00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. 00:00:15 Speaker 2: Listening to podcast, you can't predict anything. 00:00:20 Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light dot com. F I R S T L I T E dot com. All right, Phil, you ready, we're rolling? We started. 00:00:44 Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that. 00:00:47 Speaker 1: We're just having a little chit chat. Prior in the subject, did you bring it up? Seth? Yeah, Seth brought up how we have the shirt that that that fisher was wearing on the on when he found the weights in the walleye. And then I was need to point out to our guests here, who are fishermen that we actually hold in our possession the knife that was used to disembowel the walle eyes. It's a it's a piece of history to find the weights. And he and then it was an interesting little detail is he was a little bit embarrassed about his knife work in the video. He's he's cutting open the walllle Eyes, and he was a polo. He was embarrassed about that it looked like his knife work was inexpert knife work. And he pointed out that his leather man, the leather man someone handed him, had a broken tip, and that's why he wasn't able to more expertly extricate the lesson. 00:01:40 Speaker 4: When I was watching that video, the last thing I was worrying about was his knife work, I thought. 00:01:49 Speaker 1: So this morning I was reading at Harvard University. They've been in the news a bunch for getting their balls busted about anti semitism on campus. But uh uh, they bought a different news story about Harvard. They bought a man a copy of the Magna Carta. Did you see this for twenty seven dollars and fifty cents long, long, long ago, And these scholars just realized it's the original copy. Oh God, someday they're gonna be arguing about this knife. And I wonder if there's maybe hopefully like Walleye DNA, you. 00:02:28 Speaker 5: Mean, arguing about the provenance. 00:02:30 Speaker 1: They'll be like Dad, can't be the actual night despite. 00:02:33 Speaker 4: The label on this side, is that there's like a little russ is that rusters like some dried drugs, dry blood. 00:02:41 Speaker 1: I just hol't. No one washed it. So when there is like a big thing and like a big scandal and like it sells on sotherbs for millions of dollars and shit, you know. 00:02:50 Speaker 5: It's like owning the gun that shot Lincoln or something like that. 00:02:54 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, well I traded that for this. Yeah. Yeah, it's the actual knife. It's impressive here in our private collection that might be our only No, I don't think we have a lot of artifacts like the culturally significant artifacts like that. 00:03:14 Speaker 3: Start collecting more. 00:03:16 Speaker 6: Uh. 00:03:16 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by two enthusiastic anglers who happened to be not friends with each other. I hope you come out of this friends. We built a good friends with Chester who's not here, Jeremy Smith and Danny Thompson. And what we're here to talk about was we're here to have a friendly discussion, a friendly discussion about what's the slang term for it, live scope. 00:03:41 Speaker 4: Forward facing sevenar Yeah, well no, live scope, live scope, live scope. 00:03:45 Speaker 1: There day I was sitting at I was stuck at a boat launch for hours because the wheel fell off. My trailer made a lot of friends, especially when it was it fell off the trailer blocking the boat launch, you know, Ashole, Yeah, it was funny. There's two kinds of people in this world. There's people that will do anything to try to back a trailer around you in a moment of distress, and there's people who will come up to help. 00:04:07 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:04:08 Speaker 1: Right, you know, there's a funny joke. There's two kinds of people in this world. There's people that think you can bucket everybody into two brackets. It's a joke. Anyway, while I'm sitting there in my moment of no my moment of distress is over because thanks to the help of a fellow angler, we got the boat out of the way, and then we were just people sitting there with nothing to do, waiting for a flatbed trailer. And a guy bragged to another guy. He bragged to another guy, He's like, just got forward facing sonar boom. So I thought, man, you should come into the studios. We're gonna be talking about this in a couple of days. We're gonna be we're gonna have a friendly discussion about the future of forward facing sonar. Is it the end of fishing or just the beginning? And we have a sonar enthusiast Danny Thompson works for garment, but is not here representing garment. Can I even say that you worked there, you got a garment T shirt. 00:05:08 Speaker 6: I mean people are gonna. 00:05:11 Speaker 1: Works for garment, but it's not here as a rep of garment. But he's a sonar enthusiast. And we're also joined by Jeremy Smith, who is from Lindner Media Productions and angling Edge dot com. Who is is it fair to say suspicious of nervous about? 00:05:34 Speaker 2: I think there's reasons for concern, with reasons with the technology in certain cases. 00:05:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't want to lead. We're gonna we're gonna do the news first. I don't want to lead the thing. But we've been here before. Uh, for hunters out there that don't care about fishing, we've been here before with drone technology, smart rifles, you know, yeah, remote control hunting with remote control rifle. Yeah, like this comes up, this comes up. Sure, How do we fit new How do we fit emerging technologies into our regulatory structures? 00:06:08 Speaker 5: Wireless cell cameras, yeah. 00:06:10 Speaker 1: Wireless cell cameras, two way communications, Like, throughout the history of wildlife management, we've done two things. We've gone back and reconsidered old technologies like dynamite. Right right, they're like, you know what, I know, y'all benfishing with dynamite, but we're gonna stop. So we've done that, and then we've engaged around emerging technologies and I have a couple of thoughts about how that goes. And uh, we're gonna hear. We're gonna hear from the fellas here about their thoughts. But can I throw out one till later? Just tilate everybody to keep them hanging around. The minute, there was like a whisper of using drones for hunting. They went after drones before there was a user group. Smart and I started to think to myself, like you have to if you are if you look at an emerging technology, you cannot wait for a user group, and you cannot wait for an industry to build around it. Once you wait for an industry to build around it and an enthusiastic user group. Right, you missed your chance. You missed your chance. Like had someone a long time ago said, you know what, these gas powered boat motors are going to kill fishing. Now you got dudes everywhere, Yeah, you could fish five miles from your house. 00:07:31 Speaker 3: You're not shutting that down now. 00:07:33 Speaker 1: You would have been like people. You could have gotten some old timers be like, yeah, what's wrong with rowan and you would have gotten you could have banned boat motors for fishing. But you missed your chance. It's too late now if you bring it up. I remember my dad in the lake I grew up on, trying to get a no wake zone in the evening and jeesuz about burned our house down. But first the news. I got two news pieces that aren't really what one's the newspece see our day. You know that there's a dude that one of the guys that works at the med Eater store on Main Street, the odd calls my kid to ask me they're headed to the emergency room because he had stepped out a lionfish man, which is painful. And I got zapped by a lionfish and I thought I was gonna die because I didn't know about it. It's like I remember getting bit by a bullet ant and I knew it was bad, but I didn't know what happened. And when I got hit by a lionfish in the hand real hard, like someone swung it on the end of a pole spear into my hand. I was with Rannie Bain. I remember Rannie Bain yelled at me put it in cold water, like and like you look online, don't put it in cold water. What you do? And I haven't talked to these guys since, but it was extremely painful but very short lived. Like your hand, like my hand, his foot, whatever, just blows up and it's excruciating pain. Like I was just laying in the bottom of the boat writhing in pain. Two hours later, I couldn't even remember where the hell it happened. You get hot water is hot, like get it so it's too hot to put your hand in. And then the minute you can put your wound in that hot water, somehow it dissolves that toxin and alleviates it. So yeah, they had been wading through the mangroves and one of them stepped on it. But I haven't heard any news from them since then. Another personal news bit is this morning, I was trying to remember if the invasive dove is called a ring neck dove or a collar dove. It's a collar dove. But everywhere now, oh yeah, in this state recording Southwest Montana today for the first I'd always see him around town. I saw the first three in my yard today. 00:09:57 Speaker 5: Oh really, first and first three? Seen where? 00:10:01 Speaker 1: The first three I ever see? I've seen them from. Actually I need to go into my bird list and put them down. We keep a bird list for the yard. Uh, the first three I've ever seen, like touch foot in my yard. 00:10:12 Speaker 5: Yeah, We've got tons of them. 00:10:14 Speaker 1: So I'm debating, like my kid will get them now and then elsewhere. I'm debating is it ethical or not ethical to start a little feed station. 00:10:25 Speaker 5: I go for it because on. 00:10:26 Speaker 1: One hand you're supporting them, but on the other hand, you're whiting. You're trying to whittle it down. It's an ethical conundrum with probably legal with probably legal components. But you're allowed to feed birds and they're not a game bird. 00:10:41 Speaker 5: And they're in invasive, so I don't know about it. 00:10:43 Speaker 1: I don't know. 00:10:44 Speaker 5: They're bigger than mourning doves. 00:10:45 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I can tell them just if you get like because I mean, mourning doves are a little bit you know, it's like the mona Zuma's dove. It's like a real small little shit in the mourning dove. And you got like a mourning dove and you kind of get used to that size. It's just a plumper. It's a plumper bird. The other day we were at the other night, we were at my neighbors. We're shooting bows at my neighbors because he's got a great shooting setup. And I look out in his front yard and there's a collar dove getting a drink of water out of a mud puddle. And I told my kid try to get him. And then we questioned it. My neighbor's wife pointed out that that might not be the most popular move with a neighbor, so we did not do it. And then I told him I was like, confirm the collar or else she might be in big trouble with the law. Yep, she don't want to be a mourning dove. A dude wrote in we had had a big discussion about Doug Durren's emphasis on always backing in and how he credits backing in with saving his father's life, which I think is a is an overstatement. I think I think Vince Derham would have survived getting attacked by his own chainsaw whether he had backed in or not. But there's a term for it that I didn't know. In the mining industry. What's what's the OENNG industry? He says. In the mining industry. Oh okay, this guy says, in the mining and oil and gas industries, it is called the move. It's called first move forward, like backing in. You can call it backing in and everybody's like, yeah, I know what that means. Or you can call it first move forward and people will be that they don't know what that means. 00:12:41 Speaker 5: That's like the tactical name for it. 00:12:43 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like your wallet used to be your wallet, now it's your E d C. Your pocket knife was always a pocket knife, it's your EDC. Guy wrote it a big thing about Red Don, which I don't know. Why did we talk about Red Don. It's a great movie. 00:13:02 Speaker 4: You've brought it up a lot and whatnot. 00:13:06 Speaker 1: Well, I brought it up because I am now like I now have my boy being My boy is at the age where, you know, fourteen fifteen years old, he's at the age where I can now go show him all the movies I liked when I was fourteen fifteen years old. So we recently watched Red Dawn, and the guy wrote in and I'm not totally sure why I like it enough to talk about it, but I don't know what he's getting at. He says. Red Dawn nineteen eighty four is a masterpiece of modern cinema. Makes you think about all kinds of cool stuff like government authority, history as written by the victors, and of course dirty comies. But I'm puzzled by history as written by the victors because in the end of Red Dawn they go to the the monument, and you gather from the monument that we beat the Commies. We beat back the Commies. As a boy eating pop tarts and watching TNT, the film made me think about words quite a bit, like definitions of vigilante, freedom, fired, fighter, terrorist, and the like. Also, how all my boy Scout ranks and commendations would crush in a post invasion America. That's another good thing he brings up because in Red Dawn, the guy that has an Eagle Scout is being targeted by the Rooskies. Remember they think it's a paramilitary organization. He says, superheroes are kind of vigilantes. America is at war with. 00:14:50 Speaker 2: The tear Really, I wish I'd better understood where. 00:14:53 Speaker 1: He's going with this. What it boils down doing the end he's. 00:14:57 Speaker 5: Trying to ask, what are what are those kids in Red Dawn? 00:15:00 Speaker 1: No, that's what, that's what. Yeah, it's I love it. Yeah, Alex love everything about it. Love your letter. I think he's saying like that from it depends on whose perspective, right, because here you have they're violating, they're they're poaching deer to eat. But they're the heroes. So are they poachers? 00:15:23 Speaker 5: Well, I mean are they poaching? Like, are you still a poacher? If you're being occupied by some. 00:15:29 Speaker 1: It would have been good if they had showed him tagged that bar. He like validates his tag, take it to the registration. 00:15:39 Speaker 5: I think they get a pass. 00:15:40 Speaker 1: They're really nervous about going back into town. But I need to register. Got twenty four hours. 00:15:45 Speaker 5: Yeah, like you go up to the rush in general with your tag. 00:15:48 Speaker 1: It's legal. It's a great question. And then he gets into of course, uh the Mary the robin Hood's people. Okay, you know Robin Hood's people are poachers because they steal the king's game and and and share it with the poor folk. Uh. This would have been better directed to Clay, who does a lot of his bear grease is about uh, violators, poachers, But in Clay's formula. He won't do a poacher unless the poacher is dead. He won't profile a poet. He'll profile famous dead poachers. Or he'll profile poachers who reformed, reformed, who saw the light. 00:16:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not talking to active poachers. 00:16:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't. I think that's it. That's it for the news, right. Oh No, there are a couple. 00:16:49 Speaker 7: Of things in there, but they're not all amazing and Choose. 00:16:55 Speaker 1: Well, we got that, and then we got a guy writing in that just is an interesting thing for people to follow. He puts thing in quotes. There's the thing in quotes happening in my little hometown of Elkins, West Virginia that I find incredibly entertaining. He says he has no affiliation with anyone related to this, and he's been moved out of there for fifteen years, but he still likes to follow the local hunting and fishen scene on Facebook. He says, there's a young man named Trent Mullanu Mullanax maybe Mullenu probably who's been catching an absurd number of absolutely gigantic rainbow trout and he's been putting his photos up at Middle Mountain Sporting Goods, the local hunting bait shop, and he keeps hammering giant trout, and everyone in the town is in an absolute uproar, accusing Trent of all kinds of nasties, like unable to explain this streak of success, saying he's following the stock truck. Other guys are defending his honor and saying these are huge fish no matter how he caught him. People have begun writing poems to explain his like it's inspired poetry trying to explain his incredible streak. He says, it's worth least to mention, and then he gives the Facebook page or search Middle Mountain Sporting Goods on Facebook and you'll find their page and you can follow his trout fishing exploits, you can follow the arguments of his critics and defenders. That seems well worthwhile. 00:18:48 Speaker 3: Must not be a lot going on in town, but. 00:18:53 Speaker 1: It reminds it a little bit reminds me of another famous another uh reminds me a little bit of the round Paula Buck in Mitch Ron Paula's legacy of giant Bucks, in that it like, here's this guy, like well giant buck and then buck after buck after buck, right, and people are like, why I don't get bucks like that? How could he be getting these bucks? There must be something going on. He posts another bock, you know what I mean. 00:19:23 Speaker 8: Yeah, there's a level of success where you just go, uh really, you know, Yeah, that's exactly what I thought when you were talking about that. I'm like, in the hunting industry, every once in a while, somebody will all of a sudden be just you know, one eighties two hundred's in a situation just on fire, yeah, where you're like really like four of them in a season kind of thing. And sometimes when that happens, eventually you find out that it's just there's some shenanigans going on. 00:19:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that Trent here. 00:19:52 Speaker 8: Is right now, no accusations. There's just a level of success. 00:19:56 Speaker 4: This reminds me of my high school days because we used to go help stock the rivers around my area and then we kind of knew what holds the fish. 00:20:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was not but this would be brood stock. 00:20:09 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right. 00:20:11 Speaker 1: He's fishing stockers, he's fishing eight inches. He's fishing eight inch rainbow. 00:20:15 Speaker 5: They always dump in double worn out. 00:20:20 Speaker 8: Ones, dirty dog, Trent, but who cares dirty identifiable though. 00:20:27 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean they got warm by midsummer anyway. 00:20:32 Speaker 1: They don't live the broodstock when you don't mean if they because they're not naturally reproduced. 00:20:36 Speaker 4: So they can find a spot where there's some cold water. But at least around Pennsylvania. In some areas, some some streams, it just gets too warm. 00:20:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's have a quick poetry contest. If people go, and if people don't mind, like go type in what are you supposed to type. 00:20:56 Speaker 7: In Middle Mountains sporting goods. 00:21:02 Speaker 1: Yep, so middle Mountain sporting goods. If you want to write a. 00:21:05 Speaker 7: Poem, this is in Elkins, West Virginia. 00:21:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, write a poem about Trent. Send it in. We'll judge the best poem. We'll send him a present. And then and then if Trent, if you want to call in, I'd love to have you call in and talk about your experience. Is that all fair? All right, let's go around the room and introduce everybody. 00:21:26 Speaker 9: Danny Well, Danny Thompson obviously you know, work for a Garma Marine from andover Minnesota and fishing enthusiasts, been in the industry now for like ten years, I guess in the fishing business. 00:21:37 Speaker 1: So do they know what you're here? 00:21:39 Speaker 5: Yeah? 00:21:39 Speaker 1: Okay, you told them, Oh yeah. Did they express any kind of reticence that you would come on and express opinions? 00:21:46 Speaker 2: No? 00:21:46 Speaker 1: No, okay, supportive? Yeah, good deal. Sweet Well. 00:21:50 Speaker 2: I'm Jeremy Smith. I work for Lender Media Productions. We make fishing content, so we specialize in making sport fishing content in the Upper Midwest and Canada and avidat so I also would be representing a technology company in many regards with Johnson Outdoors there a customer of ours. 00:22:07 Speaker 3: So yeah. 00:22:08 Speaker 2: So Danny and I both have that connection to technology. 00:22:10 Speaker 1: And Linda is the Lindy Rig. 00:22:12 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like Ellander yep. 00:22:14 Speaker 1: Can you explain that the owners of it, because I think people will know maybe people would well when I say people like me, for instance, I grew up knowing the Lindy Rig, sure, and then only later it was like oh oh Linder. 00:22:28 Speaker 2: Linder yeah ye. So yeah. The Linner family founded they made the Lindy Rig famously and then in Fishermen magazine, which turned into in Fisherman Television, and then in the late nineties they sold that company and then started another company called Linder Media, and so they've had that business for about twenty two years. I've been there for almost twenty of it. 00:22:47 Speaker 1: So it's fun. Yeah, Yeah, it's good. 00:22:49 Speaker 2: I get to fish all over, so it's like fishing. It's a good job. 00:22:53 Speaker 1: Seth. 00:22:53 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:22:54 Speaker 1: If now I gotta say this here, Seth is a I wouldn't even I've fished this this emerging technology with Seth. Mhm, Seth, would you regard yourself as an enthusiast or suspicious? 00:23:12 Speaker 4: I like using it, but I think there's because it works. I have I have mixed opinions. Yeah, I think there's there's at times you gotta be real careful certain things, and then other times it's real fun. 00:23:28 Speaker 1: Yeah. The first thing, if you're listening at home, the first thing we're gonna do after these intros is someone is gonna explain what we're talking about. Yeah, someone's gonna explain like like a sort of an impartial explanation of what is live scope. And I have gone with Seth live scoping walleyes and you're able to sharpshoot specific individual fish Yep, you're able to be like, no, he's like ten feet to the right, no. 00:23:57 Speaker 3: Little little cast a little further. 00:23:59 Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah, he's face and left Yep, yeah, grin. 00:24:09 Speaker 7: I've used it once. Ice fishing I did. It was it was cool to be able to look in the hole as one window and then look on the screen as another window for you know, information as to what was going on. 00:24:27 Speaker 1: Did you catch fishy? Otherwise wouldn't have caught uh? 00:24:31 Speaker 7: I don't think so, because you know, like in a small hole in the ice, there's I mean, we weren't spearing for anything. It was just our line was down there. So not really. 00:24:43 Speaker 1: I'll tell you technology that lets you catch fishy otherwise wouldn't have caught ice fishing is underwater camera. When they go to mouth, it like sometimes their mouth something that you would have never even registered to hit, and like one you're like, nowh. 00:25:00 Speaker 5: Ford facing sonar isn't that far off from an underwater camp really. 00:25:04 Speaker 1: Right, I'll tell you real quick. 00:25:09 Speaker 4: I'll tell you fishing canyon Ferry through the ice for perch that some days I wish I didn't have ford facing sonar because you see those fish come right up to your. 00:25:19 Speaker 3: Bait and then just swim away, and you're. 00:25:20 Speaker 4: Like, I would rather not just assume that there's nothing going on down there. 00:25:26 Speaker 1: You'd get home a lot of earlier. What You're like, dude, they're down there, yeah. 00:25:33 Speaker 8: Tony, Tony Peterson. I have actually have a weird connection to both of these fellows. Danny and I live in the same town. So every once in a while, be at like a dance class with my daughters, there's something to look over, and he'll be standing there because his daughter's in the same class, which is weird. And then I used to work in the in Fisherman office. Oh so I started out as a fishing writer. My first gig, like real full time gig was as an editor for Peterson's Bow Hunting magazine, and we were in the in Fisherman office. 00:26:00 Speaker 1: So cool. Which which one of them is smarter? Well, we'll find out find out. 00:26:10 Speaker 8: But I'm this is a topic that I'm like crazy interested in. 00:26:14 Speaker 1: Are you using the technology? 00:26:17 Speaker 8: I don't have it on my boat, but I've used my tournament partner has it, I've used it. I'm I don't. I literally am kind of agnostic on it. I have one foot in each camp because I can see. I can see where I think it's going, and I feel like when it comes down in price and the average walleye guy gets it where I live, it could be a could impact the resource. But I'm also like real, I don't like taking stuff away without a really good reason. 00:26:44 Speaker 1: Tell your story. Yeah, you know how drones and hunting, and now guys are putting thermal on drones supposedly for recovery. Who is telling us recently? Some guy they know already. It's like, if you know where a white tail buckets, it's not you're gonna sneak in and kill it out of its bed right, Just that doesn't really You're not gonna crawl up on a bedded whitetail and kill it. I mean maybe once in a lifetime. But when he's setting up, he flies his area to see where deer bedded, and that influences where he sets up to pick them off coming out of their beds. So already, yeah, yeah, I don't like that. When you like, you know what I mean, it's like it's like, oh, no, my buddy lost the buck I'm just trying to find it. 00:27:38 Speaker 8: Well, I mean you think about that and say it. Say the difference between a big woods hunt, you know, low deer density or whatever, or fly you know, fly drone, there would be a different thing. Think about like a cattail slew or a western like western Minnesota, where you could be like that dude's betted in that little willow patch there. We're gonna go push him out, or I'm gonna go sit up over him. 00:27:58 Speaker 1: You know. 00:27:59 Speaker 8: So it's the wind doing this right there, right, yeah? So I yeah, there are ways you could put that to you. I mean we were talking about turkeys earlier. I mean you could probably find a roost. I've never used a drone with the infrared on it. Oh, but god, you could probably find a roost and be like, we got birds right there, you know. 00:28:21 Speaker 1: Sure, browdy, Brody is brody? 00:28:25 Speaker 5: Yep, I'm brody. 00:28:26 Speaker 1: You're probably torn. 00:28:28 Speaker 5: I'm torn. I don't have it on my boat, Like I fish a lot for while. I perch around here all summer long with my boys, and I've been tempted, but I haven't. I haven't gotten it because mostly because I don't want to be staring at that screen all day long. And it's not like this like war against screens necessarily, but it's like you go out fishing and the whole day goes by and you haven't like, yeah, it's just and we do alright with that? You know what I mean? 00:29:01 Speaker 1: You don't find Uh, Okay, this is the last thing I can say before we explain what it is we're talking about. This is interesting bass. So professional bass Circuit they've limited competitors to one LS transducer in fifty five inches of screen space. Te does that mean let's explain what it is first? That's too complicated. Who's gonna explain what the hell it is? Danny. 00:29:30 Speaker 6: I'll give it a shot, but don't get. 00:29:34 Speaker 1: Into whether it's gonna end the world or not. 00:29:35 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, no. 00:29:36 Speaker 9: So basically, if we look back at sonar and what we're running in our boats and whatnot, you know, traditionally we'd have traditional sonar, like two D sonar. We're kind of sending a ping down to the bottom. It's coming back. If it comes back with something like a fish, it might look like an arc, or we might get bottom something like that. But it was all basically history, right, So we'd market whatever sort On the right hand side of our screen there would be most recent and then it kind of scroll across the screen. Oh okay, look we went over a rock pile, maybe went over what we thought was. 00:30:05 Speaker 6: A big walleye. 00:30:06 Speaker 1: What was the delay? 00:30:07 Speaker 9: I mean it you know, it depends on how fast you're going and all that kind of stuff. But let's say, you know, get to the middle of the screen. It might have been you know, five to fifteen seconds ago. Depending on how fast we're going, it could have been second ago. If we're going fast, right. But now with live sonar, what we're doing is we're basically taking like scanning sonar, so it's almost gonna be more of like a side imaging image or a down imaging image. We're speeding it up really fast, and then on top of it, what you're able to do is get a really wide cone angle. So with traditional sonar were maybe seven to sixteen degrees, so the coverage of the bottom not only was it like historical, we might only be covering anywhere from five to you know, ten feet to the bottom. Maybe that's all we're seeing now with a live scope transducer. Let's just say in this case, I have it mounted on my trolling motor. I have one hundred and thirty five degree cone angle by twenty degrees, So if I'm sitting on a lake like Malas on the mudflats. I can look backwards let's say twenty five feet, and I can look forward up to two hundred feet, you know, And and obviously you know it's stepth dependance. So the shallower we go, the less distance that we can see, the deeper we are kind of the better the image really gets. 00:31:19 Speaker 1: And what is tell folks about at what depths does it become irrelevant? Like what are the technology now allows you to fish? Not one hundred feet? Right? 00:31:29 Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean we could go you know, I was trout fishing up in Canada, and we can see down past one hundred feet of water, really, you know. And then there's there's other transducers now, like we've got an XR that will work like saltwater, you know, so you can get down to like five hundred feet fresh water and three hundred feet saltwater. 00:31:55 Speaker 1: I was on the fence, but now I'm like firmly in the podcast over as soon as you said three hundred feet of salt water. But because that's like mystery land down there. 00:32:06 Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, but and it's live, you know. And then as we go shallow, we actually have what we call like a perspective mode, so we can kind of take that cone angle and turn it on its side, so to speak. 00:32:16 Speaker 6: So we're gonna be twenty degrees up and down. 00:32:19 Speaker 9: We're gonna be one hundred and thirty five or technically one hundred and fifty kind of that left and right. So now when we get in that under ten feet of water, we can still get our distance, but it's not like you don't you can't see your bait dropping as well, you know, the fish, the image isn't quite as good as it is like in the forward mode. 00:32:37 Speaker 5: And for people that aren't familiar, like you can point that thing too where you want it. 00:32:42 Speaker 9: Yeah, So like like in this example, I'm in a bass boat, right and I have it on my trolling motor. Wherever my trolling motor is pointed is where that image is looking, you know. And then that's why we picked that twenty degree cone angle. So if we're flipping docks or I'm you know, throwing a bait into some millfoil, or I'm scoping wall with slip bobbers, when I see that fish seventy five feet out and I make that cast, if we were to go wider, we're not able to be accurate, so we keep it twenty degrees, so that when we throw that bait, the bait's gonna land relatively close to that fish if I can land in a twenty degree cone angle. 00:33:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Jeremy. Okay, here's what here. You're gonna get a lot more chance to talk. But the what's good about it is pretty obvious helps you catch fish. All right, Jeremy, if you wouldn't mind, Now that he's explained what the technology is, can you articulate some like what is this? What are the concerns the anglers should be considering as we as we make up our minds about this technology. And I just want to remind people, and before you go, I want to preface this by saying just just to just to give the historical context and fisheries, wildlife management, fisheries management, there is since the beginning of fisheries management, and since the beginning of wildlife management, we have regulated technologies net size, mesh size, use of explosives, use of poisons, use of electronics. We make it that sometimes a year you can't fish. We tell people how many fish they can have, how big a fish they can have. We distinguish between whether you're a resident or non resident, like we regulate the piss out of hunt and fishing. Just to set the this is not like you know this, This can be a lot of things, but this can't be a issue of is it fair to regulate fisheries? Yeah, because we regulate the hell out of fish. Okay, So I just wanted that's I'm just telling for the audience, like any question I think is fair by Mike, but it should start with the knowledge that we always are weighing impacts on impacts on resource. 00:35:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you hit on a topic right away that I think was good. So in terms of technology, like phishing, hasn't really looked at tech and said, you know, like this this tech is out of bounds. I mean we have with dynamite for example, but electronics technology for example. 00:35:20 Speaker 1: So like you can't think of an example. 00:35:24 Speaker 2: I can't. So nobody said like you can't have side imaging or down imaging or mapping is out of bounds. 00:35:29 Speaker 1: Right. 00:35:30 Speaker 2: So, but with hunting, you had a good point earlier on Steve that like you've got this adoption rate when this technology comes on board, where you get a big user group that loves it, right, and then others are concerned about it. So in terms of regulating something beyond that, that becomes really difficult. So to me, one of the biggest places of concern. And I know you love these critters, Steve, with Larry ramsel On here is muskies. 00:35:53 Speaker 1: Yeah right. 00:35:55 Speaker 2: I also want to ask if you got Larry's girlfriend with your bluegill bobber Biteley. 00:36:00 Speaker 1: You know what, though, I think I need I realize he invited me to go musky fishing. Yeah yeah, but I don't think I've ever legitimately caught a musky. Yeah, even yeah, even after talking to him. Okayer, muskies which don't count. 00:36:13 Speaker 2: Well, they're cool, they're super cool fish. But yeah, so muskies in my opinion, like they're they have low reproductive rates, they get really big, they tend to suspend an open water, so they're really easy to see with this technology. So muskies aren't in my opinion, awesome, right, they've been a fish. It's really hard to catch. You gotta bust your ass to catch them. They live in cool places. There's all this cool culture around musky fishing, making lures and you know, just the mystique of it. And so now with the technology like this, you know, to encounter one has been historically really cool. Now you talk to a dude like, how'd you do today, It's like, oh, we got ten any big ones? Oh yeah, we got you know, four over fifty Like what? 00:36:52 Speaker 1: No way? 00:36:52 Speaker 2: Like you can put this tech down and drive, you know, cross sections of a lake and be like, we're not fishing until we see one. You don't even bother with troll Like that's completely a waste of time now because you just use this tech to find the fish cast at them boom. 00:37:07 Speaker 5: Right. 00:37:07 Speaker 2: So muskie anglers like have a huge problem with this, right, And so. 00:37:11 Speaker 1: The traditional musky anglers you bet yeah. 00:37:14 Speaker 2: And I would say, you know, not all of course, but a large percentage of them are saying, hey, man, like, you know, we've had I'm sorry to go to Minnesota here for this example, but it's what I know is like we've had a history of what I would say poor management of muskies since early two thousands, where we've lost a number of our stock fisheries, the numbers of fish that we have, which has forced a lot of pressure on our native fisheries. Because the stock fisheries that they built, they built this big group of anglers who love participating in the sport. The fish aren't necessarily there anymore, so we're putting all this pressure on our native fisheries. 00:37:45 Speaker 1: Can I ask what's happened to those fish? 00:37:47 Speaker 2: It's been a stocking issue and we've had issues with the politics around it. We had a bunch of people back maybe ten years ago that just hated muskies and so got to be this political climate where it just became difficult to get fish. We've had problems raising. 00:38:02 Speaker 1: Because they were mowing on. 00:38:05 Speaker 2: They eat everything, which. 00:38:06 Speaker 8: Obviously is not true when you get that that was the thought that was like the narrative used against muskies. Was it that that they're eating the walleyes and the walleyes are more valuable. 00:38:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, But the bottom line is when you've got these big predators and systems like, you've got a really quality fishery. Like we know that right prices are muskies have big pike live. There's just good fishing if you want a quality fishery. 00:38:26 Speaker 1: So so there aren't many bad fishing lakes that just have giant muskies everywhere. No, they're all amazing, Yeah, big muskies in them, so they go hand in hand with good fish. 00:38:39 Speaker 2: They do, They definitely do so leech, like, for example, which is one of our native fisheries. It's a place where we get all the broodstock for muskies. I was on this like crusade throughout the winter having done this, like just to give you an example of how powerful this technology is. It's like, oh, you know, we know that these fish are out in these open water basins, and it's like these big, huge, expansive areas that essentially, like from a wildlife side, you would look at, this area is basically functionally remote, just because the technology would allow us to access these fish or these fisheries with any you know, precision, any efficiency, really inefficient, inefficient means of targeting fish. So now you go out there. I'm like, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna take my ten year old kid out there. Half hour boom, two fifty inch muskies. You know, Like what, no, man, Like I've done this for thirty years, Like this doesn't happen. Talk to my buddy, you know, Oh yeah, we got thirty one in the last four days, Like what any one? Yeah, the smallest was forty seven. You're going, dude, this is nuts. Now there's thirty boats out here and this has never been fished, like what does this mean? And there's dead fish floating right, So that okay. 00:39:46 Speaker 8: That's the concern. It's not that it's easy, and not that it became much easier than it traditionally was to catch a muskie. It's that now that it's so efficient to catch them, the mortality rate is going to go way up and the resource is going to be in real trouble if it goes the way it looks. 00:40:02 Speaker 2: So, yeah, it could be mortality rate, but you also have to look at this as like the opportunities, So it is going to it is going to condense opportunities right to those who have the technology versus so because you're trying to recycle these opportunities. Right with muskies, you're not looking for a harvest component of this. You want you want to fish to stay in the system. So all of a sudden, let's just just make up a number, Say there's one hundred opportunities for muskie. If you're condensing all those to June at the beginning of the season. With people using this technology, the outcome for the angler who wants to go throw it a weed better rock pile is now different, right, that opportunity has gone to this, you know, driving around not fishing until you see a fish. So there's a group of anglers that are like, hey man, not only could this be killing a lot of big fish that are hard to replace in our native fisheries, we also like to go just cast and suffer, you know, do all this hard work, Like we really appreciate the suffering of this or the reward is big and that's changing the outcome for us, and we want to do something about it. 00:41:05 Speaker 1: No, I'm back to being against it, Dan And I think here's one in my shopping cart at the end of the episode. I'm gonna hit by or not. 00:41:18 Speaker 9: And me and Jeremy got to talk about this a lot, and we're actually both on a panel with the Minnesota DNR where we actually do get to somewhat discussed this a little bit, you know, which is a new thing. 00:41:28 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what's the panel so. 00:41:32 Speaker 9: And and Jeremy's probably better on explaining that I've only made it to the one summit that we just had recently got like appointed to it. 00:41:38 Speaker 2: But so the Minnesota DANARE are has these like species or interest work groups or they've got stakeholders that meet with the agency and you come up with some ideas of you know, what do we want to do for better management for panfish or wall eye or musky. In this case, they've got one technology, so. 00:41:56 Speaker 9: They do they do recently, and they have one I must too, so you know, they kind of go hand in hand there. Obviously in Minnesota, is. 00:42:04 Speaker 1: The technology one focused on a broad spectrum of technologies or is it basically they're talking. 00:42:10 Speaker 9: About live It felt like we're basically talking live scope at this point. I mean that that is the most pressing issue when when you're talking technology and fishing right now. 00:42:20 Speaker 1: Can I throw there's one that I know is Ryland. Folks up, I'm not We're not going to get it. We don't need to like debate this because this is I don't know anything about it. But dropping baits the drones, yeah, is becoming relevant in a couple pursuits dropping baits into bait balls where you can instead of getting a boat real close where you got to start spooking fishing bait balls, you have a drone fly out and can drop a live bait onto a bait ball. And then you used to be a thing like surf casting. You'd keep a boat and then you'd run out and drop where you want and now guys just sticking them where they want them. So maybe you guys can argue about that new little thing but go back down. 00:43:11 Speaker 5: No. 00:43:11 Speaker 9: But basically, I mean, I feel like, you know, and to kind of touch on the first point we've talked about. Me and Jeremy got to talk a lot, obviously, at the end of the day, like nobody wants to do what's wrong for the fisheries, right, and I feel like everybody's opinion and this is this is the point that you know, we always talk about, and like me and him talked about yesterday is you know, a lot of it is coming down to ethics, right, But everybody's ethics can be a little bit different on what we want to do. And at the end of the day, I don't think any outdoor industry company wants to do what's wrong for any other species. Like we want people to catch fish. We want to make superior products that help people catch more fish and you know, have more opportunity. So if we go in and we're devastating a fishery like a muskie, that's very easy with this technology. I don't think anybody necessarily wants to do that. But I think what's important is we want to make decisions sort of based on science, sort of based on you know, facts and that sort of stuff, and not necessarily on a motion, right, because everybody in this room, right might have a different opinion on what is good and what isn't. And some people might like traditional fishing versus some people, like you know, we in this room were all around the same age. I'd say, we grew up in an age where like fishing meant and we're talking yesterday, Like I got a handheld GPS that I'd navigate out on the lake with. Well, my dad would mark a tree and a cabin and that was his method of mapping the lake right, right, and then ice fishing. You know, I was in college during the crappy boom on Red Lake and like I got a flasher and thought that this was you know, that was the end. I was gonna catch a limit every single time. But you know that isn't always the case either, right, And you know I always talk about like bast Master Classic this year got the best of the best. They got the best of the best equipment when it comes to electronics and all that stuff, and some of these guys still can't catch a limit of fish. They're the best anglers out there, you know, So like there's certain use cases, yeah where like I think it might be smart to maybe look towards some stuff, but also like just being careful that in the overall broader picture, fishing is huge, right, and just making sure we're making the right decisions because at the end of the day too, and this is the case I think for everything from white tail deer to wolves to fish, it's not one thing that's killing these fish or ruining a fishery. It's always kind of that death of a thousand cuts. Yeah, right, So like, not only do we have really good technology, we have really good boats now and really fast motors and you know good the two D sonar is better than it's ever been. Side imaging is like, you know, there's a lot of you know, things that can lead to you know, the detriment of a fishery. 00:45:54 Speaker 1: I want to hit you guys with a couple of clarifying questions then we'll get into more opinion. Uh, none of us is probably none of us is old enough to remember, and it was pre internet. Was I was gonna ask about the advent of just fish finders sonar. None of us is old enough to remember, and it was pre internet, so there wasn't like a place for people just to like regurgitate opinions. So you don't really know. But I remember being a kid out on We used to troll out of salmon in Lake Michigan, and I remember the graph paper. Sure, yeah, you had that pencil and you can go home with a big role. It was like the day of fishing captured on a roll. I wish, I wish I could recall what if that was pointed out as was that argued about. 00:46:50 Speaker 2: It was actually legislation in the seventies regarding that. Yeah, so I thought that was going to be a big, big problem in crash fisheries for sure. 00:47:00 Speaker 1: That was debated. It was yeah, okay. The other clarifying question is, how have just just to help further set the situation up, how have the governing bodies of competitive fishing, what has been their attitude about it? 00:47:18 Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, obviously bass fishing is the big umbrella, right, So in walleye fishing, it's kind of business as usual at this point, right, But in bass fishing, you know, there's a few different main you know leagues, I guess that people fish, and it's almost like all three of them sort of went went a different route. And so you've got one that said okay, no forward facing sonar. Who is doing it would be NPFL. And then we've got the Major League Fishing Series where they're going to allow it for like one of their periods. They'll split up the tournament into different periods, and so okay, one of them. 00:47:54 Speaker 1: That's a great little test right there. Yeah, that's almost like research. Yeah right, that's like ab. 00:48:01 Speaker 9: And then bass Master actually is allowing like one one live scope on the boat, you know. 00:48:07 Speaker 6: And that's sort of new this year. 00:48:08 Speaker 9: So last year was was in the years prior was sort of free for all. So that's why they're limiting the number of screens and the number of live scopes, because what people were doing is putting live scopes, say on the back of the boat and using it for side imaging. And now you're getting live side imaging, and you had guys that were running you know, four graphs on the dash five upfront, and so they just said, okay, we're gonna bring this down a little bit and we'll see what happened after this year, right, this will be a good learning year to see what happens. But as they go nothing, yeah, okay, And as you go around the country, you know, like he's speaking with the muskies and speaking with different fish, like different fisheries and different fish are more susceptible to it. So like when we go up north, when we're doing a small mall tournament, a lot of times it turns into a scoping tournament, right, But like when we're down south and the guys are learning how to use four facing son or even in the south, like just left Lake Fork and a lot of guys are scoping there, but a lot of guys are fishing traditionally as well. 00:49:08 Speaker 1: Man, I want to applaud whoever came up with the idea of doing some days with and some days without to be so fascinating just to compare the aggregate the aggregate poundages taken on those days, that's an interesting little test, man. All right, let me heet you with an opinion one A way, I've always looked at things that the influence efficacy is that we have a our resources occurr in a limited pool, okay, and the way we allocate resources is dependent on success rates, meaning just to put in the simplest terms. Let's say you have I'm gonna put in a I'm gonna put it in a big game term, and I'm someone at the table hopefully can come up with a fishing analogy and big game. Let's say you have a unit of space. Okay, you have a However you divide it up. You have a region or a unit or a mountain range. Let's say you have a mountain range and on this mountain range you have one hundred elk. You've determined that you're gonna pursue a ten percent harvest rate on those elk. So you're saying, we're going to kill ten of those elk. We know that our hunters traditionally have a ten percent success rate. Therefore, we're gonna give one hundred individuals a hunting opportunity in those mountains because we're going to wind up hitting our harvest objective. If we look at this historic efficacy, then let's say you were to go to that mountain range and you say, we're gonna try something new this year. Boys, we're going to give out one hundred tags. You can hunt at night, you can spotlight, you can drone you can thermal hunt, you can mount a firearm to a drone. Okay, unlimited. We're going to make the season three hundred and sixty five days long. Now you turn out that you have a ninety success rate, ten percent of dudes don't show up ninety percent success rate. The next year when you issue tags, you're like, you know what, I think that we're going to have to do this. We're going to have to issue eleven tags, not one hundred, because efficacy has shot through the roof. So now eleven people will have an opportunity to participate as opposed to one hundred people having an opportunity to participate. The question to each of you is do you feel in fishing there could be a similar situation at play where you're going to feel you used to be able to keep five, but no one really caught five. Now you can keep two or whatever the hell do you picture? Or to put it to an ethical question, it's two parts. Will this could this become a thing in fishing? And would you regard that as an acceptable cost of the of using the technology? So will it happen? And would you support it happening. 00:52:24 Speaker 6: I'll let Jeremy go first. 00:52:27 Speaker 2: Well, I think you hit on just a great point here. So you know this is where in hunting, I mean, you guys know the efficacy of a spear, of a long bow, of a compound bowl, of a cross bowl, of an open site rifle. So all these technologies obviously can add to the efficiency of a harvest or you know, a harvest opportunity or a catch in the case of fishing. So we're asking the question right now in fishing that kind of drives me nuts a little bit, like does forward facing sonar impact catch traits? Like we have no idea what the answer is, And of course the answer is yes. But it's variable, right, It doesn't it doesn't happen every time, but it can obviously, and it can make a make a big impact. So we're gonna address this. Sorry to get off track here, We're gonna address this a little bit like we want to we want to look at data, We want to look at science to answer please answer this question right. So, and I'm not at all against science, but I'm gonna just say that the means in which technology is improving and the adoption rate with anglers is happening is massively outpacing any regulatory processes that can happen, the way we collect data, the way we analyze data, the way we implement what we learn from that data. So, like a good example in Minnesota, I've got a buddy who's on this bluegill committee. Right, So for like ten years, they're even longer than they've met saying they're like, hey, you know, we're losing the big bluegills in Minnesota. This is far before forward facing so or even side imaging, right, just the big blue gills are disappearing, they're being harvested. We want to tech the big blue gills. We want to have a quality bluegill fishery in this state. So they talk about it for ten years. Clearly the best solution is to not harvest the big bluegills, just keep the big ones in the system, keeps recruitment low, all these great benefits to it. 00:54:15 Speaker 1: So which would which is complicated because you're introducing the idea of a bluegill slot limit? 00:54:19 Speaker 2: Okay, right, yes exactly. Let me let me get to why this is so complicated. So this is clearly the you know, that's that's the answer. So they talk about it for years. Eventually they come up with the idea that you know what we're gonna do. We're gonna take some likes and we're just gonna keep less. Well that's not the answer. The answer is don't keep the big ones. Right, So now in five years now, and they're gonna take ten years to assess that to see what the impact was and a reduce bag. And now they're talking about once that's up, we're gonna look at doing like a nine inch you know, maximum size harvest. So this is going to be like a twenty five year process to use this science to identify, like look back twenty five years where we're at. So I'm not saying that science isn't wrong, we shouldn't look at it, we shouldn't use it. I'm just saying we also need to look at how this is a social science issue as well. But like there's just some places or people who don't maybe want this type of technology or as much advanced technology coming into certain areas of the sport. So it's a it's not a you can't have live scope, no more live scope for anybody you know, or you can't have it, But like we've got a lot of opportunities to experience, experiment with different resources where we could use it, when we could use it special regulate. We've got all these opportunities that I think we really need to be looking at more, starting with a social component, you know, saying, Okay, we know we've got groups of anglers. Let's listen to anglers. Let's try to manage for what the user's expectations are and want as we work on the science in the background. 00:55:46 Speaker 5: So, has there been any like knee jerk regulatory actions taken like anywhere yet? 00:55:53 Speaker 1: Well? 00:55:54 Speaker 2: Montana said no, rattlefish naggling, right, yeah, and. 00:55:57 Speaker 9: A few states have lowered you know, catch limits, but that's really harvest limits. 00:56:03 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's really about it. 00:56:05 Speaker 1: Could you got to answer my question? 00:56:07 Speaker 2: Okay, what was the question? 00:56:08 Speaker 1: Now? 00:56:08 Speaker 2: I went in a tangent. 00:56:10 Speaker 1: Uh, do you feel or whatever you have for any kind of survey data or anything like that, do you feel that in some fisheries live scope could lead to could lead to adjustments in the regulatory structure. The second part of the question is would you feel that that would uh is that acceptable? Yeah? 00:56:37 Speaker 2: And it already has right, like an harvest species like Mississippi lowered croppy rates on their Big four down there and they attributed that to live scoping, so it's. 00:56:47 Speaker 1: Already articulated that that was a response to that. Yes, the dudes are tearing it up on croppies. 00:56:52 Speaker 2: Yes, so that is already already happening. And then paddlefish, Yep, yep, paddlefish, that's happened. 00:56:59 Speaker 1: Well, that was different. Like for Montana to say you can't use it to snag paddlefish is the opposite, not the opposite. It's like, Okay, the technology is coming. We either limit the technology or we say it's coming. Everybody's a better fisherman now. You can't keep as many fish, right, You're all better now. So now we're going to lower the potential impact by going after bag limits, going after seasons in order to accommodate the technology. So that'd be another way of putting the question, is you feel that it could lead to a reduction in the resource. And when you look at a state agency coming in and saying, Okay, it's here, we're going to lower bag limits, do you like that's an approach orders the approach of it's here, we don't want to lower bag limits, so we need to make it not be here. 00:57:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it can be you can look at it different ways. It can still be here but maybe used during certain timeframes. 00:58:01 Speaker 1: Right. 00:58:02 Speaker 2: So I mean it's back to this whole how efficient is your effort? 00:58:06 Speaker 1: Right? 00:58:06 Speaker 2: How efficient is the angling effort? So I think it's I think we should ask users what they want they how much do they value the technology over the experience of catching fish. Would you rather be able to use this technology and be able to catch whatever you can catch in a certain window of time, right, or would you just say, you know what, we want this experience to last longer, and therefore we want to limit technology. So I think that's that social component that I think we need to understand as much as as much as anything, because to say that this technology won't impact opportunity or catch rates just you know, to try to understand what that is. I think we already know what the answer us. 00:58:45 Speaker 5: From an enforcement perspective, the reduced bag limit approach seems a lot easier than have an award going around checking every boat. See if they got a live scope transducer. Yeah, that seems like a nightmare. 00:59:03 Speaker 4: Yeah if they if they did. Instead of getting rid of like basically saying you can't you can only keep two wall eyes and use live scope year round or whatever rather than like just getting rid of it all together and keeping that bag limit bigger. 00:59:22 Speaker 2: Well, and we've got plenty of people in here who don't have the technology, So is that fair to you? You don't have the technology, so now you could keep six. 00:59:29 Speaker 1: But now because it get you want to give Danny a turn to respond. 00:59:35 Speaker 5: That's a good question. 00:59:38 Speaker 1: No, I'd like everyone around the table like, Okay, I had a meandery. I wanted to give Danny a chance to respond to the question, which is being is the answer to regulate around it? Will that even be necessary? Or is the answer to uh, stop the technology? I mean? 00:59:58 Speaker 9: And this this is like I said, this is or it's difficult, right, So everybody's idea on what to do with it is going to be so different. And the hard part, and we talk about this quite a bit, is a lot of times it's that top ten percent of the anglers that are doing all the catching, all the keeping a lot. 01:00:17 Speaker 1: Of time things. 01:00:18 Speaker 9: Yeah, and so it's it's hard because you know, we're making all we want to make all the regulation on that. And then also, like I said earlier, we don't want to make regulation based on an emotion and so like in the panel, for example, we had a lot of guys that were very anti you know, against live scope and whatnot. But they've never used it and they don't really know, you know, the implements of it other than what they've maybe heard, you know. And then there's some media out there that's kind of like, you know, just putting taglines out there, headlines out there to get clicks. But then it's not necessarily like they're almost pitying it as the bad guy. Well you know, like I say, if if you're gonna go out and catch you know, ten muskies in a day, like you're the bad guy. Not necessarily the technology, right, So why why do we need to limit a great resource where I can learn about the fish, I can learn about the fishery, I can see what's on the bottom and and use it you know, respectfully or ethically whatever that means, versus a guy who's going out there and he's not you know. So And in a lot of times, especially in muskie fishing, a lot of a lot of it's like the guides, Like there's some guides so State of Minnesota prime example, Like you can go out put an ad on Facebook marketplace and say hey, I'm a musky guide and no license, no training, no nothing, and go out and target ten muskies every single day to make your money. 01:01:46 Speaker 1: There's no resource, no licensing or process on that unregulated, not even like insurance requirements. 01:01:54 Speaker 2: I'm sure there is that. 01:01:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, but any any any you could become I could go there tomorrow. Yeah, got it. 01:02:01 Speaker 3: But you only need like captain's licenses or anything. 01:02:03 Speaker 2: Too great length. 01:02:06 Speaker 9: So like you know, you know what I mean, Like there's a lot, there's a lot to this. It's it's it's the death of a thousand cuts. Again, it's not like every single person going out there is catching all these fish and causing the problem. It's kind of that top tier. It's certain small groups, you know, that's all sort of leading to something, and that's where like if regulation is needed, then then that's the avenue. Maybe we go down, but we want to do that with like a good science based or some actual factual information versus going on in motion or going on what small select groups are doing. We want to make sure we're making these decisions, we're actually making a smart decision. 01:02:46 Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty funny. Our colleague Ryan Callahan. We were one day talking about technology and specific we were talking about putting the camera down through the ice to watch fish, and he was talk about the emotional side of how you perceive it. Like you're saying, like guys that are against it, they don't really know what it is, they've never seen it, they haven't seen any data, but they're just against it. Cal was talking about this feeling of like, if you're ice fishing, you could be catching fish and having a good time. A guy comes and drills a hole near you and lowers a camera down and cows as you get this feeling like we're fuck now ye all of a sudden, it's like less fun. You know, you you thought you were having a great time, but now you're not. 01:03:33 Speaker 6: But that feeds in exactly to what I'm saying. 01:03:35 Speaker 9: Right, So I might sell live scopes to one hundred people at a sports show one weekend, right, but ten of them are going to know how to use it, you know, Like you can have all the technology, you can have the greatest rifle and hunting gear, but you're not always going to shoot that deer, right, Like, So obviously it's a tool that helps, but it's not the end all be all like people like it's made out. 01:03:57 Speaker 1: To be all right. People wanted a chance to weigh in on it. So I just want to clarify a question because it's a complicated question. Well we could, we could forfeit the idea that it's going to impact harvest. I think everybody here is acknowledged it's very effective for fishing. So let's just accept that it's going to impact harvest, if you will clarify this and put it. Everybody needs to imagine a lake they. 01:04:26 Speaker 5: Like to fish. 01:04:27 Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lake you like to fish, your favorite fishing spot, and they come to you and say, okay, we can do two things. We're either going to lower bag limits and shorten the season and keep live scope, or we're going to ditch live scope and keep the regulatory structure the same. So it's come down to you. Don't you Danny doesn't like this? Go ahead? 01:04:48 Speaker 9: No, No, I like the question, but like once again, it just it feeds into like, no two people are the same, right, Like I like to hunt white tails on private land out of a deer stand that I already hung. Tony likes to go to public land, and you know, hope something's there? 01:05:07 Speaker 3: Right? 01:05:07 Speaker 1: Do you feel the question is not a good no? 01:05:10 Speaker 4: I could give an example on the fishing side of things, like I like to go to four peck and target big walleye and I'm never going. 01:05:17 Speaker 2: To keep them. 01:05:18 Speaker 4: Okay, I would love to use live scope doing that. Okay, exactly, I love but that's not answer my question. But what's I don't like to go to for peck and keep a limit of walleyes. You know he's not targeting big fish. He just wants to. 01:05:34 Speaker 5: Yeah, Like in my case, I'm looking for a limit, so like i'd be like, we're out the lake I'm thinking of I don't need the forward facing keep the limits the same. 01:05:45 Speaker 1: That's where you were you were putting this. What's a Faulstian decision? I don't know. Isn't that a thing? 01:05:55 Speaker 2: All right? 01:05:57 Speaker 1: Okay, so you don't have to answer. You could do like Seth and have some like some kind of waffle he doesn't like, Like Danny like the question, sat there and answer the question, Tony, do you what do you think about the question? Do you know this? 01:06:10 Speaker 8: This has almost given me PTSD because this feels just like the crossbow debate in the White Tail world. Okay, and I actually I mean I look at forward facing so and are kind of like we're almost going from traditional bows to crossbows. 01:06:24 Speaker 1: People are scared of it. 01:06:25 Speaker 8: People don't know, you know. To Jeremy's point, you're like, okay, well we're gonna we have a social aspect where a lot of people are like, I do not want this because this is going to change the game and on on a broad level with the average user, which is kind of undeniable, right, But you also have what actually is the impact on the resource, and so what you're talking about is like the science. To get the science, we always have to go retro right, Like either that or you just ban it and go we're just gonna be proactive and it's gone. But we don't live in that world right now. 01:06:58 Speaker 1: Well, now, the drone situation was that world. There was the minute there was like a whisper of private jont drone use. I always remember it was kind of one of the more interesting wildlife management moments of my lifetime. Thirteen states, I mean, in one year, thirteen states banned drones for hunting use. Western states and also some states that are not hippie dippy anti hunting states. 01:07:25 Speaker 5: Like some hard hitting Wyoming was one of the some hard. 01:07:28 Speaker 1: Hitting conservative pro consumptive use states Alaska right like pro not just like looking for any reason to screw with hunters. Some some like heavy forward thinking game management consumptive use states right wing leadership right out of the gate right, and that's no one had. No one waited to be like, well, let's wait and see for ten years if efficas rates changed. They just knew they. 01:08:02 Speaker 3: Did it well. 01:08:03 Speaker 8: And I mean, I think the only Devil's advocate I'd play there is it's like a it's a different beast managing elk versus how many croppies are in Minnesota. Right, So I mean it's a fair point. But I look at it and go, maybe this is a weird perspective, but everything that makes it easier. A lot of these guys who are like, no way, I don't want that. I don't want crossbows. I don't want a bait deer. I take it right down the line. I don't want to sell cameras. The adoption rate when that stuff becomes a little more affordable, a little more ubiquitous across the hunting population. These people who are against this stuff, they don't understand often end up on the side of using it. Because so if live scope was one hundred and fifty bucks and it took you five minutes to mount on your boat, all these guys would have it, right. 01:08:54 Speaker 1: I think those are haves and have nots components. Well, there isn't. 01:08:58 Speaker 8: There's just a component of not people not being familiar with it and like hearing about you know, and so that I think you have to play in the world of going, Okay, this stuff exists, it's legal right now, and it will be adopted by people who are against it if it comes to that. So kind of to your drone point, like if you believe that, and I do, then you would have to make that decision. Do we proactively go no? And I'm not on that side yet. I just I feel like it's coming and it's going to be it's going to change regulations. 01:09:32 Speaker 1: I think that I've mentioned this drone thing a couple times, but out of fairness, I need to acknowledge that these are not analogous, right, Like, like you could look at sonar as being an evolution of sonar. We agreed what it was in the seventies and somehow we were on a trajectory of not regulating sonar and then sonar. This isn't the answer. I'm saying, like sonar advanced. What made the drone thing? What makes it imperfect as an analogy, is it really was sort of this brand new, all together new concept. Right. It was like if there had been some other like the drones at first had extremely limited capabilities and you couldn't really picture where it would lead, right, Right, it might have had a different path, but it was sort of like it emerged as an altogether new thing and was sort of you had an opportunity to like say yes or no, right in a way that perhaps even like cameras, the gradual increase and efficacy of cameras, and then they kind of became that it was cellular cameras. 01:10:47 Speaker 5: Right. 01:10:48 Speaker 1: There was never a real clear inflection point, right, I would say. 01:10:53 Speaker 8: That was a big lead. Yeah, And the closest thing would be scouting from an airplane. 01:10:57 Speaker 1: Which they had already haggled about, right, right, that's a good point. They had haggled about airplane use, and it already said if you fly, you can't hunt that day. Let me hit Can I hit you? Guys? Another question I want to set up with an observation of my own very similar bit of technology. When I started fishing in Southeast Alaska, we would fish off charts like as close as you can get to no detail. Just it's like it's like an open ocean portrayed on the chart, and then you have some soundings printed in a sort of equal spacing, so you could tell twenty fathoms, six fathoms, forty fathoms whatever, no detail. It made fishing very challenging because there was always this feeling of a kind of randomness. Okay, I've now gotten to the point where use navionics data. My catch rate one went up. My understanding of the ocean and what's going on, and my enjoyment of the experience went up hand in hand where it was like, oh wow, I didn't know that that was like a really sharp hog back ridge. It would be like in the old days to be like now, and then you'll catch a blank like over in that kind of area. Now I'm like, oh wow, they like to lay on the drop off point of a hog back ridge. And when you get there, get ready it like uh, efficacy up, understanding up sort of like inspiration about the landscape up. You could it was just like it was better, more fun, more education. Taking that and looking at it with live scope. Do you feel that it's uh, do you feel there's something similar at play? Is it like ultimately taking from the experience or is it adding to the experience. We'll start with Danny. 01:13:18 Speaker 9: So I'm gonna give two things here, Okay, Right, So I obviously you know, like I love live scope. I love to fish with it. I like how I can be selective in which fish I catch, you know, if I'm targeting eater fish, for example, I can target eater fish. I don't catch big fish, I don't catch small fish. I don't catch, you know, accidentally catch muskies. Back in the day when we'd you know, rig leeches and creek chubs, we'd catch whatever would bite it, yep, and it would swallow the hook every time. Like, I feel like I can actually fish more efficiently but also more you know, ethically, so to speak with the fish. Fishing with that technology, I can learn about what's on the bottom, I've said, on a lax lake in the winter time and watch the migration of walleyes as they come and go off those flats morning and night, and it's like I've just learned so much about fish behavior and what they do. And that's where like if you know, like using it in that matter or matter, it is so beneficial to an angler, you learn so much. I enjoyed the experience more. I'm able to bring my daughters. They're able to see the fish moving around and if anything gives you hope. You don't always catch them, but at least you can see them down there. 01:14:26 Speaker 1: Right. 01:14:27 Speaker 9: But then also from like an industry standpoint, right, and the cross both thing here is a prime example and hits me. Hits me because I'm a white tail guy, right, and you know with ford facing sonar, I mean the one great benefit it also brings not only understanding fisheries, but look at what it brings to the industry as far as dollars go. 01:14:47 Speaker 3: Right. 01:14:47 Speaker 9: So now we've got all these baits aimed at ford facing sonar. You can go buy you know, a new Berkeley power switch and it's got the FFS ford facing sonar logo right on that bait, letting you know the angler know it's for facing zonar. So it's created new industries within fishing. There's a new fishing line called Forward Diowa makes live scope rods that are you know, twelve hundred dollars odds you can use four livescoping. So, like you bring all this new money to the industry like Crossbows did, and you know a lot of times if that money can go back into the industry or keep the industry going, especially coming right out of COVID with all the new anglers we have. I mean there is a lot of like fringe benefits you don't necessarily speak of that not only add benefits to when you're out on the water, but benefits to the fishing industry in general. 01:15:39 Speaker 1: They're subject to what's the fishing Dingle Johnson L Johnson? Is that technology hit by Dingle Johnson tech? 01:15:47 Speaker 6: The technology wouldn't be, but a lot of the other. 01:15:49 Speaker 5: Stuff would be. 01:15:50 Speaker 1: The hardware is not hit by Dingle Johnson. 01:15:52 Speaker 2: Reno electronics are exempt. 01:15:54 Speaker 1: What yeah, man? Yeah, why is that. 01:15:58 Speaker 2: Dude? 01:15:58 Speaker 1: Boat gas is an exempt right? Yeah. 01:16:00 Speaker 2: So it was a navigational tool when when dj was getting started. So it hasn't been modified. 01:16:06 Speaker 1: Oh they need to get in there and hit that. How much is a how much is a what are we talking about? We never established how much does it cost to get your boat set? 01:16:14 Speaker 9: Up. I mean, a live scope system is going to be sixteen ninety nine retail, and then you know a screen that you'd use with it, you're looking at anywhere from let's just say eight hundred bucks on up, depending on what size you had, you know, like when I first started, it's a lot of seven inch units. Now we're sending selling a lot of ten inch screens, so you're going to be you know, about three grand. I'll say it to be all in. 01:16:36 Speaker 1: Okay, does it improve or detract from the experience? 01:16:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't want to come off as like I just hate this technology because as a student of angling fishing my whole life, this is the most insane coolest thing ever to happen in fishing, right yoh, all the like if fundamentally changes it, like what's out there? Oh, I know what's out there? There's a big wall, you see it, right, Like, so it just changes things. 01:17:06 Speaker 1: So it is really cool. So that you brought up the great. 01:17:10 Speaker 2: Point, Steve of the GPS technology, like all of the other tech is really and that's really the foundation of a lot of it. Right, So if I can't easily navigate to these locations, it will likely be spots to hold fish right, like forward facing sownar. Isn't that great if you've got, you know, just a paper map that doesn't show you much like if you're not going to go to habitat fishing right, So so the map is huge. And talking to you know, I was talking to al Linda about some of the big moments in his career and fishing, and one that I thought was most interesting is he was like big outboards, man, like bigger. 01:17:48 Speaker 1: Boats, bigger outboards. 01:17:49 Speaker 2: When we could go out on Lake Erie and we could go out in the middle of Molax Lake, He's like, that changed fishing, you know, like that was a big moment in changing fishing. And that's marine electronics often get picked on, but that that was a huge deal. You brought up out wards earlier and this and then the other, you know, fundamental shift was mapping and being able to navigate, especially big bodies of water, find spots in the middle of the Lake Traverse Canadian Shield Waters. Now that you know, spinning the map around everything looks to say, you know, like it's pretty cool. So technology absolutely adds to the it can add to the experience. Yeah, absolutely, So I guess how much how easy you want to be and how much do you value some of those intangibles that are the mystery the difficulty in fishing, And that's kind of I think what we want to measure to some degree is how much value is there in the mystery those intangibles, and those are some of the things I think we need to consider. 01:18:46 Speaker 1: Uh, let's say this isn't a question, it's just something to respond to, just a thing to muse on. Let's say I developed some crazy technology where I could I all of a sudden had some technolog where I had I could put a map in front of you, and I could be like, every elk at all times is on this map. And I went to a body mine, I'm like, check this out, right, most dudes, let me look at that map. 01:19:18 Speaker 5: Right. 01:19:18 Speaker 1: But then I come and be like, I'm going to sell this map anyone that wants it. Then people are gonna be like, I don't think you should do that. Yeah, but I think a lot of guys would want to peek at the map if they could peek at it secretly. Right, So there is a point at which like we go to that extreme, and I some people don't like extremes when debating, But I'm a big fan of extremes when debating. Most people would agree that if we could do that, if I could show you a map and every elk in existence on that mountain is on that map, or just. 01:19:53 Speaker 5: The three hundred and sixty bull is. 01:19:56 Speaker 1: On that he's always on there, no right where he is at all times, I think that you'd have ninety whatever the hell eighty ninety percent of people would be like, that's just going too far, and I would go like, but think of how educational it would be to understand how elk use the mountain. That's all the big bulls. Isn't it cool? You can see exactly where they like to lay, when they move, when they spook, where they go, what they eat. How educational? And people would say yeah, but yeah, but yeah, so there's like there is an extreme. I don't know how to put that into a question. But this can't be this can't be that. It's not like, it can't be that all mysteries are revealed. 01:20:44 Speaker 9: Right, and you know, like it's not obviously, And I know one thing people like to say is using life scope is like spotlight and white tails or scot light and deer. Okay, and although you can find the fish quicker, they still have to react, right, And if anybody's tried to catch a walleye on Leech Lake as of recent you'll know real quick that the fish start to learn about live scope and boats following them around. And where before you used to be able to maybe make a forty or forty foot cast at a walleye, you now have to try to make an eighty one hundred foot cast, like you know what I mean. And so like the fish still has to react and bite that bait. I've thrown my ned rig at a walleye one hundreds of times where they don't bite, and you just got to keep moving on. So even if sometimes you know where the fish are doesn't necessarily you know, mean you're gonna catch them all the time, you know. And obviously muskies are going to be a little bit different. I feel like there always going to be maybe an exception. There's other species that are too, but like you know, knowing exactly where that bowl is and then you know, going with a long range rifle or something like, it's it's similar but different. I guess, just like spotlighting a deer, like once you spotlight the deer, Like the deer doesn't have any choice there, like the fish is making the choice to still react bite bait. You still gotta make your cast within that twenty foot color, twenty degree cone angle, you know. 01:22:05 Speaker 5: No. 01:22:07 Speaker 4: I got kind of an example up Chester and I fished a tournament on Fresno here in Montana a few years ago, and everyone was kind of in this one part of the lake and we we motored up in this part of the lake that was super stained, like two three inches of viz. And we started marking a bunch of fish, but there was no one fishing there. So we dropped dropped down to megalive and we figured out if we if you drop we were drop shot in these walleyes, and if you put it five inches from him, you weren't catching them, but if you were to place it right on their nose, you could catch them pretty much every time. And that's like an example where if if we didn't have that, we end up taking like seventh in that tournament and every like a lot of people struggled, but we just figured out this one little thing and a super stained water where if we didn't have live imaging, like you would never have. 01:23:05 Speaker 3: Caught those fish. 01:23:07 Speaker 4: But we were just able to like really sharp shoot and like pinpoint these fish using that technology, and we like ended up catching a bunch. But I was pretty confident where if we tried to do that, like you just had to put it right on their nose. 01:23:24 Speaker 1: It was getting you fishy. Otherwise would have never would have. 01:23:27 Speaker 3: Never have caught those fish. 01:23:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Le's you want to address that one. Well, nothing, I don't know what you want to comment on that one. 01:23:35 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean you just get this precision accuracy to your point, that just wasn't It wasn't possible. And you know, like back to the muskie thing, I mean, that's not like the spotlight in common or whatever. That's what that's what musky guys call it. They call it road hunting, spotlight and sharp shooting like. 01:23:51 Speaker 1: Guys, yeah, yeah, right. 01:23:55 Speaker 2: And so this is if you guys are familiar with the concept of the tragedy of the commons as well, like this really applies in many of these cases where and it's quite interesting, like ge back to the muskie world, like on Leech Lake. This has gotten to be a hot topic. So all these guides are out there, they know like this is bad. Like what we're doing out here like bad. We should not be catching this many fish. But if I don't do this, I'm not going to catch nearly as many. So if I decide, you know what, I'm gonna take the high road, I'm gonna just go fish traditionally and not do this. But you know what, the guy who's twenty years old, really good with tech, just buys this stuff, he can start guiding tomorrow and he's gonna kick his ass the guy who's been doing it for thirty years. So they're just caught in this rut and saying, hey, we need help. We need help stopping ourselves from doing this. So it's a really interesting situation that we're in with that. 01:24:48 Speaker 1: There was a famous buffalo hide hunter and he observed when he was down in the I think he was in the Texas Panhandle. He knew what they were doing, that they were pushing the animals to extinction. And he would say, sometimes they get so disgusted and I'd be like, I can't do it anymore. But he said, you'd wake up and off in the distance, he's like, someone's doing it. It's gonna happen no matter what you know, yeah, that's it all right, the last question, and we would go around and remembering and have you can have two things. You have a final thought if you want, but you also got a crystal ballet. What's the fair number? Ten years, twenty years, ten years, ten years where we sitting just kind of like you know, where were sitting on the debate in ten years what happened? And ten years what will have happened? As we weigh this all out. So a final thought, if you got one and then crystal ballet ten years down the road, I would expect to see blank. 01:25:55 Speaker 6: Yeah, So I guess final thought. 01:25:58 Speaker 9: I'll start with that obviously, you know, obviously I think my big perspective on it is is, you know, there there's always going to be the two groups, the people that like it, people that don't, people kind of fall in the middle. Doesn't necessarily matter what we decide as far as regulation or whatever else, like, it's still going to there's still gonna be that that those groups, you know. And that's where I say, like, as long as we're making decisions based on the science, based on you know, actual facts and what's going on versus just on emotion and whatnot, I think we'll be will be in a good spot, you know. The one bad thing and Jeremy alluded to this a little bit, is like, right now, how we're getting those facts isn't necessarily like the most effective way, right So, right now we're getting a lot of those facts through creole surveys, you know, and to some degree there's probably some truth to them. And it's pointing out that that top group is the group that's catching the fish, doing most of the harvest that kind of stuff, and everybody else is still kind of the same, right We're not really showing that much or if any increase in catch of fish or any of that kind of stuff. You So right now we're showing like really it's not having an effect, is basically it. But you know, how are we getting these creole surveys? Are they doing them at the correct times? Are the muskie guys really coming off the boat access at noon now they're coming off in the middle of the night or you know what I mean, before the sun comes up, whatever else? And are we actually hitting those guys that are harvesting a lot of the fish? Right So, I think there's a little bit of a flaw in how we're getting that data, but just making sure that we are using good data and good information we make those decisions. I think that's the most important because it does have a big impact on the industry and we are bringing a lot to the industry and a lot to the upcoming generation because of the technology. So ten years down the road, where are we going to be? Well, I mean, I've been in this business now for ten years, been with Garment for ten years, and when I started, we were using two D sonar. Right now we're using live scope. I can see fish two hundred feet away in livetime. So I mean, who knows what's coming right And we're sitting here and we're debating what's happening right now. But like you know, we're all middle aged guys, right, and we grew up in a time where there was no cell phones, there wasn't really internet and all that kind of stuff. And now look what we have, right, And so this generation of Anglers that's coming up right now, like with the new bass Master Classic Angler being young and a lot of young guns kind of in this tournament series in the content game, right, like, they're going to drive that technology, I think further and further and further. And so what we should be looking at, maybe concerned about talking about, is what's coming more so too, versus what we got going on right now. So in ten years, no, I mean, who knows? 01:28:49 Speaker 3: And good point. 01:28:49 Speaker 6: And that's where like I think Jeremy has a great point. 01:28:52 Speaker 9: And hey, we like we can't wait for twenty five years to figure out if we have an effect on bluegills, right we need to figure out that right now. So let's figure it out. Let's make good decisions, let's work together, Let's drive the industry. Let's continue to get these anglers. You know, we added almost a million youth anglers to the to the industry last year. Let's let's keep doing that. Let's use the technology with them, but use it in the correct ways. Train ethics, you know, like a lot of it really comes down to the anglers, like deer hunting, Like you can do a lot of things that you maybe shouldn't, you know, But where does that start. That starts with like the values and the ethics that we have as fishermen an outdoorsman. 01:29:33 Speaker 2: So Jeremy, well, I guess that to Crystal Ballad, I think there's going to have to be some examples of a fishery crashing or really you know, showing like, oh boy, there's a strong correlation between this use before we decide that we're going to be proactive on managing technology for the most part, and it'll be a reactive management strategy going forward, would be my guest, at least in the state Minnesota where I can speak to. But I think technology is not going to slow down. I think we're going to pursue this idea that we want to make the fishing experience easier or comfortable. We want to improve cat trades, we want to make you know. I mean, that's just that's just where it's going. That's that's where it's headed. So I'm not saying that's bad, but I'm just saying that trend will continue. Yeah, that trend will continue. 01:30:26 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:30:26 Speaker 4: I'd use live imaging, and I like using it. 01:30:30 Speaker 3: It's fun. 01:30:33 Speaker 4: Some fisheries I don't use it because it just like you guys were talking, like, there's there's times when it's helpful and other times it doesn't matter. And I'm the type of guy who maybe keeps a limit of. 01:30:46 Speaker 3: Walleye a year. 01:30:48 Speaker 1: I don't keep a lot of fish. 01:30:51 Speaker 4: If it went away tomorrow, I'd still be out there fishing, and I don't think it'd make a big difference in my life, got. 01:30:59 Speaker 1: It, fish you wouldn't change, You wouldn't fish less days? Nope, No, no, grint. 01:31:06 Speaker 7: Well, I don't really have enough experience with any of this, But one thing stuck in my head from talking to you guys before the show, before you came out here, which was really again focusing on and this is what I can't not think about the generation that's coming up with tech, and uh, if that's just going to be if we won't get ahead of that. So I know we touched on that a bit today, but that you know, in five ten plus years the generation now your kids age, you know what they're used to and what they're going to be clamoring for. And if we're really going to set regulations in advance of that, and potentially with technology even developing faster better, that's just the one thing that's in my mind. So not sure if we'll react fast enough, Tony. 01:32:16 Speaker 8: I feel like when Jeremy's talking about the Musky guide thing and feeling the pressure to compete against the twenty year old who's going to use it without any no compunction at all. He's just like, I'm going to go. This feels just like how deer baiting is sort of a social contagion where you're like, I don't want to do it, but now my neighbor's doing it, and all my deer disappeared on opener, and I want my kids to get one, And so I just think we have to look at this and go, it's gonna be pretty widespread adoption, I think. And what kind of just occurred to me while you guys were talking is so we live We're all kind of Minnesota boys. We live in this world, know these lakes, and kind of that's the filter which we kind of view it through. But I was like, in my head, I'm I imagine if you like a selfie stick kind of thing with a little portable version of this, and these fly fishermen out here walk up to a hole, stick it in there, look at their phone, and go do your baby doing it right? But people will do it, But that would be a catalyst for like work, Like I think that people would go this is a use case like it that's too far for me. So like we if you're really close to the muskie issue, this is like if you really appreciate that opportunity, like this is a hot button thing right now because you can see that that specific use case is probably going to be trouble at some point or or already is. It's like a lot muddier when you're talking like grand scheme of things pan fish populations, walleyes, whatever. But I tend to err on the side like Danny, You're you have like a pretty charitable, charitable view of the average fishermen, like, well, we got to train them in ethics and this, and I'm I think about a lot of the old timey walleye guys and I know, I'm like, you give them a chance to put more fish in the boat, they're gonna do it. Like they're not gonna They're not gonna think about that for a second. And so I think we have to operate in that world. So ten years down the road, Crystal ball in it, I feel like we'll probably see some level of reduction and opportunities. If that's just limits or if it's shortened season or something like that. I think we have to consider that because I could see that, like I believe that's probably coming. 01:34:23 Speaker 5: Brody, I'm still on the fence. I'm nowhere, like I'm in the same place I was when I walked in the room. There, Well, crystal Ball, I mean the cats out of the bag. It ain't going anywhere, you know what I mean. Like, I don't think I think you're gonna have a real hard time disallowing the technology, other than in very specific cases like Montana paddlefish, where it's like a set number of anglers on a short stretch of river that can be monitored. I just I don't think anybody's gonna be like no, you like it can never I don't know. I mean, it's there. I'm I'm leary. But the reason I'm leery of putting it on my boat now because you'll watch it, is because my boys will pay attention to that to the exclusion of everything else, like, which is annoying. 01:35:20 Speaker 1: That's true. When I introduced ice fishing with a camera my older boy, if you don't got the camera, he's less interested in going, right. He loves it, uh and he'll he would sit there for three hours intent watching that screen glued. But that's different. That's parenting. That's not right. 01:35:44 Speaker 5: That's that's parenting. 01:35:45 Speaker 1: That's not regulation. When I crystal ball, just to take to the pure crystal ball. If I crystal Ball and I really had like bat money on it, I would bet that you will see a noticeable You would see a noticeable increase in restrictions, maaning just as we can point to, just as we can point to like paddlefish snagging whatever. I think that you'll have in ten years. I think you'll have more examples of a fishery for perhaps an imperiled, low fecundity fish whatever. I think that you'll have some instances where people find that a resource is pretty limited, it's really reliant on low efficacy, and it might be that rather than shutting off the fishery, you'd have select instances where you decided to control the technology. I think that, like I would bet on seeing a handful of more examples in a. 01:36:51 Speaker 5: Place like Minnesota, where there's so many lakes, you could have like forward basing free lakes. 01:36:58 Speaker 1: Just like Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what form it'll take when I crystal ball, but I think that we'll have instead of us keep saying paddlefish, paddlefish, paddlefish, I think we'll be able to go paddlefish whatever or whatever, whatever, whatever, and we'll have more examples with all that set it has to be totally fair. With all that said, if you showed up in my fish shack. 01:37:18 Speaker 5: And you could go find and you. 01:37:19 Speaker 1: Said, dude, here it all is, let's hook it up, I would yeah, I would say, let's go now to continue that thought at the end of the day. At the Depending on what happened at the end of the day, I might I might have. I might also say that was amazing. You shouldn't be allowed to do that. I had. Let me give you this just a like a sort of closing thought from Phills. Wave me up, I'll keep it quick. You can hunt coyotes with thermals, and in the state of Living hut coyotes with thermals. We were out thermal hunting during deer season one time. Okay, it's deer season, but we're out at night thermal hunting kyotes, and it occurred to me, I'm like, dude, we ain't breaking the law, but there's some hot intel. 01:38:11 Speaker 5: There's some hot into up against that line, especially if you were coyote hunting at five o'clock in the morning. 01:38:19 Speaker 1: We weren't, we were at the tail end, but I'll just say it just occurred to me, like, dude, I could be like I'm kyo hunting bro, and could have had a feeling like, yeah, I could see someone saying that you can't deer hunt after you kyote hunt a thermal. Right, all right, thanks guys for coming out, man, I really appreciate it and coming out and and uh and kicking. 01:38:38 Speaker 5: This all around. 01:38:42 Speaker 3: It's a good conversation. 01:38:43 Speaker 1: It's great conversation. It's interesting. It's one of those things that makes everybody a little smarter you think about. 01:38:48 Speaker 5: All right. 01:38:48 Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks again to our guests, Danny Jeremy, Thanks, Man, appreciate it. 01:38:52 Speaker 9: Thank you,