00:00:02 Speaker 1: We spent weeks making our own or Gasmo and showed the boy outfits. It was like one of those situations where I was like, you know, common sense to tell you, like, you don't put water on the inside of what you're trying to keep out, you know what I mean. And then as they say you have to al mauny bang the left at the canal and you go all the way to Buffalo. It's orange, black, furry and wiggly, kind of like a demonic mega. Good morning, degenerate Anglers, and welcome to Bent, the podcast that hands out full size muskie plugs on Halloween, not tin split shot like your cheap bass neighbor. I'm Joe Surmelli, Miles Nulty, and one of us is really excited about it being Halloween tomorrow. Damn right, I am. I did Halloween, And to be really honest, man, like, beyond it being so fun because I now have kids that are the perfect age to get really jacked up on Halloween, I'm not even really sure why I love it so much, but I guess it's it's somehow I was thinking about, like like the punk metal holiday for some reason, and I don't know, and I'm also kind of in horror flicks. But um, as I think we're gonna learn today, Halloween does nothing for you. If I'm not mistaken, No, I'm I'm not a huge fan. You know. The final nail in my hatred for Halloween coffin came mid twenties, late twenties something like that. After after losing a costume contest, right, so, a buddy of mine and I we spent weeks. We had this great idea and we spent weeks making our own or Gasmo and showed the boy outfits like, yeah, I was Orgasmo, he was Chow the boy. And for those of you who don't know what I'm referring to, you need to go watch the movie or Gasmo right now. Just do it anyway, not with not with the child, no, no children at all. Definitely adults only. Uh. But like, those costumes were on point, and we worked our butts off and then we go to like the big costume contest at one of the bars out here, and we took second place to a group of ladies dressed as scantily clad sheep. And that was it for me. I was done. I'm done with this whole holiday, Like I tried once and what didn't work. I like how you said scantily clad sheep because I know even creative. Oh man, you are bitter, so bitter. That's a shame. Ah Man, you know it's not bitter Black Rifle Coffee and quick reminder that Ben is fueled by Black Rifle coffee. In fact, we've got so much of it that if you trick or treat at my house, I might stick a few of their instant coffee bags in your plastic punking or give a shot of their extra dark murdered out to your kids, just to make bedtime more difficult. Oh, I feel sorry for anybody trick or treat at Joe's house. Do yourself a favor and head over to Black Rifle Coffee dot com slash meat Eater, get on their subscription service, or or are just a few bags of their premium roasts and enter the promo code meat Eater to get off your order. Yeah, do all those things. It's like candy for grown ups. Man, I gotta tell you, And I also gotta tell you. Over the last few weeks, we've gotten quite a few notes from you guys asking if we plan to do a Halloween special and the answer is yes, sort of. I'd say we've at least, you know, rubbed enough candy corn behind our ears to give this episode a Halloween essence at least is how I'd put it. And for the record, I was skeptical, right I was. I was, But then Joe got ahold of some historical gems that completely changed my mind. We cannot actually tell you how we came to be in possession of these clips, but it turns out that in the eighties and nineties, Bill Dance actually tried moonlighting as a horror film actor, and he got surprisingly far. Unfortunately, all of Bill's test reads ended up on the cut of Room Lord. But as you may have already guessed, we got exclusive permission to air them right here for you. Yes we do, and we're gonna be peppering those throughout the show. Okay, and remember you heard it here first. And if you're shaking your head in complete disbelief right now, believe it. Believe it's real. Believe it. And here's Bill reading for the two classic Poltergeist. How are you this morning? M doing? Okay? What do you girl? More purple and brown? Kind of a purple loot? Keep that bite in one spot. What do you look for in a good bite cash and rod when you're on a fixed income. So let's seems like Bill is a little limited in his in his range. Um. Anyway, that's one of many exclusive bill It's horror flick reads to come. But let's move on to a very very special regional report. Yeah it is. We actually have a celebrity on the show today, for real, this time, not like the other celebrities we have on this show. Right after we first launched Bent, we got a note from Mike Williams, who started in the little cult classic movie you might remember, The Blair Witch Project. Yeah, and this is this is a true story. We're not bullshit and we're not making this up for Mike. Yeah for once, maybe never again, but believe us. Now, Okay, Mike is is the guy standing in the corner of the basement at the end of the movie. That is what that That scene still creeps me out. That was that was well done. Anyway. Turns up, Mike lives in New York State and he's a hardcore fly angler. He sent an email to Bent at the meat Eator dot com just to say he was digging our show and offering to help out. We noodled on that for weeks and came up with nothing. We're like, how are we gonna work this into the show. And we were talking about it with our buddy and colleague Sam Londren, who threw out this great idea, and we're like, yes, that's it, We're doing that. So so what we did was we asked Mike to list and explain his five favorite trout flies for his local streams. Easy, right, very easy. But because we're complete dicks, we said, you have to record this information while running through the woods in the pitch dark allah blair Witch and I was like, there's no way, Mike st I told you guys. It was like, there's no way Mike's going. But he was in. He was all about it. So here's Mike Williams from the blair Witch Project giving you his five top trout flies while legitimately running through the woods at night. Take eyes all right? So for the Croton Riverous System, Hounded Golden top five flies, Croton's up for your Putton Valley buppa Westchester. So I wanted to start with a Cadis said, Cadis, you can't go wrong with it. Any time year Brown, Cadis Page cats green, Catos Bray. I don't care, but you gotta carry catos not Also, oh god, David's right anyway, a sulfur gotta have a sulfur, A merchant for summer, Cassie June's why, definitely a sulfur us on top of that. I would do right, I would do a light Oh. I like Hey Hill, Ok, I like Hey Hill during the summer. To the fish here, I love that. And of course hairs here in the Pheasant Hill. You don't carry that. You don't carry that, damn it. Well, then you don't know what you're doing and you're gonna apply Fisherman. I hope this helps tight lines. Gotta oh man, Mike, We thank you for that. Man. You were such a good sport. Thanks for reaching out. And you guys should follow Mike on the instagrams. He's at sipping rises. Thank you, Mike, And we're sorry, but but not really because that was funny. Moving on, it's time to continue the theme of making people uncomfortable, this time with our smooth move segment where we let guides and Charter Captain's bitch about stupid things their clients have done. Yeah, and we're gonna throw it back to what I call the upper d session. A few months ago and I spent a few days at the Guide Shack and the Cat Skills with some good friends, including our amigo Marty Ye, who has a story for us today, so frightening. It's guaranteed to make you lose control of all your bodily functions. But before we kick it over to Marty, just to set the mood, here's Bill Dance in the Exorcist twitch Twitch Twitch Twitch Twitch polishitch Twitch. Why all right, we've got an on location smooth Moves. I am sitting in one of my favorite places, the official guide check of Cross Current Guide service on the Upper Delaware River on the p a New York boarder sitting here with our good friend and guide Marty Y. Hi Marty, how are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm terrific. It's good to see you in person. In person, I feel like our relationship is more digitally, very digital. It's very text based, text based relationship. But here we are, we're hanging out and doing some fishing, So why not record a smooth moves with you? How how long have you been a guide Marty remind me, So I'm relatively new in that sense. This is my fourth year. I'm on my fourth season. Okay, but four years is enough time to see some ridiculous shit. Oh yeah, I mean for the amount of days that that we're out, it's yeah, we see a lot of people, a lot of situations, a lot of weird things. You guys get a lot of New York City clientele and stuff. You pull people from all over the place, all over So hit me, man, what's the one that sticks out in your mind that's like that. I just don't believe that ship just happened. Yeah. So this was actually my first year. I was very new, like very green cherry and maybe when have been like my one of my first trips really, and I think about it. So this guy, the real nice guy comes up. He's from somewhere downstate and uh, he's somewhat new to fly fishing. He's trying to get back into it. So we we talk and he's like, you know, I need I don't have waiters, I don't have geared. That's fine. I'm like I got everything. What size are you? How perfect? I got my old backup pair you can wear so it's fine. Everything is great. We meet up, we're out on the water. We actually have a pretty decent day, like for you know, for my first year guiding considered and and he's not a great you know at the time, wasn't a grading um. But you know, we we schooled. I schooled him up. We got on some fish and then you know, throughout the day, I always check with people. It's like, hey, do you need to take a leak? Do you want to step out? Stretch your legs? So I realized we're like an hour like six of the day and the guy hasn't taken a piss once. And I'm like, okay, I can I can do that. Yeah, you know, it was a little bit older in Asian and I take that into consideration. So I'm like, dude, you know, do you want me to pull over? Do you want to like take a league? He's like no. Throughout the days like I'm good. I'm like, okay, go out the day, stick a couple more fish, you know, eat lunch, hanging out. Finally again back to like our six seven, I'm like, all right, so you need to piss because I'm gonna get out and piss. And he's like I've been pissing, and I laughed. I was like, I was like, ha ha ha, and he was like, no, I've been pissing in the waiters and I was like, excuse me. He's like, oh, is it not like a wet suit. I'm like absolutely, And you know, these are my old foots. They were They were boot foot actually, so he was just filling his boots and he he thought it was like a wet so he thought like, well, I don't know, maybe it's a wet suit or dry suit either one. You're not supposed to pee in wet suits either. I don't know. I don't I'm not I don't dive or anything. But it turns out he just like, I'm sure he went a bunch of times and then he felt he felt so bad. But you know, it was like one of those situations where I was like, you know, common sense will tell you, like you don't put water on the inside of what you're trying to keep out, like you know what I mean. Yeah, So it turns out the guy ends up buying those waiters he acquired that. Yeah, that's one of many stories I've had in the last couple of years. Dude, that's so gross gross, How uncomfortable is that to fish all day and you're just pissing. Sure, you've had water in your waiters exactly, like just getting water down your waiters. I know, like when I have a leak in my winters. Instantly I'm like, there's there's a leak in my winters, and I'm like, I don't want these anymore waters. Immediately, this guy just didn't give a ship. He's just pissing. Essentially, he was pissing his pants too, because he remember, he was still wearing like I don't know whatever pants like shorts or jeans, whatever he was wearing underneath, So he was still urinating, like in his underwear and pants as well as inside of my backup waiters. You know what, all right, people are gonna be all over this guy, like I can, I can, I'm already here. Or imagine the feedback we're gonna get. People can be like, what could have dumbhass pisces and waiters. Uh, I can see how this might happen, all right. For for folks who know wet suits, you're supposed to piss in them. That's part of the deal. That's what you do. Wait. Wait, weights wait, are you, Yes, you weren't supposed to piss in your wets You don't piss in dry suits. You do piss in wet suits. Yes. In fact, particularly if you're in cold water, pissing and wet suits is like what you look forward to because it's a little little jolt of heat all over your body, right, and and so I can imagine someone who's only been in wet suit and it's the first time, and waiters might assume that it's the same. You know, let's call it evacuation protocol, all right. But that said, how miserable would it be to marinate in your own urine all day? To me? I mean, it's just terrible to me mad. But I'm also that dude, like I get a drop of barbecue sauce on my share and I want to change it immediately. So I couldn't. I couldn't just like fish in piss filled waiters all day. Just Icky, We're gonna we're gonna stick with the theme of Ikey, which you know, Halloween and Nikki. That's what we got for you. Joe's got a book for us this week. Yes Joe can read, Yes, yes he can. It's almost time for freaking philistines, where we choose a book like an actual book with printed words and everything that we feel is worthy of your time and attention. This one fits the Halloween and horror flick motif. We are entering the world of large pred it is, which is apparently something Bill Dance knows all about, because here he is in The Predator. There's something out there waiting for us, and it ain't old Man. He's big as a thorny was, but he's a good one. He just looked big then in that water. But but unlike the somewhat racist depiction of the alien in that movie, the Predator in the book Joe is going to tell us about was actually real and much bigger and badder than anyone could imagine. So listen up and get ready to put down your screens and read. You're freaking philistines. What'sst It's a guy who doesn't care about books or interesting films and things. I have been obsessed with sharks since I was a tiny little kid. When I turned teen, I couldn't run to the tattoo polar fast enough to get a great white inked on my leg. So it should be no surprise that Jaws is my all time favorite movie and in my opinion, the greatest phishing movie of all time. But what many people don't realize is that Jaws was inspired by a very real reign of shark terror that occurred along the Jersey coast in the summer of nineteen sixteen, and Hooper, played by Richard Dreyfuss, even references those attacks in Jaws. And while it may not be a fishing book per se, anyone who loves sharks or Jaws or fishing for nasty predator fish really needs to read Michael Capozo's Close to Shore. It is the most detailed, beautifully written account of the events that took place that summer, and it it's it's by far my favorite work of historical nonfiction. A right Close to Shore reads like an adventure novel, and what makes this adventure all the more fascinating is the period of time in which it's taking place. This is the final summer before the US entered World War One. Vacationing at the beaches was just really growing in popularity. Because train lines could carry folks from New York and Philadelphia to the coast pretty quickly, it was easier to get there, and just as it is now in modern times, the beach was a safe, happy, care free environment, which makes the juxtaposition of these brutal attacks much starker. The first victim, twenty year old Charles van Zante, was attacked on July one, nineteen sixteen, while his parents watched in sheer horror from the beach, and van Zante was swimming with his dog in front of the Ingleside Hotel in beach Haven, New Jersey. And Capuzzo describes the attack in truly blood curdling detail, and Charles was actually rescued and made it to the beach alive, but the shark had just done a number on his leg and it severed his femeral artery. You know. His father, who was actually a doctor, rushed him to the hotel office, agonizing because they knew they'd never get him to the closest hospital, about twenty miles away in time, so they made a makeshift operating table out of the office door. But despite their best efforts and with limited supplies, Charles died of shock and massive hemorrhaging at the hotel. Now, the passage that follows charles death really sets the tone for the rest of the book, and you can see just how closely it mirrors the plot line of Jaws. That evening, a hush fell over the Angleside dining room, But after dinner hotel guest cornered fisherman and bayman and other wise and veterans of the shore, who drifted on and off the veranda all night long. The red trails of pipes and cigars waved in the night, and the number of people who had witnessed the attacks seemed to grow by the hour. Robert Angle tried to remain stoic and calm as reporters from Philadelphia newspapers scuttled about the lobby and veranda, questioning his guests. Disagreements and arguments broke out, until finally a consensus emerged of suspects in young van Zandt's death. A giant tuna, a shark, but most likely a giant sea turtle, which had the power the fisherman said to snap a man in half. The attending physician had a different opinion. He recorded the primary cause of death on van Zandt's death certificate as hemorrhage from femoral artery left side, with the contributory cause being bitten by a shark while bathing. It was the first time a shark bite had appeared as an official cause of death in U s history. Seeking to reassure his guests, Angle stood and declared bathers had nothing to worry about. The Next morning, the hotel would erect a netting around the beach strong enough to block German U boats swimming in the clear paradisal waters of Angleside would go on as usual, but a somber mood pervaded the Ingleside that evening, as one by one the hundreds of room lights that cast out over the shore winked out. A new and nameless fear had seized the guests, a fear the unknown as well as a fear of the sea. Even those who watched the attack had little notion of what they had witnessed, except to agree, as W. K. Barkley told whoever would listen, Mr. Van Zandt's death was the most horrible thing I ever saw. That scene sets the tone for the entire rest of the book, and of course, more attacks followed after van Zandt, which set off a media frenzy and hysteria that ultimately led to Shark Hunt's coastwide, with everything from rifles to nets to dynamite, debating hooks with cow lungs, and interestingly, and while I don't want to give too much of the ending away, the culprit remains a mystery and is still debated to this day. Was it a white shark or was it a bull shark? And Capuozo does a terrific job of breaking down all sides of the argument towards the end of the story. But the most important takeaway from Close to Shore is that without these attacks from nineteen sixt there probably would have been no jaws. These events single handedly created the mindset that sharks are vicious killers that need to be feared, which sadly still persists today with many people, despite time and science debunking the idea that sharks are ferocious man hunters. Now that your blood is fully curdled, let's shift from a history lesson to current events, it's time for fish news. Fish news that escalated quickly, so here we go. This is the part of the show where we fill you guys in on the most pertinent fish or fishing related news we think you good people need to know about, or in some cases we just give you whatever we could find this week that somehow loosely connects to the overriding theme of fishing that we try to maintain. Uh as a reminder, this is a competition. At the end of news are tremendously talented and rather good looking audio engineer Phil will Claire and News winner. And I gotta say, like, we don't we don't take this lightly, you know what I mean. I'm scared like this. It's it's every week. It's like stepping into a cage match. And while while I may be heavier, Miles is faster and more nimble, and Phil has great hair. Let me just point that out. But you know, this takes bravery people, similar i'd imagine to the bravery that Bill Dance had to muster when he encountered Jason Vorhees for the first time in Friday thirteenth, Part eight, Jason takes Manhattan. And do we have a clip of that lined up? Phil? I believe we do. Here's what that sounded like. What you gonna do? Huh, she's gonna do? Huh show off a little So I think I think I think Miles is about to show off a little bit. How do you because because how do you follow up Bill dance doing that? I don't know, but you're the leadoff man thrust to the shoulder, So you got I got, I got every center here. Huh. So Okay, despite my admitted disdain for Halloween, I'm leading off with kind of a little like a sort of spooky story. Start off fish news this week, all right. Dan Boudrey was fishing an undisclosed location near Paris, Tennessee, recently, which is just a nice way of him saying that he doesn't want all you jerk nuts coming to his fishing hole. But considering what happened to him, I don't know that I would fish the spot even if he had named it, or I did live within driving distance of Paris, Tennessee. Anyway, Dan was fishing a jointed crank bait from shore when he hooked into a respectable little large mouth bass. Nothing nothing to crawl about, nothing, nothing's gonna win any contest, but not a dink decent, you know, he's a bass, nice everyday bass. Anyway, Dan brings in his bass and as he goes to remove the hook, he sees the head of a live and riding snake looking up at him from inside the bass's mouth. Okay, all right. From the look of the photo that Dan posted, I'm guessing he freaked out at that point and then just like drop the fish, which is like a totally understandable reaction. But I say that because in the shot, both the bass and the crank bait are just covered in dirt and there's like like fallen leaves like stuck to the back of the bass. It's the classic dirt shot you see like people Griffin grant on On on Instagram, and it's like the fish is just covered in leaves. It's like an I'm like, that's like a pet peeve of mine. Dunked the damn thing back in the water for a second. But in this case, I think it's totally valid. Like normally I hate on the dirt shot, but this one, I'm not skulled Cam. I'm scalding all the other people and they're like what I got this weekend. I'm like, it's a pile of dirt and leaves. Oh. But like when you look at the picture, I get it again because you don't notice the dirt fish. What you notice is the snake front and center sticking out of the bass's gullet. And and supposedly writhing around inside of its mouth. But good news for Dan, the fish was hooked on the outside of the jaw, which you can also clearly see in the photo. The front treble is hooked on the outside of of the fish is mandible, so he was able to retrieve his lure without ever putting his fingers into striking distance because again, this fish, the snake rather, was alive at this point. Even even better news for Dan and the bass, the snake was identified as a northern water snake, not the more dangerous water moccasin, which share habitat and range and look pretty similar. But you know, like you don't know in that moment. Well, yeah, like you have no idea. And and while water stay you can grow over four ft long, they're not poisonous, so Dan was never in any real danger. But again, like I said, he didn't know that at the time. Dan told a local reporter quote, I'm new to Tennessee, so I'm not real familiar with the look of venomous species here. Dan successfully released the bass after snapping those those photos. So the only real loser in this story is the snake, who was i mean assumedly digested by the bass after it got let go. Well, I could go way off on a water snake misidentified as a poisonous snake story that my mom ended up having to kill with a shovel, But that would take too long. That would take too long. So I'm gonna attack on a few more things. One. I've been to Paris, Tennessee, Okay, and it's like the catfish Capital of Tennessee or something like that. But I was there. I was hanging out on the property of Hank Williams Jr. With Hank three and I caught a bunch of crop ees out of out of Hank Williams pond before he kicked us off the property. That's another story. I don't have time are right now, but I think the overriding thing here that I take away from this the most. That's what I was wondering. What kind of snake is it? That's a big question. But besides that, how many times over the years have you seen somebody it's actually pretty recently trying to push a snake lure savage gear. I believe it was only a couple of years ago at at eye cast. They're big release and of course they're the ones that are always like making the bats and the baby panda and the most deal they're big thing was a snake. And even way before that, I've got old soft plastics in the garage. I don't even remember what companies, but they're they're like molded garter snakes. And then then these people that like really try and push that as a food source, like like you need to be doing snake same time, but yeah, same time, dude. How many hundreds of thousands of snakes have I watched swim across ponds and ditches and I have never seen one get eaten, So, I mean, I know it happens, but that's every time I see the snake in the fish mouth thing. That's what I think is that they're actually people out there trying to promote that and tell you, like you gotta use more snake. They eat these things all time. They do this all the time, and I'm not so convinced. I think it's like duck nungs. I think it's pretty rare. It happens occasionally. Um, there's a great video out there somewhere of someone doing a homemade snake bait like rattlesnake bait and getting the giant rainbow trout on one. But just because it has happened and someone cut on camera doesn't mean that it's the thing that you should be chasing for your bite. That's what I'll say. I the reason that I gravitated to the story was really just like Dan was such a relatable character to me. Is like, I don't know what's just happened, but I got a best and there's a snakehead sticking out and is looking at me, and I didn't know what to do, and and so really, for me, the reason that what sold me on this story was Dan. So thank you, Dan. I feel like you're someone I could hang out with. I feel the same way. I love Dan. I love the story. And it's kind of like a little theme as of late, because I did not grab this as a news story. But there's also the one going around in the Dude is just chief in on that alligator but it's coming up out of dark water. He doesn't know what it is, and he's just cranking on the out of the boat and like Heathen, all of a sudden, that head pops up. So there's been like some some fishing, reptile uh things things happening just in time for Halloween. Just in time for Halloween. I don't have a Halloween tie here. I have to go history lesson. But I know you're gonna like this story. Uh. This one comes to us from Discover magazine dot com headline how old family fishing photos unlock the history of Atlantic fisheries. Damn it? Oh it happened twelve episodes. I just jacked your ship, didn't I You just jacked my ship. Man, Ah, it was gonna happen. Oh man, you just got me. But I guarantee that I have a whole whole side bar of this that you didn't cover. So I'll just follow you up. You go right on ahead. Oh man, Well, history just got made for I said, is a history lesson? History just got made? You're listening to it right now. The first the first news clash. Is this the story that you thought I would grab? No, I thought you were going to get the snake Bass one. That's why I left that one, because that's that's more of a me story and I didn't even see that one. Well, I have to continue where the clock is running, my friend. Uh. Anyway, this story centers around Rusty Hudson, which is a badass name. I gotta sneak that in there. Rusty Hudson. Very cool name anyway. Rusty grew up in Daytona Beach, Florida, and he's been in the fishing industry his whole life. Starting at age nine, he was the bait boy on his grandfather's charter boat, whose name happened to be Captain Jake Stone. Also a hell of badass name. Just an observation like, is this a real family just a bunch of badasses? Yeah? Yeah? Are they a real family or characters from Roadhouse? I'm really not sure, but I digress there. So Rusty worked on family fishing boats all through the sixties, and one of his many jobs as a young man was taking photos of the clients with their catch at the end of the day. Add up all those years and it's a ton of photos, right, And here's where it gets interesting from the story. Years later, the historic photos are providing more than just memories of a fun day fishing on the water. Hudson realized how valuable his family photos could be in recreating the catch from the nineteen forties through seventies, a time before scientific monitoring programs collected data on recreational and four higher fisheries, and he says, I felt the four higher pictures of the past could illustrate the range of fishing conditions and catches to fishery scientists and managers. Um and Hudson says knowing more about the fisheries of the past could help us all better understand the health of fish populations today, and this notion ultimately led to the creation of the fish Tery Project. And the story says it started after Rusty took part in the stock assessment for red snapper in the South Atlantic and during that time he showed scientists in the program these hundreds of historic photos he had, and that kind of kick started the discussion. But it takes a lot of manpower and a lot of time to analyze all these photos. It's a huge job. So there's a big group out there, some of you may have heard of it, South Atlantic Fishery Management Council, and those folks are responsible for the conservation and management of fisheries in federal waters from North Carolina through the Florida Keys. And they created something called the Citizen Science Program and that works with fisherman, scientists and managers to co create citizen science projects that aligned with s A f m c S research needs. So this citizens Science program teamed up with Hudson and Noah fishery scientists to create a project to work with volunteers what they're calling citizen scientists, and they are the ones that are now analyzing all of these historic photos. So Fisheries all online based volunteer program. Anyone of any skill level can can join the fund because even if you know a little about fish, they have programs within the program to teach you how to identify all the different species, and they identify and count them. Each photo is analyzed by more than one volunteer. If there's a big discrepancy, it gets kicked up to experts, and um, I think it's the part where we're we're gonna since now I know we have the same story, Like I think the follow up to this where we may differ on. But but Hudson calls us a dream come true and believes the analyzing of these photos can can inform future science. And to be clear, this only started last May, so it's right now it's only Hudson's hundreds of photos that are being analyzed, but there are over volunteers. They've made over thousand classifications. There are still hundreds of photos to analyze, and if this works, then the team hopes to expand it to collect photos from other fishermen and stakeholders all across the South Atlantic. Now, on the surface, I think this is super cool and bravo on the idea, and I think we both. I mean, I I just love looking at old fishing photos, so so this is great and I feel like kind have a jerk kind of, but I gotta say that I also think this is flawed a bit, and I'm not entirely certain this is as valuable as as Rusty hopes. But before I go on, since since I know we've crossed over, I'm gonna let you jump in, like, what what are your thoughts on the whole thing? So I had a different lead to this because I think you missed some of the historical context on this one, okay, And that's where I think this actually becomes valuable and interesting, right, And I think I think I think it. We need to start by saying, like, we like a good grip and green photo as much as anyone else, right, Like we except maybe Lance V. We like a good grip and green photo as much as anybody you might meet. But and in fact, in fact, just just a little heads up here, we've got a whole segment devoted to grip and grins that's gonna come up after fish News. But like, I love the idea that the grip and groen photos have the potential to to do like actual good in the world. So that's that's the first part of the story that I appreciate, is like finding something yes, substant ofly good about gripping grins because people love to hate on them so much, and and this is the way of being like, oh you hate gripping grins, look at this science. Yep. Also, I love citizen science. It's something I'm really big on. But there's some there's some some history here that I think it's really important. And so give me a chance to set up where I think I might maybe be able to change your mind about the validity of this. Okay, well do you do you want to hear my like the end of my argument before before we're duking it out double double duking out today. But I'll just say again, if I miss something, shame on me. But the thing is, like I feel like this works because you've got this guy that's got hundreds of photos from the same docks from the same area for all those years. But that's not an easy thing to find elsewhere. It's not easy to find a vast collection of fish photos from a given area over this massive date range, which I feel like, if you're actually gonna pull any useful data from a study like this, do you need to have what he has? And in my mind, it's also like we already we know stocks are declining, we know that that's a given. But if you had like Captain's log data on c tempts for all those years, weather patterns, how much bait they were seeing? Okay, but I don't know. I I read it as they're just I ding and counting fish for the most part, because what else do they get out of a photo? And you know, Rusty had said these photos helped capture a range of fishing conditions. How like I am I missing something? Yeah? So here's this isn't the first time this has been done, and this is this is where I think, this is what I where I see the value in this. Okay, So let me let me start with a little bit of background. The term shifting baseline syndrome was coined to describe humans general inability to measure long term changes in our natural environment. Right, because because individuals only live for a short period of time in comparison to the life of a species, it's very difficult for us to accurately assess long term changes in the world around us. Right. Whatever you experienced throughout your life dictates your baseline for normal, but that baseline resets or shifts with the next generation. Right, So like when when when you're like, hey, grandma had a great I had a great day to day, I caught like six travoli and two puffer fish and a barracuda, and Grandma's like, that's not a great day. That's terrible. When I was your couldn't do that an hour And they're all bigger than the ones you got. And now I know too many grandma's talk to because they're like, oh, ye had a good day. Yeah you think that was a good day, I'll tell you what a good day. And and the thing is, in that case, you're both right. It's just the concepts of good or pristine they get reset generationally, and that's where we get this idea of the shifting baseline syndrome, and that's become a central tenant across the natural sciences. Right. Researchers recognize that that our planet and the populations of plants and animals that live here have changed dramatically in the past hundred and fifty years, but we as individuals don't generally notice those changes because they happen too slowly. Right and and this this concept is a big deal these days. Uh and and a lot of our listeners have probably heard of it. But the thing is what we're talking about right now with Rusty. This has happened before. Fishing played a major part in people coming up with the idea of the shifting baseline theory. It was originally put forth by a fisheries biologist named Daniel Pauly. Back in Paully proposed that our fish stocks had declined far more than the research was able to recognize, and that we needed to look at or the scientists needed to look at anecdotal historical evidence to really understand how much things have changed. By anecdotal historical evidence, he was proposing that scientists need to put stock in things that they had traditionally ignored. Right, we don't have the scientific measured data going back that far and all these things, so people people were looking at them, so we got to use what we have. And in this case it's like stories from old timers and and photographs and like he even proposed using old menus and so one of the seminal follow up papers on this theory is called Documenting the Loss of Large Trophy Fish in the Florida Keys through Historical Photographs. It's author, Lauren mcclenachan, proposed that quote, historical photographs provide visual and quantitative evidence of changes in mean individual fish size and species composition for groups of marine fish that have been targeted by sport fishing. So he looked at Key West bragboard charter photos from nineteen fifty six to two thousand seven, and what he found was pretty damn shocking. Mean fish size declined by over eighty eight percent, and the charters went from catching lots of large predators like big groupers and sharks two primarily small snappers. So this is all like what you're talking about, this new project that's being proposed. This has happened before. They're just scaling it up and trying to leverage what some other researchers have done through citizen science into a bigger project, and I think that is damn cool. Like this is this is not new research theory. They're just growing it. Okay, So I'll just jump in out first. I'll apologize because this should have been your story because you said much more smarter things about it than I did. You did far more research. You've informed the listener far more than I ever could. And I'd like to go on record right now and say, Phil, if this was the Sway story for a winner, I'd like you to please attribute this story to Miles Um because you just said some really smart ship. That just made me feel real dumb um. I have to live with that. But there there was our first there was our first crossover. I felt like a winner because it was my turn and you have made me the loser. So good good on you. Well I would, I would. I'll take that and I appreciate that. And I just want to throw one more thing in here at the end, because I do think this is very cool, and like I said, I'm a huge proponent of citizen science. If you guys are interested in getting involved, you should go to size starter dot org. That's sci starter dot org and enter fish story into the keyword search. Uh and yeah. I just think it's a great project, and I really hope it's successful because I'd love to see it implemented elsewhere and going to fisheries that I know something about, because I would totally get involved. Now see, I didn't even bother with the link because I was like, this is this dumb shit. I feel awful right now, I've ruined my afternoon. Damn it. What's your next story. Let's get away from this, because that was my second story. It's you're you're closing it out, dude. Oh so we've Oh so it's a weird thing today. Oh man, so maybe that story is now a wash and Phil just has to go on your first story and my last story. I disagree with that, which case, in which case, congratulations because this ain't touching bass and snakes, though I do, I do. I do find it interesting. I think this is worth noting. Uh. Interesting little tidbit here from my neck of the woods, and fitting since we just had Rayliota on talking New York salmon. He's smiling about this because it's it's directly helping his tackle business. Um, and this actually comes directly from New York dot gov. Headline on this one. Governor Cuomo announces program to extend fishing season and improve renowned angling experience in Western New York and here's what it says. Governor Andrew Cuomo announced the start of a new pilot program as part of the Reimagine the Canals initiative that uses water from the Erie Canal to enhance already renowned fishing opportunities in Western New York. This was originally announced as part of the Governor's State of the State address in January twenty. The program will encourage New Yorkers and visitors to experience the state's canal system in a different way, while also expanding tourism and bolstering small business in the region. So to back up a little bit, I'm betting most of you, at least a good chunk of you have heard of the Erie Canal, at least, right there was a song about it. I think there was a song about it. Somebody wrote it. Anyway. Anyway, the Erie Canal runs from Albany to Buffalo. It was completed in eight and for the non history folk back in the day, right that was the super Highway of the country or the East coast at least for getting goods from the Atlantic Ocean to the Great Lakes. You'd go from the Ocean up the Hudson River past New York City to Albany, and then, as they say you have to Albany, bang the left at the canal, You bang the left of the canal, and you go all the way to Buffalo. So extremely extremely historically significant, but honestly, now it's just kind of sitting there doing nothing, right, Like I read, a little bit of cargo still transported on at time to time, but it's mostly just considered a heritage historic thing. You know, take a boat ride, get an ice cream and so on. But for years New York has been trying to figure out how to use the canal to attract more tourists, which I don't think it has been super easy, Like it's not that riveting of a thing. It's just, you know, it's just a straight line of of of kind of stagnant water um. But then meanwhile you've got all these tributaries of Lake Ontario that see runs of steelhead and salmon and browns, which boost the economy because so many anglers come to chase them. So here's what Cuomo says. This fall in New York is an hancing some of our world class fisheries and expanding opportunities for anglers into December by creatively using water from the Erie Canal to bolster fishing conditions and extend the season. And he says, as a fisherman, which I gotta tell you, I don't live in New York, but I've been watching a lot of Cuomo over the land a few months. Yeah, like you can't get away from from Cuomo out here on the television. Don't see him? Yeah you can't you. Yeah, you're Cuomo in Montana. I don't. I'd love to know what kind of fisherman he is. I don't see him fishing. Um but he says, I'm pleased to see our incredible Lake Ontario tributaries will be host to even better experience for our anglers. This innovative use of iconic infrastructure continues our strong tradition of eco tourism while supporting our small businesses and um and it goes on here. The New York State Canal Corporation says, by increasing the levels and flows in streams that will encourage fish to travel further upstream, which expands areas for ideal fishing conditions. In addition, the Canal Corporation will extend the annual draining of the canal in western New York to create a longer season for anglers. So I think this is cool and smart, right, because while there are a few tail waters in the mix out here, most of these trips are raining groundwater reliant, right, So this really could extend the amount of time that they're holding fish. And dare I say, maybe spread people out a bit, maybe just a little bit. It's probably asking a lot, and I don't know, it could be wishful thinking, but it's a smart economic move. And the story actually says that canal has provided a bit of a lifeline in the COVID economy because it's essentially stimulating the outdoor economy for a few extra months. A lot of these rivers, you know, by the end of the fall and in November there's there's just not enough water in them anymore for the fish to run or it's over. So they're they're they're giving businesses tied to fishing, be at motels or restaurants, tackle shops, a few extra months. And I just found it refreshing because you hear so many stories about resources being fought for and and withheld that I just feel like it's nice to hear one where it's like, you guys need this water, that's all have harmony here here you go. Yeah, no, that's a great story. My question on the follow up, I've got a couple, But the first one is having more water. Do you think there's a chance that that will boost recruitment? Like those fish are running up there to spawn, right, and and if those those trips end up getting dewatered post spawn, I would imagine that some of those those reds go dry or the auction levels go down. Is it possible that this would even increase the recruitment of all those age classes and and help the population more broadly, not just extend the season. It certainly could, but then you have to keep up with it, right, And and here's the reality of these streams. They're there's certain ones that were sort of pre programmed to have these runs, the big streams where this was a state program. But you have all these other streams that come into Ontario and just sort of by default, you know, a couple of steelhead go wayward a couple of sad and they established these trips that were not necessarily originally stocked to create a run. So then you have, you know, a lot of these these fisheries that are in flux. It's like one year, I'm making up the Sandy Creek whatever. It's like, dude, it was banging last year and it might not happen again for three years, all based on conditions. So if this works and really does what they think and shows a little boost and gets angler numbers up and stimulates the economy, whatever, if this is something they're willing to do year over year to extend that flow based on the erie canalysis sitting there, hell yeah, it could create much better fishery long term in a lot of these trips that are just sort of hit or miss. That's that that is that is a really good, feel good story. And and particularly taking something that has been used for commerce and other industry that's no longer being needed and transition that over to helping fisheries. I love that. I love that story. It's a simple piece, but it's it's a good one. It's a feel it's a feel good piece. So now all the people fishing for the fake steel head that that's that's a win for them. You know what I'm saying. And this is and you what, Joe from U I think I sent you a link about this recently. There are some really really terrible and awkward gripping green photos to come out of those fisheries every year. A lot of the a lot of the art of those photos is positioning yourself in a way to make it appear as if you are the only one there. So every time I see gripping green's out of the Ontario and Erie trips and it's like, just dude, like majestically by himself, I'm like, how did you have to move around and get the twenty five other people out of the photo? Yeah, we hear at at at bent. We are big fans of the awkward fishing photo as a genre. Yeah. I just took one beating in news and now I'm going to take another one ahead tell them what we're doing after Phil, I just want all of you to enjoy the next few minutes as we lavish praise and derision upon young Joe in our new segment Awkward Moments in Angling. What's the deal, guys, isn't this the Halloween special. I wanted some more spook in your stories, like some sort of serial killer fish who kills teenage fish for spawning at fish summer camp or something. Miles is domination in your shared story. Aside, he's also the only one who brought a semi freaky story with the snake inside the fish, which is why I am crowning Miles Nulte the Bent King of Halloween. Congrats, Miles. I know how important Halloween is to you and how much you love it. This must be a very special moment in your life. Don't eat too much candy now. We have a brand spanking new segment that we're rolling out for you today. Fishing pictures can be hilariously bad, and that makes sense. You know, there's there's always a camera around here. Usually the photos are often sushed because someone's holding a slippery ass fish that has no interest in getting its picture taken, and the person in the photo is often less concerned about how they look than how the fish they're holding looks. All these factors conspire to consistently create truly awkward imagery. We decided we wanted to have some fun with this genre of bad photography. In what we're calling awkward moments in angling Why did you take a picture? And a lack all right? So, and I'm laughing having not said anything because I I'm about to be victim number one. But that's okay, you'll you'll, it won't hurt too much, all right. So here's how it works. We're going to take an awkward fishing photo and describe it for you. We'll also probably make some jokes at the expense of the subject of the photo, maybe the photographer as well, who knows, and we reserve the right to invent a completely fictitious backstory if so inclined. If you want to see the actual photos were describing, you can find them on our Instagram pages. That's at Joe Surmeli and at water Miles. In order to be fair about this, we're going to start with our own photos. Joe and I will each take a stab at burning photos from each other's past, but that's gonna get boring quick, and we'd like to deepen our pool of options. So if you have an awkward fishing photo that you'd like to have mercilessly heckled on a podcast, please send it to Bent at the mediator dot com. If we choose your photo, you will get a sweet thank you gift from us that will make both of your friends jealous. All right, So for this first episode, Joe's mom, who is a very nice and patient woman for the record, sent a couple of photos of Joe from the early nineties. And even though this segment has just started, I'm already going to break the rules because instead of choosing just one photo, I'm gonna describe them both. Come on, see you said we we can't keep using ourselves because it'll get boring. I actually could provide enough photos for like months of this, but like, I'm giving you one shot. So yeah, that's right, and I'm making the most of it with with both photos. So are you ready? Yes? Okay? So in this first photo, we see eight year old Joe and and maybe some of you would first notice the very small blue gill he's hoisting out in front of him. It's still hooked to the line, dangling about eighteen inches under a classic red and white bobber. But not me. No. The first thing that jumps out to me in this picture is apparel. So is it the idyllic Mickey Mouse Club hat that's cocked jauntily on his head. No. Is it the generic T shirt he's wearing that's either printed with boilerplate fishing art or maybe vultron because the lighting makes it difficult distinguished. No, not that either. The clothing choice that really jumps off this photo for me is the blue, nightmarish modern art vomitorium print on Little Joe's Zoomba's pants Little Joe's Zubaz pants. Now, for those of you who don't know zoo Baz because you either missed or blocked out the early nineties, here's the best description for them that I've ever heard, brought to you by the Gothamist. Quote. Zoo Baz are basically a sweatpants chef pants hammer pants hybrid, featuring an elastic waist and an oversized leg that gradually tapers as it nears the ankle. They were very popular amongst the Joey buttafuco set in the early nineties. End quote. They still make pants. For the record, Still, I might you wearing him now? You don't know, I thankfully I can't tell. What's so great about this whole outfit is the cognitive dissonance between the mouse gutear hat and the Joey Buttafuco pants. I feel like we're seeing a picture of little Joe in transition. At the top of his head, he's wearing an almost two on the nose, symbol of American youthful innocence, while down south he's rocking pants better affiliated with sexually predaceous Long Island guidos. And that leads us to the second photo from a year later. This shot, which appears to be taken on the same wooden dock overhanging the same neighborhood lake, shows just how far young Joe has come. Joe really seems to be embracing the New Jersey Italian American stereotype. His sleeveless, baggy T shirt glows a color that can only be described as electric salmon. He's also clearly growing into his identity as a serious angler. That Mickey Mouse hat gone. Now Joe is rocking a white foam trucker hat with the words shark stenciled in black above the drawing of a great white. His new hat comes with a couple of other upgrades. It's got the ubiquitous gold fish hook bill clip glinting in the sunlight, and a silver tarpin pin hovering just above the r in shark. Finally, although Joe is holding an identically sized micro blue deal in each picture, we can see how far he's progressed by his spatial expressions. While in the first photo his face is clearly splitting with pride and elation at the fish he just caught, his countenance in the second photo makes it clear that he now knows this fish's size isn't worthy of photographic enshrinement. He's probably just posing with it to play kate his mom. And Finally, in the background of the second photo, we have perhaps my favorite detail, a city pigeon creeping up the dock from behind, eyeing the fish like an oversized pretzel and scheming on how he's gonna steal that blue gill out of this little kid's hand. Okay, you've done? Is that? It? That end of rant? Because now I have to tee up, because I just have a few things of clasp points of clarification. The Mickey Mouse. The listeners are going to get to defend themselves. Go ahead, no, no, no, no, but this is a special case because it's me. The Mickey Mouse hat was authentic purchased at Disney. Okay, um it looks like. Yeah, and the shark hat with the tarpen pin Tarpin, I remember was the fish I aspired to catch. I was enamored with tarpin, even though I didn't know where they were or where they lived at the time. But the thing you missed, which is an easy one to miss in the the the year later photo they cut off t shirt salmon colored photo. So I'm also wearing a freestyle watch, remember freestyle watches. I did see that, actually, and I decided that I was. I was already going too long winded, and I decided I'd let the let you go. But yeah, was it a swatch? No, no, no, Freestyle was the brand, and I liked it because the Freestyle logo was a little shark finn. Do you remember this, oh, I told, yeah, I absolutely remember that. Yep, Yep, I do. Anyway, I'm gonna play by the rules and I will put both of these photos on my Instagram, and all I will say is that your mom has already sent along photos of you a lot more choices then my mom sent you. So uh, the next time you guys hear this segment, the tables will have turned. But we don't want this to be all about us, even though you might want it to be all about us. So, as Miles suggested, find those awkward fishing photos and send them to us at bent at the meat eator dot com. By the way, you can nominate a friend like if you're thinking like, oh my god, I got this picture. I got this picture Robbie on my phone, I'm sending right now. Send it. We'll rip them apart and um, you know say that's thanks to you, then posted on social media. You know, man, of course Miles has to fully shame me when is barely any time left in the show to defend myself. And then, rather than eat up more time defending myself, I'm just gonna give him the floor again. So you can get a deeper understanding of his dislike of Halloween via our end of the line segment in which we tell you what you should be tying on the ends of your lines this weekend. He's got something appropriately black and orange that stings worse than a small sewing needle shoved inside a butterfinger. Well, it's not loud enough to cap off our Halloween episode. We are taking a hard look at a classic Western fly, and before us say the name. I feel like I need to recognize the uncouth nomenclature. It's called a bitch creek. I'm not entirely sure how it got that name or when. Other than it originating somewhere in Montana eighty ish years ago, no one seems to know much about its origins. In George F. Grant's classic book Montana Trout Flies, he admits that even he couldn't figure out the exact provenance of this particular bug. The general consensus among the people who talk about this kind of obscure nonsense is that the fly maybe named for Idaho's Bitch Creek, which is a tributary of the Teton River. That name is said to be a corruption of the French word beache, which means dough, as in female deer. French fur trappers originally named that water as the Beach, and it seems like some of the ingrades who came after butchered the name into the unfortunate version that we have today. To me, the bitch Creek looks like Halloween on a hook. It's orange, black, furry, and wiggly, kind of like a demonic maggot, and also like Halloween. The Bitch Creek is overdressed, overhyped, and leaves me feeling cheated and a little regretful every time I really get into it. The Bitch Creek is very similar to a fly I covered in a past episode, The Girdle Bug, Except the girdle Bug and it's my turn offshoot. The rubber legs embody a near perfect marriage of simplicity and effectiveness, while the Bitch Creek is a prototype for the worst parts of modern fly design, taking something that's easy to tie and catch fish and making it harder to tie and less effective. Many quote unquote new flies just borrow from perfectly good existing patterns, swap out a couple of materials, and add seven steps. The end result is a fly that takes ten extra minutes to produce, but is equally or perhaps less productive than the original. But hey, it looks cool once again. It feels a lot like Halloween. Instead of the girdl Bugs classic black, the Bitch Creek uses a combination of orange and black chanel. In order to make that work, you need to add in a wire rib to hold the two shaneels in place, or get even more complicated and weave them together just for some extra fun with a finicky material. It's got saddle hackle wrapped around the thorax because the four rubber legs just weren't enough legs. I guess, all right, so this is a little hyperbolic. The bitch creek isn't a particularly complicated fly to tie as far as flies go. We're not talking about a feather game changer. But as you can probably tell, I'm a little salty toward bitch creeks, and in fact I'm not finished. Bitch Creeks supposedly represents sound fly nymps, but if that's the case, they're coloring makes no sense. Adult salmon flies are indeed black and orange, but the nymphs, the sub adults that live underwater, have no orange on them at all. The bitch creek is a subsurface fly, so adding that orange just makes them look less like the prey they're supposed to be imitating. But the ultimate reason I dislike this flies because I don't think I've ever caught a trout on a bitch creek. They're one of those bugs that you supposedly have to have in your box because you know it's a classic, But really there are far simpler and more effective options, And in that sense, they really are like Halloween, the addressed holiday where adults spend hours of time and hundreds of dollars putting together costumes in the hope that other adults will finally, for one night pay attention to them. Before I go, though, one thing, I have discovered a saving grace for bitch creeks. Though they may not be very useful in their intended environment or on their intended quarry, they are dynamite for pan fish and small bass in lakes and ponds. Those little bastards can't get enough of them. So while I don't recommend you going out and tying or buying a box of bitch creeks, if you already have some, don't toss them out, just move them from the western trout box to the warm water box. So that's it for this week. We hope you enjoyed our nod to my least favorite holiday. Learn that you can get a good deal on waiters if you pee in them first, and got motivated to watch the Blair Witch Project during your next Netflix and chill. Yeah, and as always, keep those questions, comments, stories, bars, awkward photos, now sale items and concerns coming to bent at the meat eater dot com. We love hearing from you. As Freddy Krueger would say, you are all our children now a matter of fact, here he is saying it to Bill Dances come down, I mean the sharp say, oh boy, this is almost making me like Halloween. Stay safe out there tomorrow night. Drink black rifle coffee to perk up before heading out with the kids, and remember to soak their candy and bleach for at least twenty four hours to remove all the COVID. Also, it's mischief night, but there's still a toilet paper shortage, so be responsible kids and jes smash the mailbox and stead