishment. Was called the dune blame dun blame yep, don't blame mesaca and not too similar to what the school shootings that have happened in recent vintage in India, in America, indeeds, And so because that happened in an election, Yeah, the two political parties were vying to out um to do each other in terms of restricting people's liberties and throwing the firearms community under the bus as escapegoat for the actions of a lunatic. And they decided that, you know, collective punishment was in order, so they confiscated mine and other people's lawfully held firearms. And as a result of that, Yeah, described the day that that you had to you know, I gotta jump in here one second, because the only time I've heard this story, Ian and I had just butchered a black bear and we were we were literally, yeah, in the kitchen. Yeah, I mean getting that meat prepared to feed thirteen people, and really that was like our only opportunity to just like, you know, through the course of good kitchen talk, get to know each other a little bit. And um. Yeah. The fascinating part to me is it was twenty people. Yeah, so there were only that number of pistol shooters in a country of a population of what about sixty million at the time, And there have been previous restrictions on yeah, yeah, but until nineteen twenty three, there was no there were no firearms lows, effectively no firearms lows in the UK. You could walk into a hard waist and buy a machine gun before then. And what happened was because of after the end of the First World War, in the mismanagement of the vet and population returning from that, the Bolshevik Revolution actually started getting a toe hold in the UK and so you know, casting managed back to what happened then that time in history. So you have a large working class purple population which had been used as canon foder for four years, and they came back to a country that kind of did not appreciate what they've done, what they've been through, and to straight into the effectively the opening phases of the Great Depression. And so you know, the Bolshevik message was being accepted and had a ready audience at that time. So as a result of that, the British government and establishment discided that okay, and in the wording of the the Cabinet minutes at the time, they wanted to ensure that firearms were available to friends of the government, and as a result of that, they instituted the first firearms restrictions in the United Kingdom. And like I said, prior to that, you could walk into a hardware store and buy a machine gun. And it's a story that is very very rarely told and um, you know, armed crime as a result because of that. Well it let me backtrack, So that was the first firearms restrictions and that's sort of kind of set the scene for every subsequent incremental increase in screwing with guys right owned firearms. And we went all the way through up to the nineteen sixties sixty eight, I believe, restrictions on shotguns and it was just sort of just drip drip, drip, drip drip, chipping away people's firearms rights. And as a result, now you know the there's very very little in the way of firearms ownership in the UK. It's regarded as some sort of cultural aberration. And at the point at which you had to turn in, you had two pistols at that virtual Smoke's boarde of handguns most competitive shot pistol shoot Yeah, um, but they were like twenty thousand licensed. But yeah, but by that's only about twenty people who's amazing own handguns. I mean that you could, but you know, licensed to own shotguns, licensed to own lone rifles. And so because of that, these two political parties they're like people, okay, under the bus, you go do the do the math. Yeah, we could win the election. These twenty people don't matter, they don't matter. There's no blip on anybody's red off. And so we was sacrifice and um and they say that we're trying to outdo each other. So Tony Blair, who is uh yeah, don't get me started on that motherfucker. Um No, that's why we're here. We want to get you started on that motherfucker. So yeah, so he decided the point that the firearms new Laws were created, twenty two pistols were were exampt and so he went, that's an opening, that's that's a vulnerability to the Tory establishment. And so he went, no, we need to band twenty two handguns as well. So that was added. That was subsequently added. So there was when this Finman's legislation was enacted, there was a grace period and they the government said okay, well you have to hand them all in. And initially it was the low the lowest drafted was there was no compensation whatsoever, and it's just like hand over your property. And that produced a bit of a backlash in the House of Lords, and subsequently the government revisited the legislation and said, okay, well we're gonna we're gonna compensate you for it at fair market value. So if you just destroyed the market for something, what's the fair market valure you, so they're worthless, We'll give you five dollars exactly pretty much. But you know, you know, shoot as a resourceful people, so we found ways to gain the system, gain the system. Um, And you had about six months, if I remember rightly too, from the passage of the law to the point where you were looking at a ten stretch in pound me in the asked prison if he didn't hand over your guns, it's a weird name for a prison. Her majesty is pound me. The yes. And you're you're you're still active military, still active military, that you're a competitive shooter. Put this set this up for fox. You're a competitive shooter. Um, you're active military. But yet and yet the government decided that despite the fact when you go to work you have all of these instruments of destruction. You're not fit worthy or trustworthy enough in order to have a handgun in your home because someone else, because somebody else might break a law that you are following exactly exactly. And then the last m I checked even in the UK, you murder is illegal. Yes, there you go. I'll google it, but I'm gonna go I'm gonna go with yes on that one. But yeah, I mean that's that's so you experienced that in what year? That was? So? Yeah, at the end of this six month grace period, um, the very last day, I went down to my local police a station wearing uniform and handed over my guns and then went back to work and then checked out machine guns from the armory and then you know, but yes, I went back and did my thing. And and what's the feeling, like, I mean, give people a window into you know, I could guess angry, Uh what you know, what are you feeling when you're turning those guns in? And like, what's the conversation, what's the experience in the police station. Take people into what that might feel like the cop who took possession of them. Kind of he was kind of he realized that the absurdity of the situation. But nonetheless, you know, it's his job. Took my guns off me and give me a receipt for them, and we shook hands, and then I left for the United States. You flew to how but how long? Until it took about six months after that, and then just to finalize the sort of move but yeah, you'll resign my commission um and said, no, funck you guys. If you contrast me the guns, then I don't want to be a citizen here anymore. So moved to the US, follow the dream, ye. And then and as a result, you know, perhaps I'm more pro to a more rapidly pro pro to a than than the majority of people in the United States. But I've experienced it firsthand. And there's a lot of people that that are on the left or or would like to restrict gun ownership in this country that will say and have said to me, and I'm sort of said to you, no one wants to take all your guns. Will never happen, but like, we're not going to take all your guns, we just want to take a few of them. Yeah, Well, I've experienced it firsthand. So saying that from about night the early part of the twentieth century through the end of the you know, not even the end of the twentieth century. They say there's no finance restrictions and it's just an incremental chip chip chip away. And he said, the next everybody wants to just the common sense good laws. That's all we want is common sense concers. Well, guess what happens. The next stage is registration or backdoor registration. And once that happens, it's just like, okay, we know what you have handemen. Yeah, yeah, And there's examples of that in Australia. There's examples of that in England and California and California. So let's just defunct that right now. This is this has happened elsewhere, uh, and we don't want it to happen to us exactly, Like that's that's what we go to work to do, right So that's that's it's sort of the editorial stance that we have is um is not one fucking inch. Well, I'm not compromising, and you have look at you, and I know that, and you have the experience to back it up. I mean the experience and now and you look at the the UK, now, you look at England, now they have, they are looking to I'm not sure how much you've read. I'm sure you have. Looking to restrict knife ownership. There has always been excuse me, not under kind of restricting anything that could possibly be used in a self defense scenario. The government wishes to monopolize the use of violence. Yeah, and like it or not, violence is of active life. Yeah, I mean that's what when I wrote. I mean, I wrote this story for American riflemen back in two thousand ten. That's what struck me. Is this like the the dichotomy of oh, canis is coming over to check them? Is this not going? I got a bigger vein, That's what she was telling me. You know what, ye bear in mind, this is hooked to our arms, but I still have a bigger place squeezing ivy bag. You're gonna have to get play by play because I'm feeling a little dizzy. Guys, my body has never had There's an interesting parallel, you know, to the meat talk that we're having at the beginning here, is um you know, there's so much of the conversation that's driven by people who have no firsthand experience whatsoever. And I've had these conversations I'm like, well, yeah, but what do you think of semi automatic weapons? Like well, let me let me just tell you what semi automatic weapons are, Like what's that? And what do you understand by Yeah, I have a friend, very close friend, um that says things like guns are made to kill and that's the difference between guns and cars. Because I was like, well, what was it just between driving a car into a crowd and taking a gun out? Is all guns are paid to kill? Like It's like, listen, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Guns are made to shoot cars. Guns are meant to expel a projectile. What you use that projecting off is ntially down to the us you know, what it hits when it gets to this terminal impact is up to the user. Where the car drives, whether it's on the road in between the lines the yellow and the white one is up to the user. Where the bullet impacts is up to the user. And that is the fucking difference in that. Let's put that to bed and let's let's get that belief off the table. But yeah, and you're coming to America, Like I said that, the economy is they there's a tragic event right, there's immense sadness, there's a shock, there's all. And then it spends that that goes away. We've seen this in the in the States. That goes away. It spends into a political fervor based on emotion, most times intirely based on emotion. And because you don't have the majority of time, you don't have a perpetrator left to hang the blame on, because these nut joes sucking off themselves nine times out of time. Then okay, so we're looking for we're looking for a bad guy. We always look for the bad guy, and it's a human niche to do. So, so what can we blame? Um, so we blame an inanimate object. If you get your your your assistance, and your protein from the supermarket and that's all that you have, that's all the only exposure that you have to it, then then yeah, anything outside of that is looked as as other and therefore threatening and therefore something that is icky, And why would you do it any other way? Yeah, it's right here. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and you know, and buy my meat on styrofoam traders because animals don't stuff up because of it. Yeah, Well that's why your story is just it doesn't. It didn't need to be about guns. It just was about like your pursuit of as you put as I would put it, or you would put it freedom, like your freedom too to express your enjoyment and your love and your passion for firearms and in the most productive way for you, the people around you and your life. Like yeah, I got dude, I don't know. I'm just I just basically I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, So stick the fucking knows out of mine. You know, I don't care. You know, I don't care who you sleep with as long as it comes, it comes something, and don't um. You know, I have a lot of a lot of gay friends, and I say, okay, you want to get your fighting for equality in marriage, you knock yourselves out, you make the mistake that I did, go for it, Jump in that pool. I mean, it's we There's there's been some as as everyone listening to this one. No, there's been some some talk around, um, the company I work for in this podcast and my voice and what I think around guns and the Second Amendment. Uh, and you know here's what I really think. Wow, man, I don't want to I can't say what I really think because it would have lots of cursing and yelling at a certain individuals. And there's been a little bit of you know, fucking yeah, yeah, well yeah, we said about were drinking beer in Vegas with ivys with yeah, we shouldn't have any rules here, no rules. But I think, um, I always try to look at these things with a pragmatic eye and be like, what about fire ownership is the most important to me? And to me, it's defending my family. That's that's to me. But that doesn't have to be for everyone. That's just to me what it's about. And when someone says, why do you need an air fifteen to devent your family? I'm like, well, have you ever been a part of a natural disaster like I was in Illinois where they wiped it Illinois by living there. There was a tornado that came through and wiped out an entire town and Bob Honeycutt the when I was working at Peters and Hunting, one of my bosses there, Bob Honeycutt, who was was the editor of Shotgun News which is now Firearms and News. His house was wiped off the fucking map. Like just pieces, just rubble, And we went over to his house, and there's people coming in from uh urban areas like Peoria to loot this town Washington, Illinois that had been wiped off the map, and the folks who were defending their houses were doing so with air fifteen and all manner of firearms. So when you're in that position, you want the most perfective tool available to you. So it's easy when you've never been in that position to say, let me limit the tools that are available to you to defend your house, your property, in your life, in that situation. And that's where I got my you know, my big dose of actual perspective when it came to that concept. Yeah, well, um, if you don't have anything belt fed uh and I do, of course you do, probably mounted to the back of a jeep. Then yeah, and the fifteen is the next best semiota copying that takes detachable magazines is perhaps to your best tool for the joke, And okay, cool, And then I'm I'm something might be something that only happens once in a lifetime is a natural disaster, But who the hell are you to tell me what I can and can't use? Yeah, or where I can and can't go hunting. Oh yeah, well private property. Who the hell are you tell me pay taxes on this piece of last Tell me I can't go in here and take the King's dead. There's a I won't say the brand under armour. They have a hashtag that says go where you don't belong, and it's about their hunting. It's a hunting hashtag they have. It says go where you don't belong. And I'm like, well, next time I am bill hunting, and then somebody's backyard in Connecticut. Yeah, I'll be like wearing what are you warring waring about? Good? Yeah, that's why I don't belong here. Well, check Instagrams hashtag. So, yeah, you moved to America where and you moved to where in America? Moved to the great stay it's the permits perhaps the most fireless freedom at the moment um, because you know that's what you do. Yeah, I moved to New York. You're like out of the frying band. Yeah, but to its credit, New York does have some of the best deer hunting in the world. But we don't tell anybody anybody like that because you know there's there is again from US perspective that there is a different story, there's a different narrative. You know, I screw those guys and restricting all our gun rights, and yes, absolutely screw those guys for that. But I've got some good friends that's still in New York and there is some great, great deal hunting. Um. Everybody thinks that New York, You're gonna go hunting in Central Park. Well, no, it's a pretty big place and it offers a lot of diverse terrain from the you know they you know, I love the finger Leggs. That's where I was, and then and then the other on XS as well. Um, beautiful country, that beautiful country. And I actually went. I went to hunting in for the opening day of Yeah, I went to the Allegheny State Park. Um this past day season in November, and it took somebodies out of Phoenix who had never been hunting before and introduced them to hunting on public land and perhaps one of the most populous states in the nation with the most restrictive gun rights. Okay, maybe I'm doing this wrong, but how did they tell their friends about that? What did you do this? We go? Why? What were the British guy to New York on public land with guns, with guns. I mean the reality is though, that's that's a more realistic way to do it for most people over and it's like, yeah, that's where the most people live. Yeah, exactly accessible and and uh it was, you know, the typical East Coast opening day experience. So a bunch of guys walking around in orange vests and you know, it's fairly pad act, you know, the you know, there is a lot of dudes in the woods out there, and so you have to walk a few miles in order to thin the crowds out. And yeah, we got into it and we dropped a deer and hold it back out butchered it there at the cabin that we rendered in this great state park and I'm damn, am I just giving away my honey holes and uh we it sounds like no, not really, but you know, I gotta I got a little six pointed and um you butchered in that evening and we did Venison Tatar and then venison strugging off and wash it down with some fantastic wines from a buddy of mine who owns the best reestling estate in the country. Right now he's a great guy, and he is has died in the woold liberal Democrat as possible. But you know, he's a great friend. And we see I do y on hunting. We may not see the cee I do y on politics. And we still talked. We respect each other's use. I know it's like in this, in this social media age, how is it possible to have friends that disagree with you on any subject? I thought I knew you. I thought I knew you. This is where I distrausted to the British come from. I'm getting to here you now, keep telling your story. I guess, I guess we're good. It's a good illustration of how I think. That's a good illustration how hunting can transcend boundaries in both politics and ideology and food and food and what you get food dudes, A bunch of dudes with food, wine, fresh meat, cigars around a table who are just busting each of the balls, cracking job, Unlchael. Social media finding a reason to disagree in that environment, you find a reason to agree and have a good time and enjoy life exactly. And anybody walked away as from that as just you know, best of friends. M that's how it should be. And we all part of this great nation, and we will despite the fact that we may have different views on certain policy issues, we're still and Americans. Yes, we're taking a break from the podcast to appreciate this great nation. Mm hmmm hmm. Beautiful from sea to shining sea. You know, It's It's an odd thing to me though, too, man. I it seems like every uh, strong dude with you know, positive hit on on their shoulders can look somebody and have an actual conversation. Um and uh we need a lot more of that right now. So that's that's what like what I would preach. The numbers game, the numbers game, and we have better be willing to have a conversation because we're not gonna win this game by breeding. We're not gonna breed ourselves out of it, right, I'm not breeding a bunch of gun owners, you know, so breeder at this point, you're a non breeder. And I'm talking great, and I'm talking and and every day, but there's you get like, hey, man, I've done the research, been listening to you guys for a long time. I think squirrels and rabbits are gonna be the only thing in my area that I can hunt. What should be my first firearm purchase? Not my life? My fifth? There's tenth. What's the very first one? Yeah? That's yeah, just pist a politician off, you'll, But that's so here's where I'm suppressing. Here's where around the midterm elections we came kind of to ahead. And I think it's interesting to get everybody's perspective on this. You have articulated, well where you are right, You're like, you have a very what a lot of people would say is left leaning. Are you peeing and we're having I V I'm I'm gonna pop here bad? What the fuck? We have? Ivy? It's a real quick light beer. That's light beer. That's light beer. How much you have left in the can? Then? Ben? Uh? Not a much? Okay, because I'm I mean, I'm a need to join them in. You need to all right, Well, I can't go on a soapbox with nobody else in the in the room. You wait until Callahan gets back and then and then you go, yeah, yeah, you have to carry your ivy. So right now, according to the we may have to speed the ivy. We've been going for like an hour and thirteen that we're only halfway through. I mean we made bounce our entire afternoon, Canice? Can you can you turn this thing up all my wide open? Fine? No, I'm mad about it. I like say here talking to my friends from a very long time. It's yeah, he's going faster than me. I should have made fun of his vein size Houston next to me and hung like a Chinese fighting man. This water is deep. Anyway, what was I saying that this is so people canna listen to this? Yeah a lot of them do. Really, Yeah, you guys need to this one. This one will be, this will be. I have this predisposition that this is, this has happened recently, you know, and with this this, folks are challenging our belief and you know in guns and such um and people also challenge our belief in hunting and like killing anials. So people are challenging from both sides, which is people are challenging the people are just challenging, challenge and challenging. But I've had this predisposition lately to see like a tough issue, which was what we're talking about, see a tough issue and just sucking run right at it. Sometimes get it wrong, sometimes get it right, but just run right at it and then we can figure it out at some point, hopefully the conversation. Do you get, Yeah, you're getting, you know, solid dudes around drinking off. I think you get by the end of the evening, everything squid. This is how stuff is figured out. All right, go pee, you gotta pee? Or you getting hold it? No, no, no, I'm gonna hold it all right. I'm gonna at you for it, but we'll have to. There's only one battery in here. So anyways, listen, it's a pretty big bottle. Yeah, and then a huge opening for a guy like you can probably get it all the way. Uh, where where are we at? We're about what will you say, Candice? How far down the ivy? How long do we have left? Do you think? In the podcast? Because I don't want to wait into some other like healthy subject, I'm gonna I'm gonna an interview from somebody who's gonna throw the canamon the pigeons, throw the one on the pigeons, the canama on the pigeons. It's it's an English term. He wouldn't understand. Yeah, speak American Ian has and he will think one time. He texted me and I was like, what's up, man? He's like, what are you doing? Like just hanging out? He's like, I thought you might be in your whanking chariot And I was like, the funk is that? Bro? I think it turned out to be in my bed as Yeah, well, let's let's end the alright, alright, I got this now? Are we done with this heavy topic? Are we good? Like everybody said what they need say, I'm good. Another chapter, another chapter in the chapter. So let's spend this. Give us some British terms, some fucking like we got the whanking chair? Yeah. So other terms for you for your cat among the pigeons, yes, which means I'm assuming means like the predator among the prey exactly, feathers flying. Other terms these are old, you know, prettish squaty terms. Yes. Uh so. Other terms for your your sleeping equipment would be uh, your gonk sack, your gonk zack. And the one that I'm most vivid, most enamored of is uh if you're sleeping back is is referred to as the horizontal time accelerator. It's a little wordy for me, but I like it. Cal and I are have a dual gonk sacks over there and we'll be sleeping. I wake up and I look over during the shot show and there's Kyl there. He's gun out in the sack. What else? This is great? I'm sure you've got a lot of this show. Yeah, speaking with your better half who she's doing a little booth time at one o'clock that we need to make it too, because she's way prettier than she is. Um, she's also more interesting. Brother shows up. She's like, I can't understand a single word. They say, well, yeah we could. We sort of lapsed back into Northern dialect, which in the UK you can't travel more than twenty miles before somebody speaks a different accent to you. And so that's how we hate each other. We we use that as a gauge zone. Just see how he says he has a slightly different emphasis on the on the letter A, and therefore you must die. It sounds like a lovely culture. H Yeah, Well we are the the culture that did bring you concentration camps and the bow and football houganism, so Uligans, Hulians football, who is it? Are real? I spent some time in Wales, one time, I'm sorry. I was in Cardiff and we went to a football game and people were just like, he didn't go to rugby match? Ugby rugby? Man? It was a football game for sure, and we didn't football. I don't come now was football? So football is unball and rugby is like like American football but for men do you guys wear pads? And then you call it rugby football? Yeah? And then football? What else you got? What? We just got a ton of confusing stuff. And it's just, you know, we have our own culture and dialect all over the country and which served only to confuse the foot people. Yeah, like from the air cand from the northeast where I'm from, a lot of our dialect to come from the Ore important. You know, the British Empire was you know, worldwide, so not all the people know that pajamas came from India. Really Yeah, and you saying minic of the woods. Then if you say, if you tell somebody I'm gan Yam, then you're going home say that again, I'm gan Yam. Spell it. I'm not too sure I can. When we were in bear Camp, Ian's dish was um curry big big curry sorts panda, yeah, ye, pasanda. And culture is the national and there's the national dish in England. Really that's what I killed me. It's like, well, I'm from the UK, so I'm making my national dish, Like I thought that was he just fried fried fish and fried potatoes and then called it fish and chips. He has that, and then there's you know the rest of it where which basically consists of bald gray mush and you know, people have looked at is this lamb or is this is this? Uh check in you know, going back to the UK, Did you go back there? I go there every year or so, and for the longest time after I moved over here, I was saying, Okay, I know I'm going back to the UK. If anybody wants for my family to visit them, they have to visit me in the US because I'm not giving any of my money to the British government because those guys. And then, you know, I kind of mellowed a little bit. And actually this last year I went hunting in the UK for the first time, at like thirty five minutes from the center of London. And it's possible, it is possible. What did you go hunting for fellow fellow. Yeah, was there like, was there a road deer and things around? Munjack muncha really yeah, Muna is fang deer, fanged deer, possibly the smallest deer I've ever shot with the two seventy, which kind of probably didn't get any meat off the front shoulders. Was blade round start looking very good? Ortunally I did thread the need life shut it right in the center of the chest. So um the bullet probably expanded just inside the rib cage. But tender logs will go on. Whoa. But there after hunting cou'se deer, all of a sudden have so I gotta hunt seek a deer and then Cou's deer within four months of each other. And I'm now very fascinated by small deer, the dominative deer hunter, the dominiative hunter. Ryan Callahan. Yeah, loads for my twenty two long rifle. I was gonna suggest perhaps at one seven seven rifle. Oh yeah, yeah. The whole New World charge it up hunting. So there was six There were six d species in the UK, and I shot three of the four of them so far. But this this, let's see, let's see what we can guess Okay, can we guess the six deer species that are in what tail deer, mule deer, none of the above, None of those. I'm gonna go with road deer being yep, follow deer discussed, monk chack yep being another. I'm gonna also say that red deer gives in there. That's obvious. Now we got two more to get ska is za yep, one more, we said, foulow. We said, am I going to win this? We're gonna get this. It's not roosa deer. That's not that. It's come on, come on, you can do this. Come on, cow. Cow's looking confused. It's gotta have strange teeth. Yeah, it's kind of it can't be just a normal deer. Yeah, that was a great joke. A little spike. I'm thinking that, we said. Road deer said faullo deer. Okay, I'll save you Chinese. I would have never got that. I was thinking rooster deer and other things. You know. So it's one of the few places in the world that you can Chinese want to do, and the Chinese want to do. A population in China isn't doing all that well. So um, yeah, it's it's it's a rest of those genetics. Yeah, I've always wanted to come check things out. How many of those are native? Three? Three? Yeah? And fellow fellow not native? They were imported from Europe in the time of the Norman's valid if if, if I'm correct, for the most populated deer in the world, there's more fallady than any other type of deer. I believe I was told that by a man it would know, so I'm gonna go with it. Uh. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That could be the title of this podcast. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but be Over would probably do very well. Well. We are coming to the end of our ivy You know what that means, kids, kids, you know what that means here at the Hunting Collective, when the ivy bag is empty, it's time to go pee, It's time to go and p Thank you Ian for joining us. Thank you Ben. What's how do you say goodbye in English? Goodbye? Goodbye, cheerio. That's it. That's all. Episode number forty seven is in the books I vys beer all the best discussion with my good friendI and Harrison. I'm a good friend. Ryan Callahan's Privilege to sit down with these boys and record, and I believe it's a great representation of Ian's life and what he feels and thinks, and ours as well. So hopefully enjoyed it. I'm sure you will let us know your opinions on what was discussed, and we'll have fun time with that conversation. In the meantime, As always, please go to the mediator dot com, sign up for the newsletter, go to the store, go to the events page, do all those things. You're gonna find us all over the country. In the next couple of weeks. We head out very soon to Reno and Sacramento, So there's the places you'd be looking at and buying tickets for that. If you want to see Callahan, myself, Johannes Pitelis, Steve Vanilla, and other guests on the live podcast tour, we very much look forward to seeing you there, or seeing you anywhere for that matter. So that's it. That's all I got, short, sweet and beautiful. Again, thank you for listening, Thank you for wading into these deep waters and these important issues with us. Hopefully you find the conversation to be challenging, you find the conversation to be something that makes you think it makes you better, because, as Ian said and as Cal said during this podcast, the conversation is what we care about, so we'll keep having it. Next time on The Hunting Collective see yu