00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, how's it going, everybody? Episode eighty The Hunting Collectives coming at you right now. We got a lot to do it, a lot to cover, and this is gonna be all about upland birds, gun dogs, shotguns, real fancy type stuff, right Phil. I wouldn't know because I did not sit in on this um episode. Oh you were in, you did well? Yeah? Well I talked, yes here in a few I talked about my dog. I didn't hear your interview with Ben Bene the other Benno Ben Oh Williams, Ben Oh Williams. Yeah, but we did. We did cover Mango. Yes, So Mangoes coming up. We also have Morgan Mason, Joe Ferronado for the mediator crew. We went out did a little bluegrass hunt up in the hills Uh National Forest here around town. Talk about that, talk about ah, the mysterious but beloved Mango. Do you want to titilate anybody with them? Yeah? Sure, we talk about um my dog, my family's dog. Her name is Mango. Ben is not a fan of the name, but we go, we go more stupid more into that here. Yeah, so hang around for that. Yes, And also Joe and Morgan is pups they're dogs too, Ferg and Opinion and we talk about Opinion's name origin. It's pretty cool. You'll like it. And then we went to Livingston, Montana and we hung out with Ben oh Williams. And he is a legendary in my opinion, uh Hungarian partridge hunter. He is a Brittany breeder and owner, a writer, kind of the seminal writer in the upland world. He had a lot of great stories. He's been upland hunting in this in the Shields Valley of Montana since the early nineteen sixties. He was literally the first person to do it. So he's got a lot of great stories at the great the right old age, I believe of eight one. But he's still out there hunting, so stick around for that. But before we get that, we gotta lot to cover here, a lot to cover. We're gonna do it quick. Um. Federal premium ammunition. What do we use? We're on upland hunt, we use federal premium ammo. Um. I only missed twice, Phil and I shot three times and missed twice. Do you feel like that's that's that? That would be a solid batting average, a Hall of Fame batting average. Sure, sure, feel skeptical. Um, we were using Federal Premium, the high velocity upland load. It's a great load. I'm using it two and three quarter in shell with a seven shot size of seven UM. And this is a premium branded copper plated lead shot, brass plated heads, high velocity, pretty tight, pretty consistent patterns from the folks at Federal Premium Ammunition. So go to Federal Premium dot com pick up some of those upland loads. You're going to enjoy it unless you live in California. Um, then you can't. So just a warning, as it says on their website, warning for California residence. It's a quick little warning, so watch what you're doing with that. But go to Federal Premium dot Com. And then Eddie, Yeah, he's got a new backpack out. I don't know if you want to call it a backpack. They probably yeah, they do. Um. Steve Ronella had one. I was playing around with it. It is. It's badass. He loves it. I love. It's called the Crossroads Backpack twenty three. Uh. It's your everyday durable pack if you're going back to school or if you're going back to the woods. It doesn't really matter. It's the Eddie Crossroads backpack at eddie dot com. You can enjoy that. Go check it out. I've got one and I love it. Steve Ronella has one and he was saying its praises to me the other day. So go to Eddie dot com and check it out. But before we use this show, I got, I got. I do have one request from you. We have a new segment coming, right, Phil, a new segment coming. Yeah, we do. It's it's exciting. We'll keep all the details. Seems like we've we've been, You've been really on top of these new segments. Yeah, this is a real one. The rude comments one, Yeah, this is a real one. Though those are fake ones. Those are the ones I do because it amuses me. This is a real one though. Um this one. We're gonna do ten of them from between now and the end of the year. They're gonna be called not so sharp moments. And so what I need you guys all to do is very very very important, and Phil and I will be giving our are bumbling not so sharp moments in our lives. But we need you to write into th HC at the mediator dot com. That's th HC at the Mediator dot com and tell us sometimes that you're your disappointed performance while hunting we're doing things outside. We've all had bumbling moments. I have plenty of them. Let's celebrate failure here at the only collective and and work on those not so sharp moments. That's something that we're gonna be doing ten of them. So if you're write in, we'll happily feature you. We may even call you on the phone. You don't know, we don't know. We're swinging it. You won't know. You don't know. You won't know how we got your phone number. You'll just you'll get a phone call. I don't know. Phil has powers, man, Yeah, Phil can do it. So not so sharp moments send him in. They can be as long or as short as you please. I want to hear some funny, some fun lighthearted moments outside where you messed up. I got plenty. I know that every time I go hunting, there's one of these. In fact, the other day I went to UH podcast at Benno Williams's house and I forgot the podcast get So let's start with that. We got all the way there forty five minute drive not so sharp, not so sharp, no pretty dull um, But we ended up making it happen. So there's plenty of those, I'm sure out there th HC at the media dot com right in, please right in, we need you. So, without further ado, episode number eighty. I guess I grew up on an all the road to the meadal. I always did what I told until I found out that my brand new closes the game second hand from the rich kids next door, and I grew um bad like It's like, well, I mean, they have a thousand things inside in my head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted to real bad dream of being a lack. I'm coming a pot of the scenes. But thank you, Jack Daniel. No, no, everybody, episode eighty of the podcast coming at you. This is gonna be nine when you're listening to this baby. And um, hopefully I got the episode number right, Phil, because last time I said the episode number wrong. So well, if we if we did everything right, the listeners should have no idea. So go back and listen to go back and listen to episode seventy eight. Stop now we'll take a quick break. Insert the Jeopardy theme song. Yeah. Actually I didn'tell them what to listen for. But but when you go back, when you go back, listen to when I say episode seventy eight, and see if you can tell Phils wizard audio magic. Because I said the wrong episode number and I had to go back and record me and Phil were in here. I was going episode seventy eight. Uh huh are you did a bunch of different takes. Hopefully it works, So go back and listen to see if you can pick out that I'm totally faking it. Yeah, not enough white claw on the blood stream at that point. Not enough, but it was not in homeostasis. Just this, this is to me, just to let everybody know that all of this could be fake. Like Phil has enough audio skills that everything I say could be manipulated. It's like that Joe Rogan audio ye voice manipulator. Yeah you think you think all that Ben O'Brien a genius. That's probably what you've been thinking just lately, still making me sound. Yeah. Ben's actually going on vacation for two weeks, so every time you hear him talk, it's just it's it's an app. It's just AI. Yeah, that's all. So if you ever, if you ever feel like maybe they ca didence of my voices off, that's probably because I messed up and we had to go back and fix it. So I just want to let you a little behind the scenes content. We're here. They filled the big Bucks film makes the Medium Bucks. It's about right, and I get his commission podcast downloads. So how did you work that deal out? I just paid it up. Okay, cool, Yes, I go to I go to Phill's house and take something every week. Is this is news to me? But I'll get a security system reparations. Phil uh, we got Morgan Mason and everybody, how do how do? And Joe Fernada, Hey everybody, Um, Joe you have this is your only your second ever podcast. How are you feeling right now? I'm good. You did well last time. I didn't even know you told me afterwards. That was my first podcast. I was like, wow, like three minutes of fame on the Meat Eater podcast when I had to describe a pill. Well that's I mean, well, then you've been on. But you you weren't like featured, you weren't a feature speaker. Yeah, they just had me explain some stuff. Steve said my name wrong and so fair and tattoo Tatto that that's the little state nickname Tatto. Well, actually I heard you make a cameo appearance on the Rogan Pack podcast called Steve during but I called him back, calling all him back because he had called me. I missed his call and call I'm back. Better call Steve back because it's important. So now, like the famous Joe, how many times has Morgan Mace have been mentioned on the Joe Rogan podcast. Probably none. Well, I'm just gonna go cry in the corner now, so I'm irrelevant. Yep, it's You've been on probably the three best podcasts out there. Yeah, yeah, I think right, Phil, Yeah, Phil lash feels like anyway, Um, we're doing this on the heels of a wonderful blue grouse on. I guess you want to say blue grouse. It was a grouse on. We would have shot any grouse at the point that we were in I want to say mountain grouse. Mountain grouse on, that's probably a good way to say it. In the hill the mountains of outside Bows. Man, I weren't telling you where. I know you're thinking where. Where were you gonna tell you yes, to keep it secret. To keep it secret. Now, I went to my ex bot and shot a bunch of guns. You know, that's what you know. We're just trying to crowd him into the right area and we're trying to push him down into the private where I can't go. Um, but we went there and we we took your your gun dogs. I'll let you guys introduce your gun dogs to the show. They're not here, but you can just describe, tell the story of how you came to own these dogs. I'll let you go first. Morgan with with Mediator's original office dog. Yep. So I've been looking at bird dogs for quite a while, a couple of years, knowing that I was wanting to get one. Just needed to have my lifestyle settled down a little bit. So move up to Bozeman, got a job at meeting and I was like, hey, good great time for a dog. Actually got him a little bit before. But um, I picked up a Griff. My brother and I had been chatting for quite a while. Explain in Griff, explained Griff, because full name Joe has full name Joe has corrected me a few times on the way that I say these words and what the were the dogs to be? He's like, oh, dog, but you guys have sophisticated waste to speak about these dogs. It's important. Yeah, show's on fire, right, Yeah, he's very upset. So I have a wire haired, pointing Griffon. If you want to say, there an end at the end. Uh, there's an end at the end. Do you say, yeah, like pomp news bullshit? But Americans, Americans, we call him Griffs like a natural light beer as a natty light. That's right, Okay, we're too lazy to say the rest of it. I like Griff. I'm having a son here pretty soon. I would would name him Griff, and I'd be all right with it. What do you guys think, Griff O'Brien good work? I'm okay, yeah, I don't feel like real electrically. Just so on podcast, we'll have a contest or some shit about you. Okay, we'll have something to drive engagement around naming my son. Something really give away, some good Instagram. So that's some good Instagram. I gotta get the engagement. That's really what this is all about. Riff Hunter O'Brien, Danger, O'Brien, danger, Like like what you say anial name is Austin Powers, Austin Danger Powers. Um. Alright, so you got your griff all and uh you named opinion. Why'd you name him that? I kind of nerded out on the name. Did you ever ask Ben to guess? No, Ben, before you tell him, you should guess your first two, don't start. Don't start jumping in there second. No, it's a it's a great question because everybody I've heard him explain the name to like, they've all had to guess before. Opinion, Yeah, and nobody could get it in. You too, feel you're jumping in on this one, Phil. You do it, Phil, because I'm gonna get it wrong. Opinion, opinion, rack and pinion steering close. But no. Lots of people say that that's the second most guest. I have no idea. Okay, it sounds like that has to do with like something has to do like balance, Like it's a tool you use. Usually in Montana people name their dogs after like rivers and ship mountain ranges. All the dogs are like west Fork or the Salmon it's a long dog, or barretta yeah, something like opinion opinions opinion. The pinion. Feathers on a bird are the feathers on the wing that give it vertical lift. So when you're flushing a bird, they're using the pinion feathers likeance. I like that. That is good, it's good, just like gosh, yeah, I peeked on the well and yeah, well done. I I thought it was gonna be stupid, but that's not. That is great. My next dog is gonna be like Frank or something like that. Frank, what's that about? I don't know lot dogs? All right? Well, how old is is? Opinion? Opinion is about year and a half. In between a year and a half two years. Okay, Joe, let's we're gonna get the other thing. I'm gonna have other questions. But Joe tell us about Ferg. For so, the reason why I get passionate about, you know, the breeds and stuff, is because Ferg is a German wire hair pointer. So he looks almost identical opinion, as you can tell. But they're completely different breeds. Um. But so that's that's the big one there. And he just turned a year right before opening day this year. He's doing well. Yeah, he's doing good. He's doing very well. He kicked kicked ass, kicked a bird tail she's doing good now he has a six growl shot over him. Three homes and yeah, yeah are non dog owners, right, phil? Uh, technically I do own a dog now, but I like, let's not get technical. It's not a dog. What do you do with it? I look at it if it looks hungry, I dropped some food on the ground, birds around. No, it's ah, it's she's an Australian kelpie. It's a hurting dog, very full of energy, and I am too scared to Yeah she could um, but yeah, I didn't grow up my She's more my wife's dogg than mine, which said it sounds like a mean thing to say. I do love her, She's very sweet. But I I didn't grow up with dogs, though, so I don't really have that kind of attachment either. Man. I had one dog growing up. Its name was Ross, and it was batshit crazy, mean crazy, like I had no the things that did make made no sense to anyone. It would just stand by the door in wine for days days. It had a mental disorder of some kind. And that was really the only dog I've ever had. Had a girlfriend that had a pit bull one time, um, and I live with the pit bull and it just I just remember mostly farts from the dog, and that's it really, uh my only real dog experience. Now, you know, I've got some young sons, so I'm gonna have to get a dog eventually. So a lot of this for me is just a little bit of research, like what dogs should I get? Um? So as a non dog goinger, I would like to understand the relationship that you guys have to these dogs and watching them work. Joe yesterday was more concerned or more like what he's trying to get out of the hunt was not grousemeat. It was watching his dog work and watching the progress that this dog had made over training and time and work, um, And that was the real reward. So that's something I think all folks that are hunters and maybe don't have dogs or upland hunters that don't have dogs, or you know, I haven't trained a dog from a puppy and understand they just don't understand. They don't understand the reward of seeing that all that work coming to fruition on a hunt like that. So who wants to take that? Who wants to try to explain that? Which one of you? Both of you jump in. I've like I feel the same way on that. It's like there's a certain aspect that I love going out and upland hunting. But at the same time, now that I own a dog and I put training into my dog and I've done all this work with him, the more bird exposure I can possibly give that dog to drive his natural instinct and get him going, the better off that dog is going to be in. The happier that dog is going to be, um, the better it's going to be in the field. So yeah, the more time that you can get out there and just enjoy that, and like that just shows like as I goes over time and that dog starts to response to the bird and they start to learn birds, and not only like learn how to bird hunt, but learn how to bird hunt certain species. A pheasants going to react differently than a mountain grouse, like a blue grouse, And so to see that dog being able to like be on the tail of a pheasant and be able to sweep around it and block it before it starts to run too far. And so that way you can close a distance in between the dog and the pheasant and get that flush to see those sort of things happening is just incredible. So to see that dog click um through different experiences is it's an awesome thing to see you. Yeah, and it's great. I mean the hunt that we did yesterday, you can you could do that hung without dogs, but boy, it's gonna suck. Um. There's such a good I mean, you hate to reference him as a tool, but that's in this in this case there you know, a tool for better hunting, but that's not really the point. And I think you know for yesterday, he kicked he just kicked ass. I mean he we were in some pretty tough conditions. It was wet, the birds, A lot of the birds we feel like it's certainly early in the morning, we're up in a tree or didn't want to didn't want to flush, they'd rather just run um. And we we had a lot of instances where we probably could have done better, and fer showed us up. Oh yeah, definitely. Like that was one thing that I was super proud of it. When we got down on that first covey of birds, any pointed the one in the tree that we couldn't get our safeties often time to shoot um. But stuff like that, like Morgan said, when a dog starts to figure out the birds cifically that you're hunting at that time. It's really cool because they're they're learning at the same time. And when when you've been going through all this training, I mean since I brought for a home has been just like constant training. Everybody asks it's like, how many hours a day do you put in on training? It's it's not an hour count, it's a round the clock. You're always training him. Anytime they're with you, they're they're being trained type of thing. And watching him work in the field like that and figuring out that, oh, I smell this bird, but it's up in the tree, so I'm gonna point a bird in the tree. It's it's awesome, it's super cool. Yeah. It becomes a whole culture around Upland hunting and certainly our interview guests that's coming up is Ben oh Williams. He's eighty one years old and he's awesome and he is renowned for many things within the Upland world, dog training being one of them, um Western Upland hunting tactics and just kind of being a voice for that culture. Uh. And it's an interesting one because it brings in the dogs so strongly it brings in, Um, there's just a different look of an up of a guy who's just endo upland hunting. We talk about, uh, the waterfowl hunter, the typical to typified at least waterfowl hunt in our world, and there's there's also a very stereotypical upland guy from from years past. Um, I think, can you go into that stereotype? But no, I don't want to tweet like that old white guys with that are wearing or us. But but but I think Ben and you'll hear some of his stories, you know, brings to light how kind of that culture, what what it means to own a dog and to to train a dog and have that be a big part of your life, because it's certainly while learning to alcohol or so some of these other things become part of your life. You know, by getting a pet for this purpose or primarily for this purpose or in some vein for this purpose takes over a pretty big part of your life. I mean, you guys can speak to that, like you have you own a gun dog? Never they don't. You don't never get to take a break from it. It's a commitment. So I'm sure I meaned for either of you. I mean, I'm sure it's much more rewarding to see that all work out. Yeah, And that goes back into the training aspect and looking at what Ben's done in his life and like how he looks at training dogs, And that's what I've tried to implement. It is like get your basic obedience done, do all that in the backyard, haven't respond when you're trying to call him back in all of that, all the basic stuff. But then when you take that dog out in the field, just let it hunt and just hunt that dog as much as you can, and that dog will learn how to bird hunt due to birds and getting that wild sit in his face, how the birds reacts. Just like you can put birds in a launcher and go play around like that'll that'll work to help the point and all that. But to really get a dog going, like just take it out and hunt it. Yeah, That's that's one thing I've learned from Ben or ben O Williams to damn thing ship for Ben Brod ben O Williams, Um, Yeah, I think a big part of talking to a guy like that who's who's lived is learning learning those little idiosyncrasies, right learning you know not only the stories he has about the relationships with these dogs, but exactly what to look for when you're out there, what to look for for success with the look for for failure, what's to look on for workable teachable moments. I think all of that you learned from ben Um, and then it just it colors a little bit more of a hunt. And when we were out there yesterday, you can look at different aspects of the way the dogs are working, the way they're succeeding or failing, and just adds a little bit more to the hunt, that's for sure. Yea, absolutely, it's funny. I was actually talking to Danielle pruitt Um yesterday. She uh, she's looking at doing a hunt up in up here in Montana. A little bit later on, she's just like, I can't bring my dog up. I want to come like hunt sharp tails, Like what do I do? And I was just like, you know what, I have never ever in my life gone on a bird hunt without a dog. I was like, I don't know what to tell you. Bring your dog. I figured that one out. Bring your dog. No, It's just it adds the experience. I enjoy, enjoy the YESA we did we How many times do we miss? Joe? Do we miss any? I shot once yesterday and I missed. Yeah, I shot three times. Yeah, and he shot one bird that's up on top of the ridge. When I split off from you guys, an artillery range going on down below. I feel like I might have shot maybe four or five times. I only shot once because I know on that hail Mary shot that I missed. The gun jammed up. Oh yeah, and I was just like, what's going on? So we had we had one weak split up from Morgan More. We went up the ridge and we kind of went down the road and and down into this little cut face. I mean, we're in a pretty steep, uh ridgeline that we're going around the corner, and of course Fer drops down into this real brushy little meadow that that drops off. He gets down in there, he flushes one out of a tree. So we dropped down kind of getting close to him, and at some point we're going back up the hill. He runs in front of us and flushes what three three grouse at first just the just the one took off and one took off first and flew and these things like he locked up back on point and yeah, I was like, oh, he must be when they can smell on the one bird right there, when they get up in the air. When these girls get up in the air in these steep ridges, they take off, they take off, and they soar to who the hell knows We're so you kind of really have one shot at them, you know, some other upland game, not in a mountain situation, you know, not in this kind of steep country. You can flush him and wash where they land and possibly if they're not just going to run off, get back on him. In this case, you kind of have one shot. And in the scenario where we were in, it's gonna probably be a pretty long one. Um. And so yeah, the first the first, the first bird is a pretty long shot. We both cracked off at it, missed it. I think at least four times, if not three times. He just kept on a soaring And then we were kind of comparing notes about that and talk to each other, and and of course dogs still point dog dog is he's over there on point and I'm and I literally said the bend. I was like, oh, look, he must be on old tan over there, and I looked back over and he's just sitting there. And then four more birds flush. What's that old san Jo? Trust your dog? Trust you don't always trust your bird dog. Always trust your bird dog. Yeah, we Um, I don't know that we didn't trust him. We were just being We're just focused about our miss and and by the time I got my shotgun. But the fact when the one that we we killed flushed, I wasn't sure if I had loaded my shotgun, but I shouldered it anyway. It's like the safety off anyway. I'm like, well, there's no I'm not gonna be able to load it. So even if I didn't, I'll throw her up and give her a click. But he flushed a fifth grouse out of the same area. He kind of flew towards us, and I popped him and he dropped and that was our initial bird. And then Morgan cracked another one later on. Um, and I feel it's a three three bird a day limit per person, right, so um, you're not out there. We could have shot nine as makes we have shot. They're pretty big birds. I UM, I cook my breasts up last night, just put them over rice. It's pretty good, pretty good. But we do have a fully plucked when we gonna figure out what we're gonna do with what do you go? You have plans for that? You? I've been thinking about that. I mean the easiest thing in my mind is just like toss that thing on the smoker and it's gonna be delicious, especially since it's got the skin still on it. But I'm gonna talk to Danielle and see, yeah, stuff it was something, Yeah, do something fancy with it. She does really good with all that. Me I'm just like, maybe I'll put some ketchup on it. The last night my wife said, are you gonna I'm not gonna under the throw it in a cast iron skillet and put it over rice and it was great. Man. Well I use that fins and feather up from trigger on that stage grouse and kept it whole. Uh put it on the grill. Oh man, it was good. Explain spatch cocking, Joe. It half the bird basically, just so you could lay it on the grill so it cooks more evenly than to putting the whole bird On't still the whole bird, but you're like cut down the back of it and like open it up. Yeah, so you just kind of like play it open. Yeah I have actually, yeah, you have what have you? Slash cock like a corners game head? Yes, exactly, really yeah, I mean one that I just bought from the store. I didn't I didn't get it with the bird dog your dog what's the dog's name? Mango? Boy, that is unfortunate. It's a slightly cooler than Pinion, don't you guys think? Boy, your dog name is Mango. She's a sweet pup. It's his favorite. Your fan club is gonna either be I think your fan club might even be into it. Phil. There's a lot of it says something about both the people that right end like feels awesome. Keep Phil. But they're gonna hear this part and they're gonna have to have a real serious decision to make to keep, whether you keep, whether to keep as a part of your fan club, or you just get This is the point where they got to get off the train. The filterin My wife likes to name She wanted to name it after a food, so she made this list probably like fifty names of different like spices and ship and this is my dog Cuban. Yeah, honestly, that might have been on the list. No, joke. Really, Yeah, I just learned about this dog named Kayak, and I just like every time I hear they've been talking about I'm just like, Oh, they're gonna put the Kayak on the roof. I was like, Oh, no, that's a dog like that. Something another in animate objects, my dog food processor. Yeah, you had a list of foods. Uh huh yeah, why was I don't know what was like? What was some of the plan BC. Honestly, I think like pep Riko was on there. That's way too many. Uh yeah, that's way too much. Yeah, anything else. Cayenne that that's kind of a good a little bit different. But you somehow landed on mango. Mango she I don't know, she's got an energy. I'm very much on board opinion at this point. But Mango. She's completely black too, so she looks nothing like like a bright, brightly colored no, but she's got the personality of a mango. That makes sense, right, exactly hard you're trying to cut up a mango that you gotta take like a sledgehammer to him. It's terrible anyway, that's a terrible dog's name. Um Phil And I'm sorry if that's offensive, but just are you what are you feeling? We don't approve. I'm not offended at all. I personally like to meet it. I like to meet Mango and this and spend some time around her and just maybe I would change my mind. But for right now. Yeah, if they're yeah, I may bring her in some day, but um, it's probably not gonna happen. No, she is, yeah, she we We picked her up from the shelter across the past and Livingston, and she had a she was just she was a stray on an Indian reservation before we so we have no idea what her life was like before we got her. I'm gonna hold them, Okay, tell the story now. Um, when my family decided to adopt rescue a dog, we went over the Bozeman Pass to the nearby town of Livingston, Montana, the Stafford Animal Shelter, lovely people. Um we went to actually go meet a different dog, but Mango. When we met her, we couldn't say no. After hearing her life story of growing up stray on the Fort Peck Indian Reservation, having to you know, fight for food and and love, we wanted to bring her home a beau and uh have her be a part of our family. Just take a moment. Just listen to Sarah. Yeah, there I go. She's still alive. She's not dead. Better, she's living a healthy she's only about two and a half years a pre Mango. This is this is this is dark all right. That's got the ceremonials in the YouTube videos got ten well as a hundred million views on that baby, and it's it's all from podcasters who bring up bring up the song to play people that are very sad and just want to cry at home by themselves. Here's a good way to be as active with THHC right in about the name Mango, and tell me what you think, and tell me if I'm being too mean to fill and because a lot of you people think that I mean to fill and it's not. It's not mean, it's just you know, opinionated. Yeah, sure, I'm I'm totally fine with it. You're see. Yeah, there's a sadness and he every night there's a sadness he feels. It comes over for reparations. I'm taking this film, taking this ashtray. Fine, fine, Mr, I'm leaving leaving with this um anyway back to bird Dogs, do you think we would ever get Mango on a hunt, she would have the time of her life. It would just be it would be a matter of getting her energy level she is. She would be so wired, she would be It would take some training, for sure, but she would love it. What's her pre drive? Like? She like cats? Does she like that? Like we have? We have cats in our home as well. Is there any photos of her on your Instagram? Uh? You know, I don't think so, which says, I'm sure you do. Let me see. It might take a while. How about you guys talk and I'll try to find something picture Mango. Oh, we'll just do a interlude. Then I would like to comment on how great of an actor you are. I was crying. You were legitimately that I was what what he was telling the manga store, I was legit tearing up. I had to get into like the why Mango, I gotta dig in there. You should just head to Hollywood right now. I was really a very good angle. They took him from above. But um, but that's that's Mango. Mango. Let me help describe. I need to find a cuter, a cuter picture, more adorable. Yeah that's not I mean, she's frolicking. She looks at this Spanish peak wilderness. She looks a little bit apprehensive. Uh. She has like a kind of a short legs. Yeah, a tale unimpressive tail. Jet black, yes, jet black like the night wym picturing black quarky right now, I don't see the picture right now, just like a short face like a ding go. Okay, let me let me find act. Dingo is is a good? That is good? That's my family had Australian cattle dog. What do you think, Joe, I think that that bird would flush a grouse? Or that dog? Um? Well, that dog? Yeah, I think I think she definitely flush a grouse, but just might be a little too far off shot at it does? She does? Mango? Listen to you, Phil, like if you would say, oh, yeah, for sure, here we come. Yeah yeah, all right, good, that's all you really need. Do you have any commands that you give her? Not a whole lot, I mean, just the basics. What the don't eat the garbage? Yes, all right, Well we're gonna get off to do you think we we covered off on bird dogs? We're gonna get off to. Ben O Williams. Ben O Williams has a great famous dog Winston that he he's wrote some some pretty amazed. I was reading it last night. It's a pretty amazing. It was about um Morgan. You're a big fan and a featured bent on some some stuff. Kind of describe what he means to the Upland community before we get to him. Oh man, he is like the like the grandfather of Upland, I guess you could say of all things Upland. He's just like he's such a kind soul, a great hunter. He's just like I think he's been described as like the dog master of Zen or something like that. Just he just enjoys every aspect of life. And like I like his little motto that he's gotten. He just wrote a book called Best Day Yet, and that's like his everyday motto is best day yet. Everything has cherished, everything is appreciated. Like this is the guy that everybody wants for their grandfather sort of guy. So I would agree, he's definitely agree. Amazing guy. You hear you hear a guy like that. His reflections on life and now, how big a role maybe I think a little bit different than other folks, but how big a role? You know, dogs specifically bird dogs and up and hunting has been in this man's life. And to see how good of a person and how well rounded he is and well, you know, well spoken and intelligent, and it makes you want to you know, dig into that culture and like this this guy is the center point of that culture. There's something to it because he is a wonderful dude. I just I want to be around him all the time and just be a sponge and just try and absorb as much as I possibly can from him. Yeah, I've got I've um. Often listeners will write in that I like to interview old dudes because I've I've We've had a lot of you know a lot of legends. I feel like Jim pozzlwits on there and and and others. Um. But I just I just feel like when you get somebody like that, I mean it may sound melodramatic, but like that, this is a treasure. This dude is, you know, to to record his thoughts on upland hunting. Um is something that that we should really cherish because, um, he may not be around that much longer. If you ask him, he'll probably be around for another twenty years. Yeah, it's talking about like his age. It was funny. I was listening yesterday, like we were supposed to go like directly over to Ben's after the after the hunt, but we uh, our height got a little delayed to to like up and down on all around chasing birds typical way that a bird hunt goes. But Um, hearing from Ben just like it's like, yeah, the afternoons really don't work for me. You know, I'm I'm older. I just don't want to talk to people in the afternoons. All right. I appreciate that when you turn eighty, like you can just not you know, you give a ship factor, can just just go, can can decrease to whatever you'd like it to be, like two thirty pm, it's cocktail or I'm turning off. All right, Well we're gonna get to Ben. Um, thanks for sharing Mango with this film. Yeah that was the highlight. Yeah of course, Yeah, that's really it. You think Mango would ever want to come and then sit in on a podcast? Oh yeah. She wants nothing more than to be around people and to please um. But she wants sometimes she wants it too much and she can't control herself and she has a breathing fit because she gets too excited. All too excited. This is the kind of energy that she has. Film before we go, Okay, here we go, Here we go. Before we go, I would like you to describe the first time that you saw man, like the first time you looked in her eyes and knew that she was yours. Okay, let's take a quick We are actually visited the Stafford Animal Shelter to see a different dog, Um, a little uh terrier that was possibly left by a circus that ran through. But that dog didn't really want anything to do with us. Yeah, you're not a clan. But as we were watching this other dog play, Mango joined the fray and she the clouds split a little bit raised sunshine exactly. Thank you Joe Joe for the commentary. Um, if you guys have any more commentary, Dad, Mango um pranced over to us, laid her lap, her head, laid her head in my lap, Um, and much like Ben was tearing up several minutes ago, I also, um had tears streaming down my face, those big brown eyes looking up UM. That part may not be true. Most of these details aren't true. Part about the circumstance, That part is Uh. We brought her home, Um, she's great. Really, wrap that one up. Alright, good job. I want to know about this terrier now circus I hope not. I feel bad leaving it. I would have it like we have a bit of a budget for THHC. We could get a dog, a circus dog, a circus dog. When you get a THHC dog, new mascot. Huh, they can get sponsored by something. I like dogs. Yeah, you can name it white claw. That's a pretty good dug man. That's actually a pretty We can go to a shelter and find a white dog or a black dog with a white paw. Mike, drop them out. I have forgot to check the quality of this podcast. It's gone down there. All right. We're gonna go to let me said Montana. We're gonna check in with a true legend, somebody that we are very lucky to know and have to sit down with. His name is Ben L. Williams. Enjoyed. I guess I grew up on an Alder road. Ben. How are you? I'm doing great? Yeah, two bends. That's we call it a fine name. Um, well, thanks for having me in your home. I really appreciate you're having me here. Oh good, I appreciate you coming and I always like to visit with you guys. Yeah, well we've we've got a lot to talk about, a lot, a lot to cover. But I first like to have guests try to explain their surroundings because I think it's good for the listener to understand, like where we are and what well exactly up to? And uh, I think for a writer who focuses on bird, dogs and upland honey and shotguns, your office is perfect. It's got just about everything it needs to have. So describe people kind of your surroundings were sitting in your office and and kind of give people away of the land in here. Okay, Um, several years ago, I used to have a bulletin board basically, uh, with a lot of pictures and etcetera. So, but over the years I got so crowded I decided take all those photographs down and put up some of my paintings that I received from friends and or bought in So, uh, I'm kind of lacking on pictures, but um, I really I really liked my I call this my office basically, and and uh not only being a bird hunter, but I'm also I'm very fascinated as a bird biologist, and I'm I'm a field biologist, and I like to study game birds. So to study game birds, basically the important thing is to have a really a good library. And if you look around here you can see I think possibly, I'm not exactly sure, but I think I probably have one of the largest libraries of upland game birds in America. I'm on In fact, I'm I'm not sure of it. I have I have documents said are these are? These are thesis and papers written, and I have chest about every single book on hunting birds and bird ecology, American game bird shooting about George Bird Cornell up there, I see. The oldest book I have is UH, written eighteen fifty three, and I have a lot of them in the nineteen ten I have UH. I have game management, Leah Poel's books, his Round River Book. So I'm I'm a real I'm a real student of of learning about game birds. That's it's not just going out there and shooting birds. And I always felt to be a good game bird hunter you should have a bird dog. So that's why I get very involved and with raising good bird dogs. And there's there's a lot of we talk about writers. You know you've written how many books? Dozens? Dozens. I have written fifteen books and five of those are with other authors, so and maybe sixty. I don't know, Like it doesn't make any difference. Councils countless articles for Covey Rise, you've written, I'm sure for Pheasants forever over the years. I point Dog Journal. I wrote for my for them for thirty years. In fact, I just retired writing from them this year just um, uh, just because I thought that thirty years was probably enough for that magazine. And and then I worked for a gray sporting journal. I worked for Shooting Sportsman, some other smaller magazines and uh I the only one I write for right now full time is actually Cubby Rise. And uh. I also have written a little bit for Tyler Sharp for his for Monde as well. Yeah, lovely title. Um there is. There's a lot of things, but I think just in general to to kind of color what you mean to the upland community. I mean, there are we're talking before we hit record ruggers like Tom Kelly in the Turkey Hunting World, Nash Buckingham and the Waterfowl World. You have the likes of Robert Ruark and Hunting Africa. Um, I would would easily place you within that, you know, pantheon of of writers that are seminal to the pursuit, you know, for you for for sporting dogs, for upland game, and for shotgunning. Even so, um, you're you're right there alongside of of the grades. I think it it just shows a commitment to the culture. But I appreciate to start out with a compliment to get your Really it's a warm you up to get your going. But uh well, probably when it comes to Hungarian partridge, I I'm the only one that's every written in North America on Hungarian partridge. There was another book written in England completely different than mine, but since then I think, uh Givel Dean wrote a kind of kind of a history of his philosophy of of bird honey, but completely different than my My hunt book is a good example is it's called Huns and hunt Hunting. It's a hit, it's about their history, habits, and it's a complete book on n hunting. If you want to learn about hunt hunting, that is a book you want to take with you because I put that is fifty years of work of that and and your writing career spans that long, right, spans fifty How many years? Well, let's go back. I started basically hunting in for huns. That's when I if you want to count that first day in nineteen fifty five. So from nifty five to now is it's a lot of years. We don't need to count them. Where neither of us are math math majors. Um, that's pretty close to sixties, so we'll call it sixty. Get around. I think it's you know, and we again talking before the podcast started, about why it is that you found yourself, you know, so ingratiated, so enamored with not only huns, but Brittany's and the type of hunting that you like to do. And this isn't something that you fell in love with yesterday. You've been doing it for the better part of your entire life. UM, so we should. I think I like to get to tell those wise started at the very beginning kind of your first introduction to bird hunting or upland hunting, or the first time you saw it, the first time that um kind of entered your mind is something you might want to do. The first time, you know, in my mind was when I was in second grade when I went with my grandfather and uh, my mother let me skip a day of school, and I was extremely fascinated with be with him and actually going out and walking back then an old railroad tracks looking for birds. And he was originally from England, and he talked about the hunting over there, and he really enjoyed hunting, and he would often bring up and he called me his bird dog because a little kid, and I'd go in there and break brush for him, and he would he he would talk about having a bird dog that find birds, and that's fascinated me. A little later than a probably in the junior high year, I happened to get up, uh Springer spaniel or a family got a Springer Spaniel from some people from Chicago that that the dog needed to be in the country and leave. I lived in the country, um and U, so we got the Springer Spaniel. Later on I found out it was gunshy, but anyway, so I would take I called him Mike the Dog, just just because the fact when I was a little kid in school and I could always tell my schoolmates that I had a dog and and his name was Mike the Dog. So that and I just called him Mike the dog. And and I used to walk the railroad text to school and he used to follow me. And then when I got out of school, he would come and meet me and would walk back and with the hunt together. So and then I it was interesting because I really him when I didn't know anything about dogs or you know, just being a young person. And the first time when the season finally opened, the first time I went out and got him and went out, god, I think it was a couple of peasants and pheasants got up and a shot. He ran all the way back home, and it really upset me, and and so I went all the way back home and and he was happy to see me, but I knew that he was really scared of the gun. So but it took about a year to work it out, and I just would go out and I would never shoot close to him, and finally we would kind of only run halfway home and then come back. Then we got closer and closer. So we that that particular bond of having a bird dog, I think, and chasing birds, especially we as a pheasant. But but but quail also I think that really probably it was that was a key factor that I got so in loud with birds and bird dogs. And right after that, just after high school, I just was right into the service four years and just as soon as I got out, and like I said, I went to I went to n YU for a year and then move back to Illinois. Would go to Northern and the first thing I want to do is get a bird dog and hunt. So that's kind of how And it's funny with bird dogs we're talking about like what hunting over a dog, you know, whether water fowler, upland or whatever, squirrels doesn't really matter. What that adds the hunting experience? Like what you get to not only have your own experience, but you get the you know, one you're training the dog, you're working with the dog. What what does hunting over a dog add to the experience? I mean, he said, that's what really, that's what really connected you to hunting. But like, what do you how would you explain that to? Um? Well, first off, I don't think I would ever hunt without a dog. I mean, it was just it's that simple. Um, I think years ago I used to hunt what waterfowl a little bit jump shooting a waterfowl, but still to have a water dog or a duck dog. It was very important to me, and I must say that I wouldn't hunt birds if if I didn't have dogs. And an even that my age age right now is when I first started shooting and killing birds was very was very important, like all of us young folks do. That's pretty natural. But I think eventually you're finding the tour and the killing of the bird is very not very important anymore. In fact, I don't even like to kill birds anymore. I just that's a that's an interesting point. I've I've talked to a lot of folks that are have been doing I have been hunting for a lot of years, and it's not uncommon to have that sentiment where you're you've hunted, you've kind of mastered the craft in a way, or mastered as much as you believe that you can, and then the killing becomes, at some point in your life a different thing. In fact, I'm even I've even cutting the point pot bout the last ten fifty years. I'm even a little squeamish about killing a bird. To be honest with you, that do you even think, like if you would talk to your third year old self that you could explain that concept to to that thirty three year old or thirty five year old guy you said you he told me before we hit record that you were hunting every single day of the season for huns when you first moved out west. Do you think you could talk to that that guy and explained to him where you are now in life? Oh? I think so. I think. Uh. I think when you hunt a tremendous amount of time, like I have and even even written a lot about it, I be there comes a time when the actually killing of the bird, it becomes less and less important, and the most important thing is watching the dogs point, seeing the dogs work, and then having the experience of the flush. And it's really um I would honestly say that there many many times, in fact, more times now than not. Is I just raised the gun up and just say bang, you're dead. I guess say bang you're dead. Did they fly away? And they call that counting coup and the it's own cultures? Yeah, that there was another. Folks that listen to the show, we'll hopefully know that we had a gentleman named Wyman menser On from He lives in Benjamin, Texas and he's a famed writer on coyotes and kirite ecology, and he's a photographer. Um excribed described to me the same him kind of idea when he got into his seventies, he started taking pictures um instead of killing and and it's a it's a common theme that I've found. Well, that's exactly what I did. I mean, I just we're talking about. The year I retired was eighty six, and I did. I shot a lot of game birds. I'm not going to mention how many, but uh, more than my share. And I honest, they say. And the next year I carried the camera. I think I only wound up that year shoot him sixteen huns. And uh. I started photographing when we had slides and he had a roll of thirty six, and you had to be very careful what we're doing, Okay. In other words, there were times and I always had night cons and I like big fast cameras, the fastest I could get. And when you had a road of thirty six, you have to be very careful when you gotta rise of birds because you didn't want to run out with the best shots and so forth. So I was not conservative, but I was very aware of that and and my files right now, I can't tell you exactly, but I have fairly close to fifty slides and I have fileousand files kept. The nice thing about it is I can I can still use them. In fact, this this that cover right there is my photograph. So we're looking at the Pheasants Forever cover as a Yeah, had Bob White do the cover, uh to the painting and that's uh that would this was taken in I think in about eight seven eight. I'm not sure. I would have to look it up. I could um. One one thing about the photography I mentioned is that it kind of replaces a gun. It's a it's kind of a neat thing to be able to come back and take your slides and look at them all and you know, but using slides back there was a lot of work because you have to send him in. You gotta wait for him, you gotta put him on a light table, you gotta look at him all, start throwing them away when you finally found the good one. It's quite the reward that's most is a lot easier nowadays. And I and it has only been I can't remember now, maybe ten years at the most, when when digital first came out. I didn't want anything to do with it basically, and it was new then, and I got that nice slide equipment. I got two big nikons and big lenses and and uh slides or digital photography. But I did well. But but I've never done it like I did with slides. Yeah, well that goes to you know, what we are and a lot of things we were talking about earlier again that you've seen, you've pioneered a few things here in the West um and then you've seen, you know, five decades, six decades of change from when you were said you were one of the first people in this we're here in the Shields Valley and Levi since Montana. You were one of the first folks to even desire to hunt huns in this in this valley, or even to bring a Brittany over here. There was nobody. There was absolutely nobody when I arrived. Yeah, what year is it that you arrived? What do we say? I think I started hunting in sixty two. Nobody had a bird dug. They had they had duck dogs, labs and so for nobody even heard of pointing dogs. And where I was hunting, and back in those days. Yep, the land wasn't posted. You could hunt, so I would die a little Volkswagen. Then I'd take my Volkswagen actural school and put my three dogs, loaped them up and would take off and hunt. And I'd go up to Shields, Nike and hunters any place I wanted. And then it kind of the word kind of got around it. There was just crazy school teacher with these fuzzy dogs and there's little blue Volkswagon chasing these impossible birds. And you you there's a lot of things that you did in that in those years that were very unique for this this part of the world, but huns being maybe the most unique. Um. You you were just telling me a story about one of the local game wardens who had never even really sold a license to anybody for for bird hunting, and he was he was dumbfounded that you would even that you didn't want a big game license or you didn't want to you didn't want to pay for the big game tag. Yeah, so did you at the time, did you feel like a pioneer? You're just doing something that you wanted to. I think that's a good word, pioneer, but I never thought of it that way. Uh. The other thing that that that the other thing that may really contributed to my hunting of Hans is I used to love to walk, and I was very physical and walking. And once I started hunting those those huns, my dogs, my dogs did not range out a lot. I was. I was so used to hunting the little the little amount of time I had him to hunt in very close. Then I started to study hans and worked them and found out that we got to cover country in big country. And then when I first started, I was just hunting agricultural country. Then I found out basically that when I was in prairie country, it was just as good. And I was told, what, they don't occupy prairie country, and I proved them completely wrong. So the questions you were being asked, why would you hunt these things and they don't live there, And then you're out there every single day of the season, you know, all the any rancher I would talk and I'd stop in and say, you know, I want a fellow. I stopped in and said, like to hunt those and he's I said, Hi, he's, oh, I've never heard these. He said, there's some little chickens out there. He said, Is that what you're talking about? I said, yeah, he said, some big chickens out there, some little chickens. He was talking about huns and sharp tails. He said, nobody hunts him big chickens and little chickens. You, he said, have at it. He said, lots of lot Did you had lots of did you when you first started? Did you did you think, do you have goals to hunt every day of the season, or did you have goals to to raise as many Brittany's and breeds as Brittanys as you could? Or do those things develop over time? Yeah? I think I had an agenda. I think I got I think I think when I started, I, uh my first couple of years of hunting hunts, I never thought I would basically really develop a real desire to hunt them. And because I back then I used to win the pheasants season, I went hunt pheasants too, But over the years, I I didn't want to hunt pheasants anymore. And basically and I loved, I love to run the dogs on stage grouse. And when I was first here, their stage grouse were everywhere and we would shoot a few, uh we call them purye bombers. And that's and that's what they were. They were wonderful birds and and in sharp tales. Back then when I first started hunting in they're what they're basically was not as many sharp tails. I think sharp tails actually over the years of the population is expanded. Yeah, well, it strikes me that we're talking about hans and we're not really explaining for for folks that have never hunted them or seen them. This take folks through from even from an ecologist or biology standpoint, like take people through what a hunt is, where it lives. Kind of give people the rundown of that bird, because they're an interesting bird, even if they are a little chicken. A lot of people know about Bob white quail, and basically I I always kind of thought him as nothing but big Bob white quail that had there their range about five times bigger or more than Bob whites. So the first thing, the first thing I wanted to do learn they're habits in habitat, which is very important. Habits came first, habitat came second. And to learn that you didn't get that out of a book was because nobody had written about him, basically, so I had to go out and be a field biologists and learned one thing I did. It was like kept a diary couple of log marked them down, marked every covey I ever found. After after a few years of hunting them, and later on and mark the covey's named the coveys or and I named that in my book. I just in the article I just wrote I one that one. I still call him the same name as called the the Burnt Tree covey. I've handed the Burnt Tree cubby for almost forty years, um, and I name him. I main so any time I find a new covey of hans on a particular location, I would always look around and make a note a piece of landmark that would associate with that covey, like the the waterfall covey. And just named a few of them, you know, learned those covees of where they were. I would go back and then figure out their range. And there was one time. Most of the times when you find a covey, I used to pursue them. I mean you have to, you have to, you have to be a real foot soldier. And uh, most of the times I would get a flush marked them best I could. And you always wanted. You always want to watch the last bird or the sleeper, which I called the last if a cuvey gets up and in a single gets up, but watch that bird because just like just like a kid in the gymnasium, the slowest kids always going to cut the corners. Okay, it's the same way. Was a corner cutter. But he would do is he had watched the covey and then he had cut the quarter, and you you knew exactly there they were going to make hook the right or left at So then I would I got so the point that I could basically I could basically pursue a single cuvey huns and jumped him four or five times. And there was one time I had this sign my in my journal. There was one time I I had my dogs point and flushed a covey the same covey. Eleven jumps. Took me three hours and never cut a feather, never cut a feather, never got close enough to get a name. That covey an important covey to name. I do that. How do you stick with a covey like that? Over forty years, even as I mean over forty years of landscape changes, the habitat the landowners. All these things change and you're still you know with that same covey of of huns over forty years, that that location of Cuvey's pretty much. In fact, it's interesting one of my marked cuvees. I know, and I get a point. I know where they're going to fly before they do. I know the direction. And if I'm younger, if I'm with another hunter, I could always make myself get in a position that I had the advantage. You look over there, my dad used to that to be growing up, look over there and over here, like and hans are hans are runners too, and people were so a sharp tail, but all game groups sore blue grouse by way much so I got a video of a blue grouse on Sunday that just you tell me quo babawe quailor too. And so when hans, hans are just like sharp tails and sage grouse, prairie game birds all stay together and kind of running with a pattern. But if you keep pursuing them and they keep running, the dogs point and break and point and break, and you have to you can't. If you have a dog steady to wing and shot, I got your dog is gonna be half a mile on back here before it breaks. So you gotta so you just you develop dogs at point and break and believe it or not if you later, especially later on the year, when the birds really get get smart and learned how to avoid you. When you're pursuing a tubby of himes, eventually they will start to peel off and try to get around and back here. They'll try to get down the wind of the dogs. That's just like a smart elk or something. But I don't think people realize that. But I've seen that happen with sage grouse dard all the time. They'll get a bunch of sage grouse years ago. Pretty soon you're walking. When you get to the end, one gets up and you did, and they just have learned, have been conditioned to where are the rest of them gone? They're all kind of peeling off and going around and back here. Yeah. You know, for anyone that might look at n hunting or upland hunting in general and think there's no like, there's no intricacies or nuances, or I need a dog just flushes the bird and you shoot it, this conversation should dissuade you have that idea that there are nuances to bird hunting, their nuances to understanding each bird, each piece of habitat like and and what your writings teach are are those little idiosyncrasies, the little things that you have to know to be good at. That's great. Yeah, There's another thing I've studied is that um huns basically, a covey of huns will usually nest in a certain area, um that that particular covey, and I always kind of think of that as sleeping blanket. So when they're really pushed, where they go is to where they they think they have the most protection. So many times when I flush a covey of huns and they start making more than one flush, they will use to go back to their roosting side. Yeah. Um, they they they have a basically I call it this a big circle or a big oval that they and they're locked into that. Once they get to that into that oval, the circle, they're gonna come back. That's why sometimes when you pursue them, all of a sudden they flush and they're coming back over your head, is because they want to go back home. I mean, they have and that's called I named a cruising range that cruising range as a as a winner approaches as or fall continues, that particular range will expand a little bit, uh if if the food source runs out. But you can't really visualize it as a circle. You've got to visualize it as kind of a I just kind of call it like an oval. But but I know that discovery is only going to go that way so far, and they're they're coming back or over here there. That makes sense. I think, you know, it's starting to think about like how the dog works into the equation. How Brittany's. Let's go back to the first time you thought of having We talked about this a little bit already, but the first time you thought of having a Brittany as a bird dog or a gun dog, however, you would describe it like you saw Brittany or experienced it and thought that's the one. Because there's there's a lot of characteristics about Brittany's that they're kind of every man's dog. They're very relatable, they're hard working. You know, they're not the Brittany breed, didn't come from some aristocracy um or anything like that. So there's a lot of characteristics that seem you know, see I guess. I guess the best way to explain that is why I have Brittany's is number one. It goes back to my college years of Oberlin. Yeah, and knowing very little about dogs. I found that Brittany's back then, we're very easy to train and very very eager, and they're good house dogs and they're very eager. And if you think back, those was those were the days that the only tool that I had for training a dog was a whistle. There was no such things as shot dollars or horseback chasing him, etcetera. So basically had to train a dog on whistle. So when I first started, that's what we we hunted with, and we we did keep our dogs fairly tight. But as as I learned on and on and my my Brittany's got more confidence and I started breeding dogs to run bigger. Therefore I had more confidence in them and they responded very well. Another thing, when I first started, I took my Brittany's and bred them to be primarily white. M No, and I like the orange and white better than the liber and white, even though that's not a little prejudice, probably towards orange and white, but a lot of orange and white. Brittany's were mostly orange. But I the reason I developed Brittany's and I selected them because of the amount of white is you could see them. And now that's not a factor anymore because now we have all these electronic stuff to um. Yeah, I'm not like I said. I have I used beepers, I don't use. I do not use the shot color. I don't. I um, I have shot the dog once we're chasing the deer or something like that, but I don't believe in that, and I don't have to. I trained all of my bird dogs with a paper and he told me over a hundred dogs that you've personally trained in your life owned personally a hundreds. I think sixty four there. I'm sure I've also let me add something to the last twenty years. I've also had some pointers, and the reason I have pointers is very is actually kind of I like pointers, um And I've had some setters, and I've had some German short hairs, just a few just to try them out. But I still like by pointers and Britties. The reason I have pointers is when I really got well known after writing about bird dogs, and and I would talk to me in my writing for magazines. So if I talked about how big my Brittanys was would run and I had a lot of these guys with their English pointers would be reading the magazine and kind of having a good time laughing, saying, this guy doesn't know what big big is. So they would call me and talk to me about big running dogs. So and over the years, to make a short story, over the years, I had quite a few guys would that come out with they just they just had they couldn't stand it. They had to show me that they had big running dogs, and I didn't. Well, it's so happened. When I got out here, they found out my dogs rant as big as theirs, and then they become very interested in the Brittany's, and so it just so happened. I had, in fact, that there's at least five or six guys that had really good pointers that say, Ben, I'm gonna give you a pointer just to show you. I'd say, fine, out take. So basically I used to I used to get a lot of pointers and there were no even even some of now my pointer, man have some of my Brittany You've never been I mean, I've never been around in Brittany that I didn't enjoy like I've never been around, never hunted. I founded over some Brittany's and other dogs. I've never been around that breed and not like gain some energy from from hunting with them and being around them like they're they're just gregarious. Yeah. I people call me about dogs and I don't you know, Cetter guys, And I call them Cetter guys, Center guys, Center guys that the the guys that only think there's only one bird dog in the world. Okay, okay, And and we have lots of laughs about what I talked to guys I've had. I've had four wonderful Setters and I actually I trained them and basically gave I think they gave him away most of them. And I've had some now quote French Brittany's me that fire Lane was during They're all Brittany's that I've had four or five French Britteys there. We got to cover that you had a little spat with the American Kennel Club way back in their day. Yeah, And so basically, anyway, I my advice to guys first starting bird hunting and know nothing about dogs. I think I think Brittany's and probably French Brittany's too, would add that I think Brittany's probably one of the easier dogs to train for the average guy. In fact, the only the only thing you really gotta do to Brittany's training to come, you know. And in fact it was interesting, I only um my uh my book bird Dog. Uh. In fact that it is called my publisher and that's you. They don't hand me left that that that sold. That book sold very quickly. When I my publisher asked me, this is quite a few years ago. He asked me being he said, why don't you why don't you write a training book on dogs? I'm training dogs, I said, you know, really, I said, tom um, I said, I load him up and take them out. And I said, you know, if I wrote a book about training bird dogs, they'd have to be a lot of fluff in that, he said, because I really don't know what to say. Anyway, I got into writing it, and and then and and the and I call it the instinctive training method, and basically is just get out and do the dog just and the most important thing is teach the dog to come. Yeah, and and and nowadays heavy electronics and so forth. It is a lot easier. But do you have you know, we hundred and sixties some dogs that you've bread and spent a lot of time hunting over and around over the years. You taught you told me about mcgilla Cutty, which is a dog that you have some stories with us. We know about Winston, You've you've written about, You've written about a good bit. Are is one of those dogs like a one that you always kind of think back on or just kind of take people through the relationship because you're I mean, you committed so much time. Well, I had the two females. I had my two first females I brought west was Gina and Lola. And I didn't get bridgeted, but Gina Lola bridgeted and I called Gina and Lola. One was an orange and white was delivering white. I got him from Mike Kennels and from Oberlin Kennel's two very good females. And when I moved to west Uh, I wanted to get a mail for to start raising dogs, so I called Wader And when I after three years, I got a dog I named Mike because when I was a kid, I had the dog so being an artist also, so I like the name Mike alone michel Angelo, so which is I called the short for Mike? Okay, So anyway, I had I named Mike Kennel's Williams Pride Way, Him's William's Pride Williams Pride Kennels. And Mike was my first male And so I found out from a guy in Texas by the name of Jim Lebrick. Um I got his name from Telmar Smith, but that's he's pretty well known at the borrow War. And he advised me to get a dog from Jim Lebrick. And over the years, I think I got nine or ten dogs from Jim. But I wanted to I wanted to take the bloodline I had and Illinois and and he was a he was a field trial judge and he ran Brittany's off a horseback. So I wanted to develop big arranging dogs. So I got the female side from him, and I took my mail side, and that was my studying my bloodlines. So basically that's how I started working to get bigg and running dogs. And uh, I'll just tell you another little story, which was night. So the reason I called him, you asked me The reason I called him mcgilla cutty and changed his name is that I had a I had a friend over and Bozeman. This was in the sixties, that some guy had this big Brittany and he let the dog out in the morning and Bosen was a small town back and then about sized Livingston and the dog would go out and run the city and getting streets fights. He was a big dog getting the fights, and he about every other day he'd be in the dog pound and the guy that owned him his bill. The dog got more than his rent, so he decided to get rid of it. Okay, that's like like having a dogs, like having a kids. He gave it to the vet and he's I'm not paying the bill so that they're gonna put the dog down. So the vet knew I had Brittany and he called me. He said, Ben, he said, I had this big raw bone. There's big Brittany And he said, would you like to have him? And I said, and he told me the story. He said, he's a piece a street fighter and he's he's I don't know if he can hunt or not. He's the guy claimed he took him peasant hunting. He's he's not trained. So I said, I said, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll take him for a month and and I see if he works out. So when Mike got here, his name was Mike. Two Mikes. I can't okay, you can't have two Mikes. So my friend Charlie Waterman, he used to hunt with me. He was he an outdoor writer. Charlie Waterman came over to see my new Mike and and he looked at Michelangelo Mike Michelangelo, and he said, you know, Ben, he's always kind of looked like a mcgilla cutty to me. I said, well, let's call him the Guller cutter. And he looked at Mike. He said, look at that big guy. He said, let's just call him Iron Mike. So that's how they got their name. And he was, these are some of the first ironed Mike Iron Mike. Uh we he had a very bad first week with me. Okay, because I sat down Iron Mike, I said, being a school teacher, I said, I guess whose boss ironed Mike. Okay, you look it at him, Okay, but believe it or not, I never bred him. He had never had it hands before and he ran big and when he pointed you you could sit down and have lunch and he would move. So I ran him in big wheat fields and he he had take like a half mile long. So you see Mike going down. He goes right down the middle of the wheat field all the way down and iron Mike. If he locked up, you got him. He takes you go down one week field and you go down the other week field. Just covered country. Unbelievable. Describe like when you say, you know, when you're looking at a dog that's on it like a perfect point, what's that look like? Like? What's that dog? What's this posture? Like? Explain the perfect point to people? Well, the eye de Brittany's I the idea of posture in America? The I guess the idea is that is that you want to high tail, strung out straight and so forth. I um, I've never been a big, big fan of having classic dogs point and so forth. In fact, I think it's kind of crazy because the English, basically all of their bloodlines, all their dogs have low tails. They have a low tail for a reason. They don't want the dog the bird to see the tail. But being in America, I think we got to cut a show off a little bit. More so if we have a Tennessee to like our dogs and this beautiful stance and so forth, and and so I've never been I've never been keen on the ideal posture for a dog. You just one one that holds on point and knows when the as long as you're holding on point or we're walking and moving. The most important thing I don't watch the dogs posture. I watch the dog's eyes. That those eyes tell me what's going on. In fact, I even wrote about I had a dog, Clyde. Clyde was a piece of work. Okay. In fact, when he pointed, he looked like he's waiting for a bus. Okay, he was kind of you know, but he was good. It was good. And he said, what do you played? You said, hey, Ben over here, got him. He's gonna like this look around. Okay, But you said, like all these dogs have different personalities. You spend so much time. I mean, you spend time around him. From when they're puppies. You are basically selecting them for for service into this life. They energetically go forward. And the important thing about bird dogs, I think is is it's you know, I coach basketball like coach football a little bit. You gotta you know, you want to win, but you also got to have fun. And I don't go out there and yell at my dogs and jump up and down and get mad or grab him and make them do this. That's not my agenda. My agenda is we're gonna have a good time. And if they foul up or something, you know, if they break a point or something, I don't I don't jump at him and yell at him and grab him and make him point again and scream and hollow at him. And uh, you know they I've seen guys blow their whistled and jumping the air and point like this. I mean, that's crazy, you know they I kind of think about it my kids in basketball. There's five kids on the court, and I'm on the I'm on the in the bench. You know, they gotta do it the same thing with four bird dogs down. They gotta do it guiding them. They got to do it. In terms of the relationships, like I said, you're selecting, you know, basically selecting these animals, and they're with you so long and then at some point they're gone and there's a new puppy to train, Like, describe that kind of that relationship where you've been through a hundred and sixty four dogs, some like they die and then you get a new puppy and you kind of cycle through um different animals. Describe, you know, whether it's a one particular dog or just the feeling of kind of that process of watching them, uh come to hea ca and then die. I guess what you'd I guess I put it this way. Is that the reason I've had a lot of dogs because I like to see a the young dogs develop into mature dogs. And there are people say that an older dog will teach a young dog how to hunt. That's not true. The only thing an older dog will do to a young dog is give him some encouragement to run out. But they gotta they gotta learn to hunt there. I mean, every dog is a little different, just like every basketball player I had. Some of them just have that instinct to know when to move and when to go in for that shot. A dog the same way. Basically, I have dogs no no, exactly to cover the hut and not to cover the hut. And I why some people's dogs and they're out there hunting and they they shouldn't be hunting there at all. They should be hunting where the birds are. That's a smart dog. Dogs. You know, there's different levels of smartness and the dog. Some dogs you can just see no exactly how to hunt um. And I've had some of my pointers. I've had dogs that just basically get out of the truck and just like an arrow, just go out exactly. And another thing is once you hunt a dog and the same places over and over again throughout the year, you'll be amazed that those dogs know what those cubbies where I do. I remember I was struck with you're hunting with Morgan Mason's dog and another colleguards, Joe Ferrnado. We were hunting up for blue grouse and just hunting over those dogs. Their office dogs. They come around the mediator office. They're hanging out, see them every day, wonderful. We love them and they're they're part of our family. And then to watch it's kind of like having somebody around every day and then watching them go to work, you know, hanging out with Michael Jordan all day and then watching them shoot hoops. It's like just watching them. They're young dogs. But they're learning. We shot a couple of grouse over them to watch them do their things. Is there some magic to it? Man? Like just that relationship? I think basically, I guess, I don't know. I guess I think there's probably we're actually more lousy hunters in there are lousy dogs. Okay, that's a T shirt. That's an upland T shirt about You're right about that? Is there? Like? I mean, the the important thing about you know, the important thing about running dogs and so forth, just you really want them to have fun. Also, Yeah, I mean that's important. I mean, and that's I contribute a lot of my knowledge who're working with dogs also with coaching already do It's it's almost kind of the same thing as you just you can you can only do so much with a with a basketball player, but he's got to do the rest, and you've got to give him. You got to give him some room to the develop. And so that's one reason why I don't I mean, some of my dogs mature a little bit. Uh, they take a little longer mature. I have found. I found my English pointers basically don't really start the mature really get into big started. Good bird dogs he had about three years. And Brittany's a lot of time. A good Brittany will start this first year they there and they uh, Brittany is at the longevity. The nice thing about Brittany's most of them lived longer than most most winning dogs. They'll live about fourteen fifteen years, no hunt their fourteen. Um, what's the longest you had a dog stay with you hunting? How many years? Years? Fifteen? I got an old dog out there right now that that Yeah, I had one that was, um, well, mcgilla Cutty lived to fourteen. Yeah, we had to close up mcgilla cutty stories that he lived a fourteen and he was he was he finally come blind, but he would walk when he was. I'd take him out hunting and he'd he could see him follow his nose even noough he couldn't see very well, but he still would go out with me. Like the rest of us, we still want to go until we just can't go anymore. What when when a dog like mcgilla Cutty finally you know, you finally put him down and you finally lose him. I mean, you have a lot of rich memories with that dog. What's that? What's that, like, what was it like to watch him, you know, go down? Putting a dog down him is a very sad affair with me. I mean it's it's uh, I I don't handle that very well. I take him to the vet and we put him down, but it's it's not a uh and I best thing I try to do is go back and think about all the good times we had with him and so forth. And I got a female right now that she's Mary. Mary. That's just an absolute phenomenal dogging not much longer. No, she's she can't anymore. Her legs are bad, she can't walk. A tough part of That's the toughest part of having all these dogs is that. And they don't live very long, you know, the fifteen years not very long. Um As a good example, I lost last year. I lost four in my best four in one year, three pointers and Mary Mary did and the pointers died one I had cancer, one died of of crush the wheat dress and his lungs, and the other one uh, I don't really don't know why I died. But they were only I think they were twelve and thirteen. Just so happened to three of them that four dogs, and I basically am down on for really really outstanding dogs not and I only have probably three, um, and they don't compare. I got another young little pointed that's going to be good. But none of none of these dogs compare with mcgilla cutty or with uh Winston has has how you see those deaths changed over the years? I mean, you've watched all these dogs come and go. Now you're seven. Have your view of those deaths changed or is it still as hard as it ever was each time? I don't quite understand the question. How do you know when you're I'm sure when you're a younger hunter, say when your first you know when mcgilla cutty's around, When when you're first getting these dogs and you're you're starting to you're learning with them, and now you've been doing it for six decades. And has anything changed with you when you lose a dog or when you develop that relationship or do you are you still? I don't think so. I don't. It's not any easier. Yeah, um no, No, they're just they're just a part of my life, you know. Um. Another thing we we haven't you haven't maybe mentioned, is that um, since huns come from England originally, or if they're from Hungary and Saskatchewan, or they step country of Europe, and I become very interested in huns. So in a return, I become very interested in hunt dogs. Basically Brittany's from France and in pointers. And so there's basically one thing that was missing, and that is Brettish guns, which I've had a lot. You can't have this conversation without talking about that. You can't have this conversation to talk about those. You can see, Yeah, let's see, I see what you know. So of of the shotguns that that you've used over the years, what's the crown jewel, what's the like the shotgun that you have put the most rounds through? And what's the what's the shotgun you've pointed at the most huns? What what gun killed the most huns? Oh, that's that's an easy question. That's a very easy question. In nine six three, when I worked for Dan Bailey's fly shop Necember, I bought a Belgium Browning that he Belgium Brownie back then in the Belgium Brownie. Before that, I had a Model thirty seven Ethaca and I had a UH five with a pickle on the end. That was a compensator. You remember the polly jokes, Okay, dad? Growing up, I think everybody that had a shotgun headed in take a shotgun set him. I loved the ethics. But anyway, when I got this, I got a twenty gauge Belgium Brownie. Um. I'm not going to tell you how many Hans I shot with that gun because they probably put me in jail. Okay, Um, I shot that gun for sixty almost thirty five years. Wow, I live. I practically shout it out. I just and uh. And that one of the reasons I can, I can honestly say, is that that story. I had to remember, the A five, the Browning, the automatic. When I was in my college days, peasant and I bought one of those. I think I scraped up and up. No one that that it costs me seventy and that was and I took it to When I moved from Illinois, I went to Washington. Taught for a couple of years, and how did huns, but mostly hunted chuckers and quail. And I had my so I was invited. I was not invited out to a farm in northern Washington up behind a place called Old Mac and I was going with a guy hunting deer in front of my one of my teaching friends, and I was going to hunt birds and he's on deer and so forth. In fact, that's where I saw my first age girls. So anyway, I was very excited about. So we stayed overnight at the farmhouse and talked to the rancher and he said, I told him I would like to have some quail, not quail. Oh, I got all kinds of quail. So he said, if you go down this road here and take a left and the right, and he said, there's a big bunch of choke chairs and he said just drive up there and you'll see a bunch of quail and they're always in there. So he was. I drove up there and drove by the big choke tray patch and about five quail got up and flushed. Okay, I had my two dogs with my two brandies. They flushed and lit on the hillside all sage brush. I'm not exaggerating, but I think every stage busch had a quail in it. Okay, So, being excited, I go over there with my A five take one box. I tied a whole box of shells. Shells went over there dogs be wonderful points. Um. I missed shots in a row, never cuts, never cut a feather. Drove back and I driving back home, I said, I think I need another gun. Okay, this thing is too heavy. I need something fast, Okay. So in the meantime I had I got ahold of. I had a little fever that I would use that, which is a lovely little got little twenty gates with fever. I should have brought that gun, but I I thought the other one's gonna work. So when I finally started hunting huns here, the first thing I did was what they did up. I wanted to get up Belgium, Brownie. It was light, twenty games was fast? Are you a twenty gage guy all the way gage? Or or is it unsophisticated to shoot it twelfth gage? I probably I've had more gauges in any care. That's I've had about eight gauges. Now I'm into shooting English guns with two inch shells. I used nothing but two inch shells shot Now of those seven has sevens. Um, So what do you got out there? You gotta let a bunch of side by sides a bunch of European side by. I got four Churchills, and I got a and I have a I Mortimer, a little twenty inch guns. It's it's a twelve gage of ways five pounds one ounce. It's pretty fast. And I have a twenty gauge Churchill sixty engage Churchill, and I like twenty barrels. But I've had five or six Spanish guns, which are beautiful. Area is garbi a y a. I've had several Purties. I've had three Purties, a better boss. I had a Henry Atkins. Uh. You know, I'm kind of into church Chills, but English gun. I have an excuse why I have all these guns, and I and I good investments. Ben, That's what I tell my wife. Yeah that I have the same excuse, which is uh yeah, which which is probably not true, but well let's not let that out of the bag. But anyway, another reason I I actually bought purchased so many different guns and they're good prices and by them is because I like to write about him and the only reason the only way you can write about a gun is to have the gun. That's a better excuse. Okay, wait, wait, just repeat that for the audience. That is something to remember. The only way you can write about a gun is to have one. So later on I'll show you those when those leagues before we leave, I want to I want to give my hands on those. I can't let you go. I can't let this interview go by without talking to you about writing. Like your philosophy is on writing? How you craft a story? Do you have any like the rules that you live by for writing when you sit down to write something? Because I'm a writer, a lot of people that listen to this are writers. You know you have any advice for everybody about about the craft of writing? That's um. I was a photographer long long before I was a writer. And some of my friends like that point out journal Steve Smith and several guys Petrie, Tom mcgwain and a lot of those guys have been you how to write this stuff down? And um, being being in the field basically of engineering in my background as you know, being in biology, in and architecture and shop, and I can writing is something I'm more mechanical basically, And um, I think of my college classes, I skipped most of them more English, okay, but so my writing came very hard to me when I started. But I finally started. I really, I really got into it, I say I and I can honestly say I've worked extremely hard at writing. I Uh, it's not an easy thing to do. Um, I'm very slow at it. I think I'm you know, after now thirty five years of writing him certainly a lot, a lot better and in more creative. But I find it to be an excruciating process. It's painful to write. Everything I write is painful. I agree, I agree, But you know, UM I have I haven't. I haven't written anything in the last couple of weeks, and which is what's kind of about. Um. The one thing I do have is good discipline. I think you gotta have good to be a writer. UM, So I do I have a I use you right in the afternoon or I write from about like maybe one o'clock, uh, and tell four o'clock or so, and what if I'm really champed for time about write in the morning sometime. But there are times when I was writing a book, I'd write for six seven hours. Um. I rewrite a lot. I think I think all writers do that. You write it and then hate it, and then write it. That's part of the excruciating nature of the whole the fair, and it's exercise. And I should also read. I read all kinds of books. I don't watch television. I read. You can see my library. I just um, I read. Um, I'm gonna come over here and ask you to borrow books and shotguns. Okay, So I think I think writing is hard. And then like I said, I um, but I like it. I uh, and I do. I like to write. Um, I'll probably continue writing for quite some time. And when I first started running, i'd I'd write mostly hook and bullet stuff, you know, and that and in most stories. But it so happened in Cubby Rise when they when they approached me, I my first couple of stories. I write kind of hook and bullets stores. And finally, John the the publish owner and publisher of Cubby Rights, he said, Benny said, you've been doing this so long. He said, we want to hear you about stories. And I said, I have stories, I mean, and I can read about stories. I mean, I read about Clyde, you know, as a good example, going to Mongolia. I took Clyde to Monengolia twice, you know. And he was a little prejudice. He didn't like the Mongolians. He wouldn't look at him. I had a little talk with get it together. Yeah, um, Clyde was a piece of work. He was one of my hunting dogs. His idea of hunting was, uh, to go out hunting. Looked like, he's real good And the first time he smelled a bunny, he would never chase the bunny because he wasn't allowed to, so we didn't. Then we'd walk baby, oh maybe a hundred yards or so, and all of a sudden Clyde would be lost, to be gone. And Clyde always managed a double back okay, and I got it one time up in a high look at he doubled back. And when when bunny hunting, so bird dog a d D so. Clyde and I had a few conversations about that. He didn't care. You said, oh, well, what the heck? He had a good attitude. Let me ask you about I think it would be a nice way to close our chat here to ask you about the upland hunting culture kind of what what it is, because you've seen especially in this valley. But I think you being in the industry and having written so much and being connected to Covey Rise, which is a more modern Huntsman, which are more modern publications, and some of the other publications you mentioned have been around for decades. I would love to just hear your thoughts on how Upland culture has changed and grown over those fifty years sixty years. I certainly think that I attributed a lot to hunting Western game birds. There's no doubt about it. I mean when I first started, honey was unheard of. Uh. I think I think Charlie Waterman was probably the first one. When he came out here. I knew him quite well and I admired the man very much so UM and he was a very good, very good bird hunter. He was a big game hunter first, but yeah, when he met me, he got very interested in bird hunting. My kind of was a guy that that really gott him started. Uh. Even though he went on and I think he his writing, I think had a lot to to develop UH in in bird hunting. And I think after I think after the Second World War, I think there's a lot of people started, especially quail hunters in the South took up that pheasant hunters in the Midwest, and it become fairly popular. Um. And then I would say for hunting in the West, I probably put bird hunting on the map. And I'm not trying to take credit for you, but I'm saying that no need because you know, I was a fact, Charlie was. I was wondering instrumental, and Charlie did it first with his dog, was very instrumental when taking a lot of my bird dogs and hunting every bird in North America when and I think that it's guys do it all the time, and especially in the West too. And I think when I moved here, I was telling you before we hit record that I've been here for ten months or some number. And when you move here, you're fantalized, like fantasizing about elk and mule deer and all these things that are like unique to the West. But when I got here, I started seeing rough grouse, blue grouse, sage grouse, pheasants, like huns, all the birds. And I'm thinking it's kind of not fair because the West has this treasure sure of a big game species, but also this like you can be in the most We're hunting the other day, Morgan, Joe and I and this is look beautiful cannon. You can imagine to which I could see my house and we're we're able to flush and shoot the beautiful blue grouse. It's just like it's it's almost unfair. Um. I mean there's a well, my book Western Wings, or my revised book of Western Wings, as I added more birds that you know, blue growls are a fun bird to hunt, and people don't realize that they if you, if you read my book and study their habits, they're the only game bird that nest slow and move up. All the other was moved down. So basically September one, you can hunt them in the sage brush. Uh if if you know where they are. I mean, like you say, there are places that I go and then the males will go high. But then by what's what's around the fifteen sixt right now? So those young broods right now, usually the females go, the males are up there. The females go first single and then the broods go up. So where you hunted them, if you hunted real low last week or when you were hunting them, the chances are you might not find them there. They're going to be moving up there. We were up pretty high and they were up there. I was elk hunting a couple of days ago and they're just walking on the road. There was five blue grouses walking on the road. I think, pretty pretty high. There are a lot of times that I hunt there's two, there's three, or fair place Sas to hunting here I would hunt. I would shoot as many rough grouse as I would blue grouse, all the same thing spot. I think, Um, we've been going for a while here, now, is there a way, um, before we go, you can explain to people how all of this upland hunting, shotguns, dogs, breeding, all the things we've talked about has enriched your life and kind of made it better. Like, is there a way to articulate that to somebody that's maybe never done it before, since you've been doing it for longer than just about anyone. Um, well, I think right off, I can. I think it the nice thing about running dogs and hunting hard in huns and hunting in general. I don't big game hunt. I used to do it a little bit, but I don't care. But I think bird hunting is very physical if you do it, especially huns and western game birds very physical, and I think it's a it's a very good way to keep physically fit. Um, and I think my longetivity has something to do with my bird hunting and seven now and you're still how many days a year you think you hunt? Now? Oh, all depends on the weather right now. But I I hope to get out at least forty years, thirty forty maybe more. I don't anybody listening to this, let's say they don't have energy or time to go and do the thing they love, you're still still doing. I hadded I had one year, a couple of years I huded in fish two d and fifty days and I did that probably off not for almost ten years. And that year I retire from teaching. I had a hundred hundred days here and then I'd go hunt Kansas, Oklahoma in Texas and Oklahoma in New Mexico. And then I was so I'd start hunting September one and that wind up February. So September, October, November, December, January, February. Well, I'm a young man, but I've already got retirement plans. And they look a lot like that. Pick a pick an animal. I see, what's how old are you? Did now? Thirty three. I would have. Yeah, I used when I was thirty two. I could. I could take off on a Saturday and haunt Hans, and I could go about twenty five miles. There's a lot of el Connors that don't go twenty five many, many, many many don't. That's how I learned to haunt Hans. I mean just I could'ntry sixty five seven. I could slow down. I want to go about twelve maybe fourteen, but no, I well, let's we'll end it. But I want to I'm looking at your bookcase here, and I'll tell you that my favorite book, and I see you have one up there, is Tom Kelly's Tenth Legion. It's my one of my favorites. I just podcast with Tom a couple of months ago. Oh yeah, yeah, I love his book. He's in Bethezta. He's you know, he's getting up there in age himself, but he's still as sharp as attack man. He's he's it's it's my favorite book. It's well, there's a couple other different ones. Favorite is the sand Connie Almanacers my favorite. Tom Kelly's book probably really inspired me to hunt. I hunted turkeys. Uh, the good The nice thing about turkey hunting in the spring is you couldn't hunt any other game book. And I used to kind of dogs. Yeah, and so I just it. I hope Tom could hear this, because every year before I went turkey hunting, I had to read his me too. It was I mean, it was more important than even taking my shotguns to read his book. I can't tell you how much I agree with that. I he when I met with him in June. He's still similar, wants to go turkey out in every year. He's not not in the best of shape for for walking around, but he still has it. And he and uh the reason and I used to have. I used to be a turkey honey nut. And I haven't done. I mean, I there was times that I I think the best day I had an Eastern Monty called eight Gobblers in it one day and show him away. He just called him and they have fun. And I built my own turkey calls. Oh really? Oh yeah, And I've had all kinds of I built a lot of wooden turkey calls, but scratch calls. Is there another book? You know? Uh? San County Almanacs one. We have a shirt for this podcast that just says an illustration of Aldo little pulled on it, Um Leopold on it. With that says Aldo freaking Leopold on it. Because I think that book shaped the way I think about the outside world, like it just did. And then one of my favorites, and then that legion just not only Turkey on it, but just hunters how we are are are kind of weird idiots, the weird things that we do. Is there a book up there that you other than those two that you really think of has kind of changed your way of being outside because you gotta like all of I mean, well, um, there's there's a couple of them. Um, I can't think of the name. Okay, there's a there's a book that has nothing to do with hunting that I like, but I think a hunter would like it. Um it's it's by Gavin He was a poet. He's a poet and he has a good and it's called The Metal. Have you ever read The Metal? I have not. I have not. It's about three and sixty acres in a life, living in Wyoming, Colorado border. It's a wonderful book. Um, it's nothing to do with hunting, but it's a lot very close to my philosophy of living in the west. Ah. Um, other hunting books. Um, there's so many that period you've got, Like, I don't even see that books sheelf over there? Oh god, um, oh gosh. Like I said, I'm wanna come over here and maybe I could check them out like the library. Oh yeah, I got I got those books, can't. I like his books? Grabbed that? Um see that red one on the right, the slide go go to the left a little bit further right there. Grab that. That's yeah, I got the I love those books. Like I said, when I when I think of these writers like yourself that kind of like typify or just embody like a microculture within Honting. You've got Nash Buckingham, ru Ark, yourself, you have time I liked writing. I think so many good ones. And that's that's and I'm missing some right now. I just can't think about what I Well, we'll call. We'll ask you to write an article for the Mediator dot com on your favorite books. About that. Now we can point everybody that threat there's some I liked. Oh, there's all kinds of books. I really Yeah, the Man and the Wonderful everybody should read that. I wrote as a good example, my dog Winston as I wrote that. I wrote that book also for kids. I have my daughter teaches fifth grade and she has her kids read that book. That's a great it's a great piece, and it's a it's a it's a nice, simple little it's it's nice story about a dog hunting all the birds and how he lived a short life. And it was the celebration that wasn't you know. It wasn't a memorial book or anything. It was just a celebration of life. And it seems like, you know that, being as hard as it is, that's the only way to approach it. Um, well, listen, we'll come back, come back some time and do a book. I like that. I like Tom mcgwayne's stuff. Yeah, fishing. Tom's a good friend of mine. I gave order the podcast with Tom recently. I have a Meti podect good story about loaning him a a bird dog, Abbey. I wrote about it. He wrote about it, and I never got it back. Oh I loaned him and I guess funny said Tom, it is your dog. He wrote the story about Abby. Yeah. In fact, I wrote a he called I wrote a part of the story, but I couldn't have kept getting to a better person than Tom Montana seems to be a good fuel for writers mcguaine, yourself and others you know, come here and there's something about it that feels a good writing well. I think I like Jim Harrison was a good friend of mine. Uh Russell Chatham did a lot of good writing. Um, when you talk about fishing sometime, if you ever want to talk about me fishing and so forth with the idea my some of my best fishing books. I like Haig Brown. Have you read Hey Brown stuff? I'm still head fisherman too. I'd love still head fishing. So yeah, we we have a whole, a whole another podcast with you about your fishing years and trout and limited days and things like that. But but I, like I said, I just don't. I got uh. There's another book that's nothing to do with hunting, Prairie Earth. Have you read that? I have not, But like I said, I'm gonna come here and check them out for it. Leehast Moon, he wrote Blue Highways. I like Prairie Earth is because it's about Kansas and about the country. I like it's not a social bird hunting at all, but it's there. You're the great duck misunderstanding. That's a wonderful I guess I'm just a reader. I did. I just I read all the himling Way stuff. I've read that over and over again. And you have Round River up there by Aldo right there. That's a good one. Yeah, I could read those forever. Um, well it's been it's been an honor to sit here and have a conversation with you. Ben. I appreciate, um you're taking the time number one, but also just number two. Um, you're writing your work. Your passion for gun dogs that extends over twice as long as I've been on the earth. I think is um inspiring to me and hopefully inspiring to everybody listening to this. And so thank you very much for all you've done. And maybe we'll get out and go chase some Hans one of these days. Absolutely. I guess I grew up on in All the Road the medal. I always do what I told until I found out that my brand. That's it. That's all episode eighty in the books, our Upland episode. We won't do any Upland episodes. There's not a whole lot of upland content floating around um in our media to world. So it's nice to talk to ben O Williams. Thank you so much, Ben for having us in your home. Thanks to Morgan Mason, Joe Fernado. Thanks to Mango for just being Mango. Big shouts to Mango, big shouts, sweet dog, Sweet Mango. We'll love you, Mango. Uh, even though I've never met you. I can't wait, Phil, do you ever bring Mango in the office. I my my wife really wants to, wants me to because I tell her about the other office dogs and how generally well behaved they are for how many we have running around a packet dogs? Yeah, and she says, you need you should expose her to more dogs. Yeah, Like, you're right, but that would mean exposing her to more dogs. Um and me, She's just yeah, exactly. You don't know what I'm gonna do. Yeah, you're crazy. I'm out there, man, I'm out there, all right. Well, to Mango, we'll hopefully see in the office real soon. And let me let me just let me just remind everybody before we go, uh not so sharp moments. We already talked about this in the opening the show, but we need you're not so sharp moments. We need you to write in to th HC at the Media dot Com and tell us sometimes you might have fumbled in the field. Uh, it's important. We're going to have lighthearted discussions about these moments. Bring to light failure. People on social media always saying all you see is success. Well not here at THHC. Here's the Hunting Collective, We're all about failure. Some people call it the Failure Podcast. Yeah, I've heard that. We read mean comments, we talk about not so sharp moments. So all those things that's coming real soon. That segments coming to this podcast very soon, so look out for it. Hopefully you can be a part of it by writing into th HC at the Media dot Com. Use your best pros, dust off those writing chops, and tell us a story. Is that good, Phil, Yeah, I'm excited to hear what people have to say. I'm sure there are many many not so sharp moments. I don't ask much of you guys, other than to buy products and spend hours a day, hours a week with me. I don't ask other than that. I asked very little of you. That's true, right, Yeah, but now you give I'm gonna give give so much. I give so much. You never asked. Now you're asking. Now finally, I'm asking you to do something for real. And that's right into T A c as meter dot com. I would like to have hundreds of emails to sift through here, thousands, tens of thousands, very serious about this, and so my plea is over. So we will see you next week. I will also see at t A c at me dot com. Thank you, Jack Daniels, number seven, Tennessee whiskey, got me drinking heaven and just stopped. It looks good to me. They're gonna have to department to the parade, tod Hey, I got something before we do anything else. I got something they need to ask your help with. And that's Public Lands Day. I know it's Public Lands months of September Lotti dop. But there's a day, a specific day, and that day is Saturday Septem that First Light. Our friends over at First Light are trying to ramp up the conservation donation. So if you want to go to w w W what's the w W stand for Worldwide Web? Thanks Phil, thanks for that. Uh, if you want to go to Worldwide Web dot first Light dot com they're gonna tell you how when you get there to help them celebrate National Public Lands Day, and that's by they're gonna match all the contributions made to their conservation partners via the first Light round up program. So now is the time to double your donation to the group's working hard to protect American wildlife and wild places, including t r c P, Teddy Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, back Country Hunters and Anglers, the q d m A, Pheasants Forever, and more. So go to first light dot com check it out. You're gonna get your donation double. They're gonna be putting money into conservation. You're gonna be putting money into conservation and everyone will be happy. Wildlife and wild places will thank you for it. So go and do it if you don't mind.

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