00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four ten in. Today in the show, I'm joined by Clay Newcomb to discuss the murky future of hunting in America and actionable ways to ensure that this lifestyle and pursuit is around for many generations to come. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today in the show, I am joined by mediator, contributor, bow Hunter, mule Rider, Coon, dog runner, and general outdoors and extraordinaire Clay Newcomb, and we're here for a damn good chat. We're talking today about the future are of hunting and some very real risks to that future. You see, there are people out there and organizations and forces that would see, you know, they'd see our way of life and our hunting pursuits relegated to the past, something that used to happen but doesn't anymore. And there's a lot of reasons for this. There's a lot of motivations. But whether we like it or not, whether we want to think about it or not, it's a reality. And the thing is, if if we as a hunting community don't stay abreast of this and we don't do something about it when called upon, it's it's honestly not out of the question that the hunting privilege we enjoy today might not be around for our kids or our grandkids and so on. So Clay and I today are going to dive into some of these issues and some of these topics related to because the ways that we can help ensure the future of hunting they're not always clear cut. It's not like there's just one clear, one size fits all answers, not like, hey, if all hunters do X and we all do the exact same way, it's all gonna be just fine. It's it's a little bit more complicated than that. And that's why this, this whole topic is has been interesting. Really, it's been interesting for me personally, have wrestled with a lot of questions on it, and it's nice that in this case I was finally able to lay some of those questions out there and bounce them around with someone else who's been thinking about this too. Things like you know, how can we band together and support our fellow hunters, even if we do it in different ways. You know, this whole we're all in the same boat thing, But also how can we ensure that no one's punching holes in that boat and sinking the whole thing. We talk about ways to handle questions and controversies around things, maybe like predator hunting that maybe aren't things that we personally participated, but can still impact the future of deer hunting. They like, And that's just one example. Uh, what about stuff related to you know, the whole public relations of hunting, the whole pr battle. Why is that important? And the role that each one of us can play on that front. So that's the plan. I won't belabor it too much here on the front end, but this, this honestly was one of the more engaging and interesting conversations I've had in a while. I really enjoyed it, and I think you will too. So with that, thanks for listening, and let's get to the show all right with me? Now on the line is Clay Newcomb. Clay, welcome back to the show. Hey, Mark, great to be here on the Wire to Hunt podcast for sure. Hey, I'm glad to have you. It's uh, well, what I guess since the last time you were on the show, things have changed quite substantially for you because since then, which I think was last spring sometime, uh, you've officially joined the media team, so publicly welcome to the crew, my friend. Yeah, thanks Mark. Yeah, you're right. Last time I was on the podcast, I was. I was not a Meat Eater team member. Now I am, and since that time, you and I have gotten to know each other better, and uh, yeah I was. I was hired with me that you're back in October early October, so you know, coming on I guess six months or so, and it's been incredible so far. Yeah. So for people that maybe don't know what what are you doing? What do you do for us? Now? So? So, I'm a content creator for meat Eater, which would be similar Mark, really to what you do. I guess I'm not sure your exact title, but uh, I don't know what my title is either. Man, You're just Mark Kenyon. Um. So what I do currently is I, uh, you'll see content produced from me on a monthly basis, multiple times per month, where I'm making videos of writing articles for meat Eater number one, number two that This is no secret, but we've kind of held it back because we've we've we haven't launched it yet, but but I'm gonna be doing a a podcast four Meat Eater that will become a podcast in Meat Eater suite of podcast which you know, Wired to Hunt is one of those podcasts that's in the Meat Eater family. So at some point this spring soon I will will be launching a totally new podcast, which I'm very excited about. And we can talk about that more later, Mark, But so I'm gonna be making a podcast, making content and just contributing to the whole Meat Eater mission. You know. Uh, I was able to hunt with Steve and the guys last spring in Montana, so you know there's some I'll be on some Meteor episodes and uh and uh just just like all the team members at different times were on the Meteor podcast, but just in general doing whatever Metator needs and making some great content, trying to educate people, trying to have fun. Yeah we're doing uh so far, so good man. I've I've enjoyed everything you've put out there, and it's it's it's great to have you in the fold. And and obviously a lot of exciting stuff coming down the line. So um, I'm just glad to have you, Glad to have you here, buddy, and uh and what what I want to talk about today, I think is a big part of the reason why you're such a great fit for our team here, mediator, because you've done a better job than than most I think in and kind of I don't want to say preaching, because there's some maybe there's a negative connotation if in a certain way there. But but you've been you've been speaking the good word on an important issue that I think sometimes we hear in the white tail honey community can overlook It's it's easy for even myself personally. I'm so deep into the white tail thing. I eat, sleep, and breathe this thing. Almost every day I'm thinking about it. It's easy to get tunnel vision and to just think dear, dear, dear, um and not to pay attention to things that go outside of that. So I have to constantly remind myself, kind of knock myself on the side of the head and say, hey, make sure you're paying attention to this thing that's going on on the West coast or this thing that's happening with this critter or that fish or this type of land, because because I do think all of these things do come back and impact us as hunters, regardless of what species you hunt. And so that's that's what I want to get into here with you. And you've you've popular I don't I don't know if you coined this yourself, but I think you did this idea of guarding the gate. Can you can you tell me what that means? We we covered this a little bit a year ago when you refer to the show, but I want to really expand on it. What's this whole guarding the gate thing? So I think I think we'll take a step back from that phrase and we'll get to it. And and I kind of want to set the context for the question that we would all have. That I would have is that why would a why would a white tail hunter care about the broader issues of North American hunting? And I think we've all got to view because well, first of all, there are many parts of the North American hunting model that are insignificant jeopardy. And Mark, I grew up with white tail hunting being my number one thing. I mean, like I was a white only a white tail hunter for a long time, and um and you just have this security and since I mean there's just no there just does not seem to be a a real and present threat to white tail hunting for many, many many reasons. Um So, as a white tail hunter, I entered into the bear world at when I you know, about two thousand nine or so and started getting on the Nash scene with the bear world, and I was pretty shocked by what I saw in that bear hunters were or bear hunting was significantly undertacked by anti hunting groups, I mean like very much so targeted on purpose by anti hunting groups. And number two, I was surprised at the general sentiment in different places of the hunting community even or in the non hunting community about their ideology around bear hunting. So these were these were these two worlds collided, and I didn't see a connection in these two worlds until I got deeper into it on the national scene, and I realized that if we if you value any piece of North American hunting, then every piece of North American hunting needs to be important to you. And first of all, like it's so significant that we understand that and it sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm not, because I'm talking to myself too. We live an incredible life as hunters and modern times, Mark, I mean, even you've been able to go out in your backyard in Michigan and hunt deer and have opportunity, and I mean no very few places in the world is is there anything even comparable? And so we live here. This is all we've known. I've grown up, this is my life. But man, the world is a small place. And with the changes that have happened with technology and social media and uh, I mean, for lack of a better term, and not to touch a political hot button, but globalization. I mean, like the world is now this like really small place, and so things that used to be not seen by the world are now seen by the world. Things that at one time would have only been um influenced by like a small community of people, is now being influenced by the ideologies and worldviews of people who have nothing to do with what we do. And that is a place we've never been before ever, And it's put all kinds of stuff, not just hunting, but hunting is one of these things that has come into the spotlight, and people don't understand the context. They don't understand the science, they don't understand the heritage, they don't understand the world view of the people that do it, they don't understand the motivations of the people that are doing these things. And anti hunting groups have very strategically and very much on purpose, they have marketed this to a broad group of people. It's a very very easy sell for anti hunting groups to say hunting is bad. I mean like, it's a one step cell for someone who has no worldview, uh that that that involves wildlife as a renewable resource and habitat management and and why you know, managing these populations so that they'll thrive. Like so it's like a one step cell for that. And then it's like a five step ten steps cell to bring people to a place of zero understanding to an understanding where they go, wow, actually these guys are doing something good. Well yeah, anti hunting groups have picked up on that, and we've actually become the cash cow in many ways of these nonprofit anti hunting groups because they they're able to to sell this. So this topic is so broad Mark, I'm having a hard time narrowing it down. But but the idea of guard the gate is that the whole idea is that there are fringe and I'm gonna use that word, and I'm change that word one day, but I'm currently not offended by that word. Uh, there are fringe activities inside of hunting, and by fringe, I mean less um less people actually do it. More people do other things their fringe activities inside of hunting that are intricate, intricate parts of the North American model, like bear hunting, trapping, predator hunting, using dogs, using bait, like all these things. They might seem to someone that doesn't use those things. It's just, man, we could just give that away like it's not gonna hurt me if that stuff leaves, well, it actually does. If you want this thing to continue beyond your and I hate to even say this because it's so far humans have such a hard time thinking long term, but we we've absolutely got to We've absolutely got to think long term. Um. But if you want this lifestyle that we lead to continue on to future generations, then we have to care about the whole system. And we have all kinds of examples of this mark inside of of history. Um, because it might seem like conspiracy theory. You might be like, oh, Clay is just one of those dudes that you sound like one of those kok yeah yeah, And man, what's so like? From my personal experience, if you would have come to me in Arkansas and and said clay hunting is under threat, your children won't be able to hunt the same way you have, I would have laughed at you, like, you know, probably ten years ago, Mark, I would have just been like, everybody's got some conspiracy theory about how they're coming after them and going to take away their stuff. That ain't gonna happen. Well, I am the level headed voice of reason that is coming to say, man, we gotta be on our toes. We got to be thinking more than just next year. We got to be thinking long term. And uh and and we can look back in conservation history and say that the guys that did that are the guys that we make statues of and name conservation organizations after because we realize the insight they had, you know, and and I mean, and I'm not I'm not trying to say that that is me, that Mark that came off wrong. But you know, just like we've got to think that way. Yeah, I know what you mean, So so help me help illustrate this, because I get I mean and get this concept to this idea that these these these outside of the center activities or the fringe activities that are they're less popular and that makes them an easier target. I understand that those are more easily attacked by those who who own support hunting. But help me understand, help folks listening understand how those edges being chipped away at could eventually lead to impacting what a white tail hunter is doing, because, like you said, there's a lot of white tail hunters that do not feel like what we're doing here is under clear and present threat. Right. I mean, there's ten million million deer hunters or something like that, and generally something a very high percentage of folks out there across the country are still supportive of deer hunting for food or hunting for food, that kind of thing. So you might be able to sit back and say, yeah, it's not really going to impact me. Um paint me this scenario where that might not be true. Right. So the declared position and the the clear and the clear strategy of anti hunting groups is incrementalism. And that's the phrase that that people could remember and key in on, which means that when when they're trying to take the whole of something, you just can't reach in and take the whole. They can't just come in and say we're passing a bill in the United in the Congress where all hunting is over, Like, that's not gonna work. They know that, so that they chip off the edges. It's called incrementalism. And the thing is is that, I mean, the Humane Society of America made a statement the CEO back in the nineties that they have a their goal is to end all hunting what they call sport hunting. Like so that's that's their end goal. And and again when you look at the look at the way these organizations work, they're massively well funded. And these nonprofits, like these guys, if if they successfully ended bear hunting, they still have massive financial interests and in making money and in in so they're gonna just go after the next thing and make the next thing the target. Like it's like a like a like an animal that just has to continue to be fed. Um, So I'm not saying it's all money. I'm saying money is a big part of it. I am also saying that there are people that truly are passionate about ending sport hunting, and they're not. They're not They're not gonna come to a place where they're just like, Okay, that's enough. It looks like, now, you know, the hunting world in North America is we're satisfied with where it's at. We're gonna let these boys keep deer hunting and shooting squirrels. Uh, that's just not the way they think. Um. And we see this in many places in the world. For instance, Mark, I've got a in my office right here, I have a painting and old painting of an English uh in English fox hunt. And on this painting there's a bunch of dogs, a bunch of walker dogs, and there's a bunch of men on horseback and they're in this beautiful village and there's there's families around bringing food to the hunters. And Uh. I have that painting mounted on the ceiling of my office. Okay, And so when people walk in, they go, huh, why is it on the ceiling and not on the wall, And it's it's symbolic. Uh, that scene is no longer on the earth anymore. Like in in most places in all of Europe it is illegal fox with hounds. It's a few places it still is. But essentially this one thing that was so significant to European culture, you know, a hundred fifty years ago, which when you see that, I mean like even people that aren't hunters, when they see that, they go, oh man, that's one of those fox hunts. I mean that that that permeated the world. And uh, today they can't do it. And uh it's a to me. It's a reminder that I don't want people to be making paintings about the glory days of North American hunting and it not no longer be here, you know, Mark, does that answer your question? In some ways? There? Could I be more specific? No, it does. It does answer my question, and and it also brings to mind you mentioned incrementalism. I think another kind of cousin, uh to incrementalism is something known as shifting baseline syndrome, which is this idea that each one of us um has kind of an internal baseline when we when we think about a concept or a or quality of life or whatever. And usually for many of us, we we established some kind of baseline in our early adulthood. Um, and this can apply to a lot different realms. But let's just think about in the case of hunting. We come into the world and we established kind of what's okay, and so we see what's around us, and we see like, oh yeah, people hunt for deer, people hunt for bears, people hunt for all these different ers, and they they have this lifestyle and there's all these things. But if we fast forward twenty years from now and then all of a sudden, you start seeing this this incremental impact of well, now you can't bait for bears, or now you can't use hounds for bears. All these things happen in ah this state or that state, or this thing gets outlawed in this state, and you start seeing all these tiny shifts being made, these tiny chips away at the larger statue. All of a sudden, for much of the world or much of the country, that baseline starts shifting. And once that baseline shifts, the next thing becomes that much less of a change. So if you were to compare what was okay quote unquote twenty years ago to what might be deemed as okay quote unquote, you know, in two thousand forty, all of a sudden, that baseline could be shifted significantly, so much so that then when they think, well, should you really be able to bow hunt for deer anymore? I don't know. You can't use bait to hunt bears, you can't use dogs hunt bearris, you can't use this, you can't hunt predators at all. You can't do this and this and this, yeah, and why can't you do that? Well, it's because we've all this is this, this uh you know, hypothetical person in the future who's saying this, Well, we decided that this thing is not ethical, and this thing is not ethical, and this thing is not ethical. So yeah, I don't think that using a bow is ethical anymore because it's etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And if this baseline keeps moving, it leads to those things becoming an easy next step to be to be crossed off the list. Um. And so that's something I think that is tied into this whole conversation too, because it's it's kind of like a damn, We've got this damned up reservoir, and every time a little hole is poked in that damn some water shooting out of it, and we might be a hold most of that reservoir back, but every additional hole poked in it, it becomes easier and easier and easier to lose the water until one day that damn is gonna burst open and the whole damn thing is gonna go flushing down the river system. We gotta keep the holes plugged, We gotta keep the damn in place. If the thing that the damn is holding up is your lifestyle, your passion, this thing that we that both of us and probably everybody listening, this thing we all believe is is an important thing, not just for us personally, but also in the big picture, an important an important part of North American culture and management and conservation of wildlife resources. All those things are dependent on having an active and engaged hunting population. Um, if that damn breaks, all that changes. Yeah, that's a great point. Mark the shifting baseline really is. And here's you know, if we started back in the deep history of modern North American hunting, we would be talking about like the market hunting era that turned into in the early twentieth century, the the these first and fresh ideas of wildlife management, conservation, wildlife management and regulated harvest and all these things. There were times when parts of our hunting culture needed to be shaved off. If you're with me, like they're they're you know, like the market hunting world, Like that wasn't cool. We didn't know it at the time, but like it wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't last. And then then we came into this whole idea, you know, with Roosevelt and Aldo Leopold and in all these great conservation organizations coming of age, and then we have this like incredible, I mean, the most one of the most well the most unique story in modern human history of while of bringing back wildlife is the story of the North American wildlife recovery. You know, that's taken place in the last hundred and fifty years in this country. So there were things that needed to be shaved off by society, like, yeah, we probably shouldn't be like, uh, market hunting for ducks, you know, killing a thousand ducks on the water at the same time. Yeah, we shouldn't be you know, doing buffalo jumps. Uh, you know that's a bad example. But you know, Margaret hunt for buffaloes. Everybody knows that. Here's the point we have fine tuned the North American mile of wildlife conservation to the point that we have nothing left to give. And I'm not saying that it's perfect mark, but what i am saying is we've got nothing left to give the anti hunting community. And we have We've proven that by our track record of the success of the twenty nine big game species in North America and the and we know that most of these animals are indicator species in these habitats. So you know, if you've got Arkansas black bears in Arkansas, that means that a whole lot of non game species are doing good too, because if that bear is there, that means that this whole, this whole order of habitat is in order, all the way down to the micro crustaceans, you know. And so like point being, our our track record speaks for us that this has worked. So we've we've found this like beautiful place in history where we can say what we're doing is working. What we're doing will last another five hundred years, you know, if this place is still here that long. So we've found this like great spot to just say what we're doing is working, Let's keep doing this and that's where and and and what I like to say is we've got nothing left to give the anti hunting community. Um, because we've shaped, we've the chaff has gone away, we've shaved off, we've honed, we've changed, and so anything that's lost at this point is it's going to be negative for hunting. And uh, you know, and we go back to all the way and this goes back to educating people. You know, like somebody might say, well, I don't like baiting bears. Well, anywhere that you bait bears in North America. It's a management decision for wildlife game agencies to be able to harvest the number of bears that need to harvest. Well, I don't like hunting with hounds. Well, anywhere that you can hunt with hounds. It's been a it is it is designed as a wildlife management tool by the agencies that love wildlife want to see them thrive. They've chosen to use hound hunting. There's a method to selectively harvest animals out of the population. Well I don't like, um, you know, being able. You know, you just go down the list and it's like we've got an answer for everything. There's not there's not just some fluff um that needs to be shaved off. And I think that's the point, and that's the declaration that we've kind of make, got to make as a community. And so that's where like I want to give my support two things that I may never even be that interested in. I've never killed a bear over hounds. Mark. That might surprise some people because I'm so outspokenly for hounds. And uh, I've never killed a barrel of hounds. I'm sure I will someday, but like, I don't even and it's this is a long story, but I'm just trying to describe a point that I try to live is that I don't own bear dogs. We can't hunt bear here in Arkansas with dogs. I do own coon hounds that come from bare lines. But man, I just feel like it would be a massive loss for us to lose bear hunting with hounds. Um it go ahead, Mark, Yes, So, so I want to bring up a tough question around this issue, not hunting with dogs in particular. But but this is the thing I strug with thinking about. There's there's two there's two different angles on this that I've heard taken. And I'm not saying I endorse this. I'm I'm acting a little bit as a devil's advocate here to try to help you and I and anyone listening to better to better formulate how we can think about this and speak about this. There's one idea which is kind of the stone wall strategy, which is essentially what I think you're advocating for here, which is, there's no more to give. If we give any more, we're poking more more holes in the damn, the dam will come down if we give anymore. UM. There's another angle that some people would promote, which would be to protect the greater whole, sacrifice, sacrificial lambs are necessary. Let me let me expand on that a little bit. Let's let's let's say that there's there's a case that some people might make, which is that hunting for food is a sustainable, supported, approved thing today and likely in the future. Polling has shown that etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. UM, And whether we like it or not, a tremendous amount of what we do as hunters is a privilege that is only granted to us as long as the general public supports of it. Because we've seen that very quickly, I public support swings the other way, legislation can get it rammed through and can change that fast. So one might say, the most important thing we can do to preserve the larger whole of hunting is to make sure that we don't lose the PR battle. If we lose the PR battle, we can lose hunting in a day. Stick with me here. So with this line of thinking, and again I want to make it clear, this is not what I'm personally advocating. I'm simply trying to help. What could be said is that if we want to protect the future of hunting in general and hunting for food in general, we cannot stand up for something that is far outside of that because it is antithetical to the larger things. So an example I saw on social media recently was that someone posted this is a hunter posted about uh, some film that was coming out recently that was examining predator hunting competitions and how you know, hundreds and hundreds or thousands of thousands of coyotes and predators and different things like that were being killed for sport competition, thrown into dumpsters, etcetera, etcetera, And there was a lot of negative optics around this, and there was a lot of people saying, man, that does not look good for hunting. That is a bad look. And if the general public sees something like this, they're really quickly going to say, Man, if that's what hunting is about, I can't support that. And if that's the case, it leads to bigger and big your chunks of the hunting world being crossed off the list for that reason. So this this kind of goes back to something that our mutual friends Steve has talked about, which is, Hey, we're all on the same boat. Let's be supportive of each other. But hey, if you're blowing holes in the boat, then we've got an issue. If you're gonna sink the boat, then we've got an issue. So how do we reconcile those things? Clay, Like, what do you think about that? Because because I well a lot of like questions around this too. Yeah, yeah, well and I do too. And I love that you brought this up, because this is a real thing that we've got to deal with and think about. And first of all, if if if we could just make a deal, like if we could just sit down with the top level leaders that would govern all of the anti hunting movement for the next fifty years. And we can say, tell you what, We'll give you some of this fringe stuff, you just leave us alone on the other stuff. I just don't think you could do it. Uh. Number one, that's never gonna happen. Remember what kind of the scenario described about these these big groups being massively influenced by money, Like if they get rid of one thing, they're going after another. So that's just like an untrue premise that if we chopped this off, then the rest of it would be safe. So there's and somebody might disagree with me, Like there might be somebody that would say, well, but that's not true. And I would just say, show me where that's not been true. Show me where there is an anti hunting group that says, tell you what, boys, we like you guys, we want to play fair. You give us that and it will just leave you alone. That just doesn't happen. So I agree with that, and and starm to jump in here. I just want to insert one more thought because I want to challenge these ideas. And I'm not challenging the person, but I want challenges ideas just because like I need to solidify my thinking, and I think we all needed to make sure we've got a good way to think and talk about this stuff. So that's why I want to present these kind of conflicting these conflicts a little bit so we can all kind of understand it and think about it. Um. So, so let me throw another Devil's advocate thing in there, which is maybe like, we could never as you're saying, we could never satisfy the anti hunting groups, will never be able to satisfy that extreme fringe of this movement who is anti hunting. And I think most research shows that the actual anti hunting groups are really just, you know, a relatively small portion of the greater population, like people who are actively anti hunting five percent of the population or something like that. So the you might say that the bigger piece of the puzzle is not the anti hunting fringe, but it is the se in the middle or whatever that number is, this big chunk in the middle who are kind of like indifferent. It usually doesn't enter their sphere of influence. They never think about it. Uh. They're generally like if someone said, hey, are you okay with someone doing this? Depending on the situation, they'll say, oh, yeah, okay, or maybe they'll hear it like no, not so much. So it's more so like we we've kind of represent the fringe too. We represent five percent of the population that does hunt, and then there's this five percent of the populations like super anti hunting. And so one might say that rather than caring so much about that fringe five, really we should be thinking about how do we win over the middle seventy or the middle you know, ninety or whatever it is um And so in that case, you might say, we can never satisfy these other folks. Let's just try to satisfy that middle. Now, as I'm saying this, I could also see the argument to what I just said could be that because of the influence of the fringe anti hunters, they will keep fifting the baseline for the center. And if the baseline for that keep shifting because of the actions of the radical few, that then could lead to you know, issues. Uh. I don't know, Clay, Maybe I'm going too far down this rabbit hole, but it's I understand what you're saying, and you're very much so right, and that it's the people that don't care that will be the ones that decide. So really in many ways, it's a marketing battle. It's a marketing battle. Like they're telling their story, we're telling our story, and it's that interpret the story and make the decision. And your numbers are are the numbers that I have in my head to mark. I mean, like I don't I don't want to pay I don't want to give too much credit to the anti hunting groups, but I don't want to minimize them either, because you know, some people are like, it's not real, not anti hunting groups. You know, they're not really doing much, but they are in that they're influencing massive segments of people who didn't care. And you don't even have to radicalize people to win. Do you understand what I'm saying. I mean, like, so like there's these people that are like dedicating their lives to the anti hung Yeah, you're right, that's like five percent, like small, small numbers, but them just tipping over somebody who doesn't care in the direction of them is a massive win for them and a loss for us, you know, And I think easier, I think way easier. So I would say, like, if we're gonna if we're gonna say, there's their five percent versus our five percent, and then there's that in the middle whatever. Um, it's absolutely easier for the scales to be tipped in their favor because I think the story they're telling does resonate with more people that are divorced from hunting in the outside world. Um. Yeah, and this is not news. It's a one it's a one step sell. Yeah, yeah, you made that point. It's a one step sell for them, it's a ten steps sell for us because we've got to bring them on board with Well, actually, we aren't indiscriminately killing animals. Actually we use these animals in many different ways. Actually they're carefully managed. Actually we really care and support these things. Actually we pay for conservation. Actually we we we give back and bring family members and children into this thing, and we steward the landscape, and we steward that. That's a long complicated story to tell. They can simply be They could simply put a picture on Facebook and say, look at this murderer and what they did to ABC D f G, or look at this comment that was written here. These guys are bloodthirsty, nasty killers that are killing Simba or they're killing Beluga the bear or whatever it is, and very quickly you can switch people to the other camp at least for that day or that week, or that petition um or that ballot measure um so. And it's tough. It's very tough. It's very tough. And and I want to say something that I heard Shane Mahoney say, and I want to give him credit for this, because he changed the way that I perceived this. You might have heard me talking and in in like the trend of the age and in anything as division is like them and us, you know, the bad guys the good guys, this worldview versus that worldview. And unfortunately in this scenario in there's some places where that's just unavoidable. Like we there are two worldviews that are colliding here, and that is just the nuts and bolts of the situation. But what what I've heard Shane Mahoney say is that like, we're not we're not adversarial against the people that don't understand, because those are the people that we're trying to give a good picture of what we do and an understand of what we do. And I said it many times, it's like I want to have empathy towards people that just don't understand their lifestyle. Like, I mean, there's plenty of people that live in urban places or not even an urban place. There's people that live in my town here in Arkansas that don't understand modern hunting. And like, I'm not I can't be like mad at that person for that, you know, um, and and uh and and so like, I don't want people to interpret what I'm saying as like a point of a point of division us in them. Like, really, the way we need to look at it is, Hey, we have a lifestyle that we believe is is noble, is valuable, is worth sustaining. Uh, it's misunderstood, and it's in and we've made mistakes in the past. But it's our job to represent our lifestyle in modern times in the most noble, honorable way that we can with the intent of showing the world a true picture of who we are. And um, that does involve some direct confrontation at times. And we'll talk about like later some specific things that that we can do that are going to help that part of it. Um. But you know, that's just the thought I had, Mark, because I I don't I don't really I don't like confrontation. Man, I mean, like I didn't like just wake up one day and decided to start saying this stuff. I don't know what I mean. I don't believe you because I saw you. You posted a video on Instagram the other day where you were directly challenging Steve Ronnella on how shitty his crow call sounded. So you, my friend, are glutton for conflict. If you're willing to debate on crow calls. If that is true, then I maybe it's true, Mark, maybe it's true. But I would rather just get along with everybody. I would rather step or now that just listen to me and blow the crow call the right way, and then all this would have been over. You know what I'm saying, But it doesn't matter to get him to gobble. I digress, digress, But no, I know what you mean, and I'm I'm right there with you in the same boat. But it's it's this, it's it's a weird situation that I find us in because you're right, like we we we want to bridge gaps. We want to build a coalition of support, we want to support others within this community of hunting. At the same time, we have to win the pr battle and that's where I feel like the real challenges lie at least one of what that's ee, the two sets of challenges. One set of challenges is simply guarding the gate. The other challenges winning the pr fight, and we gotta fair out of way to do both at the same time. And that is the rub well, and that brings up a great point. I'm glad you brought up this this wildlife killing contest thing, because boy, that's a hard one. Uh. I don't like wildlife killing contests. I'm mean honestly, like you know, I mean, I I there's and and I don't want to I don't know all the details, but I can tell you that's not a great representation of the whole model of North American hunting. At the same time, what those guys are doing, I mean they're they're not there's not much harm. There's a lot of good being done inside of sending out predators. And I know the science that it doesn't always help you know, the game, animals and all the different things. Um So in some ways, I'm like, yeah, while life killing contest is different than what we're talking about, But at the same time, if you give them that, they're gonna just come after something else. So I'm torn on that Mark, and I'm openly it's because when I saw that stuff coming from a hunter, I thought, man, this is not good. I mean like like I don't I I can't get behind that film. And I'm I'm kind of making myself vulnerable here, but like, you're not gonna see me promoting that film at the same time, I see what they're saying. I mean, uh, and that is one little caveat that is very it's its own little animal, you know, contest. Uh and uh, it's very different than predator hunting. Like the problem with supporting that is that then you kind of fall into this camp of this idea that you support. You know, you don't support predator hunting, which is tough. Here. Here's something about um these things, Mark, is that well, you you talked about people, there's wide support, wide public support for hunting as a as a as a food source. You know, if we're hunting because we're gonna eat the food, then it's totally okay. That's where a lot of these things. There's very few animals that we kill that we can't eat in the meat isn't great. And if we're talking about the two big predators that most people are talking about, mountain lions and bears. I mean, this is just totally a pr thing. I mean, like mountain lion and bear meat is incredible. And that's what I've said as publisher of Bear Hunting magazine, and I said it publicly recently. A big part of the future of bear hunting will be determined by how well that we number one utilize our bear meat as hunters and number two tell people about that. Like, I mean, the bear meat is incredible meat. Um. And like the idea that killing a deer it's more noble than killing a bear because you don't use the meat is just not It's just not true. Um. There was a there was a gap in our history when just public perception of bear meat went down, you know, just like all kinds of things kind of ebb and flow. And now we're bringing it back and we're saying, hey, bear meat is actually an incredible food source, incredible meat. Um. We're killing bears to eat them, too, uise their fat, to utilize their their hides. We actually use more of a bear than any other game animal in North America. And I would I really believe that's true. I mean, I would say of bears that are killed, their hides are tanned. And I could ask you Mark, and and I'm not trying to set you up. I'm a white tail hunter too. I mean, how many tan deer hides do you have in your house? I mean, you know, probably not very many. Yeah, And and that's not you see my point? We could use a lot of a bear. Um. And that food thing is important, it's important, and I think the well we we've got to have people that have a robust understanding of the North American model that predator hunting is important for its own reasons. And some of those reasons aren't food. Like if we're talking about coyotes, if we're talking about raccoons, um, if we're talking about and in all these things you could eat, but we're more hunting these animals for management purposes. Um. But food is a big part of it. It's a big part of it, and we've got to do a better job. And that's what meat Eater has done so good at, been so good at is telling the story of the food aspect of of hunting. So this story side of things is critical, I mean, it is It is a big part of the PR battle, who's who's sharing their story more clearly and effectively, because that's what life is. It's it's a bunch of people all over the place. We're all telling our own stories about what we do or what we want, or what we think the world should be like. And usually the way the world goes is in the direction of whichever story is more compelling, more clear, uh is truer about what it actually represents than the other than the other side. And so if we want my my hypothesis here is that if we want to be able to guard the gate, so keep up this, keep the damn up while also winning the PR fight. I think we we need to fine tune on our storytelling around this. And I don't mean fictional stories. I mean like talking about and showcasing and representing ourselves and what we're doing. Um in particular, maybe as you describe like there is a gap I think for some folks to understand what's the story for predator hunting. If you're not going to eat a wolf or a coyote, You're not gonna eat a coon your your shot out of the tree, or a beaver that you trapped or something like that. You're someone who has had to think about this and talk about this. Can you tell can you? Can you share with us the story you would share with someone about that. And I'm asking this because there might be a new hunter listening right now, someone who's gotten into deer hunting, and they say, Hey, I'm willing to give this thing a shot. I'm willing to feed my family with a deer. That sounds like something to get behind. But they see someone talking about shooting a wolf, where they see somebody talking about trapping a beaver or something like ah, that just feels like if you're not gonnating, I don't get it. Um, can you can you tell that story for folks? Well, the first piece in this right, this phrase right here mark ought to be on the lips of every North American hunter, all eleven point five million of us, is that one of the pillars in the North American Wildlife Conservation is non frivolous use of wildlife. Okay, so everything we do fits into everything we do that's legal, fits into this idea that we do not kill wildlife just for fun. So okay, if we took that pillar, we would say nine seven of that pillar is fulfilled by us eating the meat of the animal that we harvest, whether it's an elk, whether it's a deer, whether it's a bear, whether it's a turkey, whether it's a squirrel, whether it's a rabbit, pheasant. Like non frivolous use means we're gonna we're gonna harvest this animal, and we're gonna eat it. But there are other reasons to kill an animal that have very productive outcomes for everything involved that do not prioritize the eating of the meat of that animal. And these would be fur baring animals in particular. Um, you know, we're just not and I'm trying to you know, Well, here's the thing about meat too. There's no meat of any animal in North America that you can't eat. I mean, there might be a poisonous frog or something. I mean like, but like, you can eat a coon, you can need a coyote, you can eat a wolf, you can eat this, you could eat that. Like, it's not you're not gonna be poisoned by it. But the the reason for the killing that animal, that may not be the number one reason you do it. Like, for instance, let's talk about raccoons, which i'm i'm I love to coon hunt, love it. Um. Coons are considered messo predators, mid sized predators. At one time on the landscape here in Arkansas and all over the country. Um, there were there were gray wolves here, there were mountain lions here, you know, pre European settlement and through some of European settlement, and those animals were removed, not not necessarily even by hunters, but by society and by civilization, encroachment of civilization, taken away of habitat, and by people just saying we don't want them here. So that's not can't be all on hunters. That's a lot of habitat related issues and whatnot. But regardless, they're no longer here for the most part. Well, the mid sized predators, the meso predators have significantly increased. And this isn't anecdotal, this is like research based. There are I think three hundred million raccoons in this country, which is far more than there were or your pre European settlement, and so raccoons need to be managed. And if the only reason, I mean, we we are doing nothing but good things for the environment by taking raccoons out of that population. For many reasons I could go into, which is another rabbit hole. And number one, those animals are gonna die from distemper when they get overpopulated, which constantly happens research based coon populations get overinflated. Uh, Distemper runs through the herd, knocks some way down, coons get hit on the road. Coons, you know this. These animals are gonna die. They don't live forever. So a hunter going out harvesting a coon, taking his hide, eating some of the meat occasionally, to me, it's like massive wind non in it. And it fits into that three percent you know I said of the non frivolous use is fulfilled by eating the meat. There's just three non frivolous use of that coon means you're taking its hide, and it means that you're doing it with management goals in mind. Um So, Mark, is that does that satisfy you? Or I could go I could probably continue. No, it's it's a great it's a great example. And I think you said something there that I think is is really important, which is which actually just slipped my mind, which is I literally just had a very strange brain deletion of what I wanted to say. But but oh, maybe you were mesmerized about the coon stories down there with clay go coon hunting. What I think I'm trying to say is that is that an important thing to note is that it's it's non frivolous. And then, oh, I know, I know what I'm trying to stay here. It's a simple fact, but it's it's it changes the whole paradigm when you simply state these things are going to die. Everything dies. There's no life that extends in perpetuity. There's no raccoon that's gonna live forever except for that bloodthirsty hunter. No, these animals, they they live and die just like we do, and they are going to have deaths that are much shorter. Some we much longer lived lives, some we much shorter. That's than the nature of nature and the fact that we can go in there on occasion with non frivolous intentions and and and take some of that in a managed fashion. I think that that is there's just some simple beauty in the fact that in many cases it's food related. If not, it is still being done for some kind of use. And oh, by the way, it's gonna happen regardless of whether we're involved in or not. If the hunter doesn't do it, it's still going to happen. Why not be participatory and also use something of this too. I think in that way there's there's a simple defense there, you know. And that's a great point. And and you know, some people could get hung up on well, you know, what about the what about the coon that you shot? Like, did it go through trauma? Did it? Man? All animals are gonna die in being killed at the hands of a hunter nine percent of the time is gonna be much quicker, faster, ethical, more humane than the way that nature is going to take that animal out. I mean, it's just true. And it's kind of like one of those blunt facts that like a big fish, cold dead fish slapping somebody in the face. You don't you don't like to pull it out very often because it's kind of crap. It's almost crashed to say it. Like, but man, you see a bear, that bear will is guaranteed to die a pretty non ceremonial, brutal death. And that's in that cold, wet fish of a fact is increasingly hidden under the covers by society, especially for folks that that live far away from this stuff. The folks that live in a city that aren't engaged in the natural world as many of us are and see it. I think that's one of the best things about hunting is it opens your eyes to the reality of life and death, and I think it it makes us understand and appreciate and respect so many things more because of that. UM. I don't blame people who don't have that insight. I don't I don't look at them in disgust because they don't understand. I'm not even gonna be mad at them for not understanding it, because maybe they just haven't had the opportunity to see these things think about these things other than something they saw on TV or whatever. So it's it's really easy for someone who's never been exposed to the stuff to think that every animal out there is Simba and Mufasa and Raffiki and all these critters that my son's watching on the Lion King, and it is heartbreaking when Mufasa dies and I get that, and my son cries, and I probably cried when I was eight years old, and I can see why. When we've personified an anthropomorphized animals so much in media that it would feel like an individual is being tragically removed from Earth. But this stuff is the reality of the natural world, and that story is something that we got to be really good at telling. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, I mean the whole the story of mankind acquiring wild protein for sustenance for their families is his old It's it's the oldest story. I mean, it really is. And in man has found ways to memorialize the hunt forever. I mean, going all the way back to the first art that was created by humans was typically was created around hunting. And you know, and this is kind of getting romantic, and I'm okay with that mark because I'm a romantic. But like, man, I go out here with my plot hounds and we tree a coon out in the mountains and kill it. Take it. Man. Ah, I'll rub my hands on the on that hide and and and thank god. I mean, and I'm not showboating here. I'm serious. If I'm when I'm by myself, I just even do that. I'm just like, man, this is an incredible thing. And I think about the nobility. And again, this is romantic, but I'm okay with it. You know, I believe that's a more noble death than that animal dying of distemper in a hole in a tree. Um, I I just do. And you know what about point oh o? One per cent of the coon population is going to be harvested by a coon hunter. I mean, like most of them are gonna die in another way. And uh so for somebody to come and say that that's not okay for me to do that, it's just there's just no there's just really no baseline other than like a false, hyper emotional, anthropomorphic argument that just doesn't fall in line with the last gazillion years of human history. I mean, because you know, this argument, we can take it way back. But but the further we go back that we're complicated, it gets, but even the more clear it gets, you know. And I think what we've the message that we've got to show people is that we're the good guys that love wildlife. Man. I mean, if you would, and I see it in you, I see it in massively throughout the hunting community, is that we love these animals. And I'm careful to the way I use the word love there, you know, but like truly we value deeply, you deeply respect these animals. And it is our goal to utilize the while the commodities of these animals in the most honorable way possible. And uh oh man, we could just go round and round. But really, good guy, you know, I agree, But I will I will throw another thing out there, which might sound a little radical. I love it, can't wait, Mark, But in some ways, and this is this is not there might there's I'm sure there are exceptions to this. But I can empathize with I imagine a number of the people on the other side of this issue, because I think they, in their own way, they love animals, they care about wildlife, they care about wild places, and I empathize with them on that. I do too. I care about animals. I love animals and wildlife and wild places. They're come going at it from a just totally different perspective and from a different set of experiences, so they understand it in a different way. And so I say that in that it's kind of on me in each one of us two Maybe that's not what I want to try to say here. I think it's not productive to look at these other people who might challenge us on hunting as the bad guys, as advert as adversaries. Now of course, like in some cases that they are. But at the same time, sometimes these are people that really like wildlife, they really like animals, and they want to make sure wildlife's out there, and they want to make sure that there's thriving populations, all the same things I want. So it might be part of me wants to say, these guys are assholes and they're driving me nuts, and I'm sick and tired of these crazy emotional appeals they're making and the stuff they put out there that's you know, they're they're misrepresenting us, or they're twisting what we're doing, or yeada, YadA, YadA. It would be really easy to get angry and look at these people as they're the bad guys. They're the bad guys. But is that productive or would the more productive thing be to say, you know what, the majority of you folks out there actually see a lot of the same things the same way as I do. I want more, I want healthy populations of animals, I want healthy ecosystems. I want a B C D. Maybe rather than calling you an asshole, maybe I could just call you to the table and say, hey, let's talk about this. Maybe maybe you're not a jackass. Maybe I'm not a jackass. Maybe we both have more in common than we realize. Let's talk. I think that if, if, if we can do that more often, maybe they can do that more often. Now, again, there's exceptions to all of this. I'm not saying there's not some real turds out there floating in the punch bowl? Is my friend Steven until it would say, but but maybe maybe if we look at it that way a little bit more often will have more positive direction too. I don't know. These are all the things that pop in my head when I think about this stuff, But I think that's one piece of the puzzle too well. And I think that's what I was trying to communicate when I was talking about Shane Mahoney's comment about these most of these people aren't our enemies. Um. You know, there's there's some radicalized people that would directly be you know, would directly be, but there's a lot that aren't. There's a lot that I have the same ideas as us. And what you just said is a can of worms, Mark because the climate of is deep polarization and a deepenability to give any compromise because we're fearful that any compromise will lead to a snowball effect of something really negative happening. And like you, you might hear me talking about guard at the Gate and you say, well, Clay, you're you're saying no compromise, And in many ways I am. But I'm also saying that you know that we need to do what you just said, which is which is build alliances with like minded people that want to have our goals and try to tell our story to them, not to convince them to become us, but just to convince them that we're on the same side as them. Um. And that's that's what some of these conservation groups are doing. And there's there's just like in a battle, and and not to use a violent example, but you know, there's different strategies for for winning, you know. And sometimes we have to be real direct and put our foot in the sand. Other times there is a place to. There is a place to. And I guess I'm not saying compromise. I'm just saying tell our story and say, hey, we're after the same things. We're really after the same things. I think that that there's those two pieces of puzzle. There's this this story this pr and that's where maybe not compromises the right word, but it's it's it's just being open to talking about stuff. It's just sitting down at the same table. We might we might still disagree, but let's not be disagreeable. How about that. Let's at least sit down the table and talk about this stuff and make sure you clearly understand what I'm talking about. And hey, I'll listen to you. I might disagree with you on it, I might still say nope, this is the line the sand, but I'll hear you out. And then hopefully, if you know, if we take the initiative there and are willing to put a hand across the aisland and say hey, let's talk, let's listen, you know, you're more apt to get similar treatment coming back. So so I see that as part of the pie. And then the second pieces though exactly what you're talking about, which is stand strong at the gate though, and and I want to We've spent a lot of time about this, like weird soupy muddy mixture of how we talk about this, how we think about this, how do we defend what we do in certain ways? How do we tell that story? And like you said, sometimes that gets from antics. Sometimes this gets like deep. Um, maybe no one's listening anymore, Clay, I don't know. It might just be just you and me money. But if there's anyone else still listening, I do want to get in some brass tacks, some actual actionable things we can do to guard the gate to make sure that there isn't the shifting baseline, to make sure that they can't keep chipping away at things. Um and and so I want to ask you to two things. Number one, i'd love if you think this is relevant to your action items. I'd love to explore the example of what just happened in California. And Then number two, I'd love to hear your key takeaways for how we can guard the gate better. What kind of action we can take to make sure this thing isn't eroded slowly at Bye Bay by day by day. Um, yeah, I think, uh, I think maybe a good way to do it, Mark is I've got five action points here that maybe we could just run through pretty quick, and then we could end on the California thing because it was a good example of one part of the act the engagement points. Does that sound good to you? Okay. So a core idea inside of Guard the Gate is is unity inside the hunting community. So one of the action points is that as hunters, I think it's very important that we don't talk negatively about other types of legal hunting. It's just that simple. If it's true that we've got nothing left to give, then the bow hunter in Wisconsin or Arkansas doesn't need to he he. I mean you can disagree, but like publicly talking about negatively about other forms of legal hunting, I just think degradates the whole system. Like, just have empathy towards other people and realize that yeah, trapping, uh, bare hunt with hounds, squirrel hunting with dogs, uh, pheasant hunting like that other thing is somebody's passion that it has a whole lot of things that are similar to you, slightly different, but a whole lot that is similar. And so just take one for the team. Just take one for the team. And like, I'm not gonna talk negatively about crossbow whitetail hunters. You know, I don't want to shoot to deal with the crossbow. Um. I mean whatever, I am going to promote that, I'm gonna love it when somebody does it. I'm not secretly gonna tell my kids that it's less of a thing to kill a deer with a crossbow than it's like, because that happens all the time. Can I I'm gonna go ahead. I am just being uh the challenger today. I'm sorry, but I but I I feel like you're someone who I can have this conversation with and you can we can like hash out the things that I have to hash out with myself when I'm going on my runs in the morning. It's so much more fun to actually have a real us and talked about this. Is there any line over which you would change your opinion on that? So, is there anything that you would could be Is there any way you could be convinced otherwise or is there some lyne in the sand that if someone crossed, is it simply is it legal versus illegal? Or is there anything else that would change your stance on that? I think I think from a high level statement, I would say that the chaff has been blown away from the North American hunting. We found a model that works, and so in anything that is illegal, I would stand behind. Like that's my general statement. Um, does that mean that we're not going to continue to fine tune things a little bit probably, but those things are gonna be the outliers. I would say, Mark, Um, and I grew up. Man, I'm I'm talking. You're talking to somebody that was deeply indoctrinated as a white tail bow hunter. I mean, my dad didn't even own a deer rifle. Uh my dad, God love him, and so do I. He talked very negatively about crossbows, and he would today if he were here. Uh, you know, Like so I just see that as like, man, we can't do that anymore. It's like, it's okay if we got used the crossbow and I I and we could get into all the arguments of you know, management and liberalizing seasons and stuff. And I think we're just in a new place where we gotta think about it different. And I'm not saying crossbows are archery equipment, you know, like maybe we need different seasons. Like that's that's the can of worms. I'm not trying to get into. But is that clear Mark what I just said? Yeah, Yeah, it is. Um. I mean it goes back to one of the things we talked about earlier, which is the all in the same boat versus punching holes in the boat. So I think there's an argument that some people might make, not with crossbows, but there might be something else where they could say, well, this thing is technically legal, but it's uh. Some might argue this thing is punching holes in the boat. So we've already kind of explored that we don't need to dive back into it. But but I agree with what you're saying is that we really need to in general, be together on this stuff, band together on this stuff, and and make sure that we where I think we can challenge each other. How about this, Let's all be unified and stick up for each other and and not talk negatively about each other. But I would argue there's room for us to challenge each other on how we tell our stories. So in that there's certain things like hey, maybe it's maybe you don't call someone up publicly about this thing, but hey, buddy, uh, did you think about how this might look to so and so or what this might impact to so and so so. So maybe there's room for those conversations. So still, we've got to police ourselves, Mark, and I've I've said that before in the bear hunting community. I've preached it to the Bear Hunting magazine people, is that the only way to really bring about social change is to is to talk to people like and particularly about social media stuff around uh bear hunting and stuff like, Yeah, you got to build a culture that like, it's not okay to do that, and that culture it's built by people confronting people. But I think if it's done in the right way, if the culture is right, then we all realize we're kind of on the same team, you know. And and so the general point number one is unity. And and absolutely it means that you're gonna have to kind of take one for the team. And that is a hard thing for humans to do. But I'm just I'm telling you, if we want this incredible lifestyle that we all live to persist, we're gonna have to take one for the team. It means that if I don't like Antler point restrictions, I can't call the guys that do want a p R s assholes, or I can't technicalities of that kind of law mark. And that's a good example. I mean, I'm talking about the more general, high level like is it okay to unt deer? Is it okay to use bait. Is it okay to you know, like getting into like management stuff like yeah, I mean we could challenge each other, but but I'm totally kidding. I'm a bar with you and that and that. Yes, like there's all these like there's so many different little things that people like to yell at each other about and complain on Facebook about and bash people about and all of it. You know, let's let's let's remember on the same team here. You might like to wear a different color shirt than I do on certain days, you might like do just a little bit differently, but come on, and the way I like what you said, We do have the right to to talk to people about the way they tell their story because everybody knows somebody that just does not portray the way we hunt in a good way. And and we do have to find ways to minimize that. But the main thing is that we we we replicate the good things, so you know, and some of these other points deal with these things, mark um. The the second point that I had here was engaged political activism at times when it's appropriate, and uh and and boy it's a tough one, but there will be times when you'll be called upond to sign a petition or do something that kind of got to go out of your way to to make your voice heard inside of this democratic society we live in that you may you just decide, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna take a stance on this, even if it doesn't affect me. And that's where we'll get into the California thing later, is that it was a bunch of people not from California that helped influence a potential bill in California. UM, So, at the right time and in the right way, engage political activism. But I don't even think that's the main thing. Mark um number three. And I'm gonna get to what I believe is the main thing. But so number three would be put your money where your mouth is and become lifelong members of organizations that are dedicated to truly engaging in these struggles in very productive ways. And there's a ton of them, and and and I have no affiliation with this group, but I I've vowed to say I think every hunter in North America ought to be a life member of the Sportsman's Alliance. Uh. They are an incredible group, UM and they are actively involved in fighting legislation. So like Clay nucom, we could get on social media and say, hey, that's bad, I don't like that. How much good that does? I don't know. These guys are dedicated. They know how political systems work, they know where to push the buttons, they know when to do things when not to do things. I mean, these guys are pros, and they work behind the scenes, and they're an incredible group. And there's a ton of them. I mean, you know, join a National Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountaine Elk Foundation, National Deer Alliance, I mean, like all these groups. Like So, my point is every single one of us ought to be enrolled and active paining members of at least two or three sportsmen's groups and not just joining for a year and forgetting about it, but just saying like, hey, I'm gonna dedicate. I'm just gonna this is just something I do. I just stay a member of this organization, support them financially. We gotta put our money where our mouth is. You ever thought about starting a bear hunting organization? Um, It's been brought up many many times, Mark, and I just don't I don't know that I'm the man for it. Uh, it would. Uh. I mean, yes, I have, but it's a it's a tough one and I and I'm not. I wonder why there isn't one yet there's not enough hunter Well, there there is, there is, there's Uh. The Western Bear Foundation is a great organization and they would be one that would be on my list of great organizations to be members of. UM. They're a little bit more Western focused, so it's not a national bear organizations. Man. There's some great state bear organizations. Michigan Bear Hunters. Man, if you're not even if you're not in Michigan, you should be a member of those guys. I like that group, Michigan Bear Hunters, Wisconsin Bear Hunters. UM. A lot to be learned from the way they run their organizations and what they do. Really smart guys, really unified organized UM. And that's a whole another podcast. But but joined sportsman's groups. I mean, that's the simple thing. So Number one market is unity. Unity inside the hunting community. Don't talk bad about somebody just because you don't like the way they do something. Just take one for the team. Be a big boy, pull your pants up and just like be like, hey, this guy, I probably have a ton in common with this guy except for this one little disagreement. Unity Number two. Engage political activism when called upon. Number three. Join sportsman's groups that represent what you want, and man, shameless plug for Sportsman's Alliance. Everybody ought to be a member of sports Sportsman's Alliance. And then, man, here here's the biggest one. Mark, here's the biggest one. And it's it's one that people might go, what, But man, we got to have a massive dose of self introspection. Like if I am proclaiming that we need to, you know, clean up the hunting community and and clarify our narrative and you know, improve our public perception, those are external things that reflect something internal. And I have to make sure that Clay Nukem is living the values behind closed doors that I'm proclaiming, because there's one thing that human nature will never refute, and that is authenticity. Man, everybody and their brother can tell when somebody is a fake, when somebody is a liar, when somebody is not representing what they say they are. And we have to clean the inside of the cup first to make the outside clean. So I I challenge everybody, and I challenge myself that if Clay Newcomb talks about the utilization of bear meat and how we've got to do better at telling the world that we use our bear meat. Man, I got to use my bear meat. I've got to. I've got to really value it. I've got to, you know. And I've not done everything perfect at all. Like if I talk about adherence to game laws and how game laws are the salvation of North American wildlife, and by god, I better obey the game lass and I better make sure that anybody that's around me is obeying the game laws. Um, you know, clean the inside of the cup. If we want hunters to be if we're saying that this lifestyle is worth preserving for whatever reason, then we better be walking the walk. And man, I don't say that from like a preachy place. I say that truly from a place of I want to look at my life and find the places where my proclamation does not line up with my my actual activity, and there are places. And clean the inside of the cup, because if hunters, if we're saying we're the good guys, we've really got to be the good guys. Amen. Amen to that. Yeah, So that's that's important. And then the fifth thing I have down here, Mark, is to become a herald. A herald would be you know, like a like a mouthpiece. And uh yeah, and and and I think a lot of these ideas of what we've talked about, like like like the science behind the North American wild of wild life conservation, uh, talking about using the commodities of wildlife. Talking about the way that we you know, healthy organic meat that's way more environmentally sustainable than going to the grocery store and buying a beefsteak. Like some of these things just we just need to practice. Like some people hear us talk, they hear you talk about white tail hunting, and they go, man, how does the guy's brilliant? He can that? I bet they are. I know they are. It's because you you talk about it every day. Mark. I mean like it didn't just come naturally. I mean there was some natural but you see what I'm saying, Like I know, my the narratives that I now very clearly can express ten years ago I couldn't. And it's come by practice, It's come by thinking about it. And and and and this is true in every sector of our lives, is that there was a time for like white tail hunting. There was a time when nobody knew anything about white to hunting in the early eighties, Like actual scientific knowledge of how to hunt why til deer was like relatively small. Today, my son who's fifteen years old and one probably knows more about white tail biology than like a pretty good bow hunter did in the nineteen seventies. I'm not saying how to kill one, but just like if you were to take a test and say, when is the peak of the white tail rut? What does white tail gestation? What do antlers need to grow? What you know? Yauda, YadA ya. The narrative got stronger as people were educated. That's what we need, Like, we just need people that understand bear hunting. They understand why we baited bears, They understand why we run hounds, they understand why we need predator management, they understand meso predators. They understand, Um, you know just that of course we eat bear. We actually ulize that more than almost any other big game animal we take. So the narrative has got to get stronger. And the more people here people talk, the more it's gonna be readily on people's tongues. Man, all the time, I mean and you and I being an outdoor media we probably get it more. But like you know, very often, very often people inside of our circle of friends who are not hunters. And there's lots of them that, you know, parents of kids that my kids go to school with. You know, I just have these little I talked to them, you know, Um, and I'm pretty intentional about the way that I portray what we do because I want them to understand and uh so to become a herald. Um, we we've got to We've got to tell our story, you know. And and that goes that's not just outdoor media people. That's the guy that will never be on outdoor media, but just his circle of friends, his influence. He is portraying a positive light. You know, there was a time Mark and boy, I'm getting romantic deep romanticism here, but there was a time. There was a time when hunters were known, there were men of renown in their communities. I mean, like I talked with the lead historian of the Ozarks named Brooks Blevin's I love the guy, and um, you know, bear hunters were the rock stars of the eight hundreds. They truly were like they were the sports stars. They were like the they were the celebrities because you know, there were no there were no sports teams, there was no social media. These guys were known as leaders in their communities because of their hunting prowess. And there's no real direct correlation here, but I'm just saying sometimes I think when people think of hunters, they just think of these you know, they think of a really negative thing. I think we could change that, and I think that's what what we're on track to do with just I mean, there's not a whole lot of sectors of society that are really well educated. Like what if you could just pick a guy out of the crowd that had a hunting license and he was just full of information, just full of just like man North American modle of wildlife conservator and doubt a douta dout it, you know, just like like like like we just permeated because we're so passionate about this, because this this lifestyle that we lead is so essential to the human existence, which it is, like I believe that hunting is. I mean, it's just it's just so it's such a primitive thing. It's not like playing tennis. I'm sorry, it's not. Uh, it's it's such a primitive human thing that is affected so much of our deep human history. Man, I want to fight for this thing. When I say fight, I mean I want to be educated. I want to see this last I want to see this persist. I want people to be spokesman and representatives of hunting in an honorable way. That's like, deeply, deeply valuable to me. And I think we can do it. I think we can do it. Like there's a lot of people that would have a pretty grim look at hunting man, not I think we're I think we're on the an upward trajectory and we gotta be we gotta be smarter, we gotta be wiser, we gotta be more unified, and we can do it. I think we can do it. Mark, I'm right there with you, and I think if we can follow this, uh, this roadmap you you spelled out for us, I think that's the way to do it. I Uh, I'm glad we're able to have this conversation. This is it's one of those things that at the surface seems simple, but if you dig down, it becomes much more complicated. As I think we've seen throughout this conversation, as we dove into these different things and conflicting opinions and different ways to look at stuff, and and all that's to say that we have to be educated, and we have to practice both thinking and talking about these things and walking the walk. And Uh, if if we do that, and if we can spread that this game play in, I think, like you just said, the future is bright. So Uh, I wanted to to spend a lot of time exploring the California example. We're running not time, so we can't. But I'm not I'm not upset about that because we've we've we've covered plenty of really good stuff. Can you give me, like the the two minute rundown of California because I think I think it ends us in a place of of positivity. It shows us an example of how we can do these things and have a positive outcomes. Um, give me this victory story to wrap us up. So there was a senator in California that proposed an all out ban on California bear hunting, which is a fairly unprecedented thing. Uh. Most of the time these groups go after go after different parts of hunting, you know, like like for example, in Colorado, they outlawed hunting over bait and hunting with hounds, but you can still hunt. Ar's there this California, and California has done the same thing. At one time you could hunt hat with hounds. At one time you could bait. Now you can't. They that this was an all out band. It was portrayed as that's in trophy hunting in California. I can't believe in one that this still, this barbaric practice still exists. That was the way it was portrayed. The bill was proposed, it was called SP two five two, and because it was it was just proposed, so it wasn't actually in action, and and you know it wasn't like in front of the the legislators, but it was proclaimed that it would be. Well, the senator put up this put up this little picture on Instagram, and this guy I saw where he had like most of his posts marked that he would make on his Instagram might get between fifty and a hundred comments, like if you just looked back at his stuff. I think after about a twenty four hour period, he had twelve hundred comments on that one post, and about of them were hunters coming in and saying this bill is not based upon science. This is not a good bill for the state. This is not a good bill for bear hunting. And man, it was awesome. Like a few outdoor people that had influence came in and were the first to start making comments and then the world just flocked to that really did. And uh, within two days the guy withdrew the bill and I I speculate on what happened in that he had no idea that people outside of his jurisdiction, which in his jurisdiction, which was I think in the San Francisco area. Um, he felt like this was just gonna be a lob pitch, you know, to his base and they would be, oh yeah, Well he was met with stiff opposition and they dropped the bill and it you know, it was a small victory if we're being honest in some ways. In other ways, it was a big victory because we saw what would happen if the if the whole, if the whole of the hunting community united, which was great. There were guys on there saying, I'm not a bear hunter, but this is bad for bears. You know, people that never hunted California never will. So it was a great example of unification and uh, man, there's so many other things. That's the hard part. Since that time, mark my inboxes of of of other bad stuff happening across the country. And uh, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this one. And he dropped the bill drop. I think you missed one thing in your would map or in your action plan, and I think that is and maybe maybe you had this stuck inside of one of your five rules, but it was it could probably be talented into the being engaged. But it's staying informed. It's it's it's it's really easy for these things too, to just happen without most people knowing about it, unless you know someone who had a great, big following, you know, share that oh this is out there, and then all of a sudden it got attention and we're able to do something about it. But it is a little bit on each one of us individually too, as best as possible stay up on things going on. And maybe that's achieved by joining these different conservation organizations. Maybe that's achieved by just you know, reading through what's happening in your state every once in a while, or checking in with someone who does this for a living or whatever. It is. I don't know what the solution is there, but but it is a little bit on each of us to to try to stay educated on this too so you can become engaged when needed. Um. But yeah, man, this is this was a great example of the hunting community as a whole railing around something that maybe wouldn't impact a lot of those people directly immediately, but but we rallied around it and and we're able to squash it before balloons into something that all of a sudden had a momentum of its own in the other direction. So I think it's a I think it's a great example of what we can do when we when we do those things you talked about, and um, I just want to make sure we make a trend of that and not the opposite. So this has been great, Clay. I've I've really enjoyed this. Um. It makes me. It makes me just want to have you on the podcast every week to talk through the tough questions I have in my own mind and you can be my my sounding board as as I examined all the other questions. Um. But for people that want to stay up to date on the new stuff you've got coming down the line the podcast, all your other content, where should people be looking for that? Yeah, so you know, all my content right now is going to be on the metator dot com and stay tuned for very soon. I mean, I'm just gonna I've been saying very soon for a long time, Mark, but sometime, let's just say in the next two months. I think that's fair. You're gonna see a new podcast coming out from me either that I'm going to be uh, the host of. And it's gonna be really innovative podcast. Mark. Um, it's gonna be a ton of fun. It's gonna be different. I really think a broad base of people is gonna enjoy it. It's not about bear hunting, it's not about guarding the gate necessarily. I mean, there'll be components of it that will be but I think it's the kind of podcast that you'd want to kick on just even with your non hunting friends. Um. But it's it's and I just can't give too much away about it, but it's gonna be a documentary style podcast, kind of an efficient listen um and uh gonna really dive deep into some cool topics with cool people. And I'm very, very excited about it. Um. And then so my my other business, uh is Bear Hunting Magazine. So we we publish a print magazine, bi monthly magazine. Um. That is a good place to stay up with with with the bear hunting world tips and tactics. I mean, you know, we've been a print for twenty years and it's the only print bear hunting magazine in the world. And uh so that's that is another thing that I do aside from meat Eater. That's working with meat Eater. Um. But yeah, that's where they can find me. Mark, all right, perfect, Well h Clay, I just want to thank you for taking the time to uh indulge my questions and wanderings and ramblings, and uh this is a lot of fun my pleasure. Mark, thank you all right, that is a rap. Thank you for tuning in, Thanks for hearing us out, Thanks for thinking about and considering some of these issues and questions. Uh, let's all try to remember plays five steps towards a better future for hunting. I think he's on some great things here, and there's certainly more that we can all think about. Me too, as I try to figure out how I personally can you know, make a meaningful impact on this issue, and I think as a group together we can all do it. So that said, thank you for listening, Thanks for your attention. If you're out there scouting or shed hunting or working on habitat, I hope you're having a blast. Enjoy the great outdoors, enjoy your deer hunting pursuit. This is a day and good thing we've got. So with that said, thanks and stay wired to hunt.

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