00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening n E podcast, you can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer, All right? Start? What why? Why are you guys uncomfortable? How? How I'm sitting at a desk like an evening newscaster. Well you have your pants on, right? Yes? Okay, because nowadays there was a time when you could do that, but nowadays you need to have I'm at a desk with a computer and papers in front of me, and it's intimidating to uh Ryan Callahan and Janice Poodles. It is. It's seems like we're just not all part of the conversation here. I'm not to swivel. Well, I'm leading from over here at this desk. Like the old time. There was a time when America would tune in at night in a and a middle aged white gentleman would explain to you what's going on in the world, and it was a shared experience, and oftentimes they were pantless. And we're hearkening back to those days with me here at this desk with these pieces of paper. Um Callahan, do you remember the last time we spoke, we talked about a fellow by the name of Kaido. Oh. He was breaking down how he does sushi salmon. That he berries it in kashr salt for eight minutes. So he takes a fish flat skin on, berries it in kashr salt for eight minutes. There's berries in salt for eight minutes. And then rinse is the flay, and that's where you how you get buttery. Yeah, I feel like he must have broken some unspoken rule, like some smoking mirrors of the sushi industry. Everybody's blown away by that. He wrote back, he wants you to know this. Yes, that's what he does. We did not have it wrong. He says, he does half flay's um, leaves the skin on it when he salts it. Cat he thinks it controls a little bit of the moisture loss. And then he says when because you gotta pull the pin bones pull him after you salt the flame. So cover the whole flay in salt. Count to count what's eight times sixty? That is a hard math problem. Count to four and then the count to four like one Mississippi four times. Then rinse all the salt off, then pull the the then pull the pinbones, because he said absolutely no longer than ten minutes. Tracks. Yeah, And he says that when you pull those pinbones, it doesn't do any damage to the meat. It's just they just slip right out. I've seen that, because if you freeze a flay and then pull the pinbones after you freeze it, it it does a lot less damage. It loses its grip on the pin bones. When you pin bone a fresh fish, you're pulling up little popsicles. Yes, bone with meat hanging off the end. Yeah, you can make him look like junk fast. What he also says is this, and I do. I learned this from my old man. Well, my old man learned it from Eugene Grotors. Lord knows where Eugene grots learned it from. But when he's handling salmon flays, and this kind of goes for all fish flays, he makes a hole at the tail through the skin to make a little finger gripper hole, and that's how he handles it. He doesn't carried around by holding the meat and doesn't maneuver it that way. He makes at the tail cuts a little hole and that's how it isn't that isn't that right? Yeah, it's back me up. We make a little finger hole and fish flats oftentimes to tote them around and to skin him because he gives you something to grab onto. He says, he does that. This from a this from a full on sushi chef. Um. That way you handle the flay, all the stresses on the skin and not on the meat. The skin never breaks. He goes on to say this Callahan, He says, it spells your name right. Loves to use call fat. He soaks it in buttermilk to purge it and flavor it. He likes to add a tablespoon of old bass spice mix to the buttermilk and then soak his call fat in air and also his liver. That's gonna make a young Ford van Fasten at the First Light office very happy. He's a Marylander and he thinks the sun rises and sets on old bay. Uh. That's good ship. I like it, I mean for like just like an all purpose It's right up there with Tony Seas. Oh yeah, I think it is very distinct, No, from my desk, from my desk in a in a position that would suggest authority over those around me, No, Tony sees. I don't know why we always called Uncle Tom's seasoning. I have no idea where that came from, Like something to do with Uncle Tom's cabin. But um, Tony, how does it? Someone? You know what? I had some Cajun boys I said that one time. Some Cajun boys told me that I had it. I was so far off I don't even say it anymore. Oh yeah, I get shell shocked by cherries. That's not it, Sash. No family is safe when I say that's a rock song. But that stuff? You like Old Bay as much as that? Yeah, in its place for sure. Yeah, that's because you hang out in North Carolina all the time. I like. I eat a lot of seafood too, from North Carolina. That's what I'm saying. They probably use a lot of Old Bay down there. Not a ton My father in law doesn't. He likes it, playing it simple, you know. Kido also says this on the subject of Morrell's he's talking to you and this, well, he's talking to me and this. He spells your name right in my name wrong. He spells me Steve ste a v e Um. He says Morrell's Yeah, man, you gotta rinse them place, don't run water over him. He places them in water, let some salt for a while, the dirt falls away, and then he lifts them out of the water gently. Is a denser than the mushroom stuff and will sink to the bottom. And he doesn't then use that water. If he does, he just imagine, just use the top and not get down in the silt. I told you guys this year that the few that we found last spring turkey hunting, um, I did the steam and freeze method and uh just had them frozen. Bay. I froze them on cookie sheets and then when once they were frozen and dried, I just threw them into gallons ziplock bags and uh, great products. Very happy when it came back. I messed around freeze mushrooms. Was never that happy about it steaming and freeze. So uh. Another little thing I noticed is you really don't have to go to cheese cloth if you want to reserve that liquid, because as you reduce that all those heavy parts, once it gets down to like the bottom inch of liquid, they just start plaster into the side of your saucepan. Oh really, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I mean it is clean as clean as a whistle. Yeah, uh, can I tell you a little more? Call fat? A uh emergency room doctor wrote in from Jackson, Michigan. He's an emergency room doctor in Jackson does an ann arbor. He says there's something we need to know about. The couple things we should know about. Speaking of call fat, he says humans have something similar to call fat Anatomically, it's called momentum okay, and it hangs off the greater curvature of the stomach and an overweight people, this cann cottain considerable size due to fat deposition. When cleaning our dear, he gives a basic anatomy class to his hunting tribe and reminds him how similar human anatomy is the white tails and most mammals for that matter. And he says, there's some words we ought to know about for the stuff we like to talk about. The paritoneal cavity is everything below the diaphragm. The pair it to neil cavity that contains below the diaphragm is in uh diaphragm to an section Yeah downstream downstream um that's having deliver large and small intestines spleen stomach and everything. So the pair ton neal cavity when you're gutting a deer is below above upstream is the thoracic cavity. This is where you got giosophagus, heart lungs, and your great vessels like the aorta and vena cavin in Scotland. Hunted in Scotland one time with the gamekeeper and they have a thing called like a They like they got deer out in the field. They got dear only below the diaphragm. You know what I'm saying, Like it's like the word they uses, like the glad. I don't know, glad. I'm screwing it up just because the diaphragm is holding everything else. All this stuff that's gonna sour fast is blow. You get all that out. But then in the field you don't got diaphragm up anything with the esophagus. They pull that, they cut the windpipe or anything like that and pull the windpipe out. Remember this stuff is not gonna sit around though, But I remember it was like that was He's like when you got something, they got it like that, And we got the parrot tonal and thrasc we remove the contents of both the parrots and neil and thoracic cavities, and those guys just removed the contents of the parrot toneal cavity. He goes on to have a whole lot to say about getting poisoned by mushrooms man harrowing stuff which I'll not get into right now. Um quick, oly thing I want to touch on just from like feedback to feedback. I had two guys right in to say that in the old days, no one bled Wally, but now people bleed Walleye. This guy says, about ten years ago everyone in lake Erie started bleeding Walleye. This guy says the same thing. He fishes the western basin of Lake Erie, and he says, twenty years ago no one bled Walleye. Nowadays everyone bleeds Wally. They're using buckets of slash ice and getting real particular about field care in Lake Erie. He says, better text your better flavor. When he got when he bleeds him, he says, the meats whiter and firmer fish last longer. I have not actually been able to detect a flavor, and those ultra white fish. But yeah, I know you complain about Walleye about that, well, here's how he does. Here's how he handles his walleye. Standard practice is unhooked legal fish clip the front of the gills with pruners. Picture he's talk about where to come up together. Okay, right, blow the chin and then drop the fish head first into a five gallon bucket half filled with water. Fish and bleed out and dive very quickly. Then it's removed and iced. He's enjoying great success with that method. That's cool. That's really cool. Now here's the guy saying that when he breaks something and gotta fix it. He says, so it not with thread, you dumbass, but with braided fishing line. Here's a guy. Wants to know your guy's opinion on this. It's smart. Yeah, dental floss, he says, this is better than donal floss. Downal floss strong step, braided fishing line strong. Yeah, but you don't flash your teeth. I know, but yeah, I carry donal floss and do my field repairs with dental floss. I've got field repairs. I made a way ago. I sold my sling up a long time ago with dental floss. I carry a little mini travel dental floss in my kit into the back of that. I stitch a needle meant for like fixing sailboat sails. It's got a curve to it because little kids carry needles because they think they watched Rambo and they think you're gonna sell yourself up. I've heard from doctors that that's not the way to go about it. When you give yourself stitches, the first thing they're gonna do when you get to the doctors undo those stitches because it's just not properly cleaned in there. You're you're holding holding the nasty stuff. My friend who is a doctor, stitched their own dog up one time when we were hunting, and they even undid those stitches that were done by a doctor to get everything sterile in there and then do a redo. But we used to all dream because Rambo stitched his arm, and we used to all dream of stitching getting it if you would be so lucky as to get into a sitchy age where you could sell yourself back up, and then you could point to it at some party later and like, I know that looks a little rough, but understand that I did that. I have a um coincidental counter story because my cousin was somewhere deep in Colorado, not real bad country, but like what do you call it, like four World drive back country right across some slick spots and whatnot. And they got to a spot and they got to a snow drift and there was like some trees down and anyways, they're chopping their way through it, and he put a hatchet right into his shin. Yeah, and they I don't know the reason that they didn't just leave, but they stitched them up and they stayed, and uh. He got to the hospital a couple of days later, and they were like, good job, excellent, don't need to do anything here. Bullshit, really really all right, here's one was it? Because they looked at him, they were like, well, you're not gonna be able to pay for this anyway. So maybe I feel like there was an argument to that there was gonna be maybe more damage done by going in there and messing around anymore and trying to reopen the moon, especially after that, you know, the time of whatever forty eight hours or more had passed that there was some sort of thinking like that, let's say you're out hunting, you're out picture it. Yep, I'm setting the scene you're out hunting? How many bullets you got with you? This is a great question. What is the reasoning for this number? And what arguments have guys had on the topic over the years? How many bullets are you toting around out in the woods. Can't believe we haven't covered this. I cannot believe we've never talked about because I have very ah strong conflicted feelings on the subject. Do you remember the last second to last time we hunted B C. And we were up on the mountain and this question just kind of came up between Aaron, yourself and myself. All three of us had thirteen rounds total days. Do you remember? No? I don't. I wish I remembered because that number feels good to me. The number feels good to me. It's an unlucky number, which I don't believe in. Don't maybe we all have thirteen rounds because everyone knows that twenties too many? And ten Because here's the thing, I start to, Okay, get on a couple of issues. Well you go first. Why I'll get around to why I carry thirteen around? Why I carry around thirteen? Okay, three rounds in the magazine? Oh that's why it's thirteen, uh three rounds in your pocket or someplace quick access too in my pack, two in my my hip pouch and me and three in the mag two in the pouch. You got at least two tags on most long huns, so that could be you know, one to three rounds per animal if things get sideways, and then if you fall on your butt and you whack your scope, you want a couple of rounds to sight back in with. Right, That's one of the things in my head. How that adds up to in my brain when I'm packing from my pack, Well, I don't know what I'll touch on. Two is um that there's uh societal collapse while I'm out, and I gotta reckon with that. So here I am, society has collapsed, ammunition value goes away. I'm like I have, I'm gonna be residing in the mountains now for the foreseeable future until I can sneak my way in and rescue my family. So then I got a factor that and add another one another boulder two for that. So that's that's your like little equation. Yes, that's it. But that would mean that if you only had a teg. Let's say you don't have a deer tag and elk teg you got oh teg, you got oh dear tag? Do you then take some out it would be yeah, by that it would be reduced by three. Yeah. I mean, so you do the you you calculate that carefully. No, I really don't. It's just and that's the question. It's like, that's typically what I end up with in my between my person and my pack. How I get there? I do not know. These numbers are definitely more of like backpack, Like I can't get back to the truck tonight, Like I'm like in there for a week, So if I haven't bought my sculp, I gotta deal with it out here. No, because I do the same thing even day hunting. Yeah, even day hunting. Um, where it's like I leave my vehicle before daylight and I know I'll get back to my rig after dark. I will find myself still carrying around the same number and I'm gonna explain how I've come to it or like sort of the loose math I'm running in my head. Um, but yeah, what's your number? I would say that, Yeah, if I'm out there for like if it's like a big hunt and we're backpacking staying out there, I'm probably like full mag so if that's three or four rounds, and then I've probably just got a sleeve of ten um. You know. Lately we've been shooting Federal ammo, which but before shooting Federal I would just have reloaded stuff. So sort of depend on what sort of container I had. So if the container held eight, I'd probably have just had eight. But just some way that I can organize it. You know, I like to run those little stock pouches and sheet um. But man, I mean, don't talk about having a play. You don't have, no do I have like bullets hanging off my stock. It's like a like a bullet losing device. Deal looks you know, look so oh you don't care. Like the bandelier look no, no, no, it looks so put together. And Benny O'Brien was running one of those bandeliers. Yeah, I guess what, because he was carrying a honest pitelis rigged rifle. It's like I call like an ammunition dispersal device. Know that one does have it on the outside, and I feel like that is a flaw um. But the other one I have, and I think I gave you one like that, the one from Pig Tactical. It's zipped in the power when I use. When I use that, I keep the ones that I would normally keep in the hip belt of my pack and the hip pouch my pack in that thing, because usually if you're in this situation where things got as as I don't know who coined the term, but Scott little Western squirrely. And when I think they say Western, they're talking about like maybe a Western movie shootout. No, I think they mean just anything gone haywire. Because people that use people that that use uh, they'll use it anything like like people will say, um be running lions and like, oh the things got a little Western. I when I hear them, like oh the dog's got a new fight with a cat. If someone packs horses, things got a little Western, Like oh the horses freaked out and ran down the hill and scattered gear everywhere, gear everywhere. I got all tangled up, kick someone in the face. Okay, Well, let's say you get into what I'm saying that a synonym is squirrely, yeah, or shootout except no, because someone told me they got into a shootout, I'd be like I was like holy people are shooting back at you. The deer were so, but I feel like, um, you want to have those extra rounds close and like top of the top pack or top pouch on your pack. It's probably kind of a close spot. But man on the stock your gun is super close to where they need to go to get more rounds down range. You know. Um, But I'd say for day hunt, I'm probably like full mag plus another pocket full of three or four maybe two full max. So probably day hunt. If I'm going dawn to dusk, i might be down to seven or eight. But if I'm going back country for a week or whatever five days, then it's uh in that thirteen range full magplus ten. Something to think about as far as like your m you know, cartridge containers, sleeves, um, you know the ones that like hook on your belt and stuff like that. I've found one time, I've I watched a kid go after his mantelope and he had a full box of ammunition in one hand, rifle in the other. Stop to make his first shot, put the box ammo down and continued off into the prairie without his box ammo. Um. So I I found that and I just put it on his truck hood. Uh, but then I've found two other like cartridge containers, like in the back country, like going up a trail, and the same exact thing must have happened. Somebody stopped, did some shooting. I had to pull out their sleeve anu and then took off. Yeah. We one time climbed up this is on the Arctic slope, like where no one's around, and there's a mound of kind of like a like a little like a like a little knob, like a little glass and tip with a smooth thing on there. And you're out in the Arctic, right and climb up there, and sure enough some lost couple of bullets up top there, lost couple shells up there. But my my thinking at it like I've arrived at the same number, and it's it plays out in my head like this. I don't want them. I don't need a whole box, right, I don't need a whole box. So what will happen is I'll put three in my magazine, not one in the chamber, but I'll put three my magazine. There's three. But then I'm thinking in my head, a lot of things could happen. You could even lose the magazine. It's happened where you're all hunting if you have a detachable magazine all of a sudden. I used to be so paranoid about it. I would put my magazine in and then I would put a piece of duct tape that wrapped up around each side to secure that. Man, I was so paranoid about dropping that magazine. Major complaint. I think, Well, I had word of those goofy remming to Model seven hundreds a long time ago, and it had like exposed buttons that would drop the magazine. I mean, you'd look at that thing, funny in the magazine would come out. So I used to duct tape that thing on and I'd put a whole stock on there so the duct tape would grab that stock material. And I was so nervous about losing that thing all the time. I'd click it in there and put a piece of tape on it. I can still get it off in a hurry, but in a in a situation like that, I'm not gonna be reloading that anyways. Then you're just dropping single rounds. And yeah, you know, like I don't need it. I don't need to be able to get the magazine off in her. I'm not gonna pull them. I'm not gonna, in the heat of the moment, pull the magazine. Now, reload the magazine, stick the magazine back in. I'm just gonna be dropping in singles. But what if you had a second magazine, sure, and that's how you carried your three extra hounds in your pocket. I still wouldn't because then I'd be like, yeah, I'm not gonna told that magazine round. Then what I do? So I got nobody I ever knew until like this day and age ever thought the seventy bucks for another magazine was. Everybody was like, yeah, that'd be nice, but ever wanted to pay it. I just never had a detachable magazine gone. But I kind of almost went that route one time just so I could because I saw it in action once where the dude I was like, I had tagged out. The client was like the last day, it was a great hunt. We uh in the morning, it's the fifth day of the hunt. And in the morning we're all jacked up, drinking coffee, getting ready to go out, and we got one tag left to go and out walks one of the clients and he's got like dress shirt on press Khaki's like ready to go to the airport. We're like, what's up. He's like I'm done. I'm done. It ain't happening for me. We're like, we got a whole day, bro, let's go Nope, nope, nope no. So it like literally takes us to wait after first light until we're like get your gear on. All his buddies like rally and we get out there and it's just one of those weird mornings where like ten am, there's a five point bull out feeding in the quake. He's like the first ridgie peak over and we're like, see he told you, you know, all you have to do is get out here. But Ethan, who you met this year in Colorado, was carrying his ax the guy's extra magazine, and he shoots, shoots, shoots, shoots, and then literally it was like I just saw his hand come up and Ethan goes and that extra mag like gets put in there, and somewhere down the line of you know, six or seven shot, finally he hit him, and UM, yeah, see here part of what I'm doing all this like math in my head. I don't go out like I'm like I need one of these bullets. Like to go out making a plan about how much shooting you're gonna do. I feel like you've already and as a lab Vian, you'll appreciate this. You've already set You've already sent a message out into the universe to be like that. You've got it all planned out about how much, just how many bullets you're ready to shoot. But you don't plan for the best of times. You have to plan for the worst of time. Hear me out, I am, but I'm not going into it. Fixate on how I'm gonna get maximum rounds out the end of the barrel. Right, I put my three my magazine, then I in my hip belt. I used to put two in my hip pouch on my pack. Now I like to depending my binal harness has a little pocket, right, and I'll put often one there because that's with me. Like no matter what, I don't like to leave my pack. I don't like to like get up and be like, okay, you know this, next hills the hill, let's leave our packs. I don't like to like to keep my pack with me because you just never know whe're gonna wind up when things go bad. But like I took one there and nowadays. I took one there, and I took one in the hip pouch of my pack. So I got three of the magazine, one right here, one right there, So I got them all over to damn place, and then I got Then I take a sleeve half of a box and that's in my pack. And what I am prepared for is if I'm hunting with other people, I'm especially like wanting them because I'm picturing that they're gonna cripple up something and then we're gonna be trying to chase it down. Right. Yeah, So that's one of the means I have much. And I'm also mindful of societal collapses. We'll think about Rambo too, right to go back there, He didn't he pour out gunpowder onto his wound and cauterized his wound. I don't. I can start carrying an extra one for that, so I carre him for societal class. I'm gonna carre him for that. And then, like you said, knocking your rifle off and need more. I think about that the backpack thing. I say snarky comments when I'm hunting with somebody. That's always almost always our tree season, and for some reason they dropped their pack and then take off after the elk. And what I would like to do is leave that pack there and then that they would be forced to go learn that hard lesson of trying to find their pack in the dark. But that would also make me stay on the mountain much longer when I'm trying to get out of there. So I pick it up and I say something like, yeah, some small child forgot their knapsack over there. I was talking with someone not long ago who I can't remember, who you might remember, leaves tie surveyors tape onto their pack to help them find it when they lose it because they've left it somewhere. I've done that they're missing the greater lesson there. Yeah, you think that, like you get up and you think like it's all gonna happen right at this little rise, and then you wind up hours later in the pitch black miles away without your pack. But it don't even take that man. I mean, when it's pitch black, it can be fifty yards, but you think it might have been two hundred yards like I've been. I know that I've been within like seeing distance off my pack in the dark and with your head lamp and you're just sitting there going ship ship ship. Yeah. When I do leave my pack, I drop away point on my GPS if some real like if you're run like a very heavy pack, right and it's just really and you need to have like mega optimum stealth right day one of a hunt or something. Yeah, and you're like, do this pack is too much? Like I can't put a creep on right now, I'm gonna have to leave the pack. Then, No, that's why they have them. Then I'll put some essentials in my binal harness in the little pockets and whatnot on there, take a GPS thing and throw that unit in my pocket so I can go find some bitch when i'm you know, wind that way later. Uh cal Yes, this guy we had talked about Camo. Andy's remember that this guy wrote, and he's got a bone to pick with you. He owns camouflage. He owns first like camouflage boxers. But he says both times when he's winning to make his order, he tried to buy a solid but it was out, and bought Camo, and everyone thinks he chose Camlo. So he's like, he thinks you have a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, going on there to say that people buy camel. This guy is saying that it wasn't his intention, but that's what he has. But it's okay because his wife thinks it's hilarious. Goes on to say, I'm not calling cattle wire. Yeah, well yeah, not not to say I'm right and he's wrong, but I feel like I did say when we first started out, that's the way it was like the camera went faster than the solids. Now I think it is the opposite way, and and I could be totally wrong, but yeah, I'm I'm right there with you. I do we have such a limited offering of colors, Like right now, you know, I'm like into week two of living in hotels out of my same bag, so it's I also have camouflage on DS with man burned through the other ones. Yeah, and I can be like, oh, literally burned dry earth is gone. Time to worth fusion. Here's a good letter. This is this guy's an attorney. This this is this is an attorney, a lawyer with an interesting practice. He has a practice focused on hunters, guides and outfitters um and wanted to talk about our permissions episode a law practice. Really, Um, he I am an attorney with a practice focused on helping hunters, guides, and outfitters and numerous ways. Nathaniel is his name. Um, he's responding to the Permissions podcast. Most like like states have All fifty states have a version of the Recreational Use Act. This is helpful for people to know. Listen to what I'm saying. If you're at work, stopped working, just listen. Um, All fifty states have a version of a Recreational Use Act. It confers liability protection onto landowners who allow free access to their property for recreational purposes. This means, he says, if I go knock on the door, which I frequently do in Colorado and canvas in Kansas where I hunting practice, and the landowner allows me to hunt, fish, hike, et cetera without charging me for the privilege to do so, the landowner is protected from liability. But recreational what's the word I was using again, r U s is, oh, recreational. Yeah, so anyhow this liability no, I've not got myself toldly confused. But he wants to caution this. It extinguishes the protections if there is compensation of quote of any kind given to the landowner. If this guy, we had a guy right in the letter that he offers the landowners, or he says, hey, man, if you let me hunt, I'll provide a number of services to you. I will post your land if it's not already post. I will pick up garbage. Okay, he's gonna do these a he's gonna do these favors to the landowner. He's saying, once you enter into an arrangement like that, you negate the liability protection provided that landowner for giving free access to his land because you've now entered into a broker arrangement. Wow, and that'd be so hard to disprove or approve one way or enough. The compensation exemption would likely not apply if the work was done after the season as a thank you to the landowner. But if you enter into it and say you let me hunting, I'll do this, you might not be protected by your landowner, might not be protected by his states lie like de facto liability waiver of a person who allows free access to their land. This guy says, if an individual is going to hunt on the land of another in pay or compensate, he absolutely advises having liability waivers. He goes on to save waivers are a whole can of worms depending on your own state. But um, he still advises it. I know that a liability waiver is very powerful Alaska. That's not him talking, that's me talking. The National Agricultural Law Center has a great database on the r US for every state. So he's just saying, Um, you can go on to that, the National Agricultural Law Center and look up what your state covers. If you're a landowner, what all your state covers for you with liability when you let people on your land for your charge? What do you think about that? Good to know, it's good to know, but also nothing you would ever put into that landowner conversation. Right, Well, well, well I wanted to about I would love to pay you, but I cannot because yeah, it's but um, but you could add it in, say you got the permission and then it was going to be free. Hey, just so you know, Yeah, I told you i'd feed those cows for you. I'm gonna do it in three months. You know what I could I could picture throwing it out like this, You get a permission, right, there's a feeling of mutual goodwill. You get a permis and there's no strings attached to the permission, like happy to allow you to hunt my place. Son. I could picture saying, Um, well, you know what's cool is you know our state does have a protection to you. You're giving me free access to your land. Um, you're, by state law protected from liability. If I wout to hire myself out here, he might be like, really great, and that could kind of pay it forward for somebody else than he says thank Then he might say something like thanks for sharing. Here's the guy that spells janice why A N N I s, which is a good spelling, not right, but it's a good spelling. Fanatically says he's got squirrels coming out of his ears in Illinois. He also says this, we often talk about doing autopsies on our kills to determine what oregans you hit. That's not correct, and autopsy is done on a human and the cropsy is done on an animal. This guy says, I performed all kinds of the cropsies. Luckily I have never had to perform an autopsy, So keep that in mind. That kind of falls into my cannibal thinking from a couple of months back. You remember that, Yeah, you can preview with me again, but I'm still not totally sure how I feel about it. Yeah, because I mean it's not bulletproof. Do you remember this here? Honest that uh uh folks that say I shot a hole in it? Hunting is murder, okay, And well you know, we as humans say murders or murderers, but if you are a murderer who then eats the person that you murder, you are called a cannibal, which is I regard as being even worse. I never looked at it being like, um like, oh, at least he ate it. Like I don't feel like when I hear of a murderer, right who then cannibalized the victim, I'm not like, well, you know, yeah, yeah, I don't disagree. I do disagree with murdering uh people. But however, you know, at least he put it to good use. It's like it never enters my mind. But those are just our societal standards here. And then you go down to uh pop on New Guinea where they had you know, some some structure for that. It was an important thing for certain age classes. It had like religious or spiritual significance. So you're saying, no, you're saying, if animal rights person, it's gonna say like, oh, you murdered those deer. That the language in some way reflect the fact that you ate it and not use that word. You want a word akin to the cannibal that you that you cannibalized it. Yeah, because I mean is murder I mean it is murdering. I don't know. I mean that's why I float out these big ideas to you. Guys can fine tune him for me to stretch him in poke them. Cabeza de Vaca, who is perhaps the first European head cow. Yeah, Cabeza de Vaca, Okay, He was a Spaniard who was shipwrecked um on the Florida Peninsula like way early and everyone died off and was killed off, and event she was just Cabeza Davaca, and he to survive. He started to head west and walked all the way to the Spanish settlements in Mexico, probably went insane along the way, survived all number of harrowing things. It was a long journey picture I'm talking about, from the Gulf coast to the Spanish settlements of Max to go in the early hundreds, Cabeza Davaca walked it around Houston, it seems, around Houston, perhaps became the first European everley eyes on bison bison bison otherwise known as the buffler. Cabeza de Vaca. One of the groups Cabeza Davaca encountered, would they would burn their dead and then make like a shake a milkshake of the ash and drink the ash like a clay shake. But folks, folk shake. You want to read about some crazy ship man, read about Cabeza Davaca. I write about him in My Buffalo. But we're just thinking the thing like there would be some serious backtracking just right now. You try to walk through the panhandle of Florida, all the swamps, flakes across the miss we've drained so much of that Louisiana saying like and he he describes a lot of wildlife. People put a lot of stock into like historians when you're trying to get a general picture of what was where, they put a lot of like faith into what Kabayza Davaca described along the way, but he encountered these big kurvey horn shaggy haired cattle around what seems to be around Houston. Wow, what was the timeline? How long did that take him? It was a long ass walk, but I can't remember exactly how many months. It's like a three page footnote in my Buffalo book, the Saga of Cabeza Davaca, and also how he came up, how he wound up with that handle. He's raphien st elsewhere though, right it's famous because it's like it's like the first glimpse. What people are really interested in is the location and prevalence of of the location and prevalence of Native American communities along the coast, because what you realize is that, you know, smallpox traveled ahead of the settlements. So usually when you look at like when the Spanish are going into areas, when the England later the English went into areas, you think of them like they're doing their explorations and they're seeing it for the first time, and you think like what they're seeing as being what was there. But the way smallpox works, like Kabys Davaca probably right introduced disease along the way, So oftentimes you'd have to be that you'd have a European stumble through some area, but then it didn't really get like explored for a hundred years later. And now it seems like like when the English were going into areas, they were encountering probably about ten percent of the humans that would have been there had they passed those areas a hundred and fifty years earlier, because how many people smallpox carried off. So if you look at like what Kabeza Davaca describes as he travels the coast, for just like like how many people he's encountering, diferent groups, different languages, different cultural practices. And then you go and compare that to people traveling that same thing a hundred years later, you think they were in a different country for what they're encountering one abundance of animals. There's a school of thought that believes the abundance of animals is much higher later and the presence of humans is much much lower, And there's an implied correlation between that d peopling, but not kind of historically how we've been thinking about it. But that deep interesting that you carried off of the human predators. Of course you're gonna see us in a hundred of course you're gonna see us. The game of spike and game there's a guy. So when you look at like, we're Lewis and Clark found the greatest abundances of wildlife. Historians later when and looked and found sort of the Noman land, the contact, the edges of contact between warring tribes. So like the areas that were very hostile in environments seem to be the areas. This is just a theory someone has that We're Lewis and Clark described the greatest abundance of game where the border lands between warring tribes. So you'd get to where the like you'd get to a buffer of the Crow and black Feet, right and that sort of no man's land between their two core territories, you would find a lot of games. It's very dangerous to hang out in that spot because when you were in that area, you were in the war zone. Yeah, I'm shaking my head because this is like it makes total sense that it has never been explained that like the Headwaters region of the Missouri and you've read that, like just doing your Montana history right, and it was like, oh yeah, and then Blackfeet carry off sue here and Nez person would come over. But so that that Headwaters region of the Missouri was like a hotly contested ground where like you had the crow would come from the south and go up in there. The black Feet would come from the north and weston going there to the Lakota would would come from the eastern range there. And if you went in there, you were gonna be mixing it up with other folks. And it was just and it was like a game rich environment. Here's something interesting. We're talking about morality on a podcast quite a while ago. You were there the Bozeman event. Oh, the live event. We're talking about what makes a good person? Uh, which is way off topic for us, but we're talking about what makes a good person. My brother brought up something called the cants categorical imperative. Okay, he didn't explore it, but he touched on it. And this guy writes in to take to kind of take that idea to task. He's saying that um can's categorical imperative it was a way to determine the morality of an action by imagining the consequences of any individual action if it was a universal law. So he says, let's go out and set out to prove why littering is wrong. Okay, so to to apply Kansas categorical imperative to it, you would say, well, what if everyone littered, what would the world look like? Right, So he goes, Therefore, you can arrive at the fact that littering is immoral. If everyone did it, it would be a total ship show. My kids have a book called What If Everyone Did That? And one of the things that explores is what if everyone littered? What if everyone like talked out of turn? Which is another problem we have on this show. So uh so he goes on to say, so if you want to prove he goes more, he goes on to that he brings us around the hunting. He says, most arguments against hunting tend to be based on irrational emotions, are preconceived assumptions. But when you apply the categorical imperative to it, it does make it seem in his view that hunting becomes immoral because he says, what if everyone hunted? But he hasn't thought about it good enough, because just the fact wouldn't you hunt. You're still subject to the laws. So if everyone hunted, we wouldn't have It wouldn't mean that there's more death. It doesn't mean there's more death and less game. It would just means you have greatly reduced opportunity because like, if everyone hunted, I was like, okay, so that means everyone now has to apply for all the tags. Yeah, we will all draw a lot less tags. But it doesn't. But it doesn't make like you can't use cancers categorical imperative to say huntings immoral, because if everyone hunted, all the animals would be dead, because in this country it's all regulated. If everyone hunted, it would just mean that there's like a lot less opportunity and you're gonna wait in the longer line to get your bit of access. A lot more cash for state agencies, a lot more cash for state agencies, which makes it seem more moral. Yeah, I see what he's going for, but he just didn't think it through far enough. Guy's name is Brad. Generally had good luck. I've generally had very good luck with Brad's in my life. Interesting, I'm thinking particularly of Brad Cross and Bradchester, who were both big BMX guys growing up when I moved Rad and Rad rhymes with Brad. When I see the name Brad, I generally feel like I'm I'm like like like I would like the guy. They already starting up with a little bit of credit, you know, Brad Brad trying to come in and hit his heart with Kansas category comparative. Do you any thoughts on that? You honest, I don't, Yeah, because that, you know, really just nothing. Everybody litters. Well no, I mean I think he stands. But that crosses the boundary of well, yeah, I'm sure there's gonna be higher fines for littering, but if everybody just keeps littering, that doesn't quiet hold water. Right, Yeah, I guess if everybody poached. Yes, we've already arrived at that. Yeah. So Kancers category impair to my Um, here's a good one. This guy is aware of the fact that there are Turkey Grand slams. I don't know if he's aware of the fact that I happened to be a Turkey. A Turkey, I can remember what turkey slam I have? Thank you have this grand the royal. No, we're gonna figure it out. Okay, So slams. A lot of people hate slams, and for very good reason because it introduces an element. Look, I gotta backup. Uh, there's slams are a thing that someone made up or another someone or another made up this idea that you'd go like, Okay, there's different kinds of turkeys, and if one were to get one of all those kind of turkeys, that person would be a slam holder. Okay. So with with turkeys, there there's a thing called a turkey Grand Slam and to get it. So there are five five yis holding up four, but there's five a grand okay, is there just America Grand Slam? There's there are five subspecies which some people say aren't actually subspecies. There are five types of wild turkeys. You have the eastern of the Eastern US. You have the Osciola of the southern half of the Florida Peninsula. You have the Ariams and Rio from the southwestern US. And then you have the Goulds turkey from northern Mexico and the Sky Island Mountain ranges of southern Arizona, New Mexico. If you were to get and the ghouls is kind of the hardest one to get because of availability, Like most people who get a Google turkey get it in Mexico. So a grand slam is that you get the four kinds of wild turkeys. That are around and widely available in the US. A royal slam is if you get the Goulds too. A world slam is if you go down and get another whole other species of turkeys, which is called the oscillated not to be confused the osceola, the oscillated turkey, which is down in the Yuka tam Peninsula, Guatemala, you know the Mayan areas, there's the oscillated um. So that's the world slam, and that's a whole other bird they used to think there used to be. There's possibly was a sixth subspecies of turkey called the Mexican turkey, and that is the one that's probably been domesticated for thousands of years, and that's the one that when the Spanish conquistadors came to the New World. That is the domestic turkey that the Aztecs had probably doesn't didn't even maybe didn't even exist in the wild at the time, but that was where they derived the domestic turkey, which was then taken back to Europe and is the domestic turkeys we know today. So turkeys were are a New World species. They were domesticated thousands of years ago by indigenous groups in Mexico in Central America, Europeans came borrowed the birds, took the birds back to Europe, bred up all kinds of crazy variants on the wild turkey, and then brought those back to the New World, reintroduced them and asked, when you going buy a turkey in the grocery store, that's what you're buying. And they think that that original domestication was perhaps a turkey subspecies that is no longer around. I think some people think it was the Goulds. Maybe it was the Goulds. The question being that this guy has is um, why is there a deer elk Grand Slam? Can I add one thing about the Super Slams or this all the slams here with the turkey thing, because I was just on the National Wild Turkey Federation website and they have a Canadian Slam if you kill all available birds in one province of Canada, which is a Canadian Slam, Yeah, or one too, And then the Mexican is uh gold Rio and uh no, Miriam's all down in Mexico really, so there's okay, there's more turkeys around. But then there's a super Slam, which is the all states besides Alaska and uh. And the reason I mentioning this is because I was like, man, that's gotta be freaking hard right. Well, the last time, according to the books here on the NTF, back up, back up, you didn't, I got I got confused, um because looking at something else. But there's other slams too though, for turkeys you didn't get into, like grand right, Oh, I thought you covered that. Okay, so you're doing just the ones and the one that you hadn't covered. Yeah, okay, so tell me again the name you had it right that you're saying a name for getting a turkey in all fifty states as of what us super slam, U s super slam. I'm jealous of someone that's done that. I can't explain why. Listen, there are according to these records, there's eight people that have done it, killed a turkey and forty states. I like, my brother, is what I explained this to them. They just they can't even begin to understand. They don't like anything that. They don't like anything where you introduce a sports type mentality like a keeping track sports e competitive stuff as um. Thomas McIntyre said, it's pissing in the cathedral. Yeah, in their opinion, But I like it a little teeny bit. I like it a little too. I like it for the I feel like, if that's the way you're gonna go and travel the United States and get to go to different states and meet the people in every nine states and see forty nine different landscapes of turkeys live in, like, it's well worth it, well worth thing to get into, you know. You know, by the end of it, if you were to kill a turkey in all four nine states, you would have killed turkeys in eleven states that did not historically have turkeys, right because they think at the time of European contact we had turkeys and maybe thirty nine states. So yeah, so in that way to go stressed that you'd be like looking at like just how good turkeys are doing. But the dear one, I didn't know, y'all's gonna break down. What's up a deer? Well, like I thought before I did my little ten minutes research here, it's like there's this idea of a deer slam out there, floating around, floating around, But like somebody uh involved with q d m A, they tried to go with a white tail slam and our buddy Mark Kingyon actually wrote a piece on it five years ago and uh where they break down eight subspecies of white tail across our continent. That that's not Yeah. So again, that's why I'm saying, it's like this idea that people are pushing for whatever reason, but it's never really because they wanted to become a thing. They wanted to become a thing. Same thing with the with the regular uh, not the white tail slam, but the regular deer slam would be Columbia blacktail, sick of blacktail, regular white tail? Whose white tail mule deer? Right five, I've done that accidentally, Right, I'm an accidental deer slam holder. Now I'm one away cal but I'm far off the mark, far off the mark. Uh. But the reason some people don't like this is the argument of oh, you're just a collector. Yeah, that's maybe what I was trying to say earlier. Yeah. Uh, I'm gonna start saying, not that i've I'm gonna make it into a food thing. I'm gonna say that I have eaten I have to the royal slam. Be Like, what's that be? Like, I've eaten all um, I've self harvested and eating all five subspecies of turkey man turkey tetrasini out of everyone. Okay, ready for this one. There's nothing I'm not asking you does add anything to this. It's just a thing this guy has. This guy hunts the Texas hill country, cool country. I think you know his family owns, you know, fifty some acres of prime hill country. Over his life, he says that it's become that. Um, he's just seen a lot of change over his life as the whole place has become fenced. His subject line is high fence is screwing my fair chase. He says, when you drive down the road, you're driving down corridors between high fences. And he says it just has had dramatic impacts on sort of the movements of deer and has really kind of like put the screws to someone who doesn't fence, just the interruption of deer movements. And he also gets into the interruption and then the other things that have happened on the land, like introducing exotics onto your fence property just has really changed the area in his opinion for the worst. UM. He tried to bring all this up on a thing called the Texas bow Hunter form and got thrown off. That's interesting. Interesting. I have been on those lanes though. You know, I'm sure you guys have to driving down between the fences. Yeah, you know, I haven't really spent that much time there. Yeah, buddy ars has A has a place out there, and gone hunted with him a couple of times. And his place is not high fence. But in order to get to his place, that that is the scene that pops in my head. Right, you got ten ft tall chain link fences on both sides of the road, and so if an animal did want to move around, they have to basically walk down a very very thin shoulder or right down the middle of the road to go from there is no point A to point B. Right, it's all following some you know, ranch map from a hundred years ago. Or the flip side of it is is that there's probably if you went and tallied up the number of deer, there's probably more dear than before. They just lived differently. They don't move around as wild animals anymore. But like, it's not that there's it's not that you probably can't go and look and be like, oh, it's there's no dear, there's tons of deer that has all been turned into livestock. Yeah, I'm thinking that. Yeah, and so something like the numbers, like the number, like you can't say the species is hurting because they're probably doing fantastic. Like each one of these fence places probably more dear than it did in the past. Real they wouldn't be fencing it, but they're just not. Like some of their wildness is gone because they can't roam. Be interesting to see it. Like how much corn go like silage corn goes to the state of Texas because it's such a heavy you know feeding uh, you know game feeding state. Really Yeah, the number of like the pound or like the calorie count, how much food comes in. And then again, man, it's like that in some ways everybody's got it up and downs because in some ways that ship makes the desert bloom too, right, because like a lot of wildlife feeds off that. There's a lot of wildlife feeds off that cycle just different, right, it's different. Some some people might go and look like, yeah, man, got a lot more quail now than we did, probably way more water. People do water bring in a bunch of corn, You bring a bunch of food and you bring in a bunch of water. So people might look and be like, yeah, man, we know have a lot more quail than we did when I was a kid. We got a lot more haviolina than we did when I was a kid. We got a lot more white tail deer than we have when I was a kid. Um, there's just like the landscape is supporting a larger biomass under the system of all of the feed where you're turning like marginal habitat, you're taking like what's missing, Like, well, what are the things that are missing that would make this just place? Ex blowed with numbers, You're like, well, food and water. Okay, well let's fix it. Let's bringing food and water. You wind up with something like very different. But you can't really readily going and just attack it from top to bottom because if you just if you're going like, well, how are we going to quantify the health of the ecosystem, Let's do it by counting up how many pounds and animals are running around out here. You look at that and you'd be like, it's made a big improvement. There was a lot more poundage of wildlife. But our people might be like yeah, but everything about like the way it uses the landscape, how it's moved, just all the dynamics. You know, you've interrupted all that. And some people might be like, hey, you're right, well there's the negative, and then they would be like, but a lot of animals, every life is so complicated. That's what I found. Kl Um. This guy, we're talking about shooting fawns. Someone's like, what's the morality behind shooting fawns? Now, I'm saying I don't. I don't think there's any it's not a moral there's no moral decision to be made. This guy writes in to say that we shouldn't be harvesting animals that haven't achieved skeletal maturity because you're not getting maximum output out of the animal. He thinks it's premature to shoot a fawn m hm, to pull so you shoot. We're talking about a falling, talking about like a deer drops around Memorial Day, right, and then you shoot in the fall. You know, like you don't have to hear people say they shot a buck. This just like real basic stuff for people who aren't tuned into this kind of junk. You know, people say, like people talk about deer like they'll be like, I killed the buck. He was one and a half, he was two and a half, he was three and a half. The reason they're always throwing in the half is because they're born in the spring and typically hunted in the fall, so you always got like the half. So people say they're shooting a phone, but the really time was just shooting a six month old thing. And you're talking about a species of the life expectancy are too. It's not that little, but it's little. You always hear like deer of the year or fawn of the year, faun of the year born that spring. So when you shoot one and the thing way it's sixty pounds or whatever, and you get a forty you know yield, right. Um, he's saying that, it's just like a premature harvest. Yeah, and I thought we kind of covered that. That was kind of one of my grips with even shooting cafe elk. Everybody's like, oh, the veal of the veal. I'm like, yeah, but you get like fifty or sixty pounds, man, And if you shoot a two year old cow, you're almost double than that usually for sure. I like his term skeletal maturity here's a hard one to answer. This guy wants to know Adam um mixed experiences with atoms throughout my life. Warning to give him the benefit of the doubt, he says, like, do you think each state has its own hunting subculture? Does the state have a hunting culture? I would say no for states, but regions? Do you think so? Oh yeah? Definitely expand on that, man, Um, I guess either works, right, you can't. Yeah, go ah, I've grappled with that in the past. You can expand or expand. I don't carry, honny, what everyone seems wrong hunting culture by region or by state? UM, I think that you could probably find a little like nuances about hunting culture in certain states and be like, oh, yeah, that's just like a total Idaho thing, you know, But it probably more more likely you'd be able to break the country across like the classic regions of northwest, southeast, northeast, you know, Midwest, UM, and sort of find things that are you know, uh, maybe tactics that are more accepted one place or another, Like you and I grew up. I don't know, did you guys? Do money drives deer drives? So where you brought that up because I was the guy rolled in and wanted to know the morality of deer drives, like, I mean, that's like, that's how I mean. I was kind of I grew up in deer drive culture. Yeah, and we do. I mean we did. It was funny because you just like you go right from the evening before you'd still be in full archery mode, setting up stands and hunting deer on the ground and trying to get close. And then the next day you would just like flip the switch and it's like dudes just pushing through the woods running deer and you're you know, taking running shots at deer. I mean I killed my first deer and he was screaming and buy me at ten or fit twenty yards, you know. And we didn't switch into drive mold. We had a ten day or two week rifle season whatever it was. Um, we didn't switch into drive mold to the last couple of days, and you were kind of an a hole if you were out driving deer early in the season. We do. We do opening. We would sit opening morning for two to three four hours. Doug they have like in Wisconsin and the Doug during property dug during family property they have a light drive, a gentle drive that they call the moot. They'll start mooching the second day of the season. But it's a gentle drive. It's not like dudes lined up banging pots and pans and stuff, you know, which is we kind of grew up driving deer, not with pots and pans. But it was like, yeah, it was a lot of guys in the woods, but that okay, couple of a couple of your guys camp stuff too. Yeah, like the car, the camp that you went to. Yeah, I was gonna bring up just a couple of differences that I've seen between just the two regions that have hunted a lot in, which would be the Midwest and then the Inner Mountain Rockies. Um, but like uh, deer poles or meat hanging polls. Right, Like, we have a picture of every single year that I've been at that Wisconsin deer camp, of most of the deer unless someone left early and took theirs, but hung up on a pole and all of us standing in front of it. And it's like a picture that's taken not really to like be like, oh, look at everything we killed, but it's sort of just it commemorates in UM archives the hunt, right and like who was there? How many deer were killed, so that you know it was a good year bad here um attracts time, yeah, but a lot like so. And then if you compare that to out West, like deer drives and I think meat poles are by a lot of like Western hunters are kind of considered like not not cool, you know, not part of the culture. Yea, not part of the culture. Well, the deer drive thing, like we did some some drives here and there for the large part, I would say, completely unsuccessful. But you're dealing with bigger chunks of ground, right typically, right, Yeah, it's just not as manageable because you're generally driving like when you're doing deer drives, you're driving places that have way more dear per unit of space then you're gonna have in the West, and we always had way fewer people. Two. I feel like, if you really want to find success on a drive, the number of hunters you have to have has to be way higher, and we just never had, you know. That's why the whole deer camp thing it is. So it was always so weird to me in the West because it was like, yeah, where everybody together artist artisans small batch drives too. Like the first deer I killed when I was third team was on an artisans small batch drive. There's a four man drive, and that's when you know how the deer, you know what they do, you know how they respond. So like there's this creek, Mosquito Creek, and there's this big sort of bend in the creek, and when deer get bumped out of that bend, they go up, you know, the second ridge down every year, and every year someone's gonna kill a deer coming out of that bend in the creek going up that second ridge. And so then it just as a matter of you say, hey, at ten, I'll post up on the ridge and you go down in the big band and you know it's gonna work. You can't do it the next day, it definitely won't work, but every year it'll work. Yeah. So that's like a kind of a different sort of drive in the big pop bang and drives. You could also do um. A subculture that I used to struggle with but now I understand it is when you see hunting pictures from Arizona in Utah, why how there's so many people in the picture like a Gripp and Grin and Arizona gripp and Grin will have a dozen guys Utah the same way. And I used to be like, why is that? Then I realized it's because they you know, you don't have huge populations of wildlife there and it's hard to draw tags. So to draw like an Elk tag in Arizona is you know, if you live in Arizona and you draw an Elk tag, it's a big deal. And a lot of your bodies didn't draw an Elk tag. Yes, so if you want hunt every year, so helping somebody out, Yeah, So we now that we like have friends in Arizona who are have sort of a tribe, you know, like a group of guys that hang out with it they hunt with. When one of them draws, it's just a it's a thing that yeah, we're all gonna do it. So if some so draw some sweet elt tag, everybody wants to get involved and everybody wants to go hunt. So all of a sudden, he's got eight barties that all want to go too because someone's got his tag. Now, if you get up in a state like like Colorado with like you know, vastly more elk than the other state. Everybody's got a ELK tag. Yours out hunting onesies, twos, these threezies. You don't need to have eight guys because those eight guys all got their own tags. You're like, you do your thing, I'll do mine. It's more individualistic. But it's like a communal form of hunting down there. And that's why you see these big packs of dudes standing behind some animal. I couldn't do it. Drive drive me insane. Well they also but they also radio. Yeah, they radio hunt down there. Yeah. So Jennie, what you're doing is everybody's out glass and um theyroreout glass and and then when they find something they just through text messages or radios convey its location. Yeah. It's just like a way, it's like a hunting culture. Yeah, and and I Understandyeah, I imagine it'd be very successful for me. It would just like lead to paralytic indecision, information overloading. Yes, and then you got like that like again, like that South Texas hunting culture where there's no public land or virtually no public land. Um, it's general practice to use corn to bring to your out of an area that's otherwise very difficult to find them and to concentrate them. There's general practice to huntt of elevated tripod stands or whatever, elevated platforms, and it creates like a sort of culture around that. That's like how deer hunting works. Uh. We were down at the Dallas Fire Club Show a couple of weeks ago, and unbelievable amount of Texas residence saying we're going out and we're gonna hunt public land this year. And they're all going out of state, lots of New Mexico, Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming, some Montana, but all like I gotta go try out this public land hunting stuff because we just can't do anything around here. Yeah, pretty cool to see. Here's another one guy named Patrick. I've always had great luck with Patrick's uh plan to hunt the future and have a question that's yet to be Oh, this guy's never even been hunting. It's not been addressed anywhere. He's sure after looking everywhere. Why does no one mention harvesting the diaphragm from a deer or elk We've not even kind of true, but no one's mentioned it. Yeah, skirt steak, So when you got it's just small on the deer. Like when you open up a deer, where the diet for am fastens to the rib cage, there's sort of like a little like the diaphragm kind of t bones. This makes sense. It kind of t bones into the rib cage and there's a big piece of of of stride it or like stringy kind of meat that's long and thin. It's like a like a Hershey's bar would be like four Hersh's bars or two three Hershey's bars set end to end right diameter in length to hers She's bars laid end to end, let's say. And that's where the diet. That's how the diaphragm joined to the cavity. Now that skirt steak, is it a continuation of the diaphragm or the skirt steak it's like the diaphragm from the ribs back. No, it's like the diaphragm sort of goes out and that's how it's sort of welded, which is an anatomical term. But the diaphram kind of welded to the the the body of the animal. And when you go and get uh carne a saba that's in a Mexican restaurant, that's what you're getting. And on deer, it's just really small on elk and moves. It's like legit, like you can make like full on balls out fajitas with the skirt. Yeah. I don't know if anyone who takes like the who who does anything besides maybe grind up the actual diaphragm. But that skirt steak portion is usable, which is the one that you're talking about that basically flaps below the ribs going back. It's very close to below the ribs, but it's it's yeah, it's kind of like where our our ribs really start to v and and angle back. That's where the the right right at the syphoid process where the ribs come together. Yeah, so I think on do you just don't really notice because it's really small and moves. When you open that thing up, you're like, holy ship, that's a big chunk of meat. Yeah. Yeah, but you guys aren't answering my questions. Still, that could be it doesn't taper back like it's but you know, when you when you got an animal. Okay, so yeah, you're calling that then the flank steak, yes, and then the skirt being a diaphragm yes, Oh the flank, yeah is the well and I always grew up calling the paunch m yeah, which should be your sides blow your ribs, but above your hip bone, below your ribs. Or's this this thin thing the paunch? We call that the paunch that you just grind up. It's low quality meat and has a very strong bit of fashion in there, or like a like a thick. It's where love handles form. Yes, there you go. No, yeah, I'm pinching mind. I believe that's where it would be. I've been putting a lot of work in love. It is really a thing like, yes, you're like I need something to grab onto, grab on the love handle. Oh no, no, no, I think that's a marketing spin one. Okay, it's like an ironic, is it? Because it just seems like like, I don't know, I just have a hard time with it. That's the hand that that's when one needs purchased. That's where they find it. Oh man, um, quickie, there's a quickie. There's a quickie, then a quickie, then a long. This first quick is a question, second quick is the observation. The third long is just a whole different thing. Uh. This guy says to say, how do you sharpen your knife found in the field. He talks about he's got a bench made saddle Mountain skinny knife, which is a damn fine knife. Agreed Um. He goes on to say that how a bench man has a deal where you can send your knife in and get it sharpened, which he likes. But let's say you're out hunting and you've gotta you're gonna be skinning a couple of different animals. How do you what do you how do you sharpen out in the field? Well, bench mate also makes you use their sharpeners. Yeah, it happens a little one of the big one. Honestly, I think the big one is well worth packing if you're gonna really stick with a true fixed blade knife. And I can't remember what it's called, but it's got a ceramic part to it. It's got kind of a course and a fine diamond sharpener on there and and yeah, man, a little minimal bit of practice and you can sharpen, I mean sharp sharpen those things. Yeah, it's a little it's a little heavy and a little clunky, but it depends what you're up to, Like, if you're out hunting where you're you know, let's say you and your buddies are out hunting anilope you're not one or two a day. Um, then I'll be like, okay, this warrants bringing like more sharpening. If just going out on for one thing, I don't worry about it. I used just carry like a little just like basically a little teeny teeny diamond hone it. But it's like you get so much more to have an actual yes, an actual face to to sharpen on. If you bring a multitool of some sort, you can use the hard edges on that, you know, straighten out the edge of your of your blade, which is typically more than enough to keep you keep you running. I feel if you want to be minimalist, you know, and you're bringing that. What I like about them that bench made deals. It's got the angle so it's like molded into it. There's there's like a big diamond honer, not big, there's a diamond honer face on it, but molded into the molded into the sharpener is the is a set bevil. So each swipe you take you can lay it up on that beveled piece and it sets your angle. You gotta doesn't hold your angle. You gotta maintain the angle as you swipe, but it establishes your angle to go on there and sharpener up. It's got like a little leather strappy thing on and a ceramic rod on it. I don't know what. It's called guided field sharpener and it's got a hook sharpener on it. Guided field sharpener. Thea you can sharpen sread knives, scissors. We all know there's a lot of ways of skin of cap. There's more ways to sharpen a knife. This is one of them, and it's like I like it. But if you take a brand new blade out of the box and you're careful with it, it does not take much at all to get that thing sharp sharp if you don't mess it up. Yeah, I think that's the key, is uh, staying on top of your maintenance. Don't let it get doll Yeah. And what dolls knives more than anything in the whole wide world is bone. Mm hmmm, and dirt hair bone is bad hair. Dolls bone messes up. Get some mud in that hair when you like, can you watch your buddy come in, you know, come into like kind of shank or something off and you're like, oh boy, that's not I think the knife ruining. This activity I know about is when you're skinning out ahead for like whatever whatever reason you're doing it, caeping something or skinning it out for a euro amount, and you get your knife in there and you're working the you're working off the hide around the pedicles. Yeah, that's a knife ruining activity. That's almost like throwing knives at rocks. Oh here in the knife the blade hit the teeth too. That just send shivers up my spine just thinking about it. Oh yeah, I can usually carry the little they called the tacticle sharpener. They have a mini version too, but it's only a couple three inches long. It's got the ceramic V notch yeah, and the stone. So I just use that little V notch and just you know, through an elk, maybe hit it two, three, four times and uh, just to keep an eye on her, just keep her straight. Keeper. What's that thing called? I have one of those two. I carry it if I'm like, if I can't justify my big thing, it's called the tactical. If I can't justify my big full on sharpener, then I'll grab that little V notch. Deally but I like, I kind of like became suspicious of those V notch dealis, I think you can unless you take the time to really line that thing up perfectly vertical and the V notch, you can kind of mess your devil edge up a little bit. Uh. Here's the observation that was the question. Here's the observation. This guy says, you guys were struggling with a term. I think you were trying to refer to the Alley effect. Now, the Allee effect, because when you're talking about a population not being able to recover from low numbers, meaning there are like critical population levels at which certain social aspects important for reproduction begin to break down. So mean, like, let's say you have a large um, there's a there's a reproductive strategy called predator swamping. For instance, Let's say you have like like picture a large collection of say geese, and these geese all lay their eggs at the same time, and hundreds of geese, and they're all in an area, they all build a nest at the same time, they all lay their eggs at the same time, all those eggs hatch at the same time. There will be a lot of predators lurking around, But since all of those hatchlings all emerged together at the same time, it's called predators swamping, where the predators can gorge themselves and gorge themselves and gorge themselves, but they can't get them all because they're all hiding the ground at the same time. Whereas let's say it took the same of the same set of circumstances, but let it play out over a month, where every day just some percentage of of these eggs hatched, and the predators could every day gobble up the small available thing, you would end up where they could feasibly get them all. But with predators swamping, you're creating such a like a a deluge of offspring getting put out there that the predators can't They just don't have a chance of getting them all during that that window of vulnerability. So likewise, if you'll see the like like elk, for instance, will sometimes gather up in very large groups, like you might see two hundred three hundred cows in their calving grounds, and those calves are all hitting the ground over of course of a couple of days, preferably right, and you've got some predators hanging around, but they can't get them all and then the calves are very vulnerable for a couple of days um, but then they're up on their feet and everybody's find they can run in. The ulnerability goes down and you have some survival. So the alley effect, they're only effect is when you reduce a population down and then to wind up being that it's hit like catastrophe, low levels like that. You can't just have some. Either have to have a whole bunch, or you're gonna have none, because they need lots in order for them to be able to survive. I can't remember what we were talking about when this came up. Was it the condor condor It's applicable to a ton of things. Passenger we definitely talked about long ago by name with the passenger pigeon, that maybe that species. If you don't have a billion, you don't have any Like you can't maintain a population of ten thousand passenger pigeons because passenger pigeons need to have hordes of them in order for them to be socially effective or to be reproductively effective. Final one is this final thought for the day. A guy wrote in and he's like, curious about is it worthwhile putting in for the buffalo hunts in Montana, which are a mess, but I think it's worth while. So there's a couple of buffalo hunts you're looking. There's a gardener hunt in the West, Elstone hunt. It comes up every year where you have uh buffalo or bison are summering in Yellowstone and the winter, late winter, as the snow accumulates, they need to migrate out. And when they migrate out, they crossed the park boundaries and entered private land in national forest land. And there's a debate. There's this this argument that's a perennial argument that goes on around this where legally the animals aren't regarded as wildlife in Montana. Um they regarded once they go from being their wildlife in the park, even though their native fauna that have been present on the ground always it's like a native land mammal, native game animal, I would like to say, um. But when they leave the park, they lose their status is wildlife and they fall under right right now, to varying degrees that they fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Livestock. They fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Livestock because they carry brucellosis, which is a livestock disease that cattle passed to buffalo, and now buffalo carry brucellosis, and they don't want the buffalo passing the brucellosis back to cattle. And so a state, you know, they enjoy brucellosis free status, and if the disease were to cross the species barrier back in the other direction once again, you'd have brucellosis in Montana livestock and you have to start doing all this testing and quarantining and it's very expensive. So they don't want brucellosis getting back in livestock. Forget about all that for a second. Um. One of the things that they do, one of the things that the state has been experimenting with and trying to do for a long time, is treating him like lives, treating him like wildlife. So they migrate out of the park, they cross in the national forest land. Here you have a resource that has value to people as food. It's a renewable, sustainable resource. And so the state will issue through a lottery permit, draw some limited number of hunting permits. And it's uh controversial. Can be a controversial hunt. There can be situations where there's not a lot of privacy while you're hunting. There can be a fair bit of hand holding going on and like letting you know when they've left and where they are. It's not perfect, but I think people should participate in it and and engage in it and get the most out of that that they can, including a whole shipload of great buffalo meat, for the reason that it is a step in the right direction. And by that I mean it's a step in the direction of managing this herd as native wildlife that can support some amount of consumptive use. You have people that want the meat, the population can support limited harvest. It might not be perfect, but hunters should get in there and be engaging in it and putting in their two cents and doing the hunt and helping hunt, letting hunt managers know, like what they liked about it, how it could be different in the future, and not just turning your back on it. Because this is a step in the right direction. It's good that they're conducting these hunts. He wants to know if I would suggest three eight the huntee, you know, look into it. I put in form I put an inform and I've been down there observing the hunt before. It's something that we just need. I think it's nothing we need to be doing. There's no negative to it at all. And the more we can do to encourage states to recognize and manage these animals as as a big game species, the better. So take one for the team and go down there and do the hunt. What's the worst it comes out of it? You walk home with three hundred pounds, four hundred pounds of bones meat, and if you draw the tag, you can give it up, Like if you all of a sudden you're like, boy, I mean over my head, you can give it up. But yeah, th where you're happening the ring. But the hunts occur at a time of year when no one's hunting anyway, so you be able to round up all your bodies, like, dude, we're gonna go out. We're gonna you know, it's kind of it's a hunt, it's a management thing. Um, we're gonna get the most out and we're all gonna walk home. We're all gonna walk with a hundred pounds of boneless heck. Yeah, So Larry, get down there, bro, Thanks for joining US,