00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case underwear listening to Hunt podcast, you can't predict anything presented by first like creating proven versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for every Hunt first light, go farther, stay longer, All right, everybody joined by what? Joined by? What might perhaps be our most requested guests? If if me looking at um skimming uh social media comments now and then is any indicator Cam Haynes bow hunter, UH endurance athlete? And now well you you've always been. You've been an author for a hell of a long time, an author again and an author again, a brand speaking a new book Endure how to work hard, outlast and keep hammering. Which is available now. It's ships like just it doesn't matter if you if you order right now, you won't know the difference if you're if you're in fact listening to this on the day like today May sixteenth. If you're listening now, you want all the difference because it ships all pre order ship May seventeen. Right, So you go by like go to I'm gonna do this very diplomatically. Watch how I do this, go to your local indie bookseller, go to Barnes and Noble mm hmm, and then there's that one outfit starts that's it. Yeah, Or go to Amazon and it will ship and you will get Cam Hayness new book ender. Um, how's that going? Was that fun? Working on all? That? Project? Is a new one. I've I had pretty much self published my other two books, and so this was the first time through a publisher like you know in New York. Yeah. So it's you know, you meet with the publishers as you know, and uh, they make a pitch for the advance and all that, and so make a decision. And first time I've ever done that. Yeah, was it an easy decision? Um? Well, do me ask you this? Did you here's did you not go with the highest bidder? Uh? Ask for more money from the highest poder and and that's a tough negotiation right there. I know you've already won the bid, but I would like a little more. Yeah. I don't know if they I don't know, I don't know how it works. So I had a book agent, but anyway, I just went with the person who mostly that I felt best about From the conversation we did an interview, and I just I felt like they they My story was resonated most of them. That's whyse decision making. We're gonna we're gonna get into We're gonna get all into that, but we gotta cover off on some other stuff up top. Per uh per use here. So oh, here's a big piece of news. You know, my whole thing about how oh you know what's funny? I got ideas stacking up on each other. My kid was out ice fishing with his buddy and got a costed by some guy because my kid had a meat her hat on. She's like, yeah, starts a costing my kid about how his day, how his dad wants to make it the hugon Hunt Yellowstone. Jimmy's like, so what I'm like, Jimmy, First off, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know like a joke when he hears one, and the fact that he's a costing eleven eleven year old on the ice about this? Was he serious? He goes, oh, he was mad. So he realized that that was your boy. Well he got to ask him my kid like, what's up with that hair? You know my kids eleven years old? My dad tells him what up, and he's like, well, I got something I'd like to say to your dad. But hunting Yellowstone are idiots to back off other people's I would love I was trying to grill about who where, how? I don't know how to find this guy. He's in town. But here's the funny part. I basically now I basically now get to hunt Yellowstone because I drew Montana's most coveted tag, the buffer zone tag. Oh he didn't. You don't know this, No, he didn't tell me. You should be applauding me. That little Bison triangle right right north of the park, the buffer zone around the northwest corner of the buffer zone. It's like this hunting restricted area. You can't do much anything in there, but there's five tag holders and and I have a bazillion had a bazillion point. Yeah, no, I don't have great luck all the people that there's only five tags, So good luck drawn an If you go into that draw with no bonus points, I think you have a point eight percent chances burning. Spot burning exactly, spot burning the most grizzly infested area in the state. Yeah, you can't do much there, but they give out five ELK tags for that what wraps around that? What that? What wraps around like the extreme northwest corner has nothing to do with lot Korean or these points that he's talking about. It's all his influence with slates lawmakers, the National Park superintendent and said, uh, I listen if you don't want in your part to make sure I get one of them buffer zone tags this year or next year. I don't like. I didn't draw any like I barely. I didn't like. I apply for everything everywhere. I don't have extraordinary luck. Last year I drew nothing. Okay, I just want to do draw something. I'd like to tell everybody about it. The nice that tag for you is the it's probably only like a five minute helicopter flight from your house into the when I chopper into there to hunt it. No, I'm real excited about that, very excited about that. Uh Oh, here's a good thing that we need to talk about. Because someone do you believe someone sent in a photo where they're claiming that there I don't know, claiming is a strong word. They're saying that they found they shot at Turkey and found their father's shotgun wad in the Turkey's crop. When I first saw that picture, I thought it was going to be that they were so close to it. But you know what else, A guy just sent me. A guy just sent me um. And it was kind of in one year now at the other. In one eyeball and out the other. He opened up a crop and there was a perfect copper bullet in its crop. However, the hell it found that eight eight monolithic bullet. We had all kinds of turkey stuff going on. The one I shot a few days ago had a whole a hole punched through the top off it's breast, assume from flying into a branch. It wasn't like green and nasty yet, so it didn't do any you know. I had to discard two breasts off turkey one time that came in like came into a call of goblin um, and he had he had jabbed a stick, must have been trying to land. And I pulled a big chunk of stick out of there, and it was so infected and nasty and stink so bad. I threw it. I threw the breasts out that whole went threw his breast and into his crop. There's like pine nuts like in his breast, you know what I mean. They were falling out of his crop. M and then Seth you had a Yeah, my my buddy Casey Underwood shot a turkey that had a like one of those Gammo air rifle pellets in the breast cam sick and books many watching my handies. They are curious and they can eat big things in one goal. Uh. The other day we tore down on an old shed and there was some mice nests underneath it. They didn't quite gulp down the adults, but I can tell you what those hairless little babies that were squirting around those were going down like no problem. Like then there's no there's no chewing, you know, it just gets got down, then it gets ground up or whatever. So you know, to eat a shotgun wad, why not? But did it eat that shotgun watt or is that just the guy's wad lodged into the bird. I think that had there would have been some major trauma. We'll look at it. Yeah, but the pellets if he was I think what Janice is saying, if the wad made it, yeah, because and his whole neck off or whatever, you know, he let mean just I gotta ruin one other crazy turkey thing about Cam hang with us man, I know turkeys aren't your thing, but yeah, he's actually vowed he was into a sports start according at this point, you vowed just to not shoot a turkey. Yeah, making a stand. Yeah what if we found you? Like Steve's actually next week going on a wilderness back country. Yeah, we're not. We're gonna walk eight miles before you start hunting. Yeah, I mean that sounds better. But still, like what I've always said, and this is like an inside joke back home, but the best thing that can happen on a turkey hunt is you kill a turkey. So like, because people like to say, well it's kind of like l hunting, you know, they're just you know, call him in, and I'm like, no, because the best thing that happens on an elk hunts you kill a big bull. The best thing on turkey is still just a turkey turkey. So that's true. I also know that I know a number of elk counters who are who hate the the equivalency. It's like, I only know one other he's staunchly opposed to that. Yeah, but I've heard the grumblings. Yeah, like there's grumbling to respect to cam. But I think that the best thing that happens is you're going to kill a turkey. Is like, that's a that's an argument for Yeah, it's great to kill turkey as well, and you're not like carrying all that hundreds of pounds. But you might not be aware of too. Is I'm actually opposed to this. But you can score turkeys. You can't the spur. It's like, I've seen him weigh it, so you weigh it. Then you gotta like measure its spur and times at by something. It's times at by something that is minimum for a turkey. Do you know, No, it's really bad. It's like, yeah, people will be like, well, I've got a high scoring turkey. People measure them by length total length now too, don't they? The hunting public dude started that just as Yeah, I think I just kind of just a joke. The long bird they call them, all right, But tell me what you think about this. I get home yesterday. I got a bunch of stuff in my truck, so I've gotta take multiple trips in and out house. I'll leave the side door open after the first trip, go back to the truck in the time that it takes me to go to the truck grabbing the load of stuff and come back into the house. Four or five chickens and two turkeys have entered my kitchen through that side door. Yeah they're curious, man, you leave the door open there. Right in one of the turkeys, in this very short amount of time, has jumped up onto the countertop and right where we keep our basket of eggs, is already got her beak in the eggs and is like coursing moving not the chicken egg the two turkey eggs that are in this bucket that either she or the other hand laid and she's working them. This happened in your kid somehow, Like I don't know, man, but it makes me think that there's like some sort of ship in the head going on there that we don't know about, because how does she She's never been in that house, because the little baby turkeys are like, dude, it could be. It could be because I think they're fur lies. Because I was telling you those wild jake's bread those hands. Oh really, the wild jake's are having sex with your turkeys, and are you gonna let him sick? Things are getting pretty rich. I think that after this podcast, I'm going over to Murdock's and buying a incubator good shop. Yeah, I mean the kids are going to have a blast with it. I mean I'm gonna have fun with it. Yeah, what else are you gonna do? Just try to breaking a law? But I don't know what the law would be. Are you a criminal if a wild turkey breeds your turkey and then you raise those turkeys? I don't know. Are you stealing wildlife? Well? No, we can bleep out what he just said. Dude, this is like a real crazy gray area because if you're go find an elk calf, you damn sure you can't bring that home. Right, A couple action, You're good. That's crazy. If you had a dog that like a coyote, like Kyle Bread your dog and had puppies, you'd be fine. I think you'd be fine. Right, This is this is gonna this is gonna end a real stone or stone or landscape. But you know, if you to a willow tree, if you did, you know this what I'm gonna say I do. I don't think he had to be a real big pot smoker to appreciate this. If you play the sound of running water to a willow tree. The willow tree will send root tendrils in that direction before. That's what I'm saying. At some point, you're not gonna eat anything when they find out how what's going on out there, No one's gonna need anything. Yeah, the vegetarians don't find out that their food has is talking to itself. Yeah, what are they gonna eat? A couple of corrections, Um, this is bad. I got talking about we're talking about top Gun, and I was saying how it made a lot of people. I was talking about top Gun in the Air Force, guys, like other than a beach volleyball scene, the actors are wearing Navy uniforms, flying Navy aircraft, or they are aboard Navy aircraft carriers throughout the entire movie. I assume you may have some Navy vets a bit upset with you, so apologies of us were in the room when you were saying that, and I didn't catch it either. If you would have asked me, I would have known that they weren't in the Army. If you just said that there are they in the Air Force in the Navy in that movie, I don't know if I would have been answered correctly, it would have one more correction. This is more substantive. We were talking about when we when we had the episode with Mr Nugent, we were talking about lighted knocks and mechanical broadheads being illegal in Ohio, and we were particularly talking about like weird arbitrary Ohio, sorry, weird arbitrary tackle archery tackle restrictions UM. As of February, legislation h B five oh seven was passed according to I I d f G Idaho Department of Fishing Game beginning July one. Two thou so coming right up, it is legal to use mechanical broadheads and lighted knocks in the taken of wildlife during any archery season. Rejoice. That was more of an update than a correctional correct. I mean at the time that we recorded, we weren't technically correct. It's breaking news, that's more. Yeah, I'd put more as a breaking news. Uh. Chester caught the pretty much the world's biggest wall I ever caught. But before you touched on that, I needed I need to tell you I forgot to mention we touched on earlier that I am now ordained minister YEP, so I can conduct Seth ceremony this summer. You seem real excited about that, very excited about they're sending me. They're actually sending me a wall plaque in the mail. You're gonna wear like the priest uniform. I'm addressed like an old Wild West preacher. Oh that's gonna be great. I can't wait. So world's biggest walleye lifetime best, my lifetime best. Honestly, when I saw that picture, I didn't know they made walleyes like that. So Cal and I were out fishing and there was no other boats out on this local lake. We were at not a single boat. The water was colder than you'd want, so it was like thirty five degrees. Um really still still pre spawn. But we're trolling. Um. I never get to do that with Seth. He doesn't like trolling. Anyways, we were we got like fishing a d D. Yeah, dude, is get him that. Give him a dolsata a d D medicine and see if he likes trolling more. I just give him bush light if you're in a troll. Anyways, Uh, So we were trolling. We had planer boards out um, and we were trolling slow like one point two to one point five miles an hour, and we had marked a big pot of fish caught about a thirteen inch er, which is very very common to be expected out there, and there's a lot of carp in this area. So we're trolling along and all of a sudden, that outside planer board, the tattle flag goes back, so it's kind of like watching it tip up, except the flag tips down rather than tipping up, and that that planer board starts pulling towards the middle of the boat, and Cow's like, go chet, you're on, you know, and I grab it and I immediately I'm like I snagged a carp because it was just a lot of weight. Yeah, just a lot of weight. And I'm sitting there marking away point and trying to slow the boat down because I did not think on the other end. I did not expect what was on the other end of that that line. And uh, anyways, so I'm cranking reeling. I get to the planer board and you disconnect the planer board from the line and then you keep reeling and it's just heavy. It's getting towards the boat. I'm expecting it to see a yellow carp come up nasty um. So it gets to the surface and I see white on the tail, which walleye fisherman knows that they got a little white spot on the tail. And this isn't a little white spot. This is a big white spot. And I didn't say anything at first because it really didn't register. And the thing got to the surface, and with the refraction in the water, it looked like it was four ft long. And I'm not kidding. I was just like, oh my gosh, it looks like I mean like, it looks like it's four ft long. Yeah, And anyways, my legs starts shaking because, like I couldn't believe it. In any walleye fisher we would know that this fish was big. It was thirty three and a half inches. It was twenty one inches around of girth, and cal said he didn't even measure it in the right spot, so it could have potentially been even bigger. The Montana state record is thirty two and a half inches with a twenty two inch girth. This had a twenty one inch girth and it was thirty three and a half inches not how do you know it's not the state record because we didn't have a scale and you know, I don't really hold Jester, you re record. Yeah, I don't really care to have the state record. The fortune could be rich. John Morris would have been knocking at your door. Yea, yeah, we got a guy coming on the podcast pretty soon because he shot the biggest archery white tail ever. Well, crank bait, you get it on, you got you got a few those for free, blue chrome flicker Shad Berkeley. Berkeley would have been kicking the door down, Jessee. You'd have the number like, at least at a minimum, the number two state record Walleye. Well, I mean we don't know that for sure, but it was. It was a big fish, and I was I was a static god just to think that. I could have said, like, man, you know what, buddy of mine, state record holder. But now I can't say ship. I gotta be like, oh, I know guy that you know it's a guy, Jester. No one cares to hear that. Well, you know, let it go. That's mighty big of your chester. Yeah, there's full eggs, just thinking how many eggs I know. But I'm saying nine out of ten, nine out of ten Americans, Americans have been taking a fish home nine point Americans. Congrats on the fish. Thank you. That's a great one. Yeah. Yeah, if you like fishing as much as I like fishing, it's like shooting a bowl, you know, like if you were to compared to hunting. So it was pretty sweet. So how big did that state record walleye? How what is its weight? It was over eighteen pounds, so I don't know if it's like eighteen point two or eighteen point five, but it's round eighteen a little over. And and that fish who knows, you know, I mean it could have been fifteen, it could have been nineteen, it could have been seventeen. Do you think you might want to get yourself a little scale? Seth has one late Now, I guess it's not gonna happen. You go fishing our thirty years and maybe catch a fish like that. Yeah, Chair was supposed to come turkey on with me that weekend. He ditched. Steve gave me some four Do you look at this as a good positive omen to the beginning of the walleye tour? That's hard to say because being a fishing guy, you know, if you catch up a fish on the first cast, it's bad luck. But this isn't even same day, same month, So I think we'll have some time to recuperate and uh catch another when they make a documentary about Seth and Chester's uh first year as tournament walleye fisherman, that like like a or like a fictionalized version that that'll be in that because you can play either way. It doesn't matter, Like you're gonna put it in there and it will be that. It was either like a harbinger, right, it was like it's a big part of this whole story. Yeah, so can these guys are these guys are becoming tournament walleye fish they're doing their first year of the tournament? Two nice? Does that count? Or is that so when is a tournament Maybe it's the weekend of like May. Yeah. Yeah, to make account he would have had he would have to keep it alive and then pass a lie detector. That's tough. Yeah, you seem pretty honest. But if on that day you're like, I caught another one that looks just like the one I had on social media, Yeah, that could have been your signature that that bait us could have been your signature signature series. Yeah, the chest Chester Floyd Flicker Chad. Yeah, next time you catch big wallet, I need to have a talent manager with you to tell you how to handle the situation. But if you want to see a picture of the fish, I mean it's an impressive ass fish. Yeah. Uh, go to at musky Chat, right there's no underscores and all that weirdness. Just at muskie Chat you can cheer. Uh. These boys are rigging up the electronics and their new um, their new tournament boat right now. Well yeah, we didn't take a break for this, but we've been rigging the last two days. A lot of wirings. It's a sweet boat. Yeah. Yeah, we've never done it before and it's quite a process. It goes into it. What do you win in the tournament? We don't rights for us, but you can win money and we're gonna donate it back to like access, whether it's a fish cleaning station at the local lake we're fishing on, or boat ramp improvement or whatever is needed, some sort of project, you know, around a lake. But good luck, they're gonna be uh, they're gonna turn into philanthropists. Yeah, alright, boys, thanks Steve. Thanks, I'm gonna go pack for turkey hunt. Alright, So not moving out we gotta do it. This is this is a We're gonna jump into a Shawn's Duck report real quick, because Shawn's gonna hit on something of international or national news significance their day. I got a body that always sends me articles every morning I wake up, I read whatever he sends me. Thirty two bald eagles have succumbed to avian influenza, which is nothing period of what it has been doing. Um tens of thousands of ducks right now dying from avian influenza. And Seawan is gonna break that down for us. Yeah, So I got to talk to dr Andy Ramy. He works for the U. S g S. He's a research wildlife geneticist and he works in Alaska on avian influenza. And uh, what got me all interested in the whole avian influenza outbreak was I had got a text in January about the first confirmed case of what we would call highly pathogenic avian influenza, you know, blue wing teal, I think if I remember right, and it was like, you know that that stuff kind of happens. But when the snow geese got back to South Dakota this year, it was like holy cow, something's changed. So I figured I should probably do a duck report on it, which this wasn't the duck report we had originally planned to do, but it's it's relevant for sure. So how how Dr Rami described how the highly pathogenic avian influenza works is, typically there's avian influenza in all wild birds, but it's what they would call low path it's you know, not causing symptoms or sickness, any kind of actual disease. They just kind of all kind of have a pool of virus as always working through the population. Every now and then, what happens is avian influenza will pour over from the wild birds into a domestic bird population, but it's not highly pathogenic when it does that. Now, once it gets into these domestic birds, that's where it can become highly pathogenic. That's where you get kind of the you know, the news articles and headlines every so often of all these poultry and domestic birds getting killed off. Historically, what once it becomes highly pathogenic and domestic population, it just stays in domestic populations until it never really worked its way back into wild birds. And during that outbreak in North America, we had our first positive North American wild bird cases and they had ninety eight of them. This outbreak puts that to shame. It's not like anything we've ever had before. It is uncharted waters for sure. For example, this outbreak, we have over forty species that have been infected. The positive tests are in the thousands, but frankly like they've kind of quit testing all the reports. For example, South Dakota is right now sitting at I think forty eight positive tests, but I've on one rocky bank on the side of a lake counted like forty three dead birds myself. So it's hard to know. You know, wild birds are hard. You can't really quantifying year as easily because they die all over the place and they're all spread out. They're not concentrated. But it's running through the wild population and it's pretty intense. Are they are? Is there any way that folks can Are they worried about it moving to folks the way that you know, I mean, the same way that that COVID nineteen right jump from an animal host to a human host. Is that a concern? Yeah? It is. There has been times since two thousand three where bird flu does jump into humans. Um I think there's it's around eight hundred sixty human infections and half of those are fatal. So like, if it does jump the kind of animal human species barrier, it can be real bad news. So they're definitely worried about it now. You know, typically you have to have a lot of exposure to the virus to see it umped that barrier. Um you know, when it has jumped the barrier in the past, it's domestic, right, it's poultry. But the U s d A does have a bunch of recommendations out on how to handle wild birds and kind of how to proceed with this going through. There's two reasons for that, one being they don't want you to transfer it to other bird populations and also they don't want you to go get sick. So they are they talking about wild birds you just final laying around dead in your yard or they mean like wild birds that you get when you're all hunting. Both, Yeah, just wild birds in general. You shouldn't be eating or drinking when you're in contact with them. You shouldn't have the carcasses around other birds. Use dedicated tools for cleaning those birds, and make sure they don't get near poultry or your pets. Are you supposed to put on like an ninety five masks? I didn't see anything like that, just when you finally got the burn all your damn masks. Like, what I want to do is make a big quilt hold on, Sean. You can't be like breathing too much around them, but you can still eat them. Yeah, that's that's what I'm gonna Because they're talking about having a dedicated pair of shoes that you wear while cleaning birds and eat the bird. Then what have that? A dedicated like you know, jacket, dedicated kitchen for cooking the birds, So presumably you're cooking it out of the meat Sean, Yes, and yeah, you know they recommend you cook it too hundred sixty degrees, which is hard to fathom eating snow goose has been cooked that that long. But the shoes thing is about the feces, right, That's where a lot of bread comes from, is fecal matter. And what's this that about? What's this where the Minnesota Border Animal Health banned exhibitions of poultry? Yeah, what is an exhibition of poultry? Well, they mean like even stuff like fairs or sale barns or stuff like that. But they all, yes, yeah, and there's a lot of states doing it. Even up until you know, April fifteen, they were hoping that the Pacific Flyway was in the clear. But now it's like Idaho and Utah and Wyoming, everything's getting it. It's it's pretty much everywhere. It's rampant at this point. So they're trying to keep domestic populations from moving around too much and being you know, sold and moved, keep your honest as turkeys from having sex with the wild ones. Yeah, he's really Yehan, he's rethinking now having his turkeys and chickens walking around on his kitchen count. So, Sean, when I you know, when I said that, when I was teeing this up, I said tens of thousands of duck deaths. And I was only saying that because of seeing pictures on social media and other places where it's like pictures of shorelines covered in dead ducks. But my number was probably my numbers probably exaggerated, right, Like, it's probably not what I'm what I was saying, Well, I don't know, because you just can't really get a tab on how many wild birds are dying from it. You know, I personally have seen hundreds of dead birds um scattered around our local lakes here. You know, they had a lake in Illinois that had two hundred some dead birds. Okay, I mean there's a lot of birds out there that no one's counted up right exactly. You know, they just they don't have the personnel to go test and sample all these birds. And then when you get what when there is an avian influenza outbreak, how long does it? How long does it play out? Do you believe that this will still be a conversation people are having next you know, when duck seasons start a start back up next October or will it have run its course by then? Yeah, I don't know. The outbreak was seven months. Um, you know, we're three months into this one, but really it didn't get going until un till March. So yeah, it's hard. It's hard to know. Definitely, the spring migration was kind of how this spread so quickly because it timed out perfect where right as it entered the North American population was right as the spring migration was starting, So it's perfect storm of timing versus outbreak was over the winter, so it was so spring migration just meaning that there's a lot of birds on the move, carrying and passing along to other populations of birds. Yes, yep, Hey Sean, is there anything that you can, you know, observe behaviorally or in physical appearance to tell whether a bird's got influenza? Mm hmm, yeah, definitely. One of the symptoms I've seen a lot um around here is like a bobbing head. They'll kind of be sitting there and just almost like someone nodding off on a warm day. They're just their head is sitting there, flopping side to side, or they'll be flapping their wings real goofy and slow. Definitely seeing a lot of them just not scared of people. They just sit there right in front of you and don't don't move as far as you know. Anytime you see that or dead birds in general. The one thing that Dr Amy had said is like, please report it, whether it's too if you're on private land, like to the person that owns or manages the land, if you're on public to whatever agency it would be, because most places have a protocol for how they're supposed to handle that, whether it's you know, through the U. S d A, or Fish and Wildlife Service, whatever it may be. UM and the other thing is there now recommending takedown bird feeders, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah, talking to everybody on my block through the war on bird because all the time, man, uh, do you think Sean, is anybody guessing that this could have population level impacts on waterfall species or is it too early to say? Yeah, they're hoping not. It's too early to say, but they definitely are paying more attension to it now than they've ever had to before. You know, before it was a purely domestic poultry problem, and now you're really seeing easy to observe wild bird impacts. So they're they're worried, but not to the point of maybe like you would be with c w D. Got you well, I mean, we'll keep us posted. Yeah, what's your next duct report on? I think I'll now finally get to the the GPS tracking one, the odometer one. Oh, like how many miles the duck puts on? Mm hmmm yeap oh man, that's kind of a Now you got me all worried about ducks. Well, I don't think. I don't think wild turkeys jumping jumping in and hanging out with Janice's pet turkeys then walking around in the kitchen's probably not ideal, Sean, are you recommending that that just take out the whole flock, domestic and wild. At this point you need to not don't whatever you do, don't exhibit them. Yeah, don't take them to the fair. No exhibitions, thanks man. Yep, all right, so you ready, Cam, you don't want to talk about turkeys to everybody about tell everybody about and do her? Man like what what led to? What led to it was people saying like, yeah, I'd write a book someday. Uh not really, I don't know. I mean I think, uh, Jim Shocky has a um person. He's worked with Greg Gusts Show, and he knew this book agent, I'm pretty sure the book agent that Jim and Eva had used before. And they've been trying to get ahold of me. And I usually never call back anybody, and so anyway, this one, it's just like a little rulier this. I don't know why. I just like, I'm not good with any business. And uh so finally I talked to this book agent esther, and she was super fired up, and it's just like you, I think you should do this, this would be huge this and that, and I was like whatever, I mean, I don't, I'm good if I don't, good if I do, not that big a deal. And so then we said we'll see what the publishers think, and so then everybody's fired up. So we just did it. And but you had to do like you had to start collecting your thoughts. Yeah, um yeah, I mean it's it's mostly just uh, the book I think in general shares um. It doesn't matter how you come up, what your upbringing is. If you follow your passion, whatever that is, you can have whatever success you dream of, essentially, and so it's it's that's the story. And I thought that might be useful to share to two have other people, maybe impact other people. So I thought, okay, let's do it if you had to. If you're gonna take that line of thinking and look at your own, um, your own upbringing and decisions you may have when you're young, do you look at Are you like surprised you landed where you are? Oh? Yeah, yeah, no, I mean that's I had no you know. I what I say is I'd never let anybody down because nobody expected anything of me. So it's not like I'm like, oh you you let me down or you had all this uh you know, you tell like I tell my kids, you got so much potential. Nobody ever said I had potential to do anything, you know, So, um, I wasn't not living up to it. So yeah, I mean I I figured what I did coming out of high school, tried to play football. Um, wasn't really that into. I went to school on and off for a few years after high school. But then I thought, well, I'll get a job setting chokers. And it's like back home, that's what people did. You worked in the woods, and I liked being in the woods stokers. Yeah. It's just you know, were working on a logging site. So guys go down there off the landing, they set chokers on the on the logs, and the followers come in. They follow the trees and then you set a choker on. It gets drug up to the landing and and cleaned up and then it's like half inch three quarter inch cable. Yeah. Yeah, you're just dragging it around. It's usually pretty steep country because that's timber country. And back home, that paid pretty good. I mean it started like thirteen bucks hour, So I'm like, god, I could you know thirteen bucks an hour? I'm good to go. That'd be awesome. And so I thought I was gonna get a job logging, and the same day I was offered the job logging for s A logging was. Um, I got this job at uh just the City of Eugene, working summer help and just working picking up dead animals. Basically they got hit. They people would call in a dead dog or a possum or something deer got hit and I'd go pick it up. And if I wasn't doing that, I'd weedied along the bike path. And so I'm like, well, you know, working for the city, that's always a good, good career. So that's what I was gonna do. It's safe, right, secure, you know, it's like people like me that was like, this is as good as it's going to get. So that was my goal. So if you'd go on path at least resistance, that was where you would wound up. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I guess. So, I mean, but you like, well, I want to get a smart stuff. But this is jumping ahead a little bit. But you for you've at this point established like well, you have a very established career um as a bow hunter, as an endurance athlete, like you're like a well known figure. You do a lot of media projects, right, you have a lot of sponsorships with people. But you kept you kept a regular job for a long time. I still have it. You still have the regular job. I'm I'm superintendent at the Water and Power company, So you still have your day job. I knew you did, but I didn't know you still did. No, Yeah, I used what are you waiting for PTO today to come here? That's funny because I think if you type in like I'm trying to think what the Google search would have to start with, but it will auto Phil Does cam Haynes still have a real job because because people are always wondering, like if every time I hear that, I get surprised all over again. Yeah I do. I go to work every day except today. I use vacation seriously. Yeah to me, um hunting, Like I said, I'm I'm not good at business. I don't care about business. Um, I have value, so I'm I'm not stupid, so I take advantage of the value I have. But hunting to me means more than any business. So if I don't have to rely on it, I can just tell whoever I want I'm not doing that, and you're not telling me how I'm gonna hunt what I'm where, I'm gonna hunt, what I'm gonna do. I'll do what I want because if it all goes away, I have this job. Yeah. But here's what one of the things that surprises me is like you do a lot of races and stuff, and these are time consuming things, and the training is time consuming. Yeah, the training is hard. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I I don't get much sleep. I get up, um to train for a two mile race. I want to run a marathon a day. I want to be able to do that for know, weeks at a time and get in those miles. To do that, I have to get up before work. I'll try to get in at least ten or thirteen in the morning, run at lunch, and then whatever the balance is to get that twenty six after work. And so I'll just I work it around, um, basically in my life. And you know, I still want to hang out with the family in the evening, so I do that, they go to bed, then I'll get those miles in, or I get up early before work and get those miles in. So the found you know, I'm still away from work all day, but I still eat dinner and watch a little TV and then go back to training. What's time to get up in the morning. It depends on what my goal is. I mean if some sometimes I want to do a marathon before work, and if I do that, that will be like two or two or two thirty and then I have to be at work at seven. Jeez, Yeah it's not I mean, I don't instead of calling that book and I call it bout tired. Yeah, that would be a good name. But what are you worried about? I want to get back into your biography. Are you worried like with all the emerging with all the emerging research about like long term effects of like chronic sleep, chronic lack of sleep, you can worry. No, No, I mean people say that about knees and about you know. What I would say is tomorrow is not guaranteed. So why would I be worried about if I'm sixties, seventy or eighty years old when I might be dead tomorrow. How old are you and how long have you been doing this kind of regimen? Um? I ran my first marathon when I was thirty two, so I plenty of yeah, decades. Yeah, do you see or do you not even think this way? Like, do you see like that lifestyle coming to an end at some point? Are you just gonna keep going until you drop dead? I mean, I'll keep going. I don't. I feel I just did uh a mountain marathon. I got fourth Um, So I mean I'm not I'm banged up just because I'm old and they've got a lot of miles. But I still feel pretty good. Yeah, it's and it's something you enjoy and you just want to keep doing it. It's I like pushing myself. I mean, I like, I don't feel running for me has been a way for me to say, uh, just to just I'm putting in work and so I feel like I can't be in the mountains every day. I can't hunt every day. I count scout every day, but I can put in work every day, and I feel like running is like I can go to bed no one, Okay, I did, I did. I moved the needle in the right direction today. So that's that's what running does. I want to back up from it, though, Uh, at what age did you start hunting? And at what ages you start bowl hunting? Um? I started hunting up fifteen. I killed my first deer, a spike mule deer when I was fifteen, with a rifle, and my stepdad got me into it. I didn't. I didn't. We didn't get along because he wasn't my dad never really liked him. Um he's still around. Yeah, he's still around. Yeah, and he wants to cut that part out. But no, no, no, no no, he's that's hey. I talked about it in the book. I mean I hated him. It's just nothing he could have done about it because it wasn't your dad. That's pretty much. He wasn't My dad was all it took. And then it was like then, you know, he had a hard job too, so he would come home. He was a roller operator um on the construction, you know, and hot, miserable work. It comes home. Here's this kid who doesn't like him, so I'd always have it. It wasn't a great situation. So but and I give him a lot of credit because he did take me hunting, even though I'm sure he didn't want to. It took me and my brother hunting, and that kind of started it. And I killed the spike buck and then I you know, team I'm like, hey, I got some positive feedback that I killed a buck. And it's like, as a kid, that feels good to get some you know. And I was like, man, this is I like this. I like, I don't know, I like kind of like the challenge of it. It seemed it was hard, but I got it done. I got positive affirmation. So then that just kind of progressed. And then my buddy Roy got me. You know, I was eighteen, I think, and he he was year ahead of me in school. He was nineteen. He was he had a trap line and all this. He was like always known in our little school. Was like, it's like the authority on hunting because he just I was always out there trapping and doing things. And so he said, hey, we played football together and we weren't best friends, and uh he said you need to start bow hunting. And he goes, there's way less people, way more animals. It's awesome. And I'm like, oh, that sounds that sounds sweet. So I started bow hunting and then, um, I have never rifle hunted since. Is that right? Really? That was it the ages that that was twenty by the time I bought my first bow tag. So you felt like it was a thing you had to be that you're just gonna that's it, You're gonna hunt with the bow. That was Yeah, I just didn't have I don't know why I didn't have any interest in rifle. I still went with people. I still took my little brother. I have a little brothers ten years younger than me, Like his first three deer, I took him and he killed with the rifle. Um, you know my kids, they've all rifle hunted. I just it's I've always just been a bow hunter. And it's like I go on a lot of hunts where it's any weapon and uh, you know the most high pressure one that most people kind of falter on if they say they're bow hunters, but then it's a sheep hunt. Um, it's like, you know, that's it's bow or nothing. I'll eat the tag. So it's just that's what I doline. What do you think it is about bow hunt? Because I think that there's you're obviously not the only one that sort of identifies that way, And he was playing a people that do a lot of both, me included. You know, I like to mix it up. And when his rifle season, I hunt with the boat with a rifle. But I mean, do you have any like thoughts on like what is it about like the bow hunting that really just hooks people where they're like, yeah, I don't even have an interest to go hunt with a rifle anymore. Um man, I don't know. I mean, I'm I've always once I started, it was just like and then Roy was the same way who got me started? You know, he's not talked about him in the book. He died in He Fell sheep hunting and uh, we're just bow hunters. That was it. I mean people now they'll they'll meet me that might not know me, and it's like, so you're the bow hunter and it's like that's all I ever wanted to be mm hms it. I mean, how many animals have you killed with a rifle? Like before you started, be like three or four deer? That's aft to when I started bow hunting. Because I couldn't afford elk tags or twenty bucks, so a deer tag was I think nine fifty or ten fifty, so I could get a blacktail deer tag, but the elk tags were too much, So I just deer hunt and I killed I killed a buck every year. Did you what was the what was the first ball? You were shooting? A Golden Eagles super Hawk turbocam from He didn't come in on re curves and stuff. No, Bohner's Discount warehouse. Yeah. Have you ever thought about tipping back into traditional archery? Um? No, I mean I messed around with him, but Roy actually he went back. He had target panic so bad with his compound. Is that the best hunter I've ever been around, best woodman's woodsman I've ever been around. But he had target panics so bad. He went to recurve and he he said he didn't think it was that much of a disadvantage. He said, it seemed it's easier in some ways because it's like more instinct and you don't have to think, you don't have to level up and full drop, you know, anchor the same every time, and you know, kiss her button and all this. You just shoot and he killed never nothing, never changed. His success stayed exactly the same. He killed no matter what. And I'd always say he could if you said, hey, you got to use this to go kill, you know. He moved to Alaska about uh in ninety three, I think, And I said he could go and get it done with whatever you told him the weapon was. You're holding the pen, yeah, holding the pin. Yeah, I mean it wouldn't matter. He's just would figure out a way to get it done. Uh, he's the guy that he he fell she putting what was the what were the circumstances there? Um, So there's this mountain range well right out of was Sola, which is where he lived. His wife still lives. But you can see Pioneer Peak and it's so that's the that's the tag. It's it's it's a cluting a lake tag. And I put in four in two thousand and eight because as a non resident, if you go for the late hunt, which is October one to the tenth, it's a terrible hunt. But sheep hunting, I've never I've never sheep hunted. So he said, hey, put it for this tag you have chance of getting is a nonresident. So I put in one time, got it and he goes, it's it's hard, it's dangerous, it's you don't know what the weather is gonna be. We might still have the guiding requirement though. Yeah, he was. He got signed off. He was an assistant guide and he could guide me you could hang out to go. So we went on that hunt two thousand and eight and I killed a ram and the hunt says any sheep, and uh so I killed just like probably a four and a half year old ram. Wasn't anything. It's my first sheep. So that is the same hunt he drew into and he'd killed nine dollar sheep with his boo. So he but he killed rams up there too. He knew. He was like, I said, we've we've done that hunt. We've been in country like that a lot. But he was up there sheep hunting and um just had done the stock. He actually missed this ram and he was going to head back up the hill to find a camp on spot. A little flash bought up maybe towards the top of the ridge, and something happened. A rock rolled or he stepped back and fell off and seven feet and died. Man. So then all of a sudden, you just get a call one day his we changed subject. Yeah, No, I was in Colorado deer hunting and uh my wife called m and said, uh, you know, Roy had an accident, called Jill. So I said, okay, So I called jail and I said, hey, what's up? And she just said Roy's not coming home. He fell mm hm oh man. So yeah, um, but so it's hard just because uh it's it's hard every time I talked about it. But um, we came up together high school, same you know, kids in our class. He was like making this name for himself and Alaska just just just a stud and it's finally all happening, and I got you and it was I imagine too. Man. The fact that it was like that, what it was like hunting that held you guys together, and then to have that be the thing that ends up taking his life is just a whole different experience, right. Yeah. I mean, we knew what we love to do. We always wanted the biggest adventure. We knew there's risks, just we knew that was always it was always there. But we loved going for the biggest, most epic trips, the biggest the brown bear, grizzly bear, doll sheep. Uh, we love Kodiak, Prince of Wales, we killed you know, we did Big black Bear there all the time. We just loved I mean I I hunted Alaska probably thirty times with them because we just loved that adventure. And uh, you know, We're not dumb. We know that ship happens. People die all the time, especially up there, and that I know just from I read a lot and uh mostly adventure and hunting. But anybody who's spends a lot of time in the mountains, a lot of them die. I mean in that that country, a lot of them die. You can't have big adventure and no risk. Yeah, so uh yeah, it was just hard because Roy was he was he was the only one. You know, people talk about haters and you know, you kill I kill a spike bowl and people are saying, oh I heard he shot at the rifle, I kill a five point Oh I heard he shot at the crossbow. Roy is the only one who always believed in me. So when he died, I was like, fuck sucked. Mm hmm. Was he on your mind a lot working on this book, Yeah, because it gets because it has a lot of personal history in it. Yeah. I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be talking to you if it wasn't for Roy. He's starting with Bohun. When you're going for like the biggest adventure or the biggest what what do you hope to like experience in that experience, like what is what is that? What are you reaching for in that um challenge? Just that being on the edge and you don't know, you don't know what's gonna happen. And you know his last year we hunted together. We went out and in this one area I went up in July. Actually, you can start killing brown bear and uh in this area there's so many brown bear there hammering the moose and you can kill two brown bear and uh three black bear. And so I'm like Roy was working for Jonah Stewart at that time. Called Jonah and I said can I said, did I do I read this right? You can kill two brown bear? He's like, yeah, I said, in three black bear? He said yeah. I said, well, I said, can I can I get to brown bear? What do I have to pay to get too? Brown bear opportunities? And so we went up there and it's like the first one stalked in and uh, this this boar was kind of in the it's along the water there. So he was laying down and I got in un soil creek bed. The window was good and I got forty yards from him and he got up and he's looking at me and that's what we live for. Forty yards and what's gonna what are you gonna do? Can you make that shot? So I pulled back, you know, frontal just pin wheeled him. Couldn't have been it was maybe an inch to the right, but smoked him. That's what we live for. Do you do you think that's something like you always had in you or did you find that through the craving for that through hunting? Um, I don't know if you really know you have it, if you have it until you actually started getting those challenges. So, like I said, I didn't have I was hunting blacktailed deer, you know. I walked from my house and up into the Logan country and then then we started. We went to the Three Sisters Wilderness and couldn't find Elk, and so I said, hey, I think my my uncle had been to the Eagle Cap Wilderns before, which is over against largest wilderness, me and Rover and there, And I said, I think my uncle had been there before. They may be hunted back in there. And we couldn't find Elk and the Three Sisters which is Cascades, and so I called him and I said, I said, hey, do you know any place to elk hunt in the Eagle Cap and he said, uh, he said, yeah, he goes. You go to this up this road the firewatch tower. You go up there's this tree and I was just like, I didn't know. So we get up there and we're just like what this is a thirty thirty miles by sixty mile wilderness and we're looked up here and by this tree and we're just like so, no, not a map one, but anyway that so then we're like, well, that got to start to start in the wilderness. So then it's like, so we looked at the map of the wilderness, like how can we get as far away from anybody as possible? So you go to the middle of wilderness boom right there. And so that's where we wanted to go, the biggest adventure in our little I mean, that was an eight hour drive for us. We didn't have gas money where I had to sell a thirty thirty. His grandpa gave him to get gas money to go over there. But we were living and that so at that time that was it. And then it was like, well he moved to Alaska and it's like cool, Now what could we do? Oh, Kody akaio and that's that's pretty crazy. Get dropped off on Kodiak in November and hunt deer and how much this you know, deer tax on d sixty eight bucks and we could do this and that. So then it just progresses and then all of a sudden, you're hunting brown bear. So I don't know if it's I don't know if it was in me. It took took time to find out. How did you, uh, what was your initial introduction to like the endurance world, I mean not not haunting based stuff, but like just competitive right. I didn't really have any I mean, I you know, I did. I do the ten k back home the Beauty to beaut and Eugene every fourth of July. And so then I did a half marathon out in Coburg, which is the town outside of Eugene, and uh, that seemed like a long thirteen point one miles and I was like, God, I wonder if I could do a marathon. So on two thousand two or three, I ran in along the Columbia River there Hood the Dallas to Hood River was the Gorge Marathon, and I got third and I'm like, well, you know, the Eagle Cap is thirty miles. By sixty miles, Roy had moved to Alaska, so I was hunting by myself. If I could talk somebody and to go, and they would go one time and they're like this sucks, I'm not going back, so I would be by myself. But I'm like, man, if I could run, if I can run twenty six miles, I can get out of the wilderness and a couple of hours if I have to. So then that huge wilderness didn't seem that big, and then that progress progressed up. My first fifty k in two thousand five, and I was running this fifty k and I'm like, god, this is crazy it. You know, it's thirty miles in the mountains and nobody ever does this. And I see these runners coming up coming there. I'm getting about a mile from the finish. They're running back towards me. And I get to the finish, I'm exhausted, you know, hurt. And I said, I said, I saw these guys, these four guys running back back up the trail. And they said, oh yeah, they're getting ready for Western States. And I said, what's the Western States? And they go the Western States one, and I said, A hundred miles. I said, they go, yeah, they're running the course twice today to prepare And I'm like what. So I thought that I had done the most craziest thing ever and their training doing it twice. So I'm like this Western States. So I did the Big Horn one on my first hundred in in um In, Wyoming. It's a hard hundred. It took me twenty nine hours, is terrible. The next year I did the Western States, the race they're preparing for, and there the goal was let's get let's break twenty four hours, you get the silver buckle. So I did it in one, so I got my buckle. So that was It's kind of just like hunting is like an evolution. And then I was like, I want to narrow one on that race, the one. So you spent how many hours? Which one Western? The one? If you break twenty four one and out of those this might seem like a dumpt question, but out of those hours, how many of those hours are you actually on the move? Like did you stop at all? So you never you never stopped and took like a twenty minute power nap? No, no, I mean you. So now I've done a two hundred and thirty eight mile race, and even in those um the best of the best two nights is hard that third night people the best of the best can go two nights and finish. Took me for that race took me seventy eight hours and I slept two hours. So you want you want to go through with no sleep. You want to always move. Your body will reset in a you know a girl who I trained with who's one of the best of the world, she's done this before, and I did this in that race. But you'll like doze off for a minute. Your body resets. It's almost like a control of the lete for your computer. And you wait. Like I was with my brother and I was like, he was pacing me, and I nodded off and I came back and I was like, I said, you know, how long was I sleep? He's like a minute. I'm like, let's go. And so it's weird. And this was while you're running, no stopped, stopped, And I was like, you're saying he was pacing you, and so almost sounded yeah, that's got some version of that has to happen. You sort of like lose your lucidity now and then for a minute. Yeah, probably. I mean, if we're there, let's talk about hallucinations when you're going nothing. Ever, Courtney does Courtney who had trained was she does? She has a T shirt that she made with a leopard in a hammock because she was running and saw this leopard in a hammock. But yeah, so yeah, anyway, so you go, so you go that long without but but when you if you take that one minute, thing in your body resets. Why not why not capitalize on that and do a bunch of resets? Or is that not how it works? Some It doesn't always work. It doesn't always work. I mean, um, if you can get like, if you can get an hour, say after that second night, that's a that's a lot. An hour would be a lot. Sometimes though, you you pop right back and you're like, man, it seemed like I would sleep for hours, but you weren't. You can't do that for you know, you're like tricking your body. But pretty soon your body is like, okay, we're done. What's your version of recovering from those races? Like do you go home and milkshake and lay on the couch or takes it takes a wy for your body? I mean it takes You're not I mean for a month for sure, I can tell my legs or but do you are you continuing to run afterwards or do you give yourself a period of time off? Yeah, I'd say a few days after two. Yeah does that tear your feet up? Yeah? You're all bloody and yeah, definitely. Bears of running shoes you go through in a year, I don't know. I don't know what what shoe do you wear from one of those? Um well, I've been sponsored by under Armor up until this year, so I've been wearing under Armor. In this last race, I wore new Balance. So but so what I found out is my feet don't get torn up what they used to because now that a secret is you like put vastly in all over your toes and then put your socks on, and then put your shoe on, and what what your toes rubbing together and getting dirt and grime and stuff in there. That's just causing blisters for the most part. So that I like, I just did that marathon, which is no big deal. But I mean I didn't have one spot on my feet, you know, so in the last hundred I did, I didn't really have anything, because I did that, So they gotta just be like shoe leather by now, right. Yeah, I mean I trained with no socks, just running shoes and just too tough and on my feet. Yeah. So but you're see your feet still are pretty sensitive and they're taking you know, in a marathon it's steps, so you know, it's they're getting pounded. Do you have anything that's like starting to wear out as far as knees and ankles or like, I don't put any energy into that. Yeah, I mean I feel it takes me a little bit too your warmed up. But yeah, I mean relatively speaking. You know, I got I got some I'm banged up a little bit, but I mean I can still run. Chronic pain, um, not right now, but but running pains in the mind, Yeah, I know. I don't. You've avoided like major injury and stuff like that. Yeah. Never, So, I mean part of it, I'm sure it's genetic. I have good, good joints. Um. I eat. You know, I don't drink um, haven't drank for a while. Uh. I eat pretty clean wild game. Um. So I you know, other than the sleep, I do a lot of I do the hot tub, cold tub. I do massage, So I mean, my body is pretty good, pretty fit. You know, one thing I wonder when I look at the race and you do in the endurance stuff, is when you um, I guess it might be hard to answer it because you've been doing it so long, But when you look at just like the nuts and bolts hunting stuff right like you're just hunting, do you feel that that that that the endurance world translates in any kind of direct way? So do you start thinking of distances just very differently, and like getting up at a certain time to get into a certain place, you just started thinking of like it's not an issue, not distances, but but challenges. I don't I used to have the same challenge as everybody else. I like, I gotta get all the way up over this ridge. When you've done two hundred miles, You're not worth a ridge is no big deal, you know what I mean. So it's like it's just like you look at things differently. So when you look at things differently, you internalize them differently. So if you get up over the ridge and a lot of times, you know your nervous system can only stand so much stimulus, So you think about this ridge and climbing up that's kind of you're making your nervous system fire, like, oh my god, I gotta do this, you know, body language type stuff. And so by the time you get over there, maybe you work in. Maybe it's the end of the day, maybe you've had haven't had enough calories in your nervous systems and thinking about all this challenge and you've gotta get back to the truck. So you're thinking about that, and then you get that opportunity, you can't be at your best. To me, I don't put any energy into getting over the ridge, worried about getting back nothing. So when I my nervous system isn't getting taxed. It's all dedicated to making the perfect shot when that happens. When you say your nervous system, just mean your mental state. Yeah, it's like, so it's your body. Um, I don't. I think like athletes, that's why they try to stay so calm, like before the Olympics or a fighter, you know, before a fight, because just being wound up, you're not at your best because you're nervous system can only operate optimally for a certain amount of time, and then then you get tired. So it's say, for example, like in an endurance race, if you don't have sunglasses on and your squinting at the at the end of a long run, that can make a difference wear on you. You want to have all you want to have sunscreen, you wanna have sunglasses. You want to be as comfortable and relaxed as possible, because then you put more energy into whatever endeavor you're doing. Hunting is no different. So if I'm not thinking about all these distractions and challenges, all my energy and and focuses on what I'm there to do is just kill. Yeah. So it's maybe I'm not explaining it right, but I mean you're explaining it perfectly well. Like your your mind can think your body into stress and then you have physical signs that stress that take energy. Yeah yeah, physical it's like impediments, you know. And it's uh, yeah, so you're not What I always say to is like, if the hunt on that hunt at that time is the hardest thing you've done, there's no way you could expect to be at your best. That can't be the hardest. That's the hardest thing you've done. There's no way you're gonna build. You might make the shot you probably won't, you know, go ahead. I was gonna say. That's what got me into starting to actually run more and more consecutive days, because I realized that even though I was getting great running shape, I'm like, when I go on a lot of times, it's like a one week backcountry al and that's gonna be my Cavell hunt most likely, like the one hunt I really want to do, just live it out of the backpack and go bow hunting. But that's seven days in a row of going ridge after ridge after ridge after ridge and on. And so I started thinking like, well, I gotta train that way too, And so I started like, Okay, you might not do ten miles every day, but I should like at least go every day so that my body is just like when it gets there, it's like, oh yeah, this isn't a big deal to just My goal is always like I just want to stroll the mountains comfortably for many days in a row, you know. And if I feel like, if I can get to the end of the week and be like, ah, I still feel like I could go another day, then I did. I probably did well. And I didn't like like you're saying, like be halfway through, just like, oh my god, another ridge. Most people are give a good effort the first day or two, and then it's like, to get the wind right, you should go all the way around the top. They get here and they're like, that's probably good enough. The winds kind of cording, but it's gonna go over. So you kind of take these little shortcuts because you're just because you're tired, just because you're like, I don't even if you're not admitting to yourself you're tired, you're looking for shortcuts. So to me, I'm like, I need to get all the way to the backside of the ridge and come all the way to the top. That's just how you have to do it. I don't. It's not it doesn't even do any good to think about some other shortcut. So and really, on a long hunt, the way I look at it is by day ten and I've killed bowls on nine and you know, way way deep into the hunt. Um, you should be better than you were on day one because you're more in tune with mounts. You're a little should be a little tougher because you're like, it's hard to be tough all the time in the regular world. We get have you can get take a drink whenever you want. In the mountains, you're like, should I'm out of water? I gotta whatever? So um, But by day ten you should be tougher. You should know the an most should know the train. You should know kind of have this thing patterned and then so you have more experience in that setting of when you're hunting, and you should be so you should be better than you were on day one instead of worse. You know, if you go in and you're physically you're still with all those other factors, you should be better. Do you think that everybody has the capability to like, uh, you know, to improve their mental state somewhat? Or do you find people that just are never gonna learn to deal with these these like stressors or like the nervous system override. I know, I think I think people are capable of a lot more than what they think. I think they they they give up mentally. Their body doesn't need to give up, so if they could. You know, what I've learned in training with these people, you know, like Courting or these Olympians, is that the body and even what I've done in my training, even though I'm not at that level, but the day after day after day. What I say is your body gives that you ask of it. If you don't, if you don't ask much, it's not going to give you much if you ask a lot, or to give you a lot. So with that comes confidence, and I think, yeah, it everybody is capable of I'm not gonna say greatness, but man, when you're talking hunting, they're capable of doing some. You're capably getting it done on a hunt, for sure, like more than you might think you can. When you're talking about that nervous like you you're you're talking about the nervous system. Um. That's a thing that I struggle with, uh as I find that super high wind, cold temperatures, you know, when it gets like you know, blow tan or blow zero, becomes harder to concentrate. Problems seem bigger problems, things that you wouldn't normally think of, seems like a big deal. Setting your tent up all of a sudden seems like yeah, because like everything requires a bunch of thought, you know, and I've often pictured like if you just get through that. The thing I'm always trying to tell my kids is like just in certain situations, And I don't put them in like stressful situations, but in situations to them as young people find stressful, try to be like just calm down, like don't get like even like like a bee lands on their drink or something like just don't do that. You don't get jumpy like that, Like people don't want to be around jumpie people like just down. Nobody likes that. But then at the same time, I realized, like I'll even find like cold weather, high winds. I'm breathing differently, Yeah, humans, it's not you're thinking differently, definitely thinking differently. Yeah, yeah. You realize like why why am I it's windy and it's called old? Why am I contracting all my muscles right now? Like this has nothing to do with wind and cold. But I like catch myself realized, you're like your jaw, my teeth are clinched, and I'm actually like flexed, muttering curse words to yourself. That's because you just need more fat on your body. You need the wind of the wind is still the wind, like a high, deafening wind makes me like That's the one thing Steve complains about consistently is wind. He doesn't complain a lot. But wind makes the wind does a thing. My body react to it like it like it like like I said, it makes me like clench my teeth high wind cam. Have you gotten to the point like for me on like a bad country hunt, like tough terrain, it's always easier to like maintain that like positive outlook when there's someone else around, maybe a couple other people around. Like if you gotten to the point where you can just stay tough when you're by yourself or do you still find it easier with other people? No? I mean I like to be by myself definitely, because with somebody else you have to a lot of times you have to motivate them, you have to check out, and it's like this whole thing. Um, And sometimes I don't. I mean, I would prefer to be by myself. Um. Roy had the same mindset. One thing about Roy is that he was always in a good mood. It didn't matter what the situation, was, always confident. And it's like I remember when I killed that dollar sheep with him, I screwed up on the shot. I actually hit the doll sheep in the ankle like front like cut its wrist basically and I get back up to him and I was just like, oh my god, and he goes, uh he was a nice shot. I said, yeah he I said, well, he goes, well it's bleeding. He goes, We'll get it, I know, because it might be a week from now. And so it was always whatever, we're just gonna get it done, is whatever. It didn't matter. It was never we weren't going to get it done. And so that that's hard to find in another person. You know. They say a hunting partner's hard to find than a wife. And it's like having somebody with the same mindset. If you have this mindset, well you'll do whatever is take find somebody that it's hard to do. I went through a lot of people, and um, so if you can have that on your own, then that's simplifies. Yeah, definitely better. That was my one takeaway that really stuck me. Stuck with me from backcountry bow hunting. I probably read that. I think I came to Montan the first time hunt with a buddy and like oh six or oh seven, and I think that's right when that book came out, right, So I must have had a year or two after that, and when I came back at oh nine, and we're doing a fair amount of hunting like that, working out of our backpacks already. So like a lot of stuff in the book I was like familiar with, but the one thing that stuck with me was about hunting partners I can't know. And I was gonna bring the book, but I realized I gave it to that dude. I never got it back, So now I'm stuck here. I can't get my book signed. But like in there somewhere, you're you talk about having to like make decisions about who you're gonna hunt with because some people want to have more of a good time and they're gonna weigh that against like hunting hard and being successful. And I remember thinking about the guy that I was hunting with at that time and be like, you know, he likes that first thing a lot and like like and and nothing wrong with that. If that's your style of hunting, great, But I had that drive at that time where I was like, you know, next time we hunt together, I might just take off for a few days if that's okay, you know, And uh, but yeah, that really that was influential and an impact in me because I was like, you know, you're just gonna have to maybe go hunt by yourself. Yeah, and that's uh. It is like I said, getting some me on the exact same page of you as you is difficult. But if you're at that that because it's like for us, it didn't matter how miserable we were, it had nothing to do. The very first time we were in the Ego Cap Wilderness, I did kill a spike bowl on that hunt, but it got down in the Grand which is down off the mountain. It was eight degrees and we were up there and I had I talked about this in that book, but I had like the sleeping bag with the pheasants on the flannel on the inside line, and I was like, had the these wool pants that were too big for me that I got an Action surplus, you know, a military supply, and I had. I was sleeping with my boots on everything. It's so cold, and I'm like, I go destroy. I said, are you having fun? And he goes, he goes, no, But once we kill something and we get home and we get to tell everybody about this trip, we're gonna have fun. And he goes, We're not always gonna have fun on a hunt, and I was just like that was like the first time because I was my first wilderness. Is like, it's not always gonna be fun, but what's your goal? Is your goal to be comfortable and have fun or is your goal to kill? And so then it was like ever since then, which was you know, early nineties, is like comfort means nothing there to kill? That's it? Have you when was the time when you didn't live up to your own ideal? Right? Like yeah, you kind of haunted by sometimes and you're like, ship man, I didn't do the thing I said people ought to do. Um m hmm. Probably let's see. It would have to be something about you know, discipline, uh about you know I made I've made a lot of mistakes coming up about I'm a lot better now about being disciplined with the shot with my sometimes as an as a new not a new bow hunter because I've and doing it for thirty seven years now, so it's been a while since I've been a new bow hunter. But you take the the first decent shot instead of high percentage shot, you know what I mean. It's like when when I first hunt, it was gonna be like I might I don't know if I'm gonna get how many shots I'm gonna get? This might be the best I get. And so just being disciplined and waiting, you know, for ELK, it's pretty I'm I'm hardly ever it's quartering away or broadside, I'm hardly ever forcing stuff. I just after I say this, I just forced one on on my Arizona Hut last year and killed the bull. But it's it's like being disciplined when you've been thinking about this thing for maybe your whole life. It's if it's like your tag words, you know, five tags and you get to hunt the buffer zone. So you've been probably thinking about this for a long time and then that that crunch time is there. Being disciplined right then is very difficult and I've let myself down. Um so you're talking about by taking shots, not by not taking shots. Taking shots, I'm always always too aggressive um or air on the two aggressive side as opposed to too passive. So it's just forcing shots. Yeah, so I've I'm a looted. I mean last bowl I missed two thousand nine. So it's like I'm pretty pretty disciplined on the shot. Wow, that's impressive. I have missed one since then yeah, that's really counting. That's counting your shots and trying to you know, it's uh, yeah, I mean I have had to have some follow up shots more than one arrows. But yeah, do you uh and describe your book to people? Is it more do you picture it more like um? Do you picture it more like people would read it to inform how they live their life? Or do you picture people reading it just to hear like a good story about an American life? You know? Oh no, no it's not. It's hopefully to help people to be because so if you look at it's like, you know, divorced parents, My dad was an alcoholic. I stepped out as an alcoholic. Um uh, moved out or lived on my own when I seventeen, no expectations. So it's just like you can it doesn't matter, none of that ship matters, It doesn't matter, none of them. Everybody has these challenges. It's just how you overcome and how you set yourself up, um or how you look at your perspective. It's like and so I hope that my story will help people like dream big, you know, achieve more type you know's I had that in that old back country book and it's true. It's just like I don't know, I don't I don't want people to play it safe. I want people to Uh no, you know this is this is a circumstance I'm in now. That doesn't mean that's gonna affect where I'm going. So that's hopefully it does that. M hm. I mean I appreciate you guys having me here and getting this opportunity. I mean, uh, we were trying to work on this years ago and never happened. Rihanna helped me make this happen this time. And um, so I I you know, I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan of meat. Eat what you've built here, your guys rolling all this. Um you coming up as a from Michigan, coming out west and and making your market's it's inspiring to me. So I'm I'm honored to be here. I appreciate And uh, I think that doing a book is something to celebrate. So I'm glad you're here for that rather than something else. And um, you did the audio version. Yeah, it's terrible. I heard a snippet that that you didn't like that process so hard. God, I did not realize how hard that is going to be I didn't know read. You know, there's another thing. You're going into a room and read the damn book. Yeah, and God have an energy. And you know I didn't. I didn't realize how many words I skip when I read, you know, oh, you know, like when you're actually reading something you're not reading like and I'm like, they said, yeah, back on the next that line, whatever you missed whatever word, And I'm like, what I didn't. I didn't know I've missed skip over words? You know what they call that? Because by I have we have a young boy who's learning to read. Those are memory words. Oh really, and it was so funny, is uh he as assigned memory words. It's funny because you'll see these words that like everybody knows, like oh and yeah, but to have him encounter it and have to every time my kid is the same. I'm glad that you don't even you don't even need to say it, just it's and why are you read? Discovering and all the time and just never mind network. But is that is that like translating you speed reading? Like when you know when people read to themselves, like being able to speed read and then having to verbalize the brain yeah, yeah, because I read fast. To myself, I read fast. I can get through a book very quickly. But reading it, I was just like, oh my god, was there ever the option for someone else to do the reading? I can't do it. It's never as good, it's never as good. Just it's just horrible. Man. So you insisted on doing it? Yeah? Did they ask you to do it? Um? I just said I was going to do it. Yeah. I just said because I just know, like with Goggins, Um, he had somebody else. He did like this in between the chapters type thing, but he had somebody else read it, and hearing somebody else, I would love to have heard him say what he was, you know, what he's going through. But so, I mean at that time, and I've listened to other books too, I think trying to think who's who else is? But it's always better when the author does it. I think. Yeah, but the finished product, and you're selling it real strong to listeners with the finished product's cool, right, I mean you're happy with it? The audio? Oh yeah, I guess. I mean it's cool because because Joe does a forward and Goggins does what's called the afterword, So that's cool that Joe read is forward. Yeah he did on the audio. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he killed it. Well it's great. Yeah, he's so good at that stuff. But he's so you know is you know, he's very supportive of his friends and just for him. You know, I mean, I said, I go, you doing the forward probably just on the advance probably made me two dollars. I mean, there's like, oh well Joe, Joe Rogan is gonna read the forward. They're like, oh yeah, okay, well what can you do two bucks for us? I saw you had a six book deal or something, right, don't don't you have to pump out some more book? Yeah, we had a big We had a big you know, it seems like more we we have a lot, like we have a lot of books lined up. Um, all those books come along there, bro, I was gonna say, we asked that question. Look over at we did that. We got a book. We got a um we got like an activity book for kids we're doing that's like a book about raising outdoor kids. We got activity book for kids are doing. We got kind of like a we're gonna we haven't really got rolling on it, but we're gonna do a sort of like um Atlas of the American outdoorsman like ship you ought to go look at that's gonna yeah, and it's like everywhere what I want to do one part, If I want to have everywhere every mountain man died and got malled by a bear, we got shot, you won't have to travel far for some of those, so you can go and be like, to the best of our knowledge, if you want to stand where Hugh Glass got mauled by a grizzly, I'd go stand right about here. So um and then we got an outdoor cooking cookbook. Yah. He's been working on that with us too, mostly Brodie again. Yeah, that's good. But now I like man. I like books, Man, I like them a lot. Uh So this obviously everywhere everywhere books are sold in the audio book is ere you go to listen on books. So if you go on your phone, assuming you gotta help, you get a lot of you gotta who's in Here's got to Android. If you got an iPhone, right, you just go to the native books app. It's orange, looks like a book, click that type in endor pop should I guess? So? Yeah? Trust me? Okay, I know the audio books selling a lot more than it's like the audio book is. They're pretty happy with how how good it's selling already. That's great. That's great man. So again everywhere books are sold audio version print versions kind of. It's it's a very attractive large format print version. It's got a tone of photographs in it. Um, you know, I'd recommend this one over the audio. I don't know. It's it's like like I said, it's a beautifully done large somewhat large format book. Uh. Endure How to Work Hard, outlast, and Keep Hammering by Cameron Haynes, Forward by Joe Rogan, available now. Um, if you wish you could run farther or shoot straighter, Yeah, this book is for you. And and who of us does that not apply to? So appreciate you. Coming on, Oh, everybody, stay tuned. Uh, Cam's gonna join us for Cam's gonna join us for a round of trivia. We gotta go find trivia our trivia man Spencer new Heart And just check on your next the next thing that pops up on the download list and you'll hear media or trivia game on Suckers. Thanks can Eve