00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan and Tan the show. I'm joined by the one and only Dan Johnson of the Nine Finger Chronicles to explore the latest lessons that we've learned in our personal journeys raising kids to enjoy and explore the outdoors. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light. Like I mentioned at the top, we're talking kids today, and joining me to talk about kids is my buddy and longtime co host of the podcast in those early years, Dan Johnson. And in those first few years when me and Dan were talking every week frequently stories of his kids, and eventually my kids popped up on the podcast, and uh, sometimes we were met with complaints about that, people said, stop talking about kids, just talk about dear. But guess what, folks, We're still talking about kids because our children. And I'm guessing for those of you who are parents, your children are a very important part of your hunting life, of your outdoor life, fishing, whatever outside activities you love. I'm guessing you love or at least you want your children to love getting involved with those two and that's been something that's been on my mind a lot. I know it's been on Dan's mind and something we wanted to share with you guys. Here Again, we've talked about it in previous episodes over the past handful of years, but now with kids that are on a wide spectrum of ages. I've got boys that are two and four, Dan has a daughter who's older, and two younger boys. UM, we've got some more life experience to share and we wanted to share that with you. By no means every experts, By no means do we have this figured out. This is merely a here's where we're at, Here's what we're struggling with. Here's what we're learning, Here's what's working, Here's what's not. Here's what we're hoping to see happen in the future. Uh, as we try to raise these kids to be comfortable in the outdoors and to love the outdoors and to learn to hunt and fish and camp and climb and hike or whatever it is. Um, you know, my hope has always been that my children can can grow to love these wild places and wild things the way I have, and that they can help enrich their lives the way those things have done that for me. So today that's what we're gonna talk about. And it's particularly relevant for another reason too, because my pale and colleagues Steve Ronella, just released a book on this very topic on May three. The books called Outdoor Kids in an Inside World, Getting your family out of the house and radically engaged with nature. And I've just started reading the book myself, so I can't give you the full review personally, but knowing it's from Steve, I know it's gonna be good. I know it's gonna be interesting, and uh, I imagine there's a lot that I can learn from it too. So check that book out now if you're interested more on this topic, if you have kids yourself, or if you're wanting to have kids in the future and you're struggling to think about how do we get these kids outside and off their phones and off of the TV and off of Instagram or TikTok or whatever belogning it is these days. Uh, that book and hopefully this conversation can be helpful starting points. So well that's said, let's get to my chat with Dan we're talking kids, we're talking the outdoors. We've got some funny stories, we've got some lessons learned, and a little bit everything else in between. Thanks for tuning in. Here we go all right with me. I've got the one and only Daniel nine Fingers Madman, Big Beard Johnson. What if? What if I changed my middle name to nine fingers? Honestly, I think that most people would really be supportive of that. It basically it basically is, don't you feel like I mean, most people, if most people asked you, oh, what do you what's your middle name? I think a lot of people would say it might be nine fingers might I guess I've never really thought of it until just now, which is crazy because I think about a lot of random things. But like the fact that someone's actual middle name is like a description of their body. Do you remember, Yeah, do you remember the Like? There's a number of like pro sports players that have done this, Like Chad Johnson was an NFL wide receiver and he changed his name to his number. He became September. Yeah, that could be like, or it could be Mark, because right now you're still rocking the mustache, right yes, there, Mark mustache Kenyan. See it's too fresh, like the mustaches not become iconic enough for me. So people people wouldn't see that and immediately think, oh, Mark Kenyon. I think it's only when, only when your middle name is is such a standing for who you are as a person, only then can you make that switch. So so in your case, nine fingers, I mean you really are that Chad Johnson of the hunting world. Um, you could totally do that. Oh man, I love I love that reference. I'm I'm the Ocho Sinko of the of the hunting industry. Nice. Yeah, man, I think that's just stick. What is your real middle name? David David Okay, Mark, David Mark, David Kenyon. That sounds like you're an elitist. You sound you sound like, oh okay, Well, then what's yours? Keith? You sound like a freaking hillbilly. Yeah, exactly exactly, and that's correct. Like I'm Daniel Keith Johnson and I'm a Mack David Kenyon. We were we were named appropriately exactly exactly. Are you? I'm good man? How are you good? I'm glad we're doing this. It's been too I know, so how many people I've already shut this episode off. I'm hoping. I'm hoping most because I always like to listen to the air. I like to do these podcasts with zero pressure and zero inhibitions, knowing that there's no audience so zero so we can really talk about anything we want. These are really the best. So how's your sex life lately? Don't answer that question question, I was getting ready to I was getting ready to muffs. Yeah, exactly, in all seriousness. Uh, what is new other than that? Anything? Just just work, man, you know, it's Uh, it's crazy. I was having this conversation with a guy the other day who he's not like full time into hunting. He does it kind of as a side gig. And uh, and I was just like, man, I thought I was gonna be spending a lot more time outside and doing all this, you know, like obviously during the hunting season. I can use the excuse, Hey, I'm in you know, I do this for a living, so I can get out and hunt. But like I want to go out and maybe turkey hunt more, or I want to go out and look for mushrooms or do more scouting instead, I'm I spend a lot of time in front of a computer. Especially this week and the rest of this month will be we're getting ready to launch a new website and so, uh, it's it's just like it's back to the same kind of work that I was doing before I I got laid off, but I'm doing it for myself now. I guess which is which is better? But still I'm not spending that out. I'd time, like, I want to which one of your bosses is more annoying, the old boss or the new one. Uh? Definitely me, Definitely, I'm I'm way more annoying to myself than my old My old boss was cool, man. He he would pull me into his office and because he was a new deer hunter, and so he would pull me into his office, like in the middle of the day and he'd be like, hey, man, can you come look at this map real quick? Uh? So I got a picture of this deer here, and I got a picture of this deer here, and I'm trying to think about what he's doing. So he would actually pull me into his office and talk to me about like hunting strategy every once in a while. And so I thought I was getting pulled into his office and I was gonna get in trouble, but it was more of a hunting strategy conversation, which was nice. I actually have to now hold myself accountable for the work that I'm doing and to you know, keep the lights on. And so I have this the you know, the the Dan Johnson on one shoulder in the Dan Johnson on the other shoulders like you should go suhroom hunting and you should go scouting, and then the other ones like, actually, you should uh finish your work today and then you should go do some chores around the house and blah blah blah. I'm just like both you shut up, like it's uh, I don't know, man, it's nuts all right. Now. I feel like, though, I gotta go back to your boss, because I feel like he was really doing new dirty when for years he was calling you to this to his office and you were scared you were in trouble, but instead he tricked you and was just talking about deer hunting, and then finally after you trusted him, he did bring you in and lay you off. I mean, that's like the ultimate worst, isn't it. Yeah, yeah, in a way. But at the same time, I didn't care that I got laid off. Right. So I think in a way it was the best thing for me. And uh, I'll be honest, I probably wasn't an ideal uh uh employee, I mean at all, But I I built everything that I have at work. Certain weeks when I wasn't, they said, like this, he built this while it works. Yeah, exactly, I did. I think in the early days when we were when we recorded, uh some of the original Wired to Hunt episodes, some of those were in a unused I guess the conference room at work. Yeah, I guess that's not ideal, right, right on the clock, getting getting paid to talk about deer hunting. Well, he never listened to the podcast, did he? Oh yeah, he listened to it. He listened to all of them, I think, hopefully not this one. All right. Yeah, I don't think. I don't know if he's listening to him anymore, but I don't think he cares. So we're it's a win win. That's good. That's good. Man. So you talked about the fact that you maybe don't hunt as much as he thought you were gonna. Is that actually truly? Do you really think that you hunt less now? Or what's that look like? Pre you know, new job versus old job. What's your hunting. I wouldn't say that the hunting has gone down, because I do spend a lot of time hunting. I would say the rest of the years is not what I thought it was, you know what I mean. Like, I would definitely love to go fishing more. I would definitely love to be scouting more and doing other outdoor activities, like like today, I wish I was mushroom hunting, but I'm you know, I got work to do. So you know, this new website launched that I mentioned, you know, uploading all the podcast for the network and and all that stuff. So it's like so it's like, I wish I was doing it, but I have to be an adult and run a business, and that I don't know that that is the It's awesome and not awesome at the same time. If that makes any type of sense. It makes sense, and it's it's also very You could take that same answer and you could apply it to our topic that I want us to talk about today, which is kids. They're awesome and not awesome all at the same time. I think we can all agree on that there's moments of both. Um. Yeah, man, I know that when I, Well, it's funny. I was thinking about this last night, and I remember thinking about those early Wired Dune episodes that we recorded, and you'd be telling me about how you felt, you know, bad, going on a big hunting trip and leaving your wife and your daughter home alone, where you felt like you want you should be doing more of this other stuff where you need to do a better job of balancing, or you were trying to figure out how to spend time with your daughter outside while also trying to get these things done that you need to do to deer hunt. And I remember being so unsympathetic to that and being like, Dan, you just gotta get out more, Dan, you just talk about more. Dan, you just gotta And I got to think in last night, I must have been so annoying any this, this young stupid kid with no kids of his own telling you what you should do. And and now I understand so so much more. Um, but that uh, that first year after my first son was born, you, me and our buddy Andy Bradley did a podcast, so we talked a little bit about raising you know, what it's like having kids and trying to raise them in the outdoors and trying to teach them about hunting and fishing and camping and all these other different things that we like to do. So we did that when Whenever was like five months old, and at your point, I think what Eva was probably four or five maybe, or it depends on how long ago. I don't know how long ago that would have been. Two summer two would have had my third depending on what time I would have had my third kid, and he would have been just barely born. Yeah, so we are now, you know, almost five years on from that, four plus years on from that. So ever now is four and my second cult is too um and you know this is my fifth years parents. So I've got a whole new experience set. Now, how old are your kids? Have got three? Now, what are the ages now? Nine? Mac is seven and Knox is four. He'll be he'll be five in September. Yeah, so we've got a whole new set of I think learnings and lessons and insights. And we we have checked in on this occasionally in the years since. I think we did another episode where we talked about this to some degree, but I thought this would be a good time to circle back. It's been on my mind a lot lately actually, um, and just kind of talk about where things are, what we've learned about this stuff. Um. I don't know. It's actually become one of my favorite things to talk about. And maybe it's just because so much of what I do is with my kids now, you know what I'm thinking, always trying to try to post something every day on Instagram, and I'm thinking, Okay, what have I done recently, what's interesting, what's new, What's going on in my life? And it's always kids related. I almost a very few occasionally idea but very few interesting like outdoor adventures that are just like gung ho badass ship. Now with just me, I don't do much of that stuff anymore. It's like I took my son of the river, we went through rocks, or we took a hike, or we went down to the boat, or we shot his little boat, like all that kind of stuff. So I love talking about that stuff now. But I do think, man, I've become that old fuddy duddy who's just always talking about his kids and doesn't do any cool epic stuff anymore. But I don't know if I care. Yeah, I think I think I'm down with it. But it is a New World. E'man Now, you know, I think you're probably in a similar boat. Right right before I answer that question, though, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you, uh what a guy who's already had kids go through high school. He's like, uh, I want to say. He's maybe seven years older than me, and so he's in his late forties, and he's like, you think especially with it, like he had two daughters, and uh so I got my one and she is going through I guess what you would call the early stages of a womanhood, and this this huge surge of independence and like parents don't know ship and I am in charge of me and I'm at the same time, I have to fight back against against that on a daily basis. And and she's nine, yes, And so like this guy, I was kind of explaining this to him, and he was like, dude, you have no idea what's coming. So I'm green to the teenage years, just like maybe back then you were green to just having kids in general. And so this whole life cycle of raising kids. And he's just like, you know, just like get your laughs in now, because a lot of pain and anger are coming your way. And so you just need to mentally prepare for that and know that right now you have it actually pretty good. But coming your way to dad, it's gonna be good stuff. I know. So, Like as of right now, I am in the mode of just spending time with my kids whenever and wherever I can. Okay, it's been a wet spring, right so there's been a lot of a lot of time inside. So whether that's coloring or um reading books or building legos or whatever, whatever, watching movies, whatever, it is, just sitting next to him and spending time with him, My my oldest son. He is in sports mode right now, like this past this past year, like he I didn't really know if he was going to be the guy who wanted to be you know, competitive, or if you wanted to be you know, to some aggression or like not, you know, like it's good to be. I don't want to say cocky or arrogant, but there's you gotta have some confident, competitiveness and confidence. And so in the last I want to say, six months, he's found that. And so he is all sports right now. I mean he at every moment he wants to play football, catch, he wants to play football. He wants to play basketball. For his birthday, we got him a basketball hoop. So he's in that mode right now, and he's not really focused like he's he doesn't necessarily show a lot of interest in the out the quote unquote outdoors. He likes being outside and playing sports, but when it comes to hey, buddy, do you want to go check trail cameras with me? Or do you want to go, um look for some mushrooms, he's not. He's not really into that. He's in the sports thing, you know. Right now, my youngest one, he is in the Like this dude is on a different level, right he And what I mean by that is like he marches to the beat of his own drum in a very positive way. And so like if he he does whatever he wants to do, but when he's doing it, he's focused one on it. And so whether that's playing baseball, or whether it's digging a hole, or whether that's like trying to stack rocks or whatever it is, he's he does that and he that's what he's focused on at that time frame, which is good. I think like the amount of time that a child can sit down and do something, so his attention span is fairly long. And to me, as any parent, really, if you can have a kid do something for a long period of time, you're not bouncing around from activity to activity, right, So I'm not sure on on what his mindset is. I know he likes to go on these rides with me every once in a while when we go out to the country. I'll give him the buy nos, I'll put him on my lap and we'll you know, drive through the um you know country, look just looking for whatever. Right now, my daughter, she is at the point now where she wants to go do things with me, and I want to go do things with her, like like to the point where, man, like, there's days where I'm I'm thinking about pulling her out at school for a day to go do some things. Because are our weak right now, I mean, we're we're loaded when it comes to our schedule, like Monday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is an activity, Saturday, Sunday activities. Right, So we have all three kids and activities that we're we have our own activities that we do and so trying to fit all that in it becomes a little bit of a challenge. But she express she expresses interest and so right now I'm trying to educate her and involve her in just about anything that I'm doing up until the point it becomes frustrating or you know. For example, last year, I took her turkey hunting, and so I think she liked going with me, but she didn't quite understand that you have to be still and you have to do this. So I'm I'm trying to do the education part of it, involved her as much as possible, but at the same time not go to that burnout stage where sometimes people start to lose whatever the activity is that these kids want to be involved in, but they don't want to be involved at the same level that I am. And so that's the challenge that I'm facing right now. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, Um. One of the things I've thought about a lot with my boys, especially with Everett, the oldest, who you know, is doing a ton. Both of them really want to do everything, but Ever is old enough that he can really get after it. Um. And I've always had that same worry that you mentioned. You know, I don't want to make it not fun for them, so I were always try to keep it fun, keep it light, make it enjoyable and and like you said, you don't want them to get burnt out or associate the activity with, you know, something negative. But at the same time, and I'm trying to figure out how you balance this. I don't know the answer to this. This is like a a parenting conundrum that I feel like I need to figure out over the coming years. I do feel like outdoor activities like hunting or fishing, or hiking or camping or any of that kind of stuff, they are really good learning tool or mechanism to like teach kids to push through adversity, right, to get tough, to push through hard things, to learn to become comfortable and uncomfortable situations. So I'm trying to figure out, like, I know they do that. I know they did that for me. I know they can do that for other people. I know they can do that for my boys. But how do you how do you do that? How do you push your kids to get comfortable with being uncomfortable while not pushing it too far. I don't know how to balance that yet, But that's the thing I'm thinking about a lot. Yeah, And I think that's one of those can tinuous learning processes that we all go through as parents, right, I mean, like every week it feels like I have to take a different approach to my kids on whether that's congratulating them or punishing them, or you know, or commuting communicating with them about something that they've seen or have done. Right, It's just it's always it's always different, it's always evolving. And so for me, um, for me personally, I've i my foundation was built on hiking and camping and and things like that, and so uh and I think that's what ultimately lead me to taking some kind of next step. The door was there, the path was there. I just decided to take it into the hunting and fishing and outdoorsman realm when it was just the foundation of being outside and the foundation of knowing about nature and and and having a parent who was interested in those things too, Like my dad he doesn't hunt, but he always was outside with us, like let's go camping, let's go hiking, Let's go to a nature center and look at snake skins and bugs and and different types of birds in Iowa. And so that right there kind of led me to where I'm at today. Yeah. Yeah, that's something that I've I've thought to like that that foundation of just general interest and excitement with the outdoors is is sil key. So so we've been trying to as much as possible, you know, make those opportunities a part of our life, like in any way we can. You know. It's so if it's we're gonna go out to eat, you know, we might go out and do a picnic instead, right or just I mean, if we're doing activities, it's it's nine times that ten going to be something outside. If it's a winner, we're gonna go play in the snow at the park. If it's the summer, we're gonna go throw rocks in the river. It's like all those little things, you know. One of the coolest things we did UM and I realized this isn't available everywhere, but we just were lucky we had this. We have UM a outdoor preschool available in our area in Michigan where it's basically like a nature center UM that runs preschool programs and they're all like nature based and nature focused. And so the kids get there in the morning and the first thing they do is they go and do a nature walk around this This nature center has got a three acre property UM and so they go walk the property and they study worms and plants and trees and look for animals, and they use nature to teach different things. So they'll count rocks, or they'll identify the different colors of flowers, or they'll you know, all these different things. Um and so ever, just finished his first year of that, and that having that opportunity for him to be outside in learning in an environment away from mom and dad has been really cool to just seeing, you know, and it's it's two things going on. Of course, there's the education, there's a socialization with a bunch of kids his own age, but then I think also doing that in an outside space as again, just like we've seen him grow leaps and bounds, and now he's excited to teach me about something outside. He wants to tell me about something to do with how robbins eat worms, or where they make their nests or you know, all that kind of stuff. It's been really really cool to see those those little things adding up to this larger, you know, this larger love of the outdoors. And I think that's what I'm getting as I think one of my main hopes has been that, like I don't know for sure that my sons are gonna like to hunt, or that they're gonna want to fish, or that they're gonna want to kayak or anything specifically. Um and I don't necessarily want to pressure or influence them in any particular direction to do one or any of those things in particular. I think in general, my biggest hope is just that, like if I were, just like if I were to distill down my goals as far as the outdoors and my kids, I just want to have them develop a love for the outdoors and appreciation for it and a comfort in it, and for that to be a place for them to explore whatever activity it is they end up gravitating towards. And so these little things, I think back to what you said, it is all about like just getting that foundation of fun of interest. And I feel like, especially today, maybe it's always been like this, but it seems like it's more important today. It's like, how do you establish that foundation before something else swoops in and steals their attention? You know? I mean technology is the obvious one, right, So many kids these days are obsessed with video games and TV and the Internet and social media and all that kind of stuff. So how do you get ahead of that. But then even like when you talked about Mac with his sports. Uh. And I've got like nieces who are doing traveling sports now. And like my nieces, I don't know eleven or ten, and she's traveling all over the country already, and she's gone every single night for practice for the for school things, some school sport, and then she's doing like club sports on the weekends. And I mean, their life is consumed with this stuff, and it's like, I don't do That's something I worry about a little bit. I mean, of course those things can be good, but I don't know. Selfishly, I sure hope there's time left over to be outside doing these other things too, versus like this terminator style building our kids into tiger woods kind of thing that seems like everyone's doing these days. I mean, does that worry you at all when you see stuff or not? You know, I don't. I don't think I'm gonna I'm gonna answer this two parts. Number one, we this it was actually this week Monday, we had our kids were having some behavioral problems. They weren't listening to us, they were they were being basically vegetables, right. They would go to a TV, they'd get pull up YouTube and they would just sit there and watch. And I went to every TV in the house and every device that they have, and I deleted YouTube from it, and so they no longer have access to that type of content. And I'm telling you right now, in the last four days, they have spent more time outside. They have been they have spent more time reading, coloring, using their brain instead of just vegging out in front of uh, in front of a television. And so that was the best thing that I that I've done. It sucked that first day where they got mad at me and they're like, you never let us do blah blah blah. But then the second day, they they weren't even thinking about it. They're just like, Okay, we know we don't have this, now, let's go do something else. And it led them to this other other stuff, you know, playing outside, playing basketball, you know, just being out outside. So now when it comes to sports, I'm trying to think of what I would have done if I wasn't in sports throughout all these all those years, right you know, whether it was flag football, whether it was starting tackle football, or you know, I even played basketball for a little bit baseball things, you know, those things, And I think sports actually teach kids a lot about discipline and also being comfortable in uncomfortable situations. Like what you've you know, said, like the first time I ever had to go up against someone who is bigger than me in a in a football game. Dude, you're uncomfortable, right, so you have to It's it's another way of dealing with adversity. It's another way of really finding out who you are as a person, Like do you have the guts to do something? Do you have the focus that uh, you know, can you remain focused in a stressful situation? I think sports really does that. At the same time, it's a it's a it's a great place to learn how to be around people who are different than you. Right, everybody's different, So you have a social setting there that I think is very important. Now, your niece, unless she is like d one material, right, she's gonna go to college, even at a lower level, and she'll probably play college if she If she's any type of good and she has a passion for sports, she'll do that. The thing that I really like about sports is it has a it has a shelf life, and so it's gonna end up going away at some point in their life. And that's where the foundation even even sprinkled in. The outdoors even sprinkled in throughout all that chaos of let's just say sports or other activities, whether they're in chess club or computer club or band or whatever, all these things that consume a kid throughout the teenage years or whatever. All that stuff has a shelf life for the most part, and then they hit the real world and the outdoors is always going to be there and not end. And I'm not saying I say this. The outdoors is cheap for the most part. If you want to go on a hike, I can go on a hike a thousand different places for free. And so it has nothing to do with income. It's there. It's uh, there's access to it just about anywhere you want to go camping, fishing, hiking, hunting even and you can. There's access all over the place for for that. And I think that if you sprinkle that in and you have a foundation when they were younger, then ultimately when all that other stuff is done, they will slowly drift back into that. And I mean, I'm sure there was a time mark where maybe did did hunting ever take it like a back seat for you as a kid and it was sports or or social activities. I mean, it certainly took a backseat. It was always something I really enjoyed, but it definitely was not like the full blown obsession during high school and college. You know, I was still going out and partying or going and playing sports and doing that kind of stuff. In retrospect, I look back on those years and I think, jeeves, I wish I would have been, you know, taking that free time I had and instead of going to a house party or going to a football game or something, I wish I had, you know, instead road trip to Alaska or something like that. Yeah. But but yes, like it was always a part of my life, a big like it was like the biggest part of my life outside of like school or social or sports events during high school and stuff like that, sports activity whatever. Um So, yes, you know, I hear, I hear everything you're saying, and I recognize the truth in it. But I also, deep down inside of me selfishly, I am still hoping that that my boys can find Selfishly, I hope that they can get all those things that they'll want to get those things, and that their interest would be more on the outdoor side of things because you can get all those same things. You can fill up all your free time with hiking, hunting, fishing, or climbing or mountain biking or kayaking or rafting or whatever. It is so so selfishly and I don't I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing that I have an opinion like that. I have a desire, and I I know I can't push this on my kids. I know that I shouldn't, and I'm going to try not to. But I'd be lying if I if I told you that I didn't kind of hope that they go that direction. Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't know if that's okay or not to have that. Maybe that's a bad thing that I have a secret desire. I don't know. No, man, it's it's okay because I ultimately want the same thing. How cool would it be to be able, whether whether it's nine years old, seven years old, five years old, if you had this kid who says die hard about hunting and as you were, and they would they want to go out. Dude, that is an excuse for you to go out and hunt as much as you want because you're involving the kids in it, right, and that that's ultimately what you want. But I mean even getting into just like this is my dream, like and this is what I think about a lot is when and I think about it for my daughter too, right, But there's something about a son and a father and a son that there's a connection there and I want the same thing for my daughter. But I think about it with my son, uh a lot, and how cool would it be? And maybe it's because I'm a I'm a I'm a guy, he's a guy. Right, Maybe it's that connection to I want the same thing for my daughter. But how cool would it be to just be like, hey, uh, what are you doing today? Oh? Nothing, you want to go hunt? Yeah, let's go do that. That's all big And have these like me and you we have these these strategy talks. Imagine some day breaking down a hunt with your son and you know what I mean, like and and having this in depth conversation because they've learned what they've learned from you. But at the same time you've let them go, they've come back to it and they've started the observing process and they started the the education, the self education too to come to the spot where then you guys can connect and now your best hunting buddy is your son or your daughter, and the only person you want to hunt with is your son or your daughter. Like that's the ultimate that for me, that's the ultimate goal. But I think you have to give them that distance for them to make that decision up on their own. For sure, they've gotta they've got to choose that direction. And I've always thought that maybe it might not be hunting. But if they take a hanker into i don't know, climbing or something, I guess I'm gonna learn climb. If they get into mountain biking, I guess I'm gonna buy a mountain bike and tag along for as long as they want me to go. And I guess I'll I'll pursue their pursuits as much as they'd like me to to support those you know, you know one thing that um one thing I took from my childhood which I found really helpful was um my dad always told me he was always going to support the habit. So he was going to if he found a thing that I was passionate about or you know, excited about he would spoil me in that arena. So in this case, when he found that I was really into bass fishing in high school, that was the one thing, like everything else I'd ask for, he wasn't given it to me. He had worked for it, had to pay for myself whatever. But he noticed like, hey, here's one of those habits that he's really angling towards, specifically, like he's really getting into bass fishing. And he recognized that as a good avenue to the outdoors, even though that wasn't something he had previously been into. And so he saw this thing I was digging into and he said, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna put some extra resources behind that one because that's where he's wanting to go. And so he got into bass fishing too, and you know, that's that end up being a great thing for me and for us our relationship too. So that's that's the thing I've taken with me and I'm going to be trying to do in the future, is is keep an eye out for where their curiosities and interests start taking them. And all I can do is expose them to a lot of stuff. I think that's where I am at this this stage in their lives is exposing them to a ton of stuff. And and like we have done, we do a lot outside UM. We've kind of revolved our entire lives around it. I'm right now sitting in my driveway in Idaho looking at the mountains, and this afternoon, the first thing this morning, the boys are up and that they want to go for a hike. And then later this afternoon we're to go take a walk down the river. We're gonna throw rocks in the river and look for fish. And then later today we're gonna go take a hike underneath the mountains. And like that, we're doing our best to make that kind of stuff like daily. We're we're making that a part of life and exposing them to all these different things hiking and fishing and camping. And we're gonna take them to a climbing gym next week, and we're taking to do these different things. And just like we're taking the shotgun approach, shooting a bunch of stuff at the wall, and then we'll see what sticks. We'll see what they're really into, we'll see what they're excited about. UM. And then I guess then try to support that. Um. But but these early years I think is just making it fun, exposing them. And and then I do feel like, at least for me, because these are the things that we love and that we're involved in, you know, it's it's it's easiest for me to teach through this stuff. So I'm not very good at like sitting and doing crafts. I'm not the dad who can, like, I don't do that kind of thing. I can't even sit and like do I don't know what city parents do with their kids and do some educational app or some educational game or something like that. I don't know. That doesn't resonate with me. But I can take my son for a walk in the woods and teach them about different things or like I was talking about the preschool and stuff like that kind of stuff I can teach in that kind of medium. Um. So I guess I'm when I'm I don't even know where I'm going with this, but I guess what I'm finding is that these early years, the outdoors is simply serving as a canvas two do a lot of different things to teach, to learn to grow relationship together. And and really it's just about being out there and seeing where the compass points you eventually. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a that's a great approach. Now, I think we do have to talk about something though, and that's for parents who let's say there's a guy who's listening to this and him and his wife just like a lot of Americans are working all the time, right, They're just like Jesus man, Mike, my schedules swamped. I worked ten hours, or I work as a night shift, or I work and I'm tired and I want to go do these things. Like what we're doing is great, but there are people out there who like, like time is limited or opportunity is limited. How do you think that people should go about out getting their kids and the outdoors. They know the benefits from it, but they just man, they they want it, but they just can't do it consistently enough as they as they would want to. Yeah, And I think you're right, that's a very real thing that a lot of people face. And and I am super lucky that I'm able to do as much as I do. And I realized that's not normal. Maybe, um so my thought would be as much as possible is better than nothing, Like, whatever you can get is better than nothing. And like you mentioned, sprinkle here and there, even the dabbling, those introductions, even a little bit can come back down the road. I mean that was even the case for me. I mean even though as a kid we did a lot of outdoor stuff, you know, it was never I always described like my outdoor childhood is a very pedestrian outdoor childhood. Like we didn't do anything hardcore. My dad didn't really know anything serious about hunting or fishing. Um, no offense, dad, if you're listening, um, But you know, he wasn't like hardcore in any kind of way. He was just let's go out to the river or let's go to the lake for a little bit. And we never caught anything where I was like, oh, well, at least you don't need to clean the fish um where you go hunting. And we never killed anything. I was like, well, at least you don't need to get a deer um. And like we didn't do like a big adventures. It was like, well, let's go camp at the little city campground down the road along the lake. It was very local Michigan pedestrian stuff. So in a way, I was just getting introduced with little sprinkles here and there, and then after college, just like you said, after college, I was able to spread my wings and I could then double down back into this thing that I had developed a love for based on the sprinklings through childhood, and then I just went super deep into it, took it to a whole different level. Um. And so I think I shared that story because I think as a parent listening, he's worried about only being able to do the sprinkle approach. Um, there's still hope for that, Like, that's okay. Any introduction is better than nothing. And I would say a second thing though, So first off, whatever you can do is better than nothing, Like a walk in the park in the city is great if that's all you've got available to you and there are real, still real benefits from them. Um. But a second thing I would say also is that and this is something that kind of this is like a virtue that was hammered home for me when it came to like just working in like especially when I was trying to build Wired Hunt as a second job, right when I was still doing the day job. There's there's always this temptation to be like, oh well, I don't have time. I don't have time. I don't have time. There's always other things. But if you were to do a very honest audit of your day, and I'm not saying this is true for everybody, but I think there's a decent number of people who if you were to audit your day and look at how your time is actually spent, you're gonna find there's an hour of Netflix, or there's a half hour of reading a book, or there's you know, two hours a week that you go to I don't know, play intermural baseball with your buddies, or there's uh an hour here there where you sit on your phone playing I don't know, animal farm, or on Instagram or Facebook or some shi it like that. And if you were to really, true, truly look at your hours in a day and then say, okay, what is more important than my kids being outside? And then say, well, I don't think looking at Instagram is more important than my kids being outside, Or maybe me going and going to the bar once a week with my buddies, maybe that's not as important as my kids getting outside. I do think we could probably all if we made the tough choice to prioritize it, find a little bit more time if we were to cut out some of that bullshit, the stuff that we just do because it's fun or easy. But honestly, like I could even find times like that that I could cut out. So so my one thing would be take a good hard look at your time and yourself and think, like, maybe maybe there's an extra half hour I can carve out a week and prioritize this outdoor time because it's outside time. Man, it is just so good for kids, whether want them to hunt her fish or whatever, just being outside. It is such a catalyzer for for learning and growing and becoming real human beings. And there's this just so much. There's there's a ton of research these days, Dan, I don't know if you've ever dove into this. I just wrote an article on it. I don't know if it's out yet, um, And I've read a couple of books on this recently. But there's a whole host of research studies being done now looking into the the physiological like true health benefits and mental health built benefits of time and nature. Like it's not just that like, oh we like it, it's actually that being outside with like certain concentrations of oxygen, with the um, with the aerosols that trees emit, these different chemicals that wild started the plant life emits into the air, all sorts of different things. Actually makes us less stressed, actually makes our bodies work better, actually makes us do all these things we're supposed to be doing in a in a healthier way. So it's it's not just about having a fun time out there, it's actually just playing good for kids. So so I mean any little bit helps, I guess that is what I'm trying to say in a lot of different ways. What's your take on that? Oh? I agree, you know, like you're and to boil it down even a little, just a hair further. You don't need that research. I mean, go out, go for a walk outside and come back into your house and evaluate how you feel then versus how you feel before you went outside, and it's it's better. It doesn't I would I would say, unless you're like hyper allergic to some kind of plant pollen, Like I would say, anybody can go outside, walk in through your backyard, or or go for a walk in your town. Something as simple as that, You're gonna feel straight up better afterwards. And so I mean my kids, uh, they sleep better. I'll put, I'll put I'll use this as an example. This winner my two youngest They would get up at the middle of the night and they would wake up, and then they would try to get into bed with us. Now that they're able to get outside in a little bit of this warmer weather and run around, dude, they're sleeping through the night, they're well rested, they're less cranky, they are you know, they're they're using energy, they're breathing fresh air, and and even their attitudes are a little bit better in certain times. So, uh, to me, that is enough. That's enough information for me to to get them outside as much as possible. Man. Yeah, so so true. So let's try to think back on some recent stories or experiences or lessons learned we've had over the last year or two as far as doing stuff with our kids outside, camping, hiking, fishing, boating, hunting. Um, let's just share some of the things we've picked up recently that have worked for you or me, or that we've learned while getting out there and doing this stuff. Because I get I imagine you get these kinds of questions too, But I get a lot of questions from young parents, you know, seeing something I've posted or something, and they're like, how do you how do you actually camp with a two and a four year old without it being miserable? Or you know, how are what are you actually trying to do when you take your son out there hunting with you? How does that work? Or when should you take your son hunting? Or when should you take you know, your kid out fishing with a real hook? Um whatever? Like all these kind of specifics. Um, there's always I mean, there's always these moving targets on all that kind of stuff. Um, But has anything recently happened with you, Dan where you had any kind of lightbulb moments in any one of those kinds of activities where you realize like, oh this this really worked, or this was something they loved, or this was something that I got to do more of. Um, I don't know, anything come to mind you. Yeah, So here's for me. I wanted to get it. I wanted to go chet trail cameras with them. You would think that's a fairly easy task. Or I wanted to go mushroom hunting with them, which means they have to go into the woods. And so some of just the ability to to traverse the landscape can be difficult for a young child. Right. So this is where I've put a lot of emphasis on the fishing aspect of it, because most of the time, uh and I'm not saying every time, but if you have a boat, that's awesome. If you have uh, and typically around let's say a river or a public lake or things like that, you're going to find a spot where a kid can sit and not being tall weeds and not have to go through an entire timber like thorns or a whole bunch of vegetation to get to a certain place. Right. It's easy access from from just a mobility standpoint. And so for me, what I found is that fishing is it that is that's the gateway drug to the outdoors from from my kids. And it's something that you know, there's not a lot of bugs getting on them, they're they're not getting too terribly dirty doing it, and then if they get bored, then they can go run around. Right. So that would that for me, That's what I've observed, is because it's the yeah, you're gonna have to give up your fishing while you're doing it. Like I don't even fish. When I go fishing with my kids, all I'm the worm master and taking help taking the fish off, right, So I do those those things. And so when the when the kids get bored, they can go run around and they can go play in nature and dig through the worms and and things like that, and then when they come back, I want to fish again. Okay, let's go do it. So the that right there has been the has had the most impact for me. And of course I don't think they know it, or maybe even I don't know it, but going through them, just going through the motions of going on a hike have been Oh Dad, look at that bird right there. It's a cool bird, you know, like that's uh, you know, hey, what what kind of tree is that? Well, let's pull a leaf on off it and let's go look on on my phone, or let's go look at the tree book at home, and so those it's just like the little things like that is really what has has gotten gotten them more excited to be outside. Yeah, man, I can't agree more when it comes to fishing being that gateway drug, just because it's for every everything you said, it's it's so I think what like interest in water is just universal, Like I don't I don't know many kids that don't want to just play in water, like play in it or throw stuff in it, or you know, shake a stick in it or whatever. Like that's just playing fun no matter who you are. Um so I think you've got like a little extra handicap there, like it's it's helping you out just because water is innately fun no matter what. And then you know, like you said, fishing can be if you're on a boat, there's a lot of good things going for it. Or actually trying to fish, like that's a relatively easy way. I mean shoot throwing worms for bluegills or throwing I don't know, worms or something for like a stocked rainbow trout like a little pond or something like that. There's no easier bang for your buck kind of outdoor experience where you can almost guarantee a positive result, right, Like if you're in a spot with some bluegills, you can catch them. I mean, that's just so easy for a little kid to have, like a super cool, exciting experience that they feel is like really awesome and hardcore. I'm it's hard to beat that. I mean, are last year. Probably the best thing we did last year was by a boat. We bought a drift boat for our place out in Idaho, and all summer we would take off, you know, come minutes down the road, hop on a river with a boat and float down the river and the kids just had a blast and all all the different things we try to do. It was it was like the least miserable in moments, right, I mean, like going on a hike in the mountains or something is cool, but there's gonna be points of misery, and that there were of the kids don't want to do it anymore, or they're tired or whatever. Um. But floating on a boat down a river is hard to you know, there's not a lot of bad stuff and go wrong. It's mostly just relaxing. The kids can have fun. You can fish a little bit. You can stop and let the kids fish, like like you were talking about. The kids can just run around or play when you pull off on the side of the river and play on the shore. Um. We brought just like we did a bunch of things on the boat to make a kid friendly. So we bring a bunch of square guns. We'd bring a bucket full of rocks, tiny little rocks, and then the whole float down the river. They would just throw rocks and throw rocks and throw rocks. We cut up pool noodles and tied them on a pieces of pear cord and then tied those off on the side of the boat, and so all over the boat there was different pieces of pool noodle on different lengths of rope that they could toss out there and try to hit things and pull it back and do different stuff like that. And I mean we could spend ten hours out there on the river doing that and they would want more of it the next day. Um, It's just like it was such a fun thing and it was like it was it was fun for them, but it was actually also still fun for me. I mean, there's sometimes when you're doing a thing with your kids where you're doing it for them and it's it's not a ton of super fun and like a what am I trying to say, you know what I mean? Like there's no thing as a uh family fun for everyone's scenario, at least different levels of it, right, Like I mean, but there was floating down the river with a beer and the cooler with a beer and the coozy next to me, and I'm rowing like I'm just kind of like, man, I'd be doing this no matter what whether he had the kids with me or not, like this is just nice. And then they're also the kids are also having a great time too, so it was like we're both at a ten. Well, other times it might be the you know, my son's at a ten and I mind like at six. Um of course those things very I'm not saying like I'm always not having found with my kids, oftentimes having found my kids, but that was one of those things where it was it was easy for us all to be having a really great time, and I think trying to find more opportunities where it's like that where everybody can be in a ten, Like you gotta kind of pick and choose your spots, um, you know, like with hiking, we still try to go out and do a lot of hikes with their kids out here, but those you really have to kind of carefully plan it out, you gotta, you know, like if I were going on a hike pre kids, my wife and I would be like trying to get up high way up in the mountains. We want like super epic views and really cool stuff like that. Um. But with kids, it's very hard to find spots where you can get up to like some epic view like that without having to go very long distance or a very hard hike. And you know, all sorts of things can happen in those scenarios where your kids are not gonna be having fun, or it's gonna be really tough for you if you're hauling them on your back or something. So we've we've just had to be a lot more strategic in doing a lot of research or asking around or searching out actually finding a few couple of places where you can have like a pre kid kind of hike but it's actually kid friendly as far as difficulty or distance. So that's one thing, and then the flip side, I've also had to learn to come to enjoy the simple fun of an easy one mile walk along the river and say, you know what, that's our day, and not feel bad about the fact that I'm not doing a ten hole a ten mile hike to the top of the mountain like I did ten years ago. UM. So it's been a combo of to those two things, I guess, and I think knowing when to back out is important too. Because there's times where the kids are all gun hole about it. I'm gonna hope about it. Let's just say it's a hike like you, like you said, and we're a hundred yards in to the hike or two hundred or whatever, the first hill, and you see they've lost interest and now they're complaining and they're you know, like I think, I don't think they're I think the attempt is what is important. And then if there they lose interest in something, you know, maybe push just a little bit. But at the same time you have to know, hey man, we need to back out, we need we need let's go home, you know, we can go maybe play some basketball or do something else. Because at that time, I know I've been there where, and you know, knowing the limits is what's what is what's difficult, because I've been on those hikes or on those mushroom hunts where all right now we're we're back in a ways and so that means not only you have to go there, but you got to get out. And so now we're walking up a big hill to get back. And for me it's not you know, it's it's easy, but for them it's it's more strenuous and so that's that is like understanding the limit and understanding when the color quits is is equally important. Yeah, very very true. So on that topic, another thing I did think about was some of the little tricks I've learned to make those more enjoyable for the kids, I guess, um or to convince them to go further, whether it's like shed hunt, a mushroom hunt, or a hike or something like that. I mean, always having snacks is like the easiest cheek for me at least, or promising queen. Yeah, yeah, that too, But I mean being able to kind of divvy out little bits of snacks and candy or something special along the way that can always buy me an extra half hour or an extra mile or something like that. Um. Like, that's a thing like if I if I ever forget that, I always ruin. I always regret making that oversight. Um. Another thing that was kind of hard for me at first and still is a little bit. You know, this will be no surprise to you, Dan from the years of hearing me talk, But like I am always just so like I want to get to the next thing, I want to get to the goal, right, I'm just like, I want to get there. I want to go to this thing. So when I'm hiking traditionally pre kid mark was I had a destination in mind, and I was like wanting to go as fast as we can, as hard as we can to get to that place. So I was like the speed hiker, didn't take a second to look at anything else. And with kids, especially now, like at first the first year or two, whenever could ride on my back in the baby carrier, I could still do that, but now he's too old to be in anything like that. So we're going at his pace, and he wants to stop and climb on every boulder. He wants to stop and look at every he wants to look under every log for worm. He wants to kick every I don't know dead worm on the trail and look at it and pick up. And at first I was like, let's go, let's go, let's keep going, let's keep going. Let's come on, all right, we gotta we gotta move in the next one. But I'm getting I'm realizing more and more the importance of just being okay with all those detours, because that's the fun thing for them. And and the more I let him you know, climb on every boulder and do that kind of stuff. Yeah, it slows me down, us down. Yeah, we don't go as far. Yeah, we don't ever get to we never get to these end goals anymore. Um, But he enjoys it more and then wants to go and do that kind of thing more often. And so someday we'll get to the point where he wants to go to an end goal too, And so someday we'll get back to that kind of stuff. And some days, even at this age, he actually gets a burst of energy and really does want to go for a long walk or whatever. And so we still get to do those things. But I think letting them have fun along the way in whatever way they find fun, even if that's different than yours. Like that's that's been important to me. So we bring a lot of snacks, bring a lot of water. We let them mess around with every little weird curiosity they find along the way. Um, and you know, we do. I think a little bit of bribery, like you talked about. Um, lots of times, if we're gonna go on a hike or a shed hunt or something like that, I'll have like a planned special thing for afterwards. So I was like, all right, guys, we're gonna go out in this fun hike. And we always know after a big hike we're always going to get to get donuts and we're gonna get to get ice cream or something like that. So it becomes like a a special thing, like a big package. So there's all these special things around it. And like even when I have been taken my son up to our deer camp now up to Ken Robin, I've taken him up there a few times now, and and with that too, I'm always trying to make these things into special events. So it's not just like we're gonna go up to deer camp and go deer hunting and expecting him to have fun going up to the cabin, but it's knowing that, all right, when we go up to the cabin, we're also going to stop for special breakfast. We'll get whatever you want, and we're also going to you know, let you pick a candy bar out. He never gets to get candy, but in this case, you know, you have a candy bar when we go up there. You know, whatever it is, like all these special things I'll layer on top of that thing. So that it becomes extra fund for all these other reasons, and they begin to associate this extra fun or extra special stuff around these types of outings, um so that it's not a burden, it's something they look forward to for all of these reasons. So what happens when when uh he you know, let's just say, hey, man, Dad, I think I think I really like deer hunting and you're like, oh, ship, yes, thanks, Thank the Lord. This is happening, right Dad. I'm wanna I want to learn about the rut and I want to do all this stuff. And then he gets to this point, he goes out, he makes his move, and the deer no deer shows up for like a whole week, and he's like, screw this, I'm done. So like what happens when you take like when you when he has the interest, but then you're no longer in control anymore. To great question, man, I don't know. I mean I think that I'm not there yet. I can't answer that either. Yeah, that's a hypothetical. Yeah, I guess my hope is that. I think my hope is that all the years leading up to that, this is going back to like how the outdoors I think can teach kids resilience and like toughness and perseverance. I think hopefully all those years leading up to this point will have instilled in our kids that perseverance, that stick, tuitiveness, that toughness, whatever it is that they need to push through, um, to push through and get to that next step or that next experience or that next outing or whatever it is. I'm hoping that once they're out there on their own, we've done a good enough job that they can handle those inevitable you know, down days, those inevitable dud's right. I mean, I think that's like we keep going back to this, but I think that just the outdoors, whichever have you take, is really really, really good at training kids for those types of situations, you know, training them for life too, because like, I don't know, there's so much other stuff out there, like video games and socially, all the other things that we're talking all the all the banes of society these days, Like there's just so much easy fun, there's easy satisfaction, participation, trophies for everything. Um, it's so easy in so many different ways that I think that giving your kids opportunities to not succeed every time and learning how to deal with that, learning that that's okay, learning to push through those tough times. Um. And maybe that's something that they'll maybe that's something that becomes more of a thing, you know, when my kids are ten or twelve versus when they're two and four. Maybe that's the case. But um, but I do think that that's part of it too. Yeah, what happens if all of a sudden, you've you've just raised the next Andy May and you didn't even know it. And and so your your son is just like a slayer when he's a teenager, and all of a sudden, he just like clicks for him way earlier than it ever did for us. And now he's becoming a better hunter than you? Does that Does that excitement then turn to animosity for you because you've been outshadowed by your son? Now? No, man, that's my greatest hope is that he will outshine me someday. And I really think he will. I don't know if it'll be hunting, but it'll be something. Um. But I mean I think about this like, you know, like I told you, like my outdoor introduction, like my childhood was very very pedestrian. I got almost. I had very introductory level and you know, educations on all things outdoors, right, and I was I've still been able to get out there and do some some legit stuff, I guess. But my son, you know, since the time he was born, he's been like doing what most people would think. It's like pretty hardcore stuff. Like he lived in he camp for two months straight, two summers in a row. He's been to the top of nearly the top of mountains. He's hunted and fished and been doing this kind of stuff. He's only four. I can't imagine what he's gonna know and be capable of by the time he's fourteen. I mean he's gonna I bet you, by the time he's fourteen, he'll be better than me at fort um. The way it looks right now, Um, it's something I don't know. I guess that it might not be hunting. It might be fishing or climbing or biking or whatever. I don't know, but there'll be something. Whatever he gets into, I bet you he's going to be crushing it in one way or another. And I think that's what I hope for my kids, is that they find a thing. Yeah, I just hope that they have they find something. For me, it's been hunting and fishing. But one of my greatest hopes is that they find something that that just revs their engine, that gets them excited, that they're passionate about, that they are driven to get better at, to learn about, to dive fully into. And And my hope is that something outside because I think those outside things are good for you. But I just think about I look at other people I don't know, across the world or whatever that don't have a thing like we do, and I think how boring or how aimless that must be sometimes to have your only hobbies be watching sports on TV and playing video games or binge watching Netflix or whatever. Um, I'd be lost if I didn't have like these outdoor things that my life revolves around, like our calendar cycles through. Um. So I'm just hoping they can find something they can be passionate about, that they can give their all and that they can you know, grow from and and I think that there's plenty of opportunities in the outdoor. So then to find something that clicks like that, I don't know, that's the goal. That's the endgame, right, Yeah? Man? He really is. I gotta say, it's so cool to see the baby steps along the way for that. Um. I mean, there's so many stories, so many things like that. One of the coolest. I don't think we've talked about this, Dan if we did tell me, but I don't think I told you yet. But last year I took my son out a couple of times to help me recover deer and his excitement to help me go find a deer just through the roof. But what was really cool was the fact that he can see red in dark situations way better than I can. So he is tracking my dear for me better than I can, damn already at age. And this who's three years old. At three years old, he's like a blood out. He's like, there's blood, there's blood, there's blood, and he's going on like a hundred and fifty yard blood trail through the swamp leading the way, and he he yells at me if I try to go on from He's like, no, Dad, I want to be the leader. I want to be the leader. And he's taking me to my deer. Um. I mean that kind of stuff, those little moments like that is just like a Super Bowl Trophy for me as a dad, it's just like the coolest thing to see those little successes along the left. Yeah, dude, I I think about that a lot, especially because I I killed my dear this year on a weekday and so the kids had school, and that it would have been the perfect blood trail. Right. I watched the dear drop but it was kind of it was like forty or fifty yard track job. But I watched him drop, right, and I was like, man, that would be cool if I could get the kids down here, So like I want to. I want to start spending a little bit more time closer to home so I can get them involved in this in that aspect of it too. So you know, I don't know, We'll see, we'll see it. It's uh, it's fluid at this point. So I've got one last question for him. And I was asked this question myself. I dont a few weeks ago, um, and I I hadn't really figured out an answer for myself terribly explicitly. But but I'm curious if you have thought it all about how, if, if how or if or when you teach your kids about like conservation. Oh yeah, have you have you have you thought about that. Do you try to do that in some kind of purposeful way or are you letting it kind of naturally happen. What are your thoughts on, like, how do we instill that value in our kids? How do we show them that? How do we teach them about that kind of stuff? Um, what's what's that been like? Or what does that mean for you? It's uh actually although the active, the active part of that isn't really happening, Like we've never done any type of I mean, well I take that back my my kids. Uh, every year, somewhere in July, we get like three or four big trash bags, right, and we go to some of the public land down by where I live and we clean up the parking areas. Right. We just pick up the big, the big things that we can and load a couple of trash bags in and throw it in the back of the truck. And and or when we drive down a certain road. There's a certain road that leads to our town that has public land on one side of it, and there's always beer cans and trash, and we'll we'll pick that up so that aspect of it is there, right, and so that it takes an army of people. It just it takes a whole community. Now, what you've done in one day doesn't seem like a lot, but if you do this every day, or if a whole bunch of people do this right, then it becomes then you have all these hours and all this energy that's been put into keeping Mother Nature clean and healthy. So every time I see, like, uh, a wood duck in a in a like coming out of a box or you know, or something an example of that, like why do why do we have birdhouses on here? Or why do we do this? Or why do we do that? And just explain to them and it may not sink in. It's like some people who think that they can, you know, play play something while they're sleeping and they'll they'll subconsciously remember it later. Okay. So that's the approach that I'm currently taking when it comes to conservation, is just explaining to them whenever the opportunity presents itself. And and if you look for it's there a lot and you can say, hey, hey, dad, you see that fox or that that turkey. I'm like, hey, did you know that right now that the turkey population is struggling a little bit in the state of Iowa. And it's because, um, one of the thoughts is that there's an over you know, and overpopulation in raccoons. Oh really, I didn't know that they eat eggs. Yeah, actually raccoons are are what they call a nest predator, and you know, like and having those conversations with them all the time, and I think, and a lot of it has to do with um watching conservation shows like on nat GEO or you know something. It doesn't even have to be North American related, like, hey, check these guys here. All they do all day long is protect elephants, right, or a rhinoceros or something like that. And or when we go on our hikes and we see someone with a shovel fixing a one of those railroad tie steps on a on a trail, that's how I learned. That's how like my dad and me and my brother would go camping all the time, and he taught us about conservation through like the county conservation boards and the state parks and things like that, and how it takes a team of people to make something like this successful and then talk a little bit about the details and maybe you know, like hey, Dad, what's this animal, Oh that's actually an animal that's extinct or that how you know, like the buffalo isn't necessarily really wild anymore because of what we did in the past and how certain people thought it was important to keep this out and and start talking just it's just conversation Asian really at this point. Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's basically the same avenue I've taken. I've taken like I've kind of thought of it in like a three a three layer approach. Like number one is just doing what we've talked about this whole podcast, which is just getting them exposure to the outdoors and helping them develop develop a love for it, right, because I think that's step one, Like you gotta love something first before you're willing to fight for it or work for or whatever, right get to care for So step one is like helping them develop that love. Then step two is kind of, like you said, like lead by example, like live in a way so that when your kids look at how you live and they see how they grew up, they will kind of seek conservation and action through small daily practices. So like you know, you said, like going out and picking up trash. That's the thing that I've tried to do with our kids too, and like it's a fun thing and you're making a little difference or like talking about this is why we recycle or whatever it is, like this is why we're planning trees, um, and so do these little things throughout life while showing it. It's not just oh, well, telling them something, it's not just telling them, it's actually showing like, oh yeah, this is the thing we do. This is the thing that our family does. UM. I think that year after year after year, will I think sink in and then finally just like what you said, I think like taking every little opportunity to educate in small, simple, child friendly ways about you know, just teaching what animals or how animals live or interact or small ways that we can help and talk about kind of like hey, you know, what's you know, part of our our duty is to try to give back. Part of what we try to do is take care of these things, um and keep it simple. But I think that that stuff like starts to become a part of who they are. If day after day, hike after hike, fishing trip after fishing trip, hunting trip after hunting trip, they learn little tiny things along the way, like what you talked about. I think that stuff starts to sink in and grow and it all goes back to developing that foundation. And I think the hope is that when they're sixteen or there, twenty one or whatever, all of that love for the outdoors, all of that seeing how their family operated in a way that was, you know, giving back to the natural world in some kind of way. And then I think all these little lessons, small child friendly lessons over the course of their lifetime, I think all of that gives them this foundation to then do something with it when they are adults themselves, and hopefully they'll love it enough to want to try to do something good too. Um. I think it's I don't think it's complicated. I think it's I think that that's a simpler thing than maybe a lot of the other things we talked about. It's like, if you love it and you show that we should care about it, I think naturally that will grow within them. You know. Yeah, I really think what you said earlier about shedding some of the waste in your life. Like, dude, I don't watch TV anymore. Uh. If I do watch TV, I'm gonna put an asterix by that because I just finished ozark Um this week, so is that pretty good? From about yeah, from about nine to eleven this whole week after the kids are in bed, I I've been binging that show. I'm done with it and so but on an average week and I don't even I watched the news in the morning to get the weather, and that's it for the most part. Uh, and either playing basketball outside with my son or I'm you know, working or whatever the deal is. So I'm I'm I'm getting rid of the waste the stuff that's not important, and I'm putting into what you know, putting more of what is important into the into the daily routine. And I think, uh, that's seems to be to be working so far. Yeah, man, agree with that. Getting rid of TV, Like, we don't even have a TV at our help place at all, so we don't we don't even have a TV here to watch, so getting rid of that has been a huge thing. Now we do have a tablet, so we'll let the kids watch stuff occasionally on there. But then deleting Facebook and Twitter off my phone was another one. Now I still have Instagram because I just gotta keep posting stuff on Insta, but getting rid of Facebook and Twitter has just like this is kind of a topic, totally separate, but it has just cleared up so much mind space from absolutely and a little bit of real time. But then also just like peace of mind has been amazing getting rid of that crap. Um, So yes to trying to prune the dead branches in your life in whatever form that comes up. I think, yeah, man, running this business is one of those like social media's uh uh, what do they call that? A necessary evil? Evil, stary evil, uncertain aspects of it and just doing what I do for promotion of the podcast and and the network and things like that. So what like the deep down inside of me, I don't want that anymore, So I don't. I mean, I will want my business and I want my podcast, but I don't want social media. Like I just still still to this day, I'm on it way less than I used to be. But I'll get into a scroll hole this is what I call it. And you're just like, what am I doing? I'm not even reading any of this ship. It's like it's just like habitable and so so I put it down and I've deleted you know certain things, and I only do what's like what's really important to me, and and so, uh, just like again, trying to get rid of as much waste is humanly possible. Yeah, man, that's it's great for your mind, and it's a great way to get a little outside time. That's fact. So, buddy, I got one last question for I already told you I had one last question, but I got one more. The one more question is just what's new with sports Nation? Where can people find the latest? What what people know? Yeah, so I guess my question is when is this going to launch? Uh, this is gonna launch, so not today May five, but like May twelve, Okay, so next Thursday. So I'll just I'll just say this right now, the Sportsman's Nation is going through a very small rebrand where I'm getting this new website and so it's gonna be it's gonna be a name change from Sportsman's Nation to Sportsman's Empire, so Sportsman's Empire dot com. And so nothing's really changed with the network. Tons of great content coming out of it, a whole bunch of different content coming out of it. We got um More podcast joining the network. The Nine Finger Chronicles is still going to be on there, and so it's, uh, we're slowly transitioning into from Sportsman's Nation to Sportsman's Empire and and so I'm excited about that. And and other than that, man, it's just like putting out a ton of content. I think June is gonna be like a flood of content. We're gonna be putting out so much cool stuff. And and all the other content providers for the network are are jacked and and doing well. And so I'm dude, I'm I'm really excited. Uh, I'm really excited to keep moving forward and see the business grow and and ship, like hire somebody. I'm actually thinking about hiring somebody right now, which is crazy to to have. And I guess what I would call an employee, which is nuts to think of. Uh. And so just continuing to move forward, man, that's all you know. Don't look back, I guess. Yeah. That's awesome, dude, good for you. I'm glad. I'm glad to hear. It's been awesome to watch. So keep on working hard, but even not too hard. To take a little time, get out there, breathe that fresh air. I'm gonna try all all I can. I just need like the Midwest kind of sucks this year. Man, it's been wet and raining, and so I'm ready for I'm ready for a straight like week a sunshine so I can get stuff done. I want to go hang trail cameras back out. I want to put mineral back out. I want to go mushroom hunting. I want to go fishing, like all this stuff that I wanna pack into like this summer. So come on out to Idaho, dude. I'm sitting here in my driveway on my little camp table, sitting outside. I'm looking at the mountains the sun shine, and it's beautiful and it's just calling your name, dan Ill. Day one would be awesome, like oh Mark our families blah blah blah. Day two you'd be like Jesus, w are the Johnson's gonna leave? Man? When are they gonna leave? I don't think so. I don't think so. But there's a lot of fun stuff to do it here. I keep in mind, keep in mind, all right, buddy, Thanks for having on fun anytime. Man, all right, And that's a rap. Appreciate you listening. I hope you enjoyed this one. Be sure to stay tuned for more on this topic, definitely on my Instagram count I talk about my kids and my challenges and lessons learned and things I've figured out in the outdoors of my kids a lot on there. So if you're not already following me on Wired to Hunt, look up wired to Hunt on the Instagram platform. Uh lots there. And then, like I mentioned at the top, Steve's new book, Outdoor Kids in an Inside World. It's available anywhere books are sold. Highly recommend checking it out. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. So until next time, thanks for tuning in, I appreciate you, and stay wired to Hunt.