00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this is episode number forty nine Taylor Show. We're joined by Outdoor Life magazine editor in chief Andrew McKean, and we're discussing how to make a living in the outdoor industry. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. And today, as I mentioned earlier, we're going to be chatting about making a living in the outdoor industry. And I want to chat about this today for a couple of reasons. You know, First, I get dozens of emails and messages from readers and listeners who are looking for advice related to getting a job in this industry. And I've chatted with a whole lot more out there at shows and just on the streets about, you know, chasing that same dream. It's a dream that a lot of people have but don't necessarily know how to go after. So I want to, first and foremost today offer a resource and some helpful advice to those of you who are hoping to take that path. Now. In addition, to that too. This also seemed to be a good time to talk about this because the most recent issue of Outdoor Life magazine, which we talked about last week a little bit um, is focused on this very thing, very thing you know, They're how to issue, which is this month, is profiling six different people making a living in the outdoor industry. So we wanted to bring Outdoor Lifes editor in chief Andrew McKean on the show today to discuss these profiles and share his own story about how he's been able to make a living in this space too. So it's it's definitely gonna be an interesting conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Maybe I can share a little bit of my own experiences and hopefully Dan too. But Dan, what do you think about this whole this whole conversation. Well, it's it's a very interesting conversation because if you wanna, I don't know, I joined, if you want to say, the hunting industry in about two thousand and six, and and then then I've been a part of the you know, the video side of it. I've been a part of the product side of it, you know, the video sponsorship side, the products side of it, working for someone who has you know, tried to you know, establish a product in the hunting industry, and then also starting over the year ago, starting the nine Finger Chronicles. You know, I've kind of seen a lot of um, a lot of things come and gone see, seeing some things that the UM hunting industry and the good and bad things of the hunting hunting industry, as I'm sure you have as well, you know, and I have friends who are taxidermist and who also work for other hunting companies via like a media company or a product company. So there's a lot of things to talk about, and like always, we probably won't get through all of it. Yeah, that's very true, but I think you're spot on and that there's just it's a huge topic UM, and there's a lot of different avenues we can go down. But you've got some interesting experiences, and you know, I have some experience from you know, the media side of things, writing and doing the website and the podcast and all these different things I've done. But I'm I'm excited to talk to Andrew because he'll bring a whole another perspective, you know, the traditional print UM experience. And then he you know, has has done a whole number of different things over the years that I think will be really interesting. And then also given his position to outdoor life, Andrew has worked with a lot of UM important people at different hunting companies and different outdoor related companies with hunting, fishing, and all over the outdoors. So I think he'll be able to share some interesting insight that you and I haven't even got to have exposure to. But but I I want to talk about this because it's just one of those things that you hear so many people talk about. I would love to work on the hunting industry, I'd love to work in the fishing industry, or I'd love to work on the outdoor industry, but a lot of people just don't know, don't know where to start, or they think it's just this kind of far out dream that just isn't possible. UM, and I think that that is unfortunate. And as you know, Dan Um, you know, I'm a big proponent of you know, I really do believe that anything is possible if you set a goal and you put your mind to it and you're willing to put in a lot of hard work. I really think there are opportunities UM, And so if your dream is to get into the outdoor industry in some way, shape or form, I really think that you should chase that. I mean, today, there are so many new opportunities, especially with the Internet and everything that's how that's transformed everything across the board. There's a better opportunity than ever before to make a living doing something you love or related to something you love. And I just think that too many people settle. This is just my personal opinion, but I think a lot of people settle for just what's safe or what they've always done. They kind of keep their dream off to the side, as oh I wish, but they never actually take that leap. And so I hope that today we can encourage and inspire a few more people to chase whatever their dream might be, to take that leap and to give it a shot, because I think if more people did that, there'll be a lot of people that are They're a lot happier with what they do every day. And um, I think people can accomplish their goals if they actually believe in themselves, right, I agree, I a you know, and and on the flip side of that, you also have to you also have to you know, there's a bit of a route awakening in the hunting industry. It's a small industry almost to the point where almost it's one of those brotherhood, you know, old boys club type of scenarios, and that's solely changing. But but there is a bit of a route awakening that that can happen if you feel that it's just as easy as going out and saying, hey, I know how to shoot a big buck, put me on camera, I'll get sponsors, and I'll hunt, you know, with a cameraman until the day I die. You know that that doesn't happen. Very true, Very true. There's definitely there's a lot of people just like that that think it just happens easily, and that's definitely not gonna happen. Um. And that's whether it's the hunting industry and video or whether it's you know, any any part of the hunting outdoor industry, hunting, fishing, outdoors, camping, the whole deal. Um. You have to find a unique way to position yourself. You have to get your foot in the door. You have to work really really hard because there's a lot of people that do want this kind of thing. Um. So, so you're spot on there's definitely a reality check that sometimes we have to have to. Yep, that's fat. So I think with that said, you know, rather than beating around the bush too much, I really want to get Andrew on the phone and just start talking about this stuff because I think there's so much to cover, and I think a lot of people want this kind of information and our interests in this kind of help. So I'd say we let's use our time as best as possible today and just really pick Andrew's brain about what we can do to to better understand the outdoor industry and to to offer some helpful advice for people that want an opportunity in it. Let's do it, all right, Let's get Andrew on the phone. All right Here with us on the line is Andrew McKean from Outdoor Life. Welcome to the show, Andrew, Thanks Mark, it's nice to be here. Yeah, we ah, me and Dan. We're just talking about how excited we are to kind of pick your brain and hear your story given you know what, I think it's some pretty extensive experience in the outdoor industry that I know a lot of people will be interested to hear about um. And you know, Damn. I have shared just a little bit from our perspective of our background and what we've done in the outdoor industry to this point, but that really pals in comparison to to what you have, what the types of experiences you've had so far. So to kick things off, Andrew, for those that maybe aren't too familiar with you or your work, could you give us a brief background as to you know, what you do for Outdoor Life magazine right now, and then you know, we'll kind of go from there. Sure. Um, yeah, And in fact, it may be more useful to kind of start where I am now and work back. But what I do now is uh, well, I've got a couple of different titles, but I suppose the main one is I'm the editor in chief with Outdoor Life, which means I guess a lot of things and nothing at the same time. Um, I'm the big chief. I'm the main editor of the magazine as well as the website and really any content that we do. Uh you know, anymore, we don't think of Outdoor Life as a magazine as a brand. It's a media brand and so on. The captain of that ship, I decide what goes on all content channels and work with the staff of editors as well as a whole lot of contributors, designed team, and then a production team to make it available to our audience. I mentioned I have a couple of different hats of also the hunting editor of the magazine and the brand UM, so I coordinate all the hunting coverage that we have in the magazine, the hunting section, as well as hunting content online. So it's a big job. As I say to my kids, someday, it's a grown up job. I never really tend to have a grown up job, but all of a sudden, here I am. Yeah, it sounds like you're a very busy person. So so that's your grown up job that you have right now. And you mentioned it just a second ago. Um, But let's work backwards. Can you take us maybe back to the beginning and share this a little bit of insight into how you got here? And I think we'll probably have a lot of questions along the way because so many people are curious. They see someone who's in this industry in this great position, and they wonder, how did that happen? How do I get to be there? So Andrew, how did you get to be there. You know, it's a good question, and it's both a really easy answer and a kind of a logical progression. But I think one of the important things to keep in mind, and I have to keep it in mind a lot, is there was also a combination of sort of luck and serendipity and being nice to people along the way, and so you know, I think I'll probably sprinkle some of that in along the way because it was not it was not a linear tangent. I've never been a real linear person who said that's the job for me here, that's what I want do. I think a lot of us in this outdoors world that way. We really like being outside. We like hunting, the leg fishing, and and that's what we aspire to, not necessarily a title. So I started out that way, and I grew up on a farm in North Missouri. Um. It's funny. I you know a lot of our readers, a lot of our outdoor life audience will talk to me when I see him, and you can just communicate with them, and they they have such really resonant memories of outdoor life in their childhood. That's the magazine they grew up with. And it was for me too. Although I don't need to be a have a poor boy story, but we really were too poor to subscribe to magazine when I was a kid. I grew up on a just a dirt farm, and but I'd love to get my hair cut. My dad could shear sheep pretty well, but you couldn't cut hair. And so one of my great one of my great kind of getting away from the farm and going to talents to get my hair cut. And now it was always outdoor life at the barber shop. I really do have a really on and kind of um it's almost like a golden memory of being a little kid, and I just love to go get my hair cut and read outdoor Life. And you know, really from that time on, you know, just being aware that there was this whole world of content related to what I love to do, which was hunting fish, kind of woke me up a little bit. And so, you know, in high school, I was a pretty good writer, and my mom was actually high school English teacher as well as being a farm life, and it just always was important to be able to communicate in my family. And looking back on it, I never thought at all that I would do this job. I was figured, just going through high school and college, i'd probably be a teacher or something. But my dad said, this is probably coming from the the poverty side of our lives. He's like, you know, you should do one of three things. You should either learn how to weld and that was a fairly good weld to when I was in high school, but he said, yeah, he's always get a job as a welder, he said. Or you could be a teacher. You can always get a job as a teacher no matter where, he said. Or you should work for a newspaper, because every little town in America's got a paper, and now it's really the only one that spoke to me. I guess. So I got out of college and I really wanted to work for newspapers, and I did. I got hired by weeks after college over the phone. I went to college in Iowa, UM to work as the editor of this little, tiny county paper in eastern Montana, and they were so desperate for an editor they literally hired me over the phone. I thought they were calling me out for a job interview. When I said I could come, the publishers said, you know, I was trying to figure out how I could take time off of my part time job and get back. He's like, well, what do you want to go back for. I'm offering you the job, kid. So I got hiding over the phone, drove to Montana, which was the best thing in the world because even as a little kid, I dreamed about living in Montana, and here's the opportunity to do it. So that was really how I got into, you know, writing for a living, was working for a little newspapers. And I encourage any of your audience to actually think about that, because my dad is right. It's had a good time to be in. You know, I would say mid sized newspapers. Um. Online content has really taken away a lot of that, but small town newspapers still had a niche that can't be really filled very easily by social media or the internet. It's a great way to get started because you do it all as I did. I still in the days of film photography. I took all the pictures, I developed it all in the dark room. I wrote every story, and I was my own editor. And you get pretty good at that, or you get really bad at that and you lose your job. But I had an aptitude I had an aptitude for it, and I got I got really good at it, and I realized that's what I wanted to do. But being a twenty two year old Eastern Montana lessons that necessarily the best ship. Even though I fell in love hunting out here. To bring this full circle and there's more to talk about in between, but I live like fifty miles from where that first newspaper job was, and I came back here because of because of the hunting. Frankly, um, within twenty miles of town, I can hund six big game animals, all the birds I ever want. Um, It's it's a phenomenal place. I felt. There's a train uh I mentioned would probably be our inter up there, at least the audio flavor of a train coming through. Anyway, I went to Seattle after my stint and return with Montana and worked for bigger newspapers in the magazines. That's where I started free much righting, I realized I really had an interest in magazine writing because I just love the ability to match great design with fun words and a good story, and magazines really are that whole package to me. Um. I pretty quickly started realizing two things about Washington. First of all, it was a horrible place to be a hunter. Um she I lived outside of Seattle, and it does Boomtown and still is, you know, and it just was hard to find lonely places, which is really what I grew up on. It's still I'm pretty attracted to. The second thing I realized was it was a pretty good media market, and so I started selling lots of magazine stories to airline magazines and too especially publications. But I was itching in the worst way to get back to Montana, and I took a job some of your audience may be familiar with. This title was mostly based in the Northwest and the West Coast. The titles were called Fishing and Hunting News, and each state had when it was a little bit like the Game and Fish publication. Um they if the thing came out every two weeks. It was basically a tabloid newspaper, and it was I still have a lot of affection for the outfit that's gone out of business since then. But it was red meat and nightcrawlers. I mean, it was the most bait, hook and bullet publication you can imagine it. And I really I mentioned that because I think I think we're missing some of that in the media landscape anymore. I mean the real kind of bait shop rag where you could go and kind of find out what was biden when, what the game reports were looking like on a really kind of granular state by state basis. Anyway, I took that job. It was based in Seattle. What I told the guy who hired means the publisher, I would only take it if I had a chance of living back in Montana. And you gave me six months, and I think it's in about six weeks I was back in Montana. It's the best job I will ever have in my life. The publication came out every two weeks. But I was pretty good for my newspaper background. I could write pretty smart and pretty fast, and I could get the whole thing done in a week. So I would take the other week and I had to pick up in a fly ride in the shotgun. I wasn't married, no kids, and I would just go and walk about. I take a week and just go explore. And to me, that's the other thing I would encourage your audience. You know, you kind of make your own content. Um, you make your own stories, and you can get all the assignments in our world to right stories that you want. But there's nothing like just doing it with no expectation of ever selling a story or profiting from the experience. The experience itself is the value, and I look back on that now. That's really how I learned the last I became the editor of not only the Montana Edition, but I had a whole Utah wildming in Colorado, so I learned the Rockies and the whole in the Mountain West from the back of my pickup um. But that lifestyle last so long. I met a girl, I got married, I had twin boys, we bought a house, and I got fired. And about that order, um it was probably I wasn't quite thirty yet, but I was. I was looking at it. And when I got fired, I realized, Um, my life liken't working. I realized that most of my friends who are really good freelancers had a spouse who had a very good job, um and usually with benefits, and here I didn't have any of that. But along the way I had started freelance writing for Outdoor Life magazine, really being the Western correspondent. I don't know, you guys are probably too young to remember this by a few years, but Outdoor Life and Field and Stream both used to have regional sections during the back room magazine, and they were usually color coded or just on a different stock of paper. They were covering on a regional basis along with what I was doing for that fishing and hunting youth job, and so it was a pretty easy translation. I was still stern editor for Outdoor Life, and we had the regional pages and those a few features for him, and but here I was out of the job and really needed something, and the editor's Outdoor Life said, you know, we still don't want you to contribute as much as you can to us, but we don't have a staff position, which was fine with me. UM. But a lot of my schooling was in biology, and I had a lot of friends who worked for the State Game Agency. And I actually took the job in the town I live in now, which is Glasgow, Montana, working for Montana fash wild Life and Parks the State Game Agency UM in a lot of different capacities. It was probably the second or third best job I'll ever have. UM. I encouraged anybody who has the chance and the aptitude to work for a State Game Agency because to me, I think it actually filled out a lot of my professional experience to work for the managers and the wildlife resource and to understand, you know, where the funding comes from, what some of the constraints and opportunities are out there in terms of wildlife management. I think is the perspective that not enough people have, and I was delighted to have it. Ever because a private land biologist securing access. I worked as a youth fishing coordinator, as a higher education coordinator, and I did a lot of writing for the department, you know, news releases, a lot of education programs. It was a great job and it got me back in eastern Montana, which is a sportsman's paradise in a great place to raise kids. My kids were young, and since then he has had a third kid, um, and they're going to probably have to call me out of this town in the box. So I still live here, um, but a little by little. As I worked for the department, I was actually getting more and more and more work from outdoor life, and so I kind of had twin jobs for a while. After a while, I realized it wasn't fair to the state to keep doing the amount of freelance work I was doing, but I also was getting a little bit rest of working for a state agency. I'm not very good bureaucrat and so, um, there was something that happened. I told you there was some serendipity that occurs in any career, and mine was it was awful, um, but it was good. Your you guys will probably remember this. I know your audience will uh Sellon named Jim Zumble had been the long time hunting editor of Outdoor Life, um and and he was doing more and more work on television and for other folks as well. Well. I don't know if you remember his great unfortunate momentum, but he had blogged that a RS that modern sporting rifles should have had no place in the field and should be banned by state game agencies. And his point was, I think we've talked and laughed and pride about this a lot since that happened. I think his point was that people need to be aware of the perception among the non sporting public that some of these implements have and just be a little bit more careful with kind of the imagery of it. Well, he didn't write it that way. What your vote was that they should be banned. Did you guys know that's the third rail of what we do. We're not gonna talk about banning any type of legitimate sporting arms or implement in the field. He was fired about it and about as much time to taking me tell the story, and as the as the editor in chief set at the time, this this thanks for everybody involved except for you McKean, and I took Jim's job. So that's how I came on board as the staff or for Outdoor Life. And like I said, Jim, I had good friends. We laugh about it now. It was awful, but um, it was great for me. So I became a staff member for Outdoor Life. And what that means is I was actually employee of the magazine that's the brand. Um. One of my conditions for it, and I didn't have to make the argument too hard, was look, the Hunting editor doesn't and shouldn't live in New York City, where the magazine is published and where the offices are the main offices. So I made the case that I thought I should be in the field, and what better place than where I currently lived, which, as I mentioned, is kind of a sports in paradise at eastern Montana. We's got unbelievable elkin insoury river breaks, We've got great white tails on the Milk River. We've got great mule deer, we've got big point hunt moves come down from Canada pretty frequently here, and and it's it's it's phenomenal. Um. The folks who hired An agreed, and so I had a staff job and lived in the field, which really is the great goal of any outdoor writer is to be employed. It was, you know, a permanent job, but to get to live in the field. And so I really found myself backing my lucky stars, and I still do every day. So from there I basically worked my lamps and mast head. Um. And now here I am. I'm still hiding edit here, but I'm also in charge of brand from Glasgow, Montea. Yeah, I think I take away. I'm taking a couple of things away from this, Andrew. Number one, I think Dan and I are both very jealous of where you live. Let's let's put that right up there, because that sounds incredible. Eastern Montana is, like you've said, an unbelievable sportsman's paradise, and we would both love to experience something like that, So that though out of the way, I think something I know is here is you you have this position now that's you know, this incredible job that a lot of people would aspire towards. But I think you started somewhere much different from that, and you kind of took advantage of different opportunities along the way to work your way up that ladder. But like you mentioned, serendipity definitely plays apart. So I think there's something to be said about, you know, maybe not being able to get that dream job right off the bat, but getting your foot in the door and then taking advantage of opportunities as you go along the way. That's something that I think i've you know, seen in my own personal life and trajectory, and it seems that certainly was the case for you. Um But for you, if you were to look back at your career path, what do you think was really the key to your success? If you had to pin it down on one or two things that you think, you know, really helped you get to where you are now and make a living doing something you love, what would you say those one or two most important things were, you know? I ask a good question. First of all, I think hankers too. I really think growing up on a farm, a Midwestern farm, was the essence of who I am. I mean, I'm a rural person. Um. I grew up in a place where I mean, wildlife was a condition of the landscape, and just as a place where I wasn't constrained by asking permission from anybody to just go learning wrong and explore an adventure. Uh. You know some my wild places it's the Midwest, but I mean there are some really wild places in North Missouri, and and just to explore moment I really made me passionate about the outdoors. The second thing I would say is um so a little harder to articulate, but it's the authenticity. So I love to hunt the fish. Um. I would be doing that regardless of whether I had this job, And I think that's important to keep in mind. I see a lot of people who aspire to what do, who want to just automatically and immediately start writing about it and expressing themselves in media. That's great, and that's the way to make a living, for sure, But I feel pretty strongly that you have to just go where there's no camera, where there's no pen and paper or expectation that you're going to produce a story and just go immerse yourself in the experience. And the more of that you can do, the more authentic your knowledge is going to be, so that when you do right or broadcast or create content, it's coming from the place of experience and not second hand. I think that's really important. I see an awful lot of people who know way more than I do about um tree stand hunting or about food plots, but you put them in empty landscape of the Missouri or brakes may have no idea how to start hunting. Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense now since you since you bring this up, and I want to talk about a hold. You know all the different opportunities within the outdoor industry, but you you mentioned media, which of course is where you have the most experience. For that guy or girl out there who who wants to make a living in the outdoor industry from a media standpoint, you mentioned first step is immersed yourself in the actual activity itself. But what would you recommend is that next step for a guy who wants to write, or wants to film, or wants to do something anything. On the media side, Um, what would you What would you say? Is the next thing these people need to be thinking about as they start taking these first steps into the industry, I would say, And there's there's probably two points. So I think the mainline though, is to express yourself well, whether you're doing it on camera or on the written or in the written word, to be able to to translate that authentic experience into something that universally appealing and accessible to an audience is really key. So just the ability to to articulate yourself is really important. Ah, I don't think it's more important than the authenticity, but I don't think it's less important, because you can have all of the authentic experiences you want, but if you can't articulate them, then you're not a communicator. The other standpoint, you can be a great communicator, but if you don't have that basis of experience, then you don't want anything to say. So really, I can give twin sides of the same issue, and I think that's what I look for when I look for your contributors and for people who I want to have right for me, I want them to have most of those things who wanted to have authentic experiences told well, yeah, well that that is something that it's so it sounds so simple, but at the same time, it's something that it takes a lot more than it sounds like to really put together. So a couple more questions than taking a step back about you specifically, and then I want to dive into a little bit more about the recent outdoor life issue and the different opportunities people might have in the industry. Back to you, what would you say, you know, given your wide variety of experiences now in the industry, both from working from a game agency to working now for outdoor Life and everything between, what do you think is your favorite thing about working in the outdoor industry? And then on the other hand, what would you say is the worst thing about working in this industry? Oh, that's a good question. I think the best thing is our responsibility to the resource. And I know that sounds pretty kind of really and maybe a little bit sappy, but it is all we have at the end of the day, well, writing and communicating about a perishable It's a renewable resource, but it's a fragile resource. And that I mean that is the wildlife resources of America. And you know, we got here on the backs of people who put an awful lot of themselves, um, sweat and blood and time into ensuring that we've got honorable populations. I think we tend to lose track of that every now and then. You know, we take for granted what we love to go pursue without really thinking about what we need to do to give back to the resource as well. That's always in the back of my mind when I'm putting down an issue, our conservation obligation. You know, it can sound medicitional. It can sound sort of like a blah blah blah, you know, like eat your vegetables. But it doesn't have to be that way. You know, when you start to strip away, you know kind of the layers of jeez, why can we hunt turkeys? And how do we hunt turkeys? And where does our license money go? I mean, it's still a very lively and alive obligation that we have. The worst thing is the commercialism of it. I mean, the sound is pretty contradictory. You know, here we are here, we are talking about making a living in the outdoors. Don't forget the first danger of our wildlife resources century ago, were the people who literally made their money off of the resource by market and I think we need to keep in mind that UM kind of goes back to that first statement. We have an obligation to the resource not to exploit it, and I get I worry just a little bit sometimes that we go over the edge in terms of exploiting the wildlife resource with just commercializing it and making an industry out of something that's a public resource and it really has to be carefully managed by the public. It's a very fine line, isn't it. Yeah, it is, but but it's doable. I mean, I think as long as we're aware of that line, UM, that's half the battle. So true. I think that I think the two things you mentioned right there are two of the things that have been equally important to me too. Is really the care and the remembering how important how fragile resources, And like you said, I feel like it's an obligation of anyone working within this space too to realize, Hey, we are making a living related to this, and therefore it's definitely rble obligation to make sure we're giving back to that UM and and allowing that to be an opportunity there that's there for people for for years and years to come, are grandchildren children. Um. I like this line of questioning though, of the pros and the cons of the outdoor industry because I think a lot of people look at this from the outside and say, wow, that's that's the dream. But there there are some harsh real there are. Like any job, right, there are downsides, and you mentioned one of them there Andrew. Um. But I'm curious to get Dan. I'd love to hear your perspective, Dan, because you've got to work in the outdoor industry a little bit from another side. You've worked for a company producing a hunting product. Um. So from your standpoint, Dan, real quick, can you share what you think your favorite part of being involved in the industry, whether it's the media or the product side, and then your favorite and your least favorite thing? Well from the product side, Um, you know, it's almost like another job. You know, you have a you have a product, you gotta get it sold. So as as I was the vice president of sales and marketing, and in that role, your job is to make money selling the product. So you know, you get you get a talk with Cabela's and Bass Pro shops and and all the other big box stores or even further further than that, the dealers and uh and and that, and that's cool, And a lot of people don't really associate that, even though it is, they don't really associate that as being in the hunting industry because it's really just another job. You know, it didn't necessarily allow me to hunt or fish more than I already did. It just it was a job for a company that marketed itself in the hunting industry. So you know, the positives were you know, I got to I got to meet a lot of interesting people and um and in a way help I guess, I guess what I'm trying to stay here is it's it's like who you know. I don't want to say it's all about who you know, But you get to meet a lot of people. And because you get a lot of meet meet a lot of people, there are opportunities there um that present at themselves and then it's up to you to take advantage of them or not. UM that that's that's that's from a product side. And as you know, I also did um DVDs. You know, I was in a DVD for about eight years and we did a web show as well, and uh, you know, just just again I come back to the people, like I got to meet a lot of great people, um who you know, we're very concerned about the resource, you know, just like Andrew said, and I mean and just and just being able to capture my moments for the rest of my life and being able to show them to my kids and grandkids. Like here, here's the very first dough I ever shot. You know, it was caught on camera. Or here's a big buck that I shot, or here's the big buck that I missed. You know, those kind of experiences, you know, are are captured on film, and uh that that's kind of neat as well. Definitely, definitely, Now what would you say would be a potential downside of your experience though, I'll tell you what the hunting industry is is tricky, and it has its positives and its negatives. And I think one of the negatives is it it's it has become very commercialized, just like any other just like any other industry, you know, like sports related or whatnot. But you know, it's I don't know, I see a lot of negativity in the and you know, it's it's it's very hard to explain unless you've been there and been able to observe it yourself. But you know, people jumping back and forth saying, you know, you know, I use this product or I use that product, and not really caring at all about the animal that they're hunting. They're doing it because it makes them a dollar at the end of the day, and they're not concerned about the animals life that they're taking. And that just kind of rubs me the wrong way. Not showing any emotion to taking a life and looking at the dollar sign. That that drives me. You know, that drives me crazy a bit. Yeah, I think you and me both. That's definitely one of the things that as the industry has grown and the media continues to grow, there's definitely that that happens. Um and we've talked about that a lot in the past. Um really quick before I jumped back to Andrew. One other from my perspective, one thing I found that I think people should keep in mind when it comes to working the outdoor industry is great. The thing that we all dream about is you join up, you join the outdoor industry, and you get to hunt and fish all the time. And that's what you love to do, and yes, you know, in some cases you'll get to do that more often. Um. But on the on the other side, the flip side, there's the risk of it becomeing a job and instead of being that passion that you did to get you away from the job, it becomes the job. I've been fortunate so far that I still, you know, absolutely love one. Every time I get to be in the outdoors hunting and fishing and all those things, I love it, and I really am very appreciative of the opportunity to be able to do that and make a living related to it. But at times I have, you know, I have experienced the negatives of that being coming in the form of a lot of stress. I get a lot more stress when it comes to my hunting and fishing hunting adventures really, UM than I ever used to. And it's not something necessarily that. It's like when I was eighteen and I used to go out and hunt and I'd sit and just relax and enjoy it and not be too worried about it. And now when I'm out there, I'm working, and I feel the pressure of working and the pressure to produce UM. And that's something that's very different. Is is something that I think has to be considered. Um. And just if you're in the industry and whatever form, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, you know, as you mentioned Dan, not just for the paycheck, but but enjoy what you're doing and be passionate about it. Um. And and maybe don't let that stress get too as much as as it easily can be sometimes. So and how long did it take you Mark to get from where you started to where you are today. It's been a long time. It's been five, six, six, seven years now. So it's you know, if nothing comes easy, nothing comes real quick. Yeah. Absolutely, And the work that has to be done, you gotta work your way up. Yeah. And Andrew's story is is even further evidence of that, you know, starting from where you did Andrew to where you are now. UM. Now back to you. Enough about us, We're we're kind of boring. I really want to be able to talk to you Andrew. UM. You know, in the most recent issue of Outdoor Life, your team profiled six different people making a living in the outdoor industry. And we've talked a lot so far about the media side of things. UM. And you know, we we talked last week about the fact that I had the opportunity to be featuring the issue two, which is incredible and I'm very appreciative of um. But I'd love to hear a little bit from you Andrew on you know who those other people were that you got to profile, and maybe you can speak to a little bit of the different opportunity reason that there are in the outdoor industry, because I think a lot of folks jumped to the media because they see that all the time, but there are a lot of different ways people can get their foot in the door in the hunting and fishing industry. Can you speak to that a little bit and maybe about what you learned from putting this issue together. Sure. No, the first thing I want to say is uh As. I'm sure everybody knows you are the cover model for the April issue and well the thing that the thing that proved to me is that we still do have UH demographic success among the twelve and fourteen year old girl. So, I mean it was it was kind of a win win, you know, I liked I like the audience. Thank you very much for ripping him right on. That's good, well played. Yeah, that you know, it was it was a really fun package to put together and it has a little bit of a history to it. Um. You know, one of the things that Outdoor Life has always delivered is this really gritty, essential how to how to do something? Really from that, you know, you go to heck to the old nineteen thirties, nineteen forties, nineteen seventies issues, there's just there's a lot of illustrations like, oh, that's how to build a canoe where that's how to you know, keeping with the community. That's how to make a silent battle stroke at j stroke. It's it's cool. So that's really part of our d n as is how to d I Y ethics. What we wanted to do with the how to issue this year was to really divide it into two halves, and one is how to save money in the outdoors and really kind of with a budget conscious scheme. And then there's how to make money in the outdoors And really that's where you came in. And what we wanted to do is profile a number of people who are making a living in either expected or unexpected ways. And so yeah, I'll talk about the people we profiled first and then I think it's important to talk about the people who didn't profile, but who we thought about it, because it really gets to be I think broader picture of of this outdoor into treacause it's actually it's it's bigger than you think on the surface. Once you start scratching down, it's like, oh yeah, that's part of the ONDOI industry. But we profiled you, and what we really wanted to do. I think on the cover we called you that they look here the new media dude. Um, you know somebody who's sort of making content, homemade content, I would say, and I think what you do is brilliant, and I think it's a really aspirational look at somebody who has sort of made their own living in life. We also, in fact, I had to open up the magazine to make sure I didn't leave anybody out. To your point of kind of going from the expected, uh through the unexpected. We also profiled another outdoor writer, Ron S. Boehmer, who's you know, pretty high profile, pretty well known name in as a freelancer for a number of different titles. We initially thought about it would be fun to have Ron interview himself excuse me, just as kind of a different sort of vibe to it. But then when we got into it, just a straight ahead profile was and and I think Ron's perspective is really key because he brings up a little of what you just mentioned, is that sort of the good and the bad, the yet in the end of the outdoor world, it's full opportunities. It's full of, um, you know, ways to enable you to do what you love, and that is hunting fish. More. The other side of it is it's a job and you've got deadlines and you've got is Ron put it, you know, imagine yourself going on a different hunt every week with a different firearm that you don't know and a camera over your shoulder expecting you to produce. It's not necessarily a stress free proposition. And I think he articulated that pretty well. It's like, at the end of the day, it's not recreational, it's employment and that comes with a certain side of expectation. Um. We also profiled Accedent. This is a really fun one. We've profiled a kid here in my account of Glasgow who works with his dad in the local sporting good store D and G Sports and Western. If you're ever in Glasgow, you've got to stop in. And that's one of the best mule deer and white tail trophy displays you've ever seen. Um. But it's just it's a great kind of dust country sporting good stores, an independent sporting good store, not part of the big box franchise or anything like that. What I wanted to do was was profiled Sam Sam Moorehouse is his name is somebody who sees the world from behind the gun counter and what is you know, what's his job? Like, you know, the pros and the cons and if he described it, um, the pros are he gets to talk to people, He gets to um talk about what he loves, which is guns and hunting. The downside is he's talking about guns hunting. He's not actually hiding out there with guns. So you know there's a little bit of that, I guess, order of remove from actually doing what he loves to now talking about it and selling it. And that's a little bit about what damn was talking about. UM. We also we profiled an outfitter, um actually another Montana fellow. This guy is a public land backcountry elk outfitter in western Montana. Name is William Wilcox and really just about what it takes to be an outfitter, and I think his perspective was really honest, and that was basically, here's how much money I make a year, but here's how much I spent. You're not going to get rich doing this, and there's a lot of downside. One of your horses get sick, but one of your guides can't make it, or you've got a lousy cook, you're screwed, you know. And you've got a lot of people counting on each part of that machine to work, and if one part doesn't, um, you've got a problem. The second thing is how do you create a customer base. You think about a lot of outfitters, Um, they're charging money for an opportunity, but they're also having to produce. Uh. And so we've got a lot of stress on us as individuals. They've got a lot of stress on them as business folks because a lot of their businesses repeat customers. And Lane talks a little bit about that is you better make somebody happy, because um, if they leave happy, they're going to tell a couple of people. If they leave mad, they're gonna tell everybody. Uh. We also profiled Kirsty Pike who's the lady in the outdoor industry. She makes the preal sign of finding clothes for women. You really talked to her about the origin story of that business and kind of what it takes to run a niche business in this outdoor industry. And then lastly we talked to I think it was last week, we talked to a girl, a lady in the northeast two runs Um. She's the head boat made on a on a fishing boat. It's one of these big party boats that takes upwards of thirty anglers out offshore and everybody catches fish and she's got a bait hooks and make sure that people are playing fish right and netting fish, and then she's filing fish and packaging them and she does it three times a day. It is a hard working job. And I think her profile really brought that up is like she's hopping. I mean, is there's not a quiet momentum on all of these trips, and there's a lot of people who are counting on her abilities and she loves every minute of it. That's awesome. So that was sort of I guess the landscape we covered in terms of people who are making a living of the outdoors. But as I said, you know, you start to scratch around. You know, it's a hotel Maids and let's call it Aberdeen, South Dakota in October during best season are really making a living on the outdoors and the outdoors industry. Um, there are folks like you know, the folks who are working the gun counter at Walmart or working this, you know, stopping sporting bitch shells. Um. There are the people who are designing turkey calls in their basement with the hopes of making it big. So it's a pretty wide and diverse field when you when you really start thinking about it. With the air intention work just to profile a few people who you might think about and who you might not think about it tell their stories. I really loved how you guys did that too. Now you mentioned though, the people that you didn't feature, Um, you know, was there any more that you could share with us in regards to why you didn't cover any of the you know, maybe things like TV show hosts or other well known aspects of the hunting industry or hunting fishing industry. There were two reasons. Um, the most well known people we didn't think would be as candid with us as we wanted. And the reason is they don't really have anything to gain by telling the story. They tell it every day, and we really wanted people who could sort of strip away the nonsense and say here's what's great about my job and here's web sucks. And it was great. We we we really did want that perspective because we wanted to deliver I think a pretty honest, sixty um perspective on it. There were other people, actually, um there was there's a whole cohort of people in Ontario who did earthworms at night for the h fishing bait trade. We thought that would be such a cool profile, and it turned out it was such a cool profile. We're actually profiles in their in their May issue. We built a whole feature around them. So those are people who were kind of left in the on the cutting room floor, but we're like, you know, there's actually a bigger story here to tell. Um she Some other people we thought about were a dog gun, dog breeders, you know, people who run kennels. Those are folks who make a living in the outdoors. I think their perspective is pretty interesting um to people who are well like flats guides. You know, somebody who works really, really hard, maybe for three months out of the year and then their business drives up, and really talking about what they do to supplement their income. But we just felt well and we were constrained by pages. Uh, you in the digital realm will forget about having pages. There are finite resources. They don't grow on I guess they do grow on trees. But so we basically ran how to room to tell all those stories. So you did profile sex people. It sounds like you, you you know, examine a number of other opportunities as well. Was there anything that you or your team noticed that was consistent across all these people who have quote unquote been able to make it in this industry? Um, and maybe that's from these six people or you know, across other people you've talked to or have known. Is there any consistency between those people that can make it in in the hunting and fishing industry? There there is want to it. Maybe I'm not sure that they articulated as so much as I sent it from kind of unifying theme and that is something that Dan talked about earlier. This is an industry of relationships and people and it's actually what attracted me to it initially and really keeps my affection going for this industry, it's it's really a bunch of friends who are united by kind of a common purpose. People who may work for totally different brands or in totally different segments of the industry, but it's it's that relationship. With a lot of the people we talked to who we profiled also brought up that relationship. So the gun store a clerk loves his job because he gets to interact with people in this community all the time and talk hunting and fishing and get paid for it. Um that was actually the same as the outfitter. You know, he was talking about how word of mouth and referrals is a big part of this business. But he's doing it because he loves people. He likes to be with people and and be with him in these really memorable moments, which is you know, having their first elk and really aspirational landscapes. So it's that kind of people orientation. I think that really brings people together and keeps them in the industry. But Dan mentioned though that's changing a little bit if it gets more corporate, there's more sort of there's more commercialism that creeps into it. I'm seeing just not a personal basis, relationship basis of the industry did a little bit more deluded. Interesting. So let's kind of we're getting here close on time, so I want to close things out here on a little bit more of a tactical basis, you know. For for those people listening today, they've they've heard your story, They've heard a little bit from Dana and I in the past, and a little bit today. We've talked about the highs and the lows, and about some of the different options out there. There's met like you mentioned, very wide space. There's everything from being on the media side to working for a company towards working as a guide. There's lots and lots of options. Um, but what about how This is a little bit difficult because there's a lot of different avenues that you know, someone could go into. But is there any is there any starting point for someone you know how making the decision of how to get involved in the industry. Do you have any advice for someone when it comes to making the decisions should I get in the industry or should it not? Yeah? I mean I think if in any time you can marry what you love to do with what you need to do make a living, you should do it. I mean, whether that's you know, as a professional sports athlete, or whether it's working in the outdoors. I think the upsides exceed the downside. So I encourage anybody who wants to compare the two to do it, but I I would encourage him to do it with realistic expectations. This is not an industry where you're going to be uh celebrity or a millionaire overnight. You're just gonna take a lot of work, which kind of comes to your point of how do you get started? What I'll talk about is on the content side, because that's what I'm most Whether you're with I would say just start, start somewhere, whether it is approaching your local newspaper to write an outdoors column, even for free, do it. The more you do it, the better you're going to get at it. And if somebody comes to me just I've got a great idea for a story, the first aglements to be to say, well, have you've written anything before? How? How how do I know that you can actually do it? So do it, um, get a portfolio, get a track record of it, whether if you know, if you want to have a television show, start filming yourself, start telling stories on camera. Um, just do it. Whether or not you can sell it or whether there's a market flo it doesn't matter. And to me, that goes back to that that authenticity. If this is something that burns hot inside you, just do it. It's easy to start a blog, to start a blog, just do it, um. And in that way, you can refine your voice, you can figure out if you do have anything to say or not, you can figure out how to attract and keep an audience. And I mean those are all say that aren't critical to making more than in this space. Absolutely, I think that is. That's so true, And it's funny you mentioned that because that's the exact you know. I I get a lot of people asking that question to me, and probably far fewer than you do, but I have that question a decent number of times. And my advice always is that exact thing. Just start. You have to start doing it, experiencing it, trying your hand at it, putting yourself out there, and you know you'll learn, you'll grow and eventually as you meet people and opportunities will come your way. UM. And I think another piece that I'll just I'll kind of ads an addendum to that. It's important to start, but it's also important to start believing that you can do it. And I think unfortunately a lot of people. You mentioned the fact that you have to you have to go into these types of things with the realistic set of expectations. Agree with that, But then I also think that you also need to have the realistic expectation that it's possible too. If you're willing to put your put the work in, if you're willing to do the things, the tough things that have to be done, if you're willing to sacrifice, you can chase those dreams. You can make it happen. It's not going to be easy, it might not go the way you think it's going to go. You might take a totally different path than you ever imagined. Um, But I would just encourage everyone listening. Just like you said, Andrew, if this is what burns in your chest, if you love this stuff, if you wake up every morning dreaming about this, chase that dream, go for it, and don't let anyone tell you that it's not possible. Don't let anyone say that. Ela a kid from you know, small town Iowa could never do that, Um, or someone from you know, southern Florida that I'll never be able to do that. You can do it. There's been so many examples of people. I guess just like your story Andrew, Um. You know mentioned where you started northern Missouri on a dirt floor farm. Um. Anyone can can make these types of things happen if you really put your mind to it. I think I just want to UM remind us all to to have that belief in ourselves, because I think unfortunate there's a lot of people that don't have someone telling them that they believe in you. And I believe in everyone out there listening that that really, if this is your dream, you can do that. So that's my little a thirty second pep talk for the day. I guess I get a little carried away, but real quick before we let you go, Andrew, Dan, you've been a little quiet. Do you have any other questions for Andrew before we wrap this up? No? I mean, like like all of our guests, I just love listening to different people tell their story different perspectives. You know. He he was Um in his journey through the hunting industry to where he is now. And you know, if anything, it's it's motivated me to continue to do what I do, you know, with the Nine Finger Chronicles and and with this podcast. And you know, the river runs wild. I don't know that meaning like the path people take it. You can't you can't really plan for it in certain aspects and you just gotta let it happen and it will lead you to where it needs to lead you. So true, so true. So, Andrew, I want to be respectful of your time, Um, but I really appreciate you spending you know this last forty five minutes with us. Are so talking about your story and about the most recent issue. Um. Now, as I understand it, and as I've seen, the current April issue of Outdoor Life is available on news stands and you know, in a lot of people's mailboxes. So if you don't already have the issue, I definitely encourage you to check it out. And um, you know they tell me I have a face for radio. But go ahead and take a look at the cover if let's see what you think. UM, But question for you, Andrew, at any point, well, any part of the future that we just talked about is that ever gonna be available online. Yeah, it certainly will. In fact, we will break it into pieces and probably each will have its own appearance online. Um, so you can go to outdoor life dot com probably starting within about a week or ten days, and you can start to see need some of these profiles, see some of the money saving hacks if we were profiling, and I think even see your picture, which you know, thank goodness for photoshop, but you know, I think you ended up okay. They do a good job of really fixing things up, and stay tuned for Mark's next cover, which is Team Bot magazine. Of the last thing I'll say, and that is it kind of cheers off what you were just saying about just believing in it. And the other thing is this, this can seem like a job. I mean, you know, I I love my job and I want to be able to always keep saying that, even though you know, I'm not out in the field nearly as much as I used to be. Your wish I was. You know, there's a lot of budgets and staff issues and um, just reacting to two things as uh as the boss does. But every time I get down in the dumps, like holy smokes. This is a high stress job. I'm reminded of something. Actually, he was my boss when I worked with Montana Fish, Wilife and Parks. You know, in that job, you're there's a lot of bureaucracy. You're really a public servant, and so there can be you know, you can get a lot of interesting perspectives and it's easy to get out of the doubts. And every now and then he would just say, can you believe what we're doing? What we get to do. We get to help manage Montana's wildlife. And the least I mentioned that is I think that's also sort of the counterpoint to dream about it and believe in yourself, and that is, look at what you can do. Um, you can actually turn what you love to do and do a living. And to me, that's the goal of anybody, It should be the goal of any absolutely. I think that is a perfect spot for us to leave this this episode too, So Andrew, I'll make sure to include links in our show notes to outdoor life dot com and Facebook and all the different places that our listeners can can check back on it and maybe see some parts of the story that we talked about today and Um, finally, just want to say thank you so much. We really appreciate you joining us. Yeah, this is a lot of fun. Thanks for the opportunity. Absolutely Hopefully we'll will chat again soon. Okay, thanks, all right, Well that is going to do it for us today on the podcast, and for show notes from this episode, all the links from everything we talked about today, please visit wire two hunt dot com slash episode forty nine and if you enjoy the show, please take a second to leave a rating or review for us on iTunes. We really appreciate it, and it helps other people find out about the Wired Hunt podcast, which is definitely something that's helpful, so thank you in advance. Also, if you're not yet subscribed to the podcast on your phone or tablet, I'd highly recommend to do that. It allows you to get each week's episode automatically download to your device and it makes it a lot easier to consume the podcast, so definitely look at subscribing on iTunes, on the podcast app, or with Stitcher or whatever podcasting app you prefer. Also, we'd like to thank our partners who have stepped up to help make the Wire to Hunt podcast possible, so big thank you. Too, sick of gear, Trophy, Ridge bear Archery, redneck blinds on Terra maps, Hunts, soft Lacrosse boots, and the white Tail Institute of North America. And finally, thank you to all of you for being here with us today. I hope you found this episode help and maybe even inspirational. But if you're looking to chase the dream of making a living in the outdoors, I'd like to offer one more piece of advice, never ever give up. Thanks again, folks, As always, stay wired Ton