00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcasting in you shirtless, severely vote bitten and in my case underwear listening past. You can't predict anything. Um, I got a bone to pick first off, because, uh, do you guys remember when we were talking about the guy that, um, the guy that had the blue fin tuna? Yeah? Right, and he uh refreshed my memory this that caught it legally into the woods doing something. I'm doing some horrible hosting. So we got a couple of corrections about the blue fin tuna that are interrupted. One clarification of one correction where you guys misled me and miss and really misled listeners by not knowing uh not knowing something. The story is how the the the catch season on bluefin tuna had been closed on the East Coast and a guy caught a five hundred, four hundred there's different weights going around a four hundred pound bluefin tuna. He thought, maybe I can hide this giant fish and no one will know I actually voted it because he could legally release it, right like you could target it for clients, but you just can't keep him. But he decided to keep thinking is of real valuable. He thinks he's gonna go and take it and sell it in a backdoor restaurant exchange, which I guess happens quite a bit. Um he doesn't do it. One of the restaurant's reports him for trying to sell this tuna. He panics, ties it to his truck and drags it out into the woods and then gets all these crazy fines and then talking about this, we're talking about what is the value of a bluefin tuna? And you boys, I can't remember which he was most guilty. You two are involved in it, and Miles Nolty, who's not here right now, was involved in it. And we're talking about how some tuna are worth millions of dollars. Correct, we looked it up on the internet. Yeah, but yeah, the internet. Okay, no, oh, but a guy is gonna now correct us. Okay, you check this out. Then check this out where he's saying. He says, in reference to the story of the poached and discarded bluefin tuna, you misstated the value of blue fin tuna and the Japanese fish auctions as one or three million dollars. And you even mentioned it was the first of the year, right, Okay, there's a there's a sort of ceremonial thing with the first tuna. They take a nice tuna and sell the first tuna of the year at auction, and it's like a dick swinging contest where whoever is kind of sitting on the fattest wall and it has the best business going will do a symbolic purchase of the first tuna as a sort of media driver. But the same fish, if it was the second tuna, would be eighty grand. It's the thing you do to be like. It's it's like the opening of the sale. It's like the Texas State Fair with the grand champion steer, and all the oil companies tell me more. I don't know this, but I like, I like, you have all your rural your rural areas they have, you know, your four eight or your state fairs, and so all these kids usually show these animals and then when you get to the end, they have the grand champion. You know, this is the premium steer. Well, you go to a state like Texas well, obviously there's a lot of oil money, and it happened a lot over like North Dakota. Some of those guys are paying you know, thousands of dollars, which those kids is a ton of money. But I think it's the same thing these steers go for, you know, one to three thousand dollars for a beef, because it's the same thing. It's like it's the grand champion. You know, you gotta have it. So yeah, that does not so you gotta get Yeah, I feel like getting that, man. I feel I feel like we're like in special contact. They will be sold for a great deal of money. But no, here's the problem. Here's what you guys did. It was bad. You were saying that the tuna is a tuna can be worth that amount of money. So the guy didn't pay a million dollars for it. But yes, but it wasn't the value of the tuna. It was like a it's a symbolic, ceremonial thing, has nothing to do with the value of the tuna. Yeah. No, you're completely right, and thank you wrong for misrepresenting the like the average value of a tuna. If one a year gets sold that way in the Dick swing contest, then it's not the value of the tuna. Yeah, if you're charging I guess the whole saler that these dudes on the outer banks there that are selling the tuna to They're not going to get that that money. He's got nothing to do with market. That's the interesting thing is doing some trickle down economics to make sure the dude that caught the fish winds up getting five grand or something. Yeah, let let's do introductions real quick. I wonder what a backdoor deal at a restaurant don't get you though? This guy that wrote this guy, Yeah, exactly, it'll gets you a ten dollar fine. This guy that wrote in, one of the guys that wrote in about this was very close to this and knew the players involved and kind of explained a little bit of backstory this tune. And it seems as though there was some other boats around, and somehow this guy thought it's possible to to do this without to deal with the fish of this size, without attracting attention, And it seems like he blundered in a number of areas and people were aware of, like, hey, that guy just drove by with a pound tuna hanging off the end of his boat. Um, sethics Uh introduce yourself, Uh, Seth Burgley. I don't know how much you might want to say, but no, there's no what you're named Burgh's no Burgley Burg No s Yeah, a lot of people call me Burgs, but a lot of nicknames now wes Um grew up northeastern Montana, farmed ranched up there, so that's kind of my background of agger culture. Stared hunting when I was about three years old, be begun and sparrows weren't safe, and been doing it ever since. Um what's northeast Montana, north of Brockton, so kind of between plenty Wood and Wolf Point, kind of up in no man's land. Dated a gale from plenty Wood one time. Go ahead, wasn't your sister? You've got a sister, Well I do, but she wasn't in plenty of Wood anyway. Uh yeah. So we moved down to Billings when I was in high school. My dad had some health issues and uh culture to healthcare stuff. And started college there and then got a scholarship to go to Ohio State now on a shooting scholarship, so shot competitively there and then the Army picked me up after that to go shoot for them and spent a few years doing that and moved back to Montana. I got involved in politics a little bit on the state level, and state representative, state representative representing the people of representing the good people of Carbon County. So it's the area that basically from just south of Laurel all the way to Red Lodge, you know, Luther Roscoe area, and then south of the border. How many constituents do you have? About ten thou So it's funny. I was, I was just in d C. And I was talking to a state representati from Virginia and talking about you know, campaigns and constituents and that sort of thing, and so I asked, I was like, what's a what's a campaign like for a state representative in Virginia. He's like, oh, you know, like three or four hundred thousand dollars And it's like, well, an expensive one here is about forty So it's a little bit different. That's still a four bucks. That's still four bucks for every content that's an expensive one. Yeah, the average is probably about six ten, maybe six or ten. It was about a buck for in an election You're you're looking at like five d to thousand votes is swinging the Yeah, a thousand votes is a big, big difference. I think we have a high voter turnout in Yeah, it was like sixty seven percent or something like that, and yeah, it's about I want to say what we have. Uh yeah, well, getting registered vote is there was probably a hired turnout than that. There's about sixty votes I think so, yeah, but it can be swung. A lot of the districts are handful of votes, votes, forty votes some of them. Usually there's one or two in the state that come down to five or eight votes and they do a recount and oh he won by three. So and you're saying that most like most state legislators are they have another gig, like, oh, yeah, you can't make a living at this. I mean they say we make eleven thirty three an hour or whatever the state wage. But that's eight hour days. So you know, when we're in session, I don't know. I mean, I guess there's some days we get out earlier. You have a half day that you work, but generally, if you're involved, you've been around, you're there at six six thirty every morning and you often won't leave tilt eight nine o'clock. So if you work six to six, that's kind of an average day, so you're not really making that much money. Everybody has a job. I was just gonna say, how many terms have you done? This is my third term, so yep. And then you're only getting paid when you're in session. That's kind of a people think you're on like a salary d it's you get paid every day that you're working and then we get a per diem. But you're moving up there and paying rent and buying food and stuff. So it's not really a money making gig. Do it for the for your ideological reasons or to try and help people out, so as a launchpad, right, some people might I don't see that as my projection. I guess, like life, it's good when you're really There's when you look at the makeup of the legislature. You get a lot of retired people because they have time to do it. You get some younger people that kind of are have time on their hands, or you know, independent business owners, guys that can do their own thing take some time off. And you get lawyers because they can just shut the practice down like all right, I'm not taking any I'm not doing any work for four months and then they'll come back. But it's kind of tough for you know, if you're in the egg world, you know, there's a lot of guys from you know, out in the Sticks that are ranchers, are farmers, and farmers have a little easier because they usually can't get in the field, especially this year. They won't be until after we're out. But a lot of guys are starting to ca right now, so their wives are at home, you know, having things out. The neighbors are helping them out. So it's a tough gig if you're kind of a working man, how much of your job is balancing out all of Carbon County versus Red Lodge. Like you got a lot of people bitching about, like out of staters in Red Lodge and second homes and yeah, it's it's more of the ideologies. I think it's not. There's some really good people on both sides. I mean, you get people that have lived here for five generations can be you know, just as one side or the other. Yeah, people in Red Lodge can be if it's like, oh there, they got to be from California and be super liberal, and it's like, why, I know, guys from California, they're like more conservative than anybody else in the county. So it's it's not so much like where you're from or where you live. It's more about just kind of how you think about things, and people tend to group together. So it is, you know, the county is a lot more agricultural, rural people have been around for a while, a lot more farm you know, kind of production and of based, and Red Lodge is a lot more of retirement. And then you've got the ski hill, so you kind of get that aspect to, you know, get more more people that just kind of in and out, it feels like, to ski and hang out, so you kind of get some of that too. So it's definitely it's definitely. It totally is you know. That's like I tell people, it's like, this is exactly like if you took Montana and squished into one county. It's like that's Carbon County because you've got kind of like this, you know, everybody jokes like it's the hippie town. You know, all the people that live out there, and it's like, you know, you know, the mountain town a little more palatable for some people. I don't know, and but it's like it's kind of like Missoula. You know, you've got that kind of that type of group, that dynamic and then you've got the two river valleys in Carbon County. We have the Clark's Fork and Rock Creek, which is kind of like the Missouri, and you know, the Yellowstone, and then Southeastern County is all just sage brush nothing. It's like if you go to broad Us, it's like people live out here. It's just nothing. And then there's oil. There's oil and southeastern part of the county. And then we have a lot of cold to you know, Carbon County they named it that because of the coal mine there in Bear Creek, so you have some of that industry, and so it is. It really is kind of like a little microcosma Montana. And then you got the mountains, you know, the Western slopes and yeah, everything, a lot of turkeys you have to drive to. You guys, got many fox squirrels. Any fox squirrels in the district. Fox squirrel they're definitely there. I know, no, I'm I'm looking at my retirement home out there, and not for the skin for the squirrels, damn it. Okay, and then uh so, so Seth is with us, and then uh be honest of course, Ben O'Brien, OKAYL four or six, Sam Lon Uh, dude, rolled in real quick, Dude, rolled in. We're talking. We're talking about chasing a little bit chapass, chafing. Ro In He chafed when he swims. That doesn't doesn't seem in salt water freshwater, saltwater, he says, a lot worse chafes when he swims. Yeah, I can see that I can't chase in salt water. Freshwater. Yeah, I mean you got you got sand mixing around, and you know, just kind of that abrasiveness of saltwater. I feel like, you know, I've been ashing around snorkeling and cheese stuff and chafing, not about the presence of moisture. Yeah, I don't know, man, But how do we define like what causes chafe his skin? It depends because you're saying it's a big man's problem because there's a lot of contact. Yes, like my legs don't brush. No, you know. So that's why most people think of like when chafing, you think of chapass, because everyone's like most people are going to have some skin on skin contact and their gluteal crease. But uh, I was reading the thing the up Michigan's Upper Peninsula where I live very briefly. Uh, they're just getting walloped. There's a dear biologist in the up saying, if things continue this, this winner keeps humming along like it is. He's predicting they will lose forty percent of their white tailed deer this winter. That's wild. I had our local biolog just told me the highline lost forty percent in some areas last year. Man, you think hunters killed here? Uh? Talked about the tuna, big correction. I was talking about the great poet Robert Service, and I mentioned like American poetry, and boy, that got some Canadians riled up, he said, A guy Rhode. He says, as a Canadian in a British Columbian, I worry about our culture being overshadowed by America and our attempts to maintain a distinct identity from our southern neighbors. And he even spelt it that cute Canadian way. You just put that you in there for emphasis. He was like real worked up about misidentifying Bob Service, but that he was born in England, so let's oh, so they can't even claim to school in Scotland. He moved to Scotland he was five. It was born in England. So sorry, sorry, bro, how don't need to hear from any Scotsman. Spend so much time in the Yukon too, and you know, if you're in the Yukon, you definitely differentiate yourself from those folks down in British Columbia. So I guess I think him as an American poet because I feel like that's where his audiences. Yeah, and it's English. He's a British Canadian American poet. And then he and we just kind of appropriate anything. Yeah, you just pick, like if it's something in Cannon and you like it, you just act like it's American and then it is. I think he's spent like forty years, like the last forty years of his life in Europe, in London, Paris. Bob Service, propert service. Yeah, I call Robert Frost Bob Frost, and I call Robert Service Bob Services. I think it makes more. You know, you know the poems of Bob Frost, right, like that that thing about building fences. Oh yeah, yeah, he was the he was an American poet. Laureatette Bob Frost. He's got that poem where the two dudes are like they spend all their time building a fence between their properties, like good fences make good neighbors and like an old stone Savage and that you realize all they care about is like very carefully delineating the line between their properties, and that's like what they dedicate their lives too. I will admit that I definitely, I definitely disserviced Robert Service, uh because my impression of him. Uh. So I bought a book of collected works from the air little airport shack in King sam And Alaska. They sell Robert Service books. Yeah, because they want They're like, oh, I think they wanted everybody that likes to like lay claim just like you're saying that you're down on you're saying you don't like his poetry because it all rhymes. No, no, no, this was I just bought his book while I was waiting on our plan out to the peninsula to go hunt brown bears. And it was just like winter would not leave and spent a ton of the trip, you know, shoulder to shoulder with three other dudes in a tent. That sounds like a Bob Service poem. Oh yeah, And so I was super into Robert Service and just but I had like reading that book front back twelve different times on that trip, I'd kind of come to the conclusion that there's no way this guy got stationed in the Yukon because he was a cracker jack banker, you know. I figured that he was put out there because he kind of had like some drug or alcohol problems. And then you know, all of his poems talking about like the working class. Um, it just kind of got ingrained in my brain that this guy probably did what a lot of poets and writers do is die bad death somewhere destitute, drunk under some bridge exactly. But that's not the case at all. Turned out be quite quite a straight arrow. Yeah, And I didn't didn't learn that until just recently. So it made some money off. He was the most wealthy writer in Paris at one time, especially died drunk under a bridge. A less interesting this way, right if you would. Nowadays are too lazy to rhyme all their poems, and that guy had that work ethic that needs to go into like rhyming that stuff out to the bitter end, just get not only like he had a pretty sizable fortune going and then um he couldn't when World War one broke out he couldn't join up because of his physical condition, so he joined the Red Cross and uh yeah, litter bearer and one a bunch of medals. He sounds like too good a dude to be a poet, Like the poet should be under a bridge drum screaming at people. Yeah, juice, were did you just use the word litter bear? Yeah? Have we talked about um to the movie Tombstone? Oh not for a long time, but I know where you're going with that. The yeah, huckle bear so real quick, and I gotta get onto some of the stuff we're talking about that we're talking about shooting with South. So it's okay. I don't know if it's true. I haven't looked into this, but I've heard this. Everyone knows that that it's in Tombstone, right. The dude Aceman from Top Gun and he plays uh Bell kim Kilmer. Bel Kimbers. Also, I'll point out very good in heat Michael Man movie. So Bell Kimber says to a feller, I think he's fixing to shoot him maybe, or someone's fixing to shoot someone. Kilmer says, I'll be your He's like, do it shoot me or whatever. Pull your gun. I'll be your huckleberry. Okay, you know what the hell is that mean? No one knows what that means. Someone was telling me, and listeners will write it and hopefully clarify this point. Someone's telling me that he messes that he messed the line up, or someone the writer's messed it up, or something I messed up. The expression is he's like, go ahead, you know, pull your gun. I will be your huckle bearer, which would be a term for he's saying, try it. I'll be your pall bearer. Yes, not, I'll be your huckleberry. Have you watched it like ten times in a row to make sure that he actually does say it, like five five times, I'm your huckleberry, Johnny Ringo. Someone just I shouldn't have brought it up. Bring up. You should never bring up stuff you don't know what you're talking about. He was too hot strung, real quick, real quick, um quick question for you. Guy writes in he's got I can't really understand it. He's got a bow that it maxes out at sixty pounds, and he's like, man, I want to go elk Hunton. Can I am I your responsible to lhunt with my sixty pound bow. I guessing compound? Yeah, absolutely not, absolutely not not not dude, my long total. Yeah, yeah, just understand what your weapon can do. That's all all matter. Get close, don't be bombing him at sixty yards. Sixty pound compounds like an eighty pound long bow. I mean, how many guys hunt with eighty pound longbows? Has a heavy air? Was heavy air? You should be shooting heavy air with the sixty pound bow, six blade broad head and a heavy arrow. Go to town. I'm not a humongous man. Um, I'm not a longest man, but I pulled quite a bit more than that. That's what I was just curious. But I don't know what his circumstances. How what are you pulling? I shoot seventy yeah, uh okay. Guy rode in from the military and he says, you guys are talking about whether you used when you're trying to explain to someone where something is. So you're you're looking out on the landscape and you're like, are you see a deer? And you're trying to explain where the deer is? And we were talking about whether you should that's described as talking someone into something or talking someone onto something. He says military feller. He says, it seems like the hegemony. His words settled down the former. Now he's a US Air Force Joint Terminal Attack Controller. J our job is to call in air to ground fire in support of ground forces. They damn sure talk people on to something. They do not talk someone into something. Um, he has more call in fire though. You don't call on fire. So you're calling him onto it. But you call in fire. So that's a good point, he says. Assuming every one of us has more or less the same knowledge base, what really sets a good j tech from a great one is our ability to get aircraft overhead and talk there sold to straws. You know, are you following all this? Talk their soda straw sensor onto a target expeditiously and facilitate fire. The term we use is talk on, because you are verbally moving the pilot's eyes from the known to the unknown. We work big too small. Also, whichever direction you are facing is twelve o'clock as opposed to changing it. Every time you talk on to a known spot, that part I don't understand. So you find your fixed point. It's like on a hillside, you all right, the big tree everybody got the big tree. Alright, the deer's you know, twelve o'clock, So you are the known point because he knows where you are, so that that's what I was wandering. He knows where the person is. So then you're designating off of all right, my twelve o'clock, because otherwise it's changing no matter where he is, and he always knows where the guy's facing. Now here's the hottest laser designator. Here's the hottest j tech tip they're not going to adopt from now on. We're talking about using as a unit of measures. So let's say you have a thing. Let's say that happens to be a deer by a school bus, and everybody can agree like that's a school bus comment scenario. Yeah, you'd be like, um, trying to explain distance. What they do is you pick something out on the landscape and make that a unit a distance unit. So let's say you can agree on a alone cedar tree on a ridge top and the deers somewhere off to the right. You take the width of that known cedar tree and that becomes your unit of measurement. That'd be a shitty one because it'd be very small so also you'll be talking about well fifty okay, but let's say you're talking sure, but whatever he's just saying, like, pick a known thing and make unit distance units often known thing. So if let's say it's a let's say the deer is pretty close, someone can't see you, Like, okay, that's our unit of measurement. Yes, three, go three of those over. Rather being like a little bit a teeny ways, D're always trying to do just like at what point your yards are mine? We're always like like twenty yards. But I don't know how the hell many you could go with there and wind up it's ten yards of sixty yards. Make a unit of measurement and march their eyes on that unit of measurement. I've done it with clouds before. Is that stupid? Yeah? You see that big moving cloud just turned into a mustache or go to the right, go to the right of the mustache. Um on the subject, name and guns. A little bit of feedback from people, the guys saying that you can't name you. One guy says that he has a rifle and he gave it a name, and he feels okay with it because he has a six five by sixty eight or six five by sixty eight, which then he knows a gun. I've six five by sixty eight, That's what he says. And he even says that he times since it's six five x sixty eight, he times it out, it comes out to four forty two, so he calls it the four forty two. Another guy was saying, you can't the same way you can't give yourself a nickname. If you're gonna nickname a gun, it can only be given by other people who name the gun. The same way you can't give yourself a nickname somewhat legitimate. Yeah, his buddy has a gun. He keeps too much oil on it, and one time he dropped a duck hunting and an oil that came off it, and so they call his shotgun the Valdies. I guess that guy. That's that guy. He's got a dog and who named the dog. This is the last, the last note I'm ever gonna give about cheese kurds or top so like cheese curds. When you buy on they squeak. If you've been to Wisconsin, you know about this. It's the only thing I like about Wisconsin, except for Doug during that's a joke. But cheese curds, like when you buy them, they get squeaky. Then you leave them laying around and they lose your squeak and doug during it feels as though it's like a sin against God and man, he's like, why would you ever let your courage sit around so long that they lose your their squeaking, Like if you let him sit that long, you don't deserve to have squeaky kurds. And these boys in Elroy, Wisconsin were telling us that you leave him on the dashboard your truck and the sun, they'll re squeak. Someone was telling us that if you microwave them, they'll get squeaky again. This guy is saying, the absolute best way to revive your neglected cheese kurds is to place them into a colander and run a hot water over them for about a minute. They will be not just as good, he says, and he makes a parenthetical if not better, then right when they came out of the vat. Okay, I'll be trying that because Wisconsin Turkey seasons coming up. Um can I can? I go ahead? It's not gonna start asking seth questions. I got one that might be a good way to lead into can you can you pivot off it? Yeah, it might be able to. I got to and I'll see if we can do this first one quickly. The dude wrote in this is interesting because it's kind of it's kind of about shooting, but he's got a predicament that he's found himself in twice. I want you guys all weigh in and see if what you guys are doing this situation. He went back country'll hunting in Colorados, buddy, And on the third year they went back three times. They finally got into a bowl on the last day, Um it was and they trade days on who gets to be the shooter and who's calling right, So it his day to shoot. Bull comes in, He's gonna have a perfect shot. Back up, What about the three years they've been Yeah, they've been hunting three years. I haven't got a shot yet, I haven't killed nothing. Now on the third year, last day, it's his it's his day to shoot, and Bull steps out and right as he's getting ready to shoot, he hears another bow go off. He sees the arrows smoked this bull, and he ends up still punching his trigger. Because it's just like he's like, whoa, what the and and and shoots an arrow to his arrow hits in the paunch. Bull goes like thirty yards, tips over and dies, ends up being a nice six um. And he's like, dude, thought it was my day to shoot, right, And he's like, oh really I thought it was mine, Like sorry, and so hold on a second, hold on a second. This fight, the two guys are hunting together. Yea, they're calling a bowl and he's saying that both of them simul like virtue like almost simultaneously launch arrows, both hit the one that seems to me can you look at and be like, are you oh you're drawn your bows drawn? Are they with each other or are they in different spots? Because if they could see each other, it's not like a subtle thing you're doing there. Typically set up is like twenty to fifty yards spread out, one guy in front, one guy typically, but I mean I've also called in bulls standing right next to the dude and been whispering in his ears when to draw a bow. So yeah, I don't know, thick timber. He could have been ten yards away and definitely been could have drawn and been doing jumping Jackson. The other guy wouldn't have to see what was so anyways, Uh, they split the meat like it always happens, and uh they can decide on who should get the antlers. The dude who was supposed to be shooting, Yeah, he got a bad hit. He got a bad hip. I have not killed. He blamed his bad hit on the fact that the other guys shot. That's what I was thinking right now. They're going when they're they alternate years, they swap it out each other's houses. It seems like two nice guys, right, Yeah, I know a lot of guys that would not be so nice. I saw it down in the middle, and does he each have an antlic That's what I'm saying. I didn't you know what, you know what he might not be realizing you can do when you saw something in half. He probably don't realize how you're supposed to put that to your wall would be pretty bitch in his half. Learn don't put it aiming out, you cut it down the school. Did they mounit or just have the school? I didn't say they mounited. I don't know what they're supposed to do. No one wants to saw it wants, and that's just the old school. If it's the old school, where he's looking where the mount is a shoulder mountain looking dead nuts forward, so you can put it right on the wall, so then you can split it, turned it sideways and plastered against the wall. That actually, if it's the school, you cut it and don't have him looking out. You have him plastered against the wall, which looks very cool. Yeah, and then you're like kind of artistic, maybe an innovator. Your wife's gonna like it to get a house with the same floor plan too. That'd be help that'd be helpful. We were going to do that. One time. We were gonna band saw a buck down the middle because it kind of kind of stepped out in a narrow opening, and a buddy and I were ten yards apart and just both pulled up and fired both hit it. And what happened? Who got to keep it? Uh? We we split the meat, brought it back um, and we talked about it, all sorts of stuff we were going to do. And the school was lying around for a while, and I did the European mount and it was sitting in my house and who tagged it? Kept senting I tagged it. I feel like whoever tags it, but we were going to cut that he never he never asked for it, never asked for it back and kind of think got out of hunting and he kind of blocked his number. But like, I st't know, but whoever tagged it took a hit, right, You don't know that they're taking that they're filling the tag for the team. You took the question to a game warden. To game warden, would wanted to go to who tagged it? And if you did a curvy shoulder a mount with the deer's looking at curvy and then you split it dead nuts down the spine and split the thing, then you have a curvy wall, which is tricky. Yeah, you have to in a castle. Yeah, or they have the planetarium or or they have the parapet um seth. You were telling me, so you kind of walked us through the thing of how you became a competitive shooter. Um, how First I want to ask you another question. I want to get into how this all happens, how a fellow gets into this. But you were telling me that that you used to shoot pistols competitively, right, So that's why I did o how to stay with pistol. And you're saying that some guys set the trigger so light that if you pointed towards the sky and shake it, it goes off. Yeah, so that's an event that they actually just removed from the Olympics. But it's called shooting this not for that reason. For that reason, it's called where you just run around. So they're some of those guys are running like fifty to seventy Graham triggers on those things. It's called it's called free pistol, and so it sounds super dangerous, but the reality is is that you've got it right. You've got your pistol pointed downrange and you it's most of them are some sort of falling block, you know, So you're one explain folks. So it's, uh, it's kind of like the Ruger number ones if you've ever seen those. You've got a little switch on the bottom where you just flicking open, it drops a block down, You put the bullet in, your close it back up, the block comes up and locks it in. So it's kind of a like a block mechanism behind the chamber, and that's how most of them works. I'm sort of falling block for the single shot, so it's twenty two. You put your round in, lock it, and then you're aiming down your lane and there's usually you know, they have wind breaks or something. So you've got six or eight shooters and you know, maybe four that are wide, and then you've got your targets outdoor you shoot it's fifty meters away. Yeah, so you kind of damn hard with the pistol. Yeah, and it's about a to just under two inch bowls eye at fifty so it's I mean it's smaller in a coffee cup. Lad, So they're two small. So if you come up and you were to accidentally, you know, touch this thing off, that's a zero and it's ten ten nine eight out is how it scored. So you dropped ten points on one shot and you gotta count, I mean you count it, so that's ten points down. No, it's well, it's international international pistol style, so it's Olympic they shoot it all over the world Cups. And did you ever shoot that competition? Which one free? The more talk about yep, yep free was one of my events in college that I shot. So raising a pistol and shooting something that's two inches in diameter at fifty yards, So we shot a lot of indoor. Your fifty foot indoor targets about the size of a dime for your ten ring, how many shots in a roll can you put in there? The best I've ever done is like eleven I think out of sixty in a row um for a full match in the twenties somewhere. The key with three pistol is not screwing up and shooting seventh and eight. So if you shoot a bunch of tens, if you can hold the nine ring, that's like the world's best shooters are pretty much holding nine ring with a lot of tens, and your nine rings at fifty about I don't know, four inches probably, So it's about keeping a group. And now they've changed some of that. They went away from if you touch the ring it scores higher to now they do a lot of it on a decimal. So if you shoot a center center, it's ten point nine, and if you shoot just touch on the edge of it, it's a ten point zero, and if you go just outside it's a nine point nine. So rather than going you know guys that can shoot super deep shots and then throwing eight, you're going to score better than now because it's all just decimals, so it's like how close can you keep them to the middle, So it's a little bit more fair, I guess that way. Why did the Olympics get rid of this kind of thing, Well, a lot of it is. It's not Some of them aren't super fun to watch. I mean, this is like a marathon of shooting. So you're shooting at fifty it's sixty shots in two hours, so it's super long. And a lot of it has to do with they've kind of are going away from sports that aren't men and women together shoot. So you go to some of the rifle events, there's a lot more crossover. You're wearing jackets and you're shooting in a more controlled environment and like some of the ladies, I'll shoot the guys, whereas free pistol is a more of a there's a lot more physical involved. You don't get any real supports, you're not wearing you know, jackets or pants or anything to make your position better. Canvas yea canvas, like a super thick canvas, so you get locked in there and you literally or can't even move, so it's super stable so they're kind of going away from sports that can't be UM both genders, I guess, and it's not super exciting to watch, I guess. So so what are the other shooting sports that are in the Olympics? UM live shotgun. That's a big one in the shotgun because you know, you go to the Middle Eastern some of those countries and shotguns a huge, huge deal. It's a big money sport in a lot of places. They do air pistol still, so air pistol, air rifle, and then small bowl rifle, and then they still do rapid fire pistol, which is a twenty two event where you've got five big bulls eyes, which is what I shot when I went to the Army. They're just big black bulls eyes at twenty five and your tend rings pretty big, it's like three or three and a half inches, and that's a more dynamics. So you start with your gun at a forty five down and they've got lights or turning targets. Most of the upper class ones are lights and when the light goes off, you gotta come up and one, two, five shoot your shots and they do it eight seconds for your you do two series of eight second, two, series of six second, two, series of four seconds. I've watched that before and it's not boring at least, it's pretty cool. And they've changed it for the finals to where rather than being scoring, if you're a nine point five, you get a hit. Nine point five are better you get a hit. If you're nine point four or lowers, it's a miss. So when you come up, you just one to three and then they just, oh, this guy got four hits. So people can just look at that. It's really easy to oh, he shot a nine point nine. It's like, I don't know what that means. What's a nine point nine or ten point two. I really enjoy watching the biathlon. Yeah, that's that's got to be my favorite at Olympics. That's kind of the only one that I think people know is in the Olympics, right, the other ones that's like the rest of them in summer. Yeah, yeah, not when they're doing Olympic Games. Summer biathlon the own the winter shooting sport, UM, I believe, so I don't think they have any strict shooting sports. I think it's just the ski and ski and shoot. What countries are the best shooters? Um? America is decent. It depends like shotgun, Like we're Vinca Hancock is. He's won gold medals that just about every Olympics that he's went to. So we've got some really really solid shock. The most metal Olympians are shooters, right, A lot of them well besides you know, swimmers, but um yeah, the so they've got shotguns. Good for US. I'd say the big ones are UM, China is usually pretty good, South Korea, some of those the Asian countries put a lot of effort into it. Russia has a really long standing tradition of shooting um super well, and that kind of depends rapid fire. There's some Germans that shoot really really well on rapid fire free pistol. It's kind of a mix. There's like you know, kind of the bigger countries. A lot of the European countries are really big indusries. So the people that just generally kick ass at the Olympics. The US Russia like shooting pretty much, not like weird outliers, um not really shotguns kind of one because you get like you know, azerber John has a shotgun shooter that comes out and it's like doing really well. You know some random is there a wing shooting culture in the Arab world? Um, Like, I know there's big into falconry. I don't know, you know, I haven't really paid that much attention to it, but I know, um, when I was on the army team, they had a shotgun team and those guys would go over and shoot, and I guess some of the places they go are just super posh, you know, marble trap houses and all sorts of craziness. Yeah, and talking about hunting, you know, I don't know if this is like the sporting side, but one of the things that they that's big in the shotgun kind of almost like the underground, is they do pigeon shoots. And so what they do is they have a box with a spring in it, and then they have a ring at like, you know, say forty fifty yards across. I think it's smaller than that actually, and it's got like a four inch fence and so they've got this ring around it. So you sit back at certain distances and they basically pushed the button and it springs this pigeon out there can why, and then you got to shoot the pigeon. If it falls inside the ring, you get the point and if it falls outside of the ring, then you don't. That's not an Olympic game though, no, no, no, this is just I don't see that, you know, popular in America. I will have admit to having done that before, and it's big money. But they still do tower shoots. AlOH yeah, some kid climbs up in the tower and starts throws, starts throwing peasants over the ring. I did it in the Dominican Republic and there was five boxes, right you say, pull and Stig street pigeon comes flying out of the one of the five boxes and launches them. It launches them out, It springs them out because they they're captives, so they you know, pin their wings and they put them in the box, unpin them and they springs them out and you shoot them if they fall. But before they get over the fence, you get a point. What's the diameter of the of the fence? Well, heat, No, it's not I've only ever done that one time and I decided that I probably won't do that again. You know, you know how people never done it. But it's big money. I mean, people in the towers money on different shooters and you can buy shooters and I'll cut us find it's I mean, people are flying in on lear jets to shoot these things, do you Honestand we talk about turkey shoots like when I was a kid, I grew up by a gun club, a private gun twenty gun club. Um, and if I'm not mistaken, man, actually I need to I need to call some folks back home and ask me if I'm not mistaken. They when I was a little little kid, they would dig a ditch and put turkeys in the ditch with just their head sticking out right. Yes, okay, And if you hit the turkey, you got to keep it and bring it home and cook it for Thanksgiving. And it was a long ways out. It was like remember it was like I feel like it was like you had to use the twenty two and the turkeys were way the hell out and you could just see their heads behind a berm And if you could hit the turkey, that's your turkey. Do you feel like that's the origination of the term turkey. I don't think I'm I don't think I'm making this up. Put him in a box. Yeah, the old school like these by the time when I was a kid, shooting was you shot a target and then you got a frozen turkey if you want, I think that was a PC version. It's like competition. Yeah. Yeah. I did some work for my buddy Randy Bam at a turkey slaughter facility. And if I was if you put me in a turkey, if you made me a turkey and I had and you said, okay, you're thanksgivings quickly approaching. Um. You can go to Bill Maher, the turkey slaughter facility that we did some working and you'll die there. Or you can go to twin a gun club and die there. I would go to twin a gun club to die. Can we can we clarify that Bill Maher not like the comedian guy. He doesn't know. Oh no, it's like b I L hyphen M A R. I think, look at these guys that up, these guys slaughter. I think when they're gearing up, I feel like they're slaughtering twenty thousand turkeys in a day or something like the or some insane number. And it's like a dude, it's a turkey. Turkeys runner un Turkeys would get out of the trucks and get away and once they hit the ground because they're all in a controlled environment. So we had all we had all the materials, like Ronnie eas Millwright, and we we'd have our materials in the parking lot and you'd come in the morning and you'd find turkeys hiding out in the parking lot in our material like because they'd get out of the truck and once they got the truck, they couldn't massle them. And so the turkeys go try to find a place to hide, and guys that work with catch those turkeys, bring them home. And remember this guy Rick, he made a little cage at home. It would take the turkeys he caught out the parking lot and put him in the cage and fatten them up in the cage and make smoke turkeys out of him. Good old day. If it's if it's more PC. If it's more then it's it's not even political cracktics whatever. If it's if it's regarded as more ethical to have a guy hit a target and give him a frozen turkey, I I just challenge that. I'm not I have no opinion on the matter, but I just my coming up. It had changed right, it was a turkey shoot, like I were on the turkey shoot and all the ones I did were muzzle order based, so it was all black powder open sites. And I want to remember when into my first frozen turkey was quite the accomplishment. I think I took a picture with it, like Griffin Grinn do you know? Daring? Um, I'm gonna pivot back into uh Wayne shooting whatnot? Daring? The Clinton administration, they very early on when they first identified Ben Ladden as a threat. They he was out hunting birds in the desert at a falconry camp and they debated hitting him there. This is like way back like ninety two or something like that. They debated hitting him there, but there was some other high profile sawdies who were also hunting out of that same camp, and they decided against it. So they almost got him hunting A good way to go that that that was my pivot because watch, I'll wrap it up. So since they you know there's that bird hunting culture through falconry, there's also a shotgunning culture there. And you were a competitive shotgun shooter. I never really shot competitively. Well, I thought that, So what did you do in high school? Shot um pistol? Pistol, That's what it was. And then for some reason I thought you you went and you were doing like the competitive wing shooting, not wingshooting, but ski I shot it a little bit, played with it. I had my roommate shot competitively, but yeah, I was always pistol all the way through. How did you how did you first, like start, how did you get into that? So I kind of started through a local club when I was in high school and buildings we had on the competitive side and we shot small bow rifle, twenty rifle and then uh air rifle, and so I shot that for a couple of years and then and I was okay. But there's a it's a lot of uh kind of building up a system of shooting. I mean, you're trying to get your position now in lockdown. That's most of what rifle shooting is is the position. So you're trying to get super stable so that you're right literally doesn't move, and it takes a while to kind of develop that. So right, so you're shooting three position, you're shooting offhand, kneeling and prone and prone. Obviously it's pretty easy. Everything's with a sling and peep sites, so that that's pretty easy, and getting into your kneeling and off hand positions takes a little bit more time. So I was decent, but not really great. And then I started shooting pistol as kind of an add on to that, and it was a lot better at pistol, and I enjoyed it more. There's you know, to put them all the jackets and drag your suitcase around with all your gear. So I'm I'm a little bit less structured in that regard, so I had more fun with it. How good can a person get with its funny to you rifle? Um? Pretty good? Like what kind of hundred yard group can you shoot with the twenty two oh under an inch? Like with a sling and a shooting just off a sling, prone shooting offhand stuff, Um, they don't really shoot hunter. All their matches are fifty yards. So but most guys that are good can hold pretty much hold half inch group shooting all the way through three position. Yeah, they'll they'll drop some points, but prone it's to be a competitive at the pro level, you have to shoot at six sixty out of sixty at fifty yards and that's wind calls. So you're shooting your you know, it's about half an inch bulls eye that you're shooting at. So yeah, if you're at the not even the national level, the top two or three guys will I'll be cleaning them sixty out of sixty shooting peep sites. Have you hunted squirrels much a little bit or cotton tails? Yeah? I was. I was stationed in Georgia, so George and Alabama is pretty pretty much bout hunting all that stuff. So these guys with hunt they could hunt, so they could hunt squirrels and just shoot off hand and hit squirrels out of the trees in the head. Yeah, those guys are some of those guys are nuts. How well how well they shoot? Yeah, I shoot a twenty two rifle decent. I'm not you know, some of those guys are pretty good. But yeah, I alwaysally just messed around to take my glock nine all to go squirrel hunting. Just get get up on that and you could get that good with that. Yeah, I can hit squirrels with it. Okah. Best So funny story. A buddy of mine, who's who's it back in the service now, he's actually one of the Special Forces groups. Now, I was in the marksmanship unit with we were teaching classes, because when you're in the Army Marksmanship Unit, it's kind of a duel. You have to be an instructor and a competitive shooter. So you you do your training and you compete, but you also were on the instructor instructing side of it. And the unit started in fifty six and the the idea was is, hey, we need to figure out how to teach people to shoot well. So what's what better way to do that than have people compete? And then they learned the best way of doing everything, and then they convert that to the military and then teach all the joes. So that was kind of the mission statement of the unit and it stayed pretty much the same all the way through. And that was the unit you were in. Yeah, yeah, the Army Markmanship Unit. And it's and that's they're still you know, your titles a shooter instructor, so your training, but then you're also going in teaching, which I found that to be, uh, probably the more rewarding side of it, just because you're working with guys that just could literally save their life and you know, help them to be effective. So we had a class and we were teaching. There was about twenty guys, and it was a close quarters marksmanship c q M stuff. So you're shooting rifle, you know, car beings and pistols out to fifty yards. It's kind of the running gun if you think shooting type stuff. So we're at this class and a lot of the guys to qualify, we had a six inch dot at fifteen yards and that was kind of the standard that we tried to get them too by the end of the class. So everybody was kind of shooting, and it was lunchtime, and whenever it is lunch, we had amman around and guns, so we always just kind of kept shooting. So my buddy was out there shooting and we look up on the berm and it's kind of about eighty yards this berm, and then maybe thirty or forty up to the top, and there's this fox squirrel that's running along this berm, and so we see this thing like I was like, hey, hey, there's a squirrel up there. So of course, you know, it's open season on squirrels, and we're like all right. So the squirrel kind of comes down the berm a little bit and Buddy walks forward yards. He's not right next to the class. They're all kind of sitting under this covered area and this squirrels maybe seventy eight yards away and it's sitting in this tree, and so he pulls out his glock, you know, thirty four. It's like a long slide clock, nine millimeter, and everybody's looking at him like, yeah, there's no way, you know, we've been trying to hit the six inch dot. So he shoots and I think he missed his first shot at it. Second shot, he smoked this thing and it's like hanging from the tree. So he shoots again, missed his third shot, shoots again, hits it again. It's fourth time and it falls. So he runs up there and grabs the squirrel. So it was really funny watching the expression on all these guys's face. They're like, this guy just shot a squirrel of a tree like eighty yards away with a nine millimeter clock. So that's how that's kind of where you can get with some of that stuff. So those guys that you shoot all the time, it's just it's crazy how accurates something you can get, especially with a pistol. You know, we carry pistols for bare protection sometimes and now and then we'll get around shooting the pistols. It's embarrassing. It's so hard. Well, we took one class um from really well known instructor. By the end of that class we get all hit uh gong at a hundred yards with uh and it's it's form, man form and and just and the mental thing. There's like a mental thing and like I can't hit stuff with a pistol. And it's like then you watch somebody pull up and shoot a man sized target at like two hundred yards like ding ding ding ding ding ding, and you're like, Okay, it's voodoo, and it's like, no, it's not. You just have to you gotta get your mind right. There's like a certain way of thinking about pistols and triggering in sights and then once you get the form, like how to lock it down. The most the most shooting disciplines are like that, right, I mean, shooting a thousand yards with the rifle seems intimidating until you lay down and have somebody tell you how to do it. Yeah, it's true. You have a spot or to you know, to walk you through it, and you've got control. I think that's the other thing about pistols. It's there's nothing. There's no support system where rife. But you've got a stock and you've got you know, you can kind of make it stop moving and keep it from like twitching. It's like pistol, any little thing. It's all about the mechanics of how you're shooting it, and it goes back to just repetitions. But that was kind of our thing in training. It's the most boring thing in the world, but trying to get your hold super super tight. So we would literally hold against a wall for half hour forty five minutes a day, and you work on body sway because you naturally sway when you stand, so you're trying to eliminate all that so that you're not moving your site back and forth on the target. You say, hold against the wall. You just had your arm up. Yeah, but what does that mean like you're pushing. Nope. You just take a pistol and you hold it about a foot from the wall and you've got a dot and you just try and hold it on that dot. Is basically work through your body and try and get all the movement out and just work on keeping that as still as possible, and you kind of build up all your little stabilizer muscles. But it's it's crazy how tight you can hold with the pistol once you've if you've trained that for so long, because if you're shooting that something so small, you can't be if you're moving around a lot, you know your wobble area. You're trying to get that as small as possible, and then you just it's like any other pistol. You're trying to break it inside that little wobble. But the smaller you get it, the more consistent you'll be in the more you know your score will go up. How much do your sites matter to you? Like if you have all your mechanics that matters if because you think about it, you know if you're off by a millimeter on your side alignment, that's throwing you off by inches at even fifty feet, so you know it it sites front sight, side alignment. The targets blurry when we shoot, you're just it's literally just locking those sights in. And we had the national coach name is Sergey lose Off. He was a Russian shot running target over in Russian and then came over with a pistol coach, so he had an accent. But he's like, you know, and I don't know if I can do a good Russian accent or not, but he's like Ukrainian. I think, all right, Russia, we're pretty what you have to do, He's like, it's like we have It's like you got to think about it like this. It's it's like your front sites are not like this. Uh, you're just watching this child walk around the room. He's like, he's like, you have to grab the child and slam him on the on the table and like holding there. That's how you work. The sites sounds Russian and I was like, oh sir, He's like, you know, they're not just passive. It's like you need to grab them. I was like, okay, okay, I got it. Sites are important. Can you Is there anyone that makes Does anyone make money shooting competitively? Is there any like paid? Um? Well, if you're good, that's the key. And I know some of the guys that I shot within the unit, like three guns pretty a lot of guys get out and they go work for you know, some of the guys that were went now top shooter for cig for instance. So you go get an industry job like that, Yeah, you make good money or um vincent Um that shoots shotgun a lot of Hancock. He's a you know, multi time gold medalists, so he's out of the army now and does a lot of training seminars so he'll go and has his own kind of training system and does that. So you can make money on that side of it. But generally speaking, unless you're really really good or you get sponsorships, there's not when you're not going out and winning a hundred thousand dollars. YEA three gun is really the main one where guys could make because you're gonna get sponsored by several companies that basically pays. There's some payouts. Explain three gun for people. So three gun is uh, it's an action sport where you're shooting rifle, pistol shotgun. So it's a running gun. Anybody that shot like I, D P A, U, s P, s A, any of the action pistol stuff. You're running those guns and there's different classes so you can run. Some of them are race guns ports and a dot on them don't even move. And then you've got limited which is more you know, you have to shoot iron sights and you're limited on some of your magazine stuff, and then production is just like a stock glock. You can change a couple of things, but not a lot, so there's different classes. And then it's just running through a course and you'll have you know, a R fifteen target air fifteen rifle and you're shooting targets that are either paper steel, so you have like knocked down fall down plates. You know a lot of steel and it's either two hits on steel or one hit on steel knock them over. And then you've got paper targets with rings so like a ring b ring you know, see ring type stuff. So you're just running through a course and you have it all three guns at once, not not usually some of them. Um so there's a match and I haven't shot a lot of three guns, but they had had a match that um MGM. It's like the metal target company they sponsored out in Idaho, like eastern southeastern Idaho called the Iron Man, and so their stages were I mean you'd run a stage and be like four or five minutes long, and you have to drag dummies and like have weights and you shoot i mean like sixty shots a shotgun and you start you're like loading a shotgun, go through like four magazines on your pistol, and it was just super long stages and you're running through and so they say you start here, you gotta shoot this bank of targets and you could miss stuff and you know, you're trying to keep track of everything and like, oh, you didn't see that target, and so that's those are kind of fun. And then a lot of them are more controlled, where's a tight stage and you just kind of run through and play the game and it's all about speed and accuracy. So how fast can you move? The guys that are really really good at it, you can break down the stage and find the least amount of movement. And it's they don't tell you how to shoot anything, so you can shoot pretty much any order as long as you're not you know, shooting back. It's like a one eight plane that you can't break and people just work through it and it's it's pretty cool that like hitting all the targets. Yeah, and you're just trying to, you know, go through and hit everything as fast as you can and the least amount of movement and then it's all time time versus hits. Yeah, a lot of times they'll be a shooting house or like to answer your question about where the guns are, you'll have like a barreled shotguns and some of them are or air fifteen on the table, so you know, some of them make you pack them so you shoot it and then you gotta sling it. Like that's where I was going with the Iron Man. It's like you gotta sling stuff and carry it sometimes. But a lot of them, like you said, you shoot your pistol drop in a box, grab your rifles. Should your rifle drop in a box, grab your shotgun, finish it out, clear it. So that's to keep it safe. And are the mill a dude? The military guys dominate this or there people who've never been in the military, they're good at um. Both. It comes out of training. You know obviously in the unit. If you've got guns face you know that. Think cool thing about the a m U is we had a fully functional gun shop with full time guys that are working on machining, I mean full on CNC machines. They could pretty much redesign and build anything you wanted them to. Full reloading room guys that all they do is reload and test. So in terms of figuring out the market, you've got guys like that, which is obviously an advantage, but a lot of it's just time on the range and bullets range. It's time and run through, run through your stages. Like everything has to be muscle memory. How do I cut off a half a second on the shotgun reload? How do I cut off half a second on this movement? Half a second here? Because that adds up and that's the difference between first and tenth. I tried this some years ago, and it was reloading that got me all the time. Reloading a shot shotguns horrible and I was horrible, like fumbling everywhere. You drop around like oh, pick that up, and then you know, if you don't get them all in there, you're just gonna miss one, like you just and then you got to keep going. Yeah, but military is good. We we shot some of that styled stuff, so there's kind of a competitive side. And when we were in we stood up a team. So the last year that was in the unit actually went over we called the I T. G and Structure Training Group and usually what we did we had the pistol shooters kind of teach the close range stuff, you know. The Service Pistol International pistol, and then the rifle shooters that were on the rifle teams, they taught kind of the long range wind calling in position stuff and it worked okay, and what we did, um some guys stood it up. And then I actually joined the team after they had kind of started working on it was to develop a curriculum that said, hey, we've got guys like like myself and other guys have shot through college and we had you know, six a ten years of shooting experience. And then we had guys that came over from like the third range of battalions at Fort Bennings. A lot of those guys would come over. So you've got guys that have been deployed six ten times and spent a lot of time, you know, years in combat. And then you take those guys you say, all right, what's effective in combat? What's effective if you're if you're in houses, if you're knocking on door, or is if you shooting long range? What type of situations do you see? How do you make this effective? And then we took our shooting ability. So I know how to pull a trigger, I know how to run a gun, but how do you kind of meld the two together so that you're running a gun so it's combat effective and that was really really cool, and then developing programs through that. So we trained a lot of kind of three guns. But it's like, how do you get your kid efficient? How do you get the stuff quickly? How where do you put your magazines? How do you set up your rifle so that you're not you know, everything's quick inefficient. So efficiency of movement is important no matter what what your shoot, if it's combat or if it's you know, training. I think I told you this, uh over dinner, But one time went down. I was the guest of Special Forces Group in Fort Bragg, and I went down into their compound and I was surprised because I went out to watch them train and they were training on something that seems like so specific. They were spending the day training on how to transition from your rifle to your pistol. Right basically, they're training how to drop that and pull your pistol out so and shoot a target with it. And it's it seems small, but you've got to think about the situation that you're looking at. Okay, you you bust into a building and all of a sudden there's guys popping out with guns and you pull the trigger and you hear the loudest sound in the world click, right, and then what now. It's like, well, you can try and clear your rifle and get around in it, or you know, misfire. You don't necessarily know what's wrong. You have some sort of malfunction. Well, we train, and it's kind of been a transition in the military away from we'll get your rifle up. Pistols are just there so you can look good, I guess, to where it's like, no pistol can be an effective tool. So that's where you see those transitions. It's like, and I know a guy that I did some work with that had a situation where this happened, and it's the same thing as like click. He tried to clear it, click, and all of a sudden, the guys turned around with a gun. It's like, what do you do now. It's like, well, I've got a secondary weapon, because it's always primary secondary, that's how they train in the military. He's like, well, here comes the pistol and basically saved his life. So that's why if you shoot it, it doesn't go and you've got a threat in front of you. It's like you have to get to your secondary as quickly as possible. And if it takes you three seconds to do that, which isn't a lot of time, but it's a whole lot different than second half. That's why that's such an important thing. And you know, you start from the ground up. That's where every little you train, every aspect. You start with just a gunlow, bring a gun up and shoot, and then you bring a gun up and shoot left and right, you know, transition targets, and then you bring up and shoot close near, and then you do a reload, and then you just kind of work your way through every aspect and then that gives those guys ability to train, and you can do it without even shooting. You know, you can transition, you can do all that stuff, practice movements and it's it's crazy how quick you can shoot transitions and how fast you can move between gear and how fast you do a reload. Where do you put your your kit at all? And like you said, it's like we'll spend a whole day doing this. It's like, well, the level of details fast and thing. I recently heard an interview with an FBI agent. He was saying the FBI Academy, they teach you how to unbuckle your seat belt. They did like you to take your left hand and put it between your body and the belt, slide down to the buckle, reach your finger around and unclipped the buckle and move it so that it diminishes the chances that if you need to get out of your car quickly, that you become entangled in your seat seatbelt. And like to think about that, someone's looking at like that level of that that level of specificity, and you're saying, once you learn it, you never unbuckle your belt another way. It just becomes like how you're doing being in grizzly country though, Like if you're thinking about having bear spray and a pistol, and then no one ever talks about it, never practice you have to, like you should have that transition down and where how you get your pistol, how you get your bear spray, and have practiced that even think you don't practice it. So then we we talked about doing a thing where now and then when you're out in grizzly country, but now and then someone should just clap their hands with those stop watch and be like how long does it take everyone to like dig through their pack by their prepper spray die. It's like, quick, where did I put that stuff? You know? Yeah, man, it's the same kind of danger. You know, I don't want to get eaten by a barrel or shot by a dude. You know your chances if you spend a lot of time in the wilderness, you know your chances are higher, meaning by a bear in a lot of cases, and getting shot in Montana. I mean, just reality. What like, what makes what makes a good shooter? Is it? Is it? I know you can't divide them out, but what makes the actor a great shooter? Is it is? It's psychological? Is it physical? Definitely? Psychological? More psychological. We'd say shooting is physical nine percent metal. What is the metal? So this is where it gets crazy, right, depends on what you're doing. So if it's a dynamic thing, then it's about training muscle memory, training movements. So it's like building up your your kind of processes, your thoughtless processes. On the more intentional side of it, So like the stuff that I shot is very slow, methodical, all process based. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to get a mental process that is repeatable, and then you are a plan and then you stick to that and that's what you're doing the whole time. So you work on the physical you know, the holding the gun, that triggering and all that, but then the rest of it becomes mental. So we would read a lot of you know, golf books, tennis books, things like that, because it's the same idea. It's like when you have your golf swing down. You know, anybody at the top fifty guys in the PGA can alsowing in golf club, It's like, what's the difference. It's like, well, where they put themselves mentally, the decisions they make, you know, making good shots, following their process exactly the same way every time, and that's where it's you know, it's like it's like a lot of things, I guess, it's process oriented versus outcome oriented. So you're trying to keep yourself from thinking about what's the implications of if I do this or that. It's like, no, it doesn't matter. I'm just gonna do my process and whenever happens happens, I've trained the process and I'll stick to it. And that you're not obsessing over the outcome. You can't if as soon as you think outcome, you're done. That's what I think. Like, that's the thing I found that over the years, I've become I hesitate to use the word, I'm not gonna say very good. Over the years, I've become good, um like good as a rifle hunter. Okay, not like I don't take insane shots, but I don't have a lot of I don't I don't make a lot of mistakes because you just like do this, this, this, this, this, and it just happens. But archery, But the minute, the minute something's approaching, all I'm thinking about. I'm I'm in what you say, outcome all I'm thinking about his outcome. I'm like, I don't want to miss it. I don't want to wound it. It's like it's all I'm thinking about with my rifle. I'm not like I sure hope, I I sure hope I don't wound it. I'm like, very fun. Yeah, I'm very focused with like, I'm very like I know that I'm gonna do what I do and I know that I will I will be successful, Like I just know that that will happen. So I've developed that confidence with archery I can't overcome. It's a major problem with archery. I can't overcome jumping to the unknown the outcome. It's funny put it that way, because it's just but it's in your head, man, it's in your head. I've got a mental image. This is from like five years ago, still like crisp as Day, and it's this. It's me letting an arrow go in a bull. It was about thirty five yards away and watching the arrow go to to do four ininges over his back and like I, I shoot a bed of archery a little bit, you know, for a while, and so I can. I can shoot a boat pretty decent. And thirty five yards is not a long shot, and it's wide open, nothing between us, you know, grass, and he's standing there and I'm looking, and then you have this mental play back and I'm thinking because I was kind of in some low grass and I was trying to stay real, real low. And then I remember and it's like, okay, so your your mind goes through into this whole you know, this whole memory and about you know, a millisecond, and it's like you have all these pictures that you can kind of play back, and I'm thinking you know, when I looked at that pin, there was a triangle that I was looking at that pin through. It was not a circle. That was my peep side. And I know I came back and I was oh, and I looked right over the top of my peep site through the little you know, you're accommodation. And I came through and I was like, this is perfect. I was like, and the arrow goes fours and three four in right over his back like dead nuts, straight up right up the back of the leg, right over only in hindsight, and I'm like, I totally looked over my peep site and it's like something that I think I've ever done that. Like you said, man, you get in that situation and it's like the blood starts pumping in a big bowl and you're like, I've recently going to a back tenson or at least because I was getting jumpy. And once you go to the back tension release, if you're not the form isn't right and you're not pulling the right way, it's not going off. I keep surprised people talk about this, but it's like trend. It fixes a lot. Just it's a trend. People have been talking about for a long Have you doing this because my brother like switched. It's it's really like what I would when I was practicing with the trigger. You know, one out of six shots, I'd get tired. I'd be jumping the trigger when you're practicing what I would do on the teachings of John Dudley, like I would put I'm focused on my back elbow, feeling that deltoid muscle pull in the right way right, focus on that muscle, focus on my follow through, and you almost you stop thinking about your front, your site. You're thinking about it, and my following through the proper process is my process going. We used to I used to put um and I still do this. Put a speaker behind me, directly behind me where I want to pull to turn music on. Public speaker, put you suck you suck uh, and put music on and pull to the music right and and have my elbow go towards the music and focus on you know how my elbow is traveling towards that sound, and you totally forget what's going on in the front half of your body. And I'm more accurate like that than any other way. Yeah, I'm going to I haven't but I'm going to see. That's the thing is Kenyan was like he Mark Kennyon's talking about he's gonna finish up the season and then switch, so he's got plenty of time to switch into. I've thought about that. I thought about having a thumb release, which is generally the same set up, but you're you have a thumb trigger instead of right, so you you flip to that and it's kind of the same motion, but you have control, right, so if an elks coming in, you don't have to wait. But I know guys like I would say Shane Dory and a bunch of guys that have bow hunted with recently who took the leap and said I'm just gonna hunt with this thing, and the next thing I know, they're five shots, five dead animals at all different ranges, all different times. So I mean, you just adapt to it as being the most sound way to have a process in the woods. I've been thinking about. It forces you to do it right. It forces you to do it right. I just hate like new learning new stuff, man, because you know, I mean, like after so many years of doing something some way, I would rather it's just easy, not easier it's you just almost want to double down on what you know rather than really changing. Like if someone said, like, there's a new rifle out and you put a thing in your mouth right and you just bite down to make it go off, which is probably not a bad idea, Yeah, maybe, but I would be hesitant. I was very hesitant when I met with John. I'm like, that's a good idea. Yeah, somebody right that there just like pinch between your eye teeth released. I know. I know a guy who got in an accident last year man some like trash compactor thing and he got like squished in it, messed up his back, shoulders and no, no on the job dude. But he's really he's really, he's really, he's really serious figous hunter imagine something. You know some of you know him. But he hunted last year with a with a bow with a mouth release because he couldn't draw no, no, like t it was a tab that he was biting and drawing his bow. Yeah. I grew up with a guy like that. He'd lost his arm in an accident and shot by holding the mouthpiece. I think he might have killed a bull doing that this year, but I don't remember exactly. I think he did. He are you talking about Josh? Why? Why are you guys being all secret at No? I just just because I couldn't couldn't bring it to mind right away. Yeah. Yeah, And you like how much name dropping do you want to do on the Meat Eater podcast? You want to bring too much the right amount to not be confusing to people, right, that's my that's my barometer. I feel like you're feeling a little high and mighty in your fancy sweater today. Dude, I'm never Are we gonna talk about it? Are we gonna talk about it? Well, let's talk about it. Listen, man, there's either I either make my wife happy or I make you guys happy. And guess if I'm more interested in making happy, Yes, man's gotta man's gotta make my An's gotta make my wife. Commented on how handsome I looked in the sweater she bought me. Yeah, she bought you the sweater that she knew she bought it for you. See if he wears it again, sweaters just so we can have an interaction, it'll bring us closer. Uh. Nice sweater pivoting away from my sweater? That was quick. Psychological what okay, you hunt, this is this is good. You'll be able to hand to this. How much does what you learned from competitive shooting where it's just replicating controlled atmosphere, right, is hunting just totally different? Yes, yes, and no, there's crossover. It's uh, it goes back to the process. You gotta put yourself like you know I said, and you miss a bowl and it's like, how did I do that? It's like, well, you get amped up and you don't follow through your process that it's kind of the same thing. You know, it even combats the same thing. Guys that go over and they say, well, you guys are good shooters, but you got a combat it's gonna be totally different. It's like we used to say, you know, you will perform at your lowest level of training, So your worst day, that's how you can expect to shoot. Now, you might do better, but you're always going to revert back to your lowest level of training. Everybody wants to, you know, peek before and you're gonna rise to the occasion. It's like that doesn't happen very often. You you'll revert back to your lowest level of training. So that day when you feel like crap and you're pulling crappy shots, and that's how you're gonna shoot. When you get a big bullet front of you, you might shoot better, but that's what you can count on, you know, your lowest level of training. So it does your surious day. Yeah, that's the range. Yeah, work on eliminating those. That's that's the whole point. You know, Like talking about back tension releases, it's like, well, maybe it doesn't give you as much control, but if it's more consistent, like it eliminates those like jerk shots that go off in the neverland, It's like, well, then that eliminates that shot that that might be the shot you pull on a bowl and all of a sudden you shoot him back in the pond oring high liver or something. You know. The game you play with yourself, right is your You go, you're out hunting and you throw out a target and you make a nice shot. The tendency is to be like, okay shooting, because you want to end on that. You want to end on that feeling of that you got it dialed. If you shoot like a really bad one, want to shoot one more? Just I gotta I can't let that sit well, and that goes back, you know, to you guys are talking about long bogs. You know. I had it with traditional for a long time, and it's like that thing that's really where you gotta get your mind right because there's no pin to rely on. There's no like, oh, I'll just pull back with the pin in right place and squeeze the trigger. It's like, no, it's all process. I mean, you don't have anything to rely on. You're like, well, I've been doing this for a long time when I shoot a lot, so I'm just gonna come back, follow through your touch and that arrow. Hopefully it's gonna go we're supposed to and try and get you know, five yards away. That helps, but it's it's kind of that same thing. I think it does transfer a lot for the mental aspect, but I think a lot of it's just a process. What's my process? I get in there and you're thinking about the right thing and think about the first thing. You know a lot of guys like I don't. I don't know how to to break this down. It's like, well, if you get to step one, what step one? So say a bowl comes in, It's like step one is to say, like remind myself, you know, I'm gonna squeeze through the shot or I'm gonna back tension, you know, whatever works for you. Site make sure I'm picking the rights pin or focus on the pin, you know, let the elk be a little bit blurry or whatever it is. That's your first step in that process. And then say, I'm gonna do that first thing. I've got five steps or three steps, and I'm gonna do the first one. And if you do that, it's like your your process then takes over. It's when you get there and I don't know, I'm just gonna pick a random step and roll with it. Well, then your brain freaks out. That's that's step one, and then the rest of them will just go like you gotta you gotta it yourself into that, start your process and then it just is automatic or most of the time. You just said two things that resonate with me. I want to back up on one because I think it's such a it's a really interesting point I hadn't thought of. Is um practicing to eliminate your worst which is like when you're shooting, if you you know, if you're if you're out shooting, in your yard with your bowl and yeah, one in every six arrows is just like what the hell? Yeah right, how did that go? Yeah, and you write it off. It's like something. But it's like consistently if you throw a bad arrow, Yeah, if you could find a way to like think about that rather than trying you know, and of course you're trying to replicate your good shots to make more of them, but to isolate like the freaks. Well, it's because I have enough freaks for if you just imagine rolling the dice, Like if every time, if you're in a tree stand, every time a deer comes by and you've got one in six arrows is just crazy. You can never figure out why one in six arrows is crazy. It's gonna be in the back of your mind. You're like, well, is this gonna be the one? The bad one? Well, you don't like to train stuff you're not good at either. It's like I like to make this. You know, this is what I'm good at. I'm gonna go do that, so I feel good about it. But it's like the work involved is finding the areas where you're deficient or weak, saying, well, what causes that one six shot? Well, it's this, well, then train that, get better at that, and then it brings your whole system up. It's not as much fun. But you know, like blank bail shooting, you're blind shooting. A lot of the guys will stand there and just work on forum. You know, I do a lot, especially traditional. You just get a big blank bail and close your eyes and just what's it feel like? All right, that's the system, and then that's what you do. But it's not fun. It's not nearly as much fun as watching arrows flying to the target. I've I've tried. I've talked about this before, but my dad's somehow got his hands on these stickers. And when your kids that said, um, stay calm, pick a spot and you put them on the inside of the limb, yep, your bow. But then you start relying on this idea that you're gonna remember to read that damn sticker. But when I'm out, I don't. I don't do this with rifle hunting at all. But if I'm out bowl hunting, I spent a lot of time trying to be like when when the when a moment when you send some moments gonna happen to start going into this thing, like like you said to bring find yourself process. Yeah. But but and you could even be in a situation where you see something coming and you and you remember. You're like, you congratulate yourself for remembering be like the process process and just pick some part so you're aware that there is a process. But then all of a sudden, like you can't tell I remember hunting, hunting. Uh, so you can hear in Maryland this year, I had all the time in the world, so I called this. I called to a stag and he's starting to come and I'm like, wow, he's coming, and I'm like, hey, process, process, process, process, process. I'm trying to remember all the things I'm gonna do. And then he comes through this area where it's a lot of obstructions. So he passed through this little thicket and I'm like, he's gonna come all the way through and I'll never get a shot. But then all of a sudden, he stops in the weirdest little gap and instead of this whole thing that I've been telling myself about how I'm gonna do this whole walk through dimnity stops like right so like right up until the second and then even though I remembered, like I is happy to remember process, but then you get this gap and you're like, well, screw the process. Yeah, I think it's a good I gotta shoot this arrow. Yeah, it's like a good hunter. Who could who would be like I'm not gonna have an opportunity. There's an opportunity. I'm gonna stick to my plan and if it doesn't work or he steps away, then then too bad. And it's not like I'm now going to throw the whole thing out of the window and then show shoot over its back? Which which is? Which is? That's like Kyle hunting for me. I've been doing a lot of Kyle hunting in the winter. Man Kyle comes running in and it's like I forget, I mean you forget shoots like hundred yards stand at me and he's like they stop and you know they're about to rush like boom and you miss him. Like I'm shooting a sitting shot with back support and I missed a coyote straight up at eight inch target at a hundred yards. It's like it'll humble anybody. But it's like same thing. It's like I got this plan. He's gonna come over here and pop out, and all of a sudden, it's like there he's about ready to leave, and you're like, crap, shoot that shot takes off running. You're like, why didn't I do that? I could have taken a half a second actually squeeze line up, keep it steady, boom and dropping. But you're like, I gotta shoot now. What do you think is the biggest mistake? What what's the biggest mistake that UH hunters make when shooting? You can do it archery and and or archery and or rifle rushing the shot, I'd say, you know, I do it still. That's that's the main thing, trying to trying to push that shot. You know, you you break your plan, Like you said, I gotta I gotta shoot it now, I gotta I gotta do this, I gotta do that. If you just take that and it seems like forever in your mind, but if you actually watch a video of yourself shooting, you're like, I felt like I took an extra five seconds and it was three quarters of a second. That little bit of time to just okay, this is what I'm doing and then just do it seem like the deliberate you know, that's I try and tell myself that just be deliberate, be deliberate, be deliberate, because I know the system. I know the process. I've shot millions of rounds same things, like, be deliberate, make a deliberate shot. It helps me to repeat things like that. It just helps me bring my heart rate and my breathing down a little bit to have that mantra going. I always tell myself slow as smooth and smooth as fast, yeah, And I just kind of repeat that and try to not be like, you know, we used to say that all the time. You can't miss fast enough, can't miss fast enough. I do that. Also, I have a five for archer. I have a five step process. Right, So it's feet draw, anchor peep pull, right, that's all I do it. And I line my feet up and I do all the time, and that's good. Yeah. So you see a buck coming and you're like, remember feet drawl, So I draw straight back And I didn't come up with this, John Dudley did. But you all straight back, You find your anchor and then put your nose down and find your peep and then pull and you're not like you're never like shoot, it's pulled feet. Do you line your feet properly, you bring your bow up, you draw, you find your anchor, and the feet draw anchor, anchor peep and then pull. And if you could just remember to do that, Man, here's how I did just that. Here's how I generally do it. Feet draw. But yeah, but I feel like it's if if the process marries up with your ability to act in the moment. Like I read. I read a little bit on flow state and thought I was real smart, and then I thought I would flow state my way to killing animals didn't really work. What's flow state me? This is like a state of positivity and action and control, like focusing on like your mental state and being positive. I thought, oh if I meditated. I never meditated. But the idea that I could control mentally like this process and make sure nothing could penetrate it like one, two, three, four or five bam, just have never successfully doesn't work. It doesn't work. But that's when when you get to the back tension. Then you start to like control. You would make sure that hey, man, I can I can jump this, but I have to be pulling the right way. It doesn't matter. I can try to jump it but the back tension is is controlling me. My brother talks about lust and greed. Mm hm, the preacher, it's compelling. No, he talks about lost and green and honey because he's like, he could shoot targets all day long, but he doesn't lust for him. And when you put like a big game animal in front of him, like he says, it's it disappoints him that he's like the lust and greed wants it. He's like, I want it so bad that it blocks my ability to have it. Yeah, if you could just tell yourself there'll be another shot, there'll be another animal. They'll be like, if you just treat it like that, like it's got to be perfect or I'm not gonna do it. If you could somehow do that, life will be like maybe when I see something coming through the woods, I'll be like, who gives a ship? Just a big old box? Who really even wants this stupid thing? Stupid? It's probably gonna taste it's probably gonna taste terrible. Take a shot, but I don't care. I always think about that pistol course that we took, paid a bunch of money, Um, do this accelerated pistol course, by the end of the day, five out of five of us can hit a target with a pistol at a hundred yards, and I will guarantee you within a year, there wasn't one out of five of us that could hit a target with in fifty yards, right, because will you lock in the process and you're like, well, got that, I'll just put this on the shelf over here. Perishable skill. That's the thing about this, But so so is my long bow. Same thing? Yeah, yeah, because it process, process, process, muscle memory. Don't shoot that thing for a week. It's like, I'm a danger to myself. That's the weird thing in the archery space where everybody's gotta have a new bow every year, right, you gotta have the newest, greatest bow you have to. I mean, if you're gonna be any any kind of good, you're like, you're switching bows every year. I appreciate that nothing by two year old, both for a lot cheaper, but there's so many come on your five Yeah, I mean, but that seems to be a better way to go. You got a bow, you know, and you know the mechanics of it. You understand what it's gonna do. Why switch yeah, I take a pretty seer siously the switch like rifles, I don't care, I'll bounce. I'm nervous about not not even like I'm not like a great shot, right but far from a great shot. But I still get nervous about switching. But then I'm like, maybe I'll be better. But it's a good thing that that industry has done. Is I think I don't know if it's slowing down now. Maybe honest has perspective on this, but it'd be like it seemed like for a while, there's so many advances or they made you think they were advances, and then when you had an older bow, you were like missing out on the party. Yeah, and it's probably like a marketing creation still that way. I remember there's a particular company that used to have at a t A. They would have like a dude come in on a motorcycle with the new bow and it would be like fireworks going off and even drive they would like drive a motorcycle into their booth with the new bow and everybody be like and I'm like, what is this thing? Like is this thing shooting five fbs with a smooth draw? Like yeah, So it's but that they still every company still, you know, every company were assault in the industry still puts out a new model every year. I got a good question for you. Uh, this can like mental versus mechanics. Right, many many times I've gone down to the range just to make sure that my hunting rifle is on. All of my rifles are hunting rifles. So I don't know why I put that in there, but like I start out, get some some flyers, and then I end up adjusting my skill and then by the end of that session at the range and then readjusted it back to the original set. Mechanics or mental, I would say probably mostly mechanical. And the reason being is that depending on your rifle and conditions exact, Like I haven't shot rifle for six months, right, so you you haven't fired bullets for the board, it's not hot. As you go through it warms up, and depending on I mean, every rifle is different. It's like I've gotten to shooting a lot of long range stuff since I got out, just because it's kind of a cool gig and it brings a lot of things together for me. And uh, you do do wonder right because you're shooting these match rifles and heavy barrels. They weighed fifteen pounds or something, which is a light rifle. Now a lot of these guys are shooting twenty plus pound rifles and a lot of the camps. And so you get out there, you're all right'm gonna check my zero, make sure you go up there, and it's dead nuts. And over time you start to see trends like, well it's colder out, or it's warmer out, or you know whatever, my load changed. Is it a fresh reload or is it a you know, one's been sitting there for two months that change. Ammo? It's a different lot of ammo. You know, well it's the same box. It's like, yeah, but that was that's a different bullet and a lot of different primer, a lot different case, a lot of different powdered lot. So it's the same box, but it's like everything's changed. That's why I like, you know, reloading at this point, there are way too many variable and you can just like start like spinning yourself as far down the rabbit hole as you want to go. And I think a lot of it. You know, you get into a group, you know, how you shoot, your position plays a heart in that. So you shoot some rounds through, it gets formed up, you change your position, you get used to the recoil. You know, you're tight start with and then you relax into it, so that changes things a little bit. And so yeah, there's there's a lot of variables. I would say it's mostly mechanical and that's the key. You know, people have this idea, you know, like take snipers for example, like all these guys, they just they're wizards. It's like, well, there's a lot of trends through shooting. It's like where's my cold boar shot go, where's my bullet going? It's this format, where's my bullet going him at this elevation? So you just track that and then we keep you know, dope charts. You know, you write everything down and after time, same thing with a hunting rifle. Even when I used to shoot, you know, pistol, I would keep a log every day I shot. I would write down what I did, what I worked on, what I noticed. And then over time you can flip through that and you're like, oh, you start to see trends develop. And it's not something a lot of people do, but just journaling, you know, even you go to the range. Okay, go to the range. Just have a notebook and say I shot here. My gun was shooting three inches high and the left. I'm using this box, you know, maybe mark on your box of AMMO or a lot of ammoor. If reload fifty, it's easier because then it's the same. Let's say I reloaded this on this date. So then you go to the range and then you say, well, it always shoots, you know, it always starts out shooting high left, and then it goes down to the lower ride and then it goes back to the middle again. And so then you own if you're got hunting, like, okay, this frown is probably gonna go, you know, two inches high and left, even though it was zeroed off the last group. Because that's what it always does. My journal would always be the same, man, be like, shot some pretty sweet shots, hit some couple flyers, ended on a good note. Yeah, my first question would be what defined what your flyers are? When you say I have a few flyers and so I start messing with my scope. Man, my my brain is strange because I have like a very very select few things where I get like super anal attendive on one is like building arrows and and even like tuning my arrows to my my bows, um and my my groups. I'm like, well, that doesn't look like a tight group to me. When I have somebody be like, well, yeah, but you're shooting an in group. How far do you really shoot? You know? So um, but something that just looks sloppy. You know. It's like, well, I got three within and four inches, uh, two hundred yards and then I got to ten inches for an example. Your group goes from four inches to ten inches. So you're saying, yeah, just just like some sloppy us. And I'm like, nope, I know I did everything right. Everything felt great, and I can't mentally wrap my head around wide how one bullet could stray a minute of elk and walk away. Do the old the old Michigan trick. Put out a pie plate at a hundred yards, Yep, hit it, We're good to go. Shot a five inch group and a hundred we're solid. Yeah, yep, those do kill. It's that's something to remember too, because I shoot, you know, you're I want a gun that shoots for shooting a match guns like half inch. A lot of guys get wrapped around and they'll do low development to the nth of green. Like I want a gun that shoots quarter m o a, it's like, well, a gun that will actually shoot true quarter m a A for like five shot groups is rare. I mean you're getting into benchres world. Think I got guns that I've done out and shot and they'll shoot seven eights pretty consistent. And as long as you're not shooting targets outside of that, I mean, think how they get target you're shooting. It's like I can shoot two Emily targets all day long. It's all about your wind calls and everything else. So I don't get too wrapped around that anymore. As long as it's a consistent load and it's you know, keeping to that same thing, it's like, well it's well under an inch half inch is great, but in for hunt rifle, it's like a shooting an inch, Like that's pretty solid. But that's good. Chuck Christopher, it's a big competitive bench ResQue guy out of Idaho. I don't um I'd go down. He's got a facility built at his house, basically like a bunker on the hillside. I think you should have yeah, flat tire ranch um fitting and I used to go up there to try to like site my rifles in with him, and it was just the most it's it's a add experience. You share the eggs at yards and stuff like that, and he is so dialed and he's so he's got his process down and his process and like the hunting equivalency like they just do not meet, like like it's not real world. It's almost a different sport. When you're talking about some of that bench rest complete, it's amazing those guys are shooting four or five inch groups at a thousand though consistently like their eggs or you know, they'll shoot like three matches and they're shooting five inch groups four inch groups with a little six mil or something coldly cow. You know. It's funny about when you talk about the consistency and the consistency of the equipment is the way that there's this idea that back in Boon's era that these guys are like these expert marksmen, you know that they like shoot and split lead on hatchets and stuff like that. It's like when you think about that they were hand pouring bullets, sometimes making their own gunpowder and then having shooting rifles that were that were rifled by hand. You're like, and then people like they have this sing like this right old tick liquor. You know, it could shoot the tick off a possum, or can split bullets on hatchet heads of twos. It's like, it would be so nice to be able to go back in time to see Daniel Boone and his compatriots. I remember, like if you read of that that account, there are accounts that people would complain about um people out in the settlements, how they would just shoot all day long, how lazy they were because if they weren't out hunting, they would just shoot. But to go back and like what kind of groups with those guys actually throwing it would have been interesting because the mythology is this like real you know, these like super accurate heart shot every time. But when you think about the inconsistencies of all the equipment, it must have been some sloppy ass shooting back then, Like there's no way they could have gotten good, Like how good could you get when every shot is just something so different? I don't know. In some ways I had inclined to agree just because of the quality, But then you had a lot of guys that were true craftsmen that could build. I mean that's why who built the rifle mattered, because you had guys that you said, we're throwing stuff together. But you look at guys that try and recreate some of that stuff, and they're using modern day C and C machines in the whole line yards and like, I'm having trouble getting to where this guy was consistently kind of making things, you know, handmade, like trying to replicate how they did this. It's pretty wild. And then if you go back and you look at the Civil War, you look at some of these some of these different rifles that these guys were shooting. I mean, you had guys that were shooting eight nine hundred yards in the Civil War that we're taking some of these you know creed More rifles and stuff, and they were sniping guys crazy distances. And or you go to the black Powder the Buffalo rifles, and you look at what those guys shoot, you know, like they have the quickly shoots and they shoot these black power It's crazy. What and they're doing the same thing. Those guys are you know, pouring those are say boats and you know they're not shooting round balls. But it's it's still sometimes I wonder. I'm like, I wonder if they like did have this figured out, if it's you know, like like the Pyramids, or like, I don't know how they did it, but here's the result, you know, if they were legit or if it's like you know, it's kind of oh yeah, he was a great shot. He could you know, shoot the takeoff of Bossum. It's like there's a there's a thing in group at fifty yards and never else you're shooting a foot group, you know, Like I don't know, there's a thing called the Battle of Adobe Walls, when the bad at the Battle of Adobe Walls. It was a bunch of buffalo hunters down on the Southern Plains when they weren't supposed to hunt south of the Southern Railroad, but they started going down there and they got into a skirmish. I can't remember what tribes they got into a skirmish with, but there's this legend this guy making a shot, a thousand plus yard shot, and I was like, how much did he walk out and be like, haile married it and happened to hit someone, and how much did he'd be like here's what's gonna happen. It seems like hyperbole was pretty prevalent in that culture too, So this shot was substantiated by multiple sources because there was the the adobe walls thing. Yeah, and they credited that shot with ending the battle. But I'm saying, how much, like how much did he just go out and wing one out there? And he was more surprising and more surprised than the guy he hit. And I believe those it wasn't because it was like a little trade center, right, like trading post. And one of the accounts that I read like those are brand new rifles, like somebody brought them in to then sell and when. Um, because this was in Empire of the Summer Moon Ranche. I know it from Dan Flore. He's talking about it, and the way Dan Flores presents it is from the buffalo hunter's perspective, it was this long shot that's so stunned their adversaries. Um, like the hand of God is against us, We're just gonna go ahead. From the tribal perspective, someone had on the way to the battle, someone had killed a skunk and was taboo to kill a skunk ahead of a battle, or taboo to kill a skunk in general, and when like that man fell, it was affirmation that someone had violated a taboo. And that's their perspective on why that battle went south. So I asked Dan Floorys, I'm like, who was right, and he's like, both of them. You got hit viable and that's the derivation of like getting skunked. Right. I'm not sure, but I like it. But yeah, I mean I've heard the same It all plays out the exact same way, obviously, but I've heard, um there's a uh, you know, a very reputable shaman type character who said, you know, we go do this tech, I guarantee nobody will get touched. And then at the very outbreak, obviously somebody gets touched and in a baby way, and it was like, well all over, good, mojo is is gone. Shot. Yeah, it could have been a skunk, could have been whatever. There were two battles of adobe walls, and it was a very small amount of hide hunters defending like a little encampment from hundreds of adversaries, but with high falute and equipment, yeah, like big fifty col uh buffalo rifles. And in the one account I read, they were like brand new in box like trade goods. Right, So then like break about boys, we're under attack? Yeah, what did we missed? Steth? What is there? More? Is there like any uh marksmanship business that I should ask you about it? Never did? I want to ask about big boar pistols. How much experience do you have with them? Not a lot? I've shot? Uh. I went up to Alaska just in actually during college. I had a buddy that was a little bit younger than me that just graduated high school. So I first started college, we went up to Alaska. So I bought a forty four mag put them hardcast bullets, like we're going to bear a country. Time to get a little bigger peciooter. So I shot that a little bit. I've shot like four sixties and some of that stuff, but not a lot. You know, is it a lot harder or is it still just in your head the fact that you're dealing with this thing that just barks and makes your hand hurt so bad? Similar concepts, you know, It's it's definitely different. It's like driving a race. Carver's driving a you know, I don't know something. Yeah, I'm like it's a little different, but yeah, similar ideas, you know, breaking the trigger, keeping your keeping your sightes tight and breaking the trigger, and yeah, it's similar concepts, but it takes some muscle memory to get past the blast for sure, because like what you're speaking to is like a forty four mag with a four inch barrel. Yeah, how uncomfortable, how uncomfortable it is. And then how stunningly inaccurate one is. Well, they can be accurate, but I've always thought of those. You know, it's like, how light can we make a four fifty four so that it's easy to carry in bear country? Right? And then you're shooting the or a five hundred and it weighs, you know, two pounds versus like the four that it should weigh. Plus It's like, to me, that's what we call a get off me, bro weapon. You know, it's like the bears right here. It's like it's me to you, I just gotta be able to get that thing to bark and get it out and shoot at ten ft. I'm not I'm not gonna be go out and trying to smoke a bear with that thing at a hundred fifty yards. I might be getting this story wrong with someone was telling me about they had these They had a bunch of guides who carry revolvers short barreled revolvers is bear protection. It did something where they put him at the bottom of a hill and some guy rolls a basketball down the hill. Okay, I think I could be MESSI do you know this story before hit and that's the thing you're supposed to hit this bear in the head with as he's coming down on you. Well and until your point about protection, So if you're shooting a hunting pistol or something, then that's stiff. You don't put a scope hunt or maybe that's different. And I've I was talking to a kid whose dad used to hunt with a with a pistol and he was one of those guys that shot the big board like the four sixty rowlands and all those the wheel guns. And his dad, I guess, was one of those pistol arrow types that he just he's put tens of thousands around to it's one gun. And he was telling stories. They were breaking him. He need break cleay pages on hundred yards with this thing all the time. You know, rabbit would come around now and he just smoked this rabbit, you know, And there's tons of stories throughout the frontier days of pistol arrows that could just make incredible you like at Bob Munden, how fast that guy could draw and shoot. It's like you can't even see him. It's like ba boom, Like okay, I guess it's legit. You know Ross pistol shot. Well yeah, but you know, like as Bob Ross is slow, this guy's fast. So it's like, you know, polar opposites, you know. And uh, he's like, yeah, my dad used to go shoot. He went and shot a brown bear in Canada. Last guy, I guess, and he shot the singing like a hundred forty yards. It was standing up and he shot right in the center of the chest. But he said they went out with the guide, you know. I mean, kids is telling stories, but I'm sure you know he can back them up. And other guys like, gah, that's dude, I've never seen make shoot pistol like this iron sights. So we're gonna go site in our hunting rifle and his guys kind of the same way to put up a paper plate. Shoot, you know, three shots on it. Yep, they're all on the plate. We're good to go. And this guy sting with a pistol. He's like a you shooting on a hunt a brown bear with a pistol. Boy, you know what kind of thing. He's like, sure, So he gets up there off hand, shoots four rounds I think on this plate or five rounds. I don't think the five rounds. Goes up there and it's like a four inch group on this plate a hundred yards, and he's like, literally, he shot a better group off hand with his pistol than the guy did shooting off the hood. And so the guys like, well, I guess. So there's guys out there, and I've known a couple that they shoot big bore stuff and take crazy accurate. But for me, my the gun I carry is a clock ten mill hardcast bullets because sometimes volumes volume is better than one. I get one off for the five hund to get that thing out, like I can. I can shut a clock pretty quick. So and I got ten rounds in that thing. So if I got a bear this to start chewing on me, I can get three or four off hopefully before I get knocked down. And so that's that's where I'm at. It's a it's a platform I'm used to and what are you doing this fall? I want to get together and hunt, like where I have tag and you don't watch for bears. You got it guessing it's going to be somewhere towards the direction over there, over there. That's the thing man bears have been. You know, there's a lot of areas I've hunted and been around and I've never hunted. You know. You get down to like tom On or Basin or some of those areas. Guys that won't hunt there anymore, they're like, I I used to hunt there every year, but we were it's not if you run into a bear, It's like, what's the situation gonna be like? And it's every year. They're like, it's not worth it. You're walking out in your head lamp. It's like, you know, it's always kind of that, oh there's something in the night. It's like, well there is, you know, and like you're gonna run into them at some point, Like yeah, outfitters that don't work in certain areas because they're still because you're so bad on feeding it just as hard the bears. Just like what are you gonna do about a buddy? Yeah, you can't hurt me, now what you do about it now, you got any more you want to hit? Yeah, well, we had an email coming about the definition of loaded. Yeah, I think that would have been saving to talk about. Well, it's legal, it's a legal question. It is. Well, but no, because the weekend I've posed it to a couple of different people and uh, everybody's kind of got two answers. That's a good question. So he's a the guy's a lawyer. Yeah, I think it's a gap. Yeah, you want me to spell it out? Yeah, I read this. I actually saved this to talk about I didn't get to it. Yeah, she the I was trying to do my best here to make it simple for when she was in the courtroom, and I think that it was it came down to the definition of loaded, because too um for the perpetrator to be charged with aggravated assault, the gun had to be loaded. So then they came down to, well, what is loaded, because if it's not, then the punishment is not gonna be severe or the charge won't be as severe as if it is. And she says, well, the mag was full, and the other guy says, well, no, if it didn't have one in the chamber. So it wasn't loaded, So it's not you know, like he was saying, I'll shoot you. But if he actually can't shoot because he doesn't have a loaded weapon, then that's where like the gray area was. So she's like, dude, I for sure thought that you know, low you know in the magazine means loaded. And she went home and has been, you know, talking to other people about it and everybody, and she seems to be Uh. She wants to argue, wasn't She wants to argue that her client's gun wasn't loaded because he didn't have one chambered. No, she's saying that it was what she wants whoever where she stands on the case. But she's wanting to argue that having it having a loaded magazine counts for a loaded weapon. I think when you're talking about pointing it at a person, if you're out hunting, and he said, is that thing loaded? No, having some of the magazine, it is not loaded if it's not cham bird the minute I pointed at you, like if I point a revolver at you and it winds up that I have an empty cylinder in there, and and uh, and I got an empty cylinder and he says that loaded, and I'm like, no, when I'm pointing at you, I feel that it's a different it's a completely different set of rules. Well, what's the definition for, like for what you can I was just just how you I was just looking up the So we have different aspects, right, So you can carry, you know, you have different methods of carry. So you can carry loaded round in the chamber on safe, load round the chamber, off save loaded, no round in the chamber. So you've got different ways that you carry in the military. So like you're on a post and like, well you can't carry with the chamber, but you can carry it loaded or you carry can't hear it with the magazine period. So I don't know. I think it's gonna depend on the definition. I don't think Montone Code has anything that deals with that. I was just looking it up. Well, states person, she was in Idaho. I would be surprised if they have a definition of a loaded firearms. There is something to challenge, man. But there is some law and I would have to look it up that deals with concealed carry because there there's a law that says basically you can like brandishing a firearm is defined, and I don't think they've ever defined whether or not you know what loaded means or if you're branising a firearm, if it matters if it's loaded or not. It's there's kind of that's the only thing I've ever seen broken. Now you're saying in the military they use the term loaded for both situations, right, loaded in the magazine or loaded in the chamber. Well, they basically color code them, so you can carry red or you can carry black, and black means this, red means this. So lord, it's too broad, right, It's just here's the definition for it. How chambered is a better? Yea makes sense. Yeah, loaded is too broad in the hunting context as well, because guy levels off, let's get let's go with the pump action shotgun. Guy levels off on him with a pump action shotgun, and he's got tube full, none in the chamber, and then someone later wants to be well, it wasn't really low. It could have been like I'd be like, if I was a lawyer, I would say, no, one's ever been killed by a bullet in the magazine. Yeah, there's not a If there's not a round in the chamber, that gun is not gonna kill you. You just said it's loaded or chambered. Right, it's loaded. If there's any it's one of the magazine, it's chambered. If there's one of the chamber, right, that's that's what I would say. Yeah, I'm good. I'm trying to jump into multiple perspective trying. I'm taking the perspective of someone having aimed at me, who would later be like, I don't want to parse hairs here. You loaded the aid of the damn thing at me, Like, let's stop it. I could stop it aimed, but I could also see the point where in the court, like if I was getting if I was in trouble for having done that to someone else, I could imagine myself arguing very vehemently that it was in fact not loaded. Yeah, but you say, the level of the threat is if if you have to do that, you know, pump a shotgun rather than pull a trigger. The level of threat is different than both those like, it wasn't loaded, It wasn't loaded. It was loaded, but wasn't chambers. I think you have to you have to lawyer that life is hanging on the definition of this word. Not like they're going to get capital. No, I'd like to think that there was a were really he was in the chamber and they're like waiting to to to give him the drip, pending on what we just what we decided. No, she was just curious more about the common usage in our in our circles. In our circle, it would be that it was not loaded. I'll say that it would be that there's not around in the chamber. It's not likely I would say to you, is that thing loaded? And you say no, I'm thinking, very well, have a magazine in it. But there's nothing changed. Man. I feel like, you know, this was twenty years ago I took hunter safety, but I feel like I learned learned it different. I think, I mean, this is in Washington. Maybe the rules are different, but I remember being told you cannot have a loaded gun in a car. And you know what, in that case, you're right. In that case, it can't have a magazine because act And so I'm so when when Yanni brought this up the other day, I'm like, well, I mean, like, if if you're coming back from hunting, you get pulled over, officer asks do you have a gun in the car? Yes? Or isn't loaded? You. You better be able to say no, and you better have the bullets around. That's a good point, right. We just got a letter from a woman who went her family was all going fishing. This is an Idaho story to her family's all going fishing and they go down to a park and the dad's fishing with the kids and she's reading her book. It's something or another happens where someone's got to leave and they give her the rod. And so she's just holding a rod on the grass, holding a rod, and someone comes up and checks her license. She doesn't have a license, so I'm not fishing. But I'm like, yes, I'm Ada Laike holding the rob. I didn't fish. And they give her a citation, but she argues that court gets thrown out. Really, yeah, I didn't fish. I had a rod at a lake because whatever her husband said, hold the rod, I think, and he came up. She and this is her claim, is that this individual came up the second she touched that rod. Got you. Oh, well, that's where you go back to the you know, one of the other things that moonlight as a reserve police officer, So I get to play with some of this on the other side and then one thing they talked about a lot when you're looking at how to enforce laws, because I mean, there's obviously ambiguity in a lot of areas, and as a legislator, I don't want there to be strict clarity where you're gonna go through and define everything down to every level, because then you're gonna have double the size of code. I would rather live in a state where people use common sense and say, hey, you know this, this lawsayes don't do this. So this is obviously what it means, so just don't do that. But that's where you talk about the spirit of the law versus a letter of the laws, like what is this law designed to do? And so as law enforcement, whether that's you know, fishing wildlife and you know, we had some hits with that, like tagged immediately upon kill. Well that got changed before moving it because the guy got a ticket and he's like, well, I haven't moved it. We're gutting it. But I didn't take it. He's like said, don't what is this actually accomplished? If I don't take this thing now versus five minutes from now, it doesn't do anything. The idea is that you can't move it around and transport it, because then if you get caught, you're like, oh, I was gonna tag it. It's like, but you didn't. So I think that's where you get to this. Like you said, is it unloaded? It's like everybody knows, like, hey, can you shoot me with this gun? Or is it taking apart and put in a bag. That's kind of the definition where if you're pointing it at me, it's like, well to have around in the chamber. So I think a lot of that comes down to interpretation of letter of the law or the spirit of the law. It's gonna have to figured out speaking a letter to the law boy that we wanted to hit on. And this is like a real I can already like if people want to stop listening, they can go ahead, they can go ahead, But I was about to drone on about some we're gonna try. Yeah, there's something we wanted because the reason the reason we have an obligation to talk about this is because we invited We invited it. We did from lawyers. I'm glad we did. Yeah. I heard from a lot of very very kind and knowledgeable people on this and really helped my understanding. It's good enough as a bunch of lawyers out there. Do you hear from any assholes? No, Sam got glowing reviews, good good Joe. Joe mentioned one that was that was a little like maybe distasteful. I'm like, I don't if it doesn't have anything substantive, I don't really need to see it. The lawyers that rode in and I read, I read a handful of him last night. Lawyers that wrote in, we're saying almost unanimously that Sam did a fair job of walking through the Supreme Court case Doctor, which people are probably sticking hearing about. I got a letter of correction from Ben Long who said that he in fact did not tell me not to talk about it. He said, just talk about it carefully. Um, but in this we had a thing. So I'm gonna try to bring people up to speed in some kind of efficient fashion. So I just want to touch on this correction, because this is the most detailed crack can we've ever done. If it's in fact, it can be counted as a correction. The Supreme Court is hearing a case. They already heard the case, they haven't decided on. It would be Um. It has to do with if a tribe. In this case, we're talking about the Crow tribe. The tribe, the Crow tribe has a treaty with the United States from the eight hundreds that allows them to hunt on their own reservation but also on unoccupied lands outside of their reservation. And there's been a lot of ambiguity about what unoccupied lands means. Does that mean any national forest, national park, BLM land, state land? Like, what does it mean? And it's people felt like this had been settled, but it's not settled, and that a member of the Crow tribe went out and kills some elk off of his reservation, he got in trouble with the game ward and his hunting companions pled guilty. He's saying, I'm not guilty because my treaty gives me the right to hunt on the Bighorn National Forest because it's unoccupied land. And so it goes to um it elevated up to where the Supreme Court is going to hear this and make some kind of decision, possibly to upset current understandings of whether or not the National Forest in Wyoming could be regarded as on occupied landfair Okay, In this we were talking about um. How this individual when he first gets in trouble for his poaching violation. He goes in front of a court and the court tells him, don't tell me about your don't tell me about your treaty rights. You're not allowed to argue that you were exercising treaty rights. And I was like, how can you prevent someone from making an art? Like, how can you prevent someone from like making their argument? And a bunch of lawyers, some lawyers rolled into say, like, what it is that makes it? That would be a situation where you're not allowed to give your to make the case you want to make in front of a judge. Yeah, And I think and we muddled our way through it, and I think we were pretty close. But uh, a lot of these these people wrote in with some some really helpful corrections just from my own understanding of this. And so how that worked was that Herrera's lawyers, prior to going to trial the would be the convicted poacher, yes or yes, before he stood trial, they they sought to have all charges dropped. They said, we have this treaty, need to drop all charges. He didn't do anything wrong. So that is is something called a motion in leimon a um. But and what that means is um, it's settling issues before a trial by either asking the court to pre approve the admissibility of something they planned to present evidence or an argument, or asking the court to exclude something that they don't want their opponent to present. So prior to the trial, his lawyer said, hey, you can't, you can't even try us for this. He's got a he's got this treaty to support it. But then the prosecution says, no, that has already been settled. It's already been decided in the Repsist decision that we mentioned from the late nineties, it's already been decided that the Crow Indians do not have a right to hunt on the Bighorn National Forest. Specifically, the Tent Circuit ruled on that that issue is settled. You cannot relitigate an issue that is settled, got you, and so so saying don't bring that all up again. Yeah, Rhodor decided that if you've got something else to say, go ahead and say it, but don't lay that on me. Yeah. So in court then, because he pled not guilty, he had to make a different argument, which he decided. They decided to go with I didn't know where he was, didn't realize that he'd crossed into Wyoming. And they're like, well, you're a game word and at the time you should have known you're guilty. But then after that they appealed and to you know, the Wyoming Appellate Court. They um upheld the prior decision. They appealed to the Wyoming Supreme Court, they declined it, and then they appealed to the United States Supreme Court. And you know, it's it's a little amazing because I've been reading a lot about this and the United Supate State Supreme Court has something like seven or eight thousand cases appealed to it every year, and they select like eight, and so it's it's a little it's a little interesting that they were able to get there. But one of the one of the things the Supreme Court is looking at, how many cases of about eight it's crazy in the same year because they're also here in the case about the guy who has the pistol permit in New York. He's got a pistol permit for his home that prohibits him from taking his pistol out of his home, and he's saying, why do my second amendment rights end at my doorstep. And they're hearing that case too. This is big year for hunters for in the Supreme Court. So so that so the Supreme Court is interested in this very thing, and so you know kind of um, they're interested in issue preclusion um where where it's it's a it's you know, it's this judicial doctrine that they're they're not really sure if if that was the right decision to not allow him to relitigate a settled issue. And and as we know the problem with this is that there's another Supreme Court the mill Locks versus Minnesota decision that kind of shook the underpinnings of the repsist decision. It didn't overturn it, but it it uh, it undermined it. So they're they're looking they're looking at this, this this idea of whether you can relitigate something if if you will. There's been holes poked into it. Like like an example I was laying out as let's say you lived in some situation where they said no one like we've decided that it is never justifiable to kill someone in self defense. So then you kill someone in self defense and you go up a murder trial, and you're like, but dude, we need to revisit the idea of whether it's okay to kill someone's self defense. Like, I'm not done talking about that. And this is kind of a little bit of what's it is it is? And um, so if we covered that, there was one more email that I found was very interesting and provides a, you know, a good perspective on on this case and perhaps where it will go. Another thing I learned is that this this decision is likely to be issued in June. We were going like, oh, well, I heard it was this summer, Maybe it be later, but it's the Supreme Court is going to go in on recess after that, so they usually issue a lot of their their rulings prior to going on recess. Thought from it, Yeah, I'm kind of obsessed with the Horari Wyoming case. This is the one you're talking about right here. UM somewhat, So I was. I was thinking about this because treaty lack came up. So in UM I sent the Judiciary Committee and we had the hearing for the CSK T water compact. Um my second um two sessions ago, I guess, and it's huge and what they argued was that the tribe has that's confederated right. So the confederation Cutiny tribe, which is the Flathead basically area. So they had a ruling where they they redid the water compact. So they were going through and the water is a huge issue in Montone Age, you guys, I'm sure are aware. And what they said is that the tribe had primary water rights or we're trying to establish primary water rights even back to you know, some of these claims are in the eighteen hundreds that people filed for their water rights, and they're saying, well, the treaty was like eighteen I don't remember the year off top of my head, but it's it was prior. The treaty was signed prior to these water rights, so they're saying these should be a higher priority. And the language that they used in the treaty to make this claim was that the treaty granted the tribal members the right to hunt and fish in common with the population. So what they're saying is, well, you have the right to go fishing on any land that anybody else can go fishing on. And it, you know, it gets into the nuances of what does that mean exactly? But the argument that they made was, if you have the right to hunt and fish on a stream over in like and we're talking like a big timber area. So this is how far out the water rights went. They said, if you have a right to hunt and fish, then you have a right to to mandate that there's an appropriate amount of water to protect the fisheries in those areas. So that irrigators who might have a priority date that's you know, in the eight hundreds for their water rights, then can be argued that well, that the treaty prohibits them from using water that could then affect the industream flows, you know, two miles away, because they have the right to fish there, and if you lower the water to where it's no longer um beneficial to the fisheries, than you're obsurfing that. And so that was the argument that they made, and the treaty went through, and it was compounded with the fact that the Montana Constitution says the waters of Montana are owned by the people of Montana, and so the treaty the way that it's written is since the treaty or the Water Compact is actually states that the water is held in trust by the federal government, so it's not actually owned directly by the tribes. It's owned through the federal government. So then it's like, wait a second, our constitution says that we have that we own our water. How can the federal government then own our water? So it was a huge issue, and you know, there's a lot of nuances, but it's kind of the same argument. It's like, well, what is the tribal what is the treaty actually grant you? Does it grant you the right to have this? And so that's a that's a great lead in. It's a huge, huge, Yeah, it's a huge issue and people are vehement on both sides of it. So yeah, and so this other one I wanted to talk about is exactly that. It's like what did the treaty and and and this guy uh he he says, there's a recent recent law graduate and just took the bar last week, but he did study Indian law and wanted to explain something that they felt like we missed. And so he explains that the idea of canons of construction, they're basically rules that like underpin laws and understanding of of laws such that you know later when they're brought up again. You can understand, you know, understand where where they're coming from. And so the the the cannonate of construction for federal Indian law comes from Supreme Court in eighteen thirty Supreme Court decision eighteen thirty two. So this is even prior to that that treaty being signed. But there's something there's a quote, a concurring opinion from Justice McLean that says, the language used in treaties with the Indians should never be construed to their prejudice. How the words of the treaty were understood by this unlettered people, rather than their critical meaning, should form the rule of construction. So they like the understanding. So it's it's it's what they thought it meant at the time. What the natives thought it meant at the time is what matters, not what our modern understanding of that word or phrase means. So this gets at the So we were just talking about one issue in the Supreme Court of issue preclusion, and this is the other issue that they're discussing as unoccupied lands. And so this guy is suggesting this is interesting too because we had brought up the context of the time previously as far as where there are animals, and at that time, there were no animals on those lands, So in that context what was understood at the time. And we like, well, that's not part of it because there's there's no al interesting that they would have thrown that in. But this of like you can hunt unoccupied lands as long as there's any game there, because it's like, why even add that in? Yeah, and and Wyoming argues explicitly that it was under they they think it was understood in these treaty arrangements that the game was going away, that it would soon be extirpated, and in fact it was. And and so they they saw that all these things as temporary arrangements, that that the the this was this is a transitional phase as the natives, as the crow, transitioned to an agrarian society. So Wyoming is like, well, yeah, we saw they Yeah, this treaty was signed, but you can hunt until they're gone. Yeah, every everybody, everybody assumed that the land surrounding would become occupied quickly as states were established and settlers moved in, and you can hunt all this area as long as they're still game because it's going away fast. And in fact Elk were extirpated from the Big Horn Mountains shortly after the signature of that tree, and were brought back through very rigorous restocking efforts. I think another thing that the warrants pointing out is tribal members are obviously allowed to hunt um the same as any other resident nonresidents set law, So this is all. It's not like they can't hunt. It would be that they can hunt under the same guidelines that any other state resident or nonresident would come in and hunt. But this has to do with like an overlay, which is just specific tribal hunting rights specific the tribal members, yes, and and and the specific like tribal treaty hunting. It it's it's an important distinction for people to understand, because yes, natives can apply and draw these tags in the Big Horn Mountains in the in this area, but the tribal treaty hunting, which which occurs in many states, often exists on a different plane than state managed you know, normal hunting. It's it's it's often often in seasons are often not existent, bag limits are different. It's it's more like it's more like Alaska subsistence hunting than it than it fits within our you know, neat little program of of state managed wildlife. So are you good on clearing points? I think so we're gonna put it the rest. Let's put the rest. And in June you're gonna come on and tell us what happened, if it's a big deal or not. Yeah, yeah, I mean and and my my views continue to evolved. I said, I think I put it as a three or four last time, that it's going to change the world as we know it. Yeah, And and I think I might be more of a solid for even a five or six after some of these conversations I've had in the last couple of weeks. This could have major ramifications for game management. I I wouldn't say major, but I would say it could significant ramifications. All right, man, interesting, thank you? Anything to add? Joannie? I don't got the turkey calls in your pocket. Yeah, I'm I'm getting ready. We're lessing a month away. Ben and I are counting down. We're counting down April second. Now where we're going on the Rio grand, the Rio grand A, the Rio grand Turky. Okay, Seth, thanks for coming down, Manure. We're gonna have We're gonna probably have to call on you again for corrections and whatnot. I'll be around all right and thanks every How about some closing thoughts? Oh you want to hit the closer? I don't necessarily have one, but he presents the opportunity opportunities to closers. I know, but I want one for this video. Uh, Benny got a new concluders. That's a lot of pressure. You canna film me or film Steve while I conclude sure there's an important one on the Rio Grande because I forgot about that that overlaps with our Austin, Texas live podcast dates. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Doesn't overlap we go from there to to Austin for the live show. Well it's one plane ticket, I guess. Yeah. What's the point. That's your concluder. I think that's just something to mention we're doing a big, fancy, super fun live podcast in Austin, Texas. Tickets for sale yet, Yep, they are, They are for sale. My concluider is as we were talking about shooting, I was thinking about all the movies I watched as a kid and all the bullshit shots that were made that were clearly not you know, I was thinking of Legends of the Falling some dove. I was thinking of Tombstone, Tombstone. I was thinking of all these movies quickly, all these like seminal movies at shape TOI I think about the West, where all there was at least a or a number of bullshit shots in each one of those. What I always hated was that somebody has a revolver and they shoot like eighteen times. There's a mel Gives a movie, The Patriot, where the red coat the officer, he has a muzzle loaded flint lock pistol and the dude is riding a horse like two yards down this creek and he just pulls up and boom, and the dude falls off his horse. And like, yeah, you ever watched all the buster scrugs or Yeah, that's almost a parody of good shooting. But that's a parody of like what's been done in the world in the realm of like Western shooting. Yeah, it's like a satire. But that's my conclude. Oh I got a concluder. Um, We've talked over the years a lot of a lot about a documentary that I did with zero point zero production, and um, you can watch it now. Go to stars in the sky film dot com. Make sure I get that right, stars in the sky film dot com. And then it's available for uh streaming and download on video. You can rent it, you can buy it, so check it out. Full length feature film available now. How was that for concluding, Yanni? Good job you wanta turn that came around and hit your own concluder stas, Thanks for coming, We appreciate my pleasure. Has got another way. He's raising his hand. No, he doesn't know, he's just raising his phone. Thanks everyone,

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