00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Ken. You all right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today we are celebrating, my friends. We are celebrating some very good news when it comes to public land and wildlife conservation and hunting and hiking and fishing and just about anything else related to access to the outdoors in America, because a new bill was introduced this week with bipartisan support, called the Great American Outdoors Act, and it is accomplishing several very important things that hunters and anglers and other conservations have been working on for a long time. And it seems knock on wood borrowing some kind of disaster that there is support to pass this thing into law, and this is all happening. It's all happening as far as I can tell, at least, because you guys and a whole lot of other folks across the country have rallied around these causes of public lands and conservation and wild places and made it just plain required, made it necessary for politicians to start paying attention and to start supporting this stuff. Uh, you know, I wrote in my book That Wild Country. Right towards the end, I wrote about the fact that, you know, while there are myriad challenges to conservation and public lands, While these challenges and these attacks are gonna keep coming forever and ever and ever, history has also shown that when Americans come together, regardless of other differences, when we come together, we can protect these places and the animals we care about, and the resources. And that's what's been going on these past few years. It's exactly what I've hoped and prayed would be possible, and it's happening. Cabella Shoppers and ari I Shoppers, Republicans and Democrats, rural and urban folks are all setting aside labels and team colors, and they're coming together to protect our wild places and wild animals. And and I really think that we are We're a part of something right now. There's a moment that I think that what we're seeing here today and over the last year two it's gonna be written about some day in history books, just like I wrote about stuff going on in the early nineteen thirties and forties and then the nineteen sixties and seventies. Someday people are gonna be writing about the late teens and early twenties of how there were all these immense challenges to these places and animals and our environment, and how a bunch of people rallied around him and made a big difference. That's happening right now, and I'm pumped. I'm really I'm really proud, and I'm encouraged. I'm excited about what this community is doing. So that is what we're going to talk about today with Lantani of back Country Hunters and Anglers, who's been leading the charge on a lot of these issues that we're gonna cover. So that's the plan. Without much further ado, though, we're gonna take a very quick break to thank our friends at Lacrosse Boots, and then we will get right into it. No pre MBS show today. I just want to talk about this is very exciting to Altman. Now let's get to chatting with land Tawny. All right, I'm excited now to have with me on the line, Land Tawny, welcome back Land. It's good to be back Mark. Like we're just saying before I started recording, I'm excited that we have such a good reason to be chatting today. It's a it's a good moon. The are right now, isn't there? Oh man? It's Uh, I'm I'm ecstatic right now and like glowing. Uh, this is pretty awesome. So so explain to folks why you are so so excited. You just said something to me that, um, that's pretty cool. How you see this fitting into the bigger picture scheme of things? Um? What what level of excitement are we talking about here with with a Great American Outdoors Act? You know? I think that, Um, this is probably I've been doing this kind of work for twenty years, and I would put this at the top like any kind of accomplishment. And I've been a part of and and and there's been you know, lots of wins in those twenty years. Um. But the idea that this, you know, was first passed in four in such a bipartisan fashion. Uh. Last year when it was permanently authorized Land and Water Conservation Fund to eight in the Senate and three sixty three to sixty two in the House, like that was momentum. But we didn't get the money. And so what this is doing is Great American Outdoors Act is doing. That's full and dedicated funding at nine million dollars. And you know, this means that permanently, every single year will have nine million dollars to work on conservation access in this country. And to me, you know, that's the way we we grow this great estate that we already own, right that six hundred forty million acres that you and I and everybody owns listening to this owns. This is the deal on making sure that when we have access to those lands, but also growing that a stay. And so I can't be more excited about this. And I think, you know, the the bipartisan fashions that is going on here, Like I like, Congress doesn't get together and do stuff that much anymore. And this is just it's again like I'm yeah, it's it is. It's relatively unprecedented. For decades and decades, I feel like we haven't seen anything like this other than you know, the progress made last year. Um, we're harkening back to those sixties and seventies kind of achievements back in that, you know, that sort of environmental movement time period. But but I want before we get into that, I gotta rewind the tape just a little bit and make sure we provide the right background for people that are jumping into this lake that aren't familiar. Um, you know, you and I talked last year after the dingle Johnson Neck passed about the l w CF, But I still let's just hammer it out one more time for people that aren't familiar. What does the Land and Water Conservation Fund give us? Like the quick spiel on that, and then can you catch us up to speed on and what have been last year? And then what you kind of just did, I guess, tell us what happens now if this passes, but give us that background really quick so you can sure. Yeah. So back in nineteen sixty four, uh, folks got together. There was starting to be oil and gas development that was happening in the Gulf of Mexico, and Congress got together and they said, you know, we're taken away from one resource. Let's give back from that to other resources. And so that's when the Land and Water Conservation Fund was really established. And back then I think it was like in the Senate. I don't know what the household was, but I think it's like one, you know that they've voted on this, and so overwhelming support from both sides of the aisle on this piece and what it does that takes exercise taxes from that oil and gas kind of piece and puts that into conservation. In all, all fifty states have used it, and I think it's like of the counties in America have had some land and water conservation project. And so what is that money? It's for. Money is youth for um, you know, swimming pools and tennis courts. It's used for fishing access sites. You know, on my home state of Montana, our fishing access sites are paid for by the Land Water Conservation Fund um. And then it goes for you know, some large kind of purchases and and to me, you know, those large purchases in particular, I can add to again that publican state of six and forty million acres. But almost even more essential is the ability to get to some of that inaccessible public land that you and I own right now that we can't get to. And this is like the tool basically to get us to that. And and so you know, it's universally been used again the county, and I think about like rural America in particular, where they don't have the tax base to build parks. This has been absolutely essential. You know my kin my kids in Missoula, Montana, they play on the soccer fields are paid for by the land Water Conservation Fund. And then we also use fishing access sites that are right in downtown Mizzoula that we're paid for by the Landing Water Conservation Fund. So to me, you know, this this is uh, it's it's pretty awesome. And what's been going on, you know until now this isn't passed yet. I think that everybody should understand that that you really need to call your senators. Um, and it's gonna go over into the house after that, but call your senators. And I think that number is two oh two to two four three one to one, and asked them to pass to get outdoors. Um, I think it's three four. It's it sent a bill three four two two And to me, um, we gotta get that done. But like again that this is we've had to go to the appropriations process every single year and so land Water Conservation Fund is only it's been authorized ninellion dollars, it's only been fully funded once at llion dollars and so through that this entire you know, like I guess career of the for existence of the landa water conservation fund. It's only been fund at once fully and so we have to go back every single year to Congress and beg and plead and you have to make you know, phone calls and try to get us as much as we can. And that has been ranged from about three hundred four hundred and fifty million here in the last recent past. And and now that goes away. So now this will be permanently rapized at llion dollars. And not only are we getting the land of Water controversial Fund, but we're also getting two billion dollars to billion dollars with the B for backlog maintenance on our public lands. And so that's national parks, that's your espicial life service, that's for service, that's growth land management like that will happen for five years and so that it won't address all the backlog maintenance needs that we have out there, but it will definitely make a big dent in that. And so that when you go to your public lands, you have the facilities, you have the roads that will make your experience and you know, a great one. And and so this is I mean, this is I can't emphasis enough how awesome this is. And none of this costs US tax players any money which comes off of oil and gas re suits, which I think was pretty rap. So so the Great American Outdoors AFT covers the the permanent funding all the l w CF, and last year the Dangle Johnson Natural Resources Act, you know, permanently established l w CF. Now we've got the permanent funding, and as you just said, now we've got funding for all this public land maintenance stuff like trail work, roadwork, facilities, etcetera, etcetera. All the stuff happening is it's it's amazing, but it's also a little bit head scratching in that just a year and a half ago or so, in the fall of two thousand and eighteen, we're worried that l w CF was gonna be gone. Right it expired, we couldn't get people to rally around, or at least we couldn't get politicians to extend it and keep it going. That happened when we saw the current administration put out their budget just a few weeks ago they proposed slashing Land Water Conservation Funds funding bent So just like a month ago they came out and said they wanted to cut the funding, and then this week or a couple of days ago, last week, Now they did, Now we want to fund it. How do you make sense of this huge turnaround, I mean, crazy flip of of events. How do you make sense of this? I think? I mean, I'll start with kind of like the sunset, which you talked about, that happened a year and a half ago, where kind of this this funding mechanism went away, and I think the angst that was felt by the people, Um, you know, I think there's been a huge education effort by back counts and anglers, and I think a lot of other organizations around man A water contribution funds And when that sunset, people understood what that meant and and so they're you know, the the ire that they shared with their elected officials. It was pretty extreme. Um you know, there was the whole shutdown that happens last year, and this current authorization happened pretty much right when they got back. And that was because when they were at home when it was during the shutdown, people were talking to them about this. They were picking up the phone, they were sending emails, and so that public pressure I think really made that happened last year with the with the Dingle Act, I would say that you describe it well. The administration, you know, came out with their budget, and you know, I would say, yes, it was, but it was basically zero outland and water conservation phone. And you know, there's this thing called big P politics, right, and I think that we should all be aware of that and how important that is sometimes to move certain pieces of legislation. And so what happened is that Senator Gardner from Colorado, UH, Senator Danes from Montana. They went to the White House and they said, we are in very tough senate races. We need a win really bad and what do we need. We need the Land and Water Conservations Fund. Now they don't go ask about the Land and Water Conservations one. I will talk about Mr Dane's particular Mr Dane's five years ago round numbers. I was talking about dismantling the way that Land Water Conservation Fund is actually done. And we, as well as others in Montana, we found them pretty hard about that and said we want to keep it the way it is. And so he came around and and and really listen to the people, which is what they're supposed to do, and he said, Okay, let's keep it the same now he is going to the President of the United States and asking for this to happen. And you know, it's a it's such an awesome case of the people's voice actually matters, and so they go to the president. You know, the President comes out with a tweet last week. I mean, think about how he tweets about a lot of stuff, but he tweets about the Land and Water Conservation Fund says, you know, Congress, bring me a bill and I'll sign up. And and that is like, I mean, it's it's just mind boggling how awesome it is and how powerful that is, especially juxtaposition when you just as you described and I just said, like they just zeroed this program out for political reasons. This is happening and I think, you know that doesn't happen in the vacuum. The people have made that happen. And so you know, Mr Gardner, I think he's down by eleven points right now. So hicken Looper in that race in Colorado. Uh, you know, Governor Bullock just joined the Senate race in Montana, and so you know Mr Danes is nervous about that piece. And because of that deadness happens and now, you know, I think there's has talked to Julia. People's are Government Affairs UM staffer out in d C right before this call. And we're at fifty eight co sponsors already, and you have to basically get to sixty to make this a done deal. And so I'm feeling super confident this piece, and you know it again is introduced on late Monday night and we have fifty eight close sponsors already. Like people understand how important this is and how important it is to their constituents. And the only reason they understand that is because we the people demanded it. And I you know, you asked kind of earlier about you know, what does this mean for other things? And and to me, it's you know, this momentum that we have right now that we enjoyed, you know about a year ago when we passed you know, land of Water Contribution Fund permanently and that you know a bunch of other land kind of a public land um provisions within that bill that was passed, Like this is a follow up to that, and I think people should really take stock and that their voice actually matters, Like this is not happened because you know, Congress got together and they said, man, you know, we should, we should, we should do this good thing. It was because the people demanded it, and you know, uh in that is that our voice still matters. It's kind of funny. Um. Sometimes I find or I think a lot of us find ourselves getting frustrated with public lands or conservation or protecting the environment becoming political. Like we we we express anger or angst over the fact that these topics are um political football's at times or so part of partisan. But this is a situation where it's actually I think the political nature of the issue, Like you said, we've made it so it's become a political issue so that they have to do what we say simply because they need the support across across the country in various different ways, and we are forcing the issue. So in this case, like yeah, you can look at this and say, oh, it's it's a political move. But I don't think we want to look a gift horse in the mouth. I think we should say, hey, we we forced a political move the benefited public lands and conservation. That's a great thing. Like you said, this probably wasn't like a change of heart for some people maybe, but it was a yeah, we better do this because people are demanding it. And in this case, we're making our representatives work for us, which is what we're supposed to do, right, absolutely, you know, and I think that you know, again, like when you know, Senator days, the Cenator Garter could have gone to the President and talked about any issue, right, whatever that issue is in this country, is that healthcare is a you know, immigration is an economy, whatever they were going to go say to the president, But they chose to talk about an issue that matters to all of us. And having our issues elevated as a top tier issue, you know, I think that you know, Montana, I think it's been like that for probably a decade now. And you know, that's that's my recent history. Maybe that was a part of us you know, maybe like public lands and kind of conservation was part of a history before that. But I think in my time that it's become a top tier issue in Montana, and it's becoming a top tier issue in Colorado. And and so know, the more that this is something that we raise to that level, the better, right And and and I think you're right, like I think that those political footballs, you know, I think about back to the monument review that happened on our national monuments. And now I'm really worried that you know, one president is gonna say monuments are awesome, and then president gonna say monuments are bad. We're gonna have this like football that gets passed back and forth that you're talking about um and that frustrates me. But this case, it is absolutely awesome. I think we should all revel in the idea that the president is talking about this and that two senators went to the President and said this is our top tier priorities. Like I like that is that's huge for us. And as I think of community and that bipartisan nature, you know, the you know of Republicans and Democrats getting together like like Mark tell me, I mean I don't I don't know another issue where they're coming together around this, maybe around the maybe beyond this virus exactly right now, right, like like they came together there, right, they got something done very quickly. But other than that, now they're not really coming together. And so what do they come together? And they coming together on public lands and why are they doing that is because of the you know, public lands don't care if you're a Democrat Republican, independent, libertarian. They don't care and we all use them, right, So it's like it's this universal kind of American thing and they got to listen to us. So I'm I mean, this is the president that this is setting. I think, Um, I'm knocking on wood. I'm sitting in a hotel and Omaha, Nebraska, I'm knocking on wood. But I think that the president that this sends it means nothing but good things for conservation is to move forward. And you make a great point about how this is pretty rare across the rest of our political world, across that's the country and a lot of issues. It's it's actually I just a couple of months ago wrote an op ed about this for The Hill and pointed to the fact that what we've seen over the last couple of years with public lands perfect example of how Americans can come together on things that matter by putting aside political labels and our team colors and roversus urban or ari i versus cabell as. We can set those things aside and work together and this radical idea of civility and compromise leading to good things. And and then this thing comes along and just perfectly puts the like a shining light on on the example of that that we can point to for now decades. I think, Um, But to your point, now, we need to get it past the finish lines. So before I ask you about anything else other than calling our senators, is there anything else we should do to make sure that the Great American Outdoors Act is past any any other recommendations, any other things we need to be thinking about keeping in mind, um or taking action on sure. So I think that that so the Senate is the first piece, um. And I think calling your senators is absolutely important. I think talking about this on social media mark is a super important thing. Um. And I think that you know, we all have our we all have our basis. I mean, this podcast is gonna, know, be listened to by thousands of people. And I think that like, we all have our networks after that, right, And so you know, if you're getting your teeth cleaning at the dentist that or if you're getting your haircut where at the barbershop, whatever you're doing. And I think talking about this piece and how awesome it is, I think it's a moment that we need to seize upon. Uh. And I think there's you Besides the immediate kind of piece of that I'm trying to get this legislation passes, there's this education moment as well, and and so there's that piece. Now the House is talking, their House leadership is talking right now is the Senate. And I think we're gonna have uh companion legislation that let's exactly like what happens in the Senate. And so I have very you know, a lot of confidence at the House will do the exactly the same thing that the Senator is doing. But don't think that, you know, once the Senate passes this, which I think will happen within the next two weeks, are they going tests next week? I think it'll be one of the first things that they do when they return. And Mr Danes has done a procedural thing where it doesn't have to go through committee. It just goes straight to the floor for a vote. But then we have the House, and I think, you know, while I I think the House will be supportive, I think that's another opportunity for us all to get engaged UM and and really can call our people UM that represent us. And then you know, it goes to the President. And what I would love is to have just these overwhelming majorities. I mean the President already you know in his tweet he said send me something, I will sign it, a full confidence that he's going to sign it. But I would love for that to go to him from the Senate and the House, just overwhelming majorities and that we can all kind of sit back and celebrate. So that's kind of like I feel like the I think the calling piece is super important. Um, you know, we have an email. I think we've sent almost ten thousand emails through our system right now at b h ah. There's that's such another opportunities to send emails. But I think that piece about talking about this to your friends and family and acquaintances, it's such an important deal. And I think there's a lot of people probably that don't know what the Land of Water Controvation Fund is. Um, there's a lot of people that probably think their voice doesn't count. And like, you start talking about this, that's this like momentum that we get and not only they get educated about what this is, but then they're like WHOA, Like our actual government is working for me, And I think that's what they're supposed to do. But I think there's a lot of disenfranchise with that right now. And and so I think the more we talk about this and then we get a big win, let's celebrate like it's like right, it's like it's a it's a big one. Yeah, there's something we said about revel reveling in that a little bit. And and like you said, again, seeing our voice does matter. And I think that's that's something I've been thinking a lot about. Is I do think that this is probably one of us things that when you read a book about the history of public lands and you're reading it in they'll be writing about this. They'll be writing about the late teens, in the early twenties and this movement, this moment um. What do you think? Tell me two things. Number one, what do you think that we've been doing well over the past few years that have led to this? And what are a few things that you think that we haven't been doing so well that if we want to keep the momentum, we've got to change anything that you can point to, Because we went from this point, you know, ten years ago, six seven years ago, where we were really concerned about our public lands in some cases being transferred just sold away, we have this serious rise of concern around it, and now here we are in with landmark positive public land progress. Um, what do we do well? What aren't we doing well? Enough? Great? First, I will read that book when you write like, I'm gonna hold you to that. Please do that. Um, But I think you know back to like what we're doing well? I think it's education then. And you know, I I get up at these pint nights or conferences or wherever I'm speaking, and you know, for the last seven years, I've you know, I've talked about this issue other land of Water Controversation fund, and that's you know, ten years or seven years ago. Let's say when I first started the vh A and a group of people, if I said, hell, how many people know about the land and water controversations? Raise your hand? There might be ten percent of the people in that room that raise their hand. Um, they did not know about this. And if I you know, I've I've got a event tonight here in Omaha. Um, and I'll ask that question. I almost guarantee you that like the people gonna raise their hand and they know about this issue. So what are we doing well? I think we're educating and I say that from back country owners anglers. I say that from Mark Kenyon. I said that's from meat eater. I feel like that's been like a uh a universal effort by our community is to educate all of us and the masses on what the Land of Water Conservation Fund is, on what public lands are, and what they mean to us, how they came about. You know, my my mentor Jim pause with which his eighty five birthday this last weekend and something he's always counted into me is like they got to know the story, they got another story. And once once people find out about how we got our public lands and that you know, it hasn't happened by accident, and they understand they gotta be a part of it. And so I think, what have we done well? I think education, Um, what have we done that hasn't worked so well? I think that it. I think we could always do better at the education, right. I think that that's you know, I don't I don't some of that, um, you don't want to pound in the people's heads that like they turned off. Like I think the education is like a thing that you get in doses, and it's more almost like osmosis. And it is like you shall learn this. Um. So I think we could be doing better there. Um. I think that that's a great question on what we could do better. I feel like the sportsman's community as a whole, like we could be just better advocates. And what I mean by that is that it's not enough to buy, you know, your license. It's not enough to like, you know, buy your guns and ammunition and all that money that you spend on your licenses and then a portion of those you know, proceeds from your guns and from your from your ammunition goes back to conservation. Like that's not enough. And I feel like like we need to be to do a better job about that piece. And the second piece I would say is that I don't think I think we're on the cost of it, um. But you know, I think we can do a better job reaching out to people that don't hunt and fish. And as our our numbers dwindle in this country as far as overall percentage of hunters and anglers compared to the you know, the overall population, like, we're never gonna We're never gonna you know, increase that necessarily. If we might, you know, we might get new hunters and anglers, but as far as the overall percentage is going to continue to go down. And so I think one thing we're doing way better is really working with folks that don't pull the trigger ripped lips, and and if we do that, then they understand like more about us and hunters and anglers and what we care about conservation, and then we get to know them better. And you know, if they're not just mountain bikers or climbers, they just want to kind of use the outdoors and don't really care if there's animals out there, don't really care about conservation. I think that shared understanding and that shared yes ethos, It's something I think we're missing a little bit right now, and so I think we could do a way better job there that That definitely seems from everything I've seen and learned over the years that we have to have that coalition approach. We can't tackle this thing on our own. We need the whole outdoor community. Whether you do our thing or do something else, we gotta find ways to come together. Um, So yeah, that's that's important. I'm curious about another thing going on here. Yeah, there's this is this is a huge win if it, if it gets past, we're riding on a high right now. But at the same time, if you look over the last handful of years, you can also point to a whole lot of slashes and cuts. And this place is open up to more drilling, and this place is going to be opened up to more logging, and this place is going to be cut out, and this place is gonna get roads. And it's this whole death by a thousand cuts thing that has been going on, and then you have a big win like this. Are you Are you still worried about the death by thousand cuts type of issues or do you feel like we're getting enough momentum that those things are going to come to halt as well? Or let me rephrase the question, um, are you word at all that we will be blinded by our happiness with this wind and forget about all these other smaller things that are happening more locally, um? Or I don't know makes sense of any of that? As you can now, I think I really enjoy the question. Um. Access is easy, right, like land and water controvation. Fond is all about, like access and growing this public estate and EASi people to rally around. I think the backlog maintenance piece that you know, Mr I'm referring to Mexico really pushed and that's why it's in the bill. Like like that's pretty easy stuff. It's it's really easy to like, Okay, we want that. And I what I hope mark is it's like a gateway drug, you know. I like, like we get we get a little bit of this juice, right, and I get excited, and like we get a win, and then we pivot that into you know, places like the Arctic National Wildife Refuge that's under threat, or the Boundary Waters is under threat, or the Clean Water Act they just got rolled back puts that risk. You know, Prairie a Postholes in particular, which is a duck factory of the world. Like I like those ones. I mean, I think those landscapes of Boundary Waters and the Arctic are probably pretty iconic. But when you get into like funding for our public lands, or when you get into like grazing kind of rules, or you get into like a Clean Water Act, like people just aren't as fired up about that stuff. And what I hope happens out of this is that that that we celebrate, right, I think it's super important for us to throw a huge party once this all gets done, um, and just revel in that piece that you know, you and I and you know, hopefully everybody listening to this was a part of. But then let's take that momentum and look at other issues, you know. And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say that, you know, the Clean Water Act is going to rise necessarily to the importance um that Land and Water Conservation Fund, But damn well should you know? Like that that's stuff that we should be doing and the people should be demanding. I mean, like clean water, Like why does that so hard to AVO came for? That should be a no brainer. And and so I Mark, I, you know, glass is always has full with me, and I have a lot of hope that the momentum that we're you know, creating, and I think from I think it started back with the push against Shape. That's when he, you know, Congressman Shape that'z may tried to sell three million acres. You know, was that three or four years ago? Like the sportsman's community rose up and they said hell no, and then he pulled it back and we were like WHOA, Like our voices actually do better, and then you know you have the vote. Last year, you know, the Permian authorized we had a water conservation phone, and then you know there are seven pages of that bill had a bunch of public lands protections in there, you know, like I think they they did mineral withdrawals on a site outside of Yellowstone and the mono drawls in the Metzu Valley and Washington and so like that momentum that we're having and that we have right now, like let's revel in it. But like let's like we can't sit on the couch or sit on the porch and clink our beers and then talk about this for the next three years. That we got a lot more stuff to do. And and this this whole thing is like it's a it's and if you look at history, and I think that's why Jim Pozzle's kind of that into me. This is that like it's not like we get to like get something done and then we just get to like, you know, wash our hands and we're done. Like this is a thing that constantly has to happen and we have to be engaged. And and to me, I'm hoping that's what comes out of this whole thing. Do you find there's this One of the things I learned through the process of writing my book was the fact that you kind of see that I can't remember where I heard this or where I read this. Someone I got this somewhere. They point out the fact that when it comes to protecting public lands or kind servation, Um, we have to if we win a fight, we have to keep on defending it. So if we protect a landscape or something, we have to keep on protecting, keep on protecting, keep on fighting, because there's constantly gonna be a tax on constant it's gonna it's never gonna end. On the flip side, if the anti public land are the folks that want to develop a piece of ground or something, they win, They win just once and there's nothing we can really do about it. They've they've we've lost that piece of ground or we've lost its pristine wilderness nature or whatever it might be. Um, we've got to keep going and going and going. It's like you said, it's a never ending fight. Do you find that depressing or invigorating? And like that's the kick in the ass that gets you up in the morning. How do you look at that kind of thing? Uh? Depends on the day, right, I think. I think sometimes you know, like myself personally, I feel overwhelmed and I feel like we're losing and I feel depressed. Um, there's other days where I feel that you and I are part of this like conservation movement that's you know, a hundred and thirty forty years old in this country, and how lucky are we to try to carry on that legacy and in this case that we're talking about today, actually build on it, Like how lucky are we? And so I have ebbs and flows there for sure. Um. But I think, you know, again, like I'm one of a glass aft full, and you know, I started looking at my you know, my young kids, you know, Sydney's eleven, Collins eight, and like, you know, all our job is right now is to pass. But we've inherited on in either the same way or better to them, so they have something to fight for, you know, And and it's it does seem daunting, it seems exhausting. Um, but man, you mean you wouldn't even be having this conversations. Those people had to come before us, right, and so we are key if we're doing what we're doing, and you know, it's it's it's about us find out who's next, you know, is that who's that next leader? Who's that you know? And again like no matter where you are on that spoke of kind of like this wheel that is spinning right, whether you are in the center of it as you know, a senator or whoever, or on the on the edges on somebody just made a phone call or send an email, Like you're part of this conservation kind of process, and it's important for us all to be a part of that. And so I have I have great hope, um ah, and I get interepiration from things like that we're talking about today that like actually we're gonna be okay. But I will say it, there's some days that I feel beat down, and um I think there's others that feel beat down to and I think that's natural. But like, man, we're we're in the fight, like right, like we're in the arena, and I think that's pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah, I kind of go back and forth on it, just like you. Um there's that Leopold line where he said the curse of an ecological education is that you live in a world of wounds. So the point being that if you once you start paying attention to this stuff, you notice all of the depressing things, the daunting things. Um. But then, to quote another more current person, uh Von Schnard always says, the best care for depression is action. And that's what I always am trying to remind myself, like whenever I'm upset about something or depressed about something when it comes to these things, just just do something. Maybe it's a phone call, maybe it's just a tweet, maybe it's talked to a friend. But that little bit of action I think is the best way to, uh to keep this stuff going. And you mentioned your kids. That's been the thing that I think lit a fire under my ass more than anything was having kids. I have a two year old now and then now four week old, so I have two boys and just totally changes your perspective. Um. I don't know. I don't want to get to wishy wishy about stuff, but it's it's really changed how I think about all this because it's not just about you know me any more. It's not about you, It's it's about the next generation in a really tangible way. Yeah, I think that perspective is really important and we're both fathers And congratulations by the way, Um, that is awesome. I hope you're sleeping so sounds a personalherent that's good. Um, But even people that don't have kids, man like like like, just realize again this story, but how we got our public lands and you haven't really, I mean, I think your book definitely go right in the middle of that, is it, like, let's know the story and then like how lucky are we to be able to carry that on? You know, and whether you have kids or not, you know, I think that, Um, it's pretty exciting that you that you that we are. You know, what we have here in the United States, when we have in North america's super unique and it didn't happen by accident and it's not gonna be caring for bactment either. And how lucky are we that we the people can dictate how that happens. And you know, if we don't, if we we you know, sit back on that porch and you know, drink that beer and they're like, oh, we're done now, Like we will lose it all, you know, we will lose it all. And um, we have to stay engaged. And I think that's actually I mean, that's an exciting thing. Um that we actually have the opportunity to do that. Right, there's many other countries in this world that don't enjoy the embarrassment of riches that we have, and and even if they have them, like, they don't have the ability to have a voice on how they're managed or what happens with those. Uh. Well that's public qualify for our public lands and public waters. And so I think about how luck you are and then stay engaged. That's that's my big message I guess for people. Yeah, we we do. Uh, we do have a pretty good speaking of opportunities. There's something I should have mentioned earlier. I want to get your perspective on what's the story on the Map Land Act. That's another piece that was just recently introduced, a related public lands. Um, can you give us a scoop on that. Yeah, So there's a lot of inaccessible public lands in the United States, you know, whether that's if you look at the map in Montana. You know, the when the railroads came through, they got every other section and so and they sold that privately, and so now you have you know, public land, private land, public land, private lands. You have situations like that already have situations where you have a piece of public land, um that is donated by private land and you know, and so you have you think about that in the map, that's that that that square that has nothing but private land all the way around it. And so we have these inaccessible public lands in the United States, and I think that, you know, we're trying to figure out like where these things are and then figuring out like how do we get to them. And I think the Map Act does that. And you know, things like the Land of Water Controverations one that we're talking about earlier, or flip flu which is like the worst acronym in the world, the Federal Land Transaction Facilitation Act, UM, like they help us get to these places, but we don't, like we're trying to identify where those things are. And so I think that this helps us do that in a much better way. Um. And you know, on our public lands that belong to all of us. And I think there's cases and you're gonna hear me say this, and um, I hope people hear this strongly, but like there may be same places that you know, we want to divest. There may be some public land that doesn't make sense for us, the people to own. But let's figure out what those places are and let's figure out those places that actually really matter to us. And and I think you know that's that's part of this process that we're talking about. Do you worry it all about the slippery slope argument to that where if we start saying we're okay with some of that divester in in there in the right places, in the right ways, that folks will take that inch and make it a mile when we're not looking. I think, do I worry about that? Yes? Um? But am I confident in the people? Absolutely? And so you know I think that again, I mean it comes back to the basic for the crux of this whole conversation. So we have to stay engaged and we have to be educated on what's going on. And so if that stuff that is happening, you know, on the dark of night, Yeah, it makes me really freaked out if that's happening in a public process again, where we're deciding kind of you know, what's important or what is something that doesn't that doesn't necessarily make sense for us to have in public ownership, Like, as long as that's happen in a public way and we're engaged. I am totally comfortable with that. And so I think what we have to stay vigilant about is, you know, things like you know, when Mr Schaefitz, you, Mr Schaefitz, we introduced that bill to sell three million acres. He had done that before, UM, but nobody really get attention, right, he hadn't had the pushback like he got. And so when that actually happened, and you know, Joe Rogan and Steve's like, pick this up. I changed the game, man, And it's because people are paying attention. So to me, you know, I think it's just we have to stay vigimin um and so I don't I don't mind the process at all. I think that again, it's a good conversation to have, and we're willing to have that conversation, you know from back on Jenner's angers. I'm willing, you know, as the CEO, to have that conversation. Let's do that in a public way versus kind of like these um potential like kind of backroom, backroom, backroom deals. And if we if we do that, I'm I'm confident we'll be fine. Yeah. So so then tell me this, what's we're we're going to rally the troops. We're going to get our Senators to pass this, We're going to get the House to pass their version. President is going to fall through on his word, and this is gonna become a law. It's gonna be a huge win. What do you anticipate being the next rallying point we we we said we talked to you mentioned possibly the the issue around the Clean Water Act. There's everything going on with the Boundary Waters. There's the art of National Wildlife Refuge getting opened up. There's risk the Bay continue to be at risk of the mind, there's the Tongus National Forest with the role less rule. There's the whole Bears Ears thing that's been going on for years now. If you had to point out what you think might be our next major rallying point, what do you think that would be? What should we turn our because we're kicking ass, we're kicking ass and taking the names these last couple of years. Where where should we turn our attention to next? I think it's a great question, mark, and I think I think the iconic landscapes that you just described are absolutely what we need to turn our attention to. And you know, the there as many things that we could talk about right now kind of still that are happening at the federal level. And well that's like what the the next farm bill and conservational reserve program or you know againting clean water. I think those are major major issues. But as you said earlier, like we only have to lose once, right, like the Boundary Waters that mine goes in, right that changes that landscape forever. Bristol Bay, you know that mine goes in up there, like that changes that landscape forever, like we don't ever get that back. And so I think, you know, I think for me personally, I think our organization, and then folks listen to this. I think about those landscapes that are important to you and and really I think these iconic places like the boundary waters like Bristol Bay, like Congus, like the Arctic National wal Life Preftage. And I've never been to the Arctic National Life Prefuge, but holy cow, do I want to protect this because it's like this, it's like this dream of mine to go up there, right Like, I just like this this special place that belongs to you and I and everybody on this you know, let's listening to this and we may never go there. I may never go there. The Holy Cow? Is that? Like what a what a special thing that we have and and why would we try to defile that? And so I think, like I think turning our attention to these iconic landscapes. You know, I have been in the underwaters. Um, it's just this amazing, amazing, amazing play is the number one visited wilderness in the in the country. Um, it's I'm taking my kids there in August this year. Like that place, dude, is like and if we all turn our attention to that, like we did on this Land and Water Conservation Fund, like we protect that place for all future generations. Like all we have to do is like get that minimal withdrawal you know is south of there. That's all we have to do, and then let's protected forever. Like we have to worry. We can put that one aside. And I think like that, you know, and I think Bristol Bay. I mean we again we talked about these landscapes. I think finding those landscapes that are important to you, and you know I talked about earlier with the public lands package that was passed last year, like the minimals draw off and the Mentel Valley, the minimal draw outside of Yellowstone. I find those places that are key to you and turn your attention to that and be like a dog on a bone and like, don't let that thing go and um use your voice. And I think you know that I would, Saul. I suggest to anybody that's listening to this that I'm gonna suggest to like my North American board and the staff, that we really pivot into and really take this woementum and look at these you know, special landscapes um, because if they're defiled, we don't ever get that back. And you know, if land a water conservation fund didn't pass, will that be horrible in a lot of ways? Yes, But is that going to be you know, we're really gonna lose something in a lot of ways. You know, like this is a huge opportunity with that. But these landscapes, man, if if you if you lose these special places, you never ever get it back. And I don't I don't ever want to be you know, on a phone with you or in person talking about Man, remember that thing we tried to do on that landscape and it didn't work out, And now there's like this huge problem. Like I don't. I don't want to have that conversation, you know, I really don't. And so I think that's there's a long way to say, and like let's turn our into those special places. Yeah, I'm right there with you. And the Boundary Waters is a great a great example of a place that needs are our love intention After getting to see it last year, I'm I'm smitten just like you are. That place is special. So I love that word. By the way, smitten is one of my favorite words. Thank you for saying that. So so maybe you already answered my last question, but we got to revel a little bit in these places we love so much. What public land adventure of your own coming up in are you the most excited about? You know, I think I did just mention that I think the Boundary Waters and it's not for me, it's for my kids and my wife. Um, you know I I we just got back from Mexico and everybody listener is gonna think that all I do is just go travel and I'm gonna be awesome places, which was not the case at all. I mean, I got cell phone here and uh in typewriter hands. Um, but we're going to go into the Boundary Waters in August, and you know what I'm excited about is like, you know, showing the landscape to them that they heard me talk about a lot. But I can't wait for that first fish, for calling, or for Sitney to catch like like that that excitement that they feel when they do that, Like I'm living vicariously through them, like I'm a little kid again, and I just so I'm I'm man that trip. I'm like just chomping at the bit around. We just put it on the calendar, you know, in our lives, like if something goes on the calendar actually going to happen. You know, there's so much important soccer and school and like whatever. You know, there's all in my travel, there's all these things. But once we bought it out on the calendar, we're gonna do it. So that's what I'm most excited about, is going up to the Bounderwater. That's awesome. That's definitely on my list. Once the boys get old enough, I definitely want to take them out there too. That was the one of the first things me and my buddies were talking about while we were there last fall, was, oh, we gotta get back with the family some day, so pretty special place. Well, can you do me one more favorite, can give us that phone number one last time for how people can call their senators to make the g A O Act, the Great American Outdoors Act Reality. What was that? Absolutely So it's two oh two to two four three one two one, and then you're gonna get a switchboard and all you need to do it just tell them where you're from and then ask them to connect you to your senator. And you'll have to make two phone calls because you can't just you can't just pass them through on both. But like that's all you have to do, ask them, uh, you know, to pass this bill as soon as possible. Perfect, all right, Land, Well, thank you for keeping us informed, thanks for helping us stay engaged, and uh, I'm gonna keep on pulling you on here once a year for good news. Okay, Well, let's uh let's make a point that like like again that we're getting that done right, So I would love if you and I are getting on the phone once a year to celebrate. That's a pretty cool thing, but I think we should do it, alright. Thank you for the time. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Mark, and that's gonna do it for us today. Thanks for joining in, thanks for listening. Make sure you call, you email, you tweet, you Facebook, you go knock on the doors of your senators, and make the Great American Outdoors Act a reality. We've got the power, we've got their ear. Let's just make it happen. So until next time, thank you, and stay wired to hunt.