00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife, wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On this episode, we're going to approach one of the most controversial subjects in American wildlife today, head on grizzly bears. Are they endangered or not? And more importantly, how should they fit into the modern landscape? Do we need them here? Point in blank? Do grizzly bears deserve to be a part of our ecosystem? Let's dive in. Last week we heard a conversation with one of the most fascinating humans I have ever met, Tom Parker's stories and insight Bear Charge and All were not only fun to listen to, but they also cue us up perfectly for a bigger conversation for grizzlies as a whole. We know that grizzly bears as a species were listed as endangered in nineteen seventy five. We know that, at least in the Bob Marshall Wilderness and Mission Mountain area, that both grizzly bears and black bears faced an ecological shift by the loss of high elevation white bark pine habitat. And we know definitively that these days, when grizzly bears come up as a topic in conversation, new publications, or virtually anywhere else, it most often comes up with a lot of differing and often strong and impassioned opinions, opinions such as grizzly should be delisted from the endangered species list, grizzly should remain on the endangered species list, grizzly should be managed as a game animal with a hunting season, or under no form or fashion should a grizzly bear ever be hunted. Like I said, there are a lot of thoughts out there, and to do this subject justice and to be able to cover it thoroughly, we have quite the spread of guests to hear from. But first I want to start this whole thing off by giving you two grizzly encounter stories from the same person. I think the contrast between these two stories gives us a glimpse of how complex this subject can be. And let me be clear here, my goal is not to sway you one way or the other or tell you how to think y'all don't need my help with that. I'm here to present the facts. Y'all make your decisions from there. Here's grizzly encounter number one. 00:02:25 Speaker 2: I can remember the very first time I saw grizzly bear. It was just that quintessential early September elk hunting. I was with my dad. I couldn't hunt yet. I was just falling along elk or Bugo, and it was foggy. We're in thick logical timber on this north facing bench, and we knew there was going to be bulls in there, and we can hear him bugle when we come over this little rise, and right on this big log was the grizzly bear is tearing it up, beating hands right. And I just remember the way my dad reacted was a way that I'd never seen him react. And as a father, now I understand completely. And now it's one thing to walk around with encounter of a goodly bear when you're with your little kid, you know there's a little more at stake there. 00:03:06 Speaker 3: And he just went. 00:03:07 Speaker 2: Silent and held really still, and so I just did the same, just mimicked because when we sat there and just watched this bear who had no idea. 00:03:14 Speaker 3: Were there probably. 00:03:15 Speaker 2: For half an hour as it just went down and ripping these logs up and eat nance. And I just remember how beautiful it was and how it was so strong, you know, just way was moving these logs and ripping them apart, and there was just something about it, and it just I remember that made a huge. 00:03:30 Speaker 3: Imprint on me. It's this idea like even when you see. 00:03:33 Speaker 2: Like a mountain lion or something like, wow, this thing's out here with me, right, because he don't see him officially back then, he didn't see him very often. Uh, And it was just this you were just a at awe, right, and at some level, I think barb the instinct you're just like, don't squeak, don't run, you know. 00:03:51 Speaker 3: So it's still yeah, and it was just this awe thing. 00:03:54 Speaker 2: And it's just after you have a moment like that and then you walk away with it, it's like those great hunt it right, and you walk away, you tell the story like forty thousand times and you just every's so jacked up and like happy and high five and and that story doesn't end for like four days. Yeah, And that's how it was with my dad. So it was it just imprinted in me so much, and it was just like that animal created that that moment, and so then I was just as a kid, I was like I wanted. 00:04:18 Speaker 3: More of that. 00:04:20 Speaker 1: And here is grizzly encounter number two. 00:04:23 Speaker 2: And then there's one time. And again I think it's important to tell the story because it's the truth of a bear's capability. I had a bear look at me in a way that I'd never been looked at before. 00:04:33 Speaker 3: And this was in Yellowstone, actually, yeah, it was this time of year. 00:04:36 Speaker 2: So we were going out to the very beginning of elk calving season. So elk start calvin. It's right now, May what fifteenth, So they start calviing like the next. 00:04:45 Speaker 3: Week or two. 00:04:46 Speaker 2: Sure, and the bears love e elk calves. 00:04:51 Speaker 3: I mean, that's just it. 00:04:51 Speaker 2: And some of them are very good at it. You know, some bear some grizzlies on the el caves at all. But if you're an elk calf eater and you know that food sources out there, they'll go look for them. So we were going to an area where I knew that there was gonna bears looking for all calves and we're gonna film it. So we go out there and it was just this big open stage brush and there was a bunch of cows out feeding elk, and so he knew there was calves stashed in the sagebrush. And so what you look for is when a bear's in a hunting mode and their behavior, their body language has changed. 00:05:23 Speaker 3: A little bit more. 00:05:24 Speaker 2: You know, bears kind of usually kind of wander and they're kind of slow, but when they're looking for something to eat, that's like in predator mode, they kind of have a little bit more of a heightened step of quickness to them, and they start to do this thing like a bird dog when you take a bird dog out. They just started to zig zagon, just trying to flush. 00:05:42 Speaker 3: That's what they're doing. 00:05:43 Speaker 2: They're just trying to flush the calves. Because they can't smell them, they just try to bump them and then if they get up or they'd make noise or move, they. 00:05:50 Speaker 3: Just nail them. 00:05:51 Speaker 2: So we're sitting there watching this bear coming in. I'm like, yes, it's perfect, I know there's calves. Here's a bear coming in, and all of a sudden it just stops and looks towards us and starts walking on a straight line, but with that same kind. 00:06:03 Speaker 3: Of heightened behavior. 00:06:06 Speaker 2: And I'll never forget because I always paying attention to the wind. The wind is blowing in my face, like fifteen twenty miles an hour, so I'm like, this bear can't smell us, so we're just gonna hold still. Well this it keeps coming and coming. I just think it's behavior is weird. It's kind of looking like it's looking at us right. So I stand up and I'm like, okay, I don't like the way this bears look. 00:06:26 Speaker 3: I'm gonna just let it know. I'm a person. 00:06:28 Speaker 2: Sometimes I just don't know what you are if your holding still right. So I just go up and I just like wave my arm, like come over here, bear, And as soon as I do that, it just starts jogging like faster, and I'm like. 00:06:38 Speaker 3: Oh, this ain't good. So then I want to thing I happen to me. 00:06:40 Speaker 2: The bear spray and I have a thirty mile an hour wind in my face or twenty mile an hour wind in my face. 00:06:45 Speaker 3: Now that this is not good. 00:06:47 Speaker 2: So I just I remember getting up on me, didn't hear me? 00:06:49 Speaker 3: And I go bear, I'm ready here, bear, And. 00:06:50 Speaker 2: I'm waving my arms and kind of doing jumping jacks, and he just starts scoring and ears are forward like locked in like a cat chasing the mount, and it's closing the gap. And I remember I was just with one camera guy, and I just remember thinking, I'm gonna reach down grab my backpack. 00:07:09 Speaker 3: I'm gonna throw the backpack at this. 00:07:10 Speaker 2: Bear, and then if it hesitates from that backpacks in front of it, I'm gonna try to like get off to the side of it and like do some like army roll and bear sprays. So when I picked up my backpack over my head, it was probably ten yards and it just as soon as I go like this, it just locks, it breaks up, just screeches. So I see this change of behavior, right, and I just hold that backpack over my head and I just hold still, and it sits there. 00:07:37 Speaker 4: And just. 00:07:40 Speaker 2: Just growls and just this big deep guttural move moaning, and it does these like little flinch like kind of like flinches towards us to try to get. 00:07:47 Speaker 3: Us to move. And I just didn't say anything. 00:07:51 Speaker 2: I just literally held the backpack like this over my head, and just as it started to kind of half circle walk around, just kind of mirrored it like a like a like a great dish, right, And I don't know what happened, man, it did this pride for twenty seconds, thirty seconds, but it felt like forever. 00:08:09 Speaker 3: And then it got to the side of us in the wind. 00:08:11 Speaker 2: I think it probably got a little bit of a whiff of us, growled and moaned a us a bunch more, and then it just walked away really slow. And when I looked at this bear up close, emaciated hip bones are sticking out. 00:08:26 Speaker 3: I looked in its mouth. 00:08:27 Speaker 2: It was gap mouth, and it was all salivating, and it was all foamy around its mouth. Its teeth were flat. This is a big, old male, old desperate and I know just the way that bear looked at us that it considered us as food in that moment. I think it's such a I mean, it's lightning striking twice kind of odds, but desperation, man, any animal us even right, yeah, probably would never have crossed that line. But it was at that point in its life where it probably was in the den all winter star went out there was trying to catch all calves, couldn't catch any. And then they just two two hundred pound dudes standing over there, and thought, hmmm, they look like I got to eat right, so I'll die, and it just it decided. But then I don't know, maybe I became six foot five with this weird hat on my head and didn't run, didn't make any did anything wrong, and just sold my ground And that was just enough to make it decide not to cross the line that day. But I didn't sleep for like three nights after that. It shook me so hard. I mean again, at that point, even thousands of encounters, but never one like that. And it's just one of those things where you're like, this is the reality is these bears are capable of doing this, no doubt, right, And if you let your guard down and you act like they're big, fuzzy, teddy bears, that's how you're gonna get hurt. It's going out there understanding what they're capable of, understanding what they really are, and and then being ready for it. 00:09:48 Speaker 4: You know. 00:09:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, It's just that's what you gotta do. 00:09:53 Speaker 1: Two encounters with grizzlies with the same person, but two very different experiences. The person you hurt tall talking there was a man named Casey Anderson. Casey's a lifelong outdoorsman, a naturalist, a hunter, and a person who has spent his career explaining nature to the world, which included some appearances on Oprah and Conan. By the way, some wild stuff. We'll also be hearing from some representatives from Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks. 00:10:21 Speaker 5: Danielle Euler, I'm the Wildlife Stewardship Outreach specialist at Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. I work throughout the entire state. 00:10:29 Speaker 6: Kyle Roscoe, I'm with Montana Fishwife and Parks Bear Management. I'm a technician with those guys out of Region three here in Bozeman. Jeremiah Smith, I'm the grizzly bear specialist FIR Region three in Southwest Montana, and I work for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. 00:10:43 Speaker 1: Between all the different perspectives that we have represented here, covering everything from experiences of a modern out doorsman, wildlife conflict, and wildlife biology. I firmly believe that during this podcast will be like a hungry bear flipping rocks over and search for food and leave no stone unturned. Let's dive in first by getting a basic grasp on grizzly bear biology and ecology. This is important having a better understanding of the animal in question will allow us to form much more informed opinions. 00:11:14 Speaker 5: First kind of cool thing to think about grizzly bears is like the landscape that shaped them, just like with black bears. You know, grizzly bears are animals of open landscapes, not exclusively so, but you know, prairies, tundra, meadows, places where they can dig for food in a grass dominated landscape with cover. Their utilizing all their habitat. So that's a defining feature. And we think that part of why they are reactive to encounters, why they act a little bit different than black bears, is that being an animal of open lands, when they're you know, encountering a threat, their instinct is to stand their ground and protect themselves or act aggressively. So I think that's the why grizzlies have the reputation that they do. So it's a little bit of their evolutionary history, right. And then as far as they're yearly cycles, so they're coming out of hibernation in March, April and May, they're awake all the way into the fall. The beginning of the season is kind of a slow progression of bears coming out of their den. Then they're looking for food anywhere it's available, high up in the mountains or down low. The biggest limiting factor there being snow, so once our snowpack is melted off, they could be high or they could be down low. And then breeding season is Midsummer. Then later into the fall they go into hyperphasia, so that's like late August to the time they hibernate and they're eating as much as they can to get ready for winter, and that's when we see a spike in human bear conflicts because bears that are getting ready for winter eating as much as they can, they're not as aware of their surroundings, so it's just pretty easy to surprise them. One study showed that they consumed up to twenty thousand calories a day at the peak of hyperphasia. So that's not the entire time, but you can imagine a wild animal looking for that amount of food. How easy that would be because I like forging, hunting all that, and I like knowing my plants, and I try to think about going in the woods and like getting that much for calories in a day, and it would be it might take me a lot longer than a day to find that much food, so it's easy to surprise them that way. And then all of us here bowhunters in this group, so I have no shade on bow hunting. But bow hunting is risky in bear country because you're quiet, you're sneaking around the time of year when they're easy to surprise, and you put your in kind of the same areas as the grizzly bears are, and then they're going into the den end of November, beginning of December, so that's a little bit of a rundown on their yearly cycles. 00:13:38 Speaker 1: Gris habitat selection and yearly cycles essential info for forming opinions and making decisions on a species. Now let's learn about their size and what they eat. 00:13:48 Speaker 6: I'm glad you brought this up because it's a myth. 00:13:51 Speaker 2: That's a good point. 00:13:52 Speaker 4: Ye, it's the reason great topic. 00:13:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you'll hear like, oh, that bears stood fifteen foot tall. 00:13:58 Speaker 4: That's eight hundred pounder for sure. 00:14:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:14:00 Speaker 6: Yeah, no, everyone thinks we have these eight hundred thousand pound bears. Jeremiah and I we handled two adult male grizzlies this week. One was four hundred the other was four to sixty. And that's a great average size. Granted they're coming out of the den, but a lot of our bears haven't lost a ton of weight, you know, right when they come out of that den. So four or five hundred, it's not an uncommon size for an adult male. Grizz and his prime females are that two to three hundred, I mean two fifty. That's a good average sized female. 00:14:27 Speaker 4: And there's a fall weight, and there's there's a spring weight, right, so they're going to gain calories as they go through. 00:14:32 Speaker 6: So yeah, I think the record of out of all you know, over a thousand bears we've caught down here in the gritty Yellowstone ecosystems, just over seven hundred pounds. 00:14:40 Speaker 1: Really, I'll tell you what, which you'll hear at home, right. I won't say here it all the time, but I have heard it. I mean, like it does make sense. Right, the further you get away from grizzlies, the higher of the misunderstanding to get. But they're like they got a thousand pound bears out there. I don't think they do. 00:14:55 Speaker 4: Alaska, Yeah, not down here, but Alaska, we don't have the cow down here. 00:15:00 Speaker 6: I mean, it's a tough place to make a living. For these bears. They eat over two hundred and sixty different things down here to make a living. 00:15:07 Speaker 4: You know, really, from the day they get up to the day they go to bed, there's on average about two hundred and sixty different species between plants, animals, you name it, that they kind of move through. They're an opportunistic omnivore and that's why they're still walking the planet. 00:15:22 Speaker 1: Okay, we've heard bear encounter and charge stories from Casey. We've heard grizzly ecology and biology from Danielle, Kyle and Jeremiah, which leads me to believe that we're ready to dive into more thought provoking questions such as how should we manage grizzly bears today and how should we shape our human attitude towards them. 00:15:42 Speaker 2: I grew up in Montana, so since I could walk, I've been in grizzly bear country. I mean almost every day for thirty thirty five years, I've been out in grizzly country, or some facet of that. I've spent I mean an imaginable amount of time. I've had thousands, no exaggeration, grizzly bear encounters. I've spent a good part of my life sneaking up and trying to film grizzly bears doing the opposite of what people should be doing. So I fast tracked to trying to understand them. And then on top of that, when I was twenty five, I. 00:16:11 Speaker 3: Decided I was going to raise a grizzly bear. Yeah, I saw that. 00:16:15 Speaker 2: So, you know, I've had this like crazy kind of grizzly saturated kind of life, you know. So I've seen all sides, you know, and I like to put it in perspective. I mean, I've raised the grizzly bear. I've wrestled with the grizzly bear. I've been charged by grizzly bears in the wild, and I've carried a man's body off the mountain. 00:16:33 Speaker 3: That's been killed by a grizzly bear. 00:16:35 Speaker 2: I've seen the whole spectrum. They're all a product of their environment and how they've been raised, and how they experienced the earth, and their time on Earth and their experiences, and I mean, I know, you know, and it's a big issue right now. When you're making management decisions based on fear or emotion, they're not making good decisions. And I worry about that with with grizzly bears a little bit, and I think that you see, you can see the result of that. I mean a lot of times it's like and people are like, why do we need them around? 00:17:06 Speaker 3: You know, that's what you get that all the time. It's like, why are we even worried about them? 00:17:10 Speaker 1: Why are we trying to keep them here? 00:17:12 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:17:13 Speaker 1: And so my question was having the understanding and kind of like the value system that I have from so much time hunting. I want grizzlies around, But how do you explain to somebody like, this is why we need them here? How do you get that across? 00:17:26 Speaker 3: It's a tough one. 00:17:28 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a question I asked myself all the time. 00:17:30 Speaker 3: I mean, do we need them here? 00:17:32 Speaker 2: You tell me? 00:17:33 Speaker 1: Yeah? 00:17:33 Speaker 2: I mean I think that if we decide that we're going to weed out everything that makes us uncomfortable in the wild in the wilderness, we're going to kill exactly what the wilderness is. And there's something to be said about a grizzly bear being out there. When you walk around here in Montana, in grizzlebear country, you feel it, right, It's a feeling you don't feel probably in Mississippi it's a feeling you don't feel a lot of other places, and there's something about that. There's a value in that that's you can't replace it. And you know, you know, there's all the you know, you hear all the rhetoric and things that people say about you know, they're a keystone species. There a specie that indicates a healthy ecosystem. 00:18:13 Speaker 3: That's true, I think. 00:18:14 Speaker 2: At some level. But again it's like what does that mean? 00:18:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big it's a big broad term that sounds nice, What does it mean? 00:18:20 Speaker 3: What does it mean? 00:18:21 Speaker 2: And I do think that you know, if a grizzly bears living there, it does indicate that you're in a place that is healthy. And I think ultimately, no matter why you want that resource to remain intact, to have that indication is a wonderful thing because a healthy ecosystem is something that everybody, no matter how you use it, is important. And if that requires it you have to carry bear spray or a handgun, learn how to. 00:18:44 Speaker 3: Use both your tools. 00:18:45 Speaker 2: That requires doing different things with your food sources. If that requires us having that outdoor knowledge to keep these places alive, I think it's a it's something worth having and we're doing Casey gave us a lot. 00:18:58 Speaker 1: To think about there, And if you're and you did hear him correctly when he said that he decided to raise a grizzly bear when he was twenty five years old. This action is one of the many things that landed him on shows like Oprah. Like I mentioned earlier, this guy has lived an interesting life to say the least. But here's the main thing that I think we should focus on from that last piece, and just say, y'all can't say I didn't give you a fair warning. I'm going to ask some hard and thought provoking questions. Here you're ready, Here we go. Do we need grizzly bears? I mean, really think about it. Do we need grizzly bears? And allow me to challenge us further in saying, when you think about your answer, don't think about it in terms of addressing an audience of folks that already understand hunting for the life of an outdoorsman, think about having to answer that to a much broader audience because in disclaimer this part, here's my opinion, but I feel like we almost have to think that way, especially when you're discussing an animal that finds its way into mainstream conversations as much as grizzlies do. Why do we need grizzlies? Why should grizzly bears be listed or delisted on an endangered species list? Should grizzly bears be hunted or should they not be hunted? There are folks out there that never want to see grizzlies removed from the endangered species list. There's folks out there that think grizzlies should be removed and should be managed like a game animal with the regular hunting season. There's folks that think we should be able to shoot any bear that we see on site, regardless of the situation. And there's folks that think grizzlies are warm and fuzzy and would never harm you, so we should never harm them. Like I said, there's a wide spectrum of opinions out there. So do you have an answer? Think about it. Let's focus in on the facts, because in my experience, when honing in on topics of high opinion, relying on facts is most important. 00:20:56 Speaker 4: The way our programs are designed is to try to dispel a lot of the miss about grizzly bears and concentrate on the facts. About grizzly bears. What we know through science, biology, experience, our eyes, what we see, what we do, how we deal with them, where we see them, and how they interact on the landscape, whether it's on public land, private land, in the wilderness or you know, mixed up amongst you know, houses and stuff like Big scy or even the outskirts of Bozeman. Right, So there's a lot of angles there. But I think most people, even if there is some misunderstanding of grizzly bears, if they're interested, they'll go out and they'll try to learn that. And I think this the best folks can do. Things are changing, they're adapting to their landscape, just like we're adapting to ours, and so just getting that information out to folks, and we're an open book. I mean, you know, folks call us and ask us all sorts of questions, not just from a reactionary standpoint and due to conflicts, but also proactive things that we can do moving forward. And so you know, they're a wild animal. At the end of the day, they're dangerous and unpredictable. There's no denying that. And a grizzly bear and a black bear can rear change anything anytime if it chose to do so. Fortunately, most of the time we don't see that. But there are encounters that happen. There are bad events that happen, and those things are what I think make the news, that's what you hear about all the time. And so our job is to sort those instances out, but also keep on analyzing why did this happen. On average, we handle around one hundred to one hundred and fifty conflicts a year. That's nowhere even close to probably what's actually happening. Right, it's only if you call us and talk to us that we can catalog these conflicts and try to figure them out and work on them. So again, Kyle and MAI's job essentially is conflict specialists when it comes to grizzly bears and black bears, mainly grizzly bears, and so in Montana, in the Yellowstone ecosystem, we have a high density of grizzly bears that's recovered. It's a great growing population. We've got a lot of folks that are here. That population is increasing, and so the interaction between people and bears is happening, and it'll probably happen a little more often than it did twenty or thirty years ago. You know, my predecessor, Kevin Frye, was a grizzly bear specialist here for thirty years, and I worked with him for fifteen of those years. And even in the fifteen years I worked with him, I saw a significant change in southwest Montana as far as not only the number of people that live here and build here and move here, but the number of bears that are here and their density in one particular spot, and the expansion and increased distribution of those bears. Right, it's a natural thing. And so our jobs are not only reactively responding to conflicts between people and bears, but also proactively getting out ahead of that and trying to prevent conflicts from happening in the first place. And and Danielle's role in that is massive because back in the day, you know, me and Kevin, I kind of did everything, and when before I worked for him, he did it all by himself for the most part, And as that bear popular grew and the human population grew, he didn't have time or we didn't have time to go run over and do all these things we really wanted to do. As far as preventative measures for bears because we're reacting to conflicts. And so fast forward to now, and we've got this great education program that's huge. We've got me and Kyle being able to work with our warden staff and our biologists staff to handle both black bears and grizzly bear conflicts and turn it into kind of one large program that can adapt not only locally, but regionally on the fly and then in between regions. You know, Southwest Montana is an interesting spot for grizzly bears because we back up against Yellowstone National Park Idaho, Wyoming. We all work together because bears don't know borders or boundaries, and so we all know each other. 00:24:49 Speaker 3: We talk all the time. 00:24:50 Speaker 4: We've worked with each other over the years, and so it's a very interactive group of people that are dealing with and handling conflicts and trying to proactively prove vent them long term with a growing population of bears and people. 00:25:05 Speaker 1: Allow me to further contextualize some of what Jeremiah just shared with us. In nineteen seventy five, the year that grizzly bears were listed as endangered, the state of Montana had a recorded human population of seven hundred and forty eight thousand, two hundred and eight. Idaho had eight hundred and thirty one thousand, nine hundred and eighty two, Wyoming three hundred and eighty one thousand, six hundred and ninety five. Fast forward to twenty twenty four, the recorded population of Montana is now over one point one million, Idaho right at two million, and Wyoming right over half a million. That's a significant population increase of humans, which in turn means more humans on the landscape, more housing, more humans spreading into areas where they previously were not. Pair that with the recovering and growing bear population, and you were met with the unavoidable reality that humans and bears are simply going to cross paths more often. 00:26:05 Speaker 6: No, there's definitely a lot of people that have figured out, like, if we're going to be here, they're here, we're going to have to tolerate each other. And a lot of folks are great, you know, they understand that the bears just trying to make a living, same as them, and if you don't work side by side and kind of have that tolerance for one another, it's not going to work in the long run. 00:26:24 Speaker 5: Oh, I was just going to say, there was a human dimension study, a social science study on people's attitudes about grizzly bearries in Montana. I don't know four years ago or so, and what the common thread was is like most people, it was like over ninety six percent I think valued grizzly bears as a part of Montana's natural heritage. Where you started to see differences is like what people's tolerance were for how where they lived and how close they lived to their homes. So some folks have a really high tolerance. They're fine with grizzly bears fairly close, but pretty much nobody wants them in their backyard. You know, whether you love grizzly bears are you're pretty skeptical and you're not. You don't want them anywhere near you. Nobody's really interested in having them really really close to their home. But overall, Montanas appreciate that that grizzly bears live here. 00:27:12 Speaker 1: I'll be completely honest with y'all. In the studies and research I've done so far for this podcast, I have yet to find an animal or even a topic that brings about more nuance than a grizzly bear. Danielle said it best by referencing the study that showed over ninety six percent of people in Montana valuing grizzlies as part of the Montana heritage. But where you start to see variances is when you get into people's tolerances for them. So in Layman's terms, people are thinking, so, where are these bears exactly? And how close are they to my house? So to speak? And as I stated earlier, the human population in these grizzly areas only seems to be going up. So at some point it's inevitable that we as humans are going to have to make some decisions. 00:27:57 Speaker 2: And it's a funny time, especially over in this neck the woods here in Yellowstone Country in Montana, Idaho Wyoming, where we're on the cusp of what are we going to do next with grizzly bears? Right, And a lot of people would expect that I would be like anti hunting grizzly bears, but I'm not. 00:28:11 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a hunter. 00:28:12 Speaker 2: I understand the importance of managing animals, and no matter what they are on a landscape, we need to it's the only way that they're going to be around for a long term. But I also hear from a lot of hunters that the reason why they shouldn't we should be hunting grizzly bears is because I see them all the time when I'm out hunting. They're everywhere. They're losing their fear of people. Is that a reason to hunt them? We did that with all the other animals. Is that the reason to hunt them, or or should we hunt them because their population is getting too high and for this ecosystem and a bunch of biologists has actually come up with the data to say that's the case. Maybe that's that's the reason we should hunt them, not because we're afraid of them. 00:28:52 Speaker 3: And it's okay if you can be afraid. 00:28:54 Speaker 2: Of something to understand, then I think that that's the part we have to understand them. And the thing is, man, I'll tell you it's a lot of people aren listen to this and think that this guy's crazy why we're listening to him. But I'm here to tell you you know, I'm not against hunting grizzly bears, not at all. Again, And I think that's really important, and I think it's really important for us to understand animals that were out there in the woods with no matter what they are right. And I think in that understanding we can make better management decisions. Yeah, and I think that's just the bottom line, man. We can't manage animals based on fear. We have to base our animal management practices on facts. 00:29:29 Speaker 1: Interesting take and insight from a man like Casey Anderson. I appreciate both the thoroughness of his answer as well as his willingness to share with us outright his thoughts on such a controversial topic. And I want to hear more from him on this, but first I want to be sure to let the biologists from MFWP way in on this subject as well. 00:29:49 Speaker 4: At the end of the day, for the most part, grizzly bears required large chunks of dirt without people in it. 00:29:56 Speaker 3: Right. 00:29:56 Speaker 4: So the original idea when they listed grizzly bears you hear about all these recovery zones is that they sought these areas like Yellowstone National Park and a surrounding area they called a recovery zone, that we would recover bears in these areas because there's large, contentious pieces of public land that don't have people in it. Right. People visit, people move through, but they actually have fairly untapped, untouched forest or wilderness or different type of land use classifications you want to have. And I don't think what anybody thought backed in was that those bears would start to expand so far out like they assumed. 00:30:32 Speaker 3: I think that the. 00:30:33 Speaker 4: Idea of the recovery when it met the original recovery criteria, that the bear would be delisted and they'd be managed just like every other game species in Montana. And that time frame has been pushed along over time. And so that's a lot of arguments you hear in the news and everything else about grizzly bears is delist them, don't delist them. All that well, we stay underneath of that because we our role in grizzly bear management doesn't matter whether they're on or off the list. 00:31:02 Speaker 1: Right, your job doesn't change. 00:31:03 Speaker 3: We're still dealing with conflicts no matter what. 00:31:06 Speaker 4: Now. As an agency and as bear specialist, I truly believe, Yeah, I think grizzly bear should be delisted. Absolutely. The numbers are there, they're recovered, they've done a great job. We've got good secure habitat, we've got great rules and regulations, regulatory mechanisms they are put in place, and yes, those things could be changed here and there, for sure, there's no arguing that. But to keep something on a list for that long, I mean, it's a goofy fact. And these guys probably get sick of me saying it, But I was born in nineteen seventy five. These things have been on the list as long as I've been alive. Fifty years is a long time to keep something on a list, you know. I mean the idea that in the Endangered Species Act is to recover and move on to something else, and I think that's what a lot of people get frustrated with. I'm sure, I think they really do. And you know, these areas where like you and Kyle were talking about, Danielle, it's like you can go into an area and have a mix of people in Montana and their opinions and their ideas on grizzly bears. 00:32:04 Speaker 2: And that's great because I. 00:32:05 Speaker 4: Think that's the way it should be, because everybody's got their own experience with them, They've got their own effect that the bears have on them. You know, if you're a cattle rancher and you've got a bear coming down and eating you know, four or five calves every other day, that's not good. I wouldn't be happy. 00:32:21 Speaker 3: About that either, you know. 00:32:22 Speaker 4: And so our jobs and wildlife services in those particular instances is to get in there and try to remedy that situation because there's a lot of bears out there that aren't causing conflict. Sure, because we manage the population, we don't manage the individual and that makes a big difference because that's how wildlife management should be. Singling out individual animals I think can cause a lot of problems when it comes to the public's view of how wildlife is managed. 00:32:48 Speaker 1: Do you think there's any like possibility wise if they've becoming delisted? I know that's an opinion question. 00:32:53 Speaker 3: No, it's a podcast, but my fingers are crossed now. 00:32:56 Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's politics and litigation, and so again we that's above our level. We kind of stay out of that. Sure, as far as recovery criteria goes for the original recovery zones in Montana, they have they have accomplished that. 00:33:12 Speaker 6: In fact, Yellowstone Day. 00:33:14 Speaker 4: For Yellowstone Cabinet Yack, the Yellowstone ecosystem has literally been recovered since technically, as far as recovery criteria goes ninety nine to two thousand and two. 00:33:23 Speaker 3: Right in there, checked all the box, checked all the. 00:33:25 Speaker 4: Boxes, n CD. 00:33:27 Speaker 3: I don't think as. 00:33:28 Speaker 4: Far off, but yeah, yeah, and the Cria yaks has not quite gotten there yet. But these two ecosystems make up Idaho, Montana and Wyoming and most of Montana. The cabinet yak is a pretty small component up there, but just as important. But when you've got a massive recovery population sitting next door, you know you're gonna have distribution that's going in and out. 00:33:51 Speaker 1: Sure. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, my role here is not to tell you how to think. I'm here to present you with facts and what I learn doing this research in these interviews, and the facts are that biologists and grizzly bear specialists believe that there's enough data and evidence to support removing bears from the endangered species list. I believe this to be a very important factor. I also think it's important to highlight Jeremiah's comment about the difference between managing populations rather than managing individual animals. Virtually all of the successes that North America has had in terms of wildlife management has come from an angle of population management, not individual animal management. This is an important factor that cannot be ignored, regardless of what species we're talking about. 00:34:41 Speaker 2: You use the word resource, right, Yeah, that all means something different to other people. You know, to other people like Okay, now you're looking at them like a commodity and they're just an animal on the landscape, and you're like no, no, egawn, you know, that's a broad word there. In some level, there's a value there and it's like a commodity. But sometimes you just got to look at it some way and get mad about this the idea that you've used that word, and it's one of those things that's kind of ridiculous to me because I think ultimately, if that resource is there, if the bears come back in Montana and we have the ability to hunt them, then they're healthy. 00:35:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a good indicator. 00:35:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that resource no matter what the value of that resource is, where that means you're gonna go with your son and opening day and kill one, or if that means you're gonna go walk out there while you're sniffing wildflowers and see one, it's a value. It's a value that we all collectively want on the landscape. And if we can figure out away from to make that happen through management, that's what conservation is all about, right, and everybody can be happy. 00:35:41 Speaker 1: Here's some more facts for you autumb Ale over in regards to wildlife in North America, animals that are hunted sustainably with regulated and managed hunting seasons are some of the healthiest wildlife populations throughout the entire country. And there's a lot of reasons for that, some of which being habitat protection, restoration, and also the cultural value that we as humans assigned to them. That's a fact. I want to ask Jeremiah Smith about his opinion on the future of grizzly bears and what a potential hunting season could look like if grizzlies were ever delisted. 00:36:15 Speaker 4: In regards to grizzly bears, I hope we're a delisted population. I hope we have the state management, which we already do, to be honest with you, management of grizzly bears since the day they've been listed. The states are doing the day to day management and are federal partners. You know Yellowstone, Grand Teeton, they're managing bears in there as well. The Fish and Wildlife services role is really where we check in because it is a delist or a listed population. In order for us to do a management action, so to speak, we need to get permission to do that. And they've always been pretty dang good about working with us on that because we're on the ground dealing with it. But moving forward that there's still a I think a viable population of grizzlies on the landscape that low conflicts with people. You know, everybody's kind of getting along. I think what we've accomplished inside the recovery zones with successful recoveries, but I think that's something to hang a hat on. I think they've done a great job. Those bears are going to continue to reproduce and be available out there for the folks that want to go and check them out, and you know, maintain a little bit of a buffer between people and bears. And that means that conflict number drops and everybody's okay with that. 00:37:28 Speaker 1: What about you know, the idea of grizzlies being delisted? What about that changes? Like why you're like, man, that would be great, fingers crossed that happens. What changes like, what can y'all do with a delisted grizzly that y'all can't do now. 00:37:43 Speaker 5: I want to hear from you guys too, But it won't change, like, we will continue to do our jobs, but it's important that we uphold our end of the deal with how the Endangered Species Act works. So I think that's why it's important, and I think it's important for all the other species that are on the list for that to continue to function properly. 00:38:04 Speaker 3: Gotcha. 00:38:04 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think it'd go a long way to help build that tolerance back too. Some folks are just you know, that have been dealing with a recovered population for twenty years. Yeah, they're losing faith in the system. Jeremiah, real quick, can you kind of speak to maybe what a possible hunting season across the three states would look like, because I know a ton of folks think that it's just going to be open season potentially like black bears, and within a year or two could hunt them back down to you know, two hundred bears right. Well, I mean I can't speak to you exactly how that'll look. So a good example is the Montana is one of the few states was asked to come up with hunting regulations for grizzly bears. Okay, Okay, So we put together a hunting regulation for grizzly bears, which really isn't much different than our black bear hunting rags other than obviously we don't have the numbers, and the population is shared between Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming plus two National parks and the Wind River Indian Reservation, right, and so the Montana portion for hunting was literally designed inside the recovery zone and what they call the demographic monitoring area. So imagine there's Yellowstone, there's a cocentric circle outside of that, and then there's another one outside of that. Inside of that is where we count grizzly bears. Inside of that is where mortalities count, births count, all of the count. So everything you hear about the population of grizzly bears and the Yellowstone ecosystem is inside of that ring. 00:39:23 Speaker 3: Gotcha. 00:39:24 Speaker 4: It's not the rest of Montana, the rest of Wyoming, or the rest of Idaho. It's literally there. So a thousand bears may not seem like a lot of bears. That's just inside of that ring. And that's an estimated population, that's not we know exactly how many are in there it's typically more than what we think. And so our hunting program was basically designed as a draw tag, like a limited and we have each one of these units, we have mortality limits that we have to follow inside of that ring, and so based on the population estimate, based on the estimate, and so you know, let's say the population estimate was eight hundred on twenty twenty four, and from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five, we have a mortality limit set that X number of bears can die before it triggers something. So if that mortality limit isn't met, there's a number in between that mortality limit and where we got to. Those are the numbers of bears that would actually potentially have and hunters would have a chance to potentially hunt, and that number would be split up between Wyoming, Idaho and southwest Montana. So the reality is is that if that hunt took place, you're talking one bear, maybe two or three in Montana southwest inside the recovery zone in the DMA. Now outside of that might be a different story. That's where our commissions come into play and start talking about or do we have areas that we're starting to see a higher density grizzly bears that maybe isn't going to work in an agricultural or a ranch setting or a subdivision setting, things like that, right. I mean, there's a lot of aspects to gay Man. So is the hunting season itself, at least for the Montana portion that we can speak to, would have been a very it's a very limited hunt starting out, and it's a quota system most likely in the early stages. But you know, Montana's arm rule essentially says we were not going to hunt grizzlies after the delisting, and that might change our current one says we won't hunt for five years until, which is kind of a monitoring period to kind of see how things go right. 00:41:27 Speaker 1: So you wouldn't delist it, get a hunting season go all right, general grizz tag everyone. 00:41:32 Speaker 4: That's one of those common misunderstandings, Right. So even if we decided to do that, even if the you know, the state of Montana said we're gonna hunt grizzlies back because it was a listed population, there's triggers set in place. So if Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho decided we're gonna go out and we're gonna shoot every grizzly bear and bring it back down. When that number gets down to a specific spot, let's say it's eight hundred or five hundred, the triggers kick in and you're right back on the list. So there's no reason why anyone state would want to hunt grizzly bears back to the extinction. It just doesn't make any sense. There's checks and valid and there's lots of people that would argue that, and that's that's their opinion, and it's perfectly fine with them if they want to argue that way. 00:42:14 Speaker 3: I totally understand that. 00:42:15 Speaker 4: But again a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation out there about what a hunt actually looks like in a state of Montana, or Wyoming or Idaho for that matter. But I can only speak to Montana's portion of the Yellowstone ecosystem. 00:42:28 Speaker 1: This is why I find so much value in hearing from folks like Jeremiah Kyle and Danielle. These folks are out there every day conducting scientific actions, research and observations and can give us thorough answers about what an actual grizzly hunting season could look like. If that day ever comes, I want to give Casey a chance to weigh on the future of grizzlies as well. 00:42:50 Speaker 2: Try to find the people who are asking questions and are always trying to learn. They kind of ride the fence in the middle there, and that's where I said to you, man, and that's the one thing sitting here. I might have thirty plus years of experience with grizzly bears, but I'm learning every day. And as I go out there and learn, I just like to try to answer those questions the best I can, and I'm wrong sometimes, and that's that's just the truth of it. That's kind of the wonderfulness about being around unpredictable animals in the in the wild, where it's just kind of an unpredictable place and it's always changing in the day and age. I think the future of grizzly bears in North America is going to be a positive thing. I think some of those old fearful mindsets are kind of going away a little bit. I think new the newer generations are. They're they're believing in science, they're leaning into those things, and I see what's going to probably happen and what I kind of hope is going to happen. You know, ultimately, if the Endangered Species Act was successful and the pairs recover and they get to a point where they are an animal that can be hunted, then they could become the value of them changes a little bit. I think at some levels, what we want is that population to get so big. 00:43:54 Speaker 7: That that we can do that that it's a healthy population, that the resources, financial resources are going to continue to help the bear expand into places that they can live, and that the population the bears are going to just get healthier and healthier. 00:44:08 Speaker 2: That would be the perfect world where everybody wins. Right, you go out there and you still have grizzly bears on the landscape. That's the goal. And I think they were going that diriction. You know, but you knows everything. The pendulum swings so hard back and forth. 00:44:21 Speaker 3: It's like a wrecking ball, man. 00:44:22 Speaker 2: You know, you gain here and you lose here, and you gain here and you lose here. But I think that ultimately it seems like it's going that way, and I hope that's where it goes. 00:44:38 Speaker 1: So we have the desired outcomes from both Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks as well as Casey Anderson. I wouldn't say they're identical but they do share some strong similarities lining up and delisting a regulated hunting season and wanting a bright future for grizzlies by way of a healthy population and minimal conflict with humans. So what do y'all want for an out? What do you think or hope the future of grizzly bears in the United States will be? Have you come up with an answer for if we need grizzly bears here? And why think about it? I hope all of you enjoyed this episode of Backwoods University as well as bear Grease in This Country Life. If you liked this episode, share it with someone you know that has strong opinions on grizzly bears, and be sure to stick around because if this podcast was a bear, we haven't even come out of the den yet. There's a whole lot more on the way.