00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the modern white tail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm your guest host Tony Peterson, and today I'm speaking with wildlife researcher and white tail expert Dr Carl Miller. All Right, folks, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, which is brought to you by First Light. You might notice that this is not the voice of the well mustachioed Mark Kenyon. Mark actually sent me an email last week saying that he was going to work on his extreme ironing skills and was really going to test his limits with his latest challenge. I don't I don't know anymore, you guys. I don't have the energy to care. If you're wondering if Marcus as strange as he sounds, trust me, it's orders of magnitude worse when you get to know him. Anyway. I hope he cheats death with his latest hobby of his And moving on today, I'm speaking with Dr Carl Miller. There is no one out there who has contributed more to the body of white tail research than this guy. He's an absolute wealth of knowledge who has given back an awful lot to the white tail community. And on this show we dive pretty deep into how dear here and how good they are actually at hearing, which is going to surprise you, and then we get into how well dear can actually smell and why that's so tough to study. This episode is pretty heavy into science, but it will make you a better deer hunter. I promise. I think you're really gonna like it. Carl Miller, it is an honor to get to talk to you made me nervous by saying that honor. I've read your stuff for a long long time, and I gotta ask you. Are you the most published white tail researcher on the planet. We're telling you. First of all, you said you regret it for a long time. That makes me sound really old, but which I met the last couple of years. Actually I am, and I think right now I have public more in the scientific literature than anybody else has on white tails. After taking a look at the list of of stuff that you have out there, I would believe that because I've gotter viewed quite a few dear biologists and wildlife researchers and you have a resume. Man, I'm so I'm so glad to have you on. There's a couple of things that I really want to talk to you about. But first, where where did the white tail obsession come from? You know, one of the things I wanted to comment on what you just said earlier about, you know, having such a a long list of publication and stuff in my in my career and stuff. And other reason for that is I've just absolutely been blessed by the people I've had the opportunity to work with, you know, a lot of good colleagues, with a lot of good mentors, and particularly a lot of great graduate students, and those of the workhorses that got a lot of this stuff done. You know, I came up, come up with some ideas and just turn a loose off stuff and we put together a really good team at Georgia, and that that that team is continuing on with the people who replaced me since I retired. So, but my obsession. I grew up in northern Pennsylvania in the Big Woods with the traditional hunting deer hunting camp up there, lived and breathed whitetailed deer from probably the time I came out of the womb. I guess a long tradition. It may have actually come back. Um my birthdays in August, so I kind of backdated nine months. And I think I was a product of Hello, honey, I'm home from deer camp. You know, Uh, you're the first I've interviewed a lot of people. Nobody's ever traced back their conception date that quite that way. Well, I shouldn't say that, nobody's ever openly admitted it. So I guess my dad got his buck that year. Yeah, oh man, that's awesome. So it was. It was a it was a family thing. It was the social thing. You know. You you just grew up with it, and you you just parlay it into a really really long career. Huh yeah, you know. And I, you know, starting out in college, I wanted to go into wildlife, but you know, listen to guidence concerts and parents and stuff. You know, they said, well, you're not going to get a job in wildlife, so you gotta go into something else. So I I started off in in another field, and ultimately, by the time I was working on my master's degree, I thought, you know what, there's somebody getting jobs in wildlife and wildlife management. Dear, if you're good you'll get the jobs. So that's where I made my switch, and I haven't looked back since. I mean, it's been it's been an incredible opportunity, you know, over forty years to work with the animal you love to work with. So when you were when you were kind of kicking around the idea of going into this field, you had people in your life who said, that's there's there's no money, there's there's no jobs there. You gotta look somewhere else, right, Yeah, But you know, like I said, you know somebody has those jobs, and you know you might be a little more competition out there, but you know, if you're good, you're gonna find one. Yeah. I had the same thing happened to me. I always wanted to be an outdoor writer, and when I went to college, a lot of people were like, listen, man, you gotta you gotta get get a real job. You know, there's like ten guys in the world making a living doing that. And you know, lucky for me, I was just young and dumb enough and didn't have enough holding me down to not give it a shot. And it, you know, changed the ark of my life. Just just pursuing that, uh, right, and you've done well with it. It's been it's been fun. I've been lucky. I feel lucky. Man. Uh, I want to talk to you. You've studied so much different stuff in the white tailed world. But there's two things I got to talk to you about. And it's it's how well a deer can hear, or I should probably rephrase that, how how dear here compared to us, and how how we kind of should be leaving behind what we know about hearing because of how we hear and how we should be thinking about how they have evolved here. And I want to do the same thing with with their noses. Uh. So let's let's start with deer hearing, because I know you've you've bumped into this a lot where we just as humans, we bring into this this biases of like, Okay, we know what hearing is, like, we know how we hear, and so we look at deer and go, well, they must be way better at it because we give him a lot of credit. But that's not necessarily the case of your research. Yeah, and you know that this is the easy one, dear hearing, because to tell you the truth, dear hearing is really not that much different than ours, which which really surprises a lot of people. There's been two different studies that have done that that have been done that looked at that. We did one at the University of Georgia had a graduate student named Gino D'Angelo who's now on the faculty there, and he did one where we looked at auditory brain samoris wants, which actually measures the signal in the deer's brain in response to different sounds, you know, different frequencies and different intensities of sound. And that study was done basically physiologically. And then there was a study done out of the University of Toledo by a father's son parents named Heffner, and they actually did what it's called a behavioral behavioral that's hard word to say, an audiogram where they actually trained the deer to respond if they heard a sound. And interestingly, both studies found essentially the same thing. The deer hearing range is very similar to ours. Their best hearing is probably a little bit higher frequencies than ours. We probably hear in the you know, two to four killing hers range. They hear in the four to kill her range at their peak. But if you relay overlay the two curves they are almost identical, which you know, so they may hear a little higher frequency better. We may hear low frequently better, but it's not that much different. But the surprising thing that people don't realize is that their ability to hear is not that much better than ours, essentially about the same. So how do you test that? So when you say, when you guys did the study and you're looking at the brain scan, I'm assuming it's that's a that's a great way to not have any false positives or any kind of ambiguous data, right, Like the brain lights up. You know they heard it. And then they do this study down in Ohio and you know there it's a conditioned response thing, probably a food thing or something. I'm guessing. Uh So how do you how do you figure out like because I think when you if you ask the average hunter, they would say, well, of course a deer can hear something farther away than us, and of course they can pinpoint it better like it would be for most people would be a given. But how do you test? How do you test to figure that out? To go? You know, their hearing is not that much better than ours. Okay, now you're going into a place that I want to get. There are some caveats for this, okay, And that's related to the external ears that a deer has. You know, this is what the deer is hearing capability is when the sound is played into the deer's ear and um and both of it has done with different frequencies and you use different intensities, you know, different volumes of the sound to get their response. So but the difference is the deer have these large external ears called you know, they're called pena, which have multiple functions um, one of which is to accentuate sound is entering into the ear. So it's like when you put your hand to your ear when you're trying to hear something, it actually funnels more of that sound into your ear. So when a deer has this ears cut towards an object that's producing that sound, it actually accentuates that sound. But on the flip side, when they're turned to wait way from something, it decreases the sounds. So when the deer's ears are pointed forward, it's not hearing is well behind, or when it's ears are backwards is not hearing it well forward. So when a deer's ears are cup towards you, that's when it's going to have the best ability to pick up that sound. That also helps a lot with the ability to u localize the source of the sound, define the directionality because that extends the distance between the two years out further, and the distance between the ears is what helps you to identify where the sound came from. M So one other thing to think about this is though, and I know a lot of hunter will say, oh, you know what, I've been sitting on deer stand and I've been watching deer right under my stand, and all of a sudden it you're picked up his head and looked in a different direction, like it hurts something. I never heard something. So why is that? Well, you know the way I kind of uh explain that is deer spend their entire life twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three and sixty five days in the in the woods. They know what they're supposed to hear and what they're not supposed to hear. You know what you're supposed to hear in your house or not supposed to hear in your house. If you drop the nickel versus a dime on the kitchen floor, you know the difference, right, or if you're driving your truck and it starts to make a weird sound, you know, you say, that's not normal. You know, most of my wife can't do that, but most people can can do that. So, uh so they know what they're supposed to hear. How many times have you been on a deer stand and had a deer in front of you and you heard a rustle behind the behind you and you turn around and it's a squirrel And the deer never picked its head up. The deer knew what it was supposed to hear, and knew what was natural and what was unnatural. And that's what they're picking up on, is the unnatural sound out in the woods. That thing what this reminds me of. I think it was Steve Rinella that was talking about this when he spent some time down in the Amazon with with natives who you know, these indigenous indigenous people, their life is condensed down to like twenty square miles of jungle, and so they are just tuned into that. That's you know, that's it's an area that we you know, like living in the modern world where we live, we don't think of things that way, right, Like you think of the city, you know, and you go to the grocery store or what ever. Maybe you go to your farm, but their entire existence is boiled down to that whatever twenty square miles it is. So they know the trees, they know the plants, they know the animals, they know, you know, there's new tracks coming in here or whatever. And I always thinking about that with deer, when you look at if you use like a square mile is just like a generic home range, and then you think about that's their entire existence. And and and we look at time a little bit differently, right, we have long lives compared to them, So they spend one year there, and we think that's you know, like a young whatever, a little forky or something, a year and a half old out there, but he spent his entire existence and maybe you know, maybe he's dispersed or something, but you've got just a little piece of ground that everything that's there is what they encounter every day, and it's it's a different thing. So they're so in tune to that environment compared to how we probably perceive it. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. You can almost see it in your kids. And when I was teaching at the university. You could tell kids who grew up with a you know, spending a lot of time out of the wood versus once and one once, we didn't to spend most of their time on a game boy or something. You know, because the kids have spent a lot of times in the woods could see things, They picked up on things. They just knew what was supposed to be there, and what if something unusual they picked up on it, where the other kids didn't, they didn't have the appreciation for it. Yeah, well, I I ran into that. I take a lot of kids turkey hunting, and you know, I have twin ten year old daughters. One of them is phenomenal at details and paying attention in the woods, and one of them is oblivious. And I mean that's partially they're wiring, but I and I'm used to them. But I took one of my nephews out, who's I think he's eleven or twelve, his first turkey hunt. He's never done it. He had deer hunted with his dad, a little bit rifle hunted, and I'm telling you, every sound we heard in the woods, he was like, what's that, what's that? What's that? They He had no you know, it's stuff that we hear, you know, you don't even acknowledge, like blue jays flying overhead, or affiliated woodpecker or whatever flying by. It's just like so part of the landscape. To him, he was just holy cow, I don't know what any And it was like kind of an eye opener for me. Yeah, And we only spend a few hours a week out in the woods compared with deer spending hours a day out there. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a different thing. So when you talk about you know, their ears and and and pinpointing stuff. When you when you say that, what it reminds me of is when you deer hunt a lot, you sort of intuitively learn and you probably learned just from your mistakes that if if a deer is looking in your direction, you don't call, if you know, like when you're bow hunting, because they're gonna be on you in a second. But you wait till they turn their head and there those ears are are, you know, turned the other way. Then you call, and it just feels like that's the right move, right or even if they're looking your in your direction and the ears or turned back, which they have the ability here, you know, listening behind them. That's another thing to think about what you're deer hunt is watching the deer is the ear because you know, if you're watching the deer's ear, you can tell what that deer's thinking about it as well. And you know if they all of a sudden they're they're cupping their ears behind them, they're hearing something that they want more information on. It might be another deer, might be something they're they're trying to identify what that is. So it's time for you to pay attention to what's going on behind the deer. Yeah, well, that's that's what I was curious about with you, is how much you know, like how many ideas for your research do you get just from sitting in the woods and hunting deer, Because like when you when you talk about like that, that right there, one of the things I always think is so cool. If you watch a deer, you know that's that's chomping on some acorns or maybe eating a corn cob in the field or something, and they think they hear something, you watch them stop chewing, and it's the same thing people do you know, like if somebody speaks to you and you've got a mouthful of cheerios or whatever, you stop chewing for a second so you can hear and you see those little behaviors like how often are you just have you been in your life just sitting on the woods and saw like a little thing like that and went, you know what? And then and it sparks some kind of idea. Yeah, but I think that happens, you know, quite often. Um, I don't know how if I can give you a specific instance on, but you know, just just watching dear behavior, I'm always asking the question why is that dear doing what that dear is doing instead of just accepting the fact that it is doing that, And I think that makes the difference and try to answer and trying to figure out you know a lot of the questions we asked. Yeah, I mean I tell people, you know, we get hit with questions constantly on like you know, what what scent should I buy? What call should I buy? Like it's always like how what what can you tell me to get me closer to dead bucks? And I'm always like pay attention to deer, figure out where they like to walk, figure out why they like to walk there, and then go shoot them. They don't want to hear it, they don't want to hear. They want to buy a crush instead of going out there and actually learning the animal. And that's what I You know, I'm a minimalist when it comes to hunting. I generally have either my bowing an arrow or a gun in a couple of shells, and that's about all I carry to the woods with me. And you know, I use my mouth to make any calls that I want to make. But I don't like to carry a lot of gear because it kind of takes away from the hunt to me. Yeah, I'm a I'm a minimalist too. I like I like simple. I like I like just trying to figure out what makes them tick and try to capitalize on that. Um let's let's back up one second. There's something I want to ask you about. So when you when you mentioned, you know, the frequency in which we hear versus the frequency in which we think, dear here, it's a little bit different. Yeah, why, I mean, where's the evolutionary divergence there? You you know what that might be. It might be the you know, the deer that we tested were you know, five six four or five six years old or something. You know, most times humans when they're being tested, they're you know, twenty years old, and you know, we lose our some of our ability to hear higher frequencies. And it might be just something that over time that the subjects themselves have lost their ability to hear high frequencies. I can't hear high pitches like I used to do any or so that might be part of it, whether or not there's an evolutionary thing significance to it. Um heck, I don't know. You know, some of the some of the calls that they dare make that like the call an alarm, that that's a higher pitch, higher frequency sound, it might be a little bit easier for them to hear that sound, you know, to fall because but you know, I don't think it's a it's not such a major difference between the deer and the human that there's really that much to really, I don't know, there's not that much. You're really trying to put together an evolutionary picture for it. It might not mean anything. Yeah, it's not that different. Yeah, I mean, or it might. When I when I hear stuff like that, I always wonder, you know, you mentioned like a you know, a deer snorting and alarm, or you know, maybe it's tied to coyote howells or some some predator the pitch of some predators call or something at some point, or it just could be just the way things shook out. You know. Well that's a that's that's a good way to say it. I wish I would have said it that way. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's interesting, it is, yeah, yeah, Um, it's interesting. Has anybody so when you when you talk about how a white tail you know, we we we know how they use their ears. You know, we know what they're doing with them. Has anybody ever studied meal deer in the same capacity? Uh, not that I know of, But it would make sense obviously with those larger ears, they have a good you know, and it's a greater enhanced ability to capture some of that sound and maybe the localize that sound as well. And do you think that would come from just maybe being in a more open, bigger, bigger terrain or something. Yeah, you know, distances distances are much greater in those situations, and sounds carries further. Uh you know, you know, a closed forest situation, white till lives up close and personal whereas a meal near lives, you know, his his experiences as much broader of what he's visualizing for hearing. Yeah, yeah, it's just a different thing. Um, anything besides the obvious you know, metal on metal sounds. Maybe it's like, you know, a two tight tree strap on the wrong tree bar can really make a nasty sound. Anything anything that Like you personally when you're you're hunting. Because of your research on dear hearing, have you ever are you just like I can't make that noise all right? Just when you make it, you're like, oh, that's terrible. You know. One of the sounds that kind of falls right into the peak of the deers hearing capability is kind of the Russell sound you make when you're your clothing moves you move against a tree that you know that that brush um and some types of fabrics make an awful lot of noise. Uh. And that's one of the things I worked with was Sick on a camera and is developing some of this, you know, helping them develop some of their camera based on deers hearing capabilities, and they're trying to minimize the sounds of those camels made. And you know, I think that's critically important. You know. You just don't hear nylon naturally out in the woods, you know, or bell crow or bell crow, you know, any of any of those types of things. Any unnatural sound is going to be picked up pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah, it's just it's interesting when you see. It's interesting when you could like walk down the aisle of a Cabelas or whatever and look at the different camo and look at a you know, all the different vinyl harnesses and the different class and vel crow and all the stuff. And then over the years you go out and hunt and you just realize, like, if I'm wearing this kind of jacket, I can't turn with my back to a tree when the deer close. Well, if I stand up, I gotta stand up with my back away. Or you have some stuff that you can kind of ride that right up that bark and it's not gonna make any noise. And it's little stuff like that. I think when you get a lot of bow hunting experience, you just start to intuitively go, you know, I'm in a green like that, and I'm never gonna wear this again kind of stuff, right and not you know that that fabric choice and the noise of that fabric makes might be more important than the actual camel that you're using. You know, picked your camel up with your ears, not your eyes. Um, I want to I want to ask you one more thing about deer hearing before we move on. So when when I asked you about the frequency in which they hear and in which we hear, and we kind of decided it might not mean anything at all. Um, you mentioned you know as you get older. You know, we're like very aware that you know, our hearing can be can go downhill, right, Like we're very aware that our eyesight at a certain age, like you're gonna need your cheater glasses. Like we don't think about animals in terms like that. They I don't. I don't ever think about an old buck, you know, having any diminished sense of hearing or any diminished sense of vision. Do you think that happens? I mean, you know, none of the studies have looked in an age relationship to that, or have found an age related and shift to that. We didn't notice any different, any difference in any of our study animals as related to age. You know, it's it's possible, but you know, think about this you're dealing with a six year span between a fawn and a mature book versus a seventy year span between you know, a young child and a rich older man. Well, and you would you would have to account for the fact that, even if there was some level of diminishment there, you're also they're also layering in an extra year of survival experience and encounters, and so they would probably more than offset anything like that. I just I've never thought about it that way. Yeah. Well, I also think about you know, where do we lose our hearing from listening to too many chainsaws? Rock and rolls are gunshots? You're right? Yeah, for our vision is based on watching computers screens, we lose it. You don't do any of that stuff, right, Yeah, Well that's true. And in one very specific instance, I can say you can lose some hearing if your dipshit buddy shoots a twelve gage right by your ear when a grouse flies over, and your ears will never stop ringing again. Uh So that's that's a bummer. And they don't have that happened very often to them. I guess, Okay, occasionally I'll have a gun shot that you know, if if somebody happens to miss. But if they're lucky, they got they got that gun shot, right, yep, yep. Um, let's talk about so I think if you if you were gonna just like rank them, if you're gonna ask hunters like, okay, what's the what's the sense or you know, what's the sense you want to avoid the most? You know, I think you people would waffle back and forth between eyesight and hearing, you know, like you don't want to get spotted, you don't want dear to hear you're doing something dumb. But the nose is the one you want to beat, and the nose is the one that's probably the hardest for us to understand, wouldn't you say? Yeah? But you know what I've thought at I've asked asked that question, and had that question asked me. I think that probably the most important one that I would want to beat is their sense of vision, and particularly with their ability to detect movement, and that is the office one. The sense of smell is easier to beat. All you have to be is down wind of the deer and you beat it right. So that that's the trick is not how do you how do you mask your oder. It's just present your order into a place where you expected deer to be. M hmm, well so I would look at that maybe a little bit differently. So, yes, if you're sitting in your tree stand and you're sent blows to that deer, you're in trouble. But we're also like, I'm I'm super into training bird dogs and and working with dogs, and like, I'm fascinated by their ability to smell stuff, right, no question, it's it's it's it's we can't even fathom what they appreciate through their nose. No, not, we don't. I don't think we could even in a millionaire were not even anywhere near it. But so what I think about is, yes, we have to we have two tasks with white tails a lot of times, right the immediate moment of the hunt where you're like I don't want him to smell me, or it's over or whoever, you know, whatever deer is going by, But we're also leaving residual scent out there, and I feel like we educate them that way, uh, to a level that we probably can't really appreciate. That's that's conceivable. But you know, there's also a pout using everything else walking through those wizard are potential predators for them, that's leaving. That's you know, they're sent in different places. You know, is it is how important is it for a deer to know that something was there versus something is there? And I think the most important aspect is something is there? Right, So if it's an older scent that we've left, and you know, you're can very likely tell the age of sense as well. And it's clearly they can tell the age of the difference in the age of attracted another deer left, or that the predator left very likely human as well. Well. So I wonder about that because you know, the evaporation level of the scent, you know, like knowing which direction you were going, how long ago you were there. Like they're they're really figuring out a lot of stuff with dogs on that front, which is fascinating. Like everybody's like, how does the dog know when I'm coming home from work? And it's like it's a condition from you know, being left at home every day and they know You're scent smells at this strength now at five o'clock at night, so you're coming home, you know, And when I hear stuff like that. I always try to think about it in like a deer's in a deer's world, but there's just there's just so much going on there. But when I when I heard you on on bows podcast, I would if you would asked me before I listen to you say this, I would have said, scent, you know, they're their old factory abilities. That is predator detection, that's that's like a major thing for him. But you actually said that it's it's more about food and communication. Yeah, and I would I would still say that that, you know, predators, you know, the sense of smell is tremendous for predator detection if the predator is in the right place, you know, if the predators approaching from down wind, the sense of smells is totally useless for the deer. Right. So, but you know the other aspect is, you know the sense of smell that people don't appreciate is you know, do you have to find food? You know? Uh, you know, basically that's what they're doing is all day long is forging. And how do they find that food. They don't find that food by looking for it. They don't pick up an acorn to look and see if it's a good acorn versus a bad acorn. They smell the difference. Right. If you ever sat on a deer stand and you know, wash meat and acorns, you don't see them looking for acorns. There's snuffing, you can hear, you can actually hear them, you know, snuffing in the leaves for the acorns. So they're they're detecting what they're gonna pick on, what they're gonna eat based on the sense of smell, you know. Rankly, their their eyes for that up closed vision are not that good anyways, So they probably have a harder time finding an acorn with their eyes than we would, yeah, because they're not there. Their eyesight's not wired for that. And then and then on top of that, you know, they don't go around with a with you know, a dendrology book trying to identify dick plants and different leaves based on the shape of their leaves and stuff like that. They know what it's supposed to eat and what they're not supposed to eat by the smell of those plants, you know, and some plants they have different compounds. They don't call it antire beervery compounds like tannins and so forth that deer can pick up on with their sense of smell or and or their sense of taste, and they can reject those in difference to other plants. And you've probably even noticed that, you know, deer can tell something They typically pick the young growth, or deer can even pick out something that's been fertilized versus something that's not been fertilized, because there's something different about that plant, and that's not by vision, that's by the sense of smell. That sense of smell is incredibly important for them to do for foraging. They can probably they can probably differentiate like levels of ripeness and fruit. Uh. They can probably differentiate like to some extent, like micronutrient levels in different stuff. Huh, certainly. Yeah, I don't think there's any question about that. How do you study that? Uh, I don't know that should do. So we're just yeah, I'll tell you what you know. I started out my career looking a lot with your scent communication and do the sense of smell and stuff like that. And that's why we've switched to hearing vision because it's got a lot easier to do those studies because the sense of smell, there's so many aspects of this, so many variables that come into play without you know, working with the sense of smell, and we really have no appreciation for what the deer smells, you know, for even a comparison studies. So you know, how how do you study those things that you know you sometimes you maybe you not even need to study them. Just good observation can tell you some of this stuff what's going on. Right. You don't have to have a controlled scientific experiment to know that if you fertilize your as alius in your front yard and deals end up eating your ass aliens, right, which would tell you that deer can tell the difference. So and you know, it's even interesting, you know, just observations, like there are times of year when deer will forage on different types of plants. There's a lot of plants that in the fall time they dear will you know, they won't use utilize those plants all summer long, and then comes sometime in later August or early into September, they'll start really hitting those types of plants. What's changed are the deer hungrier? I don't think so. I think what what has changed is something's changed about those plants, and as those plants are going to go into sin escence, you know, they're going to their decisionous plants. Maybe they're losing their you know, those secondary compounds that are those toxic compounds that you're you know, causing deer to avoid them. Or maybe the sugar levels are going up because of their their transporting some of those sugars you know, into the root system. So there's there's differences that are occurring physiologically in those plants that you are able to pick up with, and they're doing that with their senses. Now do you do you think because we you know, when you talk about like a sugar content of you know, certain plants after the first hard frost or something like that, or you know, a ripe apple versus of you know, an early green one, that's just not the same thing. Do do you think that we because you know, we eat off of taste, right, like we we just do, Like we're not most of us aren't paying attention to like micronutrient levels and stuff like that while we're eating and trying to have like a truly balanced diet that way. But we do also kind of like inherently sometimes crave things that our body needs, you know, like if you go into the Elk Mountains for ten days, yeah, you know, on day eight you have a different like you you have a different desire for food. Like even if you've kept yourself well fed with whatever calorie amount you needed and you weren't in a big deficit, you're still like, man, I want a salad in a bacon cheeseburgers, Like there's something your body or pregnant women like they yeah, those crazy, Like there's a reason they're eating chalk, And it's not because they're sitting here going like I really like the taste of chalk. Just once in a while, they're going the body is saying something. So I wonder about deer because we always focus on like the the taste aspect. It's like, oh, they're gonna they're gonna hit the brass because now because it got to ten degrees last night, and the sugar content or whatever. But I wonder how much of that is just tied to them inherently or instinctively knowing I need you know, I need more of this, I need more of that. I need my you know, like I need this to be healthy. And they're probably not aware of it. Yeah, and it could be I think, you know that is it either or or both? And I think it's a both. And you know, you know, the change in the taste probably affects them as well. We'll think about one that's you know, very clear, they're craving for salt, and they only create salt during certain times of year. That's during the spring and early summer when vegetation is very succulent. They're taking in a lot of water content, which means they're urinating allots, which means they're losing a lot of sodium. And that's what the that's what's driving their salt uses, the sodium deficit that most herbivores are running running against just just because of the seasonal timing, and they're flushing out their system more right, right, because you know, there there's so much they're taking in, so much of that moisture in that young, succulent vegetation. They're not drinking that much water. They're just they're just having to get rid of a lot of water, which means you're going to get rid of a lot of sodium as well. So that's that's not tied to antler growth or anything like that. Huh, not necessarily, yeah, m you know, and it's probably you know, there's also some aspect of fetal growth in there as well, you know, in that springtime. So but you know, we've seen some really neat movement patterns of deer in response to the sodium drive as well. Where we had a study up in West Virginia a number of years ago where we had radio colored a bunch of radio colored does and on this study or in these when for about a week or two would just disappear and it generally occurs sometime in May or June, and then about two weeks later they'd come back. And this was before the days of GPS, so we ended up having to go around, you know, really dry around and find these doughs. And it turned out a lot of these doughs were going to some old gas wells where there was a pool of water out in front of these old gas wells, and we took some measurements of that water and it had really high sodium levels in it. So these doughs would go and sometimes they would go miles to pick up you know and camp out for a week or two at these sodium sources and then come back and to their home range. So you know, it's kind of interesting that there's two aspects of that are kind of need. Is one of the deer have an ability to recycle sodium in their body, so they're picking up that sodium load and they're you know, and keeping it. But the question is how did they find it? Well, that's what I was gonna ask you, how how the hell did they find that? Well? As well as interesting that that some of the deer did this and some of the dear dnt And you know, we don't know this for sure, but it's very likely that some of the deer that actually went to these sodium sources must have been deer that have dispersed it sometimes or their ancestors dispersed it sometime into this new area. But when these dose went a lot of times in June or even into July, a lot of times they took their yearlings with them, and sometimes they took their phones with them. So they were learning this like a migration pattern. They learned this from and so it becomes a cultural knowledge in that deer herd amongst some of the deer that hey, we go get our sodium and at this place, So do you do you think there's any way it's gonna be super wool, there's any way that there's like an ancestral sort of memory or something there that a deer. Let's say that you take a two year old oo that's never been shown one of those spots. Could she know, like I mean, we we could never know, right, Yeah, And I don't I don't think she could know, Yeah, because they did. You know, it doesn't make that sense of that sheet knew because why didn't some of the other deer do it? But you know, you think about back in the you know, pre Columbian days, before you know, the white man got here, there are places where they were kind of mass migrations of herbivores to some of these sodium areas that you know, they call them salt licks. And there's a number of different places you hear about deer run lick or some something you know, Salt Creek or something like that, you know, all times kinds of place to particularly across the eastern United States, and those were placed where the Indians and later the you know, the early settlers set up to go kill deer because they knew the deer were going to be coming to these things, So it must be something that they learned through time, and there were migrations to these sodium sources. Well yeah, I mean we we bring sort of a modern spin to that study you're talking about, where you think about the source. You know, it's a man made source, and you don't think about it the same way as you do a natural salt lick out there somewhere where generations of deer would find it or be around it, or be aware of it in proximity to where their home ranges or whatever. But it's really like it doesn't the deer don't care that that was not natural. They don't give a ship if it was. Whoever put it there doesn't matter to them. They just that's like a thing that there they find and they know they need in a certain percentage of them past that knowledge on. And that's just how it happens, right, And you know, in most places we don't see that that that drive anymore, or those movements in response to salt, because they're sold everywhere, hundreds of putting out salt. You know, every got you know, a couple of salt blocks on it, and they're sold on roadsides, you know, after winter times, so you know, there's just lots of salt available for deer. Now, yeah, it's not. It's just not a limited resource for them anymore. Right, So, how did you when you when you mentioned earlier that studying how a deer you know, how good does the deer's knows and how does it work? You mentioned how challenging that was, and it kind of kind of motivates you to go study some other senses a little bit more. But one of the things we didn't study how good a deer's knows is. We we studied more on the different glands that deer head and how they utilize those glands for communication and such, you know, and that and identifying some of the chemical analysis of those glands. But you know, there's been a just a couple of studies that actually kind of tried to approach this idea of how well a deer can smell compared to a human. And one of the ways they did that by actually counting the number of sensory receptors in the nose. You know, you can and you can find widely different estimates on this thing, basically in the in the scientific literature and on you know, in the popular magazines as well, and it was one. You know, one time, I believe that humans only had about five million receptors, you know, and now now the fostsl are that somewhere between ten and ten and fifty million receptors. But you know, there was a study done on white tails back in the nineties that I think they came up with something like million back there, but that was that's probably a low estimate, and that number very likely if it's comparable to you know, some of the stuff we know about dogs now, it might be over a billion yea of different receptors. So you know, just the structure of the nose of the human compared to the structure of the nose of the deer, you know, speaks to the how well they can smell. Yeah. Well, one thing I don't think people really appreciate that much though, is that, you know, to smell a particular smell, you need a receptor site that's keyed to that scent. It's not just there's just a random any set any receptor site can pick up any any odor. It's gonna happen a mash between the receptor side and the odor. So there, you know, the receptor sides are are probably built around what a deer what sense are important to dear too, versus you know, a human receptors might be built around what's important to human. So it's it's actually conceivable, but there are there may be some odors that humans could spell better than deer. It's conceivable, you know, I don't know what that might be. But the you know, the point is that there are so many receptors sites on on deer, and very likely a lot of them are keyed into some of these highly bottled compounds that are dispersed by the wind that are for you know, for predator avoidance as well as some of the things associated with with the frous resources too. So deer very likely able to pick up on some sense that we can't even smell period, regardless of their concentration. Yeah, well, wouldn't it be, I mean, doesn't it make sense to say then that sure, like we we smell of gasoline, right, you get gasoline in your hands, We smell. We know that scent, we know what it means. A deer, without question, could probably smell gasoline. It probably just doesn't matter to them. It might just be like like a curious scent. But in their worldview, they probably really don't like it, probably doesn't register as much of like, probably doesn't matter. Yeah, that that kind of brings up the the idea. You know, if if you smell something, do you have an innate response to it or is it a learned response to it? And most smells, you know, you you you respond to that based on a learned behavior. So deer learns what's what smells maybe bad or what smells are good. They must learn the smell of a predator from their mother. Do they inherently fear a predator? You know, there might be some aspect of that, but I think you know how many times you can train a deer to walk up to a human. We train them all the time. You know, they're not afraid of the smell of a human. Inherently they learn that, and you look at it, you know, suburban urban deer, they're not afraid of the smell of a human. You know. So it's it's much more of a learned behavior which which things are important, in which things are not important to them? Yeah, um, you know, I mean you think about that from the perspective of a you know, if a fawn out there when mom bumps into the scent of you know, a coyote just went through her, a wolf or something just went through her reaction that. You know, we don't think about communication in body language nearly as much as we probably should. You do a lot when you train dogs, but you know, there's an entire lesson with every encounter that they're just throughout osmosis. Man, they're just taking that in and we we don't think about it that way. We think of it as something inherent. But you're right, I mean it probably all of that stuff is learned right right, And I think a lot of it, like you said, is learned through body language. How the how the damn responds to something that the phone learner responded that way as well. And there are just so many subtle things that, dear dude that you know, most humans, if you don't train, your eyes are not trained to it. You don't see that you're actually doing that. You know, I learned a lot from my wife who she's trained horses all her life, and she can tell what horses thinking. Just buy what that horses. It's posture, ear posture and stuff like that. So you know, I translate a lot of that and deer as well. Yeah, that that world. It's so fascinating. I mean when you when you talk about you know, dog training. I hate to keep going back to this, but you know, we have years of coevolution and we haven't been able to speak to each other, and yet we can do a lot of really cool stuff, you know, I mean, we we can speak to a dog, right, but it's not it's not you and I having a conversation. And yet they can figure out a hell of a lot about what we want just by how we move and how we look and I you know, eye contact and all that stuff. And then you think about these animals out there, and you know, you know, social animals like deer living together. There's there's so much going on and and so much behavior that we really don't get to observe like we we think we do as hunters. We're like, oh, we're pretty clued into this scrape behavior or fighting, you know, And then you think, well, how often do you actually watch two bucks really fight or two does you know, get up on their hind legs and squat each other. It's pretty rare, and when when you do, you're getting a lesson in body language every time. Right, But a lot of times what you see there's precursors to that in all types of body language that's being used, and many times it's avoiding because of those precursors. Yeah, you see him, You see him kind of bump up a little bit, But they don't. You know, some somebody wins without having to win, win, right because you know that if you're going to get into a fight that that becomes risky for you. Why take that risk if you can just use and you know, and an ear drop or something like that that avoid Yeah, and that I mean this kind of goes back to what we talked about earlier about you know, calling to a deer that's looking away versus calling towards you, and and just paying attention to dear behavior. I mean, every time every time you have two bucks square up around you, or you know, kind of bump up against one another, and don't they're not gonna fight, but they're doing something. They're you know, like they're they're working on each other a little bit. Or you watch that dominant dough in the little Kill plot and that year and a half old dough tries to come in and you see just the just to suttle a hunch you know, like she's saying something. It teaches you so much about how you need to interact with them, like if you like to call or like what you know, like what level of interaction you're gonna have with that specific deer that morning as he's walking by, like it, does he look like a deer who's gonna be callable? Like is he going to be susceptible to the snort wheel er? Is he going to be gonzo? Yeah? Or even you know, attending grunt is you know, I've had I've had bucks that I knew were there. I learned this a long time ago that there are time to use attending grunt and tome not to And the peak of the right is not the time to use attending grunt because most of the bucks out there have a dough with them. So if they're just if they're already on on a hot no, you use it, you know, an aggressive grunt or attending grunt or something like that. They're they're not going to come to fight. They're going to take that do and turn her away and go the other direction. Right, So you know, I use a grunt before and after the peak of the rep but not actually during the peak of the Red. Yeah me too. I Actually I really like early season when you when you see the right situation. Like I killed a buck in Minnesota, I don't know, five or six years ago, and he came out and there was already two little bucks out in the field and just kind of the way he was around him. I was like, I'm gonna grunt this dude and kill him. And it took like five contact grunts and you could just see him just he was just like I don't want to be I'm not gonna let anybody who's in this field talk to me that way, like you could just see. And part of it was the way he was interacting with those other bucks. And he came in and I shot him, and it was like almost it was just one of those moments where you just look at it and you go, this is the guy. Like it's like that hot two year old turkey that you run into that hits your you know, as soon as you yell pee gobbles, you're like, oh, y, yeah, this one's coming. Man. Uh. Let's let's switch gears here a little bit and talk about deer management. What what what's going on? What do you what's what's the future of of the white tail. I'm gonna give you a really hard question, because there's a million things we could go But how do you feel about the future of white tails? Uh? Well, that's that's that's a well, that's a thousand dollar questions. Oh hey, let me rephrase that. Are we gonna be hunting white tales in fifty years? Yeah? Here here? You know, I've I've often thought of this, this question, you know, and if I how I respond if I was asked this question. You know, the white tail, from the time we started restoring white tailed deer over a hundreds some years ago, has always had issues that biologists and hunters have had to get go get through to get us to where we are. So, you know, at one time there weren't any here. Then we went through the restoration phase, and then we ended up with in many places, we went in through the popular overpopulation phase, you know, in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Michigan, all throughout the New England states. And you know, there's always been a different phase that we've gone through. Someone been easier to surmountain some of them. Having the white tale is facing a number of challenges right now, and one of the bigest challenges, of course the c w D, which I know you've done a podcast on, but that one is a major, a major issue, because there's no right now, there's nothing in the course sitable future that's going to stop. So it's gonna be ubiquitous across the white tails range someday, very likely it will be, and it's not it's going to affect dear populations, and it's gonna affect deer hunters and the number of hunters. And I think that the number of hunters is a very important aspect of this. We've already had seen over the last couple of decades of decline in the numbers of hunters. The recruitment and retention of hunters has gone down pretty dramatically over the last couple of decades, which that supports the funding free agencies and so forth. So you know, when the money starts to dry up, then the management starts to decrease, and you know, you get a vicious cycle here. So that's a tough one to deal with. You know, although you know that if there was a bright spot to COVID, you know that COVID actually put a bunch of people in the woods. When you couldn't do you know, anything else. So there was a bump up. And then you know this idea with the local order, you know, the hunters, you recruiting new hunters. You know, that's a it's a good movement in the right direction, you know. So I think we're you know, that one is being addressed. The c w D issue. That's also gonna have affect populations. Um, you know, areas where you have high productivity, like where it is in Wisconsin and stuff like that. In places like that high productivity, you can manage around it, although we unite might not be managed for the mature buses because those are the ones that have the highest prevalence rates. Right. But in some areas where um you got inherently low productivity deer hers throwing c w ding on top of that, could could be you know, pretty strong population influence driving those populations down. Yeah. So that's that's that's one major living much. One other major issue is well that I see, particularly in the East United States, is the changing predator context that the white tail losing. Now, uh, you know, we didn't have coyotes, we do have kiots. Beer populations where bears occur are at an all time higher or a stort high UH. And both of those are tremendous predators on pawns, and in some areas, like the Southern Appalachians, they're driving deer populations down to the point where right now we just are finishing up a study in North Georgia where the survival rate is incredibly lower fawds UH, and it's most mostly due to predation by bears and coyotes, to the point where even uh, even eliminating antler harvest antler list harvest completely, those populations aren't going to recover unless there's something that can be done to increase bonding recruitment. You know, in most areas where we have a good productivity, we can deal with fond you know, faw predation aspects by predators by reducing ant lost harvest. But there are some areas where we're not gonna be able to do that, and those deer populations are going to be no, They're will be difficult to deal with. Places in Georgia North Groorgan Mountains where we historically have you know, some more earliest deer hunting was done up there. Well, the number of hunters is incredibly old and now be just because the deer are gone, and so this this is probably I'm guessing there's some people listening to this who are young enough or they don't really understand that what you're talking about here is their deer herds that haven't historically had coyotes uh to deal with like this, this is a new thing. Like if you look at the history of coyotes where they came from in the Southwest and have been pushed farther out into the country and they've expanded and they're there. You know, we talked about the adaptability of white tails, which is incredible in the diverse environments they can take hold of and and and be pretty facund in there. When you look at the story of the coyote, that's incredible. That's that's like, think of them what you will. They are an incredible survival machine. And you know that you look at their die had they eat everything from scorpions on up, you know, and and you'll see them eating apples and stuff sometimes off your stand like there crazy. And now you've got these populations of deer you know, did have been there for generations and generations and they're dealing with a predator that they don't have that ancestral kind of uh, you know knowledge or you know, survivors survival skills to deal with. And then you throw in bear. You know, bear populations on the rise, and how good they are at chomping fonds for the first you know, x amount of weeks that they're dropped. And it's a sort of a rough picture. Yeah, when you when you think about I don't think until some of the last decade or two when the research was done in Pennsylvania, here a Georgia in the number of places across you know, across the country, how effective both bears and kyles are when it comes to take a fawns. But when you think about it, for seven or fourteen days or more, you got these little protein package laying out all over the woods. Just all they have to do is pick them up. I remember what one time a few years ago up in Pennsylvania, I was up there during right during the pick of the fawning, and in some of the fourth there's a lot of hasten and fern, a lot of fern cover on the on the ground, and I saw a place where a bear had gone through and had were actually worked a grid pattern back and forth back and forth, back and forth, you know, looking for fawns at that time, you know, and that bear could do that all day long. How many funds is he going to encounter? Certainly is going to be start below you know. Yeah, well that's why I think that I've talked about this on here a few times. They studied uh fawn mortality in the in the county I hunt over in northern Wisconsin, and it was pretty dismal. It was nine of the funds were killed in the first eleven months, and like two thirds of those were predation and the bears were the number one predator. And you're talking a place with a high prevalence of you've got bears, coyotes, you've got some wolves they're not a not a ton, but you've got bob cats. You you've got things that can chomp on fawns, and bears are so good at it. When you said that of the fonds that were born died or the mortality of fawnds based on predators, they were dead. So no, no, So of the funds they studied were dead within the first eleven months, and two thirds of those were predator, right, yeah, So, and I mean it's one County. It's you know it. But to me it was an eye opener because we you know, it's the only place I ever hunt where I just incidentally see bears quite often, Like there's there's a lot of them there, and you know, we've always had trouble with deer, like you just don't have very many of them, and you start seeing that connection and then you think about, you know, it's something I want to ask you about. Is like you take that just for what it is. If you're hunt in the big woods up north, you're like, Okay, I'm around these predators that have just kind of always been here, right Like, I mean, you know, the wolf populations have changed and we know that story, but generally they've had a rough the deer have a rough go of it up there. But now you talk about you know, you're talking about Georgia and you're talking about the southeast, and you're talking about places where you know, like these predators haven't been you know, the counties haven't been there. The bears probably been there, but not to the extent they are so and now you know, you know how people like to talk about, well, there's bobcats everywhere, or there's mountain lions making it into this spot. Why why are the predators doing so well in these places we go? Bear populations are doing well because the bear harvest has been restricted enough to allow the bear populaces to recover. To the point is, you know, actually in some place like North Rodian Mountains you can take multiple bears. Now the point it was after you shoot one bear, particularly in those mountains, and you have to get it out of the humming bears you need to to kill in your lifetime. It's not like you're going out and killing deer for the freezer. So so you know, the harvest has not matched the population growth, and the population growth, based on what our research has shown over the last several decades, it's continuing to increase in the bear population. So the kyots, you know, Kyle has been extremely successful, particularly here in the southeast, because you know, we have such varied habitats from urban, suburban and agricultural. You know, different types of forest types all interspersed together. There's plenty for a kyote because I'll eat just about anything, and we probably have higher kyoud densities here than you know then most places you would ever expect to find Kyos maybe maybe similar to South Texas. You know. Um, so when you got that high density to Kyle's out there, and then just for a few brief time you have all these sponsor at the ground, they're going to key in on those things because it's a very easy, easy thing for them to find, and particularly it's easy for them to catch some of that stuff and carry it back to the the pups in the den. Because those things are happening at the same time they're raising pups. They can carry the little protein package back. You know, it's not picture of that versus going out and trying to catch a bunch of mice and carrying them back. Do your puffs. You know, they're going to key on those fawnds. Yeah, you're when you're you know, when we're really hungry, we've we've gravitate towards calorie dense food, which is why we eat a lot of junk food. But we don't think about that the same way. If you're a coyote out there and you can work all day to catch a bunch of grasshoppers, or you can work all day and find one fawn, you know what you're gonna do. Yeah, Yeah, If there was a market for kyotes or if there's a you know right now, you know the highest mortality of kyles in Georgia and most of the southeast or hunter harps to kylets. It's a lot of people hunting kylets. Uh. And then the road kills are the other major influence. But you think of one kyle producing you know plast six, seven, eight, eight pubs, persons of fawn are dope producing one and maybe two fawns. Uh. It's kind of disproportionate there. Yeah, And you know, we don't have we don't have the trapping that we used to, you know, I mean it's just yet we just generally don't. That's that's such a such an effective way to control coyotes and some of the other predators. And I think, you know, I don't know, I don't know about where you live it. So I live in the I live in the suburbs of the Twin Cities, and these people around me, like my wife's friends, they have no clue about nature, like they just they just don't. So when everybody started getting like ring doorbell cameras and you know, like the surveillance cameras, that a lot of people have or you know a lot of people will put out a trail camera on their bird feeder or whatever now, you know, so it's like they're seeing, oh my god, there's coyotes everywhere. I'm like, yeah, you can freaking hear them. I hear coyotes all the time right at my front door. And now the bear thing, you know, it's like, oh my god, we we now we have bears. And I'm like, now you see bears. You didn't. You didn't understand how, you know, like we we think of these animals as sort of being out in the wild, you know, like a bear. It bears the prime example, right, Like, when the average person thinks of a bear, they think of it in the big woods, out in the wild, and you know, he's see it in this beautiful place or whatever. And they're living in your backyard, eating in your bird feeder, and you know, digging up like bees nests and stuff in on the soccer field. You know, like they they're living there right there with us, with these deer and they're just their populations are doing really well, and we kind of don't. We don't seem to really recognize how detrimental that can be until it catches up to our dear populations and by then you're in a really reactive state. It's rough. Yeah. And you know, the other thing is the dear populations have done the same thing that they were the first ones to move into the suburbs, you know, and in the urban suburban areas, and now these other things are following them in there because frankly, there's nothing for them to fear, you know, And that that's the whole concept in ecology called the ecology of fear, and fear is a very important driver on animals behavior, you know, fear of being predated on you know, you know, what does the kyot have to fear in the suburbs, Maybe the front end of a ford or something, but that's about it. You know, Uh, deer and suburbs don't have anything to fear. Now, bears are getting into the same situation. They're not hunted in these situations, so they have no fear of humans. And with having no fear of humans, are going to co exist with humans. Yeah, and it and I think that we really underestimate how good they are at not showing themselves to us, you know, they are they are masters of of staying hidden up, Carl. We are just about out of time. So I got one question I want to ask you. In all the research you've done, and it's been a ton, you've learned, a ton, You've you've contributed so much to this space, what's the question that you just that keeps you up at night that you want to learn about? Dear? Like, what's one thing that you're like, I wish if you could wave a magic one and you could study it and and probably come to an answer, what would it be? Well, I'll tell you what. It comes back to what we were talking about. If I could do like spot with a Bulkan mind meld, you know, get de side of your brain, you know, I'll think there there's just really getting a field for what their experience and when their experiences sensory inputs from there, either their eyes or their nose, you know, because we've done a lot of that stuff with the deer vision and stuff like that, and we've got a good feel for what they see. But you know, we can say it's say it's something, but we can't experience that, you know, So that'd be the neatest thing and be able to experience what they actually you know, experienced when they're visualizing something or you know, either whether a deer or a dog, Like you said, I've trained dog all my life as well scent dogs, and just the world that they live in in this world of aromas, world of chemicals, is just fascinating. We have absolutely no appreciation for it. I know. That's that drives me nuts too. I just wish. I mean when you think about if you just like if you're standing in a cattail slow and you just look around and you like all the details you see, like if you're pheasant hunting, you know, like just just visually what you can pick up, and then think about how if you could do that with your nose. You close your eyes and and perceive that much different stuff going on, but do it with your nose, and it's so crazy. Yeah. So you know you asked me earlier a question. I don't know if you got a second or not, but you know, which set would the deer most likely want not want to lose? You know, that idea about the sense of smells, if it's related to predation, that's that's one aspect. But you know, I think a deer without a sense of smell would have a hard time survival. I think a blind deer could survive better than a deal without a sense of smell because it's a communication or because of the predator and food. Oh, a blind deer can find something to eat, but a deer without a nose is going to have a hard time. Yeah, yeah, you don't think about that. Um, Carl, this has been so much fun. Man, I'm so glad I got to talk to you and have you on here. Um. I really appreciate it. It has been a quick hour. I'll tell you, well, we'll do we'll do it again more more. Welcome to awesome. Thank you so much, and that's it for this week, folks, be sure to tune in next week for some more white tailed goodness. This has been Wired to Hunt and I'm your guest host, Tony Peterson. As always, I just want to thank you so much for listening and so much for your support. And if you're in the market for a little bit more white tail content, you can head on over to the meat eater dot com slash wired again, that's the meat eater dot com slash wired and you'll see a pile of new articles by guys like Bo Martonic and Andy May and myself and Mark whole bunch of them, and if you want more, you can head over to our YouTube channel as well. If if those articles aren't enough, we have a Wired to Hunt YouTube channel and we dropped weekly how to videos there as well.