00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host Mark Kenyon. In this episode number two D and today in the show, I'm joined by freelance writer and whitetail hunter Pat Durkin to get back to the basics of white tail deer and how they see, here, smell, and survive. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X, and today in the show, I'm joined by Pat Durkin, who is an outdoor writer and avid deer hunter, and I want to have him on the show to discuss dear themselves, not just you know, all the fancy strategies to chase him and the gear to help us kill them, but actually just talk about these animals and how they do what they do. And I thought Pat would be the perfect guy to do this because he's an actual journalist. He doesn't just whip up an article based off of his own crazy ideas like I do. Sometimes. He actually meticulously researches his topics and he consults multiple experts and then reports back on what the science says or what the real data says, and when that has come a fascinating insight into what makes white tailed deer tick. So that's what we're chatting with Pat about today, all that he's learned over the years about deer as he's researched and study these creatures, stuff like how they see and how they smell, and how they hear and lots lots more. So with no introduction today, we're just gonna get right into it. So let's take a quick break to think a couple of partners, and then we will get chatting with Pat. All Right, I'm excited to have on the line with me today, Pat Durkin. Welcome the show. Pat, he Mark, thanks for having me. I really really appreciate it. It's been fun over the last a year or two to get to chat every once in a while as you're working on different articles and things and with your involvement with Mediator now, but this will be our first chance to do an extended long conversation, So thank you for doing this. Well, you bet I was looking forward to for the last couple of weeks. Yeah, me too, And I guess what brought you to mind for me? As someone who I thought we should have a chat with. Is that so often when you look out there in today's hunting media, or even listen to podcasts or even sometimes this podcast, we get so hyper excited about the latest and greatest strategy, some new trick, some new trend, whatever it might be. Um. But when I go and I look at so many of your recent things that you're writing and focusing on now, you do a great job of bringing things back to what really matters the most, which is the animal itself and research about the animal. And I don't know, you just have this extremely deep well of information and experience with dear, giving your background, and then you do such an inter in jab of talking to other people that researched dear that you just get these perspectives that I think are really really helpful. Um. So I kind of want to talk about a lot of things related to that. But before we get into Dear, I do want to make sure we lay a little bit of groundwork for people who maybe aren't familiar with you, which is which would be shocking if they're not. But if they are new to Pat Dirkin, can you give us the cliff notes on kind of how you got to this point, what you've done in the dear world and what you're doing now. Yeah, the thing i'd say too is I've never um, I've never hurt or whatever insults of people haven't heard of me. Because the one thing I've I've always knowing about writing reporting is that most people don't read by lines. And this goes back to my days I started that. I started at the Ashcosh Northwestern newspaper in east central Wisconsin back in still work UM in college, and I always remember the first thing I wrote for the college newspaper back then, UM was a column about UM. I think it's about hunting or fishing. I can't even remember anymore. But anyway, the thing I remember about Mark is that when I went to I was all proud and happy about getting my first piece of UM writing published. But then I went to UM. When I went to back to the newspaper office that next day, I remember seeing something. I'd used the newspaper as a door jam to keep the door from from bossing behind them, and it was just discincidentally. They punched, you know, a little door um nob part sticks and a little clasp sticks into the door right at that point where my face was it was punched right through and I always kept that in mind that will have many uses for newspapers. And you're you're quickly forgotten, then you're often overlooked, you know, so I'm not I'm not heard at all when people say I never heard of you until this, so that you know, and even today, I read a lot stuff and they'll um they I've had people quite often tell me I was reading this article or a Danis Stirt describing the article, and I'll say, yeah, I wrote that. And it's happened so often my career where you just cannot have um. It keeps you humble, it keeps you know. I realized there's many people out there who have much higher profiles than I do, and I just don't worry about too much but to finish my little bio real quickly. I worked in the Oscarsh newspaper for eight years, and I was mainly UM. I did all sorts of jobs. I covered school boards that covered high school sports and and my whole um thing though, was that I always wanted to get into the outdoors beat. So the reason I was in sports for the for the first couple of years is because sports editors in those days always controlled the outdoors page and most newspapers, you know, thirty years ago, forty years ago, I had at least the outdoor page once a week, and I always realized that I'm well off when I get on that page and right right for that paper, I need to learn learn the sports up of his name, or work with him. So that's kind of how I got going on, and then eventually I did. There are things in the newspaper. I was always doing the outdoors, but I also did things like on the school board. I also covered city hall a little bit and the police and um fire type of things. You go out and have to cover a spot news, so it's really a good background for reporting. And then um along the way when my um little breakthroughs, I guess was I learned that one of the best sources for conservation information in our region was a guy named A Whole Factor And l um was the editor of Deer and Deer Hunting magazine that the original one of the original fhowners of it. He and Jack Brower founded the magazine back in the late seventies and it was just up the road in Appleton, Wisconsin. And by the time I came around in the newspaper. These guys had Deer and Deeringing Magazine rolling as a nash some magazine, and so I would interview Al on various conservation issues going out in the area because he was always a real good citizen, always involved in things. And eventually they must have been reading my stuff and how I covered um the issues that the Al was involved in, because they brought me up one time for an interview and about the like in late and then I started working for them two or three weeks later, and that got me into the end of the hunting industry basically. And so I worked at Deer and Deeringing Magazine for eleven years. I was this editor for most of that time, and along the way, one great you know, one thing I didn't know what the time mark, which I always looked back on was. The last fascination was that I didn't realize that. But each time I was taking these jobs, first newspapers, then a magazines, I was kind of writing the tail end of a big deal. Newspapers were still really strong going into the eighties, and by the end of the eighties there was and the towel off and the magazines we're kind of in the same thing during the nineties, you know, we're our magazine circulation peaked in about and by the time I left in two thousand one, it was it was it went out a city downcolle klient tomorrow. How hard I worked, how much effort I put into it, things were sliding. And by the time I left in two thousand and one, the Internet was starting to come along and people were spending more time doing online stuff and even things that as basic as email news others were getting We're getting a little popularity. So all on the way I UM, I was kind of without realizing and jumping one one step ahead of the um the downward curve. So that time I got in the freelancing, you know, like about twenty years ago, I was UM. I was pretty well situated to do freelance work. I had a lot of contacts and new people in the academic world that we're doing a lot of deer research, and so that that realized served me while when I started freelancing. That's what I've been doing now for since since two thousand one, late two thousand one, and I saw I do a lot of work for the archery trade Association. Still I'm kind of their chief chief copy ofitor, and I still write my weekly newspaper column. And I have been writing for me either not the last year and a half, and I write regular articles for American Hunter magazine, and so I stayed really busy. So you've been writing about or reporting on deer and hunting related topics for what would you say, thirty years more than that? Yeah, yeah, you know, I've been. I've been. I think one of my first articles in the outdoors is a fishing article on some local tournament guy, and then after that. UM. One thing, one thing I always I always looked back down with a lot of pride, is that even though I was an outdoor reporter and doing things from everything from fishing reports to you weekly fishing reports to um or just covering conservation meetings, the thing that I always took time for I'd take the Asian four every year was deer hunting up from the Upper Peninsula, Michigan, which is three and a half hour drive from from where I've lived, you know, in central Wisconsin now for how many years, And so that was a big part of my um AH. When I took vacation during my UM um newspaper days. Almost I spent at least a week up in up in the up Um guns during the gun season, which way was opened November November, and so that was really a cool thing to do, just and it kind of got me um interested in something that one thing I should say, mark, because one thing I always fascinated me about about deer hunting was always the people's side of it. I always loved things like the deer camp stories, the things that kind of brought people together and got them hunting. And I always I was enjoyed reading about a long time ago deer hunters and um the most influential book for me growing up. As you know, when I first started hunting, I was about fourteen. UM, I always remember reading Larry Colder's book Shots at White Tails, and it's been a book I've kept in my library ever since then. UM. You know, it's just to me, it's fun to kind of go back and read because every now and then, because it wasn't um, they weren't doing things like hunting scrapes, they weren't worrying about rub blinds, all these things that um we've kind of um taken into taken into a big part of our strategy sessions. They did drives and they did I'm still hunting and stand hunting. That was a budget, you know, and so that that's kind of my history. I just um, I love all that. All that. Um it gets that the researchers called human dimensions. Yeah, that is fascinating stuff. On the on the on the topic of books, are there any other of those classic books that you still point to? Is something you recommend to folks so that you like to grab off your shelf ever once in a while and look at um I remember finding I was up at my family deer camp this I guess it would have been earlier this spring. At the bottom of a stack on beneath the table was one of the one of the original books from the I never know if it's Benoit's or Benewit Brothers, but I think it's How to Bagage and it was it was really old and falling apart. I was like, wow, this is this is pretty cool. It's like thirty years old and this is what my grandpa was reading when I was a baby. Um Yeah, that was kind of neat to see. Are there any books like that that you still look at? And that one yeah, that one. There is really a classic in the literally Benoit's book Um I I still have my copy from I think it was part of the At book club back in the seventies, that probably mid seventies, late stefenties. And one of the one of the cool things about working at Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine during the nineties was um they had a book division at the at the publishing hall. UM then owned Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine, So I was able to bring back and kind of update a little bit UM like Shots at White Tells You did their own edition of Shots at White Tails, and and we also we tried to get permission from the from Larry Benoit to redo his his original book, Um you know that how to Get the Biggest Buck of Your Life whatever was called, Yeah, how to Bag the Biggest Buck of your Life, I think with the title, and it's just a real straightforward um book about his his still hunting and how his family would go out and get on a track and basically stalk, you know, deer based on what I saw the foot the footprint, and it was one of those unfortunate things where um, you know, we're we wanted to reprint the book, but then there's just too much, too many, too many obligations and too many um past differences between Larry and the co author of the time, and we just couldn't make it work. But then we came up with an alternative. We're a writer named Bryce Tolesy spent some time with them, Larry and his family, and did I think I think they did one or two more books. I think with the Benoit's during the nine nineties, really two thousands, So in fact, I um during that process, I sent my copy of the original book to Larry and asked him to sign it for me, and and it was it's kind of a curious thing he wrote back to me, sent the book back and nice little wrote a nice little tribute to me. And then uh, they said something like, I'm sorry you couldn't take time to um stop by and visit when you're in Vermont last week or that last summer. And I don't know who he confused me with, but I've never been to very much in my life. So it's one of those fun things you you you you know that happened to you once a while, were someone uh for a reason confusedly with someone else, and so I have that inscription on my Larry A White book. Uh So, speaking of then these these classic books, these classic resources of Sony people looked on, UM, I do feel like you have now gotten your own fingerprints on many of the resources and things that people are now looking back on UM that aren't that old at all or even new now to get this new foundation with people today, I think new hunters that are trying to learn about deer and deer hunting, if they're turning the Mediator right now, for example, or many other places that your written works are at, UM, you know they're seeing some really good foundational, dear related content that I've really loved from you. You've done a handful of pieces now, Yeah, of course you've done a handful pieces now kind of examining white tail one oh one, kind of biology, some about the senses of deer, and I want to kind of start there, because we very rarely ever talked about that anymore. It's always like, how to find the best pinch port, how can you track you know, trail camera data and find patterns and so on and so forth. We never rewind back to the beginning and start talking about what can these dear smell? What can they see? What should we be thinking about? Um, So that's kind of where I want to start. Pat, Let's talk about the deer's senses. You asked me this question a couple of months ago, and I want to get right back to you, which is, how would you rank a deer's senses from most important or most beneficial to them down to the bottom. Well, I should say, um, and I mean that's real, sincerely, Mark, is the one thing I've liked about um my career. The things that I find interesting is that I've one thing I've learned along the way, and I really learned it really quickly, was that I might I love deer hunting and I love fishing, but but I've realized quickly that, um, there's some guys out there who always refer to them as the Brett Fires and Michael Jordan's of deer hunting, and the guys who really are good at it. I mean they might not be able to tell you what tree, what kind of tree species? There? Their stand is located them, but damn they know how to hunt. They just there. I would say they're predators, They're they're guys that really lock onto stuff and they sense stuff and they can't even put it in the words sometimes. I mean, I've seen many examples of that. You asked them questions about, um, you know, what are you seeing or what are you looking at here? What made you sit in that tree? And they struggle to explain it. It's it's really interesting. So I guess, I guess what I'm saying is I've always I've never considered myself the expert. I was considered myself the guy who can talk to experts and kind interpret stuff and read research. I mean, I've always liked, and this is I think an odd thing. I've always liked standing in conferences where these UM graduate students and deer researchers present their findings, and then interviewing them afterward and asked them questions about things I didn't understand, because I just find it interesting the things they can they can learn about white tales, you know, scientifically. But then I also realize there's some things about deer that will never fully understand. Because the thing I talked about, and I think a couple of different articles I wrote for Meat Eater, is that like when it comes to this UM the sense one of the reasons I call you's got because I I really, I really, over time realized that Mark Kenyon is a real nice, real nice hard hard and hardcore practical way of deer hunting. Word. He doesn't read too much into things that he can't really nailed down. But boy, he's he's um. He knows, he knows his strength to weaknesses and how to apply them. And I always find that's really important to get the best deer. And there's typically know how to um put stuff, you know, in the use out there in the woods. So but to answer your question, I've been um stumbling around here with that. But to answer your question, I am one of the reasons I called you on that recent one one about um interpreting you know, what what deer, what deer can smell, and how how well they hear, how well they see. I ask you these kind of questions. I like to hear what you think and the and we talked us recently about how well did your here and where do you rank that? And when you said that you rank you know they're able. Their ability to smell is number one, I thought, I I can buy that. I I've seen it too many times where deer can just pick off a little bit of scent when you when you think, how the heck could they have smelled that? And even her here hunters talking about well do they have a six stent? Because there's no way they could have smelled me. And the thing that I find fascinating about there's no way. When people say there's no way they could have done this or that, I think you're really not not really taking an account to many things that can go awry in the deer woods. You know, the way that a scent can swirl around and move in a direction that you don't expect you just because the winds blowing in your face at the at the in the tree stand you're in, doesn't mean that thirty yards down the hill, it's it's catching a little eddy and swirling back up in a way that they can pick up this a little bit of a scent off off you. And and and actually, um, I mean i'd be able to pinpoint you, but get pretty close to knowing whatever it was, this isn't good. And they start getting they started getting spooky. So anyway, I I agree to when you when you I don't and and try, I think you'd probably figured out from my interviews. I don't try to steer you into what I think. I want to hear what you think. And so when you said that, I thought, that's kind of way I think too, that number one is the cent And and then there I look at you made a stird point that I just loved was set and from there, if they see something and they hear something, the first thing they're gonna try to do is verify with their nose. If they can do it, they're gonna verify with their nose. And I thought, yeah, I've seen that too many times to not agree with that. So that's where I guess, and I agree on that pretty wholeheartedly that it's number one. And then that probably i'd say, Um, I couldn't tell you for certain if was sight or hearing, because I've been bustets many times by bolt and but the one that one that that, UM, I am just fascinated by. How U with the hearing the way that I've always loved watching deer's ears, the way they turn, and I remember that was probably the first thing I saw a deer at close range when I was like fifteen sixteen years old, hunting from a tree for the first time and looking down a deer and watching an approach. That's one thing I noticed was those ears were just constantly moving, constantly checking things out. So I guess I kind of leaned towards the ears as being number two. But I then again, they're so good at detecting movement that I don't I don't discountact either. Yeah. Yeah, they certainly have got a heck of a package of tools to survive. Between those three centses, there's no doubt about that. Let's let's focus on smelling first, on their sense of scent um. I know you've done a lot of research and not necessary research, but read about a lot of research and also been out there in the field and seeing a lot of things that I'm sure I have indicated to you that they have an incredible sense of smell. But does anything stand out as you've talked to different experts about their sense of smell or different researchers, anything that stands out to you that helps kind of communicate just how unique their sense of smell is or how they smell. I mean, it's one thing to say they can smell really good. It's another thing to quantify that in some way or to help us try to understand that what stood out to you, um when you've examined them. Yeah. The guy I almost always interview at some point on these two kind of topics topics is on Grant Woods, Assouri. Yeah. I know you've had Grant on your on your podcast. And one thing I've I really value greatly is my own credibility. I mean, I I don't go off and I really make an effort to quote people um accurately. And I've taken up, I screw up, I admit it, and I find a way to um correct that. But one of the guys I've always respected because he's just a role again, down to earth guy who understands this stuff and reads it more about and you know, Grant not only comprehensive, better, he remembers the details. I tend to forget all the otle finor finer details, but Grant doesn't. But Grant made a great comment to me for this recent Mediator article where he he said, um, something the effect the deer can specify the age, the amount, and the origins of each each meat, vegetable seasoning. If you get a cast role dish. He made this great point where he said, you have a cast role just cooking up there in your kitchen, and you can you'll you'll take a whiff and go my mom's making cast role or my wife's making cast role, Whereas a deer can get that same whiff and basically specify how much meats in there, where it came from, what animal grew, maybe even the age of that meat, Um it came out that out that animal, the seasonings in the dish, and they can gauge things like the probably even that the temperature of that stuff, as as us cooking in there and how it's distributed, and we're boxed exactly in the house it's coming from without ever having stuff put in there. And so I think they have that, and I don't think grants exaggerating. I think they really have when you look at how many um scent receptors they likely have in their nose and all these factors that go into it. That one thing I loved about UM this piece on for Meat Eater when I got writing about this was it's it's cool to me to think that we have really nailed down things like um the dogs, you know, and dogs, dogs have so much practical application for humans where We use dogs in so many different ways that there's been lots of research in the what dear what what? Dogs can smell how many cent receptors they have in their nose and then um. But then we don't really have that for deer because well, deer, as much as we enjoy hunting them, they don't have the practical application in the field. You know, it's police work tracking down suspects wherever it might be that dogs do so. Like so you look at a human nose and they figure that the human nose has anywhere from ten to fifty million cent receptors in there. That in the east cent receptor is kind of specialized little unit that can detect different sense, just just one specific sense, and but we have so many of them. It gets this whole array of sense that we can kind of distinguish. And most of us can point to someone in our life that can smell better than we kind of in my case, I would look at my wife, and my wife can can pick out orders and scents and and tell you what what vegetable. There's those kind of things, and I always struggle with that. But you know, so we have figure if the human has fifty million cent receptors. And you look at a bloodhound and a bloodhound they have like um, some estimates up to four billion cent receptors in their nose. So when they need a bloodhound on a human track, they figured they figure out real quickly on the direction that travel. Um. Basically, um, you know which comes into play when someone tries to double back and a bloodhound, the bloodhound instantly figures out wood stunt um, which part of that foot track is, which footprint was made most recently. They can tell that just by smelling it. Which is the most what's the hottest scent? So that's um, I guess where I I just love that kind of stuff. I love reading about and interviewing people who have done these tests and figure out how these how these dogs are will smell so well. Then Grant going back to Grant Woods again. So I asked Grant, well, what do you think can smell better? We don't have that kind of pinpointed information on on a deer stunt receptors. You haven't mapped out the dere is. No wants to know what part of that nose a smelling nests for part of a smelling that And Grant me this great point, he said, You know, I dear can't smell better, can't detect sense better than a dog. How would they survived all these eons in a rover They're being hunted by coyotes, um and wolves. You know they must be able to smell there in those creatures if they're able to evade them this long and actually, um, you know, survived despite heavy predation in some cases. Interesting point. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, given that, given that way, and we know this, um, what's the right way to st We know this intellectually as humans, We know they have this tremendous level of of scenting ability. But then oftentimes we still try to fight it. We still try to find ways to defeat a white tail's nose. And you kind of two schools of thought these days. There's one school thought that says, do everything you possibly can and and this is kind of what I typically air towards. You know, spray your stuff down, do the sent free shower, store it outside, tryo zone, try this thing that I try it all. At least you can maybe help yourself a little bit. And the other school thought is you're never going to deer's nose. Why even bother just focus on playing the wind right and then it doesn't matter. Um, what do you think, where do you fall on that pad or where does your research point you towards? When you talk to all these different people. Can you defeat it in any way? Is it even worth trying? The point, the point I make, and I do believe this um, is that you can. You can knock down your sent enough to where you confuse them, where you make them think you're farther away than you actually are. And I remember being able to pick up on that with my own two eyes sort of speak back and probably like the mid mid the late nineties, and um, this is back when Yeah, I remember, Mark, this shows you. I'm really aging myself here. But one of my first trade shows I attended was proud of about nineteen ninety one when sent blocks first came out and Greg Sussimon was Greg Sussman, the guy who phoned in the Centlock company had like a little ten by ten booth at um what was then the Bull Hunting trade show, and he was doing the scent that this um test to cash show people the technology he was using where he put different scents in a jar and then covered the jar jar jars with um His scent fabric, which in those days it's kind of it's fun to look back into stuff. And I wish I would have kept Mark, I mean um His Greg's original stuff, because if it looked like but basically dark pajamas almost something like they um well, like you know, just something like the Ninjas of the Ward made me. You know, so this the stuff you'd you put these these these these the sunlock fabric pajamas on and then put your hunting clothes over top of them. And one thing that I remember a couple of different times, I'd be sitting on an edge of a field up in a tree, and you watch a deer way off in the distance austin pick us nose. They're down windy, you they pick up the nose and they just certain waiting that nose back and forth in the air like they're like you could tell they're confused, like they can they can detect something, but they're not alarmed. And I saw a couple of different times where dolls and young bucks were worked their way across that field the nose in the air, sniffing and sniffing and sniffing and sniffing. Trying to figure out where that samella is coming from. The new that they knew it was was danger, but they weren't scared. They were more like curious knowing they're getting like there. They thought, you're off in the distance that you know, farther than you they were. And eventually they get within um tuner yards center fifty yards before they started getting a little a little more and see where it's going. To think this might not be good. But I thought, you know, God, in the past though, you'd see that kind of behavior and they just get that smell, smell, get that sentence be gone. So I thought, you can't tell me it has no impact. Now, can you make it where you're invisible? No, that's again where I am now in the modern era. Quote guys like Mark Kenyan, because I think one of your great quotes in that article is that you know, you just want to kind of make it to where you can't can't decide for sure what it is that's that's UM providing that the extra little little um, the um sent suppressing UM effort. But there's but you can't pinpoint it. But not you know, you enough these things the shotgun approaches you described it I think I buy that I've seen enough of it where I don't I really get kind of testing. When guys say all that stuff bologna that doesn't work, I think, no, there's there's enough good science in there that's been tested by the university, like Ruckers and elsewhere where the scent lock stuff. It does trap sense, it does hold scent, and you can reactivate the stuff to point where it'sorbs more ascent, and so you can you can make a difference there, So I won't discount that where I think most hunters fail, and I put myself in this category. It takes real, considered, consistent effort to knock down that scent all the time, and white tail hunters can do it because you know we can. We can kind of they can choose where we're gonna hunt. We can kind of plan each stand time Age tell me sit in the stand. We can kind of plan for it and work around where it gets tougher to do. I think in Western environments where you're you're moving constantly, you're you're you're spotting a stalk, and you're glassing all these kinds of things, you're building building the sweat, it's much harder to control they're se in that setting than than it is in a typical bow hunters in white tail country. So to me that all those kind of things factor into this. So I never I don't UM. I still try to spray down, you know, to use the scent scent killing sprays and that kind of thing, because I figure, what's the harm at least, you know, it doesn't hurt anything to try it. And and I and I have seen these nice little tests that we do with the human knows where you people do have a harder time detecting things that have been sprayed down. And I figured, well, you know you're playing you're basically playing percentages. You know, if you're gonna if you could have a choice between um A two percent effectiveness and zero effectiveness, well of course you can try the two percent or three percent, and it's a little edge at the right time in the right place, and time might just be enough to make it work. So why would you discount that? Exactly? Definitely agree with that. Now, what about the latest trend in the scent control world, which is Ozone. Right, there was the Ozonics and then they're Scent Crusher, and then is all these other companies coming out different ozone devices and stuff. Have you been able to talk to any researchers or see any science that backs that up, anything in your research that points to how effective that is to any degree, I'm not really you know there where you get as you can figure out anyone can figure out real quickly, is that it's hard to prove the effectiveness of this kind of stuff out in the field. And so like to me, I I look at the ozone idea and that this um these different different devices that you know, UM based like ozonics, I think it makes sense to me. I mean, I guess the thing that convinces me, Mark is when you can do a good practical example of how that stuff, how that stuff came to be. And I think the story they use that it makes sense to me that it was developed apparently by a guy who was was he like a veterinarian or working or doing ne necrop necrop SE's on dead animals and use this zone to make it um. So it was quite so stinky over the operating table, over the examining table, and by blowing this ozone across the table and killing that scent or whatever it does, destroying that scent you know, you think, well, you know, I can see where if you could put put the device like that position over your over your head so as it blows off from the tree stand, it's disrupting your your your scent distribution. And I guess the way I look at it is UM. During my Navy days, I remember taking all his Fasse firefighting classes, and they always talked about this foam they use in firefighting doesn't really put the phone put the fire out, but it keeps the oxygen from reaching the flames, so then effectively, as smothers that it cuts it off. I think, while you can do that in a in a sun stream with ozone, it makes sense. And but as far as you know, when you're trying to improve this stuff, that's where it is tricky, because you know, there's so many different factors that come into this UM. You know, if you don't point the thing down when correctly, or or if your scent goes off with a different direction than that a zone blowing out and then then they so there's always a little things that are very hard to prove UM scientifically and consistently, and there's many little factors that come into that testing process that disrupt things enough to where he can't get always the firm conclusions that we'd all like to have. Yeah, so true, But like you said, it does seem like it's another one of those things that that intuitively, at least when you're out there experientially, it does seem to help to some degree, at least at least I've seen it. Um, yeah, it seems to help. But like you said, there's a whole lot of what ifs and butts, and you know, there are a lot of ways to go wrong too. But yeah, I think that's where I get as a reporter, coming up from the reporter's point of view. That's why I seem it's important for me to talk to people like you. I ask like Greg Miller when he's what he's come across. Greg's always been a pretty good street shooter. I've known him for about thirty years. Grant Woods that I've talked to different people and they don't always want to be quoted on on various stuff because of various um, you know, requirements they have with sponsors, whatever might be. But you know, eventually, you if you talk to enough people and they trust you enough to tell you what they really think, and then um, you can, you can kind of. Over time, I think I'm always always to believe. I always believe in the idea that you know, facts aren't really disputable. You know, you can't have um, you can't have I don't believe in the alternative facts. That believe in facts. And when I when you get to a point where you're interviewed enough people, you've read enough of the literature, and you make some conclusions that well, here's the facts and here's the BS, and so when I tend to I find myself over time, the people I really trust that I feel like I can I can share their their insights and feel confident that I can fall back on the information they provide to back up arguments if someone disputes them. What was the people I keep going back to because I figured out they've they've done enough on this, they have enough experience to were plus they they just day and day out tell the truth. I go with those folks and I stand by them. Yeah, what do you think then when you when you think back on people like that or research that you've been reading up on. Let's shift from smell now to site H. There's also a recent movement in the site world where people are like cameos for the birds. They don't need a cameo. You can hunt in whatever. Um. I'm curious what you've seen when it comes to the science of dear sight, um, and what that should inform us as hunters, or how that should inform us as hunters. What what what stands out to you about deer's vision and why and how might it be important to us as hunters to know that Yeah, yeah, that's that's a you're not proud of reading the same stuff and hearing from the same people, and you're at least hearing the same arguments from different folks. And the thing in the bottom line where I always start with when it comes to the dear vision is their ability to see motion. They can see motions so well humans see motion really well as already called from what they can figure out what I think it's called, like, um, the flicker effect or something that they abially to see movement and then quick respond to it. And as you're as you're moving yourself dear um that they are have been able to test us that deer can can see as they're movements to the woods. They can see things and respond to it or have interpret or whatever you want to call analyze it like two and a half times faster than humans can. So that which proudly explains why they can run through the woods and not poked their eye out all the time. If we ran through the at the speed um, at even our fastest speed, which is nowhere near what deers is, we we probably jams. We'll probably lose our eyes in no time. And you think how how tough that is to negotiate stuff. We're not constantly duck in your head and and and seeing stuff coming. Well, dear, um, you know I I've killed a lot, dear in my life, and I've yet to find a deer the poked out eye. Think it's amazing, you know, I find them. I find scars on him at times. But then you don't know if forgot from jabbing into a branch or jabbing from a buck, whatever might be. Um, there're a thing that um, I remember to mark again this is this speaks to my age. But I remember reading all the time as the kid growing up that dear sea black and white. That's all I can see is black and white. And that was really the common belief back and probably well into the into the seventies, and probably the even the early eighties was probably still people thinking that deer basically see black and white. And Carl Miller at the University of Georgia and some of his students started looking into it and realized, no, they can see some colors. But but the thing that Charl Millery will still talk about to this day is that we're we getting the trouble all the time. We can analyze, um, what how many cones may roger and the deer's I what what we think they can see? But one thing we can't do a deer, we can't actually ask them. Um, we can't put like those a little grid you if you were taking a color vision test. Um, anyone enter the military takes us color vision tests. Now, remember my color vision was was fine. I every little shirt they flipped over, I could identify the little number hidden number in these in these um in these pictures. Whereas guys with certain color vision problems can't see those numbers and they so they get blackballed. You know, they couldn't go in and well you have that problem, huh, I've got I've got a little bit of red green color deficiency. Blindness. Yeah. Yeah, So so like guys like you are are the ones they'll kind of refer to as they'll they'll say, well, there's one color blindness that m might line up with a deer color blindness is it's that? Is that one that you have? But the thing they get tricky about where they get a little more careful about. They'll say, yeah, but what we don't know is what the dear brain is interpreting from what it's seeing. And that's where humans we can we know damn well what humans are interpreting because we ask them, you know, can you see this? And you say yes or no? Well how do you How do you prove that with a deer? You can't just put a bunch of flip charts in front of it and starts saying, tell us, tell us, which one do you see the number three in this picture? You know you can't do that with deer. So it's really always open to interpretation until we can find a way to test dear to pick out those little things that it does get tricky. But at George they have developed some tests and they have shown that you know, dear for example, they think, um see like the blue shades like ten ten, eighteen times better than than than humans can maybe more than that. Think I hanmeralize all the details in that, but it's they can see blues really good. They can see um into the UV spectrum, but they can't see in the infrared spectrum and where you know, so they have a lot of different um um things they think they know based on the structure of the eye. Because one of the cool things about um when they break down the um the things and the deer as I the thing that you know, I just kind of rely on is that nature wouldn't provide that particular um filter or that particular number of rods and cones unless the deer is able to use them, you know, just you know, nature is so efficient that way, so chances are it doesn't have like we have this yellow filter in our eye that helps us um break down detail or getting you can see detail really clear. You know, when you talk about twenty vision, that means, you know, good solid vision that almost everyone who sees that basically indicates this is what you should see a yard thing it is whereas deer they figure their acuity either their ability to see that buying detail. It's only about third of what ours is. So they but they figured, well, you know, they really don't need that um to tend to see to find detail that humans requires, so they don't they don't need that, so they don't have that deal filter. And plus that y'all filter apparently filters out like the ultra violet lights, which for our lifespan we live a long time that's important to have. We didn't have, we'd probably go blind at some point. Where a deer they don't live that long, so they don't have that yellow filter. So there's always cool things that they are able to look at. But still the thing they can't do, like I said earlier, is they can't they can't flash pictures in front of a deer's eyes and then tell what and then have them tell us what they see. So so the big takeaways on vision or the things that we think we kind of know are they've got a better than average ability to see blues, So don't go out there wearing a blue ball cap or blue jeans or something like that. Um, they don't necessarily have the level of attention to ability to see detail, but movement is so key for them. So again, like my grandpa told me when I was a little kids. Stop moving, Mark, stop moving, that's the case. Still keep it slow, right, you know. And another another fascinating thing about UM, why, like why we can get away with so much more up up in a tree standing you can in the ground is you know, the way their eyes designed. We have a ground pupil, so we can see above and below. That's pretty good, you know, without really moving our eyes around a whole lot, we can be that good up and down vertical vision. Where a deer lives lives full time on the ground, it's been preyed on by poor legged predators all through all through its eon, so it doesn't really need that um ability to see upward as much as as UM like some animals might. But the deer does not see above quite as well as we can, and so you can you can get away with stuff. I mean, yeah, they get better above. Once they know they're being hunted from above, they'll they'll cock their head up there and look look that way more often than a deer that's not tune into that. And that's why you see areas where they have a hunted a lot when they when they've been hunted hunted a lot by UM from tree stands. Yeah, they definitely do look up more, but as far as it walking through the woods, unless they actually make a conscious effort to look up, you know, they don't see that that stuff up above them as well as we can. So those kind of things are able to let you know, pinpoint based on just that the structure of the deer's eye and um, you know, you know, try to gauge, well, what what's it good at, what's it not good at, and what colors does it see better? And another one that that comes into play is the fact that I'm you know, their eye is really well built for the time time of days they're most active. You know, that's right at the edge of the day, you know, dawn and dusk. You know, if their eye picks up on these um, I think it's in the blue spectrum again, those blue spectrum lights that gets reflected like underneath the tail for example, it gives off a light that's in the blue spectrum. So when they're run into the woods and they the mother's got his tail up and they're bunch following it, they can pick that on white tail up really well and light that is being reflected off of it. So those kind of things are. I love reading that stuff and then I and I end up always you know, thinking well, you know, luck can we do to beat that? And I think, well, you always come back down to the thing you just mentioned, sits still mark. It's still going to be the number one thing. Yeah, I think I think I need one of those like wrist bracelets or something, or put a little piece of paper on my bowl riser that or the top of my visor my hat that just has sits still mark. That would be a good just reminder all day every day when I'm out hunting, because it is it's to the basic thing you're taught in the time you first hunt. But damn it's hard to do. It's hard to sit there and have that discipline and not and well know it kills me all the time. Is um They always tell you don't snap your head around when you hear hear a thud noise. Yeah, I think what, Yeah, I've never been able to stop stop myself and snapping ahead around. That's why I'm not. Yeah, it's just an kind of an instinct. So speaking of that, then, right, you hear this snap, we since this over the right shoulder, we spin our head. They see it. Um, we had some directional acuity with our hearing, we can kind of tell where sounds come from, moving now tow dear here. They have that even more to an even higher degree than we do. And you brought this up a little bit earlier, Um, But that seems to be like the superpower when it comes to dear hearing. Maybe necessarily they can hear ten million times farther than us, but they certainly can detect the source of sound better than us, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, they have that ability to when they can turn those ears towards the sun of a source or if their here's the point in that that direction, when they hear it, they can lock on real quickly. And almost every deer hunter I know I can tell a story about doing something like rattling. When they're rattling, rattling antlers, or doing something that that scares it where a deer gets curious, those deer will show up right on the spot almost of we're where you rattle from, or also show up I think I think that you brought this point up. If they don't show up there, they'll show up down wind of that spot almost precisely like its precisely downwind of it where they know that's that sound came from. Let me figure out how you know what it was before I commit myself here. And so that ability to it's basically trying, you know, the idea of triangulating and when you have a big ears and you have you know apart, what are the six five inches aparted up on top of their head, that gives it just enough that three dimensional ability to triangulate that Really, it's it's it's powerful. We're um, you know, you think, well, how we do We do pretty well ourselves with with fixed years. So I think what the deer can do with with these these you know, like almost like readar dishes the top of their head. Yeah. The thing for me when it comes to that that I always try to remind myself and I would remind other people too, is like when you are actively choosing to make noise. So if you are grunting, a rattling trying to attract dear to your two within shooting range, you better sure as hell believe that it could work. Because if you rattle and then after ten seconds you don't see anything, you lose your focus point. You're gonna get surprised. A couple of times with the deer showing up ten yards away looking at you moving around your tree stands. So you better assume that, hey, they can they're locked after you make that noise, you better just make the assumption, Okay, there's a buck, he's locked on. He's going to be within ten yards of me. I better be prepared for that in case that happens, because if you get lax at that moment, I've seen it too many times, you're gonna pay definitely, you know. That's I think we're always accumulative things of hunting a fishing come into play, and that that confidence that it won't happen all the time. It might only happen a couple of times a fall, but you're better be ready when it happens. And I think anyone who's ever gone fishing, and whether it's seeing watching corks or trolling whatever, if you don't have confidence that at some point that rod holder is gonna they're gonna be a rod bucking in the back end of the boat with a fish on the other end, you know, you lose your focus, your mind wanders, and then in those cases um that that we're trolling, you can you can get away with that. But when you're like digging for walleyes and you get lax, you get complacent, and you lose your confidence, you're probably gonna miss the fish. And so I think all these kind of things start adding up for people who hunting fish a lot, they start realizing that this is a matter of you know, like we're talking earlier that when when we talk in terms of one percent two percent success rates, um, those aren't those aren't unrealistic um expectations really. But but if you're not ready in that two percent happens, you're gonna miss your chance. And it happens all the time. So you know, one of my one of my favorite things I worked on years ago. It was an article for Deer and Deer Rning magazine where a woman named Karen Dasher I think was her maiden name. She did some great research on on scrape visitation by bucks and she found that only about two percent or three percent of visitations to an active scrape we're happening during um during daylight mayment five percent, but wasn't. It was a pretty low percentage of scrape visitations was occurring and shooting light. And so you know, some people would read that and goal, well, what's the point of sitting there? Point two percent that you're time sitting on that stand, there's a chance about buck come and buy, And I think, well, if that's you know, the God you've dealt with it, then it kind of speaks to the idea that you better be out there every chance you get sitting on that spot, because you might if you're not there as often as you can can be out there, you'll never You'll certainly that then really go up to worse than Yeah, there's there's certainly a lot too trying to just that confidencing, just being out there and knowing that if you're if you're doing something that you have faith in, you're gonna do it a lot better. This comes to a self fulfilling prophecy, and that applies to so many things. When it comes to dear. On the hearing thing, I remember reading something about you had mentioned that deer have the ability to there's some kind of neural filtering ability with your hearing. Do you recall that and what can you describe that? Yeah? Yeah, neural filtering is basically the ability to to um the deer, you know, because they live in their environment seven three sixty five a year throughout there, they they hear songs all day long that they can eventually they figure out which one's to filter out, which one was not to filter out. And the best way I could I come up with to describe that ability, um in human terms, is the idea that most of us have been in a loud environment, like at a cocktail party, and were and we were able to focus on the person in front of us and what they're talking to us about, and listening only to their voice and tuning out all the rest of the background noise. And but then somehow in that process, though we're listening, but if we hear our name mentioned, like a couple of couple of people away, or or or a certain phrase or certain words that are always of high interest to us, um, we we somehow are you able to pick out those noises, those sounds and of the meaning and look that way? And dear you think when they do the same thing out in the woods, you know they hear a scroll bots into the woods, or or a possum wading through the woods or downstalls, you get those um armadillo's and eventually you know, you think, humans, how many times, honey, times we've been hunting, we get pretty good at picking out all those solids and differentiating them. But we still get tricked all the time, or we or we don't want to be tricks. We look anyway and son, deer, they just if they didn't have that a building that they would they would not last one if they would be basically nervous wrecks. Because one of the one of the trues of deer that I always keep in mind. I make this comment all the time, um, is that deer either scared or they're dead if they're not in that potential. They're not always in that frame of mind were Um, they have to they have to pay attention. They're not always paying attention. They can't afford to let their don't like we do, and they get complacent. But yet there's many times you see them just totally disregard certain noises at as because they're complacent. I think it's just because they know this is not they they're so good at that they identify that sound is non threatening and they just keep going about their business. And that's where, um, I think in this article we talked about you know, you know, I got talking about well, what's the best way to approach to stand when when it's when a dry woods And that's when you mentioned that the idea, Well, sometimes that you're thinking that might be probably smart just to run to your stand or try to your stand. A Cadence said that they just don't usually just don't sha with people. If you're sneaking in, you know, they probably a sound that they have learned. There's nothing there's nothing safe about a sneaky human, and so they will pick that up that picked that sound out every time. Yeah, I've definitely tried to change up my cad And says sometimes when when you know they're gonna hear something, it's better not to sound like this the sneaky human. That's That's definitely something that I think. No another thing I feel like when when we're talking about this ability to neural filter, dear able to pick the sounds that matter. Um, of course there's gonna be human like sounds are so unnatural, like metal on metal, that kind of thing. I'm sure something they pick up on right away. But what about this one. Um, this is something that I've wondered about and seen, and that is other animals making warning noises. So let's say you are sitting in your tree and you happen to move, and a squirrel sees you and just starts going off, starts chattering, chattering, chattering. It's like that warning or a bird you're walking through and a crow starts crowing at you, crowing at you. To there's any truth or validity to the fact or the idea, the theory that certain animals will make warnings that deer can pick up on and they interpret it as danger in some kind of way. That's right, right. UM. I get nervous about making any hard and fast comment on something like that because I have no way annoying for certain um. But I guess personally, I know it irritates the crap out of me and worries me when an animal starts doing that girls chattering at chipmunsters, cheaping those kind of sounds. Um, that worries me. I thank god. You know, how can another animal that would not take notice of that? And then the figure if if it's if it's on a route that might take it somewhere close to me. Now it's probably having second thoughts because it might not know that. They might not have their own little language. But the thing. I say that just because logically I can't prove it. But but but then again, I always remember one of my little memories from childhood was my grandmother listening to a blue jay call one morning, and it's a certain certain call that blue jay's make and she goes, uh, I guess to be reigning leader today, And I said, like, what she's She says that that's on there and his blood was made it against she's that's that call right there indicates that later today is in the rain. And to this day, when I hear that particularly blue jay call, God, she's it's usually been right. And but but for me, the thing is, Mark, I couldn't begin to tell you what too right now. I imitate that sound to the to a point where you could understand it and where I could actually pass that knowledge along. So I think there's this knowledge that we can pass along through direct contact like that that will always stick with us. But how do you communicate that to a fellow hunter in an article? And and then so that's where I don't discount the idea that that deer that lives in that environment seven might be able to hear a little nuanced call that we don't get the nuance, but the deer does. And so that's where I can't discount it because I can't. I can't say ever seen it myself. I don't there's any scientist. I can never say they've they've the pinpoint of it. But I've I've talked to us some guys that claim, without a doubt that a certain crow calls and certain scurorell calls alert dear and put them on on edge. And I think I I courted this um guy in my recent Mediator article on hearing, where he claimed the only time he was watching a buck one time in the bed, and the only time that buck picked up his head and focused on anything was when he heard a cruel calling in the distance, And I locked onto that sound and looked at direction for the whole time the crow was was was on squawking. So that assuming he's interpreting it right, well, the chance that it was something out there that concerned that dear, concerned that crow, that concerned that dear. So I don't know, it's it's it's fun to talk about, and I guess I don't discount it. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what. I certainly use those sounds to alert myself to possibility of deer. So when I was sitting in a tree stand, you hear that squirrel of a sudden go off fort yards away and then brush right away at keet on that spot. Because so many times I've heard this a squirrel sound off the warning and if you watch it long enough, hope there's the deer. Um. Yeah, yeah, And then that got you know, I should I should have mentioned that. I remember the first the first time I ever got a shot my bow and arrow. Um, I was sixteen years old, you know, and back in this like nineteen seventy one or seventy two, I could do. I think there's some thing seventy one I was up in this. Back in those days, we didn't have portable tree stand you know, so typically we just find a big old tree with that with a good horizontal branch and stand on it. And I remember watching this nice state point buck walked on this trail. To me, my first indication that that deer was anywhere around was a chipmunk started started cheaping off in that direction, and I looked up that way and I saw a little weird movement that it wasn't a squirrel or a chipmunk, and I watched a couple more times, and I realized what the deer's nose um it was. It was eating, it was browsing on some branches or from bruscias that came through and then but I always remember that that that was my first warning, my first indication that I had company was that that chipmunk. I think it's probably something that people ignore, but if you think a lot of people, if you spend any of my time in the woods at all, you'll eventually kind of get to know what an angry chipmunk or angry angry squirrel or what that sound is. And if you hear that sound, gosh, it pays to take a few minutes and scour that area with your eyes, because so many times they like they're not doing that for no reason. There's some kind of reason why they're making that racket, and often it can be an approaching animal. Yeah, and that that's you're right, I can't imagine that's that crawls out there, the squawking first one entertainment. Yeah, something something triggered you know, well, you know it's it goes back to and this informs so much of my dear hunting worldview and strategy. Now it comes back to something that Craig Doherty once told me, Um sitting in a box blind with him up on his New York farm, and we didn't see any deer. That it was an evening sit, it was over food put there should have been dozens of deer and we didn't see anything at all. And I made a comment like, well, you know, it's dear, you just never know what they're gonna do, Um, And I kind of passed it off as you'll never know, and Craig said, no, that's the wrong approach. He said, you always need to ask why. There's always a reason why. And the key to getting better at this thing is whenever you observe something, or whenever something goes right or something goes wrong, UM, or something happens unexpectedly, don't just take it for oh, that thing happened and move on. Deserve whatever happened, and then ask why and trying to figure that out. And there's so often in the woods when you see a buck walk from point A to point B, I always try to think to myself afterwards, why did he move from point to point B? Why did he go in that direction, Why was he acting in that way? And I've just as much as I possibly can. I'm trying to ask that throughout my hunting season, throughout a hunt, and I can't tell you how many times that has helped me to learn lessons constantly. There's there's a reason why they do everything. If we can pick even like five, if we can get the answer right five percent of the time, that helps mhm. Yeah. No, I really respect that that approach because I've always figured that's one of the reasons I'll never consider myself, um a great deer hunter. I'll never I'll never try to try to tell people that will listen to me. You know, I know all there is or I'm really the expert in this area, but that no, I've met to me, these people I meant to me guys who really are that good. And the thing I think they all have in common is that curiosity, that that that ability to to um. They might they might interpret it wrong, whatever it might be, but the fact that they're questioning it all the time and trying to put those pieces together all the time, that's what makes them so good at it. You know, the things that I find interesting. It might might not interest them in the least because it doesn't really put into their the puzzle and trying to put together. Whereas you like, I can get myself distracted on any number of things out in the woods, and I was thinking, that's probably a while and there would be a great deer on here. I tend to my mind tends to wander. I tend to look at our stuff and start being interested in in a certain bird where I find a feather and go, okay, I'll start trying to figure out what, what where that feather came from, instead of paying attention to sounds around me. You know. So, I think these are all the things that um to separate the woman from the girls when it comes to hunters. You know that that that there's there's two those guys out there. I just um, I've learned over time that you you don't get jealous of their success. You respect their success because chances are that they do it if they don't just stumble off me and everyone can stum on to a good buck to right now and then for um a good nice long string of successful They never come home empty hand the year to year. But people who are good at this, who it really matters to them. They're all through all the time, they're they're they're they got their trail cameras going all the time. They're they're looking at this stuff in the trail camera. They're interpreting what they're seeing in there. It's always something that's um. It's tugging at them and inspiring them and sparking something. Where then there's the rest of us who want to attribute it all the luck and just good timing nfortunate timing. And I think just over time that the good deer hunters find a way to separate themselves in the rest of us. Yeah, what I appreciate about you is the a your your humility, but be the fact that you approach it seems like not only you're writing, but also you're hunting with a journalist sensibility and that you're looking at things objectively. You're going to strong, trustworthy sources and uh and and and not falling for alternative facts, but being able to sort the facts from the b s um. And I think that's a strong approach to writing, in a very strong approach to deer hunting. Um and you certainly are doing that. So so answer me this, though you have been in the deer hunting world. Now, for thirty or more years you were editing for Deer and Deer Hunting magazine. You were now freelance writing for all these different outlets. Over the years, what is maybe right now? I'm sure you over the years you've seen a whole lot of new ideas coming and going, different trends rising and falling, different fads getting really popular than dissipating. Um, can you name one of these ideas that you feel like it's really legit? If there's one of these fads or new strategies or products or something that you say, you know what I've seen that backed up enough or enough sources have told me, or my own experience have told me this one is really legit. So one idea or a little gimmick that actually is real? And then can you name one that is bogus? Is there's something out there, is there's some fallacy, some myth that you just can't you just you're so sick and tired of people spouting this b yes, and you need to correct it right now. UM, I guess the one that I one that I just can't get behind, and I just um, as Steve Ronella would say, if if guy came down with a gun to your head, where would you stand on this one? And that that's the moon phase stuff. I just I can't. I can't get into it. I just I've tried many times over the years, through surveys, through um Q and as through interviews and reading as much research as it is on it, and I just always come back to the idea that um al whole factor again the Deer and Deer Hunting founder when they first looked into the stuff back for their readership surveys back in the eighties, and else conclusion, after going through all the different um um um um surveys that he reviewed, it's all a bunch of who wee? That was Elice conclusion, all a bunch of WHOI And then um when Grant Woods, Grant Woods, I thought was just super cool interview on this article different eater about the newar phases where he thought he had it nailed down. He thought he had it nailed down back in nine and we actually worked together on a project back then for Deer and Deer Hunting where he had this chart and then we were selling it through the magazine. And because I had like a seventy percent accuracy on it, and Grant was quite proud of it. He was doing all this, he's actually giving seminars on it and giving presentations to the scientific community on it. And he had he had but looked to be really solid information that he had figured out um, how to how to link dear activity to the different to the moon's um, different things about how far above the equator it was on a certain days, and when it rose, when it sat, all these kind of things. And then he said, but then it all fall apart with the GPS collars. He said, once they put GPS colors on deer and it knew where they were twenty four hours a day, and if they're moving, if they're sitting still. He said, my, my dear activity indexes fell apart. And always that took at the hurt that I'm well, if Grant Woods could go from from this, this point where he thought he was, you know, and he's a pretty smart, um skeptical guy, to you go from um where he thought he has something figured out, to where he's now just you know, doesn't he doesn't even considerate he goes hunting. I figured I'm probably more in that camp, you know, where it just seems like it is too hard to get to quantify. But then I get back to um where I think on their hand, I don't discount the idea that if it gives a guy confidence that this that he's got to figure it out, and that keeps him on stand, he puts him out in the woods when other guys might might stay home. I don't know. I have a hard time discounting that belief. And you know, I don't think the belief is making a deer move at a certain time, but I do believe it it's helping the guy stay out there. And so that that's where I don't totally just you know, get all judgmental about some guy spurred about. I'm not going to argue with them. I figured, well, that thing is that market I gut. I'd say, well, and they're a hand and look at that, and then look at what's on his wall and what's what he's accomplished as a hunter, And I think, well, he's doing something right. So I as figure whatever it might be, that might not be that, that might might not be it, but um, you're doing something right. As far as UM things, I I find UM where it's ballad where it has credentials. Um I am. I guess the two things that that I I think. I still think scrape hunting is always worth a shot if you've got some good scrapes that indicative bucks moving through a certain area on a regular basis. I don't know about how well they how often they come by and check the scrape, or off often they happen that walk on the same trail or near the same trail that they rubbed, you know, like um, a nice long rub line along some ridge. But there are certain things that I think you can piece together from from from deer sign obvious deer sign that's still it's hard to overlook and discount. And that's that's where UM like Greg Miller, I think one of his books on I think it was me reb Line Secrets one of those, I think he estimate something like only five percent or six percent of his um attempts at at killing killing bucks on a rub line have ever worked out. There's just a very few times it works out, he said. Again, it's worked out enough times though, to where he keeps trying to piece together and hunt over him. And so you know that that that's UM to me worth worth hanging on too, and we're we're um, but then you have to at some point. I remember Greg years ago kind of giving up on trying it up north and move in Wisconsin because baiting became so popular. And once you have deer spending outside stimulus and in this case, artificial food sources, while throws off all those natural patterns that um, he was used to capitalizing on. Interesting, I think, Um, I feel like a lot of what you said rings true with me as well. UM, when it comes to things like scrapes and rubs and and yeah, none of these things are sure fire, guaranteed type setups, but it is something. It is a piece of the puzzle, and it's certainly better to be working with a piece of the puzzle versus a blank slate. Um. And I think it can help with that confidence too, And and you make up you make an interesting point that the placebo effect just believing something might help you actually can help you because you're confident, and if you're confident, you're focused, and if you're focused, you're on point, and you take advantage of things when they when these opportunities arise, and um, you can't discount that. So that is a really, really good point, Um, and it's interesting to see how that might play out in the woods. I think that this is a good place for us to wrap it up, Pat, because we'll cover some really helpful kind of I think foundational pieces of knowledge for new hunters, and then even for experienced hunters. I think it's good to go back and look at the building blocks and remember what did your do? How do they see the world, how do they perceive the world. What does that mean for us as hunters? Um? That just can't be hammered into our heads enough, I think. So. I appreciate taking the time to share on the things you've learned over the years as you've hunted and learned through your own experiences, and then you know learned from some one of the people out there. Your your ability to find and interpret things from sources out there, and sharing that for the rest of the world I think is very helpful. And I will say that to the folks listening. Start paying attention to the byeline, and when you see Pat Derek on the byeline of an article, you can feel confident this is in a placebo effect. You can feel confident that you're about to read a quality piece of work. Um. So, Pat, thank you for doing this, and I hope a lot of people will read what you're doing. And I know that I've enjoyed everything on the media recently, and I'm really glad that you're helping us out there. Great. Thanks, Mark, I'm flattered. Well. I hope you have a great hunting season this year too. Yeah, when when your first hunt? I leave in like two and a half weeks for early September hunt in North Dakota. Very cool. Thank you. Alright, Pat, We're gonna wrap it up and that will be a rap for today's episode. Hope you enjoyed this one. I will give you a couple of quick suggestions though, before you go. Number One, if you want to follow along with the hunts that I've got coming up, I'm leaving in just a matter of weeks for my first hunt and then it will just be chaos from there on out. If you want to follow along with everything, I'm up, to make sure you are following Wired to Hunt on Instagram. And finally, if you've been enjoying this show. I haven't asked for this in a while, but I'll throw it out there. If you've been enjoying the podcast, it would be incredible. If you leave a rating or review over on ito Zone, me in the world and it really helps us out. So that the way, thank you for listening, thanks for being a part of this community, and until next time, stay wired to Home.