00:00:04 Speaker 1: Okay, everyone, thanks for joining us. This is the Meat Eater podcast. We're recording out of Scottsdale, but not quite um. In the in the background, you might hear, if you're lucky, a dog bang or barking. That's a that's a that's a lion hunting dog owned by Floyd Green, who owns and operates Outdoorsman's and wilderness Athlete and then his You guys are like, you guys consider yourself a business partners. Yeah, and I don't think the whole world, you guys, whole world is like convoluted to me. But also Chris Denham of Western Hunter in for me from does Western Hunter television show Western Hunter and Elk Hunter magazines managing editor, what do you have change the titles? No, it's publisher. Good, Floyd and I do. Actually we we we treat we're co publishers as Western Yeah. Oh really chance. These guys, these two guys are involved, like and I don't and I don't tend to understand where one thing lets up and where one thing ends and everything begins with. These guys are very involved in a handful of brands and companies and lifestyle things that I'm interested in is uh, wilderness athletes, UM outdoorsmans like wilderness athletes, like performance hancing performance enhancing products, UM outdoorsman's Optics is how you get into that, right, optics, backpack systems, accessories and stuff. It started you started on the optics business, start out the gun business. Well really that's what all doors and begins guns, all right, and the at F shouldn't made me realize that they'd probably be good to have a second occupation. So that's how the optics think came up. That's where the optics thinking. And then what has Western hunter has been around long time? Yeah? Yeah, basically it's funny em Floyd got the optics business. I was a Surowski rep and his first real order besides where Steiner was in was Rovski and it was my Yeah, that's how we met. But the first what I was doing my training with the with the rep group. He gave me a little bit of training the first day on the job and he says, and I want to go to introduce you to this this account over here in town. So we drove over and he walked in and it was the outdoors was Floyd. That day was my first day on the job. As a rep and and he'd just gotten your first Rowski order. At the time, he had just gotten his first Rowski order. And then you gets to Lucia start of magazine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a decade before we started. It started out as a kind of a catalog to talk about outdoors and products and and you know, we put a couple of articles in there and how to how to use this stuff, you know, and uh and before you know that, people wanted to advertise and they wanted more articles, and then we started calling it a matalog and it grew into a magazine and and it's been just a work in progress. I told I told Floyd the story. But um, like I remember so clearly the first time I ever had my hands on an issue Western Hunter. So I went up and seeing like dude sitting there with binoculars on tripods, which I now realized is like I don't like looking through binoculars any other way, but sitting there like looking on like flat, dry ass desert and be like, what in the world are they looking for? That? Yeah, that was quite a while ago. Yeah, so then and then now Elk Hunter too, and I know Floyd and people who watched the show media here probably with no Floyd from we did a um we did an episode of Floyd about hunting for mountain lions and went out twice. Have you had to lay eyes on a mountain lion with Floyd? But it cured me forever of what not cure me up? It made me antagonistic, almost to the point of violence to anyone who wants to tell me that there's no challenge in lion hunting. You know, I'm telling you what, man, It's like, it's like, that's We'll talk about that at another time, but um, I can't wait with that with a very deep respective, but it goes into the line on particularly the dry ground, the no snow lion hunting different. Yeah. Um that that's a whole other conversation. Chris So Chris denhim used to But you were in the tag like the big game tag business. Yeah, you know, I started an application business along with with Western Hunter magazine, oh gosh, probably seven eight, nine years ago, and they ran a tag service for about probably about five or six years. So I finally got burned out on that game. Just really it was an evolution, thank you know. Elkiner magazine came along and did just it just became too many things too to keep up, you know, too many balls in the air constantly. Yeah, and it really because I took my attention to people's tags was just like my own. I was just paranoid. I was constantly I couldn't I couldn't handle the stress that the application because I was so afraid of making a mistaken But I loved it in that it kept me, you know, I was constantly researching, you know, looking at different ideas and options. So I mean, I really enjoyed it in that respect. But but it is a stressful business. So just just to get some background what exactly we're talk about. Were talking about tags, you guys, your people say like play the tag game or tags or you know, applying is most dates, all states in the West and more and more states in the East allocate some number of big game permits to through lotteries to applicants. Right, So whether it's you know, Michigan, Elk, much of Michigan Bear, some areas for turkeys, you know, like Kentucky, Yellow, Pennsylvaniall Loose ye yep, moose and Maine and then everywhere in the West, in some states all big game tags. Virtually all big game tags are awarded through some sort of lottery where on a designated date, usually late winter, right, you fill out an application and sending some amount of money. It varies by state, and we'll talk about that. And you're throwing your name in the hat to get to get a tag, and then they do a drawing and you find out whether or not you're going hunting. And we get so many questions, like like through the show and other things, that's so many questions from people who are always just trying to make sense of this whole system. I'm like, I'm newly familiar to it because when I like everywhere, ever, when I lived in Montana, I was hunt like the over the counter stuff. But more and more you realize that the real dream hunts, you know, like the great stuff you're gonna go do is is uh, you gotta play the system. I mean, you gotta like jump in there and try to figure it out. And it's hard, I think for people to match it to like whatever your budget might be or what your interests are, so you got as much experience and this kind of thing is anybody I know? So I kind of wanted to run through sort of how does a guy who knows that at some point right he's gonna go out and do like a hunt, Like how do you begin even thinking about this kind of stuff? And like where where does a person spending money? Where? How much morneing does it cost? Like how do you you know? What's the tag plan? You know? The the first thing that guy needs to do is starting the research end, you know, And there's there's resources out there. Um, you know, traditionally it was like hunt Ful Eastman's that all had you know, information on different units, what the premier units were. But then now you've got a lot of online stuff. Come on, there's one hour right now called go hunt dot com. They just came out this year, um, and they've got some It's an incredible resource with maps. I mean, everything you'd want to know about a unit, about a state, about a species is all right there. You can break it down which which units have archery tags, which units have rifle tags. They just they've only been live about ninety days and really it's an impressive program you've got. But there's a lot of resources online. That Hunter's trailhead that you said to you and I've talked about that it's got all your your point points, what how many points it might take to draw certain areas. But the first thing I guy gotta do is allocate a budget. And it because it is it really does come down to money. You've got to spend some money. You told me, like just like when you when you get into the money thing. I had a conversation with you a couple of years ago. We're tom about whether or not you could ever draw a big horn tag, and you had said something to me, if you can clarify your own point, you said something to me to the effect of, if a guy comes to me and he's in his I can't remember his late forties, early fifties and says he wants to start trying to get a big horn tag, you tell him just take all that money now and go up to a last and go on a dollar sheep hunt, because you're gonna want to up spend that much anyways, and you're not gonna get It's true, honestly, and I've never actually done the math, but I think I think it might it might actually be accurate. If you took all the money you were going to spend on, you know, mandatory hunting licenses and preference points. Uh, it took all that money and went and bought you know, because it could be up to you're gonna be in the two thousand range for that dollars for a sheep for sheep applications, you could. I think if you went down and bought two thousand dollars worth the lottery tickets, you probably stand a better chance of winning a million dollars in the lottery. Then you do a drawing a sheep tag, you win a million dollars, and then you go buy all those tags, you know, deals. It's a it's a shame that that. It's it's a shame. It's just the reality of what we live in nowadays is that these tags are extremely rare and everybody knows about them. For the most part. There's a lot of resources and then there's just a lot of people applying for him, and everybody wants a chance. Yeah. Actually, I think a lot of the raffles that states have nowadays have better odds sometimes than there than the Actually, remember you're saying to me that the Colorado raffle, Like if a bighorn raffle tag in Colorado, the money it costs you to apply for a sheet tag in Colorado. If you spend that money on raffle tickets, you you get to where you have as good odds, and if you spend like a little bit extra, you'd have more better odds than you do in the regular draw absolutely, you know, especially in those you know, four or five years ago. Unfortunatelybody kind of figured this out too, is it. You know there was three or fourth and tickets getting sold for that raffle tag. If you went't spent fifteen hundred bucks, you can get your odds up to five or six percent, seven percent where's your odds? And then drawing, you know, we're you know, down in the half percent to one percent. I mean, it's literally twenty times better odds for you know, twenty times more money. But at least you can't the one thing we can't buy his time. So if you can improve your odds by you know, twenty fold, you know, and you've got the resources and you know it was a wise move at the time, and you can craft me. But I think that a guy that writes for you guys, Mike um like to plan do plan right. He did that and one of those tags. He's the Colorado guy Yeah, he's sawing about mule deer in Colorado, so yeah, so county. And he drew big one big corn tag. He want to stay wide, to stay wide and rocking mountain, big horn tag and tremendous sheet yeah yeah, yeah, tremendous ramad like eleven thousand feet in October is a pretty epic story. Yeah, the lure of that stuff, Like what's so cool about the limited draw things? Like the first limited draw teg I re drew was a turkey limited draw, a tag in the area that that was the first year they ever allowed turkey hunting there. There's this place we used to always hunt black bears, and I was like, man, there's a ton of turkeys around here, but you couldn't hunt them. Then one year, I just like get the turkey book and looking they're given occumra what it was twenty tags or fifteen tags this giant part of northwest Montana, and drew it and went out there, and like people are always talking about, yeah, these animals have never heard a call. I can guarantee those birds never heard a call because I was like the first hunt to occur there. I drew that tag a number of times and it was amazing. And it's like everybody dreams about getting these situations that there's no other dudes around, you know, or it's just like where it's like a pure hunt. You know, you're just like you're hunting animals that aren't you're you're not You're hunting animals that are doing something more than just responding to other hunters. And certainly you can achieve that, you know, with just like over the counter tags, But when you start getting into the into the drawing units is when I mean you get like just the magical, magical spots that is the best. But you know, that's the thing about the draws is it does put you into a hunt where you're gonna have a lot less competition for people, um and and then nowadays, honestly that's really where the magic is for those hunts, because you know, even in Arizona, you know, we were Floyd and I've been talking about it, how even are some of our best elk units, in our best deer units are getting pretty much overrun. I mean, there's just because hunters are becoming so much more efficient. You know, we're hunting, you might have two or three buddies out there with you we've all got really good gear. Where a lot more committed than we used to be. I mean it used to be like an archery ol kunt in Arizona. If you were out there on the weekends, you'd see people. If you're out there on Wednesday, you were by yourself. Nowadays, everybody's out there for the entire season. You know, they're just hunted, like the whole vacation they burned. You feel like you've noticed that in your life, Oh, absolutely absolutely. I remember when the first time I ever drew an archieolk tag. It was in six A, which is one of our biggest units. Here's you know, more out tags. And I it was the first time I ever elk kind And I'm from born and raised in southern Arizona, so I didn't even know anything about the woods. Uh and uh Anyways, I it was a Wednesday, It was a Wednesday in a hunting and on a Thursday, and I got lost before GPS is I got lost, I mean lost, bad lost. But you know your Arizona, you can only walk two miles before you get hit another road in uh. But I walked all freaking day before I finally ran into somebody in a truck, you know, I mean during huts like the woods having want to you know, nowadays you just stand there and listen. You'll hear the roads, you know, because there'll be you can hear trucks racing all through them. It's like we're saying, like in a unit, same number of tags is always. It just feels different now, it just feels totally different. Yeah, everybody's just hunting longer, They're hunting harder. You know, they're more committed because you're all reading Western Hunter. There's a lot of and the friends thing, right, I mean, everybody goes out there with the team now. And I felt like I even noticed it in Unit ten. I'm the only guy there three years and it might have been just this one particular glass and now, but I felt like the first year I was there, I felt like, Wow, I got this great glass and knob and like there's no boot tracks up here, Like there's really no sign and like, man, I'm looking at a lot of ELK. Great two years later or two calendar years, but it was the third season I got it there. I hike up there when with a guy and there's already three guys there, and then as it's getting line. I want to say, like six guys showed up, and I mean it was like this whole canyon room was covered up with people with I mean there was a hundred thousand dollars worth of optics sitting up there, you know. And I'm looking at my guy like, well, those guys are not hunting. They all have dudes down there hunting. You and I need to leave because it's just you and I. So I can't tell you to go somewhere, you know. So you know, in all of man years go, I can remember we would be up there glass and people walking around out there, and you'd see that another hunter and you'd look him over read place to look at his path, and you look at me. If you saw a tripod, you think this guy's a threat. And then you see a guy walking there's no trick pod. You the guy. He's just taking his rifle for a hike. You know. It's just the intensity and the level and the skill set that these guys have these days is dramatically changed. It really is. It's a funny race. You know, trail cameras, you know, I mean there's trail cameras everywhere. You know, the big bulls the big bucks there are all there's somebody's got a picture of almost all of them. They all think they're gonna kill that one, you know. So they got all their buddies out there looking for that bull. Everybody bull's got a name. You know. It's a you know, not to be a downer, but it is a little frustrating. Yeah. I remember someone saying that, Um, they walked up to a a water hole here somewhere in Arizona. It's kind of like a dozen trail cans or something. Now, Floydnead floydne had a strip tag a couple of years ago, and we were out there and when he says strip, to tell me what you mean by it's Arizona Strip, but up north of the Grand Canyon, and it's it is the It as a density, it's got more huge non typical meal deer than any other place on Earth. It's you know, it's just an amazing place. Lots of huge year The genetics are phenomenal. And we were there in a Floyd drew in a really tough year. I mean it was it had a really dry spring, dry summer in the Antler development just wasn't very good. There was one buck we had found. But let me let me pould you again, because this is an interesting point that I never I had never even heard of this till until we were talking earlier today. If you guys get a drought or like a dry spell in the right period of time, you see that in the antlers of the animals, no doubt. Yeah, if it's if you don't get the rain right, you know, right before antlers drop, and then certainly all the way through that growth phase, if there's not green stuff growing, then you know, the the elk are really susceptible to it. But then up on the strip it's a it's a desert, it's a high desert up there. And if they don't get it up there, and if they've got a late spring, it's cold and they don't get any green up early. You know, those bucks just don't put on the development. I mean, it could be dramatic, you know, you know, it's like, yeah, I just never you know, coming from I was living the North, you just never think of water as a limiting factor. So anyways, so so Floyd drew on a dry year. Right before we hear the rest of that story, let's take a quick break. So anyways where we there was one particular buck that Floyd passed on the third day. Third day, of course, I'm Senegal. We need to shoot this duer. We need to shoot this dude. We need Floyd's like no ideverybody will do better. And Chris is I need to tell you find it. Chris is complained about hunting with you that you never want to shoot you. You'd just like to go and look around. It's bad. We're looking at this bunk. I thinking this box typical, you know. And he's got one little he's got one little point that's sticking out. So we call the middle Finger because his points to stick not like this. And uh so we find middle Finger coming off this ridge and we know he's gonna hit this water hole. He's got doze and his doz has just got their heads down. They're gonna hit this water hole. So we bust around the other side. It's gonna drop into a hole. We're not gonna be able to see him. So we go right where we can see this this water tank and it was a game of fish catchment. Uh that was that surrounded by pipe and uh it's a drinker there and then that drinker feeds into a cattle drinker. Well, we're sure he's gonna come out to the cattle drinker is closer that way. So we get over there and we get set up and it's just gray light. I mean, the sun's just set. But Arizona, you got thirty more minutes, and we knew a bunch of We saw a bunch of does coming off behind us, and we know they're gonna hit this game and fish water and they start jumping the fence into this game and fish thing and the flashes they are going off of the camera. I mean, it was like Britney Spears just showed up kidding cameras and every one of them got a couple of minute delay. It looked like firefloor. Yeah, just this is in perfect vision from is it Britney Spears? And you know what I mean, it's just there. It was amazing how many cameras around that water hole, and we could see seven or eight. We didn't want to walk down to the water, so we were just lasting. I'm seeing them on these you could see seven or eight of them. They were everywhere on that water and this and this water from the nearest gas station had to be three hours three hours to the nearest gas station. You know, that's how remote this place was. And there's that many cameras out there. See that. That's like just to bring us around where we're not what we're talking about, but the bringing around the main stuff that I'm trying to talk about is that's the kind of thing where when you're looking at these applications and you're gonna applying for stuff, that's the kind of thing you don't know, you know. And so there's like, for instance, I drew a musk like I drew a muskox. I had a muskox tag this year that I went and hunted on, But I drew the same tag on New Nevak Island in Alaska in two thousand ten. I think I had the tag I just put in, like, oh, I go hunt muskox, put in a unit knowing nothing about it, okay, and then later learn that that unit, by law, which it says nothing about this in the REGs, but that unit by law, you have to hire a transporter or guide because the only place to land on New Nevak Island is in the town of mccoriak. In the town of mccoriak, happens to be a native corporation is chupa Eskimo. You can't get on the island without landing on their land, and so they have a thing that you're gonna hunt out of there. You gotta hire one of them as a guide. So you put in your thing thinking like oh yeah, you know, you look at the map of the island, it's all federal land. You're like sweet public land, Muskox hunt. But then the minute you start, you drawn the tag and you're like, not quite, man, it's a little more complicated that. In fact, you need a few more thousand dollars if you're gonna do this thing. It's like hard to know that kind of stuff. And so it kind of comes around, like we're talking about with Chris being like, uh, doing a tag services and help people wade through all this stuff. And so often people that do the permit draw game, there's some units people want. They're just gonna kill. You have the potential to kill like a giant animal. Personally, I'll trying to look as much as that's something i'm interested in. Like when I do my Montana application, I always put in like a unit I'll never be hunted, and I know it's like something they want to kill a big mule here, and there's a big multar unit Montana. I put that down. At other times when I'm doing like a mountain goat unite, I don't really care. Like, you know, if I had like a record book mountain goo It's not gonna be like my potential record. But muscos, this is not something that's gonna come up in conversation very often. When I'm picking a mountago at unit, I'm thinking of where is it gonna be the most fun to hunt, you know, I mean like where is the best chance of seeing no other person around? You know, So there's these different little things you're trying to weigh out. Yeah, I think that would be my number one piece of advice to two serious hunters when it comes the application game. Is pick out areas that you you know that have those dream hunts. You know, to seventy in Montana from meal deer, you know, and in to thirty one in Nevada from meal deer, the Henrias and Aria in in Utah. There's a strip in Arizona, but really that kind of the big meal deer around those are the big Yeah, we're kind of missed the Ponts agout and of course half of Colorado. But but but look for areas that you know putting for those dream hunts. But look for areas where you think you can draw a tag if you can come out west or if you live out west and hunt every year or every other year. Look for those areas that you could hunt every year every other year, because I really do believe that a guy like Colorado is a classic. There's there's been a Buda Crocket deer killed in every county in Colorado. I mean, there are some units that are far better than others, certainly for overall quality, but everyone of them has the potential to produce a monster. And if a hunter would pick a unit in Colorado that he can hunt every year or every other year and come out and do that, he will kill a monster buck long before the next guy ever draws, you know, one of the premier units. Yeah, before you accumulate you're like eighteen points, at which point you've never even for eighteen years, you don't even know what the hell you're doing. It's really like, you just need to know what your goal is, because if your goal is like whatever it is, that one nine or just a big mule here that looks big to you. You don't need to go to the Henry's or the Kaibab to do that, Like you're saying, you can go to probably half of Wyoming and you know, half of Colorado. I'm sure you've seen it, you know, guy Nail Cunters. I mean, everyone of them thinks they want to kill a monster, and then you show him a three ten bowl, three twenty bowl, and all of a sudden, their whole idea of a monster just got redefined because that bowl is a monster. You know, they actually get one in front of him. Oh no, where I got it. We would like pass on a five point the first day and then on the second day four point. I guess kind of like in Arizona. Might be a little different out but I think way too many guys are looking for what you know, the magic hunt in the magic draw, the magic unit and not realizing they're trying. Are forgetting the fact that hunting skills are something are only acquired through experience. You're not gonna get it sitting you know, you can read Western Hunter Magazine all you want, you know, I'd love to think you could learn everything you need to learn, but you can. You guys want to give GPS coordinates in there. No, we don't even give units. We don't even talk about units. But I always feel like I always feel like calling you to ask you where some of these articles happen. But I feel it could be unfair. I might tell you if you put it on the podcast. You know we were talking about Uh, I'm addressed, and the listener not you. Guys. There's like long shot units, and then there's like within the draw spectrum. Okay, you have long shot units where you might have a half percent, quarter whatever chance to draw the tag, and then you have something that you'll hear the term and undersubscribed unit. Undersubscribed units where your States Fishing Game Agency says, let's they say, okay, where you have about one elk tags in this area. But traditionally only guys ever even put in right. So it's we'll say it's like a guaranteed draw, meaning theoretically you could not get it if if interest suddenly spike, but just every year, not enough people do. But there's no over the counter option, so if you don't hit the deadline and fill out your application, you won't get the tag. Some states will sell those leftovers where they call the surplus. They'll sell them on a first come, first served basis. Some states that's just it. It's like if you don't put in, you don't get it. And so a lot of times you hear of a guy it'll be summertime. This happens to me all the time. You hear from some guy in June or Joe is gonna go elk hunt in this year. And you always want to be like, well, you already like you already missed out of the state's opportunities in the States because just didn't do your thing on time. It's not that you can't go if you put it in, because you can't like you're saying you can go hunt. You can go hunt elk in Colorado every year. These thing when when when you and I when Chris, when you and I have spoken about hunting Arizona, your feelings about Arizona, or like hunt couster in Arizona, because you can spend all this time trying to get a muleder tag in Arizona. Meanwhile, you can go on a deer hunt every year every year. I mean at the the unit with the unit you and I both had this year were success on the draw. I mean, I mean there's we have probably ten or twelve couster units every year. They go undersubscribed on the first and second choice. You mean you could draw him on a third choice. You could hunt the thing every year every year. Yeah, So like play, like doing tags and lottery draws. It's not just it's not just about that year in eighteen years or whatever, gonna get this chance to go like a big one. It's also just like are you able to hunt or not just go hunting because I I've just I've watched so many guys over the years that they're they're hunting skills just basically deteriorate because they're sitting around waiting for a magical tag that may or may never come, you know, and even the best units, even that, you know, even the strip, as good as that is and as much hard work as everybody puts into that, the success on the hunt each year is only around So guys, wait, literally, you know, a hunter's lifetime for a tag, and only a little better than half of those hunters actually kill a deer, And those those that kill a deer, maybe half of them kill a deer. That they dreamed of. So sev of the people that draw that tag go away in some sense of that. We're disappointed, but you think a lot of them don't show up. No, I go some of those every year because you know, with an organization I work with the Outdoor Experience for All where people can donate tags to us if they can't come. Uh, it usually runs two to five percent. You know, for drugs. There really are guys that are out there hunting that are not just can't make it for one reason or another. You know, whether it's you know, they just had a new baby in the house, or you know, their daughter decided to get married right in the middle hunting season, or some travesty like that. But yeah, it does happen. The guys just don't even show up, you know. And you had and didn't kill one, right, No, we never shot twice twice do table lifetime. So what happens when you go at what happens when you go up there? You look at a lot of deer, then you could fly the area that yeah, fluid along. I've looked at a lot of big deer. I've been involved with some big deer that have been taken up there. The deer we passed, you know, a hundred ninety bug. But when you go up there, it's a special place to me, and you know, in hindsight, I would have probably shot the hundred ninety in deer, but you never know when you might see a two forty type deer. That year was particularly there was a few deer shot in that category, but very limited. Jess onlines up there some not a whole bunch, not a whole bunch, but when you flew it, you flew it looking for mule deer right and saw lots of things. Well, actually I went up there with knowing there was five larger deer there and saw three deer that would break to two thirty mark. So when you know they're there and you know the place says that kind of genetic capability, it's really hard for me to shoot a smaller deer. And I don't, you know, Chris like Chris and I actually fun with it, but I really don't ever feel like I need to shoot anything, and I you know, I kind of enjoyed that. It's uh, I think we've about gave Nate and anders On that hunt. To me, it's so refreshing. Actually, did you know to hear you say that, you know that you can just go out there and just have a great time was such high stakes and come away with no deer and be like that was awesome. We certainly get to hunt the whole hunt. I'm always teaching that was nine days, ten days todays, not hunt at all other than the mental aspect. But the country for the most parts just not It's not the challenge. I mean, it's not a lot of It's not like a lot of up and down stage and secret country. You just you're pounded and pounded, your tires take a beating. But you know, you know, I make fun of flu because they tease them about not shooting that deer, but kind of think about all the stories we would have missed out on the storytelling time we had. It would have it would have been almost a travesty if we shot that deer on the third day, the lost six and six days or to last one thing that I've I've found myself doing and I never did like I only Chris, I've known you the whole time. I've done it only for a handful of years. Started applying for tags and states where I don't have like deep connections. Okay, so I've always done you know, I lived in Montana, have have family, they're still have family in Alaska. So I've always done like the Montana and Alaska draws, and it was kind of like hunting my home ground, you know what I mean. I won't even the last few years beginn applying for states where I don't even where. I'll have to figure it out once. I if I draw a tech you know where I just don't know what's going on. But no, I pretty much do virtually all Western states. And I have a way where I sort of think under your guidance a little bit. I think if some as being just start now and accumulate points and then maybe someday when you're an old man, you'll have like these amazing trips, you know. And in the other states you think of as like your opportunity states that you're just gonna go and do so, like I have, like from from my understanding, if I'm right, like Nevada, you're just playing a long game. It's a long wait. Arizona can be a long wait for a lot of stuff. At least Arizona we have we have a Maxi bonus point pool, so which how are you gonna get you can't get there? Yeah, it was meal there. It sucks. You know, if you hunt the strip, if if you know, if somebody's listening right now and they haven't ever applied for the strip in you're a nonresident, don't don't even waste your time. You literally never draw it in your entire life. Because what percent of those tags go to the max point holder go to the maximonus point holders and how many points those guys have right now? I think it's seventeen or so. But the biggest problem for non residents is ten percent. We have a ten percent maximum for non residents, so there's the of the tags go to the maxi bonus point pool. Only ten percent of the total tags can be non residents. So a lot of nonresidents when we started the bonus point system years ago, they started applying back then, so there's a very large number of non residents sitting in the maximonus point pool. So by the time the tent is reached, the ten percent already reached. So technically a nonresident doesn't even have a chance unless he's in the maximonus point pool. I mean, you can be two points off you can be an applying for the last sixteen years, you probably still will not draw that in your lifetime, considering the fact that you're probably already in your mid forties. You know, if you've got that many points, you know in your lifetime you're hunting lifetime. We're talking in years. So what do you think, like getting away from the the practical matter of getting points, what in't your opinion is sort of the like the cultural effect of that system is that area like like like take there, we're talking about the strip area that is that area is so limited in water and stuff that you can't you couldn't just start issuing over the counter tags for any book. Would you damage the resource? Oh yeah, destroy it up there? Which it was exactly why we're in the predicament we're in right now where there's a lot of speculation. Why will have a ton of input on this, But there was a time in the fifties and the sixties when the strip was over the counter. They had a huge number of deer up there. It had a very large number of deer. And then you know it's a combination of effects of over hunting. There's probably some predation, But back then I'm probably. I'm guessing they probably killed the snot out of predators back then, so it's just over hunting. Um. They knocked the dear population down to a point where Game of Fish had to come in and start setting a tag quota. But that population had been suppressed to the point where it's never been able to recover the areas. Yeah, so that they actually suppressed it to the point where predators then did become a problem. You know, once a prey base gets so yeah, bounced back and get above that level where it where the predators consumed so many that it's holding the population down. Yeah, and I can see that. But they're not able to swamp the predators with just keep all fed. Yeah, they can't. They can't drop enough bonds, you know, to keep all the predators fed. And the strip I mean now it's sixty five tags for the strip, and the strip is I don't know how many million square miles tanks. So yeah, so if you just said, all right, we're gonna do just the opportunity, it hadn't be they ain't Joe below could go buy a tank for the area. You feasibly just just killing be here, kill everybuck. No, there's just not a chance you see it. It's so obviously true. It's like like every were talking about big arms. I think you and I had this conversation before, like there's not a thousand big oaring tags in the country. No, not now, No, I'd think to know how many thousands of people apply for less than thousands big horn tags, but you could. Yeah, it's if you just were to give out big oaring tags, you'd issue hundreds of thousands of more tags. And there are big horn cheap and exist and literally that's one thing people ask me all the time. Sometimes people will take for granted and I think that people who have no desire to like to go shoot a deer should go shoot a deer or so I don't I don't understand the people. I was like, do you think everybody should go kill a deer or else you shouldn't eat any meat? Like, well, one problem off toime of my head is we would immediately have a two hundred million deer deficit if everyone in this country went out and shot a deer. It's actually, you know, I was looking and you know a buddy years Joe Rogan. You know, he's on the cover of What's Peterson's hunting is talking about the new the phenomena, you know, the hipster hunting movement, you know, and and how that's you know, I wonder at times, just what kind of effect is they going to have in states where you have you know, over the counter tags that's gonna almost have to you know, when you look into you know, Oregon and and you know California's got a lot of private land, but you know Idaho where you've got it over the counter tags, uh in you know, large parts in Montana. You know, if all these people do go out and start hunting, you know, we all think that's a wonderful thing, but at some point I'm wondering, how wonderful is it. That's that's my my brother. He like when people talk about hunary cruitment, he can't stay in the idea of it, you know, but he's not looking at it from I mean, it's the wholder conversation, but he's not looking at it from the legal end of just how hunter is just gonna get trounsed in the legislature, you know, like as the as the percentage of Americans who hunt shrinks and shrinks, and people keep talking about like the new breed of hunters. But when they talk about hunter increase in recent years, when they say, like there's a nine percent increase, that's not that doesn't mean nine percent nine percent more of the American population something to talk about a nine percent increase of like one percent of the population. You know, Yeah, we're just so it's like I don't know, Like I don't know, are they like how many more tags are actually getting sold right now than five years ago. It's a great question because, you know, because I agree with you, I think most of this increase in in hunter uh in the number of hunters applying. It's just most of us are applying in multiple states now. The game of Fish departments have gone to online applications, you know, the new generation hunters just totally into the online thing. They're allowing you to use a credit card now or you used to have to write a check. And I think the bonus point thing is a huge thing because it doesn't feel like money wasted. People think they've got something when they get a point. I feel that way. That's why like Alaska, New Mexico don't offer bonus points, and I always feel like one, like you got a good chance to draw on something because you know, like you're in there with everybody, but you also feel like you didn't come away with some like tangible good. You know, you're the best odds of drawn a sheep tagger, go tagger, and moose tagger all in Idaho. But Idaho doesn't have bonus points, so people don't apply there because they don't feel like they're getting something for their money. They gotta buy a hunting license and they got a front quite a bit of money, but they're not getting a tangible asset when it's all said and done, like somehow you can wild these points to your kids. You know, when it's all said and done, people just don't apply. Therefore, you know, Idaho's got the best odds of drawing any one of those tags by how by how much? Oh, you know, on sheep, you're looking at, you know, anywhere from three to seven percent chance in some units. You know they were in most of the you know states like Arizona, New Mexico. Call it what in Mexico is terrible for different reasons, but Arizona, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, you know, you're looking at half percent to one percent odds. So you know, roughly fourteen fifteen times better. And uh, it's it's all about when they don't have they don't have really big sheep too, so that that doesn't help either. But uh um, but yeah, it's just a fact that they're not getting a bonus point. People don't want to they don't want to put the money on for the listeners. I'll say that the three the three animals that are just the three animals that are single percentage point odds of hunting are things that most people aren't interested. Like the most people aren't interested in hunting anyways unless you get really into hunting. Is like moose, sheep and goats. So like moose, big orange sheep, mountain goats. Um, it's just like you're not gonna drive unless you're if you're an Alaska resident, you'll be able to hunt mountain goats often. But no, it's just the kind of thing where you might get the opportunity once or twice in your lifetime, you know, in the West to hunt those animals, um, compared to everything else white tail, mule to or out you know. But it's funny as like we keep talk about these limited draw things in the West, and meanwhile they got areas in the East where they can't get people to shoot enough dear. There's like it's like there's two conversations going on, you know. I mean, like one hand, we're sitting here talking about all these plans to try to like find a way to get a chance to hunt them out and go. And in the other hand, they're thinking about overturning, you know, a hundred and thirty years of wildlife conservation efforts and making it you can go back to selling dear met on the market as way to try to get people interested in killing white tailed deer. It's just hard to tell. It's hard to tell where things are headed. And I've reread about it all the time, Like I've reread about, um, what the ramifications might be if we do, in fact get a bunch of new hunters. What what do we owe those people as far as opportunity goes? You know, Like how hard should should fishing game agencies be sitting back and saying, all right, never mind growing animals to full maturity, never mind growing animals to trophy size, we should just allow people to start killing deer. And it wind up being like where I grew up in Michigan, if you killed a two and a half year old deer, it was people came from miles away to look at that thing. It just didn't happen. I want, like, I have no idea what that means for the deer herd. Yeah, it's a you wind up with a very skewed one. You wind up in these situations like where I grew up. Is it is like we're talking about over to counter maximum opportunity. Everyone that wants can go buy a buff tag and you'll sit and you'll see thirty to forty dolls for every buck you see, and you never see a buck who makes it past definitely, Like I was saying two and a half, really that's kind of unfair, but like a three and a half or four and a half year old deer, no way, no way. And so it's like that's where opportunity got it was is like deer are born one to one. Yeah, so when you're sitting there and you watch twenty dolls walk by for every bod you see, those things are born in a one to one ratio, you know, And that's like sort of like opportunity management in my mind, run amuck. You have a very false pop like you have a very manipulated population a deer there, you know. And then the other hand is some of the stuff that we're talking about, like certain units in Arizona where you gotta apply eighteen years to draw the tag is way limited, but it's probably a more realistic You're probably looking at her to elk that probably resembles like a pre contact her elk. Yeah, very is more likely pre European contact her elk where you got elk there living to be nine years old, and there's a bunch of bulls. Yeah, and you've got you've got old mature bulls that are genetically superior, passing on their jeans, you know, because they are the big, dominant, strong animal decision. Yeah, so you've got you know, whereas in the the the maximum opportunity areas, you've got spikes doing the breeding. Who knows what their genetic potential really is. I mean, I don't mean just big anilers. I mean just survivability. You know, do they have disease resistance? Are they able to live even could they possibly even live to four or five years old? You know, you've got those kind of deers, those kind of bucks passing on their genes. You know as as opposed to a buck that survived six years of hard winners. He knows where, you knows where and how to winner. Uh, you know, he's got the genetic makeup to be a survivor. You know, you end up with and it's got to hurt the population. Another thing you hear people talking about is it puts it winds up putting reproductive stress on young animals, like young animals that wouldn't be putting energy into breeding become like breeding contenders and go to breed. But I see, like, I see both sides, you know, like I do with every issue, Like every wildlife issue is so complicated. I definitely see both sides of it because just asking myself, if that's there, if we're going to that direction, does it really Do I really want to be in a situation where I can only hunt once every four or five years? No way, man. You know, if you take a close look at the North American big game model, it was never about managing opportunity for hunters. It was about managing wildlife. And we've all got to keep our eye on that. That's really what it's all about. Yeah, it wasn't like, yeah, no, I see you're saying, no one ever looked at it and thought, we, oh, we need to have these animals and people can shoot them. It was all about the wildlife. And I think whenever we decided that that's like here in Arizona, our habitats, it's so much different than say the Midwest or somewhere even in the Northwest particularly, but we just don't have the density of wildlife to fulfill the desires of the population day sharing Arizona. This residents much less with the non resident factors. So I mean, we just it's it's a rare opportunity if you're one of the lucky ones that gets to go hunting, and otherwise we just need to take care of the restlers. Because the same that years somewhat like where the water. You'll see the impact of water on the growth of an animal. I mean, you're living in a like a like a water limited in the reproductions the same way some years and some years we've got years that were so drowty that the elk didn't they didn't ruck, or it was marginal events, and then a lot of those cows didn't take and didn't reproduce just because it was so you know it was a marginal year for them to survive, much less to carry an offspring. Yeah, one thing you guys touched on a little while ago that was really something I see a lot of, or see every year. Hunters that put in for these once in a lifetime hunts and then finally draw this once in a lifetime hunt. They really don't have that skill set that say their friend or neighbor that is hunting some species every year, because those skills are you know, they're gonna allow it. They'll pass from species to species. But we had a good friend here a few years ago draw a strip tag and a really good smart guy and I don't think he'd been deer hunting in over a decade. Hired one of the very best guides in the state, and they have the most miserable hunt and opportunities to take great deer on multiple occasions, and just couldn't close the deal because the skill set wasn't there. Remembered about what marksmanship, or just delity to move and getting the safety off on time, to get the bullets in the gun to you know, just all those things that a guy that hunts a lot takes for granted, it's it's no guide in the world can overcome your inability to function under stress. And people think, I'll just go hire this this outfit are over here. These guys have done a great job, and everybody that hunts with him as successful. Well, you got to do your part. And a lot of these guys show up with no skill sets. They can't pull it off. That's a big deal. I married guy in Archie. L hunters, especially in Mexico, we always gotta We always got a lot of Midwesterners, you know, guys are white tail hunters. And the first day they'd be a stressed out mess. You know, bowls are screaming, and they have just you know, they're not sure which way to start point their bow. But by the second day they settled down, you know, and they're starting to get a little customed to it. And by the time you got a bowl inside thirty yards. That was my favorite client because he knew, he knew he'd shot so many white tailed deer, he knew how to hold that pen, he knew how to pick a spot, and he knew how to make a shot, you know, And how many guys in in Arizona, I know that uh, you know, they just they just freak out because the first time they have actually drawn their bow on an animal in eight years, you know, since the last time they drew an eilk tag. Um. Yeah, so the experience is invaluables. So I think on it every year. I'm trying to draw areas. I'm looking at areas where I can draw over and over again. You know, in Utah, you know, I'm gonna go to an area hopefully this year they hunted. Last year that had hunters everywhere, but there was deer everywhere too. You know, there wasn't big, huge deer, but there was decent, you know, just good looking four points I could find the and four points. But just get out there, and even for myself, just more experienced, more experienced, more experience, because then all of a sudden, there's gonna be Buck one of these days, and you know, hopefully, you know, gain enough experience shooting a smaller Bucks to make happen on that big But what is your I asked you to do this for me when when putting together the guide book series we have coming out, But Um did things like like like Denim's picks walk through what you feel like like one of the dream tag scenarils, so like walk through if you're gonna have to say, um, sort of like around the country, what are like a handful of things that if someone wants to do big game draws that what are some of the handful of long term goal, life altering things they should be doing. If I had to pick the dream hunts go by species, I'd say big horn sheep in the river, the river break country Missouri breaks country of Montana. I mean that's that's the one you put in for. Yeah, I always put in for like like six eight along with everybody got to. I mean you've got to. I mean it is that. I almost rather I wouldn't say, wouldn't rather hunt sheep, not hunt sheep in Montana? Then not draw that tag. But I'd just rather have that tag when you look like everybody knows, because people always had this conversation like six eight six eight, everyone knows six eighty. So there's a website you were showing hunters trailhead where you can go in and put in like how many bonus points you have nonresident resident, and it will give you an idea over the last handful of years what your odds would have been. And then it doesn't project though, right, No, it doesn't project shows you what your odds would have been in the previous years with with X number of points. Um. When I'll go look at those things, like you can put it in six eighty and realize you have point three percent chance, you know, and you look at the unit right next to it, and it will be point six percent chance. You're like, that's twice you know, yeah, that's twice as good, but twice as good. It's through still because people just put down six because it's like the famous unit. Man. I think sometimes you just got to you gotta believe that when it's your turn, it's your turn. The area is so cool, the animals are so cool, you can find them, right, Like, you're not gonna I shouldn't say that if you're an ambitious person who plans, well, you're not gonna draw that, not going to get a ram, right you know. Yeah, you're become whether you get like a giant or something, but you're gonna go there and be like, wow, there's a big orange sheet. Yeah, and that'd be one. You know, I would shoot a ram on that hunt, I mean, but I guarantee i'd probably if I didn't see a two kind of ram. You know, I'd be shooting a hundred seventy on the last day. It's a long season. You've got tons of time, and you can just look at a lot of sheet, a lot of sheep. You know, in Arizona, everybody to think, you know, your first instinct would be elk, But honestly, I'd have to say, well, desert big horn sheep. You know, in Arizona, you gotta you, you gotta go after desert big horn down here and and down here. Honestly, even though units twenty two and twenty four B or the units where they're killing the big sheep that everybody sees, but they're generally hunting those you know on the lake country. Yeah, the big reservoir where you're going in the boat. The only thing I regret about and I drew a bu tag back when it was north and South it was just one unit. And the only thing I regret over that is there's areas in Arizona like down in the Cabeza Prietta, Uh down it's down on the Mexican border where you can go for an entire month and you will not see another human being. If you choose not to. I mean, you are out there. You might see some drug runners, but that's about it. But you are in the wildest of wild country and you may not kill a tram. You're not gonna probably kill a hundi tram, but you're gonna have an adventure of a lifetime. That's the take. That's a take I would take. Yeah, I would rather have that in their way around. Yeah, you know, if you know, unfortunately, you know, I drew a great tag and had a great hunt, but uh, now I have to live in like a little league dad. Now my son's got fourteen or fifteen points and we have to live vicariously through him, and hopefully he'll draw one of those tags and we'll get to go do it, you know, an epic day hunt. But but that that's an interesting point with within the question. I already asked you, how is your good? He's twenty one, so he's already got that many points, so he'll hunt big horns absolutely center. I was talking to the guy, one of the guys that hunting fool. I had a conversation with him about this. He's saying, I can't remember what he said. If you're thirty and you start doing this, He says, you have a very good chance hunting two big horn sheep at thirty. If you're thirty years old, you start doing it, and you're doing in all of the state and all the worthwhile states, you'll have a chance. You might go in two big horn sheep hunts before you die. Tw in Colorado and Arizonic you've gotta you know, you've got a decent chance to get a tag in Colorado if you're thirty years old, if you play their game, and uh in you know Nevada. You know, Nevada is a bit of a gamble, but like like Montana, they square your points. So if you stick with it long enough, you might have you know, you're gonna get to the point where you're having seven eight percent chance every year and hopefully, you know it happens before you're sixty. But but you know, the one thing in Arizona, antelope are antelope are just outrageous. You know, we just the genetics down here are just off the charts. So i'd have to put antelope right out there at the top two. Is that like a pretty quality hunt, like um the low pressure and it's it is, except for the fact, like we've already talked about the the you know, we call it gang hunting. You know, antelope are pretty visible, so they are susceptible to having about five or six guys out running around covering lots of country looking at bucks. Um, so it's not quite as remote as you'd like it to be, just because they're just too dog invisible. But to put a really beautiful lantimal on the wall arizon is tough to beat. It just impossible to beat. But uh in New Mexico is great for that as well. But Colorado, for Meal there is the one that's still a mystery to I say a mystery to me, it's not a mystery. There's a lot of great units, but that's the one state where guys really need to be focused on Meal there. I had one tag there. I had a tag there a couple years ago and twenty one, and I saw a buck there in the archery hunt. He was down on private. I never even had a chance to kill him, but this buck was I saw him for probably twenty seconds, but probably thirty three thirty four inches wide, had enough points that I couldn't even figure out exactly what was going on. But I mean definitely a buck that was north at just a monster in an area in a year that wasn't even that great. One's got a bit of reputation, but it's not it's it's over, it's it's definitely not what it used to be. But Colorado from Meal there would be and then uh, it's Unfortunately a lot of my dreams were revolved around meal there hunting. Can you know, can sittery and I haven't. I'm like you, I've never killed a big meal there, I mean a truly big buck. I'm gonna killed a couple of fun I care about getting a big one off, I know, and I've every I've had a great good tag in Nevada or a good tag in Wyoming and good tag in Colorado. I've had a couple of tags over my lifetime and I thought, this is it and it just doesn't happen. You know, it hasn't happened yet. But Nevada to thirty one for for Meal dere uh the Henry Mountains. Um, when you're not going to draw the Henry Mountain tag? Now, now that's a that's dream. That's another one where you just you're better off, you know, you're drawing a sheet tag before you draw that. Most likely you'll draw a sheet tag before you draw chances and hunt mule during Henry Mountains. Yeah, if you really want to hunt to Henry's, you need to go focus yet, go focus on focus on your career and buy an auction tag. It's probably you've got a better chance of you know, focusing on your career and making a bunch of money and go buy a tag than you do a drawing one. Do you put in for moose tags in the West? I put in Utah, you know, back when, back when Utah limited you to one limited entry species, I chose moose. You know, so I've got fifteen or eighteen points. But I was just looking at my odds back when the applications are doing. You know, I'm in that two percent range, you know, So so fifteen or eighteen years of applying, Yeah, for nonresident you're you're down there in the two percent range. But you know, you look at this stayed like, you know, like Idaho. You know, you and I've talked about Idaho. There's units there that you know your odds are eight or ten percent. That point I started getting like when I see something like that, like with the number of bonus points I have in Montana on mountain goats, I'm running in the eight nine percent. You would actually draw that thing, now, yeah, you know, yeah, that's why I put moose in Idaho is something that if guys are really want to do what you do, you know, because what they do in nonresidents. We have to choose between elk, You have to choose between moose, goat, and sheep. You can apply for one of those three. But if you apply for one of those three, then you can't apply for the limited entry deer, elk, and antalope tags. So the past couple of years I've been doing the deer, elk, and antalope tags, which I'm over three, so them in the same odds I used to one or the other. There it's one or the other. Well, you can also go hunt over the counter. You can hunt over the counter there for for for elk, and I think honestly, some of the most overlooked, you know, the most overlooked opportunity to entire west or over the counter units or over the counter or you know, one or zero points at one point, And is it for that reason you think that because some units are just the draw unit, and everybody's just focused there that the unit next door is like, yeah, those animals don't know, and nobody pays attention to them. And you look at the you know, the resources we have, you know the magazines. You know, they're all tout the big units, and everybody thinks the other units just have trash. I mean, I had an antalope tag in Wyoming this past year and we're running around looking for antal open. I stopped the truck and there was a point. It was about a hundred yards out, so I kind of walked out the point. I was looking over a huge vast area for just to see if I could find and he hurts antelope and I just happened to look down to see where the road was going to go down this ridge line, and I see a spot moving in the middle of road, and I throw my binoculars up and there's a mule deer walking down the road that I can tell from its body is enormous, and I could see it had antlers, but it was probably a mile away. So I run to my truck, grabbed my spotting scope, and I put my spotting scope up and they're standing one of the largest meal deer I've ever seen in my entire life. This sings like I told Kyle was with me. I said, Kyle, I said, I think this deer might be thirty eight inches And he's like, no way. So we go running too, and we go we drive down there, and he dove off into the canyon and we got to that spot and we we walked out and I'm looking way down the canyon thinking that deer's gotta be running. And meanwhile I see Kyle throw the camera and uh, and I'm looking, what's he filming? I look and there's a deer standing there thirty yards away and he wasn't thirty seven but he's thirty two thirty three wide tall, out in the middle of nowhere Antelope Country. And it couldn't find out. It's a totally it's a general unit. It's a general unit. And dear season ended two days before his bucks walking right down the middle of road. Now, I had right across the highway. I had one of their hardest to draw deer tags the year before. I mean it literally right across the highway from where this was. I never saw a deer of that caliber, not even close to that caliber during my hunt. And it took me eight years to draw that tag, and I could have drawn this one one year. You know, his favorite unit in Colorado, his favorite like mule deer unit. We were looking at hunting fool and I took a picture of their description of his unit, which is not a glowing I took a picture and texted it to him and he wrote back, I hope they never changed that. It was just like a base almost like that, Dad, I don't bother. I think you gotta get all of those resources to figure out where not to apply at times if you're gonna follow you know the strategy if I want to hunt every year. But so, I don't know if you really answered your question on those premier tags yet it was a good sense. And then what, um, what are the things like if people just want to go hunt all right? You just want to be like one of these years when it's when time is right, you just want to go out hunt the West, maybe get to go for two different species, you know it's your big chance. What are what are the states I tend to be like, I'll see what I tend to say in just based on friends and own experiences. I'm wanted, Like if you want to go and have where you can just like you're gonna see dear. You know you're not gonna get a big one, but you're going sea plane dear. There's plenty of plane tag opportunities, Like Montan is great for mu Elier, Like if you want to go and have a good on and see stuff. And I always point out that, um, Colorado's got a lot of elk tags, a lot of out no giants, but like you can go and have a solid hunt. Yeah, you know, Wyoming antelope. I think Wyoming antelope still one of the most underrated hunts in the West because they don't You're not gonna go see a bunch of huge bucks wud, You're gonna see a lot of antelope. There's you know, tags are easy to get. You can get dough tags, um. And it's still an adventure when you're in Wyoming. You're in the middle of nowhere no matter where you are, you know, I mean, wyom In's just at adventure. So i'd say woman antelope, Arizona cous deer, like we kind of already talked about um. I think is uh is still the most underrated big game species in the West. No one even knows what it is. I didn't know what one was. It's I thought people were screwing up and saying keys do you're like the white tails they got into Florida keys like cusire. I'm like, yeah, there's a little shipping things. When you're out fishing in Florida, there's not a there is nothing. There is not a single aspect of your game that you don't have to be extremely good at to hunt couster and to effectively hunt couster and you can draw it every year. Um, I mean, you've got to be in good shape. You've got to be able to shoot, you've got to be able to pack, you gotta be able to glass. I mean, it's uh, it's way it's just way underrated. Um. I think you know New Mexico Melder's kind of the same way. You know, you've got there's two A to B and two C up in the north central part of the state that everybody focuses on because that's all the one that's the only ones that magazines talk about. But New Mexico has got good genetics from top to bottom. Let me say good. I mean, you can you you can hope to shoot a hundred and fifty hundred and sixty in deer, you know, just a really good solid four point and probably not seen there as many people as you might on a Colorado hunt. Uh, Nevada, and Nevada has got great genetics. And every unit of the state, now there's some that are just absolutely no doubt better than others. But that's a difficult state to get a permit in though, right, well, some units are some units are. It is something you just a really easy. Now when I say easy, you can probably drawing one every second or third year. And uh and for a lot of people, you know, every two or three years about all that they can probably afford from a vacation standpoint. So drawing went every second or third years, you know, probably exactly what fits into their life schedule once they we haven't talked about it all. It's kind of funny. State with draws is like the Alaska set up, where there's a couple of things like like if you're a nonresident muscos, you have to draw. But it's funny because like every species there there's over to counter opportunities for and draw opportunities. In the draw opportunities tend not to be quality or abundance to animals. It tends to be the closer it is the highway system, the more of the chance it's a draw. So the best hunts in Alaska aren't the draw hunts necessarily, you know. It's just like when you see a drawing unit there, it just means like, yeah, you can drive to it. So we got a limit, you know, like hunting caribou on the Kenai. It's like it's accessible, so you gotta draw that. Meanwhile, you can go kill what the like a bang limit of ten caribou, you know, in the Western Brooks Range, And it's just like it's just a whole different system up there. You know. I still do the draws there because it's a handful of things, Like there's those elk I guess not experimental but introduced el kerds is drawn, the muscos is drawn. Only the best doll sheep units are drawn, not the best Yeah, maybe the best draw doll sheep units are drawn only. I kind of drew the best of the best with that silver spoon, going, yeah, I get to see I get my tags because they just want to see cand of perpetuate that the governor hand delivers of it. Yeah, they bringing his nail me whatever I want. But still the other thing I think that in most people have kind of figured this out, but I think it needs to be reiterated, is pick up a bow. I mean, just today's today's archery equipment, you know, and you've got most major cities anyways, you've got good pro shops. You can learn to shoot a boat pretty quick. Uh, you know, it takes a long time to get really proficient, but it's fun. And the opportunities for archers, you know, still the best in the West. You know, that's something I don't I wish we wouldn't have waited so long, you know, just a touch on that is there is just an unbelievable amount of archery opportunity, you know. And in Arizona in January you can come out and hunt deer over the counter in the middle of the rut. We've got haviling the tags that they have leftovers for every year, Kyloe seasons open, lion hunting's open. Uh, quail season, quail season and dove season are open. Basically it's got fur and feather. You know, there's a legal means of killing it, you know, and hunting it in Arizona in January and it's a beautiful time to be in the desert. But yeah, archery opportunities are still some of the most underutilized we're you know in the country. Of course, there's probably some bow hunters gonna send me a nasty gram for even promoting that. But what's interesting I read in easterns that one of those one of those uh issues you were just talking about today, um that in Colorado now the archery hunters are equaling the success rate of the rifle hunters for elk because because they're hunting in the run, so you can hear them, and so it's just that much easier to find them, you know, where the rifle hunter can't find them. And again with today's equipment, I mean, everybody's getting pretty good all season light is that like is the bow season way longer? Way longer? Yeah, it's a whole month best thing. Like in Montana, man would be like bow hunting there that season overly September six and September three sometimes and it would go you hunt, you get all of September, first couple of weeks of October, you know, all like the runs long and then it's just you just go and go. You get sick of going, you know, you can wear yourself out. It was like it's like it's like, oh man, another weekend, you know. I mean that you're like you realize you hunted you bowl hunted out seven weekends in the row now, I mean it's a lot of hunting. You can get off a bowl. Yeah, but you know, you see most archers, uh you know, they're definitely at high level, high level of skill set. Group of guys, the ones that are true archers. Did you see I've never met a good archer that didn't shoot a rifle. Well, oh yeah, it's just there. You know, that's a that's a definitely a The guys that are serious about it or a click above them, if they had an opportunity with a rifle, would take that. Also, you know, it's not like the die hard archers and I'm thinking of these, you're just guys that wanted an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah. My brother, as far as the bow hunting gun hunting thing goes, yeah, he just has this very like this internal battle all the time where he doesn't like, uh, he doesn't feel good to shoot something with a rifle. He's a bowl hunter, you know what I mean. But at the same time it just doesn't mean anything to him. You know. He says, like a harvest for me, like to shoot some of my rifles like a harvest. It's like, I'm just shooting me, you know, for the freezer um. But at the same time he has this like hatred for his bone, which he actually loves because the efficacy and wound loss is so much higher with a bone and arrow, so he's like, it feels so much better. But at the same time he goes, I almost hate myself for doing it, Like sometimes I have this weird thought that I wish that somehow I couldn't bow hunt anymore, so I didn't have to have the struggle of it, like I love it. But then he just had to live with this fact that you're gonna have a higher radar wound loss, you know, like the efficacy of a rifle is just in the right hands, you know, the efficacy of a rifle is great, and there's just so much room for air on bows, and they factor that stuff in, man, you know, they factor that stuff. And when it said when they allocate tags, you know, and they they're definitely gonna move Eventually, these game official departments are gonna understand that the success rate with this archery equipment, in the level and quality of these hunters is dramatically different than it was ten years. There's just no question. But I watched. I don't consider myself an archer. Uh, you know, I utilize the archers to get a system, to get a permit, and uh, I'm always amazed at how effective they are as a there's a tool, if you know, if everything goes right in the right hands. But when you look at a rifle hunter, I mean, there's no hardly in the excuse to make a mistake with it still happens, You're honest. And now we're having this conversation earlier, we're trying to find a way like many editors, and and I know, Chris, you have is like a thing that everybody asked now is like what is it too what shots too far? What's too far? With a rifle? You can't define it. Like I got a friend who teaches, and when having this conversation, I was pointing out, I got a friend who is an instructor. He's a Marine Corps sniper and a sniper instructor. I'm not gonna go say to him, what's too far for him to shoot? Because he is gonna at six hundred yards, he's gonna call his shot better than I'm going to call it two hundred yards. It's all about the conference. So it winds up being like it's so hard to define because you have to like I've struggled with the definition, and the best I've come up with is it's too far when there's a question in your mind about whether you're going to hit it where you want to or not. And I used to when I first started hunting the West, particularly hunting anilope, we would shoot an animal basically to see if you'd hit it, you know, And I now realize that that is even though it wasn't that far, it was three I remember my brother shooting an animal that we paced off at three nine yards when we first moved to Montana, and it was there's no worry, your mission, you can go and see three yards. It was unfammibled to me. You know, they did it, and now I think like a three ys when the conditions are right, you know where that thing is going. But when we were shooting so at that time, three yards was too far because if it wasn't, we shouldn't have been surprised when an animal tipped over. There should be no element of holy how you hit it? Yeah, you know when whenever you had the thought rendsty your mind that I'm going to shoot at that animal instead of shoot that animal. Yeah, you know, you know you're making a mistake. You know, it's just in the animals deserved more than that. We all taken our share of stupid shots. Yeah, And I'm not saying not even done doing it, because it's just you get caught up in the moment rights and you know, get excited. But yeah, I think that's it. I watched so much. But we were right in the middle of the long range stuff ten fifteen years ago. We ended up there accidentally. We were developing a rifle that had a a zero was in the kill zone from the muzzle to five hundred yards, and it was at sight. And explain what you mean by that, Well, you want to be able to look at an animal from zero to five hundred yards and not need to know the range because the rifles seem so flat. You know, you hold right if it's way out there, you're gonna hold right level with the top of its back. If it's closed, you might duck down a little bit and be down on the lower section of the animal, but you never had to come off of the animal. Uh. That's another point. When you see people holding off of an animal, you're you're shooting at it, you aren't shooting it. And uh, and we ended up in that. And I watched some in my skill shoot. My ability to shoot dramatically improved when from being able to shoot things at two and three hundred yards to seven and eight hundred yards. And I shot a few animals at those distances, but they were under super controlled situations. And I bet I passed dozens of animals that I didn't shoot at those distances because everything wasn't right. And what you see now is you see people that are just shooting it stuff at long range, you know, and that you know, the animals deserve a better deal of that. I mean, we were we older more than that. Yeah, I think it's almost a line where you ask yourself, am I just am I shooting this animal? Or am I hunting this animal? You know, you reach a point where, yeah, I can shoot that far, but I an't even actually I'm not actually hunting right now, I'm just literally just shooting, you know, when you see you know, and you see it all too often now people, you know, elk at eight hundred nine hundred thousand yards. You can't honestly tell me you're hunting an elk a thousand yards. You're not hunting him, You're just shooting him, you know. And it's still you know, it still doesn't answer the question how farst too far? You know? But no, if it's it's a it's like an impossible question. It wasn't something that people who're talking about before. I think what what brought it up was? I guess the range finders. Right range finders changed the whole game, you know, it just it changed everything now, you know, with the rifles we have, you know, the the you know, a rifle can put you know something, you know, a really good shooting rifle put you know, a bullet and an Adian circle at a thousand yards, you know, with a competent shooter, you know, and of course controlled scenario, you know, a known scenario with wind and everything else that's going on. And I don't want to trivialize this stuff either, because it's difficult. It's not like anybody's gonna pick up and shoot eight. And I mean, it's just there's a lot of technical skill involved in shooting that kind of stuff and control, a huge amount of guesswork. And mean, Floyd and I went up to and I don't know if you've been to the Vortex Extreme Challenge yet you've done that in Utah, would like you need to go up and watch that sometime. It's pretty interesting. Just like hearing people talking about, oh, it's it's insane. Somebody probably the finest group of Western marksmen who are also hunters in ever. You know, they're all right there at that shoot and they're shooting at known distances. Most of the guys have shot that course before, so they're you know, what the winds are kind of doing in those different canyons. And still the winners are not going to shoot. They're shooting between you know, three hundred and nine hundred thousand yards and they're not going to get hits to win, you know, So they're doing an under a scenario where they're they're they're exercising because it's all part of the courses. You're hiking a lot, so you're a little bit tired. But there's you don't have an adrenaline rush. You know, it's not like he's not getting away. He's gonna stand targets, gonna stand there perfectly broadside, you know, until you pull the trigger. Yet we're still not getting hits. But when you see it, you know, when you see stuff on on YouTube and TV shows and DVDs with you know the guys never miss you know, nobody ever misses. We know that's not true, not showing the part where he's hitting and the guy's calling the bullet flowing any of joustin shoots and calls the bullet and any hits, and like there's a gold at those distances. Those animals they don't even know. They don't hear the shot half the time, you know, unless you just blow up a rock right at its toes. They rarely get scared off, you know, when you're shooting at them. But to bring a full circle um with with technology creep and the inevitable rise and efficacy on hunter parts, fish and game agencies are gonna adjust and and they have a couple of tools at their disposal, Shorter seasons, fewer tags or moving seasons to less opportune hunting times, all of which mean that because of the things we're talking about, you need to pay attention to and learn how to play the tag game, because like it or not, it's coming to you. It's coming to a woods near you, all right, guys, thank you very much, Thank you for listening. H