00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything, alright, So right off the bat, before we even introduce everyone, Jason Phelps, I'm gonna we're gonna build, We're we're gonna create an elaborate We're gonna create a scenario. Okay, okay, and you're gonna respond to the scenario, like like how you would suggest people to respond to the scenario? All right? Now? Who um, who can do like a pretty convincing gobbl noise? Oh? Mark? Yeah? Mark Kenyon, going me a sample for you? Yeah? Let me yea, let me let me Okay, So you guys, you know how you know when when you get a couple of glars gobbling over each other, and then who can be an angry hen? I'll go, I'll go angry. Hen You're gonna be a You're gonna be you're the boss gobbler, marks them. We haven't even got to do get out yet, Okay, marks the boss gobler. And Remy's like the guybler always tries to gobble over the boss gobler. Okay, and we need a angry hen. I can't do it now? Can anyone do an angry hen who's doing that? Oh? No, aid of yeah, but I want her like angry. Okay, So okay, So here you are. I'm gonna paint the scenario for you. All right, Okay, it's Jason Phelps Felts game calls. You've been making a lot of calls. I have just like our dudes buying turkey calls right now or did they already buy them? They are still right up to the last day, right up for the last week buying. There's still guys like now that it's opening day tomorrow. But the typical responses, Hey, if I ordered the day, can you get him out tomorrow? And when they beat at me by the next day, can you have my can you have to my camps up? Yeah? No, it's okay. So here you are. It's dark, okay, and and uh you're a hundred fifty yards away, and here's what's happening. Okay, So that's what's going on. Okay. So we're gonna do real soft tree ELPs if they're still on the tree. So this is so okay. So so you're you're calculating they're up in the roost and you're gonna this is how you're gonna do it. And no, Paul, it's not gonna be a lot. You know, drag goes out. Well, these galblers are low t because normal goblins would have been all over that. Yeah. So if my calling is that bad that they won't even respond out of the root to my to my TREEO. Um, so that's your TREEO? Really quiet? Four to five yelps? And what are you think of when you think in the trio, I'm just letting him know. Ideally I'm still on the tree as a hen. You know, they they they're pretty good at pinpointing. But I'm trying to let them know there is a you know, a hen over in that tree, and say trio. When you say trio, you're saying that, not that you're yelping to them in the tree, but you're in your tree too. Still on my tree, I haven't flown down yet, so I'm trying to paint that picture. You may, they usually roost next to some other hands. They knows it for sure, thing, But I want to let him know, Hey, there's another hen that's over here. Okay, hit me with the tree. Help again. And so by their instant response, I know they just heard that, and so I may not get really aggressive. I might do. That's enough, um, just to just to acknowledge that, because I'm getting to a part point in my life where I feel like, if I was better at mass, I would figure if he made no noise at all, What are the knowing that it's a three sixty degree circle around the gobblers tree? What are the odds that he's just gonna walk past you anyway? And it changes the farther out you get. I feel, yeah, it would be a good math question because I feel like I have like I feel like, as much as you think you're gonna call gobblers off the roost, it probably works about as many times? Is what the odds are that he's gonna walk through year five degree band? Yeah, I'm gonna say, I'm I'm pretty good at turkey off the roost math, and it's usually zero times, like fow tries, so zero percent that thing. No matter what, I've never still to this day killed the turkey off the roost. Yeah, I've been there when it's happened, but many But then I feel like, well, yeah, eventually, eventually it makes sense that he'll leave the roost and when he has, and he'll pick the spoke of the wheel that I happen to be sitting up. And that's the times. But now, so who is the angry hen? Yeah? Well yeah, okay, so now then we hit you with this scenario now, and then i'nna hitt you with another scenario. So here's the scenario. Um, you're angry handing it. I can do that too, I guess. Okay, So so rem hit your go well, hit your tree out, and Mark hits your angry hand. Okay, now what are you thinking? Has your thought changed? So he did he call it before? He called it before I did my tree up, so he never acknowledged me. I may tree up again and see if I can get him to spark off on that. Yet, let's try. I just want him to all right, and then I'll probably be quiet. I want him to come, even though the angry hand is now angry. Yeah, I mean you don't want to. They're typically fairly quiet in the tree, so you don't want to overdo it. Why you're still on the tree and it's too dark to pitch down, so you're just trying to He's acknowledged me now and then I'm gonna be quiet until they do heat up the right before they fly down, so we may get back in the game at that point. Yeah, because then they hit the ground and then so and so often never make a peep because I mean, they made eye contact, they know what they're after. They don't need to communicate at that point, and so they seem to kind of they get pretty active right before they pitched down, and then kind of go silent there for a little bit, and then they'll pick back up. And I'm gonna hit you with a notice scenario, and this is the one that gives me a little chub. So all this happens and then nothing comes of it, and then you kind of wander around the woods all morning and around ten am, okay, which is when a lot of turkeys get shot, at least the ones I shoot at around ten am. All of a sudden, Now what are you thinking? So before I make a sound, I want to get as close as close as the terrain and the vegetation will allow, before I make a peep. He's just he's just giving up his location. I want to be as silent as I can. I'll get as close as it lets me and then I'll sit down and I'm going because he's been out love making the hands all morning, they all drift off and so before that happens. Also, what's going on in my head is this thing just let off a beagle in the middle of the day by himself. He's probably looking for hens at that point you all the hens went into lay um and so I'm already thinking this is a you know, not a for sure thing, but my odds are very very high at that bird. As you mentioned, you're you're killing them at tend to to noon um, very very high in that tend to two window um when they gobble. So I'm gonna go get set up and I'm gonna go to my seven to nine note you know, yelp, And if I can only bring one call in the woods, it would be this, your typical yelp. So this is what you're hitting the middle of the day, hot gabbler yep. So we'll go sit down, little and so we'll react to that gobble thing a little bit, you know, is if he gobbles all, maybe try to turn the temperature up um with the yelps, and then if he becomes disinterested, we'll maybe give it five ten minutes and then go back. I'm not really good at be impatient. I say five to ten, which is probably like thirty seconds, and then I'll call again. Okay, so now here he is and he shuts up, but you can hear him who knows how to make a spit and it's spitting and drum and I could do this. It's uh yeah. So you're hearing that and it just drags on. You're like, what are you going on? Then? What are you gonna hit him with? Then we we'll switch the real subtle um clucks, purrs, maybe you know, even scratching the ground next to me. A lot of times when I set up, I'll try to bring some brush or some leaves next to me. We'll we'll scratch around and that just real subtle noise. At that time, they can try to get him to the pull in that last twenty or thirty yards or whatever it may be, because you're trying to sound like a hand scratch that that purr and clucks, that real content sound, and so you don't want to necessarily want to blow him out anymore with that louder yelp or you know, excited cackles. You're just really trying to get him that last little bit or what we did in some instances. A lot of times we'll play this cat and mouse where you change setups and you just won't come close. Sure, we may give a little call and then we just go silent and like all right, well, you know there's a tricky here. You get to the you know it's in your hands now. So it hit us with some of those more subtle tones tones tunes that and as I mentioned the mark earlier, that that read's not meant to purr. It's more of a that yelper read. But you know, if if I had the right read and we do some pern just as real light subtle clucks um and just real quiet sounds. Yeah, the first time I ever hunted with a really good turkey caller that he never did you know we were. This is in South Carolina, which is like well known for having wildly kg turkeys, and dude, he never ripped out. Like everything he would do was just like just he's so subtle, little teensy noises, you know, when you're on the woods and hear something to do with a box call. Right. But then near day I was on YouTube and if there's a video of a real live hen who full balls out yelps sixty two times in a row. If you were in the woods and heard that, you think that is some idiot over there to the box call going crazy on a box. So yeah, real subtle sounds when they're in tight If you can hear spinning drum and can't see the bird yet, um quiet, Yeah, not last thing on turkeys. A couple of years ago, hunting in California, I was doing that, calling back and forth to a gobbler gobbling. I'm calling, gobl, I'm calling, and it just drags on and evenci I'm thinking to myself, I'm gonna go over to a new spot and try to call him to the next ridge. But in traveling over there it takes a while, so I don't make any noise for fifteen minutes to get to the next ridge. By the time I get to the next ridge, I call and as some bitches standing right right left from exactly because he eventually got curious there's no noise for so long, he's like, what happened to We had such a thing going, like what happened to her? So then I call and I'm like Oh, now he's gobbling right from where I was sitting. So the I just shut up. In a while later, sure enough, here he's standing there. I just got because he enjoys. I think he was enjoying whatever bird version of enjoyment is. He was enjoying that little deah the game. Yeah, um, so make a big plug for make a big plug for Phelps game calls. Man, not good at that stuff, but no, um so we've I'll do it. Let me take a stab at you. Let me take a stab at it. Um. In an American elbow grease story where a guy pounding away making high quality calls and making a nice good business cranking away in his home builds a business up and makes like phenomenal calls and insiders. No, the Phelps calls are right? How's that? I love it? Now you do something like that like this whole a promotion thing is just not good with me. Um No, we well you want to plug someone else's called? No, you know, I think some people you know, listen to your podcast of the story. Um, it's just been a lot of passion, and this whole company has been driven by pass We wanted to build the better mouse trap. Um, come up with the specific sounds we were we were looking for, and UM, we're pretty excited. You know, we've we've did very well with the Turkey calls. Majority our elk calls are our bread and butter still UM, but we're really excited as we move into the next year. We've got a full Predator, lion, waterfell line, UM Deer call line. Everything's finally going to be where I kind of envisioned it way back when we started. So we're pretty excited to kind of get out of that elk call rat UM Turkey call sprinkled in, but we'll have a full Turkey call line and UM will be kind of a complete UM call company at that point. So your phone call is the best, the most effective black Bear call I've ever used, and spring black Bears coming up. That's coming from Callahan and we'll get around intros a minute. UM UH website, UM www, dot Phelps, Game Calls, dot com. UM we're you know, for everybody's on social media. We're very easy to get ahold of UM contact UM, your messages, emails, all of that stuff is on the website and on social media. Excellent man, Thanks coming out and doing Turkey primer. Yeah, we're gonna rush this episode into into into being so that people can capitalize on that. All right, on the on those sweet sounds and sweet notes. Um, okay, it's a huge room full of people. Uh, as though dealing poker. We'll do intros. It's more like a small room full of people. Yeah, small room full of lots lots of people to brody strapping into a set. Good, Yeah, hit it, introduce yourself there you go here, I am b h a rendezvous. How to drive ten hours north to uh to leave winter behind? It's all nice up here now, beautiful and down and you're part of the in your neck of the woods. Almost died like five minutes from my house driving yesterday was the snow. Yeah. Mark Kenyon here from Michigan. Mark Kenyon, Wired to Hunt podcast. Yes, sir, we still have winter at home too. It's no good. Remy Warren, Remy Warren, just hanging from Reno from Reno. You're on your honeymoon? Fijis it got colder for me? Ryan Callahan pH a Rendezvous podcasting first Light and uh Mark Boardman. Mark Boardman worked for Vortax Optics out of good old Wisconsin, And yeah, enjoying the lovely weather we're experiencing in Boise at the dh A rendevou. Okay, we're gonna um, We're gonna cover a handful of things. But first off, we got a mega correction, mega correction. Like people were kind of irate, like this is one of things that one of the biggest corrections, the biggest wrongs we ever have had is I screwed up and was reading how the how it's a it's a double layered screw up. Keep explaining honest, yeah, let me let me, let me why why you're doing that. I'll sort of set up the screw up. We were already discussing some issues about baiting in Alabama, where in Alabama you've always been allowed to um do supplemental feeding for deer, but you couldn't bait for hunting purposes. So they came in and tried to clarify the distinction between supplemental feeding for deer and hunting purposes. And once they spelled it out, it seemed to have, according to some people, invited a level of interpretation where it said, for instance, it can't you know, it has to be a hundred yards away from you, like you're if you're hunting, any bait has to be more than a hundred yards away from you. It has to be out of sight from you from a landscape feature. And a guy rode in to say, well, people are exploiting this now and in putting a bait behind a big hay bale yards away and saying well, I can't see it, right, And it was causing this confusion, and that led to this other thing where the House in Alabama, the state House voted to just outright legalized baiting for deer and pigs. And we talked about how that was a new law in Alabama, but in fact not even kind of um, it was never made it to vote in the Senate, right, and then it's not a law. Break it down, Ny, And this is you just broke it down. I don't know what else you want me to add. It didn't make it so it's illegal. Debate which I was so weird about, like the supplemental feeding, like I don't really understand that we should maybe looked into that. But so I guess you can still do that. You can feed wildlife, right, which can't bait for the sake of hunting. And so this judge that rode In was saying that they when they wrote this sort of thing to help clarify, they actually muddy the waters in the process by saying, like, oh well, if it's like more than a hundred yards away and you can't see it, then it's not really a bait pile. But he said that he and every other judge that has had to rule on baiting cases, which they do, um that they pretty much say, look, man, if if like, if if at all you can like see where that deer or whatever it is that you're hunting is in that zone of that bait pile, like, we're gonna call it baton. We're gonna call it what it is. If it's on the other side of a ridge from you, we're not gonna call it baton, but a hay biale a hundred yards away, which is what someone wrote to us to say people do is clearly illegal, like not a natural landscape feature. Um so does that? And that brings up a quick question from Mark Kenyon. A guy wrote in to ask this, and it makes me think of it right now. Why is in the in the white tail world, you're a big white tail fella. They call me a white tail guy. H you call me a white tail guy. I guess yeah, you called yourself a white tail freak. I think one time. So so Mark, like if you don't know it, like if you dig, if you dig on white tails and just all things white tails. Marks, Uh. Wired Hunt podcast is what you ought to be listening to because Marco's way beyond and we even get close to when it comes to talking about white tails, which is what you know. It's America's hunting this animal right. But a question that I would like you to take on, Mark at Guy wrote in and say, why is in some circles, why is bait bad? Food plots are not bad? Yeah, that's something you've gotta have been asked a thousands. Yeah, yeah, it's a big thing. People talk. People that don't like bait haters like to pose that question a lot because there's a lot of consciensation people that don't like bait haters, So there's a lot of there's a lot of people that hate on people that use and those guys that do bait. I like to say, well, you're a hypocrite because you plant food plots, so you are changing the landscape or doing something that is attracting deer away from their natural patterns to a new place. So is it? So where do you stand on this? Are you a bait hater not a bait hater? But I'm not a bait user. So I don't like debate, but my dad does. So whatever, more power to you can do whatever you prefer to do. I would rather not, but I do plant food plots because for me, that is um two things. Number One, with a food plot, with a habitat improvement, you're putting in a whole There's a whole lot of work and thought and effort going into that. So it feels like you're, I don't know, going through some threshold of like work put into something that I don't feel like you achieved. The same was dumping a pile of corn. Number two, You're Okay, that's not gonna resonate, that's not gonna that's just just me. I'm not trying to prove your point here. But um, but you're also improving the habitat you're by planning food plot, you're benefiting entire landscape, an entire ecosystem. You're doing something above and beyond just the sole purpose of shooting something. Once playing food plot you're improving the situation for three d sixty five days a year, for so many different animals, for so many different things. You might take one life off that, etcetera. So that might be another argument for the fact that they're different. Um, but if you want to say that you're changing something to bring deer in, and if that's the only thing you're looking at, then yeah, you could say that food plots and baiting on the same You're not hunting, just a natural, completely natural, unaltered pattern. What I thought you were gonna say is that, um, it's a little bit different because the size, well that too well from a disease perspective, if that's another thing you want to talk about, Yeah, I thought you hit me with that. Yeah, that's it. That's a good point. So an issue with baiting that a lot of people talk about is you put something in a very small concentrated area that attracts a lot of deer to that same very small concentrated area, there's a higher chance of disease I only c w D, which is the big thing of course everyone's talking about. So because of that, a lot of states of band baiting to try to reduce the chance of that spread with a food plot. Some people will say, well, it's the same thing with the food plot. You're pulling deer into an area, But it's just it's different. It's it's a much larger space. You're gonna have deer congregate around natural food sources anyways, So there's only so much you can do there. So if it's even if it's a cord raker food plot, that's still resembling a natural feeding environment versus a one yard square section where you might have a pile of corn where all these noses touching all the saliva. Do any states come in? Is there any state that's band or try to regulate food plots? No? Why? Why? What? What's up around? I feel like Montana addressed that, didn't they If you if you plant specifically to harvest animals on it's based on intent, But I don't think you can do that. Really could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can'ts of waterfall, Yeah, definitely, Like you couldn't grow corn, cut corn, and shoot ducks unless you have it agricultural reason to do so. Yeah, we were talking about and then we're talking about this not long ago that like you couldn't grow corn pick it, scatter it on the ground, right, and hunt ducks. But in places you can grow corn and leave it unpicked, but you can't knock it. And it's like you can't knock it down. But it's possible that you could grow it and never harvest it as long as you don't knock it down and weird. Yeah, it's if if it if you planted it solely to attract animals, then I don't think it would be legal in Montana based on but I could be wrong. So that's I said, it's based on the agricultural reason. And so like an agricultural reason could be I'm leaving that stand of corn because corn prices have fallen, or the moisture level, the moisture content within the ear of corn never got down to a harvestable percentage um, So there's reasons for again, Yeah, well screw up, just leave its standing first, spending a bunch of gas to go out there and cut the stuff down when I will when I will have no return on my investment. Now, mark, um, can you define food plot real quick? I guess a general definition would be some type of crop planted with the specific purpose of either attracting an animal to it and or supplementing nutrition. So that could be something like clover or kale or rape or soybeans or corn or when are we anything like that? Are you? Um? Are you sensitive when people bring up the comparison of food plots debate? No, I don't care. I mean, I under I understand the argument. Um, it doesn't hold water from me, but I but even if it did, that's all right. You can you can choose to see it that way. I'll I'll do my thing, you do yours. I got an our white tail, do you thing for it? I got another answer? Brody sketches, sketch this deal out. Uh So, last fall in Pennsylvania, a an archery hunter was he was hunting public land, had a bunch of trail camera setup was pretty familiar with do you already do you already know what we're talking about? Really? Um um um? It sounds like this guy's a pretty dedicated archery hunter, for for just from knowing you know what we've read about it. But he's hunting public land trail cameras. He puts an arrow in a pretty gigantic bug, especially considering it was shot in Pennsylvania, which is like a heavily hunted stage. Yeah, you could call it a big, huge giant on public land in Pennsylvania. It's impressive and and Pennsylvania's seeing more big bucks because they went to antler restriction a while back. But either way, he sticks an arrow in this deer and does not find it. Um it sounds like it may have been a questionable, questionable shot. No one really knows. Either way. He doesn't find the deer, and forty one days goes by and he finds eventually, you know, he kept looking for the buck, finds the buck forty one days later, archery season has ended. He may have found it during rifle season. I think he did. But he puts his tag on a desiccated carcass that have been picked over by predator. Is the only thing that's left as the spy and the skull and the antlers tags, the tags the antlers, and eventually the word gets out. The guy gets the buck measured. Pennsylvania Game and Fish Commission confirms it as the new state record archery kill. What do you think about that? Mark Kenyan? That's cool, really, But there's new state records and states like every year. Now it seems like I can't keep tracking. That's not the question. Are you not getting the question? What's the question? Archery kill? Is it a hunter killed record versus a found forty one days later? There is a place in the record. And I don't know. I'd like to have this guy on the show. You would love to get this guy on the show to talk about this, because he's like a meteorite could have fallen from the sky and that animal forty one days. But then when do you set the where's the lie? I don't know. I don't know. Eight hours? Eight hours? No? I mean if it was up kill, like what killed it? Infection? Coyotes? Right? I mean, I'm an interesting I have a similar situation that happened to me one of the best year I ever shot. It was a poor shot, unfortunately, and then I found it was shot poor shot um. But I thought he's gonna die. So I searched in search and search and search and search, never found him until I came back in February to shed hunt and there he is right in his bedroom where he usually was. So do you act like you found did you find it or get it? So the way I would describe it is that I killed him but I always say I found him in February. So let's say that buck was a big giant record buck. Yeah, would you turn it in as a record buck or would you look at it on your wall and be like, damn, I made a bad shot on that buck. So that I I found that I found. I found his skull and his spine, everything there. Got a salvage teg from the DNR, brought it home, and then a friend of mine had an extra cape. He said, hey, man, that this is a buck that kind of like my Holy Field deal. I had hunted this buck for two or three years, knew him really well, had been chasing this thing forever um and this whole thing happened. My friends like, man, you have so ch like wrapped motion wrapped up in that deer. You should mount him. I want to give you my cape. So I thought about it. I was like, I don't know, But in the end I decided to do it, and I put it on my wall so that every time I walked past that thing, I always think about, never make that mistake again, like never, don't screw up, practice more, compose yourself. Like every little thing I can second guest or thought through that I might have been wrong, did wrong on that evening. Now I rethink that's so it's your it's your totem of self. Flag how's that word? Flag? Flagulation, self flagellation, flagulation, So open yourself. It's a powerful it's a powerful representation of like what was a really painful like moment. It was like a high when I got that shot this day I've been after and then the mistake and then uh so, let's say a dude walks in and he's like, hey, you know what turns out that'd be the that's the new state record. Would you say, well, uh no, I'd say I don't know. I don't I don't know where that line is. I definitely wouldn't try to promote as a state wreck. I wouldn't have like turned it in to try to get as a state record. Now, this happened to my old man too, and it was not I remember it was enough days where he hit a deer out of his tree. It was a nice box, especially for like that that era in Michigan. He shot a deer right below him and no exit wound. Weeks later, my brother Danny's walking out the rifle hunting finds the deer um and it hadn't gone far. It's like it's still it was in the went into a corn field, and we must have walked over a hundred times, walked around it, even to the point where it was so baffling how we could have missed it that we entertained this idea that he had left and then days later came back. But then when you look at the placement of the era, that's just that's doesn't make sense. We just missed him, right, And I don't know he found it weeks later, but he entered it. He entered it in if you went and looked his like commemorative box of Michigan or whatever his name is there with that tuck and all he did he took the head off. It had to go find a cape. I remember the Winner. We're out hunting rabbits. We dropped in to take a look at that buck and there's a whole board in the side of it from creators getting in there. And I looked in there and found a possum. Denned up in there, pulled him out by his tail and took up I still have a picture of me holding that possum up by his tail, so he entered that buck in and not looking at it like when you're a little kid, you don't know you know now looking I'm like, damn, I don't know. Man. You're like, you didn't really get him. You found It's like a thing you found, you didn't get him. It's a really interesting question because you, I guess it depends on the shot, Like if you know that that shot killed that deer, But is is getting him meaning that the killing of that deer in the the the recovering of it in a certain timespan, or is that killing it? And I mean, and then to your question, you don't know when that deer died, if it died the next day, or if it died then and you just missed it, or if it died a week later, but it was because of the wound. I hate I hate this whole conversation because the idea of wounding and deer in this being a long drawn off processes is a horrible thing that's talk about. Yeah, but the thing that happen, so I don't like exactly it doesn't happen. It does happen, So what would do I want to go? Okay, so picture this scenario that that you're the commander of the world, and as commander of the world, it comes to you that you need to say, uh, we're gonna put a time limit on it. Yeah, I would say seven days. Pat here, here's my thought. Can you hear me? All right? Um? So I have a couple of questions just to clarly, he's really going to decide on how he's so if this rood is the resident expert, right, so this particular dear, maybe I missed this, But did that guy that shot that deer, like say, he shot that deer and killed that deer, right, but he doesn't. I don't know how long the season is. Maybe it's too shorter a season for this happened. But this could happen in Montana where if you if you don't recover your dear. It's not illegal to shoot another deer and any states, but it's it's I would consider it unethical. But if that guy shot another deer in that deer's place, so he gets up in the tree stand, he shoots that buck, he doesn't find it. In two days, he goes and find it, right, another buck walks by, arrows that buck punches his tag and puts it on that deer or now I would say that guy can claim it if he like the right thing, goes, I killed that deer, he cuts his tag. He goes, I'm gonna look until I find that deer. You know what I mean. If he was like diligent and goes, I'm gonna look until I find that deer, it's like, all right, he made a bad shot. He reconciled that he cut he that's his deer. He punched his tag on it. Now he looks for it, and it took him six weeks to do it. That really sucks. But he put in the effort. Good on him, he knew he killed it. That's his. But if he's like the next morning, oh, a little spiker walks by and he shoots it, punches his tag on that, and then finds that deer later exact the that's not the lad the former version happened. It was the form revers. I don't know if he hunted anymore. I don't know if he kept I mean, he was out during rifle season when he tagged it. I believe, looking well, who knows. I'd love to have this guy off. I mean, there's so many details he can't clear up. But he you know, in order to register this buck for a record, he had to put a tag on it, and he tagged the skull basically. So yeah, he went above and beyond legal and ethical obligations to find the thing. But if I was commander of the world, it would be like, you gotta find that thing in order to register. You gotta find it in time to use the meat. That would be my cut off. But I tend to agree. But again, let's say you get a hit and you're like, man, not a great hit. I'm gonna let it go overnight. It's gonna get cool tonight. I'm gonna let it go over tonight because I think that it's gonna give me a better chance to find it than if I bump it. And then you go out and Kyle's got so. So there, here's a guy, he's got like a whole plan, he's doing everything right. He goes out beyond his control. Kyleot's got it. I would still say. I would say to that too, I'm like, you got it, Yeah, you got the buckets your It's unfortunate that that happened. You were probably aware that that was a risk. It probably rolled through your mind based on everything you had going for you, um, everything that you were dealing with, uh, your buck. Yeah, I take back my previous declaration as commander of the world. I like Brodie's better everybody. I want everyone to just to just put a time stamp on it. I'm gonna say as commander that I'm talking about God putting a gun to your head and you saying, and he says, you have to tell me a time period forty eight hours. With great reluctance, I would say forty eight hours because I do think that you know with that that meat aspect fits into that in most cases, barring very warm weather, that kind of stuff, various snaf foods. But so maybe I'm just unfamiliar with Pennsylvania rules. Is it because it was a bow? Because hoping, I mean, Boot and Crockett. Half the things in there. Most of the world records are pick up skulls. That's explain what that explain? Record record. Bighorn sheep was found on that island out in Flathead. Everybody knew. I mean that sheep was pretty much high fence sheep. He's on this little island out in the lake and there's a million pictures of it, and then that sheep dies and then the state of Montana has the new world record. Yeah yeah those sheep. Yeah, so now and then now and then a bear of black barrel slim out there. There's a bunch of fruit trees out there, and now and then a black burill swim out there when the fruit trees are in blossom. So imagine they do deal with some level of like stress. But you go out there, yeah, you just can go out there and sort of almost walk up and you know, yeah, so hang out with them. So I guess I was like when I saw that that's the new world record, I'm like, Okay, well, is the Bronx Zoo gonna beat that record next? Could? That's but that's that's the whole thing. Is that hunter killed or is it found? And in Pennsylvania, like a lot of states and and Buona Crockett, they have different categories, right, like hunter killed animals and picked up animals, even sheds, right. So I think the question everyone's got about this buck is was it hunter killed or was it found? So my question, my answer to that would be simple, when he walked out there, did he find it? Yes, he found it? There you go, he would the guy. He would say that he found it during rifles. He didn't recover it. He didn't recover it during rifles. He's he found. You can't. Yeah, you can't recover something months later you find I mean exactly if you were to go missing in the adrad It's uh, I was recovering chopped up cars. Okay, I'm sorry, can you can you can? You hand Phelps your deal? So just the argument of finding it, like we use blood, we use tracks, we use broken twigs. So he didn't recover it, he found it. Like Remy said, there's there's some key ingredients to finding a buck versus recovering a buck. And I would say he definitely found it. But Jason Phelps and the whole thing, you had to put an hour, like you you were forced to put a time limit on it or else you can get you know, killed forty eight hours, but you have to look for it an all daylight hours up until that point, Like there needs to be some effort involved, like when we if you want to make a bad shot, there needs be some effort involved. So for two days, but you better spend those two days looking for it. Martin Bourbon Oh man, I'm gonna back up here, because there's a lot of twists and turns to this thing. So as they say, it starts to make its own gravy, that's exactly so when he was so when he I'm gonna say, when he found this buck, was he actively searching for it or did he stumble upon it? That's why That's why Jason's point. Was he reading that sign, was he you know, going over there in his head like you know, like okay, I think he might have bet it he was. He had shot the thing, he knew it was potentially dead in the area, and I think it was a continual process of hoping he would eventually stumble across those antlers. So he wasn't in his hunter orange during the rifle season. I don't know all the details that you know, but yeah, I mean he was continuing to look for it, um, But it's not It's not as if forty one late days later he was thinking he was hunting that buck. I don't think. Yeah, And to your point, I mean, I mean, odds are right that that buck died as a direct relationship to being hit with that arrow, but also could have been who knows well there's so many there's so many unknowns. Like you said, there's so many unknowns, that's a lot of time. Did somebody else put an arrow in that deer as it watered by his stand and he didn't find it too? You know? I mean, yeah, maybe caught a little e h D in the meantime, I don't know. Yeah, it's it's it's And I'm not trying to take anything away from this guy. Man. I would like, like I said, I would love that. I would love to chat with him because I'm just curious his perspective on it. I'm not like, I'm not like dogging on the guy. What's the WEP just is a really interesting situation. It's yeah, I mean, it's totally interesting topic. Here's another one, motor perplexing one, and again Mark just has this. Sorry, I'm sorry, but it comes down to Mark Kenyon. It's okay because white tails are the most hunted species in North America, for the attention should be on us this. I gotta tell your story. Someone someone walked up to me yesterday and they said, so get this. I was at a bar. This is someone telling you that. Yes, someone's telling me a story. So I'm speaking as the storyteller. The storyteller walks up to me and says, I was at this bar for a b h a pint night, and uh, he saw me wearing this public landowner shirt. The guy walks up to me, and he's confused, who are you being right now? I'm the storyteller. You're you? No, No No, okay, I'll be you. I'm telling a story of a guy telling me a story of a story. So it's confusing, but you you're me, okay. I am the person that I just talked to you yesterday. Hey, Mark, go ahead. I was at a point. I was at a pint night in the up and this guy walked up to me and he was he saw me wearing my public landowner shirt and he says to me, hey, uh, you're wearing that public landowner shirt. It'd be really cool if you could get Mark Kenyan to come up here and talk about that kind of stuff, or if you can't get him, maybe Steve Rinella Man. All right, they got the ranking right. Yeah. It wasn't like when Remy got to be the boss gobbler. I was like, that's the first time that's ever been said. Okay, so all right, this is this is out of your comfort zone. But it's just something I heard from Brody that you just said. Yeah, Brodie, he lay the groundwork again. Brodie, we're talking about last night we talked about this is the most baffling. Okay, the other night, Brodie sends me an article and it's a guy I don't want to talk about who he is. It's a guy griping about all right, it's so complicated. You can order because he's griping about um social media people. Okay, gear ambassador, gear ambassadors, how they ruin everything and they like to take pictures of big, huge, giant trout. And he knows the truth that they catch these big trout when they're spawning. And Brodie, who's a guy catch released trout fisherman, sends it to me annoyed about the perspective on it. And Brody brings up to me, like, why is it that the whole world everything they fish. Everyone's always fishing the spawn. People travel great distances. This fish steelhead when they're in the river spawning. You fish salmon in the river spawning. People plan trips to fish bluegill off the beds. You throw a jig into a bass bed. Everyone fishes spawning fish, but all of a sudden, like trout piarists have gone and said that this whole huge history of people targeting fish when they congregate to spawn is unethical if it's a brown trout. And you agree with that, Oh no, I didn't. I thought that it was an unethical practice, you know the way I was saying supposedly, because I don't know. I'm just I just I'm learning this. So I just taught myself to fly fish over the last few years. I've never really been a big trout fisherm until just recently. I was telling the crowd about this article I and so I was saying, they were saying, this is supposed and I was looking at you, like, right, I don't know. Yeah, I got the impression that came out to me. I was like, I was like, is that the case? I have? No, I have no clue, So reading that like I would, I'm just fishing. I don't know, I don't get it. Call him, please go ahead. Everybody's right and everybody's wrong. Okay, uh yeah, And we have certainly built up this hierarchy of species that's nothing new. But there comes a point where okay, So there's this river around here, it's called the Lost tail Water Fishery below you know, below the dam, and there comes a point where you cannot hardly walk in that river, wade in that river without standing in a red in a spawning bed. At the same time, the you know, the water is eighteen inches deep and you can see every single fish. I do not find it ethical to then go fish for those fish because you can you can drag him foul hook, he can hook him in the back and drag him off that bed or flawesome. Yeah, and then they'll turn around and go right back to that bed and sit on it. So what's the problem. The problem is, it's I mean, it does not fishing. Okay, So when when a little kid, if there's a down not catching. When the look kid goes down to his mom's dock and there's a dozen bluegill beds in knee eat water, and not only will they feed, but they'll aggressively guard their nest, and he lobs a worm into that collection of bluegill beds? Is he is he being unethical? Let me come on, so I have a question. Yeah, I mean, and this is the nature of this discussion, right, it's like, first of all, the stuff that you Flatlanders do, I mean, who really cares? Right, right? So like the crappie of the bluegill, the bass. For some reason, we have us as a rocky Mountain West society have decided that that stuff just doesn't matter as much as our trout do. Um, and maybe that has something to do with like recovering populations. But you can talking about non native like rainbows and browns, like, first of all, they're not disappearing anytime soon, and they don't technically belong in any of these synthetics. The synthetics purely synthetic fish. Uh yeah, but so look at the freaking pike minnow right. The squaw fish, those I will not mess with on the bed, completely native fish. There's a bounty on their heads below the Baudeville Damnado. They're endangered. You can't like like you know, so it's all I did not know that. Yeah, they're in Colorado. People got chucking them on the bank wrote this article that gout that we kind of all apparently read or got forwarded around. Was referring to Brown's. Yes, that was import This is where it makes more gravy like Steve says, well, how it read to me was as much as much as this guy was concerned with the ethics of ripped and spawners off of a bed, he was more concerned with dudes from out of state coming in and screwing up the fishery that he guides on. So it was like, well, I could have been out on that spawning bed making money, right. You know. The other the thing that I took away from it though, was just the fact I thought the point he was making was how people are putting ethics or their crossing lines to try to get famous, Like Instagram frightness. He was talking about how more and more people are doing these huge photo shoots with every big fish because they want that huge photo and they want to be on the cover of whatever they want to free pair of sunglasses or something. So you see people staying around for two minutes holding the fish out of water, or you see people in this case, he said that they were going down a closed Stretcher river. They knew it was closed, but they still went down and they had to pass signs that said I was closed. I don't remember why I was closed or anything. That's a different story that's called poaching, so that he was making that argument. I thought that people were doing things like that to get famous. The one particular fishing question was caught. I mean, this guy did all kinds of illegal stuff, but there's like a greater picture of this, generally fishing for spawning trout being like something you should go to health. See. I thought that he was using that as the story to illustrate the larger Yeah, well it's okay, one of the most masterful writer in the world. So I feel that he he's got a few axes to grind. He's kind of in a grumpy mood. He doesn't like maybe he's the I'm sure there's he's gonna hate this. It's probably like a fair bit of jealousy involved a little bitterness, Okay, And you put all these ingredients together and you get kind of a rant. And just as he's taking talking about the influence of social media on fishing in an example of that would be that that you would be so audacious as to catch a spawning trout to up your social media presence. Okay, as much as he's taking that little iceolate example to prove a larger point, I'm doing the same thing. He did when I'm plucking out. One portion of this is to say, like to declare that you targeting a particular species of imported European fish um during its spawn as being unethical. How how does that relate to all of the fish that we all sort of agree you do fish during the spawn and has the gentleman that wrote that article, I'm presumably if he's a fishing guide in whelming, he's a pretty seasoned angler. Presumably he's been up to Alaska or BC and fish to king in the river. There's there to lay his eggs her eggs. Yes, the difference is, let's say you have this catch and release fishery cat you then the fish come up and spawn, they're on their beds, they get through the spawning process, but then they're guarding their beds um and they're not eating, but they're doing that aggressive behavior of knocking other fish off the beds or and um. You know, and you're fishing eggs. Sometimes they're trying to knock eggs off their bed other other fish's eggs off their beds and um. There is a time of year where there's eight of us in this room. We could walk up that river and all eight of us could catch that exact same fish somehow, some way, because it's gonna go back to that bed and it's gonna sit on that bed and it's gonna do his job. And you know, we could stress it out to the point very easily where it's gonna die. So why would that be allowed in this catching release fishery where the point is to try to release them and let them get caught again. But if you're out there fishing, presumably not for those spawners. It's legal to be out there fishing, and you're out fishing, not targeting those particular spawners, and you're pointing at the dude who is But you're out there fishing and you're catching pre spawned fish and you scoop up a female that hasn't spawned yet and she spews a bunch of eggs out in the net. Who, Like, where do you draw the line? Like, if you don't think you should be fishing for spawning fish, then advocate for closing it all together, right, Like, nobody should be out there in that case. It doesn't matter if you catch them ten days before they spawn or when they're on their bed. I don't I don't think that's wrong. Yeah, I mean I think you are. You're correct? Um, yeah, why we do not do that? I do not know you. I don't know how. We used to target the spring bullheads. You know, bullheads like to spawn like spawning cavities, so busted up sea walls hollow logs, and then they didn't get inside and they turn around so their heads looking out to defend the nest. We wouldn't even use a rod. You just go around and dingle, wrap some line around your hand and dingle a little cleo against his face and have him grab it. To the point we sometimes dive down snorkeling mass dive down and in dingle it in front of me. So that's like right now I'm looking at being like, man, that was so unethical, But I just don't just not feeling it. Yeah, I'm not feeling the guilt. I think if you're gonna try to eat the thing, fine, but if not, like I feel like there's should It goes back to like that there's a reasonable act, reasonable chance of failure when you eliminate all those chances of failure by being like, okay, big fish, ten inches of water, I can throw a rock in there. It's gonna run away, but it's gonna come right back to that the exact same spot. I can catch this fish, Like one point, is it still fish? But maybe for the guy who only gets to fish a few days a year and he's got to get a lot of social media, like you gotta make it happen here. I gotta jump in here because I grew up like cal did fishing pitching pitchfork and spawn and browns, I mean, trout fishing. You know, bass fishing wasn't a thing. And maybe it's just regional because you just if I was in a lake, right and there's a stream coming into that lake, you'll see a hundred fishermen away from that. No one will be going and fishing those those fish off their beds. It's like it's like, why don't you just go So if a fish swims up stream, whyn't you just go pick it up and then like go take a picture with it? Like is that fishing? Yeah? I mean it's it's too easy. It takes out. You might as well just go like buy your fish or go like put them in a swimming pool, because those trout aren't Like I don't know, but when I first started bass fishing, I would never cast at a fish that was on its bed. Ever, I didn't know that. I was like, oh, you just don't do that. We'd go get leeches and lay them on the beds. Yeah, I mean now I do that because I understand that that's how you fish bass. But I'm like, bass fishermen must just like have they just don't care enough for whatever it's different. They're so sturdy. Yeah, you like, trout are very fragile. It's like my parents or I grew up this small kind of man made private lake and we stopped and you could just see that trout die fast. It's very hard for trout to exist. And especially when you're talking in Montana, you're talking cutthroats or native fish. If you see that fish on the bed, you need those fish to have their a fighting chance. Now, fishing other places like pre spawn, most of the fish that are on the bed, they're waiting for those eggs that are laid a lot of those eggs have been fertilized, so though they already have that fertilization, they're already ready to hatch. There that further step from the fish that's just out in a deep swimming around. They constantly produce eggs. So for the fish that gets in the net, spews its eggs and you let it back go, she's gonna have just so many eggs tomorrow. Yeah, that's my with have you have you guys have red shadows on the koy cock by the anthropologist Richard Kane Nelson. No, but I will say, salmon, they're going to die, so you can just scoop them out of the river. I don't care that. That's another part of this. It's another part of this. I'm gonna throw it. I feel like I've been living in a gray area with a million different caveats. Yeah, I love to fish for trout. I'm gonna throw. I'm gonna throw another twist in there that we're talking about last night. So where we live in Wisconsin, we have the ribs that dumping in Lake Michigan, which to my knowledge, by and large, the steel head that returned to those rivers do not successfully spawn. And yet from an ethic standpoint, many people say, I won't fish those I won't fish to those fish that are on their reds, even though it's an artificially supported fishery. Artificially supported fishery and those fish aren't gonna successfully spawn. You've got those kind of artificial fisheries all over the Great Lakes where it's like, yeah, man, we're pound these salmon and steelhead while they spawn, and then the state stocks a little six inch molts and it starts all over again. You know, So what do you think of that? I mean, I just think it's interest. I think it's interesting. I mean I'm not really seeing a from a from a resource standpoint, like yeah, I mean, I guess you could harassed that fish enough for two Remy's point. You know, if you caught it and stressed it out to a point that it maybe it wouldn't return to the lake, then you're you know, you're down the fish, right. But I mean there's like, you know, oftentimes they'll be you know, three or four six fish waiting in the bucket right behind those spawners that guys are fishing too, and you know, ten minutes later that fish could be pushing up on a red you know, right near in that same spot. So I just I don't know, I just feel like it's a super gray area. And then to your point, like so all of a sudden, you're a kid, well of course I'll let a kid do that. Well, I mean, just like every little thing changes it, you know, I've seen it, like it gets so bad in some places. We would go up and fish the North Platte River in April when the rainbows are spawning hard, and uh that the local guides there would like if they saw you fishing two spawners, they're just like scream at you. But then those same guys there'd be like a hundred yards stretch of beds, and those same guys will float over top of those fish in their drift boat to knock them down into the next hole, and then they'll get out and fish for Why here, here's a kind of here's why I um. I want to get back to Richard Knelson real quick in a minute, but here's why I brood over the subject because, um, the foundations. Okay, the foundation of fishing is it was a food acquisition activity, right, everyone accepts that, right. So it's like it comes out of a it comes out of an interplay of life and death. And to watch a segment, to watch a segment of fishing becomes so civilized and so sort of mechanical, where you're um fetishizing introduced non natives. You're establishing this whole other structure of it's like wrong to utilize these resources in a certain way. It's it's no longer like the goal of like with hunting and fishing, the goals used to be that you would study an animal, you would study it and find its vulnerabilities and exploit those vulnerabilities to some extent. And timing issues, like people like to hunt bucks during the rut because they don't act like they do normally. They lose some of their inhibitions, they travel more during the daytime, they're more vulnerable, and that's like a whole culture is built around exploiting this vulnerability. But all of a sudden, to all of stodd get to the spot where where like the segment of the fishing world becomes so divorced from the foundational reality of what it is that it that it sets up this whole other bizarre structure. I don't think it's wrong. I just look at it and I brood over it. It's puzzling to me. Uh. In Shadows on the Coya Kard, which is about the coy Kon people, um Richard K. Nelson spent some time with them, and they like to their den dig forbears. So their bear hunting method is you kind of get a sense it's handed down generation generation, all the bear denning locations, and knowing that a den doesn't usually get used twice in a row, you kind of like keep a track of what den might have a bear and you go around the late spring and that's how you hunt. You dig bears out. It's unethical to just shoot a bear walking around. Any person can do that. It takes a special man to go in and drag a bear up out of its den and kill it right an So if you went ask most people, if you if I went out to my buddies that I hunt with, I was like, oh yeah, what I do you know, I go down, I just kill him right in the den. Right, You'd be skewered as the epitome of unethical behavior. So it is, it's just like in certain cases it's so arbitrary and there's so much baggage at play, absolutely, and I'm just thinking here, like how hypocritical I am? Right because I will not fish to that fish that I can see that I know is not going to move, because like I'm just like, well, it's a foregone conclusion. But when the water is all murky and muddy, and I've been telling you for years how much I've been enjoying fishing for these smallmouth bass. Well, the reason they're so susceptible to flies a flyer rod is because they've moved up into their spawning area. But the difference is is, you know, I'm fishing in eight feet water that's murky, and I can't see them, and so for some reason, that's the mental difference for me is the you know, my percentage of being successful is in this you know, reasonable area for me of you know, it's still a game of chance and still feels sporting. Everyone has that though. I mean, Steve, if you like could have anything in your tackle box, would dynamite be your number one choice? And you'd be like, every time I go fishing, I just throw a stick of jelly in there and blow them out of the water. You wouldn't do that, you know. It's because it's guaranteed. It's like fishing for a trout on its bed is so guaranteed that it's not even sporting. It's like your sportsman because you do it in a certain way, whether it's legal or not. You've got. Everybody has their own code of ethics, and it's like, Okay, what might be acceptable to one person isn't acceptable to another. But also what what's the intent behind it? If your intent was I just want to picture a big fish like dynamite, throw it in there, pull your big fish up, take a picture. You're like, ah, whatever, man, I see what you're saying. To kill that fish. But oh we swam away. He's just in shock. He'll be all right. If I thought the question was that easy, I wouldn't have brought it up. Yeah, it's it's one of the I don't even really know how I feel about it. That's a good point. It's a perfect topic for this time of here. I mean, I really gotta call on I think on Monday from a guy buddy of mine in Montana. He's like, yeah, man, when you're coming up land a giant, we're gonna go out there. He's like, I feel kind of bad fishing them on their heads, but everybody else is really Yeah, there's the conversation you just had just had. Yeah, I mean it's that time of here. When I live in the Great Lakes, we'd fish steel heads starting Thanksgiving. Sometimes depending on the water levels, because so a lot of times you still had to shoot up the rivers when the when the rain the fall rains came and still had to push up. But the whole time, the whole time, it was all just prelude. It was all prelude to the spawn mm hmm. And sitting down there at dawn and it starts to get light enough, you can start to see the reds, the cleaning, you know, the spawning beds. You can start to see that golden clean area, and all of a sudden, that gray shadow pulls across that. The feeling of like, dude, yes, yes, yes, yes, it is odd, right, the feeling you'd get no one's there, you got the spot and you see that, just that little shadow come out on there and move away. Oh my god, to have someone come and tell me that I was wrong. I'm not open to it. Uh Okay, moving on real quick, Um, everybody's cool on that. Uh Mark again, Mark Kenyon, quick thing. I'm glad to have you here. Your famous deer, your famous Holy Field deer isn't dead. He's not dead. Okay, So if you listen to wire to hunt, um, you'll if you go back in the back lock. You hear the marks got this whole story of Jason's deer around the same deer he sees. He's like basically roommates with him, and but the mysterious deer and and and he's had opportunities in the past to get him and didn't get him. Then he thought he was dead. And then what you just found his shed and he's not dead. Yeah. Well, yeah, last time I was doing a podcast with you guys, I was talking about how had my missed opportunity at him and everything, And then like a month later, I think I was talking to you about Yeah, I heard from a friend of a friend that the neighbor shot a big one. This was the only like quote unquote big buck that I'd seen in the area for like three years, so it had to be that dear. So I thought, oh, yeah, he's dead. He disappeared off trail camera. I didn't see him in times a year. You just see him after that. So yeah, I kind of moved on and then randomly mourned his loss. I don't know have more his loss, but I came to terms of the fact that this part of my of my life was done. And and yeah, like late February, I think it was. I just was like, I need to go get some fresh air, take the dog for a walk. So I went out to this property just thought. I walked just kind of the outside little edge is just a nice little spot and snow on the ground. Wasn't looking for shed antlers or anything, and just stumbled onto some that was a nice little stand up pines, and I just saw these this crown of time sticking out of the snow. Pull it up and lo and behold, he's still around. Never was a little bit. It was exciting, it's awesome. It was a little bit and uh it was a little bit bitter sweet because a tiny bit of me was relieved when i'd like come to terms with him being gone, because all right, I can move on like I wanted. I'm gonna go hunt some different places. I'm gona do some different stuff, and I find like, oh ship, I'm back to this again. So now your whole next year's all playing out. You gotta try to find this book. Well, you know what I'm telling myself now is that I'm not gonna do what I did last year. I'm not going to like change all my I'm not gonna put all my eggs in that basket. I would love to finish this four year journey. Now. I love to kill this deer um, but I'm not gonna let it like consume my life. It's not gonna be the end all be all. I'm gonna do a lot of different things. Yeah, I'm gonna hut smart. Yeah, I'm still gonna try to target that deer and see what happens. But like you said some number months ago, maybe the way it's supposed to end is that I never do. And the story and he rides off from the sunset. It was a movie. It fills a movie, and you shot at people be bummed at the end of the movie. People, I told you it should be like the movie The Golden Seal. Did I tell you this. We're in the end. Then he got mad a chance and he comes out. You guys lock eyes, and you can't do it. You just drop your gun or drop your bow and start to weep. And the buck and it starts foggy and it's snowing in the buck like looks at you and you guys, and he walks off. That's a movie. But in the end, the buck walks up and you kill him. Dude. No, it's gonna like that movie. People like conclusions, they like things tied up in a nice bow. It needs to be like the end of The Deer Hunter. Yeah yeah, And then you got mad because I hadn't seen it. Have you seen you? You haven't seen the Deer h haven't seen the Deer but I saw pop up somewhere like I should watch that. You haven't seen the Deer Hunt? In my bad on that one? Please anyone right here? Yeah, Lestern, Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah, you've seen it. They're hunting it's red stags. Yeah, there's so much about that movie. It's a it's a war movie, right, it's about get the right one. So it's it's it's some guys from Pennsylvania, colk and in that Steel country, the Highlands, Scottish stags across in the in the mid It's a real problem in movies when you get to know them too much about wild life, movies really start to let you down. The worst movie is The Reverend Velvet Bulls running across the River and wanted burn. Dude. It was like that, uh, The Deer Hunter where it winds up it's like we're in Pennsylvania Steel Country. But all of a sudden, it's a Stag's terrible even at night. They show up in the morning. Last Mohicans, it's a red deer. Yeah, they just get you every time. Man. I thought about just offering my services to movies. Yeah, just be a consultant anything that has to do with hunting. It would be a great jobs, you know, just just for I'll do it for free, just from my own viewing bremy. I'll tell you right now that I have done some of that, and they do not care. Don't listen, they do not care. Early on in my TV career, they're like, yeah, I get it, but we're not making reality. We're not marking in this Two Hunters. Early on in my TV career, I was trying to explain to a producer about the whole problem of not knowing what's going to happen next, and at one point he grew frustrated and he said, well, that's what animal wranglers are for. So I'm gonna throw up my defense for not seeing that movie though, because I do recall now thinking about it back in the day when video stores were like a big thing, you know, and going to get a video with your curtain in the back corner. That's a different story, begging like I passed that one and be on the shelf, and then like, that's the one I want to see The Deer Hunter. I know I'm gonna love that movie, just you know, going off the time. And then my parents would be like, I don't think that's a movie for you, and and and then I just I never I never caught back up with it. I never I never revealed that that secret. But yeah, it's stunning. I mean, it's what it's a masterpiece. And then check it out. Guys, guys from the you know, it's guys from Pennsylvania. Um. They go off to fight in Vietnam. It's Christopher Walking, Robert de Niro. One of them goes into the Green Bray's. They meet up in a then the whole Russian Roulette. It's just like it's horrible. It is horrible, but there's some there's a reckoning, like what Mark will eventually have with holy Field. There's a reckoning in the end where the deer Hunter finds his deer and cannot do it. Oh unrelated note, Mark, what's uh, what's wrong with you? Guys? Like at vortex. I got a whole big, brand new building. Yeah yeah, I mean that's that's the biggest sale. I mean, that's been definitely a long, a long process us and yeah, kudos everybody that that worked on that project. So yeah, we recently got moved in, got settled. So now it's not Middleton, Wisconsin, not Middleton, YEP. So we're we're we're close, fairly close, I mean not too far away. Um in an adjacent community called Barneveld, and it's that's a really cool town. Smaller town, a little bit, a little bit more rural, so not as many sandwich options, not as many sandwichs options. But it's good man, I think I think it's actually it's but it's forcing me to eat healthier because you know, you bring a good lunch every day. So so when we're hanging out there though, and we went to where you guys were manufacturing the what's the line of sculpes you manufacture that you were manufacturing that when we went to look so right now it's the razor, the razor h d A, MG, what happened all that stuff? That stuff moves, Yeah, moved, which is a big process in and of itself, just you know, I mean, I mean you hire a company to like take that on, and I mean that's what they specialize in, is is moving equipment like that. And I wasn't super close to that process, but I know, I know it was a process. Did they give you a humorous office? Corner office? I probably have the sweetest cube in the world. You got a cubicle? Yeah? Did you look out your window recently? Tell me you saw some birds or is that someone different? Does you? I mean the so yeah, I'm on I'm on the second floor and actually the whole building. I mean, when you guys can buy, I mean you'll see it. I mean it really is, uh you know, an engineering masterpiece. But uh um, yeah, I mean good windows, good light. Yeah, we we we look out on on on the I guess the front of the building or where you would enter the building, um backs up to nature Conservancy. So yeah, you got Do you feel it to be unethical if you shot one of those turkeys out of your second story office building? I do, out of the second story office building. Yeah, I'm probably probably not gonna take that shot. But I've been thinking about that though lately, because I mean we've been seeing them there you know, they're they've got some regulars that come by and you get to know him. Not to get to know him, but I mean you see him regularly, and I'm like, man, you know, like I just don't think. And again it goes into those like ethics, not ethics, but just like those gray areas of if I was just to be turkey hunting in general and I came upon a turkey, i'd probably shoot that turkey. I don't know, because that that's the thing I have to say. This is like grade school. There's so many people in here. It's like you can be talking over thirteen people know what's going on. Okay, this is what I don't get though. Your thing with the trout on their spawning beds. Why can't you shoot a turkey in a tree? Because it's wrong? And I would. That's how if it's legal, I would shoot every turkey different. Here's your turkey hunt. Forget the calls. You sneak up to the bottom of the tree in the dark. As soon as shooting our starts. You have a little deeper on your watching, Paul, And when that turkey some double As a young man. As a young man, I attempted something like that it did not work. My questions is, are those turkeys spotting? Why can't you shoot a turkey? Is different? Turkey's are majestic, noble. No. Here, this is where the whole thing falls apart. Here's what the whole thing falls apart, because I do believe that there is a right and a wrong way to get a turkey. See, I just can't go. I just cannot. I will never in my life be talked into that. I used to be a bushwhacker. I used to bushwhack him, and now, um now I'm like, Saul is it, Paul's who is it? Who's who's up on their Bible learning? Who got who gets blinded? On the way? Who the damask is? Saul or Paul? If not one of you guys knows this gets blind I don't know. Yeah. So I had my Damascus moment um where I stopped bushwhacking turkeys. See everyone that goes turkey hunting so hard, I'm like, can the shotgun? I'll show you how hard it is. Listen, Yeah, you feel a different grade turkeys one decoin ducks, right, Yeah, but I like the jump ducks, but it's not as cool as decoy them. It's just when there's so much more stuff and so much more effort to decoin, but you would never shoot a duck on the water. He's like, not true. I have been in situations where and there's a very good argument you made for it. Where I've been with people who said, listen, uh, I put a lot of time and effort into selecting my spot and camouflaging myself and putting out my decoys and calling. And I'm hunting a high pressure area. Right if I can do everything so right and trick the birds so much, I was supposed to be like, oh, I only kind of tricked them where he passed over and I shot him. But I went through all the work to fully trick him to the point where he handed in my spread. And it's like, oh, you're too good. You tricked him too much. You've now forfeited your right to shoot the duck. But so some guys will be like, I'm gonna now jump it up, right. So now you're like, if you put yourself in the ducks position, okay, where I say to you, brody, I'm gonna kill you now. I could just shoot you in the head right now. I'm gonna shoot you in the leg and then run around and chase you and beat you over the hell of a gun? What are you gonna pick? I'll take the quick one. But that's a shooting him on the water. I think it's less effective. You can't break their way exactly. They dive. It's it's almost more you jump them up, so you know you'll kill him because because then he's yeah yeah, now, yeah, I've seen some you know, not that I was. I don't want to say I was on the trigger, but I have seen I have seen some on the water gimmes where everybody's kind of like, how in the world did that not work? Right? They almost have to aim below him. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I'm gonna get back to mark from it though, Um what layout for? Like what's going on with new products and whatnot with you guys? So yeah, man, um really talking about getting a little job about turkeys? Is there anything I should be getting excited about? Man, we got some new buyos that are super sweet that'd be good for turkey hunt. Like how does it fit? Like, what is what you got coming out? How does it fit in? I mean their new So we just like like three weeks ago we released our new I guess our new generation of the Viper HD buyos um. So if anybody's familiar with like the original Viper HD series, this is kind of a next evolution of those. And I mean, I guess for me, how works in the Turkey hunting is you should always have a set of binoculars whatever you're hunting. I had to get you know what the already my body Tommy Yets and it was like, do you bring binoculars turkey hunting? I'm like absolutely, yeah, I've been like the look at stuffing binoculars everything hunting, I'd be annoyed. I mean, and I have forgot my binoculars before, you know, getting out of the house early in the morning, and you it's like forgetting your cell phone. It's like, you're it's the cell phone of hunting equipment, even though I guess cell phones are kind of part for hunt equipment. Now, you know what I'm saying. You always check in your pocket, Yeah, I bring them with Yeah, you have it, yeah, use it, keep it, keep all the time. So they're that, I mean, that's uh, optically there step up form factors awesome. They're a little bit more compact, so what are they like when it when it comes to are they more they're they're less money than the Razors. Yeah, so they'd be kind of like a tier tier below the Razor. But I mean they're they're solid, biny, they're good. So I'd say that that's the binal that I would suggest even before and now, like a person who has a need for kind of who uses their optics in a manner where they kind of have that need for top tier optical performance but maybe don't have the budget to take on, you know, a top tier binal like the Razor HD. You know you can fall back into that Viper HD and you're still getting a very very good optic for your dollar. Ya. How do you guys when you're picture and all that man um Like what the do do do people call up in Uh? Do people call up and like express bafflement about what how stuff like why bnoculars and stuff are so expensive? Or they just kind of like people just accept now that it's like a thing that costs money. It was difficult, Like I always talk about one of our guy books, I wrote about guys that roll up in fifty pickups with Tony Tony Doll bronoculars. I'm like, you got it all wrong, bro, you know, I mean I think that still happens, you know, And I think, and we've talked about this before, but I mean, I think it takes somebody having having that optics epiphany, you know, when they when they really see what it's about, you know, and maybe they use their buddies, you know, really good buyos or something like that, and then you know they're like, oh man, I need to get a set of that. I can tell you my epiphany. Do you know what my epiphany? I think we talked about it before, but yeah, well was it. We're hunting on the uh years ago the first time everyone out there were hunt on the north slope of the Brooks Range, and there's a grizzly coming up the other side of the river from our camp and I'm looking that a thing my binals and that looked at my buddies, binys, and he had just he had to spend a season pack and moose on Alaska Peninsula. And the guy gave us that of souped up binos, and well, I'm looking at which just like this amorphous brown blob walking up the other riverbank and I looked through his and I can see that that there's like the winds blowing and it's forming these little cowlcks and the bear's hair. And I'm watching this like cowlic kind of move around on its rump with the breeze blowing on it, and I'm like, I can tell you what I'm gonna be saving up some money for. It's like actual binals. Yeah, yeah, I mean, and and since then now, I'm just like, I'm just addicted to looking through them. Well, And I think that you when you get used to having something like that in the woods, like if you haven't been using binos, if you haven't been carrying them, which I think i'd say, by and large, like a lot of people do now, right, but I think maybe it's less common, know even you know, fift twenty years ago whatever, um, throwing a very non concrete timeline on that. But um, once you do, I think you realize like what you've been missing, and you just yeah, you can't get enough. And then you you realize how important they are and what you can do with them, like you can look at stuff, you know, and whether your tree stand hunting and Wisconsin or you know, Cuisier hunting in Arizona, man, I mean, that's it's an important piece to have, for sure. You hang out with bubbly dog dering. I was hunting with Doug one time and we walked up in what he calls the big woods, up by the wet spot, which are the two great names for bars um. And we get by the wet spot and I just like, take my binos and scan through the big woods and glass up the tippy tippy top of a turkey fan. Never in a million years would we would have walked in and spooked, glassed up that tippy top of a turkey fan, and we sat down and killed that bird maybe an hour later. Never would have never would have found that turkey. No. I mean, yeah, you wouldn't have killed that bird without those binos. No. I was kind of like when I saw I was like shocked by what I was looking at. I think it's like a super important thing. And I mean that's I mean, that's just you know a good example of one tactic, right. You know, when you're creeping into that field, you know, stay back glass it, you know, before you expose yourself and blow the whole thing out, you know, and you guys obviously saw something, got an opportunity and capitalized on itself. I got sorry the north thing like speaking of I'm talking about that there should be a bar called the wet Spot, which we discussed before. A guy rode in to say, like, if there was a bar called the bearded hen, would you go into it? And he also was wanted and this is a good question. Would most states you could kill? Like most states, a legal bird is a bearded bird one and one hands is bearded roughly. I think it's like it depends on areas and whatnot. Um, would you shoot a bearded him? Ask me that question, would bearded him? I've got one mounted on my wall. Shot a beard, shot a beard end and you knew you were shooting a beard at head. That's a good question. It was fall. It's just like beard boom, exact same minus the mountain. You shot a beard at ye? Really yell now that these guys have broke the ice and I know it's the same thing. But yeah, I rolled a bearded in in the spring in the spring, but I called this bird in and you know, and it's kind of you know, doing this turkey stuff, and a little beard poked out I'm like, oh cool. So you're like it's a female, but it's got a beard, so it's legal, you know. I mean at the time, it was happening pretty quick, but I saw that beard let it rip, and I don't know, I can't say that I necessarily. I mean in the fall, I think it's a little bit different because there, you know what I mean. But yeah, I mean that's that's what happened. See, I think it's wrong. Identified I want to clarify I have never shot a turkey out of a roost, but I also don't think it's wrong, just in case I'm backling, But I have no quantu You can kill a turkey with attack hammer in your backyard. It's a barn animal. Man. No rules the turkeys. I generally fall under our states whatever the state defines as the regulations. Yeah, you know what Eldo Leopold said about that no ethics is doing the right thing is watching, even when doing the wrong thing is legal. My god, I'm not saying it's wrong wrong. It's not wrong wrong. But if I was hunting, and I I was hunting spring out spring turkeys, and I and I and a hand came in with a beard on it. I would not be able to This is coming from the man who would who would pitch for it? Browns out of a train. I would not be able to harm that female turkey. I don't believe. Last day of long hunt and there's a bearded hen, I don't know what. Would you go into a bar named the Bearded Hen with a level of uncertainty? Would you bring your wife into a bar called the Bearded Hen? Absolutely not. That's the only way I would go in. Um, all right, Uh, We've got a lot of concluding thoughts, lots of concluding thoughts to go through. Um, we'll start with Brodie. Oh man, I'm just excited Turkey Seasons. I'm not there for the opener, but Colorado opened today, so I'm stoked to get back and go chase some turkeys and shoot him out of trees with a nail gun. What's what is your what is your actual like turkey hunt plan? Well, I got two tags that drew a tag and I gotten over the counter text. So I'll hunt the draw tag first and then let all the guys clear out of the over the counter areas, and then after get after a couple of weeks later, Yeah, My brother got both his turkeys today just watching said, yeah, he just did a trip and got two turkeys, so he doesn't like stretching the hunt out. No, you know, in some places you can't do that on the on the same day. You know what I saw the other day in Arkansas, You're not allowed to shoot Jake's spring season. That's immoral to make hands. He can't shoot a Jake. Well, you know, we're going to Missouri tomorrow and I've been trying to weigh out in my head. I'm you know, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna hold out for long beard. But at what point do I, as my brother says, put the Jake breaks on one. Well, that's what's nice about having two tags. You can, you know, you can focus on the big bull and take a Jacob. They banned shooting Jake's in the spring. I just stumble across it, you know, looking at that, like on Arkansas website and they posted their legs and no Jake's for you listeners, that Jake is a it would be a one year old turkey, and he doesn't have spurs. He's just got little round nubs and his beard is like an inch or too long, and I'd have a few more unpunched turkey tags. If it was illegal to kill Jake's I would never shoot a Jake. That's where I draw the line and the roofs with his nail gun. And he's like, yeah, I only go see, I only go so low. Here a beard, a bearded hand, that's one thing that's just weird. But Jake, you know, he doesn't even have a chance to breed yet. No, they don't monsters, his fan his fans not totally tricked out, can't do a real rip and gobble. Uh was that that's your concluder? Yeah, Mark Kenyon been in the hot seat. Yeah, uh, you know, this is my first b h A rendevo had been at. We haven't really talked about like where we're at here and what's going on. But I think my concluding thought was just what an awesome group of people that's here at this event. I mean, the energy has been really impressive. The relative youth has been surprising and impressing. That's maybe not surprising, but I think compared to other events you go to within the hunting and fishing world, it's it doesn't look like this. Um So that was encouraging to see and um stoked about. It's just you get a lot of excitement and group like this for the future of what we're doing here in the hunting and fishing and conservation world, and the future is bright when you look at this group. Yeah, it's kind of stunning to see pictures of the group and the age demographic defies the norm. I remember not too long ago i read that um in Michigan the average age of a person who buys a trapping license goes up exactly one every year, which is old tad still at it. It was harrowing. Can we talk about how you're off the market? Oh yeah, all those ladies locks. I don't know if I could wooly mammoth ivory, yeah, it's not legal wooly mammoth ivory. Yeah? Is there? I don't know, is there now? There's like a big thing they want to band mammoth ivory because it's becoming like replacing elephant ivery. Apparently, you know, a lot of it depends on where it was found private land, public land. It's found in private land. It's like, yeah, because yeah, there's a lot of you know what, Brody were you just sent me that article, I think you did you know? Uh, if familiar with the Lacey I guess the Lacey Act. So for a listener who isn't, you're excused if you don't know the Lacy Act. The Lacy Act is one of the things that allow just too. You know, back in the early the Lacy Act is one of the things that allowed us to start putting an end to market hunting, which was decimating wildlife populations. Is it makes it a federal offense to move like illegally obtained wildlife across state lines. So if states states might have um lacks rules governing wildlife, but the Lacy Act allows you to make federal crimes out of moving things around. And someone will just show me an article where this is kind of perplexing. They're using the Lazy Act to go after people smuggling dinosaur bones. So here you're taking an animal from sixty five million years ago who has a fossilized bone and using a contemporary wildlife trafficking law to too. It's a novel approach, man, how well it will hold up in court? It's not recognized as wildlife. When I called albert a first fishing game, when I found that buffalo skull there only a couple of hundred years old. He said, great buffalo is not a recognized game species. Okay, yeah, whatever you want, you find some mineralized like when you find a dinosaur fossil, that's right. It's just a weird deal, man, it's a weird deal. But what they're looking for there is where it was applicable is there's a lot of people, like right now, everybody goes to Mongolia for dinosaur fossils. It's like the New it would be like you know, it'd be like New Mexico in the nineteen thirties, right, It's just like it's not picked over yet. People used to see it in disregard it the same way you know, people used to not pick up Indian arrowheads. And all of a sudden, you get enough time and separating the two events and it starts to become something noteworthy. So there's people like looting all these and there's not much enforcement in Mongolia. So there's people looting all these dinosaurs fossils out of Mongolian bringing them into the US, and they're using the Lacey Act to go after people with it, which I thought was an interesting approach. Uh, but aremy your concluder. You're married. I feel different. Yeah, it feels good. I think it should feel different a little bit. You know. I like it. I'm excited about it. It's a great wedding, and uh, it was a lot of fun also. Uh. One of my final thoughts. Everyone will think that I hate on Turkey's mostly it's just for fun, because that's funny. It's funny. It's funny. It's like one of those things. It's like I can pick the turkey guy that's a fanatic about turkey and just go after him only because I think I've got that turkey hunter distaste from guiding him Montanas or guiding elk hunter so much, and these guys coming and going, oh yeah olk cutting, No, I've I've got it. It's just like turkey hunting. I'm like, nah' sorry, I've been turkey hunting. It's nothing like they make similarities. No, sheep hunting. It's a lot like turkey hunting. I think what I think of turkey hunting is being like a little mini elk hunt because it's like it does have this right that there's a male and he has this audacious noise he makes and then there's a female and she has sort of a more a more tempered kind of calm version that she makes, and you're using the one to bring in the other, and you sit up on a high spot and you're praying to hear a goble, just like you're praying to hear a bugle. If I was yeah, it's like saying elk hunting is a lot like well, then turkey hunting is all like pigeon hunting. You're like, yeah, I would never say it, right, I think Yanni does say it. Yeah, so yeah, but I see where they're coming from. I get it, But it's also, in my mind, two completely different things. And if anybody that has said that to me while I've been guiding them learned within a few minutes that it was not the same. So I'm like, all right, Like a statement of saying the hunting of the two is similar, I would say that that's pretty false for obvious reasons to anybody. But I think when you start talking about interacting and calling animals, there are any other animals that I've hunted anywhere where you call and interact with like that. And I've done a little bit of duck hunting now and that's that gender. That's that gender specific. What calling ducks isn't the same thing. But that's what I'm saying. I don't think it's the same thing at all. You know, even though a lot of people get into the interaction, but it's still not like you're not playing the hen or the cow and trying to call in a bowl, or you could play with the gobbler or another bull and calling the bull. Yeah, terrain similarly to you know, to bring the animal over a roll to come see you know, you making that call. I mean, you do those same two exact tactics. He's gonna be like, you know, it's a lot like turkey hunt. I used to disagreem, but now I agree. Um cal, I don't know. I mean all all good things. That fish deal man, we've been over that a million times, and similar circles on fishing fish off their reds and yeah, it said, it's a real interesting one. Um I had something to that. Yeah, please do. I didn't have my head set on earlier. We didn't have a head set. But it's kind of like the stocked pond. You can make an analogy with the stocked pond, right, like fishing the reds all of us. Probably that would ethnically like kind of not do it now for trout or just whether it's ectics or just kind of like whatever, it's too easy. It's fishing to bucket. The first time you went and did it, you're probably like, holy shit, it's fun, you know, like, oh my god, you know, and then this second or third time, it's kind of like going back to this stocked trout pod. The second Yeah, all right. See that's the thing. That's why I feel a little bit of guilt because I remember um hearing about and really like exploring and trying to find the mythical brown trout spawn. Yeah. Yeah, because this is before it was a bad thing. I remember people like I remember reading in like guide books, you know, good areas to go look for spawning browns. Yeah, yeah, bets probably could find. Guy books told you how to you know, blow up Candida Geese off Damns by packing a buckshot around dynamite sticks to you know what I mean, build yourself a cannon. What you're gonna need. Uh. So that's your concluding thought. You just want to touch back on something earlier. Oh, I guess I'll just say thanks. I love these discussions. That's good and uh and yeah, I guess also absolutely blown away at how much this b h A rendevous has grown. It's crazy. We had those seminars this morning, nuts and I asked, h, I gotta I gotta introduce Remy for his Q and a UM and be the moderator for him. But asked out of the gate, how many people is this year first rendezvous? And I mean it had to have been over fifty of that rare I thought it was even more like eighty plus percent. There's a there's a lot of people in there. Surprised me. See it's four hundred and that had to be over three I think. Yeah. The first one I went to was probably six or seven years ago and it was at the fair ground in Missoula, and I gave a talk to like the dinner thing and uh most maybe a hundred fifty people. Yeah, yeah, it's so it's growing like crazy. Anik market spot on And I mean the youth is so encouraging to see it's the youngest uh um kind of rotten gun anything I've been around, so um pretty neat to see hopefully make its impacts. I think as far as uh, there's lots of talk today, Um, in the last couple of days really about you know, how we move the needle as far as new hunter recruitment and hunter retaining retainment, and um, just like like Remy said many times this morning, it's like, we gotta every single person is an ambassador for what we love to do, and we gotta do a hell of a lot better job putting a better face on it. So, yeah, it's been a cool, uh cool couple of days so far. Mr Phelps. Yeah, so this is my first b H rendezvous. It's been awesome. Um. The only thing that's kind of open my eyes is I'm fairly conservative. I come from a logging town, and then you kind of show up with people that maybe you don't see eye to eye with, but we're all here for the one thing that we love. So they're less taxes. You're like, and I'm gonna make a funny joke, you know, like the shiny puffy coats. I kind of make a joke like at home, I'm the guy in a fleece because that's old school. But yeah, I'm like, I've never been around so many hunters in a shiny puffy coat before. But it's cool because you can take that. And we're all here for the same reason. We all love to recreate on public land. We all love to hunt and fish on it. And for all of us to come together, um as a group of people with the one passion and be laser focused on public lands, is it is awesome? Um? Yeah, And I do want to do you? Do you feel that this? Can you check this out? No, it's got a first, it's got a first. Let you can check it out like part part of my jackets a little shiny. No, No, you're good. No, No, I'm just kidding. Remy's Remy's a jerk for shooting turkeys have a tree? How about bearded hands? So there's two sides, like and then we didn't you guys didn't even really get into like the genetic mutation side of it, like maybe we should get those things out of here? Are they bad? I don't know if it's bad. I've just heard that side of the story, like it is a genetic mutation and we should shoot those things. I would say that without genetic mutations, Um, I feel like life would have ended a long time ago. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm just saying I I wouldn't specifically target one of one came walking through the setup and I knew it was a bearded him. I would probably let it go. But it's it's it's one of those things where you know, I'm not gonna pass my my own belief onto something. You know, if you want to shoot, it's within the state laws. And that kind of gets back to the the fishing thing, um, you know where where kel doesn't want to fish over over the edds, but then maybe my kid does because that's a different experience, and so I don't necessarily say we want to put laws that you know, cover that or blanket it for everybody. But then you know he's out there for the sport and and uh, you know the uncertainty of of hooking up one we're like me taking my kid. Maybe I don't want to do that, but I want to have the ability to take my kid and hook up to that fish. And so I think there's a and you know, you gotta look at it through that scope of of who the person is and um, you know, take take it for what it is. When you were talking earlier about uh, like political spectrums, do you feel that uh, do you feel that that people right, who who lean politically right, and people lean people who lean politically left. Do you see like in your community that people coalesce around the idea of supporting public lands or in particularly supporting federal land management agencies and sort of assisting them and and you know, giving them verbal support and helping them, you know, make decisions that allow access. But you know, do do you feel that there's that people are coming around this idea on your community or do you feel that it's a divisive issue in your community? In the dead center of Warehouser Country, you know, the biggest land management manager in the state of Washington, and so we don't there's a very select few of us that have to travel two hours to the east to recreate on you know, some federal lands. Um, we have some state owned ends and stuff. But so I would around home, it's more of interest on like how warehouses managing, not necessarily on on the you guys are recreating on publicly accessible land that's privately owned. Well, now, as long as you pay three and fifty bucks, you get a key. Yeah. I bought a hundred dollar pass for walking. Yeah. Yeah, so you can do that. Yeah, I mean everybody everybody finds it important, you know, anything that that, um, you know, affects them and their recreation and people are passionate about So we don't get a big push in my area for public lands besides a few of us that that you know, routinely drive two hours eastern saying so when you're when you're hunting local, you're hunting warehouse warehouses or privately owned industrial which yeah, and that's like that too, is a significant thing. And I think that that's a I think people look at the public lands debate and groups like b h A that really support public lands, and I think other people kind of have this question, like like our friend Doug, who's very involved in private land conservation, and he'll kind of feel like he doesn't really say this, but I think it's sometimes he feels like, why all of a sudden, all this attention, Like most land in the country, especially in these most land's private land. If we're gonna get serious about conservation with it, to pay a lot of attention to private land conservation, that's where real con that's where some of the most important conservation work. But you know, I would say him, um, and I do say to him, but but there's not an emptiness there. I think that we have stuff in place to try to do that, like farm bills, CRP programs. I mean, there's a lot more dollars per acre that go into private land conservation issues. But I think he kind of feels that, um, there's a sort of lack of sexiness around all that, just like the work of doing good wildlife work on private land. And I think like that there's this third area too, which is these sort of almost like wilderness type places, these big tree farms which are the size of they only land the size of National four Us that are you know, privately held, and there's a conservation question to have there too, and also like giving them some giving them the credit of allowing a public access program. They're not making tons of money on public access. And I think it comes back and maybe I'm a little off here, but it comes back to the reason we're so passionate about public lands is all eight of us in this room can end up at some wilderness in Colorado hunting, and so we are, um all concerned about the conservation on that piece of public land. Where a private land in Oowa, I have this much interest in it because I'm never gonna get a hunt there, even though I do care about the species. So I think it comes back to a little bit of that selfish nature that all of us in this room can take it and not take advantage. But we we have the ability to to recreate on some of this public land that potentially holds the animals we want to go pursue where that private land back east and it just doesn't hold anything for us, even though we all do care about you know, the the white tail, and and you know the stuff that is back there that that I may not you know, get the get the hunt that private proper. Ever, you know, uh, are you talking about Dog? He's got a funny story. I kind of hesitate to tell this. I don't want to get Dog in trouble. Well I'll tell it. So Dougs in a bar and a guy, like a local guy in the bar. It's like, oh, yeah, if you want to hunt Doug's place, you gotta be like a celebrity. You know, Doug won't anybody on his place, and dogs is half the bar. Goes, I was just hunting Dog's place, So that goes. Baby, You don't hunt Doug's place because you're an asshole. So there is Yeah, I think there is that, like, sure, you're doing great work, but what's the how's it benefit me? Um? Yeah, that's a that's a funny thing to bring up, that there is some sort of like a little bit of a selfish nature about public land because you're looking out for your own best interest. I remember saying it before that if someone came to me, like like with the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, if I had to make a deal. We're talking about this with John Garrick. I think if I had to make a deal with the devil and they said, Okay, here's here's the here's the story, Sonny, you never you're never allowed to step foot back here in exchange for that will never drill it, but you'll never see it again, or you can come here all you want. I would be like, well, I'll take the I'll take the I don't step foot on it ever again. Deal, Like, let's go with that one. So I think that it's not always, but but yeah, I think that you wind up having this idea um of that you do have a sense of ownership over and whether you're gonna use it or not. It feels the same way. That's why I think the thing that needs to happen in the conservation world is the sense of um and it happens in other factions, other cultural factions were an attack on one is an attack on all. But I think that a lot of times outdoors may tend to be very sort of myopic and kind of provincial in their view of that. They're really worried about their corner of the world, and it's like harder to picture. Like for me, I've never hunt in Nebraska, so maybe a conservation issue of Nebraska doesn't feel as immediate to me, right, But to try to foster this conservation sense where where people do they're like, oh, there's trouble brewing Nebraska. I don't go there, probably never will go there, don't have anybodies there. But I'm gonna come in their defense and help him out on this this wildlife issue, just because I'm viewing it like an attack on one, his attack on all. But I think it's super frustrating. It's gotta it's not can't only be a direct threat. It has to be an immediate, direct threat for the hunting community to get really fired up from what I've seen right now, let me get my boots on, uh Mark bourbon concluders. I got a couple one. My level of guilt for shooting the spirited hand is off the charts right now. But I put some thought into it because I was thinking that you got to feeling guilty about the beard and head, well, yeah, because it's I felt bad because well, and actually I'll say this, I kind of felt bad at the moment too. But I put some thought into why those rules are in place, and I think it applies to the scenario in which this incident happened, where I called this burden identified with absolute certainty that it had a beard, Yeah, And I made the decision to pull the trigger based on that, And then upon further discovery, I was like, oh, that's a unique thing. Yeah, but you gotta have some marker, Like you can't say male or female because um, you're gonna invite because people are gonna be like, well, I'm gonna what's the best way to indicate male or femaleness? And someone might very reasonably say a beard because you're not gonna tell him look at the spurs because it's hard to see spurns like it's down on its foot and he's walking through tall grass. So you can have that. You can't say like, oh, you gotta wait till he fans out in struts and displays because a lot of times they don't do that, or he'll gobble. Well maybe he comes in quiet, so at some point. And then there's there's things with the head, like a seasoned turkey hunter will look at the head, especially in the spring, and know what they're looking at, but not always so the same way, dear, like it doesn't say well some states people say like a boker male, but oftentimes it's an antlered deer. Because you gotta go, like, what is the identifying feature that we're all going to agree upon? So the fact that one and one turkeys is masquerading around with the beard, I don't think it's like a it's a legitimate mistake to make. Right. You see, you're sitting there in the woods and here comes to turkey and also there's that beard. It's like game on most people. Well yeah, and that's why I'm I'm I'm almost wondering and I don't know right, But like like you said, it's an identifying feature, so that rule is put in place. So if something like does like that does happen, like that person didn't break the law right because was the intent was not there. Like my guess would be that if there was no such thing as a bearded hint, they'd be like, how you can only shoot you know, So you know that's my that's my And then my other concluder, so's tearing you up? Have you pitched forker Brown off his spawning bed regularly? And then my other concluder is yeah, I mean, and I'll just echo Mark and Cow's uh thoughts on the on the b ch a rendezvous, cool event, awesome like minded people. I think there's um a unique electricity and a unique energy and a strong momentum of of groups that maybe that hunt and fish, but maybe cross a few other boundaries. And uh and I think, you know, I think that momentum is gonna hopefully you know, carry through where people whether you do hunting fish or you know, enjoy public lands for other recrea sational purposes. You know, we can all agree on the same thing, that about how important they are. Well said, I got two concluders, no kind of one who was here when we were talking about all the way different ways they um artificially inseminate and extract semen from dogs and whatnot. You were here, yea, yeah, yeah, I el Rannie and Doug a guy to listen to that, and wrote in how he uh when he wasn't doing animal and physiology studying in a veterinary school, he was talking about their method of horse seeman collection as they would have this, uh he calls it a large wooden contraption that the stallion would do his business too. And after it did his business, you would use a They demonstrated how to use it like a little straw, and you just use a little vacuum created with your own mouth to kind of fill that straw with the semen after he deposed on this, and then you've just packed the straw away for later years. And you say, you only you don't you only oversuck once, then you don't make that you don't make that mistake again. But we have gotten a lot. I'm not gonna go through all. We had a lot of feedback from people about how to extract semen from various creatures that i'll I'll not get into right now, but I wanted to share that one quickly. And the only thing I wanted to say is um, this is from the bottom of my heart, like, uh, dude, it is so nice to have people like all of you guys to talk to, like honestly man um Yeah, and he sense of loneliness one feels in the world, Like find a group of guys like you so you can like talk about this ship and they understand what you're talking about. Uh. It makes me feel very happy and alive. So thank you very much everyone for joining us. Thank you, thank you, thanks for having

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