00:00:00 Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, it's me Ben O'Brien's episode eighty three, coming to you from Bowls in Montana. We're sitting here and ten inches of snow, a foot of snow. Phil, What are we doing? Yep? Um, the snow came in last night. It has been very windy and cold. Yeah, you could feel. I think there's like a forty forty degree drop and that was just between the highs of the day. If you go from the high to the low, it was like mere sixties, like a sixty degree drop. We should be out hunting. It was nuts. We should be out hunting, um anyway, but we're not. We're podcasting, and so today it's a good show. We're gonna start by recapping the reaction to episode eighty two with Barry Kay Gilbert, the contentious interview. We'll talk through some of your questions and some of the things you guys wanted to know and and and pretty much end the Catharsis one, episode eighty two here today, then move on with our lives, and then we're gonna do our first ever not so sharp moment. It's a pretty good one. It's about a truck getting stuck and then another truck getting stuck and yet another truck getting stuck for that first truck, So you're gonna like that. And then we're gonna have our first ever what I'm calling Whiskey and Ethics portion of the show. And that's where we drink the brand new Mediator Bourbon whiskey and we talk about something ethically, some ethical connotation, some kind of ethical situation. And this one's gonna be gripping grins. You guys all know I feel strongly about those. So we're gonna drink a little whiskey. We're gonna get real deep on gripping grins. Look forward to that. But before we get to any of that stuff, we'rena talk about something it's very near and dear to my heart. It's called the Back forty. We bought a property in Michigan, if you haven't already heard, and we're doing a show about it. So if you go to the Meteor YouTube channel, you're gonna find the episodes. We've already launched episodes one and two. Episode three is coming next Monday, and then every two weeks after that until the end of the year, you'll have another episode in your YouTube feed. So go there watch it the meter YouTube channel. You can also go to the medeator dot com slash back forty and check it out. There's a lot of stuff there. You're chronicling our boy, Mark Kenyans journey on this Missigan property. I've I've been there a couple of times, gonna go there again. I'm working hard on the show with Mark to make it the best that can be, and we would very much appreciate if you watched it, So go and check it out on the YouTube's or on the mediator dot com. The only other thing to talk about today is the first light Catalyst sautshell system. Where will be wearing this in the tree stand. Mark and I have a rut hunt on the back forty coming up. We're gonna be wearing this in the tree stand. Um. It really is one of the best saft shell pants. You're gonna wear one of the best saft shell systems. They're silent, breathable insulating that will stretch and move with you. It's perfect for sitting in the tree stand. Again, the biggest thing there is silent. It's got an interior thirty seven and have fleece lining that works to optimize your body temperature. Um, while that brushed, durable exterior is ultra silent, it fends off moisture by sitting up in the tree. So go to first light dot com, check out the Catalyst soft shell system and let me know what you think. All right, that's it. That's all the things. Now onto the show, Episode eighty three. Let's go. I guess I grew up on an older road, a pedal to the meadows. I always did what I told until I found out that my brand new closed a game second hand from the rich kid's next door. And I grew up baths I it's I grew up me. There are a thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted to a real bad dream or being, and like I'm coming apart of it seems. But thank you Jack Daniels. Hey, everybody, welcome. We're here another episode of Hunt Cluck. This one is eight three. I'm here with Phil. Hey, Phil, how's going guys? I got a big announcement. WHOA yeah, I didn't tell you about this, Philka it's a big it's a big announcement. Phil is growing a mustache. That's true, it's right now. I would say, how many days have you been growing this mustache? Phil, you had a couple. I think it's been about two weeks. Yeah too, that's two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. Um, it's uh, it's not great. It doesn't look great. I'm doing it for a Halloween. It looks like you might have fallen in some dirt. Yes, it's a it's a much blonder than my hair on my head. Are you willing to give up your Halloween costume that? Oh yeah, I'll give away part of it myself. And Seth Morris the flip flop Flesher signs west on Instagram. We're doing a holiday and why and he already has a mustache. He does all the work for this. Yeah, but being nervous that you won't be able to uh like match up to his mustache. Yeah, definitely should be because he was he was out hunting. He was out shooting some meat eater uh television programming this past week and he got back and he didn't even notice it on my face yesterday. It does look just like this thing has been coming in for two weeks now, and uh, one of our producers it was like a seth he feels mustache. He's like what he had to come walk closer to me and be like, oh, yeah, there it is, um. But yeah, there's also gonna be a little twist with the Halleen costume that we're saving, all right to surprise. Do you know any good mustache nicknames? Like the kind of mustache? You mean a nickname for the actual mustache? Yeah, not like Larry the mustache what people call mustache. No, I don't, do you well, I mean I have I've heard of something. There's some good ones. Yeah, huh uh. There's some really good ones. I probably can't say. Yes. The one I like the most is Mr Tickles, Whiskers of course, Bristle, Batons, crumb Catcher, lip shadow grass, grand Cookie Duster, Nose Neighbor, soup strainer. I like nose Neighbor, flavor saver makes it makes it seem like a friend. I'm gonna go with Mr Tickles to your mustache. If anybody has a right into th HC at the mediator dot com help us name fills mustache. As we've actuately described, it's kind of like it's not fully developed. So I'm trying to I'm trying to display it to the least amount of people possible before Halloween. So so neether you're not gonna see it, I'm gonna ruin that, damn it. I'll get a picture of it. So anyway, right into th HC at the metior time, name fils mustache, and if you do something really good, I'll give you something really cool. I'm not gonna tell you what it is, but it will be something cool. So don't worry. After I shave it, you'll send the hairs and it will be a tiny envelope because there won't be much in there. Nope, all right, we gotta move on. But as much as I'd like to just think of names for your mustache, we gotta. We got we got stuff to get to. We've got business to take care of. Now we're coming off the heels. This has to be a lighthearted has to be and that there has to be whiskey involved because we're going to do our first got whiskey and ethics here the Hunting Collective. Well, we need to drink whiskey because we had a very tough couple of days here. We were I don't want to say we were basking in the glow of episode eighty two, we were more standing in its shadow. I feel but a lot of you, I will say more of you than I thought. I enjoy the conversation and thought it was well handled, So thank you for that. I think that was probably the overwhelming sentiment. Um. But there were a few things that people did not agree with, which I guess is my way to address um. But where are you where? Where's your head at? Phil? With what with the Barry K. Gilbert episode of The Hunt Neglectum? Well, I've been fortunate enough to be able to take a few steps back from it. After I mixed it and sent it out to you, I wiped my hands clean. But you've you're the one who's been getting all the emails and the the d m s, so a lot of them. So yeah, I have not seen any of those, any of the reaction besides the Instagram comments and stuff like that. But yeah, there's a lot. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on there. I think one of the major ones is that, uh, when we're when Barry and I were talking very generalized, hunters is all being say anti predator, not wanting to share the unglids that they eat with predators like grizzy bears and wolves and things like that. Now we all know that's wrong. Like, it's hard to generalize any group. Hunters are not a monolith. You cannot say all hunters think this, hunters do this. I mean, there certainly are cases and evidence of hunters shooting predators for fun, or shooting predators in a contest, or wanting to shoot predators to save the deer. There are examples of that too. There's also examples of campers who litter in DJs who play music too loud. That doesn't mean all DJs play their music too loud and all campers litter and so uh. Something that a couple of people had criticized me for was coming back with, Hey, all the hunters that I know don't feel that way about predators, And I'll just say it's true. I don't know any hunters that are anti predators because they want more deer round. Most of the hunters I hang around with, if if not all of them, believe in balancing an ecosystem, believing carring capacity, and believe in healthy populations of all wildlife. So that's where I'm at um and so in in the conversation, I did say I said that. I said, listen, I don't know any hunters who are anti predators. Now, a lot of people are saying, well, there's clearly hunters out there that I want to kill predators and and would like to see some predators wiped out of certain ecosystems. Yeah. Sure, I'm sure that the truth is somewhere in the middle ground. But the type of hunters that I'm around and then I talked to and then I want to highlight are not those type. It's the type of hunters who are looking for balance. So my my point of that that podcast was very much to just to combat kind of what I thought was a pretty gross generalization from from Barry Gilbert. So that's where that came from. But I think, um, there just was a lot and so at something we had a couple of people in my so like, just go to the Arizona Hunting Facebook page and and post a picture for kaya. You don't even need to say anything, just sit back and watch the hate flow in, you know. So things like that, those were examples of people saying that that I was wrong too kind of push back with that, with that with my my own generalization. So that's fine. That's that's probably a pretty decent critique. But in I would say Phil, in the situation we are in, getting a little offensive is probably just natural. Yeah, and he was. It was kind of funny because he definitely was generalizing all hunters, even though he denied it. UM. When you were like, I don't think all hunters, was like, well, I didn't say all hunters, and then he was I think I remember him asking you, like or kind of confronted, confronted you like, well, you would say most hunters, right, and you're like, no, No, I wouldn't know. I would not say most hunters. I would not. I think everyone could agree with that. Yeah, most hunters do not want most hunters do not want to kill all coyotes. Most do not some there's some, sure, some out there that see a picture of Kai and just wanted to be dead and don't think twice about UM, But that's not most hunters. Like I assume that most bear advocates don't blindly dismiss any any other opinions. UM. I would hope that they do not. So somewhere in the middle is the truth almost always, and I'm sure in this case that's what this was. UM. But like I say, most most everybody was very positive and I appreciate that. UM, a lot of people acting, would I have Barry Gilbert on again? What do you think? Phil? I was like, that's a horrible the answer I would say, no, Yeah, I would go with no people had asked me. I was like, man, I just can't say that. I was pretty unflinching. I don't think. I don't think another conversation would lead to anything productive. Yeah, and I don't. What I would say about about Barry is that obviously he's credential. I mean, he's a tenured professor at Utah State University. He's written books, he's given talks. I mean, he's a credential. Um what I would call, I guess an intellectual. But uh, as Phil said, he seemed pretty hardened to his points of view. So I mean, it's not that I'm gonna move him in one direction or the other. I think he's pretty pretty dead set on what he believes. UM. And the other point that a few folks brought up was that maybe he didn't understand what a podcast was. He thought he was just gonna come in here and I was gonna ask him some pad questions about book, and he was gonna tell his story and tell give him a hat. Yeah, give him a hat. That's the other thing, Phil, Why didn't we give him a hat? We should have just given him a damn hat. I had a hat out there, could have given him. Yeah, I just didn't give him a hat. Feel bad. I feel bad now. A lot of people wanted me to give him a hat. So maybe I'll find his ad. I got his address out there. I'll send him my posting it on it. Here you go, here's your hat. Here's your hat, man um. So anyway, we're gonna move on from that. A little bit of catharsis that was needed. But thanks for everybody right now. I just spend most of my day this week, like Tuesday and Wednesday after we launched that podcast, talking to you guys about it. So it's important to me to kind of have those dialogues. When something like this impacts as many people as it seems to have impacted, it's important to continue to talk about it, um, because I think this was less about bears and wildlife management and more just about how to talk to a person who don't agree with Yeah. I think that's probably what I would take more away from this and just knowing that, you know, be nice to everyone, like just be be If you have to concede some points, it's okay sometimes to say like, yeah, you could be right about that, but what about this? And that's the way to move a conversation forward, not to be so so hardened in your beliefs and so attached to your worldview that you can't move, and in any time anyone to ask you to move, you get angry. And that's that's the biggest things I could see truly believing in something after years of research and and gathering facts and coming to a conclusion. But it's the fact that he got so angry. Yeah, what about what you were saying? I could see you having us like a a debate in him just saying like, okay, well I disagree, and honestly, nothing you say is going to movie in any way, but thank you for presenting the points. Yeah, no, I I hear you. Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. And he was not hearing Like I've heard that before and I just have never valued that, but he was not hearing um, and I just don't know. It was a great example of of productive h two humans having a productive conversation, like a productive interaction, And so it was more about that to me than understand you understanding that you get in these situations. Man, you just have to and hopefully all you listening can take it back. Um, I had a couple, I had two counselors and one crisis negotiator right in and say that I would be a good counselor in another life. So you have something to fall back on. Thanks. Thanks for those folks that prote in and said that, Um, yeah, you think I'd be a good counselor. Phil, Yeah, can I start coming to you? You're gonna have office hours and I can just start start dropping by. I'm very distressed about my mustache, but yeah, you shouldn't be. It's been two weeks. And yeah, so you should probably just don't go out in public until it until it fully grows in great advice. Yeah, I know as a counselor doc. Yeah, anyway, I want I'm not I hate to pat my own back because that's what that was about at all, But it was. It's a cool exercise to put out a conversation like that and to see kind of what it stirs up in people because I think some of it stirs up like what's really the conversational wildlife management and carrying pascity, like how do we how do we have a productive version of that? And the other people is like how do we talk to somebody that is emotionally connected to what they believe and really can't see it? Because that that can happen when you get together with your family on a weekend and have dinner. That can happen at with a coworker. That can happen really anywhere. And so that's it's an important I don't want to know if it's all. It's an important skill to have to be able to kind of navigate those things because in our world there's a lot of those things. I would say, So, do you feel like that's good, Phil, it's a good feeling, good bow to put on it? All right, we're putting a bow on it. We'll leave it that behind. Certainly, if you didn't listen, go back and listen to episode eight two. Have you got this far with without knowing the context of what we're talking about? I apologize, but go back episode eighty two with Dr Barry Gilbert about bears now introducing the first ever not so sharp moment. Phil play the jingle Work Sharp, not so Sharp Moments Shop, so you don't have to wow, wow, that's the jingle gets in your head, it does, gets in your bloodstream. It's almost like objecting hairin that that thing. Yeah, I apologize. Yeah, thanks Phil for ruin. Could be people are gonna be sitting in their keyboards typing in an email. Work. We'll see how they're feeling after ten weeks. We get it, we know. Okay, So to recap, we've been asking you last couple of weeks here prior to episode eighty two about you're not so sharp moments and you're not so sharp moments are presented by Work Sharp. Thank you, Work Sharp. If you want to go to work sharp dot com and check out their wonderful products, you can do that. You need a sharp knife, goddamnit, just do always, no matter where you are. If you had a sharp knife, you can shave all fills, mustache and like two strokes, like three al right, I'll give it to you. Thank you, three strokes. Appreciate it. So we're gonna we're gonna give you the first ever not sharp moment, and this it comes from Elliott Bowling. Now Elliott is going to get a work sharp field sharpener. Congratulations, whoa you did it. You never thought that this idiotic moment would lead to anything, would lead to any benefit at all, but it did. If you could go back in time and tell yourself, wow, this was occurring, I'm gonna field Sharp's going to get your work sharp field sharpman or someday and some guy on a podcast is going to read my email. Hey. But anyway, thanks to everybody wrote in, we got a bunch more slots coming up for not just sharp moments to read in podcasts. So if you haven't sent in, please do. We got a bunch more of these field sharpenners to give out, a bunch more stories to tell. But right now we gotta tell you Elliott's story. So Philip, stop me if you have any questions, because this is a it's a doozy okay, And then I'm gonna ask that in post you put in lots of awesome sound effects. Depending on how much time I have, I will put in fil plenty of time. Yeah, you're right. What else are you working on? No? Nothing, nothing, this is yeah, it's just your show. People don't really know, there aren't any other podcasts in the men of your podcast nowhere, and we get paid like a lot per show. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like it's unbelievable about the money. It's crazy, and so we just focused just on this kind of silliness. All right, here we go this from Elliott. All right, let's let's take a moment to set the stage. So a few years back, my guys and I were freelance waterfowl hunting in Saskatchewan. Anyone who has done this nose it involves a ton of driving to scout for birds. A couple of days into this particular trip, our rental truck had some transmission issues. Luckily, the rental company brought us a new truck and we only lost about a half a day of hunting and scouting. But during this truck swap, put most of our gear back inside the house where we were staying boots, coats, waiters, gloves, et cetera. This turned into a major mistake as we resumed our scouting with a new truck that afternoon and our excitement hit the road. We basically left the house in leisure wear jeans, hoodies, sneakers. It's mistake number one. Mistake number one, just picture these gentlemen, all and leisure wear. I don't know what kind of like. I'm just thinking, like you thinking a smoking jacket, yeah, jacket, acid bast jeans, new balanced sneakers, and maybe like hoodies with the sleeves cut off, even maybe something like that. I mean, these guys like there in Canada, they're looking great. They're in Canada. Maybe a hockey jersey, you don't know, nobody knows, but they're looking good. About an hour into the scouting, in the middle of nowhere, we came across a dirt road that was extremely muddy and eventually had water across the entire road for about fifty yards. Of course, we decided to blast through it. That's mistake number two. Within seconds we were pulled off the road into a fairly deep ditch, as stuck as I've ever been in my entire life. Wow, that's getting dramatic. Will they live well, at least one person? Well, I think Elliott will because he could be the only one that Maybe Elliott is like the son of one of these guys. I never know, Maybe there's a twist it could be. So let me set the stage for the conclusion of this story. It's October, Saskatchewan, temperature probably thirty degrees spitting snow. Three in the af ter noon with about three hours of light left at most. Truck stuck in the middle of nowhere, three dudes dressed like idiots. He said that I didn't say, no cell signal and really no one to call if we could. We start walking. About an hour into the walking, we come across two young Canadian fellas who are off to school for they're out of school for the day so they're deer hunting. They admit to us right away that they don't have their driver's license, but they were super eager to pull us out. I think this was the most exciting thing that ever happened to them there in the middle. They live in the middle of ye it's a sketch one. There's nothing going on, like, holy sh it, dad, you won't you won't. So we took them up when their generous offer. We get back to our stuck truck, hook up the chain and give it a go. Within ten seconds they get stuck to oh oh no, but but no worries. They have a friend with a big lifted truck who will get us out that friend. After forty five minutes he arrives, and now it's now dark, and within minutes his truck is absolutely buried. Okay, so so far, how many vehicles do we have in each Three? Three trucks stuck? Okay, in the same spot. It's quite the collection. But that's okay, Phil, don't worry. Good because he has a friend who has never been stuck before. Okay that I I remember them saying something similar about the Titanic. Yeah, never been stuck. This guy unsinkable. About an hour later he comes and gets stuck. And then I like, how Elliott in his email put in parentheses, I'm not shooting you. This all happened, Just to make sure. At this point it sounds like he's making the show. No, this is not a Marx Brothers film. YEA long story short. A huge front end loader showed up around one am and pulled us all out. We pulled whatever cash we all had and paid him for his service. We made it home around two thirty am, soaked, muddy, half frozen. We sat at our table and drank a couple of beers, reflecting how dumb we were, but honestly and ended up being one of the most memorable nights of our lives. And we made some nice Canadian friends in the process. Hey buddy, uh yeah, but there's just something. There's something. It's a very funny image of all the bunch of trucks pulling up and getting getting stuck. And if I am good at arithmetic, that's four trucks stuck, all attached to each other. But don't worry. We got a friend. We got a guy. We got a guy from here. That's like if you had a baseball team, like we got a guy. I know, we had to lose a streak. We lost three games in a row, but we got a guy. Got hit a home run every swing. Got the guy, he comes in, he solves the problems. Well, thanks for writing in Elliott, and we're gonna get you work sharp field sharpener for all your anguish in Saskatchewan. And thanks to Canada. Yeah, big, big shout out to Canada. Shout out of Canada, Beautiful. We like you my home in Native Length, Oh Canada. We stand on guard for thee. That was beautiful. All right, that's a good way to let's hit that the work Sharp jingle one more time, film work Sharp, not to sharp moment, so you don't have getting out. They're definitely going to be sick of it. Yeah, I love it. I love it all right. Next week we're gonna do another not so sharp moments. So if you've got something that could beat Elliott's four trucks stuck in one muddy ditch, send it in. We want to hear it. Not too long, not too short, perfect length, do it perfect, do it perfect? All right. Now we're onto a little bit of meatator whiskey, a little bit of ethics. We're gonna talk about gripping grinds. Got some surprise guests. You're gonna like it. Enjoy. I guess I grew up on all the road. Hey, everybody, we're in the Metator studio. Did you hear this jingling? Because we're all drinking the whiskey. You know, it wasn't long ago in Montana you could um that you could not You couldn't drive drunk. You could drive drinking. Yeah, for a long time, for a long time, there's no speed limit. State limit was reasonable and prudent, and you couldn't drive drunk. You could have a drink, and it used to be fun to pick up someone at the airport with uh cocktail with ice in it. And I always think when I hear this noise, I think of like taking corners in a car, trying to have someone's cocktail already form at the airport, because when you're driving here, ice clinking in the glass. That's the voice of Steven Ronella, folks. And we also have Miles Nolte in the rooms. I also very much remember and fondly the days when I get picked up at the airport here and some would have a beer waiting for me in the cup holder for the right home road soda. It was really nice. I mean not to say that that culture has completely died here, it's just not legal anymore. Yeah, Yeah, they got after him. They the reason they wrestled the state into conformity was through highway funding, Federal highway funds. They threatened to take them away. Yeah, they'd like, well, you gotta we can't. We're not gonna give you the money unless you come in line on certain things. Yes, in the in the state of Louisiana, you'd still do a drive through liquor store. Many states not just as well. Wyoming is one of them, and you can drive through what they do is they'll give you a full style from glass of some sort of alcoholic beverage, but they put the little straw cover on the top that prevents you from having it. Take. I would love to have some, but I can't get can't get this off. I have to pull over to get this straw cover off. This is not an open container. It's covered this grain alcohol slushy that I've got. It's a big gult side. Anyways, meat, eat straight, briver and whiskey. Only drinking if you're twenty one and up and you're in a don't drink and drive. Yeah. Yeah, It's kind of like the applause at the beginning of right, Phil, I don't think I've ever heard applause at the beginning of any of your podcasts or or after. I can start adding that in post. Don't criticize me, Phil, Anyway, We're here to do some things. One of the things we want to do is talk about ethics. And the reason why I think whiskey could help that because maybe we have a lack of inhibitions because often when we're talking about these very important issues, we measure our words. Everybody gets measured. You think maybe we just will just get rid of that for this next forty five minutes or so, trying to think of a quote. No that that quote doesn't fit. Never mind, you'll never you'll never know, you'll never find, never know what quote it was. Um, all right, So the topic is gripping grins, Uh, Steve, you want to try to finding defining that term for us. When I think of a grip and grant, I think, um, it's a photo. I first heard the term grip and grin from my when I was in graduate school. I had a roommate named j. Nichols and he went out to have this very illustrious career in uh fun and fishing media, fly fishing media, and we were talking one day about covers, magazine covers, and he was saying to me that when it comes to magazine covers, you just cannot beat. When it comes like sales or whatever, you cannot beat a grip and grin. And I was like, what's the grim and grin? And it's what you think it's like when someone holding up holding up a fish. And in the context that he was discussing someone holding up a fish, but it's a great term. I think it applies to hunting and fishing. In my mind, a grip and grin is a photo with the explicit purpose of saying, uh, here I am, and here's the thing I got. And it's like not doing anything other than establishing the catcher, shooter, hunter, angler, whatever and the thing they got. It's not like really, it's not artistic, it's not it's just a documentation tying the person to do the two things together. It's like he got this often called a trophy photo. Yeah, people take different take but there's all kinds of different takes on and some new takes on. You know, there's something that are goofy and but but yeah, it's just like that's what it's for. Well, there's there's the screaming redneck. There's the solemn yeah, measured hunter. There's the in your face, in your face one. There's like I kind of regret doing it. Yeah, there's like I'm sad. There's the over over direct, overwhelmed by respect touching it. Sometimes you would stroke it or touch it and over it. Yeah, sometimes top of it. The photographer caught you in the actor with eyes closed. You didn't even know that they were there. Uh, that's I hate when photographers sneak up with me when I go. You weren't here the whole time. Uh, but yeah, it's all that. That's my idea of a grip and grin. Yeah, everybody knows when you see one. Yeah, you know when you see it, like a guy gotten a deer is not a grip and grind. Nope. I've been recently going around social media and people take photos that aren't gripping, Like, that's the worst figured I've ever seen. You blew it, get down behind there and get to spile it. But to your point, I think the grip and grin when it became like an established genre, then then people felt the need to have little spins and tweaks on it, and so they weren't getting called out on well that's just a gripping grin. There's it does nothing more than establish as you said, it was Catcher and the cot then that now like they're the different angles to it to try and sort of make it a little bit more Yeah, contextualized. Yeah, Well it was when people started. It was when people started to point out and Ben can explain what the problem is. It was when people started to point out that there was a problem with them. That people took a new tact, but if you but they evolve over time, because the old fishing grip and grim was you hang some bloody, half rotten fish on a hook or just a nail, yeah, like nail it to tree and stand there holding fishing. And that was like the Hemingway era, like you nailed it whatever. And then then then gripping grins around the time that I was introduced to the term grip and grin, uh, around that time, it was that a proper fishing grip and grin sort of left a little ambivalence about whether the fish was would be returned to the wall or dead, you know, like you're kind of holding it by the water, and it left the interpretation like you just removed it for a short bit. Yeah, like I don't know, he ate it, he threw it away. I don't know what the hell happened, but he was up, he was it was undecided at the time the photos, it looked like he was just gonna talk to it. And then then the evolved where you dip the fish's face down in the wall and you'd be like, oh, he's definitely And then there's ones where they're not even out of the water and it's like he's absolutely letting that go. I mean, you skipped a generation. There there was like the nailed to the post or nailed to the true fish, and then there was along but then there was like my my parents generation where it was everyone's back at the dock. You're just standing like in a yard somewhere, and someone's holding a fish. Well some fish, trophy trophy fish are held to the camera. If you got like a mess of croppy, you don't hold him up. You lay them down on the tailgate on the dock and bind them up. Most like a mess of squirrels in a hunting world says a whole different deal based on that big game. Yeah. Remember remember you know eagle claw hooks. Yeah, smelled hook. Yeah, that's a couple of dudes with with what sixty trout strung out on a stick. They use that image my entire life. Absolutely, that's like classic grip. We can't forget the rose like the Roseveltian grippy grin, Like grippy grin, the gripp and grippy grin. Yeah, that's whiskey. You put your foot up on like a show of dominance. You can't do that. That's not reverence. That's dominance. You can't do that now, And maybe that's the shift that we're talking about, Like nailed to a board is deaf only dominance in the fish world? Oh yeah, Would that be the equivalent of the Roosevelt boot to the throat? Probably? I'm aware of a grip and grind. Ben's aware of this grip and grin. There's a grip and grin in existence. Did is a man grip and grinning with a gorilla? Oh yeah, yeah. From it's like an old ruger, an old firearm, and like he his thing. It's that comes to the testimonial. He's got his grill and he's like, by god, the ultimately couldn't have gotten it done without my without what I don't want to say. I don't know if it's the ultimate predator takes on the ultimate predator. Yeah, I mean, so they're like this thing. It's it's easy to it's easy to pick out, but maybe hard to define, like you know when you see it. It's kind of like has to pass the bar test, like if you show a buddy, you know when you see it. But you can be defined in many ways and has over time been defined. Man, I could do it extremely quickly. Yeah, Oh that's a grip, and I think it's probably the most common over of decades use how we communicate success to each other. Like I would come to you, I'm not gonna come to you and show you a picture of me hiking in if I kill the bull, I'm gonna show you the gripper is the thing I'm showing. You know, Man, when you get something and you're like your bodies know you're doing something, you're saying, man, you know we're going if I could just catch a permit. This is my third trip and I still haven't caught a permit, And your body's like, do You'll never catch your permit? Right? And you go and you catch a permit, You don't. You're not gonna text your body the minute you get a signal. You're not gonna text him a picture you launched in the boat. It's gonna be the pose. There lies the problem with with the gripping grip. Right, what we think it is is not what other people think it is, and that's well documented. Now there's different levels of that, but I think in this conversation you come to a point where social media enters the fray because when I first got into the honey industry, like you couldn't I work for American Hunter magazine, Peters, it's honey, you couldn't not put a gripping grin on the cover. And then you start we started not putting gripping grins on the cover, but it was still it's still we still had to signify the same thing and make sure people were feeling the same way. And that turned into you know, a skull on a pack or you know a guy leaning by a fire with the with the skull up against the tree that had just killed a bull. Like, we still had to signify the same thing. We just success, but we got to a point where it was cliche or was burned out that just a dude in a big buck wasn't gonna do it. So there was one version of like we just wanted to be a little bit You wanted to capture a movement. Yeah, same same moment, same feeling, the same result, just a different depiction of that is where that genre started to blend out, right, And now now it's it's even become sort of a character of itself in some ways. Now you've got the classic the wall tent lit from inside the shadow, then against the crossing the river. Everybody's always gonna be crossing the river. Some photographer one day was like, that will be very dynamic if you cross the river with with with a head or you're packing up. Typically, yeah, but the skull is wrapped up because it's not an actual hunting picture. And oftentimes oddly they look ready for they have their rifle at the ready. It's like and they're only carrying the antlers, they're not carrying the meat, and they're at the ready like he's got a cow tag too. Yes, when I was so, I later in my career at Peterson's, I started to point that out. I'm like listen because they're like, well you know this, this is this shows you know what the hunt's really about. I said, well, there's no more trophy photo in existence than a dude just carrying out the head. Where's the meat? Like this is doing the same thing, Like it has the same kind of he's got some mud on his face. Yeah, he's at the ready like he's gonna shoot another thing. Yeah, he's got he's only by himself. So this as clearly it's clearly his fourth trip out. If he's got an elk on his back because he did he did take the meat. I'm assuming the gripp and grin became popular for a reason. As you said, it sold a lot of magazines for a lot of ears. Right, So when that when that pressure emerged, because I was part of the magazine world at that time too, to do something other than grippen and grins. You still have to signify that same thing without being as cliche about it. But you're still trying to do the same thing getting away from I want to be clear, I don't understand this. You mean getting away from grip of grins because they were cliche or getting away from gripp of grins because people felt that it was not the right image to put out. I would say both. I would say both of those things were played there some of it because we've seen this a million times, so it's it's played right. It is. It has become a cliche, and it's also not what we We don't want to privilege this moment of dominance to be as the the ultimate goal of what we're doing. We don't want to advertise it, whether or not we admit that it is or not. We don't want to advertise you want to insert some level of nuance to the conversation, Like most magazines want to vary their topics and vary their like the touch points in which they're communicating. You want to say different things with different images. Does fly Fisherman? What's not on the cover of Fly Fisherman nowadays? Is it still a dude holding the fish? A lot of the time it is? Yeah, Yeah, in Fisherman similar Yeah, North American whitetail very similar. It's it's like it's always inside the story of No, the deer magazines don't. They don't put grips on, they put the put they put fenced in bucks they do that too. But that's a whole different whiskey and ethics topic, right, But that's I mean, I think here's the deal. Here's one thing we should touch on it. At what point within the honey we have say this? What within the hunting community? At what point is one of these images in poor taste? It's in poor chaste. I'll just tell you what I think. I think it's in poor taste when the purpose of it is to incite anger and uh, to incite anger and incite passions, to incite negative passions, in preparing for thinking about this, I thought about this the ter day. Well, let me let me hold my analogy until you've better lay it out what it is, what's that issue? But I think it's becomes import taste and the point is to piss people off. Yeah, but I think it doesn't that come from context. Like I give me an example of someone who took a grip and grim with the intention of inciting anger. I think they took their grip and grin hoping theoretically to remember that moment and have whatever they wanted, and then it gets leaked out and sent around the internet. And that's what insights. Okay, when you if you let's say, let's just say not that this whatever happened. Never let's just say a guy shot a little family of bab moons. That's where I was exactly going, okay, and you line ends them all up like a little family, or a guy shoots a baboon, not that this is what happened, and props it up in the front of his truck and puts a cigarette in his mouth and put some sunglasses in it on its and puts a baseball cap on it um and then there he is sitting in the driver's seat in his little baboon is sitting in the passenger seat, and that's his that's his photo to tell to announce to his buddy's that he's uh very graciously rid the world of another annoying baboon, but he's a great white hunter. I think that that is in poor taste, and I think that he was that the purpose of the photo was to convey a level of disrespect and malicious feelings towards his quarry. I think there's there's a there's a valid example. There's an asshole test that we can all take like and in in in the modern sense, nobody the good and bad thing about where we are. In the modern sense of social media and huntings that there are you know, say there's fourteen million hunters, thirteen million, how every want to chalk that up. Everybody can tell a story. Everybody that's connected to the internet can go post a photo and tell their story. That's where this becomes important. It becomes these photos, these depictions become a big part of your story. So if the story you're telling is baboon with a cigarette in its mouth and sunglasses, or you standing on top of a dead giraffe or whatever the case might be. You're putting yourself out there as that's yours. That's how you're going to convey your story. Wasn't there a person that recently had a photo of something they had killed. A woman hunting in Scotland, I believe, had a photo of something that she'd shot, and for some reason she decided to pose with a dildo bloodied with the animals blood, as though she had somehow sexually. Yeah, it was a violated or a cheap but like a sheep the sheep shop, not a wild sheep, but a sheep sheep, farm sheep. And that was and it served the purpose. It was like if you do if you looked at like the definition of a grip and grin, it's sort of I would if someone's doing flash cards and like grip and grin, a grip and grin, And I wasn't weighing on I wasn't weighing on taste. And I was just like it was a binary yes, no, I'd be and they showed that I'd be like a grip yes and very poor taste. Yeah, what is that is that conveying respect for the quarry? Is it that you have that you're proud it was you achieved. It was like the fulfillment of some desire to achieve something or was it just that you're trying to sort of shame express your disrespect for it's surely boastful. I think it fits into the dominance category. No, it's like a bloody fist dildo to me, screaming I dominated this. Well, the story is like the story as well. It's a joe. We're at a bachelortte party and we it's not fun. Yeah, it's it's a joke, not well landed, and there's some boastfulness in that. I'm not anyone that could do that, anyone that would do that. Um, I don't think that they look at animals the way I look at them, and I wouldn't trust anything that ever came out of their mouth. And this is the person who did it is a famous hunt like famous huntress as it were many followers, many hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram and remains remains that today. Um, she still has sponsors. She went through this. They made t shirts kind of mocking the controversy. Um. And so I think all of that shows who she is and how what she thinks about hunting and the quarry and in the culture um betrays a level of cynicism in the culture that I find just really dark and problematic. Yeah, but but again, I mean on social media nowadays, we're all conveying some message. You don't post without the intent to convey a message. No, of course not, you don't. People that don't have any message that conveyed aren't on social Media's that's why I always love, Uh, this is a little bit off topic, but I always love people whose social media persona is that they don't care. It's like, it's like, but you do care, Like I don't. People don't care, they're not here. I really don't care. Media every don't care. But every every every there's probably million, there's probably billions of social media counts. They're all creative because somebody is trying to signal something to someone else on social media. If you write stuff, if you comment on social media, you have to admit that you care. You want to engage in a dialogue. You can't have it be that I'm on social media because I don't care. It's like, you know what, I don't like virtue signaling. Well, not liking, virtue, good luck. Paradox, Yes, quite a paradox. But at this point I have a thing here to ask a question. That's ken. They's ken gripping grins and social media be separated in the future, you know, man, it's a great question because there's the there's the what ought to be and what is should be? A rock song's we got a lot of power these days. We can make if there is a membrane, in my opinion, if the remains of membrane between UM photography and social media, it's a very very thin membrane, and it would really only be UM. And it would really be only the case if someone had, like if you had a really compromising photo, I would imagine that you would have it on uh, you would have a physical copy of the photo, and you would guard that photo very closely. Because the many you share digital images from phone to phone to phone, that membrane that exists between that images exposure UM through social media dissolves like you can't keep We talked about the Baboon case. In the Baboon case, he didn't bring it to social media, did not well, he did? He sent it colleagues. How thick was the membrane between those colleagues and social media, not that it's not it's like it was. It's it's like, I mean, it's become so obviously. It's like now you were talking about but when there's a photo on your phone, it's seconds away. It's but that's it. It's like the membrane is never thinner than it is now and it will be in the future. When you take a photo, you're like, why did I take that photo? Right? When there was no social media like to capture of memory to share with others, right, there was limited there's limited outlets to share with others. You could print that photo out and put it in a book and show people, much like it hunting industry trade shows and years past, everybody will be walking around with a little foot book, um all their things that they've killed, or all their photos from the field. Yeah, if you knew that, here's if you knew that you were the last person alive on earth. Yea, and you somehow just knew it. Right, It's like it was the truth, and you always would be would you take photos? No, I wouldn't be wasting my time, and I would I'd be like I had a lot of free time. Now it's just about me. They got it. There's a show like about that for the last man on Earth, I think. But yeah, I mean, look now that social media exists, as you said, Steve, every photo taken is normally one very brief and simple step away from being shared with any number of people. And so when you're taking a photo, unless you're while taking thinking I'm never gonna show this to anyone, what's the point of taking it. Who's the politician that accidentally posted compromising photos of himself to social media? The last name is Wiener. Yeah, then he think he was possible accidentally He's like, yeah, so it's the membrane is so thin, there was like it could be accidentally shared on social media. You're gone once it's in the cloud, it's in the ether. Like the photo can't really be separated from social media, even if you yourself intend to separate. But let me let me just point out by the tone of this conversation right now, there assumes some level of shame to Grip and grins. The way we were talking about right now is the fear of thin membranes and things getting out. And that wasn't a question the question of fear. Is there a difference? The question was can you talk about grip and grins outside of talking about social media? And I said, should be a reality, because I think, of course you should be able to very much talk about private images. There's a there's room for private images. Not that I'm saying that grins should be private, but I'm saying, in reality, we find that there tends to be a fluidity between things being taken and them being distributed. Right, But we did get there from the conversation about gribb and grints. Yes, yes, so there is some sense that, at least in some cases, perhaps in the case of the the Baboons, some grip and grins, do you have an associated shame to them? I think what he's saying is this, Why am I talking about what I think Ben's We're gonna get where? I got a whole list of things. I mean, I may I may be putting my own spin on this because I personally do have conflict around gripping grants. Yeah, so I think I don't assume shame at all. What I'm trying to get at with the point of like, when is an image in poor taste? Can you separate social media and these images. Is the why of taking a photo what you like, the intention of sharing it. That doesn't mean on social media. But when you start talking about sharing an image in that's where it's going. That's where it's going, even if you give it directly to someone else. As we've already established that membrane is thin. And so now I want to rephrase everything I said shot about it. I was giving advice to someone. Okay, If I'm giving advice to someone and this is not this is grip and grins, whatever, naked photos of your spouse, I don't care. But if I was giving advice to someone, um, I would say that if you when you take a photo, when you take a digital image, um, and hold onto it, I would view it. I would view it like this, Am I comfortable? Okay? When you take it digital image and share it with somebody, I would ask myself, am I comfortable sharing this with some broad spectrum of the world. Yes, just as a piece of advice. HU, I think if we really want to continue to take things like grip and grins, like take these photos of like smoking baboons or whatever, like what, we'll put those out of the put those out of the conversation of what, like what a real what the what the bulk of grim guns are like we use them as kind of huntings, trading cards, like hey, look look what I've done. It's kind of a signification of things, of accomplishments. I think we need to understand, like offline and online, what's the context are taken in, why are we taking them? What do we intend to do with them? All that stuff leading up to the taking of the image really defines what happens after that, because, as you said, the thin membrane between social media gets thinner by the moment that it exists, the moment that's exposed to anyone else. So as you spread that image around, say you send an email to colleagues, the membrane gets any it gets thinner, you know, as you amplify that image. And so when you're taking the photo at that point there's not a memory, there's a vacuum, and the instagram is sucking your picture that that's a good picture. So I just want to make the point I'm making is and taking these images. I think maybe the hunter with the dildo and the goat was thinking, oh, this is a funny. It'll be going the photo album of the I'm hoping they were thinking, Oh, going the photo album of our bridal party. Here, it's gonna be great. It'll be funny. We'll have a laugh at it later. Okay, great, that's fine. But as a hunter, you gotta think a little deeper than that. You can't just and she was a famous hunter at that or some semi famous hunter. If you care, if you care, you just which you should, no, because you should carry should care? I mean if you care. I don't mean if you care, because different people wage the wars in their lives in different ways. So I don't mean if you care. Uh, I think that's proper. If you care, if you care about hunting, now, that's what that's the waybe. We can pivot to the next thing. Because grip and grins have been weaponized by folks that don't want hunting to continue, certain types of honey or hunting all together. Yeah, you want to know what hunters think? Look, yeah, look at it holding up the dead animal. They don't care. So if you so, maybe if if again, to your in a vacuum, if we're all three sitting in this thing and a grip and great social media exists, but anti hunters don't exist. No one's ever used a grip and Grand to start a controversy. Then it's a different conversation. You can say, like you don't really have to say pejoratively, like if you care or don't care. But given the fact that people take these things and use them against us, I mean, that's how every hunting controversy starts. Every So the person the dead thing. So when you're taking when you're taking a grip and Grand in nineteen, you have to do so with the knowledge that this exists. I yeah, you have to do so, do so with the knowledge that it exists. But I believe, and I don't agree with them all, but I believe that people are doing it with the knowledge that it exists, and they're using that for different purposes. That's right. I don't agree with them all, but I think that there are people who do it with different purposes. And so this is this is where it comes like the the reactive culture where I have to change my behavior based on what everybody feels or things that's not And that's where my analogy comes in. Yeah, oh yeah, I want to give it now. For I thought about this lots. I knew we were gonna talk about this. Okay. Uh, imagine that you're you support your supporter of President Trump. You'd like to see President Trump elected in the next election, and um, to express your feelings about this, you put in your yard Trump Pence. Okay, straight up, Trump Pence. Someone comes to you and they say, hey, man, I prey shape that you're expressing your support for the president. But you know, there's some people that don't like Trump, and when they drive by and they see that sign, it makes them kind of mad and they actually get madder than they already are about President Trump. Therefore, I feel that you should take down your Trump sign. No way, no way. Someone's not gonna do that. Now. The other day I saw a sign, uh so take that person. And there day I saw a sign that said it was a it was a Trump sign, and it said make liberals cry again. Okay, um, it's like prol Trump makes cry again. Now is that person furthering their cause of the reelection of President Trump? And now are they having this sort of honest debate They're saying, here's what I believe in. I'm putting forth my um my perspective, showing my support I'm engaging in democracy all this kind of stuff. Or are they putting up a thing where the point is the point is just too make people kind of mad and they had like some fun at your expense. Is that furthering the campaign? Is that furthering the campaign of Trump? Or is that you just want to piss people off. I got a good Here's it's something that actually happened, not that what your analogy has definitely happened, but this is something I read it. This is something. So Peter had a thing where it was they were sharing photos with like the logo of like, animals aren't trophies. So that's what Peter was allowing that little overlay on photos on Facebook. You could grab it and put that logo if you're a PETA supporter. Well, hunters started grabbing that and ironically putting it on there trophy photos. They're gripping grins started flooding, ironically flooding the internet with you know, animals that can't be marginalized photos their trophies. And all that did at the end of the day was give Peter Moore ammo. Peter was like, oh, look at all these asshole hunters throwing up there trophy photos of disrespect and animals, and it was easy. It's almost like Peter poked at hunters enough to get them to react, and when they reacted, Peter jumped all over that. So look at all these dickhead hunters are exactly what we said they were. There they go again. All they want to do is brag and lay down their egos. Well, these are both examples of I mean very much what you were saying earlier than virtue signaling, right, And and if the goal is to further a bigger, like more nuanced conversation where two sides were able to have a debate and trying to understand each other's point of view, I don't think that's the point the purpose either in either of these case. This. I think that in general, if you're putting up a grip and grin, you are announcing to the world I believe in the values of hunting and fishing. I don't believe in the values of peda. This is who I'm all about. I will use an example from my own background in this. A long time ago before I was before I was married, and I was considering doing some online dating, and a friend of mine said, you know what you need to do in your profile picture. In your profile picture, you need to put up a picture of you holding holding a dead deer, just to cut through the bullshit, because then you won't have to worry about like the wrong kind of women who would be offended by your lifestyle reaching out and one to date you. Yeah, I get where he's coming out. I was. I did not agree. I did not agree, and that is not what I did. But I think, like I think, My point is, I think that the grip and grin has become one of these lines in the sand, one of these demarcations of identity for better or worse that now gives it a lot of power, Whereas maybe it was just the thing initially, like hey, I want to show off how proud I am of this. It's not that anymore. It has a lot of cultural baggage attached to it. It's an explicit expression of value exactly, which is why I personally am conflicted about the grip and grand kind of as a genre. Yeah, maybe we can maybe we should just now say, like kind of what we give, go around and give our own kind of take on what we can do with this situation seems fraught. I mean I think, I think I'm conflicted, and I will I will go are you in here right now? But you can't see and and so it's just the animal being dominated by a dude. I'm dominating the hell out of that move. It's an animal being dominated by an anonymous figure. Oh, and the conflict is real because there are hundreds of grip and grand photos of me that exists. Yeah, there are that happened, right. But to put this in more specific terms, I used to run a guiding and outfitting service here and we had well here was our deal man. We had a social media account. We were trying to bring in business, right, and on our Instagram feed it drove me nuts. We will put up these beautiful photos of like, you know, people out and joining themselves and like really well composed. They didn't give a ship. The only engagement we got was a griping photos. But do these boys catch fish? But yeah, exactly, like, oh that's great, they have phone and all. That's a nice lunch. Oh look at that artsy release shot. I don't give half a ship about that. Let me see that giant brown shout held way out in front of the camera. Every time we did that so our legs would triple. This is a perfect I think this is a perfect expression. This is but that was problematic. This is the perfect expression of the problem. The problem is within hunting and fishing. It means something right within the clientele for your fishing guide service or any hunting guide service, because a lot of times I've hunted with the guide and they've said, like, gripp and green, right, I need that for my poor folio. I'm like, well, I don't really do I'm not really into that. Really do that. They're like, no, no, no, do it for me. Like okay, fine, that's fine, just do whatever you want with it. But that's within our community. It gets more likes, it's more popular because it's a sign of success. To sign that you got what you came for, is to sign that your guide specifically knows what the hell he's doing. There's a lot of things that it means. Outside of our world. We've already discussed what it means. It doesn't mean those things. So now we're faced with the conundrum of the duality of meaning with these things. And so there's some people that lean into the hunting community's definition of a grip and grind that part of the duality, like it's about the lore of hunting and the history and our storytelling and our pride. We're not we're not shameful about hunting. Why can't we There's some people I'm in this camp that lean a little bit towards like there's too much damage going on. There's two there's just far too much damage that this causes for me to continue to do it and lean into the other, the hunter side of the coin. I have to lean into the negative side, which I hate to do. It's not in my personality to be like changing my behavior based on some people getting upset. But if I look at the tangible damage that's been done by these things, it's hard for me to When I weigh the tangible damage and I weigh what I get personally from sharing group and grins, I can give up what I get personally just in case somebody might want to use it to damage me or hunting in the future, But what will I think that's valid. I think there's also within the community a question that comes up with gripp and grains, and that's that's one that for me was the issue when I was running that that guide service and we're figuring out what images to put up, which is that I am a passionate believer that hunting and fishing is about far more than that moment where you successfully catch or kill or dominate or fill your tag or catch your fish or whatever it is that you're out to do, and that by creating a culture of media, and the media is very responsible for this where all we privilege is that big giant buck, of that big giant permit, or me standing there holding the huge stringer of fish. We are only focusing on that end goal, and we were encouraging a whole lot of people who just want to circumvent the process and get to that end result. And I think that is not the way that I, as a person in the media or as a guide, want to paint a picture of hunting and fishing. Yeah, but what about stuff where it's not big? What about like a twelve year old kid was his first four key buck, or someone would have squirrel? Is it like you like, this is a giant squirrel? No, what cares how big squirrels are. I'd say that's that's an outlier in a very different example, And that to me is poking fun of the genre of the grip and grin. Absolutely, it's not. It's not. We took pictures of rabbits and squirrels before there anybody even brought up the fact that there was a problem with grip and grins. We didn't like. We weren't goofing on grip and grins, and we took pictures of squirrels and we were little kids, ten year fun grip and grins. But I think, okay, I think that if you have a ten year old kid holding a bunch of squirrels or a limit of perch, he's grip and grin and he's as happy he could possibly gripping there. There's a there's a purity there that I will respect. But I don't think that you can make a comparison to that of the guy holding up his big giant permit being likeparing it. I'm saying that you're saying that grip and grins are this thing meant to talk about the biggest, the biggest and the best. But that's only a small fraction of grip and grins. We took a grip and grin the r day a yearling antelope. Yep, it was I I wasn't being like this despite all appearances, is a giant. Okay, two things. One, yes, that can happen, But I still think that that privileges the moment at the very end of a long process and only carves that out as the thing that we're paying attention to do. But the other pieces that when we're talking about media and when you look on social media, you look at magazine covers, do you say it's only a small slice that are the big giants. I would say that in media it is the vast majority. You're right. Magazine cover. Sure, people don't put dinker antilope magazine, and they generally don't put it on their Instagram account either. Sometimes they do, but in general, if we're looking across the board of the people who are putting up pictures themselves on social media and want to get attention about it, no, usually they put up dinkers. Like when you put up a dinker, you gotta have a sort of thing that kind of explains why it's a danker, exactly just proud to have, yeah, thinking they're gonna a comment about it being a dinker that had them off at the past. That's one thing that happens though, when you kill a dinky animal, right when you know that, Like, if you're trying to tell people you're a good hunter, you're trying to be like, look how successful I was. If you share a photo of forky Mulde or spike buck, you then feel like you have to explain how that came to me. You're not like you got filled my tag, You're like you fill my tag. It's been a tough season and my son really wanted me to shoot this, and I don't have any hamburger. It's gonna be really deliciously that I had to put. Yeah, that's not your You gotta know, you gotta ask you, solf. You gotta ask yourself why why is it that you have to couch those things? And the reason I think is because those grip and guns are meant to signify success, and what is success a big animal? And so why is the epitome of a grip and a big animal to cover? Is because all the things I just said leading to the end game. And so within the hunting community, this is a problem because that it is almost in essence, doing what the anti hunter wants it to do. It is pulling forward the feelings of like, we just want the biggest thing, even if that's not really what you're after. It's pulling it out, it's taking it. That's what eyeballs. But in what other cultural battle does one side sort of capitulate in order to like temper the criticisms of the opposing side. Meaning let's say your whole life is that you're like an abortion abortion rights advocate. Do the really diehard abortion rights advocates end up saying, you know what, you're right, I'm giving up on taxpayer funded abortions and later term abortions because that just pisces people off. Do people like staunch Second Amendment supporters they're not like I believe personally um in the right to own semi automatic firearms. But that does pierce people off. So I will stop saying that and I'll just give in. No one else in any other social battle is doing this. Maybe they're wrong, Like the slippery do you think that they're gonna go away? Do you think that you're gonna say to to to like you know what, grip and grins they really do piss anti hunters off, and they turned public perception and then for a year no one puts up a grip and grin. And also we realized that like everyone's now totally cool with hunting. Hell no, absolutely not hell no. So it's just like, but what, what what might happen? We might find a better fewer controversies would be fomented and enthusiasms and the fun would be dampened, so we would live in a generally more neutered world. I I feel that when I look at this, and I say, I look at it in a in a realistic sense. For me, I'm not gonna like I've made a mistake in the past, but like, hey, maybe if everybody just doesn't do it, if you do whatever you want, I don't care as long as you can stop and say why are you doing it? What are you doing it for? What's the end result? Because we say at the same size of our mouth, we say, like, you need to be conservationist, you need to spend money, you need to care about the future of hunting. This is part of that. So we can't Also we can't say that and then also say don't worry about this, do whatever you want, screw the anties. We can't say both those things at the same time. We've got to find a middle ground where we can say, like, care about the future of hunting, get more people to do it, speak about it in an intelligent way, tell your story in a way that matters. Do all those things. But just know that the head of the snake is this type of photo for whatever fucking reason, I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. So what are we gonna do with that? First? My personal feeling is just my own personal feelings that if I can just get rid of that, I can focus on other things that I can do to help hunting move forward. I can just take a picture of the meat, take picture of the head, take a picture whatever. Just eliminate that. It's annoying to me. It's annoying to have to deal with it, So I just eliminate it and move forward with like all the other storylines that are important to hunting, and leave this one behind because it is fraud. However, for I have whatever bullshit reasons, it is fraught with peril when he gets shared. We got an email from someone some time ago pointing out how his wife felt that photos of raw meat was just completely distasteful. Yep, she interesting what the point of it was? She thought it was people trying to girls people out. Yea. If she u if she works for like the New York Times and writes a story and then it gets picked up on CBS and then they shut down elephant hunting and fucking Zimbabwe, then maybe I don't think she did that gets elevated to that. There's always like a guy down the road, right, there's always I just think, but I just think. I'm sorry. I apologize for all anecdotal that was. It's it's we have to elevate this to some version of what we always talked about. You talk about it, you talk about it. I talked about it like it's it's part of the lexicon of hunting and fishing. To want to promote it. Remember I gave life advice earlier. Yeah, I remember about the minute you share an image, ask yourself, am I comfortable with this image being distributed? Don't know you said the minute you take an image and don't erase it? No? Then I clarified, fair enough, fair enough because because you know, I mean right, like I take. But I think your initial points. I've had pictures of my kids, like I've had pictures whatever, Like you know, my kids are little teeny kids, and I had a picture of all taking a bath together. Um, if I had sent that around to a bunch of folks, right, I would have been in violation of my own rules. So I want to clarify that, Yes, I think you can have a photo on your phone that you're not sharing. But but I wouldn't say life advice, never have a never take a photo that you're not comfortable with being distributed. I would say, never share an image that you're not comfortable with it getting out in any form. In that life advice, like life advice to a hunter, I would say, when um, when putting up grip and grin images, ask yourself, what is my goal in sharing? This? Is my goal in sharing this to uh prod, to incite anger, to stick it to them, to show them their hypocrisies. Or is it that I'm I'm I'm sharing a um an emblem of something I care about, and it's like something that means something to me personally, and I feel that this is like putting my best foot forward, or is it like this all show them those But it's like yes, also a little bit like understand unintended consequences, understand the cultural state, of being like where we are and what these things mean, and just understand that this this is now for it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, this is now a twisted up symbol. It's now twisted up symbol, and just you have to understand that. And for the folks that pushed back on these types of things with like we should be able to do whatever we want to do. I guess I agree. I'm not. I very staunchly feel socially conservative, like in a way that I've I'm not going to change what I believe because a couple of people don't like it. But in this case, there it is not that anymore, unfortunately, and it's just unfortunate that's the case, but that is the case. It's just not that some people just don't like it anymore. And like to your analogy earlier, if your intention is to just poke the bear and stoke the fire of people's anger, think about where that gets you in terms of your bigger goals. Is your goal to like create a broader gulf between those of us who see the value and honey and folks are against us. If so, I'd like to hear your argument for how that that's helpful. But the point I am curious for both of your perspectives, is I brought up this idea. For me, there's a split within the community that I think we should look at whether or not this is celebrating a moment of pure joy, the kid holding up his forky buck that you just got. I get that. That to me feels pure or is it sort of us trying to signal like, look at me, I dominated this animal, I was so successful and showing some level of disrespect that is inherent in the gripping photo. I think that there's some of it that that this that will just be just has to be anecdotal. Some people think this, some people think that a little kid with a fourkey buck is different than the dude with a big, giant cheap All of that is true, and I think those those moments of like what, We're never really gonna find one reason that these things happen. There's a bunch of pitfalls though, one of them being that a lot of people have stopped thinking about or have have had occasion at least to stop thinking about the meaning of these images, and they're just playing the game. Social media is a game. You get points for doing things. People like you get. It's like a three pointers more than a two pointer. A grip and grant is more than a picture of a backstrap. Yeah, but people were taking grip and grins and sharing them way before social media, right but social no, no, no, not at all, But I amplified them. All I'm saying is like I would say, we're an unfortunate circumstance via social media, the cultural changes that we've had and the situation where in it's unfortunate. I wish we could go back to when we when I had photo, I was more insulate. But now we're in this situation where some people are are playing the game to get and and we're in this situation all of us where we're in the professional media. The more followers we have, the more valuable we are. And so they're playing the same game. They're like, well, if I just kill a lot of big animals and share my grip and grants, it gets a lot of likes to get more file of where companies might sponsor me. I might get money, I might be famous, I might have a TV show, I might write a book. And they forget and chasing all those things and getting all the positive points from social media, that there's a bigger meaning to these things. These things have a larger cultural meaning. They have the ability to shift things in ways no one understands, which they already have. And at the end of the day, they can stop hunting in places like British Columbia and African Zimbabwe and Scotland where that land the highest levels of government, they were gonna they were gonna rethink. Yeah, certain hunting laws based on those grips. But those grips. One of those grips, the early grip. There's nothing wrong with it. No, the early grip. Just the Scotland hunter. Um. The woman had got in trouble for the dildo image. Her initially got a bunch of trouble just her to just hearing to go. But there was things about it where they this gets really kind of weird. Um, she was like the traditionally hunting these little outfits. I came out with the column special little outfits. What's the word I'm looking for. I hope it's special little outfit because that would be in Scotland. Kial a little outfit kilt. No, it's a little suit you wear like a little wool suit. Breeches Nick tweets like tweet tweet, you get dressed up in a little suit, yeah, to start dressed out a little part if you get if you dig into this case, part of the gripe was there was a gripe with she had like camel on, yeah, and she had her rifle accessorized in a way that to the Scottish mind made it feel militaristic, even though I think it was a bolt action rifle, but it had like trappings of tactical something or another. And some of the early thing was why is she dressed up like that in this place to red traditionally hunting little get ups because people have been hunting on a sheep on that island for hundreds of years and there's guiding services out there. But it was that she was a Westerner, not not like she was. She's Canadian, I think, but she's like not from there, She's from this country that seems a lot like America. She's got camo get up on, she's got like a bipod. It looks kind of military. Um. And then oh and she has other pictures where there's a dildo and it tied something together in a way that you could go online and book trips to that outfit and go. But that person dressed that way, I don't know, like you know everything about it, the makeup, everything. It just pissed people off. And then they're like, we're gonna read We're gonna take a care look at our hunting rules knowing that this is going on, like knowing that this is going on, That's what I took from that too. From that thing, I read an article on Fox News that was like, quoting some of the government officials, we were unaware that this was going on. Is such bullshit, so that they've been guiding out there for hundreds of years. But that's the situation. Unfortunately, this part of that's the situation where we are. It was like, oh man, what what? I was aware of the scandal on on Instagram and everybody was follow up. I did not hear about this follow up that it did it in fact go to changing Dude, the Camo bipod photo or whatever. That was like the Mullet report and this is like and then the Ukraine. It was like two totally separate parts of the same story. Really, so yeah, again, I only I only saw the dildo photos and all that blowback on social the main hot water that the government like reinvestigating and getting to the bottom of what's going on on this sheet hunting island. That was just from a blonde girl. And I guarantee if it was some dude who works in like the heating and cooling industry from Texas, wouldn't happen some young girl. Oh tactical. Yeah. I was like, people were like, what my wrong band, Well, there's so I'm reading some stuff here now, like you're right. Scottish Parliament weighed in on it and some of them Nicolas Sturgeon remember of the Parliament's it's just totally understandable why of these images from islay of dead animals being held up his trophies is so upsetting an offensive to people. Scottish government review the current situation, consider where the changes to the law are required. That's enough for me now point being made. This is the first two group and grounds that were shared were as Germaine and normal as anything you might see like that, like you said, as as the breaking came, the wind swept cape and the other one she's taking a photo of a guy with land feature. Yeah, like it's beautiful. So before any of the dildo like you almost gonna raise that people already pissed. Scottish governy is reviewing a practice that has been going on for decades because of a grip and because of a grip and grin, Who cares if it was just a blond lady review happened because of the wildly distributed because of a coldly distributed group of grin. There had been plenty of what do you call like if you go into archive and type in Islay Island hunting, there are millions of grip of grins where they got those little get ups on those goofy little get ups. I've had one of those get ups on how did you feel a hunting snow? On one of the little deals. Man, listen, this all is the This will remain a debate because, like I said earlier, you can either lean into like hey man, this is harming it. They like they're reviewing, they're reviewing the laws on a Scottish island because a blond lady went there and shot a goat. Remove the dil though thing. That's what they're doing. But that is a react, like that's what got they were doing. They were doing. Thew that was was a follow up that was the question. No, it was like, oh, by the way, anyone who had any doubt about this person was that was a fallow. Okay, that's checking this out different. This will put the rest any conversation about what kind of individuals were talking about here. It yep. It was like if I started with a pretty standard I kill you, and it's like maybe we were in a fight, Like people like, I don't know, maybe they're in a fight. And then they go to my house to investigate, and I got a hundred dead people in my house, right, helpless people. They're like, see this is that's what he's really fight my ass. He just kills He's a serial killer. Told you no inhibitions. Hey, listen, I think this is what will continue to be the conversation. Man, like this happened. This person shared a photo of them hunting, and all of a sudden, the Scottish Parliament is looking into the hunting laws. That happened, and I understand doesn't happen in politics, doesn't like like people tend to generally stick to their guns. Not many people are like okay, but and make concessions. Okay, over time, that's all I'll say. Over time gripp and grins have Let's say, of the last thirty years, grip and grins have always grip and grins of goats on this island have been present over the last thirty years. Can we agree on that, Like, I don't know if that's true or not. There's no way it's not true because they're running a business guiding. You have the ship that you get your Let's just let's just shorten it to the last based on the law of miles, that outfitting group grip and grins, so over the last we'll just give it twenty years. These photos have existed Somewhere in that span of time, social media was invented, it became popular. Now, our culture changed immensely during that time. The way we think about things and share ideas and communicate with each other changed immensely in those years. Through those years, the consistent thing was gripping grins. The inconsistent or ever changing thing was our culture and the way we see that image of the way we see hunters and the way we see hunting that has changed. Gripping grins are consistent. At some point, the changing culture and the consistent gripp agrin smacked together with a lady and a goat on the island and what happens or a lady it's all see, this is where this conversation starts to get the rich. It's often ladies. People hate to see a woman with a dead animal, the woman with the draft, the woman with the zebra. People don't because they're like, if it's gone so far that women, the gentlest things on the planet, the most peace loving creatures, to you know, they've taken to dealing death. We have poisoned our culture to the point where women will kill and nothing worse than a young woman. Then people are like, this has to stop, We must stop. I didn't mind when those old white dudes, but young women know because that doesn't fit our stereotype. And that's the only way anyway. The But I do you agree with what I'm saying? I total agree with what you're saying, and in not to chip away at my own perspective here at my own point. But I have evolved, of course I haven't. No, not in the last none the least over time. I have evolved. The types of grip and grins did I take? When I was a fur trapper, there was like a way to take trapping grip and grins. Um. I wouldn't do that now. Uh, the risk of provocation for the pictures we were taken, The risk of provocation is so high now that when I gambled it out, not gambled it out, evaluated it whatever, and like prode and conduit, I'd be like, dude, the cons outweigh the pros. Cons outweigh the pros. So I am always like looking at this and and and and change. What I'm doing. What I'm trying not to do is I'm trying not to get way out ahead. I'm trying not to like retreat before the bad guys even show up. I was gonna say, like my the final statement I can say about this is I think we're all, whether we know it or not, a justing our own activities based on shifting cultural shifting cultures. Like we're all like, hey, I I used to do this. I wouldn't do this. I used to do that. I wouldn't do that. Now we're all shifting the way that we talk and speak based on what's acceptable now that that's that's so prevalent in our culture now in good ways and bad me too. My wife have had very spirited debates about whether or not we're gonna spank not each other, talking about to the children, not yeah, but our kids and having kids, we asked ourselves, you know, like thing that people just used to be just I don't think people. I don't think like my mom and dad didn't have like a debate about it. They just spanked everybody. So uh yeah, social so things change. I think this argument could be boiled down to this. I am taking I am going ahead and saving myself the trouble and taking this to its logical conclusion and not doing a grip and grins. You are holding out hope that it never has to be that and we can find some other ways. You're running get out to the end. I'm just being like, it's not too far away if I just go ahead, and like we're already putting sensitive filters over pictures of meat and dead animals. The logical ten years from now conclusion is that they might just ban hunting from social media altogether. But I fear that there's like the risk of I'm not because I am. I am sharing hunting every day all the time, and am I hearing you correctly and saying that you are drawing a line of saying. You are making a claim that you will never do a gripping grant I have done with grip because that would be foolish. Exactly if you got something real big changed my mind, I han't gonna know. How are they gonna know who killed? If I'm not sitting behind I can't show them picture of my tag. That'd be stupid. But but but it's huge guy, But I'm not. I'm not. I don't want to be the douche in hunting camps. It's like I will not take a picture without animal exactly exactly. I'm not that guy. What the guy I am saying is like, I'm not going to go out there and be like this has to be part it used to be when I was coming up, has to be part of the experience. Like if you didn't take your gripping grin, it wasn't really documented. Picture didn't happen. Picture didn't happen. Right now, when I go out I resist it. Yeah, and I I'm actually with you on that. I'm like, I want to because I want to go hard and fast. I will not. I'm not drawing that line of sand, which is why I had to ask that question, I would not say, like no either, no more. If somebody said, hey, i'll give you hunter bucks, take give us, give me that yearly antelope bucks. Give me that hunter Bucks. I'll take it, but I take a few of us. It's such a thinly that's a lot of money these days. Like, but I that my conviction is around like the thoughtfulness around the image, and so I resist doing it for any other reason than like, oh it's it's hunter Bucks, or it tells the story a little bit better or whatever. I just resisted being a like a stepping a step in the process, like I killed it. I spend an hour taking images of it, then I cut it up being obligatory. Yeah, I just resist that, and I'm not I'll probably do it again, I bet, and it's and I'll share with everybody be like hey, look I did it, and everybody like you for telling me not to do it. It's fine, that's all fine with me. I just this conversation. It leads to people thinking about it. That's the only thing that we could ever do. Like it leads to people say, hmm, what's the purpose of this, Why am I doing it? What's it gonna mean? Could it lead to you know, no more grizzly bear hunting in Montana. We other than that, no more grizzly bear hunting in British Columbia. Could it lead to that? Probably not, But if I do it a certain way, it could lead to something negative, you know, especially those of us that have you know, careers quote unquote. And it's in this injury. So that's just my stance on it. But I think that probably is to your point taking it to its logical conclusion and also saving myself the guff and like just saying it's not it's not that important to me. I don't really care about it, So I'm just not going to do it because there is some world where it could turn into something that's not it's not. Yeah, yes, yeah, It's almost like the opposite of snowflake is um for me, because I'm just like, I would rather not deal with it. Mm hm. So I'm just gonna go ahead and move on. Uh. One thing I thought about the other day, I was conversed with someone on social media about grips and um, you know, you get like, why did you take a picture of it like that? And I'm because I was really happy that I got it. If I wasn't happy that I got it, I wouldn't shot it. I'm sad I feel, Yeah, I would have been like, yeah, I'm not gonna shoot. I mean the sad group of is only a reaction to It's just part of this whole. In my evolution away from grim and grins, I was like, well, while struggling with the gripp and group, I was like, well, what what I want to still take because I want people to know I killed it, but it was kind of but I want to seem sad about So then I took like ten or twelve douche images of me, like touching a bear and stupid things like that, and I'm like, oh, that's done. I don't want to do that. Maybe I just I don't have to worry about whether to do it or not. I just won't do it at all, so I can get on with what I like to do, which is hunting, and not worry about them. And then I'll take pictures of the gut pile and of the dead animal. Use that's not offensive to anyone. Yeah, I got piled nobody sensitive image Phil phil Phill the engineer, Yeah, close this out, Phil, with what like, what would you do. Let's say there are yeah you got you got a big fish, or you shot yourself a real nice deer. What do you do? I think now, I'd say, well, before I became kind of surrounded by people like you guys, I yeah, I I considered gripping grins like mostly kind of tacky, you know, like from from like it is complete outside yeah, where I wasn't offended by them. It didn't bring me to a point of anger, but like, uh yeah, and I guess I hadn't really thought about it until I started working here about why I felt that way? Is that why you won't put up a grip of yourself up in the studio here? No, I don't have one, and I've caught like, I have never hunted big game, but I've caught several fish and not one stead of a did anyone think to take a picture that's just like exactly it didn't happen? Then, no one wants to hear your fish. But I'd say from I'd say from an outside perspective, I think, is you guys, one thing we haven't talked about. I think the kind of grip and grins that draw the most anger and ire from like a certain portion of the spectrum. Are like the the ones that come out of Africa, of like CEOs of fortune companies wearing khakis in a big hat and they're standing next to like a big, majestic African ANIMs something that yeah, we didn't get into that an animal that most people don't think of as a game animal. And you're like, hey, that's the thing from my mobile above my nursery crib and all the Disney movies in the world. I gotta say that there is no ceo. There's no ceo rich guy wearing a hat taking a photo of a lion that doesn't understand what that's gonna mean, Like, is there there's a certain awareness So at this point in our culture, just doing that as poking the bear, Like if you're just like I'm I shot at the baz or Ibex and I'm I'm in Pakistan and I'm going to share this out in the world. Just doing that, just shooting you understand which animals. I know that a grizzly bear, if I shot a grizzly bear, I would if I didn't share a group and gread I know what that would be. If I shot a Simmatore horn Arex in Texas and sat behind it. I know what that would be. I'm not foolish in the way that like, different animals need different things. When I got that big panda man, yeah, it was that I did the very sad you hugged him. I did. I kind of propped him up and and hugged him. Yeah, because I was afraid of what people would think about what happened. That was heartwarming. Actually the way you did that, Oh no, it was a very an went on the Ellen Show and I saw one tier. I think like he didn't want to mate anyways. All right, Phil, you are you good? I'm good. We figured out so where you at right now? He just told us what you used to think. So now you love grips, your grip guy? Yeah, sure, come on. It's hard because I've never I've never liked, you know, caught or or hunted something and been like so proud that I felt like I needed to take a picture. So I have never been in your shoes before. You felt no pride, didn't catch any Oh no, I loved it, but it was for me. I didn't assumes that the grip and grid is not for you, right, The point we're talking about earlier is that the initial grip and grind of the old school group and what have you gonna call it, is to capture that moment and that memory for your own edification. And we're and we've also built a lot of anks with everyone listening and saying like, no matter what you do, that photo will make it to the internet. So Phil, you gotta end this man. You're the decider. Do we do grip and guns or not? Yeah? Alright, cool, Yep, that's it and they're good. We're all good with that. Alright. Whiskey and ethics Round one? Next up baiting baiting, baiting. Yeah, so the next not the next hunting collective like down the road sometime we're gonna talk about bating. You want to see someone him and Hall? What are you do? That are you? You're in the middle of you? Could you do have corn? All? Right? Bye? I guess that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to Stephen Ranella for talking about whiskey and ethics and gripping grants. That's a topic that a lot of people have banged on me for for my opinions and um, and so why not dive right into it. So thank you for listening to that. Before we go, Phil, we have something we need to have, breaking news, breaking news out of the th hc UH news desk. That's true. We we we put a bow on it, and then we're gonna we're gonna loosen the bowl Berry Berry Kay Gilbert. We put a bowl earlier in the show on Barry Kay Gilbert. We're gonna bring it back, and it's for an important reason. Barry rode in to our producer Karin Um after we recorded the intro to this, and he was he was not happy. So he expressed wish, he wish he had not come in for the interview, and he wasn't happy with Um, for example us inferring he was an anti hunter or comparing him to anti hunters. He wasn't happy about that. And listen, I get it. I get that we do an interview and then we do an opening segment talking about the interview, so it can seem unfair to the interviewee that they don't get to be a part of the set up. So I get that. So my responsive Barity was like, hey, listen, I get it. I didn't have any any going into that podcast. I didn't have any uh, feeling that I needed to debate him or argue. I just wanted to have a good conversation and learn um about his experiences. So I'm not into there being any contention, even though there was. UM. So I figured the best way to do that was to offer him a chance to write something that I could read here on the podcast, so he can get his opinion out there one more time, and then Phil, we can really put a bow on it, like a big bow. Yeah. Is there anything else we can do to it to make it extra official? We'll put it on a train, buy it a ticket, buy had a ticket, Put it on a train, on a train. I like it. Like it. Um, I you know we've said this already, but I just spent two or three days only talking about this interview in this guy, So I'm ready to move on to something different. So but before we do, we're gonna read this. UM. I guess you'd call it a statement for Barry Gilbert. Um. We're in regards two the podcast. In number eighty two, he says, I appreciate media podcasts offer to correct some misinterpretations in my opinion that went out my value mindset. Is not anti hunting or as an animal rights guy, nor ever was ethical. Hunters have been the core and wave of wildlife survival, conservation and management of our populations. That is what I taught wildlife students in Utah. Many of my academic colleagues were waterfowl hunters and big ugle and hunt ungland hunters, but no one that I knew aspired to hunt carnivores like grizzy bears. We get there, Phil were clear, I think there's more. There's more. Uh So I want to emphasize that I'm against hunting grizzlies in the Lower USA, no matter what Ben O'Brien and his collegn that media to advocate with the North American model. I got heated in the interview because Ben's almost super liberal attempt to get us all together somehow. Frankly, I felt the dialogue between these production majors of the site was quite condescending towards my views. Listen to how jittery they were at my unexpected views. Ben admitted to not being as prepared on the topics I advanced, but it did not inhibit his quote unquote something worth considering response to my long experience both on the ground with grizzlies, but many scientific publications. That's that's strangely worded, but that's how it's written. One a bit more. Please read my book one of us a Biologists, Walk among Bears, and look up Mountain Journal. I love coming to Montana. Keep it wild, Barry. So that is Barry's statement. We're gonna leave it just like that. I think I've said all I want to say on the subject. I said it during the interview. I said in the opening of this podcast. I just want to give Barry a chance to say his peace for war, whatever it is. And we're gonna move on to the next episode of The Hunting Collectors. We'll see you next week. Because I can't go a week without doing right, oh without rude, drut right, drinking in it. Don't sit in at the possible. It stops to row route being there again. Hold on out, Russues, I'll tell me what is it that I should do.

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