00:00:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore, like the South American singer. Yeah, okay, that's I'd like to begin. Everybody from Mexico. Hey, guys, welcome to the Beargrease Rangdeer. Everyone. That's why we're here. Yes, welcome. This is the this is the Christmas edition of the Beargrease Surrender. Can we call this one the bear Grease Reindeer? Then? Oh? Got it? Play onwards? I have I will, I will submit that to bear Grease Reindeer. If there was a Bargrease, rightdear, it's dear, would the man? What what a group we have today? We have? We have the standard, the standard six. I've got Brent Reeves to my left wearing a fine pair of overalls and I'd say a war down Bargrease hat. Josh Landbridge, Spillmaker, wearing a Lanbridge wearing the land Bridge mustache himself Misty Newcomb here to your left. To your left Isaac Neil, assistant to the producer of Bargrease podcast, just happy to be invited. And to your left is the believer ms self Gary nucom good to see you. But who you didn't know, who you couldn't have expected, who was going to be here? This is the one and only Juju Nuom my mother, and well I'll introduce the second the second person after this you figured. It is so fantastic to have you here. I am really glad to be here. I'm honored to be here at the annual Christmas party of bear Grease. Why don't you tell us what you've brought for us all? Oh, I brought some Christmas cookies like I did last year. And I'm just happy to be here and send merry Christmas greetings to all your listeners and let them know I do read all of their comments and I get on the if he does something wrong, are ignores something? So oh no, but sometimes you don't answer them. It's so great to have you. Guji has brought the Christmas spirit honest today. Yes, okay, the second guest that we have very special guests a first time guest on the Bear Grease Podcast, the One and Only Bailey Reeves. This is Brent Reeves daughter. Are you what are you doing for Christmas this year? Opening presents? Wow? Nice? Well, why don't you wish everybody merry Christmas? Merry Christmas? What would you say if you were giving advice to people that are going to see their grandpa's, grandma's, their mom and dads, their cousins and they're all gonna get together, like what what do they need to hear from the Reeves family that's gonna like really set off this Christmas? What would you say, Bailey? Um, make sure you spend as much time as you can with him, because you don't know how much time you have with them, so just make sure that make sure that you um spent as much time with them this Christmas. That's good, that's very good. Well, thank you for being here, Mrs Bailey, and good job Bailey. You are welcome to stay in here or y'all can y'all can leave. Let's roll. Good job Bailey, Good job GIU. Except for we would like to discourage all comments, um that are me towards Clay which oh that is monitoring. I'm gonna I'm gonna put on every post I ever make. I'm gonna put on every post I ever make, an asterisk that says Juju is watching. Be nice to me. Can we just start a hot hashtag watching watching? I think you gotta just have her respond to all the comments. Okay, I've always thought back in the day, when Clay was making videos bear hunting videos, people would leave the worst comments, I mean the worst, the meanest. Those those I guess it's pete to people I don't know, but they're terrible, and they would say things like your mom should be the hammer. I mean they would they wouldn't say horrible things about like violent things that should be done to our kids or to Clay's mom, and they would curse your And I thought it would be nice to have Juju read those comments out loud and just have a video of Juji reading these, you know, not nice in the sense of like, oh this is heartwarming, but just so that they realized, like Juju is a really sweet person, and before you say mean things about her and her grandkids, you should probably realize who you're talking about. Yeah, that's great. Well, so, uh, I'll tell you something I've got a few little little things I want to go through on this episode. We're going to talk about this the secret episode, the bonus episode of the what became a four part series on Our Secret Agent Man where we had Artie Stewart undercover wildlife agent. And then the bonus episode when I met I went and met with Claude Maxwell in Ohio was referred to as Target number two only, which is a which is a major deal, really major deal. Kind of a sensitive deal in a way too. So. But before we get to that, um lots of bear grease hats, sightings in the wild. It's incredible. Yeah, it started off with the guy on the on the Bengals in Kansas City Chiefs game. I don't know that it started off that way. I feel like that's more of an apex, kind of an apex, right right right. It started out with good every day, hard working Americans buying bear grease hats and wearing them. And then one of those good hard working, everyday Americans went to an NFL game, got spotted, got spotted, and then and then another guy was watching a hockey game, a hockey game, and there's a Burgharas guy just giving him heck and uh, and so I put that. I put that online too, and then the comments are just full of people saying, hey, I saw a guy with the Burghera's hat and we went and talked and listen to this. Missy and I went to Cabella's two days ago because I was I thought this is a pretty good story too. Well, I hope this person is listening. We're at Cabella's and we're in we're in line and a Cabella's worker goes, I like your hat and I said thanks, and I kind of thought maybe it was it was a lady. I thought she might just like the design. And I just said hey, thanks, and I just kind of kept walking and she says that's one of my favorite podcasts, and I just I just said, oh cool, yeah, yeah, and we kept walking and Misty was like, don't tell her. Uh and then uh, I thought that was pretty cool and uh she recognized the hat with the you know the podcast and I responded, it's a mediocre. I mean, it's got a lot of runway. Who was who was telling? Uh? Was it was it? Did you too? That just told us the story about someone? Yeah? What did she say? Two people ran into each other? That we're both wearing him and this story has told. This story was told to her by a person who was with one of the people wearing the hats. He said that two guys, one that he knew and one that he didn't, ran into each other and they started talking to each other like it was a different language. Does he want the hat now? Is he trying to get in on the hat train? Who the guy who related the story? Why did she get a hat? She was getting a hat for some reason. It wasn't for that guy. Okay, somebody got a hat though. I went on a trip this weekend. Flew down to Texas. Friday morning, five thirty at the airport. There's a guy sitting there with a bear grease hat. Saturday night, Rockport, Texas. Eating at a Mexican restaurant. A guy comes in with a bear grease hat. Really, what do you order? We left before they ordered. He was he was very appreciative, very polite young man. Maybe his name was Trevor. I asked it, and I was like, I'm gonna remember this. I don't know Trevor from Rockport, Texas. How did you approach this guy? I said, Hey, this is weird. That's that's though, if a guy has a bear grease hat on, he wants somebody to come up and fist bumping and grow up. Yes, yeah, yeah, he received it. Well, that's great. I love it. I love it. Third thing on the list the Moose episode on me. Did you enjoy it? That was one of the better episodes. Why was it? People have said that, They're like, why, it was just because you because you can't trust people who know you. You can't. You can't even trust you herself. Josh, certainly of the hunt, the idea of the hunt, the fact that it's so remote, it's such a such a it's it's the kind of hunt that not a lot of people will get to do in their lives. And then you go for nine days and you got jack nothing, and then you get that last minute. I mean it was like it was like it was set up, you know what I mean talking about Yeah, Like I didn't even remember we had that conversation when I said, man, I thought it was your year like that that wasn't I mean, none of these scenes were set up scenes. Literally, we were having that conversation and there were two dudes behind us and we didn't know filming us, but we kind of knew him, but like that, that is what someone who set up a hunt to succeed would say, Can we trust you? Did you plant the moose there? Oh? I think you may have. I think you packed in the moose and you planted it just in case helicoptered in a movie. That's all. I'm dropped him in there. What's what's funny is that when you started saying stuff like that, like people are gonna believe it. Yeah, absolutely, we've inter helicopter. I think you should cut that out there. Okay, Well, what's funny is that I actually posted a video on the TikTok of me and Ranella in Alaska at the airport and a Chinook helicopter comes in. True story, Chinook helicopter comes in. I video it. I turned the camera to Ranella and I say, that's the way we're getting in there, right, And he says that's the way, which it is clearly not true. This is a U. S. Military, Like I want to say, they said it was a twenty million dollar helicopter, and so I joked that that's what was taken us in and he said, that's how we helicoptered in the animals. It was a joke. People believe it, well, I don't know it was on it's on the talk. I think it can only be beneficial to have people out there talking about it, spreading rumors. Then people go watch the episode, bumps up. There's no bad press. So I'm getting to the Dollar build. Dad, did you see the episode yet? What do you think? I didn't like it? You didn't? Whoa, because I'm sleepy. I want to take a nap. You want to take a nap right now? I'm retired, man, I'm not used to working. No, No, it was. It was excellent. It was excellent. Uh you know when you told the story, I'm trying to think where I heard the story. You told that y'all were in camp ready to go packed up, and Ronella said, I'm going to the possum front. Yeah Bill, yeah, um. And they didn't tell that part. Yeah, you know. To me, you know that that was a highlight. Actually it was. It was real good without it. But I enjoyed that part because it tells you a lot about Ronnella. Why he is where he is is. I mean, you're worn out, you've been there ten days. This guy still fired up, wanting to kill something. Yeah, his instincts took him to the exact correct spot yep, and then turns it over to you. So yeah, and I thought the same thing that I really wish they had included that, because if you remember the story that I told about that moose hunt, we were all but like packing up to leave, like we're done. We'd already like shot the ending scene of the video and we're going home after nine days with no moose and like really discouraged, and then just on a whim, we don't even have time to kill a moose because the planes are coming, and Rannella, it wasn't me. I mean, I I was done. Was there some particular reason that he went to that spot? Just it was no been there in a few days, okay, but it was the it was the worst spot we had to, like we never we've never seen a bull moose there for some reason, but we just hadn't been there in a couple of days. And so he was just like, I'm gonna walk up to the porcupine. And then I was like, well, how far was it? Probably half mile, so it would have been just as a whole lot easier just to kick back weight on the airplane you get there and nap. Yeah, like I thought. Yeah, it was we were done, man, like done. And because even earlier that day the producer had said, hey, we really can't kill a moose anymore because wait, so how did you resolve it then? Man, Ronnell is dead serious about hunting, like he was just like, we'll figure it out. Yeah, and I don't think we're really planning to kill one. Sure, but like I mean, because the planes were coming and you shot one, did you just tell the planes got you? Well, So the way it worked is the planes were coming in the more and it was late in the evening. They aren't real fast, and everybody was involved well, and we were able to bump the plane back, which we didn't think we could do because the moose season ended, so all the hunters they had out, we're all trying to get home and so it was real. It was like, well they may not be able to get you out. Uh if you if you lose your spot, it maybe two days before they can come get you. So that's what they were worried about it. But it just the way it worked out. We were able to say, hey, come it come later in the day and they were like that's no problem. So it ended up working out, but it was it was pretty incredible. But the antlers look awesome up on the wall in there, Yeah, they do. They do. So this is what I wanted to talk about though. In a picture that's on the f h F Gear Instagram page, there's a picture me glass and in Alaska and I've got I've got my big puffy jacket on, and I've got their new bino harness, which they've got a new bino harness they're coming out with. And at the top of that Botto harness you'll see a dollar bill and the American dollar bill. And somebody zoomed in and spotted that American dollar bill and I I wanted to explain why that was there. It was the just randomly I found it in my pocket while I was hunting. We're in the back country for nine days with like six people, and I had the thought that if things go to pot and they don't come to get us, that this dollar bill, it would be the start of a great novel. You with me, six people in the wilderness, that they would find on your one thing that represents the the lost civilization that has now been destroyed let's say let's say let's say we're out in the wilderness, the apocalypse happens and the earth is destroyed. Everybody's dead except for us because we're way in the back country. And whatever got us didn't think about us in the back country. This American dollar bill, this is this is the start of a novel. And it's called the American dollar Bill. And and this is what happens when you're in the back country too long. So this dollar bill then, because we have to build a whole new like like human order amongst like the six of us, you know, and whoever has the dollar bill has the power of the castle. Yeah, And so the novel is about that nap sounding a whole lot better. Is this a sequel to American Buffalo? In some ways we talked about this NonStop. My novel about the treachery, backstabbing in every character would reveal a part of human nature that is in eight in people. But at the end there would be like some massive redemption because it's bargaries with me. That was the main reason I kept the dollar bill close. But the second practic, a little more functional reason, was I said I would give that dollar to anybody that could find me a black bear that I could shoot. Yeah, I had a black bear attack. You keep the dollar. Nobody found me a black bear. We saw a black bearar was too far so didn't qualify. I was like, I got to have a black bear that's like in range, you know that I could actually take And if you find me that bear. This dollar bill is yours. Do you still have it? I think I spent it. Cold coke have more value up there in Alaska. Josh, tell us about your recent I have reached uh microlebrity celebrity startom. I was down at the down at the river the other day on last weekend fly fishing and h the fish were biting. Good man, We're just pull them out, right. But I moved down to a new section and to drive up a little bit where I was at and I moved down to a new section. Can you drop me a pen? I'll put it on Instagram page. I moved down to a little section. There was a guy fishing on the other side of the river, and I, you know, I gave him a few yards so he could catch some fish there. But I noticed as I was walking down he wasn't catching any fish and I just I walked into the water and just went bam, bam bam. Caught three fish right back to back. And he goes, man, you're on fire. And I said, I said, well, you know, I told him what I was fishing with. I said, try this. I said, they're biting these really good. So so tie one of those on if you got one, and uh he he fishes and he did. I pulled another one out and he goes, he goes, is your name, Josh? I was like, uh yeah, and he goes. He goes, like as in the land Bridge. I was like, I thought, I recognized your voice. Yeah, he recognized you. He recognized my voice. He goes, he goes, Bear Grease, my favorite podcast man. His name with Stokes. He was swearing a hat, but not a Bear Grease hat. You hate to see it. That's good to hear, that's great to hear. I'm living large, living larch, living large. Next thing on list, Brent Reeves is hunting my dog, hoot hoot Brent. So I we live in the in the Ozarks, in the mountains. And if you were if you were explaining this to a kid and you were talking about the the the bio, I swear I'm looking for, like the bio productivity of a region. Okay, you would, you would essentially be talking about at a real foundational level, the richness of the soil literally translates into the how many how many animals and the carrying capacity of the land for all kinds of stuff like the size of trees, the amount of raccoons, the amount of deer, the amount of waterfowl, how big deer antlers are. It all goes back to the soil. Well in the Ozarks. The Ozarks, my friends, are is an eroded plateau, an uplifted plateau that was was bumped when the South American continent bumped into the North American continent. This is I'm going to start a new podcast called orogeny mountain forming process. Okay, So the the the the spring Field, It's called the Springfield Plateau, which was bulged, a bulged sex and of land that eroded. So the Ozarks were formed by erosion, which means all the good stuff left. Now I'm fully in. But where exactly where it went into the to the to the Gulf coastal region, the the the basically the Mississippi River Delta. It literally formed the dirt of Louisiana. Okay, come on, And so the raccoon hunting is better down there. That's exactly as I wish you were down there hunting, because I've had to had this call through the hides that were left, and I only got enough for four more hats. We'll talk about that in a second. So Brent lives in the Delta region of Arkansas. So Arkansas would be split into like the mountainous regions in the Delta region, which would be influenced by the great rivers of the heart Land of America, the primary river being the Mississippi River, but also the White River, um Arkansas, Black River, Arkansas River River, Cash Money River. And so Brett hunts in the flat country where there's a ton of coons. So he took my dog. I said all that to say, you know, life's connected, Josh, It's connected, is why it's a terrible word. Mountain. Look at this, hold on. I've got a book here that it would explain it all more than one. The Appalachian Wash, it all orogen in the United States. See that textbook right there, that's as thick as your thigh. Never read it, but it's it has that word mountainforming processes. Brett, you're hunting, hoot? How's she doing? She did good night before last. I went over to the farm. We cut her loose, or I cut her loose. Man, she hunt gets you on it out three hundred three and fifty yards, made a big loop, kind of bumps something a little bit, may have been a deer, may have been a rabbit. I don't know what it was, which she barked a little bit. But it's good he doesn't, you know, it doesn't really matter. She's got all the tools. If it all has got all the tools. The only other thing that that you need is the desire for it to go, and she has that desire to go. So even if she's chasing off game, I can fix I can fix it, yeah, because she's got the hunt. You're halfway there. So we go out and she comes back and move over to a different spot and turn loose. And it's cold, man, And there a lot of folks up north hunt when it's below freezing stuff in their tree and coons on the outside of trees. But that down here, if it gets below thirty two, coons get scarce on the outside. In the delta in the delta appear. It's a little different in the delta, is all I'm speaking about right now. So and if it gets twenty eight, if it's eight and below, if you catch a coon on the outside, he's probably laying dead on the highway, I mean, because it's you just don't see him out there. That they're into then to stay warm. So it's man, it's hovering. It's like thirty four degrees and she's she's circling and barking, and she's really excited. I know she's smelling the coon because I'm watching her. I watched her on the Garmen Way, the way she fed that or struck that track, and you can tell the way she's just moving just in a little intricate left and right and zigzags, and she's moving real slow, so you know she's not chasing something that she's seeing. She's on an actual track. She's smelling a coon. She gets one spot man and she's she doesn't locate, she doesn't do the long ball locate. She just starts barking and then she stopped. So I slipped in. I snuck in there with my red light on. She didn't paying anything to me, and I got with it about forty yards or where she's at, and I look up in the tree and I find a coon. Coon's looking right at me, and she is right beneath it. But it's a leaning tree, so and the coon is like from the trunk of the tree, is out probably twenty and twenty and probably twenty ft off the ground. So she the the coon's been there a long time. You can tell he's in a big, comfortable place where coons would lay up when it's cold like that. So though she just couldn't locate where it was that, she could smell the scent in the air, but she couldn't smell where the coon went up the tree, so, which was really a feat in itself because the track was so old. But she did really good. So but I didn't knock the coon out to her, and she eventually quit it and we went on on home, all positives. She did good. Last night we went I turned her loose and she absolutely scalded the hair off a two deer. She put him down the road. Oh yeah, and I know a dent. It was a deer because I I she took off struck and she started making a loop. She started coming back to me, and I stepped out in this old wood robe, turned my red light on it. A big old oh deer come smoking across the hoop was right behind so it which it's fine. She didn't run it that far. She stopped. She co yeah, she come on, and she come on back to me. I moved down and she she did another one in that time. I give her a little correction on the collar to stop, and she stopped. She come back to me and she hunt after that. Did she keep hunting? Yeah? Man, I remember when I was hunting. When I was hunting Fern r I p Fern. I was one of the first times I went with another good coon hunter that had a good dog, and Fern was probably eleven twelve months old, and turned her loose and it was full moon night and she just scalded. As Brent said something that was not because they just took it out across She by herself just took it out across a wide open field, just barking every breath. I mean just sounds like she's about to catch the thing. I mean, ran it out of here, and you know, and and He's like, no, no, no doubt. It was a trash game and Uh. I was kind of upset about it, you know, just kind of like gone it. Why did she do that? And my buddy said, My buddy was like, Clay, that's good. I mean, she she about she wore that thing out, so she had the desire, she had the want, she had the go and uh because like Brent said, you can break him off off game, but you can't put that fire in them. And so eventually broke her off. Dear. But even as good as Fern was a try and coon's she would run. I never really could figure it out if it was a deer coyotes. But because she was about five years old about once or twice a winner, she just smoked something that wasn't a coon, and you know it wasn't. I had never said that when she was alive. Stimulation, the stimulation that's center on that collar, it was not pain compliance. All that does is a enough to break your concentration. So it was nothing. It would Even Misty has one of those for me, Well you need to turn that up because he tells that story about the Washington. I'm talking to her and it's like I just like I just kind of like went, I don't really feel pain but I just feel like restarted and then she she breaks your concentration. That's all, that's all. But she Brent's hunting who and you've been You've been nutting quite a bit though. Oh yeah, yeah. We had some folks come down, some folks that participated in a contest we had with the Bear Hunting Magazine and Blood Origins, and some folks came down from to live up here northwest Arkansas. Ryan and Heather Harris came down and we hunted with Michael suns By lights. We hunted over there where we hunted. Uh and oh, Josh Isaac, you guys just put a coon hunting video up that we filmed last year. Yeah, we were, we were there. We were there at that plug and um and tree. I think we hunted two nights. It was cold and rainy, and we treat I think lemonre twelve coons both nights, I mean total, you know, so it was we hunt a lot though. That's good, that's good. Talk to me about the coon skins. Well, we I've got six hats made and I went to go start what I thought was gonna be six more. But we're kind of digging into the bottom of the barrel of the coon pads. They're they're getting a little small and scraggly down there. They they they you know, they send those they send those hides back, all strung together. And it's like I didn't I wasn't real strategic about the first ones. I was grabbing out. But somehow they got all the bad ones in the middle and all the nice ones on the outside because I started grabbing. I'm like, wait a minute, I can't so it. Uh. I mean I've got enough. I cut enough pieces that I got four more from half. So how many hats do we have? Will be timid, not counting the one out including that one, and I've got I've got that my first prototype. I can probably turn into a useful one too. What about it if I got you a couple of possum skins, could you make a hat with that? With the nilo It's a great question. There's a difference low on the wood. I'll look forward to seeing those. Let's talk about the topic at hand this fourth episode. That didn't see that one coming? Yeah, what how do you think? It's it's hard to gauge what people would I would think about it. I mean, I got a lot I got a lot of feedback on it, but just you know, you have had to have listened to all the episodes to kind of get why this was significant. Yep. And it was significant for me to go and meet with Claude, who who all just started off at the very beginning, and just say I had a ton of respect for him for meeting with me, and I did my best to really show the character that this guy has. And I mean the whole point of meeting with him and and showing who he was today is to show that you hear about somebody that's a poacher, bad poacher, you would think a certain way about who that person would be. I mean, especially in a day with internet and internet forums and just we label people so quickly of who this this person is, and then when you see somebody that the result or thirty years later, they're not who you thought they would be. I think that's real healthy for us to not be so quick to really bring judgment on somebody, you know, and um, and so it was really interesting one to meet with Claude, who I really do have a lot of respect for. What do you guys think? I listened to it twice and I I felt like, you know, such an incredible story from both sides. But I really felt like Claude was kind of the hero of the story. I mean not because not just because he got his story out, you know. You know, we can look at and say, well, he really wasn't that mad at a guy. He had seventy four game violations, but he really wasn't that bad of a guy. But he I appreciated so much how transparent he was about everything and how he didn't let that thing define him, you know, and he didn't carry a resentment, but instead he literally made an overnight change of who he was and how he was going to live the rest of his life. And man, that that thing opens up doors. I feel like the decisions that he made opened up doors for success in business, success with his family. Who knows what it could have done to his marriage, you know, but now you look at him now and you think that's not something that just happened, but really that his life was the product of those decisions thirty years ago, and that makes that guy hero. You know. He didn't the system didn't reform him. His choices reformed them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If we were all known if our biography or if our label, it was all from the worst day that we ever had, you know, I mean everybody you see would be bad. That guy did something and he learned his lesson and he became obviously a very important part of that community, which puts him in my community. And years, if we're hunters, he were all in that community. He did he proved that what what was set out to do worked and that I would I would. That guy's welcome to go hunting with me anytime. You know, I read a book about Neil Armstrong. For years, he wouldn't do any kind of interviews. It wouldn't do anything, wouldn't talk about anything as far as him going, you know, being the first guy on the moon. And he was up in his seventies, early seventies when they wrote this book, when he authorized this book to be and the guy was interviewing and asked him why he didn't cash in on being the first guy to step on the moon because once it once he came back, he got out of space program and he went and taught at a college in Ohio, taught engineering. He didn't do book tours, he didn't do speaking engagements, he didn't do anything about it, and the guy told me said, well, he didn't think it was right for him to receive all the accolades when it was nearly took nearly four hundred thousand people working together to get him to the moon. And he said there there was nobody in that system that was any or that he wasn't as important as anybody else or more important anybody else in it. And he did not want to be known for one singular accomplishment when he had lived his whole life, that was something he did one day. And you can look at this the same way. Yeah, So that's like the positive, positive side of it, but also you can apply it to the negative. Yeah, And I wouldn't. I mean I have I don't have any sympathy. I have empathy for him because it affected his whole family, and that I wouldn't want to be known for just one singular thing. If it was if I was gonna be known for one single thing, it wouldn't have any thing to do with my work. It would have something to do with I can't literally discuss that yet, are we under I think I think it was good. It's a great lesson, and I'm I'm really pleased and proud that the guy did what he did. That's pretty good. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about the nature of the justice system and how it often functions versus how we say it is to function. Right, we aspire to have a restorative justice system where you have transgressed, you go through this, and you don't do that anymore, Like that's what the system is supposed to be set up. Oftentimes we don't approach it in that way, and I think that's a rabbit hole that we could go down, and there's no point in doing it because it will take forever and probably not produce much fruit. But this is a perfect example of restorative justice. Like he's guilty, he said it so on the podcast. But then that to me and I think probably to you, which is why you did this episode, is less interesting than how he reacted once that happened, and we can see that throughout the fruit of his life. You talked about it with his kids, how he has good relationships with his kids who are productive members of society. I think the Bowling Alley is an incredible example. Not to say that it's altruism or whatever, like I'm gonna it's it's a business, right, but the idea that he invested in this thing in this small community, and it's like it's going to provide an outlet for kids and people to have believe Like these are all examples of like the fruit of changing and going in a different direction and saying I'm going to be a productive member of society. I'm going to give back to society. Yeah. I felt like you made a very compelling case in the podcast about this, so much so that when we got to the point where it was like Andy lost his hunting license forever, I was like, dang, Like I mean, it hit me, like I was like, that sucks, Like he seems like such a great dude. I that sucks that he can't hunt anymore. And then like obviously we were resolved that in the nature of the story, and and I just felt like it showed the powerful impact of hoping for redemption in a story, you know what I mean? Um. And also a side thing, This may be speaking out of term, but uh, I just uh speaking to the listening audience, Like Claude didn't ask for any of this to happen to him the podcast, and I feel like you had mentioned that it was turning a lot of attention on him, and so I just would I think I think it'd be cool to appeal to the audience to say, if you are in a position to go there or interact with him, like, be cool. Uh. And even if you're even if it's a positive thing, if you want to support him, just remember that he didn't ask for any of this attention. This happened years ago. Like the old guy outside the sporting goods store said, like you you're talking about it like it happened yesterday. This happened years ago. Man. You know, I really did apologize to Claude. And when you record an apology and listen to it, you sometimes wish you'd have done it different, But so you're gonna do it again. Well, no, for me, it was interesting. I actually talked to Steve you know about it about I said, uh, I was getting his advice and kind of how to handle this thing. And uh, and I told him, I said, man, it never even occurred to me that these guys would still be here. I mean, I don't know why. I thought, like all poach, all poachers are like old and not here anymore, you know what I mean. And like all these guys are still here well, and there was some like modicum of respect for that because we from but it just feels so removed, like why would they hear about it or what? Yeah, you know what I mean. Well, it kind of even goes into the idea of what you how you handle a criminal quote unquote, like someone who's been it's just like there there they you know, they're not as an important there there to be cast out of society, well in terms of like far but just no, I mean like in terms of the social graces that we afford them. And so I never so I told Ronella, I said, uh, I said, it never even occurred to me that these guys are still around. And he laughed and said, Clay, as a writer, you always have to assume that they're very much alive. And he laughed and I was like, noted, uh, And not that I would have done anything different. I mean like I just wouldn't have not, Like the story was interesting to me and we had access. So much of these stories we tell are have a lot to do with access to people. And that's something that people probably wouldn't understand from the outside because I get stuff almost every day with people saying how you should do a podcast on this or this, or they see we're interested in something like this, And I said, oh, then you'd be interested in this. So much of it has to do with just access that you almost can't script. And we're up there with Chip Growth. Are good, buddy, Chip Growth. And he goes, hey, I wrote a book. I the Yeah, Lewis Wetzel. Yeah, And he goes, you know, I have access to RT Steward. If I talked to RT, he talked to you. And and so we we go and do it and it's a fascinating story and uh and and I loved it. And we went out of our way to hide the identities of these people, which in the book it didn't And so I felt like, yeah, and I feel like we were going kind of above and beyond. Well. On the way down here, I was talking to my buddy Nathaniel, who got us that Turkey Call article from and he said he was going through the article, the Turkey Call n WTFS publication. It published their names. It's still out there, you know. Yeah, So it's not like we uncovered something that that wasn't known. But I'm going back to my apology to Cloth is I. I really did. I said, I'm you know, I'm sorry for what this might the attention this might have brought to you, you know, But I really feel like how he handled himself on the podcast was was noble. I really do, and I hope that it brings uh, you know. We talked about his businesses and stuff, and I mean, you know, if you want to support them, go buy a go go by. So let me say something that before I forget it. This burns me more than anything is. I said, the name of the restaurant is the Blue Bell Restaurant in Mcconnell'sville, Ohio. I said blue Bird, blue blue Bell, It's blue Bell. So that was my bad. So that is an official correction. Repercussion and crowd Dad, which we're both wrong. It's repercussions and crawl fish, crayfish. Let's hold on, we'll come back to this. We'll come back to this. So the restaurant, holy cow, for real, if you're in Mcconnellsville, if you were within an hour and a half of Mcconnellsville, I'd drive there to eat breakfast. This is fantastic breakfast, great atmosphere, and everybody in that restaurant wanted to talk to Claude Maxwell. Really, I mean, nobody, nobody knew who I mean, I was just sitting there. I was just a dude sitting there. Everybody want to talk to Claude. Everybody walked by was trying to get his attention. It's like, he's that kind of guy. He really is, and he so anyway, that's honorable. It's an honorable life. And that's when I realized that we probably weren't the most popular crew for bringing this all back up on the national state, rubbing a little assault of this. Well, I mean, for real, it's it's been gone for thirty years, so that you know, like I said, just bringing it back to like the fact that like we are not uh, we're not uh putting our stamp of approval on poaching. What is so interesting is the redemption, the choices that he made after and I think that like one of the pieces of evidence for his change is his willingness to go on record and talk to you and be like, hey, I was wrong, but here's my life now. And I think that's such a privilege. I don't want to lose sight of the fact that it was a privilege to get to tell this story, and a privilege that he chose to give you time and to I don't know, I'm I'm very thankful for that. What do you think, Dad, Well, y'all, ye have done a nice job covering it. I would just say that he was the exact same guy when he was doing this RTI saw that he was a good guy. He just was got involved with peer pressure and felt like it wasn't that big of a deal, you know, even though really he knew it was a big deal. I feel like, I mean, you know, you just know you you know it's breaking the law. But he had all the inner workings and hidden mechanisms to be successful in this life. And he took a little detour, and the detour brought him back probably to his destiny he was gonna have anyway, and made him probably better. You know, It's what I thought. Artis saw it. He was a quality guy. You know, he had he had a lot of stuff going for him. Um. It makes you wonder when Artie talks about having that urge to call him and tell him that the raid was happening, what would have been the trajectory of his life if he had warned him or something. I thought if he would have eventually had that break or if this was the thing that he needed to all right, let's get the ship headed in the right direction. Now, I don't know, you know, it's not things like this aren't clear. Like I agree with what Dad said, and if there's one thing that that I could do, it's not different. But if you were just telling a more complex story, Yeah, I don't think target number two back in it was necessarily a bad guy. Like it wasn't like he had he I think you talked to him and it would be the same cloud I talked to, just a little detour and you know, like he said, he didn't view himself as a bad person. I mean he wasn't. So so what would have happened if this would have been prolonged for a period of time, like maybe probably would have grown out of Probably he would have They would have been pressures that would have come around his life where he's like, Okay, I'm gonna have to do stuff different. This was just a hard smack. And you know, you you gotta be careful how you say this stuff because you know, I'm playing both sides of the fence, Like you know, I'm I'm promoting law enforcement and RT and and UH and and what the Ohio D and R did or you know, I'm telling their story like, hey, this is this is good stuff. But now I'm also interested in cloud story and I and this. Honestly, I feel loyalty to both of them and and um so it's a tricky It felt tricky on the inside of me being loyal to both sides of this story duplicitus. Well maybe not, but uh, but it was. It was probably one of the most interesting situations I've been in since I've been doing this here podcast. You shouldn't feel it. You shouldn't feel torn one way or the other because it's it worked out like it's supposed to. Yeah, you did a great job, there was. It's the people that I'm most concerned about. Well, that's what I'm talking about. You know that somebody was doing wrong. The law went in, they took care of it. The guy paid his debt. That's it's over with, unless he it was they make a podcast about you thirty years Yeah, that's the part I feel bad about. It. Could it could work out for him better though, I mean, yeah, it's a it's a flip of coin. It could something good could come from this. Yeah, well, and that's what that's what I hope that for sure. What's the name of the town first happens. What's the name of the town, Mcconnellsville, Mcconnellsville. I smell a Target number two coffee shop. Yeah, a great town. Is a great town. It's right on this big river. What do you think of the fishing community. What do you think the contention of bear grease listeners within an hour and a half of McConnell's phill is how many? I have no idea. Are you thinking seventy two thousand? There is there's one Bengals fan. We know that this is yeah. Uh, I like, Ohio, can we get all of them to go there? Not ask for Claude, not be weird about it, just buy some stuff from his Yeah, big tips, Yeah, yeah, they're they're sharp family man. And and uh and the what was the was there a rooftop place? Yeah, there's a pizza place, real nice. I called the pizza place one day to uh. I was actually trying to get ahold of it. Was before I had had an official introduction to Claude. And it was the best, like a voicemail. It was like after hours or something before they opened during the day, and it was like super polished and professional. My mouth was watering by the time I got done. It was like giving you the menus, like thanks for calling Maxwell's Pizza. Try our cheese sticks. No, no, I mean it's not like a major national franchise. And I was like, you forgot why you were calling. But it was good Dad, What were you gonna say? Uh? He survived for a lot of reasons. One thing, he's smart, smart guy. But he had two good families, really good families. And I mean that tells you a lot about him. He's got two good families. And he had a wonderful wife. I mean his wife was unbelievable. I mean she saw the whole thing. And because of that, here's our resident expert right here. I mean, really, Judy. I just marvel almost daily as I get older and wiser of how Judy is right so many times, and she can move me and direct me and you know, get me pointed in the right direction, and uh, what did you do that was so bad? Well? Every day, this every day when I'm talking three podcasts for another time, it's every day. I mean, you know, it wouldn't be awesome if dad was like a criminal and we could do a podcast and do you mind committing some crimes if if it is actually undercover, he's he's only become friends with you. But but to finish it off. I mean, I want to hear what uh a wife and a mother thought about this, misty, what do you think? Okay, oh, wow, she's got notes. I don't have notes I have. I wanted to make sure I quoted it right. No. Discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees, make level paths for your feet so that the lay may not be disabled, but rather healed. And I think that discipline, punishment consequences can either cripple a person drop it can either you know, completely destabilized and destroy a person. I think that's I think that's a new testament. Okay, um can either destabilize and destroy someone or can cause them to become more stable, to become stronger, can be can be trained, You can be trained by it, and I think there's kind of two pieces here. He was trained by discipline, but you saw how it nearly ruined his life. I mean the way he talked about the depths of despair that he went into, and I don't think you even covered that as as much as as your conversation would have led on. But so there is something in him that responded to that well. And I think what Gary says is right. I think his wife really helped him. I think just from the stories his family, you know, he was pulled forward by the things he did have left. But I think that you know, you can have difficult circumstances, the consequences of your own actions, whatever you want to call it, can completely destroy a person. But I think it speaks to his character and I think it speaks to the strength of the people around him that he was able to allow this to be something that changed him. And I but I do think it it changed him also. He Uh, if he would have been just average Joe poacher, it wouldn't bothered him that much. You know, it really bothered I mean, he he beat on himself so hard, but he was smart enough and had to support pull out of it. And come back like a racehorse. Yeah, I mean he came out there running wide open. Yeah. That's a good point. And that's the thing that when when when something negative comes on you, so many, so many people would would fold in bitterness or or they would have set out to try to prove to the man that they didn't have to stand under his authority. I mean, really, a lot of guys that get caught end up getting embittered, and they spend the rest of their life trying to just like truck, don't even care, just go holy call, all right, so I got caught and just keep doing whatever you do. Yeah, it really bothered him, which tells you what we've said. He was a quality guy. Yeah, well he was, and and that brings me back. I actually now remember what I was saying. When I was saying I'm playing both sides of the fence about ten minutes ago, I was talking about that is that is that though mccondlesville folks, not Claude, didn't tell me this, it's just what I felt when I was there. They all felt like they came down real heavy handed on these guys trying to make a statement to the world, make an example out of him, which we know, i'll know is true and that happens, Well, that's effectively what you were talking about with your caribou and wolf analogy. It may seem harsh and in the moment, but and it's unfortunate for this population, for that single caribou. But I don't know if I don't know if i'd used the word necessary. But it does send a message to coach. And it's and and it's and and this is where you have to be careful because it's it's not like you're being you know, somebody said, well, you're being soft on poachers if you feel sorry for these guys that we're breaking the law that did get caught in the and the heavy hand of the law came down on them. And you might say, well, they were guilty of every bit of it. Well, you know what, I've hunted without a hunter's orange before and didn't get the ticket for it. Keep going, you see what I've said. I mean, literally, there's a guy and I know what it feels like to have a guy undercover following you single thing you do that and then having to give a recompense for every like it was. It was heavy handed and I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying it's kind of a bummer for Claude, kind of bummer for all these guys. And that's that's kind of the consensus of the community. And I think we'd be the same way if that had happened to And by us, I mean just somebody. Well, it's it's I mean going back to restorative justice versus punitive justice. It's like, the thing that is compelling about restorative justice is it makes our community better. The thing that's problematic about punitive justice is that we often want punitive justice for other people, but we want restorative justice for ourselves because we can we know the story and we can tell a different story of why it was okay that we did it, or apologize for it. It's like we want justice, quote unquote justice for them, but we want grace for ourselves. And that's why it's important to have a system that trends towards restorative justice. And that's why we like stories like this where it's like it worked. And I'm not sure that honestly, what I don't know what you're saying is actually I don't know that our justice system is designed or that people want it to be, and you're using the word restorative. I think in the injustice literature would be more rehabilitative. You know, like when you're looking at drugs, there's a big conversation. Are we trying to rehabilitate these guys? Are we trying to punish them for the crime they did? And that's a big, huge question that people are trying to to figure out. And I think that that, you know, I don't know that it's like determined, oh, we want to rehabilitate criminals. I think, you know, we have the death row, we have life sentences, and those are not rehabilitative in nature. So I'm not sure that is a decision that's been made by the American public or I think that's just a conversation that keeps happening. But I think that that's the point, Like, I don't think it's like a done and everybody agrees we need to be rehabilitating criminals. I'm I think it's a converse national conversation that is unresolved, and you know, we're probably given way too much credit to the punitive action and this specific thing, like and the Dad's point, I don't think it was you know all that happened to him that turned claud into who it was a wake up call. Yeah, because you could because there's probably guys on that same team who had similar consequences who did not change by it. That's That's kind of what I'm trying to say, is I think that there's something in you have a choice about how you respond to. Why I love Claude Maxwell. He responded correctly to getting smacked, not for anybody else's sake, but for his own. I mean, he he just he just he just went forward and it has done well and and him doing well to me. I said it on the podcast, but I say it again. It's not didn't everything to do with business success, but like he wasn't an intact man. He's been married for however long, I mean decades, decades, decades, and you know a lot about somebody when you meet their grown children, watch them interact, I mean for real, like just people. Hey. One of my favorite parts of the whole thing was the story about the little boy thinking everybody was having a party in him trying to show him how to get things. That was good about that. Yeah, yeah, and he uh, he's like his dad too. I mean he's pretty sharp cat. He said, Dad, you need to do this, and I think he was right. I think this is gonna help him some way. I think something good will come from this. Um, I deeply I hope. So yeah, Claude, Claude would be welcome on the Bargras Surrender anytime, or cast his son, any of them. You know, cast is super sharp. The other thing that I didn't do real well is the bowling alley and the restaurant are actually castes. Yeah, and I boy, we just had such a short production window for this one because I just went there and then just turned around and did it. And uh and and I just wasn't able to clarify some of that stuff. But but but I should have done a better job at that. But fantastic series. I think it was. It was, it was, It was real. Like what was kind of unique about it is that this wasn't a fabricated story, real story. All the stories are real, but it kind of happened. Happened in a way that surprised me. Even so Bigary's Baby, I like it. Any foreshadowing of what's coming up, Oh yeah, hold on, you'll see this right here. Yes, this was made by a famous Arkansas duck call maker. Brant. Do you know the name of that? Do you know that name? I'm trying to read it. Jim Stinson in Clarendon. Yeah, and let's hear a duck That's a beautiful duck call. Let's hear a duck call. That's pretty excellent. Look at awesome. That is the only foreshadow you get. That is the only foreshadow you get. Man, Hey, Merry Christmas to everybody. Thank you, thanks for listening. We didn't sing. I think that they'll be okay everybody, everybody, everybody picked your own song. Then three, well, everybody has a great, great Christmas. Hope, oh, you have a great Christmas that are here in the room. And uh, I think the next Burger shrender will be after the first of the year. Marches on. I think John Anderson has a song about that. Years we see Tracy Lawrence Lawrence, Yeah, sing it, Brent. I don't I going to sing the John Anderson version. Come on, I don't know it. All right, Merry Christmas, everybody, We wish you Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy New Year. Jingle? Who is to write that was true?

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