00:00:09 Speaker 1: From met Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is Cal's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now Here's Cal. 00:00:20 Speaker 2: This week's special drop of Cal's Weekend Review is really not a spin off, but it's gonna give you some early access into a future Cal in the Field episode. Something you're gonna see a bunch of on the Meat Eater YouTube channel and elsewhere, more than likely of striper fishing, which would be like the hook no pun intended, of the. 00:00:48 Speaker 3: Of the show. It's like the action, the fun part. 00:00:50 Speaker 2: But really what we're talking about is catch and release mortality. What this fishery means to Massachusetts. And yeah, I said that right. Massachusetts is where we are. So a lot of people think stripers like Jamaica Bay or even West Coast stripers. Massachusetts is a state. This is just like slightly to the north or slightly severely east if you're talking West Coast stripers, but. 00:01:24 Speaker 3: Super cool fishery. 00:01:26 Speaker 2: And I got kind of in touch with this idea, not kind of, but like very much in touch with this idea through back huntry Hunters and Anglers. 00:01:36 Speaker 3: Chris Borgatti, Chris, what do you do? 00:01:39 Speaker 4: I am the Eastern policy and Conservation manager for PHA. 00:01:44 Speaker 3: And why why hear? Why this? 00:01:47 Speaker 5: Why this? 00:01:49 Speaker 4: Well, a lot of what I do, the fact that I do this job and live where I live is because of stripe baths. So this is, you know, of all the of all the many issues that I get to work on and over twenty states in the Eastern US, like this one is kind of like a personal passion project. 00:02:09 Speaker 5: And it was an. 00:02:10 Speaker 4: Issue that I got involved with as a volunteer with BHA. Our chapter chair, Mike Woods and I we're talking about like how we make our chapter distinct as the New England Chapter and in terms of the issues that we cover and coastal issues, and we came up and then right behind that was stripe pass because it linked It is a fishery that links the entire region and if you fish salt water. 00:02:40 Speaker 5: You probably are fishing for stripe pass. 00:02:42 Speaker 2: So yeah, and to pull I guess the podcast curtain back even further, this New England Chapter of BHA, and Chris Borgatti and Mike Woods have been like very good about keeping me and the pod cast in in the loop as far as like what's going on with coastal conservation and stripers and some of the bait fish like Man Hayden issues that we've covered on the show for years now, So that's the connection there, and then Chris introduced me to these two folks I'm going to introduce right now, which would be Bill. 00:03:22 Speaker 3: Hoffman, and. 00:03:26 Speaker 2: I've been saying your name all week because I think it's like the most New England to name, but I can't remember your last name, not right now, Ben Agen, Yeah, which is super fun to say. 00:03:39 Speaker 3: He again, Bill, What do you do? 00:03:43 Speaker 6: So? 00:03:44 Speaker 7: I am a senior marine biologist for the Division Marining Fisheries, and I run our fisheries research and monitoring program. So it's kind of two parts. So the fisheries research is what we're going to be talking about a lot more, and the fisheries monitoring. It's kind of the parallel to the observer program if you've ever heard about the federal observer program where but it's a lot smaller scale. We have a small team of biologists that we put out on commercial fishing vessels to collect information as well as people dockside. So when commercial boats come in land fish, they'll collect biological information that's used for management and biological purposes like stock assessments. 00:04:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, we chatted a little bit about that when we first first got here, and folks who listen closely to the podcast, we've covered some of the interesting stories that come out of being an observer on a boat far out at sea, right, because that person doesn't come in. 00:04:47 Speaker 3: Necessarily trusted all the time or inherently well. 00:04:52 Speaker 2: Liked, because you could say, you guys are catching too much of this, you can't fish for it anymore. 00:04:58 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, the ideas behind the observer program and what we do, it's that it's non biased data and that's how you try to and you want to make sure they're clear that you don't want to alter their fishing behavior. But if they don't understand what the program is, then yeah, there's a lot of resentment for you being there. They just want to go fishing and do their job and they don't want to have to deal with your scales and all your protocols and stuff like that, and there's safety protocols that. 00:05:21 Speaker 6: They need to abide by. 00:05:23 Speaker 7: So it's it can be it can be difficult, but a good observer will kind of get over that hump quickly. So, but it's it can be very challenging. But and the one thing about it, I will say, it's like it's not for everyone. I think the turnover at the federal level is like six months. I did it for three years before I came and start working for the Division Arm Fisheries. 00:05:42 Speaker 6: So obviously I was like a grizzly veteran by then. 00:05:45 Speaker 7: And you got to love everything about fishing to do it and be good at it, you have to be obsessed with fishing, and luckily I am so. 00:05:53 Speaker 2: And that's that's the only way you're gonna get over that hump too. Like you got to connect with those people on the boat. Make if not friends, but you got to make communication fast. 00:06:03 Speaker 7: Absolutely, and in fact, I am really good friends with a lot you know. As evidence is yesterday when we're in the field and we saw that harpom would go off and steam off black smoke. I knew that guy, I knew it. So I text him. He's like, yeah, I saw a tune of fish right over here, and you're at STEMA, So that's pretty cool to be able to do and see that. 00:06:19 Speaker 3: Yeah for sure, all right, Ben Gehagen. 00:06:22 Speaker 8: Yeah, I am also a biologist at Division Marine Fisheries. I am currently the recreational fisheries program leader. So I have a small staff and he said, you met Matt out in the field with us. He's one of my staff members. And we got four more, and we in Massachusetts do a fair number of things with our recreational program. 00:06:42 Speaker 1: A big component of that is doing the m RIP survey, so that's the way we had to do dock. 00:06:47 Speaker 8: Side interviews, and then there's a follow up telephone interview that's administered by the federal government, but we estimate all the effort and catch of a lot of the recreational species that way by going out and sending staff out to interview pe well, like at Cashman's Landing. That's one of our prime spots up here on the North shore where you guys visited today or yesterday to go interview some people. That's a really popular spot where we interview anglers. 00:07:11 Speaker 1: We also do a. 00:07:11 Speaker 8: Lot of public access work, rebuilding ramps and piers, getting. 00:07:17 Speaker 1: Walk in spots, beach access. 00:07:18 Speaker 8: Things like that so that our anglers can access the shoreline. And then we do a fair amount of making sure that we are staying in touch with our stakeholders. Just like Bill reached out to that commercial fisherman yesterday, you know, while like Chris was there on the boat with Matt, and Matt was working the phones and the radio the entire time in the last few days, trying to figure out where the straight password so we could buyd those and get some good fishing in if we couldn't find fishing on our own. And I was talking to people as well, texting. So it's great to work as a community. 00:07:46 Speaker 1: It's kind of a. 00:07:47 Speaker 8: Big part of what we're trying to do with the fisheries program is build that idea of a community with our four hire captains, our recreational anglers, about our biological staff, like everybody had the Division Marine Fisheries, so we're all working together improved that resource. 00:08:01 Speaker 2: And Ben what yeah, I guess quick question just to set set this up, the is mass Fisheries part of like Mass fish and Wildlife or how's it? How's it structured in the state of mass Everybody, as you. 00:08:20 Speaker 8: Know, how you've been around everybody, Every state is a little bit different. So here in Massachusetts we have a Department of Fishing Game it's inside uh what masters, I don't know I've ever since. 00:08:29 Speaker 1: In other states it's like secretariats, it's really weird. 00:08:32 Speaker 8: So think there's the governor, then there are secretaries and they have a secretariat under it. 00:08:35 Speaker 1: So we're with Energy and. 00:08:36 Speaker 8: Environmental Affairs, Department of Fishing Game, and then we are a division or division marine Fisheries. There's a division of Ecological Restoration. And then there's the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife, which is our inland fisheries folks and wildlife biologists. 00:08:51 Speaker 1: And then we have an Office of Fishing and Voting Access as well. Okay, we get these four kind of groups under the Department of Fishing Game. 00:08:58 Speaker 2: And then in Massachusetts it's like we all went on and got our bizarrely even for a non resident ten dollars marine Fisheries stamp or saltwater Fishery stamp ye or permit or validation or whatever it is. But it's online, easy to find and it's ten bucks. You should just get it if you drive through the state. That is what part of your funding. How does Massachusetts work? 00:09:31 Speaker 1: It's pretty cool. 00:09:32 Speaker 8: A lot of states and this is kind of a federally mandated thing about fifteen years ago sixteen years ago where either states could create a saltwater license or the Feds were going to have their own registry and they were going to charge ten bucks. So a lot of states did the license, some states didn't. Still they still don't have a license. But in Massachusetts, not only did we do the ten dollars license, but we created a dedicated fund. 00:09:56 Speaker 1: So we have this dedicated fund. 00:09:57 Speaker 8: If your ten dollars goes straight to marine fishery, it has to be used to improve recreational fishing, and at least a third of it has to be used on public access, which is a huge I think a huge deal, especially in Massachusetts where you guys, as we go up and down fishing, you see how hard public access could be with the amount of houses on the shoreline, you know. So it's great that we can go out and create sites for people to access the beach, fish rip, bo rams, all of that. And so we pay for some staff, we pay for research, we pay for restoration. Big part is public access, and then we also pay for research. 00:10:32 Speaker 1: And that, you know. 00:10:33 Speaker 8: So we have state funding as well that goes into recreational fisheries. 00:10:37 Speaker 1: We have some federal funding that goes into. 00:10:39 Speaker 8: Recreational fisheries, but that saltwater license money has allowed us to expand what we do staff wise and project wise immensely, and especially when we talk about special research projects like you guys were helping us with the last few days. That's a huge part of that is coming from that saltwater license money. 00:11:00 Speaker 1: Got it. 00:11:00 Speaker 2: And then overall picture, uh, you know, most states are funded primarily at least the money that they use. 00:11:09 Speaker 3: To match for federal dollars. 00:11:14 Speaker 2: It's all coming from license and tag revenue sales is a mass kind of the same way. 00:11:19 Speaker 8: Yeah, we have we use this for federal match, which is great, the wall brow and all that, so we get to go turn around and use this money to match with federal funding because it's. 00:11:29 Speaker 1: It's never been federalized, so we can use it for match. So it is a big way we do that. 00:11:33 Speaker 2: But mass isn't like you're not pulling cash out of the general pool tax dollars. 00:11:37 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, we do as well, Yeah we do. Yeah, we do as well. But you know, we're a small state. 00:11:45 Speaker 8: We're kind of stuck in that lowest bracket of wallet bro so almost every year we're fully maxed out unless we see a really big boost and license sales, which is probably unrealistic level license sales were probably won'tever step up here in that it's still a small state relatively. 00:12:03 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. 00:12:05 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think like really the topic here, and we'll talk about. 00:12:12 Speaker 3: The research is. 00:12:16 Speaker 2: You're a state on the ocean, on the Atlantic, and so every species, I. 00:12:23 Speaker 3: Assume doesn't just solely belong to. 00:12:27 Speaker 2: The state of Massachusetts, right, Like every species out there that folks are angling for is connected to states to the north and south, and and a lot of species to the entire Atlantic seaboard. 00:12:42 Speaker 7: Correct, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, And Stripe Pass is obviously a perfect example of one. It's Massachusetts is home for its summer grounds. This is where they all come to feed, not all, but of the majority of the population comes up here in the summer. And but on that way, it's you know, comes all the way from like Virginia and the Chesapeake. 00:13:02 Speaker 6: Bay area and the winter areas. 00:13:05 Speaker 7: Now it used to be more even closer to North Carolina, but now it's shift a little bit further north. Now it's like Virginia. They go into the estuaries to Chesapeake Hudson, Delaware to spawn, and then they all come up the coast and they come up to us, and so everybody gets a shot at them and it is the single most important recreational fish and sought after fish on the East Coast. 00:13:27 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's straight bass are a great example that we have a lot of other species that do it, and I think we talked briefly about it, but this all a lot of those species are managed by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission, so we have our state level management, but a lot of our fraud management mandates come from ASNFC, and then we make state level decisions and regulations around it. 00:13:48 Speaker 1: But it is cool. It is like that straight bass, as. 00:13:52 Speaker 8: Bill was saying, is like that fish that you think of it as your fish, but it's everybody's fish because it's passing through all these different waters. We should be thinking about the ways it really unites us. And it's interesting because you know, Bill's talking about us, like the summary grounds here and everybody up and down the ship coast gets a shot. 00:14:09 Speaker 1: So it's very important to Massachusetts. 00:14:11 Speaker 8: Like we back of the envelope calculations, we think it's like six hundred million dollars a year in economic activity in Massachusetts alone, So that's big money for the coastal communities in Massachusetts. 00:14:24 Speaker 1: But we also have a huge impact. 00:14:25 Speaker 8: Coast wide on the population, because in any given year, we have the third highest commercial quota. 00:14:31 Speaker 1: And that's just locked in. Every year we're gonna be the third highest, but. 00:14:34 Speaker 8: Our recreational effort and mortality is typically like first or second in the entire range. And it's like not it's usually like us Maryland and maybe in New Jersey, and then there's a big drop off. 00:14:46 Speaker 1: It's not like just like we're a little poka head. 00:14:49 Speaker 8: It's we're usually way way up there millions of fish. 00:14:53 Speaker 5: Uh yeah, Chris, I was just gonna say part of that too. 00:14:56 Speaker 4: And you fish for stripers in other states, so you know, you and you probably experienced the last few days that people here fishing them, fishing for them in a different style and way. And then that that time period that they're here in our waters, say roughly May into October, sometimes even later, it's a big chunk of chunk of the year, and and so and plus there's fish that are hanging around, there's fish that are migrating by that then have to migrate back. So you know, as you kind of said in your intro, like this is a great place to be in terms of fishing for these. 00:15:33 Speaker 2: Things, and Chris, you're you're a conservation professional, but you're not a wildlife professionals fisheries professional, and you grew up here, and what what's your take on the fishery itself? 00:15:48 Speaker 3: Like where are we at for population? 00:15:51 Speaker 4: So you know, as a as an angler like I am, we shouldn't even say. 00:15:56 Speaker 3: Population, which is just where we like is fishing good? 00:15:59 Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw like one of the things I and I do have a science background, so I always catch myself like my experience is so subjective, and how I fish is a lot different than a lot of other people fish. 00:16:12 Speaker 5: I like to be really place based in my hunting. Am I fishing? 00:16:16 Speaker 4: So where we are here today, I spend most of the time, so I know a lot so many of like the little nooks and crannies where how fish moved through this particular system when they show up, when they typically leave, when I can where I can, like if i'm the fishing is really slow, where I might be able to find a few little schoolies that I can get into. So in the eighteen nineteen years that I've been living here, I may have seen a big sort of change. When I first got here, it was gangbusters. I caught my biggest striper very close to where we are right here, which was over fifty inches in a time of year when the fish, the big fish aren't supposed to be here, like that's the common knowledge, but they were, and they were here for a period of time over those years. But those those fish aren't here anymore. Those fish are gone. 00:17:13 Speaker 2: And just just for a reference, like a fifty in stripers generally like weight, size. 00:17:18 Speaker 4: How much, well, it depends the time of year, So this is a fit. This is a migratory fish, so this was in May, so it had migrated from where it's wintering ground, so it was a little bit leaner than if I'd caught that fish this time year in July, so it was probably in the forty low forties typically a fish of that size, which these guys can answer no better better than I. But you're probably talking like a fish that is over eighteen years old, and that's obviously a lot of trips back up and down the coast. 00:17:51 Speaker 2: So like in Fatty when it's prime gorging though over in October. 00:17:58 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, fifty plus. 00:18:00 Speaker 7: Yeah, the rule of thumb is fifty inches at the end of the season. To be up to fifty pounds. It tends to be a little bit leaner up here, especially, like Chris said, in the beginning of the season, after they spawn and they make that migration up here, there lean Like some of these fish that we caught yesterday, they were like forty plus inches. 00:18:14 Speaker 6: Those are pretty lean fish. You catch that fish, you. 00:18:17 Speaker 7: Know, the end of the season, it's that forty two inch striper could be thirty eight pounds. 00:18:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and the fish that we were catching, there were some that were significantly fatter than others, but nothing that had like a big beer belly on it. 00:18:36 Speaker 8: Right right, it's even like that really big fish that we were talking about, that nice garth and the big head like shoulders coming in. Yeah, but it hadn't developed like a big belly yet, so it was fattening up and it was getting there. But yeah, if we had caught that fish two months from now, it's a mid September, it would have been had another four or five pounds on it probably. 00:18:54 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:18:54 Speaker 7: I've been fishing up here for over twenty five plus years, not too and I've done a lot of bass fishing and I've. 00:18:59 Speaker 6: Yet to get a fifty. 00:19:00 Speaker 7: But Ben and I were at a we're down in Jersey and we talked to some charter captains down there, and then he said he had but sixty to fifty pound fish already. 00:19:09 Speaker 6: I'm like what, but. 00:19:10 Speaker 8: He had one hundred and he had one hundred and thirty or one hundred and forty fifties and like fit over fifty. 00:19:17 Speaker 7: Six sixties right, okay, which is we just don't get that fish. But that's because he's fishing down where they spawned, so he's getting the fish on the tail. And after they'll come here, they eat all their herring and mackerel and gorge up and they get. 00:19:29 Speaker 1: Bulked up, falling and hitting down, all. 00:19:32 Speaker 7: Falling, eating the whole way down and then so it's a different fish. But so, I mean, you know that's that's a trophy. What Chris caught that fifty plus? 00:19:41 Speaker 4: Yeah, when he said that's like yeah, So those fish like that was a like those early season fish that lasted for I mean that was mid two thousands, and you know, on the different systems around here, those fish were present for four years or so and then they kind of drifted off and there were a lot more smaller fish, a bigger, broader mix of fish, and then recently, the last couple of years, We've got a lot of nice fish, forty inch plus fish. 00:20:10 Speaker 5: But we have not been catching the younger. 00:20:12 Speaker 4: Year class fish, what we call schoolies like those have definitely been fewer and far you know, fewer and far between, and you know, I we'll talk about it later, but they do mass or Division Marine Fisheries does do these citizen science projects where you know, we're tracking and I'm keeping track of some of the fish that I catch, and you know, most of the fish that this season that I've caught have been in the sort of twenty five to thirty five inch range, the real small fish. 00:20:46 Speaker 5: Maybe I got. 00:20:47 Speaker 4: One, and that sort of that's part of the reason BHA has been involved in this UH and involved with the Land States Marine Fisheries Amendment to the Fishery Management Plan. And you know why there's this sort of growing concern around this fishery because the younger year class of fish are not out there. And then on top of that, recruitment has been pretty poor the last few years, and so we're kind of concerned about the future of this fishery, meaning that. 00:21:25 Speaker 2: Like, I mean, here's the hard part, right, Like fishing is subjective, like I feel like the last two days of our fishing has been very good. 00:21:34 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I would be like, oh, yeah, kick an ass, this is great. 00:21:39 Speaker 1: Now. 00:21:39 Speaker 2: We went down and grabbed a captain off the dock last night and we, you know, just did your typical fishermen bs. 00:21:48 Speaker 3: I'm there on the dock. 00:21:50 Speaker 9: And he was like, oh, He's like, yeah, you guys are probably the only folks that really beat him up today. Yeah, And he's like, this was my worst day of the sea. 00:22:04 Speaker 1: Right. 00:22:04 Speaker 2: So it is like just like anywhere in a snapshot in time. 00:22:09 Speaker 3: It's just like anywhere where. 00:22:10 Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you can be relatively close to another boat fishing for the exact same thing, probably have the exact same stuff, and somebody's doing good and somebody's having the worst day ever. 00:22:23 Speaker 4: And that's why I qualify my experience because I spend so much time in this system. You know, I talk to people down say Cape Cod Buzzard's Bay. They might be into more small fish, and so it's a it's a real tough thing. And that's why being an angler advocate on the kind of the Rex side is a tough thing because everybody's experience is so different from one another. But back to you guys catching fish or being in the fish. Yesterday, I thought I didn't have bills number my phone. It turns out I did it. I have like under my like under the the work I identification of my on the number my contact list it says DMF badass fishermen. 00:23:10 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to pump anybody's tires here, but I've been fishing a long time and have got to have a lot of experiences, and. 00:23:21 Speaker 3: I was not ignorant to. 00:23:23 Speaker 2: The fact that these guys Ben and Bill know what they're doing, and we were benefiting from a lot, a lot of knowledge, a lot of knowledge. Yeah, yeah, very very pro level fishermen. So here's like the fun thing about the ocean or any fishery, right, it's like the how do we know? So Bill and Ben like, we have the anecdotal experience of all these fishermen out there, and it's your guys' job to be like right, wrong, maybe yeah. 00:23:59 Speaker 3: Right, how how do we know? 00:24:01 Speaker 6: Yeah? 00:24:02 Speaker 8: I mean that's always the before you drill right into how do we know? That's always the interesting thing is that I can you know, as the you know, the on the front line being like the faces of DMF and talking to English like we go into tackle shops so we hear people like and Chris is a very well informed recreational anguage. 00:24:17 Speaker 1: We get like the full gamut of everybody and. 00:24:19 Speaker 8: Telling that's exactly how good or bad the fishing is, and how good or bad that connection straight to them is like straight bass. 00:24:25 Speaker 1: Have a problem. 00:24:26 Speaker 8: I haven't caught fish this week, like you know, like or like this last month sucked, Like what's going on? 00:24:31 Speaker 1: Another guy? You go five towns over, like jump across into Buzzers Bay or something like that. They're like, holy, it's good. Yeah, I don't think you guys need to be worried about straight bass. Right. Let me tell you how good the fishing has been out here this year, you know. 00:24:43 Speaker 3: So it is, it's real and experiences are so. 00:24:48 Speaker 2: Different, right, It's like, Oh, I've been straight bass fishing for a year. I come to this same rock after work, I fish for an hour and I never catch anything, And this week I got two fish, like like something's going on. It's the best fishery ever all of a sudden, right, Yeah. But then there's people who work really hard. They they kind of know their numbers. They know how much gas money they're throwing at things, how much time they're throwing at things, and. 00:25:19 Speaker 3: They're very confident in their. 00:25:21 Speaker 2: Ability to They have those spots kind of like we we hit this week where it's like, oh, okay, I haven't been catch him, but I know if I go here, there's always bass there and I'll catch him. And if they go there and they're not there, they're like, okay, now something's. 00:25:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it's like. 00:25:38 Speaker 8: It's like one of the things pulling you're talking about the podcast or like the biologist curtain, like that conversation of like how do we get this person? Bill and I have this conversation all the time, like how do we get people to look beyond their place yep, and like try and understand that their experience is one of many. So it's like something we think about a lot and trying to communicate that so hopefully we can do a good job. You've asked that, but but it's your chance. 00:26:01 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. 00:26:02 Speaker 8: But for straight bass, we have a bunch of different sources of information that come in a big part of that is that m RIP survey I was talking about, where you know, every state's doing it and we're going coast wide. It's a survey that has its issues. For straight bass, it's one of the really one of the better species because they're so frequently encountered. So we have a really good data stream coming in. So that's a big part of it is like what are people catching and what size of fish are people catching. We augment that. All the states augment that by also getting age information. And here in Massachusetts we have a special program that's called the Sportfish Angler Data Collection Team, And if you're a Master Uset's resident, you want to sign up, you can do that and you go out and collect biological information about the straight bass you're getting it. We'll mail you envelopes and other sampling the gear so you can go out, take some scales right down all the information about that fish, where you caught it, when you caught it, what size it was, and give us scales and then we'll age them. And so now we have age data that goes into the stock assessment as well, so we know, you know, trying to manage any population, we need to know how. 00:27:07 Speaker 1: Many are we think there are, how many are getting. 00:27:10 Speaker 8: Caught, and what that age structure is that that population demography is so we get that information. 00:27:16 Speaker 1: And then Chris talked about recruitment. The major spawning. 00:27:20 Speaker 8: Areas which are the Delaware of the Chess, all the rivers in the Chesapeak Bay and then Hudson have surveys saying surveys that go on during the summer. 00:27:28 Speaker 1: After the story, bass spawn in the spring. 00:27:31 Speaker 8: And these are long term indices and there are estimates of how successful spawning efforts were because there is a relationship, like the kind of holy grail of fishery science is chasing around these stock recruitment relationships, being like we have X number of adults, is it going to give us why it predicted. 00:27:48 Speaker 1: Like how many? 00:27:49 Speaker 3: Why? 00:27:49 Speaker 1: Number of babies there will be? 00:27:51 Speaker 8: And some of those species of relationships are really non existence, so they're okay, straight past is pretty like there is a relationship, but it's very environmentally driven, very very environmentally driven. They have a really narrow set of conditions they need to successfully. 00:28:08 Speaker 1: They can go and spawn, you can have a lot of them spawning, but. 00:28:12 Speaker 8: To actually have those eggs mature, hatch and larva survive to a point where their fingerlings and then their survivorship really starts to go up do you have to have a really narrow set of good, good conditions and the right things happening both temperature wise and flow wise in these tributaries, or it does not its est rais or it doesn't work out really well. And that seems to be the real issue we have going on right now, and. 00:28:37 Speaker 3: Just that survey, that's that's happening in these spawning. 00:28:40 Speaker 8: So that's like another input into like how many fish do we think we have? 00:28:44 Speaker 2: Right And that's that's like the thing that gets extrapolated because and really it's because it's a long term survey. It's been going on long enough to where you can kind of be like, okay, within a certain margin of this is how many fish we're dealing with. 00:29:03 Speaker 8: Right It's it's like saying when you do a stock assessment, they're saying, this is all the data we had in the past, and we're gonna use it to project, like ten years forward, what do we think is going to happen in the next ten years. And as you go further out those intervals like that, your confidence you have about that and what we think the future might be gets wider. Typically, but a big predictor of what we think is going to happen five ten years from now, is what are like the last five years of these recruitment indicies, these young of the year surveys, what do they say? And then that gets fed into when because typically if you have like a really great year in chest peak, somewhere like two or to three years later up here, you'll start seeing catch rates go up because everybody's getting like Chris is talking about those small fishes schools, they'll start out twelve to eighteen inches. They'll start showing up Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and everybody's like they're not keepers, but everybody's in fish. 00:29:53 Speaker 1: All the time. 00:29:53 Speaker 8: So we do the interviews, they say, Okay, yeah, like you know, we're getting a lot of small fish. 00:29:58 Speaker 1: Now that's not part of the fishery yet, Like it's not. 00:30:00 Speaker 8: Like really part of the target number we're managing for is spawning stock biomass. 00:30:05 Speaker 1: Which is the weight of adult females we think is out there. 00:30:09 Speaker 8: But we can factor that in and so that those are things that are kind of projecting. So if you're gonna say, like what's gonna look like, what's our spawning stock biomass can look like five years from now, you'd say, well, what was the recruitment induses leading into that, all the recruitment indosies leading into what we'll be out there and what do we see for the catch, Like that's like our next step in predicting what things will be. And then you get to like actual landings of fish, harvested fish, commercial harvest things like that. 00:30:33 Speaker 1: That'll feed in. Effort plays into it. Effort plays. 00:30:36 Speaker 8: Yeah, so there's not just landings, it's you know, obviously post release mortality, Like we've been working where it's like that effort, how much effort is. 00:30:43 Speaker 1: There and how many fish are being encountered and released? 00:30:45 Speaker 2: So Bill, from your perspective, Uh, I'm waying with some serious foundation. 00:30:53 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, got deep out. 00:30:58 Speaker 2: Well, I'm spent enough time I'm around fishermen right for to hear everybody in the back of my mind being like bullshit, Bill, Like what's your experience tell you? Like, where's where's the fishery at right now? And then just because I can't ever ask just one question, what is the like from your perspective, like the awareness level of fishermen out there on the water as far as. 00:31:26 Speaker 7: Like, yeah, I think everybody's touched on this a little bit, but I agree, like right now we're not like the house isn't burning down yet, but we're at a point where we need to be concerned. This lack of recruitment that's coming out of the chestbeak specifically is starting to put us in a little bit of a precarious position. And so and managers have responded and they've put in stricter you know, slot limits and daily bags and and and then for good reason, I think, so, yeah, I mean we're seeing everything and so you know, kind of touch on like you know, everybody sees what's in their backyard, and there may be a lot of fish, may not be a lot of fish, but we have better and I have a network up and down these coasts. We really do have a good sense of what's going on. And yeah, it's it's the fishery is not in this best spot right now, and that's why we're doing a lot of this work right now that we are doing. 00:32:18 Speaker 2: And even like if you went out on the water and had a day like we had yesterday where we didn't have necessarily a ton of fish, it wasn't like the thirty or fifty fish days that people talk about sometimes with striper fishing, but we caught some like quality fish and everybody on the boat cat fish. 00:32:41 Speaker 3: Would you be like, oh, it's not doing well. 00:32:44 Speaker 7: Yeah, no that I mean for me, the last few days are slow. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. 00:32:49 Speaker 8: We were like we looked and smiles at each other because like after that, like after we were dead the day and you get it and you guys are all pumped up. We were happy with the day. No, we like we got what we wanted. 00:32:59 Speaker 5: But we looked at like, yeah, I think the phrase they don't know any better. 00:33:07 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it was a good day. And I mean the other thing that I made me happy is that's exactly how we planned it. The first day. We're gonna go out and we're gonna pound in the rocks and get some little fish, get some numbers up, get the footage that we needed, and have the conversations we needed. And then once you guys are like yeah, we're pretty good, then like, okay, now let's see if we can get big fish. 00:33:27 Speaker 6: And we like specifically went to there. 00:33:29 Speaker 7: Knew we weren't gonna have big numbers, but the chance of getting a big forty plus fish was that's what we tried to do. 00:33:35 Speaker 6: So that was great. 00:33:36 Speaker 7: But in terms of yeah, I mean we've had yeah, much better days. Yeah, but it was good fishing. 00:33:43 Speaker 8: You know. 00:33:44 Speaker 2: That's an interesting thing though, when you talk about like the economics of wildlife, right, you have your residence. Within that pool of residents, you have people that sometimes fish, people who call themselves anglers, and then within that group you have the people who are actual anglers that are going out and doing a lot and they're very aware of the fishery. 00:34:07 Speaker 3: And then you have this big wump of non residents who. 00:34:11 Speaker 2: Can come in like I just did and be like, holy shit, this is amazing, this is great. 00:34:15 Speaker 1: It's right. 00:34:16 Speaker 8: Last year we had to do an emergency action, right, which is like the third time in all of history for all species of America in Lant State's marine fisheries is done in the emergency action to narrow this lot from twenty eight to thirty five inches to twenty eight to thirty one inches coastwide. I mean, it took three weeks of my time. It was just like when that happened, it was I was just into, like, how do we communicate this writing FAQ's signed like graphic design all right, Like talking to people, talking to charter captains trying to like put out fires. You just feel like it's the center of the world. And Bill's you know, we're Bill and I are talking. We're all like talking to like people were like Chris, who's like on the policy side, and it's drilling in on this and like it's like the center of our world. And I'd go to Surfland and I talk to a guy who has a boat at my marina who fishes for stripers fairly often. I like, so, what do you think about the regulation change? It's like regulation change, what. 00:35:05 Speaker 1: Are you talking about? 00:35:06 Speaker 8: You know, like so, yeah, there's like this huge pool of people who fish all the time, but. 00:35:10 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't it's not right there, that's exactly. 00:35:14 Speaker 8: Yeah. 00:35:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's crazy. 00:35:17 Speaker 2: The charter the guide industry, right, like at the end of the day, what they care about is like that person having a good time on the boat, So. 00:35:25 Speaker 3: They don't necessarily need to know that it was a slow day. Yeah, they've got smiles on their face and. 00:35:30 Speaker 4: That that in itself is a really complex thing because the way the higher fleet operates. 00:35:39 Speaker 5: Is pretty wide and it varies from state to state. 00:35:43 Speaker 4: So in a state like Massachusetts and this is like there, Well, I shouldn't say that anywhere. Most up and down the Striper coast there are four hire captains that operate almost strictly a catch. 00:35:54 Speaker 5: And release business. 00:35:55 Speaker 4: They're going out, they're hooking fish and they're releasing them, and so that that success is oftentimes measured on like the quality of that day, how many fish they caught, or the experience and all that kind of stuff. And then there's other for higher fleet folks who they measure success as fish in the cooler, fish going home. And within that spectrum there are the clientele that have are looking for one of those things or someplace in the middle. So that becomes a very complex thing. And on the policy side, when there's a four higher community that is looking at this as a casual release fishery and then a four higher fleet that is looking at it as you know, bringing filat's home, it's a real real challenge. And then obviously then there's the huge recreational side, because at the end of the day, the only thing that fishery managers can do is somehow limit mortality. It'd be great if we could bolster environmental conditions that the stripers need for spawning success, but we can't. So we all we can do is restrict how many fish we kill. And that's where like a lot of their research is coming in, particularly in that the release mortality. How many fish are unintentionally dying or needlessly dying upon release. 00:37:25 Speaker 5: And that's so what is the. 00:37:30 Speaker 3: Healthiest bag limits? The most liberal bag limits? 00:37:35 Speaker 2: Everybody at this table is seen for stripers in their lifetime and compared to what it is now. 00:37:42 Speaker 7: Two fish at twenty eight yeah, yeah, twenty eight and over yeah, to fish too, fish okay, and that that was when. 00:37:50 Speaker 1: Two thousand to twenty fifteen, twenty seven, twenty. 00:37:54 Speaker 7: Eighteen, yeah yeah, but it was done there. 00:37:59 Speaker 6: Yeah yeah. 00:37:59 Speaker 3: Is that up the whole stripe or range or is that just mass we. 00:38:04 Speaker 8: There can be very localized variations. There's something that was going on for a period of years. So conservation equivalency, where if a state wanted to deviate from the coast wide regulation and could. 00:38:16 Speaker 1: Show that they were going to have. 00:38:17 Speaker 8: An equivalent amount of harvest or mortality, I should say, because I had to include post release mortality, that they could change the regulations. 00:38:26 Speaker 1: But because it's that migratory fish. 00:38:29 Speaker 8: Because it's so popular, the ASNFC has been very cognizanve than like, very driven to have a coast wide regulation for this fish. So typically it's kind of been there's some little carbouts, like the Chesapeake Bay almost all of the larger breeding sized fish leave. They're only in Chesapeake Bay from maybe March to the beginning of May, so it's like if you're twenty eight and over, like you're just not going to get keeper fish. 00:38:55 Speaker 1: So they would have like a bay wide. 00:38:57 Speaker 8: Regulation, but for the ocean coastal waters, it's pretty much the same, okay. 00:39:03 Speaker 3: And then during that same time, what was the commercial. 00:39:05 Speaker 7: Take, Well, it's changed, but it was it's changed a lot. Like back the most like robust was I think it was sixty fish thirty four or up a day. So that's when in the heyday, back in the early nineties, and it's been rationeting down to the point now where it's fifteen fish, thirty five and up. 00:39:27 Speaker 1: Early two thousands, yeah, not early nineties, early two thousands. Was there were you guys were operating that in the early nineties. 00:39:34 Speaker 7: Yeah, late nineties, late nineties, yeah, definitely, Yeah, late nineties and then but then it's been slowly rationting down to now in the number of days that you could fish. Now it was like five days a week, and then now it's down to you'rely allowed in Massachusetts of fish two days a week commercially, and it's fifteen fish thirty five inches inches and. 00:39:53 Speaker 3: So big change, right, I mean hard to argue that. 00:40:03 Speaker 1: What. 00:40:05 Speaker 2: So now the kind of condensed picture is we're seeing some gaps in our age classes. There's like that, just that steady flow of fish in across like the breadth of sizes ages I have to have some big, big holes in it. It's like a ladder missing some rungs essentially. As because of that, we're adjusting regulations in a bunch of different ways. Slot limit being one, total bag limit being another. The you know, something I don't think about because it is something that's way more on the saltwater commercial fishery side is days that you can fish, right which, like in Alaska they'd be like seasons, right, but a season's a three day season or a five day season. 00:40:58 Speaker 3: Here in mass you're doing like a Monday and a Wednesday season. 00:41:02 Speaker 6: Tuesday Wednesday right now. 00:41:03 Speaker 2: For bas Yeah, so every week Tuesday Wednesday. If you're a commercial angler, those are your days to adhere to that commercial regulation of thirty five and over and a fifteen fish bag one up. 00:41:21 Speaker 1: That's from about to fish for sure, to fish from. 00:41:24 Speaker 6: Your yeah right, yeah, yeah right. 00:41:27 Speaker 7: So to really key part of that is that it's also quota managed. So that's the other thing. So when you bring a fish to market, that fish is tagged and that's reported, and we have our statistics program at d MF and they will track landings and they'll up to a certain amount. So it used to be I think the largest the quotas was like one point two million pounds and now what. 00:41:51 Speaker 1: Is It's like six six six fifty six. 00:41:54 Speaker 7: Eighty I think it is like a thousand pounds. So it's really like the size of the fishery. Not only the days have been limited, but the amount of quota that it's allowed to be harvested has been cut in half. 00:42:04 Speaker 8: And just like so the emergency action that we referenced two years ago to shrink that slot, they followed that up with going through the full public hearing process in the fall of twenty twenty three and then rule making in the spring of twenty twenty four and that included a commercial reduction as well, so they stuck to that twenty to thirty one inch sloth recreational anglers, but recognizing they also didn't have the commercial sector writting down there. Landing as well contribute to conservation. So there has been reduction. So we have a new quota in Massachusetts. 00:42:32 Speaker 4: And I we should probably not everyone is aware that this fishery has previously crashed and has recovered. So like the late seventies, in their early eighties we kind of bottomed out. The same story plays out played out not many small fish, and so restrictions were put in place. I mean, they did utilize moratoriums. But so here we are in an overfish state and we have this very narrow slot limit, and then that slot limit exists in order to protect a particular age class of fish that was pretty robust. So giving that that sort of narrow or that particular age class was at twenty fifteen twenty fifteen to have better opportunities for spawning. 00:43:23 Speaker 5: So in the eighties that sort of approach also worked. 00:43:27 Speaker 4: They were protecting a couple of different age classes of fish, and those generations were able to rebuild the stock completely, so instead like to the nineties and two thousands we were referring to earlier. So hopefully, you know, with this restriction, with some environmental luck, will have some good young year classes. And you know, this this particular age class, that twenty fifteen age class can do what it can do to, you know, help build the stock back up. So there's like there is methods to it and reasons for why it's a narrower slide. It's not just controlling efforts. It's sort of protecting that age class, which is kind of neat when you think about it. And you know, I should also mention that of all the Atlantic, all the fish in the Atlantic that the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries manages, this is probably the most researched fish. I mean, I can't really mean, is there anything that gets this much attention? 00:44:27 Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, well sturgeon, but yeah, so a lot of attention, a lot of of of research and and you know. 00:44:41 Speaker 4: And these guys are too modest to say it, but Massachusetts is doing some of the best stuff when it comes to the research, and that research is going to inform fisheries managers on the stripe ass boards and to hopefully make better decisions and also say because these guys can't that the ASNFC stripe pass board. Like, There's been times, and it's a fair criticism, there's been times where they haven't been very responsive to uh we'll say downturns in the stock assessment. They weren't responsive and they weren't taking necessary steps because it's a political process. Now, in recent years, thanks to pressure from the rec community, I would I would credit it to the rec community, conservation organizations and the education that's been done. I think they are listening and they they took this emergency action that that Ben talked about. 00:45:42 Speaker 5: So they're being more responsive. 00:45:44 Speaker 4: They're listening to the to the to the research, and so hopefully, you know, we're gonna repeat history and bring this the stock back. But it's a complicated, it's a political process. There's in fighting within the community. Every state has its own representatives on this board, and within every every group of the state's representative, there are sometimes different points of view. 00:46:13 Speaker 2: So well, I don't I don't get that. I mean fisheries, I mean fishermen always get along. 00:46:18 Speaker 10: There's it's not just fishermen board. 00:46:22 Speaker 8: There's three representatives from the state. Okay, So there's a management representative, and so for the Division of Ring Fisheries for a long time that was doctor Mike Armstrong who's retiring now, and so Nikolin the Surge will be our new representative. But then we have a congressional appointee. Yeah, we have a congressional liaison who's been Sarah Peak, but she's also retiring. And then you also have a governor's appointee. So you have two political people and one scientific person, and so you can have basically a null vote if you can't get people to agree, just like a state could be like, yeah, we're not going to vote on this, you know, we'll say because we can't even agree what we want to do. Or maybe this scientific person gets completely outvoted by the other two political persons people and they ends up being like a politically biased vote rather than scientifically best practically formed vote. 00:47:12 Speaker 4: This wasn't always the way this changed. I guess it was a late eighties of around I think the third change the amendment plan or management plan around that area. But yeah, we've been in this situation where the Fisheries has actually trained fisheries managers. The scientists have sort of like their their voice has sort of been minimized over time. And it's not to say that every state's making are not advocating for the resource. It's that's not always the case. But this has been a like this has been part of the problem. 00:47:46 Speaker 2: Well, you got a lot of the things anything public, right, You have a lot of different interests with different levels of investment in a resource. 00:47:57 Speaker 1: Right. 00:47:57 Speaker 2: So it's like one thing that rives me crazy when we hear out West a lot is like, well, everybody knows that private lands managed better than public land, And I'm like, well, is that a fair comparison? Right, Like, no, you don't have everyone in the world with a thought interest in how you should manage your living room. 00:48:21 Speaker 8: Right. 00:48:23 Speaker 2: Right, If I said, Bill, I don't really like the flow in here. I think we should move some ship around, you get to say, wife, So what what's happening on on on the on the study side, like the the things the angler can affect and. 00:48:48 Speaker 3: You're your research man. 00:48:50 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, So we're doing a lot of straight back research. As Chris said, our most recent project has been about post release mortality and going back to what you're saying about like people being informed or recreation, Like you were asking about are people more informed now you were saying the recreational community. It is really cool because like I, in our kind of team of researchers, I'm often the one who goes out and talks to, especially with my position now, who goes and talks to like fishing clubs and charter. 00:49:16 Speaker 1: Captains and stuff like that. 00:49:17 Speaker 8: And I'll get up and I'll talk about what's going on with straight bass and a big part of the story now and we'll dive into it is post release mortality. And for years, you know, it's been like recreational fishermen saying we're not the problem. Commercial fisheries are the problem. This is the problem, but anything but recreational fishermen. Now I'll talk about it. I'll talk about how post release mortality is a huge issue for this fishery, and somebody will start being like, ah, bullshit, like and then somebody else will stand up and be like, no, it's us. We have to own it, like you're you're wrong, Like you you got to read the science and understand, like we. 00:49:49 Speaker 1: Need to take care of this. 00:49:51 Speaker 8: So it is cool like to see the increased participation and increase awareness. 00:49:55 Speaker 3: So listen, our first track, I was like we got all that for video. 00:50:00 Speaker 8: And I was like callous spending way too much time on like this is what we're gonna get. Oh boy. 00:50:07 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:50:08 Speaker 8: So so one of the things, like Chris was saying, like, so we have the environmental issues, which really and I was kind of alluding to it straight bass for successful spawning, like they can spawn and have successful egg hatching over like six or seven degrees eight degrees centigree, but to have really high like hatch rates and like a lot of those eggs successfully hashing, it's. 00:50:28 Speaker 1: Like two or three degrees really narrow window, right, and then they need. 00:50:32 Speaker 8: To have the right environmental conditions for after they hatch, so there's lots of food for them, which is a whole other thing that has to happen right environmentally, So we can't it's really hard for us to affect that. A layer on top of that climate change layer on top of that the Chestnut Bay Watershed having nearly eighteen million people now so everything that goes with that, So we can't handle. 00:50:51 Speaker 1: That as of fishery. 00:50:52 Speaker 8: What we do see happening is that because like and I came in I grew up up in Long Island Sound, so further south than these guys. And when I started fishing, it was like you went fishing for bluefish in the nineties because there were not like early nineties. 00:51:09 Speaker 1: Because they were not straight past to target. They just weren't plentiful enough target. 00:51:13 Speaker 8: You hear you catch one, or you'd hear somebody catch me, You're like, sweet, somebody cuts straight past. I maybe tomorrow I'll catch a straight past. I mean the summer, at some point I'll catch one. 00:51:20 Speaker 1: And then by the late two. 00:51:23 Speaker 8: Thousands, I was like, I am not taking out my camera unless that fish is over thirty five pounds. 00:51:28 Speaker 3: I don't care. 00:51:28 Speaker 8: Like that's like that's what happened in like ten years. 00:51:31 Speaker 1: It was just like that was the change that happened. 00:51:34 Speaker 8: But I also saw people who didn't start fishing as young as I did and didn't. 00:51:39 Speaker 1: Go through those years of really tough. 00:51:41 Speaker 8: Fishing, who didn't know what was going on, being like, you know, this fishing is amazing. Yeah, like joining the peak, I'm gonna go out three days a week and I'm gonna take my two over twenty eight every single day. It's like, what are you doing? 00:51:57 Speaker 1: Man? 00:51:57 Speaker 8: But like so that's like what we're now. We're going back down on this side of it, and so we're trying you have all these people who joined at the peaking don't really understand, we're trying to educate them. But especially in the in you know, maybe New York and uh, it's really a catch and really the ease fishery. There's more harvest, more interest in harvest and keeping fish and. 00:52:15 Speaker 1: Like meat fishing in the Mid Atlantic. 00:52:17 Speaker 8: And I'm not saying meat fishing is like a derogatory term, just with like there's a far more higher valuation of like taking a fish home and eating it as part of the culture more. I think, especially around straight Pass once you get New New Jersey. 00:52:31 Speaker 1: Delaware, Virginia, Maryland, all those states. 00:52:35 Speaker 8: But there's just everybody up here loves to fish for straight Pass, but we tend to eat some different fish and it's not as much of a focus on harvesting. So what's happened is that, well, harvest tends to be pretty static year to year and it's a manageable level, and we have like these really good direct controls on harvest. We hope, you know, people have to follow the regulations, but we can say here's your length limits, here's how many fish you can put in your back. We have like real levers we can pull as managers. The the unseen thing here is the post release mortality. So all these fish are being caught and caught again, you guys probably saw a fish that. 00:53:09 Speaker 3: Which is basically unseen for any form of fishing anywhere. 00:53:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. 00:53:15 Speaker 8: So then like we're getting the tools now that we'll talk about that to like get a better. 00:53:19 Speaker 1: Handle on this. 00:53:21 Speaker 8: But what we didn't, what we can't have a really hard time controlling, is how often are people going to go out and fish and catch and release fish? 00:53:29 Speaker 3: And so, yeah, I mean what you're talking about, right, is a culture change. 00:53:32 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:53:34 Speaker 8: I mean if if you want to have to lower post release mortality, you can either get like a voluntary culture change through education and hopefully conservation and stewardship, or you know what some people are starting to freak out about now. And again, I think that Bill said the house isn't burning down yet, so I think it's a little preempted to be talking about it is like a no target closure, like actually saying like now, not only are we not going to allow. 00:54:02 Speaker 1: Harvest, but you should not be out. 00:54:04 Speaker 3: You can't you should not be targeting straight bass right, which which. 00:54:09 Speaker 1: Is also impossible to enforce. 00:54:11 Speaker 3: It's impossible to enforce. 00:54:13 Speaker 6: You know. 00:54:13 Speaker 2: We do that for bull trout in Montana on the vast majority of waters, and you know, it's like, well, it's a pretty big fly. Rod coilers at the same time, cut throat eat everything. And if that's the only rod somebody's got in the closet, you know, it's like you can't tell them not to fish at all. 00:54:34 Speaker 3: Right, so what is how are you doing the study? 00:54:39 Speaker 8: Yeah, so we're so just to lay a little bit more groundwork. What all the numbers in the Stock Assessment point to now is that in a given year, eight to eleven, twelve percent of mortality is commercial. That all the rest of that ninety percent of mortality is creational, and sometimes as much as fifty or sixty percent of that could be post release mortality. So it's not harvest, it's people catching and releasing fish. And we have a there's a figure, there's a number we used or that the ASNFC uses to estimate post release mortality, and that's nine percent and that came from a DMF study that was done about twenty years ago. Before a lot of the tools that Bill and I use now all the time to do our studies. Came around where they got a bunch of small strap ass out of out of weirs in Rhode Island. We trucked him up here to sail a mass, put tags in them, and put him into a ti a tidal pond that we had a gate on. Kept him in there for a summer. People fished on them using fly rods, plugs, bait, all this other stuff. Saw like you know, recorded the numbers for everything they caught, and at the end of the year they drained the pond and sifted through all the mud to find bodies and tags and everything else, and came up with a number. 00:55:59 Speaker 1: This was like, okay, nine percent of these fish died afterwards. That was the number. 00:56:04 Speaker 8: And they were like, this is about small fish in this one thing, like, don't use this as a coast white estimate. No better number existed. So ASFC has been using this as a coast wide estimate for twenty years. So not only do we, I mean, we know that there's a lot of post release mortality, and like that's this big lever that we're trying to figure out. Can we can we even nudge it, you know, to try and help strip bass while maintaining as much opportunity as possible for people to fish for these things. But we need so the big the first step we are like, what's the actual number? 00:56:36 Speaker 1: Like, what's the real number? Is nine percent? Real? So it kind of started with circle hooks and jay. 00:56:43 Speaker 8: Hooks as we went down this road management wise, realizing recruitment was poor and we. 00:56:49 Speaker 1: Had spawning soccer biomass coming down. What can we do? 00:56:52 Speaker 8: They mandated, and really, I think a great proactive move. They said, circle hooks work for and a lot of fisheries we're gonna say if you're using live or dead, you. 00:57:00 Speaker 1: Have to use a circle hook. 00:57:01 Speaker 8: And the just without any real straight bas specific information, there were a couple of great papers with some findings. They were like, we're gonna do this because we think it's the right thing to do, and you know, so at the management board they all voted for it, all like the managers. 00:57:14 Speaker 1: Voted for it. And then Mike Armstrong came back the next. 00:57:16 Speaker 8: Day, flew back from DC, walk into Bill's office, got me in there and he's like, all right, tell me if it's gonna work. I got like Bill myself and Mike and Dean together, it's like, all right, guys, go figure out if this is actually. 00:57:29 Speaker 1: And we're going to make a difference at all. 00:57:31 Speaker 7: Right, yeah, right, So and we had our hunches based on our experience. 00:57:35 Speaker 6: But so that's what we did. 00:57:36 Speaker 7: And it was in twenty nineteen when we started designing the study and what we were evaluating at that point then was the conservation benefit between the use of a jayhook versus a circle hook. And so back in twenty twenty, when everybody was locked in their house is Ben and I and our small team of staff, we got to go out and implement this study. So how we did that was we used acoustic telemetry. This is the technology now, this step up from the tide pool. 00:58:05 Speaker 2: Which is just such a great answer to the how do you know right for all everybody yelling bullshit in the back of the line right now. 00:58:14 Speaker 7: This is built on good sound science and the cutting technology. So the way this acoustic telemetry works is that you have transmitters, which is the tag, and then receivers. Each transmitter has a unique ID to it that transmits to this passive acoustic array of receivers that you place in your study area. So when the fish has a tag in it or a transmitter and it swims by one of these receivers, it transmits unique information ID, and it can transmit other data elements like temperature or in our case it was accelerometer. So we were looking at tailbeat frequency. So it's kind of like which you. 00:58:56 Speaker 3: Could say directly, it relates to health of the fish. 00:59:00 Speaker 6: And that's why was allowed or not. 00:59:02 Speaker 7: Yeah, So it's like kind of driving down the highway and going through the toll booth and your transponder pings to the to the toll gate. So the accelerometer measured the tailbeat frequency and so, and it could measure it for as long as within the array. So some of the post release mortalities say like you catch a fish, you let it go, and you see it swim way strong. You maybe didn't even notice it was puffing a little bit of blood out of its skills or something like that. 00:59:30 Speaker 6: Up to a day or. 00:59:31 Speaker 7: Two later, that fish dies and we can actually capture that through the tailbreat frequency. So it's a really powerful tool for predicting mortality. But what else is really cool about the technology we use is so not only can you cover a large area like where we worked was all in the Beverly Salem marble Head Sound area up and off of north shore Massachusetts. But if that fish leaves our array as it migrates south, if any other re searcher is using the same technology which most people are up and down the coast. 01:00:04 Speaker 1: It will whales in, Great whites and sturgeon, literally thousands of receivers. I'm winter flounder, I've done River Harry and Chad. 01:00:15 Speaker 8: I mean just almost any fish you talked about weakfish at some point want to catch. The people are tagging weakfish, like, yeah, almost any species you would think of. 01:00:24 Speaker 7: They're they're out there, and there's receivers out there. And even with the offshore window, all that was offshore wind areas now are starting to have acoustic receivers really expanding east where we've ever been able to look before. 01:00:37 Speaker 2: And it's it's you know, every agency has a certain amount of resources, so this is pretty awesome because you get to run your study and it can get picked up on other spread out resources. 01:00:52 Speaker 7: And we're all a member of a network and uh Atlantic Coast Telemetry Network and so there's like agreements we all go in as researchers and we're like, okay, this is here's the data. 01:01:05 Speaker 6: And if you use. 01:01:06 Speaker 7: That data and you're going to publish from it, then you first want to have to contact us. We will share that detection information from our receivers with you, and then you work out if if we'd be co authorship on that or whatever. 01:01:18 Speaker 1: It depends what's going on. But if that is that the tag, the tag. 01:01:22 Speaker 8: Belongs to the researcher, yes, and we all cooperate and share our receiver data. 01:01:26 Speaker 1: So like we can't if we get like somebody tags fifty. 01:01:30 Speaker 8: Surgeon in the Merrimack River and they spend all summer on gift, which may we have a bunch of receivers out there. Like we just basically can just say here's your data, happy to do it, thanks, But I mean, if that's your old studies, you probably make us co authors. If half of your detections are us, please make us co authors. But we can't do anything with that information, like we're not going to publish off of it. 01:01:50 Speaker 7: And then this this way, everybody kind of plays nice and we all get to share information, and there's some people that don't play nice and then shure out. So it's a really good system that's been developed over the last like ten years or so that we've been a really large part of. 01:02:04 Speaker 2: But for yeah, for your your study, how many fish did you put your transit? 01:02:11 Speaker 6: Yep? 01:02:11 Speaker 7: So over two years we tagged three hundred and fifty fish and we caught well over seven hundred fish within that array. And so when we caught the fish, then we would collect different parameters data elements from it, fight time, handling time, release time, where that fish was hooked, what type of hook you were you using, trauma associated with that so was it bleeding or not, and then like vitality once you released it, how well it swam away. 01:02:42 Speaker 6: And so we collected all these information. 01:02:44 Speaker 8: Fine scale of water temperature, in water temperature, environmental information. 01:02:50 Speaker 7: And so then as we collected all this information, we really didn't know what was going to be a predictor of mortality, but we just collected everything that we could at that time. And then at the end of those two years, we followed those fish and then we had our data set. And then the person that's not at this table that's ezequally as important is Mike a dean, and he's the analyst, and he created a model based on all these DIFP parameters that could predict mortality, and so what came to the top was fight time, handling time, water temperature, air temperature, vitality, and hook location. Yeah, and hook location is the big one. So for that, the. 01:03:30 Speaker 3: Hook location rose to the top of we. 01:03:33 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean the the day like we had we had we collected all these individual data points and then. 01:03:41 Speaker 1: Of these their hunderd fifty fish Billa or I did all the tagging. One of the two of us did everything. 01:03:46 Speaker 8: So we were like in very close condition close communication throughout everything, and we would assign what was called the conditioned score, and that really became like not surprisingly, when we did the modeling, the condition score was the most important predictor because it brought several. 01:04:00 Speaker 1: Of these really important things together. 01:04:03 Speaker 8: And so then once we created the model, you say, okay, what does conditions score really and break it out into its components. But yeah, it really is like cook location, blood handling, and fight time. Those are like big ones. And then there seems to be here some water. 01:04:16 Speaker 6: Water temperature is a big one. 01:04:17 Speaker 7: We don't have really warm water here up in Massachusetts, but northern yeah, Northern Buzzer's Bay does get pretty toasty. But through the modeling process, we can actually predict mortality on and that is a significant has a significant stress on release stripe bass, and could they lead to mortality. 01:04:37 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's cool, like some of these other things are more linear, like time can be more linear. Like so if you think like longer time, higher chans of mortality. But it's really like a step wise thing for temperature where I think that's one of the recommendations we could make out of everything. It's like, if your water temperature is starting to get north is seventy seventy two seventy three, it is not a great time to fishes, right bass, Like you see it just a sudden up tick mortality post release mortality. 01:05:01 Speaker 1: Once you get up to seventy four to seventy five degrees. 01:05:04 Speaker 3: Right. 01:05:05 Speaker 2: So there you're you are finding some things that, like anybody not related to the science field can. 01:05:13 Speaker 3: Affect what what happens to the fish that they interact. Yeah, by doing or not doing. 01:05:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm jumping up for it a little bit. 01:05:20 Speaker 8: But yeah, so we did this just for Circle and Jay Hooks, And I mean I think you probably have seen and noticed that Bill and Micah wasn't here, but Bill and I are the mica had two are kind of gluttons for punishment and. 01:05:31 Speaker 1: Grind grind a little bit. 01:05:34 Speaker 8: So I think from day one, Mike arms Trunk came in, you know, go figure this circle and jay hook thing out, walked out the door, and we all look at each other like let's do it all, like we're gonna do this, but that means that we could also do that. So I think the three of us had, like from day one, had an interest in taking it to where we're taking it now, which is trying to completely redo that put that post release mortality estimately. 01:05:58 Speaker 6: But closure on the first one. 01:06:00 Speaker 7: So the big answer is like, we'll do circle hooks work, And the answer was statistically way ones the way we fished and the hooks that we tested, and we tested the hooks we tested were ones that. 01:06:13 Speaker 6: Were most commonly used in the fishery. 01:06:14 Speaker 7: We talked to captains and anglers and shops and that's how we came up with our hook list and it was a six to so goami and eight oh gomi ten eagle claw, and then the six gomi octopus was a jay hook that we used. So when we compared those two hooks and compared to them side by side, there was no significant difference where they hooked and post release mortality. 01:06:39 Speaker 3: But and then with that, right, and the circle hook is like the thing that's supposed to be safer for catch and release. 01:06:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I mean it is. 01:06:49 Speaker 8: And again I think that this is why were some of those personal observations come in. It is like Bill, you know, we had our ideas. Like Bill was like, we're never I don't think this is going to work. From the start, was a little bit more optimistic. And I think anecdotally we've talked to some people and especially different regions who have had what they feel like is higher success with the circle hooks. And I used to when I was fishing along on sound it was a lot of you saw, like a lot of what we did the last couple of days is. 01:07:16 Speaker 1: Like no tension on the bait. 01:07:18 Speaker 8: Don't have you like you want that like a free swimming beat or a free floating bait, and like, And we found that the jay hooks and the circles weren't the same. I used to drag baits at a knot, you know, anyway, from zero point eight knots to a knot and a half two knots with a three way rig sixty feet down and I felt like when I switched from j's and trebles to a circle hook, I felt like they did way way better. 01:07:41 Speaker 1: We've talked to this guy we talked to who's caught. 01:07:44 Speaker 8: All these huge fasts. He's dragging eels at like a knot, a little over a knot, and he was like, I love the circle hooks, like I hinge. 01:07:52 Speaker 1: Him all the time, like I feel like in then. 01:07:56 Speaker 8: The mouth, he felt like, So that's something that like maybe eventually we'll be able to catch up to. But so that's why I say, like the way we fished what we did, we didn't see a difference, and that could be important because, like I said, Massachusetts is a lot of fish caught and released all summer long, and a lot of people in Massachusetts do exactly what we were doing. 01:08:15 Speaker 3: Which is chunk and bait and liveline. 01:08:18 Speaker 8: Yeah, you saw when we're trolling the fish, like, we didn't catch as many fish, but when we were trolling stuff and kind of like doing the open water. 01:08:25 Speaker 1: Stuff, we did better without not devoting fish. 01:08:28 Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:08:30 Speaker 2: Because there's a certain size of fish that is going to always be able to inhale a certain size of hook. 01:08:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, and doesn't really matter what that hook looks like. 01:08:40 Speaker 7: Yeeah, yeah, and I mean circle. I mean it wasn't like I give them credit, the managers when they implemented this circle hook well, because it has worked successfully in other fisheries, Like the bill Fish Foundation requires in their tournaments and stuff to use a very approved you know, bill Fish Foundation circle hook, and so down in Florida they've had some success with circle hooks and like snappers and stuff like that. 01:09:03 Speaker 6: So it makes sense. 01:09:04 Speaker 7: But I think our opinion, it's the behavior straight backs when they feed. It's like a large mouths baths or anything like that. They come and they open their mouth and they just inhale baits, especially if like if they're swimming away and being pulled away from them, maybe they can't, but just their motion and how they're you know, how they feed, they're just gonna inhale that. And so lots of times that hook goes right back and if it catches, say the gill, that is probably the worst place you can hook the bats. 01:09:33 Speaker 8: So yeah, so it's interesting, like to dive a little deeper into the circle jay hook stuff. 01:09:37 Speaker 1: Since we're hanging out here hook location. 01:09:43 Speaker 8: The circles ended up in the corner of the mouth more than the jay hooks did, but damage trauma. 01:09:50 Speaker 1: And bleeding they did more. 01:09:52 Speaker 8: And what we found frequently, and we've talked to a lot of captains that have noticed the same thing, is that you'd be fighting a fish on the circle hook and all of a sudden you thought you lost it, like you cat like grab and then and then you come tight again. And what was probably happened is that circle hooker grab something deep in the mouth and the stomach tore out, and then as it was coming out, hit the gills, then grabbed the jaw and we'd get that. We would get fish where we'd be like like hinge lashed like awesome. You see the boat fish coming to like awesome, and then you see. 01:10:20 Speaker 6: Like a little little blood. 01:10:22 Speaker 1: You get up and you yeah, yeah. 01:10:24 Speaker 8: And so so that actually brought the mortality equal is we had more hooks than when we got the fish was in the hinge, but probably started in the stomach and did damage pubbling out. 01:10:35 Speaker 1: So it was interesting like just to dive deeper into those Oh. 01:10:39 Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I mean I think that's A huge, huge takeaway for for people is. 01:10:47 Speaker 3: And you know, I think it's just important for all. 01:10:49 Speaker 2: The stuff that we've covered it, fishing is so anecdotal, it's so personal, it's it's culture embedded for you fish certain things, certain ways, as in certain areas, and this study is just kind of a great foundation out there for people to be like, well, here's some folks who had a lot more tools to actually know, right versus guess what happens to that fish when it gets released? And if you switch this method and use a different hook, you can have a different result. If you move away from this method and fish that same fish in that same spot with a different method, you can have a better result, as in the fish is going to is more than likely going to swim away and be healthy when you release it, or like you said, avoid that water temperature. 01:11:48 Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, So I mean what we did is we had this the cool upside that we didn't see the big difference in circles and jays like we'd hope to when we started, but we now had this predictive model where we could apply it to any gear type, any type of lure that we wanted to. So we that's what brought you out here? As we transitioned to doing the citizen science project for the last year and a half, we're continuing it through twenty twenty four where instead of Bill and I and some of our other staff and friends going out and fit catching fish, which I mean, I'm proud of. 01:12:21 Speaker 1: What we did, we caught a lot of fish over two years. 01:12:24 Speaker 8: We put it kind of in the hands of anglers and said, tell us what you're using, Record these core data elements that we think are important, and give us the data so we can estimate mortality for swimming plugs, for soft plastics, you know, for all these different gear types, tube and worm, whatever you're using. We can cut out flutterspoon, we can we can come up with a post release our estimate for all these different things. 01:12:48 Speaker 1: And so again, like seven hundred fish, I think we did well. 01:12:51 Speaker 8: One year of citizen science data brought thirty six hundred fish. 01:12:55 Speaker 7: In fact, I looked just today anticipating this and we have now five thousand and fish that have been reported to the Division being fisheries by citizens scientists with observation associated. 01:13:06 Speaker 6: That's out of we've had over. 01:13:08 Speaker 7: Almost a thousand people sign up now for our study to help to be assistant science. 01:13:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what what makes you a citizen scientist? 01:13:16 Speaker 7: So if you want to help out division Une fisheries, you can go to our website and you can register. Basically, we have an online form. You fill out your information. It's mass dot gov backslash striper spelled with one P, and then we will send you a package data collection package. It includes a measuring tape, data logues, a thermometer so you can do air and water temperature and if you collect that information, and a stop wise. 01:13:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some muscle memory in your kids especial fishing. So yeah, you'll you'll see this on the YouTube channel and elsewhere in the future. 01:14:01 Speaker 6: But we. 01:14:03 Speaker 2: The intent here was to follow the last couple of days this this method right, which is record the fight time, record the handling time, record the location of the hook and and the type of fishing. 01:14:19 Speaker 7: Yeah, where the hook was blood present and was located. And then what did it do when you let it go right fast, slow or not at all? 01:14:28 Speaker 8: Like you noticed with the slugo that had two hooks rigged into it, So that would like be a difference in a lure type like almost everything else we're doing with live and dead baits. So we had what what hook did we catch it on? Was the six O commie they hate O COMMI, you know, whatever other hook we're using. But then when you started casting site casting to those fishes with that slugo bill. 01:14:46 Speaker 1: Was like how many how many hooks did you have in there? 01:14:49 Speaker 8: Like that would be like in the lure information, which we want to know because we can talk about different types of lures and different number of hook points. There's two hook points. There's two singles on that. Now did one get in it? Or did both get in? And what were the injuries with those two? 01:15:02 Speaker 6: Yeah? 01:15:06 Speaker 2: I say there's muscle memory here too, because uh, if you're like me, you get super excited about fishing, right and and this is would be a way for you to become a next level angler is to have the presence of mind to get that hook set, come tight on the fish and then start a stopwatch, which is insanely. 01:15:27 Speaker 6: Different it is, or just remember to do yeah especial. 01:15:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly's weird. 01:15:33 Speaker 2: But I think that's a good way for folks listening to differentiate themselves from other anglers. 01:15:41 Speaker 5: I can do some coach out there in the water. 01:15:43 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, we recognize it is not like an easy thing, especially if there's like a wide open bike you're gonna stop and record information and all that. So Bill and I've always said, like, you don't have to record every single fish you catch on the trip. You know, if you can if you catch five fish on a trip and you get two or three of them, great, Yeah. 01:16:01 Speaker 1: Don't feel like it's all or nothing proposition. Just get us whatever you get. 01:16:04 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's just a way that you know, as we know, like stripers are are a big part of these communities there, there's something that that anglers like myself, you know, like you from shows and magazines and stuff like you're like, I don't want to make it out there and do that one day, right, Like it's it's a big draw for anglers to travel and come do and this is a way for everybody to participate in the health of the fishery. 01:16:40 Speaker 3: Like the longevity of those opportunities, right. 01:16:43 Speaker 4: So, And I think one of the coolest parts of this whole study because there's there's a lot of sense in science opportunities out there across like wildlife biology. 01:16:53 Speaker 5: Fishing and things like that. 01:16:54 Speaker 4: But what I like about this and and and you know, we went to the these guys and said, like, how can we help, like what can we do to support this and make sure this stuff happens. 01:17:06 Speaker 5: They came back to us and said, like, there's this great. 01:17:08 Speaker 4: Opportunity to do a data viewer viewer, Like we're gonna upload this data and we can present this data to the public, so it's not like you're just throwing it into some database. You can actually go and see how your data and everybody else's data is is like how what it's, what it means, what it's looking like at this point in time, and you guys are updating it a couple of times a week almost real time. 01:17:32 Speaker 6: Yeah. 01:17:32 Speaker 4: So, and already I've heard stories of some tackle manufacturers looking at this data and making tweaks to their to their gear and so that's been pretty cool to be to be involved with that, to help you contribute to as an organization, help contribute to that that data portal. 01:17:50 Speaker 5: So you know, people can learn from it in real time. 01:17:54 Speaker 7: So I'd say it's a significant contribution that BHA has given DMF the ability to do that because a lot of people are are motivated by you know, the citizen scientists. The angler that's going out because we have we have i mean covers all every you know, covers suspect and the type of anglers, what you have, but we have some really dedicated hardcore anglers and they're the guys that love to read that stuff. And you know, thanks to these guys, we've been able to create this this informative data portal and it's very informative and really break its down like every aspect of fishing between the fight time and the impacts. Like if you got if you're a fly fisherman, right, you want to know what the impacts of that single hook before we even put publish anything. 01:18:42 Speaker 6: Put this out. You can go right now and click on that and you can. 01:18:45 Speaker 7: Look up what a fly does and the impact on step bass when you release that. 01:18:48 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's been really amazing, a big off for us do and we hope it cuts down on that bullshit factor people sitting there like like we're showing you the data. 01:18:57 Speaker 3: What does mass fisheries actually do? 01:19:00 Speaker 8: Yeah? What are these guys actually doing? And like you, they're saying stuff, but is it real? 01:19:03 Speaker 3: Is you can give them a whole ten dollars. 01:19:09 Speaker 8: They can really see the data coming in and hopefully I think it has helped. 01:19:12 Speaker 1: Like a Chris was saying, there's people. 01:19:13 Speaker 8: Who are already not only are the tackle manufacturers who are making changes, but there are plenty of anglers who are taking upon themselves to go out and buy single hooks and replace their treble hooks with singles and figure out how to fish stuff and with that are going to have less impact. Somebody printed this out and brought it here, so this is like we just was really cool. So the last year where PHA has been sponsoring this data portal, we've had just the raw data that comes in. We haven't put direct mortality estimates out of that data that we're calculating on the website because we had to get our model through peer review kind of get that stamp of approval on it. 01:19:52 Speaker 1: We just got that a couple of weeks ago. 01:19:54 Speaker 8: So we're going to be changing the data portal so not only will it show the raw data, but it will show mortality estimate associated from all these different gear types with it, so people can actually look and say, like you know, like all right, today I'm gonna go target straight bass. I have some macro in the freezer. I could chunk them up and throw it. Like, that's an eight point three percent mortality. Well I could also go use soft plastics and that's like a two point two maybe, yeah, go do the soft plastics or like you know, I love fishing top water like Zara Spook walking the dog type lures holy Craft. A surface lure with double trebles is like also an eight percent mortality rate, but if you swap that out to a single jay hook, it goes down to like a four point one you know, Like, yeah, these numbers are going to I'm saying, I'm throwing like right where they are right now. Like we've gotten almost fifteen hundred data points added to our our our set this year, so they're going to be just like everything else, they'll be updated throughout this project. But we're gonna be able to put the direct mortality estimates. 01:20:50 Speaker 2: And if if your goal is the keeper fish, yeah you can fish one thing. If your goal or if your spot that you like to go to like never has a keeper fish and you're just there to catch fish, you can adjust your game for that. 01:21:07 Speaker 7: Or if you're going out and you grinding, you know, you might want to just catch one or two fish a day, keep grinding with the trouble. But if you're out there and you got fumers and they're just blitz them all over the place, and you're just throwing that Zara spook with those two double troubles, maybe switch it out to a single change your technique and. 01:21:23 Speaker 2: Then, Chris, what is hit us with what's happening on the policy side of things? 01:21:29 Speaker 3: Since you got called out as the policy got so. 01:21:33 Speaker 4: Right now a lot I think a lot of people are kind of anxious to sort of see the next stock assessment and also what are probably a few weeks out from the the Young Year report. Okay, so I think a lot of people are interested in that we did come off what seems like a pretty good winter spring in terms of like the environmental condition, so hopefully this particular season will produce. But the next big meeting for the stripe pass board is in October, I believe. So I think we're gonna sort of have We're gonna sort of get some figures to see sort of see like how this this narrowing of the slot has impacted will Like what's the future of the like of this emergency action? 01:22:22 Speaker 5: Is that going to get changed? 01:22:24 Speaker 4: So you know, policy advocates are always waiting to sort of sort of gauge the responsiveness and like how willing the board is to listening to the science and the participants in the in the space and you know, and so you know, obviously b h A, we're primarily representing the recreational angler angler, and I think we're in a unique position where we have a broad swath of recreational anglers. We're not like a single niche kind of angler. We've got people who are going to go out and want to take that fish home. 01:23:06 Speaker 5: And we're just start here. 01:23:07 Speaker 3: If you fish more than two days a week, you're a recreational angler, right so yeah, yeah, yeah, so. 01:23:13 Speaker 5: For this particular species, yeah so yeah. 01:23:17 Speaker 4: So you know, I think we're just gonna wait and sort of see. Like I said earlier in the conversation, I think the board has turned in a direction that we're pretty happy with being more responsive want recognizing the status of the fishery. But the real thing is right now, because we've been in an overfish state, the stripe pass Board is mandated by law to recover this population by the deadline is twenty nine. So that's what we're kind of waiting and seeing like are we going to get there, are we going to hit that that that point in time where we can say, yep, the actions that they were compelled to take have made a difference and we can classify this stock as not overfished. 01:24:04 Speaker 3: And then how does BHA way in here? 01:24:07 Speaker 4: So typically, well, for the longest period of time, I would say since twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, we've been more engaged in the policy side, getting our membership to speak up, to reach out to the Stripe Basketboard, to reach out to their individual fishing representatives or manager state representatives on the ASMFC board, we provide lots of information our take, and our take is we want to manage this fish for future abundance, like we want our kids, our grandkids to fish for this these fish and have that connection to this resource. So we are advocating for future abundance and recovery. So we've had people do actional arts, We've had people testify up and down the Striper coast, and that's one of the cool things. We have every chapter up and down the Eastern Sea Board engaged in this on the same page. You know, even though we represent different fishing cultures and stuff. 01:25:03 Speaker 1: Like that. 01:25:03 Speaker 4: That BHA community up and down the coast has been great and when we do when there's a call of act called action, the response has been tremendous. And when you look at the breakdown of the public the public information, you know, in terms of phishing organizations, we've been pretty consistently at the top. 01:25:23 Speaker 5: Of outreach from our from our community, which is awesome. We hope that to hope that continues. 01:25:30 Speaker 3: Folks want to get involved with that. Where do they find you? 01:25:33 Speaker 4: So best thing to do is to check out the b h A website. We're all of our Stripe Bass information we put there to search stripe Bass and you'll see the most recent the most recent blog posts. New England and New York chapters are kind of leading the way, so on their social media accounts you'll regularly see information related to Stripe Bass, this. 01:25:58 Speaker 5: Project right here that we've been talking about. 01:26:01 Speaker 4: So that's the easiest way to sort of just plug it into your feed and monitor what we're doing. 01:26:07 Speaker 3: And maybe jump in and show up one night. 01:26:11 Speaker 4: Yeah, when we put out the call action like that's that is like your invitation, but you don't need that invitation. Like we've we've talked about like the personal experience fishery managers. Though there's like there's periods of like open comment periods each state's fishery managers. They want to hear from their constituents. And I've you know, I've spoken to the to the fisheries managers and a lot of the different states, and you know, I can speak too recently to the to here in Massachusetts. They want to hear, they want to hear from the anglers, they want to hear from the constituents. 01:26:46 Speaker 5: So just because there. 01:26:47 Speaker 4: Isn't necessarily a public comment period, if you have you know, if you've had experience insights, like if you want to provide feedback by all means you can, you can do that. And like I said on our on our web site, backcountry hunters dot org, type strike bass and you'll find those resources. 01:27:06 Speaker 5: You'll find links to the research. 01:27:07 Speaker 4: And I'm looking forward to this getting peer reviewed and getting links to that up there. 01:27:12 Speaker 5: You'll have there's. 01:27:13 Speaker 4: Links to joining this citizen science project, and we're looking forward to finding ways so we can support this the next phase of this study because you know, from my perspective, this study is going to be really really neat because it's going to be able to answer, and they've kind of I mean they've talked about it like a good indication of like high quality science is the fact that it leads to more questions. And you can already hear like they already have more questions, which is going to lead them to more research. So we're going to continue to encourage that and try to support that any way we can. 01:27:48 Speaker 8: You know, it was great when I can still remember for BHA, like I've been a bhmaa member since twenty thirteen, maybe like before there was a new England chapter or any East Coast chapter. 01:28:00 Speaker 1: Like doing bh just because I thought it was a cool organization what they were. 01:28:02 Speaker 8: Doing, and you know, the new England chapters come along everything, but I can still remember I trying to remember what y're the that first ASGA Science symposium was that you and I went and talked and when Chris was there with Mike Woods, and like Bill and I looked at each other and we're. 01:28:17 Speaker 1: Like, why is BHA here? 01:28:20 Speaker 9: Like what was here? 01:28:23 Speaker 1: But he let us talk too. 01:28:27 Speaker 8: But also I think it's like Mike Woods is like the most fantastic dude, but he's got like this big, long grizzly beard and like Piercey did, like long hair, and he just looks like he rolled out of a biker club or something. It's just like like a small dude, but it looks like you rolled out of his biker glove. 01:28:42 Speaker 1: So it's just like what is going on here? 01:28:45 Speaker 8: But like he's the awesomest But I mean, so I went. It's been like that initial reaction like I love BHA, but what are they doing here? Like to being like, you know, a couple of years into working with BHA, it's been so meaningful and awesome what they've done and are continuing to do and to work as partners because I think that anybody who has worked with and our alongside State Agency knows we have difficulties. We have limited budgets, limited staff, So having a group like BHA there to amplify and assist us is just vital to. 01:29:16 Speaker 1: Getting the word out to everybody. 01:29:18 Speaker 8: And I think, you know, just as a testament to how important and culture like what a cultural touchstones straight Bassar is that we've had tons of interest up and down the coast, and we've have great project partners that range from like a national brand like Coast donating stuff that we can give out to prize and prize packs pen fishing prize stuff. Then local tackle manufacturers like Hogi Lures, local tackle shops helping us procure stuff surf land, BAP tackle. If you if you don't want to do the you know, everything we've been doing was on paper. If you don't know a paper type of person, we like just totally with some funding assistants. 01:29:58 Speaker 1: From a s g A. But like I'm putting. 01:30:00 Speaker 8: A ton of money in of their own time, of their own they got one fishing app has created a whole way to do if you wanted, if you're an app person, like they've built it into their app so you can. 01:30:09 Speaker 1: Submit data straight into the study. 01:30:11 Speaker 8: So it's been fantastic to have like see the support from the community and get that help getting the word out and getting data coming in. We've run you know, three prizes a month for people who submit data. When you first submit a data, when you first submit any data, you get a free pair of flyers, and then your every time you submit data you get entered into that monthly Raffle drawing. 01:30:34 Speaker 1: Where we have a bunch of hogy Lures Coast to Hats rods and reels. So it's been really really consentives. Yeah. 01:30:43 Speaker 8: Yeah, and like any you can find us on the Internet or on social media. Mass Marine Fisheries on Instagram, Masters Division Marine Fisheries on Facebook and anything related to the study. 01:30:56 Speaker 3: Like Bill said, do you have to be fishing in mass waters? 01:31:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question, thank you. 01:31:02 Speaker 8: Yeah. So, like a big part of what we're doing is trying to get people from anywhere on this Riper coast some data. We do not need to be a Massachusetts resident to do this great and we've built I spent a lot of time this winter talking to other agencies in the mid Atlantic and we went down to the New Jersey Fishing Expo, which was really cool time that was great, and talked to We signed up a bunch of anglers there and talked to a bunch of anglers. 01:31:25 Speaker 7: There here in angler's perspectives from other areas. I think that was one of the most interesting things. People just love this fish. And the other thing I want to fallo up was I just want to say thanks to Meat Eat and Crew because it's been alluded to no one. It's tough for us to get outreach out. We have a really good social media guy. But we're the government and to come from the Meat Eater Crew and your organization is it's it's really beneficial to us and what we're really appreciative of the opportunity to talk to you guys today. 01:31:55 Speaker 3: Thank you for letting me suck some fishing knowledge out of you. Guess I mean that's uh, I mean yeah. 01:32:04 Speaker 2: To tie back into what we said at the very beginning, these guys know what they're doing and part of that state sponsored like you guys took the study on you had to go. 01:32:13 Speaker 3: Catch fish rights to catch them, to let them go and see how they do. 01:32:19 Speaker 8: It's we have to do a lot for our jobs. There's a lot of hoops, there's a lot of restrictions. But at the end of the like you do, there's a. 01:32:25 Speaker 1: Lot of days we get paid to go fishing. 01:32:27 Speaker 8: We have to do a certain way and it's important, but it's pretty awesome. 01:32:31 Speaker 6: Yeah, in the end of the day, it's worked. 01:32:33 Speaker 7: But I think I got the best job in the world and. 01:32:37 Speaker 2: I get I asked a lot on the show, what's a good way to like just just get involved or their careers and conservation. 01:32:45 Speaker 1: There are careers in conservation you want to go for I'll go first. 01:32:50 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, if there's a lot of different ways you can follow my path, which is really hands on. After I got out of college, I came to the observer, get that baseline. I mean, that's the best way to learn about fishers and then stay active volunteer if you have to, and get that lower level job and just work your way up through the chain. 01:33:09 Speaker 6: That's what worked for me. 01:33:11 Speaker 1: Yeah, it works for Bill. 01:33:12 Speaker 8: Like I'm coming slightly younger than Bill and be like there are ways forward through that path now, but it's increasingly becoming like a really expertise driven field. So like when you know, there are these seasonal positions which are great entryways, right, and there's nothing better than having the staff at an agency know who you are and like being a known quantity coming in and working hard and doing well. But I think that for most people in an agency now you're going to need like a minimum master's degree if you really want to move forward with your career. 01:33:46 Speaker 1: Bill's like got a practical masters or. 01:33:49 Speaker 8: PhD means like he gets it all, which is awesome, but like it sometimes that's not going to be available, And I mean I think you know I higher seasonals. Now I have PhD's applying, I have masters applying to be like a three month seasonal position. But if you want to do this job, I think that the three pieces of advice I would give are that you recognize they're going to have to get an advanced degree if you really want that job and to move forward with it. Recognize that you might think you're smart, but you're not by any means the smartest person in the room, so that they don't you're going to have to work harder, like you're gonna just like I think what you probably did see is that Bill and I were like playing ABCD and like what do. 01:34:27 Speaker 1: We have to do to that? 01:34:28 Speaker 8: We'll pick that up, We'll move this, we'll do that, let's three rig this whole rod. But you know it's think it's like that's just this microcosm of like you're gonna have to work your way through every little problem. You saw it in the fishing aspect, that we're doing that for everything. So you're just gonna have to work harder than everybody else if you want to be successful, and especially when you're young. The final thing I would say is be willing to move you know like that is that there are fisheries jobs. There's always a fisheries job open somewhere, and you just got to be willing to move. Even if you really want to be that place based person. 01:34:58 Speaker 1: And come back to where you were. Sometimes the actual route is. 01:35:01 Speaker 8: Going to be a little bit more cecut to, you know, coming around and moving to Alaska and be an observer in Alaska for six months, you get a job somewhere else. 01:35:10 Speaker 1: And then you may end it. 01:35:11 Speaker 8: You're gonna you know, because if Bill sees somebody apply for his job who has six months of Alaska fisheries observing time and like a year in Rhode Island or something, He's like, I'm pretty sure you're going to be my person. 01:35:20 Speaker 3: Like I'm like, I'm pretty sure. 01:35:22 Speaker 1: Like if you could, you could hack it in the Baring. 01:35:24 Speaker 8: Sea for you know, six months with the like you know, the three week four week cruises and. 01:35:29 Speaker 6: All this stuff, you might be able to mate of my boat. 01:35:31 Speaker 1: You might be able to. 01:35:34 Speaker 8: So yeah, it's like like and it's a very small community, all these fisheries and wildlife agencies. 01:35:40 Speaker 1: You know, people all over the place. So go out. 01:35:43 Speaker 8: You're not hurting yourself by traveling because if you go out and work for somebody. 01:35:47 Speaker 1: In Colorado, it's bizarre. 01:35:48 Speaker 8: But I probably like by either directly or like one degree of separation, but I know. 01:35:52 Speaker 1: Who that is. 01:35:53 Speaker 8: I can call them to find out about you, so that I think those would be the big things I would say. 01:35:58 Speaker 1: I don't think the stander pieces. 01:35:59 Speaker 4: Of sort of observing some of the staff that you guys have. And I was at the Gloucester headquarters yesterday with Matt those X actor skills, being able to back a trailer down ramp, you know, having good instincts on the boat, on the deck, like all those things. Like it's not just you know, crushing it academically. 01:36:19 Speaker 5: I think you gotta have got to you know, problem solved, like all those things are. 01:36:26 Speaker 4: Like that's like a consistent characteristic I see in the State Agency, like top like contributing people. 01:36:36 Speaker 1: So yeah, you guys, definitely, you know, it is. 01:36:39 Speaker 3: Hard put yourself out there from the cow school. 01:36:42 Speaker 5: Like the skill set. 01:36:43 Speaker 8: It's like my interview for him, I have like academic stuff side stuff and it's like how are your power tools right. 01:36:51 Speaker 1: There is like how many times have you used the table saw? 01:36:53 Speaker 8: Like back trailer, Like I mean like build you know all right, that's all we got for you this week. 01:36:59 Speaker 2: Thank you so much much for listening, guys, Thank you so much, super filling. 01:37:04 Speaker 3: Can't wait to see how the video turns out. 01:37:06 Speaker 6: Yeah, me too, stuck in our beer bellies. 01:37:09 Speaker 2: Deep enough fish, Yeah yeah, thanks again. We'll talk to you next week. Always right in to A s K C A L. It's ask Heal a meeater dot com. If you have questions for Chris at B A j A or Bill and Ben and Mass Fisheries, send him in. We can always get these guys back on and get them answered, or I can pick them up for you and get them get them back to you. 01:37:37 Speaker 3: So thanks again. We'll talk to you next week.