00:00:02 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to the second episode of the Hunting Collected podcast. I've been O'Brien and I am joined in the second podcast by the one and only Ryan Callahan. You guys probably know Ryan from his time with Meat Eater, or even more likely know him from his role with First Light Clothing and all the things they do at that brand. But where are you knowing from? I don't know. Is that important in this case? The fact is Ryan is good people. I mean, if you say Salt of the Earth, you think Ryan Callahan a guy that isn't about the flash, isn't about the show, isn't about all the things that that may go into someone's reputation on honey industry. Man, he just loves hunting. He loves wilderness, he loves public lands, he loves to kill, he loves to cook, he loves to eat, and as you'll find out in this episode, he loves to educate. And he's somebody that I greatly admire, not only for what he's doing, but what he can do. And I think this conversation will show you that he's thought long and hard about his position in the hunting industry. He has a lot to say and we can all benefit from Ryan Galahans and his mustache in the hunting world. So for Numero two, we're gonna come to you from the Salt Palace Convention Center in Salt Lake City. We're at the Western Hunting Expo, sitting and it's so Yota to come and pick up on the trade show floor. Amiss the madness, So enjoy this conversation, Bryan. Mr Brian, describe in your best first where we are current time. I feel like, um, we are on like our own little alien ship here observing the people of Earth. Um. We we are inside a Yetti branded uh Toyota, sitting on the show floor at the Western hunt Expo here in Salt Lake City, Utah. And we're there's literally a sea of people wandering around us. And I would say one out of about thirty or forty looks over and realizes there's two guys with headphones on and sitting inside of Toyota. Do you think they think we're creepy? There's definitely if you make an effort to lock eyes with somebody that you definitely get a weird double take. That's currently a child out looking at me like with It's pretty I'd be lying if I said it's not fun. I like this. I'm glad we did it here and not like in a just a normal setting, because this gives us a chance to really reflect on solitude and the human race in the nature of trade shows. It's fascinating, right, I mean, I think it's fascinating. I think I make no bones about it. Like being in it's it's a trade off between m being you know, largely antisocial in the woods and then all of a sudden it's like severe social time. Yeah, like severe is a good word for it. It's a severe I would The question I have for you is which what is worse on your body and mind, Like a month in the back country during elk season or a month at trade show season in the various cities Vegas, Salt Lake included. Oh, I don't think there's any doubt trade show season is harder on you know, all aspects of mind and body, and and it's not like it and I think you could argue that you're really stretching your mental capabilities, like having you know, thousands of conversations and things. But at the end it all kind of blends together too, So yeah, you're not really sure what town you're in or you're talking to, but you're pretty sure. I'm pretty sure you're okay. The steak tastes all right, but but it's not doesn't taste that good, No, I mean that's yeah. It can be like generic meal thirty seven B, yeah, thirty seven B. Yeah, at some at some level, I was telling somebody to day, like you eat, you have this social hour. You have a meal with varying people. Sometimes it's the same person as the last night, most times it's not. And then you have stay and around and is it's the cloud of of human beings and try to get some sort of conversation with substance to going. But it rarely ever happens. It doesn't. And that's the kind of the weird thing from like a true trade show. We're at a consumer show where at so it's open to the general public and it's a little bit different. But trade show where you're supposed to be taking care of like trade matters is the theory, like it never happens, and it's all partial conversations that you're like, oh, well, we gotta follow up because everybody's too busy to actually complete something. So yeah, the conversation of substances, and I would also says just a point of of where we are right now, that we're sitting in the truck inside of what is the total archery challenge, and there is a group of people shooting flu flu arrows at foam disks literally feet in front of us, and there is at some level are going over our heads. The arrows are somewhat going over our heads. And I think the archers themselves are would are so locked into the targets that they have no clue that we are here, don't know that we're here at all. Well, maybe we'll end the podcast by just just a commentary on what's happening, just kind of a play by play yes on this situation currently here in Salt Lake City. What are the ground rules for your podcast? Ben? Is there is its free thought? Is it cussing? Is it you can cuss? Okay, for sure, it's definitely free thought. I think, Um, now, after the first podcast with Steve, we had to we fixed the audio problems hopefully, so now we have like we got the you know, the technical difficulties out of the way the first one. I think going forward, we just need to figure out what we're supposed to talk about what And that's why did you want to do this? Why did you want to do a podcast? Vin with UM? Well, I mean I started my career in journalism, right, So I always fancy myself some sort of storyteller or at least interested in other people's stories rather than my own, Right Like I didn't necessarily always want to, um have a camera on me. I always felt fairly uncomfortable in that situation. But what I did feel comfortable and is telling other people's stories. And what what was important to me I was being able to do that and whatever career that I had, And so I started out at a print magazines and digital and actually doing that UM my current career at Yettie. We're distroyed storytellers as well, we just do it in film in some different ways. So for me, this is just a another way. It's a burgeoning way that people tell stories, you know, and this is a way for people to learn my story, but but less that and more to learn yours and Steve's and the collective group of people that we you know, surround ourselves with. If you learn all those people stories becomes this weird tapestry of ideas and philosophies and ideologies that comes together to form this thing that we do that's hunting, because we all come from I come from a far different place from where you came from. Yeah, have you And I'm always afraid of redundancy, but have you covered your upbringing? Because little Kenyan I um, when we've you know, first got together in a setting where we could actually talk, um, Yeah, because you're East coast um and uh, you kind of had the similar thread that you and I have. You kind of have. It wasn't your dad, right, it was. It was partially my dad, but like I had a name, yeah that was It was a mentor, right, and my dad was You know, you have to be like to have both things. You have to have that mentor that that person that you know, maybe as a kid coming up, you're not always really good listening to your parents because you've got to do that all the time, listen your parents seven. So if there's another voice there, if there's another outlet for you to kind of push your energy towards. I feel like it helped. It certainly did help me. Having our neighbor, Bill Miller, was just a fantastic redneck son of a bitch and all the proper like he would wear buckskins in the weekend, he would like wear buckskins and come over with muzzleloaders and we'd yeah, throw axes at trees and like, it was just this proper redneck outlet that we needed to we needed to come on. We'll wait here for a minute till that's it. You'll hear various announcements of sheep tags being sold and child being lost or whatever. Occasionally people staring, yep, somebody might get in the back of the truck. I think they might go for a ride at some little anyway. I mean, I think my upbringing was probably different than a lot of people that have that are in the industry. A lot of you know, a lot of people I've met have that Western background. Some people I met have that mid that Midwestern background, and and it's markedly different than what I experienced. It's markedly different than where I grew up. I mean, we dear season was very it was tribal, it was communal. It was we were five or six or eight dudes with rifles and whatever antler we saw got shot, and then there wasn't There was a lot of tactics involved. There wasn't a lot of talk about the philosophies of why we did it. It was mostly just spending time together. And I remember my favorite part would be we'd kill five or six deer, we'd have a skin party in the garage. That's my favorite party of hunting, my absolute favorite, other than like the anticipation of getting up in the morning and standing on our front porch and just like feeling the cold and feeling the silence and waiting for everybody kind to assemble and getting the trucks and go. Those two moments I remember this a kid, like, those two moments were my favorite moments. That early morning frost and you just you know, I had like this old pair of coveralls that stand out there, and my dad'd be making lunch and all that, and you just realized that, you know, this is a calm before the storm. And then the after party was was coming back down from you know, time spent. And you know, I don't know if that's very much different from a lot of people, but I think just the environment that I grew up as pretty redneck. I mean, when I look back one at the time, I thought this is normal. That's what everybody's doing. But there wasn't There wasn't trophies, there wasn't talk of I mean it was it was it a six or an eight or four or ten. Then there was never We never knew how to measure, and we never thought about that. And so I came from that angle. And I think part of one into podcast is like we all come from such different angles, like we all come at this thing and then and we change every single I change every year. In fact, I sit down um every year and kind of take a day, you know, early in the season whenever it is to think about, like, how have I changed from last year? What what are the things I'm unwilling to do now that I was maybe willing to try before. That's interesting, you know, what are the things you know? What are the things that what are just you know, some of the ideas that I questioned now that I every question before, you know, so you change. So I think that's to the answer. The original question is just that the expiration of that, it's some weird catharsis that I have to talk to smart people and explore some ideas and things that I question because there's a lot of stuff in hunting that I don't like, I'm not afraid to say that. I don't think that's a detriment to hunters as a whole. I just think, just like anything else, we got a lot of stuff to figure out. The Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of questions, right like um, and being in the positions that that we are in and are you know, different jobs? But you get this like, yeah, I just want to get into the hunting industry. And I always question because that's we're on the topic of questioning, like what really is the hunting industry? I mean you're selling coolers? Yeah? Is that the hunting industry? Right? But you know, you guys, the way you tell stories and do you embrace hunting certainly is and you know we're selling clothes, um, and like what what would be the core of the hunting industry? Yeah, what is the core of hunting? And shot man? I how do you how do you associate your going hunting with a group of people? Like how do you associate your what you do alone or with close friends with a larger community? Like what's your you know, what's your association with the eleven million people that hunt? And you know, the even smaller group that call him as part of the industry air quotes. I don't know what that is. My association to it is it was the way for me to spend almost all my time free time outside of my family with people that do what I do, care about what I care about. Um, there's other ways to do it, conservation groups, you know. But I mean we both work for companies that are part of this, but there's other many other angles to get into it. So I just always see it is like the association with this group of people, uh, and going back to that group of people like that I care about that I don't. I don't take for granted that there's a lot of people that do what we do. Some of them maybe have never thought about the ideas we could present and in this format like this podcast and you know, talk through some stuff that maybe they've never when they never thought of before. And in the first podcast, Steve Ronella talked about points where he read a book or he read you know, Pinochet, or he read a guy like Um Roosevelt and one of his ideas presented change the way that Steve saw either his own hunting or his relationship with other hunters like those ideas, just the exploration or or a statement could change the way that people see and act and feel in the hunting world. So I mean, maybe that's how we're part of it. The exchange of ideas makes us part of it. I don't know. Yeah, not smart enough for that. It. Um, it is so funny. I talked to a friend of mine that actually UM works for Patagonia UM and they have a position called the director of Philosophy, and I was I was really getting a kick out of that. My next title director can you change? I mean, I feel like it at first Let you could change? He say, Hey, Kenton, I'd like to be the director of philosophy and you can probably make that happen. Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm struggling whether or not that'll be the poll after this. We're gonna put this up in a pall. Do you want Roan Cale to be introduced as director of philosophy for First Life? But hunting is this like, whether you want to admit to it or not, however you participate here. UM, it is a deeply philosophical thing, right. It's myself personally, and and I know certain groups within the hunting world and certain organizations and things try to preach this message, but for me, I can tell you it is very true. Like I feel like, to my core, I have a deeper appreciation for these animals that I hunt. And and you know, be open and honest here, it's not every single uh creature out there that that I feel this way about. It's it's truly the ones that I've spent the most time on the mountain pursuing, watching, um, getting to know the ins and outs of how they operate. Um, Like, I have a deeper love for those animals and eventually I kill him Like that is a bizarre thing. And how do you explain that to somebody? Well, that's that's where we're we're talking about dinner. The other night. I was like, we have unfortunately or fortunately however you want to look at it, stumbled into a passion that is hard to explain. And there was a writer, um, Michael Poland who wrote this. He's a liberal activist and um, you know, a known author, and he wrote this book called The Omni War's Dilemma where he you know, went hunting, pig hunting in California and there's this big es start about his pig hunt. He goes with these rednecks. I mean, the guys he went with were pure, pure pig hunting rednecks. And he at the end of it all, he said, the thing that struck him the most that from the inside, hunting looks so much different than it does from the outside, like in there in, he said, there is simply no way to explain that chasm, like there's no way in his view. And here's this is a Polish surprize winning author too. He is accurately experiently teaching at Harvard, right, so a smart fellow from the outside looking at one more Harvard degree that's in this truck. We currently have zero. Let's say, Yeah, here's a guy who's thought about a lot of things pretty critically, um, you know, and he and he talks about that at length about how it's it's so much different. And and so here we are, you know, we're we're both you know, relatively younger fellas um, a little bit younger than you. But I think we you know, we're maybe the first generation that really has been truly faced with this, with this problem that hunting looks so much different from from the outside looking in, because hunting really wasn't available to the mass population. Before so a media and before the modern media age, hunting really wasn't It was a closet. It was a book. People could only read the cover. Now they can read every page. And so now we're our generations having a just course and find a different way to represent things. And what I'm proud of and happy of you guys like you are doing your best too to make that happen, because there's no other choice. We don't have a choice but to rewrite the book in some way. I certainly, man, I certainly don't feel like we do have a choice. I think there's a number of things going on right now that I feel like, if you want to call yourself a hunter, and if you want to use this tagline that's out there, the hunter conservationist thing, that's not just hunting. That is you've got to be an active partisans a punt um because hunting is being discussed in a lot of rooms, uh, in powerful rooms where people are making decisions and hunting. There is not a hunter in that room. And that is a scary, scary thing. And uh one thing that I have learned on dealing with um lots of folks in the government is they're very busy people and they're being advised, and it is scary sometimes too when you actually get to hear what they have to say, what these advisors have told them, because they're they're busy people too, it turns out and they're not getting the full picture. Well, you say, one thing Joe Rogan says a lot of times of his podcast about the Office of the President is that it's it's an impossible job. It's a task we've given some one, one person that's it's seemingly impossible to achieve. You know, in the in Mike Row versions of that Secretary of Interior is an equally impossible job to to put together. You know, you are you are, and you're just expected to be a figurehead but also a policy expert at the same time. You know, you're expected to be a public speaker, but also um, someone that can get down the weeds and understands the people. I mean, that's a tough thing to do. Yeah, we just be out on the construction site and uh, the the future homeowner would show up on occasion, and you know, they're paying for all this stuff, so they certainly have a right to be there. But they Yeah, what's building you know, door frame ers, whatever, and yeah, why are you doing it that way? What about this way? Like you ever build one of these before? Nope? I go okay, well you want to just trust me on this one. And then you think about voting for the president of the United States, Like how many people have some knowledge of that how that actually works? Like it's it's kind of a bizarre thing. I don't want you tell me how to swing a hammer, because I know how to swing a hammer. Not a whole lot of people know how to swing that hammer. Yeah, I mean it's it's going into the posse and that. And I would say I joined the National Board of b h A about a year ago, and you just have been elected, So congratulations and welcome, Thank you. I feel like it's a little bit like somebody giving you a puppy. Yeah, we're like, oh, great puppy. Yeah it's nice. Press release about that puppy was fun. But now I got this puppy and shipping everybody. Yeah, and if it needs training and taking up a lot of time, yeah, um, I think part of that for me. You know, I'm not uh board type of fella. You know, I don't never say, I never saw myself. I saw boards, is like groups of people that were important. UM. And when I got on there, though, I I slowly started to realize the things that I did not know. Not that I didn't know anything about public lands or the policies or or have strong beliefs about the right way to do it, but some of the machinations and some of the things that go on inside of the of a group like b h A and then the larger conservation organization, you know, spectrum as a whole. There's a lot of things that I did not know. And I'm glad I did it, just because you know, it has been a master class in and how those things work, and how policy gets created, and how it gets pushed from one side to the other UM and how influence happens. And I've learned quite a bit and I'm happy to have that knowledge and maybe be able to tell some other folks like, hey, this is this is why this door frames on this door like I did, maybe I didn't. This is why that that was built that. Yeah, Like now I can look at the house that is our collective conservation efforts will be like, wow, that's why the windows look like that that's why the door looks like that, UM, And I couldn't before and so that's been a pretty pretty great experience. UM. But but one that goes to your point of there's a lot of people who are not even knowledgeable about the specific issues that can't carry that over into just in the reality, in the tangible sense of how it actually gets done. You know, how policy gets created, or how bills get signed, or how, um, how conservation actually works. And that's what I'd love to hear your point on this. I think that'd be nice to shift to a thing that I always try to try to say and I've got varying reactions to it. And I think that we say like hunters are conservationists. I don't think that's true at all. I think hunters are hunters. Conservationists are conservationists. Hunters or have been in through our model of conservation a primary tool for for people that are conservationists. You know, I'm with you, with you now. So translocation is a tool hunting, another tool used in different ways at some level, obviously very different, but they're both um ways to get at that same goal when you go hunting. The problem with calling yourself a conservationist, and then somebody who's never hunted before. The problem with that is then, like, if you're a conservationist, why do you hunt the way that you do, If you're out there to manage a population and to maintain carrying capacity and habitat in the way that you you hunt, why do you do this and this and this and this because those things are more a personal pursuit based And now you're not a conservationist, You're now you're just hunting. Yes, So if you were there too truly manage that population, Yeah, if that was your sole goal, why do you take thirty days to do that? To find a buck that has four points? And similar similar case, similar case, when you say I hunt for meat, we're like, oh, okay, well what about the time where you picked up a bow? Like what about the time um that you didn't just shoot the first thing you saw? Like those meat and conservation I think as hunters are by products of the activity. We're acknowledging those byproducts and we know they're there, We study them, we enjoy them. We understand that the byproducts of our going a field are conservation for wildlife and the being part of our model. But then also meat is going to happen at the end. But when we're hunting, what we're doing, what we do, there's there there's personal reasons why you act the way you act. When you're working out of the mountain and you're not walking around thinking gotta give meat, gotta save the gotta save the population. You're you're thinking, I want an experience, I want adventure, I want to be with people I love and care about. I want to learn, I want there's there's all kinds of things you're thinking about that we should just acknowledge when we're talking to people that don't hunt, the things that we use as reasons to go. Sure, there are reasons we go, but we're out there, we're not. That's not the full its the you know, full picture. We have to maybe at some levels separate those as the reasons why we go hunting, because we don't. Our actions don't support those words at some level. Does any of that makes sense to you, Ryan Callahan, Yes, much much of it of it does. I would say, you know, looking, the reason hunters are conservationists is because hunters are purchasing things tags, bullets, rifles, um. And this is just on the hunting side of things that the fishing side has has its side also on Often those worlds overlap, right, um. But it is because of the purchases that a percentage of those purchases go into a big bucket, and that bucket full of cash at the end of the year then gets to be towards conservation, true conservation. It goes to the States based on a percentage of their amount of hunters, and they they put it towards all kinds of things, wildlife, refugees, hunter safety, you name it. Yes, Now, the reason you aren't truly justified and saying I am a conservationist because I am a hunter is because you were. You know, all these individual purchases are not are not cutting it. The conservation work is much different than buying your tag or duck stamp. And please do buy those tags and duck stamps. And I'm not download who cares. That's I care. I care, and that is important. But if you really want to call your conservations, call yourself a hunter conservationist, it is more than making those purchases. Absolutely it's and what is the threshold, I guess, like is it? I think it is absolutely damned important to go to your fishing game meetings. I think it is absolutely damned important to go um to your you know, your city council meetings. I mean this is you'd be shocked at how many city council meetings I've been to and and actual hunting issues come up, you know. Oftentimes it's on things that are incredibly near and dear to my heart, and it's uh, you know, a lot of these new developments out there, they have ease months, public ease months built into them, so you can traverse through a neighborhood and newly developed neighborhood or one that's been around for a long time to get to that national forest back there, that BLM back there. And man, I tell you, there's a lot of people that have moved into some of these developments and they see a guy at four am walking through their yard with a oh, and they do not like that. And at these city council meetings, oftentimes you'll see people be like, well, some guy I was walking through and that's that's how I got kind of weapon, yeah because I am yeah, so um, you know, and that is participating and I would think conservation work can get done there, but it'd be an advocacy statement. Um, and you know what is true boots on the ground, conservation. It can be a lot of different things, but man, you better volunteer at least some of your time and effort if you want to say, I am a hunter and a conservation and we've built in right so if you buy I always one of the ARGANSLAS makes. If somebody has egotistical or ill reasons to go hunting, they still have to play legal hunting. They still have to play the game and the rules. We've said it up So no matter what their motivation is, they're still in the game. There's still that money for the bow, the rifle, the am with they bot still going into Pittman Robertson phones, their duck stamp they buy is still going back into that federal pool. Like, no matter what their motivations are, they're still they're still benefiting wildlife in some way. Right. But I mean it's amazing, Like, so take Pittman Robertson, which is the excise tax for UM firearms and ammunition. Um, you know, hunters aren't making the bulk of those purchases, which is it's something we like to think, but that's not the true no way. I mean this thing. This is a I was robbing writing an article currently on it on Pittman Robertson for for Peterson's Hunting. And one thing that I found, well, I think said's seven during FDR that was, you know, on the heels of Teddy Roosevelt and National forests and just a push to really solidify how we take care of our wild life because as everyone knows, and neither many decades prior we did not. We killed them all at wholesale. And so in the in the building of this base that we we work in today. UM, the idea that hunters would pay for this privilege to go hunting became a thing, and we're you know, where what are we eighty years past that? Um? And if you look out in this room and all these people that are staring at us in this truck right now, I would guess that a good percentage of them do not know what Pittman Robertson is. You agree, Yeah, I'd be shocked if we found otherwise. Yeah, I think five out of ten might have an inkling of what it is. Generation generationally, they're removed from that idea. My dad, God bless my dad. I told him about Pitt and Robertson like a month ago. He's been paying into it since he was ten years old. He's sixty four, fifty four years painting in Pittman Robertson. A month yet we found out what it was. My jaws, my jaws dropped. And so in the in the in my research for this article, I just every person I ran into, I say, what's Pittman Robertson, And I would tell you about three out of ten new what it was. One out of ten. I felt like I probably asked a hundred people. One out of ten really knew what it was. Three out of ten knew that it was some sort of tax we paid to benefit wildlife. And so I say, say, we're so generationally moved from the idea that Pitt and rode we needed to have Pitt and Robertson. Then we as hunters can't tell that story very well. You know, I would welcome anyone to come and challenge us on that, but I think it's true. And this kind of that's why I like this. I'm a hunter, and what is the saying like, I'm a hunter? Conservation? Honey, Well, hunting is conservation. Yeah, it's not. And I feel like that that can be that that slogan itself can be detrimental to hunting as a whole. How much Hubris has built into that idea because it allows people to not do anything. Well, so I am, I'm like, oh no, you're not the biproduct of your activity is. But you can still go hunting and not know what Pittman Robinson is. My dad's case for fifty four years, you're not. You didn't do anything other than buy something someone told you to buy. Like, you didn't actively you didn't actively take part in it, although you did so like you said, it's it removes some like tacit ownership away from the hunter has to say like, well, if I don't know what Pittman Robinson is, I still have to pay the tax, So what do I care? Like, that's just what a license cost. What that's what a gun cost is, what a boat cost, That's what a license cost. I don't know the tenants of the North American Wildlife Conservation. I don't know those seven or eight tenants or whatever it is. And and yeah, so that in hunting could be seen as like we're all one giant scalpel and we're trimming out, uh, a little bit of the fat off off of our herds that we are growing. UM. And and that part is a conservation tool, management tool. UM. And yeah, there is there's plenty of human wildlife conflict out there, so yeah, that that makes sense. But it is shocking to me and I always you know, I especially after this trade show here in the heart of Utah, having so many people grabbed me and not talk about UM, you know, these random appearances on on meat Eater and the podcast and not talk about first light clothing that I've been you know, has been my whole if UM for the last six years. But say hey, thank you so much for what you do for our community, for what you do for conservation. UM. Having so many interactions like that, I have always you know, when people, hey, thanks for what you do for conservation, Like it's always kind of felt disingenuous to to a degree, UM, but your eyes kind of start to slowly open to the fact that there's so many people out there doing so little that the little bit of time that I'm able to put in it is actually a big deal. And it's kind of scary to think about. And all of a sudden, I'm a dude that people are pointing a finger out and being like, oh yeah, conservation guy, conservation you think. But I just think about this way too. If you're not If you're a new hunter, and I said to you, like, hey, here's this stuff you gotta do to be a hunter. And I said, you gotta learn how to read a map, read a compass. You learn how to shoot a bow or a rifle and be proficient with a weapon. You gotta learn how to gain access to ground. You gotta learn how to track. You gotta learn how to judge an animal. You have to learn how to skin it. You know, learn how to take its guts out. You gotta learn how to take the meat off its body. You gotta learn how to store that meat, use that meat, and eat it. Maybe like that's a lot, man, I'm like, all right, well I've got some more stuff. You also have to learn about the natural world, the natural history of the animal, where it lives, how it thrives, your role in that, develop a bunch of philosophies around that, and then learn about its habitat. And then maybe like no, man, then i think I'll play tennis. You need to be able to mentally write all that up and articulate it in a way that you can then positively educate influence a non hunter to carry the role on again, and then everybody have you presented that, Yeah, that's it, that's it simple. I'd be like mm about video games, video games, Xbox thing. Yeah, I mean I think it's super It's just a daunting idea. And I don't. I don't. You know, you're going back to my dad not know him, Pip and Robinson is. I don't. I'd never take that against him or anyone else. I just think it's so complicated. Just the act of hunting in itself is so complicated. If you start to put on the icing of conservation and be like you gotta understand all that you know back to my joining b h A and understanding you even, there's so many levels and layers to it that I don't. I would never put it hold it against someone to say like, it's enough for me in my life call myself a hunter and and know how to respect the animal and do the things inside of the bubble at his hunting. Anything outside of it someone else has to take care of for me. Set it up so I don't screw it up and let me just do it. That's all I have time for. And like, I respect that I don't know that. I don't know that that's a bad thing. Um. And if this conversations like this can help to add layers to their knowledge, opinions and what they can do, great, I mean I think that's that's maybe the point. But if anybody listening out there that thinks that we're calling you out because you're not out there doing habitat work on the overgrowing junior person, you're you know, in your public land, we're good with that. You don't need to do that. If you want too, great, you know, join these groups and go um. But we can acknowledge it's a daunting idea. It's all of that together. It would be so easy to just shut up and sell clothes. Um. But you know, my day starts with answering. You know, emails that are you know, could turn people off of First Light forever if I were to answer them improperly, And it'd be a lot easier to just be like, oh jeez, I never got that email, but it's like I got one yesterday. Why are you guys so anti shrinking of monuments. I'm like, well, this, uh, the way this question is posed. I'm sure this person probably doesn't. It seems like they have an agenda. They have an agenda. This is a quicksand type of situation. But I feel like it's my responsibility to if we're going to take a position on something, it's my responsibility then to explain why we came to that position. And um, you know I I certainly do not want to. I feel like I'm a king issuing decrees. Um. If folks can prove me wrong, I will gladly uh write another position that says, hey, I used to think this, Now I think this much like that's okay, yeah, much like I've talked about, you sit down every year and think about your hunting gear and what how it changed you. I mean that that's everything in your life. Conservation say, you know, I never I don't know how many people before the recent um dust up with national minds really thinking about national monuments as a point of hunting and fishing. Not a lot I would, I would adventure. I guess not a whole lot of people were. I'll guarantee there are people hunting on those monuments. But they don't think that that is the monument. Yeah, yeah, the Washington Monument. Yeah, I get that, but but I don't I'm walking around on this ground. It doesn't feel like there's no pictures of old white guys around, you know, it doesn't feel like a monument and what they're talking about. So yeah, that that that monument was just a complicated situation on the ground. I think, look, look, it looks a whole lot different than it does from everybody's feet view that they gain from media for wherever they get their knowledge. Um, it's a shame that that piece, you know, bears ears specifically has become a political football to be passed back and forth from from um, you know, from office to office. But that's that's it. And and maybe and then in a way, that's good that we can talk about it and be like, Okay, let's how many people have educated themselves on national monuments that had no idea what they were, what they did. There's a giant chunk of giant chunk of the reason monuments scared me so much was or this shrinking of the monuments scared me so much, is you know it to me, it really brings to light that this stuff was created with a stroke of a pan. It can be resized next, re whatever with the stroke of a pan. And I think hunters do a poor job of explaining or being even willing to step out and say, hey, you know, actually that place is really important to me because I think there's part of all of our hunting brands. Or if that, well maybe if I just shut up and nothing happens nobody, then I'll just have that place to myself. So uh, you know, so I'm like, oh, well, what if what if they you know, I didn't hunt on Grand Staircase as Galante or bearers ears, And I talked to quite a few folks who who do now and and have grown up in that area. I mean, many of which came out of the woodwork when we issued a monument statement UM, which tell people what that's even was so digging through everything, it felt like from the top on down UM and media outlets included that UM. There were many many statements out there that were had just a little too much uh built in media buzz in there from you know, Padagon Yes saying the president stole your land and our president saying I'm giving this land back to the people like you can't. Anybody that would see that situation and be like, both of those people are lying to me. Anybody that would would argue with you that, like, those two hyperbolic statements aren't both lies and the truth doesn't lay somewhere in the middle is insane. But how can you look at the same situation one person say I'm saving you, one person say he's killing you. You can't both are lying, Both are lying. I don't know a lot of people would say like one personality truth, ones like no, no, no. Both in some ways are shifting the idea of what the truth is. Yes, and I've and the history is you know, we had signed on first Light as a company, had signed on to letters from different organizations, um, you know, uh, you know a year ago saying you know, hey, we know that you're thinking about adjusting these monuments. Very concerned about the lasting effects on the Antiquities Act, which you know, I believe the Antiquities Act, when when used properly, has benefited hunters and and people of America by you know, giving us some some land that has some protections on it that you know, hopefully you know, if I ever have kids and when you rear your young pup there, Um, you can hopefully go out to those places we like. Yeah, this is real close to the way it was when I got to hunt out here, right, And I think that's incredibly important, because man, these wild places are certainly the reason I'm here. Um, you know, the being outside is it is an important thing to me. And I think it has great mental and educational value for everybody, and if they so choose, they should be able to go to experience that. And I think the Antiquities Act is given many people that opportunity that I have had. So I felt, um that it would again be disingenuous if we did not, uh, you know, let our position be known because we had truthfully been taking a position. So, Um, that's much appreciated I think in this world, in this in the hunting communities, especially, that a brand whose primary goal is to make money, you know, would risk hindrance to that goal to make a stand. I think that's the idea that is to be respected. And I think to your point, and I think public lands are this way and a lot of other situations, in my mind, are not this way. Public Lands are so important, they're so fragile that simply the idea of them the is more important than the micro points on the ground. Like the idea, the slippery slope idea, I don't like it in a lot of a lot of other arguments, but I like it in public lands. I like it because it is the idea is so important. It makes that slippery slope real. It does, it does, it's and its It's like, we can't there isn't a way for us to allow somebody to chisel away parts of the idea of what public lands are. And so, like you said, with a stroke of the fact, with a stroke of a pen, the idea it becomes reality. Just to me, that slippery steak argument works for public lands where I'm not. I'm not big on that any other place. And so what somebody says to me, well, here's why, you know, here's why more access for hunters. I'm like, look, I get that, I get the access parts. I'm with you, But the idea of that land being important to us and being protected is way way more uh significant to me than any of the micro arguments you may be able to make on the ground. And really it's I just want to ask people, why in the hell do we want to make everything easy. And there are so many easy things that people get board with because it's so easy, um that they don't do anymore. And the challenge and the fact that things are hard is why it is so good. And you know, right now, right this very instant, there's folks lobbying like crazy to say, Okay, we're gonna just one day, one day out of the entire year, We're gonna make uh, certain wilderness areas open to wheeled vehicles, motorized access, electric bikes, mountain bikes, or just have a chainsaw in there for one day. And the real reason is because it just be easier. And man, there's there's plenty of places to do easy things. And if you want to go do those, go do them. You know, you can drive damn here anywhere on a lot of blm and there's some cool chunks of there's I hunting on a chunk of National forest called the Dixie National Forest. It might as well been I mean, it might as well been a cattle ranch. And the roads is someone that thing was amazing. You could drive anywhere you wanted to, the the Apache National Forest, the HeLa um unbelievable gorgeous places, and you cannot walk my ale without crossing two roads. So yeah, and yeah, people say that the idea that that has to be that way everywhere is just not to me. It's too dangerous. It's too dangerous to think that way. And it's too dangerous to be like, ah this, you know they protected they didn't adjust any other national minds stuff for those two. I'm like, okay, but those two were. Yeah, And it's just a stroke of a pen people, that's all. And that's how we got our wilderness areas that I absolutely cherish and enjoy, and I don't hunt in them constantly. That's not my soul thing. Variety is the spice of life. And that that statement that's been around for quite a while, I would think is absolutely freaking true. It's man, I can go do the coolest things and the way that I want to do them, I just can't do them all in one spot. And and if I could write it all up, I wouldn't do it any different. Like I can go jump on a motorbike and drive on a ton of BLM, a ton of national forest. Um, I can decide that when I'm I want to get away from that, I can go step into a wilderness area. And you know, I was speaking with Cameron Haynes last night and and he was like, you know, when I was first starting out, I didn't didn't know anything, and and so I figured that the best way for me to have success is to find a wilderness area and walk all the way into the middle of it so I wouldn't have people around messing me up. And I could. And that's how I would find success, you know. And and that opportunities out there for everybody who is willing to go do it right now, you know. And what's that opportunity worth to us, both the tangible for him and also the idea that that opportunity is there. What's that worth to us? To me, it's invaluable. Like you can't put a number on that. You can't put a We'll just put a couple of minds over there. I would just need this one month. I live in Texas. I live in Texas. Dramatic pause, Oliver say it again. I live in Texas. Has anybody ever been to Texas? And on a public Graham I would love I hunted, I thought I live in Texas. On my part of b h A, I believe in public lands. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna do all my research in Texas. I'm gonna try to find a good chunk of public ground. I'm gonna go hunt it. I'm gonna kill something, and then I'm gonna prove to everyone that you know, it just takes a little bit of effort. I hunted one day for doubs in an area outside Austin, and I got hit with more babies, and then I hit doubs whoa, and so I decided, funk that I'm out. I'll drive up to Colorado. Like so in in Texas is the best example of what can happen if you let that if you start sliding down that slippery slope and there is large chunks of the state that it's inaccessible to anybody other than the landowner and whoever landed permits to be on that ground. Which I don't have a problem with that idea, but i'd also i'd like to, you know, have some a little very land use and be able to go do things. I talked to a lot of folks in Texas. Uh first part of January, Dallas far a club. Um. You know, I always like to wear my public land owner T shirt around and I saw a shocking amount of public land owner T shirts in Texas. And I talked to so many people that like truly gave me warm and fuzzies. They're like, you know what, we've been in Texas. I've been listening to you guys, and we're going to New Mexico this year. We're going to color out of this Yep. We're driving all the way to Idaho this year. And they are fired up. They don't not a one of them knows what they're really getting into. But I can almost promise you the next time, you know, some nasty public lands bill rears its head, those people have now had boots on the ground and they're gonna be, you know, hopefully making some phone calls to their re elected Right. Yeah. When I when I first I first heard that there was a b h A chapter in Texas, I was like, Hi, laughed a little bit, like oh interesting, Um. Then I figured out that's what those guys are doing. Those guys are it's a group of guys who care about public lands, that care about hunting, who are venturing out somewhere west or north of the state. Do you have a public lands venture in Colorado, Wyoming or New Mexico. And how ridiculous that is. How ridiculous that they live in one of the largest states in their nation. I don't know if it's the largest, close with probably the most hunters per capita, one of the top three most hunters per capita, and they their idea of changing their hunting world is to leave that state and to go to a magical place called the West, where you live where the things that they want to go do are available. How crazy? Yeah, how crazy? And And the reason one of the main reasons why I started to really harden my stance on public lands because I was like, this is it, this is it. We'll just you know, a couple of leases from Bears Ears, no big deal. Uranium costs are down, so probably the probably a lot of companies won't even want to jump in and get leases. I don't care. I don't care about the reality right now. I care about the idea of what that could turn into. Like I just I lived there. I live in Texas, and so that idea to me is has hardened and will stay that way for as long as I'm on this earth. Just from what I've experienced in my time living in Texas. I live in Illinois. I grew up in Maryland, but I also grew up right at the at the foot of about a hundred thousand acres of public land. That I'm much like you. As you're growing up, you don't realize that's what the the cost that we've paid for that, or the uniqueness of that around the world. Um So, a fella took a pot shot at me um on on the social media, really surprising. He said, Oh, you're just mad because you can't afford a lease. And I never responded to him because I don't ever think that's real productive on those social forums. Um And I just dearly wanted to just be like I do. And it's forty million acres and there's a lot of variety on it and guess what, if you want to come on it, you can. Um And it's a damn cool thing. And and and it's so weird because I've definitely gone full circle, you know, growing up in Montana, just like you're you know, you're up brand. It was like, yeah, everon, you know, two point three point whatever, and and it's the act going out with folks that you love and and uh, you know, we spent a lot of time as young guys staring over that barbed wire fence, like man, if we can only get permission here, and ignoring everything that was behind us. And I think about that from time to time. And you know, I have done some just absolute grocery shopping. Um on. My uncle's got a place on the Boulder River in Montana, and and uh, and it is grocery shopping. It's like it is so chock full of white tails and you used to be you can get a handful of dough TEGs and and you know, basically just like go sit at the tractor and don't shoot white tails. And you know, to me, that is groceries, that that just isn't hunting. At this point, well, I think I'm gonna attempt an analogy here. It's gonna probably not be good attempted anyway. And all difference to my wife, who I love. When I when I first met my wife, my wife loves to cook. When I first met her, I told her that my favorite meal, one of my favorite meals was shepherd's pie. It's a lovely dish, meat and vegetables, hardy, hearty dish. Uh, it would be potatoes ruver top soul food. Yeah, I like shepherd's pie. So if she began to make Shepherd's pie for me, and it was delicious, and she made it a lot of you know especial occasions on my birthday, stuff like that, and she knew that I hate peas, like I hate peas so much. Peas are the devil's balls. Peas are terrible. Anybody out there that's listening to this that likes peas, please right in. I'll have you on to talk about peace. But anyway, she knows that I don't like peace, and she I found a recipe book like a month ago, and then that recipe book, it was the recipe for her Shepherd's pie and at the bottom of the page it said, with a little heart, he hates peas, right there at the bottom of her recipe book. And I warmed my soul. I'm like, this woman loves me so much that she has written down my dislike peas and her recipe changing it forever to not include peas. I'm like, I picked the right lady, Like this is this is it. I'm glad we got married. And then I started to realize that since we gotten married, which would be coming up on four years, she had started putting the peas back in to the shepherd's pie. So that we dated for about four years, a pealless existence, I lead. And then we've been married for about the same time. The peace came back at some point. I don't know when they came back. I wasn't paying attention. Maybe she wasn't either. I think it just goes to say, I love you, honey number one. You're amazing cook in person. But it goes to say that we both of us got comfortable with our shepherd's by having peas in it. I fucking hate peas, and I've been eating peas and shepherd's pie for some some years now without really knowing until I've realized when I read it in a recipe like I remember she made last time, last couple of times she made shepherds probably was peas in it. Son of a bitch. So I say that to say, I think we both got comfortable, like when she was trying to, you know, win me, and I was trying to win her. We did things differently to please each other. Then we got married. I go, all right, this is for the rest, this is solid. There's no uh, there's no guessing games here. We're married peace. So she started putting peace back into the shepherd's pie, and I started eating him. I could have never thought of that, would ever done that before. So I think here's the analogy, here's where it gets good. I think hunters sometimes like when you're young and you discover public lands and you're hunting hard and you're earning it. Then you get a little older and you have more money, I have less time. Now you have kids. You get comfortable, and you start thinking, maybe at lease would be nice. I don't have a lot of time. I got kids, they have soccer, they have band practice, I have a job. I used to be this crazy wild public land guy who go out for like seven days at a time, but I only got like two days on the weekend now. So if I got a lease where there was more dear, it would be easier and I could be more comfortable, and I think it's more efficient, more efficient. So I think that idea compared to the idea sometimes that you get into with marriage, where you were, you know, very much in the beginning at it hard. You were you know, learned about each other, and you were it was exciting and then you, you know, you get married and maybe naturally you settle into it and you start eating the peas in the sepher spy, oh pease suck man, peace suck. I have often said, and I truly believe this, and I've done some samples testing that if you took you know a handful of random folks that truly identify as um, you know a number of outdoor recreationist groups like your mountain biker and your cross country skier, and your hunter and your fly fisherman and you're uh, you know bass fishermen. He had a random sample of these people that really identifies bias, these like single type athletes. Um. Event, Actually, everybody's gonna have a number of, if not similar, identical responses to the yeah, but why do you really do that? And and it's it's the same man and and from an industry to come back full circle to this hunting industry thing that people talk about, I think the industry part of this has shot ourselves. Lost children here at the hunt x boll um. Maybe they got shangha had by an outfitter in there on their way, nor learned how to be a packer. Can you ride a horse? Son? Hey, um, so we as this industry, I think we have quite possibly shot ourselves in at least one foot by promoting this, even for myself, somebody who's you know, I am constantly reminded of a mulier that I shot, the only thing I've ever shot on TV, right, and uh, I am constantly reminded of this thing. And I we as an industry have promoted this so often unobtainable end result of this grip and grim of somebody standing there and holding up whatever animal every time they go out. And we've bread in this. You can almost taste it. Fear of failure and what if I don't get something? Well, let me tell you all about that. Because I don't get something the vast, vast, vast majority of the time. That's our value system. Like our value system. I think that may be the biggest issue, and I think it is. I think I think we value the animal. We all value the animal, some of them, some of us fetishize the antlers and have that thing going on. But some level that's okay, Like we can figure that out. That's a smaller issue. I think. I think the larger issue is that we've devalue the experience. It's to such a level that it's gonna be hard to come back from like that. It's gonna be hard to come back from the inches and and that and the social media showing off of your animal. Um, it's gonna be a little bit hard to come back from that. As a group, all these people in this room, like we're sitting in the truck where it's the fun. We're sitting in truck. We're sitting this here truck and like around us are you know, taxidermy, heads of giant animals, bigger creators and I have every right. So there's kids here, man, Like, there's kids here that that's all that they know. And one of the things that pivot from that, one of the things that heartens me that maybe there's a change. And this is a long one, but what do you what's the percentage of hunters that are over fifty five that buy licenses? You know what that is? I mean, it's pretty good, it's pretty big percentage. Sorry, over yeah, over. I think currently over fifty five is our largest demographic. And so there's going to be a gap, right when that generation moves on, There's gonna be some sort of gap in the hunting populace, like there's gonna be a time when there's way less of us. I think that's what's happening now. As the numbers go down, there's a gap, there's going to be this generational gap, and I think we can fill that gap in a way that maybe would change that trophy hunting mentality or just change the devalue ring of the experience. So I got to take a a young lady that worked at this website called The Chive. You ever heard of that? Yeah? Yeah, So they got awesome, Yeah, they got ahold of me, and they said, we want to film this hunt with you in this year old girl named Taylor that works at the Chive and has never shot a gun, never hunted rarely. Um, I don't want to miss characterize sure, but she rarely left city life. UM, pretty typically a city girl. And they said we want to film it, um and documented then have put a video up on the Chive. I was like, that's amazing, No, because she's probably gonna be in a bikini if everybody know the Chive. It's just it's not It didn't seem like a serious affair. But then I went and talked to the producers and the directors, and they were like saying all the right stuff. So I said, let's go do it. Set it up. We went there. Weile the havelin hunt in South Texas. We literally hunted for eight hours. I showed her how to shoot a rifle taughter. She cried two or three times during that experience. Was very excited to learn how shooting go. And we take her out. We find ha Alina. She shoots it about sony five yards and drops it, kills it. And then about a span of eight hours from never have a shot a gun to having killed a living thing, and that microwaved amount of time. So we get this thing. I sure had a gut it. We skin it, we eat it that night, we cook it, we eat it, and on the way back she said something like this was this one of the top five days of my life? And I thought, holy shit, like the experience of understanding. Because I didn't let any We never talked about any types of trophies. We never talked about seeing the animal. Is this thing you could take a picture of. I didn't. I try to look at some of the negative things that I think are in hunting out and I didn't let her have that, Like I took that away, didn't introduce it to her and just kind of said, we're gonna go kill this thing. You need to learn about the natural history of it. You need to learn about where it lives and and kill it, and then you need to eat it and have that experience you and that animals, just you and that animal. She came out saying that that changed her life. To me or you, that would be the most simple hunt you could ever do. A day hunt for Havelina is not something that I particularly would put up there as in my bucket list, but I found that, like there's so many people in the urban bubble now that have this inner yearning for something more that even the simplest form of hunting shows them a different way and it could change their life. Maybe that's hyperfectly, But for this gal, yeah, Kinada did at least changed a little bit of the way that she's all things. And so I think maybe that generation gap if everybody could, you know, remove the trivy hunting and all that stuff and take somebody out for that type of experience, a wilderness experience even, or something that is more about the experience and the learning than it is about the result. We could backfill that generation gap with a bunch of people who will then be teaching their kids a whole different way to do it that I find way more enriching than a lot of this. Well, and so to back you up on this, I just read UH mentioned demographics and and and part of uh part of this study is lifelong hunters are not now looking at it now, lifelong hunters are not being made in the youngest hunting category. So the kids that we're bringing up into hunting, that group is not retaining those hunters. They're eventually finding something else to do. They get out in the real world there eighteen, they're like, oh, ships, chicks, chicks or dudes, I guess whatever. But the group that is coming into hunting that is much smaller later in life, are sticking with it to the end of I mean, for as long as they can. Well, I've seen I think there was a study in eleven that said it was like returning military was a big part of that. A big part of that was female, A big part of that was urban and suburban people that just wanted to have the experience that Taylor had with me. So I think those groups of people are, because that's the way to teach enough people that and be like, eventually you could get to the trophy hunting thing. It's not all wrong, but there's parts of it that wrong. Just don't start there, yeah, do not start there. Get there eventually. My buddy's kid and I told him we had a couple of cocktails after this hunt, and I told him flat out, I was like, hey, mann, I want I want to take your child from you for future hunting seasons as my official protege prodigy um and rear him. We will attach a mustache to him until such time as he can grow on and and and teach him out to hunt my way because he this kid has got it and his dad is trying to provide him all the opportunities he did not have. And you know, I have come to this conclusion that he has made hunting so easy for his kids. I will be shocked if any of them make it to that lifelong hunter line, because they've found all these goals that you know, I definitely had as a kid, but I still have not achieved. And and and it's and it's pretty much on a plate for him, Like there's some work in there, but also the attitude. You know. I had this buddy of mine out, Um, Kelsey Clevenberg, you may know him as Seattle's batman. He uh, he's It seems like a whole different chase. This dude down that broke off Ken Griffey Jr. Is bat off the statue in front of a Safeco feeling made a lot of local papers. No, the man was passed out in the alley and and he just picked up the bat out of the trash can. I think that would have made up a story anyway. This man, grown grown man. I grew up in Montana, uh in a hunting family. And Um, he shot a forking horn mule deer uh in the company of my buddy, uh Josh, who's fourteen. And Josh could not figure out why this grown man had shot a two point mule here. And furthermore, I could not figure out why he was this grown man was almost crying, almost doing back flips on the mountain over the fact that he had just shot a foking horn mule here. And Um, Josh and I are dragging this forky down uh to where we can bring it out on on his side by side and um and Josh turns me. He's like, yeah I did. I didn't. I didn't think he'd shoot that kind of in hushed tones, and I said, well, yeah, look at him, Josh. I'm like, he's overjoyed and that's all that matters, right, And we're dragging this buck through this old growth sage brush which is kind of a pain, um, and we're dragging along. Then eventually Josh was like, yeah, yeah, that that is what matters, and that right there was MHM. Had a lot of great moments last hunting season, but that right there, I feel is the only moment during hunting season that I did something or participated in something that did something for the greater good of hunting. That one little moment, that's yeah, man. I feel that though too. I mean I think there's these little driving back from that hunt with Um Taylor from the Chive. I have. The video is good, hoping at overstate the experience, but um, driving back from that, I just thought this should be a job, Like, not the idea of taking people hunting. That's already a job. You've done it, yes, but the idea of, like, see, taking someone out of their comfort zone and intentionally giving them something they couldn't get in their current environment, because so many things about hunting that you can't get in that environment. So we were talking at at the dinner the other night. I just think the fact that more people are moving into urban environments is in a lot of ways good for hunting because all of those people, not all of them, a lot of them have that urge build into them to go do something wild. They've seen it on TV, they've you know, kind of build it up. And the more people that are in those urban environments, I think the more people we can convince like, try this out, here's a way, come do this, and it will change you if you do it right. If you do it wrong, it's just kind of a thing that you do. But it's you know, going out into the natural world and taking something you didn't put there yourself. A pretty serious deal. So it ought to be life. It ought to be you ought to cry and jump around, and and it's not making an impact on you. I wager you're going about it in the wrong way. Yeah, I wager I waged that exact thing. I would. There's too many people here that are there's just too many of them that how is your year? And they're like, well, I got me a mule, dear, I got me an elk, got me shout fourteen doves and antelope? What else I showed? Like, no, nont know? How was your year? Tell me how it was? Do you have fun? Do you have a bad year? Good year? Would you learn my particular year? I hunted a lot in a lot of different places, and I feel like I got about thirty five or forty years of knowledge and perspective this year, seen this prior year, and that's what I'm thankingful for. We could go through the list of things that I killed in each experience and what I what they meant all, but in its collective nature, it made me a better person, maybe a better hunter, and may be better able to tackle the things that I think we all need to. And so if somebody said, how your year? But like, it's freaking awesome because I got to travel around and see a lot of different things, gained some perspective and maybe in part that perspective on to other people. Maybe absolutely. Man, Oh it wasn't. If I said, hey, how's your year, You're like, I gotta two elk that time. My year was huh, I'm a good hunter. Let's see what I got. I think that's I think that's built into our community, and I think maybe we should start to uh try to change that a little bit. Yeah, man, And and and it's it's gonna be hard to wrap that up in a nice little hashtag or in that dreat that's gonna get a bunch of social engagement. Yeah, But on a on a personal level, it can be done. It is, it is so attainable. And man, it you gotta know. Yet you just gotta be willing. I mean, that's that's all there is to it. Man, you gotta you gotta be willing to just go. And uh, you know, I'm on a pretty serious uh run on the old Elkasaurus front, you know. And and I look at them as as groceries as well, and I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders when I get one in the freezer. And I've been pretty darn and consistent. Um but and the question is always how. And I try a new spot every single day. And and even though I want one, the end all be all is not is not getting that sucker down. It's not getting that picture. Uh, it's it's it's something. It's just it's something much much different. I get get my days in the field and be uh, be quiet and not not talking him and uh. And I do not leave the truck door with this. I don't. I don't leave the track going. This is going to be a failure if I do not get one. Yeah, I have I can confidently say I have zero fear of failure when I think like you're You're just a great example to me is someone who it's just a generally good person who wants to go out and do a good thing, um and wants to think hard about that thing and then you know, make sure your energies are going in the right direction, boast a better yourself, but then also to have some ideas around that betterment that can be put out into the world. And I would say, like a lot of first this will be our second podcast, but the first one and this one we're both. Maybe they seem like there's a lot of negative talk about hunters and hunting in the community because we're talking about things maybe we want to change and things we don't see. I think there's a ton of good people that are just doing something because that's how they were taught, or doing something because they're a part of groupthink or they're part of the collective group and that's what they see, so they emulate that. And um, I think that doesn't make them bad in any way. It doesn't make them really as harmful as as in my mind it may seem. I think those people are are essential. But all those people need to do they start to think about things a little different, have a conversation, learn and grow and the way that you have and I have, and maybe sit down, Um, and well, next time they're out on the hunt, they buy hunt from outfitter, and it feels weird when they shot the animal. Think why did that feel weird? Why why did that not feel good? Because there's been some times where I shot at the animal and you're sitting there by it or you walk up to it and didn't feel good. It didn't feel right. And so maybe at the end of the day when that happens to you and then sit back and think, why didn't that feel right? Why didn't I have? You know, your your buddy that shot a forky and jumped around and was emotional and cried. That's right, Like that's the feeling we should all have all the time. When we we achieved that thing. So I would just hope that people can can sit down next time that happens to him and be like, what led to this? What led to this? Not is less than fulfilling feeling, because I've had it. I had it dozens of times in my hunting life, and each time I'm like, Oh, maybe I'm gonna figure out how I got to this. Maybe it's the way the outfitter treated it. Maybe it's that we just got out of the truck and sat down and shot this thing. Maybe you know, maybe it's we shot a bunch of ducks and I was in a camp and half of the guys never intended to take the ducks home. Like maybe being with that group of people just didn't make it good, like for me. So I don't know. I think about that a lot, and I I hope that you know, in these conversations, people don't think we're bagging on a bunch of people. Were not. We're just trying to openly have the discussion that is necessary my view. Yeah, and I don't feel like we're having a negative conversation, And then I hope that's not what's being broadcast. I think I think it is an important message to all of us pig tough, macho dudes in the hunting world that it's important to think about this stuff because there is a lot to think about and h you know, and as this world becomes more and more populated, um, you know, these big wild chunks of ground are going to be more and more sacred, and these critters are going to be more and more sacred. Um. And we have an absolute responsibility to do a better job myself included of sharing that passion with people who don't get it, because it is like, like we talked about in the beginning, I kill the things I love. And I don't say that lightly at all, because it is a bizarre thing when you really think about it. And if it's a bizarre thing to me, who has been doing it, you know, essentially my whole life. And when I wasn't doing it, I was wanting to want to participate. Um. If it's a weird thing to me, it's a different planet, alien type of observation to a just a non hunter. You think about where you are now, if you would have gone and talked to young mustache lest Ryan Callahan up there in Montana when you're growing up and be like, hey, you know later on in your life, this is what's gonna happen. Like people are going to recognize you as a person that cares about conservation, as a leader in this thing, and like you'll have an impact on people based on your hunting. And you're thinking about hunting, like, ah, yeah, out of here, get out of here. You're crazy, You're crazy. I mean, yeah, I don't. I think the same thing when people say to me, like, hey, I really appreciate you know what you do? Holy sh it, Yeah, party brands screaming why the hell does my opinion matter what? And then I think the people like other people I respect, like Ranella and rogue In and people that have astronomically larger impacts on the way people think and feel and are educated. I think like, wow, that's a heavy burden, but a good one. Um, that's a it's a heavy hammer to swing, but swinging anyway, you know, swinging hard and hopefully hit your mark. But that's um, So I think we should finish up. You probably have to get back to your booth. You think there's some people over there, Yes, there's been some some sex. Please bring caffeine, please help us, pizza and booze. I think maybe we should close out because I think would you look into your side view mirror please again, We're in a truck. Can you see that? Yeah, this is something that I keep staring at that there is at least a six point bull elk looking directly into the side of the driver's side mirror as we sit. I'm gonna try to capture a picture. This is over, I think. Um, one of the things that I think is I think a lot of things, but one of them is um. Storytelling and descript in is as old as humanity and very important. So I would ask you, Ryan Callahan, I will be quiet. I want to ask you to take a couple of moments and just describe and detail some of the things that you're looking at currently and help people to because we're not gonna film any Hunting Collected podcasts, and we're gonna make sure we always do them in weird situations like one a glass and tit or in a truck in a trade show. So I'd like you to close it out by just picking points of this scene and explaining it to the listener. Imagine a a giant hall, a convention hall. Um, you know, forty ft tall ceilings. Imagine a Toyota pickup truck UM dropped in the middle of I would I mean thousands of people in this room. For sure. We're currently surrounded by hundreds, some of which have taken notice and and are looking in the windows of the truck at Benn and myself in front of us. Directly in front of us, there is a shooting range with re curve bows and bird arrows, and people are lining up to shoot aerial targets foam targets that are being thrown in the air UM large shoulder mount critters typically elk. I see an access here a mule dere to left, which is a giant foam yetie for some reason, the abombing a lost snowman literally clutching in American flag. God bless America. UM. And yeah, I mean it. It's we are. We're in our own little cocoon here in this in this truck, and it's fascinating. It's almost like being in a submarine, like driving through the you know, in the ocean. And there was just a young man wearing a floppy hat. He had long flowing hair, kind of like a fabio looking hair, and he was just pounding these foam targets with a bow. And behind him while he was doing that was this yettie. It's white body yettie. It's probably about eight or nine ft tall. Say that tall, It's very tall. And then behind them at this very moment is the gritty bowman recording a podcast and much the same way we are. I don't see who he's talking to, but it looks very interesting conversation. So you maybe at some point listen to this and then listen to that podcast and know that it was at the same time. It's like the snow globe that looks out on another snow. So we are happily. I'm happy that we are in this fairly unique set cuation. Yes, both in our careers and our lives and in our current locale. Yes, sir. Where where do you go from here? Man? I'm gonna hidjack your clothing? Thought well, home home? Where does this podcast go from it? Oh? Where do I? I thought you were like, why I'm going home? This podcast goes to my home. I'm an interview of my wife child. You know, hey, and my name is Benn. Do you remember me? Um? I want to I have a like maybe a realistic view of where it will go, and then I want to but I might as well just described the plant too, because I guess that's all that matters. From being in the world of marketing and sponsorships and as you are being involved in that dance, I see, I don't. I don't want to do that, um, so I and being also a journalist in my head, um, hopefully in my mind. UM, I hope this can just be pure honest content. That's all that's my hope for it. I hope. I'm pretty certain that I won't let any other influences touch it. Um. If someone would like to jump on and and uh put words around it so get people's attention, that's great, that's fine. But I'm after experiencing a lot of content that isn't real and has other agendas. I would like there to be this outlet where there isn't that advertorial versus editorial editorial and and in very many ways, not only my own thoughts about that are important, but like a guy like Joe Rogan who has that idea already going when the people that he's inspired, he's I've known him for a while and he's inspired me. So I hope it just goes a natural course. I hope it benefits hunting. That's what it's here for. UM. It's not here to benefit skiers or surfers, but I hope they listen and understand a little bit of what's in our heads. There's a young boy waving at Calais right now. But I hope it just can be an honest and open conversation and a Catharsis for me personally to discuss some of the ideas that confuse me with very smart people and hope they can add to my own personal knowledge base for hunting in my own perspective, which I think I've already seen that it does. UM And you know, I hopefully can be an outlet for passion and the knowledge and all that type of stuff. Learning and growth are good things. I definitely content matters to me because I think storytelling can impact people. I'm sure it's impacted you. It surely has impacted me. So I don't think I would ever want to UM have something that isn't purely about that. So this is I think that's why we're in this truck here in this I like it. I'm excited. Does it make sense? It all makes sense that I just babbling along to follow your journey. And I think, yeah, in the in the hunting world, um again, we've you know, we've we've really focused on on the end, the the optimal end result for a long time. And and uh, I'll be the first to tell you that I will never consider myself an expert because I think ultimately the reason I love hunting is there are so many variables, so there are so many things that can happen, um that you know, I'm never gonna have it perfect. I'm never going to be what I considered the best right and and that's why I love it. Um so um yeah, I mean maybe a little bit like me, a little bit you, Yeah, I think a little bit more varied in your talents than I am. Um. Like a lot of people might pick up archery and get really into the minutia of archery. I think maybe I picked up hunting and get into the menu, show the philosophy of it. Just as much as somebody might be a gearhead about a bow. I think I'm just kind of a get your head about the idea, like what it is. I don't know, maybe I think that's hopefully what we'll we'll come across that. It's more to me exciting to discuss ideas and to discuss not travel or or uh specifically ill to do something. I don't know. I think that's part of part of also what I'd like to to just continue to do is just exchange ideas and have good conversation. Push it that way. Yeah, I like it. I like it too. So you're point of you know, going back to young Ryan calla here. I mean, yeah, I'm just I'm staring out the window of this truck on a trade show floor and people are masked in here to see uh mounts and stuff and just do something out of their routine. I think. And and if you were to go back seventeen thousand years and grab some short, hairy hunter with a sharp stick and be able to communicate to them what you are doing right now, this is where it's going to be. Yeah, yep, here we are. We've arrived at this, at this juncture. I will close out by saying that if this podcast, and I appreciate you kind of interviewing me to figure out what this is, because I don't I'm not probably good at just declaring whatever the hunting collective will be. But I will say this, if it ever becomes about me, let me know. Let me know. If it ever becomes about like who I am and what I do all the time, let me know, because I prefer it would be about guys like yourself, guys like Ranella, people like that, um, and then just a show about my shit. So if it ever anybody listening, if you ever feel like there's it's starting to become more about me than about other people, let me know. I would love to know that. I would love for you to tell me to stop doing it, because that is not my intention. So I like it. Man, No, I think yeah, you can bend a few years. It will be a fun, fun journey. Looking looking forward to listening and thank you very much, thanks for coming on see you well. Damn, that was an awesome conversation. Thanks of course to run Callahan for joining me, for everybody at first Light for doing what you do, make a badass gyar and support public lands. It was also a great time in Sault Like City this last weekend into Western Honey Conservation next bo at as of great conversations with smart people care about hunting. I can't wait till I hope to see you there. That's it. That's all there is episode number two. We will definitely get better for episode number three that will becoming next week at you But until then, visit the Hunting Collective dot com for articles, videos, and all kinds of good information. See you,

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