00:00:06 Speaker 1: Most of you have been following the case with the same figure as you did the O. J. Simpson trial. So congrats to all the subway fans out there. Take a hot shower, long, hot steamy shower, right, get out, don't try off, and put all your clothes back on and have your wife just scream at you. It's like everybody's grandfather. Like, went surfishing twice, hit a couple of trout openers, did some bass fishing. It's always like power bait here amid sinkers and the guts of some old spin reel. It was one of those karma moments where you were telling all the tree huggers to leave you alone, and I'm bleeding it. I'm telling you it was very painful. Good morning to generate Anglers, and welcome to Bent the Fishing Podcast from Iowa. It still believes if it can just get to Florida in mid January, it will find guaranteed warmth, happiness and pure fishing nirvana. I'm Joe Surmeli, and here to refute that belief, possibly along with many other beliefs about the state of Florida, is my guest co host Port St. Lucy's own Captain Zach Hammer Miller. Yeah, I mean sure, if you guys want to come down here and waiting endless lines of snowbirds trying to get lottery tickets while you're trying to be at the boat ramp. And you know, if you like tugging on little stuff all winter, that should be fine for all you Midwesterners out there. There you go, there you got. I gotta tell you, man, when Miles flew the coop, um, you've got quite a few nods from the Bent Legions as a replacement host. And I kind of knew you would. I figured you would, right, But yeah, but as much as I love you, I do recognize that non Hammer people can also find you like two abrasive. So like, do you consider yourself abrasive at us? Yes? Absolutely actually, But at first I really want to thank you for the opportunity to come here and it co hosts the show with you. This is like one of my bucket list things. And even though Miles flew the coop, you know, I appreciate you inviting me here, But like nobody wants to be the guy trying to replace the guy that's like trying to be the coach of the Patriots after Bill Pelichick leaves, like and I mean that guy not only that, like he went to a pan Terror show and survived in their prime and you're trying to bring me in and I gotta follow this like, thanks, buddy, I really appreciate it. He's talking about Miles at Pantera, by the way, not Bill Belichick. Just so we were clear on that. Um. So for those of you that don't know Zach right, he has been on this show several times. We go way back. We met many years ago while you were still heavily involved in the land based shark fishing scene in Florida. That's that's what I came down there to do, called a big old hammer head. And back then you were like the feet glued to the sand and peer guy. And like most surf fishermen I know myself included, right, they're all about that life until they buy a boat, which you did and became a captain. And so what do you run in these days? Like a nineteen seventy six Mckeykraft bower Rider or something like that. I wish I had that kind of coin. Those things are actually pretty expensive there on the aftermarket as collectors items. I saw one guy that was wanted like twenty grand for like a sixteen ft nineteen seventy Boston whaler, and I'm like, what are you doing with this? Like my trailer is worth more than this thing. But people pay for it somewhere. But I I we just did a whole dost boat series about it on a nineteen seventy six Mako. Did you really Yeah? Didn't? Did you miss all of that? The Insider Dutch? Thanks Bud, Thanks Bud. I wish we appreciate you. I love you, man. But I'm running I'm running up two pro line bay boat right now. It's a piece of ship. It's literally and figuratively a money pit. Literally, I just take money, a hundred dollar bills to just throw it out in the hole when I walk into my driveway every morning. And like, what's sad about it is it's so identical to a Pathfinder. They actually got sued by Pathfinder and they had to stop making them after two years. So I call it the poor fine but you know, like yeah, I mean we're we're the qualities lacking. It's easy to see. Yeah, okay, that's fair, so listen. So one of the things I enjoy about you, and you just sort of started to demonstrated, Um is that I know, I know you refuse to leave the state of Florida because of the fishing. The fishing keeps you there, but otherwise you seem to hate everything about the state of Florida, right, And I guess we I guess we can kind of call the loose theme of this episode like true Florida, Like you're gonna tell us about like the real Florida. Yeah, yeah, I mean what's left of it at least if you can even call anything that's whatever semblance of what I grew up here in my short time on this you know, spinning rock. But yeah, I mean, you are right, you are correct in your you know what you're saying there, Like I would not leave Florida because of the fishing, but everything else here is literally like living on hell on Earth. Okay, Well, furthermore, right, you've never really struck me as a people person per se, Right, But yet yeah, yet, now you're a guide for hire, So how does that play out? Like? I also think it is fair to point out that you're not a full time captain like you you do not rely solely on that to pay the bills. Thank you for pointing that out, because if it was my sole way of paying bills and be living in what's left of my poor finder under an overpat somewhere with my with my trim motor ruined on my engine right now, it puts a lot less stress when you actually have to repair these things, when you're paying your bills with it. You know, it's nice to walk out and like that's a nice boat in my drugway. One day I'm gonna get that old girl running again and running charters. So wait, so when you do have time to actually take a paying customer out right, this is what I want to know, sort of talk to me because I have not been out on your boat. I want people to know that we fished a lot of different ways on other boats and on the beach, but I've never been on your boat. So like, here's your chance. I want you to do like a like a like a little throw down phishing charters infomercial, Like what can the person like on the fence with that deposit money, just burning a hole in his or her pocket expect out of a throw down fishing charter. Well, essentially, it really depends on what season we're talking about. But let's just say it's summer just for the hell of it, because that's going to catch our biggest fish and the best fishing and flat oceans and blah blah blah postcard. But if you're really out here wondering what it's like, imagine coming down here, like you just left Minnesota. You're like, I'm going to catch king fish and sailfish and goliath grouper with Captain Zach and July in South Florida. You come down here and the only way I could describe it so you are prepared for it besides my absolute misery on the boat because you're probably not listening to what I'm telling you to do to catch the fish. Such a great endorsement for your it listn't. This is all about being real here man, stronger than all. And if you want to know what it's like and you just want to prepare yourself for coming here in July to fish with me, just go into shower. Take a hot shower, a long, hot, steamy shower. Right get out, don't try off and put all your clothes back on and have your wife just scream at you, because that's essentially what this is gonna be like but with a lot more fish hopefully as long as you listen. Oh man, that's that, and I believe that that is that. It's about as pinpoint accurate as you. Yeah, there's no tea top, there's no shade. You are probably going to die. Just make sure you leave your card number on file. So sor right so you you might be running a very hot, steamy sled now. But as we've already established, you did grow up in the surf and and pier scene, in particular in Florida, which was quite a unique deal, like a lot of pure culture right back in the day. And I know that's changed a bunch, which we're going to touch on in this week's Smooth Move, which we're actually recording together right where. We're teaming up for our smooth Move this week, and joining us is your good buddy Brendan Winters, who's got a cringe worthy story from your old peer days. Why so joining us today for Smooth Moves. First, I should say Zach is joining us for Smooth Moves. I am not solo. My guest co host is here with me. Check in, check your micsn Hey, are you still here? You're still here in this episode. And this is cool because we're actually we're sitting here with with Brendan Winters, who is a friend old friend of yours, former roommate. But we originally had the idea, Zach had the idea of having you on originally because you are a service manager to local marina and we figured, you know, smooth Moves is all about industry guys, any any part of the fishing industry, like if there's if there's stories to tell, we want to hear him. But then he told me that you're actually one of his old peer buddies. Like you guys grew up fishing the pier scene together before it sort of got got messed up and weird. According to Zact like what changed. Lots of things, man closing during nighttime, um, you know, shark fishing off the piers started getting you know regulated, people were starting to uh, you know, call the cops. It was a big deal. I mean, not even that. All the way down to finding parking was an absolute joke. I mean it was ridiculous. Every where we went, didn't matter where. Yeah, and it got really bad there because like you know, our parents would just drop us off on the pier for two or three days at a time and just say like say sorry about your luck. Figure it out, and like oh yeah, they're yeah twenty, I got ten. It was three f nentry. So like you're hustling trying to sell fish to like go get a Tony's microwave pizza at the seven eleven once every two days. And saviki riggs were like four dollars a pack. If you lost a saviki, you were done, Like you better be good with a snatch hook on the chum bag. But other than no doubt. Yeah, And like we would sit there and it was out of control because like our parents like, oh, they're fishing on a pier that's only four hours next to nine bars, how bad could it be? And like all the guys who were like thirty years older than us, we're sleeping under tarps with them and they're blowing pills and stuff under the tarps and like like oh, yeah, no, this is just normal. You know what could go wrong? But and then they started calling the cops because they're like, you can't have fifteen year old kids sleeping on a pier for three days, like a bunch of homeless people. Come on, man, So you guys basically caught the end of like the what would be the wild West days of the piers scene down there. Yeah. No, we were the last like true group going through there before like social media and all the regulations and stuff. But like when it started getting out into the public and people started seeing and like videotaping everything in pictures like, it all kind of dived shortly after. But like the wild West of that was like the wild West, like there was some there was worse stuff going on in some of those piers than the bars. Yeah. Yeah, so you sort of tipped me off to the story we're gonna hear. I don't know all of it by request, but I said, we're gonna go to the boat maintenance customer service route maybe. But then then then I heard about this an old school pier story, and I'm like, this is the one that Brendan needs to tell. So I'm gonna give you the floor, man, I mean, you guys were there. I'm just sort of the bystander in this one. So so lay it on me. What happened? Well, so basically we have been fishing on the pier like usual. Probably I think it was a Saturday that it actually happened. We had been there since Friday night, and um, you know, the day had been slow. You know, we usually plan our days around catching benita, you know, king fish, barracout or whatever we've used for shark bait. Right, was just a slow day, you know. And um, I want to say, one of our buddies hooked a sting ray and I mean it took him all over the place, ended up walking it down to the shoreline. You know, a crowd gathered, you know, a bunch of tree huggers. You know, just don't kill it. Don't do this. You know, everyone's telling us, you know, you got it, you should do this, you should do that. We're like, I don't know, We're not listening to this anyway, you know, so we we end up, you know, lowering down. You know, the three hooks of death, the trouble hook, all right, and the gaff if you will stuck him on the first try, you know, get him up on the pier as everyone scream, you know, like bloody murder. We were killing an angel, you know, and uh, by the time it gets on the dock, you know, it's a it's a bloody mess. Without even cutting it up. Like, how big of a stingray? Are we talking three or four feet in circumference? I mean, it wasn't it wasn't huge. Fifty pounds maybe just rubber, like a couple of good baits, you know. Yeah, we had three. Yeah, we had three dollars and we needed shark baits to survive another night. Like you get off our back, lady, and I want to stay up until that moment. We were moments away about going to um one of the charters, you know, to ask them if they had caught any be needed on the way backs, you know, the trips and stuff. Yeah, we were. We were not spending an other night there without having anything to toss off the pier and wait for a spritter to pick up, you know. So our plans were made the moment we saw what it was. You know, we didn't care who said what or anybody just nobody could have told us any differently. We were doing what we were doing and there was nothing about it. So we get it on the dock and then you know, there's slowly becomes a crowd around us on the pier as well, and you know, because they allow observers to go on the pier and I guess you know, there was plenty of tree huggers on the pier as well, and you know, they kind of huddle around us, and you know, they're like, oh, this is terrible. You could hear everybody whispering like I can't believe they're gonna do this. This is terrible, poor Stingray. And just to clarify for the people, just to clarify, totally legal, right, you know, there was nothing yeah, yeah, yeah, right now, it's just feelings were getting hurt. But anyway, you know, so we get it up there, there starts to become a crowd. You know. Um, I want to say Jordan's ended up cutting the Stingray tail off. Unfortunately, wasn't you We were all huddled together. I mean we were we were working this thing. We're trying to make this in and out quick and easy, get it to the tea, you know, start cutting it up, getting it ready for you know, a late night snack, and uh, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, we started clearing the way to drag it up to the front of the pier, and I was like, you know what, let me get let me do you know, a little clean up here. Let me get this thing, ray barb the stingers, the pier. So I kicked it once and it kind of rolled. It was it was a It was a muff field goal. I mean, it was not good, and I was disappointed and I felt like I could have done better. I mean, I was wearing shoes that so unbelievably ironically had a hole in my right big toe, and when I kicked it the second time, it was like a hole in one. It went right through my big toe and into my foot. Its splinted my big toe through my shoe. Now I'm screaming. The second it happens. Is I knew I screwed up. The moment I kicked it, I knew I was like game over that guys, my night is done. I Am not sticking around for shark fishing. I gotta go to the hospital. I gotta go somewhere. And I'm screaming, and I'm begging Jordans, one of our buddies that was there, to pull it out. I'm like, Jordan, you gotta pull it out of my foot, Please, please pull it out of my foot, because it was stuck in there. The whole tale was hanging off the front of the It was gruesome, and they they thought I was kidding because I I joked around. I kid, I was always looking for the laugh. And and our buddy Chris Crow, he was dying laughing like he was on the floor, couldn't stop laughing. He thought it was the most hilarious thing ever. Jordan's ends up putting his two hands on it and tries to pull it, and he goes, dude, I can't do it. I don't know, I can't do it. So if you're familiar with the way of right tail and a barber come down as a the tail is one piece, the barbs the other. Yeah, and it was cut above that area. So what I did was I stuck my right hand in between the stinger and the barb, and as I pulled out, it shredded. All of my flesh coming out and all there was with a circular hole left in my foot. And as soon as I pulled it out, blood went everywhere, and the smiled and laughs from Chris disappeared. Everyone was like, oh my god, I cannot believe this just happened. And it was one of those karma moments where you were telling all the tree huggers to leave you alone. And you know, after that, I'm bleeding it and I'm telling you it was very painful. They didn't have any alo vera for you or anything. I'll get to how we solve that issue. Um. You know, some of the people that were Stingray advocates for the day, they were definitely like, oh, you got what you deserve, blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm bleeding all over the place. I finally get my shoe off and they carried me down to the front of the pier and I got to sit behind the countertop there and I want to say, uh, Zach correct me for wrong. But wasn't um Paul working that day? Toothless Paul? I don't remember remember all this, Yeah gummy Paul we called actually yeah, gummy Paul and uh when he had the whole tale sticking out of his shoe, running around out of his case Swiss, I was dragging, Yeah, I was dragging the carcass of the sting right with the gaff through the face, up to the front of the pier. And I turned around and saw the commotion and screaming, and I saw it just flopping around like a dogtail and like, what's going on here? And then next thing you know, there's just blood everywhere and screams and people are cheering. And it wasn't It wasn't a good moment. It was it was. It was painful on on a lot of levels, but mostly physical. Emotionally, I was I was preoccupied. But so I get to the I get to the front. They put me behind the counter and they kept putting my foot in bleach and hot water. And then if I took my my foot out of there, it was killing me. But if I put my foot in there, it hurt, but it wasn't that bad. So then they call my parents. They call an ambulance. An ambulance comes, hauls me away. My mom goes for the ride. We get to the emergency room. They rolled me in and they're doing X rays on my foot. They noticed that there is a speck of something in my foot still, and they're like we gotta do surgery and and he's got to be awake for it, blah blah blah blah blah, and and they're like shooting the needles into numb my foot, in my big toe, and they're like you're gonna feel some pressure blah blah blah, and I felt anything but pressure. I felt them cutting my foot open and removing the piece not gently, by the way, and then proceeding to pour iodine all over this open wound and scrubbing it because they had to make sure in section did not happen. And I literally was screaming. They gave me a towel to bite on. I mean it was I'm telling you, that was probably one of the worst things I could say that's ever happened. And I mean I stepped on a gas and it went through my foot and that wasn't even nearly as bad as this. I mean, this was next level bad. I will say this, I'm not scared of them when I catch them accidentally, because I feel like you can be careful and not have this happen. But I am like waiting in Texas or Florida, like I am wigged out by it. I like, I am so scared of that barb dude, and I know how far they can drive it in I hate to bring him up. Like Jeremy Wade did the thing about it once, but they did an experiment, and like they did it in slow with a slow mo camera, like dude. They'll drive that whole thing into a piece of beef from like tip to the end in a split second. We don't realize how far it'll go. It's not like you're just stepping on a thorn like they actually put motion into it and drive that thing. You've got circular barbs all the way around it, so when you pull on it, it's sticking like this. It goes in one way and don't want to come out. So when I pulled it, I ripped all of my flesh. It went into my foot four inches four inches into my foot. That's gnarly. That's gnarly, dude. My only question is are you still doing the case Swiss or if you like, move to steel toes since no, I I've I've moved on. I mean I've bounced around, uh you know, Adidas, Nike, I've had steel toes. I still have steel toes. I've got some cowboy boots. I mean, I'm diverse with my my footwear. Why aren't you signed on with Crocs For a short time, I was. I was a huge advocate, But I will tell you that completely debunks this whole story because if you look at Crocs closely, they have barb entries all over the place, so easy access. Yes, I tend to steer away from them when I'm doing something gnarly like shark faving. There you go. That's another knock against Crocs exactly, all right, So that was funny, right, But considering I have a thing about hand and foot injuries, that was also really in brutal, right, And I don't get squeaming about someone getting like stabbed in the stomach like I could. I could see that and be like, oh man, but hand and foot injuries make me want to hurl, which is a weakness I have, you know, and that is weak of you. I'm glad you admitted that, because that was strong, but you're still weak. I just wanted you to know that. But in general, I'm a little upset. The only thing that we don't have is a picture of its sticking out of his case Swiss shoe, because that could have been something he could have passed down to his little kids for generations to you know, dwell on and not where Crocs I did. I'm sure we could do a book or an entire series based around peer stories. Uh, but it's kind of something I wish I had experienced, but I did also get a kick out of how you guys used to beg for I used to beg for Benita at the Charter Docks because we talked on the show recently about how Bonita or what I call false Albacore are viewed differently by region, like they're revered here, you know this, but not there. In fact, you were one of the most Albie Hayitan sons of bitches. I know. Okay, listen, I mean, let's put it into context here. Do I hate Albi's guilty? Do I like them when they are called Bonita here in Florida? Yes? I do. They are a ton of fun. I love catching them when you know they're man sized, like fifteen two pounds, not when you're trying to risk life and limb in a McKey craft and eight swells trying to catch two pound fish. Like, let's let's let's just doing that. Let's keep it. I know you are and with our with our mutual buddy, Captain Eric Kerber here in Jersey, beating up on false Avocre with my arsenal of thirteen sticks, thirteen fishing rods, and I even had to play around with a spinning reel in the testing phase. How about that? And I gotta say they performed beautifully and a hard tale even you can't deny. We'll test the ship out of your drag. Like if you want to punish a reel and a rod Alb's that's a good way to do it. And my trusty Ooman green rod did great. Oh yeah, absolutely, those things will tear any tackle up. That's why I love them. They're great. I just don't know, you know, the appeal of the whole Northeast culture about the whole thing. I'll go out there and literally try to die to catch some some mouths. Like I was there. I was there. We're going al fish and it's blowing twenty five out of the Northeast and I'm like, we're going out that inlet right now to do what? Like that's I'm like, I wasn't even halfway through my Wawa pretzel and I'm like, are you kidding me? Like yeah, yeah, now that's fair, that's fair. We'll go crazy for him. So anyway, so we we call him out because you call him Benita. There's a common name in the South and throughout the Gulf Um, but it kind of brings up like, I'm always sort of intrigued by Arian nicknames for fish, and Floridians I think have a fair amount. Like I've heard you call sea trout paper mouths and mustard mouths. Is that accurate? Oh? Absolutely? The little speckled devils of the flats. Those are one of my favorites. Yeah, So I thought what we do? Um, Since I assumed that all of you listening to the Midwest and the North are just gonna flock to Florida over the winter, I asked Zach to tackle a weekly word segment by himself. But this one has a little twist and is guaranteed to help all you snowbirds fit right in. When you're milling around the dock at Worldwide Sportsman this February, everyone will just assume you're a local, except make Webster's Dictionary defines fish as this week's word isn't a word, it's actually a series of words that you should memorize, so the next time you're in Florida for an overpriced charter set up by the folks at Disney, you'll know what the hell the local anglers are talking about, which will make you feel like a local. Even though we could smell the New Jersey in Ohio or the pork roll and grits on you from a mile away down here in Florida. Since our state is full of largely transients running away from things across the country, our fish species have taken on a wide array of unique names that most anglers probably wouldn't recognize, and we want you to fit in with all the googins and cooks infesting our docks and piers. For instance, you might hear somebody bring up yellow bellied spider eaters. This is what rich kids wearing bone fish scale buffs on the Hell's based skiffs their dad's bought them referred to as permit. Poor kids fishing the piers like myself used to call them yellow bellied spider eaters because all they pretty much eat his crabs. And let me tell you no better way to kill the same amount of time needed to get your bachelor's degree from the community college than sitting on crabs on bottom rigs and fighting off fifteen pounds spiny pufferfish praying that one day an actual yellow belly will swim by and eat your crap. In the end, we had a lot in common as far as wasting our time goes just my crew is wearing Walmart clothes and doesn't celebrate our failures by clinking I p A s and posting about it on Instagram. Let's talk mercury missiles. In some circles, large publishers clearing house sized novelty paychecks are handed out for catching these during tournaments in the summertime. And if you flip through any saltwater fishing shows on your Saturday morning TV lineup, you were bound to see at least one guy and a half million dollar center console cranking one in with the drags set to zero and the clicker on to what. All the other guys dressed identically on the boat know that at some point in time that kingfish might be boat side at some point before the final bell rings. But for us heathens who are less romantic about the kingfish, we call the mercury missiles. Not only are they slimy and bloody, but if you happen to throw a big one on the grill and attempt to choke the oily meat down with your family and friends who thought you cared for them, you will likely be radiating like a glowstick from the Dollar store. On the account of how much of a lethal dose of mercury you just consumed? Convicts, doesn't that sound fun? During the wintertime, one of our favorite pastimes is fishing for convicts. I will say that this doesn't sound glorious at a first glance, because it normally isn't. But if you watch any old time movie featuring some less than favorable characters that have ended up in jail, the black and white stripes on their forever clothes are normally a good sign that you know that generally they are less than favorable. Convict isn't the name for one species of fish, but multiple prison clad s suited fish that prowled the river waters, including but not limited to, sheep, said black drum, and black margate. If you catch all three, you got a jail break. Is it glorious? No? But will they bend your rod? It beat you up in bridge pilings and shallow reefs all day while giving you and your probably felonious friends a nice commissary fish fry. Absolutely, and last and probably least, don't forget gummies. More than likely, if you come to Florida and do an offshore trip with any sort of bait on bottom, there is a high probability you would encounter this lazy, death rolling brown turd sorry excuse of a shark. Yeah, it's a shark, if you even want to call it that a nurse shark. More specifically, these fish have the attitude and appetite of a catfish, but with nowhere near the clouder personality. If you catch one on a guided trip or a charter, the captain will most likely pretend to make a big deal about it and tell you how awesome it is you caught a three pound, largely toothless slug shark. Especially at the captain has a twenty two ft bay boat, a pro line bay boat, my bay boat. So riddle me this, Why are more people in talking about the jailbreak. That's the first time I've ever heard of that slam like dude. That should be our b side fishing episode down the road. Forget all like the massive tarpin and ship you're catching in the surf and the fame Florida mullet run. Dude, Let's do a February jailbreak. I will tell you this, the older and more pathetic that I get, and more house broken by my weener dog, the more. I enjoy fishing for convicts and such like that. Like when I know I could take my boat out in forty degrees and not see anybody at the ramp, and I could just go and spend three dollars in fuel and mow those things down all day. It is a blast. It's mindless, it's fun. But I will tell you that black market, Oh that's a kicker, boy. I mean to get that black market hard hard one. Oh yeah, yeah, good luck on that, damn man. See, like I thought for sure you would crap all over that idea of getting together for a jail break. I'm kind of shocked. I thought that would be an instant uh, an instant note from you. But you actually you seem as excited as I am to square off with and destroy my new News co anchor Hayden samic in Fish News. Fish New. That escalated quickly, So, Hayden, we talked a few shows ago about the false Albacore and the Benita. You asked about their edibility and did you see my video documentation on the instagrams I ate it. I was. I am a man of my word and I ate the false Albacore. I tagged you. I did see your post on the instagram's Joe, the instagrams, that's what we call it around here. Uh yeah, man, but we you know what, we just did some sashimi, both plain and with a splash of soy sauce. Um. We had a four person panel of testers, including myself, and it was it was shockingly good. It was shockingly good. Like what I call it outstanding? No, I wouldn't you know it does. It doesn't quite stack up to your your yellow fins and your blue fins, but it was good. Um, much closer to skip jack tuna and black fin tuna. And it was fascinating because the idea of them being inedible, as we discussed, right, it runs deep for the most part in most parts of this country. Like that's like you just don't eat that. Um. I don't know a single person, um firsthand at least who eats them. But I think the real lesson was simply how much fish care matters, you know what I mean? Like we we treated this one like a yellow fin, bled it, immediately, iced it proper and ate it within two hours of the suckers swimming around. UM. And that made all the difference. You know, if you just hack it up, you know, like a fresh one straight out of the water. It's an oily, bloody mess. If you toss it in the old bait cooler with no ice, the shelf life for it not tasting like total ass is very very short. Um, and it was interesting to a handful of people, wrote in Singing the Praises of Albus on the Table though. If you did mention that the trick is indeed eating it raw or rare as soon as you cook it through, then several people were like, then it gets really tough to eat. I don't know if that that really like drawls concentrates whatever oil is left. I don't know. So it was it was it's so good that I'm gonna kill everyone. No, you know, if I'm craving sushimi and the elephant bite is super slow, yeah, I'd eat that again. So I I kind of like you sort of pushed me towards that inadvertently, and I appreciate it, like I learned something new. Well, I'm happy I had a small part in expanding your palate, spanning my my horizons. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Man. On the subject of of questionable tunas, uh, did you hear about the your subway lawsuit again thrown out? Oh I sure, did you bet? I did this? Yeah? Man, yeah, this suit claiming subways tuna isn't real tuna. It's pretty much been dropped or at least stalled or something like that. Um, because I know, I know, like me, most of you have been following the case with the same figure as you did the O. J. Simpson trial. So congrats, congrats to all the Subway fans out there. Everyone was who was rooting for Subway. I could like hear the sigh of relief breathe across the country. Um, are you I don't think I've asked yet. This has been four shows and I haven't asked. Are you a Subway tuna fan? Like when you get the muncheese? Is that stop? I'll stop last time I promised, promise it's for the fans. Man, Come on, Um no, man, absolutely absolutely not. Uh. I'm a very adventurous eater. There are very few things I won't at least like you know dabbling. That said, there are three foods that I flat out refused to eat, and one of those happens to be canned tuna. Really, yeah, I can't stand it, and I haven't eaten for as long as I can remember. So no, not a fan. That's interesting. I mean respect for that dude, And like I don't. I don't. I'm not like a huge canned tuna fan either, but I I sort of liking it to like the McDonald's burger debate, Like, if you want to really a good burger, you don't go to McDonald's, but sometimes you just want McDonald's, Like it's a different sort of thing. So like, yeah, man, sometimes I'm just craving a tunamount and I'll grab a can of Charlie out of the pantry. God, it's not that it's not that big a deal. Um. Anyway, I'm glad I know that, and say I learned something about you. You don't do can tuna, So that's good. If you ever here, I'll know not to feed that to you, Like, don't pack hayde a tuna sandwich. Um. But you know, I was thinking, they haven't ever really said what kind of tuna is in Subway tuna. They've they've said all along, they've maintained that it is in fact real tuna, but nobody ever noted a species, at least not that I recall. So I mean, dude, there's a strong chance that that's false, Abbey, right, they are highly sustainable, you know, and and if if that's what it proved it to be, I'm good with that. It is what it is. I will continue to eat it. You will not. We'll both go our separate ways, you know. So yeah, well, you know, as as long as sustainable, I don't, I don't really care what you all eat. I'm not about to break my no canned tuna streak with ub boy. And uh, speaking of streaks, I am looking to break my losing streak in this week's edition of Fish News Films. And I've been treating you well, so I'm rooting for you myself. Well. Thanks as always, folks, Joe and I have each selected a story. Phil's gonna pick the one that he likes the best, i e. The one that sets him up for the best joke after the segments over, and the loser will get squid gamed. Joe Europe first best of luck. But yeah, dude, I don't think I'm gonna need luck today because I'm gonna tell you what, brother, I got a live one. I actually haven't been this pumped on a news story in a while, because this one has twists and turns that will lead to some some really good debate. UM. And I'll preface this by saying, I'm curious to hear the opinions of you listeners. When this is all said and done, please reach out. I'm very curious. Shout out to Bent fan Anthony Shelton for sending this one my way. And it comes from w j h L dot com, which is out of Tennessee. And I'm probably gonna run a hair long on this one just one year, but I think it's worth it because this is this is pretty interesting. So way back on the Memorial Day weekend, A J. Silver's and some friends set a trot line in the Nola Chucky River with the intention of catching a whole bunch of cat fish for a fish fry, which is a family tradition he has every Memorial Day weekend. UM. On the off chance you're not familiar with the trot line, it's a it's a long line with a whole bunch of baited hooks that you string across the river. You tie it off to a tree at one end and wait down the other. UM. And really it's a form of commercial fishing, but very legal in many many states, provided you follow all the rules and a very old school form of getting fish for the table. So when Silver's showed up to check his trot line, what he found was a group of kayakers with his trot line in their hands. Now, this group consisted of a few kayak trainers from the Nola Chucky Outdoor Learning Institute and their students. The leader of this group was season kayak trainer Scott Fisher. It was Fisher who cut the trot line in three places, because he says one of the kayaks had gotten tangled in the line and a hook ended up stuck in one of the paddler's life jackets. All right, so, according to Fisher, he claims the trot line was not marked properly, which they must be by law, and he says because it wasn't marked, he assumed it was abandoned. Silver says it was absolutely marked correctly, and this entire exchange was captured by Silver's on his cell phone. He of course posted that video to Facebook, and I of course watched it. Um, did you see the video? Did you watch the video with this? Um? I did not watch the video. I have heard about this story and I read the article. Although the article was kind of hard to follow because you'd expect the dude name Fisher being the trot liner and like, so my brain, yeah, I know, yeah, you're probably not even on face. You're like way past the Facebook generation. But that's okay, because I'm gonna break down the video now. So um. Not only do Fisher and his fellow yakkers claim the line wasn't marked, they say it also wasn't properly weighted. Had it been, their kayaks would have glided right over it, but instead the nose of one of the yaks got pulled under it, pulled it up and exposed it, and the other yakkers following it hit it. Now. Silver's argues it was weighted with four bricks, so that's impossible. That couldn't have happened um, And he believes these guys were simply keeping an eye out for trot lines to cut them because they just hate trot lining. And he says this certainly isn't the first time this has happened, but if you watch the video, Silver's is far more aggressive. Fisher and crew are cool, calm, and collected to make it pretty clear, at least to me, that they actually have no issue with trot lines. They know it's something people deployed on the river and they're very aware of them. In fact, Fisher points out that while he cut the trot line, it's totally salvageable. He returned it to Silver's and insisted this happened not out of any sort of malice, but simply for safety reasons. And Fisher told w j h L quote, we're all out here enjoying the outdoors. It's all good. The issue is with a line stretched across the navigable waterway with exposed fish hooks that can hook a kid an adult, it doesn't matter. There's no place for it. And in the video you hear Fisher telling Silver's to just do the right thing and maybe set up in areas where there's less traffic, because I gather that the Nola Chucky is pretty popular with kayakers and rafters. And he says, hey, if you're if you're properly licensed to use a trot line and someone gets hurt, you're liable for that. And Silver says, yeah, I know that. He says he does do this responsibly and tells them he isn't changing a thing about his program. Um Now, according to the story, the relationship between paddlers and trot line Fisherman's is like the hat Fields and the McCoys, and Silver's has had his lines cut a dozen times, and he notes, which is a perfectly fair point, that a lot of time and a fair amount of money go into building and setting up a proper trot line, right like this. This isn't like it's takes some effort. Yeah, it's not like you're just going down to the bank and like chucking bait like a try line is like a It's a whole thing. Yeah, yeah, it's it's and it's a very big deal. It's a very cultural thing in a lot of a lot of this country right now. Apparently fisher and crew and Silvers and crew ended up at the kayak takeout together, where the arguing continued until the cops had to be called and statements needed to be taken. My guests would be just just guessing here that Silver's went out of his way to find them because he knew where they'd be taken out, right, So I kind of read that as like he's the one that kept the fire stoked here you know what I mean. Um, so you know statements are taken, both parties leave, end of story, right. No, Fisher had kind of forgotten about the whole thing until just a couple of weeks ago when he received word that a grand jury would be prosecuting the case. According to fisher assistant D. A. Todd Hole originally said there wasn't even enough evidence to make a case, but then mysteriously flipped. So the same day that Fisher got this call, he went and turned himself into the law, got fingerprinted, mug shot taken, arrested, the works. Wow. Right, So here's a quote from the piece. At the time of the arrest, Fisher said they didn't even know what to charge him. According to Unicoi County A. D. A. Todd Hall, Fisher was charged with violation of the Hunter Protection Act and taking a fish caught by another. Both are classified as Class C misdemeanors. So now Fisher is due back in court on novem. Silver's faces no charges. And now there are a bunch of water safety experts from all over the place writing in and coming to Fisher's defense saying he did the right thing, like this was a safety issue. And furthermore, a trot line in this particular spot poses much worse safety hazards than a hook in a life jacket. Basically, they're saying Silver should be happy there wasn't worse injury or damage. Right. So there's obviously a lot going on here, but let's start with the act. Okay, trot lining is not legal where I lived, but let's just pretend that it was. Right. If I saw a properly tag trot line, I'd say cool. Someone said a trot line fish fry right on, man, like, I get it. I understand what that is. I understand the culture behind it. Um. If I'm floating down that river and my kid, myself or whoever I was with ended up wrapping that trot line or injured with a hooking them, I'm cutting the trot line, right, I'm just doing what I gotta do. Right, If I floated over it without incident and thought, oh man, that could hurt the next guy that floats down, I'm not cutting the trot line, which some people will say that's not nice. But much like fisher like, I respect the practice where legal and when done properly, But um, if it directly brought harm, or misery to me and mine, I'd cut it and do what I had to do. And I really don't think Fisher and Company would have touched that line had it not legitimately caused an issue for their crew. Like I believe that, yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, I'm inclined to think that it's like hikers finding tree stands or something. You know, A mo of folks, regardless of you know, their own beliefs, as far as the activity goes, won't mess with you, right unless it's like, oh, this is a direct threat, like you said to be in mine right, right, right right, So now onto Silver's um. Even though I think he's being like kind of an asshole about this, I certainly understand his frustration too, And more than anything, I think the deeper issue he's having it isn't the cutting of this line, right, but it's it's it's probably a deep sort of sadness over a loss of tradition due to just the overwhelming amount of people that utilize resources now right, Like I bet that his daddy and grandpa and grandpa ran trot lines, you know, perhaps on this same river, and now what like you have to bow down to all these folks that want to raft and kayak and so on and so forth. Um, and it's like, that's super relatable to me. I have small mouth streams here that I loved growing up, and I won't touch them now during the summer because there are four hundred thousand tubers floating down them, kayakers running them right. Oh dude, I live right next to the Madison Man the bikini You know this pain exactly right? So would you say the bikini hatch? Yeah, that's what we call it when all the tubers come down and bikinis as soon as the weather warms up a little like it? I like it. I like it. But and and I think you could say the same with the Madison. Maybe not, maybe I'm talking out of school. But around here, ten years ago, if I went fishing in the summer, maybe twelve tubers would come down in a day, you know, fifteen people, No big deal. Didn't really hurt my fishing, didn't really spook anything. But not anymore, right, And it's so bad that it makes it unfish herble in the summer, even on a weekday. But unfortunately, as painful as that is, there is nothing that can be done about that. There's nothing that I can do about that. Those tubers and Fisher and all the other kayakers on the Nola Chucky have just as much right to use that water as I do, and and Silver's does. And that can be a really hard pill to swallow, you know, like you can lose sleep lamenting how good something used to be or the way it used to be and how you know it's it's screwed up, you know, as far as you're concerned now. Um So it's kind of like I always try to say, you know, you either piss away time crying about it and pound and sand, or you adapt. I still fish those same rivers. I do it in the early spring, in the fall, right, I find new places to fish. Maybe I fish at night. And to me, as painful as it may be, it can feel like you're, you know, losing a fight or bowing down. That's the road I feel like Silver should take, especially if his trot lines have been cut in this location twelve times, because I think this will just keep on happening, and what are you gonna do? Keep taking people to court? So you know, if he wins this one and Fisher pays a fine or whatever, it's it's probably not going to send the message that he's hoping it will. The next guy who knows nothing about this will come down the river, and if he's gonna cut your trot line's gonna cut your trot line, you know what I mean. So I think getting Fisher in big trouble will not save your future trot line sets Um And ultimately it's kind of a lose lose. But I must say, I think taking this all the way to grand jury, I don't know. I'm I'm curious to hear what you have to say. I think it's kind of stupid. I wouldn't be shocked if it got thrown out um, because Fisher has a mountain of people on his side saying this was a safety issue. He didn't actually take any of Silver's fish that I'm aware of. And I actually feel a little bad for the dude because this is just like eating up a lot of his time, Like this is like a big thing now he has to deal with um. And I feel like it's slightly vindictive, and Silver strikes me as the kind of guy that, out of spite, will just keep running a line in the same spot, almost looking for a fight instead of the catfish, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, man, I gosh, I got like a lot of thoughts about this, but I'm gonna try and like make them succinct here. I feel for Silvers too in a lot of ways. Yeah, you know, and I think that a lot of hunters and fishermen can relate to exactly how Silvers is feeling in that when you are a hunter or a fisherman, to be one of any merrit really, right, you've got to take the time to understand the resource that you're kind of playing, right, Yeah. And and because of that, I think there's this perception that we are more dedicated to the environment that we're experiencing than somebody doing something like kayaking or hiking or are spot on your spot on that's we we feel like we have more right to it, or we deserve to be here more than a weekender, you know. Yeah. And it's it's a tricky thing because like there is part of me that genuinely believes that that is the case. So like the better known I feel that way too, But you have to be practical about it too, you know. Well, then the better part of me is like, Okay, well if I love these spots and these environments. I want everyone to experience them so that they care about them as much as I do, and thus sustain this environment that I'm so passionate. Hey, dude, you just brought up one of the biggest what I would call modern attitudes. You know, like we hear so much about spot burn and not talking about where you are. That's a very modern way of looking at things right now. I think it's debatable whether or not it works. I think it's been proven to work in some instances, not in others. But the whole idea of if more people know, they will care. The question is the guy who's got you know, family has been generations trot lining on a river. He's probably gonna care more than the dude that that rolls out of Nashville, you know once a season or twice a season, hooks up with the raft company, gets sprayed with white water, and goes home. That's just the reality of it. But you're not wrong. I don't think there's a there's it's been proven wrong or right yet, but what you're absolutely right? Yeah, Well sure, I mean, and that's just like kind of like one thought about it. You know, although as soon as I said it, I couldn't help but think about the Salmon River and think about all the good that everybody you know, getting turned onto that has done for the fishery. But I'm saying yes. But but on the counterpoint, though, I think that Silver's is totally messing up the long game here. Yeah, you know, I don't think that this kind of attention is going to do any good for him in in in his fishery, and I would pose it that I don't think it's gonna do good for like traditional forms of fishing like this in the future. Maybe not like this specific instance, but if you know, if ten dudes did the same thing that Silver's was doing, I guarantee you that whatever commission is overseeing that they might be revisiting the rules and regulations regarding trot lines in the future and in such a way that Silver's might not like the outcome. What dude, you dude, you are just like solid on point today because that's you're absolutely right too. You're you're gonna blow up this case right, it's in the news, we're talking about it here on Ben. You know, you have to assume that every year there's probably a lot more guys recreating with with rafts and kayaks for fun on these rivers and other rivers, and and the sort of old school trot lining tradition is going away. Man, you create too many issues here. There's a strong chance that the kayak crowd is gonna win if it gets to that, you know what I mean, and and you are absolutely right. I mean, I'll tell you what, man. You know you see a thousand float to for every drift boat that you see on the Madison. You know, I used to live on the East Codes. Man, I've seen the you know, the Delaware River tubing tours. Many we're out number, dude. And ultimately, if it comes down to signatures on a petition, I'm gonna tell you how those numbers stack up. Yeah, yeah, so dude, I mean again, it's it's kind of a lose lose. I see both sides of this, um. But but let us know right in I'm very curious to hear um your thoughts out there, meaning you listeners, speaking of our listeners. Uh, Joe, I think this next story or how I'm gonna lead into it is gonna hit home for a lot of them if they grew up anything like me. So to kick this off, I got a question for you. Okay, that was a week transition, but go ahead and ask your question, you, Joe. That's fair. That's fair, asked the question. Come on, so what do you think the reason is that every old man tackle box is full of just the same ship. It's like it's like everybody's grandfather like went surf fishing twice, hit a couple of trout openers, did some bass fishing, bought one of those old blue stringers, some snelled hooks, and then just took that weird malcolm of gear and left it in one of just one of those old school blue and tan tackle boxes to like rust into oblivion. It's never logical. It's always like power bait, pyramid sinkers and the guts of some old spin reel, you know what I mean. I dude, Like, as you're saying this, the stal I'm flooded with nostalgia because this was every tackle box my grandfather ever had, and my dad it's like they know with like the compartmental shelf, you know, the plan. Oh, and they'd be like two s I'm in controlling plugs. Then I'm like, why why did you ever need those, and then the snelled hooks, and then like a rubber frog that was mostly rotted out. I know exactly what you're saying, and that is incredibly accurate. I don't know now why it was like that. I don't know, because they just fished occasionally maybe and like didn't feel they needed four billion things like I do. They were probably smarter for it. Yeah, yeah, maybe. Well. I feel like every time I came across one of those as a kid, I thought the same thing, which is how old is this gear? Because it feels ancient? Yeah, I mean, and and it does. Although there's a lot of things in those boxes we've covered here, like the jitterbug as an example. That's a staple of the Grandpa box, still a great lure. We also a long time ago talked about the the smell, the pungent aroma that would come out of a tackle box if it's sad, too long in the sun and had wet stuff in it. So yeah, I I know what you're saying. And it's funny because you still see those old plane o tackle boxes for sale at garage sales and check on Facebook. I don't know anybody who uses one anymore. I don't know a single person that uses a hard tackle box anymore. It's still functional, you know all that the gear lubin power bait. Anyhow, no matter how old your granddaddy's tackle collection is, it pales in comparison to what may well be the most ancient modern fishing tackle to ever have been discovered. M I'm sure you've seen my story, right I I yep, I know, I know where you're going. I dig it. So recently a group of researchers working at a site called and I'm sure I'm going to mess this up the Jordan River dirsya der jersh slippy slappy Sampson nite, let's just go with the j r D. H j r D man, that's jr D. Heard it here? First, a group of researchers, you know me, A group of researchers excavating the j r D, which is essentially a well preserved EPI Paleolithic version of Steve's fish shack. Uh. They found fishing tackle that, after carbon dating, proved to be of the New Tuffian era, or about thirteen thousand years old. UM. This is super interesting for a bunch of reasons. The first of which is how well preserved it was, Like, we know that folks have been catching fish and fishing for much longer than thirteen thousand years, basically forever, right, um, But beyond uh speculation, it's tough to know exactly how these ancient fishermen were going about their craft, right, Uh. Because we know weaving has been prevalent in ancient cultures forever, it's assumed that they use nets and some version of hook and line. But being all of it was made of things like would and plant fiber, you know that stuff doesn't last ten years. Yeah, yeah, exactly, It disintegrates for sure. Right. But because of some conditions unique to this j r D site, uh, specifically it being water logged all the time, some of these early fishing implements were really well preserved, offering us to look into ancient world of fishing that we don't often get. The other interesting facet of this story is how sophisticated. A lot of this gear is, uh, specifically of note. Archaeologists found fish hooks with points and barbs. This was before like you know, the barblous movement, you know, tactical nympson as well as groove cables, which researchers believe we're used as an ancient form of split shot. I'll bet they broke a lot more teeth, you know what I'm saying, Like, I bet because you know dental hygiene. Anyway, I'm sorry, I am genuinely worried about potential lead poisoning from the amount of split shot of crimped with my teeth. Yeah, I chew on it sometimes, just like you know, for fun, just out of habit stick stick a little bb in there and it's like dipping. You ought not to do that. So even more interesting, Uh, the hooks were of various sizes, and some of them had grooves, animal fur and plant fibers. You know, it's still kind of attached or just in there um, suggesting that these ancient folks were making lures. They even found evidence of mother of pearl flashers. Were so stuck in like this modern era of what we have now, and I know this this article sort of it teas it up like that this was like the first evidence of of fly fishing. And I think you're gonna you're gonna get into that a little bit here, but it's it's still pretty fascinating to me because it's so easy to lean on cut bait and live bait. They probably had a lot more of that, So it almost makes you wonder like, did they figure out in certain instances that these these lures we're actually more efficient, right, because they weren't recreationally fishing. These people all fish for food, So it's kind of like, man, was that a better option for some reason? You know, the people back then they did things because they benefited them, you know, so I I found that part very fascinating. Well yeah, I mean when you can't go down to you know, Sports and his warehouse and buy a bunch of shiners, uh, I think that like having reusable lures, uh, probably cuts down on a lot of time. Uh. Maybe they were Epipaleolithic dry fly purs. I mean, granted, it's only nineteen hooks and six pebbles, so it's not like they stumbled on like an ancient pass pro But but looking through the pictures, a lot of this stuff they were doing really is super remarkable. For since a lot of these hooks were what I guess you would consider at the time being of a light gauge. Right, It's not like they were like sixteen dry fly hooks, but you get what I'm saying. Um, carving eyes in hooks of this size would have made for like a weak point. So the researchers speculated that in order to get around that, they instead carved like grooves and and and and knobs at the end of these hook shanks and basically schnelled their hooks. Which schnell did you just pronounced that schnelled? Was? It's just snelled. I like schnelled though it's kind of like Ramstein or Ramstein. Yeah whatever, that's how I say schnell. They sell the hooks and archaeologists also noted that there was evidence of braided fishing line cured with adhesive, which is yeah, just kind of cool. Yeah. An interesting point too about the hook eyes. Um, if you if you look at a lot of things like Sabeki rigs now, like even some of the rigs and things they have over in Japan, if you know how to schnell a hook properly, you actually don't ever need the line to go through the eye, you know what I mean. That's a very strong connection. Um, so that that totally makes sense. Yeah. Anyhow, at the end of the paper, the researchers kind of suggest that phishing tackle hasn't changed much at all, saying that except for the use of metal and plastic, modern fishing has not invented anything new since the Natufian era, which seems a little reductive. Yeah, I mean like Berkeley gulp alone, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, motorized boats, trolling. You know that we could probably go on there if we wanted to do a running list. On one hand, until they dig up an ancient plug with some Antler treble hooks, I'm going to chalk that up to hyperbole. On the other hand, you have to give them credit for arguably inventing the braided line, predecessor to power pro You're right, um. But another funny point about that too that I think a lot of people forget if you go back to the late eighteen hundreds, early nine hundreds, even like through the nineteen fifties, if you needed really strong ship, like like like Hemingway out there fighting Marlon and giant tune and stuff, you use dacron, right, I mean, that's just what they used. And then that kind of gave way to your your monofilaments, and then we sort of came back to braid, which is better than Dacron, but Dacron is still stronger than Mono. All we use Dacron four now is to back your fly reel. Not many people put that on a reel anymore all the time. Do you I hate when I'm backing for that reason? Well, you gotta be more careful. But um, they figured out all those thousands of years ago, Um, that that braided line worked well, and like it's sort of like we we knew that, and then we decided, oh, this is better mono, and then it's like, actually, no it's not, and we're back to that. So they were right all along, is what I'm saying. It's interesting how things go like that. Uh, I'm honestly surprised they didn't find any of those Uncle Josh's pork frogs or like forever. Yeah. I got some jars of MIC's eggs from my childhood. That's like it's like a crystal in there, like you'd see it in a gem shop. Yeah you know what I mean. Yeah. So anyhow, Uh, not exactly as controversial and as juicy as your story. But you know, I figured ancient fishing tackle would play well with our audience and hopefully Phil so we will see. I think I think it plays perfectly. And I'm a vintage tackle freak. Everybody knows that. Um. You know I I seriously contemplated grabbing this story myself. UM, and it's very it's very fitting. I'll tell you why, because we'll go to Phil um see what what floated his boat? Uh? This week? I'm wishing you luck there, but but I might have you. I don't know. I don't want to call my hut, But as soon as we're done hearing from Phil, we're actually gonna do a sale band with our guest co host this week, Zach Miller, who is a vintage tackle freak like me and a flea market junkie like me. And I promise you this is gonna be a good one. Hayden, I'm offended that you would suggest that I would betray the purity of this Fish News competition by selecting winners based on what would set me up for the easiest or best joke. Did I tell you that that's what I do? Yes? I did, But I told you that in confidence, and frankly, only to make you feel better for losing so many times, sort of like how Miles would always come in here with the news bangers week after week, and I just couldn't keep giving it to him, so you know, i'd have to throw Joe a bone every once in a while. So here's the deal, Hayden. You're the winner this week, but now you've got to spend the rest of your life wondering if I liked your ancient tackle story and I thought you deserved this win, or if I'm just taking pity on you. I'll never tell. Why did you put the hand to pay? You don't know what I'm getting. Man, You didn't have to be so hurtful with me, so angry. So with Zach here we have to do a sale bin because you are as much a connoisseur of junk as I am. Like you are a huge proponent of this segment when we started it, and I'm always so jealous because you frequently send me pictures of the ship you find at flea markets in Florida, and if it's fish or fishing related stuff that you like, there seems to be way more of it where you are. I would agree to a degree about that, at least because I am a you know, as much as I prowl flea markets and marketplaces I do get a lot of big scores and hits down here. I feel like there's more volume up there, but people just don't know what the hell they have down here, so it kind of makes it different, right, And but you also have too, it's just a lot more junk. I guess they call them junk stores, Like I'm not. That's not an antique store. It's not all fan See, it's like literally someone just took their garage and bought a storefront in a in a shopping center and threw all their crap in there. And then you also, there's like a pawn shop on every block there too, which we don't have up here. There's not a ton of pawn shops. Oh yeah, the pawn shop is one of like it's part of the charm of South Florida. You know, you can't go somewhere it's like, hey, do you need money for whatever legal substance you know you're gonna partake in tonight on the bridge or at the bar or whatever, and we will give you ten dollars for that outboard engine right now. Dude. The coolest old school finn or spinning reel I ever bought, was it a pawn shop in Florida. Go figure, Um, I also know see you love to haggle like I feel like you enjoy a good flea market dickering session. Yeah that and uh, you know, trying to argue with Carneys at the fair every year when it comes that it's essentially the same thing, so it I don't I don't think it's two different things. You know so well this but this is why we have to do a sale bing. So this week's sale ban item was sent in by my bud, Matt ferrell Um, and it was post did on the private Facebook group Fisherman's Garage Sale and up for grabs is a Mahi mount, which to my eye, yeah, to my eye right, it does not appear to be a skin mount. It looks like a fiberglass replica. Right now, both you and I have skin in the skin mount game. For a time, I was all about buying old skin mounted fish. I was like on this quest and then I ran out of space to hang them in my garage and I stopped buying them. Um, but it was all about the right price, right, And this kind of speaks to what you were saying earlier. People up here tend to think that their mounts are worth stupid money. It's either like stupid lee priced or the guys like give me twenty bucks. Right, So, like you're you're out junking more than me these days. What are your thoughts on the current used fish mount market? What are you seeing out there? You know, being on the streets out here and really getting a feel for what's going on in the skin Mountain, fiberglass mount community. At the junk stores, it's pretty much a hodgepodge of what you described. People either think it's worth more than you know, their grandpa's packer that's been garage kept for eighty five years, or it's you know, you're gonna get a two dollar jackalope, you know, like nobody, nobody really there's like I don't know if there's like a blue book for taxidermy. Is there something like that yet? I really wouldn't know. I stopped with the blue books at the Beckett Baseball card book. I know you did. Anyway, let's we're getting off here. So so the owner of this mahi, which i'd say is like fish squality, it's good fish. He's asking fifteen hundred dollars, right, And here's what the post says, beautiful creation. This is not just a mount. It's the nicest mahi mount you ever did see. And then he goes on, no, I did not smoke drugs before making the price that that is. That is what it is worth to me, because it is perfect and it is mine. And see that's a problem right there. For like, that's a problem. That's the problem with a lot of things. A little bit. I mean, at least he kind of try to get out in front of the drug thing. Um before you know, people started coming down on him in the garage sale here. But like, if I had to describe this, ma hey mount, it's not a skin mount. It doesn't look like a skin mount to me. But I if I had one word to describe this mount, I would say bitching, because the only thing this thing is missing is the flame job. This is a beautiful rendition of what a mokey might look like in your dreams. But not when he gets hit with the gaff in the back of the charter boat. They turned gray real quick, don't they anyway? Yeah, so all right, so the seller continues, I'm moving and don't have room for it. Rather than sit in my garage, I would like to practice catch and release and allow someone else to enjoy the fish, which is, yeah, I am not shipping this thing, and you must send me a picture of the fish once a year period. Next sentence for science. Okay, that's where this makes a turn and gets a little uh, you know, a little summer of Sammy and like you look at this thing and you're like, okay, practice catching release, Like, well, Steve, I got bad news. It's all right, Like there's no more releasing it. Yeah, we already missed, even if it's a replica. I get what you're saying. The id irony is there. So so here's a few top level thoughts. Right, I think he overpaid for this, MOHI, because I guarantee he's just trying to get back exactly what he spent. And guess what, right, do you know how the value of your new boat or brand new car drops like by half the second year, by it. It's the same with mounts, Like I got a tarpen here, I got a tarpen here. You've seen it. That's that's worth like or was worth two grand brand new, And if I was looking to dump it right now, I'd be happy with the first like eight d bucks somebody wagged in my face, right, you know what I mean? The only thing that I can think about, which is what's warning this price? Because he says it is worth to him, right. I know there's a lot of inflation these days, and to be fair, it's a very bright mahi and you know, maybe you know if everything is jacked up thirty three, he's just trying to, you know, give somebody a quality amount of what it would be priced at now. And here's why he doesn't know what he's doing, right, Because my next thought is, um, I once read and I believe this that mahi mahi is the number one most mounted fish ever. And why would that be? Right? Because they're pretty easy to catch and they're super colorful and badass looking. So when you know tourists that only ever caught a blue gill would show up in Florida and stick a mahi, it was real easy for the charter captain to talk him into amount because then they got kickbacks on the taxidermy bill. And I think I've seen more mounted mahi while out junking than any other fish. To me, they are they are a dime a dozen. I've seen a lot of mahire you're that's probably a statistic without even checking that mah He's the most mounted sale. F has to be right there with a missing bill or a portion of its sale missing. I see a ton of those two. But the only thing I can say is, like, if that's what's out on the streets, I feel really sad for all these people that they have not gotten the sales pitch for a canal tuna up to this point. Right, So, if I had to guess, this guy is fawning all over this mahi and throwing out in sane prices because he also just may not be a real angler, and like this could have been the mah he he caught during that troll trip, you know what I mean, his resort put together while they were in Atlantis in the Bahamas um and the wife has always hated it, and how much he's spent on it, and now he's trying to undo those poor decisions. Too bad that the amount of my market is so saturated. But like you're basically trying to convince people your Honda accord is better than the four thousand other Honda accords for sale on Facebook. Right now, That's how I say it. What do you mean you're saying my Honda accords not as good as the other ones. All I know is if there is a Mahi market bubble and it's getting ready to pop, this guy is gonna be on the frontline of that resurgence. I got three of them too, in the attic and one of the garage. So man, I'm what are you doing? You have three grand sitting in your attic right now, easily easily easily Anyway, Matt, thank you for sending that brother. That was a really, really fun one, impertinent one for this episode. Remember, if you find some wacky fish or fishing related junk for sale on your online classified platform of choice, tackle whatever it may be, fire that link off to Bent at the meat eater dot com. So hammertime is slowly drawing to a close here, but it's been a lot of fun, at least I think. So I had a lot of fun having fun. Sure, sure, it depends who you talk to. Like I said, how am I supposed to follow up dudes who got stabbed by Pantera went to Pantera? Like, I can't do this. That was a fan. Miles didn't get stabbed at Pantera. He might have been the guy stabbing that guy could have been. I don't know. I doubt it though. Um. Anyway, So before we go, one other thing, right, since we're on this Florida theme, Um, I know that another thing you were really into is waiting for sea trout. Right, that's another one of your your many jams. Here's sharkein bay boats and waiting sea trout. Right, Yeah, man, many hats here, But waiting sea trout when it's cold, I would like to say, if it is one of my jams, I'd consider it more of a slow jam, because you've gotta really slowly creep those baits on the bottom right right. But speaking of those baits, I also know you're too cool to go buy a bucket of live shrimp to do it. You are anti live scrimps, that's correct, yes, sir, So just in case you are as anti live shrimp as Zack here, I've got a lower suggestion for you in this week's end of the line segment that's not only a classic but keeps up that true Florida theme. Well, that's not loud enough. There are very few inshore species in Florida that won't eat a live shrimp or a fresh dead shrimp for that matter. A Florida tackle up that can't maintain a constant supply of shrimp could be in trouble. But in the eighties, well known captain Mark Nichols had a thought, between the demand for shrimp and environmental concerns that were threatening shrimp habitat, what would everyone do if the day came when suddenly nobody could get live shrimp. At the time, there were some shrimp imitators on the market, but nobody spoke particularly highly of them. Somewhere simply heavy rubber shrimp tails you'd stick on a jighead and they looked okay, but they swam all wrong. Shrimp have a very specific movement in the water. Their legs undulate and they tend to just lazily ride the current, sort of floating around at different levels of the water column. Nichols realized that creating a lure that looked like a shrimp was easy, but having it behave naturally in the water to truly trick and trigger all the shrimp eaters from Florida to Texas was not, But he was determined to make it happen. Nichols never intended to sell his shrimp creation, which took years to perfect, but when he realized just how effective it was, d O A lures and the famed d O A shrimp were born in the early nine nineties. The d O A shrimp has since become a staple on the coast from the outer banks all the way around to Padre Island, Texas. And the funny thing about it is it doesn't look like it would catch anything. Compared to other modern soft plastics, the d O A shrimp looks too stiff. It's anatomically correct to a degree, but looks more like a basic cad drawling of a shrimp than the real thing. They come pre rigged and waited, and while the lure may look simple, the engineering is not. Now there are several variations of the d O A shrimp on the market these days, but it's the O G model that's the most well known and trusted. It's perfectly precisely waited in balance to fall slowly and always stay horizontal like a live shrimp. While the tail may seem too stiff and the legs too stubby, Nichols designed them to constantly vibrate and flutter, further enhancing the ruse. The lords shine the brightest entitle current, and whether you fish them under a popping cork or solo, most of the time what you want to do is nothing, keep contact, take in line, and just let the shrimp hover out there in the zone. As Nichols says in many of his tutorial videos, you've just got to let the shrimp do its thing. You can't work it to death. My introduction to the d o a shrimp came on the first trip I ever took to fish the Florida back country when I started my career in the fishing industry, and we were targeting snook and redfish near Fort Myers, And it was so long ago that I hate to admit I don't even remember the guide's name. But we rolled up to a channel between two mangrove islands and he handed me a rod rigged with a float that had a very tattered brown d o a shrimp hanging below it. Just cast up current close to the mangroves. Let it drift, he told me. So I did, and it didn't drift more than twenty ft before getting smoked by the first snook I ever caught. I ended up catching a pile more that day and came to find out later that while the leader had been changed a whole bunch, the particular shrimp I was using had been in rotation for two full seasons. Not only did Nichols want a lord that caught fish, not fisherman, but he made them affordable and durable, which is why I know so many Florida anglers that will not throw any artificial shrimp besides the d o A. And it's not like they don't have options, right, I mean, nowadays, companies like Live Target and Savage Gear make shrimp so realistic that if you mix them in a pile of fresh shrimp at the seafood market, nobody would be able to spot the fake. But I don't know a single seasoned die hard, trout, snook and redfish guy in Florida or elsewhere along the Gulf Coast that would take over a d o A. By the way, Northern listeners, while we're not so shrimp relying up here, as the Florida boys are, drift a d o A shrimp along a jetty during the fall striper run or feed one back along those sod banks were bass and weak fish. Lurk and tell me what happens that is it for this week. If you're currently planning a Florida vacation, remember if the catch of the day at Mickey's House of Crab is Mercury missile, order that ship. The maid is only pushing you to have that Mahi Mountains. Who can buy another pair of coasters with the kickbacks? And if you're looking to score the coveted jailbreak Slam, this winner called Captain Zach Hammer Miller of throw Down Fishing Charters and take a ride on the Mickey Craft Live Shrimp not included. Wow, what a ringing endorsement. I'm just too cheap to even shell out the bait here. But you know, at the end of the day, I guess this was kind of fun. I enjoyed our time together. Uh you know, it's been a long time coming. And I appreciate all the shout outs for the three people who obviously a brain injuries who requested me to co host with Joe one day, Like, I hope you guys are the same people who are gonna spend money with me this wintertime doing uh looking for convicts in the jailhouse Slam Jailbreak, Well, you have to pick up the phone and take the call if they call, and and and let them on the boat if if they do. Anyway, I appreciate you being here this week, my brother. I hope all the fans out there that called for me to drop the hammer got their fixed until next week. Keep those sailbing items, bar nominations, awkward photos, voice memos, and all that's good stuff coming to Bent at the Meat Eater dot com. And remember to use that beast up hashtag when you post that photo of your first gum was dast vestas by