00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything presented by on X Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor where you stand with on X Doug, you'll be able to relate to this story. Guy wrote in and he got his uh, got his nipple pierced, And sure how I'm gonna be able to relate to this story. This is a joke I stole from Brian Cowen where if you're telling someone a story that has you tell us some story that has really in a crowd. You'll tell like some like perverse story and you'll say like, oh you know, Billy, this will you'll appreciate this, Bill, And you tell like some stories and people are like later they're like, why would you know? So that's why I wanted to correct it right away. So a guy guess his nipple piers and he writes in about it and he's out shooting his bow. You can imagine when this is going right, Oh god, yeah, very painful. I'm not sure that's something i'd be writing you about well, we've been talking about stuff people getting It started off with hunting scars, and Gala rode in to say she had jumped jumped to barb wire fence ripped her nipple, and then the ripple nipping nipple ripping stories have come in and rolled in. She was jumping a fence to go dove hunting, and yeah, we told the whole story anyways, and then she had made a joke about how her husband and later she said, my husband called that one scarface. And then other people wrote in, Um, just nipple ripping stories catches free people that are slower the take. He gets his nipple pierced. That's one. Like, that's one. I just I mean, God bless right, but I just don't just that not on my list before I went tongue piercing, Oh yeah for sure. But if you wrote down all the things you could get pierced in a list, and I had to start like from the top, and I know when it would end, I would that won't be real low, real low on my list. Um, but he catches it on his bow string, right, I would. I would if that happened to me, I would say that it happened, you keep it secret, No, I would say it publicly. Yeah, Like, I don't know how to say this, but in the last few years, but I I've increased. I've never been I've never I've never I've never been like reluctant to publicized when I do something stupid. But it's gotten the point where I really wanted out there. It's like a kind of a form of masochism. Well, you dumb motherfucker. People are gonna know about this too, you know, it's maybe it's like some kind of form of like self betterment, Like, well, I think it's I think it's helpful too, because the worst thing you can be as a blowhard. Yeah, so if you are generally competent person and you it's like under promising over delivering. And if you're very vocal about what you've screwed up, but you are generally competent, it's only gonna do good for you. And I have found that when I have like contractor a contractor over that staid as the plumbing problem is beyond me to figure out if I have a contractor over and I say, you know, I'm such a dumbass when it comes to this right, It just makes the whole thing go better. Then if you're in there acting like you but got it solved, do you know what I mean? You're also putting yourself in a position to learn a little bit more, probably too speak of things. Then it's good stories you could tell to the world and kind of get it, you know. Up a I saw a picture, but I didn't really get a story. Yeah, No, that's kind of where I was going with this. Yeah, so this is yeah, this is me putting on sackcloth and ashes right here. Is that a biblical reference? Mm hmm. What part of the Bible? I don't know, isn't the sa and ashes? And then also I think it's all I think it's in several places in the Old Testament. And I think that when one is wearing sat cloth and ashes there there it was a stupid way. It wasn't the right usage because it's usually you're repenting for something, but not repenting hat. I'm wearing a hair shirt in the Bible, I don't know when Usually when somebody's wearing set cloth and putting ashes on their face, they're they're also gnashing their teeth. That seems to be my boy, does that my four year old. I have a lament that does it. I think that nipple piercing just got replaced by you know where this is going is you're gonna tell them? Yeah, But first I got asked, you have a Llama shirt on right now. Somebody gave me this. It's a little tight on me. So it says Wikipedia fact number thousand, eight hundred one. Llamas like to wrestle. Yeah, yeah, you like that shirt. I don't know. Okay, go on, So what happens? Um? They do like to wrestle though, they do? Oh my god, I thought I was just being stupid and cut. They like to wrestle. Yeah, sometimes I go out in my pasture and break it up because I'm afraid one of them is gonna get hurt. Really, what is that, Doug? What was your thing about farm wrestling? Well, Duc threatened the farm wrestle. It was a typo. It was no, no, it was him. He was He was interested, like I don't know what that is, but I want to happen. He wanted something from me, and I said, well, I'll arm wrestle you for it. But I think I spoke into my phone and I said farm wrestling because farm wrestle anyway. So there are playing with your bow and arrows. Yeah, I Um, I was shooting out of my house this winter because it was bit or cold, you know, and I but I wanted to kind of keep up on the shooting a little bit. So I open was opening up the window and shooting out the window. And I went out to fetch my arrows. And I had an idea why I was out there. It's like, man, I cannot see my pins very good inside the house. So I went out into the garage and I got a got my head lamp and it was zip tieing to my site pin and then I got back in it. You know, things a little bright, you know, So I was you know, I was like there was a lot going on, and I freaking forgot that I had closed the window. Did you hit the target? I never found that arrow. It took me a few seconds to even realize what happened. I was like, what that window? Um? Here, uh another quick thing. I was just reading. I'm reading a book. Oh you know, Randall, you'll appreciate this watch out. You'll appreciate it for real. Remember I was recently asking you about the historian Elliott West because I'm enjoying his books so much, his collection of his essays, one of which is an essay that really counters the idea that Lewis and Clark had discovered, you know, from a European perspective, had discovered the like the great planes, right, And he goes on to explain, at the time Lewis and Clark's um journey, there were Indians on the Great Plains who had been to Europe, met the King of France, and returned home at the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition. So you forward me that story a long time ago. I know, Well, I wasn't got the book that that piece of podcast listener that sent that that essay in, and I went and got the whole book, and then I was trying to and I wanted to get the dope on Elliott West. So I asked Randall what Elliott West's reputation was, and he told me about Elliott west reputation. Then I get the book and I'm reading and there's a piece about the difficult job of a historian to uncover the unheard voices in history, meaning that we follow like oh, Lewis and Clark, right, And we know all these monumentas things, but like the the details of people's lives and people that weren't spoken for, right, people whose recollections aren't like like he talks about the paucity of of accounts from Chinese immigrants who worked in the mines. Right there, they didn't leave a written history, so now you're trying to like find these forgotten voices. And in there he's some about this guy and his brother that are going out to the California gold Rush. And they're leaving the East coast, going to California gold Rush by boat, so presumably going all the way around Patagonia at the time, right, no Panama Canal. His brother dies on the way, so there's two brothers. They leave and his brother dies on the way, and he gets a barrel of brandy and packs his brother into a barrel of brandy. The dead Brady packs into a barrel of brandy, gets to California and to bury his brother at home, promptly sets out on an overland journey with the bear, the brother packing the barrel of brandy to bring him back home. Him again, he's so intent on bringing his brother home. Why why was it easier to do that, and then if he opted to do the ocean one, do you have a bunch of stuff with him? He doesn't explain that, and I haven't dug into the footnotes to find where he pulled that story from. But I don't understand why. I was like, let's go one way. Maybe they were moving a bunch of Maybe they're moving stuff, and he left the stuff and it was quicker to packed him and Brandy just wanted to change the scenery. Yep. Um. A couple of other things I wanted to touch on real quick. A guy wrote in he's fishing and his brother hooks into their fishing on the East coast. Where were they fishing? Could fishing off Maine? And his brother hooks into a big fish. Uh no, I'll appreciate this. Yeah, hooks into a fourteen foot blue shot and they're just fighting it for the fun of it. And it's a strenuous fish fight. That's a sharp go. A couple of days later, he develops this horrible pain in his chest. I can't figure out what it is. Thinks he pulled the muscle. Can't figure out, but it gets worse and worse. Pain goes to a doctor and he's got this tumor that he didn't know about and would have killed him. And somehow, fighting that fish tweaks something in that tumor pressed up against the nerve and alerted him to the presence of that tumor, and they removed the tumor. Now he's fine. Well all the story. Go fishing fish more with your brother. Finally, here's here's one last one before we start, before we get some other stuff. Um guy uh takes his dad turkey hunting. His dad's sentimental type takes his dad turkey hunting. They his dad gets a turkey and he gives the kid the fan because he wants the fan mounted. The guy's dog destroys it. I think it was his dog destroys it. Wife's dog. Oh, you saw this story, wife's dog destroyed. Like, what's the difference between your dog and your wife's dog. Oh, I think it's just and it's the same as I think it's the same thing as if you tie the tune into your girlfriend's car. No, my girlfriend's dog, No, one says my wife. I guess they do, you know what I'm saying. Like, at a point, we have two dogs. My dog is the good one. My wife's dog is a bad one, and it's like the white's dog. My wife she decided to get it when we started dating. And and you don't, you've never acted like it was your our dogs. No, I mean, it's it's our dog, but it's her dog, she said, she's we're we're living together, and she said, um, I want you to know, I put a deposit on a chocolate lab puppy. So if we're gonna keep going with this thing, we need to move into a pet friendly apartment. And you, you know, do you want to go looking for apartments with me or not? And so she made that decision on her own, and he was going to move whether you did or not. Yeah, she was like, she was like, you want to you want to keep this thing rolling for another year's lease, We need to go find a pet friendly apartment. But she she put a deposit on a puppy and did that all on her own. And her dog. He's seven years old and he's terrible and then uh what does he do? Uh, he's just he's like now he's now on dog, big difference between your dog dog go on randall. Now he's just he's too much. He's just hyper. He's a yeah, he's a hunter pound lab and lab people are overwhelmed by them. We actually had someone come over for dinner and they hadn't seen him in about a year, and they said, oh, wow, you know, you guys are great. Most people I know wouldn't have kept that dog, no joke, and and I mean we looked at each other like, I don't really know very many people that would get rid of a dog, you know, just send him on his way. But yeah, we got that from someone else. You kept that thing around, didn't you. So But then right before we got married, we got a second dog and I got to pick that one, and she's perfect. She's an angel. That's your dog, Rosie. Yeah, that's my daughter's name. Kind of it's a good name. You know. The only thing I have to sorry, go ahead, go ahead. The only thing I have to compare that too, is when I was younger that when um, we would get one of my siblings that I would get in trouble. It seemed like, uh, the one the parent who was pointing that out to the other parents, they would say, your son did this. Yeah, well that's because they're seeing that behavior. I would guess being married and having kids, they're seeing that that behavior the result of your influences. Well they said that. They're saying, like, because of you. What they's what they're saying is because of you, your son, the parts of our child that are that oh to you are responsible for X. Can I get it back to this thing? His mas dog eats it. He then his mom and dad must be divorced. So is my dog eats the His mas dog eats the You follow me, yeah, mom, mom, Mom? And yeah, okay, well by the people might duck ducks, probably losses. So I was just thinking childhood. I'll make a flow diagrams. A guy. There's a guy, we'll call him the kid. He takes his old man turkey hunt. His old man shoes turkey. The kid then takes the old man's turkey fan. His job is to mount the turkey fan as a gift to the old man. He then takes it to his mom's house to store it. The mom's dog, if they are divorced, it's because the mom's dog is still right out for vengeance, eats the turkey fan. He then goes and gets a different turkeys fan, mounts that gives it to the old man. And never tells the old man the truth. So the old man when people come over his house, he's stuck in the awkward position of pointing it to the on the wall and being like, see that, and then telling all about what happened, when in fact it's a lie. But the old man is not stuck in that position because he doesn't know. He doesn't know. The guy is like, am I that immoral? What do you think? I think it's keeping the peace, you know, between the parents, the divorced parents. I'm reading that into it. I don't know. Oh, I'm just guessing if that's the case. Though I agree with you, if there really is at keeping the peace, that was a part of it. I feel like he would have said that it was a part of like that his folks were divorced and now the ma know. I just think he felt bad. Yeah, it's not like he's trying to like preserve some little semblance of you know, some little semblance of family, you know, dignity this left after this tumultuous divorce. He's not laying out that level of trouble. It all comes down to whether he can live with his little white lie or not. I think that it's immoral, and I would tell the old man. You might not remember this. Are you innocuous? Do you remember? Well, let me tell you a lie. Let me tell you something that happened to me, and you'll know all the players probably has something to do with something. So when we were little, real little, you know, how daddies to take us, like you could go fishing on your birthday. Yeah, it was my flied. I don't remember that, like you would often get the you would get the play hooky if you wanted an ice fish on your birthday, because I had a February birthday or whatever, different activities. He took me out and a guy caught a big northern not not. Our party was me and Dad and I think alcoholic was with us and a guy do people know who that is? No, you've introduced him before, but it's a great name. But he would develop such a thirst. He would develop such a thirst, uh during his outings that he offered, couldn't had to get home. Um. Another guy catches a pike and he doesn't want and Dad wants it, wants it, so Dad takes it and it freezes up like how they do. And my dad says to me hey and throws it to me and I catch it. Uh, and he says, you just caught a pike. And I later told Ron Spring, who was a commercial bait fisherman. Ron Spring made a living catching wigglers and digging worms and catching mentals. I told Ron Spring, I caught a pike. I don't I don't know if I if it's a good use of our time to do a post mortem on those two lies. But that one, that one seems far worse. It's just I'm putting myself, Yeah, that's real bad. But I'm putting myself in the role not of the dad. I'm putting myself in the role of the sun where he's living with a lie. But there's the whole bit that that that the dad actually did get a turkey, and it's just, yeah, you know you didn't get ship and then you made it. I'm not putting myself in the role to dad. I'm putting myself in the role. And I it would have cost him anything to come clean and be like, look, here's a deal. This is what I did, is what happened. Let's go get another turkey next spring. What I would do is record this and send it to him. And let him put it together or tell him after he gets into their turkey, because maybe it won't be like you know, Pops, you'll you'll appreciate this. Okay, let's get on what we're fixing the talk about. Oh, not one last thing. Rand Williams is here, yes, uh minus his pituitary gland. Yes. How does it feel? Um? Are you as smart as he used to be? No, I'm not really categorically not really. Yeah, tell me more. Um, A lot of issues with memory and um, short term and long term memory. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know. I was joking when I said that we can cut this out. So you've been feeling you've been since since it's been it's been a pretty uh, it's been a pretty rough road, just ups and downs. But yeah, for I mean, I had a lot of symptoms that were pretty similar to like a traumatic brain injury. Really. Yeah, I wasn't worth of that the bad that I asked. You know, I'm pretty upfront about it all. Are you replacement? Yeah, I'm on. Um. I'm on a couple of different hormone replacements like testosterone and thyroid hormone, and I take hydrocortison, which replaces cortisol um. And then I've got stimulants, I've got antidepressants, I've got sleeping pills, I've got the whole mix. Are you serious? And and and growth hormone. So every morning I'm like Barry Bonds really, yeah, yeah, it's the real deal. Oh, I mean I knew that this is a big deal, but I didn't know that you were. Really I didn't know there's that much to it. Yeah, No, it's been a pretty serious Uh, it's been been a pretty serious um struggle. But better than the alternative. I'm all good. Yeah, you're on the right side of the gray. He did get big, he did get a big bear. I did, Yeah, I got a big bear. Um still hunting still, that's true. Yeah, I just meant in the general sense, I have tags for this, not yourder get in trouble. No, Yeah, it's been pretty crazy. I m start a new job around that time, and I had to postpone the start of that job for about a month while I went to California and got surgery. And yeah, so it's gonna learned a lot about the human body and a lot about myself. And uh, yeah, I didn't mean to make this so serious. No, you didn't. But I guess what's happened is you being so casual about it. It was like effective, Yeah, at least in the way you're putting it forth. You were putting it forth to your friends. That just seemed the casual about it. So I thought it was more casual than it is. No, I mean I've been uh, I mean I haven't. I haven't held any secrets, um, but I haven't really broadcast a whole lot of this stuff. I don't put any of that on social media or anything like that. But it's kind of hard to This is a little bit worse than the UM. Well, yeah, no, I mean it's some of the symptoms like I can't hide, you know, like sometimes for a while there, I was like crying all the time and just have very little control over my emotions and all that stuff. So do you enjoy movies more now? You know. I've always been a crier at the cinema, so that that hasn't changed much. But yeah, and it's pretty crazy all these chemicals and processes in your body, and UM kind of take for granted that at all works. But we're figuring it out, and luckily I've had a lot of help with that. So yeah, anything else, No, I'm typing something. I just feel like I'm at the doctor's office my symptoms, and you're taking notes. Um, if you read the doctor's office, another dude will come in here a minute and ask you the saint set of questions. And I didn't have a cope when I like I was saying, like I was saying to the other person that was just in here a minute ago. Yeah, No, I mean it's yeah, I mean just to some up. It's been tough, but it's all good. We're figuring it out. Damn. Yeah, Yeah, it's weird. Later I'll ask you if there's anything else we can do to help. I don't think so. Um, well, back when you had your pituitary glad you uh all the people here, So the reason what what? What? One of the commonalities I'm trying to say, one of the commonalities that binds our friend Randall Williams and Doug during my brother matt Ronello is that they were all uh participants for good and bad um in the documentary film that we recently released called Stars in the Sky and we're gonna we want to talk about this a little bit and kind of do you know talk about the making of an aftermath of and the themes that we explore in the movie the movie if you uh, if you want to go watch this and that that's what this is really about. I learned that there's a writer, Ian Fraser, and he always says that he's written a lot of book books, and he says he likes the very cleanly um in the beginning of his books, tell people what a book was about. So he begins a book with the line, this is a book about Indians. You want if people know what they're getting into. Um. So yeah, the goal this here is that you will go watch this movie somewhere to watch the movie, honest, you have to go to you know you have. It's called Stars in the Sky a Hunting Story. But what's the website? Stars in this guy film? And it brings you to Vimeo and you gotta pay some money. But it's like really helpful to us if you do. You gotta pay some money and you can stream it and download it. Super helpful if you do. We started the film like it was kind of such it's such a weird story how it went because we started the film. Do you even remember that's how I met Brody who now works with us. When we film the first bit of the film was several summers ago. Shifties in the film and she's five, Well does that help? Well, it was no more than five years ago. Oh, I see, But but that was not even when we started making it. Oh, I started making it several summers ago. You didn't film me first, No, the first thing, like after me, you filmed me in fifteen or sixteen? Was it really that long ago? Oh? My god? It was right after we did the first podcast, which was like June of and we had we had already filmed parts of it then because the first like, going into it, we knew we were gonna do, we kind of knew we were gonna do two things going into it. It was gonna be this exploration of um sort of the mindset and conflicts and contradictions and loves and hates and worries and joys of contemporary America and hunters. Ah and I felt that, you know, when we started working on it, we felt that to do this you needed to kind of show like what a hunting trip looked like, to demonstrate to people what it could be and how it could feel and smell and look. And so the first thing we did in the movie was we just went and recorded. We went and filmed a hunt, and we filmed the hunt in Alaska for Sia blacktail deer. And it was meant to in some ways. If people watch Me Eat Meat Eater or the TV show You kind of Get You, you can almost kind of imagine what this hunt might be. Though it's it's structured very differently, but just like this kind of like through line. It starts with someone leaving, leaving a building and striking off into the woods, and the ends with someone coming back to a building. Um, and what I thought when I when I mapped out in the movie like the things I wanted to talk about, the thing, the themes I wanted to explore and ask various hunters from around the country their impressions of and uh, I realized that all of these topics were things that could pretty easily spring off of conversations that one might have or thoughts that one might have, or spring off actions and things that could happen on a hunt. So this through line of this hunt winds up being winds up presenting these conversation starters and later over the one of being Over the years as we were able to do it, we interviewed a great many people from all around the country and asked them uh their particular thoughts and this is kind of where some of the contradictions came into place, their particular thoughts about these themes and issues that come up, and then assemble this thing like like a documentary film. And in an added voice I wanted to bring in, it's it's I'd like to actually want to get him on an added voice that I brought in as a philosopher and an animal rights ethicist named Robert Jones. And he's a steady line as being someone who's not connected to hunting and is actually adversarial to hunting, like opposes hunting outright. And he also speaks about these different themes we did we we want to interview in add that. He's definitely he's definitely a star of the dock. I think that very credible. He really adds a lot. You know, it's a very smart move I think on your part on directing that. But I mean just to have both view points. You know, everybody that I talked to is like, I mean, good thing you had him in there, you know, one thing you always get from people is you always get get people. We can kind this a lot because when you're like dealing with the ideas, people get angry when you give someone a voice. They think that giving someone a voice in media, the giving someone a voice is tacit approval of what that person has to say, or that you by giving someone a voice, you endorse what they have to say. And I hear about it a little bit for his inclusion in the movie, like why would you give voice to him? And then when we had Rob Bishop on the podcast and like like we have a pretty consistent pro public lands, like like you know, as a company whatever, we have a pretty consistent pro public lands philosophy. And Rob Bishop is um I don't want to call him anti public lands at all, but he's you know, uh opposes a lot of the things I believe in around public lands management. And people are like, I can't believe you get Rob Bishop a voice. Like Rob Bishop is the Chairman of the House Natural was the chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee. I don't know that he's lacking a voice, Like I wasn't like I went and found someone who had no way to I mean, the guy could talk to anyone wants anytime he wants, and this animal rights guy as a professor at a school in California, doesn't lack a voice, but it want to be in one of That was probably one of my favorite interviews that we did for that because it was so it was really challenging to It was challenging the kind like if we were sparring um. It was challenging. He brought up some really challenging ideas. So if uh, like Richard Spencer R Kelly haunted, would you have them on UM's It's a really good question, Like, knowing what we now know about R Kelly, if we were doing a film, you know why I probably wouldn't. I probably wouldn't because what he's most known for, which is sex abuse of minors in the case R Kelly, what he's most known for, isn't what I would be asking about. It was so peripheral to the conversation that that aspect of their personality or that aspect of their biogopy would be this this like really weighty thing in the room. Yeah, we just sat down and did an interview with We did an interview with Bo Jackson about his relationship with hunting. Um. And as part of that, you can imagine that we talked a lot about his career as an athlete, because it would sort of be the it's like weird thing to have not come up, the elephant in the room. Yeah, and so in that case, I see, like that's good Devil's advocating. But in that way, yeah, I was trying to put you in a spot. I was just legitimately it was legitimately curious. Oh yeah, but but this dude was fascinating. Um, Like his main thing is that that the main point he tries to get across. You have to watch because I could, like I kind of cheery rather than like picking moments where he didn't do great. I picked I felt like I that I should say, ah, that we working on it. Kind of picked his best points, you know. And and he countered like he has really good counters for things where hunters love to Hunters love to talk about it's natural, right, Oh, Man's always hunted. If we didn't hunt, we wouldn't be here today. It's natural. And he brings up there are a lot of things that are natural fratricide, matricide, right, that have always occurred. Does that it's yeah, does that mean it's like, does that in and of itself in an endorsement of the activity? Right? That's not it's not a vindication of hunting that's always been done. I mean we've always, like in the Grand in the like from a historical historical perspective, we've always not driven cars, you know. Yeah, So let me finish my I want to finish my little preamble here. Then were gettato a couple of other things, cause Janni has Yanni has some uh he's thought about how how to discuss this, and he's got a good idea for it. But the preamble being but I had this idea that it felt very cohesive. Um, and then we talked to so many people, and then you run into this problem where how long is something? So then you in the end you have ninety minutes or so hundred minutes, and you go through the very very painful process of narrowing this down to where you have a hundred plus hours of interviews with people that you need to fit into one minutes, and then you wind up with something where someone would watch it and not. This isn't saying something is good or bad. It's just a fact of life. Someone would watch it and never have and never have any idea what it was, how you framed it in your head, because it only makes sense, right, the framing of it only makes sense to someone who felt that they were seeing like a process that they were trying to put in place. When it's all done, you can't expect that people would watch you go like, oh, I see what you're doing, you know, because so much falls away, Like when we started this show that you're listening to right now, I had like a precise idea of what I was trying to do. No one has ever written and said, you know what, I see what you did there. It's just it lives in your head only you know. But the the guiding through line is just these these these themes, And we're gonna ask you guys a little bit about your feelings about these themes and thoughts that you might have had um and and you could speak to like kind of like what you meant and what was represented in the movie, or if things that you wish you said and hadn't said. And one thing I want to start with with Matt and and this was like in there almost up to the end, I don't think it's in there. It's not in there. It was the ending for a long time. For a long time, the ending of the movie, almost the ending of the movie was you saying, if you woke me up a hundred years from now is how many years he had said, if you woke me up hundred years from now and told me there was no hunting, I wouldn't be surprised and I wouldn't care. M hm. I don't remember saying that, but but yeah, I guess I still I still that still were saying, I don't believe in hunting for hunting's sake. I'm just stuck being this. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't think that. I don't think that hunting makes someone a better person. Mm hmm um. If you want somebody to be a better person, there's better, other, more constructive uses of their time. It's like I was going to advocate for something after that that's gonna carry on after I'm gone. It wouldn't be hunting. I mean, reading books maybe, or volunteering, you know, being a good civil servant. It's far more important to me than the future of hunting whence I'm gone. If I if I care about hunting at all after I'm gone. It's because you know, I it's I guess it would be. I'd have to be convinced, and I partially am that it's it's good for wildlife conservation. I guess there's part of me that wants to look down from the heavens and see wild animals running around still, But yeah, I don't. I don't see hunting is making people better. When we were assembling the movie, we took all of the people that we interviewed and asked them about their hopes and fears for the future. Everyone was really when when talking about like a future everyone um, except for two individuals, my two brothers. We're the only people out of everyone we talked to who didn't in some way worry about what would be lost. Hm. And these are two the people that I know that like it the most. Yeah, I uh, I just watched Dr Mary for the first time a couple of nights ago, and I do remember, like, I'm proud of the way I described it, that I'm I'm stuck being a hunter. I would, I mean I would just I would have an identity crisis that forty eight years of age would be just kind of jarring. If all of a sudden I stopped hunting, you know, I don't know what I do or how I would relate to what might what would preoccupy my thoughts, you know. So, um, that's why I guess I hunt my kids recently. I brought us up a couple of times, I think, but my kids were recently asking about like why we had to go? Um, I think it was ice fishing on a cold day, and like why do we have to go ice fishing? It's so cold? So well, you know, I can think of a bunch of reasons, but one would be you'll get to hang out with way cooler people if you learn how to do this. And so when I think, when I think about, like if someone says, oh, it's gonna be in fifth years, it will be gone, I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to have a huh. It would like really make me sad. But a lot of it would be nostalgia. Nostalgia for like a verse, like the version of it that I experienced and imagine that other people would experience. Yeah, yeah, there's I mean, so many of my positive memories about hunting our about the people I hunt with. I mean that is, it's the it's um doing these adventurous things with UM people I care about. I don't like. I don't like it as a means for meeting new people very much. I just have this small group of people that I hunt with. If I'm gonna make friends with somebody, I don't want it to be like through hunting. Probably that's it's in a vehicle for forming friendships for me really, although like a lot of a lot of my closest friends I've met through hunting, but I don't want to. I don't use it in that way. You know, like if if you're at a wedding reception and someone looks across the room and says, oh, you know that guy likes the hunt a lot, you don't feel like a gravitational point. I want to talk to him about it, and then but if if he's if he's, I mean, there's just some first first out and show me all the big ship they got, and then I'm gonna be jealous, and then I'm gonna wish that you would go they'd go away. You know, you could always I met Doug and Janice through hunting, and I could see very good friends of mine, so I don't know. I just really think this out. Well, you know what you always on the conversation is gonna go wrong when you had like and when you had a wedding reception and you go and talk to the guy that someone says like the hunt, you'd be like, oh, yeah, what you has been what have you been hunting? You're like, oh, yeah, we've been getting a lot of turkeys used twelve gauge. Always, you always know that should be the twentiest thing, you know, Oh yeah, oh yeah, I had a guy. If it's not like, oh yeah, where do you guys go, I had a guy on the ranch where my the my wife co owns and works Dude ranch. Another co owner. He likes to careful now he likes to talk hunt once in a while. Careful. You should have set it up different. Yeah, yo, thank you, thank you. Man. I would not. I wasn't even thinking about that. I guess I've grown comfortable with this podcasting thing. I just think it's conversation. Yeah, you know, No, you're right, You're absolutely right. It would. It could be devastating. I don't know, we'll cut it out. I don't know if she listens to this or not. We'll cut it out. Um no, no, no, no, you don't need to cut it out. I can keep this part in. Yeah, really, yeah, I'm willing. I mean, we didn't don't even say where I was really going with it. There's an everything you say in the movie, and you do say this in the movie, and I love the line what I just I was now I want to know you can ask him later. There was another there was another person, different in a different locale, and they said, they said to me exactly, you say, when when when? Then your armor? The weapon is the first thing that comes up. It's just a bad sign of renversation is gonna go. And uh, because I just think of weapons is something that you used to slow down animals so that you can cook and eat them. I don't give a funk about that ship, you know, halftime, I can't even remember what calumber my goddamn rightful. Um so uh he said, so what do you used to kill them? And he wanted me to go over fifty five? You know, I said, a shotgun. Your ship's a shotgun with bullets, and um, the thing you say in the movie, and I love it, and people it's like the one line that people bring up the people like the most in the movie. And I don't even know what you really mean by I mean, I know what you mean, but but you're saying, Uh, you said if if used to have cabbages head legst them too. Yeah, I think that. So is it that you like to hunt things that have legs? Well, I like to hunt things that are motile. I mean I also does that word mean that they move? Yeah? Not mobile? Well? Yeah, I think it's just another way of saying the same thing. I'm checking. There's also well, you know what a one animal? It doesn't move? Is there an organism that doesn't move? Is cecil? It's a cecil organism. No, you're right, capable of motion. Yeah, and I like I like to gather cecil organisms. I just gathered some horse mushrooms the other day. How you've been doing a while asparagus kicking ass? It's been really, really good. My PA's been stinking every day. That's good. Can you tell people a hot tip and find a while to asparagus? You taught me? Oh uh, you spot it driving down the river in your boat at full tilt. You gotta look for last year's stems. Do you have it in Wisconsin. Yeah, ditch, we we have that too, but no, that, yeah, is a pretty pretty abundant there um if you know where to go. You know, yeah, your riverboat isn't fast, but you've I've seen you spot it at full tilt. Oh yeah. And and and you know I can also spot green new stems full tilt. Really yeah, I just kind of get a search image in your brain. Tell them about to tell them about last year's growth, because this is a hot til. Yeah, so you look for the last year's stalks, as you know, and it puts off a branch at a perfect, perfect ninety perfect perpendicular to where the branch with the stem creates two perfect forty five degree angles. And that's key because there's a lot of other plants that superficially look like you know, the death stems look superficially like. But the way that branch comes off that stem like you could square a house with that. Something. Bit man, I've been finding something like I don't know why, but it seems like at the tail end of the season they get fatter, and I've been finding some freaking quarter pounders lately. Figure around as a silver dollar. It's like a steak knife. Yeah, it's just as good, right, And that's interesting. And I realized that because I got some that was growing in a garden from Doug's wife. That's the easiest way to find it is just to actually propagate it. And when she first over in that part of my garden over there, when she first busted him out, I'm kind of like, oh, those big old things, because when you like, I never buy asparagous it looks like that in the store because it's gross. Oh, but out of the ground, man, you can get like a carrot stick. Yeah, I mean just unbelievable the difference, Like you said, just as tender and as tasty as the little guy. It's all non native, right, yeah, it's all like fair It's like Farrell house cats, but fairrell asparagus. So uh if cabbages had legs that hunt them too, well. I think that Dan Doty was there that day and he asked me, what is it about meat? And that's what precipitated all right, So I guess there. I don't want to, I just just seemed to be there, like that's all about meat. It's like, I love to eat all kinds of food. I love vegetables, I love. It's just so yeah, that's that's the product of hunting. The food product of hunting just so happens to be meat. But if if cabbages ran around the woods, I would freaking love to go hunt me a cabbage. You don't like, not that you won't do it like you're eating restaurants Like the rest of us, you don't relish buying meat. Well, with one exception, my it just so happens that my three favorite foods are um conventionally raised meat products. Tell me more do um bologny No, chicken wings with ranch, chicken wings with blue cheese, and chicken wings are my three favorite foods. Well, that changed because your old favorite food was pizza and your second, No, your favorite food was hot wings. Your second favorite food was pizza. And then one day, this is a big deal, this is a big moment. I like the story. One day you go into a restaurant and they had hot wing pizza, which was not and you ordered it and were surprised that it wasn't good and it really likes shook it up too much, And remember how delighted you were. It was like the first time we when I'd done I think Nita was there and we were in Ennis maybe and we went to some random, you know restaurant that's that was the first year was opened, probably last year was open. And you looked at the menu and you're like, this is my kind of place. All was was like pizza, hot dogs, wings, and you were one of everything and ate one of everything and just happy it's convenient. Do like I do like the bar food we and another thing I really like. And I just gotta say this and I'll stop talking so much, But I really like I'm asking you questions right now. I really like I'm working around the way you don't deal poker. I'm going to Okay. I like, um uh, some thin sliced turkey on wonder bread with a bunch of mayo and cranberry sauce, like Thanksgiving leftovers. That's a favorite food. So you've expressed like you don't relish buying meat. I don't buy him. I don't buy me because it's it's a it's a major treat and my wife, but you don't you go buy wife ways probably a hundred and what do you think thirty pounds? Yeah, she's one thirty. He eats as much food or more food than I do. And I'm not exaggerating that woman can freaking monster truck some chicken wings, and so it's kind of like something we do together. So so, uh, what I'm getting at here? Let me tell you where I'm going with this. You don't relish buying meat, No, I don't. I don't buy me except when I go to a restaurant. Yeah, and a lot of that, like it comes from a couple of places, I think. And you've expressed this, and I'm sure you're like, I'm sure you're feelings about it evolved and changed over the years, because all of our feelings evolved and changed over the years. But I think that you are a naturally very frugal person um, and you would never be like, well, why would I buy something when I have like an approximation of it in my freezer? And you're not any like, sure, it's more convenient that it's all like ready to roll and thought out, but you'll go home and thought helped meet out and your microwaiting and eat it because you're frugal. But there's also a little bit of ethics mixed in there. There's some ethics and there's also another dimension that I tried to explain um when I was interviewed for the documentary didn't make the cut. And I can see why because I wasn't very clear and I probably won't be now either. But there's this child like it's from child hood. This is where this feeling emerged. Was in childhood for me, this giddy sense of getting something from free, to eat from nature, and that is an abiding component of what drives me to haunt and gather is in fish? Is that what that giddy feeling of, like you doing it yourself and getting uh your food from nature for free. Like it's like it's like a thing that I've been thinking about. We've been eating a lot of Morrel's from dogs Farm that he picked. Morels are good. A right, they're good, but they're not that good. They're not that good. I mean they're great, but people's enthusiasm for listen, listen, they ain't chicken wings no here. I like, Okay, I like Morrel's, love Morrells, but peoples and people who look for and find Morrell's have an enthusiasm that exceeds the flavor of the morrell Yeah, it's I it's like, it's not like they're like, dude, come may, I'm eating a shipload of Morrell's, whether I got to buy them or not. That's not true people that hunt Morrel's. If all of a sudden there was a drought and no Morrel's came up, It's not that they're gonna be driving around calling to stores to find Morrel's because they have to have morels. They morels are great because you find the sun's bitches growing out of the dirt. Yeah, and then they're great, and they're what I'm saying. It's like, you can't un you can't untank, like you can't disconnect the two. I remember when I did. I did a deep dive on mushrooms for a number of years, three or four years, when you were infatuating, learning a lot of different SPECIs. You got to where you knew more about mushrooms than anyone I knew. And I remember learning that they have no calories, and that was very disappointing to me because I'm like, yeah, being it really so this isn't like getting a food item anymore. UM have protein in them? Oh dude, it really it's interesting. They shure taste like they what they taste like freaking meat man when you put a little oh good yeah flower on them and brown them in a bunch of butter. And I'm like, good, do you guys see what I'm saying. I'm not this in your morals? Man, Okay, well let me see this, Doug was less than you bought aom Morrell. I have never bought m call and I've never sold a morale either. I've given a lot of them away. And I agree completely what with what you're saying about the fascination with going out there. And I mean, I was so frustrated this spring because I'm looking and I'm looking, and you know, I'm going one out almost daily because the conditions are right and I've got great spots. And my wife and I were out looking for him, and and uh we we came around and we had taken a pretty good hike and ironically found this big batch that that you saw, and then you got some right behind the barn, I mean, you know, a hundred and fifty yards from the house, and uh, I had left that tree alone, but we came around there and it's just this fascinating sort of magical thing to come there and see this little village of of these little little village, you know, a little scaring and and you sem and then you look away for a second and you look back and okay, I know there was one there? Where did it go? And we we spent Trish and I spent an hour and a half. They're picking Morrel's and just keep looking and you know, and and Trish said, we picked a hundred and moreles there and she said thank you for everyone that she got the earth well in the I mean, there's it's the magic of it. It's it is. You can take somebody that's never seen him morell, never eating him morell morell hunting, and they'll get that like that about it. And with those things too, Like that that makes an extra special is that you can't farm them, right, something wild about them? Yeah, they're wild. It's like people get excited about the asparagus. But you can go to the store and buy them, but it's still toials of times cooler to find it. You can grow. They completely defy cultivation. I think that I think that when you see Morrell, it's wild grown. I don't think you can I don't think yeah, I don't think you can cost effectively, But I think I know that you can buy these little pots where you water them. And that's my understand is no one's figured out a way to like make money could state somewhout You just your relationship, which is like the meat, right, and you talk about like isn't like the meat because I hunt cabbages? Um. But then you have some pasture land at your house and you guys raise up you and your bodies raise up some lambs. We did for a while, Yeah, and then you know you'd go out and have to dispatch, say the lamb, and you didn't like that, hated it. No, I know I'd not relish that. There was like and then I was, let me do, let me lay one more part on. Then you can talk about the whole experience because you don't like that, kind of dread it. And then but then you really enjoy the lamb meat. M hmm. So is that connected to hunting or is that as different from hunting is picking asparagus? You know what I mean? Like, like, what is that in the movie we see your place and you're kind of a little livestock area there. Um. So the raising the sheep. I was doing that with some friends that they hunt a little bit but not a lot. And they got young families and they were using the meat and I would take a little bit of it, but it was more to encourage them to spend time at my house and just like something to do with my community of people, you know, my friends. Um. I think that when I kill an animal hunting, it's like it's it's usually after a tremendous amount of work. So the feeling of accomplishment kind of kind of offsets the sadness a little bit, you know, kind of overrides it a little bit, because there's so much work involved in finally getting something. But when you kill domestic animals, just the sadness without that other component to it. Does that make any sense? I puzzle over with the because people like, oh, you'd like to kill, but then when you go out to like then maybe some people don't, but anyone that I have that we're some livestock, but I know they might really love to hunt, but never man, anyone who's really excited to go out and shoot the pig. Right. Yeah, I like hunting right up to the point where I pull the trigger, and then I stopped liking it, to the point where the animal is starting to become me really yeah. Huh. The other that that, you know, if you're tracking something or have to finish something off as too nerve racking and and sad you're watching the life go out of something. I know the sadness is really because I've seen so many people cry but then be really glad that they did it. But I don't. I don't, And I know people talk about it, and I feel like I've even paid some lip service to it. But when I really think about I'm really honest about there's not. The sadness is only when it goes bad, when you make a mistake, then awful. But no to see something go bam down on the ground, never sadness. Never, it's the only one is ugly. Um, Doug, one of the themes Matt was themeless, mass conversation was steamless, meaning I asked you about all the themes, but your perspectives are just interesting perspectives. But Doug is like part, like Doug's role in the film as part of a theme. Okay, Um, did you feel manipulated by the movie? Not at all? Did you feel manipulated? No? I felt like I hope you weren't because I was. I was kind of hoping that that's who you were. I mean, you look, no, let me tell you what. Let me tell the way in which Doug seemed like Doug to me. No, it's Doug, it's Doug. It's Doug. Absolutely. But if you were manipulated, the manipulation occurred with what's said before you're segment, what's said before your profile piece, and and the first sentence that comes out of your mouth in the movie, which was not the first sentence that came out of your mouth when we sat down to interview. So there was a manipulation of what you said, and there was a manipulation of when you said it, the amount of emphasis you might put on it, and then to have it be the first thing out of your mouth really sets that teas up a point. And it starts out with the animal ethicist Doug. Segment is kicked off by the animal ethicist and animal rights activists who says the most egregious form of hunting, mm hmmm, I know where you yeah, And then the next sentence you hear is Doug saying yeah, I think you said. Yeah, I guess I'm a trophy hunter or yeah, I do some trophy hunting. Which I'm gonna let you go. I want to, I just want to. I just wanted that scene a little bit. And then the movie tells the story of a particular deer and the way it would the way I feel that it might have been taken by you to be slightly manipulative. Is it takes your life story and family story and the death of your brother, um to sort of serve this thing of to sort of make this point that when you go into a person's house and you see a dead deer hanging on their wall without asking them, you will never know. You might have assumptions about what that thing represents, and assumptions about what it stands for and what it's supposed to mean and what it's supposed to make you, as the looker feel, but you will never really know when you look at something dead hanging on someone's wall. Is kind of what even like your story is so beautiful as a free stay thing, but it's kind of like it it's taken to service that point, like, hey, let's yeah, let's talk about a dead deer on the wall. I know, just the fucking deer that dog's house. Um. No, I didn't feel manipulated, but by it at all. And in fact, I think before we even started to roll camera, you said that you had been speaking with this fellow Robert Jones said his name and who I was my favorite. He was my favorite person in the in the film, I mean, other than everybody in this room. But um, it was a good save. But I mean because I like the way he asked the questions or made the points, and I couldn't disagree with his ideas. Um, it was more the exploring of him that I was more interested in. Um. And in the case of the of of that deer you had before the cameras rolled, you said, uh, so we were just talking to this animal ethicist and and uh and you said so he said the most egregious thing is trophy hunting and and and you said, well yeah, before the cameras rolled in the bar, sitting in the bar, yeah, And and you remember the deer hanging on the wall full of deer, I said, well, there's a bunch of trophies right there, like you know, what's the um And we didn't talk about those deer at all. We talked about a particular deer in the story behind it. And my it's interesting because one of the things my wife said about about the movie is that you were a younger man when this was made, because of the time had passed and and not only was he a younger man, I was you know, my my thinking. She was saying, you were a younger man. Your wife said you you were a younger man. Yeah, she's noticed that. That That wasn't as great feeling frisky after watching um anyway, I don't remember exactly I watched it the second time, remember you looking like that? I watched it the second time the other night with my daughter in Chicago, and um, that was a really interesting thing too. So how things have evolved for me since? Um as we tell as as the as you tell in the In the movie, UM my brother, my younger, my late brother, Matthew, UM and I had talked about deer management, and um it was conservation based deer management, but really a part of it was, you know, we're sort of we've been killing with these little forkis, you know, the thing that we get a basket full of and um uh and we had started talking about deer management, things that we could do better, and you know, habitat work and all that sort of thing. And then and then he died tragically, and um, I kept that that ideal alive and uh we I think we did a good job of of of conservation, you know, dear management, and it sort of culminated in the fact that I got to kill it here. And uh, it was you know, as I said in the movie, it was sort of a remembrance of that of that whole process. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, we manipulated our landscape and we let all these bucks go and then all these things happened and then and and it wasn't that. It was much more. I mean, the first thing I thought about when I killed that here it was him and uh and and what we had done and how close it was to where that at all happened and uh and so it was really the remembrance of a whole the whole um group of things that happened in over a period of time. And and then it wasn't that important. I mean that deers is real important symbolically. But what I've learned since is that uh, or acted on since, is that the conservation and was way more important. Um any of those restrictions or attitudes that we had about not you know, shooting younger deer. That's all gone now because the thing that's more important now is conserving to me, conserving the resource and doing the right thing for the species. And um, far down that road we want to go. But because of where our farm is located, that's you know, it's a part of it. And so to me it was just sort of people you're talking about because they're gonna confused if now, Oh yeah, I'm sorry, but but it brings up, it brings up the NFC, the point where you and I find it's all the time, like you know, you always leaving these these sort of time stamps by things you say. But then earlier I mentioned to Matt how people evolve over time, and and your understanding of yourself and understanding of things around you change, and you try to Um, you know, I have these certain like things I feel consistently throughout life, and I explained them in a way, and then I started to realize that that I know that the thing is there, like let's say there's some like undeniable that there's some undeniable truth, Okay, they can't be debated, that it's there, Like there's an objective reality that's there. And and I feel that that that objective reality stays constant through life. And I'll look at that objective reality and I'll say to people, um, you know why that's that way, right, it's that way because and I'll explain why it's that way. And then ten years ago by the objective reality is still there and I'll say, you know why I think it's that way, and it will be different, and some people will be like, well, you used to think, and I'm just like yeah, and I came up with a long to ago me like I used to ship my diapers. I used to ship my diapers. You usually say it like this, I used to shoot ship my diapers, but things change. It became when comfortable. No, that's not it. That's not it. The devil's in the details with this. It's yeah, I used to shoot ship my diapers too, but things change, that's how you say. And you may well still again reality. So point being, there's a saying, what's that saying? It's uh, once a man, twice a boy, Yeah, that's good. Or what walks on um for legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs. That's what you had to say. That's what uh was the Oedipus. I think you're right when he like Oedipus, his deal was we talked about the support Oedipus, didn't we up. This deal was he was raised not by his actual parents, but he didn't know that they were in his parents. And he goes to a soothsayer. The soothsayer says the Oedipus, oh, you know what's gonna happen to you. You'll kill your dad and marry your ma. But he doesn't know that. He thinks he lives with his parents, so he splits. He splits to to to to get away from his thing, and then winds up in some crazy town. And to get into the town, you gotta answer a riddle. And he answers that riddle, and the guy that gave him the riddle dies and he kills him, and he goes into town, gets in a fight with the guy, kills him, marries the gal is dad. Ma Um, that's where the riddle came from. Well, but what I was trying to get at was this, that's the riddle that he had to solve, not what I'm trying to get your time stamp and in this movie, moviesn't not in the digital as I'll live forever in some form or another. Um, your time stamp is a guy that's like interested in growing big, huge giant bucks because in your mind, like big huge giant box are emblematic of like a healthy deer population. And then chronic wasting. And then the movie ends and you get really concerned about chronic wasting disease. And it emerges that that like a leading theory on the spread of chronic wasting diseases, the deer most likely to go all over to damn place um and that's young Bocks. And then you start the you kind of have an attitude was trying to lower deer numbers in your area because that's the game agency objective too, is just the drive deer numbers down, down, down to slow the spread of chronic wasting disease. So had we made a movie about you, uh five years two years after we did right completely except the thing so there you are saying stuff that you don't even believe anymore. Not true. He believe those things that the circumstances were still the same. But the what was the no appreciate this now the thing that's consistent throughout it, and you and I've had this conversation before, and we've talked about it on the show, and we're talked about on podcasts we've had you know, is that it's a part it's the conservation of of the area and a part of what we were doing in growing you know, bigger and older buckses that we were not going to population called big huge giant bucks doug. Uh, I really don't like that expression, but um, so, you know, more mature whatever were It was a part of, oh, we've got a population problem, and that was expressing itself in our in our woods. Um and and you know, we're there was overbrows and we're trying to regenerate oaks and so um and we're killing a bunch of deer, but we happen to be targeting Uh does more. And then I'm learning why you can't really stockpile box. It's not like you can just turn the whole farm into a whole bunch of bucks. And because you know, and then it's you know, and then the other thing is interesting about big giant bucks is once there starts to be a lot of them around, it's not that unusual. It's not that special anymore. Deer are special to me, um, and the fascination of seeing them in the woods. But anyway, so it was conservation based and that has been the overriding theme through through my lifetime. That's what I meant by the objective reality. That's what's the phrase that I was looking for, um that I couldn't remember. Um, the objective reality fixed the fixed thing, the fixed things conservation. And so I don't think that I've been accused um. You know, well, I guess in some ways negatively about yeah, well you used to be the guy who's all about right. I didn't think you killed that was I thought you were a big buck hunter. And you know, I've been accute said and of that in in in bars and things like that, and UM my responses, well't no, it's just always been the same ideas that we're trying to do what's best. Um. And one of the by products of that was bigger bucks and older box and U uh. And so that was one of the things that happened of it. And I felt like, not only was the was the standard as we came to we never named you know how white tail Guy's named dear when they see him on the camera and stuff. When you don't name them till they're dead. Well and A and a friend of ours had said when he saw it, he goes, well, that is the standard by which all dear in the future will be judged. And so you know that was how that happened. And UM and and so that that's the part that made sense to me. And and now that UM, the resource because of chronic wasting disease has been uh, it's threatened. I mean, we have high prevalence in our area. UM, I can't I have trouble with the visualization now of seeing a hundred deer in the field and and uh, you know, realizing that up to that hundred deer are carrying a fatal disease that there is are also spreading around. UM, not in our area yet, but south of us. So I'm trying to do what I can for it. So the conservation ethic of it is that overriding theme, or that that continuum of it. And and the fascination of of deer in the woods and the time in the woods is also the the part of it that's been real consistent for me. But UM Jones brought up a lot of the questions that UM and I never was offended by anything that the guys that um or and I thought it was a fascinating guy because he talked about moral responsibility and UH and I and I feel that responsibility. UM. And I think that UM all the folks that I like to hang out with anyway and hunt with and stuff, that they feel that responsibility for it too. UM, just like I feel a responsibility. You know, you're talking about, UM, the livestock that you raise, you know, as you know, I raised cattle, and UM, there's I have a have mixed feelings about that, but at the end of the day, UM, there's a I feel a responsibility. I would never grow cattle in a way that you know that they are done on a large scale. I just it's just not something that I would do. And I'm in a position where I don't have to because you just like large scale because it's large scale. You're just like what you assume comes with large scale or what you know that what you know to come with large scale, what I know to come if you have if you have an experience, if you create an experience, it's that's the right word. You create a reality or an experience for your cows. If you can what's the difference if you're doing it for that experience for twenty year, that experience for a thousand, if it's how they're raised. You know, one of the things that you brought up was that like the desire of people now to know that their meat is humanely raised, that their animals like you see what I'm saying, right, it's not that it's large It's not that the fact that it's large scale. It's like what efficiencies come with large scale that you don't like or or there's I don't want to but there's probably an environmental component exactly. That's exactly right, Like if you have a lot, if you're doing a thousand and then you got a lot of manure you're dealing with and for a finite fine feeding operations or environmentally problematic to say the least. And when I was a kid, when you drive around our area was and you guys have been there a farm here, farm there, farm there, and and and sort of everything that was happening. Yeah, green hills, red barn silos, black and white cows and uh you know, the manure that was being uh produced on that farmer those cattle was pretty much going back in the field, and and there were times that you you know, you kind of wish you had more because it was you know, it was it was it was. It wasn't a byproduct or a waste product that you're getting rid of. Um. So there's that. Uh, there's the living on concrete, you know, a cow, a steer, whatever, living its life out in an environment like that. For me, I mean, I'm not going to judge other people that are doing it, but for me, I don't think that's um morallily responsible. I raised grass fed beef. I'm able to do it in a way that uh um. I think about all the time, like, am I doing this right? Am I treating them? Well? Is it? Uh? Um? Uh, it's just you know, environmentally sense at um. And then Robert Jones would say, you know that's all great, but in the end, you kill it. Yeah, he'd say it, let's take it one step further and now do it at all. Let's finish let's finish it up. Well. Um, but you're sort of saying like no, you're sort of saying, I have to do it. This is the best I can do. He would challenge the idea that you have to do it um, yes, yes, he sure would. Um, but I think that that idea when he talked about instinct for instance, well, you know, we don't act on all of our instincts, but we can act on our instincts and a morally morally responsive. Interesting point, he said, when I smell bacon, I think, man, that bacon. It was really interesting to hear him say that. Yeah. Yeah, Um, I mean I don't take any of it lately. You know, you were asking me about this last night or the day before or something, and um, it gets harder for me. Uh. You know, I loaded up a bunch of six months old calves, uh six months old steers and heifers last year and sent them down the road and listen to their mother's beller and they you know. I mean it was a it was a decision that I had to make because of the cattle and all of that. Um, and it was I'm literally changing how I'm raising cattle because I don't want to do that again. I mean, I'm just going to raise them differently, um, and not have big groups of cattle like that. I'm gonna take them through their lives so that in when they do um, go to slaughter and I really want to move towards um being able to be a USD. And they have a U s D inspected mobile, butcher come to back into the barn, walk them on there there and and they do all the work right there. Um because the inspection is important to me because I sell the beef. But rather than even putting them on that truck to go to the locker where they then settled down, spend the night, and the next morning they die. That's how we do it now, um. But I can tell you this, they have a great life up to that point, just like the deerer on our farm do. UM. And I and I and I try to balance that with you know, with that that's that responsibility that I feel. And I think that um that as you said, I think that's the best I can do. Quick story for you, little digression. I was at my friend on his house one time. Her dad was a vet but also a rancher, and she had a bunch of friends over, including some vegetarians are over. And they get there and they got this little they got this little crawl right off their house and it's all the lambs are in the craw And I said, what's going on with the lambs, you know, and she makes like a throat cutting gesture to me, like this is a sensitive subject considering the people she has over And while we're there hanging out and living him, a truck backs in and the guy's custom plate is one shot j J. She looks out the wind and she's like, oh, and JJ got out of his Tony two and set to work. What did they think of that? No one really liked it, but they he set to work right then and there. Well, I no one went out to view, but it was just like, you know, yeah, I was like, the guy one shot JJ's here. Yeah, and he had the whole he had his truck, but then he also had his whole mobile. Anyhow. Yeah, I've been real matter of fact about it in the past because I grew up with it, you know, with the slaughtering of animals and and and hunting and all of that. I think that's key, and I think that that that's like what makes you realize that it's just it's kind of like there's a lot of things, a lot of sense, a lot of a lot of tough issues that if you were raising a range of environments, you'd come out thinking the same thing, like, we'd all agree that no matter what kind of householder were raised in, that violent crime is bad. That you know, beating somebody up as bad. There are people who question, well, yeah, but I mean depending on how they are raised often or their level of sociopath but people would agree that perpetrating violence against somebody's wrong. But with hunting um or killing animals, whether you were great raised in like a vegetarian household or hunting how farming household has a huge bearing. Yeah, what you end up thinking as an adult. Yeah, I know that because I've had, I continue to have so much exposure to people who had such a very different upbringing in the things that I think of as just a very matter of fact or sometimes shock to people. M Yeah, like look at uh, look at even people that have been exposed a lot to hunting and fishing, like my my wife. You know, she's been exposed to hunting and fishing on an offer whole life, and ranching and ranching. She doesn't hunting fish, but she's been exposed to it. She thinks it's deplorable that we don't kill pan fish. I've talked about this on this here programming a lot. Yeah, and Uh, to me, that is just I was told when I was a little kid that they don't feel stuff. Hold on expand on that, because not just that we don't kill pans. Okay, so we catch the fish and we don't dispose. You got a catfish and throwing the bottom of the boat. She acts like you're driving around with a deer flopping around in the back of your truck, or you'd have a rabbit in your game pouch kicking around back there. And and when that's exactly how and when I try to counter her, my arguments are extremely thin, like I don't know what that thing is feeling. You know that narrative which I love, it's like this sort of thing and I'm not for Pat Durkins explored that narrative of of your family farm and this like and b n y that we get into in the movie Not Nice Buck Next Year. This sort of ethos or this conservation ethic that perhaps is the elastic in some way. Uh that it's like a really um it's it's really like compelling, beautiful and very tidy story. It's like this nice tidy package when you want to pluck it out and so and to have it be in a movie that you like, pluck this little package out and book ended with other people's sentiments, it has it wants up feeling like conclusive, you know, but then it ends and ship goes on and let the story continues, just like the story has continue to that farm for a hundred and fifteen years. And one of the interesting things to me is how in the ark of my lifetime we went from a few deer too more dear too now to too many deer and disease. And at the same time, that's how if you're just isolating the deer and at the same time we have these other conservation issues on our on our property, in in our in the whole driftless area, um, that are all sort of interwined together. And so I see them as as a group of of issues that are interwined together as opposed to you know, people who are most interested in or in some cases solely interested in deer and dear only. UM. And I don't I don't know exactly how to um wrap that all up real tidy, but uh, I think that with the kinds of themes that we're talking about, the bigger ball of all of these things together is is you know where I rest, my rest, my case and all of this that I'm not just caring for one thing or trying to do one thing. I'm trying to do and a lot of folks that I know um doing it. And really the people that I personally respect the most are trying to do a u something that's much more a wider conservation based idea. Yeah, that's that's Leopold, the whole community. Yeah. Yeah, well he's from the soil all the way up to this guy. What was his Uh he didn't coin biome what did he coin? He he would have known him for. Yeah, but the but the land ethic and that that I mean. And Leopold is my he's my hero. Um. He used to take out his recurve and take seventy yard shots a deer. Just see if you get hit him. Yeah, there's a book I can't there's a later book of his words, just see if you hit him. Yeah, there's a later book of his where he's hunting in New Mexico with some friend of his and there's a lot of questionable shots. If now, if you just hunting now, you think he was a perfect perfect segue. If we wouldn't want to jump into the ethics thing. Oh I thought we were talking about ethics. Oh well, we talked about this idea of one of the things we talked about one of the themes. Rattle off a handful of themes and I'll touch on this quick, but I want to get I want to get to Randall too. Um, the patrilineal passage of hunting. So we had, Yeah, Yanni had this idea and we just, you know, conversations like movies going their own direction. Um untied that of bringing up a bunch of the themes that we explore in the movie, and we're just you's gonna throw them out and I'm gonna give a handful of snap shots and then we're gonna move into talking to talking to Randall. But yeah, so we explore like patrilinnial descent being that's how most like just I'm not talking about I'm not talking about the way things should be. I'm just something about the way they are. The people to buy a hunting license in this country are men, and most of those pick it up from their dad. We talked about that, and then we talk about cases that aren't that, and and and and it's sort of this chorus of characters talking about what it like, what it was that pushed him in this direction. And I oftentimes find that the ones that are most interesting are the ones that aren't just the same old, same old, which is like, un is your dad hunted, you hung as your dad hunted, young as your dad hunted, You hung as your dad hunted Randall, No, my dad didn't hunt. There you go. We're um, we're still justically skewed right now. There should be nine of us in one of you. No, No, that's not true. That's not no, that's not that. I'm mixing that up with the I'm mixing that up with the with the with the gender thing, red alof not one real quick Johnny H Hunters pr problem. Yeah. The way in the movie we get into try to explore this idea of the way a hunter experiences their actions and activities and the way those actions and activities look to people who are not that they are seeing. There's a there's a really good book if you guys, let read Milan Kundera. Kundera's book, The Unbearable Likeness of Being. It's a good book. There's a guy and his girlfriend and his novel and and she was from the Soviet block and he's not. And they talk about when they see a parade, when they watch a parade, what she thinks when she sees a parade and what he thinks when he sees a parade, same thing. Well, they conjures very different, very different emotions in them. Um. So we get into that a little bit. Um the question like why have ethics become so intertwined with today's hunting? Yeah, meaning, um, you know, if you go back to the first people, the first Siberians that came into the New World, the western hemisphere what's now the US, Um, what was there? More? Did they feel? Uh? Was there an ethical conundrum? Was the sadness there? Or other animals that are alive now on our planet? Is there sadness when the wolf when that elk finally bleeds out and dies? Is the wolf? Like, dude, I'm always kind of balmed. I imagine the fact that like ancient man didn't have it choice, some major mitigating factor. And if you look at you know, we don't explore this fully at all, but if you look at there was also like kind of a hallmark of indigenous hunter gatherer cultures. And this is something Robert Jones brings up and he winds up contradicting himself. It's not in the movie, but some dad like to release the whole interview. He winds up contradicting himself because he's okay with indigenous hunting. Yet his point is, then animal doesn't care about your things that he kept telling me, Like you talk about ethics, but animals don't care about your ethics. They're getting killed, they feel pain, and they die. They don't care what kind of trip you're on. Yet he expresses to me being okay with indigenous hunters because it has religious connotations for them, and I'm like, the animal doesn't know it has religious connotations. You're contradicting what you just told me. And maybe I feel something that's borders on the religious. But it's a thing where like people that are anti hunters oftentimes had to find these ways to make other things that they feel should be okay okay. And the thing that's hard for them to explain is it's harder than to be like, well, why can indigenous people hunt? Because they don't want to say they can't. It's like colonialism, But you wonder why then, like how like this brings it all the way back around to what we're just talking about with Leopold and like Pope and Young. Right, there's plenty of stories those boys going out on hunting trips with hundreds of arrows because they were known to fling it a distances now even the best archers think are long and far with today's equipment, right, And so even in that short period of time, what is that? When when did Pope and Young come around? Like, I think what was it? Was it? That it could have been like really weirdly early too, but I want to either way within the last within the last hundred years, right, So look where the hunting ethics is coming that short period of time. Yeah, or just some of the classic gun writers are lobbing bullets out there taking shots with That's why we call Yanni, not because I love shots. We call me Anie Van's Wall too, but um yeah, Yanni O'Connor, Jack O'Connor. He they'd like roll up on a group with big horns and just everyone and start shooting and they're going they're like, oh my gosh, we want to before Well there's also I mean this is going that late no really, yeah, but that's that's the that's when it became an official club, Pope and Young themselves. I think we're doing things prior to that. But the Pope and Young Club and art right, I think so. Yeah, because Boone and Crockett Club was early eighties all right, Randall? Yes, so that might do any justice Yanni on on the themes you're in the point. I want to move on to Randall though, since we got him here. Yeah, those boys are hunting together, just to wrap it all up, nineteen eleven twelve. In those years, I hope they like each other. They liked each other because they're like nuts on a dog now. Yeah, yeah, they're just together. You know. Um, Randall, if you had like a one to ten, if you had a sliding scale of one to ten and you had to rate our job of capturing what you had to say on a one to ten, where are we four or five? Where are we? Like when you watched it, Like, what was your level of disappointment? Oh? I was thrilled? You were thrilled? Yeah you were disappointed? No, I mean we had we talked to you a lot. Yeah, we did one interview. There's probably like three and a half hours and one that was probably to something and uh, somedoy who release all these as just a giant transcription? Oh god? You know, like I I walked away from each one of those interviews feeling kind of punch drunk, like did I really say that that way? Or did I get it backwards or did I flip that? You know, did I actually get across what I was trying to say? And and when I pressed play on the documentary for the first time, my hope was that I would just make sense and then I wouldn't say something that was categorically false or outrageous. Um. And I thought, I I thought I came out pretty good. Can you tell people what it is you did that first put you on our radar? Yeah? So I did, uhum a PhD in history at the University of Montana, and my dissertation was a study of hunting in American politics and culture in basically the second half of the twentie century, called Green Voters, Gun Voters, um, Hunting in American Politics and Culture in the twentieth Century. I think, did we know that that was the title? Back in the day? You do that? I knew that, Um, Yeah, it's not published. He was ahead of his time it's not published. I started working as an editor after that, and at the end of the day I just wanted to put away the computer and not look at another word document, so I never kind of picked it back up. Um, did you uh? Did? Did you get your a little piece of paper that says PhD? I did? I did, And I just realized the other day I have no idea where that is. No one's I was looking at my wife's degree on the wall and I was like, man, I don't don't really know where that that went. No one said, no one said to you prove it and you had to go, and you've had to go get it. No, I have a PhD. How would I have this? I have two PhDs and I don't know where one is. This is a joke. Don't tell this joke, pretty huge, don't tell this joke. Go on, Randall, Um, is that gonna get cut because you didn't You didn't all the joke. I was actually gonna alert Randall to check in with you about your joke. Later used that you used that line on me in the first podcast. I think that's I learned that from a girl I was dating, and she learned on the TV show Friends. Is that right? Wow? Yeah, I don't know that that Friends was like risk a man, I had a girlfriend love that show? Go on? Um yeah, So basically, I, um, it's part of my research. I had just looked at hunting and fishing magazines over the course of like sixty some odd years, and looked at other public representations of hunting and hunting where it popped up in the news or another, um, you know, forms of popular culture, like when Sesame Street in the seventies or eighties does something on hunting, what does that look like? Or how our hunters represented in Looney Tunes things like that. So just basically tried to um digest this huge volume of material and think about, um, how hunters have represented themselves over time, and what others have thought of hunters and they um the dialectic between those two things, and how that's evolved in this period in which hunting's place in popular culture has really changed a lot. Have you ever seen that cartoon where it's like it's not part of Looney Tunes or anything, but used to be on like Saturday Morning once in a a while, where it's like deer hunting and it's just like people shooting each other and stuff. It was all from the fifties, from the fifties, and like one of those in the embedded in his like an ad for the mother in law deer hunting suit, and it's like she puts it on, it's a deer suit, so she gets it's so she gets shot. And then a guy in that same cartoon, a guy shoot the buck and then says to his body, I got one that's got antlers like this, and he gets his head, holds his hands up to show the antlers and his friend shoots him. Yeah, and there's one Joe. I don't know the lead. I remember the lead up, but it ends up with like the deer's driving the car and he strapped to the bumpers. I haven't seen that, no, And I said before Sesame Street. What I'm thinking about, think is the Muppets, And there's like a scene in the Muppets um that I came across where that Buffalo Springfield song, like you know, that's one of vivid memories of these animals are walking through the forest and their hunters there and whenever it stopped, they start shooting. I don't remember that. Yeah, and they're they're like these these hunters are creeping through the woods looking for the animals. And yeah, and it's like a protest anthem. So it has by a band that's named after a rifle. Yeah. Yeah. I talked about that in my buffal little book Buffalo Springfield and what that name? What that name is all about? Um. I teach my kids to recognize anti hunting bias and the things that they look at. And they're good, my boys. My boy is good at picking it up. And we talked about in children's literature. It is almost I don't want to say daily, but weekly. I bet you I got I got to just like stop and be like, okay, girls, let's just think about what this book just said and like really go through it and and dissect it. Because no, wild animals don't need our help. And when you don't have to put food on the window sill so that the birds will continue to live, like what in the world. That's why you gotta read your kids. Light in the Forest, Hatchet my side of the mountain. There's plenty of books out there. Man. The worst anti hunting show is um. One of the worst anti hunting shows is Wildcrats. I haven't seen it. That show so what's this on this on the sliding scale, all of your complex ideas, we kind of mostly just had you be like a little bit of a demographics guy and a little bit of a Roosevelt guy. Yeah. I was fine with that. Yeah. Um, I felt there's so many people. It's it's funny because there's so many people that I feel, UM like getting into. I didn't know what I was getting into, you know, I didn't know how hard it was gonna like. I didn't. I just knew I wanted to capture, like we're gonna go capture tons of stuff. And then I knew that. You know, I've watched hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of movies. I know how long they are. Um, And I didn't put those two things together like I didn't. I didn't think about I wasn't thinking about um. I was thinking about it. I wasn't thinking it was gonna be like Ken Burns a civil war or something. But never I wasn't think I knew what was gonna wind up being. It was gonna be like a ninety minute whatever. And I wasn't picturing that's what I want to do another one someday. I wasn't imagining what would happen to all of these ideas. Not only that, like that you need to like simplify things and pare it down for a couple of reasons so that the viewer could understand, and you also have the sense of allegiance to the subject. And you're like, I can't have the subjects say ten things incompletely. Yeah, I'm gonna have to find they're just gonna have to say two things in a way that makes sense, yea, rather than letting them right there giving them sound bites about tons of stuff. It's like, I gotta this is gonna be like like if you're gonna boil it down, what are some things? And then the problem with like with friends, and there's so many friends of mine in it, you know, Rogan's in it, Robert Abernathew's in it. I don't want to point like, I don't want to posset these problems their problems only in my head, because they're not problems for someone to watch the film. I really want people to watch films I do. I like, I like, I want people to see an experience it. So there's the thing we keep talking about, like these things and it's like way as you perceive them, there's the thing, and the thing as a freestanding entity is something I want people to see, but I can't watch it without all of the the noise in my head. And part of the noise in my head is like I had these friends who have really interesting experiences, like like Matt, who's sitting here, has this very refreshing like everything out of MAT's mouth is delights me, Like everything he says delights me. So um, Doug, you know, like dogs, like this generous, beautiful person with kind of this like a way to express, to explain his life in the way that's very moving and instructive. Right, And you have this like really cohesive view of something that's really complicated and like a real knack for sort of blaming this activity that is so influenced by history and influenced by demographics and sort of like making it seem like a picture, you know, like like presenting it and and I'm friends with you guys, and so then to put you there, I'm also like what I want them to look like? What I see when I see them, It's just it's just complicated. Man. Oh yeah, I'm kind of haunted by the I'm haunted by the process. Well, I think that's I'm good. I'm I'm so. I'm glad as to be sitting here talking because I want to make sure we're cool. Yeah, we're all good. And this also goes out as an apology to all those other people that the interview that didn't make the cut. Well, I know, I mean, I a lot of what you're saying resonates with me because when I, UM worked on my dissertation, you're telling a story and you're trying to explain something through the storytelling process, and you have to choose a beginning and an end and an arc to it, and you can't compress everything in there. And UM. So that's like, when I go back and look at my dissertation, I remember all the things that started to become threads that I wanted to weave into this and I had to I had to cut them. UM. And I have, you know, boxes and boxes of photo copies and notes and things like that that have been traveling around with me for a couple of years and UM, and they're all little things that I wanted to cram into that. UM because when I read what I wrote, I think, like man, it's it's more complex than that. There are several other layers that I need to to weave into this thing. Um and and so yeah, I mean I think especially with you know, I'm lucky because I I didn't have a page limit. Um. But when you're making a documentary film, obviously there's that window of time that you have to fit it into. It doesn't matter how good the stuff you get is. Um, you have to make those really really tough choices. You ought to cred sism we got early on about the movie, which I would have thought would have been a compliment, but it was always issued as a criticism is it doesn't come down hard enough on anything. It feels too open ended. And I always want to be like, that's great, yeah, you know, I mean if people wanted to be like a like a like a Michael Moore kind of thing. I try not to surround myself with people who come down hard on stuff like there's what's the point, you know? And to the point earlier about having this animal ethicist as a leading figure in the documentary, like having an open exchange of ideas and questioning your own ideas and reflecting on what you really think or what you really believe or what values you have. Like if you just are in an echo chamber and you're you know, talking about the people on the outside, or you're talking about how great the people in this room are, what are you really doing? You know, it's not it's not a real serious intellectual exercise. And so yeah, I'm you could have made a movie of people saying, dude, if we don't kill all the deer, we'll get overrun. Yeah. Yeah, And I think, like, you know, one other thing too, is like it's really easy to like write a book review or a movie review and and slam it. Like and this is something that at least in graduate school you could recognize people are starting to write book reviews. They just trash everything or it's the greatest thing they've ever read. But it takes, you know, it takes it takes a lot more effort to to you know, pick something apart and ask questions of it and go back and revisit and chew on it, and and that ultimately generates, you know, more questions. Like a film reviewed on NPR, You're like, I can't tell that dude really like, yeah, you know, I think that's so he might not want to bore his listeners with whether he liked it or not. Yeah, right, Yeah, I always want to know because I'm like, well, I mean, this is his job. He liked it, I'll I might be more inclined to see it. Yeah, if you're always to be thought provoking, I think he succeeded there. I think everybody can't agree on that, right, Yeah, it's I don't know. It's it's nice to see something that, like hunting, as you're saying, is often portrayed as this cartoonish activity and you're either the hero or you're the villain, and that's not the reality of it. And so to see this like nuanced, um exploration of what we're all doing and why we do it, and why we think we do it, why we may actually do it. Um. I don't know. I found that refreshing. It would be interesting to like hear what I don't ten people from various uh walks of life that don't hunt. What did what did anything change in their perception upon it? If you could make them, If you could take people who were ambivalent or hostile to hunting and somehow forced them to watch and then do a post interview, Yeah, I could set that up. I just haven't done it yet, but it'll be interesting to it. Definitely do it. And you know, well, I don't know if I need to hear it now. Maybe when the making of it I would have been interested here, but now it's like something that would be the reason that I would do it. Uh. You know remember how I began. You want to you want to see some full circle? Right? You want to see it like Uh, as long as you're gonna allow me to to do a concluding question, you can including questions you want to see me bring something full circle. Remember how earlier I mentioned uh Ian Frasier, what did I say about the in Fraser earlier? He starts his books with he likes to tell people right away in his books about there about he thinks to will start reading the book. They want to know what. They don't want to wait to find out what it's about. He also told me this when he's right. He's a nonfiction writer. When he's writing and he's profiling people, he'll get this feeling that they're not gonna like what he's writing, and he always um mitigates that by getting a very flattering physical description of them. Where she says usually can undoes any harm. They're like, you know, I really like that. You know, I likes what you had to say about our conversation. Uh, I didn't need to do that with you guys, because it's a movie, and so people can see just how wonderful you all are by going to Vimeo and watching Stars in the Sky. That was that is, that's from years of That's why you do it. And just picture him with a little more grain and Doug just imagine you see Doug now, just imagined him when he looked younger. It'd be it would be even better if you just went to Stars in the Sky film dot com and bought it there, wash it there. That was a little more blunt. We could, but then we can we could track here, We could track your watching better, and we could report numbers to people that give a ship and it would help us out. So Stars in the Sky film dot Com you told me when you first started doing this that, like, really the end goal was to do it well enough so that you would be allowed to make another one. That's the wardy Allen Maxim. Yes, but you have his movies were good enough that they let him make another one. But you thought that that would be like a measure of success. Yeah, so do we know that now or if not, how long will it be until we know? I'll make another movie. I'll make another movie. Um, but just my circumstances are such that, like it doesn't matter. I'll just find a way I would like to make it on a movie. And uh, yeah, all right, I'll write more books and I'm gonna make another movie. I don't know if it's gonna because someone let me, or if it's gonna want someone let me. What's gonna want to be because I went and did it? But yeah, I love it. That's my favorite. Um. If I if I had to be honest with you, if I had to pick up medium a medium, if God came down and put a gun to my head and made me pick a one medium, one thing that I could take in for the rest of my life, it would be films. And if he really subdivided it out, I would say documentaries. H yeah, because even if I went blind, I could still listen to him, and if I went deaf, I could watch him. Good point. Tell him that website again, Yanni Stars Film dot Com. Al Right, everyone, thank you so much guys for coming down I really do love you guys, and you people listening. I meant I was talking about these guys, but you guys do not don't know them, But you'd love him if you got to know him.