00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast, you can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor where you stand with on X. Okay, we're here with Dr Paul Saladino in the first and we'm to top about that. I get that right, You got it? Man? Um? Why why are we tell people what we're having in pillform right now? So my my hope was that I would get everybody a little bit buzzed on liver pills before we got started on this podcast. So these are desiccated organs. The first uh sampling, it's like a tasting, like you go to a wine bar, a beer house. You've got a sampling, a tasting. So I brought two different vintages today. We've got the bone marrow and liver pills. Steve is over here sniffing them, smelling mind eating them. I have twelve to eat, twelve to eat. So the first vintage is bone marrow and liver from grass fed, grass finished cattle raised in New Zealand on regenerative farms. And the second vintage is beef organs, which consists of heart, liver, kidney, spleen, and pancreas from similarly raised cattle in New Zealand. And these are super interesting for me because, um, a lot of people don't understand how valuable organs are. I think as a hunter, you guys probably get this. Or if you think about the way that indigenous people and hunter gatherers have eaten animals throughout antiquity, they eat them, nose, the tail, they eat the whole animal right, nothing is wasted, and a lot of the organs are sacred. They're regarded as sacred. This New War tribe in Africa. They're super tall, even the women are like above six ft. They think of liver as too sacred to be touched by human hands. But it's just regard. They've they've realized over generations that if they feed the organs specifically things like liver and spleen and pancreas and heart, their warriors get strong, the young people are fertile, they have healthy babies. It's just by trial and error they've realized, Hey, there are unique nutrients in these organs. And what's so interesting for me about this is the way that we become optimally healthy humans and how much of this we're missing in our diets. So I'm a doctor, I think about nutrition. I think about nutritional adequacy, vitamins, minerals, where we get them. And one of the most striking things that I've encountered in writing this book, the Carnivore Code, we'll talk about it today, is that, Hey, a lot of the nutrients that you find when you're eating animal meat and organs are pretty difficult to find elsewhere in our diets, which really speaks to this evolutionary program, this evolutionary blueprint that humans have to eat animals and in their entirety throughout our whole existence. And so one of the passioning projects that I developed was this company called Heart and Soil to make these descated organ supplements for people who can't access the organs or who don't want to eat the organs. Because if you've ever seen a pancreas, it looks like a little alien. I mean, you can eat it, but a lot of people won't do it. But I still want to be able to get people this good nutrition. It's like my sister's kids, niece and nephew, and my parents and my grandparents. They're probably not gonnaed a pancreas for a spleen, but they'll take these pills. And so everybody in this room is now getting a little bit buzzed on the unique nutrients found in these two rare vintages that I brought when I was When I was a little boy, and you got into an argument about vegetarianism, you'd be like, you can't be a vegetarian because you won't get BE twelve right or vegan or whatever. But then I read that you get enough B twelve off insect contamination in your produce, So like, what is not? But what is it that you need? Uh? I got a thousand questions? No, queen back, hold that question, okay, because I want yan you to to tell you about his special pills. All right, Oh, Steve, want me tell you about how I think it was our first born. We took the cent, love it and had it turned basically into a pill. But yeah, but it was like witchcraft and hate the pills. I didn't I didn't eat. It was kind of like witchcraft more than like health right, Like it was like spiritual metaphysical. It wasn't like good for your health. Well, I think it's kind of I know, I think it was the latter. It was meant to be good for your health. Yeah, it was more like metaphysical in nature. I think it's kind of both. I think that a lot of the stories around the organs came from observed health benefits. People think, oh, we eat the heart, it makes me strong, and that's interesting because there's extra coins. I'm key ten and heart. So I think the question you were going to ask was what are the unique nutrients and animal foods or what are they? What do you because I know about B twelve right best. Everybody knows that one, right, but the list is really really long. This is so fascinating. So one of the interesting ideas that I've come across in this this sort of this realm of carnivore and animal based diets is that if you look at plants and you look at what we can get nutritionally from plants, there are no nutrients and plants. And this is gonna sound crazy, but it's true. There are no nutrients and plants that we cannot get from animals if we eat them. Nose to tail, meaning if we eat yeah, but the reverse is not true. There are so many unique nutrients and animal foods eating nose to tail that you cannot get from plants. And BE twelve, which is a molecule called kobol amen, is just one of them. And it's really a myth that you can get enough BE twelve to have adequate methylation and all these other physiologic processes you need in your body from just animals on your produce. That doesn't happen. You really should eat animal foods, but the list is very long. You guys, sort of creatine creatine, and so it's a molecule that your body makes, but it only makes a small amount, and you get creatine and muscle, meat and liver and things like this, and then carnaentine, coaline, carnesceine, and serene toriine. I can talk about any of these, Vitamin K two. The list is a long. There's probably about nine to ten unique nutrients just that we know about that we need to be optimal humans, and there's medical studies on all of them showing this has this benefit, this has this benefit, and we only get them from eating animal organs and meat. So a question that will ask people is and this is just a question that a doctor would ask somebody because it's a nerdy question. Where do you get your ribe of flavan? Man? I don't know. I think it's been special k don't they advertise? Yeah, I was gonna say something Breakfast Cereals something. There's a breakfast cereal company that started to introduced Americans to the idea of rival flavor. I don't know what it is, but I accepted that I need it. Right, well, you definitely need it. Rabit flav is vitamin B two and if we get it in a synthetic form, it's two different molecules. This gets a little a little complex. I don't want to get too in the weeds here, but there are a lot of the molecules. A lot of these vitamins have like mirror images when we synthesize them, but in nature they only exist is one form. It kind of look. They're called a nanti umors, or these mirror images that look like your hands. You know, they're not the same image, but there there are a mirror image, but you can't overlay them right, So there's a they have what's called chirality. They're in antiums, and when you synthesize vitamins like riva flavor in the lab, you get both in antiumers, but in the natural world only one of them is occurring, so the riva flavor and you get in liver. Liver and heart are the main place that humans have gotten ribe of flavoran throughout our evolution, and it's a nutrient that's critical for humans to do a process called methylation, for our biochemistry to work right, for us to make sex hormones and your transmitters, and to have energy metabolism. Basically, to feel as good as possible and experience life as richly as we can, we need these little micro nutrients. And when you get the ribe of flavor made in the lab from special K, this other mirror image can block what the actual biological molecules supposed to do. So the takeaway here is that the real form of the vitamin quote unquote, real form that occurs in natural food is always better. It's a concept that's not too far from our intuition, but it's you know, corroborated by science. So yeah, you can get a little ribe of flavor or a little bit of full eight from your special k but the versions you find in real food, especially animal foods, are much more utilized and easily utilized and help us become better individuals. I mean, that's what's so fascinating to me as a doctor. How do we kick the most assess humans? How do we enjoy this life, these short eighty five years that we get on this planet. If you're if you're lucky, right, if you're lucky. Yeah. I start a new guy the other day and his dad all of a sudden died at seventy two. I'm like, I don't like here. I'm at the point where I don't like hearing that kind of stuff. How old are your parents? Well, my mom, my dad died of eighty. My mom's eight. You know, Okay, so your parents have gotten I mean, your dad lived eighty years, your mom has lived a good life. My parents are both seventy. And it's thinking you start to think about mortality when your parents get close to that that age. And I told you I was walking around a graveyard here in bos Montana last night. That's what I do when I come to new towns. Not all time, but I like thinking about that stuff up. And we were looking at grave sites from people from eighteen ninety and you know, even nineteen o six, and you think what happened? What was their life back then like? And mortality is clarifying. But they've sat around talking about how this place got too crowded and went to ship and you know, you think, wow, what was it like? But it also reminds you I'm gonna die one day. And I think it's a doctor who started out as somebody that just liked to be outside. I'm kind of straddling both worlds. I want to live as well as I can. And that's why I went to medical school was that I enjoyed doing things outside. I enjoyed hike in the Pacific Crest Trail. I threw hiked it when I was twenty one years old, and I've been, you know, like a casual mountaineer for a long time. I love backcountry skiing, and I thought, man, this is a beautiful life. I love being outdoors. How do I do this for as long as possible? I want to serve and ski and climb ounce for as long as possible. And that's why I think human health is fascinating. And I think that if we can understand how humans are really programmed to eat. We get to do the those things longer. You guys get to go on expeditions longer and hunt animals in a beautiful way, and you just get to have more fun in life when you get your ribe of flavor. Yeah. I remember reading about um hide hunters like commercial hunters on the Texas planes and how there's there's there's a reference to how they would just eat like the finer cuts on animals and they would get nutrient deficiencies and they had to learn um they had learned he had to eat all this stuff, had to eat the organs, and they would like put bile, they would put bile on meat and do all these things. Just eat as much stuff as they could, and they found that they would get better health than if they were just eating like just eating backstrap exactly like the tongues. And that happens today too. I mean we see that over and over and within the carnivore animal based community, you see that. I work with people who just eat the muscle meat because that's all we're really used to today, and they get full eight deficiency and you get all kinds of things that don't really go that well, but if he knows the tail, you feel really good, which is why a lot of times when people do things like the desiccated liver supplements or eat fresh liver, they get a little buzz. So any minute now the buzz is going to be kicking in for you guys. So you guys are probably pretty good, you're tuned in. But this is I think that what's so interesting is these trappers, these hide hunters, didn't understand what the Native Americans did, right, because the Native Americans knew that they ate these animals, these animal organs. They ate the animal fat, they ate the kidney fat, which we call the suett the perinetric fat. They ate the gall bladder. There's all these stories of kids, and you know, indigenous cultures using the gall bladder like salt because it's salty, and they'll squirt the bile on meat and stuff, and there's valuable nutrients throughout it. But it makes all of us kind of go d it's gross. And so I really think that a lot of the illness that we suffer today as humans, a lot of the chronic disease, a lot of the non optimal living that we do, it is because of these nutrient deficiencies. And so that's why it's cool to get to do this work, because it's so awesome to get an email back from somebody who's who says things like I have so much more energy, my libido is better, I lost weight, I can sleep now, or my autoimmune disease went away. When they make dietary changes, the first of which is probably including these organs in their diet. And we can talk about other dietary changes you might make to get that way. But that's what's really cool, and it's this sort of ancestral wisdom that's been lost. I I gotta hear my first question before we get into details, and no one I want to talk about your diet too. But here's my first question. Is there's a criticism of American society today that we don't agree on, that we no longer agree on the objective realities, right, that there's two versions of truth um or multiple versions of truth. When I think that we have this nostalgic attitude that once upon a time there was only like one version of truth, and I wonder is it infiltrated diet? Like I don't remember when I was a little kid, I don't remember there being like two versions of what healthy. What was healthy? I think everybody knew, like the food pyramid, and they're sort of like, I get it, I'm not gonna do it, but I accept that that's correct. But we've now entered into a spot where you can have a version of reality being that meats really bad for you, and it's healthy to be a vegetarian because meat kills you, and that's by some people accepted like, well, no, that's that's objectively true, that's categorically true. You might choose to eat meat because you don't have self control or you're a glutton or whatever, but we all know that that's right. And then you have another group of people being like, oh no, no no, no, no, fat and meat, it's an objective reality that it's good for you. You might not do that because you have a sugar addiction or you have a problem with animal ethics, but we all know that this is actually true. Like how do people pick? Like who's right? There's only one where you so so right, there there's one, but who's who's is the one? That's why I do what I do, man, That's why I do what I do. I think that truth is truth is what we're after. And I really love you bring this up because I think this is a little bit of an insidious notion that there are multiple versions of truth. There's only one version of truth, and either what I'm saying is right or what the plant based people are saying is right. And that's why I do what I do, because I believe with every fiber of my being that humans have been eating meat throughout our entire evolution. We can get into this and that it's essential for human health. And in the book and the Carnivore Code, I break down why have we been told that meat is not bad, not good for us? Right? I can tell you why it's not good for you? Well, can get like get what else it to? Elvis Presley died and they found a giant burger and his coling like you can't digest. But I always feel like why do I feel? I always wonder why I feel so good when you eat something that's so bad for you, Like I like, I don't even know that I'm dying, Like I feel like I'm great. You feel amazing. And I hear that all the time from people who email me at hard and Soil because you know you can email me there if you have questions. And people say, I feel so good when I eat liver, I get high, I get a little buzz, I I feel these nutrients. And conversely, there's a little bit there's a little bit of selection bias here in terms of who emails me with these stories. People email me and say, hey, doc, my my doctor recommended that I go on a plant based diet because X Y Z and I just feel like garbage. My energy is down and don't feel good. I'm gaining weight, And I go, yeah, it's because you're eating the junk. You're eating survival food. So that's why I do what I do is because I feel like there are objective truths that need to be understood, and so probably for the rest of my life, this will be my life's work, is helping people of all walks of life, of all vocations understand the science that I've seen. And I'll be debating vegans and plant based people forever, forever, trying to help people understand that what they're saying, in my opinion, is so badly mistaken and the reason you're misled. I suppose you understand this, but the reason a lot of people are mislead is because of epidemiology, and we can get into what that is and why the science is not all the same, but there's it's not being sold to us accurately. We're being told things that are based on studies that are servational, they're not actually interventional, real science, and it's very hard for someone that's not a medical doctor or a medical researcher to understand that. So we are being misled. And what's cool is that I think that people will eventually realize what you've realized. If you eat animal meat and organs from well raised animals, you are going to thrive. You're gonna feel good, your kids are gonna be healthy, you're gonna be fertile, you're gonna have a healthy baby. Your depression might get better. I've seen autoimmune disease get better. And you're gonna go, wait a minute, there's so much cognitive ausness here. How can this be bad for me? And I want to be the voice or one of the voices who says it's not bad for you, and that spark comes on in your brain and you go, of course, it's not bad for me. I'm being misled. This is bad information. I don't necessarily believe that there are evil people out there or that they're trying to do harm. I just think that people are not they're not thinking about it properly. In the plant based world, where did it come from? Like where, Like I don't even know what year it was or approximately the all of a sudden that because I grew up thinking, you know what, if I just a broccoli probably every day, all day, maybe an apple, I'd be like the ma is healthiest person in the world, right, Like because the food pyramid? Man? Was it just the food pyramid? That's the earliest thing I remember is you had to like fill in that little pyramid. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I'm guessing. But where is this as a society did it? I think we know it because if you go back to its three generations, it wasn't that way, right, you go back to your parents parents, they understood that meat was valuable, and that meat was something that was more expensive because it was more valuable nutritionally. It's really only in the last seventy years, and you can trace it back to ansel keys in the nineteen sixties. There's a series of epidemiology studies that were done that began to vilify saturated fat, and I was just about to do that. So epidemiology is observational research. It's a survey. They're going to take a thousand or ten thousand people in hand them a survey that says, what did you eat for the last ten years, how much McDonald's, how many steaks, how many French fries, how many of these things? You know, how many things did you eat like this? And then they're gonna look at how healthy those people are. And in Western countries, in Western countries, that's a really important point because I'll contrast it with Eastern countries in a moment. But in Western countries, if you do that epidemiology today and like we've been doing it for the last fifty to sixty years, oftentimes you will see an association, a correlation between people eating red meat and adverse health outcomes. But we know, yeah, we know, correlation does not causation make We can't draw a causative inference from a correlation. And these epidemiology studies, these observational studies, were never meant to do that. They were meant to degenerate a hypothesis, a guess which you then test with interventional studies, And interventional studies with red meat have been done, they're just never talked about on the evening news. We'll get to those. They don't show any problems with meat, But the epidemiology studies show often not all the time, but often in Western countries with Western narratives, that meat is associated with bad outcomes. Now here's the question I have for you, guys. How many times have you you've been to a barbecue and seen someone only eat meat? They just eat a hamburger patty. They don't need anything else with it. There's no catchup, there's no bun, there's no mayonnaise, there's no French fries, there's no cold slaw, there's no potato salad. How many times you ever seen that happen? How many times have you ever seen someone walking to McDonald's and just get a hamburger patty five year old and bought him a hot dog and only gave him the hot dog. You might see that result, right, right, maybe, but he might eat the bun. He might you might wonder later like what happened to the bunks? He's just standing there at the hot I think at the height of atkins. I might have seen it once for a restaurant or someone literally just ate two two hamburger patties on that plate. Right, I've never seen it, but you get my point, right, People who eat meat generally we because we have been told, because you guys have heard this narrative. You just told me. We've been told a narrative throughout our whole life for the last sixty years that red meat is bad for you. So who eats red meat. It's people that are out there and they're ape hangers on the harley with tats and the Hell's Angels or the hot you know, wild hogs. They're doing other rebellious stuff. They're looking at this health advice and going, I don't care about health advice. I'm going to discard that health advice and every other piece of health advice there is. I'm not going to exercise, I'm not gonna get a colonoscope or a mammograham. I'm gonna smoke, I'm gonna ride this motorcycle. I'm not gonna get in the sun. I'm gonna eat French fries with my hamburgers, drink alcohol. And so this is the problem. You can't epidemiology studies cannot differentiate the meat from everything that gets eaten with the meat. And how often do things get eaten with the meat that might also be causing problems. And we can get into this, and I think that the real the real problem, and this will be interesting free listeners here. The real problem is not the meat. It's not the liver, it's not the hamburgers. The real problem is the processed food. And the reason the processed food is bad is because of process vegetable oils. And we can get into that when the time has come. But fast is vegged boils and little leic acid, like this is the real thing driving problems. And if you look at meat, it is so often eaten with vegetable oils, and so many processed foods have these vegetable oils and the linoleic acid, which is a complex word in there. So that's a alto the rabbit hole we have to go down. But the point is people eat a lot of junk food. They had a lot of sugar, they eat a lot of bread, need a lot of alcohol and cigarettes with meat, and epidemiology can't differentiate. But every time you or I or anyone, here's on the news red meat is associated with X. That word is associated. You will never hear on the news red meat causes because if you actually look at the interventional studies, the studies where they actually go to a laboratory or they take people and they do they do an interventional trial. They'll take a hundred people and they're saying, okay, this study has actually been done and I referenced it in the book. They said, okay, we want you to remove we want you to remove two fifty calories from your diet of carbohydrates, and we're gonna have you put in eight ounces of red meat per day. And they follow those people with the control groups. They have two groups. One group has eight ounces of red meat half a pound, pretty substantial amount of red meat in their diet extra per day. The other group has diet as usual and they follow them for eight, six, ten weeks and they look at the end of the study, the group with more red meat is better. They have lower inflammatory markers, lower inflammatory market. I'm getting the buzzs. I can't tell if it's from the liver pills or because of what you're telling because you're so excited about meat. Well, many things given me a buzz and you haven't even gotten into it yet. But um, I recently switched and started cooking. When I fry fish, I fry it and be fat, don't I switched. And here's the thing. Every time I fired that thing up, I feel guilty, but I also feel like, but I just want this. I like it better and it's better. But I feel like something the back of my heads tell me I'm being bad, and I'm always doing like what I think it makes sense. It's like, there's what I think, like as a human being who studies sort of human history, world history, whatever, like I do things that I think makes sense, right, I can just see it, But then I'm always in the back of my head is like that someone told me that it's bad, but it goes against what my general tendency would be. Like if I could take an animal and it has fat on it and nothing's just been out like feeding on grass, it has fat, and I make an oil from that, It's like, I'm like, it's hard for me to picture that. That's worse for me than some ship a chemist made, and it's it's just hard for me to get there. But I'm like, but I have to accept that it's true, because I've been told kind of exactly. And so before nineteen eleven, there was no such thing as vegetable oil. In fact, before eighteen sixty five, So in eighteen sixty five, cotton seed oil was made from cotton seeds. These are not food. Nobody eats cotton seeds. In nineteen eleven, Crisco was founded and they started making vegetable oil. And ever since, between eighteen sixty five and nineteen eleven, human health got a little bit worse. But between nineteen eleven and now we've just absolutely we've tanked. If you look at the rates of diabetes, if you look at the rates of chronic disease, they are skyrocketing in the last hundred years, and they're really going up since the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties. And so vegetable oil was not even a thing. It didn't even exist. Our ancestors, our parents and grandparents really are great grandparents. And like the early eighteen hundreds, all those people who died and they were in that cemetery last night that I saw who died in eighteen eighty, they were not eating vegetable oil. It didn't even exist. They were eating tallow and lard, and the pigs that were making that large we're not fed on corn and soy. They were just fed on you know, things pigs are supposed to eat, but the talents, grasshoppers and carrots, and you know, they were just doing things wild hogs are supposed to eat. And those ancestral animal fats are what are treasured in indigenous cultures. And that's what we see over and over that there was really in the medical literature. There was really no such thing as a heart attack until the realties early nineteen ten, that type of region, and we didn't even think about heart attacks and as American people until the nineteen fifties when Eisenhower, I believe, had his heart attack. So it's just been it's a new invention. It didn't even happen when we were eating animal fats. But people used to in the old days, people like when I was even like my grandparents, you just people used to say that he died of old age. But I think now we just putting names to it. I'm gonna go back to sameing people died of old age. Well, people, no one dies old agian more. Now they die from something very specific that was like diagnosed, right, but you just bucket at all as being Yeah, so I don't know, but I don't know. If people were dying in heart attacks, they're just dying. They get old and died and no one knew why they died. Well, I think that what what we knew of medicine then was different. But even in the early nine hundreds, there was really no no heart attack in the medical literature. People didn't like go and say, oh my god, I have so much pain in my chest. You know, people didn't have that. They would die in ammonia or infections or things like that. But heart attacks are I mean, we we could tell when the heart arteries are blocked, or you could tell if if somebody has like this heart attack and they have this pain in their chest. It just wasn't even something that we recorded until then. And even in the early thirties it was rare. As we were getting more and more medical knowledge and getting a sense of the heart and how it worked, and then over time it just got to be more and more common. And so you're absolutely right, Steve. Vegetable oil is completely synthetic and something humans would have never eaten, and the amount of this fatty acid in there, literally like acid is really giving our bodies this evolutionarily inconsistent, ignally causing massive problems. Not to mention that because of the molecular structure this oil, it oxidizes, it becomes rancid very quickly, and in order for us to eat it and not notice that and not just spit it out because it tastes like garbage, it has to be bleached and deodorized. But you're right, it's made in a lab. If you look at the way vegetable oil is made, there's nothing there's nothing natural. There's nothing, you know, even that that our answers could have ever done with that. Our answers could have never ground a cotton seed or a rape seed, or you know, a soybean into oil. They could have never done these things. Yeah, I was just gonna ask. Yeah, olive oil is different. So when I think about oils, I think about and again I don't want to get too technical, but I think about the linoleic acid content in that oil. Linoleic acid is an omega six polyon saturated fat, and olive oil is about ten lintilic acid and it's mostly mono one saturated fat. Which is oleic acid, which is actually a fat that our body makes, is an eighteen carbon monoe saturated fat called oleic acid. We don't make linoleic acid in the human body. We need a small amount, but we store extra, which means when you're eating foods that are drenched and vegetable oil, you're storing and storing and storing it, and that leads to major problems. So olive oil is isn't isn't much better oil to eat. I think that I'm with Steve. I only eat tallow. I want to eat animal fats because that's going to have more of the nutrients. But olive oil is probably even better than vegetable oil. But if you're gonna cook in an oil, you gotta be a little careful. You don't want to eat it too much. But this is the point that a lot of the foods that were told are healthy for us are completely contrived. I mean, kale has the best publicist in the whole world. When did we start thinking that broccoli and kale were healthy? So I just want to go back and complete. I want to go back and completely laughing as we got like I got like a kale pass you wouldn't begin to comprehend in my garden and um, and we were talking about how kale like growing up whatever, you didn't pay attention to it. Well, holy ship, people are high on kale. People like kale. It's kind of good publicist, man. But it doesn't love you back. And we can talk about why. But you were saying something earlier about broccoli, and that narrative is what's been told to all of us. And so there's both the unhealthy user bias, which is all the people who are eating red meat and all this other bad stuff and all the people who are eating vegetables are doing all the healthy stuff. And so you see it over and over in Western cultures. But if you if you look at epidemiology done in Asia, and there's two studies in the book I mentioned with over probably close to three thousand people between both studies. If you look in Asia, the men who eat the most red meat have the lowest rates of heart disease and the women who eat the most red meat have the lowest rates of cancer. Is red meat has read meat good for Asians is good, you know, and and bad for Westerners. No, the narrative is completely different. The narrative because in Asia, red meat is associated with affluence. Was I was thinking this might be That's where it might red meat is affluence, so he eats red meat. The people that are affluent, the people that are gonna actually think about health behaviors, the people that have a higher socio economic status, which allows more care to doctors, which is going to give better health outcomes. So that's the huge thing that we're seeing with epidemiology. It's telling us about a cultural narrative. We can generate a hypothesis and we have to test it, and those tests have been done, but they don't get on the news. And the tests clearly show red meat and organs are not bad for humans, and why would they be. We've been eating them for millions of years. Can you touch on something real quick? I mean you made the point great by wat double background on it where you're talking about the correlation causation thing. Um, I read a great explanation this once for some group was putting out how pet owners live longer, insinuating that, right, go get a pet and you'll live longer. Remember reading like a sort of deconstruction of what that meant about. Well, let's take a look at pet owners in America versus non pet owners in America. There are a lot of things that are sort of in the package of pet owners that they tend to have a home and some amount of expendable income and on and on and on and so yes, I would believe that that's true. I don't think it's owning the pet that is making you live longer. Like, how do you how do you describe that? Like that problem that people run into. There's an amazing website called Spurious Correlations dot com that's this very well, that's what I'm trying to get at. Spurious correlations. Spurious correlations, And I have a graphic, a couple of graphics of this in the book. And you can see this correlation between the divorce rate and Maine and the per capita margarine consumption, and they're very highly correlated. They're extremely highly correlated. Absolutely, it's in the book. Yeah. The idea with maine and and the margarine is they're highly correlated. But are we thinking that if people eat less margine, they're gonna get divorced less? No, it makes no sense. It's just there are things that happen in the world that are correlated that have no actual cause of relationship. I mean, the most hilarious one that's always quoted is the number of movies Nicholas Cage appears in is highly correlated with, Like I think it's something morbid like death, hangings by suicide or something like that. And so you can see it. There's these charts are in that website, so you can and people would say, okay, nicknas Cage movies are causing people. So a lot of people, a lot of people kill themselves. Right, it's a highly correlated fact, but it doesn't mean that they cause the same thing. You have to really break it down. You generate a hypothesis and then you test it. And when you really get to the nitty gritty and you do the test, red meat is not harmful to humans. But we never hear about that, And why would it be? Why would a food And this is the kind of this is the way that I think about this, and I think you guys get this because you think about it the same way. Why would something that has made up the majority of the human diet that is crucial, that caused all these unique nutrients that we were talking about about the beginning of the show. I mean like, you can't get beat twelve without eating meat. You can't get colline and any significant amount without eating meat. You can't be a an optimally functioning human without eating meat. Why would it be bad for us? There's an amazing set of studies where they gave vegetarians creatine. So creatine is this muscle. It's a muscle derived molecule. It's a molecule we find in the muscle in the brain that holds onto a phosphate groups so it can donate. It's a t P which is the energy currency of the body. So we needed to think and run neurons and flex muscles and things like this. When they give extra creatine to vegetarians, they get smarter, They do better on memory and recall tasks and court card sorting tasks. They get smarter because they're creating deficient in their vegan and vegetarian diet. Why would a food that provides us with all of these unique nutrients be bad for us. This makes no sense, and it begins to kind of crystallize when you think about epidemiology. That's why we've been so misled, you know, I think part of where it comes from you'll you'll know is better than I do. But unexplained with using a different example. Um, there's a group called the Wildlife Conservation Society, okay, and they've always been opposed to UM, wildlife trafficking Okay, So particularly trafficking and endangered species have always resisted on a conservation standpoint. They've opposed you know, markets that sell like illicit wildlife materials, okay, tiger hides, you know whatever, panda bear clause. What have you um? When COVID hit, they took a new tact where they're like, see wildlife, we told you wildlife markets are bad. It gave us COVID, but it was like, I know that you believe wildlife markets are bad, but you've always said wildlife markets are bad because it encourages illicit trade and endangered species. You could point out to me that here's another reason, but you can't have it be that the whole reason switched and now we should hate wildlife markets because what you really want is you want wildlife markets to go away because you're trying to protect endangered species. You're now being opportunistic by attaching your argument to COVID transmission. And I think that a big Like much of the anti I think much of the anti meat thing is they're saying, I don't want people to be mean to animals. I don't want that would be animal exploitation. Um, that's only gonna fly with so many people. My message will resonate with far more people if I could make a health thing. And I think that's like a huge part of this. It's a it's a very big part of it. And I think that a lot of people in the plant based space, I believe are well intentioned. I just think that they're not thinking about the studies properly, and if you ask them, a lot of them do believe morally that the consumption of animals is not a good thing. And those are sticky arguments to get into with people. I think that I try because I yeah, because I've hunted. And I'll just state at a high level that if you look at the regenerative agriculture space, which is grass feeding, grass finishing of cows, and regenerative you know, rotational grazing, that's essentially the way that bison and other ruminants have always lived on the plains, and that that is carbon negative, meaning it's sequesters more carbon into the soil than those animals produce, and that's been the main that's been one argument is sort of the the environmental argument. So to say that owls are killing the planet is completely false because they're not. It's just how they manufacture cow me these days. In some sense, yes, but it's very it's a deep rabbit hole because that also is very misleading as well. And there's been conflation of data from the f A O versus the e p A, And in my book, I have a graphic of e p A data showing that if you look at tail pipes and tailpipe quote unquote, meaning if you look at the amount of methane emissions in carbon dioxide equivalence, those are two different molecules that if you look at the amount of methane and carbon dioxide equivalence that comes out of a cow versus what comes out of a tail pipe in the United States, there's of a car. Those are essentially tailpipe to tailpipe. There is no comparison, no comparison cars and trucks and transportation is of the U S greenhouse gas emissions. In two thousand sixteen, when this ep A data came out and ruminants are one point nine percent, and that includes even the k fos, the clustered animal feeding operations. But I agree with you, you're talking about one one point nine percent. Now, this is u S data from the e p A and its tailpipe tailpipe. What's so misleading is people will show data and plant based circles with from the f a O. And the f a O did a survey and they looked at you worldwide data and they took life cycle analysis of a cow and compared it to tailpipe emissions of a car. Lifecycle analysis means how many carbon dioxide equivalents do we do we use up or do we put in the atmosphere in the whole life cycle of the cow. Well, if we have to put them on a truck and move them somewhere, what about the amount of carbon it takes to run the factory that has to slaughter them. What about the carbon it takes to run the store that sells it to you. You know, that's the life cycle of a cow in terms of carbon dioxide equivalents, and they're comparing that to what comes out of the tailpipe of a car. No one's ever done a life cycle analysis. Oh well, well, they've they've never they've done that, but they've never done lifecycle analysis of what comes out of the end of your car. They've never done lifecycle analysis of petroleum and transportation. So nobody knows. And this is what's so crazy. And I really think that the transportation industries are protecting themselves because they are hugely contributing to this in a big way. You know, if you've how much carbon dioxide equivalent or how much I mean, they're sitting there going it's not us, it's the cows, exactly exactly. And nobody's ever looked at the life cycle of a plane or a train or a car drag and all that metal out of the ground making roads. You know how much it costs to maintain the car, how much it cost to do the part. It's how much it costs over the life cycle of the exactly right. So all we come that nobody's done that. All we can look at is tailpipe to tailpipe. And any PhD students sitting out there looking for a dissertation, you're not gonna get funding. Don't ask the auto industruper funding. Nobody's gonna fund that, you know, because they don't want you to know, so I'd be curious to hear from you guys about your experiences with hunting. But I've haunted a small amount, but I've found it very spiritual, and I don't mean that to sound flipping. So I've haunted deer three seasons now with my bow, and I've gotten a deer twice, and both times that I've killed a deer with my bow, it's been one of the most memorable experiences my life. And the first thing I think of is, holy sh it, I better live a good life because this is a responsibility. This dear gave itself to me. This is an incredibly, incredibly privileged position that I am in to eat the most hutritious food on the planet. And this is a this is a requirement. This is an ask from however you think about the universe and God and the spirituality in our place and all of it. This is this is sort of life asking me to be a good person. What I've realized from the work I read this one the Tom Brown's book. You read The Tracker Tom Brown, You read that, yeah, grandfather, and point in that book says, in order for something to live, something else must die. And it's so true. You know that the lion on the planes doesn't feel bad about killing the antelope. It's what it must do to live. And it's part of the cycle of life. We're all gonna die. I'm gonna be food for worms one day. And if I'm out hiking it's on bobcat or cougar decides to try and take me, I'm gonna fight. But you know, maybe I'm part of the circle of life too, and I'm going to accept that. And so it's the it's the human burden. The human burden is um is that like no other species has any remorse, any even any even compassion for suffering. It's just amazingly and would tell you otherwise to watch predators kill ship man, dude, it just they just don't. I'm not criticizing them. I mean, God bless him, but um, it's not that they're not like I'm going to go in there and make a good, clean kill. You know, it's just not on their mind, man. And it's an interesting thing to think about, but that's the way I imagine it. And so when people, I think, if someone wants to want chooses not to the animals because they don't want to cause suffering. I think that's your choice. You know, that's your moral choice, and you have to be careful about how it's going to affect your own health. And will you come hunting with me or somebody who has more experienced with me and see what it's about and see what the responsibility is like and realize that this is how we do what we do on this earth. I mean, we kind of talked about this at the beginning of the podcast. I what's what I am so passionate about is helping as many people as possible live well, live as fully as possible by getting getting the nutrients into them that are lost, these nose to tail nutrients with hard and soil, and this eating animals knows to tail, understanding that animal foods have been incorrectly vilified. In order for me to do my work in this short life as well as possible, I need to be nourished. I have to have nutrients. So in order for me to carry out the mission that I think is most important, like my responsibility is to nourish this body. And I don't drink alcohol for a lot of the same reasons. I just I want to be a healthy individual. I can do something good. Okay, Yeah, but I think that that's what we do, and we need to nourish ourselves to do the work that we're gonna do, and the nourishment has to come from animals. And I don't think that we should feel bad about that. That's an interesting point you bring up. And I guess I had felt that a little bit but hadn't articulated it. And we had a um the founder of a Black Rifle coffee company was on the show and it was when, um, it was early in the pandemic, and he said something interesting to me where he was talking about, um, everybody was stressed out right, like everybody's stressed out, and we're kind of like everybody's like really analyzing their obligations and and you know, you're like sort of triaging all the things in your life. Because it was a few months ago. Seems like a million years ago now, but like a few months ago, everybody was kind of like, holy shit. And he had made this point of like did he he views his obligations and these concentric circles to build out from him so and and he has this this this view of it that I thought sounded selfish, but once he explained it. It wasn't. He's, like I said, at the center of the concentric circle, wrapped around that is my family, you know. And he said, for me, wrapped around that is my company, the people that rely on this company to living. He and he went on to say that like that's where I take care. I have to take care of the center, because if I don't take care of the center r then the concentric circles out from that aren't in a position to be properly serviced. And it was like interesting to hear someone put it, because, um, the obligation you have to be like with it, to be present, to be healthy, to be like mentally clean, to not be hungover every morning. Right, It's like it's not just you like looking out for yourself. You can imagine it as a way that you're protecting those things that are wrapped around you, because there has to be that like strong core and center. If you don't protect yourself, who does that fall to? Yeah, listens and then and then exactly no one's gonna do it. And I mean, look, we've all got this life to do good work. I mean art. We're all here to do art. We're all here to make our own art, and that for me as a physician, I've realized that in order to make art, you have to be healthy. And I know you guys, we can talk about how to define healthy, but nutrition and nutritional density and nutrients, an absence of inflammation and autoimmunity that allows people to make their art. There's so much beautiful art, and whether it's painted art or singing art or this type of spoken art or writing art like this allows us to do our work. And that's what makes life meaningful. Is to create something beautiful, You've got to be healthy to do it. And that's why I want to do what I do, is to help people make more beautiful art, because God knows we need more beautiful art in this world. And that sounds who but you get it. It's exactly the same thing that we have to take care of ourselves. And for me, when I was hunting, I'll just wrap this thought up and then I'll tell you what I eat. Like I realized, Okay, this is the most nutritous food on the planet. Those those two white tail that I've eaten have been some of the most nourishing food. But I also remembered every single bite, like Okay, I took this life. This is my responsibility to do well and also to be a kind human. And so it's this amazing kind of quote sacrament. It's just remind me to be a good human. And I think that's one of the tragic things about getting your food from a grocery store all the time. And you guys probably get this. I mean, I think that if more people could hunt, we would be a different society. And that's the way it used to be, you know. I mean, think about how many generations ago. It wasn't that long ago when a lot of the food we got was from hunting. And if people just look below the surface, I'm sure that would have reminded them this is I should be gracious for this. This is bounty, this is nutritious food. I'm not gonna waste it. I'm gonna eat all the organs, get all my nutrition, and it's gonna nourish me to do whatever I find meaningful in this life. And that's that's my take as a doctor. So it's cool stuff. I think there is a lot of value in the the mental aspect of it. I mean, you know, it's not all chemistry, too, because when we're eating fish and game that we caught ourselves or hunted ourselves, or even eating things that we grew ourselves. I just like I become aware of it. And otherwise I wouldn't pay any attention to it. I would just be like whatever, you know, it wouldn't be interesting to me. But also it becomes intensely interesting to me, and there's probably and I like, and I pay more attention to it and focus on it more and more concerned about the quality because it, like, it becomes a thing of spiritual mental interest to me, and it heightens it's it heightens my awareness and involvement with it, whereas otherwise it would be just like another blase, boring thing that I wasn't even considerate of, you know. And I think the humans need wild places just like they need nutrients. Every time you take a bite of food that you've grown or gathered or hunted, there's a memory of being in a wild place or being in some outdoors somehow, and that that's nourishing for us too. You think, Oh, man, I think about I think about the camping trip and the hunting trip I went on in January and Junction, Texas, where I where I got that, dear, you know, with my bow, And then I think about the one in Flagstaff, Arizona a few years ago where I got my bow, and I know exactly where it happened, and I know that space, and in order to get those animals with a bow, I had to know that space well. I had to become part of that space, and I had to think where am I in relation to these animals? How do I smell? What time of day is it? And so you get this wilderness experience, and that's also valuable for humans. The whole thing kind of wraps into each other and gives you this such a powerful experience that I think for me has always spoken to the ethical consideration, like, yes, we don't want anything to suffer, and this is such a rich experience, and I would suggest an indispensable, invaluable part of being a human to be interacting with the animals that way, in a respectful way. You really become part of the whole community, don't you. You do You're part of an ecosystem, you know, you become part of an outdoor ecosystem and outdoor community. And I think that, I mean, going to grocery stores is kind of tragic. We all have to do it today, But how cool would it be to get back into that more? And that's what you guys do, and that's why it's so cool, And I want to get back to doing more of that. And I think that it starts with nutrition and then you start getting back into those wild places. And I'm hoping to get to a point in my life real soon where I can do a lot more that now. In the book and the Carnivore Code, I outline five tiers of a carnivore diet. And before I started this, I'll just tell people who are listening my intention in talking about carnivore diets and animal foods is not to convince everybody in the world to stop eating plants. It's really to construct a diet hierarchy in terms of nutritional value and um like the way that these foods make us who we are or allow us to become as optimal as we can be as humans from like a medical, biochemical, nutritional perspective. And so my my thesis with a carnivore diet or an animal based diet which a little is a little more of an inclusive idea, is that kind of like we've been talking about animal foods eaten nose to tail, organs and meat have been at the center of our ancestors existence forever since we were hominids, and that they are the most valuable foods on the planet. And yet again, as we've talked about, they've been vilified for the last seventy years. They should not be vilified. So I think that the first step to doing our art to being as optimal as possible is remembering that animal foods eating nose to tail are the most nutritionally dense and valuable foods on the planet. Like I said earlier, they have nutrients that are not found anywhere else that are very difficult to get. Their magical foods quote unquote, they're just the most nutritional foods in the planet. These are the most important food strusted to get. We should not believe that they are harmful for us. And then beyond that, in the book, I've created a broad strokes perspective on what I believe are more and less toxic plants. So I don't want people to think that they can't eat any plants, or they shouldn't eat any plants. Some people do really well with no plants in their diet. I haven't eaten significant amounts of plant foods and over two years, and I feel pretty darn good. And I'm not combusting with oxidative stress or you know, backed up into ridiculous amounts of constipation. I poop every day. Guys, I know you're all wondering about this with no fiber in my diet. Actually, that's good to hear. So I you know, there's this there's this spectrum of plant toxicity, which plants are more and less toxic. And if people want to include plants in their diet, which are the least toxic parts of plants and the least toxic plants, Yeah, you better explain plant toxicity. Yeah, I mean it's the thing that plants. I mean, as much as you can say a plant intentionally does something, it's like a part of a plant strategy. It is absolutely a part of a plant strategy. And it's it makes sense evolution narily. When you go hunting animals, they're gonna run away from you. They're pretty crafty. They can bite you or kick you, or go are you, or they can just run away. They're flying away, or they're fast, or they're crafty. They they fear better than us or smell better than us. But plants are rooted in the ground. This is not surprising to anyone. But there's been a coevolution between animals and plants for over four and fifty million years, and animals and plants have been in this kind of ongoing warfare, this chemical warfare. Plants have had to evolve defense chemicals to meter how much they get consumed by herbivorous animals or omnivorous animals, or there would be no such thing as ecosystems. If every tree was just made of chocolate or whatever, you know, delicacy a bear or you know, any animal wants to go eat, there would be no plants left on the planet because animals would eat the plants, they would reproduce more, and there would just be more and more animals and less and less plants. So there is this delicate balance, and that delicate balance is really it's it's just it's coordinated, it's orchestrated by these plants chemicals, and we're familiar with some of these. A lot of us know about some plants that are toxic around you know, around Christmas. If you have a point set in your house, you're like, don't let the kids go by the point set. You guys know the point set of plants. Oh they're super toxic. Oh yeah, the super top knew that and forgot toxic. If you think if a kid eats a point set, yeah, they'll they'll they can get really, really sick. And there's a lot of other plants like that. And we were familiar with gluten and lectins messes up a lot of people's guts. I mean, there's a lot of plants out there that are just totally freaking toxic. There are people that have died for eating too much surrell and soral, you know, and um, it's that's because of the amount of oxalates in there. So that's a whole another thing we can go down a rabbit hole with. But there are a lot of plant toxins out there. And the ideas that the roots, the stems, the leaves, and the seeds of plants are plants kind of just saying hey, I'm here and you're there. I'm good, don't mess with me. I won't mess with you. Let's just try and be friends. I'm gonna put some toxins in these foods, these parts of my plant and issuade you from over consuming them. And if you eat a lot of them, you're not gonna feel very good, or you might even die. I might make this fruit every once in a while, and that's gonna be less toxic because I kind of want you to eat that and then poop out my seeds somewhere else where. It has this fertile pile of manure for me to grow. But there's a clear communication here. And so if you look at plants, the seeds of plants, which essentially are seeds, nuts, grains, and legumes, so beans are all seeds, they're all plant babies. That are all plant reproductive efforts to reproduce, to put their generation forward, to put the next generation of DNA beyond them. And these are some of the most highly defended parts of plants. And this won't really be totally foreign to anyone who's heard of things like gluten intolerance or Celiac disease. Well, wheat is a grain and it has a lot of lectins. Gluten is one lectins are these one type of plant defense chemical compound. But if that is other lectins like wheat or magluten in, a lot of things in wheat are not good for humans. It's a plant seed, it's a grain. A lot of other grains are not so good for us, like beans. Beans are excuse me, a lot of other seeds are not so good for us, like beans. And if you eat you ever trying to eat a raw bean, like off the plant. They're trying to be like a kidney bean. You ever seen kidney bean or a lion? They're superbeans. Really, how do you feel? I didn't need enough. I knew that they will mess you up, so I never ate enough to mess super mess you up. So but I read about a kid, a three year old kid who got lost in a soybean field one time, and he'd eat a bunch of soybeans and got sick. And I just ate one to see what it was like. Yeah, so if you eat raw beans, they will they will make you violently ill. And there are hundreds of recorded episodes now of people getting food poisoning from undercook kidney beans. So a lot of the seeds out there are frankly toxic to humans. You know, apple seeds have toxic things in them like arsenic or cyanide, and I should stop eating those. My dad was always like eat the seeds in the core and the apple. Ye, I mean you could eat them, just don't don't shoot them. Don't. I guess I've ever been poisoned. Let me hit you one of that. I think you'll think it is, then you'll appreciate this one. So you're from us with snowshoe hairs, they're they're famously cyclical, and they on these like you know, seven year eight year cycles where their populations explode and in a collapse and exploding collapse, and people used to try to correlate it to all kinds of things, um, sun spots wherever that no one could ever find an explanation. Lead theory on why snowshoe hairs have a cyclical spike is they predominantly will feed on willow um as the willows are getting overgrazed, they'll start putting a ton of energy into toxins, and then the primary food source of the animal actually starts to not be nourishing and kills it. All of a sudden, you trim off this whole population of rabbits. The plants aren't getting grays anymore, they don't put energy into plant toxicity, and eventually this very small amount of rem that rabbits are left are back to eating a healthy food source. And this cycle seems to run in about a seven year cycle. And that's this is after many people postulated many things, but to lead theory on what drives that is there that plant's response to getting eaten by it. And if you look at grazing animals, there are many historical examples of large herds of grazing animals dying and mass when they're cordoned off by fences are made to graze on a small amount of area. If you look at ruminants or grazing animals, they don't eat just one plant. I mean this, this example of the hairs is interesting, but a lot of them will pick a little bit of this one, little bit of that one, a little bit of that one, because they realize every plant has a toxin in it and if they get too much of this toxin, they're gonna get sick. But they can get a little bit of this tox and a little bit of that tox, and a little bit of that tox and a little bit of that toxin. Right, So this is these are herbivorous animals. But the thesis that I example advanced or you know, the kind of the hypothesis. What I'm saying in the carnivore code with this idea is, look, eating animal foods made us human. And we can talk about why I think that way. If you look at the evolution of the human brain, it exploded in size, not literally but figure early in the last two million years, and that correlates very strongly with the advent of hunting. There were these auschuli and these bifacial tools cut marks on bones, mass graves, and you can date, you know how old these bones and these animals are that have cut marks and stuff. It looks like humans started hunting about two million years ago. Our brain was about five hundred ccs and it had been about five ccs for the previous ninety million years. And you know, you go up and in the last and the next two million years, it grows from five hundred ccs TOCs it triples in size, which is a massive energetic input for humans. We had to change all sorts of things in our gut, and that was probably because there were more calories and there were these unique nutrients and animal foods nias and riba flavor, coline, carnatine creatine that our brains needed to grow and something. When we had those boom. We can grow a bigger brain, and that gives us more survival advantage. We get a near cortex, We can plan hunting with our with our tribe, we can evade predators better. We don't have claws and towns anymore, but we can fashion spears and nest. The human race goes on, and so a food that lies at the center of our evolution is what we need to grow and that really made us who we are. That's a statement I make in the book that eating animals nos the tail made us human. It made us human, and I think that because of that, and there's good evidence for this, looking at stable isotopes of you know, fossilized remains of teeth that are I think at least a million years old, which is crazy to think about that, and even more recent hunter gatherers um from fifty thousand years ago. You can look at uh stabilized stope analysis of co living Neanderthal and Homo sapiens in northern Europe and see the majority of their protein was coming from animals. And you can look at this these barrium and caesium and nitrogen and carbon and sulfur isotopes, and say, man, they were eating a lot of animals. It looks like they were eating like more animals than known carnivores like hyenas. So the thesis in a lot of anthropology circles is, hey, we were essentially high level quote carnivores. We weren't eating all animals, but we were eating the majority of our diet as animals when we could get them. So I'm they think that our blueprint is humans is in stark contrast what we've been told today. It's not kale that's the superfood. It's the animal foods that are the superfoods. And that you see this indigenous cultures too. They seek out animals preferentially, and they'll eat plants as fallback food, as survival food, but they don't really if they've got a big kill, they're not gonna be like, hey, we got a whole whole elephants or a whole water buffalo. Well, let's just put that aside. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go gather some tubers, you know, I'm gonna go gather some There's some good, some good acorns over here. They're like, no, I'm gonna eat this freaking buffalo. Man. But we're we're adaptable as humans, and we do have the ability to be omnivorous, and I think that we've used that throughout our evolution to during times of scarcity, use plant foods as fallback foods, as survival foods. And this is because plants have toxins. So what have we done. We've learned how to ferment them. And you see this over and over a lot of times when indigenous cultures eat plant foods, they're fermented things like sauer Kraud. This comes from fermented cabbage. A lot of the toxins that are in cabbage, which a lot of the same toxins and kale are degraded when you ferment the cabbage. A lot of beans are fermented in sort of South American cultures. So we've figured out ways. But if you look at the number of ways, the sheer volume of ways that humans have figured out to make plants more edible, it's clearly indicating they are full of toxins. Whether it's cooking or dhauling or it's an interesting point, man, Like the amotta plants we eat you know, the grains and stuff we you don't eat, like you can't eat raw raw. You gotta do to make them medable. You gotta do a lot of stuff. You gotta pressure cook the heck out of the mean. Look at white rice, you know, in Asian cultures, it's a staple, and they figured out, oh, if you take the hull off the rice, it's way less toxic for humans, and we've been told the reverse. So brown rice is more healthy. But brown rice has a lot of arsenic in it, because arsenic is concentrated in the hull of the rice, and a lot of the things that prevent us from absorbing minerals are in the hull of the rice, like phightic acid, things like that. So humans realize, hey, if we take the hull off the rice, we can get the grain out of the middle, and there's not a lot of nutrients in there, but as at least calories to keep me going until tomorrow. But where do we then get our massive micro nutrient doses. We get them from animal foods every day. Okay, this is my long way to answer for what I eat every day and the reason I had that whole sort of explanation was. I wanted people to understand that this is my perspective on it, because when I say this, people are just gonna be like, click off goes the podcast. This guy's a looney been m because you're doing you're doing an extreme version. We should have started with that. Yeah, I mean, so, so I don't need plants, all right, I don't need any plants. I have any any plants in over two years. I did a short experiment for a couple of days where I was wearing a continuous glucost monitor where I included some berries and some squash in my diet just to see what would happen to my glucost. But I've found that I feel better without plants. And the reason I don't need need plants is because I don't. There are no nutrients and plants that I can't get from eating animal. No, the tail and I take when you can play. When you say plants, you're talking like flower, like wheat, No, like like any plants that I'm saying. I mean you're including that. Oh yeah, I'm including like grains and flour and wheat like I don't know to talk about skipping green vegetables. No, all of this every once in a while, I'm on a date with a girl and I don't need plants, and she goes, well, do you eat bread? No, I don't need bread. I don't even plants. Well do you know no, I don't. Just I don't think people understand, like I don't need plant products, like all I eat all I eat his animals and you know I people say, well, then you just eat meat, and how that go over on the date? There? They usually that's usually that of the day or they're like they kind of roll their eyes and they're just not sure what to think. I think they're in shell shock after that. I'm not sure. Yeah, I try to get that to like the second or third date. I don't. I try not to let that. Don't do dinner dates. They're like, you want to go to restaurant. I'm like about that, Let's just go for a walk. Uh, let's just go hiking or something. Um still doesn't go over so good. People think it's a little strange. But I don't eat I don't need plants. I eat only meat. But by meat, I don't just eat meat, right, I eat meat and liver and organs. So I eat two meals a day. I'm interested in time restricted feeding, which is eating. I eat breakfast, and I eat lunch late lunch, and then I don't eat dinner because I want to have some period in the day where I'm not eating, kind of like this intermittent fasting type of idea. And if you look at this, you know, I take my key tones in the morning and I actually have keytnes in my blood every morning, so I'll get into keytosis. Um. But I think is a good thing for humans to kind of cycle in and out of keytosis, but not be in it all the time. I think, when you're done telling us about what you eat and then we should talk a little bit about keto keytosis, well yeah, do that, but but finish this because but I want to I gotta have you in the morning. So I wake up in the morning. So this morning, I eat the same thing pretty much every day. I I've got it works for me, and I mean I'm easy. Um. But again that it's not to say that you have to eat this way. There's a lot of variety. We're building a cookbook around this too. Um. So I eat a lot of so I eat grass fed grass finish meat from our generative farms, a lot of good farms. I want to support that type of agriculture. If I can't eat an animal that I've hunted, i'll eat meat from those farms. And so i'll eat about a pound of meat twice a day, eat a little less than two pounds of meat a day. And it's right now, it's a lot of stew meat. And I make bone broth, so I'll make my own bone broth with knucklebones. It has all the tendons on there. And what I'll do is I'll blanch the meat in bone broth and then add salt to it, and then I'll eat the bone broth and tendons, and i'll get my glycine, the connective tissue, and I'll eat the meat. And then I also eat some organs, and so as many of the fresh organs as I have, i'll eat those. So most days i'll eat liver, heart spleen, pancreas. If i've got thimus, i'll eat it. If I can get testco, i'll eat it. And your butcher's gotta love you, man, because you're buying the stuff they have. No, it's not even at the butcher. It's hard to get I gotta talk to my phone. You're buying all the stuff that winds up in a rendering play. Yeah, yeah, and that's that's important, you know. So I get all the organs I can in a day, a few ounces, and then I'll eat some suet because I'm really interested in this kidney fat um. It's high in a compound called ste i. I just I chew it and I have like a swig of bone broth with it, kind of warm because it sue it's really waxy. It's all either like straight as straight ass. You don't you don't you don't you don't like rendered out in the pan, or like you make a crackling Nope, I just eat it. I just take the suit raw and I eat it with bone broth, and then I'll add some Redman real salt. And then so for the first year and a half, you're okay with salt. Yeah, yeah, totally okay with salt. Before you get to how it felt to tell me about just blanching stew meat, because that to me sounds real tough. It's actually not bad at all, because I don't over blanch it. I mean, I'm just doing that because I find stew meat to be affordable. People will sometimes criticize my diet and say, I can't eat two ReBs a day. That's fifty bucks in me. And I go, well, I eat eight dollars a pound grass fed, grass finished stew meat, and I think it's I think it's great. So you take the bone, Yeah, that's good. Yet had a good question. You take you make bone broth, which I get and then imagined you probably pick all this stuff off the bone, eat all of it. And I actually will chew on the bones too. And then and then you'll take stew meat, slice it, just slice it thin or cut it however, and you'll heat up bone broth to cook the stew meat. And this is how I'm doing it. Now do you ever? Do you ever? Uh? Did you just take animal fat and fry? I don't. Why not? I have in the past, But because I'm a scientist, because I'm a doctor, and I think about lipid peroxides and all this other so you know, I don't know, keep talking about your food. I'm gonna add in my notes lipid peroxide, lipid peroxides, white frying is bad. All right. Now, I'm disappointed. I've done a lot of that. Okay, I think that's probably if you're fine an animal fat, I think you're probably find there's a lot of cultures to do it. But I do experiments myself all the time. I'm trying to optimize because I realized that. I'm like, so you're like against frying stuff an animal fat. I'm not against it. I just like doing the experiments and myself to see because I'm like the pirate man, I'm like the astronaut on the way to the moon. Nobody's ever done this before, and I just want to be like, is this better as it worse. I want to be the person that kind of helps people understand, like this is the ideal, but you can do it this way too. I'm not completely against frying things in animal fat um. I used to do that a lot. I just do a lot of the blanching now, and so I'll put it in the in the bone broth for maybe less than a minute. So I like my meat really raw, and so if you just cook the outs side and then you know the inside is pretty much like blue rare. Yeah, yeah, I'm not over cooking it. And the meat I get from these regenerative farms is pretty darn tender, and I love it. Not into fish. We can talk about fish. We can talk about fish. So I love fish. I just feel like a lot of fish is from sources that are polluted. If I could eat fish from clean rivers and lakes or oceans, I'll do it. So you don't like the heavy metals, I don't like the heavy metals. Get worried about this then microplastics. Yeah, I mean I think about this because I I test my heavy metals all the time, and I test the metals in my clients. And if I have had clients who eat opo, I go to the story they get opos wild or they get you know, it's just like I think I'm one of these bigger deep sea fishes. Oh I'm a minute, okay, yeah, um, halb don't eat with fish, yeah, halib it, sword fish, those kind of things. A lot of metals, and you'll see this down. We should have started with this if you're if you're guinea pigging yourself like all. I mean, I think that's awesome. I think we should have just started with this intro to to like set the record straight. He's you know, I think it's great, but there's no reason to apologize. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like you feel a little bit of burden. Right. If I'm going to write a book as a physician, I'm going to test all my labs. I've probably done over a thousand blood work test at this point, and I talked about Yeah, I test my labs all the time. I had a couple of blood tests like last week. I've done it all my podcast multiple times. I love doing blood work and looking at things and looking at my inflammatory markers and my heavy metals, and I want to know these things because I'm writing a book and I have to be able to tell people this is what I think works, this is what I believe works. And I work with clients doing this too, So I see it all the time. And what I'm saying about the OPA or the uh, the I had so many a lot of tuna, and then you see the mercury and the blood rise immediately even three week, three times a week, wild Sam, and I'll see the mercury bump a little bit, and I'm like, oh, that's an ideal. Have we just over polluted all the oceans at this point? And I think, well, I like fish and I love fishing, and I love I've only fly fished a couple of times, but I freaking love being on rivers. I love being in those places. But I ask myself, is it the best food in was it? Was it fantastic food years ago? Absolutely? But the thing I worry about is that is fishing. I'm not telling people I can't fish. I'm just trying to offer tools that might be helpful for human health. But is fishing now like eating beef grown in downtown Tokyo. You know, if if you eat beef that's inhaling lots of polluted air all the time, is that the best kind of beef you want to eat? Like I want to eat beef that's grown on the Idyllic farm in northern California. Well, yeah, but they just eat short lived, non pasciferous fish. That's probably the way to do it. That's the way to Yeah, eat small fish that don't accumulate metals, avoid big old fish, to eat lots of big old fish. There you go, That probably the way to do it. So if I did more of that, maybe I do that, But I mean one could do that. You could do that. You could do that. And also if you were eating fish, you could eat the fish nose to tail too. You know. The the fish row is very beneficial and has been treasured by cultures for many generations as well. And the organs brain. Yeah, those kind of things are valuable. Fish eyes, fish head, soup. This is what we're talking about. Nose to tail. Let's get back to your daily diet. Okay, my daily diet. You started out. You got your bone broth. My bone broth. I blanched some some some some steaming in it. How much bone broth you drink? Uh? So I make a big pot for and it last me three to four days. I drink probably sixteen ounces a day of bone broth. No coffee, I don't do coffee. That's a plant. Yeah. Do you got any kind of coffee type thing you make just to get that sensation of drinking coffee? I do deep breaths, I'll just go, you know, or just the organs. You have to quit drinking coffee at some point in time. Was it hard? It was hard. I used to be a bike racer, so I used to race road bikes, and there's a big culture and road bike in around. Sipping your cappuccino with your finger out. Yeah, then like coffee and road bike in and stuff. Yeah, you know that kind of brings a bell. I've seen that, like a bunch of old dudes on bikes, the little clickie shoes going in and get going in to get coffee, and there's a there's yeah, you wear spandex, you drink coffee a lot of the time. Like, yeah, they're super excited. Maybe they shouldn't be wearing spandex. But that's a whole different, whole different stories. So and yeah, when I had to stop drinking coffee, got a wake at headache for a week, and I was like, okay, but it was giving me a drinking and give you a headache. I do, but sometimes I'm like I don't want to drink it for a week, and I don't drink camel tea in the morning. Yeah, he's very on your very you're the exception. I wind up where I can't get any coffee. I take a aspirin or Bobby profen. Proact what's the word I'm looking for. Proactively. Really, I'm like, I'm like, well, if I can't get a coffee, I'll get a headache. So I just treat. I just treat the headache. And I used to take Excedrin. I used to carry around exceed because he's got caffeine in it. Just I don't know, stick your head, and I used to water and do like twenty five push ups. You're golden. It's pain. That's not what he's trying to It's not the fact that he's not waking up. It's the fact that he's You're gonna get the caffeine addiction. So excedrin has a little bit of caffeine in it. I iced to bring it camping, and if we were doing a thing where there wasn't gonna be coffee in the morning, I would bring it and just take it instead of coffee so that I wouldn't get the coffee headache. But hey, what don't you talk about coffee? All right? So there you are. You have to drinking all this bone broth. Drinking bone broth eating tendons blanched me. And then I'll eat the organs, and I eat the organs raw. So I love to eat the organs ship. I'll do shooters. And I was talking to Korean about this before. I think a good way to eat liver is to do a shooter. But I realized a lot of people won't do this, which is why we made the descated organ supplements as well. So I'll do the organs and then So for the first I was just saying this. For the first year and a half I did this, I had no carbs in my diet. It was zero carb um but a lot of protein balm. Let me ask you, Okay, we'll come back to that. No, No, just a quick digression. Are you okay? Do you ever find yourself? Do you're sneak a donut? I think that, I'm I think that. Are you ever like my god? Do I want to donut? You know what? I will never eat another cookie as long as I live. I just don't crave them. See that's like, Yeahni, he's all anti sugar. Well, I just don't. You may not like the next thing I'm gonna say, but I don't. Um, I don't. I just don't crave those foods. I think in my mind, I've been able. No. I never did, not, even like a little kid. I mean, sure, as a little kid I did. But at some point there was a shift in my mind and psychologically I just connected the way I felt afterwards, and I was like it's not worth it. It's not worth it. Nothing takes as good as healthy feels. Tony Robbins said, that is I love it, you know, like I just prioritize it. I was like, you know what, in medical school, I was doing jiu jitsu. Man, I'm getting choked and ship. I don't want to feel bad the next day, Like I can't even a donut or drink alcohol, and you know, I just running and being in the woods. There's so many cool things I want to do in my life. I don't want it. It's not worth it to me to eat bad food. That's why I quit drinking so much alcohol. I love drinking alcohol, just like being hungover. Do you feel like you're more connected to how your body feels? And maybe the average person who if you ask, how do you feel after drinking five bottles of beer? How do you feel after eating half of a pound cake? That that you're yeah, or that you're actually tuned into a certain visceral feeling and experience of yourself, like moment by moment that you just there. You don't crave it because it feels like pain. Absolutely, And I think this is one of the key points is that when you simplify your diet enough. When you get clean enough quote unquote, you get you get a good baseline. A lot of people can't separate signal from noise, so they always feel shitty, or they always feel a little bit hungover, They always feel a little bit brain fog. Are they always a little depressed? Yeah, what you're saying, once you get clean quote unquote, you know once you and a lot of people experience that for the first time when they fast, because it's it's really tricky for people to understand what good food is. But if you if you really don't know what to eat, just fast for a few days, which is not easy, but fast for three days and you will feel the best you've ever felt in your life because you have no negative inputs. Now, the trick is being able to do that long term, because you can't fast forever you will die. But if you can feel as good as you feel when you are fasting, when you're eating food, then you found food that really worked with your body. And that's the way that I and now thousands of people feel when they're doing an animal based diet or mostly animal foods, eating nose to tail and so yes, I think that I've gotten so refined in the laboratory of this corporeum my body that I know when I eat something bad, I'm just like, man, I ate something, I'm off either my stomach feels off or I get brain fog. And I've heard it from my friends too. I mean, you know, I'm traveling with a couple of couple of my friends from Hard and Soil here, and you know, one of the guys had to eat a sandwich in the airport and he did it kind of cheapestly. I was like, Doug, where'd you go. He's like, I had a sandwich. I was like, why, why did you do that? You didn't want to eat it in front of me, did you? And he's like, yeah, sandwich shaming. Yeah. And then he was like, you know what, I don't feel good and he was farting all last night and stuff, and so you know, it's you can tell. But once you get your body kind of refined, that makes it so much easier to make behavioral change, because you know, like I actually saw what it felt like to feel really good, to sleep well, to wake up clear headed, to have energy, to like do one workout and then be like, you know, I could go work out again, or like do a workout and then play with your kids, or like proper human libido, or not being depressed or anxious or you know all those things. That's what makes life. We're living like training, right. It's like if you keep sticking your hand inside it, I don't know, a raccoon cage or something, and it bites your hand, you're gonna speaking up. He purnt up at raccoon cage. But I mean, I think you guys get it with drink, and a lot of people would drink all the time, don't even understand how good you could be when you don't drink. And I hear these people all the time when they cut things out of their diet. I never knew I could feel this good. I never knew I could feel as good as I felt when I cut bread out of my diet. I never knew how good I was gonna feel when I cut all these plants out of my diet, when I cut kill out of my diet. Had somebody email me that the other day. I never knew how good my gut, you know, my stomach could feel until I cut kill out of my diet. Mysteriously blow seriously, you know, I was trying to having Like I mean, I'll tell you, one of the best things about being eating a carnivore diet is you don't have to worry about farting, because that's really socially awkward and uncomfortable, you know, Like I mean. If you think a carnivore diet is hard on dating, try being a vegan because I was that too. I was a raw vegan for seven months. About you did that. I was a rab vegan for seven months. I was lost. I lost twenty five pounds of muscle mass, and all the people hang out with it were just like, man, you have the worst part. Now, what were you doing that? Why was I doing it? Like thirteen years ago? A long time ago, so you'd like, do a lot of guinea pigging. I love it. Now what this is I'm kind of annoyed by this question, but I have to ask you, when you're traveling, how are you how are you rigging up for your meals? Or it's just so simple because you're eating such simple things, it's not hard to get it. It's super simple. So we took I think that that's one of the reasons the desiccated stuff is super helpful, right, So we took the desicated stuff on the plane. If you don't want to travel with liver and spleaning pancreas, it's hard to get. I have done, yeah, but it's hard to get. You know. We went to the co op here in Bozeman and I was like, do you guys have any spleen? They're like no, what about pancreas? No? And even liver. We might have a little liver. I was like, I sweet, I got one for a cat's psychologists hanging up in that place. Maybe you coming the door, because like all those old signs, you like tear off a tab cat's cholos to get a shrink for your cat. I had to quit going into that store. But they had good meat. They had good meat. Maybe you can tell you that's right. Well, I'm waiting for the invite to dinner at Steve's house. I didn't get it yet. So that's that's about that. That's about all I got right now. But yeah, I mean it's it's super simple. So I think for traveling, I think, okay, what do I need to eat? I want to bring some suet, So I packed a little I got a little glass container. I brought some kidney fat. Who brings kidney fat on a plane except this guy. I brought some kidney fat. I brought some meat, and I forgot the liver. So I went to the store. I got some liver, and um, yeah, I brought some salt on the plane and I'm good. And so I didn't finish telling you guys what I eat in a day because there's one other thing, because it's so interesting. So for the first year and a half I did it. I had no carbs, right, no cars It was all keto, low carb. And then I started thinking about this a little more, and I thought, you know what, I think our ancestors would have had fruit occasionally seasonally. I know that the hods are really treasure hunty honey. Um. I got really interested in honey specifically, and there's really interesting data on honey being used to treat period on titus and ginger vitis. Honey is actually good for dental health in like the true form, which makes sense. It's a whole food. There's all kinds of compounds in there. And I was living in San Diego and I thought, you know, I feel a little cold sometimes I'm gonna reincorporate honey back in my diet and see how I feel. And of course, the you know part of me is like, I can't do that. It's it's not meat, and thought it's stupid to be dogmatic. Yeah, it's not a plan. And if vegans won't eat it, then I can eat it. That's the way I think about it. So I incorporated honey back in my diet and I really like it. So a lot of days I'll incorporate honey in my diet and that makes the whole thing seem a lot more appealing to me. And that's why I want you guys to read that chapter in the book about the Tier one carnivore diet where I say, hey, it's not about just eating meat. It's about eating meat in organs, but also knowing which parts of the plant are less tought sick. And there's a whole section of a carnivore ish diet in there where I say, okay, eat meat and organs, and then you can eat honey, and then like things like avocado and berries and squash. These are fruit. I think the fruit is the least toxic part of a plant. The plant is trying to get you to eat it most of the time. And so I think that generally speaking, fruit has been seasonally in our diets, and so berries. So when I thought about this, Okay, this is a version of an animal based diet. This is really how I want people to think about a carnivore ish diet, an animal based diet. And we're gonna make a cookbook that's based on a carnivora is diet next year with the same publisher, and it's the idea like, hey, eat animal meat and organs as a center of your diet, and then you can also have you can have carbohydrates if you want them, but eat it from the least toxic plant sources. Get rid of the kale and we can talk about why, and get rid of the seeds. But if you want to do things like avocado or squash, or berries or an apple or seasonal fruit, those are probably really fine for you. And that I think opens up the doors for a lot of people to to do this type of a diet. And it's the goal is not to be dogmatic. The goal is to help people get back to living well. Are you doing, honey right now? I do how much I do about do about a hundred and fifty grams of honey a day, which is a lot um. So a tablespoon is fifteen grahams, so it's about seven to ten tablespoon's day. No milk, No, I don't do milk. I don't do dairy. Now, A lot of people have trouble with dairy. An logically, I think our ancestors wouldn't have even a ton of milk. I know the mess. I eat milk, but if you can tolerate milk, it's an animal food, it's great. Um. But I have trouble with caseine and way I had an X amount really bad, which is the reason that I did a carnivore diet in the first place. You know, there's no ex amounts like bumpy. Yeah. Yeah, but my eximuma went went away completely when I did a carnivore diet and I tried everything else. I tried Keto and Paley and all this other stuff, and it couldn't It didn't fix it. So that was the reason I did it. But dairy always triggers my EXI must, so I don't do it. Okay, do you think if you're giving recommendations to people do you think that, like distilled down, is your message more that you need people need to add to their diet or they needed to take away from their diet. I think if you had to do one thing, it would be to simplify, and the one thing the first thing. So if you wanted to make a hierarchy, right, if people wanted to, If I if I were gonna recommend people do one thing, it's get rid of those vegetable oils. And this hasn't been the total focus of our conversation. So I think that if you're gonna do one thing, it would be get rid of those vegetable oils. And they're in a lot of things, right, So this is corn, canola, saf flower, sunflower, soybean oils. They're in a lot of foods. If you eliminate those from your diet and change nothing else, I think a lot of people will get to a better place in health. Now. I hope people won't stop there. I hope they will then add an animal meeting organs, and then I hope they will think about the plants they're eating and if they can get rid of the most toxic plants. There's like three apps, but that's the first step, and the first step is just simplify and get rid of the processed foods which are really full of those oils, and stop cooking with those oils. And part of that for a lot of people is also getting the best quality meat they can too, you know, because a lot of the meat that's fed corn and soy, these are not species appropriate diets and it can accumulate. It's what we know about things like pigs is that if you feed pigs corn and soy, their fat is going to be enriched in linelaic acid. And so that's probably a problem for a lot of people too. But first thing, cut out those vegetable oils and everything with them in it. That's higher than cutting out sugar. It is. No I'm not saying I want people to keep eating sugar, but I think I think I think that I think that the single greatest driver of chronic disease and metabolic dysfunction in humans is excess linelaic acid. And you can actually look at this. There's a fascinating set of graphs out there. You can look at human consumption of sugar and grains, and you can look at the rates of obesity and the rates of diabetes and the rates of chronic disease. And though if you look at those graphics, you can look at in from consumption of grains and sugar went up and sort did our consumption of vegetable oil massively, and then around um and rates of diabetes and obesity and chronic disease went up to but around between now rates of grain consumption and sugar have actually gone down, the vegetable oil has continued to rise, and we are still getting much fatter, much sicker, much more diabetic, and much worse from an autoimmune perspective. So again this is just all correlational sort of inference. But what you see here is like, huh, this is interesting, and I think, yeah, sugar is not a great thing for humans at all, and honey actually looks to behave differently than sugar in humans. But if you had to do one thing, it would be vegetable oils in my opinion, No ship real quick explaining what's the problem with with If you're like, what's the problem with Brian meat? Like if the meat is okay and the oil is okay, what happens when you get it's super hot and cook one and the other right, So now I think if you're gonna cook meat in oil, you want to do it an animal fat. Oh. Can I just tell you one of my new favorites. We've had it like three times in the last ten days. I raised a bunch of wild turkey thighs and legs, and then I've got a jar Brody's bear grease bar oil from last fall, and I've been just frying that. It's funny if i'd turkey meat in oil in bar oil. Yeah, it's funny because if I did it in like vegetable oil and peanut oil, I'd be like real careful about like taking the meat out and sort of like straining it or draining or whatever. But when I do it in that bear grease, I'm just like, man, I hope it soaks it up so that me and the kids are eating it, you know, because it's good. It is good, And so I got keep explaining a little bit better. I mean the same way that you say, like you you'd like to crisp up your Oh, I didn't know if you meant your drop like you're dropping a drumstick, like frying a drumstick, like like picked braised meat and then you fry it and then put it on something. Yeah, and what are you get into up the word again, you're getting all messed up on um lipid peroxide. Yeah, Okay, break that down for me. So it is very bad if maybe maybe not. So you heat it up and something bad happen. You heat it up at something bad happens. Now, humans have probably been dealing with this for a long long time. We know that when we eat foods there are compounds produced. When we heat foods and dry heated high temperatures, there are lots of things produced that our body has to kind of detoxify. Now, a lot of people will point to meat and say, oh, you shouldn't eat meat that's charged or grilled because of these compounds. And some of these are polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and heterosticic a means, and the body has a way to deal with these. But the question is just how much can we detoxify and are we you know, are we putting a stress on the body. I think that most people, if they're healthy and have enough nutrients from good animal meat and oregans, can make enough lutth ione, which is our endogenous antioxidant. It's how it's part of how our body deals with this to detoxify these compounds. But as the astronaut, I just thought, what if I decrease them as low as possible in my diet? Do I feel better? Do my labs change? That's why I do it. I just want to experiment and see, like what's the end? You know, how do we get people there? The same kind of things are happen when you cook food. I mean when you cook plants. So coffee has heterocyclic A means as well, and so there's a lot even if you cook bread and your brown bread or your toast bread. There are things like Malleard products, advanced Liketion end products. So cooking food creates things that the body has to detoxify. We probably have the ability to do it somewhat. You just don't want to overload the system, okay, And I think that you're underlying health probably determines how well you're able to detox about that, So in my mind, I thought, what if I just don't get my body any of that or the smallest amount possible. And that's kind of the experiment I'm doing. I'll agree cooking a ribby and tallow is delicious when you get the crust on it. What you're talking about there sounds delicious, crispy. Things arelicious. And if you're gonna cook in oil, cooking animal fat, do not cooking vegetable oil, please. When you cook fats, you get what are called lipid peroxides. These are essentially free radicals formed by lipids. So a lipid is a fat molecule. And what we're talking about here now are electrons, and we're talking about unpaired electrons. And these molecules are reactive. They can move around the human body and cause damage, and so your body has to detoxify them. So I think it's just for me. It was the experiment, how do I get the least amount of the ease of possible? And then can I see in my blood work that things like lipid peroxides change or other markers of oxidative stress, you know, esoteric markers I use in medicine, like eight hydroxy two deoxy iguanasine, which is a marker of DNA damage, or malon dialdehyde, all that kind of stuff. So that's why I do it. Now, if if somebody came to me and said, am I eating too much of these, I'd say, well, let's just check some blood work. We can see you know, we can look at your oxidative stress. I can look at how much glue toothion you've got and how much of its oxidized versus reduce. So I could tell yeah, you know, like, oh, maybe you want to stop doing that as much, or maybe it just needs more of the nutrients that are going to allow your body to talk about stuff. But that's why I do it. Does that make sense? And I'm only not trying to be a party pooper, you know, talk about like the most boring way to eat food. I just think about it medically too. Remember earlier, we're talking about objective realities. Okay, I imagine that in the medical community, it's possible to draw someone's blood and then look at the blood do the blood work on someone, and there probably isn't there's probably like an academic consensus about what the markers in there, whether that's a healthy person or not. Is that true or not true? Generally? Is there something still to argue about. There are a few things to argue about, but percent of it is like, yeah, we can look at inflammatory markers, we can look at markers of oxidation, lipid, peroxydes, all that kind of stuff. Yes, Okay, so if we drew yours. Let's say I drew yours and I took it and just showed I drew your blood and had your blood work drawn up, and I took it and showed it to It's just a random doctor coming down the road. Yeah, I'd be like, hey, man, what what's up? What do you think when you look at this right? What would they be able to tell me? Would they say, man, oh, that's really surprising to see such low or such high this and that they would just say that guy looks really healthy for the most part, except for one thing. And we can get into that if you want, Like, well, I mean, what is the one thing? The one thing is l d L cholesterol, which is a whole rabbit hole to go down. So but that would pop out to them, that would pop out to them for sure, you have a lot of it. I have a lot of l d L in my body. I do, I do, And everybody's been told that L d L is bad for you. But there's a whole chapter in my book kind of breaking down that myth and talking about how the lipid hypothesis is really wrong in my opinion and widely challenged. So we can go down the shot they would see or they'd be like, yeah, the gala's great. Yeah, if you don't show my LDL. If you if you just cover up L d L and look at it, they be like, Wow, there's no inflammation. His kidneys look fine, his liver looks fine. He's got plenty of vitamin markers. He's got his vitamin D is high. Man, it's testosterones high. Everything, that's good. What am I? What am I looking at this guy? Like? How am I looking at here? And then it showing the LDL and they kind of like fall out of their chair and they'd say, what, he's gonna die. He's gonna he's gonna die. He needs a statin. Yeah, yeah, I say he needs med's yeah. Absolutely. And I can tell you the story. It's a pretty interesting story. But you don't need one. I definitely don't. So when my dad, so I'm forty three, When my dad was forty three, he had a heart attack. So I have a primary relative who had an early onset corner artery disease. Right, I've had a high quote LDL low density lip, a protein which is colloquially known as bad cholesterol, which is totally the wrong. Yeah. Yeah, I've had a high l d L four probably three plus years, I mean the whole time I've been doing a carnivore diet. My l d l's and over two hundred and the last one I got was very high. And so we can go down rabbit holes. This is a very complex discussion about why l d L goes up and down. It probably has to do with ratio. Is a saturated fat unsaturated fat in the human body, and that goes back to previous discussions about whether saturated fat is actually bad for humans. I don't believe it is at all. It's part of something we've been eating forever. But if you just pause there in my story, well I'll tell you the rest of the story. So I've had a high LDL for over two years, and because it was so high, I thought, oh, this is a great opportunity to illustrate something. So I had what's called a coronary artery calcium score. They do a CT scan of your heart and they look for calcium in your arteries, which is calcified black. Not a perfect test, but pretty teeth. Yes, exceptually, and except it ends up in the heart arteries. And this is sort of telling you you have atheros school roses. This is the people to people worry about the plaque that ruptures in the arteries. Is this plaque? Right? So I have zero zero, And so in talking to cardiologists and in talking to cardiac radiologists, if you showed them my blood work, they would say, oh, yeah, that guy has a family history and his dad who had a heart attack at his age, and his l d L. Right now, my l d L is five and thirty four milligrams for desci leader. Uh, most doctors want to see it under a hundred. So I'm like superstar and l d L I'm like massively high. And they would say, oh, yeah, that guy is gonna have plaque. I have zero plaque. And there are so many stories like mine about this. Now you could say it's not a perfect test, not a perfect test, but it's pretty darned sensitive for that kind of plaque. And I have a primary relative a heart attack in my age. Now I'll just keep getting them and showing people that at zero. But it challenges the idea that l d L cholesterol equals heart attacks, and I challenge this broadly in the book. This is such a big misunderstanding, and it's a lot of the reason that vegetable oils get recommended to us as healthy because vegetable oils lower L d L. Saturated fat raises L d L. And yet what do we know about vegetable oils. We know they're very unhealthy for people, And what do we know about saturated fat, Well, it's pretty darned healthy for people. There's a really famous trial called the Minnesota Cornery Experiment which was done in nineteen seventy three, and they took I think it was over nine thousand people. This is a randomized, blinded study. It's interventional study, this is not epidemiology. It took over nine thousand people in Minnesota, and they put half of them on high saturated fat diets or higher saturated fat, and another half on higher polyN saturated fat from vegetable oil. And that trial went five years, and at the end of the trial, the people who had more polyan saturated fat had higher rates of death from cancer, heart disease, and overall all cause mortality. They clearly died more of all sorts of badness when they had more polyan saturated fats. It's a huge study, it's very well done. It's sort of like cut and dry vegetable oils are horrible for humans, and these are the oils that are cardiologists will tell us to eat because they lower L d L, and our framework for cardiovascular health is entirely l d L centric, totally eldal centric. If it raises LDL, it is bad. If it lowers LDEL, it's good. Except if you actually dig into the medical literature and this gets to be a little les oteric, and you look at this. What you find is that when you give someone polyon saturated fats like linoleic acid, like vegetable oils, they're LDL goes down, but they're oxidized. L d L goes up, and another marker called LP little A, which is a marker for oxidation and LDL also goes up. What we now know is that it's not so much about the L d L that you have, it's about how much of that is suffering oxidation. There's that word again, so oxidation. That's the kind of stuff I'm worried about with lipid peroxides and free radicals, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons is oxidative stress. We're talking about the movement of electrons, So you really don't want your l d L to be oxidized. And when you give someone vegetable oil, more LD'LL gets oxidized. The overall amount of l DL goes down, but more LDL gets oxidized. So this is one of the sort of last or it's just not even a last one. It's just a very widely held belief that needs to die because it's just wrong and it's hurting people. And in the book, I kind of break this down. There's lots of other studies that show that more l d L does not always equal more cornary arter disease. And it's not the fact that LDL just goes into your arteries and causes plaque. That doesn't make any sense. Because LDL load density liver protein is a boat in your body. It's like a bus and moves things around the body. It's valuable for humans. It moves steroid backbone molecules to your testicles, to the ovaries, to the adrenal glands, to your brain to make all the hormones that make us human beings. We need. This molecule, l d L and HDL it's counterpart, also play a role in the immune response. If you talk about kids who don't have enough l d L, they get sick way more often. There's a genetic condition with a mutation in the enzyme that makes cholesterol. Now, cholesterol is a steroid backbone molecule that gets packaged into the l d L particle. L d L is a bus that carries triglycerides, which are fat molecules, and cholesterol, and so l d L and cholesterol are sort of synonymous colloquially, but that's not really the correct terminology. Cholesterol is a steroid backbone molecule that gets made by our body and packaged into l d L. There's a genetic condition called Smith Lemley op Pits syndrome in which kids can't make or humans can't make LDL or they can't make cholesterol, which results in very low levels of l d L. A lot of these kids die in utero, and those that are born have pretty seriously bad medical conditions. They have a lot of times mental retardation, they have recurring infections, and the way they are treated is they are given egg yolks they are given lots and lots of egg yolks, which are super rich in cholesterol. So we give kids back cholesterol and they do better when they can't make it. And yet we are told by the medical establishment that this molecule, this l d L cholesterol molecule, or cholesterol in general, are trying to kill us. And it kind of goes back to this theme that we've been talking about throughout this podcast. Why would something that has been an essential part of our evolution suddenly be bad for us, whether it's eating me and organs, or whether it's a molecule that's essential to human health, why would that be bad for us? We have to rethink these paradigms, but so much of medicine move so lowly. It's like the Titanic. You just can't change these paradigms. They're just so bent on it. But that's why I do the work I do. L d L is not the enemy. The enemy is the underlying metabolic dysfunction and or it's synonymous with insulin resistance or pre diabetes. That really lights the LDL on fire, but it didn't cause the blaze. So at a very broad strokes level, I asked people to think about it like this. Imagine l d L like wood in your garage. You're not gonna get spontaneous conduction into that would. You have to have a spark, And that spark is underlying metabolic disfunction. Without a spark, that l d L is actually just valuable because you can build a house out of it. You could build a house or a cabin, or you could build a treehouse for your kids out of that wood in your garage. But if you get gasoline there and you light a fire, that that wood's gonna go up. So because the LDL is involved in a plaque, doesn't mean that l d L caused the plaque. It's the spark. And so what is the spark. The spark is metabolic dysfunction. How does metabolicas function come about? Linelaic acid and vegetable oils explain to me as though five years old katosis. Okay, the keto diet. So this is a completely different we're going off topic. Oh no, yeah, we're going we're going. Yeah, okay, So I'm being mindful of where we're at, where we gotta get so we're pos if I walk out of here. Oh no, there's a pause, because I thought we were like I thought that that felt like a great summation. I just I just thought you maybe you ask that questions. Okay, No, I never knew any of that stuff because over here shaking his head like, well, you know, like I know, I love it. It's just I'm gonna ask to listen to this podcast again too, because there's just a lot of words that you know, this is the first time I've heard them, right, So let me know if you want to clarify them, and I'll do my best. I think we can move on. I want to go. We're talking about Keto. Yeah, we got a little checklists and stuff we got um Janni weirdly put one down and took it away. Oh no, it's back again. What what did I take away? Oh no, I'm still there. Sorry, Okay, ketosis like I'm five, Okay, like I'm five. Were here a lot these days about the Keto diet. Going into like going into katosa sounds like a bad thing, would have like something bad is happening to you. Traditionally people have thought about keatos is a bad thing, but I don't think it is at all. I think it's it's our bodies very precisely evolved defense mechanism against oarvation. It's basically how your body uses stored fat as fuel. So you have a couple of gas tanks in your body. You're like a car with two gas tanks. One gas tank is called glycogen, it's in your liver and your muscles, and the other gas tank is called fat. And generally speaking, if humans are fat, they can survive a long winter. You've got stored fat. We don't want to be extra fat, but we've all got a couple of pounds, many pounds of fat in our bodies, so that if we don't eat, or we don't have a successful hunt, we can turn that into fuels. For one second, is it true that that that fat people um stay warm better? I think thermodynamically, yeah, it makes sense. I mean just from a I mean whenever I've been out surfing in the ocean and there's fat guys out there, they're often way way way warmer than I am. I mean it's like seal blubber right, Like it's insulation because like people are like, oh, yeah, you're cold because you're skinny, it's possible. Am I am cold? Well? And sometimes whop sometimes who get cold because they their thyroid doesn't work. But you know, all things being equal, you know, if we have equivalent thyroid function and equivalent baseline metabolism, which is how you generate heat, because your body can generate its own heat with brown fat, things like that, mitochondrial uncoupling, the you can you know, if you put on a bunch of layers, you would be warmer. You know, hold on, do you understand what mitochondrial uncoupling is. Nobody understand if I put on a few layers, I'll be warmer. You know that if you put on a neoprene suit, you'd be warmer. So that's what it's doing. It's just like insulation. Now I'll get back into the keyto. So keyto. We have two energies ones in your muscle livers, ones in your fat, ones in your fat. And the way that you access your fat is through keytnes. In order to pull that fuel and burn it by the rest of your body. You turn that fat into keytnes, so you can do something called beta oxidation. And the way that you move that fat around your body is and keytones. It's one way that it happens. So keytones are just an alternative fuel that your body uses when you don't have enough carbohydrates or when you're starving in general. And that's essentially how it happens. You use that fat, you turn it in key tones. Those keytones move around the body and they get turned back into substrate that your body can use to burn. And the goal being to get rid of the fat, not necessarily to get rid of I mean, the goal of ketogenic diets is, yes, to get rid of the fat, but you can get rid of fat without being ketogenic, So what is the goal? Ketogenic diets were originally developed for kids with seizures because they really yeah, because they realized medically, that's why they were developed. Humans have always been in ketosis. If you're out hunting and you don't have it, you don't eat anything for twenty four hours or seventy two hours, you're going into keytosis because your body is gonna use them. Everybody that fasts it goes into keytosis. Yeah, and our ancestors definitely had periods where they didn't have any substantially meaning you're tapping into body fat. You're tapping into body fat, and it's not you can also eat but if you don't get enough calories because your body has It's like you have a car. That car needs a certain amount of energy to run every day. The lights in this studio, you have to put energy into those lights. You have to put energy into this brain, these eyeballs. Everything in your body needs energy. So you if you only eat calories a day, how does your body make up the difference. It makes up the difference by pulling it from fat once it pulls out of glycogen the first gas tank. Your body uses glycogen generally speaking, and then it goes into fat once you exhaust the glycogen. So for most people it takes about twenty four hours to exhaust the glycogen and then your body switches over to burning fat and making it in ketones. Some people have less the glycogen, but if you don't eat carbohydrates, your body doesn't really make as much glycogen. That's a broad stroke statement because it's not entirely true, but in broad strokes, that's what we're talking about, that you have less stored carbohydrate when you are in ketoses, and that's then it puts you into catos is quicker quicker or you stay in ketosis long term because generally speaking, we have thought about ketoses as starvation or not eating. But you can eat food would and still be in ketosis if you don't eat carbohydrates. Depending on the ratio of protein and fat. If you eat too much protein, you won't be in ketosis because your body can turn protein into glucose, right, But if you eat a lot of fat and a small amount of protein or a modernmount of protein, you can get into ketosis. Now what we know is is there a benefit? Is there a benefit to being in ketosis besides the fact besides the fact that you're diminishing fat, Like, what are you really getting from it? There are absolutely benefits to being in ketosis, but that doesn't mean you should be in it all the time. So it's kind of this evolutionary switch. We certainly would have had it occasionally. At a broad level, things change in your genetics. Different genes get turned on and off when you're a ketosis because these ketone molecules there are two major ketone molecules in your body. These ketone molecules affect which genes get turned on and off. And you'll here we will talk about this as quotes cellular house cleaning, and so what your body does is auto fogy. I don't know if you guys have heard that war. Cellular house cleaning, it means eating yourself. So it cleans up old, dead, kind of broken proteins and cells. When you're in that autophagy state and when you are eating less carbohydrates or when you are fasting, is when your body kind of goes toward auto It's a balance between building and tearing down. Talk about doing a cleanse yes and no, is it clean? And what? Well, there's a lot of stuff to clean. I mean there are there's a lot of cellular components for humans to clean, and we need to do this occasionally. And your body has mechanisms the kind of clean house. Just like your house gets dirty whether you have kids or not. If you have kids, you know, your house just gets dirty by itself because of the kids. And even if you don't have kids, your house still gets dirty. This is entropy. Things break, they kind of go wrong. Your body needs time to do this cellular house cleaning, and this happens when you are fasting or when you can enable your body to do it. When you have a caloric deficit. So like I said, if you have if you have a baseline requirement for calories a day, or two thousand calories a day, and you only eat eight hundred, your body is gonna make up the rest by burning glycogen or by burning stored fat. And when you are in that state, when you were in a calorically deficient state, your body does this house cleaning state, this auto fog that's been associated with a lot of good things and humans, a lot of better outcomes and all kinds of things. So it's helpful, but you can over use it. It's something we should cycle in and out of, and it doesn't have to be complex. This is the way it always would have been. You don't get an animal every day you go hunting. Our ancestors didn't either. There were times they were fasting, there were times they had caloric deficits, and they were times they feasted and they had caloric excess. It's built into our physiology. The problem is that we eat every day. A lot of people eat every day and they have caloric excess every single day. They never do time restricted feeding. Remember earlier when I was talking about I was talking about my diet, and I eat two meals a day. I have a time restricted feeding window. That's just something I leverage most days where I eat breakfast in a late lunch and then all fast about sixteen hours every day, and I wake up in ketosis even though I'm eating honey right, So even though I'm getting hy grams of carbohydrates, I'm using my liver glycogen. My body is using stored fat to make keytones. But keytones are beneficial for humans and that they change things, and it's valuable, but it shouldn't. I don't think you should happen all the time, and so it should be sicklic and so the keyto genic diet is leveraging a lot of these ideas. But you don't have to be keyto to get into keytosis. You can eat carbohydrates and just fast, or you can eat carbohydrates and just do a calorie restricted diet on some days. Does that make sense? So, but it is valuable I think for humans to go into that state of caloric deficiency one way or another. The key to diet just makes it long term for people because they don't eat carps. I think there are downsides to that as well, um and we can talk about those if you want, uh, do you believe? Do you ever use the term fad diet? I mean, not for a carnivore diet. I've heard the term, but I had a friend one time that was on a diet where you were on a diet six days a week and then you had a cheap day, right. And I'm member when every dude that lived in certain towns where I hang out, like for instance, remember when like every dude in Miles City was on the Atkins diet. But they're not now, Okay, you're about like the Keto diet. And I'm assuming that soon people will not beyond the keyto diet just because the ebb and flow of diets. Like where does the carnivore diet fit into this? Like will it have it? Does it have a life expectancy? I hope not? And I hope that thinking outside of the box a little bit and not making it dogmatic will will give it that that that absence or will exempt it from a life expectancy. It's more of a lifestyle, and I hope I've done a decent job of helping people understand that. It's it's just the same asking the question, what do our ancestors do, and how do we to thrive to lifestyle. It's not a this diet or that diet. It's like, what are the foods that nourish us? What are the least toxic plants? How do we feel as good as we and as humans? That's my idea. What the carnin word? I You gotta call it something, right. I wish, you know, you could call it the carnin ward lifestyle, but people wouldn't understand what it was. But that's the way I think about it. It's just asking questions as a physician, as an outdoorsman, as somebody who likes to go run in the mountains and hunt. How do I get to do these things as well as I can? How do I help my patients and my clients? And what our ancestors do? Those are the questions that are most interesting to me. So I don't want it to have that and I certainly didn't make it up. I mean, I think our answers have been eating this way for a long time, and there's plenty of tribes. There's an Amazonian tribe called the Kayoe Menno who eat a lot of this way. They eat animal meeting organs and fruit when it's seasonal. Indigenous people don't eat vegetables like we think they do. They kind of get that stems, roots, seeds, and leaves, especially the stems, leaves and seeds, we're not really good human food. They're not very calorically dense. A lot of the time, I got a lot of toxins. So that's the idea there. So it's not intended to be a fad diet. And I've never been a super fan of the cheat day idea either, because it doesn't work human I saw the cheat day get abused. Yeah. Yeah, because look, I mean a lot of the a lot of people who are finding benefits with the carnivore cheesecake factory, right, they're finding benefits from an autoimmune perspective. And that's what's so interesting to me about it. A lot of the diseases we see in Western society or today are autoimmune lupus, show grins um, you know, autoimmune thyroid itis, all this kind of stuff. I mean, X and my like I had, these are autoimmune diseases. Our immune system is overactivated. There's something going on here, and the immune system has a longer memory than seven days. We know this with things like celiact disease or gluten intolerance. So if you really want your immune system to calm down, you gotta keep you gotta prevent, you know, exposing it to foods that are going to trigger it every seven days. A lot of people think about diets and food just from a weight loss perspective, and that's why I think a carnival diet is different. We're thinking about things in terms of human health and how we can help people live in the most quality lives. Weight loss is secondary, but Atkins was all about weight loss. All these diets are about weight loss, weight loss and how you look as a human. I'm more interested in how Yeah, that's a good point, man, I forgot about that. It was like it wasn't like optimal performance. It was aesthetic, right, aesthetic. I'm more interested in how you feel, how you how you how your mood is, how well you think, how poised you are, how emotionally calm you are with your kids and your wife or your husband or your partner. You know, like quality of life. And I think that if you do that you'll look good too. That's like a bonus. But I'm not going to sacrifice nutrition and optimal human health at the expense of somebody looking good. M hmm. Yeah. And weight Watch is probably the most the most famous diet ever and it's right in its name, right, and that's exactly what it's focused on. It's focused on aesthetics and weight loss. That cheat Day diet was that way too write with no attention to human health. I don't know what it was called the cheat day. I ain't a lot of them have that. Tim Ferris had a cheat day, I know when he talked about his Way eight. But Paleo sounds pretty similar to this, right, I mean they're always talking about eating with the ancestors eight, right, is there a big difference? There is a big difference. It asks the same questions. It just answers the question differently. It's saying, what are our ancestors eat? And actually, you know what's funny is I had I'm good friends with Rob Wolf who wrote the Paleo Solution, and Lauren Cordaine who wrote the Paleo Diet. I've had them both of my podcast, and I think as we start to think about this more, I love that question, how to our ancestors eat? I just have a different answer and My answer says, leafy greens and seeds hate you and don't want to get eaten. Kale doesn't love you back, you know, and a paleo diet. They're like, eat your leafy greens, and I'm like, no, leavy greens, spinach and kale, hey you, they don't want to get eaten. Don't eat those foods. So as much as you could call it the cardinal diet, you could also call me the anti broccoli crusader. Like that's what's different about it, you know. It's like I just wanted people to understand we draw the ideas a little different. We we ask the same questions. They're valuable questions, I think, but we just answer them differently based on anthropology and ethnography and biomedical science, and say, why are we eating kale in the first place? Let make any sense. It is interesting, man, when you go into a garden and you're like, uh, you know you grow tomatoes. You're like, yeah, I asked the member of the night shade family. Dude, that family is full of ship that will kill you. You know, absolutely if you eat this one. It's a certain way. But you know, you look at the animal kingdom. I mean you can point to that puffer fish liver, but generally, like my kids like, is that bird edible? I'm like, listen, man, all birds are edible. They're just edible. They're like they might not. I'm not telling you they're going to taste good, but they're edible, and they'll be like, is that animal edible? Yes, yes, that's exactly what we talked about. You know, there are a few rare exceptions that frog in the Amazon, the ones, the ones we know about, and the power fish. But of animals readible, you can't say that about plants, right, You just can't. And all the unique new like any vertebrate the lake, like can I eat that? You can eat that? You like it? You can eat it. And yet if you and I walk into the woods and we just start eating swaths of plants, we're gonna be We're gonna be pooping our pants before we get very fair. We get excited about the ones that don't mess you up. They're like, I mean I could eat this the plant, it's like a very small proportion that will. And the ones you point out, the ones you be like, no, ship, you can eat it. Yeah, it's not gonna be good for you which mushroom is not going to kill you? Yeah? Yeah, you mean this one won't kill me? Sweet man. You see, there's such a good point, right Anything that's like still and growing on the ground, you have to be worried about it. You have to have almost a doctorate to know if you can eat it or not yet. But if it runs or flies, good to go? Yeah, like berries, kids, like, can we eat this one? Man? I don't know they're not. I don't know if they're not, but that one I know is actually safe. That stands out as safe. And that's that's that? Isn't that so interesting? It just makes so much sense right now. It's a funny point, man, the more you think about it. With the plant toxins, can you touch on safety? I read that word or sat satiety. I think there's two ways to pronounce it. Making that word was in the book a lot talking about how our current diet basically you just never get full. Oh yeah, yeah, this is super interesting in it all I say satiety like like comes from insatiable. So there are a couple of reasons that our current diet is not satiating. But I've had a lot of friends anecdotally tell me they try plant based diets and they're like, I'm always freaking hungry, and then they try an animal base and they're like, Wow, I felt full for the first time in so long, And I'm thinking, yeah, right. So society is complex, it's complex physiology and the human brain. But you know, just going back to what we were talking about with linteleic acid, there's really good evidence that linneleic acid makes us hungry. There's molecular mechanisms in the brain by which linoleic acid triggers hunger and saturated fat, which is found in animals, triggers satiety. And we don't have to get into why that works, but in the hypothalamus, which is part of the satiety center in the brain, these two fatty acids affect our selves and our mitochondria differently. So that's the first thing is that vegetable oils make you hungry. They're sabotaging your sotiety. We talked a little bit about sugar. Processed foods absolutely make you hungry, and I think there's nutrient density the sensing in the human body. If you are not getting the nutrients found in meat and liver, all those magical nutrients quote unquote that I talked about earlier Colleene Carnatiene Carnescene. You are not going to be satiated because your body is like I am deficient in something and it knows it. You can't tell. You don't have like your computer chip, like a diagnostic in your car, Like I'm deficient to ride with lave and I should go eat some liver. But you get cravings and they go out of whack when you're pregnant, and it big winds up being the thing everybody talks about exactly, and you only can crave things you've had. So people say, well, why don't I crave liver? What when was the last time you eat liver? Right? Like you all you know is that you crave something. And that's so society is huge, And I think that I've never liked weight loss strategies that put people in a mental prison. You're never going to be able to calorie restrict for your whole life. Calorie restricting and starving yourself is a fantastic way to lose weight. It's also a fantastic way to have your life suck really bad, and like, why are you living life if it's so miser bole and your body will find a way. You will never stay in calorie prison your whole life unless you are super motivated, and what's the point of living in that way? So that's why dietary constructions like this, they're fascinating to me that actually emphasize nutrient density and ancestrally consistent diet and they create sutiety without making us feel like we are depriving ourselves. And you don't even have to have caloric deficit. So it's a huge topic and I think that you can starve yourself, but it's not going to work long term. I so appreciate that, just because I think the mindset of focusing on the outward appearance of someone's body and being calorie restricted, it's just led to so much, um, I don't know, so much pain, to say the least, for both men and women. But traditionally we think about women. You know, I have a younger sister and when she was growing up, you know, I I see it because I have a younger sister, Like, there's so much body image. I know men experience it too, but for women it's especially destructive. You know, it's really hard, and it's the same kind of idea. And in a while we're on the topic. You know, a lot of women don't think about red meat and organs as food because they're afraid of making them fat. But I really believe strongly that this is a game changer for women as well, because it's like, this is the food your body is craving. And I talk about this in a study in the book. We can look at things like evoked response potentials in the brain. This is one of the coolest parts of the book. And you can show vegetarians and vegans and omnivores pictures of meat, and you can look at with an e G and electro and cephalogram, we can look at we can look at the way different parts of the brain fire, and you can look at deeper regions of the brain like the brain stem kind of these lizard brain parts or you know, dyean cephalon parts like more ancestral or more i should say, more ancient parts of the brain. And you can look at the neo cortex, like the more recent parts of the brain. And when you show a vegetarian or a vegan a picture of meat, they get this sort of conscious aversion. But the subconscious part of their brain still goes, he's giving me. That's so you're saying, like evolutionary, evolutionarily, over time we have we are encoded to recognize something as nutrient giving and good for our body. But other parts of the brain which are like we've programmed during this lifetime based upon messaging and learning to be like, no, that's bad. But so we're just not in That's why they make plant food look like sausage and bacon. Yeah, you don't, you know, makes you think of is that? Yeah? Yeah? Why you take ship and try to get it to look like that? Like why why is it not its own thing? Like why why did veggie burgers or what they call him soybers? Why did they steal the burgers groove? But there's a there's an our part of this too. It was like they find that, um, I don't know how they measure, but there's a similar thing. Humans like overlooks and humans like shorelines, and it'd be like the rich, you know, like when you look at human just like the African diaspora. And when when humans started colonizing the world, it was you know, coastal routes, coastal routes and river routes, and so it seems that there's this sort of association with shorelines, land meats, water like the beach right triggers a thing where you're like, that's a good spot. And then also this idea that humans like and overlook. They like to be like, ha, I can see everything around me, and like it pleases some deep down thing in you to just see what's up. Not gonna be surprised. I know what's going on down there. People going in the restaurant and wanting the corner seat, and too, you know, their back is to both walls, so they can see periphectly everything around them. They don't have that feeling's gonna head behind me. You know. Yeah's some of my wife's say, because someone in Baja told me that. And you know it's like the old thing that you when you open a door and little woman going first, and someone house tell me that, Uh, you know, he's saying that's cultural. I mean, that's like it's cultural, but it's regional. And he was saying here it would be that you'd go in first to make sure everything's cool. You don't open the door and be like you going first. I'm not going in there. It's like you go in and it looks good. Things are cool. Everybody, your family comes in there, there's stand there and send them all in and then be like, good luck, I'll be through last the first. Do you guys know what percentage of vegetarians and vegans eat meat when they get drunk. It's astronomical. I think it's thirty to forty plus percent. I mean, like cortex, it starts getting you down to your reptilian brain. And that's not an uncontrovertible argument. That means for humans, you know, and you know, maybe it's even more, but it's a massive amount. You asked me earlier about truth. Well there's your truth, man. When you say that both like corner board dieters and vegans, uh, when they get drunk, they all eat pizza and they want their dough. It's possible. It's possible, And you know, I think you could you could say that, um, but I wonder I don't think you could draw the inference then that that's necessarily good for humans, just that that's like a uniquely addictive false food for humans, because nobody's gonna say, like, well, pizza is clearly a vitamin, like that doesn't work that way. But yeah, I think that we've figured out that's a whole separate discussion about the way that we've hijacked human satiety. Oh yeah, yeah. And then we've the fact that we've made these things super addictive, but evolutionarily, there's no such thing as pizza. There's the thing I wanted to mention earlier, um that that my wife does that our kids that I think is helpful and what I came to mind when we were talking about earlier, like that to try to get yourself into a position where you feel really good, where you have an awareness of your body, and to strip things away to a point where like, okay, like I feel optimal right now. Like let's say you go on you know, uh hunt for a week and you're not at home snacking on normal garbage, and you're really pouring it to it physically every day, your meal structure changes and at the end of your like, god, like, I never feel this good. And then you just like lazily go back into all this ship that makes you not feel good, but you hit a point where you're like, this is what I would like to feel, like wide awake, a lot of energy, sleep, very soundly at night, right, and you hit kind of like a thing that a thing to strive to and just listen to your body when when when our kids are in a situation like let they go to a birthday party and all of a sudden, whatever reason, someone's hands them like a piece of cake the size of a book. Right. Uh, She'll say she like introduced this idea, she said, like, go ahead, listen to your body, you know. And it's funny, man, when you remind him of that, they will not eat as much because just making them be like, oh that's right, and they'll be like, you know what, my body's telling me, I'm done. But they need to be invited. They need to be invited and reminded to be like ask yourself when you think you've had enough of that ship, and hopefully and they're like, oh, yeah, you know what I do. I think I have had enough of that ship, you know, and they're more likely to walk away and hopefully, you know, parents can help their kids or you know, realize after they binge on Halloween candy or the cake, when the kids are like I don't feel good, I feel anxious, or I'm just you know, like do you think this is related to the food you ate. Listen to your body. I love it. I think that's what we need to teach our kids. But you bring up this great point that we talked on her earlier. It's just how many of us have taken the time to get to the point where we know what that optimal feels like, and then you can see the deviance. It's signal versus noise. Yeah, I used to have it, uh where I tell my wife like, God, I'm like, it's just so depressed today. And she goes, let's walk back a step. Let's walk back step. Were you pretty drunk forty eight hours ago? And I was like, my god, I was I forgot about that. She goes, yeah, yeah, maybe maybe something. They're funny that we've had this conversation thirty times. YEA, totally true. All right. So Paul Saladino m D how long you've been a doctor for all a long a long time, Like you went out of college and no, I, um, I guess it depends when you described me as a doctor. But I finished residency. I've got a medical school six years ago. So yeah, I'm a little bit. I'm a little bit. Uh. Your non tread. I'm little bit. Yeah, I'm a little bit older than most docs who have been out that long because I took six years off after college and just played and explored into my own return. Yeah do you did you immediately And I wanted to ask this earlier, just never got to it, But did you immediately get into diet type stuff and or what was your original medicine that you're going to work in? Yeah? Yeah, I've always been interested in diet before. The reason I said a long time was because I before I went to medical school, I was a physician assistant and I worked in cardiology, so I wasn't a doctor technically, but I was working in medicine and you know, as a p A. And then I went back to medical school. And the whole reason I went back to medical school was because I got fascinated by these connections between diet and health. I just was like, you know, I think this is a big lever. Of course, stress and family and community and environmental talkins, but diet is the lever that I wanted to get interested in. So I always knew that in my work I was gonna be kind of drilling down these ideas. I obviously haven't been thinking about a carnivore approach for you know, since I was a p A. But that was the reason I went back to medical school was to think, like, how is this connected? The carnival Code is not your first book. It's my first book. It is your first book. So you're saying, so you're you're working on a cookbook. Okay, but that's not gonna happen yet. That's next year. Got you? So the Carnivore Code, Paul Saladino, it's out now, soon out now? And then how do people go find you online? The best place to find me is all of my stuff on my podcast is at Heart and Soil Supplements dot com. And what about when you're hanging out on so do you do stuff on social media? At carnivore M d oh, that's good, like that sel that's real good at carnivore MD. Carnivore M d dude, that's a great idea, man. Animal based medicine. You know people think about plant based. We're doing animal based medicine. That's a great handle. Thanks gratulation. Doctor was taken. So I got meat doctor. Girls are like, can I call you doctor meat? So I was like, no, I don't think that's a good one. Doctor Meat was the other choice between Dr Meat dot com. Alright, so check out the book. I mean we only just touched on like a smidge what's in the book. So check out the book The Carnivore Code Paul Saladino, Dr Paul, and it's out. Now. You look real good in your author photo. I mean that's my Do you look at him? Dad? You look like a mean lawyer. You look like a mean lawyer that's going to get you out of jail. Driving a car real fast and pull out a nine mill and oh yeah? Are you looks like a dude from the Fast and Furious out there? Man, that's a better way to I wish my editor told me that. Man, you're too serious in this photo. Oh no, you just look like, Yeah, you look like you're gonna think being an espionage thriller. Maybe I was trying to be a little James Bond. Here we're up again, some serious stuff here, you know you guys, Yeah, do not joke. We're talking about human Hell, we're talking yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm putting a suit on. Man. I smile a lot more than that picture makes me. Actually, I know that I think the putting the picture demands some respect. Man. All right, thank you very much for coming on my pleasure. It's pleasure and privilege. I'm gonna go home and just drink animal fat, not fry anything, drink it cold. Well, you could just eat your animal fat, your animal I'm gonna experiment this was this is it gonna change what's for dinner tonight? M M. I made the mistake of not uh no, no, because no, because we had fish cakes last night, and we had so many suckers that we now have a giant bowl of fish cake. So we're having exactly what we had last night tonight. I don't want to waste I'd rather be unhealthy then waste suckers. Hear that. But after the next night, I'm gonna tell everybody kids making misteake tonight. Raw you guys get a buzz buzz. Oh yeah, I'm flying high man, all hopped up on liver. I can't tell the creeper that you gave me. Yeah he threw u um, he threw some of that horse tranquilizer in the yond. All right, thanks a lot, man, Thanks Paul, Thanks guys. One