00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This episode number two d and seventeen and te In the show, I'm joined by Charles Post, Tyler Sharp, and Brad Nethery to discuss their new publication, Modern Huntsman, and the question of how we represent and communicate our hunting lifestyle. All Right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. And in the show, we've got an interesting and particularly unique episode. I think it's it's a real thinker. I'd say we're joined in this one, as I mentioned a second ago, by three guys who are involved in the publishing of a new premium print magazine called Modern Huntsmen. And this publication is taking a really unique angle on hunting, with a focus on framing most of their content in a way that it's more catered towards non hunters or brand new hunters, or maybe folks that have been intrigued by hunting by way of the local food movement, you know, that type of thing. And what's interesting is, at least from this team's perspective, Much of the traditional hunting media available in the past hasn't necessarily spoken very well to these aforementioned groups. And let's be honest. I think that if you took your non hunting urban friend from work and stuck them in front of the TV to watch some big buck TV show or gave them a copy of a popular deer hunting magazine, do you think that they'd resonate with that material? You know, do you really think they've been trigued to get involved after seeing dozens of pictures of big dead deer and articles about kinetic energy and food plots, or what about after watching a guy fist pumping and hooting and hollering in a tree after shooting a deer. I think that while many of us within the hunting community might enjoy that kind of stuff, I think it is easy to see how this might not appeal as much to those on the outside looking in. But that's left this big gap between much of the content being produced and then the needs of a growing audience of people that are interested in hunting. Maybe, but they're not knowing what to do with that intrigue. So that's where these guys Brad Tyler and Charles come in and their new project, Modern Huntsmen. So today in the show, we chat with these guys about their inspiration for this new project and then the different issues that they're trying to address with this work, stuff like how hunters communicate about hunting, and the importance of improving the non hunting world's perception of hunters, and a role as hunters and conservationists moving forward into the future, and and just a whole lot more than that. And within this group, it's it's interesting because we have a relatively sly converted non hunter to hunter. We have a professional photographer and hunter and videographer. We have a former vegetarian and ecologist and filmmaker. So needless to say, it's a conversation packed with with just really unique ideas and opinions and perspectives which are sometimes right in line with the things we typically talk about in the hunting world and sometimes quite different. So, without further ado, let's take a quick break to thank our partners at White Tailed Properties and then we'll get right to the episode. So, as we've mentioned on many past episodes, White Tail Properties and their land specialists, in addition to being a go to option for those interested in buying or selling recreational properties. They're also a great resource when it comes to learning more about hunting or managing land for wildlife, and their YouTube series called land Beat is a perfect example of this, and just this week they launched a new video about the value of working with a forester when developing a landman has been planned and we've discussed this on past episodes. You know the fact that how properly managing timber on a piece of ground can really benefit the wildlife on your property. But but knowing how to do this in the right way and how you can possibly financially benefit from two you know, that's important to know before getting started, and that's what this video shares. It talks about exactly how a forrester can help you do that. So, if you're in a situation like this where land and timber management is on your horizon, but you're not exactly sure where to start or what to do next, I definitely recommend heading over to the White Tailed Property's YouTube channel and checking out this recent video, which is titled quite poetically, I might add make money on your timber consulting a forrester. What you need to know? I don't know if it's a haiku or something, but it is a helpful short video. So check it out. And now on to the show. All right with me? Now we've got a full house. I've got Brad Tyler and Charles all with me. And rather than beating around the bush bread, I wanted to start with you, being the founder of modern huntsman, can you just set this stage for us? What is this? Why did you create this? How did the idea come abow? Absolutely so, the whole concept started. Um I My background is as a non hunter. Um and and not necessarily somebody who had never hunt hunted, but somebody who really didn't associate with hunters in general. There was this disconnect with how I felt about hunting and the way that I engaged in the land. Um, I was a meat eater and um My, you know, I grew up in Texas, and so hunting really isn't a negative topic here. It's just kind of you know, if you do it, great, if you don't great. Um And so, given the luxury of choice between the grocery store field, I kind of felt like I was a more responsible human because I I bought my meat rather than killing more animals and that was a pretty accepted way of thinking. UM. But it was about five years ago that I was really uh introduced with a with a topic from a hunter who kind of pope and questioned, you know, if you eat meat and you're somebody who appreciates the outdoors or somebody who is you know, for wildlife conservation, what is it about you that pushes you away from hunting? And it was a it was a question that I had to wrestle with um and had to kind of force myself to give some thought too. And what I came up with was it wasn't that I was necessarily opposed to hunting, because you know, I've grown up about once a year, Dad and I would go out in the field and go deave hunting, and um, just to be together as father and son. It was not at all to be a serious hunter by any means, would just be together. UM. And so when I was proposed you, when I was given the question, I had to really think through, you know, why I was against it. So it wasn't that I was against hunting, but there was more so this this image that I had when somebody were to say, you know that they are a hunter. I almost put this image in my head and I didn't want to be that. Um. I didn't really know why. I just didn't want to be that UM. So when I when I had to really wrestle with the question, what I came up with was there's a reception of hunting and hunters in America that really turns off the rest of the non hunters, you know, the rest of America that quantifiably there's six of people in America who are agnostic to hunting. You know, they they eat meat, they you know, they have an appreciation for wildlife. They've just never really been presented with hunting and they never really haven't had a good opportunity to understand what hunting is all about. So as a as an entrepreneur and a cereal uh you know, creator, I couldn't let this pass. And so I thought, Man, we've got to create. I've got to create something that starts to open up hunting to non hunters and gives them a reason to see this. The way that I've seen this been shown kind of a new direction and a new vision in this um And it really starts with the creatives and brands and organizations inside the industry that are telling the story in a way that's both approachable and and aspirational to everybody who's really only seen, you know, kind of the one sided which is not objectively wrong, but the camo uh mindset. And so there was a lot of creatives in the space who were coming at it from a much more um, not romantic perspective, but honest perspective, this story in a much larger format that I was able to digest and feel a connection to. And so I started an Instagram channel called Modern huntsman um and started to curate content from photographers and filmmakers and brands and organizations who I fell or were distributing this this media in a way that felt good, felt the way that I believe hunters feel um whenever they whenever they hunt. And so in doing that, UM, we started to build this channel, me and my my partner early on and UH when we when we got to a point of uh, about five weeks after we started the channel, we had about five thousand followers, and it was like, Okay, this is this is real, and this is a need in the industry. And the majority of the people that were following us were actually non hunters. So in light of that, um, I knew that this needs to expand out further. Um So, fate happened and I met Tyler, whom had this vision that I had, but he has a totally different background as regard to, you know, being a hunter and a filmmaker photographer. Um So I met him and we shared this similar vision and a similar approach to create a platform that we could um present to both the hunting and the non hunting communities that would conversation. UM I'll let Tyler take it from here. Yeah, So without taking too much time on my background, I mean, I'm a photographer, writer, and director and I've been working in the outdoor industry for the last twelve years and a lot of the culmination of my frustration with my experience in the hunting industry and with from without the hunting industry has kind of led to this. And the first time Brand and I met about three years ago, he kind of told me about what he was wanting to do, but I wasn't sure which direction to take it. And I said, Hey, I know this is gonna sound weird because we just met, but what you're describing is probably going to be my life's work and you need to hire me as your creative director right now. And he was like, okay, well, let's finish this coffee and we can talk about it. UM. And so, you know, I just I you know, I traveled UM all over the world filming for several but for hunting shows UM, and just kind of had a little more of a traditional view of the hunting industry. And part of my frustration with that was that even though there are a lot of people who are dedicated conservationists, ethical hunters, UM, in most cases they are talking to a room full of members of the same club and they say, hey, we all believe this right, and everybody says yeah. But then when that conversation leaves the room and it and it is applied to a you know, non hunting public, it it ceases to become productive and it often becomes a conflict. And so that was half of my frustration. And the other half of my frustration was when I would come back from places in Africa or Russia or Pakistan or wherever on hunts and my friends and family who don't have an insight into hunting's role in conservation, they would get often emotional or upset at me for things that they've read online that aren't true about you know, animals being threatened it aren't or just the way hunting actually works, sort of having this perception of what a trophy hunter is. And so those two things combined, UH, for the last ten or twelve years, I've really wanted to find a way to improve both of those situations. Uh, find a way to help hunters communicate to a non hunting public in a way that's less aggressive and less exclusive, and then vice versa, a, non find ways to educate the public about you know, hunting's rolling conservation, that that there are people who conduct themselves in a much more ethical and honorable way than than what you might see and sensationalized news headlines or Facebook posts and all that kind of stuff. And so we sort of came to the conclusion that we need to produce a magazine, and that led to Volume one of Modern huntsmen Um. And so, you know, it's a it's a two or four page book with no ads, and you know, Brad and I kind of hand picked all the people we wanted to have involved, and from the very beginning it became clear that our number one recruit would be Mr Charles Post, who is who I believe to be a unicorn in the hunting world. Um. And so him and I are now working together to move into volume two of Modern Huntsmen to try to achieve these goals. But I'll use that. Let Charles give you a little bit of his background. Oh, two kinds, Tyler. Um, Yeah, so I guess to fill the shoes of the unicorn that I've been offered. Um My, yeah, my background is a bit interesting, and that I did grow up hunting. You know, my my father was a hunter. He was also kind of a lifelong conservationist, was on the board of California Trout. My grandfather was a Harvard trained forrester who also hunted wolves in Minnesota back when there's a bounty on them. So I grew up staying at their place in Virginia and the wolf skins were the blankets we had in the in the rooms we stayed. And so it's kind of this weird thing where I grew up in California and Marine County, which is an incredibly liberal part of the state. UM ended up pursuing undergraduate and graduate degree at UC Berkeley's studying ecology there. Uh, you know, Berkeley's for Better if it Works, probably one of the most liberal institutions on earth. Um. But it gave me this really interesting dual perspective of of hunting, of stewardship, conservation, and also you know, a really close connection to you know, a largely non hunting world. You know, there there definitely are hunters in central and northern California, but I think the overwhelming population of the area is frankly pretty disconnected from the hunting community in the hunting world, so kind of straddled this line of you know, of one foot in each in each camp. Um. You know, I understand the far right and I understand the far left, and I've spent a lot of time, um, you know, kind of rubbing shoulders with friends and family and peers who identified both places. But you know, when Tyler and Brad you know, kind of sprouted this modern huntsman idea, it was something in that that felt right. It was something that you know, I think intentive come at a better time because for me, you know what my life's work and my passion you know, really kind of orbits this idea of stewardship and this reality that now more than ever, we need to get people outside and need to build bridges as opposed to illuminating these these points of conflict or these perceived points of conflict. And you know, while I really appreciate, you know, Brad's comment about or I was comment about people talking about Hunteen being these kind of island situations where everybody echoes, you know, kind of the same perspective, and then you you leave and enter the public realm, and people don't really understand the lexicon or don't understand the pursuit or the passion. You know. I think one of the things that's interesting here is that not only do we need to change that narrative, but also real is that that if we can focus on hunting as a group of people that does have the best and could be better end of the spectrum, we should be focusing on those best case examples of stewardship of people who are hunting for the right reasons. Because just like there are vegans who take it too far, there are vegans who do a mindful job. And I think hunting is not perfect, and I think one of the things that excites me about modern huntsmen this opportunity is that we can profile and celebrate up with those best stories that that show that hunting is not killing, it's hunting and hunting. You know, you could be a deer hunter and never harvest the deer, and by virtue of being a hunter, you care about nature and and now more than ever, we need people to care about these natural spaces. Um. So it's yeah, I think it's a very timely effort, and it's it's an exciting one. I think Issue one really set the stage um for us to really dive into issue too, and it can be more proud to be a part of what lies ahead. Yeah, it's it's exciting I think for me from the outside looking into because a lot of your guys as concerns and some of the different things that led you to to create this have been things that have been on my mind a lot too, and it's something I think about a lot and talk about a lot. That being, you know, how do we as a hunting community better represent ourselves, How do we better engage the non hunting public. You know, welcome those who are interested in joining us, and for those who aren't interested but are kind of on the fence at least present a positive representation of what we're doing and don't give people really easy, stupid reasons to think those stereotypes are true. Um. But to your point earlier, Tyler, that being that lots of times us in the hunting community, especially those of us who who grew up doing this, who don't know anything else. Um. Again, we're in this echo chamber. We just talked to each other, and we don't ever or don't often think about what things look like from the outside. But we're still posting things on Facebook or Instagram, am or on TV shows that sometimes the rest of the world sees many times us not realizing what they're seeing and them not realizing what we're seeing because there's not that shared context. Um. So my question for you, maybe first bread given you know how you lead this off the fact that you were a non hunter, but you were turned off by this perception of what a hunter was or what the stereotype of a hunter was. I'm curious, from from your guys perspective, what are those things that turned you off? What are the things you saw or the things you heard, or what actually flesh out what that negative connotation was that turned you off to hunting, Because I think it's it's helpful for those in the hunting community who maybe don't think about this to hear from someone like you to understand you, Oh wow, maybe I was saying things in this way. I never thought that someone would be, you know, seeing that in a different way than I did. Um. So, so that's my long and rambling way of saying, can you share some examples? Absolutely? And I want to answer this question softly and be very cautious about how I approach this because it's not an objective UM person or a stance. It's it's more of UM how it's perceived. Because what I've come to learn, you know, from my background and non hunting and not having a lot of interaction with hunters, is that the way that I perceived this person. I'll kind of get into that just second. This this person UM when I talked to them different right, the way that they interact with me, and they talk about wildlife and they talk about the experience that they had hunting or or what it is for them, and oftentimes it is something they grew up with, right that they went out with their dad and their granddad, or maybe their mom and their grandmother, and they this is a way of life. It's not, it's just the way that I thought about literally is the way that they thought about hunting. And I had to kind of, you know, digest that and and realize that this is, this is a way of life for so many people on me, my friends and family. It's not just people on the outside. But the stereotype that I had in my mind was more so something that I've seen on social media, and I think everybody can kind of relate to it. And it's just that kind of blood aggressive photo of you know, the misinterpretation, the misunderstanding of what a trophy hunt might look like. And it's it's the aggressive, um, you know, way of the um you know, holding up the bloody head of a white tail and and it's it's got his tongue hanging out, and it's just a poor representation and it's only one snapshot of what the full experience was. And that's something that you know, with my background in in kind of the creative industry and um and really understanding like how do we tell stories that are going to connect and convey a much more honest and beautiful depiction of whatever it is that we're talking about. People get one moment to try and identify and understand with a with a culture, and if it's a culture that they're unfamiliar with, and especially one like this where it's got so much political intensity and it's got so so many people that are against it. We get one chance, often to show a representation of what we believe. And if that one representation is the twisted neck of a bloody white tail, it's not the story. And I know that this is something that is not going to be solved overnight. Right We're not going to be able to release one issue of a of a publication that is going to inspire and invigorate a new type of sharing either stories or content on social media. But what I hope to do, what we have all collectively worked so hard to create, is is a way to kind of spearhead and and lead a generation of people into um conveying and representing hunting in a way that is both honorable and respectful towards the wild life and the land, and also inspiring and aspirational towards those who may have never even given hunting a second thought. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, well go ahead. Did you have a question, No, I was going to toss it to you, Charles or Tyler, so I'd love to hear we have to dad, Yeah, this is Tyler. I'm gonna jump in here. So yeah, I think that, um, you know, my answer is kind of too full to to piggyback on what Brad said. I think that for me, you know, being deeply embedded in the traditional hunting industry, you know, there were times where I'd be out on hunts and you don't always agree with people, right, you make your uh. You know, there's in the same way that we could all agree on virtues right or honesty, courage, bravery, loyalty. Those are all things that we can agree are good on a moral scale. Well, I would like to think that there are also similar virtues in hunting that we're trying to represent through modern huntsmen and in the stories we tell and the people we involve. But not everybody adheres to those And unfortunately the conversation, as Charles said about you know this traditional fight of the right versus the left, Well, if you're not fully with us, you're against us. And if you don't sign up for the you know, super right wing, than you're a liberal communist Tippy, and I found myself in situations where I didn't agree with someone because I felt like they were using buzzwords like conservation when they really weren't in fact a conservation minded person. They just wanted to kill something. And unfortunately, the way that the fight and the conflict in that conversation has become you're either one camp. You're in one camp or the other. And so we felt that there was kind of a large population of people who live quiet lives um who live in an ethical you know, hunting standard, or are dedicated conservationists, or really just hunt for their own meat because it's part of their budget, you know, and it's just part of their you know, their lifestyle passed down through generations. That we felt that group of people wasn't being really represented at all and definitely not fairly represented. And so, you know, Brad's hold upon that by accident with insta gram channel, and it has been a booming echo that it is indeed much needed, that there are a lot of people who don't agree with magazines, say, or the big brands who are more focused on selling product than they are about the actual preservation of hunting tradition, and so we're trying to focus on that stuff, um and and you know, with with non hunters, I'm trying to really listen to what they have to say, and as you mentioned, you know, what do they think about what we post? And I think that that's one of the main points I'm trying to make about hunters is we have to be very wary of the power of images and how quickly information can spread for good or online and what that can do to either improve the perception of hunting or do further damage, because a lot of damage has been been done and there's a lot of images out there that can't be removed, and so we're trying to show that there's a different way, and that there's a different demographic of people that represent what we feel are the main virtues of what hunting is supposed to be. And through that, the tone we've taken, in the sensitivity that we're showing towards people who are not hunters has worked. And there are a lot of people who have ordered this magazine who were either vegans or non hunters. And I just talked with the young lady the other day from California who literally told me, I read your magazine and was so inspired that I signed up for a hunting camp in Washington and she went up and learned how to hunt and shot her first turkey and harvested it, and she said it's the most amazing experience of her life. And she may not be a hardcore hunter, but what we did directly caused her to become interested. I think that the conclusion there is that when when people who aren't hunters realize that they can be quote a hunter, or they can provide some food for themselves, maybe a couple of times a year, a deer or a turkey or a wild hog, and they don't have to sign up for the rest, They don't have to sign up for the gear and the camo and the hunting conventions and all that. That they can live their life in a in a way that feels, you know, rewarding and is more connected with the land. And that's something that they can do on their own terms, and that we can help them find access to opportunities information. It's been really it's been. The reaction has been really positive. So let me let me present a different perspective playing devil's advocate here, because I agree with everything you guys are saying, and what I'm gonna present to you I fundamentally disagree with. But this is something that even when I talked about this kind of stuff, sometimes you'll hear this response. You'll say, why do I need to care about what these other people think? Or why should we want more non hunters to get into hunting. There's not enough spots to hunt as it is. I don't need more competition, Or why should I cater to some yuppie over in this place who doesn't get me at all? Blah blah blah blah blah. You'll hear that kind of response from people. Why what would your response to that? Um to that be? So I'm gonna give a real quick response, and then I want Charles to jump in. My surface level response to that would be because we now live in an age where they're our legislation, legislative opportunities, votes that come up about access to public lands that the general public or people who might be against hunting have a say in. And if we continue to combat those people and treat them as people whose opinion don't matter, that's going to come back to bite us in the ass, and we could potentially lose access or hunting rights as a result. And I'm gonna I'm gonna throw the ball to Charles there. Yeah, you bring up a great point, Tyler, and and Mark, that's a really an interesting question. I think what comes to mind for me, and to kind of add to a little bit of what Tyler started off introducing, is that most of the public land in America is not instagram famous, you know, is not showing up in the Chris burkhard feed or and then that geo feed. The places that people harvest, you know, some of the best mule deer in the Vada or Utah, or some of the best elk its in Montana, these aren't places that people are going the hike in camp and take you know, photos by the lake. So those are just public lands. Those are just pieces of public land. And like, like Tyler said that public land belongs to all the hunters, but also everybody else, and people in Portland's and people in Salt Lake City and people in Boise who maybe have never hunted or could really care less about it, they have a say. And like we've talked about if if the currency for the hunting kind of community and culture, you know, and maybe this is a generalization in some senses is the grip and grand photo that we all know deters non hunters, and like Brad pointed out, really shines the light on one kind of unfortunate moment and the whole experience. Right, Like you wake up a sun right, you go have your hunt. Most times you don't even kill anything, But there's all the moments that make these adventures epic and make these days spent outside transformative, right, And it's it's the sunrise at the time, spent with friends and family, It's the experiences to pursuit, you know. It's all of these things, the numerable you know, qualities that are attached to hunting that we all love and and seek out. But it's that one that one image which the hunting industry has propagated has has has confirmed that photo is worth something too, because we post it, we publish it, we celebrate it. It's the thumbnail on the video, it's the cover of the magazine. And that doesn't do hunters any good because there are more non hunters than hunters. And if you just think about the pie and you're a little slice of the hunting community, the rest of that pie has a voice that's equal to yours in terms of public land. So if your goals hunter is to have your grandkids be able to hunt the units in places that you grew up hunting, then it's in your best interests and your kid's best interest to play ball and to understand that that what we're after is the opportunity to hunt. What we're after our healthy ecosystems that support and produce healthy populations of animals. So you can go get that elf to fill your freezer, bucked to put on your wall, or whatever it is that you're after. But it's a shared resource that, by virtue of being an American, belongs to everybody. So it's just this reality that there needs to be an intention to appreciate the fact that we all have an equal stake in this, that public land needs advocates rather more than ever, because of politics, because of big business, because of development and resourcing to all these threats to public land. So we need allies. You know, we're not doing ourselves any favors by by isolating ourselves and all going on to the same island. And I think you know with that, I draw a parallel to the outdoor industry, which is a place that I've spent a lot of time in my career and you know, being an outdoor recreator um you know, identify with and and same with, the same with you know folks. And on that side of the aisle, their currency is climbing the big wall is somebody in the mountain is how fast did you do the pct? How light was your pack? It's not stewardship those places of they're experiencing, whether it's you know, Denali National Park or the North Cascades. I mean these places were set aside because of their ecological integrity as places with with timber, with clean water, with wildlife. They weren't set aside for Instagram. They weren't set aside for for overnight backpacking trips. But the outdoor industry has propagated this currency of athletic feet over anything. And just like the hunting industry should should realize that that it's not just the grippic grand photo and that groups like Modern Huntsmen and publications like Hours are aiming to move the needle back towards a place of reverence, back towards a place of of of dialogue. You know, the outdoor industry is equally in my opinion, in need of rebranding because what what what they're celebrating the currency that's in that industry is not propagating stewardship by and large. So I think it's not just hunting, uh you know problem. I think the overarching theme and we're just addressing it through this one channel, is to tell everybody, you know, hey, these places and these ecosystems need management, they need stewards they need attention being paid to the whole system, not just you know the epic you know, Granite Wall or or the big buck that you know that we have at our knees. Um. So I think it's kind of a it's a it's a nod to this, this, this, this deeper, you know, this closer look at at at stewardship in general. Yeah. Uh, it's an interesting it's an interesting position to be in from from the inside. And I think a lot of this comes down to I think number one, like you guys all addressed this a couple realities of the situation. If if you want to continue hunting in the future, right, we don't really control our own fate, and that other people will be the larger majority of people don't hunt and we need to either present ourselves in a way that they'll accept and not vote against our right and privilege to do what we're doing right now, or if we don't do that just pragmatically, if we don't do some of the things you're saying, we might lose that privilege. Um. But but I think a lot of this comes down to storytelling, because as you were talking about earlier with the gripping Grand picture, yeah, I mean that is that is especially for someone who's just in this like who hunts all the time and this is their life, is what they love to do. A lot of my friends, even myself at one point, never even thought a second about a grip and grand like you were so excited to share, you know, show your buddy this picture, and then once Facebook and Instagram came around, then you want to share it there because you know there's so much that went into that photo. Of course that doesn't always conveyed through a photo, but you know that there was all those early mornings and all of that work, all spraying and summer and preparing and hours and hours and hours in the woods, and so much emotion and inks and excitement and nervousness and it all came down to this one thing, and in that one moment, it all worked out. And now here you are, and you have this huge smile on your face, and you've never been happier because of all these things that led up to this great moment. But that many times it isn't communicated through that picture. Um, So the question is, though, how do you still how do we still share our excitement and celebrate these special moments in our lives, but do it in a way that doesn't negatively impact the bigger the bigger community. And so I think to all your points already, it's it's how do we communicate better? How do we present photography or video or whatever in a respectful manner? And then I think also providing text. You know, a simple thing that I've just started doing now is that whenever I do share an image that has, you know, an animal that I've hunted and killed, try to provide some contexts that explained what went into it, or why this matters, or why this is a powerful moment, or or what happened with that animal and that meal, And lots of times, just a little bit of explanation for a non hunter when they see this and if it's presented in a respectful way, that is enough to help them connect the dots and not have that kind of drastic gut just feeling of Paul Um. But this is where I'm heading with this, when it comes to some of the context or some of the reasoning behind hunting, or a little bit maybe of how we like to UM. I think the party line lots of times within the hunting community when someone says, well, why do you hunt? Or you shouldn't be able to hunt. That's a horrible thing. Why would you do that? Many times one of the party lines one of the speaking points as well hunting is conservation. You know, by going out there and hunting these animals or whatever, we're paying for all the conservation work, etcetera, etcetera. UM And charl I actually heard you address this issue on another podcast in the past, and I think you had some some helpful perspective on this. I'd be curious if you can speak to this a little bit too, because this is something I felt a lot as well. I wonder and I worry if sometimes we as hunters leaned too much on default conservation by saying that, well, we bought our license so we're contributing to conservation or we bought a rifle and we got taxed on that, so we're conservationists. Um is that enough? I don't think it is. But what are your thoughts, Charles, and what do you think about what the right next step could be. How do we better live up to the conservationist mantle if we want to use that as a as a rationale for why we should be able to hunt or why we have worth and value. Yeah, it's a great point. It's it's one that that Ben O'Brien who has a hunting collective podcast that I talked about a few weeks ago or months ago now. But you know, it's shame that because you hunt your conservationist the same That is exactly the same as saying because you pay taxes your pro infrastructure and pro bridge improvement and pro median management. I mean, it's it's it's an involuntary tax that hunters pay when they buy their license or buy ammunition. Um, you know, whatever it might be, you put some money into the pot, it's not a voluntary you know, something that you seek out as an individual with a with a conscious mindset to say, hey, I'm going to pay extra to do this. Um. You know, it's it's a tax, like I said, just like road improvement or whatever. You know, you know, your municipal tax. Um. So I think that's kind of a you know, um misleading. I think it's kind of just yet a low hanging fruit that that everybody likes to pluck. I mean, that's the same thing as saying, because you're vegan, you have no impact on the earth. Um. But I would argue there's not There's never been more white tailed deer in America, that's a fact than there are today. And if you eat avocados, a lot of them are going in northern Mexico where monarch butterflies over winter. So I would argue that eating whitetailed deer and most of the United States is a much better thing to do for the environment than eating avocados. But that's another conversation. So, you know, I think one to be a conservationist, like Tyler said, it's a life's work. It's it's a it's a pillar that identifies you on the cellular level and also guides the way that you that you carve your signature on their line. Whatever it might be, you know that could be hard pulling to go hunt. That could be biking to go hunt. That could be you know whatever, packing your own making your own ammunition, or buying a used gun. There's all these things that that that adds to your net impact on Earth. Right, Like the worst thing we ever did to this planet was be born. Right, So population is a huge problem. So we just need to mitigate the best we can our net impacts. And I think in a conservationist, there are some, you know, some pretty conspicuous ways to to be a hunting conservationist. And maybe that's getting involved with your local UM Wild Chief Foundation chapter and helping with some um some surveys, or helping with trail maintenance, or just being a mindful, you know, stewardship guided landowner. And maybe that's you know, that can take place in a number of ways. Maybe that's um, you know, managing your forest, doing controlled burns, if you have a if you have a farm. There's all of these things that I think are just you know, elements that collectively make you a conservationist. I personally don't think that because you buy a you know, you buy a license, that makes you a conservationist. I mean, if you go watch your burger unit coologists or if you go catch a fish or your fish biologists. You know, I'd argue not. Um. So yeah, And in terms of the storytelling aspect, you know, I was working on it on a shoot down in South Texas a few years ago. Um, it was a good friend done masters who's a you know, it's a great hunter and certainly conservations in my mind, and we were working with this with this outfitting group, um who did an amazing job of curating those photos. You know, they had clients coming out and hunting whitetail, you know, down in South Texas, and before anybody took any photo, they made sure that the animal was presentable, that they're the blood was cleaned. Literally, these guys carried a little spray bottle in their truck and before anybody take a photo, they cleaned the animal up. If there was anything that was you know, uh, you know, kind of louded in your face, they mitigated it, whether it was putting leaves over the wound or even dirt and just making sure the tongue wasn't hanging out. They even put little a little piece of glass over the eye. I mean they took it to like such an extreme level, you know, probably more than most to be able to. But it just showed like you wouldn't have expected that if you brought somebody from you know, from a suburban Portland down there, they would have been shocked and pleasantly surprised. Because what these hunting guides from this outfitting operation knew and realized is that the second in today's age, the second you published something on your personal account, you're just like a brand. You're just like a magazine. You're putting content out into the world that is is by by nature, by default of being published. It's open for you know, for commentary, it's open for analysis and critique. And like you brought up mark, you know, in the past, it was this thing where you could take a take a photo, you know, maybe you had you know, a film camera or whatever, you just taken on your phone and it wasn't necessarily going to end up in in the you know, out in the world representing you or community and your culture. Um. So you know, it's one thing if you take a picture, keep on your phone, don't publish it, you know, do whatever you want. But I think the second you put it out there, people need to remember that you're speaking on behalf of your community, you know, whether it's uh, you know, you hunting in your backyard or hunting public land. Like you you're portraying hunting, and by default it's up for you know, people to take a poke at if they if they feel fitting. Um So, I think, yeah, the main thing that I would say is, you know, take take that picture, if if that if that picture of the animal, and of that moment where you're you know, your smile so big it hurts, you know, and it's this really like this culmination of so many days and moments and things coming together. Do that. But like you were saying, Mark, you know, there's there's room for context, that's you can write something about it. There's there's room to you know, pay reverence to the animal. You know, it doesn't have to be the big it's buck. It could be just an animal that goes in your freezer. And so a lot of people that's a big deal. Um So, I think just realizing that the second it goes out there, you have this this opportunity to tell a story as opposed to just putting something out there that the blank canvas or people to write whatever they want. Yeah, and I think to to what your point was there, I think lots of times what we need to realize is that what we put out into the world that then many times people if that's the one, you know, opportunity to see this image or to see something related to hunting or this, is there one contact point, all of a sudden, that one thing might represent their entire opinion or perspective on what hunting is or who hunters are. And that's something that I think, um, I think ties into the next tangent I kind of want to take us down, which is how recently, in particular, with some media frenzies, things have happened with hunting in Africa have impacted hunting in North America. So something that shows up on CNN that happened on a different continent all of a sudden is causing a huge frenzy here in America and causing people to ask why we're doing something here in Michigan or something how that might relate to something they saw on TV elsewhere. And I know, Tyler, you've got a lot of experience in this, obviously spending time in Africa. UM So I'm curious on two things. I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on how what's happening in Africa may or may not impact America. And then secondly the CNN Documentary Trophy. I don't know if you guys saw this, but I watched this film and when I while I was watching that, I was thinking about what I just said. I was thinking, Wow, how will someone watching this then translate that back to our context here in North America. If you saw that film, can you speak to what your thoughts on that was and how some of the representations of hunting there um could impact what's going on? And then I mean the Cecil debacle, all the different things going on over there, um, what are your thoughts and all that. So yeah, well, thankfully I've answered these questions in my head and in my personal life many times. Um. So, my first job I went to USC. I went to University of Southern California study photography and film, and my first job out of college was in Tanzania. I moved straight to the bush and filmed hunting Safaris for five months and it was a, you know, a completely transformative experience. And when I came home, the kind of flak that I was we got even from friends and family in Texas of all states about what I was doing. Really showed me how much of a disconnect there was between what people view hunting in Africa to be and what the actual situation is. And so my main story in Modern Husband the first issue was called Africa Overture, and it's literally my effort to kind of communicate a lot of the topics of conversation I've had to have over the years about how it actually works in Africa. And it's different for every country, and you know, but for the most part, the you know, as Charles says, the best examples or what I focused on with that, and I try to talk about the in between. Right, they're supposed to be. You know, there's government mandated game reserves that are least to safari companies and it's there in their best interest to effectively manage those areas with conservation efforts, and the government is there. They do censuses um and based on those sentences, they issue a certain number of permits for whatever species that's supposed to adhere to a specific you know, wildlife management percentage. Well there's a gradient there of how successful or you know, accurate those surveys are there's a you know, a gradient of people's ethics of should they shoot that full quota or is that the government saying, well, we just want more money, so we're going to say there's more almost here than there actually are. So but the point is that there are some incredible conservation over there, and some of the most successful conservation in Africa, most of in fact, is done by hunting operations, and um, you know, I actually worked for the gentleman who bought the black rhino tag a couple of years ago at the Dallas Safari Club. And the Shabbian government issues a rhino tag of per sale every year because there's usually some aggressive bull or sterile bull that's killed other young males. And they auctioned this thing off at the Dalla Safari Club and they literally had a million dollars that they were going to pay for this tag, which was gonna go on into the rhino conservation rhino con conservancy there and in Namibia, and the animal rights groups got wind of it and they sent in death threats enough to where the FBI had to show up and said that anyone who bids on this rhino hunt we're going to kill. And so everyone got scared off except for Corey Nolton, who have They eventually did to see an end comentary on and so when the bidding opened, he bid three dollars and no one else bid because they were scared that they were going to get their life's ruined by animal rights you know, protagonists or antagonists. And so rather than the bid going the way of what it was supposed to and a million dollars go to rhino conservation, those animal rights groups literally blocked three quarters of a million dollars from going to rhino conservation. And that's just purely out of ignorance and lack of understanding of the way the situation is. And you know, the whole Cecil situation, that's that's a a complicated issue. To be fair, that guy was sold a lion license that was not on license, so it was a little bit of an ethics issue with the game scout in in in that country. Um, there's some lessons there. I mean, I think that anyone in their right mind who was going on a lion hunt who saw radio collared lion might think twice about if that's a good idea from a publicity standpoint to do something like that, and hunting in itself a very controversial issue. Um that you know, has a, like I said, a spectrum of of you know, is this a good or bad thing? And it just depends on the area. But the point is that people in the West have developed a very strong emotional attachment to animals that in most cases they've never seen. And often the public opinion of these topics is swayed by whoever yells the loudest, and in most cases, animal rights and anti hunting groups are the ones that yell the loudest, or have the most money, or unfortunately, take some of these bloody trophy photos that we all put online and turn those into memes that then then they then put millions of dollars behind to market and spread across the internet. So the opinion has been swayed in a lot of cases by misinformation. And so at the very least, we are trying to showcase the facts and the realities and the goods and the bads in between. And you know, we want to focus on the good, but you see the good in context of the bad, and that there are people who aren't out to conserve, they about to make money. And you know, in a real in a reality as you applying to the United States. Because of the backlash that the administration received. Because of the backlash the administration received about you know, some of these Africa hunts, it has created a ban in the United States of importation of elephant and lion um trophies, harvests just skins or touched or anything like that. And so the result of that is that the African governments have now are are now currently losing hundreds of millions of dollars every year that it would be directly uh, you know, applied to conservation. And so a lot of these hunting operations in remote areas have shut down and they've had to give their areas back to the government, which basically means there are now massive game reserves, tens of millions of acres that are no longer being effectively anti you know, anti poaching patrols are not in they're not being managed anymore, and so poachers are moving in, you know, ivory poachers, meet poach trs, tree poachers. Which is an often overlooked problem in Africa is habitat loss. So people who cut down trees or move their cattles and to move their cattle into areas that they're not supposed to graze in as the habitat that these animals, you know, African wildlife need to survive, and with population expansion, habitat destruction and the increasing conflict of all three of them is created a major problem. And unfortunately, as legislation goes in the United States, so conservation goes in Africa. So it's been a very bad thing. And then beyond that, just the word hunter right is being painted as a negative thing, which is part of the reason we chose the term huntsman instead of hunter, because we wanted to get away from the current connotation of the word hunter. And that's not meant to be a gender exclusion for people who might wonder that. It's more of a poetic word that has a gender in the same way that Spanish and its Italian words have gender. So it's meant to be sort of um, a little more of a poetic representation of what the tradition is supposed to be um And we're hoping that by that we can start to show people that, Okay, what you see on the news is not what we're talking about. We're talking about something different. And also what you see on the news isn't quite accurate. This is the deal, and we're trying to be presented presenters of those facts and perspectives so that hopefully people start to, you know, use a little bit more logic and rationale. Yeah, I think I think the African example, what happened there around a few of these incidents and how that translated to the media frenzy in America and then law changes, I think that is a great example. And then I think also what recently happened in British Columbia with the banning of grizzly bear hunting. Both of these things were kind of public opinion um votes, or or just catering to an uproar of opinion around something that sometimes isn't fully understood, or there's misinformation around there, or one bad apple painted the whole thing um. But I think there are examples that we should look to as to why this whole idea of representing ourselves positively matters. I know probably some people listening, and I've talked about this so much, they might think that I'm just like appear on stage preaching all the time about this and it might maybe gets tiring. And I apologize if that's the case. But I think that we are just seeing now real life impacts that are coming to fruition when we're not careful about how the public perceives what we're doing. Because if we represent things in the wrong way now things are happening. Privileges and rights are being taken away, laws are being changed, and um, you know that that's just just something that while it's not convenient sometimes it's a pain, but to have to think about all these different things, it simply is the reality that we live in. And I think being mindful in these ways, um is probably our best step moving forward if we want to continue to be able to live this lifestyle. Now to what you just mentioned, Tyler, this idea of of the modern huntsmen or modern hunter, or however people want to take this, what is is your guys, vision of what that person is. What's your vision of the future hunter, of the of the modern future hunter. What does this person and this lifestyle look like going forward? If we want to keep this thing going forward. Sure, I think that this is something that I definitely want Charles to weigh in in on as well, because you know, in the same way that you know, when we've been talking to brands or sponsors and your partners for ongoing issues or web stories, people say, what's your demographic right, And the answer to that question is not a very succinct pinpointed, Okay, this is the exact type of person we're looking for. This is the exact type of person we're trying to represent. We're more so representing a mindset and a value system and an approach to what we've is the best case of ethical hunting and conservation and stewardship. And so whether that's a ten year old, you know kid down in Alabama, or that's a twenty four year olds in college graduate from California, where that's a sixty five year old guy in in Minnesota who feels like he's never been able to truly express what how he feels and he feels like his voice gets drowned out with the hunting industry. So I think that realistically, it's more of someone who um kind of anything that we've said up to this point, if it resonates with you, that's who we think. You know, we're we're trying to reach here, and we're trying to become a resource and a gathering point for like minded creatives hunters and and and conservation to show that and hopefully carve out a larger piece of the pie for people who think this way, because we feel that they're not accurately being represented in you know, mainstream publications and and things like that. And and maybe through a trickle down effect that the hunting industry or even the mainstream media will see what we're doing and say, hey, you know what, that's that's honorable and that's virtuous, and we think that that deserves um for more people to know about it, or more people should order the magazine, or maybe I'll submit a story even if they're not a hunter. And so you know, moving forward, we're gonna be including stories from non hunters, non hunting perspectives, and of course the lens there is. It needs to be constructive. You know that that we're two as Charles said, bridge build bridges and bridge the gaps and hopefully reduce conflict. But I think that when it comes down to it, we're hoping to sort of recruit people and maybe recruits not the right word to inspire or enable people who are conservation minded in the sense of, you know, trying to be act an active participant in the you know, in the management the effective management of landscape or the preservation of our natural resources and protection of habitats and UH and having a larger role in that UM and and just being respectful you know, ethical hunters. Do you add anything, Charles, Yeah, I mean I think just the kind of backpedal here for a can the the topic of Africa and the topic of special and UH and trophy the film and how that might um inspire influence some of the ways that hunting is perceived or public plants are managed share in the US. You know, one thing I'd add that I think kind of devetails into the into your next question about the kind of modern huntsman. Who that person is? You know, I always like to bring this up, and we talk about Africa and town and I are constantly talking about Africa because it's not something I know a lot about. But what I do know is that Africa is complex, that each country in Africa has a different suite of rules, of regulations, of successes and failures, of the political climates, of economic climates. There are all these things that are affecting the way wildlife and lands and ecosystems are managed. Even down to the regional scale, Like each you look at one country, there's going to be areas of success in areas of failure within that country. So I think the really unfortunate, uh kind of phenomena that seems to be quite pervasive in the world in America as well, is that we are spoon fed these gross over generalizations, many of which are negative. You know, like read the front page of whatever your local newspaper is and most of the stories are negative. Most of them, um, you know, are picking something that triggers a response. You know, they want to feed you the seven word byline that makes your heart race or makes you want to cry, or whatever makes you scared. I mean, that's the currency of media, and for hunting, it's been destructive, you know, Like these films are made to piss people off. These films are made to evoke a response, not generally to say, you know, the problems a little bit or the situation, the landscape a little bit more complicated than we than we really understand. And this is the best that we understand about this one aspect of this broader narrative. And I think that is what we are also trying to point out is that these stories. Hunting is complicated. Wolves exist in North America, but the reality of wolves is different in BC compared to Idaho. You know, like wolves. There are some wolves in California, but there their whole situation, the political climate associated with them, their ecological impact is very different than wolves and Yellowstone. And wolves and Yellowstone are incredibly different than wolves twenty miles outside of Yellowstone. So we are we society The public is constantly reminded falsely that because we understand what happened to wolves and Yellowstone, we understand wolves in general. And that is really unfortunate because the world is complicated. Hunting is complex. There are hunters that are amazing people that we at modern huntsmen will elevate and lift up and celebrate and shina light on. But there are also people who we won't because they have a lot of room, you know, to improve, just like politicians, just like your local banker, just like a used car salesman. You know, like any sect of society has people who are stellar humans and people who you know, have some room to improve. And and we're all, you know, we all faults in all places to improve. Nobody's perfect. But to say all hunters are good or all hunters are bad is misleading. To say all politicians are good or bad is misleading. And to say Africa is just one, um, you know, homogeneous place, or hunting in North America is just one homogeneous uh kind of landscape bus misleading. And I think that's something that we should continue to inject into these conversations because somebody will ask Tyler or me or whoever about hunting in Africa, and they probably think they have their head pretty well wrapped around the question, you know, trophy hunting is bad. Well, like Tyler said, there's examples where trophy huntings actually pretty benign and good. But there's also examples of troviy hunting that's probably pretty you know, she could he could use some improvement, or is maybe not as sensitive whereas actually maybe not you know, ecologically beneficial. Um. And that's the kind of minutia that I think that we want to point out. And and while pointing that out, say like, here are examples of this in a wonderful light that we can all draw inspiration from and that we hope the next generation of hunters embodies. And I think that, in my opinion, is the modern huntsman. It's somebody who realizes that if you want to harvest a big elk, there needs to be a healthy watershed with healthy soil and healthy the fire regime and a healthy invertebrate community. And these animals that we pursue are are directly a reflection of healthy ecosystems. So if you're big on you know, elk, for example, you know your best friends should be the guy who's studying the aspen in the Red Paring corridor. And we need to realize that all of these things are connected and that there's a lot of things we don't know. I mean, that's what I love about ecology and science is that science exists under the understanding that we don't know everything, and that science is always improving, and that when we say something in the scientific world, we say it with an understanding, but there is a a great possibility that we're wrong or that we don't know everything. And I think with hunting and modern huntsmen, we want to point out these complexities and point out rooms for growth. And also, you know, we're not in the business of saying like every person is the best that there ever could be in the hunting world, like We're here to celebrate the people that we should all look up to. UM. And I think that should go with you know, any of the topics, whether like I said, it's Africa or trophy hunting or whatever. There's there's great examples and there's examples that aren't so great, um, And there's always improvement to be made. Yeah, I think I think to add on to that. I'm sorry, Mark, I was just gonna add on real quick. I think to add on to that too. This is kind of the beauty of storytelling, right is it's not a presentation of what's right versus what's wrong, or here's how to live better or the top ten ways to improve your game or whatever. It's a presentation of something that goes far beyond what is fact, and it goes into the soul level of what you define truth to be. And so, you know, we are intentioned through everything we do, whether it be through media, whether it be through conversations, whether it be through um. You know, being being a part of of a topic of interest is simply to present a narrative that may or may not have been heard before, may or may not have been presented before, and that in doing so, we give the listener or the viewer or the reader the ability to interpret that in their own frame of reference, because at the end of the day, the thing that's most polarizing is somebody who believes that they are the supreme truth and they're presenting their supreme truth as fact. And we know that, you know, we can do without much of the polarizing media outlets in America and go towards something that's less sensationalized and more normalized. And when you start to normalize a conversation, allow people to make their own decisions and to see facts and figures, but also see somebody's heart and soul behind it. It gives you the opportunity to actually feel something and be convicted by it, as opposed to having to feel like you know you are on the outside if you don't participate in this, or you're wrong if you don't, or you're right if you don't. But instead and give them a reason to feel and to believe in something. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up to I think I think that is so important to look at this um, look at a lot of these issues we've been talking about, and not in a polarizing kind of way, but in uh, and let's let's have a dialogue kind of way. Let's be inclusive, let's better understand each other, let's look at the complexities and the nuance here. Um and and to your earlier points, so much of what's going on in the larger world could um maybe improved a little bit if we just all got a little bit better at doing that. Um. But another thing, I want to to make sure he is known. And I might be speaking for you guys here a little bit, but I think it's important to note that, you know, even if you do enjoy you know, the traditional hunting media and hunting TV shows, and you like the hunting magazines, and you know, I watch in and read and participate in a lot of that stuff myself too, there's nothing wrong with enjoying some of that stuff but then also agreeing with some of the ideas that are being presented by you guys and modern huntsmen. I don't think it's an either or. I think it's uh. I think it's hey, here's some different things we can take in this aspect. Here's some things to think about on that side of things. I think, you know, we're all part of this community. I think what you guys are doing a really nice job of is though, is is shining a light on certain aspects of things and saying, hey, let's have a conversation around this. Is this the best way to present things? Is there are there some different ways that we can talk about this, UM, And I think that is a powerful thing. And I would want to make sure that someone who you know, I don't want anyone to be turned off by these ideas because they feel like they don't fit into this little narrow box. UM. Even if you come from southern Michigan and love watching your white tail freaks devid, that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that. UM. You can also you know, be interested and intrigued and curious about, you know, learning about some of these different ways of looking at hunting or different ways to talk about hunting or UM. I think we share a lot of the same common core beliefs and virtues. We appreciate many of the same things. UM. I think it just comes down to how we then communicate those things and and sometimes just take a second to think about these things. And what I like about what you guys are doing is the fact that you're giving you're putting this, um, this platform out there, that that presents an opportunity to see some different ways of thinking through these things that I think is valuable. Um. So that's that's a good thing, I think for the for the future of hunting, because if we're all just talking the same language all all the time and we're stuck on that echo chamber, we never have that room or that incentive to grow or evolve. And I think, um, as far as I see it, we're gonna have to continue to evolve if we want to keep wildlife and wild places and hunting a part of the future in this this country, this world. Right. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think to to your point of you know, I don't I'm glad you brought that up, because you know, in no way are we saying that, you know, other media or magazines are irrelevant. It's more of that we've felt that people that aren't being represented in those shows or in those magazines that, um, we're trying to give a voice. And in a lot of situations, um, you know, with the story, we're trying to focus it more on rather than the the end result, right of the trophy or the buck or whatever, more about the individual experience along the way, which is what you mentioned in terms of context and in the scenario and how much work went into that, um and and where you know, the main street you know, the other magazines, and those are hyper focused on on a specific demographic, right, people who are more interested in ballistics or you know, aero performance or um, you know, white tail freaks or whatever that may be. And that's that media is intended for those types of people who are very interested in that specific type of information. Our product is much more focused on an outward facing message, right. We are trying to help bridge the gap between you know, the two communities. And you know, not everyone's gonna want to have difficult conversations. And and you know, there may be some people who hear what we're saying they're like, oh, that's cool, you know, good luck with that. Um. You know, I I'm not necessarily gonna participate, but I respect what you're doing kind of thing. And that's that's fine. You know, we're just trying to, you know, make make access to the hunting world at least a little easier for a non hunter, and we're just trying to do it in a different tone. That's a little more approachable. Um, that isn't so uh specific. I mean, for instance, the Journal of Mountain Hunting. They produce an amazing magazine, but it's so specific because it's like very very hardcore training technical mountain hunting that I wish I could do, but I'm nowhere near the shape to be able to do something like that. And that's aspirational for me, but that may not be necessarily relevant for me reading I may not understand it or I may not get it because that just doesn't necessarily suit my lifestyle at this moment. And and so I think that you know, it's important to make that distinction that there's um, it's all part of the same mission here. We're all moving in the same direction. We're just trying to take a little a little different of a tone in ours. Yeah, So speaking of the fact that your your project here is it's a little more outward facing, it's a little bit more about helping present hunting to two new people in a way that's a little bit more approachable for many for many folks. So I'm curious than given that UM lens that you guys have been looking at hunting through and through probably a lot of the conversations you've had with people that have been curious about hunting maybe but having delved into it yet. I'm curious if you can give us back to traditional media. Can you give us a how to, a quick like one, two, three, of something that we hunters can be thinking about, maybe a couple different ways we can do a better job of connecting with new hunters or communicating about what we're doing to new hunters. Um, if we want to have some of these difficult conversations, or if we want to bring someone in the fold, do you guys have a couple pieces of advice based on your experience that we could take. Yeah, I've got a quick one, and then I'll let Charles Treentman because I'm sure he's got different ones, which is great because we have a variety of perspective. Um. You know. For me, I think that what's been really well received in context of um of non hunters and even people like vegans who are against it for what they perceived to be moral reasons against a big beef industry or or a poultry industry. And that's the context of food, right, hunting for food or eating what you kill. And so I think that that's something that a lot of us who do that take for granted and and how people uh don't even consider that that's a possibility for them, that you can go out and harvest your own food. And so I think that that's something we're really trying to focus on because, um, you know, even even you know shows, cooking shows or or you know, things like Chef's Table, people accept the context of hunting when it's viewed through the lens of cuisine. And so that's something thing that I you know, I've made sure that I've communicated in some of my conversations possibly in a difficult topics or things like that, is is that connection to food right? And I think that, um, you know, beyond that, it's a lot of times people get asked why do you hunt? And that's a hard question to answer, but I think that that's an important question to ask yourself and whether or not you need to justify yourself to somebody. I don't necessarily know if you need to, but I think that it's important to look inward and really kind of ask ourselves why we do that. Why is it important? Is it an instinct? Well, is that the only reason we do it? Surely it's more than that. And so we're trying. We're attempting to be able to communicate a variety of those reasons why people hunt, and ideally we're focusing on the ones that we feel to be are a little more exemplary or you know, adhering to virtues to that. You know, words and and images are the things that stick with people, must you know what. We know this to be intrinsically true. And I think that we've almost bastardized Instagram, uh in a sense of or we've we've bastardized imagery because of Instagram and because of photo sharing technology that we've almost I think I think Charles put it so in such a good light, um, and I want to frame it differently that you know, Instagram, every time you put something out on social media, you're casting a vote for something. Not only not only are you, um presenting a topic that people can have commentary on, but you're also casting a vote. And because of the normalization of being able to just you know, cast your vote through imagery and share that with the world, and now you have a public opinion towards something and people have access to that, it means a lot and I think that we discount it severely, you know, because it's it's our it's our channel, it's our page. We should be able to do whatever you want. And that's true, it's absolutely correct. But you now have given access to people to be able to content and also in conversation or um in in sharing you know, maybe an experience that you had hunting on social media through the written word or spoken word, it matters. You know, people are listening to that all the time. And so that's a huge point for me that that as coming from somebody who was formerly not in this space, felt excluded in intimidated by this industry. One of my points of contention was I was afraid to say to people that I was a non hunter. I was afraid to talk to hunters and say that I wasn't a hunter because I felt like I'd be pushed out of the club. And to be able to have a tone of voice that is more inviting, that speaks to um. You know, this is not us versus you, This is not you can't come into our club, but instead, this is something that we want you to be a part of. I want to share this experience with you, whether it's I want to take you in the field, or whether it's I want to show you some pictures of my last time I'm so proud of, you know, x YZ, or whatever animal harvested, or whether it's um you know, I want to show you high prepared this this dish. That's something that we have the opportunity to not just share, but get people excited and feel included about. So I think that's one thing that ultimately, you know, in a mass media setting, all of us collectively are the voice of hunting. I don't think we need to take that lightly. Modern huntsman is not going to change the industry, you know, Barretta and Pilson and Sitka and brands and we are not going to change the industry. It's the people, right, It's all of us collectively. We're the ones who do this. And so if we can have a much more sensitive and thoughtful tone of voice and not change how we do things or the approach of of the actual hunt, but how we communicated, I think that's the ultimate key to being able to uh convicted and persuade that perception away from what the majority of non hunters perceived it to be now into what the majority of hunters actually feel it to be Ye, would you anything, Charles, Yeah, I think you know two things that come to mind, um when they think about qualities of of hunters and that you know that I think I and by you know, through the collective lens, we think the next generation to benefit from. And I think about people like my friend Adam Floss, who's a celebrated bow hunter, one of my best friends. Just a brilliant creative as well. But you know, go go walk around the mountains with somebody like him, and you are brought into this world where he's reading the wind and looking at tracks and reading this marketings on the trees, and just he is painting, telling you this picture of an ecosystem through a hunt your's eyes, somebody who's spent decades, you know, really studying the environment. And for everybody out there's a hunter. You know, when you succeed and harvest something, when it goes from hunting to harvesting, that that that bridge, that portal that you go through, that hinges upon your ability to read the woods, to be a woodsman or you know, be a naturalist, or to be be fluent in your backyard, or the rhythms of the places you hunt, and that I think is something that's really exciting and something that's that's often overlooked. You know, when you think about teaching your kid to hunt, or if you have kids, you take your kids hunting, you're telling them about all the things that might predispose them to a successful hunt. And those are the things that I'm sure you look in their eyes and you get so excited about seeing them loving the creek in the forest and you know, you know, making an owl call to stir up a turkey. You know, there's all these things that are part of hunting that i are really beautiful and amazing inspiring, and that makes you a good hunter, but also make you a steward and make you somebody who's an advocate and somebody who who will speak up for those places, those wild ecosystems that don't have a voice and need them now more than ever, so I think, you know, and and that goes into food. You know, I'm looking at, uh, you know, amount of an animal I harvested a few years ago, and some of my favorite memories of that hunt have been the barbecues I've had, Like the other day, I hadn't we just my fiance and moved into a new place, and we have friends over and we ate some of the elk that we harvested, and and that barbecue was so fun being able to share food. But you worked your butt off for through snowstorms and through you know, all these crazy events and and you know near opportunities, and then you get to sit down with your friends and family and share a meal, and with that meal comes all this reverence and comes all this positive energy and excitement. I mean, those are the things that get us fired up, right, Like the photo of the animal will always be something to remember, but there's all the experiences that radiate and orbit from that that really make us addicted and passionate about what we're doing. And I think that's such a beautiful element that I know, at modern huntsman, we want to celebrate and like Howler said, in terms of pr and storytelling, cuisine is a wonderful vehicle to do that. And it's also something that everybody has in common. Everybody's got to eat, and everybody loves knowing a little bit about their food, and hunting gives us a great opportunity to talk about that. Yeah, something you said a couple of times there. Charles brings me to another question that I that I often have been asking people, and it comes it kind of fits in very nicely with with a lot of what we've been talking about, that being the importance of our words. And I'm curious. You mentioned a couple of times that you harvested an animal, and I'm I'm really interested in people's perspective on this word, using the word that they harvest an animal or they killed an animal. There's there's some people that say that when you say the word kill, you killed an animal. That's too aggressive, that's too harsh, that's going to turn people off, that's going to scare people away. Um, And so they say harvest. And then there's other people that say kill because no, that's the truth of what's happening, that is the reality of what's happening here. I'm going to honor the truth and honor the animal by saying that. On the other hand, they feel that harvest. Then by saying harvest, it's like you are framing wildlife as a crop that you're just growing and taking, and that's disrespectful. So those are these two different perspectives on those two words that I often hear, and I don't know where I stand on it, but I'm really curious to hear different people's opinions on it. I'm your Charles. Is this something you've you've thought about and you actively choose to use the word harvest for one of these reasons or something else or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah? Totally, I mean I think about it is like the same analogous too. You can be driving and you can be speeding, but to speed you have to drive, right, So to kill, you can just kill something. It doesn't have to mean you're harvesting it. But harvesting implies that there's that second step, there's that something, there's that amendment to the initial function of killing or in the in the analogy of driving, right, like that's the first entry point. And you know you might be driving one day and run over a rabbit. You're not harvesting that rabbit, just killed the rabbit. Harvesting a driver and incentives to do what you're doing. And I think harvest also, I think looks the reverence and appreciation and understanding for that process. People talk about the second hunt. You know, you go bow hunting, you got to find the animal and then there's the tremendous aout of work that comes with packing it out, you know, especially if you're hunting up in the mountains, like that's that's a huge part of the adventure. And you know, thinking about harvesting food, I mean, I grew up with vegetable gardens. For everyone out there, thing he's ever tried to grow strawberries. Like when you finally get your second year strawberry plants coming back in and you have sixty strawberries, each one means so much because you put all that effort into getting that little strawberry, but the slugs didn't get and you know, weren't picked off by a bird, and there's just that that extra bit of energy attached to it. And I think harvesting embodies all those extra adjectives, those extra extra elements that come from yes, the animal died, but it's being harvested because or for me at least, you know, I'm pursuing these animals to eat and to share with signs and family. And I think there's a distinction there, right, Like some people kill things and telling little harvest things, and I think harvest um for me is the right word. That's a that's an interesting perspective and and one I hadn't thought about in that way. And and that that harvest to you connotates not just the act of the kill killing, but it's also then the intention behind and how you're going to use it to eat, et cetera. That that's an interesting perspective on it. Tyler or Brad, Would you guys carried away in on that at all? Yeah? I think it's also a matter of context, right, you know, if we're all in a room full of hunters and you're not just worried about what people are thinking of what you're saying, you know, you could in a casual conversation you may say you killed it. But in in you know, the venture we're in, which is trying to be diplomats of what we feel to be ethical hunting, which trying to do what we can to make sure that we minimize, you know, conflict. And I think that you're right the term killing, even though yes, that's what it is, um is one of those things where people might take that the wrong way or or it might it might offend them. And you know, then comes the Agel question, do you need to worry about what other people think, and it goes back to what we discussed earlier that in certain cases, Yeah, so you know, do you need to watch what you say all the time. I would advise it. It's not necessarily, you know, going to be a game changer. But I think that what Charles is referring to is more of a matter of respect. And if you're if you're saying it out of habit or you're saying it out of like, oh well I've done it so many times so it doesn't really mean anything anymore, then that's one thing. But using a different word or or if you say the word kill, you know, and there's a sense of remorse, that's a different thing. But I think if if it's more just like going through the motions and like, you know, I I killed four deer because I killed four every day, four deer every year, and it's not really exciting to me anymore, then I kind of that's where I would kind of see a problem in that. Um, you know, just de sense it desiation um. And so yeah, I don't know, I mean I use it in different contexts or you know, you could say reap, you know, so uh, either in ridge reaper, I mean, people use that term as well. So I don't know. I think it's more of just the matter the intention of you saying it in the audience. You're you know, saying it too. And there's a certain luxury that most industries can afford, you know, camping or hiking, biking, a lot of the outdoors culture there doesn't have to be as much sensitivity because the stakes are lower, right, you don't you don't have the same effect. Um, while you do have enough on the surroundings, you don't have as much effect when you are camping, high biking, Um, when you are taking the live of an animal. We we don't live in the same luxury of being able to be as loose with our words. So you know, to both Tyler and Charles point, it's it's a matter of what is the terminology in the right context that's going to allude that there is a point of respect that you have when you're around with your buddies. Like Tyler said, absolutely, man, use the lingo that makes the most sense, and that's gonna bring you closer to your community. Um, because you all know and you all get it. But when people don't get it or there's some contention there it's worth considering to be able to, you know, watch what you say, understand who's listening, and ultimately that there is an impact that you're leaving behind with every word that you say. So, whatever the word may be that you choose to say, I hope that it would be something that people understand what you're implying, not just what you're saying. Yeah, I think this comes down to think what all three of you mentioned kind of I think relates to maybe what the moral of this entire podcast is, the moral of this story. I feel like it's just being mindful, being thoughtful about what we're doing, how we're doing it, how we're communicating about it. Um, and the nuance there and UM, I think you guys all have really interesting points and perspectives on that one example there, that word there, to your point, Bread, it's a heavy word. It's a heavy idea. What we're doing here, the stakes here are not trivial in any in any way. This isn't like shooting a basketball who what we're doing is is trying to take an animal's life, which is inherently is serious of a thing is as there can be. UM. So I think the way we think about and talk about these sayings should mirror that seriousness. Um, I've got two final quick questions for you guys. The second question I'll tell you is going to be that I'm interested in what is coming down the line for modern huntsmen. So I'm gonna you guys can be thinking the back of your mind about what we have to look forward to with the next issue all that kind of stuff. But before that, what I'm curious about is I would love you know, just based on hearing from you guys, and hearing and seeing your work in previous places, I think I'm guessing you've got some some quality taste in media as far as books or films anything like that. So so I'm curious if you have any books or films or resources that you'd recommend to us to whether it be related to hunting or the outdoors or conservation, anything within this realm that we've been talking about that you'd recommend. Um. And I don't know, Charles, would you want to start with with a couple of recommendations? Yeah? Absolutely. Um. Two books that that I really enjoy are The Great Animal Orchestra by Bernie Krauss, and it's a book about the Ecology of Sound. And it's something that I know a lot of hunters are already thinking about because you know, out hunting, but it's this, it's this book that for me really changed the way I looked at ecosystems and looked at just the natural world. And Bernie Krause, he's got a great ted talk on it. Um, he's kind of this uh, this ecology jedi who's who's got a lot figured out and he uh, he tells the story in a pretty unique way. So that's one book. And then you know another book that's the really is just like a timeless classic that was really really um galvanized my passion and interest in natural history and storytelling is a sand County mac Elderly. It's kind of one of the grandfathers and conservation um. And those those are two books that just uh yeah, that that are really really inspiring and well done. Um you know. Uh. In terms of films, I think one that I felt, which they all plug because because I worked on it, but also because it was a film that that really opened my eyes to complex narratives is a film called Island Earth. That's a film that was directed by Sarah Sutton, a great friend, one of the first people I worked for after grad school, you know, diving into the creative world. Um. He's a just a really talent that he's an Emmy Award winner pro surfer, but also an amazing reporter and kind of objective journalists. And Island Earth is a film you can find an iTunes, um, probably some other places, but I do know it's on iTunes, and it explores GMOs and kind of the landscape of genically modified organisms, specifically plants. It kind of takes place in Hawaii, were a lot of the big chemical companies, you know, the Dousand Monsantos do a lot of their their research. Um. And yeah, I think it does a really good job of painting a fair brushstroke across a really complicated topic, kind of like hunting or politics or whatever. Um. So yeah, that would be kind of my shameless plug for Islanders. But it's it's a film that I think will definitely open your eyes and kind of highlight those those complexities and the fact that there's not one easy answer to some of these bigger problems. Interesting, I have not seen that, but luff to check it out and to your Sand County Almanac recommendation I can't echo that enough. We've talked about a lot un passed episodes, so hopefully if you haven't yet, this is another reminder to check that one out. And it's funny you mentioned that I just got a tweet yesterday from someone. Um. They tweeted at me and said that they went into Barnes Noble and went up to the counter after hearing us talk about it, and it asked for and asked if they had a Sand County Almanac, and the lady or person whoever it was, UM just got this really like huge smile on their face and like this quizzical look, and they're like, that is the weirdest thing because literally just moments before she went and got the one lone copy of a Sand County Almanac from out back and put on the shelf, thinking how no one's gonna pick this up, and just seconds later someone asked for it. So that, yeah, kind of kind of a strange, interesting circumstance. So it was it was meant to be UM that Eldo was going to find his way to someone else's mind. UM. So, Tyler, do you have any recommendations? I do, UM, So, I unfortunately haven't been able to read as much the last few months with travel and us trying to get things going forward. But I a couple of months ago I finished Roosevelt Trilogy there. You know, it's a three part book or three book series, a massive I think. The first one was called The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, the second one was called Theodore Rex, and the last one's Colonel Roosevelt. But the second one, in particular, Theodore Rex, was about his active presidency, and it really goes into a little more detail about his views of conservation and how he came about them through touring around the United States and seeing areas of what used to be wilderness that were just being decimated it and he really felt the need to try to make it stop. And so it really kind of goes into that and how he put that into action legislative wise. And then you know, after his presidency, some of the hunting so far as he went on, and it was really interesting to me to see that even back in you know, nineteen fourteen or nineteen eighteen, whatever it was, that the people's people were still giving crap about And you know, I had no idea. I just assumed that back then hunting was much more widely, and while it may be on a larger scale, but there was still a general public in sensus that questioned some of these you know, bigger game quests, and that was really interesting to me, and UH it definitely gave a little bit more perspective into his conservation philosophy and how it sort of led us to where we're at today. UM, So i'd highly recommend that. UM. In terms of films, I don't have a specific film that I have watched recently. Two of note, however, UM, Charles and I and Brad are working together to make the Modern Huntsman Site be a pretty hefty resource for conservation films and hunting films and films that UH promote and discuss topics like Charles was talking about. And so here in the next few months, we're gonna be releasing a lot more of those on the site UM in an effort to kind of expand the conversation and and be able to showcase more work of directors and cinematographers and people who are just doing great things in the film world. Because currently, you know, to watch a lot of these films, you gotta go to fifteen different YouTube channels. You gotta go to film festival or you gotta follow the right person on Instagram. And so we want to try to be um, you know, sort of a collection and a resource for for all that type of work. So check back soon and hopefully we'll have a lot more of those. In the film trail of it we just posted last week, uh and I'll plug Charles. Here was his film that he uh produced with Max Lowe and UM forced yep, Forest Woodward uh Sky Migrations. UM. We posted the trailer on our on our page, and it is absolutely fantastic. UM. I would highly recommend nobody. Yeah, it really is that we did not play in that, but no, there there are a number, I mean a vast number of creatives in this space who are writers or photographers or filmmakers, UM or you know, like like Charles, who are you know, by trade an ecologists, but by you know, value a storyteller and can apply They're learning into a way that people both you know, hunters non hunters. I mean not to just get to general, but but that folks can digest and interpret the work and the findings that they've come up with and really get inspired by it. Um. Charles is a ridiculous storyteller. I'll then know you that six box are saying that Dad, thanks buddy. Yeah, and that to to echo what you recommended a second ago there, Tyler to Theodore Roosevelt, Um, histories, you cannot go wrong with learning more about what that guy did. He had his hands on so much of of what we now have as as an amazing inheritance, whether it be the our public lands or wildlife populations and game laws that allow them to be sustainable, or the fair chase. You know, the ethics and morals that we that we have around how we pursue game. Um, he was involved in so much of that stuff. And and I haven't read Theodore Rex yet, but I have read many, including on one I'd recommend The Wilderness Warrior, which it's a heavy one. It's a tough one to get through if you're not like really devoted to wanting to know everything about Theodore Roosevelt related to the wild, the wild environment and conservation. But if you are really interested in that, it goes so into debt of of everything he had that he was involved with. And um, you'll walk away from that book knowing a lot. Uh. And he'll appreciate what he did a lot more. Another one that I'm actually reading right now is called The Naturalist, which is another look at Fiodoor Roosevelt from natural history standpoint, but a little more focused on his experiences in nature and his focus on understanding them from a natural history perspective, from like a you know, how to observe, collect and even you know, send some these specimens to museums and different things. But it really goes into detail about a lot more of his outdoor experiences and ventures, and and through those stories it does talk a little bit about some of the politics and some of the different things he achieved in office. But um, that's an interesting perspective to UM. And then if you're a hunter and you want to just understand tr from a hunting perspective. His books that he wrote are really fantastic too. He was a really really great writer, not him, He was great at so many things, UM, But The Wilderness Hunter is a great one. And UM, Hunting Trips of a Ranchman, I think, is another uh that that are great, really compelling, interesting stories that he tells. UM that really puts you right back there in western North Dakota. And four and and and understand what that was like. Um So those are all additional recommendations that throw out there. So, um well, just to add to that topic. I'm not sure if you actually got to read volume one up on Her Huntsman yet. But we have the added benefit of having the guidance of one Simon Roosevelt, who's actually TR's great great grandson. Um I met him a few years ago and sort of in the beginning stages of this venture, and um, he you know, at the right time. I asked if he would want to help advise us, and he said, I'll do you want better, I'd I'd like to not only advise, but you know, be be a contributor. So we have him as a columnist, and he's definitely having a major hand and helping us guide helping guide us in the in the right direction and and sort of adhering to some of those principles and but then sort of modernizing them where they need to be modernized. And so you know, he's definitely somebody who's who's had a very large behind the scenes role doing so it's an honor for sure. I did see that and I thought that was that was very cool. So that's A. That's a perfect segue then too. My next question, which is what should we be looking forward to in the next issue and the future and where can people find all this stuff? I guess and I don't know if Tyler, if you want to take the first step of that or anyone else. Sure, So I think that, UM, you know, right now we're really trying, we're moving trying to move more towards a subscription model. UM. We're releasing two a year. We're hoping two thousand nineteen to release three a year. UM. But right now we're moving into volume two, which we're hoping to release, um, you know, in the fall, probably in September October area somewhere in there, depending on how hard of a time Charles and I have wrangling all these contributors. UM. But that is going to be themed around public lands, and UM, I think it's a very important issue right now to discuss on very on several levels. UM. But we also expand expanding a little more into the international arena. So we had a lot of feedback from you know, people who ordered the magazine said, hey, are you gonna do stories besides the United States? And the answer to that is yes, UM, We're gonna start to scale that up a little bit in the next issue. Um, but in the context of public land, because we are blessed with, you know, a vast area of publicly the United States that most hardly anywhere else in the world has. And so what are the situations like in other parts of the world where that doesn't exist? What are the pros, what are the cons you know, what what can we take away from that as Americans with with this inheritance of a wealth of lands? Uh? And then what in what issues current issues, whether they're political or legislative or um, local, are are imperative right now? And what do we need to know about them? And then what if anything can we do about them? So you know, not only are we trying to present topics, but we wherever possible, we want to present sort of some action items on how people to be involved or you know, improve the situation in some way or another. Would you guys add anything else, Charles or Bread that's a clear no, thank it's teller. Well, Charles, I think you know and Charles is you know your your background is a little more related to the ecology side and helping us bridge the gap with as you said across the aisle, and so maybe talk a little bit about our strategy there. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the um one of the mini drivers that I think are kind of shaping issue too for us is thinking about storytellers and kind of staples in the hunting community that will further our ability to build bridges. And one of the things that we're gonna do is is obviously, you know, be connecting and working with some of these UM household names and the hunting and street because they have so much to share, They have so much history with public lands, they have so many, um you know, rich and smart perspectives that that will add a lot to the broader narratives. But we also want to include voices. We also will include voices and stories of people who have a hand and a foot in kind of different worlds, whether it's the confluence of outer recreation and hunting, or even surf culture and hunting, or food culture and hunting. UM and we want to tell stories that bring us back to the essence of modern huntsmen and bring us back to the essence of issue to public lands. But we also want to point out and really celebrate the diversity of people who all have a stake in public lands and who you know have hunting as this kind of common thread and hunting, as we've talked about on this podcast, is this pretty dynamic um you know, uh, activity, mindset, you know, approach and and we aim to to paint it and you know in an diversible light as it is. Um. So I'm really excited to kind of bring some maybe not atypical, but some just kind of some different voices to the table that'll that will make the whole issue that much more rich and holistic. Well, uh, that sounds it sounds like based off of what both of you share, that we've got a lot to look forward to with issue too. I can attest to the fact I have the first value here in my hands. It is a beautiful piece of work you guys, really just just the physical nature of it itself is beautiful. But then also the content I think you guys did a great job of of curating both thoughtful stories and articles and beautiful photography. I mean, it is definitely a um, I don't know, it's a pleasure to behold. It is something that really is that really well be done piece of media related to what we all love so much, which is hunting and garnering our food from wild places. So I'm glad that you guys are doing this, that you're sharing a different way to think about and communicate and um interact with hunting. I think it's it's needed, it's worthwhile, and uh, I've been enjoying it. So I'm looking forward what you guys have up next and bread. If people want to pick up a copy of volume one, or if they want to subscribe for future issues, or if they want to follow what you guys are doing online, where can they do all this stuff? Yep, you can go to our website at Modern Huntsman dot co CEO and to subscribe you can either just click on a little button right there in the center or it's modern husband dot co slash subscribe and uh, as always, people can check us out on Instagram at modern Huntsman um or or on our Facebook page terrific. Well we will link to all that stuff and UM, I really enjoyed this conversation guys, thank you for for taking the time to talk about this stuff. Thanks, thank you, and that will do it. Quick reminder if you haven't yet, we would love it if you could leave a rating or review on iTunes. It would be amazing if you could subscribe to this podcast there as well, and subscribe to the Wired Hunt YouTube channel. Lots coming up there. I just published my first piece of content documenting my two thousand seventeen hunting season, talking through the first hunt of the year, and later this week I'll have a new video coming out that talks about my plan and what happened there in late October when I went for my next strike after this deer called holy Field, So that might be interesting. You can check that out over on YouTube. Otherwise, just want to thank all of you for joining us for this podcast, for tuning in, for considering these different ideas and perspectives. I found it really interesting. I hope you did too. Until next time, I hope you'll stay Wired to Hunt. H