00:00:14 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore. 00:00:41 Speaker 2: What do you got there, Brient, picture of catfish and the picture weighs eight pounds? 00:00:46 Speaker 3: Tell me how. 00:00:48 Speaker 1: The picture weighs eight pounds? 00:00:50 Speaker 3: Yeah, the picture weighs eight pounds. He's so big. 00:00:53 Speaker 1: That's big, old flathead. What did it weigh? 00:00:56 Speaker 3: Thirty six pounds? 00:00:58 Speaker 1: Thirty six pounds? 00:00:59 Speaker 2: How did you get We caught it on the try line and turn it. 00:01:03 Speaker 1: Loosely, turn loose the big one. 00:01:06 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:01:07 Speaker 1: What were you fishing with? 00:01:09 Speaker 3: Uh? Brim live? I'm telling you man, it was to go to confession. 00:01:15 Speaker 2: For using something that tastes fabulous to catch something that tastes good. 00:01:22 Speaker 3: We were using big. 00:01:24 Speaker 4: It's about quantity, not quantity. 00:01:26 Speaker 3: We were using big blue gill. 00:01:27 Speaker 1: Which is your favorite fish of all times. You'd rather read a blue gill than a. 00:01:32 Speaker 2: Steak in anything, name it anything. And we were catching flat is. But it was just so much fun. 00:01:38 Speaker 1: How big a brim were you using? 00:01:40 Speaker 3: Oh, buddy, hand size, that's that's a hooking them in the. 00:01:44 Speaker 2: Tail, hooking them right in the liking worthy in the neck, Yeah, in the neck, neck, like right up. 00:01:54 Speaker 5: There where you cash fishes like that sometimes. 00:01:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what do you call it? Cash? Where do you call it? When you you hook them at? 00:02:04 Speaker 1: I know, malcam well, he said. The next he said, hook like. 00:02:10 Speaker 3: In the like in the top of the tender lawn, right like that. 00:02:13 Speaker 1: That is only Brent would think that a bluegill has a tender loin. I'm not sure that they do. Hey, we need to we need to introduce, uh, introduce our guests. We have really a distinguished guest on the render. This is unusual because usually. 00:02:29 Speaker 3: I'm usually here every other week. 00:02:31 Speaker 1: Well uh, usually the feature guest on the Bear Grease is not able to be a render guest. But Russ Arthur from East Tennessee is with us today. Good to have you, Russ. 00:02:44 Speaker 6: It's it's great to be here and see some of the faces that's been involved in this. 00:02:48 Speaker 5: I yeah, man, it's good. 00:02:50 Speaker 1: Well, and then, but the real guest who I was actually talking about, as the distinguished guest is Cash. This is US's grandson, Cash. How old are you not? And uh, big, big blue gill man, I guess big fishermen. Do you like the catfish? Yeah? 00:03:09 Speaker 7: Yeah, I like to fish a lot. 00:03:11 Speaker 3: Good. 00:03:12 Speaker 1: Well, it's good to have you. 00:03:14 Speaker 7: Nice to be here. 00:03:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh, now Bear, everybody's got a little show and tail. Is that your show and tail? 00:03:20 Speaker 3: Oh? Sure? The eight pound pound fish and the spam socks. I go, wait a minute, what. 00:03:28 Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, okay, I'll take. 00:03:31 Speaker 2: It like a six pack of spam socks. Okay, they're good. 00:03:38 Speaker 1: Show break your bobcats. So so Bear killed a bobcat with his treadbow. Shot it back in December, and look at this. I shot it pretty much. I shot at once and missed it at like three yards, had a squirrel in his mouth that pitched. The squirrel ran out ten yards behind me, and I shot at it again. But it it moves so quick that it ducked and turned and the arrow just hit it right in the back of the head. Look at that. If you can't, you won't really be able to see it on the video. But there is a broadhead that entered right there. And if it had just had a little more energy, it would be poking out the front kind of a buzz. It's like pushing the top of the skull. It's such a lucky shot. I mean, it's like exactly in the center of the brain or something. And now the coolest part us I don't know if you heard the story earlier, but the coolest part of the story. Bear was deer hunting, and that bobcat came walking down the creek with a squirrel in its mouth, big gray squirrel in its mouth, and he he kills this bob He shoots and the bobcat drops the squirrel, jumps up on the bank and then turns around the like, hey, I just dropped my meal. You think that's why. I mean, I don't really know, but it just was like ten yards standing there looking at me. Didn't have a st I know, if Brent had a squirrel, yeah, and something spooked him and he dropped it, he'd come back for it. 00:05:13 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you'd had to shot me in the head to get me off. 00:05:16 Speaker 6: Well, you know, I've got a very short story that deals with squirrels, where a friend of mine hunting squirrels in the mountains back in East Tennessee. Two falls ago, was still hunting squirrels and he shot two of them, and he was waiting for a few more to come out, and he went to pick him up. There's a little bit of underbrush there, and he was trying to find him. And when he found one of them, a bear had physically picked it up and was walking off. 00:05:45 Speaker 3: Pretty cool. 00:05:46 Speaker 1: He was shooting a gun. 00:05:48 Speaker 5: Yeah, he was shooting a gun. 00:05:49 Speaker 1: Now it's but the bear wasn't scared off by the gun shot. 00:05:53 Speaker 6: Evidently it wasn't. And but I see he had. He'd been five or ten minutes after he'd killed those two. 00:06:00 Speaker 1: Oh, he was just sitting still. 00:06:01 Speaker 6: Sitting still, and shot them both from the same from the same location, probably twenty two were shooting at twenty two and was sitting there and let the woods settle down to see if any more squirrels came out. Finally he decided, I'm going to pick up my squirrels, and he worked his way through the brush and met a bear that had one of his squirrels. 00:06:19 Speaker 1: In my day, Wow, that that is interesting. 00:06:22 Speaker 8: So so bar and I Boone and Crockett scored that. 00:06:25 Speaker 3: We did that. 00:06:26 Speaker 1: Bobcat this one and one damn you killed. That's right, and you're scored what eight inches even eight inches? 00:06:32 Speaker 8: Even so, if anybody's got a bigger boone and Crockett squirrel than that, we we. 00:06:37 Speaker 1: Bob yours bobcat squirrel. 00:06:41 Speaker 4: Yeah, send us a pick, Send us a pick. 00:06:43 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:06:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we seen a bob cat and we was trout lying the other night where was frog gigging. Then laid up on the bank. You hardly ever see them, you know, just if they see you, they're they gone. 00:06:53 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we got it was a high bank. 00:06:56 Speaker 2: He's probably twenty thirty yards away, about thirty yards away again, he was laid up there and was watching us. 00:07:02 Speaker 3: We got, we went on by. 00:07:03 Speaker 2: And finally we've crossed the line where it was too close, and he just got up. 00:07:07 Speaker 8: He was like, look at those jokers wasting that brown Yeah for real, nose it off. 00:07:13 Speaker 3: Yeah, bigg hm hm hmm. 00:07:16 Speaker 1: Well I was I was trying to think of the I've killed several bobcats. The most memorable one was catching one on a on a snare one time and then you know. 00:07:28 Speaker 3: He was like, oh he was targeting him. 00:07:31 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I remember walking up on it. You had to get pretty close to the snare before you could see if you'd caught anything. And I mean he was like fully alive, jumped up on a bungle of log and looked at me right in the eyes, big old. It was a twenty pound bobcat. Yeah, caught it right over here by the house. 00:07:49 Speaker 3: Wow. 00:07:50 Speaker 1: Mm hm, well man, this uh what shows your bow? 00:07:55 Speaker 7: Bear? 00:07:56 Speaker 1: So Bear gave us an update on the bow last time, and now it is fully complete. Well like nine, I still got a kind of sand out the imperfections in the seal, but yeah, I've been shooting it a lot. It's it's about fifty pounds at twenty eight inches, so it shoots. Tell us about what you about the aesthetics of it, Well, it's an osage orange bow. It's a snaky bow. So basically the grain on the stave that I was using just kind of has waves in it like a snake, and pretty much you just follow the grain. So I put copperhead skins on the back road killed copperhead, and then it's got pronghorn tip overlays from a pronghorn that my buddy killed in South Dakota. And then it's got a gray fox kind of buffer on the arrow rest. That was actually the first animal I ever killed. 00:08:53 Speaker 3: With the bow. 00:08:54 Speaker 1: Right up there was fox yep, gray fox And yeah, I think it's if you saw that lad on the ground out in the woods, you jump, wouldn't you. 00:09:06 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that is a very good job. 00:09:09 Speaker 1: In the turkey feathers, oh right, Yeah, that's from the turkey I killed this year. Yeah, it's a beautiful bow. 00:09:14 Speaker 2: Is there a significance in the number of turkey feathers or was it just covering up? 00:09:18 Speaker 1: This is just the right amount to cover it. But it is a little shiny. I think I'm gonna kind of sand it in a way where it's less shiny. 00:09:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:09:30 Speaker 1: It shoots good though. It shoots really fast for a self bow. 00:09:32 Speaker 3: That's pretty Yeah. 00:09:33 Speaker 1: I felt like it shot really fast. 00:09:35 Speaker 2: Your hand good. Yeah, I did mine because you know, in case you need me to. 00:09:40 Speaker 3: Get a handle with. 00:09:46 Speaker 1: Russ, I have something I wanted to give you you and cash. You don't have that book? Do you needed your outdoor Cookbook? 00:09:55 Speaker 5: No, we do not. 00:09:56 Speaker 1: This is uh I want. I want to give this to you guys, So if it if you haven't listened to the last actually the last three episodes, we did an extra drop today. You see that pretty sharp, wasn't it. We did the first episode called runt Over, where Russ told the story of his early career in law enforcement getting runt over by a guy, and then the next one, the next episode was called Yellowstone Poacher, which was super interesting, and then we did one today that what do we call it? Appalachic Cola tree bandit yep. But so anyway, Russ your man, and Russ has been also he's kind of a Bear Grease hero now, and I've said this before, but I got to say it again. People listen and don't get caught up. The way that I met Russ was really unique for me because I did this story on two guys from my hometown of me And Arkansas named Louis Dell and Charlie Edwards, who I grew up my whole life. No, I mean, they were like my dad's age guys, but just grew up around them, grew up around their kids and ken folk, and I mean it's just these guys. They were notorious turkey poachers. There's just no other way to say it. Wonderful, lovely people. We did a whole story on the three full Bear Grease episodes and Loui Delle and Charlie had passed away, and and that was part of the reason. It just kind of felt like it was time to do the story is the year before, Yeah, the year before. Louis deal had passed away and Charlie had passed away a few years before that. And I interviewed well, I talked to to miss Edwards, Louis Dell's wife, talked to Stony Edwards, their son, talked to multiple people that knew me. And it was just a neat episode that kind of contrasted this idea of these guys being notorious lawbreakers but also being people that were respected and loved in the community, and kind of contrasting this this thing that I felt inside of me knowing them. It's like, wait a minute, do I like these guys or do I do I not? I feel conflicted, And we just explored that and and people loved it. I loved it well. At the end of the second episode, I got a call from a friend of mine and and uh, he said, Hey, I know a guy that worked Charlie ed Louis del Edwards was was assigned to work for work him undercover. And he said he lives in Tennessee, and he said, I can probably could get him to talk to you. Yeah, Joe Lawles, the guy who Joe, And he said he's retired, he's not working in law enforcement anymore. And I was like, really, because what was so interesting was that the family and all the people over there had felt like that and may have had some a little bit of help with it, had felt like that that Louisdal had been worked by an undercover agent. And so they had all told me the story of Louisdale and this undercover agent, you know, twenty years after it happened, but it's still it was like they didn't know if it really was or not. And anyway, I go and meet Russ and Tennessee. First of I met him, and it was kind of like talking to a ghost, you know, because i'd heard, well the wildest thing. And I told you this before, Russ. But Andy Brown, who would have never met you, would have ever known who you were. He said. Louisdale said, one time, I think there was a guy that was working me undercover, a young guy, brick layer from Tennessee. And he said he was the best natural voice caller that he ever heard. So one of the first things I asked Russ when I met Russ was said, let me hear your al call, let me hear your turkey call. And he and it was kind of like kind of like hearing a ghost of from thirty years ago, you know, this like mirage that showed up. So let me hear your yep rush No later, later, later. It was just a unique it was a unique deal. And uh and then you you you were on that it was and it was Russ. It was this Russ Arthur. That's how I met Russ. And then amongst all that, just off the cuff, he was telling me some other stories and in my mind I was like, I'll be back, Yeah, I want to talk to him about those. And so anyway, that's what the last really three episodes have been about, and that people just like those stories are so unique. 00:14:48 Speaker 3: Cool. 00:14:49 Speaker 1: Anyway, that was a long way to say, here's a book and guess who it's signed by, None other than one Stephen Ryan Nella. 00:15:00 Speaker 3: He's signed the back page. 00:15:02 Speaker 1: Well, Steve, there it is, yeah, Steve Rania. Well so yeah, man. 00:15:08 Speaker 5: Very very much appreciated. 00:15:11 Speaker 4: And you're gonna have to do some cooking. 00:15:12 Speaker 1: Yes, I think I think I got I got some sugar here. 00:15:16 Speaker 5: Cash, I've got something better. 00:15:18 Speaker 3: Go ahead. 00:15:18 Speaker 1: Well, I'm sorry, I'm just like hogging the air here, I've got I've got a recipe in here, cash, Yeah, Clay Dutch oven bear grease biscuits. 00:15:30 Speaker 5: Now that'll be good. 00:15:31 Speaker 3: There you go. 00:15:32 Speaker 1: Hey, no, those were at Christie's regular. 00:15:40 Speaker 6: Hey, but but who rendered down some bear grease this year that we might get to make these biscuits? 00:15:45 Speaker 5: Who killed a bear this year back in our camp? That's right? 00:15:49 Speaker 1: So maybe uh, okay, somebody in. 00:15:52 Speaker 6: Our camp killed a good bear this year. Oh really, and one of our best friends, and we'll get him to use that. But when when we're off the air, we're gonna pass this around. We're gonna get everybody's signature in there, okay. And then where will this book go? 00:16:08 Speaker 7: Well, we'll probably keep it out the cabin. 00:16:10 Speaker 5: You're exactly right. 00:16:12 Speaker 1: Thank you figured out I would have left bathroom. 00:16:17 Speaker 6: No, that's that is that's special because we're all about trying new food anyway, and and where it came from and its meaning is very very very well received. 00:16:29 Speaker 5: Thank you. 00:16:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, you bet, you bet. Gosh, I've been uh, I've been hearing about your uh your turtles. Yeah, why don't you tell me about what you're doing with turtles? 00:16:40 Speaker 7: I got four turtles? 00:16:42 Speaker 5: What kind? What kind? 00:16:43 Speaker 7: I got four box turtles? And we feed them like pretty much every day, me and my friends like to keep up with them. We Our first turtle we found was in our neighborhood. We're just kind of random. We just thought it'd be fun to have it for the day, but then we got like, we really liked it, so we kept it, and then one day he got out, but we wanted to look for more since it was really fun having that one. So Ever since that, we've started collecting turtles pretty much. 00:17:17 Speaker 1: What kind are they? 00:17:18 Speaker 5: They're box turtles, box turtle. 00:17:20 Speaker 1: What do you feed them? 00:17:21 Speaker 4: Uh? 00:17:22 Speaker 7: Well, you're supposed to feed them a bunch of different like worms, vegetables, but we feel the fruit. Yeah, that's pretty much only thing they'll take. 00:17:33 Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, now, okay, I'm kind of an old turtleman myself. There was always like real shy turtles and then like real like not shy turtles. How are your turtles We've got? 00:17:46 Speaker 7: Like, there was one that we got recently, actually the day before we came here. He was really shy. 00:17:55 Speaker 1: He's really shy, so it wouldn't come out much. 00:17:57 Speaker 7: No, he was really shy. 00:17:58 Speaker 1: Eat in front of you. 00:17:59 Speaker 7: Yeah, I've seen of hunger anybody. 00:18:03 Speaker 1: You'd be surprised what you do when you're hungry. 00:18:05 Speaker 7: Yeah, I've seen all of them except for the new one to eat in front of you. 00:18:10 Speaker 5: Do you have? I have four? Right? 00:18:13 Speaker 1: You told me you were going to have a hard time remembering their names. 00:18:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, just make up something. 00:18:18 Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't really tell the names. 00:18:21 Speaker 1: All I remember. Well, we have Larry. 00:18:23 Speaker 7: He was the first hurdle. He only has three legs. 00:18:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, whoa what leg is he missing? 00:18:29 Speaker 7: He's missing is back right? 00:18:31 Speaker 3: His favorite one. 00:18:34 Speaker 6: And Larry was the first one that wasn't able to climb out of our pans. 00:18:40 Speaker 1: Larry. You might be extending Larry's life and keep him. He's a little vulnerable, does he when he walks? Does he drag that back right side of his shell? He kind of skid marks on the back of it. 00:18:53 Speaker 7: It's kind of like the bone. He still likes to move it because it's still like a little little nub. Yeah, but he likes to move it, and it sometimes will dry against the concrete. 00:19:04 Speaker 1: I bet he feels it itching and it's not. 00:19:05 Speaker 6: There, Well, tell him what your what your goals on these turtles? What are we going to do with them? 00:19:12 Speaker 7: Oh, we want to try to breed them to get babies and then release them into the u at our farm. 00:19:21 Speaker 3: Oh that's you know. My brother I was down there the other day. 00:19:25 Speaker 2: We were getting ready to go to the river and go fishing, and he had an old wire milk crk right on the edge of his yard and I said, what's in that old milk crate? And he said nothing. He said, but underneath it, he's a turtle nest. And he saw a tearraf and get over there and dig a hole and lay the eggs. And when she'd left, he put that over there so nothing would dig it up. 00:19:45 Speaker 3: He's been waiting for him to hatch out. 00:19:47 Speaker 2: So if he has any questions, I'm gonna have him call you for some for some consulting word. 00:19:52 Speaker 8: Okay, you think that that curple turtle could get a prosthesis or something, he could release them back. 00:19:58 Speaker 5: Into the wild baby. 00:20:01 Speaker 1: Carve out a little peg leg for it. 00:20:04 Speaker 4: There you go. 00:20:04 Speaker 6: He asked a question the other day about when the when the new turtles hatch out, do you think any of them will only have three legs. 00:20:14 Speaker 1: I get a good question was it a was it genetic flaw or did he lose it in an accident? Or perhaps Larry is a daredevil that can be genetic too. Yeah, you know, kind of like. 00:20:25 Speaker 2: He's a risk taker, Larry kickstand tripod. 00:20:30 Speaker 1: I've never heard of a three legged turtle, you know what. I get pictures sitting to me all the time up though. Its three legged bears really often. I'm kind of like the three legged bear guy does it walk? 00:20:43 Speaker 5: Weird? 00:20:44 Speaker 3: Man? 00:20:44 Speaker 1: Those three legged bears are just as fast and a bear. I don't even know why God gave a bear four legs, because the ones that have three seem to do just fine. 00:20:55 Speaker 3: We filmed one up in Saskatchewan. If you remember, really. 00:20:59 Speaker 1: When you say that it's sparky memories the day was it missing just like a we called it? 00:21:05 Speaker 3: Oh nothing, Yeah, he was missing like his elbow or something. 00:21:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, you always wonder how that happened. 00:21:10 Speaker 2: He was running with the one that had the mains as o'hayed was all all his hair was all gone. 00:21:15 Speaker 1: That they were rough times, the crew. 00:21:20 Speaker 8: Mangy, Yeah, the Island of Misfit Bears. Yeah, going to start a band in the. 00:21:28 Speaker 3: Cartoon. 00:21:30 Speaker 1: I'll listen to it, mangy in then. Uh, yeah, well, I'll be darn well. That's cool. 00:21:37 Speaker 5: That's cool. He's done a real good job with it. 00:21:39 Speaker 6: And he actually ordered some box turtle food and we've made him a quite extensive pen. Now they've got a big area around. Oh, that's good. Figured out when we needed hollow logs for them to get under, and it's got quite the quite the place. I'm proud of him. 00:21:53 Speaker 1: Excellent, excellent, that's good. 00:21:56 Speaker 3: He sent us the pictures of that. 00:21:57 Speaker 5: Yeah, we will. 00:22:06 Speaker 1: Man, I've got I've got so many things I would like to do. I want to I want to get into this episode. Uh Russ told the story that we wish we'd had recorded. It was a hunting story, wasn't It wasn't a law enforcement story. Tell me about that. This was just a couple of years ago. Yeah, tell me tell me about that. 00:22:30 Speaker 3: Buck. 00:22:32 Speaker 6: Well, there's a like any good hunting camp, you've got special friends that are associated with you. You know, we all been there, and Cash and I are very blessed having really good good friends in the hunting world that they they extend out to the non hunting times as well. 00:22:51 Speaker 5: So there. We're all up at the cabin. 00:22:53 Speaker 6: You know, we got a small cabin and we're going on a h about a three or four day deer hunt in this particular area that was a it was buck only and h you could kill any any wild hogs and it was actually one bear, you know, and it was we were going to be on a three day hunt. So we go up there on the first morning. Uh, two of my best friends. They took off into the back country a couple hours before daylight, and I just decided to hang around the camp and just take it easy. I can't remember. I was extremely tired or something. I was just gonna have a lazy hunt. And this more or less hunt around the cabin, and as luck would have it, I shot a pretty nice eight porner, nothing right home about, but it was a it was a good mountain deer and it was close to the cabin. 00:23:42 Speaker 5: Good meat. 00:23:43 Speaker 6: So we were all talking, what are you gonna do tomorrow? You know, we've tagged out. I said, well, I'm going turkey scouting. So basically, we always pick out areas on the map that we've never been. And I said, you know, we've always wanted to look at. 00:23:56 Speaker 5: This remote area here. I'm gonna go in there and look at it tomorrow. You know, who knows I might find a hog or or may be bear there. Well, I get in there, so you got your gun, got my gun, and I get. 00:24:08 Speaker 6: In there and I'm on my way out of this area and it's just monckster buck, I mean huge. 00:24:16 Speaker 1: How did you first see it? 00:24:18 Speaker 6: A doe came under so you're you were you were moving, Yes, I was moving, and you. 00:24:23 Speaker 1: Just caught her before she caught you. 00:24:24 Speaker 5: Yes. 00:24:24 Speaker 6: And she comes up this this this hollow, this draw open hardwoods, and I'm watching her and she actually goes up in beds down and then this big mountain buck comes up kind of following her, and he just stops and he's looking. 00:24:39 Speaker 5: Around and looking around and he's he's huge. 00:24:43 Speaker 1: You showed me a picture of it. I mean, you say it's one of the biggest deer you've probably seen in the mountains. 00:24:48 Speaker 3: It was. 00:24:48 Speaker 6: It was one of the biggest deers I'd seen in the mountains. And I'm sitting there thinking, you know, I'm retired. Here I am looking at one of the biggest deer and you know, what a what a way to test your your your your ethical nerves. You know, I've got contact with my two friends with radio, you know. Uh, we didn't have cell service where we're at, and be very easy for me to shoot it and Collumn tell them come and tag it. 00:25:14 Speaker 5: I'm not doing that. 00:25:15 Speaker 3: How far was it? 00:25:16 Speaker 5: Oh it wasn't but thirty or forty yards? 00:25:19 Speaker 1: You wait, you see the photos. 00:25:21 Speaker 6: I took pictures of it. I videoed it. It was you know, it was looking around. I got shots of it looking away from me. You know, a deer looks bigger when it's looking away from you. Anyway, So anyway, it passes, and I'm thinking, you know, that's good enough. 00:25:33 Speaker 5: I got pictures of it. 00:25:35 Speaker 6: Well, we get back to the cabin and uh and we find out through through some through some sources that they had changed the limit. 00:25:45 Speaker 1: Oh it's two. 00:25:46 Speaker 5: Bucks that year. 00:25:50 Speaker 1: So for years that had been one one buck. 00:25:52 Speaker 6: And uh, you know, the area manager tell of that area tells me you need to start reading your book. He said, last year we changed to one. 00:26:03 Speaker 2: So was it was it? You got pictures? It was okay then anyway or not? What's that you said? 00:26:10 Speaker 3: It was just as good. 00:26:15 Speaker 6: But the sad part about it is the very that would have been three years ago. So the past two falls, I have stamped the area dry and not found that deer sign anywhere. 00:26:25 Speaker 5: I cannot find any sign. I don't know where he came from. 00:26:27 Speaker 6: It's just like he decided to go through there and torment me that one morning. 00:26:31 Speaker 1: You know, man, there's something about the ones that get away from you that. 00:26:36 Speaker 5: You should have killed, that you'll remember forever. 00:26:40 Speaker 1: One time, about a year ago, I sat down and I rode out every big buck that I qualified as should have been dead, but wasn't, you know. I mean, it's easy to remember the deer that you killed because you got their horns and you got that memory. And uh, but there's something about the and I'm talking about the big ones, like you know, the good shooter deer that you wanted to bring home with you. 00:27:08 Speaker 3: And uh. 00:27:08 Speaker 1: And I sat down and counted up eleven deer that I could. I can tell you more about those deer than I probably can the ones that I killed. Oh yeah, you know, just just like the scenario, the sequence, what happened. And uh, I was just I had that list and I don't know where the list is. I can make the list again, but every one of those deer kind of had a name, you know, the so and so farm buck that this mountain buck. And and uh, I kind of looked at that, and I think there's a correlation between that number and the number that you have actually killed, you know what I mean, Like if you well, it takes a lot of time. I mean I spent just as much time trying to kill those deer as I did the ones that I did kill. 00:27:54 Speaker 2: It's a statement on what what the deal is on while you're out. There's not just exactly because if you if it's just about killing them, you wouldn't even remember them. 00:28:02 Speaker 3: Well, let's about these over here. 00:28:04 Speaker 6: And you know, I was told a long time ago, son, you're gonna you're gonna remember those misses a lot more than you will to kills, you know, from when I was fifteen, sixteen years old. That was that was and it was so true. But on the funny side of that, this year, I missed a turkey that unmistakably should have been killed. 00:28:29 Speaker 5: And my best. 00:28:30 Speaker 6: Friend fifteen yards behind me opening day public land and four longbeards came in. Doesn't happen on public land? First time that has ever happened to me? And uh, And after the mess. We're sitting there by the tree and he's trying to remind me and by we're going to remember that? And I said, you know, you're right. I said, but it's been a long time since I missed. And then he started reminding me, well, what about such and such? 00:28:59 Speaker 3: He might not have remember what he did? 00:29:01 Speaker 5: What about this? And I'm like, well, yeah, but I'm trying to forget that former former Yeah, but that's but that's so much true to that. That's a that's a that's a testimony to while you're there. Yeah, exactly right. 00:29:15 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, and this one's this year now, that was Uh, he'll remember that, miss Have you forgotten it yet? 00:29:22 Speaker 7: No? 00:29:23 Speaker 5: Okay, well yeah for sure not. 00:29:24 Speaker 1: I gonna forget it now that you're on the Bear Grease podcast and told everybody. 00:29:28 Speaker 7: Well, if you ever decided to go hunting with him, always beware that he might. 00:29:34 Speaker 3: Uh. 00:29:34 Speaker 7: He's so desperate to hear a turkey that he makes up it. 00:29:38 Speaker 1: Your grandpa does, Yeah, he makes it. So he'll be sitting there and he'll be like, I think I just heard one. Yeah, what does he say? 00:29:46 Speaker 7: He says, there's one over there, cash, and then I we'll be waiting there for a couple like twenty minutes and then I'm like, he doesn't call again. I'm like, are you sure there's one over there? And he's like, yeah, I'm for sure. I heard it and I never heard it. 00:30:03 Speaker 1: Hey, what does so? I know every every dad, grandpa, every turkey hunter has a certain way that they act when they hear a gobbler, like you know, yeah, Like what what does your grandpa do when he hears one and doesn't expect it? 00:30:17 Speaker 5: M I would say. 00:30:21 Speaker 7: He gets pretty excited. He It's like he gets excited, especially if I'm with him because he likes to have that experience with me. But he gets pretty excited. 00:30:32 Speaker 1: And what does he say? Does he just does he point? 00:30:35 Speaker 3: Does he? 00:30:38 Speaker 5: Honestly? 00:30:39 Speaker 4: I don't really know. 00:30:41 Speaker 2: You don't do like my brother did me and like push me backwards. He don't push it back down or anything like that. 00:30:48 Speaker 7: Although when he was trying to get me the other way, he did like throwby. 00:30:58 Speaker 5: Turkey was coming around the other side the tree. 00:31:00 Speaker 1: We had to do something. 00:31:04 Speaker 5: I can't do my my my normal friends that way they turn. 00:31:09 Speaker 1: Just move them. That's good, hyah, that's that's good. 00:31:14 Speaker 3: Brent. 00:31:14 Speaker 1: What do you do when you hear a turkey, yeah, do you have to say something? 00:31:19 Speaker 2: Well, when it's me and you, and it's and me and my brother. A lot of times if we're there together and we hear, we'll point and he'll be pointing this way, or you'll be pointing that way. He'll be pointing this way. 00:31:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:31:30 Speaker 8: Yeah, he does this. He does it with his hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, there he is right there. 00:31:37 Speaker 3: Let's go. Yeah. 00:31:39 Speaker 6: And there's been a lot of a lot of arguments on direction. That's the big thing, especially if you're hunting mountains. But then I've had occasion to hunt some flat ground and it's even worse. 00:31:50 Speaker 2: Oh, me and my brother were standing on We were standing on the Lake Slouth Bridge on the lower Potlatch Road in Cleveland County, not far from Slam River. 00:31:57 Speaker 4: So if you want to find a turkey, that's where you go. 00:31:59 Speaker 2: It's behind He just ca you had the parachute in there. But I'm standing facing downstream and he's looking upstream, and turkey gobbled and we looked at each other and both in the opposite direction. All though, did you hear one? 00:32:16 Speaker 3: Dude? 00:32:16 Speaker 2: He said, no, did you hear one? It was the same Turkey, but I was right. Because I have the microphone, I can say. 00:32:24 Speaker 3: You were right. My dad. 00:32:25 Speaker 1: My dad always told the story, you know, just like childhood lore. He remembered, and I think it happened when he was first started bow hunting and was just kind of getting used to, I don't know, tracking deer in the dark and getting out of navigating the woods in the dark. And he said he and his buddy had shot this deer, killed the deer, and had tracked it pretty long track job, and then it's like, all right, we got it. And he said they they guted it, and they're like, all right, that's head of the truck. And they he grabs the back legs, the guy grabs the front legs, and they just had an opposite and then they stop and he's like, where are you going? And he's like, I'm going to the truck, and where are you going? I'm going to the truck and and you know, they didn't have GPS or cell phones, and he said they had to sit there and listen in about you know. Some time later, a truck came down the gravel road and they they remembered which one I honestly can't remember if dad was here. I'm sure he was right. 00:33:23 Speaker 2: Me and Michael was leaving the tree the other night, hot Man trying to go back to the bucket. Yeah, we're walking, walking, walking. I'm like, do you know where you're going? He said, I'm following you, one of us was. I was following him, he was following me. We made a pretty good roundabout we got back to the side. 00:33:42 Speaker 6: So that one of the one of the things that I really appreciate around our camp now is there's a been a lot of kids that's been raised in that camp that are up like bears, age and and and older that that we're we fight now to get them to go with us because they got better. Donny, what can he go with me tomorrow? 00:34:07 Speaker 3: Hey? 00:34:07 Speaker 6: What's cash? 00:34:09 Speaker 5: Which way was he? Boy? I'm not proud. 00:34:12 Speaker 1: You can't hear direction very well though. I remember whenever I was a little kid and you bring me which way was that? 00:34:20 Speaker 3: Turkey? 00:34:21 Speaker 1: Oh? I was never really confident on which way I heard it, But I just remember you couldn't hear him at all. Oh, I I've got I got a bad ear and I can't course one. Uh, I try. I considered for a while getting my when I fed my mules gobble, so that day when they heard a turkey gobble, they would keep because I envisioned being being in the mountains riding my mule and hearing a turkey gobble three hundred yards away, and is he just going I just never did it. I just never. I just never pursued it. I think it would be pretty really, it's a funny. It's a fun thing to think. It would be very difficult to do. Now, they will queue in on just like if they see something, they hear something, they absolutely will queue on it. But something like some far off random noise, like they're not gonna they're not gonna mess with it. But uh, talking about direction though that this is disconnected slightly. Coon hunting story. I'll never forget this greatest most unsolved mystery in Clay's life of all time. Uh, what's that? It was a black panther, black panther. It's definitely in a black panther country. But I was in the in the Washtalls when I was a kid coon hunting, and uh, this story is not that good. And I remember we cut the dogs loose and go to a tree hound and there was a there was a big creek and it was such a good place to hunt because there's two big mountains and a creek, and the creek's running running downhill, and you know, we walked up the creek to get to the truck, or to excuse me, we walked away from the truck going upstream. I mean, it's just impossible to get lost. But we go to this tree dog and I dropped back down to the creek and know, I mean with every ounce of instinct that the truck, that that's downstream. You know, that way is the truck. And when I get to that water, the water is going to be flowing that direction. I mean it would have been like if I had thrown an apple up in the air and you say, which way is the apple going to fall? I'd be like, it's going to come to the ground. I get to that creek and it's flowing that way, And I said, Lord, you have flipped the earth while we went after that coon. The Lord has literally turned the earth in a circle. I remember it was the first time in the dark that I was just absolutely scrambled. It was real disoriented. I was just like, what just called getting lost? But I, I, you know, followed what I knew was riding, sure enough there was a truck, but disoriented. 00:37:20 Speaker 5: They spend the. 00:37:20 Speaker 1: Rest of my life disoriented. 00:37:22 Speaker 5: It happen. 00:37:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever been real lost? 00:37:26 Speaker 3: There? 00:37:28 Speaker 1: I can think of one time when I had this real I was chasing a turkey down this ATV trail, and in my mind I had this real clear image of like where the main road was in comparison to where I was. And so there was like two roads that split like you they tee off and that there's road that goes north and road that goes south, and the main road was parallel with them. The road that goes north kind of would like it turned and started going west, and so I thought, I don't I don't remember the exact details, but I started going down that road or the south road, and in my mind the main road was just like right down the mountain. I chased this turkey all morning, and eventually turkey, I lose them, and so I just start walking down to get to the main road. And I just keep walking until I get to the bottom of the mountain and it starts going up and there was no road, and then I start hearing like ATV's way over here, and so I was just like, well, maybe it's over there, walked over there, nothing, and so eventually I just started walking in and I just picked a direction and walked and popped out on the road. Yeah, there was a game warning coming around actually about that time. Oh and I was totally illegal. Absolutely nothing died. 00:38:51 Speaker 6: You know what's amazing about that is, as I've learned, when you do run across roads or trails that many times will get you not paying attention to your terrain like it really should be, especially if you're doing land navigation with a map, that you you'll travel further and faster on those trails and roads than you normally would, and you're not paying there as much attention, and you do get those those visuals in your mind and where you act. Because that's happened to me several times. It's thinking, hell, but it seems like all the times that I've been turned around like that, it's been when I've run across a road or a trail that I that I thought I knew exactly the direction that it went. 00:39:29 Speaker 1: Do you use a map online like on x hunt or anything on your phone. 00:39:35 Speaker 6: I've got mapping programs on my phone, but I still I still carry a hard copy topo map in a map case that I that I checked frequently. 00:39:45 Speaker 1: Really and oh yes, oh yeah, old school. 00:39:49 Speaker 6: Well it's you know technology, if you if if it's got a battery, it can go dead. 00:39:56 Speaker 5: Yeah, you know. 00:39:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're dangerous dependent on that whole thing. 00:40:01 Speaker 3: We are. 00:40:02 Speaker 1: I mean, what if you'd lost it? Oh yeah, I mean and and in most places, you know, getting lost is not that big a deal. It's just more of an inconvenience, right, But there are places where you get lost you could be in trouble. 00:40:13 Speaker 5: Well, there's there's a. 00:40:16 Speaker 6: There's a lot of people that that if you just gave them a topo map, a hard copy that that that couldn't get around. 00:40:23 Speaker 5: M hm, you know that couldn't get around. 00:40:26 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:40:27 Speaker 7: I saw an ad. It was like it was questioning people, what how do you think you would do if I took away your sofhone for twenty four hours? And they said, uh, there was one guy that said I could probably do it, but if it ever did come true, it was something like, I probably wouldn't let it happen. 00:40:53 Speaker 8: How would you do without your phone for twenty four hours? He'd be just fine withn't it? 00:40:58 Speaker 1: Yeah? 00:40:59 Speaker 7: Maybe wat. It depends on who's with a lot of times, if I played with my friends, I would be fine. 00:41:10 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 00:41:11 Speaker 1: I lost my phone the other day and a kayaking kayak flipped and got washed away, and it was like the last two days of Turkey season, and so I tried to set an alarm. I had a turkey located and I tried to set an alarm on my computer and it never went off. And I didn't have a phone for like three days and I never never was It was the last day of Turkey season and I just knew right where one was. But I lost my phone the day before in the river, and it was a big, inconvenient. 00:41:42 Speaker 4: Sad story, sad story. 00:41:45 Speaker 3: How many numbers you hunting from home? 00:41:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I was hunting around here. 00:41:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, they'd make an alarm clock. You can get it. 00:41:54 Speaker 1: Nobody has an alarm clock around Let's talk about this episode, Yellowstone Poacher. Super unique story of Russ. Is such a good storyteller? 00:42:17 Speaker 5: Two, Yeah, he is. 00:42:20 Speaker 3: It was. 00:42:22 Speaker 1: It was just a unique story in so many ways. Josh, what what stood out to you about it? I? 00:42:28 Speaker 8: Uh, it's interesting to me. 00:42:31 Speaker 4: When when was that Russ? 00:42:33 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you know, we didn't tell about the approximate day to that. 00:42:36 Speaker 6: That would have been in the. 00:42:39 Speaker 8: Mid nineties, Okay, so that would have been a bit of a different experience than it would have been today, just with with technology. But the fact that this guy was able to run this scam for a while, it sounded like, was pretty amazing to me. And the fact that he would just cherry pick his his customers at these these things, we were pretty amazing. But but just the fact that this this guy could continue to get customers with this food, hanging out there and taking I mean, it's amazing to me that. 00:43:11 Speaker 1: I mean, he probably didn't have repeat the customers. 00:43:14 Speaker 6: No, it was one time customers and uh and and most of them were successful, so you know. 00:43:19 Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, Or the fact that nobody turned him in, you know, pretty amaz Yeah. 00:43:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, you think that's pretty common for people to do stuff like that. Like so if you haven't listened to the episode, you should. But I mean, this guy was illegally outfitting, Like you can't you can't charge somebody money and take them in really anywhere in any state. Like if you're going to do any kind of guiding in any state, you got to have a license. I mean, in Arkansas. It's cheap, it's not a big deal. But primarily where he was getting in trouble as he was guiding people for money on public land in Montana. But but the kicker was that they were oftentimes going into Yellowstone National Park. 00:44:00 Speaker 8: He was a legal guiding and hunting in the in the national Park. 00:44:04 Speaker 1: So my question was do you in your experience, So Russ was the regional supervisor for special agents in a big section of the US for the US four Service, I mean, is that common. 00:44:17 Speaker 6: Well, the the illegal guiding is more of an issue out west than it is back east because of the vast areas of public land that they have out west, and most states have a two tier process, if you will, before you can guide, you have to have a license through your state, like in Montana, you have to have a license to guide, you know, through the state of Montana. Then if you go on public land, you have to have a permit through the US four Service for the. 00:44:52 Speaker 1: Public that's specific for that track. 00:44:55 Speaker 6: For that track of land, and most of them are broken out in units. And the reason they do that is they don't want any overuse of any unit and they're able to manage it and spread them out so you've got quality experience, and they take into consideration and they work with the respective state agencies to ensure that, you know, you don't overload any particular unit. 00:45:17 Speaker 3: So they're also vetted by two different yes agencies. 00:45:21 Speaker 5: Yes. 00:45:22 Speaker 6: So what happens is is you have people that have either applied for and didn't get it, or just don't believe they should have one, that it's their god given right, it's public land, that they don't need a permit. So you have a lot of those people. And I've worked probably four or five different illegal guiding cases Montana and Idaho. So it is common as egregious as going into the park. I don't think that's very common. All indications were this individual had a pretty high success rate of ELK. Whether they come off the park or not, we don't know. 00:45:59 Speaker 1: I think me and Brent would have a pretty high success right, Yeah, don't we've never l conted, well Brent has yeah. 00:46:05 Speaker 5: Uh. 00:46:06 Speaker 6: And now now back east we have some guiding, but uh uh. 00:46:11 Speaker 5: But it's a process. 00:46:12 Speaker 6: And the sad thing is there are some really good outfitters across this country in the big game world, I mean some, and there it's a legitimate use, and people like that gives the guiding a bad name. It takes away opportunities, just took away and I you know, took an elk out of there that could have very well been on public land and probably went back and forth from public to park, public to park where it was where it was taken. So, uh, people like that need to be taken taken out of the gene pool, so to speak. I don't think we've got that large of a problem with guiding and illegal outfitting in the East. Have worked a few small cases in the East, but it is guiding is big business out west. 00:46:58 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:46:59 Speaker 4: Do you have any idea how many elk this guy ended up taking? 00:47:03 Speaker 6: You know, I think that particular year there was four or five. And that was another reason that we that we took the case as far as we did, and some things we didn't talk about on the previous podcast. You know, a lot of questions came up, you know, internally about the taking of that of that elk and what a lot of people don't understand. Back then, you didn't have a lot of technology as far as documenting what happened, you know, you know, video camera was all we had, and there are times when you would take a case if you're working undercover, and a defense attorney can can chew you up and say, that's not really what happened, and let's just play that scenario out and say that I didn't kill an elk. We come back and we ride up a case report. The US Attorney's office, you know, draws up an indictment, and we go to grand jury and we indict this guy and we charge him for illegal guiding on public land. He hires an attorney and they get me on the stand and said, did you kill an elk? No, so is it not true that he probably didn't have any intentions of you killing an elk there? Well, no, he gave me all the intentions in the world. Well it's my word against his then. But the big thing on this case, and we planned it that way eventually, that if we did take an elk, no matter where it was at, if we had to take an elk, I was not going to take possession of the meat. I was going to let him take possession of it. That allowed that meat to go back to his ranch. And that gave us what law enforcement caused probable calls to draw off a search warrant that gets us into that man's house, and we're able to articulate in the search, we're not only looking for the crime that that we know is there because of my testimony, but other crimes associated to that type of activity and illegal hunting, So we're able to get other clients' names, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that particular year, I think he had taken five or six different elk just. 00:49:20 Speaker 4: That one season. 00:49:21 Speaker 1: Yes, So that gives a lot of backbone to actually killing an elk. Yes, I mean because and I told I told him I have not heard Russell and I talked about this before we put this out, is that you know, it's possible somebody could be like, oh, you know this guy shot an elk illegally, probably had a great hunt, probably got the horns hanging in his house. I mean, you know, just stupid, something stupid. And I tried to be clear in the podcast that like this was very calculated and he tried not to kill one, but he had to. And we've talked about that in other parts. When we did the Artie Stewart episodes doing undercover work, RTI talked about like if you have to take an animal, and he's like, there's legitimate times where you have to take an animal. And anyway, I didn't hear anybody saying any giving you any flag for that, But it's it's interesting. It even gives more meat to it to tell that it was actually a prosecution strategy to have him take the meat back, you know. 00:50:28 Speaker 6: Now if not, we had had a hard time articulating that you needed a search warrant for that man's residence. 00:50:33 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because you were miles away from. 00:50:36 Speaker 6: Right and there was no evidence time, you know, a violation to that residence. 00:50:42 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:50:42 Speaker 6: But once that meat went to that residence and he called and confirmed me with me that hey, I've got your meat and horns, then you've got a reason to go there, you know, and seize that evidence that you know was part of the crime. 00:50:55 Speaker 3: How long have you been operating up there? 00:50:57 Speaker 5: Was it at least at least ten or twelve years. 00:51:00 Speaker 2: While as much as forty exactly. 00:51:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like a lot of people, like knew before even getting into it that it was illegal, Like a lot of the guy people that he would guide. Did any of those people get in trouble afterwards? Like, did they kind of like backtrack the people that went with them knowingly shooting an Elk on the park or just illegally. 00:51:28 Speaker 6: No, no, and and And the reason for that is a lot of those people and he did keep very poor records, so there was very few people, you know that we could really tie it back to and uh. And it would be really hard because your evidence is gone. M h, you're you're you know, you don't have any evidence other than you know, maybe something that he had written down in a journal or a log book, so you had no physical evidence of where they were at. 00:51:56 Speaker 5: You know. 00:51:56 Speaker 6: I was able to plot on the map this is exactly where we well was, you know, of all the encounters that I had with Elk. I was able to plod on a map as part of the case file. You wouldn't have had any of that, you know, with these other people. So it was very hard, but it took him out of the business, and I understand he's pretty much out of the business still. 00:52:16 Speaker 3: So. 00:52:18 Speaker 1: Interesting. 00:52:19 Speaker 6: Did he go to jail, No, fine, He was fine, very heavily. And he also I think I failed to mention this on the original podcast. He had to pay back the restitution for that Elk that was taken. 00:52:32 Speaker 3: That's pretty sport. 00:52:33 Speaker 6: He wasn't right, and so I think it was I think he got like a ten thousand dollars fine, pay three or four thousand dollars what they call a replacement cost of the elk, and then he was I think he was barred for hunting for five or ten years. 00:52:48 Speaker 1: Interesting, Brandon, what stood out to you? What was what was your what was the favorite part mm? 00:52:55 Speaker 2: I have thought about all I thought about Russ having to be in the visa entity of that guy. It was this, you have to associate yourself and align yourself that you agree or you condone the things that you absolutely are working to fight against. And it's a it's a back and forth a lot internally when you're hanging out. 00:53:22 Speaker 3: With these folks and watching what you're doing. 00:53:24 Speaker 2: When you just want to pick up a club and I hit them in the back of the head, really and it's just an internal struggle to condone or act like you're condoning what's going on and in participating in it. And it was the same way in the stuff that I did too, and that it was a it's stressful. That's where the stress comes in because you're having to just sit there and watch and watch and watch, watching this stuff's going on with, whether it's drugs or or game violations, either one. You know, it's something that you have dedicated your life to protect. But you realize then to be part of it and to help and to assist in keeping that stuff out of people's hands or protecting the resource, you got to get in there and get dirty and get the folks that are doing it. Because if you're not willing to get in there and get them, they're just going to keep doing it. Yeah, you know, so that identified a lot with that. Yeah, I bet you did. 00:54:27 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny I had I was thinking about Russ coming here today, and just last night I was I had the thought. I was just trying to put myself in the mind space that somebody might have to be to work undercover. And it's impossible because I, first of all, I've never been in law enforcement, so I don't really know what it's like to carry a gun and put yourself up against in dangerous situations with the bad guys. But I thought, what if I had to wake up tomorrow and go into an illegal camp for eight days. I'm fixing to go on a hunt, a legitimate hunt, and you know, like. 00:55:10 Speaker 4: What effects for the clarification. 00:55:13 Speaker 1: It was just it kind of scrambled my brain a little bit, like what if I had to go on this hunt? But it was actually I was pretending and we were gonna, we were gonna this guy was doing bad stuff and I was gonna be a part of it. It's just a weird. That's probably the most interesting thing about all this undercover stuff to me is just kind of the mind, the headspace you got to occupy and and anyway, any comments on that for me, either one of you you know you made I don't know if you know it, but Brent used to work undercovering our corg. 00:55:41 Speaker 5: Oh yes, I've picked on that. 00:55:43 Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure Russell tell you got to get in. You got to play that part, and you can't. You can't be that part whatever your undercover profile was. You can't be that guy. Just when you're talking to the target, you got to be that guy, wouldn't. You're fixing breakfast, you gotta be that guy. And he's asleep and you're sitting at the campfire waiting on him. 00:56:03 Speaker 3: You got to be that guy the whole time. 00:56:05 Speaker 6: You know, it's it's that and uh, and there's a there's a period there that your stress level is really high. And that's usually you know, your first thirty minutes with that person or first hour, and in that you know, I'm I'm here for the duration, so you know this was going to be a ten day back country hunt. And oh yeah, I met him one time at the Classic. But when you arrive out there to his ranch, you know, and he's and he's packing his stock and you're getting ready to go, and you know that that's your stress level right there. 00:56:44 Speaker 5: You know, has he done any checking on me? 00:56:46 Speaker 3: You know? 00:56:46 Speaker 5: Is you know, is everything going to be okay? 00:56:48 Speaker 1: Rights? 00:56:50 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, and and and you know, and a lot of people will be asking you a lot of questions and you don't know if they're asking you questions that they know the answers to, or you don't know if they're asking questions that it's just in conversation. So you don't, like he says, you don't know what that intention of that conversation is, just as you know how to. 00:57:11 Speaker 1: That's interesting, you say the first thirty minutes, because yeah, if you're just trying to make small talk, I mean, like yeah, you get somebody coming with you that you've never met, like if you're the outfitter, the illegal outfitter. Right, you're like, so tell me about your family. What kind of work do you do? 00:57:25 Speaker 5: Right? 00:57:25 Speaker 3: Oh? 00:57:26 Speaker 1: Really your bricklayer? Well, what kind of stuff? 00:57:29 Speaker 3: You know? 00:57:29 Speaker 1: I can imagine you're in your head, You're thinking, Oh, this guy's trying to sniff me out. Right, So did you think you in that situation, would you have visibly like if if your friends had been there with you, could they have told you were nervous? 00:57:43 Speaker 5: Probably? 00:57:44 Speaker 6: So really, yeah, you know, uh, you know, because the personality that that you are when you're undercover is is it should be different than you are every day. 00:57:56 Speaker 5: I mean, it really should. 00:57:58 Speaker 6: I mean that may sound crazy, but you you have to be yourself. But then you kind of have to set yourself apart a little bit and not be as talkative, you know. 00:58:08 Speaker 3: Uh. 00:58:08 Speaker 6: For an example, I I by nature like to talk, and I'm sorry for that for taking up too. 00:58:13 Speaker 5: Much Mike time. But but but but really, so. 00:58:17 Speaker 6: I have to I have to make a conscious effort when I would do undercover to shut up. 00:58:22 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, I don't need. 00:58:24 Speaker 6: To talk, and I'm sure this man right here can relate. 00:58:28 Speaker 1: It's impossible for Brent. Shut up. 00:58:31 Speaker 2: Just remember me telling you I was trying trying to cross the border. I'm like, answer the guy's question and nothing else. It's the first time we went across. 00:58:39 Speaker 1: The Yeah, Brent was like, Clay, you really messed that up. Chatting that guy is like, just answer the question. 00:58:51 Speaker 3: He asked your friend. 00:58:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, let's go ahead. 00:58:54 Speaker 6: But but that's that's true. So I would have to, you know, consciously just kind of be uh and on this particularly one, I knew that I had to. I had to work my way eventually back to a to a remote guard station, if you will, independently when it was time to get out of there. So so I kind of set myself up that I like spending time along, you know. 00:59:15 Speaker 5: I mean, you know, if if there's a you know, hey. 00:59:18 Speaker 1: So you would have said that to him? Yeah, really, how did you? How would you plant that without it sounded well? 00:59:24 Speaker 6: You know, this is this is just great country. I've always wanted to come out here. I mean, I'm wanting to killing out, but man, I really really enjoy kind of exploring too. So if I if I just get out and walk around is that okay? You know, I don't have to have you with me. I don't even have to carry a gun, you know, I just I just man, I like to I like to backpack. 00:59:41 Speaker 5: Look at them, you know, just enjoy what's you were. 00:59:43 Speaker 1: You were making a setting the table for you to be able to. 00:59:47 Speaker 5: To go and and give a message, which I owe something? Did I see? You know? 00:59:51 Speaker 6: So you know, but you just you know, set up things like that to where you can get time alone, you know. 00:59:57 Speaker 5: And and and back then, I took no recorders. 01:00:02 Speaker 6: I actually had a back day pack that I carried that I had a special kind of hidden zipper in it that had a ledger in it, and I would actually write making notes at night, you know, or if you're going to hike by yourself, you make all your notes. 01:00:19 Speaker 5: You know, what was said, who was. 01:00:20 Speaker 6: In camp and all, you know, all the pertinent information you needed for that particular day. You know, didn't have GPS is back then, but you will write it on the map. I have a copy of your map in there. And you kept that backpack, you know, with you all the time, and and if anybody did get in it, they couldn't find that little notebook. So you know you you would, you would set yourself up to where you could get some space to do your documentation. 01:00:47 Speaker 3: Interesting. 01:00:48 Speaker 2: The best thing that I'm sure it worked the same with us. The best thing that I had going for me is that I had enough money in my pocket that they'd forget just about everything else. What do you mean, They're there to make money. They're not there for you to kill the health. They want your money. They're greedy and they they didn't care the quality of drugs that I bought. They didn't care if that was up to what I wanted, you know, supposedly wanted. All they wanted was the one hundred dollar bills I had in my pocket. I've told the story before on here. I had an informative was buying drugs for me one time, and he was known informant, had been an informant for years. He walked up, knocked on the door, and the guy asked the door and he's dead now, even says his first name. 01:01:35 Speaker 3: He said, Leroy, what you want? He said, you know what I'm after. 01:01:40 Speaker 2: He pulled out a hundred dollars bill and he said, I know you're working for the police, but you got that money, Come on you. 01:01:48 Speaker 3: And he sold it to him and he was right. He was working for the police just that short term. 01:01:54 Speaker 2: That short it wasn't a short it was he was taking a chance because because Leroy had a drug problem. 01:02:00 Speaker 3: Two. 01:02:01 Speaker 2: So he was just rolling the disk that I know you've been He was saying, I know you've been an informant before, but I also know that you're buying drugs. So you got the money, right now, I'll take my chance. Yeah he chose poorly, as they say, but hey, I mean right or wrong? 01:02:22 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, money is the end rest. 01:02:25 Speaker 1: So you what you're saying is you carried around some money and like if things maybe the mood of the room was not great, you could. 01:02:34 Speaker 2: I just pay my money, get my stuff and walk out the door, or I say, I got the money you don't want to sell to me the guy down the street bill okay. 01:02:43 Speaker 3: Okay, okay, okay. 01:02:44 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:02:45 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a big motivator. Wow. 01:02:55 Speaker 1: Here's a topic that Russ and I have talked about off air, is that it's like we're talking about and I enjoy talking about it is this stuff that kind of goes on behind the scenes. And but the but the undercover work that Russ was doing and YouTube RN is kind of like old school. It's different now like it was. We talked about, you know, like could this be detrimental to law enforcement to like tell these stories or something, and what would you say to that rush. 01:03:34 Speaker 6: Well, you know, first off, the height of my career was there wasn't a lot of the technology that we have today. And you know, for for listeners who are not aware of the of the US Forest Service, you know, undercover was not a. 01:03:55 Speaker 5: Huge thing we did every day. And I don't even know. 01:03:58 Speaker 6: If we covered this in the previous pod cast, but that was just part of my job. You know, I had mess lab cases on National Forest. I'd have to work wild fire ars and timber theft cases. You know, the overt investigations was part of my job or whatever duty station I was at. So, you know, the undercover just something I kind of fell into, as we discussed in the earlier podcast. But at the era that I fell into it, you didn't have Facebook, you didn't have the social media, you didn't have the back you didn't have to have the backstops that you had to have today. You know, uh uh, you know, you you you would work through the respective state that you were in and get an undercovered driver's license. Undercover, you had an undercover social Security number, you know, you'd have you'd have all that, you'd have a little bit of criminal history on your driver's license, you'd have just the normal backstops that you'd have, and you'd always use a profession that you had something that you could talk about. And the brick land wasn't natural for me, and I could discuss brick and actually they laid some brick before them, some undercovered jobs. And uh uh so I couldn't survive in the in today's world of technology doing undercover. 01:05:11 Speaker 5: Uh, there's just there's just no way. 01:05:14 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:05:15 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:05:15 Speaker 1: So it's it's it's like talking about a way of doing things that really doesn't exist anymore, right, I mean is that I realize there's still undercover work that goes on, but it's just so vastly different. 01:05:28 Speaker 5: It's different, it's more technical. 01:05:31 Speaker 3: Uh. 01:05:31 Speaker 6: There there's undercover going on every day in the world of drugs, in the world of wildlife, and the world of gun trafficking. It's going on today, you know, right now, somewhere there's there's somebody being undercovered. Yeah, and and and and I commend those people that are doing it, because they are far more advanced than than I was, you know, twenty five years ago. 01:05:54 Speaker 5: I can tell you the hats off to them. 01:05:57 Speaker 6: It is a new era of people out there, and you know, just a lot more has to you know. 01:06:04 Speaker 1: What I think I actually have. Well, I may have heard a smidge of criticism back when I was doing the RT Stewart episodes with people saying, you know what, I don't like that our government does undercover stuff like that. That was that was something that they just didn't like that it was even a thing. 01:06:28 Speaker 5: Well, you know, I want to tell you something. 01:06:34 Speaker 6: And in law enforcement, you're always whatever agency you work for, you're looking for the edge to put the bad person in jail. You're not looking for the edge to make someone look bad. You don't single out a user group. You don't single out uh uh. You know, you don't profile and look for a specific group of people. You look, what is the problem and how can we address it? And I a lot of times, you know, it might be high visibility patrol. Well, if you've tried high visibility patrol, and you've tried you know, community education, and you've tried going into the communities and and and get and doing special presentations at civic clubs and you still have this particular problem going on, then you what tool is left? And a lot of times the undercover is is the last two you know, Uh, this the Yellowstone case. They had been getting reports of this guy, you know for two or three years, but did not have any way to approach it. 01:07:39 Speaker 3: The name, one other way you could have caught him exactly. 01:07:43 Speaker 6: And so you know there's a there's a lot of that that you have to consider and uh and it's uh and. 01:07:51 Speaker 5: You'll hear entrapment, right, yeah, Well you know this wasn't. 01:07:55 Speaker 6: A particular under I'll not get into that this case because it's a it's a whole other, lengthy story. But you know, you got to prove intent. You know, that person their intent was the breakfast, and you can't give them that idea. 01:08:11 Speaker 1: You can't plant the idea, Hey, I'd like to go killing el. 01:08:14 Speaker 5: No, no, no, no, you can't plant the idea. 01:08:16 Speaker 6: It's just like you know, he he couldn't as an undercover, couldn't walk around town and say I got some illegal drugs. You want to buy them? That's that's a no no. 01:08:25 Speaker 5: Uh. 01:08:26 Speaker 6: But but he could let it be known that you know, hey, if anybody wants drugs that he you know, he he back doors, figures out a way to get it out where the people approach him. He don't approach the people, you know, unless he's got information about this person that has predisposed themselves. 01:08:48 Speaker 5: And and and. 01:08:49 Speaker 1: That's a lot of legal technology. 01:08:50 Speaker 5: There is a lot of a lot of legal stuff. You know. 01:08:54 Speaker 6: We had a case in North Georgia working with Georgia d n r UH a guy that was illegal guiding hall hunts wild hog hunts, and we had a really tough time on that one. But through the help of some great Georgia dn R rangers, we were able to. 01:09:13 Speaker 5: Make that case. 01:09:14 Speaker 6: And that guy predeposed himself by advertising in a local area, you know, his hog hunts, and so we were able to approach him, you know. And but he had predeposed himself by advertising, if that makes sense. So, you know, you can't just plant the idea. 01:09:35 Speaker 5: That's entrapment. 01:09:36 Speaker 6: It's when a law enforcement offer plants the idea, it has to be the idea of the other person. 01:09:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think there's there's value. Like my response to people that would have been like man I don't like undercover and kind of kind of like saying that it, yeah, might be entrapment or in infringement upon you know, private see and stuff like that. I'm like, it's real easy to not be investigated by undercover agents and that's just obey the law. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty like like if you you're a strike bear saying he walked out on the road and there was a game board and we're like, oh, wow, what do you do? And he was like, well, now there's one exception to this rule, and that's this guy. I know. He's working me undercover right now. In the long game ten years, you ain't found nothing. 01:10:26 Speaker 3: Yet away from my backpack. That's all. 01:10:30 Speaker 1: I got a hidden So I think there's I think there's I think there's value in the world knowing that we take wildlife crimes serious enough in this country, and I mean obviously drug crimes and other things that are just even more blatant. I mean, you know, there's some people when we talked about all this long for there's some people that I've heard that say, Hey, why people sending people to prison or these very stiff finds for wild eye, Like, is it really that big a deal. I mean there's people that are, you know, doing all kinds of other heinous crimes. Is wildlife crime that big a deal? And I mean my answer is emphatically yes, it is. As a culture, we have said that wildlife, wildlife management is something that we value. 01:11:18 Speaker 5: Well, and that's very true. 01:11:20 Speaker 6: And I don't know how many times that I've heard you know, why aren't you out here working on the real crime? 01:11:25 Speaker 5: Right? You know, why aren't you working on a real crime? 01:11:28 Speaker 3: Well? 01:11:28 Speaker 6: You know, I do you know, you know, the meth lab cases, the the the murders on national form, we work those crimes. 01:11:36 Speaker 5: But you know what, uh, you know. 01:11:38 Speaker 6: When it comes to conservation and enforcement of our game laws, we have to partner with these state agencies, state agencies and work on it or will end up on with it's protecting our rights. 01:11:52 Speaker 2: You also, you know, you swear an oath to enforce the laws, not some of them. 01:11:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's all of them. 01:11:57 Speaker 6: It's like, you know, okay, here's the Code of Federal Regulations. 01:12:03 Speaker 5: Which law do you not want me to enforce? 01:12:05 Speaker 3: Exactly? 01:12:06 Speaker 6: You know, do you want me to you know, to quit enforcing this one or this one? And you know, and a lot of them are more egregious once you get into it than you think. And it wasn't an undercover case, but I could tell you a case in East Tennessee where a guy was trapping live bear and taking him back to his property at his house where he had about a twenty by twenty four enclosure that he was staging bear and dog fights. And when we were able to get enough for a search warrant for that residence, we brought in a specialist from a very well respected university and with a very well respected history of bear DNA, and we're able to prove that over a period of time that there was I think it was twenty something different bear had been in that pen. 01:13:05 Speaker 5: Oh wow, So you know, work. 01:13:08 Speaker 6: In one case how many bears died or was run through that type of just for the sake of entertainment and betting on bear and dog fights. 01:13:18 Speaker 1: Really? 01:13:20 Speaker 5: So wow wow? 01:13:22 Speaker 6: You know, so you have to you have to work them to find out how egregious some of them are. Yeah, and it's just I'm sure Brent can tell you. You might buy the nickel bag, but that is not what you're looking for. 01:13:35 Speaker 2: No, no, no, exactly, you're trying to get to the root of the problem. Is every every person's just a stepping stone to the to the next one. 01:13:45 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:13:47 Speaker 1: Interesting, interesting, Well, I thoroughly enjoyed all these stories in the the Apalachic Coald Tree Band. That story that came out. Uh, if you're listening to this recording, it's already out. But it was the extra drop. Yeah you bear, I didn't realize that was part of the homework. 01:14:09 Speaker 3: Well no, not just graduate, I'm done. 01:14:14 Speaker 1: Uh the higher education that that was. That was a great one too. 01:14:19 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. 01:14:22 Speaker 8: Boy that that I think that's one of the ones I enjoyed the most, just because, man, it just seemed like the trap was set when you went to finally those guys man, what what I mean like dominoes all the way down. 01:14:36 Speaker 1: I could just see Russ pulling out going. I don't know, but I gotta go. 01:14:42 Speaker 5: Driving a uglyugly rent a car. 01:14:46 Speaker 6: But yeah, and there's there's one that could have never worked with today's technology. 01:14:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we want to message away losing all. 01:14:55 Speaker 5: There's an example of that. 01:14:58 Speaker 1: Cash. What do you think about your grandpa? Nobody ever told you he was such a cool guy? 01:15:02 Speaker 3: Did they. 01:15:05 Speaker 7: Told me some crazy stories? 01:15:07 Speaker 1: What's your favorite story that your grandpa tells. Do you have one you remember? 01:15:11 Speaker 5: Well, how will I remember? 01:15:14 Speaker 7: It's not exactly my favorite, but it's okay. I have one because I uh that I remember because it's like the most craziest and it's about this guy that pooped it in the back of his car. 01:15:35 Speaker 8: It looks like we're going to have another episode. 01:15:39 Speaker 1: Car. 01:15:41 Speaker 5: And actually that that was associated Rainbow family member. 01:15:46 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and the Rainbow Full Circle. 01:15:49 Speaker 5: And I had forgotten. 01:15:51 Speaker 6: That's probably been two years since I've told him that story. He always asked me to tell him police stories, and uh, I'm about run out of them. 01:16:00 Speaker 3: Just make him up here. 01:16:02 Speaker 6: No, no, but that that was true. He was he was at a national Rainbow gathering and was arrested into put in the back of a Crown vict completely unclosed and having to be transported to jail, and just decided to defecate in the back of the car and spread it overwhere. 01:16:21 Speaker 5: Just to get back at me. 01:16:22 Speaker 1: So, uh, your vehicle, yes, yes, oh wow. 01:16:27 Speaker 5: So anyway, that's. 01:16:28 Speaker 1: Just that's not what I got expected. 01:16:31 Speaker 6: No, that wasn't what they expected when they go through the sally port either. 01:16:36 Speaker 5: When the guy's processing. 01:16:37 Speaker 1: He was yikes. 01:16:39 Speaker 5: So that's a did you come up with that one? 01:16:43 Speaker 4: Archives? 01:16:44 Speaker 1: Jesus if that's your favorite for what your second? 01:16:48 Speaker 4: He can't tell it on air. 01:16:49 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, we're going to have to hold that one back. 01:16:52 Speaker 6: I thought he was gonna tell about us going hiking or something, or to the waterfall or something fun. 01:16:57 Speaker 3: But anyway, mm hmmod job. 01:16:59 Speaker 5: I'm glad you pan attention, Isaac. 01:17:02 Speaker 1: Any questions you got cameraman back there? No, I thought it was phenomenal series of stories. Uh, and Isaac like it was interpret Isaac like the stories ahead. Uh, can't can't have him that lifestyle. Not good for that. Very thankful for it, ye yep, yep. Well, uh no, Russ, it's been a pleasure, pleasure to get to know you, man. I mean when we're gonna we're gonna stay in touch for sure. Just uh No, it's a you're You're a unique, neat unique guy in that Russ is a good storyteller. He's got great stories. And then just the integrity that you see inside of Rust. When Misty listened to Russ, she that's what she picked up immediately before she met him, was just like this is a good guy and the and uh uh but anyway, Yeah, for all your years of service and what you did. 01:18:03 Speaker 8: I think I think I'm grateful just to be able to have the open window to peer in and see that from the from your perspective that I. 01:18:12 Speaker 1: Think there's there's there's something to that. I mean, just just being willing to talk because I mean, not everybody would be uh. And I think it takes uh. 01:18:21 Speaker 3: I don't know. 01:18:22 Speaker 1: I think it's good that we talk about this stuff. I think it's valuable. But I don't remember if I said it. But part of my I mean, any any story that I do on bear grease, like I'm thinking about it from every possible way that I know how to think about it, even critically, like is this story is there is there is there some negative to telling this story because anything that I'm going to talk about, like, I want to get behind it fully and I do like to talk about controversial stuff at times. I mean, you know, and and uh, but I think there's value in people knowing that this is happening, like it it sets a it continues to show the the ethic of this country is that we live by the rule of law. Like you go to a lot of countries and other places, and people don't stop at red lights. People don't obey traffic laws. I mean, that's a big thing in the world in a lot of places. Here. Percent of the time, if you turn loose an American on a lonely country road and there's a stop sign, most of the time they're going to stop. They may do a roll and stop. 01:19:28 Speaker 3: Well it's a night. Then you can cut your lights off. You don't see any. 01:19:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's exceptions to this rule, but but the but the principle I'll stand by is that we are we are a people that have an ethic that that we we want we want laws, we respect law, we respect laws. And there's obviously exceptions to that, YadA YadA. But point being, this makes us realize that there's it puts teeth behind that and and honestly keeps keeps us all honest in a way. I mean, if if I know and not that not that I would be necessarily tempted to break the law. But if a person was, if he heard this story, he'd be like, man, I gotta you know they're they're people working to enforce these laws. Yeah, I just think there's value in that. Yeah, absolutely, I think they're value in it. Brent and I are gonna be in Venice, Louisiana on a Meat Eater Experiences trip. 01:20:32 Speaker 2: I think, uh, they'll let me take my trout line down there. 01:20:36 Speaker 8: Yeah, for sure, let's catch some redfish with trial, That's what I'm talking about. 01:20:41 Speaker 1: I think they've got a few spots left. The trips aren't cheap, Brent and I. I mean, it'd be nice if it was like five hundred bucks for like a four day trip all food, lodging, fishing, guiding, but it's not. It's more expensive than that. But there there's some spots left for that trip. 01:20:57 Speaker 4: Brent and if they want and you can get it. 01:21:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, it's a it's a fully guided fishing trip is what it is. But we'll be there with some of the other meteor crew. 01:21:07 Speaker 3: It'll be fun. 01:21:08 Speaker 1: I wanted to show everybody this to Mediator just came out with a collab with a co lab with the Montana Knife company. They call the flat tail. 01:21:18 Speaker 4: Perfect for cutting that apple up. 01:21:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, shows how it works. Josh, come on, come on, don't cut your hand. 01:21:23 Speaker 3: Out like this. 01:21:24 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take that. I'm gonna take that goat hunting. I hadn't cut anything with it. 01:21:28 Speaker 3: God man dropped it in the floor. 01:21:31 Speaker 1: I think that on the online One. 01:21:34 Speaker 8: Of the one of my greatest memories of my grandfather is eating apples with. 01:21:40 Speaker 1: Cutting them. Well, Russ and Cash, thank you so much for coming. I hope you'll have had a good time. And uh uh Cash take care old Stubby Larry for us. 01:21:54 Speaker 5: Well, we want to thank you and and the whole crew because. 01:21:57 Speaker 6: Uh, it's it's a it's a well worthy project that you that you work on, you do an excellent job at it, and so you've exposed a lot of I'm gonna go ahead and say this, and this is not a promo. Clay's not asked me to say this, but he is. He's reconnected me with a lot of people that I hadn't talked to in twenty five or thirty years from all over the country. 01:22:20 Speaker 5: Oh that's that's looked me up. 01:22:22 Speaker 6: And that I worked with, that I worked with and because I'm not a social media guy, and they found ways to look me up and uh and reconnected and and and got a lot of new uh what I would say, interest in the agency, which was one of the things that I really wanted to get across is because the US four Services, it's kind of a forgotten agency. 01:22:46 Speaker 5: It's a great agency. 01:22:48 Speaker 6: Got a lot of different functional areas within that agency and not just law enforcement. And uh, it was a great career and uh I appreciate the exposure, yeah to the agency. 01:22:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, right on, Well, we appreciate it, and I hope you'll have a safe trip back to Tennessee. 01:23:06 Speaker 5: Thank you.