00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming in you shirtless, severely bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. How's it going, guys? Yo? When we got up here, we're doing a thing called sound check, and we found out that well, Jimmy Dorn was all excited about Eddie Vetter and him jumping around up here right there. But more important than that is who Denie. Who Deny was on this stage was right about here two times. My brother always likes to talk about how who Deny died? Where? Who Denie fell? That? Do you guys know this? He felt that he could like clench his stomach and withstand any blow, and some kid was like, well, I'll try it and killed him man like hit him. He did. Well, we got what we were discussing that. We thought you were part of the conversation, but you obviously weren't listening to us. The stage manager told us that, yes, that happened, but that's not what killed him. Yeah, it did. It rupture his appendence. He tried to do a trick after that in a water tank right to get through his act. He couldn't get through his act, went back, wouldn't go to the hospital or something like that, and died. Wasn't this stage we should exactly he died and they said they cut out they cut out a beam under the stage that's still cut from his act in like nive or more theater. Oh my introductions, um the Lavin Eagle, thank you, and uh Jimmy Dorn from Belltown Pizza, he's been on the show. If if you wanna, if you want to patronize Belltown Pizza under Jimmy Dorn's command your time, No, then you have a lot a long time to patronize Jimmy Doran's pizza restaurant. Hopefully not that much longer. How many years you've been at Belltown sixteen and then there's seventeen. But yeah, I've been running it for owning it for fifteen and then uh yeah, hopefully winding down. So he I told him he doesn't even if he doesn't say anything tonight, that's all that I told him. He doesn't ever say anything. We just wanted to be represented by a generalist, seattleite outdoorsman. This guy he likes he likes to catch salmon, he likes to shoot at deer, he likes to root and like like every dude I know in Seattle, like every guy in Seattle. He's like, well, yeah, but I like the Seahawks a long time ago. Oh I did. I like the Seahawks when they sucked, but we've been very fortunate they don't suck anymore. My favorite story, I think is when you tell him about Jimmy's turkey hunt. How like overnight he became an expert turkey hunter because you guys walked up on some turkeys one time. That's a good story. We were actually driving back from a set in the morning where we had sat out and froze our asses off and didn't see a thing. And we were two weeks into the turkey season, and I believe the guide took us to a place where everything had been shot and our guide, uh was We were just literally driving back and he's like, hey, I just want to check this little sliver Republic. And we were just taking a meandering route through this one little sliver around the Colville area, and we came around a corner and there was literally eight tom's in the road and we basically jumped out of the truck and shot him and we got a tax. He's like, what's the heart about this. Yeah, it always happens that way. I didn't really call it a hunt. I called it more of a shoeing. Get it gets a good way. And then uh are very on Sam London? If you Sam? Sam writes about all Sam writes about all kinds of stuff for us? What's that your people are up top? I don't know. The guys don't matter. Oh yeah, tell where you're from. Yeah, I'd like to consider myself a generalist, yadelite hunter all day carrying Montana. You quit moved? Yeah, I quitnt moved, but I did grow up on Wipy Island, live in Washington until I was twenty two. And then uh, April Bokey, who's not only not she's not even in the damn country? What what's the town? You know? You like? Tell where you're from? And then how you always apologize about it? Yeah, but I always say, don't tell anybodybody? Sorry, what don't tell anybody? Yeah? Nothing yet it's surrean, don't tell anyone. So now you even told everyone and everyone knows to. People want to say hi to So happy anniversary. We have Ross and Megan Sharp. You guys here, all right, there's a bunch of like there's a bunch of gas. There's a bunch of people you would know from the show. Tommy Edson's here, he's been on that show. Tony Cola Ross, he's been on the show. Greg Blaskovich has been on the show. I think my friend Bowman's here. I never let him come on. Um and then down from joint bass Lewis McCord, we have Seth Wheeler, who I met earlier, So him and his teammate are here. Good dudes been in and out of war zones for a long time now. As we were just discussing and um and then I used to kind of be I was like a temporary seatlite uh And I got all nostalgic here because we rented a how's it air It's like a it's an Airbnb, but it's more like a hotel. I feel like it's uh like an apartment building department which looks down on my main most important squid jigging spot. And it got super nostalgic about that. Um Man, I didn't realize how much I was gonna miss it. I moved in August, and I got to thinking about razor clams, jigging squid and the thing I like most. And this is why I don't trust anyone in this audience. It's because when I lived here, I discovered that you guys are sitting on the continents greatest yellow perch fishery. Now, don't do that. Don't do that, because I'm telling you, me and my little boy hit it hard and we never once saw a serious perch fisherman on that lake. And you know the lake I'm talking about, it's a big gass lake. And and as you catch fish, cyclones of perch come up with the one you're reeling in. It's unbelievable. And people, because you guys are steelhead and salmon snobs, I had to I had like defend myself constantly as a perch fisherman from Michigan, but a guy from Oregon with a boat so that we could get out there and fish together. Yeah, our body had to drive up with a boat from Portland to take us perch fish in the time. That guy that he ate his first ever small mouth bass on Lake Washington in that bass boat, remember the spark bash We fished perch out of that um that that was Matt Elliott's Matt Elliott Special basketball. He came up to fish bass, but I've filled his little live all up the perch. Well, they haven't opened the socky season for such a damn long time that maybe people should just get into perch instead. Yeah, what is what is? Uh? When was the last time that that wasn't six? I believe, So there's no sock fishery. No, they haven't come back in the number of seas the last time. The last time it was open, my dad and I ran our boat down from Whidby through the locks through Lake Union into Lake Washington fish stock for a couple of days and then went all the way back. It's crazy when that when that, I hope it happens again someday because it's such a ship show. It's it's amazing to watch. It looks like you'd walk all the way across the lake from boat to boat, like canoes next to yachts, next to like drift boats to people are mostly trolling, okay, um, but I don't know. I imagine you could jig them too, because in the Fraser we used to line up with like bouncing betties and then twenty ft leaders and then go through In philosophy right right Washington You know, people always talk about how soccer I don't don't eat, don't grab stuff that people always phlosoph the But but we troll uh a big flasher with a bare red hook behind it. Yeah, no, they'll bite the hammer that bare red octopus hook like size too. That's legal in the snow. You can do that here. Yeah, you're not snagging. They eat it. Yeah, we we weren't allowed because they would eat a bear hook, but it was illegal in BC. So we had to put like a little tuft of green. Lot of dumb laws in b C. Did you have to pinch your bar? There's a lot of dumb wall laws in Washington two to play fair, yeah, but this they got some wicked laws that she was just telling us about it. Explain about if you're if you're not a resident, you can't Yeah this is recent, but if you're a non resident of British Columbia you can't fish on weekends in the Skina system. Were on several classified rivers. Yeah, when I fished the Bulkley, I had to pay forty bucks a day for Thursday and Friday, and then they kicked me off and we had to keep on driving. Yeah, the majority of the residents actually don't support it. It's a long story and it's very political, but it was the Guide movement that pushed that, not us the guy, because if you're fishing with the guide, you can fish weekends. Yeah, and I don't guide anymore, so don't don't point at me. But it isn't there aren't there some streams that are completely closed to like yeah, actually, there there are rivers that are BC resident only. So it's not it's not just Canade. There are yeah, like the Talkla. Yeah, um, but even someone from Alberta can't fish the Talkla. No, you've got to be a BC resident. Can you imagine trying to pass a lot like that in the United States? No, Max, we believe in American rights. Yeah, yeah, told all these people they can't come fish the Madison. Uh, Sam, while you can you break down the thing I told you to break down that that's happening here in Washington. Which thing was that? You've got three things you gotta break down. This is the first one about how the bill that will never pass, but Washington's backpack in the example in the proposed Yeah, this is something I just read about this week that there's legislation in the Washington State legislature. Uh, that they're proposing to have what's broadly been taught about is the backpack tax and hunting fishing world, which was basically, have people who enjoy the benefits of what we as hunters and anglers pay for with our excise taxes through the Pittman Robertson Act and the Dinghill Johnson Act. Um. So what they're proposing is to have a tax on outdoor equipment over two hundred dollars, you know in in Washington state. No, no, no, no, two tents of one, but you would be exempted from said tax if you show, if you could display a hunting or fishing license. Because there I think it's a damn good idea. Yeah, I am completely supportive of because you've already paid ten tax on a bunch of your equipment and so now other people are gonna pony up and it goes into the wildlife fund. Yeah, it's great. It's great. And in Washington, there's a hell of a lot more people who are enjoying looking at wildlife and just that we're just enjoying the idea of wildlife. There's a hell of lot more than them than there are of us. Now, I haven't seen any polling data, but I'm gonna venture to guess that this will not be dead on arrival. That's a good idea. You know a thing I want to mention. I should have mentioned it. I should have pivoted when you guys were talking about uh, bear hooks. I just want to throw this out because I was just we just spent the weekend in Saint Martin, down in the St Martin in the um, creeping for for a birthday party. And I flew down with like hooks in a carry on bag. But down there you cannot carry on to a plane a fish hook, and up until very recently in Canada you couldn't carry on your fishing, like your line, and in Australia still you cannot carry line on because you're gonna gear itt someone. I've had to gut reels in airplanes. But but shoes, strings, neckties are fun. That's like with the hook, because either are like small hooks. I was like, the worst you could do is you could get it in someone's clothes and then they would be like agitated trying to get it out until yeah, they'd find a way to crimp the bar, and then but every already lost their leather man at t s a check and so they wouldn't be able to crimp the bar. And then you'd like take advantage of the confusion and fly the plane somewhere. But I'm like, that's the case. You shouldn't be able to bring gum on because that ship is annoying when it gets in your clothes too. So it's like I could forgot. They want to know, they want to touch on is you know how everybody knows, Like like I'm sure everyone knows the story of the guy in Colorado not too long ago that's strangled the mountain lion like that that that story and no fault of the guy that did it, like he he didn't brag it up. But that story has gotten less and less interesting. It's now it's now that it was a three month old, emaciated, twenty four pound orphan mountain lion kitten. That's like the media loved that story. If you think the lion attacked the jogger, the jogger attacked the lion instead of the other way around, like it's been reported. It was a kid. And again, the dude didn't brag it up. I'm not saying he like sold it to something that wasn't. But the story has just and has just gotten less interesting. There's less reporting on it. I haven't heard a word about it. Pretty soon it's going to be that he strangled a therapy dog rescue puppy. That's the only that's the only thing left. Uh, you know, Uh, there's a guy and I had to coax this out of it. At first, this guy didn't want me to even say what stated happened in but then then he came. He warmed up to me saying what stated happening. But as you know, Washington um did a very naughty thing years ago and made it that you're you're not allowed to use hounds to pursue mountain lions, but you still held outlines. Let's check this out. Though. There's a dude in this state. I don't want to say where he is, but he he's careful to say that he did not pioneer this technique where he's been going out here. We we exchanged some emails. He's been going out and cutting mountain lion tracks in the snow. So he does the same way like a houndsman does. Wait, so the right amount of snow covers on the ground, and he goes out and cuts a track, and he just follows that track and wait till things look right, and he sits down and uses a predator call, and then he follows the track and uses the predator call. And he just got a nice big time doing that. Hundred sixty pounds. That's awesome, dude, that's awesome. That's a tricky hunting man. Yeah, man, I like that guy. Yeah, we're also working in the difficult system that you get placed in. I remember that happening when they banned hunting with hunt lions with hounds. So he, uh, life gave him lemons and he made a lemonade. Lemonade out of it. A hot tip guy roared in about this. I might be the only guy that's gonna appreciate this. I previewed it with you guys. Maybe you know what, how many people in here run a stand up freezer instead of a chest because it's a smart audience. This guy, this guy you was writing in that you know how you get all your stuff in there and then it all falls out when you open the door. He buys those spring loaded um curtain rods and crams everything in there, and it puts a springloaded curtain rod in there to hold his to hold the ship in there so don't come out prevent the meat. How does he do it? Does he hold the one arm in and then try to adjust him. Maybe he has his wife ELTI out. I don't know what he does. But like some people get all excited about, like you know, the iPhone ten, I hear ship like that, and I'm like, man, that's solid, that's a thing. That's the real new tech. Quickly, I want to touch on too. A guy I was chatting with recently was talking about ice fishing, and he had the observation that ice fishing it's just a place where people go to do whatever they already normally do well even better. Whereas like guys that like to talk, they just talk better, and more guys that like to drink, they just drink more. People like to fish fish more. And that concerns me because that means that my kids are only good at getting wet and cold because they do that even more. Out there, Um northing to touch on. Honest, we've talked about this. I'm gonna I'm gonna put it to bed. After this, But if you don't mind, for like the nineteenth time breaking down your advice your marriage advice thing, because there's two final thoughts I have about it. But but I want you to tell everybody to get everybody up to speed. I just wish I remember to use it as often as you asked me to tell everybody about the advice because now, and like you, I'm like man last week, that would have been really good to bring up the one to ten uh scale game. Um so I actually stole it from Wayne Dyer, who my dad used to not really force his vast to make us listen to Wayne Dyre tapes. Mostly I would just fall asleep, but every now and then you pick up something. But he's got a thing where if you're in an argument, most arguments with spouses, um really aren't that all that important about like like who's gonna win it or who's gonna be right. It's just you really just want to get through it. So his his way to do that is to stop. And everybody assigns of value to how important they think the argument is and how important like having it go their way is on a scale one to ten, and so you just stop the argument and everybody just throws a number out there, and so if it's a really not that important, it's a two, you throw your two, and for the other person they might throw it eight or nine, and you just stop and they get to go on and and you go of their direction, right, and it's just an easy way to quit arguing and move on. And you said a lot of times it's worked for you because we've been it's been improving our marriage. Man um, I may be honest, I make you explain this every week. This is the last time you're gonna explain it. But there's two thoughts that came in because people have been writing a lot about marriage. Honest is, I don't know what you stole from someone, but it's gonna call your thing, your marriage savor thing. And one guy is in a he writes him where he's in a fight with his wife because she likes to put vinegar in the soap in the dishwasher, and he's arguing that if if dish soap needed vinegar, they would just put it in there in the factory. So what's weird about it is he's like, but the trick worked because like, I actually didn't really care once I thought about it, and I threw a three and she threw like a nine, so she wins. But then he sits down and writes me a diet tribe like this, it's blaming how stupid it is to put vinegar and soap. Another guy rolled in about he he didn't even get into what his fight was, but he gets in a big fight and he's like he wants to do Nice's trick to get out of the fight, and he throws a two and then gets in trouble for how little he cares. So it's like, yes, that would absolutely be The biggest concern is underestimating somebody else's anger. So if I think if it's a two and you think it's a nine, I might just be digging my hole even deeper. Were fighting about it at that point, So you don't care ashes, Um, what else you wanna talk about? Oh, irrational behaviors? Where this vinegar in the dishwasher? Account? Is that? No? Because I don't really know about that. That might be like a great idea. I don't know. Here's a hot tip vinegar is um. I've been frying a lot in the house lately because I got my bitch in New hood over my stove, you know, and I'm always blasting, I'm frying, and it's it's working, but it's still not like completely diffusing all you know, grease, and I think it's it is. But what we do afterwards, or I should say, my wife Jennifer does, is um, I don't know, maybe a cup or two of some vinegar with a splash of lavender oil and to send a pan and throws that on the stovetop and just lets it simmer and kind of disappear, and that just dials the house right back in. Yeah, very nice problem. That will improve your marriage. Yeah, because I remember when we used to live in a we used to live in a small apartment and being from Michigan, I fry a lot of fish and my wife be like, how is it even the bath towels smell like fried fish. That's the one thing I wouldn't want to smell like fried fish. Yeah, you get out of the show. Everything else is fair game. But but the irrational behavior there, and I don't mean to be penning. This is not like a guy for this isn't like, you know, like a guy versus wife deal. But this is a guy wrote in where he was complaining about just coping with irrational things. Where he kills a deer, guts it, and then rinses the chess cavity out with I don't know if it was creek water or creek water. I didn't see the actual body of water, but rinses it out with creek water, and now she refuses to eat the deer for fear that it has been contaminated by creek water. And he wanted advice. I have no advice, but in that like, in that situation, you can only point out other activities, like like other things that seem irrational that you need to cope with. And I think that the reason this happens so much in the outdoor for suits, is because you're just dealing with so many unknowns and untested things. Right, it's just and practices to get handed down over time, and things that aren't really you can't replicate it in the laboratory, like certain orders you might encounter that you could never make. So I think that it breeds like breeds uncertainty. So do you guys feel like have you encountered in your personal lives where you've you've had to just live with someone else's irrational belief system. Go ahead. My husband doesn't hunt and I am obsessed with it, and so we are constantly we don't see eye to eye on anything with hunting, but in particular the range finder situation. So he thinks that a range finder is um unethical because it's more ethical than not know how far away it is. So it's a constant battle arrow and guest. He needs to just come with me so he can see what it's all about. But yeah, so I feel like I'm just constantly bashing my head against the wall with some of these theories and opinions. Yeah, that's I should say, it's uninformed. But you know we are going to later give away We're gonna play a game. We're gonna give away a range finding binoculars. So that was a good That was a good too nice, that was a good. Well, I I segued off there. If you'll notice, Sam had like irrational. I didn't come and put with anything for this because you're not highly rational person. No, I mean you've never you're still you're still available, not not married, not married? Correct, you never had a relationship that an argument came out? Okay, So what I okay? So, so It's not that I didn't come up with anything for this. I didn't. I didn't come up with anything that I could say publicly to our audience of hundreds of thousands of of listeners. There's nothing is like it's a weird it's a weird gray or what we're talking about here is a weird gray area of like cute irrational where there's like crazy irrational that you just don't really want to like air to the to the public what it is. I don't have to tell who it is, uh, can I can? All? Right? Okay? Are you talking about like an ex girlfriend? Yeah? Okay, and of what like category of what category, like what life category did the irrational thing fall into? I don't even know which ex girlfriend we're talking about here, but let's start off. I feel like, let's die, let's divide the world into like rooms of the house that way. Yeah, well, yeah, what would be a area of one's existence that the irrational behavior a manifest? I had an ex girlfriend who would clean, like deep clean her apartment every week, and she would like she would go as far as pulling everything out of her freezer just to like scrape out the freezer of ice. Every week I would have hung under her. That sounds like there there's complicating circumstances. That was That was not the reason it ended. Get her phone number. He's like, yes, let's organized maybe, but but I'm like, you put stuff in the freezer to like you know, has to preserve it to hanging onto it for a while, and like I'd stacked it full of elk. I'm like, why are you put alling all of that out there? It's defrosting in your fridge, in your in your sink right now. Okay, so that's good. I found that to be highly irrational. It is, Jimmy, Uh, I don't have a lot to add to this. I'm I'm fortunate. I'm fortunately hello, oh come on here. You talked me into it. You know I didn't want to. I told him I didn't want to talk about this. I am fortunate enough. My significant other, who was sitting right over there, is very rational, grounded. I find very very seldom do I find it. Jim get called, Uh, you know things that'll get me in a twist. I mean, she moves things around. I can't figure out why we're always looking for things that I know right where it's at. But in the grand scheme of things that is a one on the argument scale as opposed to attend. So you know, I'm very fortunate at no, no, ideo it's not boring. It's not boring. It's rational. As you know, it's battles. You just chose. Well I did choose, she chose. Yeah, I'm extremely fortunate. Let me just it's nothing. No, come on, he's gonna come up with irrational behavior by my wife. That's what you're asking me. There's like little things that she does, um that I might like that might bug me, but I wouldn't call like irrational behavior. Well, I would like she did something like that where I don't thing like rents a deer out with creep water and then she was like, I'm not eating that because that water is so much different than stuff that comes out of the faucet. You know, it's rolling down rocks or something, and and it's dirty. Yeah. I'd stop it at that point and say we gotta have a conversation to see this thing, and keep going on in my mind when I'm talking about and my mom talking about it, be that one day my wife caught me letting my kids cut up pumpkins with a machete, and she feels it, and she feels that when someone's holding a machete or an axe or something that it's gonna, like inexplicably like fly out of their hand, which I thought was right. But then one day Callahan who heats holding a cleaver, and she keeps being afraid that it's gonna fly out of Callahan's hand, and so I feel like it's like when she sees a large blade, she feels that it will fly out of the user's hand. And it just strikes me as on par with this. That's all, um. I'm not sure if he's here or not. There's a guy he's fishing up Narrows Park not far from here, on the gig Harbor side Narrows Bridge, and he writes in about how he's everyone around catching all kinds of fish. He's not catching one. This guy here has to do with a diving duck in the eagle. Okay, So he finally hooks a fish and he gets all excited for a couple of seconds until up pops a diver duck that he has hooked, and as he's reeling it in across the surface an eagle. I believe because the level of detail, and eagle comes down and grabs his diver duck off the surface. We used to have the eagles steal our ducks when we're out duck hunting. His it starts flying, singing drag out. He tightens his drag yanks it and gets his duck back. It like gets it free from the eagle is able to bring it in and he's got a superficially hooked unhooks it and lets the duck go on. The duck's fine. That's a fishing story. That's a fishing story. Another guy, that's one of those where the duck gets back to the cattails. He's like, you guys are not gonna be doing He's just like, don't even don't even ask what I've been up to. That's funny because like a duck go through his whole life and nothing really that exciting happens. Remember one time we're yeah, one time we're up in the mountains and we had hung up all of our you know, hung all of our food up in a tree. Bears wouldn't get into it. And then it's like somehow there's like a block of cheese. It didn't get hung up in the tree, and so my brother got up and something kind of like tucked the block of cheese up in a like on top of the game bag, up in a tree. And we come back later and there's a pine squirrel who's discovered the block of cheese, which that's some visional only ever eaten one thing is entire life. And then all of a sudden he finds a block of cheese, which has to seem like really unusual. And on top of that, two large bipedal creatures come after and chase it through the woods. It's like one of the rains of pores. Man, you know, because I'm out here every day, nothing ever had before. Have you ever this is super inappropriate, and I apologize to children in the audience, but have you ever seen a duck's penis? We're just talking about this yesterday. They have excitement every day. That is. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you need to google this. Only three percent of bird species have one penis, yeah, because they have coecause, but the duck has Some ducks have one longer than they are. The spikes on No, that's the vagina. Well, yeah, there's like a spiraled and spiked Yeah, so why why do they have the spikes? Just I mean, I don't want their partner to get away. I guess reason. Alright, No, No, it's a it's a startling it's a startling thing, and it's so funny. As we talked, we discussed this at length last night. Um, it's serious business and and keeping with a Pacific Northwest theme? Are you talking to me? Uh? Pacific Northwest theme? A guy, I like the way this thing starts. He writes in that his brother pregnancy checks. So prag checks cows, arm up and you feel around until it's pregnant or not. And he gets paid in salmon. But but the salmon he gets have never been gutted, if they're frozen gut in salmon. And he wants to know if this is a normal thing or not. I think that is not normal. Well, the commercial fisherman or a recreational fisherman give them to him commercial. Yeah, and then I'd say that's normal, not normal. When I was when I was commercial fishing, we never gutted a salmon, just frolle hole in game. Way. No, I mean I don't know anybody pray checks cows. But yeah, I mean we, I mean every every summer we catch in the scene just gets spilled into the fish hole and freeze to death in thirty four degree refrigerating seawater. So the processor guts it. Yeah, so he just skips the processor. Yeah, I mean, if you're doing if you're singing correctly, you never touch the fish and they freeze guts in. Yeah, no one bleeds them. Well, that's so. I mean, so like obviously there's a lot of types of of of commercial fishing, and like we are primarily targeting pinks um, so it's it's like en mass. And then we pull up alongside a tender usually like bearing sea crab boats. They take a big crane with a vacuum pump and swing it over, drop it in our hold and put in a return tube and just over the course of an hour just suck all those fish out of there. You have to keep the water level just right. And at the end I'd have to go down there and hit boots and to shovel and get up in the corners of the fish hold and and move all the fish. Often try to like scrape them when they get frozen up against like the refrigeration unit. It was really gross, was my least favorite part of the job. But what are you allowed to take fish home? Do you think he's being lazy or do you think he's sneaking them out without being allowed to take well, I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't know, but I imagine, like in Washington, it's it's either sainting or gill netting, in which case you always deliver those fishhole to processors. And and I mean, and you're usually freezing them as soon as you as you catch them because you're just catching so many. I mean, like, you know, the biggest day I ever had, we caught seventy three pounds seventy three thousand pounds of salmon, pink pink salmon in about two hours and the morning then we were on limits. So it was pretty it was pretty cool to be like, I just made three grand. It's not even ten am yet. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So this dude question, though, is that what's that? Do you know what the common like end product is for those pinks that you I think it's dog food and and and and yeah, and a lot of like supplements. Um Can salmon is a good a good part of it, the high quality stuff. But I mean they also they also filet some pink side. Man. I wish I know, knew, I have a lot of a lot of friends in that industry. But um but yeah, I mean it's it's not like it's not like showing up on fancy restaurants for for pinks anyway. And and where kings typically get kings, hippli get caught in um trolling you know situations or or gill netting where they're you know, treated with a different level of care. And and there's there's also there's a big growth in in the kind of the it's not farm to table, but it's like, you know, boat to table. Actually just had a guy hit man. Yeah, yeah, I know, I can know a couple of those guys. And and this guy's just hit me up from Sitka who it's all about, like, no, your fisherman and and he like they do straight like from from the boat. And so those guys are like catching their fish, processing their fish, flash freezing, mailing them off. It sounds like a giant pay in the ask to me. But it's it's cool to see that kind of thing happens. Yeah, this guy's word choice because I just realized he describes these fishes whole as hell doesn't matter. And yeah, like I know you bleed him and that makes the difference on the quality of meat, but doesn't matter, like if you left the guts in and freeze it and then defrost and gut it home to He's trying to figure out because the dude game all these fish. I think, so I wouldn't think the guts would be polluting the meat if it's all frozen. I think it's frozen quick. I've got to for the whole lake trout frozen my freezer right now. He rolls down because they throw they're they're frozen the second we pulled them out of the lake and uh. And then I got home and I had to run out here, and I'm like, I don't wanna I don't want to defrost these things so I could gut them so I can freeze them again, because that's gonna be even worse on the flesh to freeze and thaw and freeze and thaw. So I did. I did think about this for quite a while, and I was like, you know, and I'm just gonna stick them in the fraser. I don't have time. I've left guts in grouse and aged them for seven days and then ate them. Yeah, that's a big thing in Europe, man. Yeah, I tried both. I tried with the gutting and then as long as it's not a gut shot, I've left the guts in and I've aged both for seven days. I mean, it tastes cleaner if the guts have been out, but it wasn't bad, and aged for like made all the difference in the world. It was like cutting sushi. When I was cutting them up, I would have a harder time with that than fish, because well, for sure, yeah, grouse are known for having especially weird smelling guts. I want to get into I want to get into sam and numbers because that's like a real thing that like dominates the conversation around here, and it's confusing as hell, and I'll kind of like lay out, like I pictured like someone from Mars or some outer space planet with just a superficial understanding of the world was listening to the conversation. They would be confused because you have where king salmon numbers are really low, and so people keep proposing different things that we might do, different things we might try to kill off or reduce in order to up salmon numbers. So it's like, oh, we're gonna kill seagulls, sea lions, harbor seals, what else, sawfish, cormorants. But also like name brand, name brand sea, many big list of things, name brand sea mammals that you reduced numbers to get salmon numbers up. But then there's another name brand sea mammal, killer whale or orca, which is the whole other conversation I'm gonna tonight, I'm going with killer whale le So killer whales are suffering from the lack of fish and no one's proposing and they eat nothing but kings, and to my knowledge, no one has proposed shooting them things not since everything else is on the list. Meanwhile, and people be like, okay, another problem with kings. And I'm not a subject matter expert here, this is my homs race. Like another problem that kings have is they're getting too much competition from hatchery fish in the river, so that's that's a concerns and in the oceans. But because the one marine mammal is not getting enough fish, they're now talking about putting more hatchery fish in to make sure that that greene mammal the orca gets enough and then we'll get rid of the other ones. Like like, is it is it as confusing as it seems it is, And it's like right as w DFW is kind of finally coming around the idea that that their intensive, crazy hatchery program has not necessarily been the greatest boon to wild salmon and steelhead, especially steelhead. Now the governor's coming in and telling them to start pumping out more hatchery shin up for the whales, for the whales, So it's it's it's just it's as complicated as all hell. I'm not even from Mars, and I don't even understand. It's supposed to be a band aid, not a long term solution. Yeah, well that's like it seems, I mean, this is this is kind of one of the areas where the conversation about SAM gets interesting in Sam and Steelhead is because you have like, like it's no secret what the main problem is, the main problem being like like a system of dams that blocks fish migration, Like it used to take I think, you know, a fishies to be able to go from its natal stream out to the ocean in three days, and now it takes twenty some days in certain river systems, and so it's exposed to so much more predation. But they're doing badly in rivers that don't have damns too. That's a good point. Yeah, So it's it's it's bad timber practices, it's over harvest, it's changing ocean condition. There's a there's a lot of damns being definitely a primary drop. But I find that like, like, like some people like Callahan's this way has argued this where some people are like if you have this system, like this large systemic problem, being like you have this large problem with dams, and they don't want to entertain the micro fixes. They're like, I don't want to do I don't want to condone micro fixes because I want to just focus on what the main problem is. To be like, if you lost your job and had no money and then you found a dollar on the street, you'd pick it up, but but Colt would be like, don't pick it up because you don't have a job. So it's like I feel like I feel the frustration of people who are wanting to like we we can't control that, Like that's like a huge long term problem, but there are small adjustments we can make and it's like, it makes people extremely upset that you that you entertain the idea of reducing harbor seal populations, reducing sea lion populations in order to try to keep this thing hobbling along while we get up the political and public will to like actually get around to addressing the main problem. Yeah. Absolutely, And if you look at it historically, all these things are really closely tied together. In the territorial legislature of Washington, it was illegal to block an Adremus fish passage that was passed in the late eighteen hundreds UM when they built the dams on the l law that were recently removed. They built the lowest dam, which is some three miles from the from tidewater, with no with no fish ladder, no nothing, just cut it off one of the greatest chinook runs ever known. But they made a deal that was later codified in law that they're like, oh, we'll just make a hatchery and solve the problem. We'll just pump out enough fish to make up for the ones we lost. And then that that was taken forth into the rest of the Pacific Northwest that wherever we hose a salmon run we just we we do Mitigation is is I mean, it's still a word that's just thrown around left and right. But that's where it all derives from. Wherever we wherever we ruin a salmon run, We're just gonna put in a hatchery and solve the problem. It's gonna be all better. What were you guys saying, like, what, what's the typical percentage of with steel head? What's the percentage of steel head that are wild born and hatchery born? Man? I was pulling number out of my ask before, but it's probably less than a quarter anymore that are that are like native. Like, of all the steel head that returned to freshwater every year in Washington, I bet less than a quarter have an out of post fun here, not in the skin. So the Skina region has the healthiest population of salmon in the world. The Club the Columbia used to have the best steelhead fishery, but yeah, we don't have any of that in the Skina. So were you fished the steelhead or wild? Now? Do you? Because you kind of let you like caught your teeth as a steelhead guide and built your career off being a steelhead guide. If you had if you had a picture of crystal ball, how old your daughter? No? Not not sixteen months? Sixteen months? If you if you had to make a guess, like God's got a gun to your head and you got to make a guess that when she's your age, and don't don't play like what you want to have. I think about this every day hitting age. Will she be fishing steelhead? And you have to get it right or else you die like that kind of answer. So I'm thirty seven, So in thirty six years in the skina, I think they'll be here. I don't think they'll be here in the numbers that they are now. I think that, I mean, they're the most, the most resilient. I think that one of the most resilient and will ever fish out there. But they'll definitely be here unless less numbers. It's really scary. Have you have you watched the decline in your own yes? And the shifting baseline is really scary. And these people who were fishing, you know, are they've been fishing for ten years, say and they're like, oh, well, you know, in my ten years, it hasn't been a major difference. But they're just they're not They don't know what the baseline was a hundred years ago. They and and unfortunately a lot of people in my age group, they don't want to learn the history, you know, or they don't want to learn about what happened before them. So yeah, pretty terrified. Yeah. We had a guy at one time describe the shift, the shifting baseline thing. He called it shifting baseline syndrome. Where but but if you don't have that, you would lose your mind. Yeah, well, you know what we're talking about, shifting baseline, like the your perception of the like what our perception of like normal constantly you have too else, but you wouldn't be able to continue being alive, you know. Yeah, I don't know what it's going to be like in in thirties six years honestly, Steve, I spoke to a lot of the government biologists and they they've come over. I don't live in Surrey anymore. You guys will live on the Bulkley up in the skin of country and the biologists will come to my place. And we've had, you know, off the record chats about the fact that these fish are not going to be here unless we seriously put our foot down. But we have to make some major changes, and I don't think that the sports community or the Angland community is ready to make the changes. What are the changes they don't want to make? Uh, fishing for them? I mean they like the fish for him. Yeah, have you quit? No? I mean yes and no, Like I don't look. I don't want to look like I'm sitting on a throne and be like, oh, yeah, I've stopped fishing for them. Because I think everyone makes this decision in their own time. I personally have cut back immensely. I probably catch to steelhead a week maybe, and if I catch us steelhead a day, I go home. But I also understand I live on the river. I'm out there every single day. I don't I don't expect people to make the same decisions I do. So Um, I'm really close to stopping, especially because more that I that I hunt, and the more that I spend outdoors, you know, killing animals, the more I start to question my own reasoning for catch and release. And when you start to question why you catch and release for me anyway, Again, everyone makes this decision at their own time in their life. But for me, it was, Um, I catch and release because I'm selfish, And I'm okay being selfish to a degree. I'm I'm a human, I'm an animal. I don't mind being a little selfish, But um, I have to choose the number on the scale and ask myself, you know how important important it is to me? And when I start feeling like I'm battling or like I'm compromising my integrity, UM, I start to just take a step back. And That's where I'm at now. So, UM, I feel like I'm really selfish out there these days. You know what I had Their day, We're fishing and we were messing around with some tarp and and knowing that you're not gonna do anything to it if you catch it. When it came off, I couldn't make myself care. Yeah, because you weren't going to do anything with it anyway, and you don't want a photo. Was like, oh that's cool, yeah, see you later. But when I'm out there, like, damn cool to hook into it. Yeah, But when you're trying to take the accomplishment, and then when it came off, there was no disappointment. Have you landed a turpan? Though I've hooked three miles four in my life, I've hooked one. I really want to hold one. The first two I hooked, I didn't even. They came out of the water and I just I didn't even. I wasn't even fishing at that point. I was just shocked. Um. And this last one, I held it together for a couple of minutes. It's it's impressive you've caught those probably yeah, uh, huntresses, it's just hit me, hit me. So you want like you reached out April, because you're you're gonna write, you want to write a piece about like our use, like what is the hunters of grandma unts? Well there are actually well hang on, the grandmas don't have I'm right the midle of writing this article, so I'm still accumulating my data. Um, but the horror the huntress has actually been around for a long like since eighteen hundreds, because by definition, a huntress is simply a female who hunts. But the grandma doesn't have social media, and social media is bastardizing that ship, like it's really bad. Well, I don't have enough because like fisherman is more problematic. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, my art I don't have an argument because we're I don't know, I know you don't have an argument, but I'm dying to get to the part of just go ahead. Well, you're putting me on the spot because I haven't actually written the article yet, so I haven't come up with a conclusion write it. You can't write until you think it, and I think about it all the time. I am I am by definition a huntress, I guess, yeah, But I don't call myself a huntress because I don't identify with the modern day use of the word today because temptress, stress, like all these stresses are very sexualized and mistress and look a mistress. I don't know it, just it just sounds sexy. And I think there was like a comic book series with like Huntress or something like that. And again I haven't I'm right in the middle. He just threw me under the bus, by the way. Um, but yeah, I just I I think that hunter is so gender neutral. And we're talking about this earlier. We're in this fox up excuse me age where there's all of this, Like I don't even know how to talk politically correct anymore, because everybody is affected by something. No I'm talking now, but like I just mean, I mean in in in general. In general, it's so hard to refer to different people about what they are because you don't even know what people's gender is. So my point is is in today's age, in today's age, we do we have this word that is so beautifully simple, right, like you hunt and you are a hunter. It's not a hunterman or a hunter hunter woman. You are a hunter. Like we have the most perfect package of a word, and it's still not good enough. Like I just give up. Yeah, like when even when when one's working, it's no good. The reason I threw you under the you know, the reason I brought u up is someone actually rolled in. I don't know if you saw this, but someone rolled in, like here's a question for April that they wanted to be answered tonight. But it's not this one, but one that made me think of this one because this person was recently at what do they put it, They're at an orientation event at a college in eastern Washington, and it was like the person addressing the crowd, what what was trying to it seemed to be I'm paraphrasing. It seemed to be that their tendency was to say you guys, you guys. But they had switched to you all, and so the person was one of like, like, does do you the person is asking you, like, do you take offense by something me saying you guys to you because you all is y'all is not politically correct. I mean not only they came up with y'all as like a gender neutral turn. No, they didn't. Uman. I know it's not offensive, but I don't know. I honestly can't relate to a lot of the people who are offended by that stuff today. I just don't. I don't understand the thought process. Have you guys read the subtle art of not giving a fuck? No? Read it? It's awesome? Yeah? Do you? Um does fisherman? Does fishermen bother you? I know? But I get it. I do get it. Like I understand if someone wants to call me an angler and that makes everyone more comfortable, that's cool. But again, angler, I'm not going to be like an Anglish English anxtress. What is it like a fish stress? If you call me a fishtress? Siss. One of the things that I asked all these women. I reached out to twenty different women from from spear fishing, hunting, and fishing all age groups. I interviewed the woman who fishing bikinis and you know, the woman who would never who don't even own a bikini, and I asked them, you know, what is it? I asked on what the fish version is? And there is no fish version of a huntress. I mean some angler angling women will call themselves a huntress. But um. And then actually, I interviewed as a sixty year old female angler and she says she doesn't like being identified as a fisherman or a an angler because she said it made her feel like she didn't have a vagina, so she likes to be called I know, but I can't. I can't really want to be a fisher woman. And as a sixth year old woman who is my senior, like I'm, I'm I respect her opinion. Um, but no fisherman doesn't offend me or or any of my girlfriends who are are really into it. That's why I like if i'm when I'm depending on the audience, like I'll be writing and I'll catch myself to be inclusive. I'll catch myself using hunters and anglers, which is still really clear, Like we're not pioneering new words. We're using words that have an accepted meaning, and it's not clunky. It's not like clunky to say hunters and anglers. And I was doing a story not long ago for Outside magazine and they were saying, is there what's a way to say sportsmen and people have it's it's clunky, it's sportsmen and women, which I get the sentiment, but it just like if it doesn't reflect a natural way of talking. Sportsmen sounds like sportsmen to me. I don't know, but it's hard because like human human, human whatever, we're not going to introduce it as like huge humankind mankind. I don't know how they I don't know how they fix that sports people sports No, it's I think that the accepted one now is sportsmen and women. But a problem and like everyone's favorite topic is the bitch about PC stuff, which like I understand, but like a problem with it. I think a problem that's coming into culturally with word choice is people are now measuring people. People are not measuring one someone's moralities, some world someone's worldview only on the only on the words that like on the his the words of the use of historic words that come out of their mouth, and not anything about like what the the overall content that, like what they're trying to say doesn't matter, that the some package of what you're saying doesn't matter. It's just they're like listening for the wrong little thing that comes out of your mouth to condemn that rather than like the gist of what you're getting at. And I think that like that's the thing that winds up making me uneasy about this. But I do do now. I just say hunters and anglers because I like, in my heart there's like an inclusivity. But but then at the same time, I don't like things that that sound weird. Whoever said it had to be gender specific? I mean that was the when I call somebody a fisherman, that means that guy's a fisherman, that guy knows what timing is that, or that woman is a hunter, like she knows what she's new, and it's like it's a term of like it's sugar. I lost my train of thought. Yeah, I hear you, man, And to me, it's like unnecessarily divisive. It's like it's like it's like I'm stoked that that hunters are female. Hunters are the largest like grow like there's more the more growth in that than any other demographic within hunting in the last recent decades. That's awesome. I'm glad. I'm glad to see that. But but but why why why do you want to be doing something different, Like why do you want to go out like huntressing. Why can't you just come hunting with the rest of us. It's like, it's just it's it feels like it's drawing lines when they're like trying to be kind of like if women are trying to get in, trying to become of the part of the community, like join the community, like be part of be part of the club, don't like have your own thing. It's but the battle you get is the woman and then we'll drop it. But the battle you get is the woman. I'm hearing from who enjoy the word huntress are badass? Like or again you never know that they call themselves huntresses. But they've identified with that word for forty years because the word has been around for a lot a long time. Um, so it's hard to strip that from them. I get it. And I know badass female hunters who who love that word. I know this, this girl who hunts with a long bow and kills deer and Elk every year, and and I heard her read a poem about how her like her huntress heart and stuff. But every time she says that, I just cringe a little bit. I'm like, I just don't really that word, like I could be convinced otherwise. I'm excited to read the story. I'm excited to write the story. Got to write it before you read it. But I feel like, now you've got a lot of material, already had a lot of material before you threw me under the bus. I want to get into this thing that that's come up in New York. It's the Assembly Bill. It's got an exciting name, a O seven to two, which does this, it's interesting, provides that it shall be unlawful. So this is in the state of New York, far away but large, you know, continent and everything. Um, it should be unlawful for any person to organize, sponsor, conduct, promote, or participate in the contest, competition, tournament, or derby where the objective of such contest or competition is to take wildlife. So it would be illegal to have a salmon, illegal to have a salmon derby, illegal to have screl hunting about all these people competing for follows on Instagram? Is that technically illegal? Yeah? The pointing to kill social media right, Well, what I brought up is my dad and I always used to play a game first biggest, most dollar a category and I love that when I was a kid, like, you know, maybe work harder when we're out fishing, and would charitable fundraisers three bucks between a dad and his son. Yeah, but like all the charitable fundraisers that are run as Derby's. But I know what they're gunning for. They just it's a it's a sloppily written law. What they're gunning for is like you know, the current like the enemy do your which is like kyote un kyote contests, and then there I think also like shark tournaments. Well there there there's legislation in New Mexico right now that's more narrowly tailored than that that's specifically going after kyote hunts, I believe. But in New York they're just like all of it. Two dudes, I bet you I catch a bigger perch. No, you don't know. It's well that that whole that whole squirrel hunt debacle in New Jersey. Did you do you see this at least that spend your new heart. Yea, you guys already talked about that. Yeah, that was wild, like the just like seeing the news coverage of that and seeing all the signs that people had, like lining the road because there's some times as many protesters as there were people doing it was like a kid's family thing, like get everybody out hunting and stuff. And there was some vicious shit about about hunters that I got hard hard even to repeat when years ago, Like the first the first assignment I did for for Outside and I begin writing for them years ago, is to cover a shark tournament in New York called Mako Madness, And I interviewed a proponent of Mako Madness, and he was just saying that, sorry, an opponent, he didn't didn't like the tournaments. And his take was I don't like applying a carnival atmosphere to like the killing of game, which was his perspective. Yeah, but he wasn't a fisherman, right, he was a fisherman, he was. That's interesting. Yeah, so he actually served me some mako shark okay, okay, Well that's interesting then, because I feel like there's a there's a deeper conversation we had there because I've always been kind of uncomfortable with like bass Master Classic and that kind of that thing, that kind of thing, because I think fishing is is is it's kind of a spiritual activity, at least to me. It's it's like where you go to find peace and calm and quiet and really, you know, work on your thoughts and your life philosophy and deal with things and be with friends and commune with nature. And and to see people putting a two hundred horse outboard on the back of a sixteen foot boat that's covered in glitter and it I mean, I mean when I was a kid and when I was eight, if you'd ask me what are you gonna do with your life? I would have said professional bass fishermen. But they're not hurting the resource. They're not hurting the resource, and it's all catch or at least I mean the way they hold the bass by the lip and crank their neck like there's some science, new science out that's saying that's not the best handling practices. That's not my that's not my issue. But the carnival thing, like I mean that that resonates on some level that that to to put like an unnecessary just competitive car. Yeah, just it's just so, it's just it's also seems so loud and loudness to it. But I still opposed, like I opposed the limits. I opposed the drictions because I'm always looking at when when I think about something like this, I'm aways looking at like what is the end game? What is the end game of the person pushing for it? And I think that I think I don't agree with their end game, and so no more fun. Yeah, well, I I disagree with the unintended consequences, perhaps more because I mean, are they gonna ban like the little cute trout Derby's they do in Central Park? Yes, yeah, exactly, Like who's that hurting? You're not even you can't promote it, so you can't even staple the sign to a tree anymore about it. Um, here's a question for someone, Dan Curtis, he's here tonight, his wife Grace. They got a question. It was a long question. I'm trimming it down to a line. Uh, what is the level of etiquette that a hunter should expect upon gifting prime time meet to someone? Prime time like high quality? Mine is high? Like I expect like like when I give something. If I give someone the gift of fisher fishing game, I have very like for them to please me. I need to see a high level of care and then you see prompt use. And that was one of the nicest things when I was living here and Magnolia. I had my neighbor on that side, my neighbor on that side, and my neighbor across from me, and I gave them all a lot of fishing game and they all cooked it real quick like, and it would share with me, sometimes even with photographs, what they had done with it. And then I would the next day bring them more stuff like I would. I would constantly bring stuff over to these guys because I was seeing that return. If you give something and you find in their freezer six months later, I've taken it back. I I was just up at my parents house. My Hi Mom, Hi Dad, And I want you to know that I've started to check your freeze or and I see that you still have some of my elk, and so I'm instituting a rule that I'm not giving anymore until I find that it's depleted. You got it, And she sends me great photos of of the and she's an amazing uh pastry chef and does really cool stuff with it and sends me snapchats or whatever the whole process, and I love that. I think that's a great feedback loop that i'd encourage people to implement. I scored a really good hunt permission one time where a guy let me on his place, his farm, and I just asked, can I hunt squirrels on your farm? No one else was hunt squirrels. And I got some squirrels and went home and made dinner with the squirrels and texted him a picture of what I made with his squirrels. He texted me back that I can hunt deer and elk on his place or deer in Turkey's on his place. Yeah, he was so impressive. People like to see it. That's all it takes. How to score your next deer hunting permission? Right there, Steven Ronnellae that squirrel and he'll let you hunt in his place. Yeah. I was gonna say if I like I get some meat recently to some folks, and um, I haven't heard back from them, but it got me thinking because I was gonna ask him next time I run into him. You know what you do how was it whatever? Because recently I did that with some other folks that had given me too, maybe six months ago, and I was like, hey, what did you do with the hall of it some hollibd that you've given me? And uh, I got the answer like, yeah, we ate it. I was like, you just say that that's all you got for me, and it's kind of in my mind, I was like, it's good you tell the story that way because that better reflects. That better reflects what the question was, because the question was about a gift and there was no you know, like, so how was it? There was no you wanted the person to be like this, but wait a second, so you regifted his halibut though, yeah, so how do you feel on your healibet? Well, if I gave that's fine. I just I only care about the end. If I gave someone something and then they gave it to someone and that person came and was like this to me, that's great. It's just knowing that because in my mind, I'm doing people just a normal good turn, but I'm also doing like I'm also trying to like publicly elevate the status of the resource so that people will look at the water and look look at the mountain or whatever, and they'll be like, Oh, there's that thing, this thing, this giant, beautiful thing that produced this wonderful thing that I ate, and therefore I recognize the value of the of the producing habitat. I'm kind of getting at and I'm also kind of trying to be like a nice dude, but yeah, like bringing up like elevating the resources, elevating the things that promote the resources, and so I don't give a ship who in the end wise though, having it another question, and this is like a really like you and I talked to April. You and I talked about this one a lot a long time ago. But this is this is a good This is an ethics conundrum where someone don't don't what's that thing like, don't like killing the messenger. I'm reading up this, I'm paraphrasing A thing of dude is saying how the pursuit of white tales with a bow is one of the only times and inferior implement is considered morally superior. Using a spear would be further inferior and difficult. But there are very few advocating the moral purity of spear hunting. That's like a very legitimate point. It's like people feel great about using a bow but not a gun. But and if you use a spear, you lose all your sponsorships. Remember that dude that Yeah, that's what people didn't celebrate him. It was. So it's like rifle, this kind of moral um bow, this kind of moral spear. It's confusing. That's always confusing some states. And he's not done. He's not done. Likewise, a person could choose to commute in a model T or hand saw lumber for a home construction project. Making those choices would certainly make the tasks more arduous, But I doubt anyone considers the Model T commuter stuck in the Lincoln Tunnel to morally superior to those in air conditioned cars. Choosing a weapon which increases the perceived personal reward level for the hunter at the expense of a quick, in humane kill is a dreadful, selfish act. His words. Let the hunt be challenging, Let the train be difficult, the game reclusive and wary, the location parallel, perilous to access, add difficult to do the hunt in places where the quick dispatch of an animal doesn't hang in the balance. When it comes time to complete the most important task of hunting, choosing a weapon with the highest likelihood of an ethical and immediate kill is the highest moral ground. So what's the question? I like this guy. The question is, uh, you would express this to me before I had questioned you, before you question about it. I'm just wondering where you're at on it, because that like a say yeah, I put I hold like I struggle with how to. I know that I can tear his argument down. I just know that it's it's hard to do it. Look, I'm do it a minute. Do you want it? I'm gonna try go for it. I want you to go first. Well, I had asked Steve when I had Steve on my show, I had asked Steve if it was more ethical to kill with a bow or a gun, because I hear conflicting reports and I've only been hunting for I don't know four years, So for me, I was hearing all sorts of different reports, and a lot of people were telling me that a bow was more humane, and um, the more I looked into it, the more I was finding that's actually kind of a gray area. So no, it's not a gray area. Well, do you think that they like look at capital punishment? Do you feel that you could you imagine a situation where the administered capital punishment with archery equipment, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, they use those guillotine broadheads, like a big nine inch cutting blade guillotine. Bro. So, since leaving you and and looking more into it, like this year I went out with a gun. I was going to fully try to get one with a gun. I get stuck in limited situations when a when I've got my baby on my back, I'm obviously stuck with a bow. I'm not going to take a shot with her on my back with a gun. And um, some of the properties that I hunt like in Australia especially, I can't have a gun, so I'm limited to the bow and same with obviously different seasons. But if I can take an for me, I wanted to be the most most ethical shot possible. I know we had this conversation, you said, the animal doesn't care. You know it's going to die. But I would like to get as close to the animal as possible, so I know I'm making the most accurate shot as possible. I don't care if it's a gun or a bow, but I need to know it's the most humane shot that I can make given my situation, whether I've got the baby or whether I've got um property access. Like when I think about the question, I think about why, Like I see what he's getting at is the only thing about I think that he's um. He's stripping this like really complicated thing down to a simple thing, because like taking something that has many inputs and considerations and acting like the one consideration is like is how quickly one can administer death to this thing you're trying to hunt for? And it's like I guess you, I guess. Just to give a really honest answer about it, is I have a lot of other factors that I'm considering in and you also have you also have like resource level things where the lack of efficacy if like if bows, if a bow is less less effective than a gun, the lack of efficacy allows more people to participate in the activity. That's why in so many places you can get an over to everybody that wants can go archery hunting for something, but every thebody that wants can't go rifle hunting for something is because the efficacy does it so if we were really going to play the game to the end, it would probably be that you had to put out like a specific bait laced with um like lace with a sleeping agent in a poison. If you're really if the only goal was always like if the only thing that hunters cared about was just like administering death as quickly as possible, you'd use grenade launcher, you know what I'm saying. So it's like if you no, I'm saying, if you're gonna chase that, if that's gonna be the only thing you care about, the only thing you chase. I don't know that we've really arrived at the right answer, because it's just more complicated. And I do think that, like if you factor in that that if you hit someone with a bow and you get a shot and you double along it, it has enough time to go twenty yards and die, or it falls over and dies much more quickly. UM. I think that hunting is like that, there's a selfish act. What you're like, you're doing a thing for a bunch of personal reasons, and in in the reward one gets for doing it in a in a way like a difficult way, like a bow and the amount of discipline and skill that it takes. It's it's a it's a cold calculation, but maybe that reward that one feels outweighs that three seconds of right like that gain for you and your calculus outweighs the three seconds of stress that the thing has as it crosses the stage and dies over there. Maybe for some people, not for me. I would take any weapon then I feel I can get the job done with most efficiently fastest I just have. I started with a bow and it just kind of stuck from there. First gun I really shot, was it your house is right? Yeah? I still shot that motherfucker in your backyard. That's good. N I don't know when hunt became like morally better? People act like it's way more you say people. You say people, but what people are? They all name names, I know, but they're like a group or like can you break it down? And I feel like it was just a piece in the wall street That's what I'm hearing. And Sam just hit it on the head. And same reason with why I started with the bow hunting is that I was everybody would be like or people I would meet be like, oh yeah, Hunt, But I'm a bow hunter, so as a non hunter someone looking to get into it, I kept hearing this and I thought, well, that's just I mean, it's the rednecks who shoot guns. And I heard someone just say fly fisherman and that that is for me. It was a lot of that. A lot of these fly fishermen were getting into or into bow hunting, and they would they would say that there were parallels and that it was the equivalent to fly fishing. Um, And they just made it sound like it was more ethical. And that's why I asked you, is it more ethical? Because these bow hunters were saying to me, yeah, you don't interrupt the environment, you know with the sound, which is ridiculous because I was bow hunting all fall and I could hear guns everywhere, like it didn't didn't make a difference where I was. Um. But the more I think about just the I just I don't know, I don't see how it is more ethical. Can you guys prove me? Theoretically? Leveling the playing fields somehow doing people that don't hunt, or they're like, oh, you're giving them you know, Oh well I had to sneak up instead of just you know, you've got guys now eight yards away, and you know the whole people, you know, non hunters. You know, I live in Seattle, I'm surrounded by him. You know, there's lots of ways to pass judgment, but it's an easier way to gain some sort of you know, legitimacy to it being it's like, well, it's hard, you know, it's it's hard. Is hard. Let's be straight. It's not harder for me to hard to worry about hard ethical Hard is not ethical. It's two different things that you're asking. The question is to why it's relevant. Yeah, and and and it is. It is a lot of non I think this bring that forward. And I also think that like new hunters to like, I've had a lot of my friends who have got into hunting in their late twenties early thirties, and it's been fascinating to me to see the issues they have to wrestle with that have never, you know, never never bothered me. Like you know that, Like you know, I I grew up like like shoulder deep in salmon guts and and and you know, bonking fish on the head and and helping put your deer and and all that. So like the death part has never you know it. I think I kind of walked walked over that threshold before I had quite the mental capacity to really wrestle with it. So it's always felt very natural. But people who are coming into it later really have to surpass some of these difficult questions, like how they feel about taking a life just for the sake of sport and sustaining their own life. And I think some people, I think a lot of people feel better about that if it feels more fair to them. And what I always say is rifle hunting for ELK is plenty fair. Like I mean, in Washington, it's gonna be less than ten percent of people who buy an ELK down matter where successful. Yeah, absolutely so. I'm like, if you want to be hard, only walk backward, Like only walk backward with a rifle is really challenging, Yeah, Or be responsible rifle hunter, like like you guys do. Like a rule you guys have that I've adopted of not taking shots past four hundred. I mean, I haven't taken a shot past three hundred and long in long, long time. It's just a close in the gap. That's all it was for me, was closing the gap. I still if I have a gun in my hand, would rather get closer? Sure? Yeah, just for me, It's all about closing the gap. It's the fun part. Okay. If you could, uh, if you could snap your fingers and automatically be an absolute master of one hunting and fishing skill. What would the skill be? Sneaking up on stuff? Okay? Yeah? Figuring out how to stay quiet, keep my heart rate under control, just like deep breath, see what I'm doing, get the wind right, not let my the excitement of the moment, just taking that deep breath and figuring out, all right, the winds this way. I need to go this way like my once I can because I have good notes, I can like once I'm in it, all of a sudden, my old game plan in every magazine or book or podcast, the thing that I've read goes out the window, and it's like my heart rates at like one forty and I'm like, you know, and then you're trying to do everything correctly. Yeah, if I could just stay calm for a minute, that would be mine. Are you hip to guys who have been using beta blockers to do that? Well? Define beta blockers. I've pretty much tried everything. No, it's like, what the hell is it. It's like it's like a medication. People take the medication for some reasons then find that they don't get buck fever anymore. Yeah, and like you're not like there's it's a band substance. Like people that shoot, uh competitive pistol shooting and stuff, they can't use beta blockers calms you down too much. Maybe I should look into beta blockers. Yeah, guys talk about get no. Dudes say that their doctor would put them on a beta blocker. And also they realized that when a buck comes in, they don't get panicky as panicky. I don't get panicky. I just get you know, in the moment you're there. I just li show wasn't better right if one skill quiet and just quiet as a generality, mentally quiet, mentally quiet, and then also just to be able to read this sick of the circumstance. I think the one thing that like the thing that I missed out on is um it was lazy about is all forms of calling because I've always was for whatever reason, uh would be with someone who is better at it than me and then let them be the one that did it. And that went on and on and on that went on and on and on and now here I'm in like my forties and I've always like my early when I was a little kid, my lollard Danny was a really good caller, So we hunt a dugs. He is called to shut up because Danny was good at it, and then like you know, hunting out with the honest. Honest is a great caller, so he just calls um and yeah, missing out on like like that that and it's never too late, but that that I didn't cultivate that skill and I'm only now just like a you know, getting better at it. Well I kind of suck at it. I mean I make up for it in other ways a little bit. But yeah, that was that's been a real miss man. Like I'm I'm sorry interrupt, But the process is fun. I mean I get this game, and I enjoy playing the game and just throwing out something that we could just like not have to learn and experience to get better. But like if we're not sitting here saying that we don't enjoy like going through learning buck fever and how to you know, get over it and learning calls for I mean, yeah, we've been at it for twenty years now of like was freaking latex and glue in our mouths. Just yeah, you know, is over and over and over and and but like you got to enjoy that, that not being good and becoming good. I think that process right, Yeah, I think the journey was seemed hard for me. You know that's my regret. You didn't enjoy it? No, I didn't enjoy it. Yeah. I if I could and snap my fingers, become a master or something, I improve my my archery shot I've been doing. I've been doing an archery league at that little shop down the street from the office, and god have been a mess, Like because I archery practice has always been like a solitary thing for me. I'd like you shoot my backyard growing up, or go out to the range and zula by myself. But shooting with the last week they had like a they had like a steel barrel on a swivel that would like go around to both ends were cut off and it would like it wasn't it wasn't like a slow spit. Oh my god. It threw me to what the hell is that supposed to teach you? But I don't, I don't know, like as like an elk passes through the gap like yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, But I mean having a bunch of people around and like, you know, coming into it cold. Like the first day I rolled up and I was already late. Everybody had started, and I like, pull out my bow and get ready. I'm like, oh, all broadheads great, and one still has elk long all over it. Um, And so it's just I just, uh, yeah, I could do so much to be a better bosh. I've been doing it for fifteen years, and I still feel like I have a long ways to go to reach that, you know, those that ten thousand hours or reach mastery. Uh. One last thing I want to touch on and then we're gonna play our game. Oh you just did it. Did you know? What was my thing that I was going to become? The process of column I was just enjoying. You can go three times. I don't care. He wants some master enjoying the process of learning things. Oh yeah, please. Um. If I could just snap my fingers and just like one thing I could just master in the whole honey and fishing world, it would just be how to manifest and just conjure up animals, Like when I look at that hill and be like there he is the manifestations is dad knows how to manifest? Yeah? No, in all, in all seriousness, it'd be tracking. Oh yeah, to have that skill just to like without even like bending over from six ft too well, my eyes are probably at six ft just to look down and be able to just to see, you know, way ahead, just follow, you know, the best guy. The best people I know that are people that refer trappers. Yes, I agree, because just like for hours every day, hours every day you being one of those people and little teeny clues man, little teeny clues. Um, okay, we gotta do our deal. How are we gonna you know, we didn't do Simon, I don't know what we didn't do giving stuff away to to to do seeing through the bullshit? Oh right, yeah. But there's the thing I want to talk about real quick, and so many people are written in about it. It's like this is one of those you guys don't need to say anything. But we've had so many people right in about uh, a border wall on our southern border, Like what does a border wall mean for wildlife? And like every day someone writes in the box has been in the news so much. But whether we're gonna build the border wall or not. But I find that people get mad, Like people don't want to hear the answer. They don't want to hear about it because they don't want it to um challenge. However, they feel about it because you could have, you could have. There's a very legitimate argument to be made. You want to build a border wall, and you should be able to think that well, knowing everything that that would mean. Right, like if you're saying too, if you're talking with your spouse, but whether you're gonna go on vacation, and you decide like we're gonna go on vacation, and then someone points out, well, if you go on vacation, we're gonna have less money and our savings account. No one gets mad at you for pointing that out. So does the wall affect wildlife? Like how could it? Like? Absolutely it does. It cuts off like people keep writing in about like it's some kind of mystery. You're denying access to water, to certain things, and you're preventing the movement of animals. And since since the dawn of time, wildlife has moved freely back and forth across the border, and like jaguars come in and out awesol lots come in and out, desert, big horns, prong horns, cou's deer, mule deer in some places, even bison um. And then historically you had speci ease that would like, for instance, at that they think that at the end of the place the scene, we lost mountain lions and what's now the Lower forty eight and mountain lions only lived to the south and recononized back and forth. So there's always been this exchange going on. Um. And if you are saying you want to if one's gonna build an impenetrable wall, you're gonna impede the exchange. But that that's not like solving the question of whether it needs to happen in my mind, But it's just like a factor that one has to wait. But like people get pissed when you bring it up. I think you could bring it up and realize that that's the truth and still think that that's what you want to do, But it's just the reality. I know guys who hunt that border country you live down there, who are super worried about it things. I think it's gonna mess up there deer hunting. Yeah, I know people who are worried about uh people coming across. I know those people in that danger and worried about the danger of wildlife. It's just a big It's just a big it's a it's a massive issue. But people right in acting as though like there's like this sort of debatable answer. But I feel like it's like not debatable. It would be they would have implications for wildlife doggie doors or something to That's what I keep wondering about. Man, I haven't heard a guy. I even heard a guy making the case. Yeah, a special code that animals doggie door for desert mule here, and yeah code doggie door a little thing. I've even heard people talk about the implications for lowifying birds and insects. But yeah, do guys. I'm talking about our hardcore quail hunters who hunt like right down by the border. And I mean, I can't imagine quail. I couldn't figure it out. But they don't tend to fly super high, so it might be problematic. I don't know how are we gonna pick someone who play see through the bullshit? I gotta figure it out, do it. I'll combine it with our other thing that we're gonna do you like that. I love it, and I'm just gonna go for the upper end of yeah. Alright, So a couple of things we're gonna do tonight. Well, I'm just gonna bring anybody down first, Okay, if it's your birthday today, not tomorrow, not yesterday, but today, come on down to the stage. Is there anybody in the house? Was birthday? Is it today? Oh? Yeah? Birthday? Birthday too, that's it. We need the oldest person who's having a birthday now. But then you're disqualified. You're disqualified from the other thing you get for having a birthday. I was just gonna be super nice to them and the um zora come down. How many we got? Looks like I see more change? Thirty five? Is anybody older than thirty five today? Heard us? They're coming down. They'll be about an hour and they'll be down here telling the rules. Jannes first Seen through the Bullshit? All right, I'm gonna play a game called seeing through the Bullshit. You might also know as a I've never played the drinking version of Two Lies and the Truth? Have you no anybody here? Oh? How old are you? That's all right? That's all right, hang out, hang out. That we got more though, coming down from the old time, We're coming from up high. Okay, So telling the rules. Um so, whoever we choose pick, We're gonna tell you, guys, uh, two lies and one truth, and then if you can guess which one is the true story, then you've seen through the bullshit, seen through the bullshit. Get to take home this brand new pair of Fury laser range finding binoculars that will laser range find reflective stuff at five thousand yards and deer at a thousand plus. Steve's hitting some couz deer in January. Um at, like with these sockers, lifetime warranty. Hold you So, how do you No one's gonna beat that. It's not all right? Coming up? I'm getting okay, So you're giving up your spot? I am okay. So what happened to our person? She's coming coming, come coming back, coming upstairs? There it is, Come on out. What's your name? I gotta see where you right here? Hi, nice to meet you there, Take my scene, take my hand. Happy birthday, Happy birthday. So what's your name? Clari? Okay, Clary. We're gonna tell you sister, just so she knows, gonna sit close to her so that possibly they can pick up her voice on my microphone. Are you comfortable with that? Okay? Where you're not American? England? Okay, welcome. All these stories are distinctly American. How long have you been here? Okay, you're a good all right? Did you hear the rules for the game? Okay, you're busy walking down. So we're gonna tell you. Um, who's telling them? Sam? April. I'm gonna tell a story. April's gonna tell a story. I'm gonna tell a story. Sam's gonna tell a story. It's gonna tell a story. One of them is true. You just need to identify the true one. Let's start with your honest Okay. Um, everybody knows that you can take goats and put them in a pen and goats, yes, and forced them to eat knap weed and other types of weeds, and then you can let them. They'll they'll sort of become accustomed to it, and and that will become their diet. When you coutmeme loose out in the wild, they'll eat the weeds and they don't eat the native And that's the way that we here in the States we get rid of weeds out on you know, wide open pastures in the forest. It is well, it gets better. So there's a problem here in Washington where there's a pod of orca's. You may have heard of the Southern pod, southern resident pod that only eat chinook sal salmon, right, have you heard about this? Oh? Well, you people, just you guys are gonna be you guys are gonna be allowed to help later. We're gonna let you help later, but let us get through the stories before you start. You all, you all. I wouldn't trust them quite yet because they have no idea. Yes everything hunters and huntresses, thank you hunters huntresses. So so even you irrational ones out there. Um, okay, So there's uh state of Washington that they got a problem with these orcas because there's not enough salmon for them to eat, so they're getting skinny and they they're they're not doing well. So, um, there's another pot of orcas out that that go up and down the coast that eat mammals like sea lions, seals and whatnot. So what they're thing about doing is making a net and capturing a few of these Southern pod orcas and actually taking seals that they've caught and like cutting off a fin or a chunk of the tail and putting it in the net with these orcas to sort of start getting the orcas to feed on these um the seals to then turn them into predators that work off the seals and not be just you know, so uh um so word I'm looking for. We're relying on the salmon. Okay, they're just looking into that. Okay, that's fine. Now you're familiar with the state of Wyoming. Okay, there's a big reservoir called Flaming Gorge and whelming a dude is they're fishing, and he cuts his thumb off on his boat prop in July, Okay, that winner. A feller is fishing through the ice and catches a lake trout, opens it's got up and finds a thumb in its gut. They connect the feller that lost his thumb with the feller that found the thumb. The guy comes and has a look and he says, I think that's my thumb. And he now keeps the thumb in a are formalde hyde on his mantelpiece. Care, Sam, So are you familiar with Catalina Island off of southern California. So for a very long time. They've had problems with feral goats eating. Yes, big, big problems. They can't get rid of them. It's a big island, very rugged terrain. They've tried all sorts of different solutions for getting rid of them. Back in the seventies, the US Fish and Wildlife Service proposed planting coyotes on the island, which would naturally kind of take care of the goats. But obviously they're worried about creating a new invasive species. So what they proposed to do was plant a subcutaneous cyanide pill inside the coyotes digestive tract that would break down over the years, so after they've done their jobs, they would expire with cyanide. No, yeah, because somebody else could then eat them and then they die. And you may be unfamiliar with the goofy stuff wild game managers have done in this country. Talking about the seventies, that's when animals were harmed in the making of movies. That's when they were capturing its thumb back from the belly of a lake trout or the orchid project that they're gonna start feeding them new um cut up seals to get them to turn them into better predators or the cyanide pill filled coyotes. I'm you got it here, It's okay. Here's the thing they are. Someone in Australia is looking at how to do a time capsule death dingo, that's where we got it from. That's where we got it from. It won't happen. I guess Australia's bigger than what do you can do with those? You win a prize a really nice price. That's a paraminoculars that have a laser range finder built into him. Oh oh did you? I was just gonna ask, are you sure you came to the right show tonight? Up? My chicken thinking why are they gonna stall singing? That's coming next? The Power. We're like, don't cry for me, Argentina. Oh wonderful, thank you about appreciate

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