00:00:00 Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's the Hunting Collective. Another episode, episode number sixty seven, to be precise. We're getting along in June. I'm excited about that because it means we're closer in September. It feels like everybody likes to talk about thinking about September in June. I like June, though. It's pretty cool. On today's show, we've got Miles Nolte, the director of Fishing. We're talking about all things a Lama Larrens. Lama Larrens is a tribe of subsistence whale hunters and a small island in Indonesias. You're gonna learn about those guys. And then we're interviewing an author of the book The Last Whalers, Doug buck Clark, and we're gonna dive into his three years he spent with a Lama Laryerance. It's really interesting subject, so please stick around for that. But before we get to that, we're gonna talk about federal premium ammunition. And in our discussions of federal premium prior, we've been talking about the t s s turkey load. How many turkeys are we killed? But starting to be time to think about get your rifle out so picking your calibers, start making your selections for the upcoming hunting season. And I just did that for bears. And if you look at what caliber to choose for bears, you can go to Federal premiumer dot com and they have an AMMO recommendation section which is pretty damn cool. You click around, you can pick your species, you can pick the load you want to use, and they'll tell you everything you want to do. So it starts with selecting your activity, whether you're target shooting, self defense or hunting, and then it takes you through the steps to choose exactly the caliber necessary to kill the thing you're after. It's pretty cool. We've had a lot of people writing and ask those questions, how do I choose the right caliber? Well, Federal Premium offers a pre cool thing on their website to get you exactly where you need to be, whether it's antelope, whether it's bison, whether it's mountain goat, mountain lion. They even have a thing in here for elephants and kay buffalo. Um. It's funny that they have elephant right next to rabbit in the AMMO selection category on the website. So go there. Federal preum dot Com. Visit them check out. There are a recommendations. You're gonna like it, and now let's get to the show. Let's do it. I guess I grew up on an older road, a barrel to the medals. I always did what I told until I found out that my brand new closed a game second hand from the rich kid's next door. And I grew up. Baths I's I grew up. I mean, they have a thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted through a real bad dream or being and like I'm coming a part of the scenes. But thank you Jack Daniels. No, no, oh, hey, everybody, welcome to the Hunting Collective. You're gonna be listening to this on six nineteen. We're here in the brand New I mean this is like brand spiketty New, as Steve Ornella would say. People have been charging that I'm starting to talk like him, but I can't help it. It's so very contagious his voice anyway, Brand Spicty, New Meat Eater Podcast Studio. It's got all kinds of new microphones and new pictures and a new engineer named Phil. How's a gun. I feel fell and we also have Miles Nolte Hi everybody director of fishing here. I have a confession to make. I also have found myself speaking like Steve lately, and we we did a hot tip off the other day and I use the word fella. Yeah, that's not a That's not in my normal lexicon at all. And as it came out of my mouth, I was thinking, I definitely just absorbed like some of Steve Ranella's Yeah, zegeist right there. Let's take a quick moment to discuss that, because I feel like he had There's something about the way that he approaches things that gets in your damn brain. Yeah, like, what is it? I is it? I can say this and we may get called out on this, but it is not like an intentional attempt to replicate his cadence of speech. It really isn't. It's just it infiltrates your brain in ways that it's it's like insidious. Some people like Colonel Tom Kelly had himil the podcast some weeks ago, and I said that he literally narrates. Now that I know what his voice sounds like, I know that he's been near like he's been narrating through his books. My turkey hunting for a long time, like a turkey be coming in. I'll be thinking about, like thinking about Tom Kelly and the narrating. So I think for a lot of people, they wake up and they they're inner monologue sounds like Steve Ronilla. Yeah, I thankfully that's not happening yet. I don't wake up in the morning like embodying Steve Ranilla. But I when I'm when I'm working with him and I'm talking with him and we have like these there's a particularly fast paced way of speaking, and you just sort of when you're in a conversation with him, you better keep up where he's going to move on. He walks away. Literally. That's not a lot of people on this cast loved when we did the Game of Thrones bit where I was explaining Game of Thrones to him and I will give you a little bit of behind the scenes. He literally if you go back and listen, he leaves like his portion ends abruptly because he literally stood up, took the headphones off and just walked out. I gotta go. So so maybe that is the reason why you you have to like keep up with Steve in terms of the pace that you speak at which you speak Ruther or the conversation just in he'll leave you. Yeah, you're done, He'll leave you. Uh what do you think about that? Phil, Well, I haven't been here long enough to uh kind of experience this, but I'm looking forward to boring Steve in the near future. I'm sure. Yeah, because I can talk about Game of Thrones as well, I can't talk as well about about hunting. So you're gonna fit in here exactly. It is a safe space where you don't have to live up to Steve's expectations. I'm I'm, I'm, I'm at home. Then there we go. You're you're gonna be here? Well, welcome, Welcome to Mediator. You're gonna I'm gonna make sure Phil gets in a lot of these shows because this, this could be a mistake. This is where it ends for you. This could be a yeah, oh he's heard that so many times before, No idea. I am the barnacle on the hunting industry. I'm a barnacle. Look at this, Watch this transition. Speaking of barnacles. Yes, you like that. Speaking of barnacles, we're gonna talk about whales specifically. Uh. The last the very last subsistence whale hunting culture whale hunting because they're not they aren't fishing for definitely hunting. And I'm gonna say, if we have time, I want to go back to Barnacles, but continue with the whales. Please, We'll end on Barnacles, I have to say, Um, and I wanted to start the conversation of this well, in the interview portion of the show, you're gonna hear a guy named Doug buck Clark. And Doug is a very earnest um man who you know, we both fancy ourselves journalists. I have a journalism degree, things of that nature. So I say that, but here's a man who's won many awards and has spent years and months working on one piece of journalism which we can't hear to digital media company even UM understand no. The level of dedication to embed with a culture for three years, to work on a singular project. I mean that that is incredibly laudable, and we don't have enough of that long form journalism going on at all. So Doug I went to Raley, North Carolina and sat in Doug's house when we talked about his book, The Last Whalers. So you'll hear that in some minutes here. But what I wanted to it's not that you need to know who the Lama Layarans are, which is the tribe and the culture that is based off a small island in Indonesia. It's not that you really need to know much about them, but to understand kind of the questions that they have. And there are questions we all have asked ourselves this, but I just wrote down on that like the main they have these main questions. It goes in Doug's book when you read about the Lama Larrans and you understand kind of where they are with the struggle between modernity and their culture and and worshiping their ancestors, which they do. They asked, there're still these questions, who are we, who were we, who are we now? And who will we become? And they asked themselves these questions and so many tangible ways that we can't really relate to. They they worshiped in their culture. They worship their ancestors. Their ancestors are the souls of their ancestors inform what they do on a daily basis. Also in their culture. They are struggling now with the things that modernity brings. The younger generations are bringing in cell phones to their culture. They're bringing in TV and pop culture and different things from around the world. So they're struggling with who are we right now? And then generationally, how can we hang onto this thing that we have, which will here Doug talk about the culture that they have with subsistence whale hunting and being off that resource. And so those three questions are um part of their daily lives in a way that struck me as as pretty profound. Do you find yourself now engaging in those questions for yourself and your own family as a result of that, not not in such a tangible ways that they do, because we don't have we don't have the direct impacts to our lives the way that they do. They're seeing the erosion of their lifestyle. They're seeing, um, they're the people they used to be, you know, changed in such in such a stark way. We we see little changes, right like little I don't know if I'm gonna agree with you on that. I think So let's this this I think relates to and and certainly, and maybe it's not in as dramatic fashion as actually losing a subsistence whaling culture. But how often do we talk about the erosion of outdoor sporting culture and the direct threat that that poses to our identities, to our livelihood, to the ways that we want to envision our own culture in society. This is this is a constant refrain that we are bringing up through the media that we create and through the people that we talked to. So I don't know that I agree with you to say that this isn't a significant piece of what we think can talk about. Yeah, no, you're right about that. I just think it's not a stark I mean, for them, it's like, can we still can we still row out in a small boat and spear a like a forty ton whale and drag it back to and chop it up with machetes? Can we still do that? For us? It's it's it's a little more, you know, intricate than that. But the main ideas stand, who are who are like? As a modern hunter, who are we? Who? Who are we? Now? Who do we want to be? Who were we? All those things are intertwined and everything we do absolutely and and modern hunting and fishing is so drastically divorced from true subsistence culture, right. I mean, if we're looking at it in that kind of timeline, were we we were once desperately needing to harvest game and fish to survive to feed our families. Where are we now? Well, we feel some sort of connection to that. It enriches our livelihood and our identity in your existence in some not very tangible but important way. Where are we going? We want to hold onto the ability to not have to do this, but be able to do it. It's a different the stakes are different, and you'll hear Doug talk about in the interview that there's the things that they have. In fact, anthropologists have have studied their culture and said this is one of the most cooperative cultures because they're there. They have a group called the Lamafi, which are like the top hunt the top whalers. They stand at the back of the boat. These are the top hunters in the culture. Right, So there exalted in they hold a high status. They they have to share the meat. They only kill so many whales that that meat has to be distributed over or so people that live uh in the inlet there where they live, and so they have to think of sharing there there isn't there. There isn't the concept of being selfish, of of taking that for your own. You're literally serving the whole community. And so you find you find that through indigenous hunting cultures and things through the time that I mean, I would say that's another piece that has eroded from if we're getting looking at it in those those three point touch points from where we were to where we are and where we're going. That's that's not at all part of our contemporary hunting culture. I mean, sure, we we share like I might. I might give a buddy some meat. I might come back and like, hey man, I've got I got a whole lot of mule there. Do you want something? But that's not the same as being beholden to a community that's not just hoping that you'll share something around, but needing you to be successful in your hunt in order to have your whole community survive. That's a different level than and and to be fair, Doug's not the only per to have covered the lama lect. Many many folks have written about them outside magazine. I mean, it's even some more endemic to what we do have written about them. And I think it's those curiosities that we have that we hold innately, that have driven that coverage. Like here's this example of we've we've gone over and and Doug mentions this in the interview, We've gone over like a cultural extinction. These hunter gatherer cultures are slowly dying over over time, and the numbers are he'll hear them later, but the numbers are pretty pretty astounding. And we're losing us this this sense of ourselves. But I'm gonna I'm gonna flip that a little bit and say that's a privileged position for us to sit in, right, to be able to say like, oh, it's so sad these hunter gathering cultures are going away. Right. But if I'm the youth of that culture sitting there, going here, my options are to either be on this boat rowing for my life, probably going to get mangled and potentially killed by this whale. Or I could have a cell phone and an office job. He could have options like how arrogant is it of us to sit where we're sitting right now and say like, it's really sad that you guys are losing your culture. If I'm knowing, like, screw you man. Oh there's and there's a lot of people you reading the book, there's a lot of characters in and Doug's book that kind of struggle with this. Some of them choose, some of them completely leave their their children, their family, They go into they go and live in town, and then they leave it. But the funny thing about the Lama learns is that they've been able to through all kinds of legal but not only just battles within their own you know, culture and sense of self, but legal battles. Animal rights groups want to come in and stop there what they do so, but they've been able to hang onto that which which must mean it has some value to them or has some great value to them generationally that even though they'll have these battles and have to make a choice, we will never have to really make. We make that we make the choice to hunt, rather than the reverse or having to have like a one versus one there. You know, we could certainly stop punting and fishing tomorrow and be just fine. Many many folks are um the way their culture as they can, well they can, but doing so requires a sea change in the way their culture operates and a loss of that communal sense and a loss of those traditional hierarchies and roles and a loss of everything that they understand as being themselves is holding them up as unique. But again, maintaining that requires significant sacrifice, and it's hard. I think. I think it's it's not necessarily this is this is sort of a weird um imperialism that we we still do of going into native cultures and being like, you know, what you should do is keep it like it is. Yeah, you don't, don't be like us, don't. I know this looks comfortable and great because I've never had to really work a day in my life. Like your phones give you cancer. It's really tough. You have you seen how fat we are? Do you really want to be that fat? Yeah? I think once you get past if you start to get into this and it's it's really interesting to me for these reasons. But also people will really find that a group of people that dragged bull sharks by their tail onto the beach and beat them with clubs and tiger sharks, which is which is even more shocking. End up, like sperm well was one of the largest things on the earth, largest prayer on the earth, um forty tons, and they're going in small wooden ships and spearing them and sometimes spending days and days chasing these these whales. So once you get past like that's just an amazing of itself that they're able to do that physically and mentally and with with the skill that they have. Once you get past that, then you start to really get into the sense of our relationship like we're we're them, but we're also not them. Yeah, I'm we We think that we've really done something when you know, we hike ten miles into the back country and kill an elk and carry it all out like that's with Italian leather boots. Yeah, we hold that. I was like, man, that dude's Badassah. He took you took that whole elk out by himself, you see that, no ship? Wow, Like that's that's what we hold up as the gold standard of badass hunter. And it doesn't even compare not to this, not to this. Um. What's when you think about when you think about the lamb learns, you's kind of just read about the concepts of the book. What questions did you have, Like, do you have any questions? Yeah? And I need to admit something to the audience right now, I have not read the book. No, I didn't do my home. I only listened to the audiobook. Who who did the recording on that? Who did the video? I don't know what. Were they good? Not as good as you would have been. No way, look at that velvet in these new mics that Phil got, these new these new mics make make us sound even better. So, I mean, you've listened to a lot of people talking to Mike's listen to this voice right here, give him, give him something real smooth there. This voice right here is straight velvet, just just for you, Phil, This is all for you. I quit. It's not getting any better. That's like a ten out of ten in it. Yeah, that's great, that's pretty good. I like it. Verry White and Good shipped on me. Um. In terms of your your question about the book, I mean, the first, honestly, the first thing I thought of when I read it was a different book that I had read called The Sex Lives Accountables, which is kind of similar, but different island, different culture, different deal. Um. What I was hungry for was, and this may be super stereotypical male of me, but I wanted to hear the details of like those those harpooner guy what's what's their class called lama fu um And I wanted to understand one the specifics of what they do and to how they sort of fit into the broader hierarchical structure of the culture. And three how one gets to be in the lama fi. Yeah, I mean it's there's a character in the book you you follow Hit You follow kind of his family and his father and then he becomes at the end of the thing, becomes a lama fine And he has this he probably embodies as much as anything, the choice that these generational folks have to make, Like do I want to stick with this? Do I want to be a whale hunter? Do I be one of the most exalted well hunters in this culture? Or do I want to hike over the mountain, go down into the to the valley, get on a boat, go across the town and work at a Samsung shop or something. Um. So you see those things. But his journey I won't spoil because Dug talks about it good bit in our interview, But his journey to become alma fi kind of like typifies what this culture is, what they mean, what they mean to each other, what they might mean to us. Just and that's what this book does a great job of. It takes some individual stories and helps to to kind of weave those together to give you another standing of the bigger picture within the culture. So it's it's it's worth your time. Um. In fact, I told Doug, I listened to the audiobook and then read the book, and then read listened to the audiobook because I thought, um, it just struck it just struck me those those questions we started with, which is also like say that the details of how do you do this? Yes, I can't. I I don't understand. And so you'll you'll get you'll get in there. You know, guy's spearing whales and being drug under the water, guys um being tracking whale that's wounded and being stuck out the sea for days and days and days and thinking they were going to die, and you know, and there. They believe that their boats have souls, that their spears have souls. They believe that each good or bad thing that happens to them while hunting is informed by their ancestors. They must have done something to what we would say, piss off the ancestor um in their hunting. So even those those small parts of their storyline are interesting to me. But I'm again I didn't do the homework, so I don't know I'm making this up, but I would I would guess that if the folks like the central character John Right m hm, who are among the crop of young men who have at least a hope of making their version of the NFL right like he is he is, he is a top prospect that's being courted. I can see how he would be truly at at at a point of friction of deciding which way he wanted to go. Could am I gonna stick around here and potentially be the top person within this culture? Or am I going to go to lead a different life where I may not have to work so hard, but I certainly won't get as much recognition. But but what about the kid that's coming up in that culture there's no hope of ever being the killer Whaler? Like, what about that kid who's like the bench warmer? If if I'm that kid, you're damn right, I'm going to Samsung right because because and I would guess that that's part of what's eroding that culture is that the ones who are at the bottom of the pecking order and who are dependent don't have a choice anymore, like the or excuse means have a choice now where they didn't have a choice before. They can go and move to Jakarta. And I would guess those are the folks who were out and there's been a lot of that and then a lot of that erosion in their culture. But then there's been a shocking level of fight for their traditions, you know, and so that it's just again there's this push pool of there's a lot of things that modernity could do to make our lives better, but we feel at least the core of their culture feels so strongly about its benefits that they're willing to fight for it. And they fought publicly for him. So that's interesting that that's I think tells a lot about this book. I think the book and the subject matter is all about a struggle with modernity. I mean, really in this time, if you, if you like, say remove the more tangible activities and how amazing they are, it's about that. I mean, they're pulling a tiger shark by the tail and whacking into the head of the club. Have you ever seen a tiger shark in person? Uh? No? I have not that I can think of, And I can think of very few things more fearsome than being in the water and seeing a tiger shark. Yeah. The last thing I would ever do is be like, you know, what's a good idea. I'm gonna see about pulling that tail. See what I can do? Like, I cannot imagine a reality in which that would happen to my brain. Yeah, well, and you'll and you'll. The funny thing about the modernity deal is like they made all these best with themselves, Like, well, on board motors, We're gonna we'll put those on, like just the rescue boats, but not the hunting boats. Interesting and so there, I think maybe what they've done well and the core of their culture is to kind of give a little bit to modernity, enough to give a little bit of room for the new generations to feel to feel connected there. Um, but and I'm sure the book deals with this, But is that a slippery slope? Oh yeah, By by putting that first motor on on the rescue boat, are you inevitably down the road gonna have one on the chase boat? Yeah? Yeah, I mean probably. And so it's a creep, right, it's a siddle creep. But I think it again if you I'm I'm just assuming a lot of folks haven't read. I think the book came out like early this year in January, assuming a lot of folks haven't ready to go go pick it up and and give it a read. Um. And I was also thinking, well, we should address here, UM a couple of emails read emails, we have t c at the mediator dot com, and you guys have been writing in enough that I can't really keep up with what's going on. UM, So I figured it's you know, we should probably address some things. You have some things to talk about. Are we are we off of whales? Or is this connected to whales? It's gonna be off of whales. I'll do we need to Phil, do you want to wrap us up on whales? Not not particularly now? Thanks? Thanks Phil. You know what I'm gonna I'm gonna. I'm gonna booke nd you. I got you here, Bunny, because we started, we got into Wales from barnacles. I'm gonna come out of Wales with barneccles. I'm gonna help you with this something that everyone should actually another book I think people should read Darwin same guy Theory of Evolution, wrote an entire book on barnacles and the fascinating methods that barnacles have of surviving and reproducing. Interesting part about that book is he was halfway through the Theory of evolution and he took like three years to write a book on barnacles before finishing the Theory of Evolution. What'd I say about Darwin that he was terrified of what was going to happen as soon as he released his Theory of evolution into into your credic society barnacles. So you know what's not gonna piss anybody off at all, Barnacle sex. I'm gonna write about that. Let's take a three year Barnacle sex break exactly. And and I'm for all of you out there who are total science nerds, the Darwin tom On Barnacle sex film, this is for you too, fascinating. And then the question that's in my mind right now is what's gonna be my barnacle sex because eventually I'm gonna get tired of podcasting and I want to want something new. Well, I mean, if you're really going to make this this lineup, you have to have some sort of really really big, like earth shattering, society changing idea that you're halfway through and you're scared to put out and barnacle sex is your distraction. I can tell you, guys that I like, I'm working on something you could super deep. You'll never know. It's a it's a missile launcher, alright, so el cum Hey, so thanks for closing that out. Phil, Listen, I'm not gonna lie. This is a well just to let the audience now, this is the first recording we're doing with all this new equipment, all this new stuff. I've been kind of drifting in and out, listening to the room tone, listening to see if how much of the air conditioning we can hear. I was going in and out on whales and then you said, hey, Phil, close it out, but and I floundered a little bit. I just want to I listen. I told you right up front it was a huge mistake letting me talk into this. I feel I feel regret. I thought you'd have some really deep I thought you might be the closer, like for for every segment. No, no, no, Roger Clemens, he was a closer Phil to go down and flames, buddy, So I did stick the Gamela. You're no John Snow, you're no Melissandro. Here you go. That's probably better. I understand that you understand those references. Um So, anyway, right in at TC, at the mentor to Colm for any comments about Phil. Oh boy, yeah, we're gonna we just wanna make sure he's make sure you guys like him before we bring him back. Vote vote up or down on Phil. You've already voted up a dad on me a lot, a lot. We're gonna turn to expanded out to Phil, expanded to film. Uh, father's Day just happened. Before we get to our interview. We're gonna talk a little bit about father's Day. This might bring Phil back to maybe his wheelhouse. And we don't know. I am a father, alright, perfect and everyone has a father. So that's that helps. Um hold on, I lost my email. Hold on, everybody, you're blowing it there. It is okay, And this has to be like a hard name to pronounce. Try this one miles in your your radio voice. Elias tour Hyden. Let's get that again. I like that. Elias tour Hiden. Oh yes, Elias okay. Last right in he wrote in and he said some things um about last podcast two podcasts go Now. We talked about fathers there and I gave a little uh speech on what my dad means to me, and the last wrote in he said, on your last podcast, you said to reach out and thank the people who took slash take you hunting, And that was kind of in my monologue. I really just wanted to thank my dad on the air, but also have everybody reach out to the person that really is the reason that you're where you are in the hunting world. And he says, well, for me, that's you and Mr Ronnella more than anyone else the last two years. I'm a brutal adult, onset rookie hunter and if it wasn't for you guys, most of my experiences something would be from a truck like the few people I know who do hunt. Instead, I'm trying to teach myself to still hunting spot and stalk Baron dear, and though it's going slow, I'm still doing it. So I'm reaching out. Thanks, UM, good on your good on you man. Yeah, uh, I don't that's that's not a humble brag on my part. It until you call it call it out, but it is. Um when I say, like when you know, when you say to reach out to somebody it's hunting, there's a lot of people like alives out there that just I want somebody to help him out, and it's it's pretty damn important. I mean, I think that we we spent a lot of time thinking about the folks who have taken us hunting or fishing, or learning how to navigate in the woods or whatever it is, that we are very difficult to be self taught and really almost impossible learn from a book. I'm not gonna say it's impossible. You can learn these things from a book, but not without a lot of extra effort. But I don't know that we always think about the flip side of that, which is who who am I gonna impart that to other than our own children? And I think we all have people who would really appreciate getting the opportunity. Even I'm gonna call you out specifically on this last since you're talking to us. You may not think you have a ton of knowledge at this point, but I'm willing to bet there's somebody in your life who knows less than you do and would benefit greatly from going out in the field with you and learning what knowledge you gathered in the last couple of years. Yeah, that's for sure. And that's something that I myself don't do enough of. And I talked about it a lot. I think about it a lot, but I need to get better at executing that. Yeah, and that was I mean, I've I've I've got a bunch of other emails. Here are people in party like, this is my story, this is how I came into this, and that's I mean, there's a reason why we all have to share our stories, our origin stories with because we're narcissists. Yes, that's it. That's why I shared that at email so you guys could be like, see how impactful this is. Keep listening, Okay, Phil, give us something. Well, I um, it's weird working at this company because I mean, I told, I told the honest and Steve straight up. I didn't grow up with hunting. You know, my dad didn't hunt, my grandparents didn't hunt. No one in my family hunts. I'm mostly here because I know how to twiddle knobs and uh and make miles sound just a little bit a little bit more velvet. But do you fish, Phil, I have fished? You have that is not the same thing as do I fish? Yeah, No, I've never I've been living in Montana for eleven years. Never fly fished, got fly fishing friends. Most fishing I've done is off of a on a lakeside and Washington State. So let me ask you this question. Are you starting to see miles and eyes mentors already? Are you looking up to us? Yeah? Is it obvious? And you're starting to already look up to us just after one recording, just because I'm tall though, Yeah, that's really that's how that works. Well as a mentor, You're welcome. I'll take you go hunting. That's how the podcast ends, is sort of like I want to have a catch Dade and and to feel the dreams or whatever. You want to have a hunt. All right, we're getting into the interview portion. Were let Phil go out on a high note like George Costanza. Uh, here we are. We're going to transport ourselves in time to the home of Doug boch Clark to learn more about the Lamon Layers. Enjoy Doug, how are you, Drey? Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thanks for having me into your home here. That's a pleasure. It's not not your usual hunting grounds, but thanks for making it out here. Yeah, and I don't think this will be our normal hunting conversation. Um. That we were just before I record talking about kind of how to frame up the story the story of your book, The Last Whalers, the story of what you went through, the story of the people that you were around, um with with with my audience, the modern hunting audience, and how to kind of relate those two things. I think that will be our biggest challenge with the time that we have to do that. So, um, let's quickly get into who you are and then just I think the pace of this will will be as fast as we can get it, just to get all this information and perspective and in the time that we have. Um. So, you're a writer and a journalist. You've written for for many publications New York Times, g Q, Wired, Rolling Stone, Men's Journal, Esquire. You have a lot of honors in the journalism space. Um, just talk about your career and kind of your philosophy on writing and journalism. Yeah. So, I'm a freelance journalist and right primarily magazine features, which are the longer articles that go in the center of the magazines. And do a lot of investigative work, especially in Asia. UM. But recently I published my first book, which is called The Last Whalers UM, and it's the story of a hunter gatherer tribe in Indonesia that survives by hunting sixty ft long sperm whales with bamboo harpoons. And they're generally considered this sort of the last true big game hunter left in the world who truly survived by doing this. Yeah, I think the Lama Larians are one of the more interesting people and like your your interaction with them is one of the more interesting interactions in the book. UM. I just went through the read the whole book and then listened to the audiobook on on on my travels here recently, and it just was enthralled by the story that people. You know, you did a great job of coloring the people you met and their stories and kind of the trials and tribulations that they went through, everything from being sucked under into the ocean by you know, like you said, what is it a four ton sperm whale? Like the probably probably sperm whale. Um. You know, there's the largest predator, largest carnivore on the earth with a bamboo spear, you know, like that life and death story, but also the grander story of modernity and subsistence hunters and how those things clash clashed together. UM. And so just start with how you first learned these people's and how you came to want to know more about them. So I was living in Indonesia UM shortly after graduating from college, and I was living on a fairly remote island, not truly out there, but you know, very far off the beaten path. And while I was there, I heard these stories about UM, a group that wailed for their living, and they didn't whale in an industrial way. They still practiced the old ways UM. And at first I didn't believe this, that people who are telling me this had had a habit of pulling my leg. They would tell me things like dinosaurs lived up in the jungles and stuff. But when I finally got an Internet connection, I looked this up and I found out, holy sh it, that this actually does exist. UM. So during during that time, I went and spent a few weeks with them UM. And at that point I wasn't looking to write anything about them. I was on a governmental fellowship from the U. S. State Department um, but I was just curious to really see if this existed. And when, after several years, UM I became a journalist, I started writing for a lot of publications, and when it became clear that I had the capacity to do a book, I knew that this was a story that was grand enough and important enough that I would want to spend several years of my life working on it. Yeah, yeah, and that, and what were the I think I could answer the main reasons for that, But what when you really looked at their who they were and what they were in their culture? What what were the things that they're gonna drove you to spend this much time with them and thinking about them. So on that first island, one of the things that I had noticed was I had come in contact with a lot of traditional cultures, a lot of tribes that still survived, as you know, in a mixed sort of foraging slash agricultural tradition. Um. They didn't do things as spectacular as hunts burm whales with bamboo arpoons, but they might hunt sharks or other or other things. Um or you know, they they would hunt the animals that were up in the jungle. And I also became aware of how fast these cultures were vanishing. Um. I could see it almost as a month by month thing. As this road got constructed into the jungle, and as these groups encountered things, um, you know, as they got better electricity and TVs and their youth became more interested in, you know, what was going on in Jakarta and what was going on in Hollywood. Then continuing the ways of their ancestors, and so as I um sort of traveled both the Indonesian archipelago and the whole world, I saw that this was a worldwide story about the change of how humans survived. Once we were all hunter gatherers, once we all hunted for our survival. And yet at this point, almost none of those groups are left, and they will probably all be wiped out within the next um, you know generation or so. Yeah, And that's I've always when people ask me, like, what would be the goal of your what is one of the goals of your hunting existence, and like what's the one thing you'd like to achieve? And I'd often talk about that point is I would like to understand the mindset of someone who lives in a substence of subsistence, mindset like that doesn't think it doesn't have the modern luxuries of thought that I do, Uh, don't think about you know, the modern pushing pools between wild life and and it was it literally is and for the Lamlarians, it's it's their culture, it's their religion. I mean, they we can get into this, but they think that the ships have souls and the ropes have souls and like that they've they've they're so intertwined with the place and the animal and what it provides for them that it's a mindset that I've often and your book does a great job of bringing folks into this. I've often yearned to like to know more about UM and learn more about I think from your perspective as a hunter, Yeah, I think it might be interesting to you and to your UM your listeners, because literally the whole culture is built around hunting. It's literally UM. You know, there's no other way to survive. They live on a very sort of geographically unique UM peninsula on a very dry island, so almost no streams or other um perennial water sources are available to them. They can't really grow anything. But what is unique about this bit of land is that it sticks out into a deep water strait that channels migrations of marine life between the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. So a huge amount of um whales, sharks, marlin, other large marine species all passed through there. And they can just see this from the cliffs that they live on. And so what they do to survive is just row out in these ancient boats every day and try and spear whatever happens to come to them. Yeah, and it's it's like I said, that their culture is, that's that's their life, that's the animals are a part of them. They worship them, and they they've lived with them every day and they consume their flesh and and I think what makes this compelling is that it's you know, man versus really is man versus beast when it gets down to the actual storytelling. But in a greater sense, you'd write a lot a lot of things, um, namely that anthropologists that have studied the Lama larians would say that there the most cooperative and generous people um that they've studied, and that is has to do with hunting, because they have to cooperate to take down these giant animals and then they have to be generous in the way that they share them with the rest of I believe what people generally in the in the community. Um, so talk about what you saw kind of what hunting had engendered in in them. Well, so that's a really good point, um, As I was, as we're sort of talking about before the hunting has literally shaped the society, and so um the law millarias are an extreme example of how hunting has shaped a society. But essentially all hunter gatherer groups are very collective. And that's because in the old days, you know, to take down a large animal, you really couldn't do it by yourself. You know, maybe you'd get lucky and you know, get a perfect shot with your bow, or maybe you'd land the perfect javelin throw, but in general, you needed several dozen men to take down a bison or to take down a whale or something like that. And you know, millennia of cooperation forged cultures that prey placed an emphasis on both coordination during the hunt but especially also after the hunt. So La millaria is divided is about people, as you as you mentioned, that's divided into about twenty different clans, and each one of those clans has a boat, and the men of that clan hunt with that boat. Now, they catch about twenty whales a year um. But you know, given random to to go chance, your boat might for one of the twenty clans might catch two whales this year and zero whales next year. Right, if you happen to hit your zero, you're the year where you catch zero whales, You're in deep trouble. Right, You're not gonna have anything to eat. So the way that societies have evolved is to figure out a way to basically force people to share all the meat that they get. That way, it doesn't matter if group A, group B, group C, group D get to whale. It's all evenly spread. And this creates an incredible amount of sharing in all parts of the society. And so when anthropologists come in and sort of try and measure this, they score very very highly on these tests. Whereas comparatively Western groups, western industrial societies like ours, we generally keep things for ourselves, they would generally give things away. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's one of the points that you make early in the book that kind of rings along as you as as the stories are told. The other thing that's that struck me about them their culture, um was how much there they were. Like, really the core of it I felt from reading the book was their connection to the ancient, their ancient ancestors and the pea like the not only their gods, but the ancient hunters and the people that they felt they had to honor in ceremonial ways and and you know, really just a lot of their actions were maintained by like we have to make the ancestors happy. We don't want to be punished because we've we've not um looked back in time and remembered what their teachings. So can you talk a little bit about kind of their how the you know, how the ancestral lineage just kind of passed along and how it maybe is the center point of of how they remain subsistence hunters going forward. So the law Millarians are not like several other indigenous tribes which reject the outside world. The law Millarius are very aware of what's in the outside world. Um, the part of the island they live on, this very isolated there's a number of about five thousand foot mountains behind them covered in jungle, hard to get over them. But on the other side, of the island, there are modern towns. The Lamellarians themselves have started to get electricity and all these other things. And it's a conscious choice by the community that they make every year, literally at a meeting where everyone sits down and decides what are we going to allow into the community this year, that they're going to try and keep the ancient ways. Um. And this is because they feel that this is the best way to live. Um. There's there's spiritual reasons, as you note. You know, they believe the whales are incarnations of their ancestors and are sent to them as gifts, um. And that if they were too uh to break with the ancient traditions, they wouldn't get the whales and they would starve. But they also believe that not everything that is happening in the outside world is great for human happiness. And this is something that a lot of anthropologists have also um observed. You know, hunter gathering groups. Um, we're called the original affluent society by many anthropologists. You know, that's a little bit of a misnomer. Um. It's not. Life is not perfect there by any means, but there are certain advantages most hunder gatherer groups, including the Allamallarians probably work about twenty hours a week. Um. They have higher child mortality rates, but if you managed to get into sort of the prime of your life, you're probably significantly healthier then. Um. And they are actually report higher levels of happiness than many people in industrial societies. So while it's important not to romanticize them, and there are, um, there are severe disadvantages to living without certain modern technologies that the Allawmlarians would love to have. UM, there are also advantages that they see and they want to keep those. Yeah. I mean and then like you said, they've you say, and he's saying the book that they've they've remained like true to their legacy and the culture by limiting for an influence by and worshiping their ancestors and making sure that those things, you know, remain uh center. And I thought that that like that the choices that they make to live the way they do because they often these whalers, they don't know what was there roughly three or so hunters in in the community. I mean, they die, Yeah, people get hurt and injured. Um. Um, they're doing a very dangerous task and so UM, how do they weigh those things? I mean, as you said, there's there's good and bad with with them, but from living with them, do they struggle with that every day like we could go get cell phone or they do some of them have cell phone as you said, but um, they have to weigh that every day. There. Yeah, they're they're they're very aware of it. Um. And you know, one of the main people that I follow in the book is a young man named John who's an apprentice whaler um. And he both wants to become a true harpoon, but that means, you know, committing himself forever essentially to this way of life. But he's also interested in, you know, what would life be like if you moved to the Capitol, which is a very modern city. Um. You know, he has the correct sense that life might be easier in some ways, and so learning to negotiate that and balance that is something that he and the Lamallarians will be constantly doing. Um. And I I you know, I think it's not that different than you in choosing to hunt, which is, you know, something that our society increasingly is moving away from. But it's you draw a lot of value from that in some ways. You you know, I don't know you do well personally, but you know you may too be drawing value from the same things that the Lamallarians are. Yeah. No, and that's before we hit recorded. I wanted to at least articulate that as best I could, And in reading this you find yourself so far away from there their actual life, but the struggle that they're going through, like, at least philosophically, I can understand, you know, because because they are pulled too. It is easier for me to go to the grocery store and get a turkey or go to fast food and get a turkey sandwich. It's way harder but also more enriching to go and kill a wild turkey in the woods and then feed it to my family. So I have this, even though mine is is a much light on the light on its loafers than the lab of Larians. It's there, it kind of, you know, and in a smaller you know, more first world since but it is there, you know, um, And I'm sure it's there for them as well. Do you When you look back in your time you say you first went there in two thousand eleven, correct, um? And over like six trips, seven trips, wasn't it? Probably so, first one there in two thousand eleven, and then um when when I got the assignment to do the book, which in two thousand and fourteen, and over the sort of the next three years, I spent them out four months a year there UM and I visited since. But the timeline that the book covers is really two thousand and fourteen through two thousand and sixteen. Yeah, I mean you live with them, You traded in their markets, you hunted with them, spearfish with them. You ate, you said you ate manta brains. Oh you do, you do, do everything, you gotta do it all. I appreciate the immersion, um. You know, talk about that like just your personal experience with it. I guess that informs the rest of this conversation, Like how was it on a day to day basis? Did you feel comfortable there? Did you feel a challenge? I mean, you learned their language, which which I think is astonishing. But to talk about that day to day life while you spent time there, well, I I felt incredibly lucky. They were extremely generous. Um. I slept at in the home of one of the leaders of the tribe UM and everyone was incredibly welcoming and it was. Uh. They deserves so much credit for being participants in the book and for helping tell the story in the right way. Um. You know, I had I already had at that point. By the time that I landed there, I already had maybe two years of experience living in Indonesia. I spoke the national language fluently. UM. I grew up doing a lot of backpacking and and living in in um in, you know, in in rougher conditions, and so it was not it was it was a pleasure to get to go with them and just to be able to do everything with them. Um, whether it was from going on dozens of whale hunts to helping them build boats. Um, they're as much as possible. I tried to adapt myself. I wasn't. I wasn't always a hundred persent u to. I'm definitely a grew up in the mountains, and I definitely got seasick much easier than they did, which is something that they thought was hilarious. They had a word for it, didn't they. Oh yeah, there was a feeding the fishes, There is a they got. They got this idea that Um, one time, after I threw up a bunch of whales appeared soon after, so that the joke became, you know, why don't why don't you bait the fishes dug and you can get Yeah. Um, you you know what was it like being around these I mean, these are relatively small boats, much smaller than than the animals that were swimming beneath them that they were trying to kill. Um. I imagine what was the name when you became actual uh a leader on one of the boats. Because I know each tribe has a boat, but there was like a lama fla. I was never a lama, but I was purely an observer. I was not holding any hard pit. Yeah, but to become a lama file was to be like held up in the tribe. And then you see that a lot of Native American lore and some different things throughout hunting history that that that happened. Um, when you're out doing that, I mean, and you tell the story of a lot of these guys. They've a whale, they see a whale from the cliffs, they go, they kiss their wife and hugged their you know, hugged their baby and run out to go, you know, to a very dangerous um hunt. How did you see just from person to person that affecting these Lambi fi, the people that were that were leaders and who had had literally like the way to the world in their backs, because if they don't kill a whale, nobody eats. If they don't, if they die, their whole family is kind of scattered to the community. UM. So talking about that little piece of you know, of what you saw, it's a it's a huge responsibility, as you know, and it really weighs on them. Um. You know, sometimes um things would go wrong without without it being really their fault. You know, they might land a great hit and it might embed and then the whale would use its tail to snap the rope and there's not not much they could do about it. But because of the lamallarious belief system, in which um the outcome of the hunt is basically determined by the ancestors whom they worship, that might be a sign that the Lama file had committed some sort of spiritual infraction. So I really really admired the Lama fun. Not only did they have to do this incredibly difficult and skillful and dangerous physical task, but they really were also looked at as moral leaders of the community and really had to try and set an example for how they acted, um and so that their cruise could follow that and that everyone could be worthy of actually getting the whales. Yeah, and that's and other cultures and and other hunting cultures. We see that UM. I had a gentleman on our podcast named Dushan's Mattana and he is from originally from um Czechoslovakia, and he talks about this idea of the hunters having to choose right. You have to be the most intelligent, the most thoughtful, because you have to choose which animal dies and which lives. You have to choose what's safe and what's dangerous, and you have to bring them them that stuff back to your family and and and you see that in this I mean, you see that these these guys are going to do a very dangerous thing, sometimes over very long periods of time. UM and the one of them, I guess one of the first stories of the books, some of the characters go out, they're hunting whales. They get separated and they I don't know, I'm sure if it's what story I'm I'm thinking of, but they get picked up by they have to get separated, and they get one of them gets picked up by a tour ship and returned, and the other others come back, and it's one of the first times you know, they had that. You talk about the boats have souls, you don't. They didn't want to. They would rather die than see these boats sink. And the ropes have some role to play in the ceremonial sense, in the religious sense. Um. It's very interesting that connection. How did you how did you come to learn about it? Because especially with the language barrier, how they see like the function of this these things in the hunt. Well, they're very open about it. You know, this is something that they would discuss directly. UM. And one of the real joys of getting to be there was I already spoke fluently Bahasa Indonesia, which is the UH national language. Everyone learns it so that way all the groups of you know, all the thousands of different islands can communicate. But I also try to teach myself the language that's just in lamal Era, this sort of tiny language, and that had so many very specific spiritual words and so many things that really weren't able to be described in anything but their language. UM. And the amount of nuance that you can capture in the language that specifically built for something like describing the spirituality the hunt, where even this the hunt itself is much much more nuanced than we can in another language. So for example, um, you know, the saying is that the Inuit have you know, fifty words for snow or whatever it is. You know, they have dozens of different words for hart pooning. They have specific words for you know, strike to the left of the thing, or you know, they even have a word or strike to the right, or you know, the harpoon went under, the harpoon bounced off where you know, they even have a word specifically for when you throw a harpoon and it goes right between the horns of our mant array, you know, just barely missing. Um. So you know, I think that uh, you know, they were just incredibly generous in terms of taking the time to try and teach me these things. They really wanted it to be known. They're very proud of their culture, as they should be, and it's it's richness. And in fact, part of the reason they agreed to do the book is because they wanted people to know about their cultures. That correct. Yeah, So as the outside world has increasingly sort of encroached on their island. Um, they have gotten the sense that partially true, partially untrue perhaps, but they have gotten the sense that there are elements in the outside world that do not want them to continue hunting animals that some of which are endangered. Um. Sprm whales are not endangered. Their hunt probably you know, they take maybe twenty a year. Their hunt does not endangered the global populations. Yeah, but they do hunt other animals such as manta raise, which are correctly considered endangered. And whow you know, it would be hard for a group that's small to damage you know, global populations. Um. You know, conservationists have come after them for threatening local populations and that includes one like the Nature Conservancy and other groups have they have legislation currently going or at some point they had legislation going down there. There have been various attempts over the years to try and legislate it within the Indonesian government. That. Um, then that the lama llarians cannot do x or y or z and they're and they're generally exempt from a lot of laws just from a subsistence hunter. You know, standpoint that is that correct? Right? So under the International Convention for the regulation on whaling um, which Indonesia is not a signature signatory too, but if they were, the lam Larians would probably have a special exemption allowing them to do what they do because it truly is a subsistence. They get most of their calories from the hunt for the whole community. They do not hunt gratuitously, um, and they do it the old fashioned way. Um, they're not using Japanese harpoon bombs and stuff. UM. Indonesian law law is a very complex legal thing that we're probably better one. But you know a lot of countries like this have sort of two sets of laws which are contradictory, one of which is um, you know that indigenous groups can continue subsistence at activities, but also that um, they have modern conservation laws. And in Indonesia, the primacy which one is has you know, has primacy, has not been tested in court yet. So yeah, that's it's interesting, and they are aware. I think that kind of leads me to their awareness of the of the struggle. And you note in the book that I think it's that you say, since like the sixteenth century European you know, movement to take over and kind of similarly modernized in that sense. Other cultures we've seen, we've half the number of cultures that we have in this world. We've seen this this designation of of especially these types of culture subsistence cultures over the years, and that has changed who we are as humans. Um And and really what the Llama Laryans can do is help us look back to what are we now? What were we? What are we becoming? Um? That's a that's a entangled ideological mess, but it's there, and you present it in the book, I think present it. Well. Yeah, well, you know, so as you know, since the sixteenth century, you know, really, since European powers began expanding across the world, the actual literal number of cultures has just diminished by an incredible amount. UM. So, when you know, the Portuguese first started sailing out towards the Indian Ocean, about a third of the world at that point was still covered by hunter gatherer groups, and those groups were not organized by kingdom or empire. Each one was its own unique you know band. You know, probably in with about a hundred people or so, with a unique culture, a unique language, a unique way of surviving in relation to their environment. And as you know, as m empires have grown as uh, you know, colonial empires have turned into modern nation states, and an industrial way of life has spread across the world and you know now occupies the vast majority of it. The number of these hunter gatherer groups has plummeted until they're almost gone. And the literally the number of different ways to live not just hunter gatherer, but as swidden farmers or herders or just sort of what anthropologists count you know, roughly as cultures has diminished from originally from a hundred thousand to about seven thousand, and we're expected to be you know, down to you know, one thousand or so within fifty years. Um. So, really one thing that the book is about is, you know, what does it mean for this great diminishment of the way different ways to be human? What does it What does it mean that we're losing all of these things? Um? And I think you know, one of the unique things about the law Malarrans is they're aware of this predicament and they're actively working against it. Many groups do not have the resources, um or the ability to do what the law Malarians have done, and so the law Molarrans are very actively trying to choose the good out of the modern world and sort of rejected bad. But it will be an ongoing struggle for as long as they continue to exist. Yeah, I mean they're in they're in a very unique position to kind of be on and you know, they're not the last group standing, but they're one of them to be able to to look into the modern world, the thing that has the potential to erase their way of life and see the positives of it. Of course, you say in the book, and I think this is all subsistence cultures. Like generationally, the more the more of the generations progress, the more there is more need to have a connection with that modern world. And that's like ultimately the thing that challenges these cultures the most is that as these new generations come forward, they're stepping into a world where all they have to do is, you know, go across over the mountains, was thirty miles to the town and they can live very modern and comfortable life and it's hard to choose otherwise. Um well, I think, you know, I think a lot of it for you know, both the youth of the Lamillarians and other groups like this is coming. The challenges coming to see the worth of their way of life. Um. And you know, so I think that of the young men that I follow in the book and sort of follow their development over three years, you know, most of them end up, you know, deciding that this is there's really worthwhile things. And I think that that's a decision that we all make, you know, as hunters. You you all, you know, are deciding to do it very much older and you know, in so much ways some ways much more honorable and ancient way of getting your food as well. And it's seeing what's worthwhile in these you know, perhaps less easier, less uh, you know, some you know, quick ways than just going to the grocery store, but that there's a huge amount of worth in these practices that really connect us both to the natural, to the environment, but also who you know, humans have been for tens of thousands of years. Yeah, And I think you say it well in the book that while we see modernity this progress, folks like the Lama Larians might they see it as kind of a you know, and a racing of of who they are and what they do, you know. And we've we always have viewed technology and modernity and the move to be more progressive as is this thing we have to do. It's almost like some weird manifest destiny that we hold where I mean, I think this book accurately shapes why that's not all good and if we lose these cultures, we lost ourselves and in a in a big time way. And I think, you know, in the in the relatively short time we have to discuss the book, I think that's the thing that I that I'm most impacted by. The stories kind of get you there. And I think hopefully everybody goes goes and gets the Last Whalers and reads it. But that's what I came out of it with, you know. And and it may be like feeble to try to compare it to my current state, but because I drive a car and and live in a nice house with air conditioning things like that, but it certainly was impactful for me. Well, thank you, thank you for the kind words, and and you know, to be honest, I don't think it's it's wrong to compare it to our lives here. You know. I think one thing that the Loam lards you in a very unique way is that they're conscious of that decision between you know, a hunter gatherer way of life and an industrialized way of life. This is they know that this is a choice. Um, most of us in you know, American society don't think of it as a choice. And to be honest, none of us are going to truly go back to a hunter gatherer way of life. But we can do little things if we so choose to do, and one of those is hunting. Yeah. Yeah, did did any of this kind of of change the way you look that? You know, what was your going into it? We talked about you grew up in in the Inner Mountain West Salt Lake City and then you know, when I'll go through your whole upbringing. But how much did you think about hunting yourself before and then after? How did you think of it? Was there if you're not doing it? Was there a bitter appreciation for it? Or have you ever considered that in this in this journey for you? Because I know it's a long time. You know, I don't. I'm not a hunter to the extent that you guys are. I have hunted them, but I don't. I think it made me much more greatly appreciate what a fundamental act hunting can be. Um. You know, I think that we as a society in America have lost what spiritual aspects there can be. We look at it at its purely as exploitative and in certain not in all parts of America, but in many parts. And I think that, um, you know, for both American hunters that I know and also for the lawmillarias, people truly draw a spiritual sustenance from it. And I think that that that has been something that that's very profoundly. That's a very great way to put it. I think most of the modern hunters in the States and elsewhere I've traveled to I talked to have a trouble articulating that sustenance, like what it is that's feeding them. And I think by reading this book and learning about this these people, maybe they'll find a little bit of that and be to explain a little bit of why it is they feel so enriched by this activity and why is it they they want to You know, you'll find a lot of people in our modern hunting community that are evangelists for hunting one because it's like you've You've mentioned it's kind of shrinking. The community of people who do it is shrinking, but too because they feel so bettered by the activity that they feel the need to go and spread that idea to people. Um, did the Lama larons ever feel that liked? What did it feel inslur to them? Like they wanted just to to remain with their communities. That they never wanted to spread their life, livelihoods, and lifestyle and culture to other people's. They just you know, they wanted it to be theirs. Yeah, I don't. I don't think that they've ever had the will be all idea of going and converting Come on you, Yeah, this corn sucks, but you know, going sort of going back to to that thing you were saying about the spirituality. You know, I think that for them and in sort of a broad in general sense, you know what hunting does, is it it it gives them a very holistic view of the world. You know, this is literally in their spiritual value that you know, any small action by the lamafof it's you know, against the moral code of the ancestors. You know, ripples out in a way that causes failure, causes bad things. And the actions of the hunter are connected to the coming of the whales, and the hunter's spirit is connected to the boat, which is connected to the whales, and the whales are connected to the spirit of the sun and the sea and everything else. And I think that, you know, without trying to put any specific spiritual gloss on you know, what might um, what hunter American hunters might be feeling is But at least one thing that I have felt when I have hunted has just been, you know, the greater connection. You know, whether it's through the deer or the duck or you know, whatever it is, I've hunted to that greater web of both you know, the natural world, but also you know the spiritual world that and messages it. And I think that that echoes across cultures and across people's no matter where it is in the world. Yeah, for sure. I also if they wanted to make sure we talked about how badass that the Llama larans were, because He's like, there's there's they're just like it. It is. I feel like, as a journalist you want to get into like the real stories, but as if I was just a real sensationalist digital journals, so I'll be like tribe of whalers pulls tiger sharks out of the water, beats him on head with the club, or you know, jumps on the back of a sperm whale and rides it down, stabbing and stabbing it in its head with a bamboo spear. Um. Just for those folks who just want to hear what that's like to see and be a part of what you give a you know a couple of stories where that left you kind of taken aback when you first experienced some of the some of the things that are fairly normal to their culture. But the lamba fa, you know, these folks are badass. This man for for lack of a better term, it's I mean, it really is impressive. How for lack of a better word, how soft or unskilled we've gotten. You know, even even someone like you or my you or me who spends a fair time out in the wilderness, you know who, I think, because fairly decent hand eye coordination and so on and so forth, were nothing compared to people who do it for a living, for real, who are physically active for their livelihood every second of every day. Um. I remember going through the jungle with a young man, maybe twelve or thirteen, who is going to bring me to this spot, um, this sort of the sacred whale stone and uh, he was kept picking up rocks and just throwing them into trees. At least that's how it appeared to me at first. Um, and then I realized he was throwing them at birds, and I was like, there's no possible way he can hit it, but you know, I was sort of like humoring him. And then like then I sort of realized, no, we're getting extraordinarily close every time, and so like the ability just by practicing it, whether whether you're a Lamelaian youth who just wants to eat a jungle bird, or you know Indian American Indian youths who would shoot grasshoppers with um bows and arrows as their training. You do this for your livelihood and you become very good at it. And they're not adrenaline junkies. You know. One other thing about a hunt is that this isn't something they're doing, you know, once a month, and you know they can, you know, perhaps accept a little risk. They have to have this thing be safe enough to do every day. UM, So while it can look you know, spectacular, they tried to be very very careful in terms of walking the line. So you know, while they'll do incredible things, like you know, I saw them. You know, as as you mentioned, dragon mako shark onto into a bow while it was alive because it was you know, it was damaging the boords on the bottom and then you know, just cut its cut its spinal cord um. You know, it's a carefully weighed action. And the men are you know, have coordinate, you know, coordinate and work together. Um. And it's something that they've developed over you know, a lifetime. Yeah, it's it's it's compelling to read, but you could feel that that it's this is not something They're not doing this for adrenaline. They're not doing this too to you know, show off. I mean, they've once have become a lomifi. They've already been kind of exalted in the community, and that's how they've gotten there. But they've only gotten there by being safe, efficient and able to do the job that they need to do. And so it's clear that that that that's that's the activity. It's a more cogent activity than than you would imagine it to be. That just seems insane. Like to watch someone pull a mako shark into a relatively small boat, um, small wooden craft, and I was on it, like I'm like well, let's leave it in the water. It's fine. Um. That's you know, incredibly interesting in regards to butchering these animals. That's something that it was interesting to me, and it's interesting to me. And when it when it comes to a sperm wall, how did they go about? Because I've been around folks in Africa who butcher an elephant, and the you know, in the indigenous folks there will like walk right through the gut pile and take a you know, a rusty blade and chop the seeing videos and Washington person people just chopping up elephant parts and taking hunks. How does it? How does that happen in in the long learning culture. I think that you get used to if you if you're hunted and hunt for a living, you get used to butchering. So usually by the time they drag a whale back, it's usually late in the afternoon and so they don't start until the next day. So the kids go out and play on it like a giant water slide it or like you know King of the Mountains, and then you know, when the tide does come up and and you know, they're able to sort of drag it in, you know, as it floats on the tide up onto the beach. Um M. You know, it's just a normal part of everyday life. It's a two day it's usually about two days to really strip down of you know a decent sized whale. Um. And it's you know, hundreds of people, you know, um going at it with these very specialized flintsing knives which you know are very sharp and very long, so we can get through the foot thick blubber um. And it's it's it's uh, it's a it is a bloody task, um. But it also again it's it's one that has a great meaning and joy for them. You know, they look at it as the ancestors have given them this gift. Um. It's a reward for following the ancestors way. And the most important thing in some ways is that they're sharing it out. Um. So you know that ritual active division we talked about before of you know, making sure that you know, basically everyone gets to peace, even if they're not sort of in the core group that stabbed actually stabbed. It is a time when those bonds get forged and you know, ratified and you know, reinforced between these different groups. Really interesting means do. They use the blubber and they use the teeth that they do everything literally everything. Um uh. They they are probably one of the last groups in the world to still use whale oil. You know, it can be used for cooking, for medicine, for lamps. They still keep whale oil lamps. Um. And the main thing that happens with the meat is that they cut it into you know, about six in strips and dry it and that becomes the currency for their part of the island. So um. Over the centuries, they have developed a very unique set of relationships with the farming tribes that live further up the volcano, which do have access to water but and can grow crops but don't really have access to protein. So basically the way the exchange has always gone is the lamelarians will get protein from the sea, whereas the hunt where the farming tribes will get um carbohydrates from the mountains. And um. They still have a barter market in which you know, one strip of jerky is worth a dozen bananas or a kilogram of rice. And that is for the most part how they get their food. Still. Woh, that's that's amazing. And I do think you tell of of you know, in the book of holding up those oil lamps, And that's what struck me. I think that's they've got to be using whale oil and they've got to be, um, just a subsistance unders Traditionally throughout all cultures have used every part of the thing that they're killing. So that's interesting. What are they I know that by the end of your journey with them, they were wearing like modern textiles and shirts and clothes. But what you know, the books opens up in the early nineties with with a really wholly different tribe and the community than it is today. What did they know? What do they wear traditionally? How did they dress? Um? How they look? If you could describe that. So Lamalira has undergone a huge amount of change in the last generation. Um. Really, up until about two thousand, UM things were going very similarly to how they basically always been going. Um. They they were for the most part purposely rejecting outboard engines. UM. They you know, had a very Yeah they had a small generator for emergency using to use a little bit of electricity, but basically weren't doing that. But since then, um, you know, a small road has been built over the mountain, and the tribe UM has progressively loosened its restrictions. UM. And so when we were sort of talking about before that choice of you know, how much of the outside world you let in and how much of the ancient traditions you preserve, that's been a sliding choice that's happened, you know, over the last I guess nineteen years. And you know, the perfect example of this would be the outboard engines. UM. They've known about them since the nineteen seventies. The United Nations Food and Agricultural Project tried to give them, give them these, you know, incredibly expensive things that all the other tribes in the area wanted, and they rejected them because they felt it would be against against the ancestors wishes. But you know, eventually they needed one to move one of their priests up and down the coast, which which at that point didn't have a road, so that the you know, this old guy could get from one village to the next and preach. And then you know, once they got one, they sort of realized, oh, you know, this is really good for certain things, you know, when we need to go around the island rather than climbing up over these mountains and get someone to the hospital. You know, let's let's have one or two of them in here. Yeah, you sound sort of like the rescue boats that would out. Yeah, and then you know, so then you know, then that's okay. And then you know, then some you know, sort of clever their version of lawyers, you know, decides, you know, like, well, you know it's not legal to hunt the whales with these outboard engines, but what if we hunt the shark over here, you know, and you push the boundaries and okay, eventually it's all right, we can hunt these sharks, or we can hunt these you know, small man to raise, but the whales are not going to be allowed. They can't be these motors can't be involved in hunting the whales at all. And then someone's like, um, so I was like, oh, well, what if we make a special kind of boat and attach a separate kind of boat, not not the whale hunting boat, but a separate kind of boat, and attach the little engine to it, and then attach a rope from the little boat to the big ancient whaling boat and use it, use it just to drag them home. You know, it takes you know, we're carrying that no one wants to roll home sixty tons of meat, so you can, you know, and then eventually that's gets approved, so you can see how um you know this is they have every right to make whatever decisions they want about their future, but still to this point they still draw a hard line. Only the ancient whaling boats are allowed to go after the sperm whale the end of the hunt. That's always what it's going to be. And so um, you know this is this is the negotiation of modernity, of trying to figure out what's good that you're going to pick up and what's not. Um. And I think it's a sort of the something that we're all doing in our own way. Yeah, it's it's you know what I've I've noticed. I have a two and a half year old son, and I've noticed recently that Disney really likes this idea. Like there's a film called what They Love It for Summer. I Like, there's a film called Mwana or it's a young Hawaiian girl that's not supposed to go past the reef and she has to go. Her father's like this island is what we need, don't go past the reef, and she wants this like to go exploring, and it's it's this that's it really is analogous to what you're talking about. And there's another movie called Coco where the family is shoemakers and they don't play music, and this kid's like trying to buck the tide of the traditional way that his family acts and he wants to go play music in the square. So there's something in that, this idea, this this through line in our lives that like there's there's this thing we must honor, but there's is the progressive nature of our own like childish behaviors, but our own you know, new generations that want to go and explore new ideas. And so I found that in this book as well. It's like, this is a real life version of For whatever reason, Disney has taken that up or Pixar, who was making these movies, he's kind of picked up on that um in several ways recently. So it's interesting and then you're a person write about it, well, I think it's a very fundamental tension in the modern world. Um. You know, technological changes happening much faster than ever before. Globalization is um is connecting the world and connecting these groups that you know, we're originally buffer by distance and geography, and so I think that that dynamic between future and past is something that that all of us are going to have to deal with more and more often. And I think it's also important. A lot of times people look at groups like the La Millarians or other you know, other hunter gatherer tribes as sort of frozen in the Stone Age or something, or I sort of throwbacks, and I don't think that that's true. Um, you know, they're they're just as contemporary um cultures as we are human beings. They have just chosen, and you know, most of them have just chosen in a conscious way to continue this way of living. It doesn't mean that it's any more primitive or anymore backwards, or any of these other adjectives that we apply to it. Um, it's just as contemporaneous as ours and we sort of ah and the their choices, they're sort of dynamics, whether it's the want a choice or or you know, the the choice that some of these young hunters are making. Um, it was just as contemporary and modern as as anything that we do here. Yeah, and as as relevant. Um. And there's I can't remember the name of the ceremony, but there's a ceremony they do every year to like list the lost whalers out. Um. That's something that struck me. At the end of the book, you talk about a young man named Ben who died is what is drowned by his spirit of Manta and was pulled under the the ocean and died. Um. It is a pretty powerful way to kind of close out his story and then talking about like he will be resurrected every year when they you know, for a while, he'll be at the top of the list of of all these whalers that of Paris. I'm sure you were attended those ceremonies, Like what kind of take me through that and what that meant to the Lama Larians and their commune, because it was interesting to me to have the way that they did that specific ceremony. Well, I think so what you're talking about is missa are Law, which is sort of the mass mass for for lost souls, um. And I think the one thing the Lawlands do better than our society does is that they keep present in their minds and in the rituals and sort of daily actions of their community. Those who have been lost on you know, and the sort of the physical plane um. And by doing so, those people truly remain part of the community for the living people. And that's not just an expression, you know, they really do feel like they're interacting with them, that those spirits are joining them on the hunt um and are giving them signs and portent and um. You know. I think that that's one of the things that they don't want to lose. I think that that's one thing that's really worth keeping as well. Sure, did you find them to be a happy people? Another that we can say that there might be generational angst obviously with the modernity part of it, But did you find them to be happy in their daily lives? I think that's a complicated question because, like we often talk about, I think it can be a way to it. Two, it's sort of infantilize their culture almost, And I think that they're they're like very I think that they're just as happy and um and also unhappy as we are. You know, they're human beings. I think that their society is structured in certain ways that bring out certain types of happiness better than ours does. None of them are basically ever lonely. Um. You know, and this is true across most hunter gatherer groups because things are so collective and so communal. But at the same time those can also for that sort of collectivism can also provide a break to or you know, a slow down to individual ambition. Um. So, at the same time as you might never be lonely if you have to sort of share whatever resource you get, you can never really keep any for yourself, so that you might be able to build up a stockpile of fish that you could then go to the town and sell to buy a net which you could then catch more fish with, and so on and so forth. And that's and I've had young hunters expressed me frustration about that. Um. Yeah, there's some socialism in that hunts. It's like the the idea that if you're a really good hunter doesn't really matter because you're sharing it. Either way, you could be a so so hunter or the best harpoon harpoon is still on the boat, but either way you you must share it with everyone. Oh, it's yang and yang of that idea. I'm sure that's what I wondered about in reading the book, Like I struggle with certain things in my life, you kind of have this much of our modern society is detached from the family units that that were so prevalent in this country in the turn of the century, and all and on we've moved we oftentimes I have moved away from our family units and and done those types of things. UM. And I think that's striking to me that you know, these folks live that's really all they know is that they live in this this small community and the same people every day, and their their families are there. Their traditions are all insular. Um. How did you feel going there? Were you? Were you jealous of any of their traditions? Did you wish that you could bring back some of these things to to our world? Did you did you want to bring some of our ways of living to them? I mean, how much did you weigh those those things? I think as a journalist very much my goal was to not you know, I just I'm an observer. I try not to affect events or to change things. Um. And so I very much didn't want to sort of bring anything in with me. Um. It was a great joy to be able to become, you know, two friends. And I still keep you know, in good touch with a lot of these people. Um, and you know I miss him like I. You know, it's it's it's something that I truly, Um, you know, there's nowhere else I can speak that language. And you know sometimes I have dreams in that language still And uh, it's both a joyful and a lonely experience. It's a great way to put it. Is there something to wrap up here? Um? Is there something that you know from this book that you would hope you know? Is there? We've talked about a lot of I think that through lines of the book, in the in the very tent pole ideas of how you've built a story. But is there one boiler point that you'd want everyone to know that's a hunter now is trying to relate to? Because often in the honey community we talk about our ancestors and the fact that we feel of that in our activity. Is there something that you would boil that all down to from what you've learned from all this time? UM? I know that's a tough one, but I think that one of the more important lessons that I drew from the Lamellarreans is that you know, how much we live in industrial lifestyle, is a choice like it. You know it. You can consciously choose how much you want to participate in that, whether it's um going and being a true whaler forever for all of your calories, or you know, just being a hunter and in in an American sense and getting um with the spiritual and physical sustenance from that. Well. Well, it's a great book. I enjoyed reading and I'm sure I'll read it many more times. I found it, you know, just for the way I think of the world. I found it profound in many many ways. Um, it's called again, it's called The Last Whalers. Doug about Clark is there. Um, I'm sure people can get anywhere books are sold. Anywhere books are We'll go get it. I am a big fan of the book the conversation. UM, thank you very much for having in your home, and UM for the conversation. It's been. It's I'm gonna probably listen to the audiobook with the way back on the Plane because I do. I feel like there's so much detail in there. I probably missed something. UM, So thanks for the work. It's great. Thank you. Oh that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you too. Doug Bok Clark, Thank you too, Miles an oldte and thank you to Phil are the new the newest member of the Meat Eater family and of the Hunting Collective family. It's a good episode. Hopefully guys found it. It's just a little bit of a different subject. We traveled all the way across the world to kind of discuss who we are and what hunting means to us and what it means our humanity and and all those things. So I appreciate you kind of diving into those complicated topics. Try to keep it as light as we could. Go pick up Doug's book, Man the Last Whalers is a great read, and if you don't like read and pick up the audiobook either way. UM, I got no no stake in that game other than I really like his work, So go check that out. What else? What else? Oh? Th h C at the meat Eater dot com. Th h C at the meat Eater dot com. Please continue to send me your emails and thoughts on the show. Your audio clips again one to two minute audio clip speak right to your phone, review the show something, ask the question, whatever you want to do, send me the file play him at the end of each show as you're here in a minute. We actually have a comedian that sent us an audio file this time. His name is Tyler Sitar. He's a he's a comedian, and he has a little bit about hunting. So why not play that at the end. The audio quality is iffy, but it's some someone's pretty funny, So give Tyler a play here in a minute. But um, before we go, I just wanted to mention and nobody really asked me to do this, but I think it's really cool. My friends at Yetti opened up another, well what they'll call flagship store or the Yetti retail store in Charleston, South Carolina. It's a cool place. If you follow them on Instagram, you've been seeing all the musical performances, all the culinary events they've been having there. I just think it's cool that a brand like Jeddie is reaching out and doing something in a town like Charleston. So if you're ever in Charleston, go over and visit the Eddie Store. Um, it looks like a pretty cool place. I've not been there, but I'm gonna go. It's gonna be a badass. So that's really all I got for this week. Next week, We're going to be joined by Tyler Sharp. Tyler Sharp is the editor in chief of Modern Huntsman, so he's got a lot to say about the current state of hunting in our world. It's some pretty interesting and perhaps inflammatory. Thanks. So we'll see how it goes on. We'll see you next week. I want to leave you with a little comedy and then a little old number seven see you reason Yeah but I care like Yeah, I kill something help tail deer hound Yo. All had an easy tree stand because of the tower. I'm not afraid of lights, but ever for the falling. So I my bold London from the right road. I we had to Joe Chambo. Why did my guys gounts are not tell me I have could be ramble for black Side? I should We had a hut of hand. Why does he not have any dream? Because I was fantastic. It was awesome. You don't think n thing is an addiction? You never spend Farmers and a flat bars looking barrel clutching for sparing box here the girlfriend rond a relapse ship. You're at the flat bar Honday is awesome. Somebody, somebody every time I talked about Undy, do really O you shot a defenseless animal, like a deer is not defenseless when you you say, with the deer on an airplane? No, what did you look at your funny? You know he look at me delicious, you know, like steaks for his lower I'm read there he fall is dear enough looking hoping DC fantasy stagers listen used a way that's not fair much world, dear fair hand like that's gotta leaks, part idiot, there's a frame. Fis your kids a deal with a bike and chopper heads of your coal kid? I'm looking at a smart phone. But he wear her miner rolls too. Can I try to chip the sand like playing my trunk to the parts. He's like a chopping spreet, Yeah, astracing his whole John Gas is a bummer affection. That's happened a lot of word low number seven Tennessee. Who whiskey got me drinking heaven and h and just stopped to look good to me. They're gonna have to department to the fire. Redeed, oh the fire, indeed drinking in the fire, redeed o the finy d drinking heaven

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