00:00:01 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Foundation's podcast. I'm your host Tony Peterson, and today I'm chatting with my good buddy Josh Miller, owner of Riverstone Kennels and all around badass dog trainer. Look, this is a fun one for me. Josh is a great dude who has been a dog trainer for a long time now. I have to say I just love his approach. He's realistic about dogs and their abilities, while still asking a lot out of them and holding them accountable. He's also just fair and entirely focused on the long game development of sporting dogs. In this episode, we get into all kinds of topics, including managing old hunting dogs, developing dual purpose hunting dogs, and just learning to take a slow and steady approach to ensure that our sporting dogs can reach their full potential. So buckle up because he drops a ton of killer info on this one. Josh Miller, it's good to see you, buddy YouTube by. 00:01:00 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on. 00:01:01 Speaker 1: Uh, you're one of my favorite people to talk to in the industry. You know, you and I have known each other uh pretty long now, I mean I think we probably met when you were like early young twenties. Uh, you've been You've been going hard with Riverstone Kennel's. Your wife's out there, we helping puppies like crazy. I see you getting the kids involved. You're a busy fella and I know that. Uh, so thank you for coming on. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. 00:01:27 Speaker 3: Yeah, man, likewise, you know, it's funny that you say that, because I was actually thinking about that before jumping on here. Now we've known each other for a long time and just kind of the growth that we both had during that time, and you know, the kind of the path that they've you know, taken, and how we've taken those paths. But one thing that I do really love about this industry is like your friendships like you and I have, you know, like you know, the the growth that we've had, and you're still you know, I could not talk to you for eight months and you know, call you up and we talked like we you know, just talked yesterday. So uh, it's been fun man, It's fun you seeing you doing this show. And he's done so great in the past with the other shows, so you haven't excited to be on here. 00:02:06 Speaker 1: So I was I was thinking about that, because I think the first our first point of contact was at game fair here in the in the Twin Cities. I'm sure that's where we met first. But I remember interviewing you for a gun Dog magazine article. I mean probably like ten years ago now, nine, ten years ago on Chad Antler's and I remember thinking, like, this guy, this guy not only knows his shit, he's probably gonna be here a while, like, because you know how it is, like, sometimes sometimes you bump across people who are kind of like a rising star and for whatever reason, usually because the business side drags them down. You know, they like the they like a little bit of a recognition and being sort of known as like a flashy new trainer or whatever. But the people who can't manage the business side of things usually get flushed out pretty quick. But you're still here, You're still crushing it. 00:02:55 Speaker 3: Uh. 00:02:56 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about dual purpose dogs upland dogs that also do waterfall vice versa. But also just what dogs are capable of because you do a lot of different stuff with dogs. You train a lot of different ways, you're involved in a lot of different things. But before we get into that, I saw a post you guys put up over there on Instagram where you had an eleven and a half year old lab yellow lab, I think out in North Dakota. I think it had a sharpie in its mouth, sharp tail. You took an eleven and a half year old dog out there and hunted with it? How did that go? 00:03:36 Speaker 3: Yeah? So it was actually probably a hen Mallard is probably what it was. Yeah, because we didn't do any elkland hunting. But man, like, I'll tell you what so I have I'm in for a lot of heartbreak. My family's in for a lot of heartbreak here in the next few years because I've got I have two setters. That one is fourteen and you know, she currently has cancer, so she's you know, she's unfortunately on her final you know, a few probably days here. I have my other setter who is twelve and a half. He he has a heart murmur and you he kind of have some health issues. And then I've got you know, Clyde, who who's the dog you're talking about there. 00:04:18 Speaker 2: He's a Yello Lab. 00:04:19 Speaker 3: He's been a part of our breeding program, you know, for a long time. Uh, he's yeah, he's eleven and a half. And I've got Brock who's one of our other he's probably the most well known lab. So we have the breeding program. He's ten and a half. And so you just kind of started going down the line. You're like, oh my gosh, like this is you know, you know what's coming right, Like you know, I always tell people like, you know, you sign up for this day, you sign up for that day when you pick up any dog, or you'll bring a dog in your family, And honestly, I just feel blessed that you know, we've got you know, between those four dogs, we have four very full lights, you know that we've lived. And so I am very grateful for that. But it does it changes a lot of things, you know. So like that dog you're talking about there, there's a reason he went out to North Dakota for opener, right, So I'm always trying to find where the easiest hunts, you know. So for a dog like that, like he's still very happy and very active, but he's to a point that you know, his heart wants to say yes, yes, yes, but sometimes the legs don't always agree with that, or you know, the needs don't always agree with that. So so I do manage Uh, you know, both he and Brock a little differently. Like those two man they've traveled the country with me. They've been up in Canada, they've done all these places, and they've done everything from you know, you know breaking ice to you know big water to you know, big field set ups, blood the field set ups, you have the whole nine yards. But now at this point, it was both of them where their hard is saying yes and their legs aren't saying no. I'm trying to put them in the position where they don't have to you'll really fight the legs saying no. Right, So I'm trying to find, you know, the easiest hunts they can so generally speaking, you know, an opener hunt like what we're talking about here in North Dakota this last week. That's about as easy hunt I could I could come up with. Because I always say, when I go to the Dakota's, if I don't have to pack waiters, I'm not packing waits. So I love dry field hunting and I want to be you know, you know, early season, it's a lot of stubble fields. Uh, but it's my goodness, such easy setups for these dogs, right, those stubble fields are great little setups, you know, for the dogs. 00:06:21 Speaker 2: They're not fighting water, they're not fighting muck, you know. 00:06:24 Speaker 3: There we can set them up in a place that is just easy on them body wise. And then I just have to be smart, right, So, like I'm not going to line him up on two hundred and fifty hour blind and even attempt it, right because like for him, especially, the one thing I'm fighting with him is he's he's losing his hearing, and so it was it was interesting, is that he can hear certain things really well. So like a lot of times, what I'll do on our Riverstone Kennel's social pages is I'll do stories on our hunts and kind of you show people and kind of bring them into I oftentimes don't even pull the trigger. 00:06:55 Speaker 2: I'm just kind of running my phone and doing the videos. 00:06:57 Speaker 3: I really want to show these hunts from a dog centric side, you know, because for me, that's why I'm there. Like, I mean, shoot, I think I waterfall hundred ninety two days last year, and I don't think I went through a full case of show. Yeah, I just like I love being out there with the dogs. I love being being present with them, and you know, so I'm always trying to tell the story through the dogs, you'll len, So I'm always trying to show that side of it. But you know, as people saw in that story, and there were times that you know, boom, boom, boom, you know, birds fall, and I kind of pan over to Clyde and I'm like, Clyde, you just send him, and he doesn't move. I'm like, Clyde, he doesn't move. Clyde, he doesn't move. And then finally like, I don't know if he was a pitch. I don't know if he you know, just he heard it and boom, he's gone. But then the whistle, if I had a whistle stop him, I'd both a whistle and his boom. 00:07:41 Speaker 2: He's right there. 00:07:41 Speaker 3: He turned around, he's looking for a cast, so you could obviously hear the whistle really well. And so that's why I'm saying, like, I'm not even gonna attempt running a big blind with him, because what if he can't hear me? What if he gets you know, so for me, handling changes, right, So I just have to put him in these situations to succeed. 00:07:57 Speaker 2: And uh, and I'll tell you what, man like it. 00:08:01 Speaker 3: It makes you appreciate things differently, you know, like I think we all go through those early dog phases where naturally there's gonna be the frustration of basically you have, you know, a freshman, you know, trying to play on the varsity team, like he's not really ready for it yet. There's a lot to learn, there's a lot to take in, and then you kind of get to the point that hey, like you know, now you've got the starter on the team, right, like the prime and then you get to this phase and you know the reality is that for me, like I I just and this is where I encourage people, you know to kind of go with the flow of your dog, Like if you're there for the dog, you'll be conscious of that, Like, don't be put in your old dog any big difficult hunts to where you know it's gonna it's gonna hurt, it's gonna. 00:08:43 Speaker 2: You know, be you know, very difficult. It's gonna you set them up for failure. You know. 00:08:47 Speaker 3: For me, that's where I just really try a cherry pick you know, those uh, those hunts, and then too then afterwards, right the recovery, like I make sure that I have you know, I have the proper medst at home to where when we come back, I don't wanted to be sore the next day. I handle him differently too, Like a lot of times when we're traveling, especially in North Dakota, you know, I bring a couple of crates, and you know my dogs, when they're not hunting, they'll be in those crates, and of course they take them for a walk and exercise, of course, but you know they're in those crates. Well, not for him, right especially after he goes to he runs a bunch. I'm not going to have him, you know, lay in a crate where he's gonna get stiff, he's going to have a hard time. So it's definitely different. But I'll tell you what, man like, I just think if you if you can put your ego aside and you can really do the hunt for the dog. I think there's so much to appreciate Aboth, you know, just this. Appreciate the gray hairs, Appreciate the experience. Appreciate that here he is at eleven and a half years old and he wants to be nowhere else and right there. 00:09:44 Speaker 2: I mean that that's just it's special. 00:09:46 Speaker 1: But what are you using so recovery wise? Because that's a big issue. You know, my my older lab is twelve and a half now, so she is definitely I mean, she's she's as retired as she's ever going to be. I might take her out and do a small walk her duck thing with her. Yet like I'm I'm kind of looking at that because I could get her to walk one hundred yards to this pond and sit next to me and that that would be it. Right, But what are what are you using like when you when you bring a dog like that home after it's it's done, you know that hunt North Dakota whatever, Like, what are you giving it to help with the quality of life? 00:10:21 Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, so one, I think feeding a proper nutrition is very very important, and I think there's a couple your brands out there that do a really good job at eating or at providing a very premium food. You know, it's just like an athlete, right like you don't see you know, any of these your you know, big athletes, you know they're not you know, driving through and filling up on McDonald's on the way home from practice every day, right like you're fueling the right way is a really big part of this. You know, but then like especially to all that that like, yeah, I'm bringing you some meds like rimadol or car profit which is very similar, and yeah, I'm having that on hand to where it's basically like a call like an advil or an ibuprofen, you know, for these dogs, to where like for Clyde, like he is gonna be sore. There's just no doubt about it. He's going to be sore. So what what can I do to help him manage that? Because to me, that's the difference of you know, him getting one hunt in on this trip or maybe you know two or three. I'm also not hunting him back to back days, just wearing him out. And one, you know, one thing I should clarify too is you know, because you had mentioned Tony, you had mentioned that you want to do maybe a small water hunt you with your older dog. 00:11:29 Speaker 2: Some dogs. 00:11:30 Speaker 3: The water hunt is the easy hunt, right, especially if it's the right water for Clyde. So Clyde had an injury when he was probably you know, six, and he really jammed his shoulder really bad. And now he's good now, but he does get really sore on the shoulder. And one thing that my bet said was that you know, swimming is actually going to be more difficult for him because that's swimming motion. 00:11:52 Speaker 2: It's gonna be it's gonna hurt him more. 00:11:54 Speaker 3: You can see it, like he still does water work, Uh, but he doesn't want to do it like he used to, right, so you can hell he knows that. So for me, that's where I go, Okay, what is your easy hunt? Well, your easy hunt to stay out of the water right where you know, like your dog doing it like your dog might be. The easy hunt might be in the water because it's not the pounding on the body right. So to me, it's all about find what your hunt it. I really think, you know, waterfall hunts, especially for these older dogs, it's so much easier than even going on on a half hour to an hour you know long upland walk you know, just naturally right, It's just it's less wear and tear. They're still out there, they're still doing everything they want to do, you know, but instead of an hour long run, you're you're doing you know, six to ten, you know, thirty second you know, sprints if you will, you know, So it's just easier on them. 00:12:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I mean, that's a really good point because my dog responds the best now to swimming. If if she spends any any amount of time running around, even in you know, working a little bit of fun, retrieves in a soccer field or something, I can tell she needs to recover from that. And she she does as well from swimming too, but she seems to respond more positively from that, And so that's that's a really good point. How did your dog? How did your dog do that shoulder injury? What did that come from? 00:13:14 Speaker 3: You know, I can't remember exactly what it was now because I don't think it was anything that was like boom, there was injury eyes all of a sudden one day, he just was like really favorite of that one shoulder. And one thing I think is so neat is like when you get a really good vet, like one that is so sporting dog specific, especially, that's when they can really dial and tell you those types of things. Because it probably would have taken me a significant amount of time to realize, well, the swimming is harder on him right, Well, because my vet is sporting dogs specific and knows that's what I do. You know, she was able to say, hey, just you know know, going into this, this is going to be more difficult for him. So for me, I'm always looking for how can I get the most out of him. Well, if swimming hurts him, I'm not going to force him to be back in there swimming in the water. I can run a similar type of concept on land and make it to where it's not discomforting for him. Now. Of course there are times like when it's hot in the summer, right, Like I still want to do even if it's little water work. But then for me, especially being older, right, but even you know, even after that injury, it's like, well, I'm not really going to push you and force you through anything that's super technical or studio because you know you're gonna be fighting a pain or discomfort too. So to me, you know, I'm always looking at that per dog, right, So every dog is going to be different with that, you know. 00:14:31 Speaker 2: Brock case of Brock. I really wanted this to be that. 00:14:34 Speaker 3: It was my two old dogs that I took out there, So I was planning on being out there for about six seven days. And I'm really really big on scouting, So I love duck hunting in particular, I love waterfall hunting in general, but I love Duck, and I just really enjoy the process. Right, So I would rather spend two days scouting and one day hunting, spend two more days scouting one day hunting, rather than right up, you hunt every morning, scout every afternoon and just try to get a bunch of hunting, like I wanted to be really successful. I think the dogs you enjoy it more. I think we enjoy more. And then too, like instead of getting you know, two to three birds on hunt, you know, we can shoot five sixed man limit, and you know, the dogs get more work. And I just think for me, I enjoy that part, but I really enjoyed this cutting process too. And uh so my plan was if we're out there for you know, seven days and can get you know, four hunts in, well, then each of the dogs are gonna get two. And so Brock again he's ten and a half. He had I was really nervous that he did something to his acl because he was really favored in his back right leg really bad. And so we brought him in it and they think he just tweaked his groin. So of course still not going to bring him. Still need time, you know, to recover, and of course your recovery time at ten and a half is not what it would have been at you know, two and a half. And uh so unfortunately he didn't get to go. But but now for me, now, my objective now is Okay, where's that next easy hunt? Right where the next easy hunt that I can can get brought into and then Clyde like, man, it's a heart heartbreaking thing to think about. 00:16:06 Speaker 2: But it's like any one of these hunts could be the last one. 00:16:09 Speaker 3: And I promise you, man, that is in the forefront of my mind every single time I send them Murray treat But especially when I'm like wandering down towards the end of a hunt. Man, it's like you just don't know, you don't know if it's the last one, and you know it's it's I'm just glad that I'm at an age now where I feel like I can appreciate that. I feel like when I was you know, when I lost Ethan, Yeah, I was gosh, I probably laid twenties and I think I understood it, But I don't think I understood like I understand it now. You know, It's just it's you know, you just go through your life and you you have these experiences and you realize that every single time, every time you say that name, which could be the last time. 00:16:51 Speaker 2: And that's that's pretty heavy. 00:16:53 Speaker 1: Oh buddy, I know, man, dealing with this, with having Luna b twelve and a half is just tough. I mean it's but like you said, I you know, my last dog died at six. That was a disaster, this dog. And you know, I talked to Doc about it a lot, especially when I was getting getting Luna. It's like at a certain point you realize you've you've done so much with these dogs, you know, like I think about my big regrets with my last one. We're like, I just didn't get to do a whole bunch of stuff. You know, when your dog dies at you know, prime age, you're like, we didn't go here, we didn't do this, We could have done this more, and it really sucks. But when you when you take care of them and you manage them like you're talking about. I mean, Luna hunted a little bit last year, but two years ago I had her out pheasant hunting and still doing the stuff that she loves. Shot some grouse and ducks and woodcock with her. And I look back at her life with me, and I'm like, man, that dog we did a lot. We did a lot of shed hunting, we did a lot of waterfall hunting, a ton of upland, and I'm like, she lived a good life. And so now it's just a matter of like, is there any little opportunity to kind of squeeze it in for her or do something that's still good for But the overall theme that you talked about there where like it's in the back of your mind that you send that dog out, and it's like this could be the last one ever with this dog that never that doesn't go away. Think about it all the time, Like I mean, this is like morbid to joke about. But I come home sometimes and you know, if Luna's sitting or sleeping in you know, on her dog bed in our bedroom. You know, she's not meeting me at the door like the pupp is. You know, Sadie's there waiting, tail going nuts. And every time I walk in, I'm like, God, I hope she's still alive, you know, because it's like she's not there like there like she was. And you know, then I'll hear her clombing down the hallway and you're like, Okay, well we got one more day. But just knowing it's coming sucks so much. 00:18:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, man, I think the hardest part for me is yeah, and unfortunately most of us have to make the decisions, right, Like yeah, I cannot tell you, man, how many times I prayed, please just let me wake up, and and it was peaceful in the sleep, and you know, and you know, unfortunate and and every situation is just different, right like I can, like, like I said earlier, like talking about your six year old dog, man, like obviously through the years now with how many clients and how many dollars have trained and how many you puppy clients, you know, we've had, and you know, there's freak accidents and there's things that happen and and yeah, I mean you just you just feel for that. And one thing that that's really interesting is like, you know, my first dog that I lost, I was filled with so much regret, man, Like I I was like, gosh, I didn't I didn't you know, he never he never went to Canada, he never went to Arkansas. I never went to all these things, which, of course now now is a norm for my dollars, you know, and but he didn't know that, you know, like he was just he was just happy to go. You know, he was happy to go on a little pond hunting in Wisconsin with me and shoot two wood ducks. 00:19:55 Speaker 2: You know, like he just thought, yeah. 00:19:56 Speaker 3: And so to me, it's so interesting because like I have those conversations with people, Yeah, fairly often. It happens more and more all the time, because you know, the longer that you're in the game, the more you know dogs and people that you're able to connect with and be a part of their life. 00:20:10 Speaker 2: You know, they move on, and it's. 00:20:13 Speaker 3: Just so interesting, Like you know, there's there I think there's always gonna be that regret of if you didn't get to do something, you know with that dog. And but man, like we look at all the all the things you did get to do with them, right, and like some of them, some of us just situational. Like my first dog, Matt I had in high school and in college, I couldn't afford gas to go to the trip, let alone actually go on the hunting trip, right, So like, yeah, if he just had me in a time of my life where or that wasn't a thing, And so I do the more and more. It's just to me, it's just like, man, I just want every one of these dogs to get the most out of their life or out of their time with me. And you know, fortunately enough, you know I have a profession where I can do that. But man, like that that decision, to me is that's the worst day, you know, you having to make that, because you're always going to have like was it the right time? 00:21:02 Speaker 2: Was it the young and uh? 00:21:04 Speaker 3: But then again again, like you wouldn't get a puppy and sign up for that day all over again if that ride wasn't worth having to make that decision, right. 00:21:14 Speaker 1: You You mentioned way earlier about you know, handling your your older dogs, and the first thing you said was proper nutrition. That's that's something that sort of gets thrown around a lot. But an easy way to frame this up, like, given the context of this conversation is there have been pretty comprehensive studies on the how long dogs can live, right, and how long the average dog will live, and an overweight dog is on average going to die two years younger than it then a dog that's kept in really good shape. And so when you think about. 00:21:45 Speaker 3: And that's just life, right, that's not like athletic life. That's not like you know, no injuries, no all that stuff. And you're right, man, like a lot of dogs are just overweight, right. 00:21:56 Speaker 1: And that's this is a I mean, this topic comes up a lot on this podcasts and other ones, and I know people are sick of hearing it, but the reality is like, oftentimes we aren't the best judge of our dog's physical fitness, right, you know, like we're so biased. The same thing you know you talked about, like your your dog with the shoulder injury will swim, and it would swim every single time you asked it to because that's what they do. But it's up to you to decide whether that's a good thing to do for that dog or not. And you have to you have to step outside the ego a little bit and go, no matter how much I want that, and no matter how much he'll do that, that's not the best thing for him. It's the same thing, you know, like if you if you take that dog into the vet and it's seven pounds heavier than it was last year and it's you know, yearly check up or whatever, your Vet's like, hey, this this dog could be could drop you know, ten or twenty percent. That's in the interest of the dog's health. Like, it's not a reflection on you, like make those changes, you know, like cut down on the treats, whatever you have to do, cut down on the daily feed, which is the easiest way to cut their weight, right, like manage their intake. But the endgame, the end goal of that is you know, potentially going to be a couple extra years of that dog being with you. That's a huge deal. 00:23:16 Speaker 2: It's a huge deal. 00:23:17 Speaker 3: And this is again why I really love sporting dogs specific bets, right because let's reality is majority people listen to this are looking at the dogs as athletes and as gun dogs, right, Like, even if they're not. 00:23:30 Speaker 2: A lot of this still applies. 00:23:32 Speaker 3: I've said to me, all the still flies, right because a sporting dog bet is just going to be a little more you know cruise line, like not having the dog overweight, because they understand not only the risk of injury, but feel worse. Right like North or South Dakota opener, I think for pheasants is this weekend, isn't it? Yep? I mean like going in there, like the number of dogs, think of the number of dogs that are overweight, have been sitting on the couch for the last eight months, and then they're going to go be asked to run a marathon. Like it's actually crazy and this is where to me, not to you know, totally go on a soapbox, but like to me, you know, we all humanize our dogs to a point. I think, you know, every one of us can say we're guilty of that, right, some more than others, of course, but I think all of us are guilty of that. But I think what's interesting is that I've said this a lot. I really think that people humanize their dogs until it's no longer convenient to humanizing them. Right, So, like that situation right there, you would never ask a thirty year old man that has been sitting not doing a single workout, a single anything, you know, sitting on the couch, over wage, you know, and then be like, hey, you're gonna go run a marathon for four days in a row while we're out here on this hunt. Like you wouldn't ask that, right, but you know, of our dog, we would do it. And you know, and we had a client a few years ago, uh and she's super nice and we've since had like this dog it turned out to be really, really nice. But I remember the first time she came in with her husband and the dog was overh And I'm very open about that, I get, I feel, like, respectfully but very open about because like, for me, if I'm going to have your dog for three four months and have the dog in train, the dog has to be at the mental peak of what it can be to get the most out of this time. Well, to be at the mental peak, you have to be at the physical peak. Like there's no there's no personal animal that has ever been physically out of shape and mentally just been like at the epitome right like they do. They do work hand in hand and so my like the first thing I told them, I was like, guys, like, I'm gonna have to cut some weight out this dog. I mean, it's just it looked like a beer keg with legs. I mean, it was just it was so out of shape. And yeah, and you know, she didn't like it at first, and she's like, she's like, yo, I want my dogs fat and happy. And I said, man, with all due respect, those tours and not go hand in hand. 00:25:49 Speaker 2: They don't. 00:25:49 Speaker 3: They don't belong in the same sentence noge, you know, because and the same with people right like like you just. 00:25:54 Speaker 2: There's there's a level of especially. 00:25:56 Speaker 3: Being an athlete, that you just have to be at a mental and physical condition for you to be able to perform at the highest level. And so you know, again, I think sporting dog vets do a great job being critical of Hey, this is where I think your dog should be versus where it is. And that's why I really push people, especially anyone that has a sporting dog, find yourself a sporting dog vet because you know, a lot of vests just the reality you think about the masses, right, the masses. If you're listening to this and you are a gun dog owner, a sporting dog owner that owns an athlete, you are the minority, you know, between you look at all the shitsuos and chua wahs and and you know your name a breed poodle right that is at home. That is just the family value. I have nothing against that. I think a part of the family is where a dog should be. I think it's a fantastic thing. But the vast majority of dogs out there are not being looked at as athletes. So the un average vest is going to see much more of them than they are of your athlete. And so for me, like if I have a sports injury, I want to go to a Dodger or a specialist that deals with those fourth injuries, right, And so to me, finding the right bet to have, I a would say have on your team because I do think it's a big deal. If there's an issue, I want to call somebody that I know is going to be familiar with what it is I'm talking about. It is a big deal. To me, it's a really big deal. 00:27:19 Speaker 1: I agree one hundred percent. I want to back up just one second, just to clarify this, because you mentioned that the Dakota's openers are coming up, but by the time this episode drops, they will have come and gone. So if anybody's listened to this in Panicy, that they hounded too early or anything, you didn't. That's the nature of recording podcasts, right, You're one hundred percent right. And one of the things I just want to touch on two things before we move on there. The overweight dog thing isn't just your dog could die two years earlier. You mentioned this or alluded to this. It's a quality of life issue. So when you think about the impact on the joints and how that dog can function later in life if it's you know, ten or twenty per sent overweight, which is not that much with a lot of dogs. You're talking five to ten pounds maybe, which is the easy thing to miss on your own dog, right. The difference in the joint health and some of the other things that can happen that can you might not notice when that dog's four, but could become an issue at seven versus ten. That that's a huge deal. There's a lot to it. The other thing that I just want to touch on quickly here that I one hundred percent agree with you on this is finding the right vet. I mean, I've I've interviewed tons of veterinarians for my job. Most of them lean into this world pretty hard, but some of them have come from academia, some of them come from outside. I've dealt with, you know, really good sporting dog vets with my personal dogs, and I've dealt with vets from the Twin Cities who are primarily dealing with those Shitsuos and chihuahuas that you're talking about, and the difference is huge, And I will never forget my dog. We have you know, and you know this where you live, we have really high exposure to ticks up here. You get the spring thing that you can kind of avoid to some extent, not I mean, you can't avoid it completely, but you can sort of mitigate it. But then we get that fall tick situation where if you're doing that gross woodcock thing and the and the temperatures are a little bit higher than normal in the beginning October, middle October, you can get you know, your dogs can pick up a ton of ticks. And one of the experiences I had with one of my past dogs was a vet who just didn't really consider tick exposure when my dog had some stuff going on. And my dogs are always treated, but there's like a there's a level of exposure there where they're going to pick up something over time, Like you can't avoid everything all the time with the over the countertick stuff. And it was a real eye opener to me because the next vet that we had had two labs that she trained, she hunted with, and she trained for a ton of different stuff. She would train them to go get laundry out of the laundry basket, like just give them jobs, and she was instantly When she started explaining that to me, I'm like, this is my person. Like I can tell because she's using this, she's thinking about this dog's mental health as well as its physical health. But how she handled potential tick born diseases and that kind of thing, she just viewed it through a different lens, you know. And when you think about the average house dog's going to pick up some ticks every year, not like our dogs. Right, like your dog getting injured doing something out there and wrenching its shoulder in a weird way, that is a thing that's going to happen to every sporting dog to some level, at some point in their life. They're going to have some kind of injury like that that might never happen to a house dog. And so there is just a difference. I want to talk I know that, And you mentioned this. You're super into waterfall hunting. You travel all over do this a lot, but you also upland hunt too. You train your dogs for chad antlers. You're one of the trainers out there who's looking at dogs like what can we do with them? Not just how do we train them for this thing or that thing, which is of course like a part of the job, but like, where else can we include them in our lives? Which I know is sort of the catalyst for a lot of the shed dog stuff back when that started coming on, and I know you looked at it that way, it's like, well, what else can I do with my dog? I'm out walking with them anyway in the woods, scouting deer in the winter or whatever. And now this thing comes out and you're like, Okay, well, now I have four more months of doing something with my dog where it has a job and there's a reward and there's a training aspect to it, and it's just level up the relationship. How how do you deal with because you understand the potential of dogs that way, and you can see that it could keep going, right, Like there's new things that are going to come out, We're going to do with our dogs, service dogs, whatever they do. But a lot of people seem to struggle with like a one pursuit dog or you know, like I just want an upland dog. I just want a dog that behaves well. And do you do you feel like a lot of the people you deal with and maybe it isn't so much with your your kennel because you have a lot of sporting dog people obviously, but it feels like people look at dogs and sort of box them in and go, if I could just get here, that would be good enough, and you're looking at it going they can do this, this, this and. 00:32:21 Speaker 2: This, yeah, yeah. 00:32:24 Speaker 3: I think the one thing that gets really overlooked is how talented these dogs are. Especially you get a dog from a good breeder that is doing it the right way to better the breed to you produce you know, even better you know, puppies than what they have, and you know that dog is going to be incredibly capable. 00:32:44 Speaker 2: The reality is that that dog is also going to be a product in their environment. 00:32:48 Speaker 3: Right, So if it gets brought into the house that you don't do anything with it, it's not going to turn out to be much, right, because that the dog is going to be a product of the environments you put them in. 00:32:59 Speaker 2: On the side, like. 00:33:00 Speaker 3: We've had littermates go home and somebody's like, hey, you know, this dog is going to be a family dog and to go to the t ball games gonna you know, basically I just wanted to be obedient, and you know, it might go to the game farm once or twice a year if I have time. And so I wanted to be a hunting dog to that extent, and then I've had you know, because people's life change all the time, right, And I have one specific, you know, one in mind that I'm kind of talking about. And then you know, that same littermate went to a home that originally that was the plan, and that the dad just got so wrapped up and in love with the training process that that dog went on the field trial and like what he was so wrapped up. He was run a hunt test, he's run trials, he's doing all stuff because he just loved it. Right, So, like you know, what you're saying is like that dog that the littermate is that did nothing but go to t ball games and you know, you know, go to the family reunion and just kind of be a part, probably had the same potential as this other dog did. 00:33:54 Speaker 2: Right, But the other dog, the littermate, was in a different environment. 00:33:57 Speaker 3: And so it's really interesting to me, you know what you can get out of these dogs? 00:34:01 Speaker 2: And you know, I love the developmental side. 00:34:05 Speaker 3: You know, I think you know that there's are steps you know to take if you really want. 00:34:10 Speaker 2: Like, so if somebody comes to me. 00:34:11 Speaker 3: And says, Hey, I'm gonna duck hunt and and or waterfall hunt and open hunt. 00:34:16 Speaker 2: I'm going to do bolt. I'm really big on getting. 00:34:19 Speaker 3: The waterfall side dialed in first, you know, because to me, from a waterfall side of things, the number one thing that any waterfall dog needs to do is be steady. I believe, quite frankly, that's more important than going and getting and you know, picking up. 00:34:34 Speaker 2: The burden and doing the retreat. 00:34:36 Speaker 3: I get it, Like you know, someone could take a shot of that comment and say, oh, that's why they're there. 00:34:39 Speaker 2: I get that. 00:34:40 Speaker 3: But if your dog is being put in a dangerous situation because they're breaking and getting ot in front those gun barrels while they're going off, you know, to me, one they're not going to be nearly be as successful. And two, what's the point if if you're going to go home without the dog potentially right, because we all hear the horror stories of the dog getting shot, and so for me, I want you to be steady. It's very difficult for that especially young dog that's doing both right. And generally speaking, if the dog was going to do both, he's likely going to upland hunt more often the waterfall hunt because there's more opportunity to write. 00:35:12 Speaker 2: Anybody can go. 00:35:13 Speaker 3: Down to the hunt club or go down to the game farm on a Sunday afternoon and you know, put out five six birds and go do it right to actually go and set up for a waterfall hunt, to scout and have the spot that set the decos, and it just takes more. Right. So what we find is that they're gonna up with hunt probably three to one if you're doing both well. 00:35:29 Speaker 2: If three times in a. 00:35:30 Speaker 3: Row your young dog is go, go go working in front of you, you know, up and hunting, and then all of a sudden you're like, hey, you're supposed to sit here and be quiet and fill and call them for you know, the next four hours. 00:35:40 Speaker 2: You know, that young dog's gonna be going what in the world are you? You know, what are we. 00:35:43 Speaker 3: Doing here right where? What we find is that if you do the waterfall side first, make him be steady, make him you know, just you know, defens times in that waterfall situation, you know, and have him be a duck dog first, then you can always loosen the reins and have him go up on hunt, right, But to have him go up on hunt and then kind of rain in this fire breathe and draggon that wants to go, it's much more difficult. And that's where you get the dog that maybe starts whining. Maybe he's anxious, maybe he's not want to sit still, maybe because he doesn't understand what it is that we're doing here versus if you did that first. So generally speaking, that's that's what I like to do, is is take that process. And I'm a very uh progressional guy, like I want I want to watch the process. I want to develop them the right way. You know. One thing that I do with my dog, because I think it is incredibly beneficial, is. 00:36:28 Speaker 2: H I do. 00:36:28 Speaker 3: You know, I'm a sports guy, so I like sports analogies. I do a thing that I call a red shirt my young dogs. So from a duck dog standpoint, I bring them up. You know, now they're they're training right, so not maybe not fully trained. Like I never want to hunt personally, I never want to hunt one of my dogs until they're fully trained, because you start bringing them on hunts, everything's out uncontrolled, uncontrolled situations, uncontrolled you know, uh, you know, things come up to where all of a sudden you can create how bad habit is created. And if you're not fully trained, it's gonna be much more difficult for a dogs to be able to handle that situation. And you're gonna these unnecessary hurdles in front of you. So instead, what I'll do is I'll bring that young dog out again, waterfall situation. I'll bring that young dog out with one of my seasoned dogs, and I'll just make them sit there and watch. And what this is doing is a couple of things. One, it's allowing them to get out and still experience this stuff even though they're not fully trained yet, even though I don't want them out there to potentially creating a bad habit. 00:37:21 Speaker 2: They're learning to sit and be desensitized. 00:37:23 Speaker 3: All the things that we can train for, right, we can train for, you know, thirty millers dipping around around and around around on top of us. We can't train for, Hey, let these four honkers land because there's foury coming behind them. They're going to sit down ten feet in front of it. You know this with this dog. So what happens is that that young dog goes out first, right, and they start going that first time. They have no idea what's going on, and then all of a sudden, there's the excitement in the blind. Then there's quackroa quack on the call. Then there's somebody said get them and boom bom boom boom boom, and then I got sent. Well that young dogs starts coming backwards really quickly, right, so they start going, well, last time there's boom boom boom, I got to go. Or last time that I heard calling, something was gonna happen. So now I'm gonna get anxious. Now I'm going to get worked up. Or if they have a season of sitting there being desensitized all that, that year two when you actually go for you know, call it your year one hunt, that dog is rock steady solid or rock steady, rock solid steady, rather they beat that they've been desensitized of the whole thing. They're not going to be like that dog that's ripping down. You're wanting to break, wanting to be on top of them. And I just think like that on the on the you know called on the job training, right, like we're training, we're just doing it in a honey environment now. And you know, for me again, I just the safety side of it is so crucially important like my dogs. You have to be steady, you have to be and so I love that red stist side of it. And then they sister and honors, you know, the older dog, and I love that and uh and I do think that it helps them reach you know, their quote unquote prime faster because then year two you don't have bad habits you're trying to reel back and try to fix later on, you don't have this issue like you know, for me, it's amazing what these dogs pick up in the field and what they hold onto. Okay, so Ethan was my first dog. I had no idea what I was doing with him. You know, we had two dogs growing up as families, so I don't come from a dog a family. We had two labs growing up. The most impressive thing either one of them did was catch potato chips out of the air. Like they were not athletes, thore, not hunting dogs. It's just not what they were. And so you know, when I got my first dog in Easton, and I poured myself into training and prove myself trying to learn, but I didn't know what was going on. Right, So like that first year when I took Ethan out waterfall hunting. I was. I was kind of a lot with I had two buddies in particular, that we'd hunt all over the place. We'd field goose hunt like crazy, We'd duck hunt every chance we got. And yeah, he broke, and honestly, I didn't know he wasn't supposed to and he picked up you know, I was just happy he was picking up birds, right, And so he did over and over and over and over and over again. Well after that first year, I got hooked up with the local retriever club. Learned these dogs aren't supposed to break. Learn, they're supposed to stay. Learn all this stuff right like at the time, I think I'm sixteen years old, And so I worked my tail off and making sure that Easton was steady. That dog ended up being a master hunter, hunter, resuever champion, had all these accolades, did all these things. But every single year he lived at thirteen and a half, every single year that I took him up that first hunt, he wanted to break. He knew he wasn't supposed to. Write all the training, all the accolades, all the ribbons show that he doesn't do it. But I'm telling you that first year of breaking all the time, every single year, every first hunt, I had to be on him because he was going to break every single one. And so it's just it's amazing the situational side of things, you know, because I know some people be like, well birds make a bird dog. I wanted to have those experiences. Then I'll just fix you know, the bad half is to come up. And I'm telling you, man, it is not that you does. 00:40:52 Speaker 1: You make a really good point there around steadiness, because anybody who knows anything about waterfall dogs knows that that is like the lynchpin that holds the whole thing together. It just is like, but if you're not a hardcore duck hunter, you can look at steadiness and be like, well, it's not that important dove hunting. It's pretty important around the house if you don't want a dog, if you want an obedient dog when you take your kids to the soccer field or whatever. Steadiness is an unnatural thing for them because they are not naturally steady, which is why it's so hard to train and get a stick. But it is something that is like the It is like a cornerstone of well behaved dogs in the blind and out of the blind and it's just an it's an unnatural thing to ask. So like what you said there about you know, people are like, well, I want I want my dog to retrieve, Like, yeah, everybody does, right, but your dog already wants to do that most likely. Like that is that is a very natural inclination for them. So that's partially fun, Like that's fun to do, it's fun to train. It's fun to see that develop. But that's generally a hell of a lot easier than getting them to sit there and watch ducks hit the water or aper land and them wait, you know, ten twenty thirty forty seconds as you work them down this path and I know you do this. There are a lot of ways to work in steadiness, almost from the moment you get that eight week old puppy home, you know, making them wait for two seconds to go eat before you let them go eat or whatever like, there are little things to build that in to get them to understand that that is a thing that will be asked of them, not just in the duck blind ten times a year, but throughout the entire year, in a variety of different ways. And it is you know, if you don't duck hunt and you're listening to this the other side of this with upland hunting that you know, Josh, you deal with this constantly, I'm sure is the thing that exists in upland that's just like steadiness or probably a really close parallel. It's recall, right, like I can get my dog to come back in the yard sometimes, but then you get out into the field and it's super exciting and that dog chases a hen, you know, pheazan or something, and you can't get that dog back because it's an unnatural thing. Like it's another thing that yeah, like you could hunt your whole life with a dog. If you can't call it back, you could maybe get away with it. It wouldn't be much fun, it wouldn't be very safe, like you'd swear a lot. But that thing, that skill is an unnatural thing that they need to know to be good. And it's just it's easy to lean into the fun stuff that they take to naturally, but you know, you can't just live. 00:43:27 Speaker 2: Off of that. 00:43:30 Speaker 3: Now you're spot on telling you know, one of the things that I actually I'll have very respectful debates with people that want to have the other side of it, of that I don't want my dog to be steady, right because in a waterfall situation, you know we're talking here, there is no reason and like I've not heard one yet that justifies the dog not being steady because safety should be the first and foremost on all of our minds, right, and that is going to keep your dog safe. The reality is is that if you're the dog handler, you're thinking about the dog. 00:44:02 Speaker 2: Nobody else is. 00:44:03 Speaker 3: Everybody else came to pull the trigger, so everybody else is thinking up pulling the trigger. 00:44:06 Speaker 2: Now. 00:44:06 Speaker 3: You may be in a certain situation, a certain blind that you feel more safe with it because maybe you're you're elevated or you're up or whatever. But like ground blinds, you know, pits, layouts, I mean all these things, Like you are at the dog's level. There is not a more dangerous place on that planet for that dog to be than out in front of the barrels that they're going off. And every single year I hear about a horror story and could you imagine watching your dog go and get ripped apart by your buddy pulling the trigger? I mean, like it's a nightmare situation, Like you don't want to think about it, right, but let's just take that off the table. Okay, safe, do the off the table. Okay, Why would I want my dog to be safe? Your dog is going to be a more efficient retriever being sety, right, because if it's sitting there and you knock down four birds, your dog can officially mark all four of those birds, can go one, two, three, four, boom, and then can go get one, come back, know where the next one is, reset, go come back because it's round he is. If your dog's not steady, you're probably not running blind. You probably don't have the level of control to whistle, sit, have him turn and look at you and give him a cast of direction. So if your dog is breaking and you know, picking up that first bird as it's hitting the water, he's not even seeing birds two, three, four go down, doesn't even know they're out there, right, So from an efficiency standpoint, you're a more efficient retriever being steady. But the safety, to me, that that is like the epitome of it. 00:45:28 Speaker 2: If I mean, I. 00:45:29 Speaker 3: Look at my family, right, so like you know, my dogs strike is my daughter's absolute pride and joy, like she she does everything with that dog, loves that dog. 00:45:38 Speaker 2: If that dog. 00:45:38 Speaker 3: Doesn't come home on a hot I'd have no idea what to tell her, right, Like I would rather him not pick up a single bird and come home safe and sound of that little girl than I would with him picking everything up. But you know he's breaking and he gets you get shot. You know, there's just no no reason for it, and you're right, like, I think that's a great point to him, Like it's unnatural, like so much to like, like Oppenheim, you can as long as you got a good burning gun introduction, you're done to where you have a dog that's bird crazy and it's good with the guns. You can kind of let an uplin in that again with limited expectations, right, you can let an upline you know, retriever kind of go and figure it out and learn because everything's natural. Right, he's using his nose, he's tracking trailing, he's watching it, you know, flush, he's going to pick it up, and he's he's to go down. Right, So like you can get away with more of it there, waterfowl, you have to be under control, Like obedience is utmost important. I would argue obedience is upmost important on the up and side too, because that can get out of control in a hurry, and again I think safety's first and foremost, Like I don't want that that dog chasing that hen that we can't shoot, you know, towards that road where there's an F two fifty ripping down there at seven miles an hour right and doesn't see the dog. Like there are just too many things that can come up. Safety should be first and foremost. And I think everybody wants to skip around the obedience because it's not fun, it's not sexy, it's not cool. 00:46:58 Speaker 2: I can't get it. Could do a video and put it on. 00:47:01 Speaker 3: I think social media is about the worst thing that that happened for, you know, for dog, you know, training and dog relationships deal with us and our dog, because everyone wants to show like, oh this is cool and fun stuff. I cannot tell you how many people when they call me like, oh, my dogs. 00:47:14 Speaker 2: You know, when my dog, you'll get past fifty yards, he doesn't want to whistle to it. How do I fix that? 00:47:18 Speaker 3: I'm like obediing, like no, no, no, he does obedience good. I'm like no, like that's obedient. Like almost any issue you're having can be traced back to an obedient issue and but everybody wants to do like some treat training to do some quick on lead move on and think, hey I'm past that, and it's like no obedience every day entire life, you type in activity. People just have to embrace it. 00:47:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you just have to understand it. I want to clarify quick because when you when you talk about steadiness in the in the duck blind or the boat being a safety thing. Here here's what happens. You go out there, you have your dog that that's going to break, right, and somebody knocks down a mallard and it hits the water, and that that shooter or somebody else in the blind decides they're gonna they're gonna dispatch that cripple on the water, right, So your guns aren't pointed straight up. Their guns are pointed level and that dog breaks and jumps out of that boat to get over the side of the boat, jump out of the blind. That's when they get shot. And you may have not have heard that in your life. If you're listening to this, I've heard it plenty. Josh has heard it plenty. It happens, and you know, I mean, it's it's not like a high likelihood thing, but it gets a hell of a lot more likely if that dog's going to break and if you're hunting with you know, more people or people you don't know very well, like the rule, they're not going to follow the rules on what happens when a cripple gets knocked down. Whatever. Like those things are real. The recall thing with the safety is pretty easy to understand for people. But both of those things, like Josh said, are should be first and foremost, you know, I mean, there is a nice side benefit to those dogs being a hell of a lot more pleasant to hunt with, for sure, but also, like you said, they're going to come home with you when you when you talk about red shirting a pup and bringing it in there to the blind and running an older dog that knows the stuff and just making that younger dog sit back and watch and learn to sort of you know, you're you're conditioning it sort of to tune out distraction, which is great. And also just to understand like this is not my call, you know, like I I have to wait for my release command. I have to wait for the okay to go do this. When you do that, I'm assuming that you probably have somebody else running the gun and you're sitting there just running the dog. 00:49:34 Speaker 2: Right. 00:49:36 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm entirely focused on the dog, like this is about that dog and that experience. 00:49:42 Speaker 2: I'll tell you one of the. 00:49:43 Speaker 3: Other things that it curbs is I would say the number one thing, especially in season, that I get asked about if people, how do I fix this? It's whiny. Your dog's vocal in the blind. It's just sort of you know, just it sounds like che box. You're sitting there at the end of the blind with you right, like it's it's not a fun thing. It's not a pleasant thing. If I could come up with some sort of a system to fix that with one hundred percent of dogs, that'd be the risky dog trainer that that ever ever was. 00:50:12 Speaker 2: You know, just one of those things. 00:50:13 Speaker 3: But but you know, to me, there's two things. 00:50:17 Speaker 2: One, I really do believe it's free. 00:50:19 Speaker 3: I think know your dogs produce noisy dogs, if think there's certain lines to just your producer. And for me, as I'm going through and infelecting my stud dogs, I've had to break my own heart numerous times because this dog is the real deal. But he was vocal or he made a noise or he's making noises, because I really do believe knows your dogs produce no dogs. Now, whether it's a noise dog or a quiet dog, you can mishandle that dog and make them either either nosier or noisy. If you had a naturally quiet dog, make them noisy. And I think the number one way to do that is to bring them out on a hunt like that and have it be go go, go, go go. Right, So like, especially if you're on a quick hunt. Right, so, like the first hunt for that dog, most of us wanted to be a slam dog, right, most of us on to be, Hey, we've got this slammer field. He's gonna get bunch tree trees. This gonna be great for him. He's gonna pick up a lot of feathers, a lot of opportunities. And I think there's a lot of validity around that thought. But it was that first dog time or that first time in the blind for that dog. 00:51:13 Speaker 2: He's gonna be sitting there going, oh my gosh, this is why you get to do next. 00:51:16 Speaker 3: When you get the next it's like you know, a lot of times, like when you bring a puppy home, you know, I always say, like, if you bring an eight week go puppy home and you start throwing that puppy t retree, you this retriever, you're just doing that to validate to yourself, to you you bought a retriever, Like, you're not teaching the dog anything. 00:51:31 Speaker 2: You don't. 00:51:31 Speaker 3: That's one thing that I think is kind of interesting when people are like, oh, I taught it to retreat, Well, he didn't teach a to retreat, like grand mom and dad and Grandpa and Grahama and genetics taught that dog retreat. You didn't teach it to retreat. But in this situation here, like if you ramp that up and it's just retreat, retreat for retreat, retreat, retreat for that dog as a puppy, you're gonna create some bad habits with that, right, Just like on this hunt, if it's go go, go, go, go go, Now, all of a sudden, that dog is jacked up as out of tonaos, right, so the hunt flows down. What happens that dog is still jacked up and anty if I give him a whole season of him going to that blind fitting and watching everything and not letting him think that I'm going to get to go go get this thing after these guns go off, then I just I just bring. 00:52:14 Speaker 2: That right back and I chill that out. 00:52:16 Speaker 3: Now, I do believe, I do understand, like cause I know there's people that are listening to this being like there's no way I'm bringing my dog out for a whole season and not not letting go get a retreat, right, I do understand. I'm in a unique position, right, So like I own you know, eight to ten dogs all the time, so I always have an older dog to you know, to satisfy, y know, my want of want my dogs. 00:52:37 Speaker 2: He'll pick up retreats. 00:52:38 Speaker 3: So it is easier for me to have you know, have you know, my varsity player and have my JV player there. 00:52:43 Speaker 2: My JV player. 00:52:44 Speaker 3: Doesn't go, he doesn't get to play, but he gets to sit there and understand what the game's all about. 00:52:48 Speaker 2: And that's easier for me. 00:52:49 Speaker 3: But I have had so many clients, like I cannot tell you how many people have said I did that and it was the absolute you know this my fourth dog or pift dog there, it was the absolute best thing I ever did for any of my dog is go through that one teasing because you just back it off right, So then all of a sudden, you're two like that dog is so conditioned to everything that you can't train for. He's prepared like it's it's like, you know, how often do we talk about an NFL quarterback that gets drafted number one or number two and the guy all was talent, but to get thrown into the fire, you know, with you know, uh, you know, little experience, the wrong team, all this stuff, and the guy failed, right, Versus you talk about the guy that you know, sat behind Aaron Rodgers for you know, for four years and was prepared when he went and hit the field, right, That guy's set up for success, right, He's with the right team, He's had the right preparation. Like, but then again, we don't think of our dogs that way, you know, and so we just how do we set them up for success? That has to be you know, the goal for any specificate young dog, for any dog going into the field. 00:53:47 Speaker 1: Man, I will never forget and talking to docin about that where he told me and I did this with Luna when she was young because I didn't have an older dog like you're talking about. He is like, find somebody to be your shooter, go scout out those what ducks you like, and don't bring a gun. Work work that dog, pay attention to it, like hold that dog accountable, and work it through these things, and do not be the shooter. Be focused entirely on the dog. And you know, I probably didn't do it as much as I should, but I did it a lot more than I would have ever considered. And it was like a totally different world for me, you know, and I feel that, I mean, this is maybe a weird parallel, but now you know, my daughters are hunting deer like crazy, and I'm not carrying a weapon very much anymore, not like I did for years and years and years. Right, the entire like vibe of that hunt change is so much where I feel like so much more confident about just making the right choices and just just following the process through in the right way. And I see it when I take my daughters out. I see it when I take young dogs out where it's like, as soon as you kind of set that aside and go, you're not going to be the one who gets the grip and grin to throw up on Instagram. Now you're just here for this dog. You are you are putting in something that's really kind of a short term thing when you when you consider the overall life of a dog, but the value is incredible. 00:55:15 Speaker 2: And you have so much more satisfaction having done that. 00:55:18 Speaker 3: Right when when you go through a year of like guns away, I'm focused on the dog. We're on the fly, on you know, on the job training here, right, so we're like we're working. I'm seeing this through a different lens, right, so I'm looking through the dog's eyes. And then all of a sudden you fast forward to the next year and you go, gosh, like, look at well they're done. There's gonna be so much pride and satisfaction that you have because you had the sacrifice and going through it. And and I think, I think that that is so valuable for so many of us of you know, going through that process. 00:55:46 Speaker 2: Right. 00:55:46 Speaker 3: So like for me, I know, I went through like that early phase of I had to kill as many ducks as I possibly could. You know why, I don't know, Like I would just you know, young, and I felt like you were pulling the trigger met you were successful, and you know, and then I graduated through I think a little different than a lot of people do because my you know, the dog side of things. But like I went immediately into the dogs, I'm like, I really don't care about pulling the trigger. I just want to be here for the dogs. And now I'm here with my kids. And and that's a whole other evolution of looking at at things through their eyes and it but it but it does make you appreciate that process, right, because if you're there pulling the trigger, you don't see all the things that are going on between those years. Like there's a lot of thoughts and a lot of emotion, a lot of like, oh my gosh moments, And if you're watching that, I think it's just it's a really easy thing, you know, to love and and and then to just understanding that process. And I think when you see it, when you're when you're not pulling the trigger and you're watching it, right, don't like, yeah, he's not ready to get sent yet, but like his his mind is getting blown right now, and uh, and it is. 00:56:48 Speaker 2: It's really a fun thing to watch. 00:56:50 Speaker 1: So speaking of what's going on between their ears, I've always heard that, you know, people people have problems with vocal dogs, right, Like you said, if you figured out the match formula to get dogs to stop whining and barking, you'd be a billionaire and you would be one hundred percent. It's a very hard thing to cure once it's once it's there, And I've had different trainers tell me that they think it's because the dogs don't know they're doing it, so correcting them on it is sort of like a lightning bolt coming out of the sky that they don't connect with a behavior that they're doing. You know, that dog breaks, or that dog doesn't come back right away, or you know something you know drops that bumper at your feet instead of delivering it to hand. There's an action there that when you correct that dog can make that connection. But do you think that they they like truly don't really know they're doing it. It's sort of an involuntary thing that they just kind of like don't connect as like a intention. 00:57:49 Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, I think in a lot of cases. 00:57:52 Speaker 3: Yet I do think there are cases that the dog is just maybe being a little agreetous with it. Maybe it will do like that wide open mouth like you know, something like that. Then I'm gonna crect it because you know you're doing it then. 00:58:06 Speaker 2: But if it's a. 00:58:09 Speaker 3: What I've seen is that it frustrates people. Right, So what happens when you get frustrated, you're either gonna reach over and make a correction. You're gonna hit you know, hit the e co or make it correction. But the dog can't correct something that he doesn't understand is wrong. Right, And so if it's coming out of you know, from an anxiousness standpoint, if it's coming out because of that, you're just gonna make that dog more anxious by correcting them on something that they don't understand why they're being corrected. And uh, and so you actually make it worse, right, So you can you can just build up this anxiety. Now, the one that that Doug get me is uh. And I think if we're being honest with ourselves, we say this because we all love our dogs. We adore our dogs, we love that they want to be their love. But when that happens more times than a hour I'm talking to people, what they'll say is like, he's just he's just so driven, or he just loves you want to go so bad and he just so that that's Rosecard glasses, right, that that you're looking at things trying to Because for me, I can show you a quiet dog that doesn't make a noise, that wants to go just as bad, right, and he's when you say his name, he's gonna go. 00:59:13 Speaker 2: Just as hard. And you know, so it is a it is a bad habit. 00:59:17 Speaker 3: Now again, I do think the reason I talk about genetics and why, like I really do believe that's where it starts. And I think I think you know your dog's produce, knows your dog. The reason they even talk about that is because I do want people to understand, like it may not be you, like, it may be that this is just who this dog is. And you can rip your hair out trying to figure it out, and you're ever gonna get there, right, and so sometimes you just have to. 00:59:39 Speaker 2: Accept that this is who this dog is. 00:59:42 Speaker 3: But I really do believe that starting the dog out the right way and developing them, you know, in that progressional way, instead of just throwing them the wolves and go go go, go go unlet's pump this up, because I mean, you pump a dog up, there's only one way that they're going it's up, right, So you have to be able to just manage that. And it's just you know, it's exciting, right, Like I had a client literally pick up a dog today and I won't use the name because he's in the industry and the waterfall industry in particular. And he looked at me and he goes, man like, I got these hunts lined up and the Dakotas, and do you think that I. 01:00:14 Speaker 2: Could just take the puppy? 01:00:15 Speaker 3: You know, this is an eight week old puppy, right, you think I just take the puppy with in the body? 01:00:19 Speaker 2: Like is that a bad idea? And I looked at him. 01:00:21 Speaker 3: I was like, that is a terrible Like yeah, like, do not do that, you know. And he's like, well you kind of walk me through why. I was like, okay, risk reward is the risk worth the reward? So in this case, the reward is you say, oh, like the noise didn't seem to bother, right, That's that's the reward, right because there's nothing more that's coming out of that. The risk is we have gun shyness, we have you know, noise sensitivity, We have a doll that is just completely becoming a shell of herself because she has no idea what's going on. Like, it is not worth that risk. And I think we just we all just get so wrapped up into the excitement of having that new young dog around, which it is awesome, you know. I mean I get to see it every day like it is. It is fantastic, and I love that people get so excited about it. But I'm always I'm a I'm a long term person. I want to I want to play the long game. Now, I do understand so much of our society is the exact opposite, right, Like we can get Dane Hear anything that we want in the world and a click in two day shipping. Right So, Like, but dogs are not bad. They are never gonna be. It's not how it's gonna work. And the more time you put into them, the more you're gonna get out of them. Right, So, like it's a process you have to grow. And again this is where I go back to. You know, we all humanize our dogs until it's not gonna to humanize them anymore. 01:01:38 Speaker 2: Right. 01:01:38 Speaker 3: So, if we took first grader and he was hitting off a baseball off a tee and then you're like, all right, man, like you're gonna go you go a bat a Yankee stadium tomorrow, Like you know, we all laugh and be like, yeah, that's ridiculous. But how is that any difference than you taking a six month old dog that just saw a burden gun for the first time, and you're like, all right, man, now we're gonna go on a mega pheasant in South Dakota. 01:02:02 Speaker 2: We're going to go on a big duck hunt to Saskatchewan. We've got like, that's what that is, right. 01:02:06 Speaker 3: And so building them up and preparing them for that, that's how you make them successful. It just it takes time. And that's the one thing that I do think is hard on people, just like spending the time to build them up and prepare them right way. 01:02:19 Speaker 1: Dude, I look at that stuff like, you know, over on the white tail side of things, the amount of youngish people I talk to, like getting into bow hunting who are obsessed with one fifties and one seventies who've only killed three deer in their life and will go out and get major buck fever and screw up over and over and over, and a lot of them will give it up because it's too hard, because they haven't worked through the process of becoming a good deer hunter first before becoming a trophy hunter. It's just like that, like there's just no way around it, Like you can't shortcut this stuff. And you see this a lot, you know. I the topic that I get my ass and the sling over in the dog world all the time is e callers because people will be you know how it is like everybody who bumps into a training problem with a sporting dog immediately wants to go buy an e caller. And you're like, that is a that is a great tool if you use it correctly, and you know how to use it, and you implement it at the right time and all of the qualifiers to make sure it sounds correct. But I'm always like, you probably don't know what you're doing yet, Like you probably don't know how to train this dog in a way yet where you're going to jump to that because you think that's going to fix the problem, But the problem wouldn't be here if you were doing it right like that. That's a reinforcement tool later, you know, in a long distance communication tool and a very valuable thing. But jumping to it, which is like super common, all that is is a reflection on something going wrong on your end so far, and it's really tough for people to understand that. But that that kind of thing. I mean, I don't know if we're getting here in society and I'm getting way off course, But like like you said, you know, we have it pretty We can have whatever we want brought to our house. Pretty freaking easy. We can have we can walk into the average quick trip or grocery store and there's so many calories in there that we can just pick up and we don't have to work for. Really, you know, life is fairly easy. But you see these trends with like fitness and some other stuff now where people seem to sort of be recognizing this side of life like that you're talking about with these dogs, where it's like, yeah, there is no way around this other than just putting in tons and tons of time. And it's and it's not actually even that. It's just a commitment to day after day after day, and it doesn't have to be a ton of time, but it has to be a consistent thing, just like working out or anything else where it's like it might only be a half hour a day, or with a puppy it only five minutes of lesson, two minutes a lesson, whatever, but those lessons happen to have they have to happen every day. That's a hard thing to do. 01:04:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. 01:04:57 Speaker 3: Well, and then too, you know when you look at like the when I say, I look at the long game, like to me, rushing into that first season when a dog isn't prepared, like, I don't care about that first season. Yeah, I want heres three, four, five, six, seven, eight to be great, right, And if stuff goes terribly wrong that first year because you're not prepared, you're not going to have those years and you're not gonna at least not to the level of what you could have. And you know, so that's why I'm just I'm so big on like a let's pump the brakes and if you need to get a dog in kind of a staggered form, right, so if like, hey, you know, my dog's seven, I want to get a dog now so that I have the time and I'm not rushed and not tempted. You have to get the dog in the field too early, that's great, you know, whatever you have to do to you know, for you to be able to approach this the way that it should be approached. But I I'm just I'm really really big on taking your time like I would much rather see a dog going into the field later than earlier, because I know that dog is likely going to be more prepared. But you still have to put in the work. Like, like you said, Tony, like if you're not putting the work, you know it's The gym example is a great example, right, because like, yeah, an hour a day, you're not gonna you. 01:06:09 Speaker 2: Know, decide to go to the gym today. 01:06:11 Speaker 3: Go to the gym for an hour, come back, take your shirt off, look in the mirror, and be like, oh, like that changed my life. Right, But if you do that consistently, it compounds on itself and. 01:06:20 Speaker 2: You will have that moment. 01:06:21 Speaker 3: You may not know when or where, but if you stay the course and are consistent, you will have that moment. Same thing with the dogs, right, One session isn't going to cure it. One tool like a collar is. It's not a magic wand that comes in a box, right, Like, it's not going to cure your problem. But if you stay the course and are consistent, you will have that moment. I promise you'll have that moment that you are so full of pride and so full of joy because hey, I did that, you know, Like obviously with the dog, the team. But like I did that right, Like that dog could have been laying on the couch eating potato ships like instead, like we put in the time, put in the work, and we made this happen. Like there's to me, that's where the satisfaction comes. I love getting texts or emails, you know, from our calls, you know, from clients that have gone through that process. And man, I've had I've had grown men, you know, sixty plus year old men crying as they're telling me a story because they're so full of pride and joy because hey, this was a you know, eighteen months or two year process to get to this point and like we're here and you know, because you do pour yourself into this and uh, and it it's rewarding, man, I mean there's there are very few things like it. 01:07:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, and it's uh, you know on the just just a little point you made earlier about the consistency of training, giving it something every day, maybe a couple of times every day, versus the deciding you know, maybe on a Saturday, you're going to go try to work that dog for three hours and then the wheels are going to fall off. After twenty minutes. It's it's the same kind of thing like you said about you know, you put a lot of pressure on yourself if you if you get this hunting dog, you like, I want this first season. I want to go to South Dakota and I want to get my limited roosters every day, and I'm going to get that dog a billion bird contacts and it's going to be amazing. A better bet is to figure out a way to hunt some woodcock close to home, on some public land when they migrate through and get that dog out for an hour here, an hour there, get it, get those reps in, get those small bird contacts in, and work up to that stuff instead of, like you said, all of a sudden, this great big production hunt where it's like too much, too fast for this young dog and it's just not ready yet. There's just a slow burned progression to this stuff. But like you said and you keep saying, is if you go through it right, you will never not do that. Like once you see what that becomes for a dog, you will never not appreciate that process and try to make that happen because it's always worth it. 01:08:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so much this comes down to owner expectations, right, And we talked about a lot when we send dogs home, Like dog goes through training and it goes home. Is obe on and off lead? Is you know steady, is marking? Is you're delivering a hand to do all these things, and you know, naturally, you know they want to pick the dog up and go right down on a hunt. Well, you know this is different, right, Like we're not in a controlled environment anymore. 01:09:16 Speaker 2: Like there's gonna be so much learning that the dog gas to do. 01:09:19 Speaker 3: There's so many new things you're gonna throw, right, you know, we're not taking your boat rides at you know, four to three in the morning while we're going out training, right, we're not. You know, there's so many factors that go into it that we're not doing on a train, so the dog has to experience it. And again you know the analogiiz I know, keep going back to sports, but you know, like if you if you're in the batting cage and you're hitting, whether it's off off a machine or off your coach, you're throwing your VP and you're hitting really well, when you step into that box at the game, you don't have that level of control anymore, right, now the picture is trying to get you out, right, It's more of a game. It's more than just being in there. And so like for us, you can have a dog prey dial in in the in you know, at home and hitting off off the tee, hitting off the bat machine. But all of a sudden, like you're going again, and all of a sudden, there's more variables. There's the crowd, noise, the elements, the weather, you know what the other team is doing, what the other picture is going to do to get you out, Like, there's more to it. Like you can't just go from in the bandicate and be like, all right, man, you're doing great, like you should be able to hit home runs every time you're up. 01:10:20 Speaker 2: It's not like that. 01:10:21 Speaker 3: And so anytime you're gonna throw variables into the equation, you know there's going to be a learning curve that has to be made to go be successful with you solving that problem. And so for us it's all about again, how do we make the doll be successful. It might be, uh, you know the hide that you're in making sure that the dog can see. It may be you know the the guns right, Like I'm not bringing a young dog out on one of their first hunts with eight guns in the blind, right, I'm having hopefully one or two. 01:10:50 Speaker 2: Let's make this thing easy, let's make it successful, you know. But a lot of that again comes down to us. 01:10:56 Speaker 3: The one, the one that I think is always funny is from an upland standpoint. Right, So I think so much many of us that have an older dog, like I'm gonna bring, you know, the young poppout with the older dog because you know the old dog will teach the dog. 01:11:10 Speaker 2: You know that you know the young dog what to do. No, they don't. 01:11:14 Speaker 3: I mean they don't, now now I do. 01:11:17 Speaker 2: I will agree with. 01:11:18 Speaker 3: That that young dog will likely follow the old dog and kind of start to, like at least get somewhat of an idea of like what the old dog is doing. But the reality is that the old dog is going to get the bird contacts you're hoping the young dog gets because the old dog knows what he's doing. The old dog is probably going to get to the retrieve because the old dog knows what he's doing. All the things you're hoping that young dog experiences, the old dog is going to be the one experience and the young dogs just run run around behind and figuring it out. 01:11:41 Speaker 2: You know. To me, I'd rather break that up. And that's why I love. 01:11:43 Speaker 3: Like, if you're in a two dog setup, you're like, well, when do I get the next dog? I love when again, you know, gouy wine, everything happens and you don't lose the dog earlier. Right, But like at at seven, eight nine years old, you know that dog, that older dog is probably starting to slow down a little bit, Like we're not doing like the big long days anymore, right, So it makes it a little easier for a guy to go, Okay, half the day I'm going to dedicate to my old dog, and half the day I'm going to dedicate to my young dog and give him the experience, you know, and and kind of work your work way up into it. So then when my old dog is you know, eleven, now, all of a sudden, my young dog is, you know, three or two, and now he's like he's ready to go do this right, and they and they both kind of ease in and out of it. That's an ideal world. But I just you know, the the old dog doesn't like, go, hey, hey, sport, let me take you in under my wing and teach everything I know, like, this is just not help. 01:12:31 Speaker 1: Work, if I mean, A good way to look at that is to think that it's hard enough for us to be good trainers. You're your old dogs. Yeah, doesn't want the job, isn't going to take it, doesn't want to do it. Josh uh right, we're on a time here. I got to pack up, take my daughter's on a little hunt here very very soon. I want to thank you so much for coming on. I want to get you back at some point, maybe get your bride on there too, to talk about puppies and bloodlines, because we dipped into that a little bit, but there's a lot we cover there. Why don't you let everybody know where they can find your kennel, where they can find all your social all that good stuff. 01:13:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you just look up Riverstone Kennels. 01:13:09 Speaker 3: So we're on Facebook, Instagram, you know, Riverstone Kennels dot com. You can find our website there. You can also find the line of the kennel. I'm happy to talk to anybody that wants to talk about you have training or looking for a puppy, anything like that. 01:13:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, we didn't even get into your kind of you know, genetics and breeding all. 01:13:26 Speaker 3: This stuff, which is obviously a huge part of this whole thing, like you got to have the right you know, the right player to coach in the first place. 01:13:32 Speaker 2: But yeah, I just I love this. I love talking dogs. I love this is literally. 01:13:38 Speaker 3: My life, and so you know, love to hear from anybody that wants to reach out and talk about Dowson. 01:13:42 Speaker 2: Thanks buddy, all right, take care of having good hunt. 01:13:47 Speaker 1: That's it for this week. I'm Tony Peterson. This has been The Houndation's podcast as always. Thank you so much for listening for your support. If you want some more dog training content, or maybe you're heading out west for a rifle hunt for something, maybe you're just getting into a tree stand, spend some time for white tails. Whatever. The medeater dot com has tons of new content going up every single week. You can watch films, You can obviously go find other podcasts there. Our network keeps growing. We have a ton of cool shows on there. Or maybe just want to read how to article or find a recipe for some roosters you're going to kill this week. Whatever. It's all over at the medeater dot com. Go check it out.