00:00:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, my name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. We need to get some mustache wax as part of the restaurant. Daniel Rope can keep his mustache. Okay, I'm fresh out. I had some right there. Oh that would that would be spectacular. Yeah, too bad for those of us that have some stage you look great. We should get Misty a fake mustache. Feel so out of place. I don't feel like an outsider. Yeah, that would be That would be really good. You can wear one of those turkey beards. Good I feel. Let's get the fake mustache. Misty gets a mustache for sure. Hey, welcome, Welcome to the bear Gara Surrender. Fantastic to see everybody here today. It's it is it is. Okay. Envision envision yourself in nineteen and ninety nine. Okay, and think about talking about water. Had my water pure fire stoke exactly that's serious. Yeah, I'm still ready for y kN entire container full of peno beans. My mom stop? My mom got a pound, you got a stop? You got a contagner full of what peno band piano pinto no poo as well be saying acorn. I do say acorn sometimes. Yeah, yeah, get out background my family. I don't want to know. Okay, back to my original question here, Um you guys a question and ran I don't even hear a question. I think it was. What I was trying to get at was Okay, if you're going from one to two, it doesn't sound like that big of a leap. Okay, But imagine I wrote two today for the first time, wrote it on a piece of paper for whatever, you know, dating something, you did this, or I'll show you what I did. Look in that little note right there one, and I thought, godly, can you imagine in the nineteen nineties, you know, I would have been a teenager thinking about two. Okay, stop that, stop that thought, and now think about five? Do you see my point? Brent's open for next week. Point being time seems to be continuing to progresses, So happy New Year, Happy New Year. I don't see what kind of this questions that we don't get to answer. He actually answers for us. It feels a little bit like do you remember deep thoughts with Jackie? A little bit? A little bit jack had except not funny. I'm not sure the Addex guys and Rusty Johnson would have given me this much flak. You're because they only spent a week with you. We've known you since nineteen ninety nine. Dealing with the fallout I think I've met you in nineteen would have been no. Twenty three years ago, the longest out of prison by man, I know, and be done with it. Well, wow, I said all that to say Happy New Year. We have one mystery guest with us. If you were if you really followed Burgaris, you could probably guess who it is. You could guess the patterns. Yeah, you can see the patterns, the pattern and here's the patter, and you can guess. Be thinking, if you listen to the last podcast, which you should have, the fulsome part four, the Miss the Unsolved Mystery of Fluted Stone, you there would have been a guest on there that's here today. I'll introduce him here in just a minute, as is our custom. But to my left. Dr Daniel Route, great to see you. Happy to be here. Really you considered shaving your beard after you saw mine. Well, your mustache does look really good. That's the nicest thing you ever said to me. I know, and I really hate to say it. I'm begrudgingly said it looks good. A little too good. Okay. To your left is our mystery guest who will come back to to his laft, Josh Lambridge spillmaker. Hello, Happy new year, to see you my My biggest desire, my thing to see this year is the render when we all get together and that chair just breaks on Daniel, It's that's gonna be good. To your left back for wherever he came from, Brent Reeves. Hello, great to see Brett. It's good to be seen. Everybody heard Brett's holiday greeting. We appreciated party. Oh I hate to miss that more than anything. And the cookies. I don't guess nobody saved him. We all got one one and then no more. We did leave an empty chair for you last night. I took a picture of it. That was good. We've been traveling man for the holidays and all that been to Texas and meeting folks meeting render people, fans of the render down there. David McDaniels a good guy. You think there was a lot of us talk to him here, absolute wonderful guy, good family guy. Had a couple of coffee with him here. I bought it. So the next one you send me the bill. Can you imagine that means when I go through Texas, he's buying. You've been cooting hunt a lot. I've been cooing hunting a lot and went last night. Man, it's like twenty five degrees. Michael Roseman suns apot lights calls me. He says, how are you going hunting to night? To move my theory? And so I'm going hunting tonight the trier coon, he said, what my theory is that they don't They don't And I don't think it's a theory, he said, he gets like twenty eight degrees. Coons don't move. They do move that What they do is they move around in the in the dent. Try when you're dog trees on them, but they ain't coming out. So there would be there would be a different temperature regiment for different parts of the world because there's parts of the coon range where twenty eight degrees. If they didn't move below twenty eight, they would never move. But down where Brentson, which is further south than even here, that's pretty during cold and it does matter to the recent weather patterns. So we've had this super warm December and then it got super duper cold. And that's what I remember. When I first started coon hunt in high school. Jeff Cunningham, who was who got us, me and my other buddy coon hunting. We wanted to go coon hunting on a real cold night and he was like, Clay, these are the nights that those coons eat all year round so they don't have to leave the den. And we didn't believe him, and we went coon hunting, and we rarely treat anything was super cold for the region. My thing was, I like, I just enjoy. I fixed me a thermoset of coffee. I'd loaded the dog up and we hit the woods and I said, out there in the do is something great about hunting when it's cold and it's clear, man, you could hear forever. And when he did, when he did strike and opened up and tree, it was he was probably three sixty yards away. I think I looked on my tracker man, it sounds like he was just right there. So yeah, it sounded good. You know, sound does travel different on a cold night. Crisper clear good Man Brandt. Gotta go coon on to Brent's left. My boss and scheduling manager who I would like to request to coon hunt with Brent for my wife, miss Nice to be here. I definitely don't want that job. I quit. I'm going to be the boss, but good with that one. I don't want the scheduling manager. That would be kind of stressful. Hey, Missy went squirrel huting with me the other day. It's a yah. I would like to can I speak for you? Listen, you guys. I haven't shot a big old shotgun like that a whole lot since I was a little girl. I remember having a good shot, Brent, will remember from bear Camp when you and Isaac were trying to teach me that I have a left eye, dominance, crazy in the head, whatever. So so I'll just be honest. I'm not a great shot. I haven't shot a lot of squirrels like ever. So Clay tells me, hey, come with me and we're going to have a lot of fun. This is and he you know, when he takes the boys, he gets some candy like some of our kids with me. First off, no, I was expecting candy and you said I could speak freely. Second second, hold off, he actually did candy. I don't want to say I want candy exactly. I'm sorry. So then we go and we shoot. I can't even remember. I just remember that clayt started mocking me, like actually mocking me and hold his tongue. Not just mocking me while shooting, but afterwards, when we would be around other like expert shooters, he would start mocking my I mean just just I would walk up and I didn't know what was happening, but there was lots of giggling and it had to do with me, and it had to do with that gun. And I told Clay, these are this is the worst. What is it? Our three? Is that what they call it? Recruitment? Yeah, this is the worst hunter recruitment strategy I have ever seen in my life. You it's not like I woke up that morning and thought, gosh, I really love squirrel hunting. No I did not. Here's the question, did you enjoy it? I did? I had a great time. Okay, she said all that we had a fantastic, wonderful Yeah. And I'm gonna go ahead and the host of this show, I'm gonna go ahead and say that I did not mock her. I did giggle just a little bit because the first the first squirrel that we shot at. Stop. This is this is terrible. Yeah, this is horrible hunter recruitment. If people feel like if they go hunting with you, you're gonna I was just trying to help you hit the squirrel. Her. I just gave her a small bit of feedback on that was all. I was a don't mess it up. No, it was it was very very clear, articulate feedback. And then giggled about it with others later. I'm sorry for that, and then giggled about it. That's the that's the part that really stung, you know, like we had this great time and then I walk up at all the Christmas parties we went to. Sure would have been nice to have a little more candy and a little less giggling. Just a little more candy and a little less giggling, it makes you feel better. I've hunted with Clay a fair amount and he's never bought me candy. He bought me he's never stopped giggling. I don't know that he's ever he actually might have giggled at me. I remember at the time when we that famous picture of this on Instagram. Now, when we were young and you were good looking and I was not that hog that you've got so beautifully displayed out on the rock there. Do you remember that? How that went down? I don't know what you're doing it. Yeah, here's what happened. We we pull we pulling to the to the National Force and he's like, he's like, hey, I think there's some hogs. I bet there's some hogs down here. And I'm like, awesome. I'm I'm so excited because he told me so many stories about killing hogs. And we get out and we have to climb the hill to this field and he said, we get to the corner of the field, he's got his bow, I've got mine. Well, I say mine Gary Newcoms's old book, and uh, we're in Gary Newcom's old pants, probably probably, And he said, here's what we're gonna do. If we see some hogs, We're both gonna draw and I'll count to three and we'll both shoot at the same time. I'm like okay. So sure enough we crest the hill and it's it's barely shooting light. I mean, it's just about to be dark. And he goes look at that, and there's probably half a dozen hogs out and uh He's like, okay, you draw, I'll draw, and uh I draw, and Clay's goes one, two and he just drills this hog and the hogs scatter. What happened to three? Shoot on three? Man, he's supposed to get that squared away. I totally forgot about that because I actually had really really started over. Let me say though, and this is connected to our mystery. Guess who I'm gonna introduce. My first cousin, Todd Marriott and I successfully pulled off a double um where we drew on hogs. We were in tree stands counter to three. We had a little more time to plan. Did Todd do the count? To Clay's credit, it was a very last minute like cants. And we pulled past the spot that I thought, I bet there's some hogs up there, and I mean we jumped out of the truck and literally within five minutes to minutes, I had killed a hog. The other time with Todd, it was a little more. It was a little more strategic, quite strategic. We went in, found a white oak, acren tree, drop rain and acorns, hog sign all underneath it, went in hung stands, woke up way too early because we didn't set our clocks back and it was a time change, and we got into tree like hours before daylight set. There daylight hugs came in killed them just like, well pretty much killed them. It's a long story. It's a really long story. But that's connected to Rick Spicer Mystery Guests because Rick knows my other first Todd's brother Sean Marriott's right on this podcast, Rick Spicer. Rick, Yes, hand clap for Rick. So Rick was the falsome napper on which was riveting audio. By the way, Well, that's so you just captured at all. But no, I really appreciate it being able to be part of that. I had a great time. Yeah. So, so the trend with guests that you could in the future be able to forecast who's going to be here. If you're local, you know, I'll try to get you on the render, you know what I mean. But like so the other guests would have been runnella Who's in Montana podcast? He knows better. I think you're setting yourself up right here, like, well, there's what I'm saying. I mean, i'd be careful. It's not there's nothing. There's no heart and fast rules. I think that Rick is special, and that's why he Rick came in like last minute and had not made many folsome points. So it's not like Rick is like the national fulsome guy. He is a fantastic flint napper, though he looked. He gave me this piece when I was listening to this on the way up here, and he started working on that folsome what I thought, Man, it's gonna be so cool everybody on the ringe. It's gonna get a false Hey, this is gorgeous. I'm holding the one Rick made and it is beautiful. Thank you that that's not a falsome point. How would you describe that point? Rick? Uh, that's basically a pretty standard arrowhead. It's a side notch point um with some fairly heavy serrations, so it doesn't follow any specific it's just a functional It's just a point, exactly, and that that's exactly what I made that. Let's say you're a paleolithic hunter. You've suddenly appeared in North America by which way is a complete mystery to modern science and all of us. And you got a big piece of stone. What kind of stone point are you making to put on your arrow? Well? A lot of it has and you know nothing that you know. Now, I'm gonna make the easiest thing I can write, like what tools do? I mean? I've actually put myself in similar situations before where I like walked out into the woods with nothing and tried to be like what can I make? You know, I've I've done things like the most extreme example, I lived for a month one time out in the woods with nothing. Really did you really? Yeah, we're swamp in Louisiana? Really did you? Oh? Wow? We need more info on that answer the question then we're going back to that. We're going back no side tracks. The question is what kind of stone point would you make? So the reason that the the idea is that maybe Rick would have been the one that came up with a falsoen point. Let's see. So yeah, it has everything to do with like what tools have available to me? What type of stones around? But essentially the first thing you're gonna do is like try to break the thing. It's like you're gonna pick up this rock and figure out how to break it. And you can do that by hitting the rock on something, or pick up another rock and hit that rock with it. And it's gotta be the right kind of rock, though, it's gotta be it does metamorphic, or it's gonna be harder. Yeah, it's gonna be harder than the rock that you're hitting, harder than the church itself for the flint that you're hitting, because if it's not, it's just gonna break when you hit it. Right, if you pick up a piece of sandstone and try to hit it, it's just what I'm saying. The you can't just go out here and pick up a piece of limestone and nap it because it's the Geologically the structure of the stone is not right. That you need a stone that's a morphous or that is uh consistent throughout because if it has a lot of impurities, it won't. So the the entire napping process is built around a concept called the Hurtzian cone um, either the Hurtzian cone or the conchoidal fracture. You ever take a BB gun and shoot a window, what happens to the back of the window I've never done that. Let's just call it a piece of glass. How about that? Don't have to be a window. What happens to the to the bb though, when it hits the wind, What does the glass do? No, not necessari mean it might, but if it doesn't break, I should have prefaced that cone. That's a hertzy and cone. Okay, and so and because glass is crystal, it's amorphous in nature. Okay, it's the same throughout. So we're looking for stone that has that same type of properties. So if you taken a rock and you strike it with another rock, what you're getting when you strike it is a you're creating a hertzy and cone. So it's in other words, it's a predictable angle that you know what's gonna happen when you hit it. And that is what makes napping possible, is because once you understand what angle to hit the stone, you can predict the angle at which the stone will break, and that allows you to craft it in. When you're working with stone that is consistent throughout exactly, that would eliminate sedimentary stone right within within reason. But yes, um, for the most part, Yeah, you're not gonna be working with limestone or sandstone. So yeah, no, no sedimentary rocks. H as far as what you would be nap ping. Okay, So going back to you living in the woods for a month, define for us what having nothing means. The clothes on my that I walked in with really just walked in with some clothes. Yeah, that was actually part of a History Channel project that I did. Yeah, what was that? It's a show called Alone the Beast? Uh And you can watch it on who you watch on that? You can watch it on saw it you saw? Rick, I'll come back to you now back I thought I was having a flash. Three people. Yeah, there's three people, and it's like a process or not not a limit, but it's basically can you make it? The three people? A hippie? I feel like there's always in those shows on a different episode, not on mine. Is there any way that you all think that this story will now overshadow the story of me, the perception of me to my wife. We'll bring that up appropriate, Yeah, okay, go ahead, Rick, know I the only reason I bring it up is because like that, you know, well, first of all, there's no rocks in Louisiana. I don't know if anyone knows that or not. I don't spend any time down there. So one of the things that was most frustrating to the whole experiences, I've developed the skill, and I couldn't do it. There were no rocks to while I was down there. So it's you know, in a way, it's sort of pointless that I'm bringing up in the sense that I wasn't able to realize those skills or to test myself in that situation. But I have done it here. Once you get done with this story, I've got a story of why there are no rocks in Louisiana. But one time I lived in the woods. One day we started out. We worked out how to cut up an alligator with read. Yeah, yeah, we yeah, we processed a whole alligator with a common read. There were three of us in the beginning, so you're working together. Were you competing and not to know it was a team effort. Nobody the anti surviv No, It's like, yeah, it was weird that they shouldn't collaborate because I don't think I'm under any like contracts or anything anymore. But like the name was really misleading. There was we weren't alone ever, so like they tried to hook it onto the other successful series of the because it was like the same network, but like they should have called it something totally different. And I think that was a lot of the issues that had with promoting it is because we weren't alone, and we weren't filming ourselves. I mean we would at night, but we were there was a whole film crew during the daytime. So not only will we not alone in the sense that there were other people in the experience with us, but there was a whole film crew six days a week out there with us asterisks like alone, right, I think you're going I think that we should all suggest alternate names together in the woods alone? Yeah, so good? You did you guys? You didn't get support from these people though, No, Yeah, it was we were out there figuring it out, and I mean I lost. I'm not a big guy, and I think I lost twenty three pounds. Uh. Yeah by the time it was all over. Crew were they eating? Would they just pus? They were. I have a lot of respect for those because because they respected us, they never ate in front of us, not once. Uh, And so yeah, they were Actually I really got along well with the camera guys that were there. They were very encouraging, you know, they were they were cool for sure. And in fact, you we would know they would leave and we were like, they're they're eating We come back, and they would they'd come back and we'd be like, did you guys have for lunch? That may always find a way to change the subject or something, you know, to be like, don't really know what you're talking about. We were having a meeting, you know, something like that. We were interesting. So, so Rick is the Flint and Appers episode? Yeah, no kidding, Yeah, you know, I know Clay Hayes who won. Yeah, that's a big deal, it is. Yeah, I mean, not only did he win five hundred thousand dollars, but he stayed in the woods. And and I would have I've never watched those kind of shows. We we just don't have network television twenty years, so I never no candy, no TV we're seeing. I would be pretty unfamiliar with these kind of shows. And when I talked to Clay, it was it was interesting talking to him because I talked to him after he had won, but during the period of time when he couldn't tell anybody if he won, right, and he was under contractual give it to not give any intel. Yeah. I followed him out the parking lot to what kind of truck? D Oh, you got a brand new fort. I mean, this is not like private intel. This is the whole marketing of the show. So I'm not like giving a Saturday. That's what I understood. And he said it was one legit. I mean he said, they turn you loose. And he was in British Columbia. Actually, I've got several friends who have been on that show. Uh, and it's legit, like they're they're not playing. They come in for medical periodic medical checks to make sure that people aren't gonna die. Ye, Clay is thin. He's a thin guy. He put he put on as much weight as he could before, so he put on twenty pounds, which was really hard for him, put on twenty pounds, and then he lost He lost twenty pounds in the first twenty days, I'm pretty sure, and then he stayed seventy four days. But man, on those show I kind of got to once Clay was on there, I started following it and kind of started getting some intail from other seasons. And usually it's one or two things that happened. That gives someone this major advantage. And they were in a very non game rich area of British Columbia, and Clay is an excellent traditional archer. He killed a deer at some point and it was the only big game animal killed. As as I recall in the whole show, like ten items, isn't like ten? I believe that's right. Yeah, get a list of ten things. One of the items will be an RV. One of mine would have been gummy. Just send these to my wife so when I came home one day before, she'd be happy. Okay, back to we're recording there, back to why there are no rocks, and Louis Sianna, I'm serious, I have a really legitimate answer. Do you know this? The son? But I would be curious. Environmental soil science know this. That's just operation. The best thing to do is just not and then let him say whatever you know. Okay, Okay. The Washing Tall Mountain are the place where the South American continent bumped in North American continent. The mountains buckled. At one time, those mountains were ten thousand feet tall. The Washingtall Mountains only mountain range running east and west in between the Rockies and the Appalachians. Those mountains were snow capped. And at one time we're on the coast of what we would call a g I mean, it wasn't the Gulf of Mexico at that time, Joshua. At that time there was no country of Mexico, um, but still have Mexican Allow Ocean came all the way up to the interior of what is now Arkansas, and so there would have been a ten thousand foot plus range of coastal mountains where the Washingtons now are. Those mountains eroded over time and filled in what is now called the Washatal Basin, which the Washington Basin is essentially parts of East Texas, all of Louisiana, and parts of western Mississippi. And so the sediment of the Washingtals formed Louisiana and all that stuff and all the rocks stayed here. So Louisiana is the runoff Louisiana is it filled in the ocean and then the rocks when you go down the washing Toss, I mean, it's it's rocky and rough because all that stuff stayed. I really don't know if that's why. What do you think, Uh well, I think to add to that, I would say that obviously like the Delta and where the Mississippi flows into the Gulf, it's a huge alluvial plane. There has been eons worth of silt and sediment deposited. Sounds like he's supported. Likely you didn't use I don't even really made that when something swamp and all of a sudden, he's like that. You you just got the reason Rick is here? Is he now the new host? I've been fired that. I think we're on the same channel. I think we're on this. I think we are. You had the early version, I had to later version. Think, man, that was good. That was good. Um, switching topics slightly, just a smidgen. Daniel Rupe has been on a roll and he killed another deer the oh Man number four, Hey number four, and all giving Clay a hard time. Aside, I would not be able to hunt if it wasn't for Clay Newcombe took a swift turn. Yeah, I have been so you know, we've been away for a long time and it has been so fun that you've been your first fall back, first fall back in twelve years and I just got my fourth year with a bow. That's just having a wonderful time. Your son isn't a lot of pictures. Is he loving this? He really? I'm probably this spring gonna get him a bow and start taking him out. But he comes with it. He came with me this last time. He didn't hunt with you. No, I just don't have a set up for two of us to be way up in a tree um. But this last time, the whole last hour I was out, it was just raining thirty degrees. Raining turned to snow, and then I took this deer, and so the whole place was wet. And I went home and got my my second son, who loves to come with me and track him. And he tracked it with me for about an hour. He got out in front of me. I was like, his name is Zion. I call him big Z. I was like, big Z get out in front of me. You know, he just did a great job. We had a that's that's probably a really good way to introduce him. Yeah, letting him see the kind of the drama of the trail job. And you know, you know, when you get a deer, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm pretty sure I got a good shot. I saw it, but did and you know, are you gonna get this deer? We're gonna find it. And you go like fifteen minutes without seeing blood and then you're like, oh, I got it over here. You know it's he went. She went about a hundred seventy five yards, but a real circuitous passed path. You know, just all kinds of you hit it a little bit far back, a little bit far back, but I didn't make any difference. This is well, this is what he did, very far forward. This is this is what I think me give you some advice. You're looking for advice. Every time I pull back on a deer, I just hear cleig giggling. Got at all? That's he stays with me. He's gutted and now skinned and process three of them. He's thirteen. Perfect. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. So Rick makes his own bows, does pretty much everything, and I'm alright, yeah, I mean it's yeah. So he every single component of his hunting weapon for bow hunting deer. The only thing that I routinely used that um uh you know I don't is a crossbow I used. I do hunt with steel broadheads a lot. Okay, that's yeah. Yeah. To clarify, like I have hunted a lot with stone points, and I have taken a couple of shots at deer um and learned some some tough lessons, but I have yet to take one down with a stone point. But you're using a self bow, yes, which a self Do you know what a self bow is then? Nope? Okay, a self bow is a one piece bow. Uh, it's has no lamin nations. It's been carved from a single piece of wood, as opposed to traditional bowl like those hanging on the wall that have laminations. So you basically took up stave and down the tree, split the trunk into pieces, and then carved the bow from one of those pieces. It would be the most primitive type of archery equipment. So, yeah, that's pretty cool. That's really cool. You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with a stone point on the end of my arrow hunting. I told you about. So there was a year where I took some stone points that my friend David Bond here in northwest Arkansas made for me. It was a hybrid primitive deal. I was using a recurve bow, so which is a a modern traditional traditional and I used a carbon arrow and I took a grain field point and on a band saw cut a notch out of the field point, put the stunt the half of the stone point into this little wedge on. I should have used j B well, but I used I used sent you that I bought, you know, send you and epoxy and basically attached to stone point to a field point so that it had it had threads on it so I can thread it into a carbon arrow. And I was gonna try to kill a bear with it. And I hunted a long time and just never killed a bear that year. And uh, and then I was telling Rick this, I was later tree stand whitetail hunting, trying to kill a white tail with it, and I dropped it just for whatever reason, the arrows didn't fit on the string real good. And it was I dropped an arrow out of the tree. And when that arrow hit the ground with no real force behind it, that that stone point snapped. And it's that was humbling because most of the humans that have ever lived on planet Earth, let's just say a lot of them made a living off stone points. And I mean, you know, just to think it is not easy to kill stuff at the stone point, especially when your family depends on it and your wife has left eye dominant. Humble you very much, though she's like, did you get a deer? No? You better have some candy then else tonight. No, I've always I've kind of tiptoed around the primitive world. I've never gone as primitive as is some of the stuff that ricks do. Them had deep respect for the guys that really shot primitive archery. Um so yeah, my father, my my brother's father in law, David Albright, primitive archer, usually goes like this, it follows, it's Patrie. It's always like somebody's something. It's the guy that you know that's done this. But no, I was inspired to get into traditional archery when twenty plus years ago, when I was a compound archer. But I would go to my brother, my brother's father in law's house, a fantastic traditional archer. Yeah, and he just just it's a lifestyle, you know, and as it is for so many of these guys. And he made his own bows and and he I just was like, as a kid, I mean, you know, twenty something, I was like, no, that it's a cool way to bow hunt. But it was so stink and hard. I just didn't think it was approachable, and it would be about ten or twelve years after I met him that I finally kind of dove in. And that's what you kind of have to do, you guys, just have to dive in. There's just a lot of time involved in it, you know, And I get it. You know a lot of people just want to go deer hunting. They don't necessarily want to have all this extra stuff that they have to do. But if you enjoy like working with your hands, crafting things, experimenting with things, like it's a really rewarding way to go about it. Yeah. Yeah, Rick is pretty cood. A lot of my friends do, especially the ultimate act of hunting self limitations, you know, and that's really what we do with every aspect of modern hunting. Nine of people and there's some personage that don't, but we limit ourselves. I mean, I went duck hunting last week and it was the policy amongst the brethren I was with the only use twenty gauges. And it would be like, well, why are you just using a twenty gage? And they're like, you know, and there it was just a idea of self limitation, and so we constantly, constantly do that So transitioning into talking about the podcast, I invited Devin Pettigrew here, but he lives in Colorado, so he couldn't come, but we could the field trip Boulder, Colorado. I thought his his section was so interesting. I talked about it with a couple of the different guys, maybe maybe all of them, but about the transitions, the technology transitions, that was really interesting to me because that's something we see throughout history, is human technology increasing, and there's always some kind of drama at the transition. And we know that the fulsome points were in vogue in being used by this culture for a thousand years. I don't remember this on the podcast or not. I think maybe I took it out, But when I was talking to Devon, I was like, no, it wasn't him. If somebody else I was talking to, I said, does a thousand years sound like a long time to you? And they were like, yeah, it seems like eternity. But to me that sounded like a really short amount of time when you think when you're thinking about human history and all the other thousand year blocks that are in there, and just for this short period of time, there was this real radical technology that was used it phased in and it phased out, and just there would have been people having conversations about it. They would have had extremely practical conversations about that technology, just like we do with our broadhead stuff. I mean, essentially we could have a conversation today about using cut on impact heads or using expandable broadheads. All of us would be like, oh, man, you got to do this, or you got to do that, or I can't believe you did that. There there had to have been a time when they were like, man, I can't believe you're still fluting those things, like this is really cool time. Yeah, this is like three years of this. I'm out. So I I was probably put too much thought energy into form or function like or or like was it functional? And I have decided today this morning I listened to the podcast again. I decided it wasn't functional. It wasn't Yeah, I mean, I just think about all the guys that have you know, if if if you don't have an outlet for art, like we don't have any material art from that time period and the thing we do from that time period of human history but not not not much. If you don't have that and you're putting all your energy into this thing. At some point somebody should have said, this is my signature. You know what I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna flute this thing because I would have done it. You know. I can't tell you how many decks I've built where I just do a certain things to make it look cool or have a signature about it. I think that probably there was the guy that fluted and then he taught I mean, if if we're talking about small family groups, there had to be a guy that was the first one to flute these things, and he taught everybody else how to do this, and then it just kind of carried on until people, you know, either had their own signature or they found something more functional. So I've decided, hey, I want to give I want to give some backing to what Josh just said. When Josh started talking, I didn't know he's going to say that. But Josh is extremely crafty with his hands. Josh is a very skilled carpenter. He ties flies. He builds Dan's bug church yesterday, so my church built. Oh you get black Mary, not good enough for your church. And then and Josh also makes hats, so can wear your hands. Josh makes purses, leather per your wife have a mustache. Um, But I'm saying that's coming from a place of a guy that works with his hands. You know. The one the one thing that I thought about that when I can't remember the gentleman that was um saying at the Fulsome site, the Fulsome expert Meltzer, he was saying, you could you could kind of tell they were probably three different Yeah, he could identify different individuals based their style, and he was kind of saying, I wouldn't be surprised if these these these these folks kind of had their own signature. So one of the things that made me think was in the in the cultural anthropology class that I teach, there is a hunter gatherer group that was still in existence up until like the nineteen fifties that was studied extensively, and so there we would have been really similar to falsome people's but they had an intense desire to all be the same, to not stand out. So it's real egalitarian. So you could observe their actual behaviors because you're not looking ats. So the bands of you know, thirty people that would go around these water holes and they would hunt and gather. And I can't remember the mechanism that they used to hunt, but well, yeah, I do. They shot arrows, and so they had these entire rituals as they would make arrows and then they would exchange them because they needed to have everything level because personal property would cause the hunter gather. Basically, yeah, and so there were probably were three different folks that you know that chip those rocks out. But then if they were really interdependent people that were living day to day subsistence dwelling, I don't know if. I don't know if like other hunter gatherer cultures that we've been able to observe in real life, would espouse this really rugged individualism of I'm gonna leave my mark on this. So I'm deeply intrigued by what you're saying. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Function he's disagreeing with me, Well, because that's what Dan does. I think. I mean, they wouldn't do if it didn't work. But it probably is also beautiful and something you take. But the idea of kind of setting yourself apart would not have been something. I don't know if that would have existed. Excellent and excellent point that gives a whole layer to the culture that I've never even thought of that these people would have had, and they would have It's not like these were These were humans that had the same cognitive capabilities est at the same emotions that they were just like us. One of their babies could have been the President of the United States and they would have had deeply set culture just like us. It's just it's just hidden from us. So the idea that that they would have just had these values of no one can stay out. But I was going to say that could be to his point, because it would be non utilitarian if they just didn't want to change stuff, Like if a generation woke up one day and they were the hunters and they were like, we're doing this like dad did. Of the reason is that it's because that's the way we were taught. There wasn't this idea of self discovery or we're trying to be different. The way they survived was they were the same. That is non I mean that is part non utilitarian, and that's where it's a whole different you know, two I mean makeup a percentage, but probably two thirds of the world that is interdependent agrarian. You know, they have a huge value for honor and tradition. In the West, where we're ruggedly individualistic, we kind of have this luxury of what kind of clothes do I wear? And does this shirt me? And does this express me? Well, you know, but most of the world doesn't live at our level of wealth. They value tradition because traditions what keeps you alive. Why are we so ridiculous? I am fully convinced that we have as Western thinkers. You can't help We are, our our world views dominated by things that are very hard to control or to see and understand about ourselves. Us sitting here trying to understand these people is like us trying to read Brail and having no idea what any of it means. And well, we will read if we're not careful, we'll read ourselves back there. Yes, like you know, would I can't help. But compared to the mac PC argument that because I'm a macron and PC you know like it. I like MAX because I like to say, because of functionality, because it's easier to use, but also I think they're cool. Do you see what I'm saying? And so, like I was listening to y'all argue and I thought and I wondered if maybe they had, like probably not shirts that said I'm a mac I'm a falsome. But somebody said fluters would have been a good three on three basketball. But I wondered about when it when it stopped? When, when when the utility wore out on it? Because they got to come to a point if you're only the ones you make are failure, right, Yeah, Well that guy Bob the air head maker, he's only gonna be able to tape so many rocks with him. And when they take that process out of there, when it doesn't have to be fluted like that, when he doesn't have to look just because Grandpa did it, you know, somebody's got to say at some point, Frank, you're wasting a lot of rocks. Frustrated Frank Candy before and his grandpa. I believe that there are actual examples of of that type of thing, Like do you know the Sloan site here in Arkansas. You're familiar with that. You should really check that one out. So it is onna a very significant depository of this. Dalton the Dalton Point is what's prevalent at the Sloan site, and it's near Crowley's Ridge, uh, here in Arkansas, and there's different types of rocks there. But as I understand it from things that I've read about that as the stone sources begin to get further away and they would dry up, then they started to like not produce the points the same way anymore because the resource wasn't as good as it once was. Um And of course that's still very much a theory, but but I think there there's some evidence to support that theory that when they could get high quality stone and it was available, they were gonna produce these really fascinating articulate points. But when that went away, they didn't spend as much time or they like began to work on a different type of point because the resource wasn't as rich it was as as it decreases available. So there's a lot of factors at work here. It's probably not just one thing. My conclusion is that it's impossible for us to know which we we know that it's it's clear that there was utility, utility to the fluting in the way that it fit into the half and all the things we talked about on the podcast that made it functional. But also, like what Dr Meltzer said is he said Essentially, he was like, maybe it could have been both. Sure, you know, they he said they found bits of red ochre in places where they napped, which typically, he said, it could have been part of the mastic, the adhesive that they used to plug it in, you know, to plug it into the half. But but he said, usually red ochre was part of spiritual Yeah, like they were they were putting ochre on this on these points, whatever they did. So I think I think I think missing Newcomb nailed it on the head, despite he's probably trying to make up for that. What did you say about the computers? It's the kind of cool that's it functional but cool. I mean, I don't think it's a stretch to think that one lead to the other either, right, like, and it could also be the chicken egg thing, like as far as like it was it functional first, and then because it was functional, it became sacred and we you know, or for whatever reason it was the other way, it was decided this was sacred, but as we used it, it was also very functional, which reinforced that. But to your point, we'll never know. But it's it's fun to talk about. So can somebody. So I really and it's me, it's not anyone else. I still do not understand what an addle addle is. He was describing it, and I'm so sorry. It's basically, it's a stefically a stick. It's okay, So it's a stick, and they vary in length, but on average we'll say they're about two ft long. On the back there's a spur, so it's a stick and it has a little spur on the back. Okay. The spur is where the back of the spear fits into okay, a handle, and so it's a platform on which the spear sets and as you throw it, it extends that lever. I mean, it's so simple, I mean is and they get more complex. That's what he's talking about, the wrist motion. Okay, And I'm so sorry to understand. You know, I'm glad you said that, because we spend a ton of time verbally trying to describe what a fulsome point looked like. I was torn with overlapping content because the thing you don't want to do, and literature and different things is overlapped too much, so you say the same thing over and over because people get bored. I I asked Brunella Melter Devin Pettigrew, and then Rick showed us what one looked like, trying to describe a fulesome point, and because I just felt like that was important. And then I said, go google it and if you had an image of it, it was a lot. It would make sense. Man, I've been thinking about this for five months and I now just now feel like when I see a fulesome point, I get it. And it came from watching Rick make one, actually watching him make one. And if I get it, I mean I see the value in it, I see the skill in it, I see the art in it. I understand the functionality of it. And it took that long. I say, I'll have to say I did not describe what an adlout was because I thought everybody knew. Do you have a video of him making that put on Instagram? Yeah? Do you know what social media is? Did you ever heard of it's called? Didn't show the actual flute breaking off though, that's what I want to say that it was. I was. I was holding the audio equipment. This what I was doing was equivalent. It was probably harder than making a fluted point. Was you I want to see the stone? I was holding the audio thing and then I was filming like this. I was filming Rick. So in the fifth grade, did you really in the tomato field? My brother and older brother Tim. No, I'll tell you why I can't. My older brother Tim, he's bigging to find an area, heads and stuff like. He knows a lot about him. Anyway, he's eight years older than me. When I was in the fifth grade, he was telling me about, you know, the Indians that lived here. I hear where we raised tomatoes, where we had just found some points. You know, they used adeladdles and bows and this and that, and so he explained to me what it was. So I got two tomato sticks and I put a fence stapling into one and I sharpened another one. And when he came back a couple of days later to visit or whatever he just lived just down the road, I threw it at him. I missed him, but he he got the part that I threw, then chased me down and beat the right So they work on both ends. So but it did work. I mean I had that fence staple on the end of that. It worked good. Oh yeah, you can throw it, you know. There was a History Channels show Top Shot was like a marksmanship competition where they you know, everything from modern supermodern firearms and muskets and all that stuff. But they did a big part of the competition with a laddles and they were they were did you know it? Missouri? Missouri has a Missouri specifically season. Every I think it is a crime against humanity and our ancestors that every state in this country doesn't have an ad aloud season. I mean, how many deer are we're going to kill? That Adds right in Arkansas name a bunch of deer and no, no, no, damn you. I mean that is the thought process, which I believe is an incorrect thought process. I mean, tobacco, we are here, adaddle's work, follow that back alladdle is the most primitive human tool in the earth, And I legally can't go out in my backyard and try to kill a deer with it, but I can use the thirty yacht six. Well here's the thing else. Yeah, if we were standing in the court of law and they let me in, my lawyer, let me talk, we would win this. This is the classic you're going to defend yourself. I do not need a quarter pointed lawyer. I will speak for this is what everybody does. You're gonna get the Adeladdle season taken away. I think they should. I think here's another here's the add onto that add Addle's work. Obviously because we're here. Folks also used to build fires without a firestarter, and out of all the people that you know, how many people you think, it woke right out there and they woulds and set them on fire without some spicer people very few. Sorry, you got demoted to that level. That's the deal. I think they're doing it. It's been that's their new motto. Missouri, we're doing it. That's being shot out. I was just thinking about South I'm sorry, I was South Dakota came up and we love South Dakota and South Dakotas before they had a slogan that said meth. Oh yeah, we're on it. Yeah yeah. It was anti drug. This is for real. It was marketing campaign said meth we're honest. They didn't run, they didn't have to be focused groups. I think they were. I mean, I think they're like great, something else to take everyone to the the tins shot because it was the year before and they were it was that time. Take that out. Just lost all the South Dakota listeners. We're not nervous, we're just real quick. Oh my goodness, says the Drug Task Force guy. I think the idea that history defines us, whether that was your main history defines us, whether or not we know it. But just like the fact that we're all standing right here because Adeladdle's work and I don't even five minutes ago to't even know when one was, history really does define us, whether or not we know. That's a pretty big point. You know what. The conclusion of the series, That's what I love about what we're doing is that this is not I didn't plant Devon to say what he said, and I started out with a genuine question like why does any of this matter? Why is it important? And you know, we could talk about that for an hour. Why it's important? I mean, is this just entertainment to understand this stuff? Is it just entertaining or is there something more? And you know, Devon right at the end just said he said anthropology is powerful stuff. He said, these all this stuff is defining us, whether we want it to or not. So whether with or without our knowledge of what happened at Folsome and what these people did, and those things are defining us. And I keep going back to this idea that we're in a time period when human nature and humans we're we're it's like we're looking for a new definition of what it means to be human. And and you can take that a thousand different ways. You have a thousand different examples. There's no salvation inside of being a hunter. I don't want it to sound like that. There is something that is very defining and very simple and very architectural, meaning that it is a pillar of our humanity that we can't get away from no matter what we do. You can choose to get away from it for some period of time usually, but the fact that we're meat eaters and that we lived by an intimate and and skilled connection to the land, that is a primary definer of our humanity that has too and in the future continue to define what it means to be human. And so by looking back at this stuff and saying these people were just like us, all right, just it changes it. It I meant what I said, and that it puts perspective on my problems. It puts perspective on the challenges that I have inside of my life. Really does, and and it just it just kind of grounds you moving away from satisfaction and identity inside that some of this temporal, ephemeral stuff. What do you guys think? I agree absolutely. I have simplified my life over the last three years too. I don't I don't watch the news. You know, what's the old saying. If you watch the news, you're misinformed. If you don't watch the news, you're uninformed. You know. I get a majority of the things that are going on from people telling me, hey, I saw this, this is what's going on here and there. I have simplified my life around what's the old thing, I say to you, If it ain't gun fire, it ain't you know, everything's probably gonna be all right. And I that's where I tend to lead my family in that direction of simplifying and getting away from all the distractions and everything that are going on, and we just pretty well concentrate on taking care of each other and our friends and our neighbors, doing the right thing, and you go. But these folks that were making these that's what they were worried about. They were worried about everything that they could wake up in the morning and see. And that was their world, and that was of course they may have something to do with whether or not here now. But I may be wrong thinking, but it's it's right thinking for me. Why does this matter to me? When we talk about bear Grease? What I always how I always describe it to people is bear Grease is not just a podcast with Clay Does, but it's a metaphor for how we live our lives. And that is we hold on to ancient principles and we live our life by ancient principles but use progressive tools, you know. So there's there's things that really shape who we are, how we live as a family. Um. I mean everyone who listens podcasts should know by now that biblical principles are a major part of that for us, and that shapes who we are. But it doesn't mean that we like hearken back to some good old days that of like, you know, I don't wear prairie dresses, uh from the eighteen hundreds, although it's really on trend right now. But you know, we I use computers. We we are you know, we are very progressive people in one way and we're always and I think that that's what you see inside of some of these tools. It's like you progress, and you see I would define tools differently than you know, than an arrowhead. Now those aren't really tools that I use, but we we use progressive tools to accomplish and to live lives that are governed by ancient principles. And I think that anytime you look back at history and you look back at those things, you learn more data. Point Dan, what do you think? Why does this matter for me? What really helped me through this whole series on the Falesome is going you go back ten thousand years two people, and they were people. They had culture, they had sophisticated ways of engaging with one another, they had really complex relationships and lives. And I think that narrative corrects a lot of thinking that I mean before I probably did think a lot about ten thousand years ago and people, but just the idea that when you go back, being human is a very very unique thing. And then I think looking at today and realizing how and you've said it before, Clay, how absurd rdly different our lives are today the vast majority of all people that have lived it really does put our lives in perspective. And I think, because our lives are so different now, if ten thousand years ago, there was you know, I'm making this up, two ways to define yourself. One was a Fulsome point and one was a Clovis point. Today there's ten million ways to define yourself, and the vast majority of them feel, you know, just overly empty, and we just go from one to the other. And I think that to me, it's grounding. Yeah, Rick, why is this matter for me? Like, especially as someone who has kind of a foot in both doors. Like, on one hand, I'm a like earth skills practitioner, I would, but on the other hand, I sell the most modern technical outdoor equipment made for a living right. Uh Rick is part owner in a really cool outdoor store, which you heard on the podcast. I spend money that this post there about years. Maybe we could give your money now. I think though, that there's a lot of value for me in that, because the rate at which our society is changing is like exponential right now, right Like, things just change faster and faster, and I don't know that there's a way to stop that, and I don't know that that the speed at which things are changing, well, I'll just say that I don't think it's good for us, but I think that as yeah, as a species, I don't think that our brains were necessarily made to handle all of the things that are going on at once right now the way they are. And so for me, looking back, I would use a lot of the words you folks have already used, you know, grounding, connective, and it uh. It feels really good to slow things now and look back at how people would have lived and what they needed to live. And it reminds me that we don't need most of the things that we have around us right now, because they're just things. What matters are the people that are around us, the relationships we have with those people, in the relationship we have with this earth. You know. I I go back to this idea that these falsome points thousand years and we could have picked any style of point it could have been. There's other styles, but just what we talked about was falsome at fulsome point being transferred generationally. We see a stone point because its outlasted the erosive nature of time. But what other values and principles were passed down with that stuff because there were fathers teaching sons how to knap stone. I know from being with Rick it's not a fast process. You're in close proximity, you're talking. I mean, I like to think about it as a as a kind of a metaphor for just generational continuance and something stayed so stable for so long. I think families want that with their kids, and not that our kids would be just like us. I don't care if my kids are just like me. There are principles and values that I hope my life would impact generations from now of newcoms, that they would be able to go. I'm a product of that. I'm a product. I'm not I'm not isolated. I didn't come up with this version of who I am. You know I can. It's kind of a metaphor to me for generational continuance. To and to look back at stuff like that gives you vision, just thoughts of yeah, life is more than just making more money next year than we had this year, getting a newer car, putting a good Instagram post up, being successful in what you're doing. I mean, like life is bigger than that. Looking back does give us a sense of we don't need as much stuff as we think we need, and the ridiculousness of this Western world we live in. It's incredible value on material stuff that will not outlast the roast of nature of time. Right, But Josh, what is it important? I'm not a philosopher like dan Is. I think the thing that I draw out of it is looking back at ancient people's like this makes me identify the things that were produced in their lives that caused our species to continue on. And really that that comes down to relational activity, you know what I mean, husbands and wives and children and investing and providing and doing those kind of things, and the and the gratitude that we must have for those things, and not not a sense of burden, but really a sense of gratitude that we have the opportunity to build relationships with one another, that we have the ability to invest values inside of our children. Because it's easy to get overwhelmed with the crisis and the all the things that are going on inside of the world that one we stop when you know, the it feels like the world is moving faster and faster and faster, and in a sense it is. But when we slow down inside of our families, and we slow down inside of our minds, and we stop reeling, and we start thinking through things, and we start thinking through consequences of our actions that I think that that produces a lot of value in our lives and a lot of peace and hope, because I think those are the things that are lacking inside of our society right now. Is peace and hope, it's all just fear and uh So it makes me stop and think, what what What can I observe from those people's lives? They worked hard, they were creative, they were strategic. And applying those things inside of my own life with you know, Christie and I as we talk about our marriage and raising our kids, what do we need to do to produce the fruit in the future. I think we can glean a lot of those things when we look back historically. And uh, I think it's I think it it's very thought provoking, you know, looking looking at the folesome people, is looking at how they made their points, and it provokes a lot of thoughts that can produce a lot of fruit. So I think it's good. Josh, I bet you buy your wife candy whatever she wants. I'm sorry, I had a great time. I genuinely did. We had so much fun. We had so much fun. I did about about giving me a hard time about my shot. It was just when you looking over your shoulder and there's this big red squirrel up in the tree. You gotta keep doing it, gonna stop saying pointed like way over here, and the squirrel was like over here. Okay, listen. All fantastic stuff. Fantastic stuff. I could talk about fulsome points for you know, I've I've feared that four episodes on Foalsome would get old. It didn't to me. I really enjoyed that last episode. It was one of my favorites. Really, why was your favorite? You know, I love I think I love the craftsmanship, listening to things made and talking about you know, how they would have halted it, and you know, in my mind, I'm I'm visualizing all these things. I thought it was a great It provoked a lot of visual activity inside of my mind and I people. I heard a lot of people say that they felt like it was their favorite one in the series. But what was cool about it too? It's such a diverse series because we started off with George mcjunkin and hardly even talked about uh, hardly even talked about Folsome Really it was it was about George mcjunkin. You know, yeah, super fascinating stuff. And the next already told, already foreshadowed what the next episode is going to be about. Yeah, it's and it's not just about duck hunting, like, don't think that, but it is a very specific issue that has broader applications to wildlife management in this country and the decisions that we make and how we build hunting culture. How's that for foreshadowing? C Json, you're trying to bring in a season for ducks? Why wouldn't we? Why not? I can see that. You see that spear right there, Rick, Do you see that I made that spear with the full intent when I was like twenty one, the full intent of using it to hunt a deer in Arkansas? And I called, uh, called the authorities that be and they were like, uh, you can't hunt it. I thought that I thought it would just down automatically downgrade, like you can use a I was like, hey, it's both season, I can use a spear, right And the dude laughed me out of the park. He was it as unnecessary metaphorically he metaphorically laugh. Man, he didn't laugh. It wasn't good. His name was no. No. He was very professional with me. But he was just like, oh wait, I mean he treated me like I was a college kid, which I guess he had the right to do. At Latree. Hey, we just keep going on and on. I wanted to say this about Missouri. You know, Missouri has a new bear season. Shout out, Missouri is doing it. They just instituted a new bear season. Man, if you do anything in your life support when new seasons arrived for species, they've taken a little bit of flak in in that people. There's there's different things where people are like, you know, anti the new bear season in Missouri, which is ridiculous because the best thing, Daniel Roupe, that could ever happen to you, if you were a big game animal is that there would be a season for you in that state. Because where animals have culture is such a complex story. Where animals have cultural value, their habitat is protected and they are protected. Where an animal has no cultural value, put it out the door, we don't care. And we've got a thousand examples across this plant where that has happened. You go all over the globe and they don't have as many big game animals as as many as we do here in North America because they killed them all because they didn't culturally value them through sport hunting. Roll it up and smoke it in your in your yeah, smoker pipe. I was looking for the Native American word for rolling up and smoking in your piece pipe. Man. More tigers in Texas and there are in India. Wild you love it? Sounds all right? Well, great to have everybody, Rick, great to have you. Thanks, thanks for me. I enjoyed it. Yeah, man, Hey check out Rick pack Rat Bushcraft, kick in the beard, in the beard Brent Reeves within a we all know what that stands for. Daniel Roupe, Oh d R Daniel Roupe Dr Daniel Roupe on Instagram and then farm Newcomb Farms. Yeah, very visually appealing. Yeah Instagram page. You want to see some produce and some camera slightly leaning to the left. So much better. I just alright, guys, have a great, happy New Year. Happy New Year,