00:00:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, my name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called the bear Grease Render where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast presented by f HF Gear, American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. Guys, We've got an exclusive bear Grease discount code for f h F Gear that's fish Hunt Fight Gear. I've been using their products for the last year and I love carrying my gear in a chest rig or my binos and their bino harness. It's easier and more accessible than a backpack and it doesn't get in the way when I'm riding my mule. For a limited time, you can head over to f h F gear dot com forward slash bear Grease and listeners to this yere podcast get a discount on purchases for your f h F Gear system and you can see how I build my gear system. So go to f h F gear dot com forward slash bear Grease for a special code. If you're buying stuff from f h F Gear, check it out fish Hunt Fight f h F Gear just for the record, now that we're not producing a show for Mark Kenyon, I would like to just establish with a group that now Clays in charge, Clays the producer. Okay, so no longer there's no need to look back to Andreas anymore. Thank goodness, you few. This is this is really an experiment, and I don't really want to put like a lot of pressure on you guys, but you know, there was there are groups of people over time that have done things that were monumental, and when you're swinging for the fence, like you're either gonna strike out or you might hit it over the fence. And so this is this is the first time in the Bear Grease Surrender history that we have had an entirely new crew of bear Grease guests. Essentially, you guys are like the astronauts that went to the moon first, and people are like, man, I don't know if they ever come back or not. This is wild. So congratulations won't air. Okay, If this goes really bad, I'll just call in the regulars, you know, for a quick bear grea surrender. No, welcome to the Bear Grease Surrender. Welcome. No, I'm thrilled, apps solutely thrilled to have a new cast of characters which I which I will introduce. So we make a big deal out of out of introductions on the burgers frender. Okay, we are we're in the field, so we're not in the typical burgery studio at my office. We are in the field. Loose definition of in the field, let's say in the field, meaning we're not where we usually are. But I have many many guests with me today, Mark Kenyon of Wired to Hunt. Yeah, Mark, Mark and I have been hunting together this week. With Mark is his crew, of his production crew. So I'm gonna start to my right and we have Matt gang Yon. How close was that matter? You know what? That's a perfect mix of the both of the correct So we say Gagnon or it could be it could be Gagon if you're from the old country Gang, but we'll go with Gagnon. That's like the Okay, so tell me what you do for meat. Either I am officially an associate producer and in the field, I am the go get me this guy, the glue guy. Yeah. Did you guys know that the first video that Matt ever produced for me, he was the were you the director? On that there was multi officially, yeah, it was. It was a team effort. But yeah, I put in a lot of the first time I worked with Matt with the media, we did this bare pistol defense video and it has two point seven million views on YouTube right now, smashing success by Matt. Yeah, so I set the bar high initially. So I feel like I I peaked in my first effort. To your right, Andreas, good job did your persian now? Yeah, so Andrea said, tell us what you do for me here? I produced for me either. So you're a producer producer? What does that mean? I didn't. I wouldn't have known what that meant before. So my wife likes to think that it's like wedding planning, Okay, for a TV show. You get all the pieces to the puzzle together and you have an event. Okay, I'm happy. It's a good way to put it. Shout out to Jane. Yeah, she must, she must be an angel. I think she's she's the real trooper of the crew completely. So you've been on the shoot with us this week, and we'll talk about our hunting what we did. You've you've done this kind of stuff and other for other companies though other capacities. Yes, this is my first event with or gig with docuseries of this sort. Docuseries is that what we're calling these? I imagine it is. It's a it's a series of documenting. Mark Kennyan slaying it to your right, Tyler, Emmett Tyler, welcome man, Hello, thanks for having me. Where are you from? Originally from Carpenteria, California, but I live in Bend, Oregon. Now, oh, that reminds me. Andrea's is from l AT, I'm from I'm from We'll come back to you, Tyler. We're gonna spend a lot of time with you. Um. I would like to point out that Andreas is from l A. People might have already insinuated that just by hearing him, though they might have already caught on. Did y'all notice that James Lawrence gave him some grief from being from CALIFORNI I loved it this so quickly he was able to already he picked up the andres is and should be the target of jebs. I feel like I'm James Lorton. It's his favorite. Now. He gave me a big old hug. He didn't hug you, Clay, not the way he hugged me. Jealous. I've known this man for a week. You've known this man your entire life, and he gave me a better hug than he gave you. Child. You have a very very good skill at connecting with people quickly. I will say that you and Juju were like this, like quickly, James Lawrence, I like to know everyone, man. Maybe that's something about guys from California. Tyler Okay, back to Tyler, Man. You do a lot of work for so you're a videographer and do a lot of work for Meat Eater and all a bunch of different capacities. Love kind of all the shows across the gamut from cal in the field to meet your hunts to now this first time with Mark and sometimes on the main show with Steve and I don't know, they just wherever they tell me to go, I go. What Meat Eater shows have you on with Steve Well? I first worked on Stars in the Sky, which was not the show, but that was back in I don't know when we filmed that, went to the Fish Shack, and then did the Wyoming Mule Deer episode. I think it was in season nine where we went with on horseback up to Wyoming and and then did the Texas episode with Jesse Griffiths and JT. Fans. This year in February we did the Square which was Yeah, during that snow did you know that? So the guy that y'all hunted with and Wyoming the guide and his son what was his name? Stewart and Landon Peterson. Stewart was the dad, Landon was the sun. So Stewart Peterson Mark, did you know that Stewart Peterson that was on that season on Back Country Wyoming hunt is the boy from Where the Red Fern Grows? Somebody just told me that this one, but maybe it was him was Utah, Yeah you told me that. Yeah. So it's a great, great, great movie and book. Do you ever watch him movie like that or read a book like Where the Red Front Grows and just be like, why didn't I think of that? Because it's such a classic American story that is just so simple and so rich, and people who aren't coon hunters, people who aren't even necessarily rural people can like watch Where the Red Fern Grows and identify with it. I thought it was fascinating that this old outfitter was Billy Coleman in the movie. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That movie was shot over here in their Tallquah, Oklahoma, which is like a couple hours from here. Yeah, they were great, great guys. Yeah, they really seemed like yeah, genuine article. I think he did the child actor thing for a while and then realized it wasn't for him and just you know, started living a different life. You can tell when Billy Coleman and Where the Red Fernt Grows runs like down a gravel road and with bare feet, You're like, this dude's a real outdoors kid. But he was from wy Woman. He played a pretty good Southerner. Yes, yeah, he was from Miami, but yeah he does. I think he's a general contractor and a outfit or no, and his son is a cattle rancher. Yeah they seem like the real deal. Yeah, they're definitely the real deal. Really nice guys. Yeah, so you do a lot of videography of all kinds for meat either, that's cool man, to your right, Mark Kenyone, you're making me French. Just we're going around and like danyone Tae e met and mental Meto. Mark Kenyone, Mark, Welcome to Burgaries. Man is a big deal. Glad to be here so everybody. Most people will know who Mark Kenny is. Mark Kenyon has wired to Hunt, which is inside of the meat eater, the meat eater world. It's a it's sometimes I think it's hard for people to understand kind of meat either. They might know wired to Hunt and not realize unless they're paying attention that that that is a meat eater brand. But it's your brand and who you are. I think of meat eaters is the umbrella, and then there's all these sub brands and personalities and folks underneath it and wired hunts of thing. I started on my own men of years ago, and and then uh, when meat eater became a new thing, me and Steve merged it all together. And he were one of the first guys that came into meat Eater, were you not? You have one of the very very first, like number three or something like that. Okay, so he sought you out, he did. He called me one day, do you know Steve before that I did. We weren't like close buddies or anything. We drank a beer once and talked about books, and we've exchanged a few emails. And then one day I was sitting in Grand Teatime National Park with my wife, camped out living in our camper, and I got a phone call from Steve Ronellen, Like what in the world he called me about the rest of history. So that was what year two thousand seventeen seems like a long time ago. It did. So we're gonna come back to Mark because we were gonna talk about our hunt. Ultimately, by the end of this, we're gonna talk about the Warner Glenn podcast number two. To Mark's right my left Joe, also known as Big Joe. Big Joe is not He's not big like volume wise, they're like mass wise, but is very tall. Joe vanneck Out. Yeah, this is your so your videographer cinematographer? Can you can you describe the difference for me? For real? I mean, I mean to most people in the world that there's no difference, But within production, I would say cinematographers have like a little bit, you know, a little bit. Uh is this a self proclaimed title? I mean you get credit credited as a cinematographer. Well, what would the guy do that was a videographer? I mean, I don't know. I don't want to throw it. Come this was like an ego thing. Here is what I'm catching. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, it's it's more artistic. Maybe a certain level of bigger paycheck, certain level of production maybe reflects the cinematographer. I don't know, Okay, certain cameras maybe I don't know. Okay, we have an l a producer here that could chine in on what what what's what's the difference. So since digital cameras become a thing and brands have brought in folks to shoot, this role has become a videographer where their shooting video of content and they're also editing or directing. There like a jack of all trades or Jane of all trades, where cinematographers just specializes in making cinema images, so they operate on a different scale. Typically, to the general public, the term videographer is more familiar than a cinetographer or director of photography or camera operator. It's a cinematographer on our time card. So there you go. How does filmmaker fit into this? Just skipping, just jumping above all of it. And you know I'm a filmmaker. Well this this, this is like not my film, Like I'm producing images and making things look good. But if I was, like, for instance, I'm making my own film, like as an independent cinematographer, like my own documentary film. So that's I guess qualifies me as a filmmaker. But for this show, just a cinematographer, do you guys as as videographers as excuse me, as cinematographers and as uh. It's kind of like the difference than being a someone saying, oh, you're a raccoon hunter and you go, no, I'm a coon hunter. I don't know, and it'd be like, what's what's the difference a joke? Okay, okay, as cinematographers as producers, like four of you are and that do you do? You watch a lot of films, Yeah, for sure, like for style examples and inspiration and lighting and colors. So when you're watching a movie, you're thinking about all those things. Oh yeah, I mean people some people can't stand watching films with me. There's things just because I'm like interpreting it a little bit different maybe, or something You're paying attention to certain things. But sometimes they appreciate it. They're like, oh, I didn't think about that way. My wife has become better at doing that than I am. So she'll be just predict shows right off the bat. It's fun. She's we've switched switch sides. What do you think about do you think there is more advantage in uh, which watching other people's work. I think there's an argument argument to be made for somebody that maybe never watched anybody else's work and just went off like raw just their interpretation as opposed to be an influence, because I think we're heavily influenced in anything. Like if you turned me loose in the mountains of Arkansas to go kill a deer with a bow, and I had never had any instruction, but I understood the patterns of deer, and like, I think I would probably do it way different than the way I do it now. It's just been ingrained and me. I mean, part of the whole stick of what we're doing this week is that we're hunting a particular way because it's the way that it's a traditional way to hunt. It's not necessarily the most efficient way. Do you see what I'm saying? So, and I realized we gained so much by watching how other people do things, But sometimes I wonder if that inhibits us more than it helps us sometimes, what are your thoughts on films? And then Mark will go back to deer hunting. You know, I think, like you know, get he was saying, getting inspiration from other stuff. I think, you know, mimicry is the best form of flattery kind of thing, or if you're you're kind of learning from people that you admire and applying that to your yourself and your own cinematic process and as Jesus sounds, but yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's it's hard and a vacuum that doesn't exist, right, You're always going to be influenced by everything you watch and assume. So, but you know, there's off a lot of stuff, different rules of shooting that you need to know because you know, you can't cross the line and shoot. You know, it's hard for the editor, so you kind of have to have a basic understanding of of coverage of a scene too. So I think if you just kind of came out of the box about any of that, it could be a little bit challenging for an editor or whatever. So especially because the language of film has evolved over a century, and so we are accustomed to a certain language and once you become a master of that craft. You can change the rules that language. But you know something that your parents brought up last night when we were talking. It was the same idea of how much do you watch or how much you pay attention. Our art, or art in general, is all about sensory understanding. So if you had no hearing, no site, you know, no touch, could you could you make anything? You know? Like, what would you do? You wouldn't know that that existed. So even if we just look at a tree, we can be inspired by that and somehow capture that in our paintings. Are are are there's inspiration no matter what. You don't have a choice, you just you are only able to build on experiences you've had in a sensory world. Yeah, I realized it's probably kind of a romantic, unrealistic idea to think you would be not influenced by other people. But what if we took a paleolithic Native American who would have the full capacity for learning as us, and you could take him out of that world and put him into our world, train him on a video camera the most creative of all the bunch. You could do some tests and figure out which one was most creative. He would know the video, he would know the equipment, and he could make a video. What would it look like? How would it be different than ours? We're getting deep in the weeds boys, This is great. I could have thought on that, just in terms of we've chosen to work within a really set like set confines. We have a episode length like where we have a time limit. So you know, if you take someone in that situation, they may think that the full sunrise is the most incredible thing in film it and it's a you know, a three hour segment that doesn't translate to you know, what we're trying to do. You're we're We've chosen to work within this really like strict set of rules, so there's I think that limits capacity a little bit. You know, you gotta get everything done in twenty two minutes. It has to be a cohesive story. There has to be a start in an end, in an arc, and whatever it was they produced, I just don't think it would do well on YouTube. I I actually think that the Caveman would have a really good chance because we all, we've all evolved with similar understanding of beauty, even across different cultures. Right like the indigenous Americans versus the European Americans, like they understood art in a very similar format we've I think they'd have a good chance of making something really sick. I think I think it would be surprised at how similar are intrigue would be. I think they would make a like an hour long documentary about fire, That's what I think they would do, and Buffalo Fire, Buffalo and the sun rest that I want fantastic. Throw some Kevin Costner in there and a felt cowboy hat perfectly. Are you saying what we do is so easy a Cayman could do it, like I? So, Hey, so Mark, why don't you tell everybody kind of what we've been doing this week? Yeah? Well, the gist of this show that we're producing is that I travel across the country to meet up with interesting characters, interesting deer hunters that represent a unique style, tradition, or culture within the white tail hunting world. And I'm tasked with meeting with this person and mentoring under them, studying them for a day or so to get the gist of their area, their place, and how they do what they do. And then I need to go out and try to pull it off. Myself. So I gotta try to replicate I gotta try to guinea pig their style in their terrain and there stomping grounds. So this time we came to visit you and James Lawrence to learn about Arkansas deer hunting, hunting in the mountains, hunting in big timber, big forests, public land, and doing it the traditional way, packing in with a mule, staying out there a while, camping in the back country. And uh so that's what we did. We came out here, I met with you guys and tried to hunt. Yeah, everybody that it has followed along with the Burgar's podcast would have would know James Lawrence. He was on the second or third episode, so we did a a full episode with him the shed Hornbuck. Yeah yeah, what what what were your impressions of James. James was even better than I expected, you know, I think that, you know, having listened to him on the on the podcast and heard of stories from you about him, I knew he would be a great deer hunter. I knew he'd be a character. But what I didn't expect fully was just how warm and welcoming he was. You know, how quick he was to open his arms to you and be excited for you and share with with us everything he could. And the genuine excitement he had to be a part of this with us was just it was really nice. And uh, I'll tell you, obviously a heck of a deer hunter to kill the deer he has in the places he's done it. I mean, I could tell I was impressive when I went and saw the antlers on his wall at the beginning of the trip, but it's even more impressive now at the end of the trip. We so the first day we went to James house, we spent hour two with him talking with him, and then we went out into the Mountains National Forest here in Arkansas, and there was a whole gaggle of us. There's six of us here, so we all we packed in on the mule. And so the way that the way that James, you know, he did all kind of hunting, but his favorite way to hunt was the packing with a mule or a horse. He's a horse packing with a horse and carry enough stuff that he could hunt for an extended period of time and stay way back in the woods. And it basically it's kind of like a modern version of a long hunt, you know, and so that's what we did. And you know, there's different layers of national forests. You know, there's, uh, there's some national forest that is abudding private land that has a lot of clear cuts and a lot of you know, man made alterations to the landscape, which typically means more deer. Then there's what I would call like interior mountain hunting, which would be these mountain ranges in areas that just kind of have it's all gonna have some timber, timber improvement in different things, but kind of this interior areas that probably have less deer to steason anywhere else. And that's where we tried to go. We camped, you guys camped. I actually left because I wasn't really apart. I was just a part of the film getting Mark back in here, and then Mark was on his own, so I didn't camp with you guys. But how many days did you hunt, Mark? Well, we had budgeted four hunt days, the first of which would be a morning with you where you'd be showing me around and giving me your perspective on how you would approach you know, just basically how you and James and hunt in air like this. I was picking your brain. Bought all that, and then we would have I would have three and a half days solo after that. So that's how much time we had. We didn't end up using all that time, but that's how much time we had available. And we got a late starts. We're supposed to camp in and get in there the night before, but because of all sorts of outside of our hands circumstances, we got a late starts. We got in a day late, and we left a little early. So short it was a short, long hunt. Yeah. Yeah, Well do you want to do we want to tell that clearly, I mean talking to me, just kind of describe the terrain and kind of what we did and then just your hunt. Well, if you're willing to spill the beans, oh why not? Yeah? The Bear Grease Render podcast is a good places any all right. So we, like you mentioned, we packed in our stuff on Izzie on your mule, and that was definitely the easiest hike in I've ever had for a bad country hunt. Because she carried my backpack too. I felt guilty, um, but it was nice, and I never feel guilty loading a mule down to the hilt. I think of every what I whisper under my breath or when i'm if I'm by myself, I actually say it out loud to the mule. I say, I feed you every day of your life. You can do this for me today and not throw a bit. Well, you know, it was funny though. We we talked about this while we were filming the other day, but watching her walk on, I got to thinking, like, is she like a hunt dog? Like is this her super Bowl? Has she been sitting in her you know, sitting in the pasture, sitting in the barn for weeks, just waiting for this chance to get out and do or work. He said, Nope, she's she's not excited about this at all. Yeah, Now that that was an insightful question that I've never heard it asked like that. People have asked, you know, do you think they like doing this? And my and it will go through it again because it's an interesting thought. You know, does this is this animal pumped when I put it in the trailer because it knows it's gonna go out in the back country and get out of the you know, the pasture for a couple of days. And I believe the answer is no. And that is partly because I read a book years ago called Evidence Based Horsemanship where a neurologist and a horse trainer got together and wrote a book that changed the equine training world because for years, people anthropomorphized horses and mules, because a horse might treat Tyler different than they treat Joe, just like he would, and people would would presume that, well, that horse doesn't like me, or that horse, you know, doesn't it's mean to me and not to him, And basically it affected the way people trained and handled their horses. Well, these neurologyist came in and really studied the science, the brain science of an equine animal, and basically they have they don't have a place in their brain to like you or not like you, like it is not there. They have an extremely big part of the brain that governs the physical movement of their body. Like basically, if the brain were an engine, like a big chunk of that engine would be dedicated to actually driving their body, you know, this thousand pound body. Even more so than like the human body, a very small part of that brain would be dedicated to the ability to reason and think, which they basically don't have the ability to do. Like you can put out. The best example was like you put out a hay bell for a horse. He is not thinking I'm gonna stash some of that hey away for next week when I won't have hey, like he just he thought hey. Point being that animal, the main things that animal is worried about is the main flight response. The main response that animal has this flight response to predation that is a massive factor in their life is staying safe and breeding and then having a full belly. And so like a kind of like Matt, Matt pointing to himself, I didn't breeding. So a dog though, a primary instinct in that dog is a prey drive to go get something, And so we're on the same page of that animal. We want to go get a coil, we want to go get a bear or whatever. So anyway I think that is he is happy. The other thing is that they fit into a a a dominance. Everything about training mules and horses is about dominance. And by dominance, I don't mean like physically dominating the animal. But that animal when it views you andreas All, the only way it knows how to register you is am I in charger? Is he in charge? Who's in charge? Here? And so if you established that you're in charge, then that animal will do what you want. If it figures out that you're intimidated buy it, or that it can bully you, it absolutely will. We used to read our kids a book called if you give a Moose a muffin? Do you can read that? So, if you give a moose a muffin, he'll come in your house and want to drink of water. If you give him a glass of water, then he'll come in your house and he'll want to sit on the couch. It's a cute little kid's book. So if you give a mule a muffin, you're in trouble. So you always got to keep him in line. So you know there's a future for you and children's books. You do the Arkansas version of that, give a mule u? Do you regret giving Issy and Apple? Now? No, not at all for me. Yeah, so yeah, mules. Yeah. I don't give the cliff Notes version of this because I know we want to get to other things. Um, basically, just we packed in there a few miles, we set up a base camp, and then you and I struck out for a morning of kind of still hunting through the mountains, And basically I was just picking your brain and all the things. I want to know, what's the kind of stuff you think you're they're feeding on out here, what kind of habitat are they key and in on? What are the terrain features of these deer are using. You were pointing out a lot of differences to me. I'd say one of the things that stood out the most to me was how you should interpret sign in a place like this compared to how you might interpret a sign or observations in a place in the Midwest where there's much higher deer densities, because very low deer density here. And so you talked about making a chart, which I think we should make, and I think we should sell it on the mediator store. This would be one rub in Arkansas equals fifteen rubs in Iowa. One dear sighting in Arkansas equals twenty deer in Iowa. Whatever it was um because there's so little sign of of any life out there. When it came to white tails, at least we saw it. We fought, excuse me, we saw zero droppings. Just the the several small tracks we saw when you and I were together, we found one little dinky rub and we saw one just half I can't cuss in this podcast, kind of one one real small little scrape. Uh So it wasn't terribly encouraging from a sign perspective, but you were telling me, oh, this is pretty great. So so that was eye opening to me. Um. So I got the lay of the landing and just kind of saw how you would do it and how James taught you to do it, and and try to get enough of an understanding to be head out there in my own that was that was the beginning. Yeah, yeah, and then walk us through the hunts. You had four hunts, ye, so you you Clay took off, You took off, went home, and we were hunting high saddles. Yeah, this is one big mountain that had a few saddles in it. And and both you and James had reiterated to me multiple times saddles were really the name of the game. It was a terrain feature and these big ridges that deer would use to cross the big ridge. And while there's a number of different ways deer use these mountains, a number of different terrain features, they might relate to saddles where we're the most huntable. I think that was a key thing, Like you could try different things, but this was a way that was particularly hunting, and it had has a lot to do with the wind higher up on the mountains. If you gotta if you got a south wind, you actually get a south wind. If you're on the side of the mountain with a south wind, it's gonna swirl, it's gonna hit this mountain and do all kind of weird stuff. So the saddles are huntable. And what I said to you, and what I wanted to reiterate, because there's a lot of guys that kill good deer in this part of the world that probably would be like, well, I don't hunt that many high saddles. There's other ways to do it, you know, in the deer's world in in this part of the country, Like he's probably doing eight things really consistently. This is one of them, you know. I mean, he's going to bed probably in similar areas on the mountain, he's traveling benches in similar as, he's feeding in similar areas, he's getting water every day somewhere. But basically it's just like you can kill him in saddles because in the saddle is a low spot on a long ridge, and so that's just kind of what we keyed in on. Yes, we're looking for saddles, some little bit assigned, just confirmative deer coming through though. And then we wanted to find those things close to acorns because we figured that's that's what they're kid in on feeding. So that first night, what did you say, what kind of Oh yeah, acorns, acorns, Oh, acorns. That's so we found We found all those things in a couple of spots. And so that first night I went into the first saddle. It was nice, thick, brushy saddle. Brought my uh incredible cameraman Tyler and Joe with me. We climbed up in trees and we decided we'd sit up high that first night because it kind of seemed to like a destination that you need to get a good advantage point of. So we did the tree thing that night. We saw one dough out of range. We went back the next morning, which I was thrilled about. Yeah, when I you came back to camp, I was like, oh, you saw a deer yep, good yep. So that was somewhat encouraging. Next day saw nothing. So that afternoon I decided you know what, it's time to take another page James book and do the still hunting thing. So that evening I still hunted my way through an acre. Weren't flat through that first saddle, up another knob to this other ridge, and I came across another spot with with a bunch of acorns that weren't there the first day when you and I walked through, because they weren't as thick in this spot. So I saw that, It's like, oh interesting. And then I glanced over to my left and I saw this brushy point coming off the main ridge, and it caught my eye. Hadn't noticed it when you and I were out there, and I caught I just caught a glimpse into that cheese. That looks like something should be bedding in that. So I just stood in glass for a while, and I edged my way off the little trail and I just started sidehilling toward that, just to get a better look. And as I'm heading towards that, I find a rub multiple saplings all rubbed up. So I thought, well, this looks good, and I sat and I watched that brushy point for a while and then slipped on past that around the knob and on the other side, and I have another ripped up tree. So now I found two rubs in the same little knob. And then I looked at on X and I noted that little tiny scrape we found the day before it was just on the other side of this too. So all this sign, which now is the most sign we've seen anywhere on this trip, is right around a snob, and there's a second saddle that drops off that nub. And so I thought to myself, as I'm seeing all this and these things are looking good, better and better, I thought, why don't just sitting the side of this knob and watch that saddle and see if this kind of combination of factors pans out. Did that? Saw three doors that night come across that saddle out of range. So the next morning my plan was head back in there first light, slip into that saddle, and get closer to where they crossed. And to make a long story short, we ended up seeing several deer moved through that saddle, and one of them around late in the morning. Late in the morning, one of them came crunch crunching just over my right shoulder. I'm sitting on the ground and I heard a twig snap. Turn my head to the right, look past my cameraman here, Mr Tyler, and I just see antlers coming down the ridge, not far not far away at all. And um eight point buck was walking straight past this quarter in a way and lo and behold, we got the camera on him. I got the gun history. Let let let a shot buzzle loader huntinguzuzz could have killed him with a bow. It was was bow range probably when I shot him. And um, yeah, killed me an eight point Arkansas buck. Awesome, man, it was wild. It was not. I didn't expect that to happen the way the way things are going. You haven't a You don't. You don't realize how much pressure is on something like this. And not not from the even the video perspective. But if you had come to Arkansas and he said, Claire, I got three and a half days, I don't want to kill a buck. I mean that's a pretty short amount of time really anywhere to go hunt. I mean you could hunt and some of the best places in the country and say you got three and a half days to kill a representative de your here, so and to do it here, I'd say it was we were all really happy that I think this is your one of the two top hardest hunts. I happy this season. Yeah, so there's a series of hunts that Mark's doing. I don't envy you for this, Mark, It's a tricky endeavor. It's funny, you know, me and Ben, we're the ones who came up with this idea and planned out the hunts and planned out what we're gonna do. And you know a year ago when we were first spitballing this whole idea, like, man, this is a great concept. This is gonna be fun, this is gonna be really interesting, and it never really somehow, I'm some kind of idiot for not really thinking this through, but it didn't really cross my mind until I was actually going out in these hunts, just how crazy it was to try to pull this kind of thing off and make a TV show. Like most all hunting TV shows, especially White Tail. Are you know, going to some big, managed, fancy property and you've got seven days and it's already preset for you. We're going to some outfitter and it's all ready to rock and roll those big bucks all over the place. Nobody goes to some random place spends a day talking to someone learn about the area and then tries to go figure it out all on their own with just three days to hunt. It's not a recipe for success. It is a very interesting concept, and I can't wait to see to see them all and see it all put together. It's it's it's gonna be interesting, and we were very fortunate that this one worked out it very well. Couldn't have the increased pressure of time such a mental mental game. Tell Mark, if he was here for seven full days, like I would have thought, Man, well, well he'll get on a good buck and seven full days. But three and a half days is way different than seven. And with the muzzle litter, which you don't hunt muzzle litter because like as consistently as somebody out here withou like, you're a bow hunter primarily, and those muzzle litters are difficult. There's always something going wrong. There's yeah, there really is. The more I messed with muzzloters, the more I realized there's so many things that can go wrong with them. I'd rather shoot any day of the the week. I would trust a bowl a lot more in the muzzlow. Yeah, Mark, you're you're an uppa guy. Pretty much all the time. How are you feeling at like nine am that morning, so you fired the shot at where was your head at it like nine? Yeah, that's a great question. And and in my very speedy recollection of the hunt right there, I made it sound like it was action packed and quick, and yeah, that sounded pretty action packed. I saw deer and then nothing, and then a couple of deer and then nothing. But you gotta understand that those deer settings, you know, the one deer that was like a four second deer encounter the first night, and the next night it was five seconds of them very quickly passing through and then then I killed. But that was over the course of you know, four days, many long hours, um, so of the hunt was filled with Man, we are not seeing anything. I've got very little signed to work with, you know, I am really a What I love about deer hunting in a lot of ways is the analytical Uh. It's the chess match. It's trying to understand all the different pieces. It's studying the playing, studying the bull ward and figure out how to move these pieces around and where these pieces are and what they mean and and all that. And I kept as we're going through this hunt, I felt like I was hunting blind. There's so little new data to work with. There's almost no sign at all. So it's not like I could scout until I find hot sign because one little rub might be the best we're gonna find. And how do you interpret that. I wasn't going to be able to scout around until I bumped a bunch of deer. I wasn't gonna see four or five, six, seven deer doing different things and be a pattern what they're doing like you might in other places. So much of this time I was sitting here just going back and forth in my head about you know, what to do and how to do and how we're gonna make the most of this and how it somehow going to come together and what it came down to in the end, And basically where my head was at at nine am on that fourth day was I'm not really in control here. I can do a few things right. There's a few things that I can trust, and I'm gonna trust the terrain, trust the saddle. I'm going to, you know, trust my basic instincts as a hunter to to be in the right place with the right vantage point and make sure we're doing the right thing in the moment so that if some opportunity did come along, would be ready for it. But what I was telling myself, literally the words in my mind, We're just wait and see what the mountain gives you. I'm just gonna see what the mountain gives you. And it might be a dough, it might be nothing at all, and we're just gonna have an experience out here and just gonna enjoy this trip for what it was. But we're not gonna kill anything. I just had done an interview to camera talking about this very thing, talking about how my dad was always really good at this, and that when I was a kid sitting with my dad, I just always remember him and I would find him like annoyingly upbeat about it, because he would be, man, this is the most beautiful sky, Godly, look at these leaves. This is just terrific weather. And it would be sitting out there, we hadn't seen a deer for six hours or something, and I'm thinking we should be seeing more, Dear, why isn't this going better? And Dad would just be john about you know what a great maple candy this was or whatever. He was just always enjoying it, joined the experience and the surroundings. And I've always been very goal oriented, very uh achievement oriented, and so I naturally have I have to work hard to take a step back and just soaking things for what they are without like striving for the next thing. And so I was speaking to camera just about how I need to be a little more like my dad in this moment, because this seems like the kind of place that requires that, and and really this is the kind of place that helps, uh teach you to to live like that a little bit. And I was kind of accepting of that and thinking to myself, Man, we were down to just one more day or less half day or whatever it was, and in my hard hearts, I knew it was gonna be a real long shot to get something killed. And just moments after that, minutes after that, here comes that buck. So you know, I don't know what you want to call it, but I kind of looked that buck is a gift. You know, in this out of hunting, you can't be validated by seeing game. I say that all the time, even with bear hunting in national forest, deer hunting in national forest, and part of hunting is. It's so fun to hunt in game rich areas, so like there's not it's so fun to sit and watch a lot of deer. But you have to go way backwards to be successful in the in the mountains, you're just not gonna see a lot of deer, you know. But I think that's a good thing. I like to be able to go from both worlds because there's places I hunt in Arkansas where we do see. If I don't see a deer when I'm hunting, I'm in the wrong spot. Just because you ought to be seeing deer every day, you know, every every sit, you know, every couple of hours, you know, in the mountains not so you know, you're just looking for that one chance of a a deer. So anyway, good job, man. I can't thank you enough. And then we hauled the deer out on Izzie's back. We pulled the old ribs slip behind the shoulder, put the deer over the saddle horn is he hauled the deer out. He said to me, this is how they hauled dead people out of here too, stripe him over the saddle. Yeah, um, what did you say? You skinned it with James Lawrence? Yeah? And then we went, we took it back to James's house. Oh yeah, we we got We gotta say something, man, James Lawrence, of all the people hunt with, he is the best at very genuinely convincing you that he is more excited than you are about the thing that you've done. And he's no, he's no. I wanted to say respector of persons, but like he doesn't really even know Mark, and he genuinely was pumped from he was giving you a hug. He shook your hand and gave you a big hug. I think I'm more excited the new lar, bigger smile. Yeah, he's a perfect mentor in that sense. He'll always be excited for you when you need it. Yeah, man, that's a that's something that I aspire to be like because you can't fabricate it. You can't. It's not just like I said in this Warner Glen podcast. Here boy, he's a pro. Well, he's a pro gentleman that you you can string words together in English and say sentences that maybe the right words, but if those words aren't connected to something really authentic, we all know it. I want to work on being that supportive and genuine inside of my interest in what other people are doing. And and boy, you can't fabricate it's got to really be. Like James, I believe was really pumped that Mark came killed a deer here. And you know, because he could have said, oh wow, Mark, I'm proud of you. That's great, good job. He ended his hunt early, knowing we were driving up to his drive away. He got out of his stand came to see us. He was like Jones in because he knew Mark killed something. Yeah, you know how I know that you are genuinely interested and excited about what somebody has to say. What you do this and anybody that listens to your podcast will know this. You go mm hmmm, that's you gotta you gotta real salad sound that you use a lot Mark, if you listen to me. I think I need to tone this back a little bit. It's good, it's your thing that's prerecorded. It just hits the button. I try to teach my kids to be it's important in communication to be to give feedback to people firm. I'm not talking to that rock on the wall. You know there's I want to I want to I want some I want some feedback. So I like to go. Yeah, Warner Glenn. This is the second podcast in our series, and I love highlighting people like Warner Glenn, Mark asked me yesterday. He is like, so give me a general sense of like why Warrener Glenn would be a well known guy. And it's not like he's done like one thing that made him who he is. It's more just the totality of who he is and what he represents. Part of it is his age to me that he's so special, like in today's time, like the older that somebody gets, the further back that there that their perspectives go, and is the modern world continues to progress it like this incredibly rapid pace. I feel like some of these some of these people that really have a time stamp on their life in the earth for the kind of view that they have of this planet. It we we every day we lose these people. And so I do feel a burden almost too to talk to some of these guys just to see. I mean, like, how do you view the world? You know, what what is it like inside of your life? And an interview Mr Warner was like that for me, and uh, He's he represents so much. But Andrea's you've listened to both the podcast. What did you think of? So you just said something interesting. He's lived a very authentic life close to the land, and historically success has been around how well you can live with in your resources. As time moves forward and we modernize, that success has shifted away from like being close to the land, to all the other things we've fabricated to have a successful excuse me, a successful society. And so I think that's why he's so special, because his success is around his survival and his authenticity, where monitoring success doesn't fall within that. So I think that's why I feel strongly about these stories as well, because it's so contrast to what has evolved in the pain existing in the consumption. And someone like Warner Glenn has self created. Obviously, he fell into that ranch because of his ancestors, but he has perpetuated his existence, and that's what's important. I think that's something interesting that everybody here has also done. Now we're all sitting here because we have perpetuatedly pursued our existence to be shooting a film or to be creating a brand around bear hunting or white tailed deer, and so it's a little bit more modern what we do. Guys like Warner Glenn have our inspirational in that sense. That's my take. Yeah, I like what really what really stood out is that he he does something unique that I think is kind of lost in modern culture, and that's being like tied to his property, his animals, so that you know, he wakes up and sort of repeats the same thing, being waken up at four am and saddling the mules and running the dogs. Like he's really tied to his place and he's been doing that. You know, it seems repetitious. He does that every day. You've got to run the dogs, you've got to feed your animals, you've got to tend your land, and uh, but it's obviously given him like a deep sense of peace and longevity. He's been doing it for eight eight decades, right, and you know, I think folks now every it's that rush to you know, work hard, work hard, retire and then it's leisure time. But he's you know, it's obvious it seems like it's extended his life and his well being by just simply repeating that every day and having that connection to his property and his animals. And you know, he's tied to his land. And that's where when he said he was talking about the reward of doing the kind of work that he does, and he said, if you're interested in monetary type rewards, that was the phrase that he used. Remember that, then you probably don't want to be a dry ground line hunter in a rancher. I like that because in today's world, it's almost as if there's only one option for what most people are thinking about, which would be monetary type rewards. And I'm not saying everybody thinks like that, but I would say the vast majority of people of their lives are dominated by this idea that money is going is the end goal, and that money is gonna be what gives them the freedom that they want. And that is the American way. That is the that is the Western philosophy. That is deep, deep, deep. Even if you think you don't do it, you probably that's somewhere. And I like it that Warner was just like, if that's the way, you know, He's like, they're there are two ways to look at life. You could you could look at the monetary type reward system, or you could and and I asked him, I said, what what is the reward for your style lifestyle, because he he said, he's not doing it for the money, so like, what what's your reward? And that's when he went into talking about the beauty of the land, and he talked about the creator, and he talked about seeing the complexity of nature. He talked about things connected to the tides and the moons and went a little fawn, it's born, you know, he kind of he kind of got poetic there for a minute. Well, don't you feel that the monetary pursuit is a very post industrial revolution, post war cultural effect, Like it's because we've become so productive that we have that luxury of creating another form of survival game. But he doesn't have that luxury, or he didn't choose to take on that lifestyle. So in a sense, he has found small rewards every day and throughout time, and he's built his own reward system that you kind of need that when you're surviving off the land in Arizona. What did you guys think about Kelly Kelly Glenn camberro with her being in movies and being the ruder girl. That was pretty cool when yeah, just a wild set of circumstances though that families found themselves in. You know, you wouldn't necessarily expect that this ranching family from down on the border would get tangled up in that kind of stuff. But there more Hollywood and Andreas and some ways, wow, more Hollywood than Andreas. Thank God. I think she just she said, yes, the unique opportunities that maybe other folks wouldn't have the tenacity to do so, like at the time, like her getting involved with Ruger when it was a really like you know, male dominating industry and just taking that chance and being like, yeah, yeah, I'll go for it, and and being really successful at it. I think that's admirable. Absolutely. I agree with who Matt said, the opportunity, the season, the opportunity. I imagine that they had become very good at that. She stayed though, even through the Hollywood thing. It was cool that she still was just come back and drag around lion hunting, and you know, she didn't move to Hollywood and flapping us, you know, right off into the sunset. She kind of kept her roots through it all. I thought it was kind of cool. You can't take time off. There's always work to do, especially in that environment. They teach you that in l a, No, they teach you that. I mean, I have a bunch of pens and ranchers, So I admire the work effort and the I mean I like working. I think it's admirable to how to pursuit and become good at it and be very consistent. Consistency is everything in life. If you're consistent, you'll find your own success. Success is such a perverse word now, I mean we we should be able to find success in everything, even small, even big, And we shouldn't compare our success to others because then you'll never understand true happiness. I fall the victim to that too, right, I think we all do in the sense of the modern environment. But however, I think they know to be successful every day they need to get up all right. This well needs to be fixed, that fence needs to be fixed. I need to get my mules out here, or whatever they need to do. It's not a lifestyle I would want to live, but I admire it greatly. You know what Warner said that stuck with me more than anything. It was right at the end of the episode, and it hit me like a pile of rocks. It spoke to me, probably because of the headspace I've been in lately. But you said something along the lines, you know, what's what's the secret to the good life or something like that. And he sat there, I think he chuckled, and he said, you know what, it's just to not worry about so many things. There's just not a lot of things worth worrying too much about in life, you know. He went on a little bit from there about the simple things are often what matter the most, and getting all wound up about all the others it's just a quick way to get stressed out and and worried and lose sight of the good stuff. And I'm, you know, so guilty of that so often, over worrying, overthinking, etcetera, etcetera. And it was just it was just like the thing that I needed to hear after you have six days of stressing about this thing, stressing about that thing, and uh, and yeah, I mean so much of our lives, whether we worry about financial success, worrying about career success, worrying about how many points are kids gonna score in the basketball game, or worry about am I gonna do this in a way that these people will thinks right, or that these people will will like or whatever, and so much of it's so trivial, and people don't care about most of the other things. We build these these false idols in our mind of of what matters or what other people will think about us, and and all we're doing is is perpetuating our own misery. And Uh, if we could all live like Warner a little bit more, not worry about as much, focus on a few important things, do them well, do them right, be there with your family, and enjoy it all for what it is. Man. That's that's how you get to eighty five and be riding hundred and seventy five thousand miles in a lifetime and killing lions and just finding what you love and doing it and doing it well, and let the chips fall where they may on everything else. You know that statement that Warner made. I'm glad you brought that up, because I've thought about that a lot since I was there with him, because somebody else could have said that and it would have just been like a cliche answer. But I knew when he said it he meant and he even said that, he said, it's really hard to do. He said, it's hard not to worry about stuff. Yeah, and I've analyze that because it's it's it is very hard. I think everybody worries. I mean like I have a really good life. I feel like I have a really stable life. I worry about stuff. I mean that would be like something and somebody could be like, what are you worrying about? You know, you got a good family, you got a good job, you got this We human nature. Human nature is to worry about stuff. And I think it's point, and I think it would be backed by modern science, is that anxiety and worry is probably one of the biggest health risks that we have long term. It's just this weight on us that is about us all the time. It definitely does not help you live long time. The anxiety will take years off your life. What I what I've thought about how to deal with that stuff is like, think about all the stuff you worry about and then think about the resolution of that thing, whether he would it would even be like a year later, do you a year from now, will you remember the worry about the Deer Culture film? You know what I mean? Like, so it's like, can you skip the middleman and just say, you know what, I'm just gonna try the best I can. I'm gonna hunt as hard as I can for the three days every place I've got and like skip the middleman of worry. Yeah, you know there's two. There's yet it's hard. There's two things that I've I've found picked up from folks that I've found helpful kind of exercises of sorts that can kind of help snap you out of that thinking. So one thing's known as fear setting. You ever heard of fear setting? So you look at a situation. Let's say I'm stressed out because I don't think I'm gonna kill a buck on this hunt, and this episode is gonna suck and my show is not gonna do all of that. So fear setting would be where you think, Okay, there's this thing you're worried about. What's the worst case scenario, Like you've played all the potential scenarios of what could happen here, Like, what's the worst thing that could happen? All? Right, So let's say I don't kill a buck and I'm allows the TV show host and the show doesn't do good and nobody likes it. What's the worst thing that happens? Well, maybe the show tanks and I don't do shows anymore, and I have to go do some other stuff. I do podcasts, or I write books or I whatever is that that bad is at the end of the world. Still got amazing family, still got a job, still get to do fun things. Like you just look and oftentimes the things you worry about are so silly and trivial, and the absolute worst case scenario isn't even that bad. So all of a sudden you say, Okay, can I live with that outcome? Yeah, I'd be fine. It's not that big of a deal. The other thing is the perspective shifting, where I just think about something that actually matters. So anytime I'm stressed out or worried about something, or if I make a dumb mistake, the quickest way I've found to snap myself out of it is all right, let's say I miss a deer or a wounded deer, or I don't kill a deer, I flunk of whatever, And that bitter pill is hard to swallow. I'm sitting there wallowing in it. If I can remember to just like look at a picture of my kids or just call the boys like something like that, Right, there's like, man, all the other stuff is nothing compared to this. And if you can just shift your perspective to to the core the very most important things, you realize, Wow, I would sacrifice everything else, just as he'll have that, my sons, my family. So those two things are little tools that have helped me a lot, because I would be so susceptible to I am just like my natural personality type. I think success. I'm sorry, failure is not an option for you. I think, no matter what, you will find how to turn some into success. You've been doing this for a long time. You have that mentality. I think a lot of us here do we. We don't allow this idea of failure to be an exit point, because that's giving up is a terminal illness, you know. So yes, not planning, it will be planned B. If not B, we'll find us see adapted, see then D. I think you're very good at adapting. And it's there's nothing wrong with feeling bad. It's helpful to feel bad. Otherwise how do you gauge what feels good? As long as you can turn that bad feeling into a problem solving, And you're a really good problem solvering, Mark, I mean you too, Clay. I think everybody here's the otherwise who wouldn't be here. I get a question for you, So you got to spend some time with him and his family. You were there in person. Is there anything you took away from that spending time with him, learning from him that you would apply to your own life? Was there like a nugget or a lesson that you and I said this in less words on the on the podcast, I was impacted by by the demeanor of Warner Glenn's humility, and I think it partly was my expectation. I've never met the man before, western cowboy, dry ground, lion hunter, tough guy I expected, and I said this. I expected a proud man, not a bad man, not a pride full man, but just a guy that just was like I am who I am, and and what I saw was a humble man. And there were multiple things that happened, even off when we weren't recording, that made me think, like what I have responded that way one of them. And this sounds so small, but sometimes small stuff impact you. I asked him what color one of his mules were and he said, I'd call it strawberry run. And then he said, you're a mule man, what would you call her? And I just thought, that's a dumb question. I'm not a mule man. You're the mule man. And he was genuinely interested in what my interpretation of the color of this mule that he'd had on his farm for the last fifteen years. And I guess just right where I'm at in my life, I was I have worked on boldness and confidence as a as a thing, moving out of insecurity and fear, movement towards boldness and confidence, which if you swing the pendulum too far, you become arrogant and think you know it all. Here's this guy that should have did have boldness and confidence, but also had no problem with me, this young guy who doesn't know anything like telling him what color his mule was, that his humility impact the way carried himself. He deflected praise like I would say, hey, Malpi Borderland's group, you started this, you were this main guy, which he was. He totally deflected that. And and I see places in my life where I'm I'm not wanting to deflect praise. And that's the stuff that'll get inside of your heart and screw you over because it it you building a case for yourself that like I am something special, I mean, I am good at that, and and it's it's it's okay to be good at stuff, and it's okay to know your capacity and have that confidence of you know, I'm competent in this. But pride and confidence there's a fine line between it and I think, I think we can go we can go the wrong way. And what I saw in Warner Glenn was great Boltenson confidence, but also a deep humility. And again it goes It's one of those things that you could say the words that he said, and if it was connected back to a guy that really, deep in his heart was prideful, it wouldn't have impacted me. But I saw a humility inside of him. The real question is, Clay, what color did you think that mule was? I had no idea, and I told him, I said, I don't know, uh it was? He called a straw dre and I agreed with him, But I would not have Probably somebody more versed in the equine world would have been able to it was. It was kind of a reddish base color, but a lot of white dappled into it. So, yeah, do you have a photo of that mule, Yeah you should post it on Instagram and asked the world, Well, there's no need to, Warner told me it's strawberry rowan man. Well, I'm just curious. It's like their blue dress, black dress. Yeah, yeah, maybe people see different rays of color. Hey, um, what did you guys think of out Warner getting in the fight with a border patrol agent. I think that is a amazing story and that that happens now that person would never see a lot of date again. And and that's kind of sad because it was a personal, interpersonal conflict between two people who had had history together. And sometimes something so simple like that could could just relieve a bunch of stress or de escalate in a weird sense, in in in a different environment, it could be a disc deescalating scenario instead of an escalating one, you know, where verbally they could have been assaulting each other, and maybe for the type of people they were, it would have been much worse. So you're saying like this like solved the problem they had. I think it should have been Okay, okay, like no, no, no, I'm not saying that's said. It sounds like they had a relationship that was escalating towards that, and I think they were both consenting to that kind of relationship. They could have definitely solved it just by behaving differently, but neither of them at that time wanted to. So that's what I perceived that the details of the story were this we we didn't get into the actual details of the story. So this is like big open country. They use that phrase, but it's true, it's just big open country. Well, they have roads through the farm, and one of these roads had a gate on it that just inhibited vehicular traffic on the road, just so somebody that's not supposed to be there could just drive down the road. So it wasn't keeping cattle out at what wasn't doing anything. Well, Warner goes to his gate and he sees that someone has driven around the gate and driven on the road, and he sees tire tracks on his grass, and out there, grass is a very valued commodity for cattle, and so he's like, somebody drove on my grass. And he had actually, like some time before, had talked to the border patrol because they come on his land freely constantly because of where he lives on the border, and he had told he had seen so two or three much prior, he'd seen tracks. Just driving through one of his fields, he sees a Border patrol agent and he says, hey, I saw some strange tracks in my field. And the guy goes it was me, and Warner goes, hey, no problem. Do you mind next time trying to stay on the road, and the guy this is a different guy than he fought. The guy says, no problem, I'm sorry, it was a mistake. Two months later, Warner goes to this gate. He sees tracks going around the gate, which they had a key to the gate, so they could have just unlocked the gate and went through it. This new Border patrol agent says, yeah, it was me. I drove around the gate. That's how it started. And then Warner's like, well, sir, you have a key. I have given you permission to come on my land. As the cattle rancher, I've asked you not to drive on my grass. That's the way I make a living. And then the guy spouts off and goes, I can do whatever I want. I misunderstood that story. I thought it was the same guy. I thought it was a conflict that had It's a conflict, was just with the agency driving on his land. But so there was a couple of guys that were like no, just like absolutely, sir, our fault are bad. This guy came in with an attitude and was like, I can do whatever I want on your land because I'm who I am and I wear this uniform. And that's that's what made Warner mad. Okay, I miss interest to the story. I retract my statement. Well, I think I think it could your statements still made sense to me. Well, I just feel like it's it's dangerous because what happened is Warner had conflict with organization of people, and this man, for whatever reason, triggered that nagative energy. I don't think you should be disrespectful when he's allowing you it's private land, he's allowing you to take access, and he's been so generous to you. I think there's there's other ways of doing things, and I don't want to hate somebody. I don't think that's a very nice thing. I don't think he thought it was a nice thing either, but he he could just been having a bad day. I struggle a little bit with putting it in there because it's it's not like we want to like highlight and say someone's a hero for beating up a law enforcement guy. That's actually the opposite. It's the opposite of everything. It's the opposite of what I'm saying about Warner Glenn being a humble man. That is the opposite of humility. It's also the opposite of just in general. You're not gonna want to do that in your life. I don't mean interrupt, but I was gonna say what I think showcase. What you're speaking of, though, is how he processed what happened and how he spoke to you about it afterwards, and the fact that he said, you know what, Yeah, I gotta I had to own it. I took my I took my lumps. I made a mistake. I became better for it. You know knows he shouldn't have done it. Now he's hot in the moment. Think about all the different options I think, really in your life with the people that you know and somebody, let me just get okay. Option like, there's different endings for this book. The book to this point goes to Warner Glenn getting in the fist fight and sure enough, rubbing his face in the dirt. Did you like do you like how he said that. I thought it was real cowboy way to say it. He was just like I put his face in the dirt. He's he so Option one is he gets in trouble, he defends himself to the point of like I was justified in this. I don't care what you say, and he becomes bitter the rest of his life at the at the Feds, and that bitterness would translate into him giving them trouble for the next eighty years of his life. He stays up at night thinking about ways that he's gonna stick it to the Border Patrol. That would be a very likely response. I mean, think about it, some old cowboy out in the desert. That is a very real possibility. And then maybe there's just two endings. The other ending is the guy going, I made a mistake. This guy was you know, the guy was in the wrong. Sure in this individual little sector. This guy, yeah, I was probably a punk, but it was a mistake and he wasn't embittered against the Border Patrol. He has a great relationship with the Border Patrol. But his ability to bounce back from doing something wrong, which that is a human trait that is highly is a very valuable trait because everybody's gonna mess stuff up so much. Your life is not getting it right every time, But how you're gonna respond when you do something wrong, because man, bitterness is like the And I think that's part of what maybe Warner was insinuating talking about when the first thing that came out of his mouth when I asked him what's the secret to having a good life, he said, don't worry about stuff. I think that could be. I think people sometimes become embittered or fearful or hurt in some way by real negative interactions. But to be able to take that, grow from it, learn from it. And then sometimes I think in somebody's life, maybe the conclusion that you come to isn't always as direct in the person's mind. But in the book there's a book written about Warner Glind called Warner Glind The Life and Times of an American Cowboy, I think is what it is called. The author, Ed Ashurst, is the one who made the conclusion that that interaction when Warrener was forty seven years old, scripted the next well, you know now almost forty years later in his life. Because he became very skillful at dealing with people that were in opposition to him, which he said he used to have a really volatile temper. It was an inflection point for him, and I think maybe in Warner's you know, I mean, if you talk to him, you know, it's not like he probably was just like I will now change and become a great diplomat to the federal government. Like but it but it impacted him, and he he he became somebody that was very influential in that part of the world. And they were known for bringing together groups that hated each other and we're at odds with each other, bringing them in Manu. Guys like Warner, wherever they go, it seems like they bring stabil a the in peace just like just just just an ability to just like walking through it. Just like Warner, Glenn riding up on his you know, banditos carrying drugs across the border. Like he didn't get killed, He didn't the situation. You know, somebody could have gone to that and blew that situation up, pull their gun. What do you guys doing You got drugs? Er, I mean you freaked out or something or ran away or Warner just rides up on his meal and just like hey, you know, a lom. He goes got some drugs. Okay, well we're just lying hunting any line tracks ride past. It just just to deescalate the situation. So that's what he learned to do, which before maybe his his thing was to escalate it. It sounds to me like he's a really good leader, and it sounds like his daughter has acquired those skills from him. Did you get that impression when you were around them? Sure, Yeah, for sure, just hearing her talk about her father, or talking about the work or the activity s. They just felt like she really benefited from his his state of mind and it has learned a lot, And I think that's super attractive. I imagine he had a lot of miles in the saddle to think about and replay that whole experience, like with the agent, Like he's you know, when he's out riding the range and looking for lions, and I doubt he's got headphones on listening to the podcast. He's probably just reflecting on his life. Of course, he's obviously right now he's saying that, But yeah, I imagine he had a lot of alone time to really think about that, what impact that had on his life and how that could have gone in a lot of different ways, like just being able to sit quietly with yourself and reflect on that they're probably yeah, helped him come to that conclusion. I gotta kick out of how when he told his old man about the experience, So I can't do that to a law enforcement office. Yeah, yeah, you wonder you wonder where, like where that came from. He's like, wait, you can't, Like I thought that was I kept that in there so much. But I liked it because his dad took his side. You know, his dad could have been mad at him. Dad could have been like, Warner, you're jeopardizing our whole life. You could you know, he could have been he could have scolded it, and he could have. But his first response was to take the side of his son, which that could have gone either way too. I mean, it seems natural that you take the side of your son, but not necessarily. I thought it was his way of explaining to his son that it's okay. Yeah, in a very very nice, relaxed manner. Man, do you think there's some old retired Border Patrol agents It's like, oh, man, like father like son, Like Marvin's had a dust up before and he's like, probably not to throw shade on Marvin. I doubt that happened. But yeah, well, guys, thanks for thanks for being guests on the Burgers podcast. This has been good. You guys are like the astronauts gone to the moon. Thank you for having us. Thank you a million times for not only having us on the show, but having a secure family home, taking us out to your mountains, showing us the ropes. It's been a it's been a treat. Yeah, well, it's been a lot of fun. True shout out to Gary and Judy. Yeah, thanks as well. Yep, yep. If we'd had a seventh Mike or a night Mike, we'd had Judy and Gary on here with us. But next time, next time you really need to maybe you there to have because I haven't got to listen to all the render episodes, but the world needs to know about Gary's detail oriented white tail. Were you impressed? I was really impressed. Your dad is way more white tailed gear savvy than you are. Clay, Oh he's he's in it nuanced. Yeah yeah yeah, and say, oh man, we've we've now started a whole another segment of the podcast. I am the way I am because he's the way he is. You went the opposite direction, I really did. I will just lay out this illustration. This one simple thing told me so much about Clay. When we packed up camp to head into go hunting the mountains and he had his climbing sticks, they were loose, there were ropes everywhere, and he was just shoving individual single sticks into the pant hears of the horse. I'm thinking, man, is this how you operate? And so yeah, different strokes for different folks. And your dad as though, talking about how he's drilling his climbing sticks to reduce weight and he's using am steel ropes to be as quiet as possible, and discussing how he saw a photo of how I stacked my sticks on the back of my backpack and how envious it made him, and how he wanted to find new ways to organize his stack. Hey, yeah, I would say this in front of my dad. So this this is not like hiding something, but like his The way he handled hunting stressed me out as a kid because we we had to I mean it's classic father son stuff. We had to, you know, try to meet his standards for stuff, and it it stressed me out and So when I left the coupe, when I went to college and started hunting the own, I went into a season of life that my hunting was very shortened because I had a family and was trying to build a career in life. And I had to determine what were the limiting fact true limiting factors of my hunting. And I cut off a bunch of stuff. And I don't tell anybody, but I actually killed way more deer. All right, No one gets a rebuttal. Thank you guys, very good. Appreciate great week. Keep the wild place as wild because that's where the deer go through the saddles.

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