00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely boge bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything, Yanny, I gotta hit you with a marriage advice question. All right, I'm not looking for marriage twice, but dude was asking you know, You're like, explain your your one to ten deal that I started, I that I appropriated. Oh I stole it. I think from Dr Wayne Dwyer Dire Dwyer. It's like a self help kind of author, your self help man. My dad is so he's He's passed along a lot of books to me, Dire. Why am I has it slipping my mind? Nobody can help me out here, Wayne Dire, I know, Dwayne you recently passed away. That's Dwight Dwight. Yeah, no relation anyways, Uh it was for him. I guess you could. Um Yeah, Wayne Dyer, I was right. It's like a life hack kind of a thing. Almost can you can you start over and not say that word? But that's popular these days and people know what I'm saying. That's what I was hoping. We could do it without it, But I can do it anyways. I've been doing it for I don't know ten years, but it's a way to um get through uh small petty arguments that maybe at the time don't seem smaller petty with your spouse or loved one, to get through him efficiently and move on, which he then realized that it was probably a petty argument, and um, it's better just to have it behind you. But the way you do it is if you find yourself in this situation where you're arguing about how that's the example would be how to load the dish washer, and you're arguing about it, and someone realized this, man, it would be a great time to execute the one to tend um what would you call it, like device to get through this argument to basically you just say, all right, how important it is to you? And at that moment both people throw out a number one to ten, one being I don't get ship at all, but I load the dishwaher like that I think about it. I really don't care. Yeah, ten being like this is so important to me that if we don't load the dishwasher right, I'm gonna be up tonight in three o'clock in the morning thinking about it. And so everybody throws a number out and whoever has the higher number, you just go, Okay, it's obviously more important to you than it is to me. Let's do it your way and you move on. I found that it works because I've once I asked myself the question realized I was arguing about twos and threes. And I also had to work to my advantage where I was adamant about something and my wife threw a two or three or whatever, and I was like, well, you know what, for me, it's like a nine, and I won and she backed out and she's never brought it up again. But you have to be fair. You can't always be throwing out eights and nines. Well, this dude that rolled in, he shot the biggest meal deer of his life with his little boy. Okay, with his little boy, and he's like, yeah, I'm putting it right in the living room with my other ones. And she's like, uh, okay, he already had some up and he's gonna add it. There's a whole long story about what's there not there and all that, but just the gist of it is he wants it there. She's like, uh um. So they do the trick that they that you taught them, and she throws an eleven. But then he's like, hey, so and so he's throwing eleven back. So at that point you're just in a regular fight. Yeah, I just know. Yeah, that's gloves off. Obviously, just go back to like sleeping on the couch and you can combine this with your hand holding trick. Yeah, we haven't talked about that on the podcast. I feel like I'm just getting a lot of marriage advice out of out of this whole deal. This is Miles Nulty talking. Not this, No, this is Miles Nulti talking. Not that I'm aware of. But I have been called Nick my entire life because yeah, dude, I'm telling you what, man, Prince of Tides the book, He's not in the book, he's in the movie. Of course, there's some good hunting effiicient stuff in Prince of Tides, man. I mean, the the Nicknolty thing was fine in the eighties, but then when you had the whole d u I thing that was posted all over you know, social media and the Internet, that that didn't go so well. Pull a cork. I didn't know that. Yeah, he got arrested in his h It was it was a big story. It was. It was a while ago. But Nick Nolty used to be cool. He's not anymore. My kids are watching a movie the air night on a movie night. Uh. And he was voicing a dog, voicing a like old wise dog. Uh. Where were we? Oh, there's an irregular fight. But the trick, this is my dad's trick when when one is fighting with their spouse. He likes to do it. And he would do this, Yeah, he likes to do it where you hold hands. You have to hold hands and fight, which changes the fight. It does reach across the table and hold hands and then be like I'm hanging up that son of a bitch and deer right or however you're gonna go about it. The thing we were talking there day, Kal and Joanni, you were in on this about whether it's okay or not okay to name you're shooting irons or your bow or whatever. And I was saying, I don't, but I had my halib. It rod was called the widow Maker, and but I didn't name it that, but it just came with the name which I used. The man that named it dubbed at the widow Maker, and this guy looked it up and he's saying, you know, there's various things, are there? Some people refer to a particular type of vary. Hense Bong hit as a widow maker. He found there's a disturbing sexual practice called the widow maker, which I'm not privy due. But he says, what he thinks you're getting at. I was saying, it means that you're gonna catch I thought it meant you're gonna catch Maile Hallibate thereby widowing yeah, And I can see I can there other interpretations. I know that sting. So you're you're yeah. He gets into this deal. Uh, you gotta introduce yourself. We're gonna get to you real big. But he said, what it means is you're gonna like the rod so much that you're it will effectively widow your spouse because you'll be fishing so often. UM. Got an email from a guy. This is interesting. He was zapped on the ankle as a kid. He was in Custer State Park in South Dakota, got zapped on the ankle by a prairie rattlesnake. UM. Within seconds, he was temporarily paralyzed and the weirdest thing. He says, he was left with nothing but his sense of hearing whoa whoa, yea almost lost his life. And there's this whole other story about the the dude that helped him out, and in the way that he felt that the state part sort of didn't didn't didn't seem to want the news to get out. I don't know, but but I thought it was an interesting story. UM got some We got hate mail. I never I don't talk a whole lot about hate man. We got an interesting hate mail from a guy who was piste, but he's pissed by handful things. He's pissed that we wear forty dollar underwear, which I don't understand because I don't know how much I I know, like I didn't know how much my underwear cost. My underwear costs nine dollars. I'm not to look mine up. I have what's called a very casile which is a problem in your scroll, and it feels a lot better if I wear I don't wear tidy whities that wear black tidy Whitey's three for twenty seven dollars. Chet referring to the first light Boxers yeaheal problem. So he's pinning on me. If I did I would just tell him because I'm gonna get some more of the things that he's mad about. But that's one of the things he's mad about. Expensive underwear. Yeah, I think you're unfortunately you're just looking at those as underwear. They functioned just fine a shorts on the occasion. Um, I've liked them alone many times. And uh, you know, for plane travel all the way up through riding a horse and mountain biking and all that stuff. Um, you know, you don't stink so bad. Yeah, And you can wear the same things for six seven days and and I do regularly. So but that's his great. Yeah, here's the weird thing about this dude. He he says he's he's drinking beer at c Tech and acknowledges that he's probably had too many. How much does an airport beer? So I don't get it Like That's that's where this guy's letter becomes really funny, because another main gripe of his is that he doesn't feel that non residents should be able to apply for He's mad that we talk about and have friends who and that we apply for nonresident big game tax, especially for like limited draw stuff. He thinks that this is bad because a lot of people can't afford that stuff and you apparently he feels it only a taxpayer, like you should have to pay taxes in a state, two hunting the state if it's for limited draw stuff. But again he's talking about like the working man. But again you're buying too many airport beers. I always feel them with people. It's like if you honestly can't afford if you're alive in America today and have a vehicle in the house, I could come in and analyze your budget and find the money for you to do an out of state tag. I have often said, like myself personally, there's a lot of things that I write off as unaffordable, but if I looked at my yearly beer budget, the money is more than likely right there. You know, you're honest could drink it for a year. I was conversing with his wife about this, Well, I haven't yet, how do you? I was, actually, this is yeah, I'm in the midst he haven't done it yet. That's right, Uh, next year in can say that, But it's your intention right now to take a year off of booze. It is as I look to get back into it. He's looking to get out of it, and his wife was observing to me, um, just the observation of of not having to buy all that beer, and she said, this kid can do whatever. This guy like think about it actually like impacts the bottom line. Yeah, well boxers and I P A s are not cheap. So and then he was also mad. Yeah, he talks about how I have a d h D and I mean narcissist. UM guy wrote in something funny. He was saying that we were talking about button box, like do button bucks ever shed their buttons? And and a lot of people wrote it in fact, like send pictures and stuff. This guy tells this funny story where he him and his old man killed the button buck once and it shed it's buttons in their vehicle as they're handling it, so he saves them. He hears us talk on the podcast about whether button bucks ever shed the hardened piece, goes to get his to take a photo of him, can't find him, asked his wife, have you seen my two little things? She says, I didn't what the hell those were? And I threw him out. So he's bummed about that. UM emails coming in lately about Janice not getting the respect he deserves and not being properly appreciated. And someone wrote in the best I can tell, this is a poem about honest. Have you seen this? Does it say he's not getting respect from no? I feel like I assume it's like, I don't know, he feels the honest doesn't get the appreciation he deserves. In fact, the guy that wrote the big hate mail about me having a d h D and stuffering from narcissism, he also said something like you gotta have all those people around you to save you from bears. So he's not again he's referring to he's referring to be honest. Uh Now, I hold the creation of Sam McGhee and the shooting of Dan McGrew as sort of like epinnacle of American poetry. Me too, Like there's no better poem ever been written. So with that as the here here's I'll read a little bit. Oh, it's long, more imperturbable than a stoic philosopher, more patient than job as, brave as a lion, a sharp eyed as a mountain eagle. Women at dorm, critters fear him in action? How like an angel? Yeah? Like this in action? How how oh in appreciation, In apprehension, how like a god? He goes on. Another guy wrote in talking about how bad I feel lucky just to be sitting next to But then another guy writes in about how bad you honest? Is it math? Well, the poem didn't say anthing about maskills, I mean math, how bad? Remember were talking about in Ohio if you shoot a buck, and it's like how Ohio rates the penalties for poaching, and that if you shoot a trophy class animal, they want to make it a lot worse for you than if you shot a forkey and they have this formula. Do you still have the formula on you? I'd be able to find it quickly. You made it. You you use it. You made a mistake in a term, in a term you used in a man and a teacher, a calculus teacher wrote in about it. You said, okay, so you take the gross score. Here's the formula. You already have it. Yeah, I just realized to have in front of me. You take the gross Boone and Crockett's score of an animal, and just real quick, remind people how you determine the like what are the measurements when you when we talk about this U there's a whole bunch of measurements, but it's basically the lengths of both main beams depending on how many places you can get it. There's mass measurements that go around the main beams, and then the length of the times as well as the inside spread. It wouldn't be mass. Yeah, yeah, circumference measurements and in the length of all the times. You had this all up, and there's a couple different systems for doing this, right. Is there total overlap between Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young or is there a difference the scoring systems. I'm pretty sure it's total. I think it's the same. Yeah, I think it's as far as methodology of But then the sci is a different is My brother is a proponent of. He wants to establish a system which might be in use somewhere. He thinks that there's only one measurement. It should only be water displacement. I've heard that. I've got a friend in Idaho is a really serious shed hunter, and he's found the sheds off the same crazy Buck for like the last five years straight, both sides. It's awesome. He's just got a stack of them. But it wouldn't score anything on either Sei or Boone and Crockett because it's just they look like moose anglers that stick forward. It's just so massive and palmated. But it's not long and it's not wide. But he was telling me about the water displacement and how it would do very well. Be like, that's his view. His perspective is if it's big, it's just big. Dip it in the water. How much water does it displace? And there you see who's the biggest that if he drew a giant club, you could potentially anyhow. Uh So you score up the deer and then you take one off the score. So let's say he's a real whopper, and I think they only start at one. So in that case, you acts a hundred, so you square then times that by a buck sixty five and you create the and that's what the finest. So we're talking about this guy killed this big whopper white tail, and the fine was twenty seven thousand dollars. You have a thousand bucks for the add ons. Uh you increduckly, I didn't even catch this. You described it as exponential, that it grows exponentially. Apparently, Well so I used the term exponential when something is being squared. It's not exponential. That function is quadratic quad radical. So he had his uh calculus kids make a calculator for us so we could like type in any number and to do it. And he said he also made a calculator that if you use Janice's method, if you use the honest method and got away from a quadratic system and went to an exponential system, uh, a one buck would okay. He he made an exponential system and and rated it so that the one buck scores the same on the quadratic and the exponential. And then he ran, what would happen if you killed a real whopper, a two fifty inch white tail, if it was exponential, Hi, you would have a one point three million dollars five. With the quadratic system, your two white tail would get you a thirty seven thousand dollar fine. How much familiarity, uh, you guys have with North Dakota? Got some kN from North Dakota. It's about it. You don't hunt it? No hunted, damn close. I'm hunted looking over into it. I got Northern Pike on bluegilld jigs over there one time that was pretty exciting, just throwing out nothing but a jig head and popping it back and I was catching like hammer handle. Uh. There's a bill there right now in the North Dakota Senate State Senate to make it that I'm approached the wrong way right now in North Dakota, you a landowner needs to actually post his land no trespassing. Like if you're in North Dakota and you see private land that isn't posted, you can go on it. And I guess oftentimes there will be like large properties and someone might post along the roads or whatever, but you can oftentimes find um landowners who don't bother to post it, and it's just understood that you can hunt it or in people that try to post it don't do the thorough enough job, I guess, and people find, you know, find place where it didn't he wasn't a posted according to law, and then therefore you're allowed to access it. And there's a bill in the North Dakota Senate to change the law so that becomes an automatically posted state, meaning the landowner has no obligation like tell you you can't go on it. Just understood if it's private, you can't go on it without permission. I can see both sides of that one. Uh um. Another interesting thing from a guy. He was hunting in Oregon and got a bad hit on a bowl. He said he took a longish, longish shot. At what point does the shot become longish? I suppose if you start question that would be very long if you start questioning. I don't know if he felt those longest in hindsight, or if he felt those longish when he was going to pull layer back. He takes longest shot, uses the wrong pin, it's high, squaring the shoulder, gets a couple of inches of penetration. Uh. On a whim. He goes on to an Oregon An Oregon hunter Facebook page and describes his uh insert broadhead combo. He says, Hey, if anyone hunting this year we're to encounter this, let me know. Ten days later, guy sends him a photo telling him he was six inches high of his broad head and this bowl. This guy shot this bull twelve miles due north of where he hit it in a different unit. Wow, it crossed? Is it Grand Rond or no? Wrong? It is ron ron ron across the Grand Round River twelve miles away ten days later, scared it pretty bad, or he's just all doing elk type stuff, or he's like, I am out of here. Man on the upper end of that's just that giant plateau be kind of easy walking, but twelve miles in between the plateaus is pretty rugged. Yeah. Up on top top by like the big the big gorge there is amazing Yeah, like down uh Joseph Canyon and all that stuff is un unbelievable good for more. Lots of people rolled in. We're talking about can you really slip on banana peels? Lots of people rolled in about slipping on banana peels, first hand accounts of people slipping on banana peals. One guy feels it's such a problem that banana peles should be banned. He says, He's like, if I'll say this, like if lawn dart still are illegal, you should not be allowed to have banana peels. That's really interesting because if you get an upgrade in uh, your flying service of choice, typically the snack basket includes bananas, So I mean, but lower class people are not permitted to have bananas. They might be irresponsible with the bananas are the most eaten fruit in the world. We were doing kids trivia last night. Back in two thousand seventeen, Dude Massachusetts, an angler Massachusetts catches a four hundred pound blue fin tuna fifteen days after the season ends. It's like a ten thollar fish. Decides to keep the fish, but it's hard to like hide a four pound tuna. The words spreads around the boat, Doc, But this fella is running around with a tuna. At some point he gets scared and he can't get it in his truck, but he ties it to his truck and drags it out into the woods. Okay, he gets a federal fine of fifteen thousand dollars for killing this tuna. Then just now the in the in uh, you know, putting Alton the wounds. His local municipality doubles around and hits him for another thousand and fines for littering and disposing of waste from a vehicle. They're like, and so you didn't learn your lesson, we will now find you an additional one dollars for charges related to you dragging a blue fin tuna out into the woods. That is very interesting. I think that's totally fine for I'm not criticizing I think that fine should be higher considering the value of those fish and that fishery and the waste that should be k for a white tail. And here you have like here you have like a fairly written species, like a fairly depleted species. Yeah, and it wasn't if we we've fold around that article about that bluefin the first bluefin in the season for a million bucks. Over a million bucks. Yes, just made the Japanese fish markets because they had the right at content anything. Yeah, and it was the first absolute dude got a million for a blue fin, well over a million if I remember correct. Yeah, and this guy like owns a like a chain of sushi restaurants over there and is known to be a big guy with fat wallet. I believe it was the story. But sure that wasn't the first one. No go for over a million, No, no ship, And I knew they were like extremely valuable. But I want to know blue fin tuna goes for three million at first twenty nineteen sale at Tokyo market, how many pounds with the fish? Because I know that they'll go like I was talking to a guy that sold some blue fins over the year and over the years, and you take it down right, away and they pull a plug out of that thing, and I don't know what they do, but they're very interested in fat and I'm sure a host of other color fat and all that. And you either got gold or you don't have gold. Yeah, and he says it's hard to tell, like he couldn't tell. What are they? Damn sure? No. I was just watching that documentary Guo Dreams of Sushi. Very good. But oh man, it was amazing to see them go to the fish market and the guy's like, you know, to an aside, he's like, I wish there was some actual tuna here, and there's like a warehouse full of these big, giant, beautiful looking tuna and there's just it was all garbage to him. Yeah, and it's amazing. Cut him down to where they can like stack them like cordwould, right, um, the cores Andani used that learned that the cores. Yeah, this guy was this blue fin tune that they found out in the woods was missing. They had its head cut where to leave the collar on. Yeah, the core. I mean when you just I'm dying to know what was going through the psychological burden on this man from where he's like Nope, screw it, I'm hauling into the woods. I'm keeping it on the boat. I'm not turning it back or was it like bleeding from the gills And he was just like, man, why would I throw this thing back to the sharks? Well, that's the difference between dumping it out. That's like you call in fish and game or you just caught the line once you realize what you got. Yeah, but I just wonder if there's something that made him be like, Okay, screw kick the doors open and haul this thing on. I'm keeping it because then and it's not his boat apparently, because I'm sure they would have dinged his It could have taken his damn boat. I don't know what. I don't know if they did that to poach those bear cubs. Man, they got their boat taken away, and I think the truck they used to pull the boat. Yes, is that state by state though, whether or not they can confiscate gear for poaching, I don't know. I don't I don't mean don't know, but yeah, that guy had to have just been a mess. Then, like all that compounds by the time you get back to the dock and you're like, oh, man, I'll just let that damn fish go. Yeah, and then to waste it. Yeah. Oh that's sacrilegious. Man, that's weird. That's kind of the weird part of them. Who you know, you have the ones had to hang out with the guy like is at some point he even abandoned the idea that he's just gonna stake it out and put it in a bunch of freezers. Yeah, and that's why I'm like, make that jack that fine up even further. I mean, if you're if you're wrestling, he's like, he's clearly wrestling with this idea and yet chooses to do a series of worse and worse actions. It's like, you had a lot of opportunities to right this wrong. I get it. But we used to break all kinds of rules and we were little. Yeah, I don't know if he's little. I was gonna say, I doubt this is a kid we're talking about. I don't think this is like a sixteen year old yesterday fishing when the sheriff pulled up. All right, we're fishing. The county sheriff pulls up, and I'm able to Now now I'll being where I'm at now in life. I'm able to walk up to the window and lean on the window and be like, how do you boys? In the old days, if we weren't doing something wrong at the moment, we were nervous about what we had just been doing wrong last week, pitchfork and salmon out from behind some beaver dam or oh, A little part of me was still like what, I like, where's my lights? Where's what am I do? I have barbs on my hooks, so that doesn't matter. Here to be drinking. Yeah, yeah, when you like you see a copy turn the radio down. Yeah, I'm like old enough now where I'm just like, what's up? Guy? Well, they came up and I haven't done I haven't done anything wrong even lately. The thing that threw me off was like, we're gonna get out and talk to you boy. Yeah, off too. I'm like, you know what, get out and talk to me because I haven't done anything bad in a long time. Yeah, I'm pretty I haven't found any salmon in the damp drainage ditch, saying shot up with a shotgun. Hypothetically. I grabbed my license yesterday morning in preparation for going out on the ice and actually opened it up, double checked the expiration date. Yeah, I got it. We're we're coming up on the expiration here. Because when the first year I lived in Montana, I had a game board and I was fishing downtown Missoula at the Hollywood Holding right in front of double Tree. I saw a game Ward and watching me with binoculars. Hollywood hole. Yeah, because everybody's looking at you game Ward and watching me. We been from with binoculars, like peeking around the building. And I was like, what the what's what's he doing? And I was like, oh, you know, I left my fishing bag in the truck. That's where my license is. I reeled up when I saw him do that, walked right up to him and said, hey, saw you looking at me? Figure you want to check my license? Uh, it's it's in my bag in the car. I needed to grab that bag because I needed to change flies. Anyway. He's like, oh, great, no problem, I walk walk with you, walks over there with me. I grabbed my bag, give him the license. We're just shooting the ship, being real friendly and everything, and he hands me the license back and as I reached for it, he pulls it back and goes, oh, wait, this is this expired last week and writes me a hundred and thirty dollar ticket my first year, first year living in Montana. And I was like, I was like, I was like, there's a there's a there's a fly shop two blocks from here. I will literally dog there and renew my license. He's like, sorry, flexibility here, Yeah, because he was giving you some flexibility for not having your license on you. Yeah, he'd already like yeah, but but but I approached him too, so I felt I felt like, I don't know. I was also yeah, absolutely he was in the right there and yeah, I can see it both ways, man, Yeah, but I was, I was just I was just maybe he really annoyed by it. I wouldn't play it in court. Did you win? They reduced it to the minimum fine, which was sixty do that was worth your time? But to circle back to the guy with the tuna, I just have to I hope he at least took the belly meat out of that thing, because that that bluefin belly meat is like the most just like the buffalo. I could find out because there's a picture of them. They had to call in a record. They called in a record lifted up by the tail. The picture of it sitting on had to call it Bob's towing to come down and get that tuned carcass. They brought it to a garden. They brought it to a local farm to fertilize it. Old school did day he did? They say, if he knew that the quota was filled when he when he put it in the boat. I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't remember reading that. I think you want to bring up something, man, like what was I going to bring up? We're talking about. I don't feel nervous about by law enforcement people anymore. Which is good. It's in the good shotgunning salmon bad kind and well when they make a bunch of wrong turns, here's the thing is, if it makes so many wrong turns that they're in some farmers drainage ditch, we would take liberties with them, because you're like, well, you're gonna like run into another salmon and spawn on the gravel at this point, like you're up Bob weirs and drainage, you know, like you've you know, I don't know if the other salmon want you in this? In the throwing in with him? Here comment did the man know that the quota was filled. I feel like you lose any opportunity for argument when you're stashing ship in the woods, no doubt by the time. Oh no, I'm just wondering what you know again his Yeah, I mean too, I'm dying. Yeah, federal. Did I say federal? Federal? Yeah? I mean, for all we know, we could be really churching this up. And the guys like, listen, boys, I had a lot of Budweiser's those couple of days. You wish I could think of what I was gonna talk about. It was like a tied to this deal, tied to this deal, and I was going to talk about it, see the a D h D deal. That like narcissistic a d D deal. Now, if I forgot something that was gonna talk about how great I was, that would back that dude up. I wasn't. I wasn't gonna be like, oh, I don't know, I was gonna say, is I've, you know, very strapping? Um uh, one last thing I want to bring up, and we're gonna talk about what we're here to talk about. We got couple of three things. Um. This guy is talking about how he used to hunt scrolls and his grandpa and his grandpa they hunt scrolls with dogs, and when it in his grandpa kept a kit with him which was a fire making kit and a coffee can, a tin coffee can. So when the squirrel would hole up in a hollow tree, Grandpa would get a fire burned in his coffee can and then set the coffee can in there to thereby smoke the squirrel out. And if I remember right, like, I feel like when we were little kids, we would you know, those smoke bombs, you get it? Fourth of July. I feel like we do something similar with that, like sticks in my head. But you're saying one time he's out there with grandpa and Grandpa forgets his can, gets a fire, ripping no can and uh starts himself with fortrest fire. Yeez, did you get that squirst fire? Heard of it today? I hunted the web today with old bench made and chose the wrong answer when I was gonna just kick out my coals or should I use the rest of my water to douse my fire. It's like a choice I had to make and benchmates hunt the web realistic game, and Uh, I decided just to shuffle the coal out because I was hunting in the Pacific Northwest and say, nothing can fire here, And sure enough I walk away and next thing I know, game over, forest fire giant. So I gotta go to clarify. He didn't Okay, he didn't start a forest fire. He burnt the whole damn tree down. But then the fire did spread, okay, on the lines of Pacific Northwest and fires and bad decision making. Our good buddy Jeff Lander all uh primitive outfitting his buddies that are floating floating a moose river um for years and years and years. One of them dies, they bury his ashes underneath this prominent tree on the bank of the river. Um. One of these years, they'd invite Jeff to come down with them um and they they this tree is prominent because they've called in a bunch of moose in this same spot and it's nice and you know, breaks all that BC drizzle and uh, they're kind of having a peaceful moment. They're and they're they're calling moose and Jeff has everybody's sandwiches and tinfoil and he starts a little fire there at the base of the tree. Swiches heat the sandwiches, they eat their lunch, move on down the river. Somebody makes the comment of like, oh, you're sure that fires out. The next day, Jeff has burned down the sacred tree, so to speak, with the ashes with the ashes under it, because he decided to shuffle the coals instead of because he's he's in a really wet place and it's just nothing matters, doesn't doesn't burn by that. Yeah, that's pretty sad. Well, it kind of gives that sacred spot even better. Story does one more? One more quickie? Now, one more quickie? No, um seth if you said anything yet? Just about the the cops getting another vehicle? Oh yeah, uh did you tell people about how about your ill fated one hunt of a lifetime? Oh? Um? Drew a bison tag in Montana this year for Gardner and talk about that. How did you feel about three areas and three areas West Yellowstone there's Gardener and then there's the absorka back country unit. It's like West Entrance, North Entrance and then the back country unit. And um, were you excited to draw that? Tex? Super excited. I was excited. Everyone was excited. Gave them all kinds federal bullets. Was gonna um the first year I put in for it and drew it. UM had big plans. We talk about what needs to happen. So the bison spend most of their life in Yellowstone part and in the wintertime, when the weather gets real nasty, they migrate out of the park to find better grass. Um. You know, there's they migrate out because there's some some animals stay in the park. This is from what I gather from talking with game wardens and stuff. They stay in the park. Some animals stay in the park. Um, but there's too much pressure for you know, the park to handle that many bikes and over the winter, so they move back. And they're they're predisposed of roman and UM. So they usually push out of the park. You know, the season closes February. By that time, they're usually you know, having all sorts of trouble with them and gardener and um getting into people's backyards and destroying stuff. Well, this year, the weather or it was pretty mild, not much snow down there, and they didn't decided to leave the park. Yeah, we're up in that neck of the woods yesterday and it was like no snow. Yeah, so my bison tag that I don't know if I say it's once in a lifetime tag because you definitely draw it again. Yeah, but that means different things. There's like once in a lifetime, like the expression yeah, and then there are once in a life once. So once in a lifetime Montana for this tag would be like an expression right, meaning like it's not it's not like an Idaho moose tag. Right, that's once literally in a lifetime. If you are a successful yes, really yeah that before that's right, draw the tag. Got tags your opportunity. If you fill the tag, that is your one star. What's the weight period? Apologies to the guy who thinks you should only be able to hunt in the state where you live, Like you can't, let go to your own les and then go out do you a little hunt with your uncle? That's like no way, Um how many years if you don't, I want to say, it's seven so long? Wait so they never Yeah. When I talked to a game warden, no state now he used the term state hunters because there are tribal hunters, like a lot of the tribes exercise treaty rights or exercise right no, come and shoot some. I went down there one time, uh and watched the nez purse shoot five of them. I think our buddy ed Garcia, I think it was just last fall, last winter, he was down there. He's got a cabin somewhere down there, was driving through and saw a bunch of hunters getting after it, and there was so many and they were having like problems like getting all the meat out and everything, and there's gut piles everywhere. And he went down there and he harvested ribs and hearts and livers, all kinds of stuff so much he's like, oh, you want a heart, buffalo heart on the way way home and he stopped buying dropping. I've heard of people doing that down there in the gut piles. Well, there's none of that this year. Yeah, not one tag holder, not one state tagle. I guess a handful of tribal hunters got some early. Not one state tag holder. Yeah, it's just not the year. He said numbers were low in the park. Yeah, because they'll fluctuate, you know, like three thousand seven numbers were low in the park, which means the pressure for grazing isn't there. So did you gotta wait seven years now to try again? I don't know. I'm not sure I used to put in for it, then I quit putting in for it just because it just gets a little crazy. But I think I'm gonna start again. I'm not gonna let that scare me off. No, I'm gonna put in for it again. But the snow dance wasn't the year for it. Nonresident where to snag that tag out for underneath? You don't tell that guy and that don't tell the guy who's all drunk at the sea tag bar on the Wyoming's Like I blew all my money on nine dollar beers, bro, I can't do that hunt Wyoming side that opportunity to pursue that buffalo for a bull. I think it is like over three grand now, Yeah, they tacked their prices up last year. Oh the tag if you draw the tag is three grand. Yeah. As a non resident, now you're resident price. Uh. There's typically a pretty vast discrepancy between your resident and nonresident prices. When anybody like to venture a guess as to why, because they don't pay taxes in the state. Because states raise a held lot of money. Uh, and they fund a large portion of their fishing game operations through the sale of non resident grossly inflated price to tags maybe, and all those resident folks, of which all of a sort of beneficiary of our tag bryces seldom get raised. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a subsidy. Yeah, you hunt, you hunt deer for thirty bucks, and another guy hunts deer for six hundred bucks, and therein you can fund a lot of wildlife work. Yes, yeah, I do feel for this guy, though in the fact that I have definitely been the guy doing a lot of bitching about all the nonresident folks out of state license plates and stuff. And oh yeah, I feel it. I feel it. I would, I would, you know what. Sure, Montana f w P raised something on the order of twenty one million dollars last year on nonresident license fees. It was like the second highest in the country, I believe. You know what happens in the trapping world. There's like a reciprocity thing in the trapping world where, for instance, um, if a lot of states because because fur bears are more like a commodity, management like a commodity, a lot of states will prohibit nonresident fur trappers from trapping in their state. And there's a reciprocity system where, um, if you live in a no go state. If you live in a if you're if you're like a trapper from a state where your state doesn't allow non residents to trap beaver, other states will reciprocate and not allow you. So, for instance, in Montana, you cannot trap fur bears. No, a nonresident cannot trap fur bears in Montana. So a Montana person is not allowed to go over into Wyoming, Idaho, wherever and trap someone from another state. Yeah, your state won't let our people come. We're not gonna let your people come. You get into a little tip for tat. A guy wrote in like how come how come people don't talk like why is Washington not a popular hunting state for non residents? Like one of the things that we start. Yeah, there's a bunch of reasons. Um, they're extremely conservative of tag allocation. Uh, it's it's expensive just to apply and a turn of points in Washington and now it's three thirty dollars just for the application fee for each one. So for like my moose coach sheep, I guys just don't do anymore because be a thousand bucks just down the drain, nonrefundable, nonrefundable. So some ste hundred and thirty dollar application fee. Some states will really stick it to you, like to even get in is gonna cost you. Alaska's smart, and I should say you're smart. Their strategy is to sucker you in the applications. Not bad. We got to buy a base license and you get paid his fees and then you draw and you get all excited and a zap you hard on the tag. But then you get people who draw and can't afford the tag, and it probably screws you up on allocations a little bit. So some states want to be like is he good for it or not? Sending all your money, demonstrate that you're good for it, so that when we give you the thing, we get our money and it doesn't like you can wait and then later decide to buy it or not buy it, and then we have a better sense of who's like ready to roll. Yeah, Wyoming. Um, you know mountain goat is a species and the bison as well, where you can't accrue points for those, um, But that's all the cash up front, just like if you were to put in for any of the other species and not and go for like the thin chance that you might get drawn, um without the points you throw all your all your cash up front. But yeah, that's two thousand bucks for a goat. If you're putting in for a by his sending a bowl bison too, you're at like five grand in Wyoming. Yeah, what did your take cost you? Bucks? It's one thousand, two undred fifty for non rays. Once you a good pivot I do, speaking Wyoming, you like that? That's what we learned to call it. We just call it a segue of it. Someone's saying it's like a pivot Larry Keene, Larry Keene pivots uh Larry Bird for that matter. Yeah, yeah, nice? Um, real quick, real quick issue too, real quick? Is you know you guys are all for me? With our friend Ben long Very when we talked about what we're gonna talk about, when I touched on at one time touched on what we're gonna talk about, and he emailed me warning me not to talk about So I don't want to talk about it because it scared me off. So Sam Londran is gonna talk about it because I was too intimidated. I was too intimidated to talk about it because this is like this is like the forbidden subject. Well that's not very narcissistic of you. Oh, if what would I do? What would have? It will be a better and more narciss You know who narcissist was, Yeah, Narcissah. You know what his story was. He found that little looking pond, right, and what happened to him? Would just stare at his reflection in a pond, But something bad happened to him eventually, right, and he drowned in the pond or something like that. He died by by by being so obsessed with his own reflection that was his downfall. Talk about how Narcissis died. What's his name, Narcissus, Narcissus? Can you talk about how he died, how he passed away? Resting r I p rip. Yeah, he found a little pond with a clear surface, and he liked to look at his reflection and to be clear, this is Greek mythology. Yeah, because he's sitting there looking so much, and he didn't want to disturb that perfect surface. He got thirsty. Oh, I didn't disturb his didn't want to disturb that perfect reflection. It's a painful death, especially the painting. He looks like he's got his face about six inches away from the water. That's a good story. And we're talking about not long ago about the Greeks. Is there's a um uh, there's this principle it's um xenia z e n i A. I think has to do with the guest host bond. Like it's like somehow related to the relationship of a flower and its pollinator. I've heard of this. I was gonna name one of my daughters. Only had one named after my mother, but if I had more, I wanted to name one zena um. But yeah, it has to do with the guest host bond, like meaning like it's you host someone. Like let's say, uh, let's say my father hosted your father in his home, you would owe me still, like it's that strong the guest host bond is that strong? What culture does that drive from? I learned it when we were reading the Ilian in the Odyssey, and that because it was Troy you had to do with like you remember how the dude that you remember how Killes kills Hector. Achilles kills Hector and drags his body all over to damn place and Hector's dad pri Um maybe remember Hector's dad. Hector's dad comes to beg Achilles let me have my boy's body back and stopped disgracing his body. And it's like all these other things that went on with how he guilted him into it, but part of it had to do with with achilles father. Um was once the guest of like pri ums father, and so he was somehow through this. Some some people like there's an explanation that because of that, he's like, Okay, I'll give you your boy's body back, and I'll stop dragging it behind my chariot and making a total mess out of it. Zena uh whelming in the in the thing that one dacent speak about. It's there's a Supreme Court case there. I want to explain to people, the damn Supreme Court. The Supreme Court Court case. Well, now you got me all nervous about about opening my mouth about it, and you know which I've definitely felt throughout the reporting on this. Do you want to know how he You want to know the metaphor he used. I used it the other night. He said it's a deep cold river and you will get in over your waiters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it certainly felt that way. But it's also been a it's been a fascinating experience diving deep into this. But what we're talking about is the Supreme Court case horrariv. E. Wyoming, which was heard by the United States Supreme Court on January eight. And they haven't decided yet. No, they haven't decided yet. Most folks anticipate a ruling coming out this summer or this fall. But you don't really know what the Supreme Court. This isn't funny how it takes along. Yeah, it takes up a lot of research issues, I'm guessing. Yeah. And the alleged crime here happened, uh five years ago? Lay it out? Laid out all right? What happened? Sam's now getting he's up to his n You ordered some hate mail to me yesterday about this, So now I'm all nervous because Sam, right, Sam wrights. Well, let's clarify. Sam writes an article about this, which can be found at the mediator dot com. What's the article called. It's called her Air of Yoming inside the elk hunting case before the Supreme Court. Uh. And he's already gotten a hate mail, ye yep. But you know, I mean, it's more people airing their biases towards us um than than hate per se. Yeah, this was like, to be fair to the one I'm talking about, it wasn't hate mail. It was like being like, hey, man, here's some stuff that you might not know. I learned. I learned a couple of things I shouldn't. That was a bad you know what? Me saying that it was a shitty thing to say because it was not hate mail. It was like being like, hey, I think you missed. You're off the mark. He was a total dick about it, but he also he was, he was, he was, He wasn't. No. He started by saying he was sorely disappointed, which is I feel like, I don't know, I feel like that's my mom, Like, well, I'm not I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It's amazing that people something so are really disappointed really easily. We got a piece of hate mail one time because because just out to half, we use the term like to instead of using something to be like you're running it, you're like running whatever tripod and a guy took the time to write about how bad that is, so that people are like ready to be not happy. Yeah, they're they're, they're, they're they're they're trying to find any small flaw within it. And you know, I worked on this for three weeks, and I'm sure there are are elements missing, but I you know, obviously, my my goal as a journalist here was to put forward the most complete, inaccurate version I could, And I tried to write something that would walk the line of like explaining this without you know, pissing off people based on their preconceived notions of it. So I tried to play fair. It's it's it's highly racially charged. So let's let's back up a little bit and talk about what happened. So there's this guy, Cleaven Herrera, who used to be a game warden for the Crow Tribe of southeastern Montana UM and with two fronts, with a couple of friends, Uh, they followed a herd of elk off of the Crow reservation across the state line into Wyoming the Big Horn National Forest, where they killed three elk that they packed out. Uh. The game warden who ultimately found who ultimately tracked down this case and um brought them to to justice, if you will, found a fourth bowl that was untouched. But they all claimed that that was that must have been from something else, or that he's lying or something like that. UM, and how how did the Is it worth getting into how the warden tracked down. I think it is worth getting into, uh because I found that to be I found that to be a fascinating element of this um. So this this game, this warden who testified before the before the court in Wyoming, UM, and I read through all of that. So he was finding a lot of poaching cases in this area. He referenced a friend of his who's a shed hunter spending a bunch of time up there, and this guy alone, who's not law enforcement, reported twelve elk poaching cases in this area that year. Partly, Buscher like like, there's one whereas a big bull um with missing just its head and its backstraps. Um, And yeah, I've got a I've got a quote, um it sounds like good hunt zone. Yeah yeah, And he's like, yeah, he's getting on. Then this warden said, I was getting pretty desperate. I mean, you know, the public and trust of game warden to enforce the game laws. The way the vehicles were coming going, it was obvious to me there was a possibility it was members of the Crow tribe who response from some of this um. But the way he actually the way he actually got to these particular guys, and it sounds like they're you know, there's probably different groups of people in the Crow tribe is large with a large reservation. But the way you got to these particular people, and Herrera in particular, was Herrera sent an email to Wyoming Fishing Game asking to discuss poaching incidents in this very area, and that was forwarded onto this game warden, Dustin Sharma, who then reached back out to Herrera and said, heck, yeah, I love to talk about that. We're having We're getting her asses kicked out there, basically, So they met up UH on a back road near the state line in this area and and talked about what what their two departments could do to collaborate UH and to try to say all this problem. But he walked away with kind of a fishy feeling about that meeting. So that was he, he Herrera, who whose name carries the Supreme Court case. Yes, he reached out. I didn't realize this even like alright, I realized, I didn't realize the implication of it. Yeah, he initiated contact, he did. I could I could pull up that email if you if you wanted to see it and even reading it and talking with you about I missed that fact. Yeah, he sent that email. I knew there's a conversation, but I don't know that that's how it was initiated. Yeah, and he voluntarily went to meet up with Dustin Sharma at the state line. They went up and looked at the carcass of a spike bowl that had been poached in that area, but Shorma walked away feeling uncomfortable with the meeting. Um. Here's here's another quote from his testimony. He was interested in knowing who I suspected was responsible for these poaching incidents. He was curious as to the capabilities of our forensic laboratory and Laramie. On the way home, I was kind of, don't know, maybe excited that I'd be able to solve some of these cases. But by the same token, it bothered me some of the conversations that we had. I started thinking like I was maybe being taken advantage of I guess. Um. So he got home and googled Claven Herrera and found his Facebook, but also found his postings on a brag board website called monster mule E's dot com is it fair to call that a bragboard. That's what a lot of other folks have called it. But I, yeah, you know, I haven't really just dude swapping info man whatever. We no, no, no, that's part within those forms. A lot of times they'll be sections where you swap info. But then there's also like a thread or an arizone where all it is It's like, I wasn't trying to preference. That's just kind of shorthand yeah, no, no, I got you know what I mean. But yeah, I just would hate to take like a thing like that where people are you know, sharing like legitimate infolture, like to look it's like like to show pictures of I don't know, were we all like to do that? And I guess Instagram has become a bragboard, brag board or forum website. But uh found a post there that Herrera had made called Goodyear on the Crow Reservation, and there was photos of these three elk in question, also a pronghorn and a mule deer that other folks he knew had killed. Um but Sharma saw looked closely at the background of the photos and felt like they looked like they were in Wyoming. He felt like he recognized the topography, the vegetation. UM. Obviously he knows this area very well UH and talked about that at length in his testimony about how familiar he is with the landscape. UM. He said, just based on the limited topography and vegetation I could see from the photographs, I kind of had a hunch where it was at. But I wanted to confer with some people who knew the area a lot better than I did. So we talked to some folks. He talked to that guy who reported all the all the poaching incidents UM. And then this is many months later after the snow had cleared because they weren't able to get up into that into that area in May. So this UH, the that shooting and the conversation between Sharma and Herrara happened in January and May Uh Shurma went in there with a wildlife investigator and print outs of these photos and they basically walked to the kill sites and found all the carcasses. He talked a lot about UM finding like the frozen ball of of like cud if you will, UM that apparently doesn't doesn't get taken by by predators when they're when they scavenge interrupt you real quick. Go ahead, talk about that seth with your special buffalo tag that you didn't fill. Um. So this is fascinating and they send you all this information when draws tagging, one of the rules that they want you to follow is if you kill one, you have to cut open the stomach. You cut open the stomach and spread the contents out, because think about it, when mug has been hunting in the area. Later other people go, you have this big bloated stomach, I mean, grizzlies and self eventually eat it. But then you got like that. You know, it just winds up. So they want you to cut it because when you cut it and emptied out, it's like a really small thing. I feel like it's aesthetics. There's no other explanation. Yeah, it's gonna be aesthetics because everything else is gonna mop up all the soft tissue, ravens, whatever gets into it quick. Yeah, I mean a predator or a scavenger rather is gonna come tear that stomach. Oh bears, It just leaves it looking like someone dumped out a bag of long clipping. Yeah exactly. But I mean there's no other explanation besides, like just the way it looks, because there is a lot of non hunting recreator overlap, and that's like the size of a wheelbar. Yeah, that stomach is like you couldn't even fit it in most wheelbear. That's also a sensitive topic around there, shooting buffalo, and there are a lot of folks who are up in arms about that. And the whole organization built around a whole organization, so I can kind of understand why they want to worry about the optics of that. Ye, all right, go on. They did some cut analysis. They but they were able to take photos that matched the photo print outs they had brought with them, um by identifying specific like unique knots on trees and burn marks and branch configurations and and and took GPS way points at the same time finding all these all these kill sites were um they said, within the space of about a football field, and they were all a mile away from the Montana border. Um so he and they they so they found those three butchered elk um, which in Herrera's defense, sounds like they were well, they were well taken care of. They'd taken all the meat. But they did find a fourth bowl that had been untouched and so yes, but it's main so that so it's it's it's unclear uh, whether that was from Herrera or his group or somebody else, or if it died of natural causes. They couldn't tell what that bold died from. I don't remember exactly. Um. There, there's there's a lot of chatter about this. I think it's something we should discuss, like ch That's why I'm letting you say, because you've looked into it more. I've heard a lot of chatter and I heard some like surprising things that that I don't know if they're true or not. Yeah, And you know, I've had very little conversation with Claven Herrera, but I have tried to get in touch with him several times. And I asked him specifically about that. Um. That was the first thing I asked him, in fact, because it's a you know, it's a big accusation to level at a hunter and um. But I also figured that was something that would you know, maybe get him to respond to me instead of a softball question. Uh. And he told me, he, um, he wouldn't even dignify it with a response. That's how like you know, he felt very highly insulted by the accusation. UM. But anyway, Uh, that's what the game warden from Wyoming said they found. UM. So they put together this evidence UM, the GPS way points, the photographic UM matches, and he confronted Herrera on the cro reservation UM in September and cited him for two misdemeanors, obviously the hunting out of season without a license, but also being accessory to other people doing so. Uh. For the two folks they a UM, they possessed or they seized the heads of the elk. All three elk had already been eaten by that point. Um. And Uh, those three folks went to court. Uh they were pressured very hard by the State of Wyoming Uh to plead guilty, to plead out. The state of Wyoming was seeking some thirty thousand dollars in fines and was gonna, you know, come after them really hard with like, you know, removal of hunting privileges and certain things. The two other guys UM who's names are escaping me right now, Uh did plead guilty UM for a lighter fine, yes, Uh, And somewhere in the neighborhood of eight thousand UM and probation and not hunting in Wyoming for three years UM. A lot of a lot of this stuff is Uh. I feel like people who know this case are just taking notes about what I'm getting wrong here, and I'd like to, Uh, I'd like to, you know, kind of address that briefly by saying that a lot of these case files are sealed because it's an active, active litigation before the Supreme Court. Nobody wants to talk about this. Like the guy who sent us that that pissy note um yesterday. Uh, he was privy to seal the information. He was very he was privy to seal the information, and uh ended his his letter um with a long disclaimer about how we could not reproduce this, we could not use his name, that it was not the official opinion of anybody or anything. Uh. And that's the That's what I've run up against a lot in this court case, um, because you know what happened. Yeah, And they tell me some other part of it, and I would say, well, man, how where can I go see that? And they'd say, you can't. It's not part of public so it's hard to Yeah, And and what I'm what I'm talking about here this testimony what I extracted by by skimming through two hundred and seventy pages of court transcription from the from the testimony. But anyway, um, the the court in Wyoming um did A issued a pre trial decision saying that these men could not use a treaty right argument within this within this case. So they and you don't need to explain to you. But I just don't understand the court system enough to understand that. I don't either, Steve and so, and it seems it's it seems odd. It seems odd to me. Let you understood it better. I do. I do too. And I imagine this podcast will get a lot of people reaching out and maybe somebody we can actually quote about it. Um And and I loved dr talk to anybody about this. And I'm sorry if I pissed anybody off. I want to point out I think you're doing a great job. Okay, thanks, I appreciate that you're trying really hard, because here's the thing. It's not like we're airing someone's dirty laundry. This is being heard by the Supreme Court. Yeah, and as we'll get to this could is something that could have significant I don't want to say major could have significant tangible ramifications. It could and it couldn't. You couldn't, it couldn't. So so if you hit some points here, Sam, where you like, during your investigation here tracking down UM leads, have you hit some points where you're like, I'm just this is pointless to go forward. Yes, So I wanted to walk away from this so badly. I I got to the point where I was like, man, I really wish I hadn't opened my mouth about this story, because it got to it got to the point where it was it was very difficult to proceed and to really know, to be able to parse it because everybody, everybody's got vested interest here and there. There's so many different, strange, like competing UH sympathies. Most of the mainstream news coverage you see on here is about this is oh nasty, Wyoming is just being mean to those natives that they promised this too, and now they're reneging on these treaty rights, all these hundreds this hundred fifty years later. UM. But then on the other side of it, UH, you know is some some pretty uh I feel like overblown UM rhetoric about what would happen UH I think both extremes absolutely, and so that that's what I was seeking to accomplish with this story, is to is to make something that people could read all the way through that you know, I was aware of those extremes but didn't buy into them. And I think, honestly, most of the fee back I've been getting about this was Hunters saying Hunters were angry at us for not condemning her era M and I that's just not my role as a journalist. Like, I kept myself out of this as much as I possibly could. Obviously you can't completely eliminate bias, but I wasn't willing to. I wasn't willing to say that you know he but you haven't. But you haven't even gotten to the part that the court cares about. Yeah, okay, so yeah, the part that the court cares all circumspects. But yeah, well yeah, so so that's how we got caught. The went went to trial, it was found guilty. The the jury agreed with the prosecution. That uh, and so he argued because he couldn't make the treaty right argument in court, he argued that he didn't know he was in Wyoming, and that is the kind of return to what side tractice, Yeah, like some legal professional needs to explain to me how you can how in a court they can it can be dictated to you. What I don't get it. Like let's say you kill someone and you're like, you're like, but those self defense bro or I'm gonna act like those self defense whatever, and they say you can't say that. I don't understand that. But I don't understand Okay, Okay, So I think I think I think part of this in gosh, I wish, I wish I understood this center, but part of it is is an issue, a thing called issue preclusion. So I think I think that's what perhaps where where this pre trial is decision derives from, because Wyoming is saying that because this issue has already been litigated in in high court decisions that I'm about to discuss, because this issue has already been been litigated, you can't relitigate that issue, yes, So so what go ahead? He's saying he didn't know he was in the state of Wyoming, but he wasn't like the list of charges brought against him didn't include hunting without a license. Yeah, I did, it did he would have been legal he would have been, it wouldn't have been Wyoming's issue. And the Crow reservation, I don't believe the Crow tribe issues deer or elk hunting licenses because it's treated as a as an inalienable right. You're allowed to go shoot deer and elk as a Crow tribe member on the reservation kind of whenever you want. Collateral estopple is your issue preclusion? Yeah, issue preclusion is is by and large what's being argued, um by Wyoming in the Supreme Court. That's correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't there also something that hinges upon the definition of occupied land? Yes, oh yeah, but that we haven't got that. But but you know, now I'm feeling it on how you cannot like let's say, let's say we've live in some fictitious world in which um, some Supreme Court decide hides that that self defense is not a justifiable self defense isn't justifiable for murder. So then later I'm like, I get murdered. I'm like, well, I'm gonna say that it was self defense, and they say, no, you're not, because it's been decided that that isn't a defense. So I could see some version go on. Yeah, I'm feeling better now. Yeah. So Wyoming is pointing to two separate court cases. Um in eighteen ninety six Supreme Court ruling called Ward v. Racehorse, I'll back up because you're not you're not there yet. I'm you're right, You're tight, You're you're right, You're right. He's convicted and appeals Yes, and uh. The appeal obviously has made it to the United States Supreme Court. And what is his what is his appeal? His appeal to forbidden appeal? Correct. His appeal is that the eighteen sixty eight second Treaty of Fort Laramie included Lane Whidge that the Crow tribe when the Crow tribe exceeded some thirty million acres of Montana, Wyoming, North and South Dakota to the United States and were allotted there I think eight million acre reservation, they retained the right to hunt on the unoccupied lands of the United States, so long as game may be found there. On some wishy washy words. Yeah, yeah, but no, not words I wishy washy word right, what is it unclaimed or unoccupied? Unoccupied, unoccupied lands of the United States, so long as game may be found there on. So the state of Wyoming became a state shortly after that in eight and in eight six the Shoshoni Bannock tribe UM tried to assert a similar hunting right with similar language, I think the same language actually unoccupied lands of the United States UM, asserting off reservation tribal hunting rights in Wyoming. And the Supreme Court said that, Um, when the state of Wyoming entered the Union, they did so on the same footing as all other states, the equal footing doctrine. That's that's pretty ubiquitous, UM. And that that equal footing includes sovereignty over the natural resources within that state. So word vy Racehorse said that the the Shoshone Bannocks tribal hunting rights were extinguished by Wyoming's statehood, like they became not unoccupied. Yes, that that land became occupied when Wyoming became a state. It was it was unoccupied territory prior to that, then it became a state. So that's that's your definition right there of what is occupied. Yes, and that's being tested, yes, and and that's and there's there's another layer to that, UM. There was another Uh, there's another decision from the Tenth Circuit Court in so just shy of A hundred years later UM in a case called Crow Tribe of Indians Versus Repsis, which is a very similar case to this, it was a Crow tribal member who killed an elk out of season without a license in the Big Horn National Forest. That did not go to the Supreme Court UH. That ended at the at the Tent Circuit court. But the Tent Circuit asserted that the creation of the Big Horn National Forest resulted in the occupation of the land. The Big Horn National Forest was designated in seven it's one of the oldest protected areas UM in the country. So there's those two those two cases. But shortly thereafter after the Repsist decision UH, the Supreme Court heard a case called Minnesota the mill Locks Band of Chipwah Indians UM and the curt The Court maintained in that decision that the Millocks tribe main did maintain hunting and fishing rights on the lands they had seated under a similar treaty agreement UM. But they did not reverse either the Racehorse or the Repsist decision. So now there's these three conflicting precedents that the Supreme Court is is is wrestling with yeah, because I'd have to challenge, like, is the U S territory of Guam technically unoccupied because it's not incorporated as a state, well, and you could show up and hunt a tribal member, go hunt Guam. The oral arguments in the Supreme Court, Uh, yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. The Supreme Court UM wrestled with this in the in the oral oral arguments, and they're I mean they're they're throwing jokes back and forth about like how the hell do we decide what unoccupied land is? They asked, let's see, three lawyers, attorneys spoke before the Supreme Court UM, one representing her Era, one representing the United States, who is intervening on behalf of Herrera in this case, so they're siding with the Crow tribe, and then the the attorney for Wyoming. Uh. And they asked all of them, what, how do how do we what's what's unoccupied land? How do we decide that? I asked the wildlife professional about this. UM. I don't want to tell who because I didn't talked to about how I was going to use this perspective, but I was asking, like when when people were drawing up these treaties. I was expressing some surprise about using language it would be so confounding to later generations, and he said that confounding gets it. He said that that probably wasn't the word that mattered to them because at the time when they were doing this, because I think the assumption was that the game would be exhausted. Yes, yes, they didn't view it wasn't normal. Was picturing that we'd still have the resources, and it was like they were watching it vanish as long as they're go ahead, Well, it was exhausted. And and that's and that's an interesting argument that hasn't been made, but has been suggested to me that elk were extirpated from the Big Horn Mountains. So so the tree language not only says the unoccupied lance part, but so long as game may be found there on. So the state of Wyoming also could make the argument that because at one point game could not be found there on in the Big Horn National Forest in the state of Wyoming brought them back as well as bringing elk back to the Crow Reservation, that you know that the treaty right right was extinguished because of that. That's not the argument they made. But it's when they perhaps could have that. Yeah, and and and I've I've heard that too, that uh, the negotiators, if you will, for the United States at the time, we're thinking that that, well, we're we're we're damn far down the road of getting rid of all the bison and elk and everything, and they're probably not gonna last a whole lot longer. So what what what value validity does this have? This, this truck, this right will will go away just because they won't have anything left to shoot not too long. It seems that the money is betting on Wyoming losing. Like we don't know how much they'll lose or how bad they'll lose, but the money seems to be betting on that Wyoming will lose. Yes, Yes, that's that's a that's my if I to read the tea leaves, and there's two, there's two competing wisdoms here, one competing one one wisdom. One idea is that this will mean that the whole system that we've built around assessing wildlife populations, making a determination about harvestable quotas and being able to enforce that, like, all of that's gone. Now. If I'm just saying that that the two look radical competing with that that is the given the radicals here, Yeah, the radical sides and and and we'll getting on what might be the thing. But like you, you wouldn't need to you, you don't need to look far to find someone who could say, well, what this could mean was is that tribal members can go out onto any national forest, any blm land. I've even heard national park and shoot whatever you want, whenever you want, whenever you want unoccupied land. And it will make land and will make wildlife management very difficult because we won't have enforcement systems in quotas and and bag limits and seasons and all that. That's that's one thing. Another thing is that, um, this is nothing new. Other states have been in this situation. There's states that work in cooperation, most states, and it wasn't and it wasn't wildlife armageddon, and there's no reason to think that it will be here. Those are like right. I haven't been able to confirm this, but I've heard a couple of times that Wyoming is the only state that does not allow any form of off reservation treaty hunting every other apparently, I cannot confirm this but I have heard that every other state in the West there exists some form. I mean, we were just talking about it. In the case of the Gardener bison hunt that's off reservation treaty hunting. Yeah, and there I think and and man I could be off. But in there, I feel like it just has to be that the tribe actually, like the tribe doing the bison hunting, but they're doing it in cooperation. They're like, there's like quote as they went place, it's like historic use patterns. So it can't be that like that. I don't think that that someone from um, like a seminole. Perhaps, I don't know, I could be wrong with us. I don't think a seminole could come out and make a claim that they're gonna shoot buffalo on the border of Also National Park. I think it has to be a group that has some sort of historic youth handing. Now the Nez Purse, who I went there. As we all know, when the yes net Purse were during the Netz perse War, Um they traveled through Yellowstone, so it was like they had an awareness of the area they were able to navigate through there. They had historically gone out and hunted on the plains because like our our people, if they didn't know about it and didn't know how to travel through there, they wouldn't have gone through there in eighteen seventy seven. So we had a historic there was a historic use. Yes, and in many tribes have petitioned based on historic use and in treaty language successfully and in very very recently too. Um. Two uh, restore those those hunting rights based on historic use. Um. So what didn't we hit? What didn't we hit? Well, yeah, okay, so we we didn't. We didn't quite we didn't quite wrap that wrap that up about what what would happen. So yeah, there's people who are saying, well, yes, if the Supreme Court, you know, rules in favor of Herrera, then all of a sudden, there will be tribal members in every national forest in the West, shooting whatever they want, whenever they want. I'd be I'd be extreme. I would be that that's just not gonna happen. Well, the matter is that's not gonna happen. You don't know because there could be some huge sweeping like now and then the court will have like some huge sweeping thing that causes a lot of Yes, but that there overturned a lot. The doctrine of conservation necessity is in everyone's minds here, and that is a a well established UM precedent. That's that basically prevents courts from issuing decisions that would have drastic negative consequences for wildlife populations. This is this is this is something that dates back a long ways and UM the Supreme Court is is highly aware of The Supreme Court is unlikely to completely solve this issue. Uh They they typically, I mean the Supreme Court deals and high minded ideals, if you will, so they what I would guess they would do is issue a test for occupancy. Two. I imagine they will say that there are unoccupied lands in Wyoming still. But what that means that they may remand to a lower quarter or they may issue some form like what what I think about? Here is another case I'm familiar with, you know, the current litigation surrounding the Clean Water Act. Uh So that the the issue there is like what what what are connected waterways? Like? What are you allowed to pollute? What are you not allowed to pollute? And UM, what they're basing a lot of the revision of that Clean Water Act rulemaking is on UM significant nexus or is it is it navigable or you know how water flows from one place to the other. That's what the Supreme Court likes to do, is like, here's a test. This is how you go down and you go figure it out. And so they'll probably remand to the tent circuit or whoever it is um based on this, and I've heard some I've heard some suggestions that it's hundred and fifty yards from a road and two hundred yards from a campground in in a national forest and on on public land or so so they they may issue some some like these are unoccupied lands, but the conservation, the doctrine of conservation necessity will likely lead them or the lower court they were manned to too effectively force Wyoming and the Crow tribe to come to the table and and say, okay, you do have the Crow tribal members do have this right to hunt these unoccupied lands, whatever they may be, and put it to Wyoming to accommodate them. Yeah, exactly, Wyoming will have to accommodate them. And and in the story I have an example of how how that um went down with a tribe in Colorado. UM. And so you know, one guy I talked to UH for this for this story he gets. He gives the example of UM, so say there's hundred ELK tags for that unit currently. He if he's looking at the crystal ball or t leaves or whatever, he's saying, like, you know currently, and you know these these are numbers out of thin air. But he's like, so if you currently have eighty licenses, of those licenses going to residents and twenty going to non residents, after whatever may happen, if they rule in favor of Herrera, then you'd have sixty of those licenses going to residents, ten going to non residents, in like thirty going to crow tribe members. So that that's that's how that's how significant reduction of available tags. Yeah, yeah, you know that's what you just brought up. Something that's interesting with the guy that this idea of, like should you be able to do nonresident hunting is um Most states also put a cap. Most states limit like an available resource for only ten percent of the resources can go to non residents. Yeah, and Wyoming does all sorts of crazy stuff like that, like you can't hunt in the wilderness areas and nonresident that without not a guide, which I believe is unconstitutional. But I asked the governor there about that. He didn't want to discuss it. I would imagine that's unfair rule. How do you justify that? He goes, I don't need to justify it to you. I spent out it was it was a joking. He didn't really. I mean it was we're formally joking around, uh my buddies over there on the Idaho side. That That's kind of what they always come back to is like, listen, you may have more pressure in your area, but the number of nonresident hunters doesn't change. It's like, for the last X amount of years it's been this much, it's capped. Yeah, It's like it's it's never above ten percent. And he's like, yeah, I don't doubt that you're seeing more pressure in year zone. Well, Colorado Archery ELK, it is not capped. There's over the counter tags all over damn state. Oh really that's cap That's interesting because he feels like you will see Brody. Brody is predicting that you will see the end of that. Yeah, it will become capped. I I thought that they I guess, not right. Not happening to move at that direction. But they're doing some stuff this year. But they didn't. They didn't cap like the OTC tags. They didn't do any Idaho. Every non resident purchase goes against that quota. So it doesn't matter if you're buying all the way up in the Panhandle, uh, you know, unit one or all the way on the complete opposite side of Hell's Canyon. Um, it all comes out of a nonresident pool, can I I know I got us off on that, but I get us back. What are we missing? Sam? I feel like we've covered it, so we gotta wait now, we gotta we gotta wait. But yeah, you know, I mean too if you had to one to tenant, one to tenant on this is like one to tenant, um Like this is like, oh my god, this is gonna change life as we know it. Being a ten one will be that there's no not even a blip. You'll never really you could live your whole life and never knew this happened. Um, where are you putting it? Putting into? Yeah it is. I wish you'd ask me that an hour ago, and I could have thought about a little bit. But I'd say a three or four for three or four, Yeah, I mean and and so and and everybody like with with this piece of everybody wanted to put like big implications in the in the headline and and major changes coming. And I just I was uncomfortable with that because I because because of the content doctrine of conservation necessity, we don't have unregulated hunting in the United States by and large. You know this will this will ultimately fit into some form of game management system. Will people in Wyoming lose opportunity? That's that's possible. I don't think that's yeah, quite possible. Um, But uh, you know something something that um Herrera's lawyer keeps harping on whenever I've talked to her is that elk are over objective in that unit and that Wyoming apparently can't get rid of enough elk tags. And so what's interesting about this, and we talked about this, and you talked about it too, is that none of this matters to the court. The Supreme Court doesn't care like about the elk objective. They don't care if you took all the meat, none of the meat. It doesn't matter if you shot a hundred of them. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you tortured them they're talking about ceremonials, talking about like three or four words. They're talking about issue preclusion and unoccupied lands. They're not that's all they're making Like was this ethical? And it's like there, it's like they're looking at something very clean. All of the stuff we're getting into, all the preluders like Germane. It's like, is someone who's living under this treaty that was made with the federal government, what is the definition of a term that was using your treaty? Yeah, and so and so that whole story I took I took people through is like and that that's what everybody points to, is I. It's like, oh man, he just he's felt so guilty. He felt he really feels like poaching. Even someone on staff was like, while he was poaching, let's just say it was poaching. That's not, that's not, that's not, that's not what's a foot here that that's not what the Supreme Court does. More than likely, I would expect that whatever the Supreme Court decides, there will be another ruling by a lower court case that will decide if he was poaching or not, and he will gets slapped with a fine for that. You don't think so. No, if he wins, he's not going to get a If he wins the Supreme Court case, he's not going to get fined by the state. Right, Well, you know who knows. Let's let' let's let's revisit this after Yeah, let's bring a lawyer in here. But yeah, so I I really, I really think that you know, it will affect hunters in Wyoming, UM by some measure, But I don't think it blows up the North America in the auto of wildlife conservation like some people are asserting. That's your prediction, that's my prediction. We'll return to it. Okay, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm hooked now. I can't help but continue to follow this. So, uh, it's it's gonna be. It's gonna be quite a while until this is resolved, so we'll have plenty more opportunities. I don't have a good segue for what's coming. Net. Do you have a pivot? No? Well, yeah, I think a pivot that's just like you just start talking about something different, right, No, pivot's kind of like a segue. You could just jump. I like how you're wearing a jump my dad. My dad calls My dad calls it changing gears without hitting it, without stepping on the clutch. I'm not clutching, and he loves to do that. He just changes changes topics on the drop of the happen. I forgot to clutch there. Sorry, because the theme, the theme here, one of the themes here is um uh we're talking about here, I'm working this out. One of the themes that we're talking about. We're talking with writers and uh and writing. We're talking about writing. They can be found at the meat Eator dot com. And I'm pivoting too, Miles Nick Nolton's kid, Miles, you never sent me any good you know, birthday, yes, or anything. That's what I was always hoping. Yeah, I mean he could have afforded some some good ship. I never got anything. You gotta do a paternity claim, Like, well, how else would I have the same name? Uh, lay out your deal. So the story that we're talking about comes from I mean this kind of kicked around in my head when I was ice fishing not too long ago, and we were we were having a good day and we were pulling a whole lot of perch through the ice and just kind of take them off the hook, and we had probably three inches of standing water on the ice in the hut at that time, and I could just hear these dozens of perch splashing around beneath us, not not really dying, just kind of gasping and half freezing. And it got me thinking about how, particularly as hunters, we talk a lot about ethical killing. Yeah, like, you'd never have a half a live deer in the back of your truck. No, No, well I hadn't. My old man was it was accident, it was a road kill. He didn't. He didn't do it, and someone else did it. You never drag a half a live deer and like have it kicking behind me. That that's fine. Yeah, I'm not worried about that. That That sounds pretty dangerous too. I mean there is that aspect, but that's beyond but that's not what that's not the point here. Beyond danger. Yes, So it got me thinking about how we we talk a lot about ethical killing, and we judge people who kill, how we determined to be unethically as hunters, but no one seems to give a shit about fish. My sister in law, you're okay, your sister in law teaser for it, for it and she made her job to dispatch fish, and we ridicule her for it. But we don't have live squirrels bouncing around in our game bags. That would be barbaric. And and if you wound the bird bird hunting and it's still flopping, what do you do? Kill it immediately? Immediately, immediately? And if you don't, you're a bad person, right, I mean by all of like the collective consciousness assessment, fish like tough shit, We just let him go? Why is it? And this is my question, this is what I started thinking about, is why why do we not care about fish? It's I think it's like, well, I don't know. I think it's just like a person, what the amount of credit you give them? High you've talked about before. But so after you and I talked about this, Steve, I went and did a deep dive into some of the literature, like the actual research literature on this and the dark web, Yes, the dark web? Is that? Is that what we're calling the truth about the truth about whatever. It's a real answer and and believe it or not, like in certain biology circles or certain certain uh corners of academia, right now, there is a lively debate about how much pain fish feel and whether or not they do feel pain. And this they're like these sort of these two camps that are lobbying articles back and forth in different journals. They keep referencing the same each other and and going back and forth convinced fish do feel pain or convinced the argument for why fish can't feel pain. And it seems to me that all of this, like I learned, I learned a lot of vocabulary while I was doing this. I figured you guys would would appreciate vocabulary. So one being, um, the things that cause pain into two critters are referred to as noxious stimuli. Got it. Yep, I'm liking that one. Yep. And the beginning for a band, Yeah, would like it's real hard metal. Yeah, very like death metal. Knocks at a lot of like feedback and they sing like death metal. Well that that's that's a great segue into your lead. It is. But I'm I've got more like I've got I've got these the goes on right like you got. I'm not a stimuli. I'm just saying your vana. I know I do cover that in the article. We do get into you know, I do believe there's but there's possibly like the reason at least our generation doesn't think that that's cool. The torture fish is because of Kurt Cobain. We can completely blame him for his his lyrics that you know it's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings. But I don't buy that. Cobain said that he did Underneath the Bridge. Yeah, I never did like that band. I mean nothing to do with that. It's like, well, you're from that area. I couldn't help it. I still I don't. I don't don't consider him like a solid source on on fish. You don't go there for your theology. I don't. I don't. There were people in my class bawling the day Cobain killed himself, or the day of the news came out that he had killed. I'm not about being I'm not gonna like act like I'm sad when someone passes away. I'm not. I'm not sitting up sorry. I'm not gonna act like I'm not gonna stay like. That's not I means said the opposite. I went, I'm saying like meat digging, and I just don't like the music as bearing out my feelings about one's passage, especially someone has a child. Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot this back to to where the noxious stimulator things that could hurt something. The the behavior of responding to noxious stimuli without being conscious of it or is known as no seception or nazi semption. I'm not totally sure. And and where this really hinges is the difference between having the subjective experience of pain, which is known or subjective experiences are known as quality just more more thrown out there. But there's a subjective experience of pain versus sort of the unconscious response to a noxious stimulus. And the best analogy that I was able to find was that, like when you put your hand down on a hot burner, your body jerks your hand away before you experience pain, And so those two neurological experiences are different, like that the processes in the brain are very different between having what they would call a nose defensive behavior pulling your hand away, and then having the subjective experience of having pain. And so where these two camps of researchers seem to differ is do fish have the physiological capability of getting to that pain experience? And some say they dunes, some say they don't. So there there's still debate between these two camps of biologists as to whether or not fish are just reacting to not just stimuli, or they're actually have or they have the capacity to both react to it and feel it as a pain experience, if the quality or the subjective experience is similar to ourselves and higher primates. And so there's there, you know, if you look at it in terms of the evolutionary tree of vertebrates, fish are about as far from primates as you can get. And there are a lot of differences in the way that we're put together. And these two camps of researchers are essentially arguing over something that right now is unknowable. What is the internal experience of fish? And point unknowable it is? And and they both seem to me, And I'm sure we're gonna get mail from folks who are researching to no more than I do. It seems to me that they're working from predetermined notions. One camp be in like it is we since we can't know the possibility of subjecting these critters to pain that's not unnecessary, is is atrocious, and we should therefore make sure we're not doing it, and the other camp saying the value to humans of our the way that we're doing things like the way that we fish, the way that we farm, the way that we do testing on fish is so high that we can't assume that they're having the pain experience. And so they both are working from their their preconceived notions of value and trying to prove something that at this point is unknowable. Where are you add it? I mean, I'm stuck on the unknowable part, and I have I love fishing and I'm not gonna stop fishing. And I think that fish experience stress. There's no question they experience stress. You can, you can, there is is there no question that fish experience stress. That part is is no question they experienced stress. They have stress hormones. They there are a lot of studies that demonstrate that they avoid noxious stimuli right, and that they different fish more than others. By the way, trout do not avoid noxious stimuli because they're not as smart as say goldfish. Different story though. The other thing I found, but that's why the can catch them so good. I still think I still from when going back to the initial story, I don't think there's any reason to unnecessarily subject fish to stress if you're just gonna kill him anyway. So you're now stopping, you're stopping. Okay, let me put it this way. Let's say you're fishing bluegills. It's hot, and you're throwing them in a bucket because they stay alive in the bucket, they do. And you keep adding water because you're live well alive because it's hot out you don't happen to have a whole bunch of ice and packing them on ice and whatnot. Do you think that's bad? He damn sure is not wanting to be in that bucket. Yeah, I mean, I I think that. I think that. I'm not I'm not condemning live wells. I'm not gonna come. I'm not gonna go with that about buckets. I mean, do you make an argument the bucket alive well, pretty damn so properly managed. I think those are pretty dmpn similar, I think. And I think that in that case, if you're playing to harvest that fish and it's a question of spoiling the meat and wasting the critter, I'm gonna say keep it in the keeping the bucket and keep alive, but then dispatch it quickly when you remove it from there. Here's the thing that makes us interesting too. And you talk about this, you talk about killing fish. When you were a commercial fisherman, I was. I was. I was a guide that was a recreation guide, but we were harvesting a lot of I was gotten up in Alaska. I got it up in Alaska for years, and we harvested a lot of salmon for our clients, and we essentially became fish processors. Best practices, yeah, was to get them in as quickly as possible, whack them right at the base of the skull until you get the twitch, and then bleed them out and get that meat off the bone. I did. I I commercial fish in Alaska for a long time, and we would haul in tens of thousands of sam at the same time into our hold of refrigerated seawater that's exactly thirty four degrees and so, and they would freeze to death over the span of about an hour they'd be swimming around in there. So that seems much less humane than what you were doing. Yeah, and and that like to to that point. That's one of the issues going on with the researchers are talking about right the way that we harvest fish commercially, if they experienced pain, Like, we have all these things in place for livestock, in the way that you can kill livestock too, so that it is as humane as possible, even like blind Yeah, like blind alleys, you can't they can't see the one in front of it. Yeah, and they don't see like in a normal situation. I guess they they're not even watching the one in front of it get hit. And that's a neat quality issue as much as a that's what That's what I's getting out the commercial practices is it winds up being that Um, people who are like just concerned with since they're just concerned without it's like a reductive thing. People who are concerned with quality of flesh. Um. I didn't know about your case. I think people are concerned with the quality fresh process real quick. Yeah. But Sam's case is slightly different too, because we're talking about he's talking about humane ethical kill and this is a question of do fish feel pain? Well, this is both And that's the difficulty of this of this debate is because we're trying to apply science to a philosophical issue. The reason that we know this is possible though, or it's a relatable thing is congenital in sensitivity to pain or SIP genital and sensitivity genital um, which is the human version of you have never felt pain, nor are you capable of feeling physical pain. So by knowing about that, we do know that it is at least possible to say, well, these fish or what whatever you want to discuss this on, it is possible that they could very well not feel pain because we do have an established case. Um, I know that these critters damn sure don't want to die. No, that's why. That's why. Yeah, I don't don't really have any to add. My sister in law changed my my My sister in law made me feel slightly sensitive to it because she doesn't like it, and that that was the base of your We're out fishing catfish, she don't like them laying by. I'm about we're going all around, she won't even fish. Should just take a flame knife and kill all the catfish. I would say this. I would say this. I think that the point for me in all of this is that we we talk about trying to be at least conscious of the way that we kill things, we're gonna harvest somewhere to eat them. And I think that we should apply that to fish as much as we do anything else. And and because because it's unknowable, take steps to you know, I'm not saying don't go out and kill fish, because I'm not gonna stop doing that, but to to do it in a way that like if to not unnecessarily draw out that process, because this was not hard to just whack him over the back of the head. And they're done the same way, like if you kill your ducks to someone say like I don't, I think you should when you run up to a duck, you should make sure it's dead. That's not by extension saying you shouldn't hunt ducks. No, yeah, we've just accepted that. That's like a normal practice. Have you guys seen the videos of the Messiah when they had decided to kill you know, they're nomadic hurds and when they had decide I had to kill one of their beeves. Um, like, it's quite the slaughter process because like everybody's around petting this. I would assume a steer um. I'm not sure what age class they select, but that would suggest that they cast right. That would suggest that they cast right if it's a steer. But and I'm putting a lot of western uh yeah. But they're around like petting this uh beef and uh I had and from what outside looking in, making it seem very special. And then somebody just pops a real quick hole and it's jugular vein and uh they continue to sit there and and pet it and eventually it just like weekends and goes to sleep. There's a apocalypse now now they do it. No, no, but that seems like killing them softly approach. I think. I think the the quick kill and uh, you know, quickly dispatching our our game is something that's very caught up in the uh you know, the fair chase ethic that's developed around sport hunting in the United States over the last hundred years. Because I imagine the market hunters of old didn't care so much about it. I'm guessing not guys who were out killing, you know, dozens and dozens of deer bison every day probably weren't overly bothered by the you know, how long it took for them to die. They were, but for other reasons. But someone who ran four their bison off cliff right. Yeah, probably wasn't top of mind to go and make sure I mean that that was like a maiming exercise. It was like, probably not top of mind to make sure everyone was humanely dispatched real quick. No. But I mean, this is this is something that has grown, as you know, I feel like concurrently with the fair chase ethic, and I think it's a positive notion. I think it's tied to a lot of other Western ideals and even anthropomorphism, the growth of that in our culture. So it's it's fascinating to me. And just dealing with the working on this piece with Miles, it's it's really made me introspective about it. Now. I sort of feel bad for letting tens of thousands of pink salmon, uh you know, die over the band of a couple hours. And it's it's really made me think about this and every every fish I've caught since then. I've just it's not too hard to take a filet knife and stab it right behind the eye and make them dead quickly. Man, those boys and gone are good at it. They kill him, they do because all their fish bite. Yeah, they around the bottle of the boat. They'll take a chunk out of your leg. Man, they got it down pat. They hit it like it's like they take that knife and they'll they'll stand the fish up, belly down, thin up, and they hit the sweet spot with that tip of that knife that fishes. It's a good practice. Sometimes. My dad almost lost a toe to a dungeon s crab that was wandering around at the bottom of the boat. But you know, some folks again for the meat, the consistency of meat that they're looking for. It's like you want to leave that heart pumping pop a gil so it's bleeding out. That doesn't sound very good. And then there's that may practice miles about that. That's that that can't be a good a good way to go. That's where that's where the man. Once you e k G may something. It's dead dead dead dead dead, Yeah, the dead dead. Explain what that is e k G. Man Um. Basically, you start at the tail um and there's a lot to do with like getting the fish cold um, but it's still alive. Um. You cut the tail open. It hasn't been bonked on the head or nothing. It hasn't been bonked on the head. Yeah, you peel the tail back. You take a metal rod and you running up the spinal column to the base of the brain. And what that does is it uh prevents the fish going uh for going through riga moartas changes change us the way. Yeah, we had a guy right in all about this changes the way to say, like there's like when you slaughter cattle. Have you ever watching the slaughter cattle and a slaughter facility? Not personally, so I think this is the right sequence. The hit with a captive bolt gun, hoist it up, cut it, electrocute it, electrify it. And that has to do with yeah, it has to do with like neat quality issues. But it just melts. There's no like like changes the way. It's like seized up. And and we're the first time I went to Guyana, they killed turtles that way. Cut the head off the turtle and take a long skewer. Did they go out caught in the jungle, Take a long skewer and run it down the turtle spine, down the center of the spine. Because normally if you kill a snap and turl, you can't clean it for an hour or two. You clean that turtle the second you cut its head off because once you e K G. Made it, I'm using verb form up. Once you did that to it, you could lift this leg up and drop it and the leg just falls flat dead. There's no nerve like, there's no like nerve contraction. It just melts. That's fascinating telling you what, man, And it has to do with like like sushi, and you know the applications. I'm not even totally checked out. I need to tell again this is somebody reading about it right now. But it was interesting on the fish thing because if at any point in time a thousand years ago, um, somebody truly thought fish had pain experiencing that, I think it'd take a real tough son of a bit should be like, listen, man, I know it's really gonna hurt, but I'm gonna run this metal route up your spine. If you're quick about it. Yeah, you know what's dead. It's going to be dead, real dead. Yes, if I did that to you, just like jelly, no bringing you back. But I think I think the point here that s important is that like, is it possible that that we are anthropomorphizing all the game as it's very possible, But I also think that that's there's there's a validity to that, to it to to take best practices that we can to tomize the potential of suffering, whether because we do not know, like, at least from the research that I was reading, we do not know. You're not ruining You're not like ruining the meat. No, you're not. It's like it's not costing you anything. And if it's only a ten percent chance that it's diminishing suffering, why not exactly? And from a oral standpoint, it's just better ground to stand on. Yeah, I feel like we can feel better about ourselves as hunters and anglers if we have a higher degree of respect for the animal in its life. And I feel like, you know, in the day and age we live in, having you know, a positive public perception of our practices is as is very important that we consider these things. In fact, just the very fact that we consider them. I think it's beneficial. Was the name of your article, Miles, Uh, it's it's it's currently being decided because it hasn't come out yet. It will be coming out next week, so we we the draft hoppy is finished, But you go with a clever one or just one that lays it right. Out. I'm not sure yet. Like I've got two different options right now, so I'm I'm I mean, the obvious one is do fish feel pain? I've seen that or that exactly. That undersells it, man, I know, I think you should call it um. It's working on ethical right now. It's ethical fish killing. It's sort of the working title. But I think that's lame and I want to get more interesting. I don't have a good title. I'm working on it. I was trying to get to a one fish to fish red fish. Oh yeah, that's a type of situation. I was trying to go with fish. I was trying to go with a play on Nirvana or Kurt Cobain. I wonder if there's another lyric we get to extract there. There was there was one of those in the spirit maybe yeah, de fish, real quick? What's wrong? Honest? Well, I just want to say something. I've been listening to you guys talk for like ten minutes. I was gon and uh, I just feeling It's fun because last night my wife and now we're talking about just like how much does an animals suffer? We're like the kids were somehow the HSUS came into it. And we're trying to explain to kids like species versus individual animals, and we got talking about suffering whatever until like we actually are able to say, yes, this is the experience the animal hats. We can't really even use a term and apply the term suffering to them because you just don't know. And I mean, look at how individuals are different. You might suffer when we're out there in Alaska in the rain and it's shitty and you have a suffering sensation. I might not. I might relish that, and and and and and do well in it, right, and so like it's and it's we bring up these things were like we're like, oh, well, we feel better about it, and sure we do, but it's like this made up fantasy really that like it's in our own heads that we now feel better about this thing that we're doing where we really don't have like there's just no basis to it because we don't know. You could say in the experience. You can say the same thing though about all fair chase philosophy. Totally no, And I agree, like it's something that we've made up and we decided that those are the rules that we're going to play by. Yeah, well, that that's what ethics is. An animal rights ethicist that I spoke with, the guy that's interviewed in the Stars in This Guy documentary, he one of the things he tries not try it out. I mean, one of the things you explained to me is he's like, look at the way are like the way the country handles human rights. All we recognize that all people have rights. It's not we don't base out your rights like an American's rights recognized by the government. We don't go like, oh yeah, but you're not that smart, so you don't have them, or um, you know, you're handicapped in some way, so you don't have them. It's just that we extend them. We agree on these ideas that all people are created equal have these things. And so that's what makes him uncomfortable with this idea. Well, I wouldn't do it too dear, um, but I would do it to a fish. But he does a better, far better job of articulating this than I do. But I'm kind of doing like such a bad job. I almost regret bringing it up. But you get the point. No, no, absolutely, And I'm glad you mentioned him because his segment in that film absolutely informed by thinking on this. I thought I thought that was a super interesting inclusion to the your discussion of hunting. Yeah, he's a good dude, like an interesting well spoken um looks the part of a philosopher. He's an interesting guy. Oh that the human hierarchy of animals is something that I find really terrible. It's you. You, you'd get a lot of advantage out of that. You know. Do I get a personally know what he's saying? You do? Oh? Yeah, yeah, sure, I know what. I know what you've been eating. Um all right, seth, sorry, um, just so we don't have to deal with it next time we podcast E K G. May. I just did a quick search, read three quick different articles. And they do because the main purpose is to do it quickly to end up with a better quality flesh. And so there's a spike driven usually right, that's right to kill it and then the process of bleeding and severing the spinal Helen Choe Helen Show and her boyfriend do it, and they have a special spike. That's right. I forgot all about it. He's got a special spike and a special wire and he takes the special spike and puts it in a special place in the fish's head and then runs the wire up. That's exactly right. I would think he's got like a little special driver for a spike. This is very particular about the placement of said spike. Now that I think about it, I'm glad you brought that up. The picture here looks very much like were you fishing with us out there? We had the fish raw? Was it especially good? It's good, man, we had a lot of it. It's a bummer when you get back to the dock and most of your fishes are eating up. Yeah, living in the moment um anything else, Yeah, no, seth bad. You'd be a bison hunter, I know. And you could have gone down and tried to implore them to extend the season. Yeah. I tried. I know I tried that. But no word of it, not not that I've heard of yet. I feel like, if it was gonna happen, what happened, right, Yeah, I think so, Sam. Final thoughts concluders, you know, I'm talked out. Really, you got water coming in over your waiters, bro. No, I think it's good. I'll stay. I'll keep my feet on the bottom. You did a great job, man, I don't want to do it. Someone had to do it. Yeah. I felt I felt like it was I felt like it was something you know, in the space we exist in as the company that we are, I felt like somebody had to talk about it, and I I didn't want to put that on anyone else, So I decided to do it myself. And it was. It's been. It's been a fascinating, a fascinating process, and uh, I hope people understand that trying my best to to give you the most accurate version of the truth and I'm not trying to preference it either way, will continue to be fascinating. It will continue to be fascinating. Miles Maulty, I'm gonna echo the praise that you've given Sam. I think you did a really good job of that piece. I think that's a really hard one to do, and I'm glad it didn't fall to me. You grad to find about flopping perch that that one. I feel like I can get my head around and I will piss off a lot fewer people. Yeah, you never know, though, You'll always find someone to get mad. I'm good at pissing people off. I've done that my whole career. Okay, do you want me to clarify my hierarchy of animals statement? I was, it's I is just excluding the human animal from that equation. Oh I thought you're talking about position at the top of the higherarchy. No, no, it just it really bothers me where it's like, well, yeah, but that one special you know, it goes in the charismatic Magafana argument that we always talk about. It just drives me crazy that people are so disconnected from what food is, so disconnected from the animals, yet they feel like glue trapping mice and ship like that. Yeah, slapping the glue trapping mice and getting worked up because some guys eating deer somewhere. Yeah yeah, But I mean we play we play into that too on some level. I mean, most hunters get weird about, you know, when to eat a monkey, Oh yeah, or dog? Yeah, dude, I'm telling you what. Everyone bleeds in the hierarchy. Yeah, I put monkeys on the thing. Well. I remember when we were at the fish shack years ago and your oldest boy was challenging the hierarchy. He was scooping up all these little eels and hermit crabs and stuff, and he'd get them all situated in bucket, and he'd have like little caves and stuff for him, and then every morning everything could just be belly up in that bucket, you know. And uh, that kind of everybody kind of got together and I was like, all right, um, wouldn't it be good at the end of the day. At the end of the day. But he flipped about se cucumbers cucumbers. So his hierarchy is that like fish, eels, crabs or gunnals gunnalfish just look like an eel that somehow the lowly c cucumber like dassn't be touched, but he will suffocate innumerable other creatures and artificial like aquarium settings. Perhaps the least cute and at least like least human being there is a c cucumber just doesn't look like anything. It looks like something that has a doctor in his mind. It was like, how could you hurt such a thing? I need to go and dump out all the dead stuff from my bucket. I'll tell you he's not he's not interesting. Putting a perch back. No, no, no, he was upset with me yesterday. He doesn't like that kind of stuff at all. I got no concluders. Did ever get a concluder in You're good except for you good almost no, I'm spent alright, guys. Thanks