00:00:02 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I've been O'Brien and today I am standing in the middle of an icy lake at Fort Peck in Montana. A good friend Andrew McKeen, who's most recently the editor in chief Outdoor Life, one of the better writers thinkers that I know in our industry, and a good friend of mine. We've traveled the world together and we're here in his hometown of Glasgow to do a little ice fishing. So this whole podcast we were sitting kneeling around an ice hole. In fact, his legs fell asleep during the podcast, kneeling around an ice hole trying to catch a big lake trout. So that was a huge part of it. But the other part we wanted to talk about was recruiting, retention, and reactivation, our three model of getting hunters in our bucket keeping them there. So it was a great conversation, a lot of fun here on the lake. We haven't caught any fish, but I've been happy to just be in this beautiful country and talk about hunting. So the first ever ice fishing podcast with Hunting Collective an unsuccessful one, but fun nonetheless, enjoy it. Oh here we're going. Hey, Andrew McKeene, I've been on bran. What's going? That's good? Oh man, my hands are warmed up. Let me take a quick swig of this old Milwaukee light as we get going here. I don't warm you right up. It's a little bit frozen. You's got a little slush in it, which it's not a big deal at all for me at this point. We are did you know it's a good way to always started these podcasts? What you describe where we are? We are sitting on our knees in a desolate expanse of frozen lake. We very much are joining that. We're we're off a shaft house point on Fort Peck Reservoir. I got a fishing rod here that's about eighteen inches long in five ft of water. Okay, maybe it's only a hundred ft of water, but it might as well be five. Same amount of fish come out of either one. It's a it's a it's amazing country. I here, man, this is the homeland. You live here. I am so excited that you're here. I'm so excited to be here. I am so excited to be here. It like I said, you just moving to Montana and and you know you're always worthy, intrepid outdoor editor who found the found the perfect spot to live. So the rest of us are jealous. Well, now you've been so you haven't been here through all of winter or mosquito season, and there's only about a week and a half in between the two. It's i can be a challenge of place to live. But yeah, So my hometown is Glasgow, mont Hannah. This is Fort Peck Reservoir, which is the largest body of water in the state of Montana. It's uh, you know, what do you say? It has as much shoreline as the state of California. That's right, Uh, and far fewer rockfish and far more ice fish and rednecks. There's we're sitting in the middle of kind of a shanty town of sorts. Not the kind of shanty town that you don't really think of, but this is an ice shanty town. It's not Leech Lake level, but it's pretty cool. Like there's a little community here. Yeah, there's a little community people most most, I believe in my briefing ice fishing experience, it feels as if ice fishing and mostly just standing around drinking. You look at a rod, like nothing's happening over there, and then the guys will be like, no, they're not biting. Were like, well, how much work have you done? And it seems like right now we're just sitting around. There's a bunch of dudes just talking and fishing. Maybe is set and dry. Although you notice, I am I'm continuing to jig. You are jigging as we're talking. You are jigging. And uh, if we catch a fish that might be live, I'll give the live commentary on your on your ability to pull this these giant things, and what what kind of fish are in here? Some people know what we might be pulling in. Well. Fort Peck is known for walleye. It's a pretty good walleye fishery. Maybe the second most famous or known fish is northern pike. There's a good small mouth bass fishery here. But today we are heard in deep water fishing for lake trout. Yeah, they've caught a couple of big old lake trout here. Huh before we got here, as the guys that were already set up a couple of big lakes on the ice. And they're good looking fish deep there. How they eat they well, they're a little bit fishy, a little bit, a little bit oily, but smoke them or yeah, I mean they're good. Put them in the oil, fryme up up, always fram up. The thing I like about this so far is we haven't gone to that the third level of ice fishing, which is you doubt everything your lure, you're constantly changing up. Well, uh, Steven Ronnella has this ice this camera. They dropped down and then you can see the fish we were in. He was describing watching the perch just like swim up to the bay, just gently put their mouth on it and then decided, no, I'm back off. And I feel like that makes you even more paranoid. Let you know that the fish are noncommittal in the way that they are. So if I just just this this different jig, different weren't different weight, different leader, I wouldn't want that much information. The thing of the beauty of ice fishing is you have no idea what's going on out there, so you could just make it up. Oh, I know, you're like, you know what, I think this is where I think we just it's just about persistence at this juncture, which it often is. It's often is, but it's the feeling that you get, you know, when you're sitting out on the ice. We don't have any fancy stuff here, but you're just we're drinking. I'm drinking and you're drinking Old mill walky light. This is the American pinup series. Can you know? Not sponsored? Not sponsored? But if hey listen, Old Milwaukee, if you're listening to this, any of your marketing executives, are you in your agency? People hit us up here the Hunting Collective. We'd love to be sponsored by Old Milwaukee. Like this ship is delicious and I kind of feel like we would bring our own new pin up series to it. Yes, yeah, but up ice Fisherman here suit. This is the other just dudes in fur Well, I mean your hat. So Ben O'Brien today at the gas station in Glasgow, he comes out with this Dakota Dan hats and it's like a it's a rabbit mad rabbit bomber hat. I thought he'd had it like it was a family heirloom, and he wore it like in that kind of subtle way like yeah, my great granddad broke this in. Yeah. No, I didn't announce that I was putting it on or anything. I just slipped it on and during conversation you must have said them, you certainly got fuzzier in the last twenty minutes. Yeah, well, part of it was just your Johnny attitude. Yeah yeah, but my attitude change immediately. You wanted me to look at it and notice it. But I didn't put it together that it was a brand new purchase. It was only shout outs to the Glasgow Jiffy Lub where we were. That was it was a good good purchase. It's it's proven to be um, it's made in China course and it but it's proven to be synthetic for I imagine, but proven to be a good good purchase. The thing I like about the setup and you can kind of hear it maybe in the background the soundtrack to this. Oh yeah, we don't need no stinking ice shanty. We don't need We're out in the elements here. We're literally on our knees. I can't feel my feet of the saddest podcast ever. Our backs are to the wind, which isn't helping. And I'm so distracted by my dog, who is just she's we call her the resident dumbass. She just chased Uh. The loneliest snow goose in America into the only open water on the lake. And she went in. She went in, and that water is cold. We thought we were gonna have to go over there and rescue her. But Nellie be and Nellie she found her way out of there. Man. She she is standing beside us now, probably waiting to crop to us. This wind. You never but yeah, I mean this country, you know, talk a little bit about your home country here, because it is you know, the Missouri Breaks, it is Fort Pack. I mean, there's some pretty popular names. Like I was saying before we're driving over here, I do feel like Fort Pack is something, at least Montane's talking about it. But I mean, I think the Missouri Breaks are something that all hunters understand, you know, as as a destination. I think this is you know, I moved here twenty years ago, worked for fish Wilife from Parks, and I kind of thought this is gonna be kind of a fun little hiatus on the way to somewhere else. And there's a couple of things I know it is. One is you nailed you nailed it. I mean, these sort of legendary locations. The Missouri River Breaks is you know, kind of synonymous with big mule deer and all com big horn sheep, and it's all real. That is in my backyard. The Milk River is just over our shoulder, which was kind of lost a little bit of its luster, but synonymous with big white tails. Oh yeah, pheasant hunting. I mean, if you're if you're a sportsman, this is a pretty nice place. Back in the day when I was coming up, the real Tree monster bucks man Bill Jordan was out there just bringing like Mike, Mike Waddell's coming out here every year and killing bucks. And that's what I knew of it. So when I thought of the river, I thought of this, you know, hollow ground, this destination that that is, you know, a kin to Pike County, Illinois for white It was popularizing that way, and I mean it's still is. So the thing that has kept me here is, yeah, there's to me. It's as I said to have been on the way out here. We really don't have an access problem. There's abundant public land, there's block management everywhere. In some ways, it's going back in time to nineteen fifties America, where if you know somebody is certainly if you live here, you get asked if you want to hunt their place, you don't have to ask the locals. They ask, Um, that's pretty nice. Yeah, it's it's rolling country, it's black hills, it's you know, river bottoms. Is I mean, you know the view out your back porch, I said, made me feel like when Captain Woodrow f Call was in drove all his cattle from He's not a real person, his fictional character, but he drove all those cattle from Texas spontanity. He came up when this region he goes, boys, we're here, this is the place it in your place feels much like that, and uh you know that. No, No, people that listen to this podcast. No, I've wax and waxed about Montana. Well enough book this this area. I mean, it's such a diverse state. This area just feels a lot different then than many that I've spent time. Well, now I gotta bring in the other part of it. There's a reason there aren't very, very very many people here. It's a it's a hard place to live. I mean, you've had a tough, long winter. We have h long, hot summers with the biggest mosquitoes you've ever seen. The Washington Post just did a analysis of every ZIP code in in the country last year looking at infrastructure in the distance between towns and services, and they named Glasgow the loneliest town in America when it comes to accessibility to to public services. So it's the middle of nowhere, and I can really feel like it's sometimes it's it's two eight five miles to the airport, so you know you can do it. You can get to know yourself pretty well and really to the airport. So anytime any listening complains about the airport run minds like five minutes, um more like five miles. But I think it's it's safe to say that this is tough country. Man. It makes for tough people, but hardy in good people too. I find just from my brief time out here. The thing I like about it, and also it greaves me a little bit, is it is like the best in nineteen fifties America, where everybody's watching out for you. It's been a great place to raise kids, but it's also the worst of nineteen fifties America where and people are kind of trapped in time in terms of like there's not a lot of ethnic diversity or culinary diversity and everybody knows your business. Everybody knows your business. I like it, um, but it makes going to the grocery store kind of a long You got to prepare for it because they're gonna make small talk. Yeah, I think I think both. I think I think I yearned for both things, right. I think I yearned for like that small town fiel where you know everybody, but also like so yearned to be connected and be you know, in a place where lots going on. Like I yearned for that bee hive of activity. But I also at the same time, I don't want to you know, pass by a bunch of strangers on the street, go to the grocer shore and not know a soul. So there's there's you know, there's gifts and takes, but you try to find a place where you can get both of those things. I kind of feel like Bozeman though, is we were talking. Yeah, what's like Paris in the twenties. It's like the epicenter right now, a lot of cool stuff. So I think I've actually got that. Yeah, I think it's close, but so nobody else moved there. Full I'm already like that old one say here's this is my favorite. Like, if anybody wants to go and read the reviews of my podcast, there's like, there's someone stars in there's there's a couple of dozen of those in there. And one guy just wrote this is after I had already moved to Montana. Stay in Montana. It's full one star. It's like, yeah, well, sound review of this media product. Well, you know, I don't want to denigrate my hometown too much, but I'll tell you this. So we've lived here, We've lived your nineteen years, we've raised. My daughter was born here, we raised. It will take another eighties seven years before we're like residents generations, at least three or four generations. People always say, oh, aren't were you actually from Yeah, you don't have you don't sound like you're from here. I feel like, oh, yeah, I've got a lot long ways to go. But you know, and in the effort of transition, and speaking of raising kids, your kids are you know, high school age, right, and your two twin sons are ready to go off to college, and and I think all three of your kids are you know, hunters at some level, right. I Mean you don't call them all avid hunters, but they certainly live in in the mecca um to take up out there pursuits you you know, you were for folks that don't know Andrew's background, you know, you were editor in chief and Outdoor Life for how many years prior to seven years? Seven years um? And I have been in the outdoor industry and in wildlife management and such for many years prior to that. And so I mean you've involved yourself in a lot of you know, hunter recruitment and hunter retention types of activities and and written about it for Outdoor Life and been a part of a lot of editorial products that that spoke about it in a broad and microsense. You know, what what do you feel like for your kids their generation? Like, what's the you know, I want to call it their plight, but what's their biggest challenge to you know, maintain what they've got here in Glasgow? That's a good question. I mean one of the I guess motivators for me being involved in you know kind of would say kind of the greater pass it on movement is So my daughter is a freshman in high school in Glasgow, Montana. She's fifteen. She took hunter education when she was eleven year old, Like a lot of Montana kids. It's not these are not big classes. I think she's got fifty kids kids in her grade. There's only two girls who hunt and maybe three or four boys who hunt. This is possibly the hunting out in America. This is what I said. This is the mecca. If anybody thinks of like a place where you have access to a plethora of game, you know, and just a culture that supports it, this is it. Man. So it's I mean, it's not a given that just because you are raised here and maybe your folks have always done this, that you're going to So that was kind of the first thing. It's like, we got to really work on that the funnel, you know, the throat of the funnel, and getting more kids involved it. But then I started looking at my buddies in the generation above me. Hell, there's a couple of out here on the ice. We just saw they don't do it much anymore. They're aging out. And so the big kind of the national perspective is tying those two things together. We're an aging population. All the statistics say at about age sixty six, you just don't do this much anymore, even though you may have the interest and and you know maybe now the financial ability and the time to do it, you just don't have the physical desire to do it. And so the big problem is we're not replacing ourselves as we age out with a new generation coming in issue. Yeah right, it's the you know that that will post World War two boom and hunters and we're in the decline. And I think I think it's this's is no news to anybody. There's been a concern about it for a long time, which is why there have been all the kids programs that state agencies and the NGOs think about the Turkey Federations, Jake's program, like all we gotta work on really making it attractive to kids. The fallacy with that whole thing has been and I've participated in this fallacy myself, is typically you think about kids who go to like a field day for a Turkey Federation, they're the kids of the parents who are already involved in that. Those are the most likely kids to be involved just as a family tradition. And so it's I don't think it's follows that kids just because they're exposed to it are gonna do it. There's just a lot of distractions, A lot of other choices that they have. Yeah, and I think it comes to like there's another part of it. Another part of the dichotomy is very much that uh, and I was this way to some extent. I don't know if your kids will be this way. We'll see. But you know, you your your parents teach you hunting. Your dad is normally the the way that that goes. But you know, somebody in your family or some close friend becomes your mentor teaches you hunting. And then you turn eighteen, you go to high school. Um, you discover the opposite sex, you discover um parties, you discover other things. Sports Milwaukee Light shout out to Old Milwaukee Light hashtag pin up can American series not hashtag not sponsored. The ship is good, um, but I think it it. I dropped off during college a good bit because I had a job, I had an internship. I was taking full of course twelve course or twelve credit three courses, and I dropped off of honey at least as you know, when when I wasn't with my dad. So the danger is that that's what we focus on the youth, right, we gotta get him in, we gotta get him in well we gotta retain them to right, got to keep them in UM. And so I think that's something that is starting to be recognized as well because there's a lot of a lot of drop off. Well you think about kids too, I mean, there may be that avidity, there's not a lot of other things in their lives, but you start to think about what how to build a self perpetuating machine. Kids don't have disposable income, they don't have disposable time, they don't have disposable transportation, so they're totally dependent. And so you're exactly right, what we're what we're looking at. Do you explain let's let's look explain our three and kind of involvement in and give people an idea what's going on. This isn't an isolated, you know, thought that we've got to do something to really perpetuate these traditions, and we kind of talk about what's dependent on that perpetuation ship. It's shoot, it's the entire funding structure for wildlife management in America is participants fund wildlife management, game wardens, the whole system. And so once we start to see big drop off, there's meaningful impacts in terms of there's not enough funding to get this stuff. They'll say most I think the average is and this changes. So this is not a direct uh stat that I'm quoting, but it's it's around six of most state agencies funding comes from tags and Pittman robbers and type funds, you know, excise tax type revenues. And so that's a huge number. Um. And that's, like I said, that's all dependent on these user groups going on and buying licenses and spending the money and doing the things that's required to go hunting. So we we've created this in this system that's beautiful and is beautifully intertwined, but it also hinges on participation. So the there there have been a lot of demographic studies and just looking at kind of cultural changes over time that have have taken the national look at this and said, okay, so there's the throw to the funnel we talked about. That's the recruitment side. There's the um retention side, which is, if you've started hunting like you in college, like an awful lot of people, how do we bring these people back and kind of keep them in the fold? Yeah, I mean, and in the term you know where did the term like our three is the term that we that it was coined. Um, you know something I think people need to know, and it's it's more of an industry term. But take people through where where that first started and kind where you first heard it, and what you think of that model or at least that articulation of the needs for that funnel. So the just to be um clear, are three is So it's recruiting, retention, and then reactivation. And that's that idea that you may have had some exposure to this at some point in your life, you fell out of it. How do you we bring those people back in? So we're not starting from scratch with a whole bunch of new people who have to understand, you know, the value of wildlife and the tradition of in America. So those are the three rs. I actually I didn't really hear about it in terms of like almost kind of branding campaign and so just a couple of years ago. Yeah, it's very recent. Um. And like a lot of these things, I'm I'm an agency alum and veteran, but agencies drive me crazy for a couple of reasons. One, they coined things like this are three movement. Well, it's not a movement. Until people make a difference with that. You can't just say it's going to happen and then it's just words, just a bunch of words. It didn't make like a nice logo. I believe it's just words. But I guess the words that like a concept that we can agree with. But it's the concept in action, right you say? And honestly, reactivation is kind of clunky. So if I had to say, maybe it's two hours and then maybe we find another work for you or something, why or why? Um? The other thing that drives it crazy about state agencies is they want to just study everything to death and then prove the concept, which is the scientific method. I get it is how we manage lots of our wild life, but the human dimension of what we do kind of resist that sometimes. And so one of my um foundational principles about this is our ability to recruit, retain and reactive people. May not work the same in Illinois or New York or Montana. It's going to be a little bit different. But we can sit here as people who care about it and study it for fifteen or twenty years. In that time, the world isn't standing still waiting for our conclusions. Let's just do some stuff. Let's just kind of do it. But state agencies are kind of resistant to that idea. Yeah, that they have to stay have to act on. I mean this it's governmental action campige book. Let's just see this works. We have to have a study in a basis on which to act. One of the reasons I think we need to act is because, um, you know, demographics. Wait for no man, our baby boomers are leaving the fold. We're not replacing ourselves very well. But here's the interesting, I think exciting thing is think about that continuum of kids who didn't have the disposal time income. People who do, I think are the most energetic and and source of greatest potential. And that's the you know, the twenty five year old college graduates who's really looking for something in their life to give a meaning and something to do, something to join, um, like the local food movement has probably been the best thing that's happened to this. And really the whole idea of the outdoors is being an authentic experience. Nobody is gonna sugarcoat it for you. If you can have a mentor somebody to guide you, but ultimately you're kind of on your own. You're gonna find out a lot about yourself out in the elements. I think that's actually the most exciting thing. I look at it almost like a new homestead movement. Yeah, that's that's a great way to put it too, because you know, it's it's cultivating this willingness to you know, charge ahead and fail and start again. And it's not you know, I think some of the fallacies in our current media space is that there's there's this like focus on the success, right. You gotta like, you can't have a TV show without a dead animal. You can't have um. The more the more dead creators you get on your your social media, the more likes you're gonna get just by nature of the way that it orders. But and that those things are all great, and that's that's a depiction of what we do. You're not gonna erace you know, those things. But at some level of Nelly back old Nelly the dumbass, she's kind of a coyote. She's a forager. She's a forager. She's looking for the ice hole to ice hall, looking for Bayer, yeah, looking for bay, looking for the occasional fish tail. Our neighbors are backing up getting out of town. Why do I suddenly feel so alone here? But like everybody left us. It was a great podcast. Way to walk home? Now? I no, no, well now go here? Now there you go? Kind of she's she's skulking. Yeah, whatever, I'll come back. Um. Yeah, I like these these ice fishing interludes. Hopefully we get an interlude where there's a fish on looking over back at my hole. My hole looks like it's it's doing good. Um. But yeah, I mean, I think we talked. We like, we talked about this, and I've talked about this a lot. But it's important to note that we talked about this. We you know, we we would be proactive on it even if we weren't in the situation we're in. Um no, now at least get back now, kid, go over here, there you go. Um, we would be talking about it even if we were in a healthy situation, I think, but we wouldn't be. I don't think we would be as active in this. You know, we should be desperate in a lot, in a lot of ways to to stem the tides. It's interesting though, you kind of hit on this. I think we all who are define real lives about what we do, understand it through and through we don't. There's no shortcuts. You earn what you put into it. It's kind of a feedback loop that way. I think there's been a tendency we've talked about kind of giving kids all these opportunities. You see it in youth seasons all these other things too. There's a real tendency to say, Okay, we want to open the gate for a bunch of new participants, we have to make it as easy and as accessible as possible. I actually think that's the wrong approach because I think the value of this is it is hard. It can't be so hard it's intimidating. There has there has to be success, but there also has to be a little bit of the challenge that boost the reward as the outcome when it finally happens. That's why I think introducing things like small games the equation right. If you're there's you know a lot of folks that listen to this that are new hunters and have written in or chatting with me about the challenges of being a new hunter, and um, there aren't many challenges, but there also are many doors that are hanging wide open for you to walk through. You just have to You just have to do it, and you don't don't, you know, don't get caught up in the dogs of hunting that you gotta go out killing the gold elk or to um. So that's why I think the kind of the revitalization of small game hunting. I had more fun as much fun hunting cotton tails or squirrels or running around just run around the woods with my friends as I do anything else. So I mean, there's certainly is so much value in that that I think it's coming back. I mean, we might have lost it as a culture a little bit for a while, but I think it's coming back. Oh, I think it is. I am so optimistic about it. But I think there's some structural things too. So if you accept that the activity itself can be a challenge, getting into it shouldn't be. So one of the things I really work on. It's like trying to simplify state regulations, and that's the gateway to participation doesn't have to be as hard as it is because the activity itself, you're gonna find your own way, and it can it can be a struggle, but at least, let's get people to the table, into the game. And I think there's a lot of work that we can do there, um really as a community of citizens, to say, Okay, we want to perpetuate this. This is I want my kids to come back home or to make this a part of their lives that perpetuates my tradition to their great grandkids and great great grandkids. That's an important thing to me. There's there are ways to make it easier. I think the other thing too is I look at our community of people who love this to find their lives by it. There are things that we can do. We we we need to be passing it on to just people who don't look like us, people in our neighborhoods who may express an interest. Share our gear, share time, share knowledge. We as a community of people are kind of hoarders. We hoard our secret spots, we hold our gear, We hoard a lot of stuff. I think over time we need to start to break that open. We need to share a lot more. That's a hard that's so that's a big push for a lot of people. Yeah, And it seems like as you talk, you speak about it and these like broad generalities. It seems you know, it may seem a little bit shallow, but a little bit b dantic or whatever, but to me, it's it's an important conversation is to have and you, like you and I were talking not long ago about do it on a small level. Right. So two examples that i've you know, kind of watched over as long as we've known each other, and then something to talk about the other day. One would be how you brought your kids up, right, and you've written about that in Outdoor Life and covered it there. One of the favorite things you ever did was Iris hunts, which was your daughter. Um, well that's not her first hunting adventures. And so it's that like it's talking about that experience in a human way, right, It's like human interests, like how does this, how does this? How is this delivered from this little girl? Um? And how does she go through it? And the other one is like to return to the low movement for local stewardship, right, like we're talking about the local rod and gun club, yeah the other day. So these are these are very different things. Uh, Nelly's that's the new pin up girl right there? Get him Nelly, hey girl? Um, so those are the two things from you that I really wanted to know about because you know, one is that just the narrative of you and Iris and UH, your two twin sons, how that worked for you in your personal experience. But then greater, how do you feel like, uh, on a local level, we can get back to just caring about our community and using and using that as a way to express hunting and fishing. And I think that that's that's a more personal thing for people to talk about rather than just talk about these at these broad eleven million miss and twelve million. Now absolutely, I think I think that just puts people to sleep. Nobody gets people listen to this like a couple of dudes on their knees on the ice wind housing just talking about some bullshit. But there is there's personal things that happened that you know, shape your shape the way you think about hunting. That it's funny, like I'm a dad of three kids. My boys are twins. It was an easy thing to kind of take them and introduce them to things. But my daughter has had an aptitude for this for a long long time. But I mentioned, you know, there's not a big tradition of her peer group it's kind of funny. She's she's a she's a kid who's looking for Well, that's a good look right there. It looks like a bunch of he headed to California ship. Now what we just what just we have to describe what just drove by? Three dudes on a four wheeler sitting on top of cooler. Each one has a beer in their hand. They got an auger strap to the front, they got they got an ice sled on the back full of buckets of ice fishing gear, and they're just try it's like a parade float. It kind of looks to me like a mobile garage sale. Yeah, it looks like maybe it looks like, you know how the wagon train in the West. Two of those dudes will die before they reach their destination. One will be that's a Milwaukee Light commercial that just drove by us. Boys. I'm so surprised Nelly didn't join that, just because it looked I kind of want to join it. It looks like it was not room for us, though not many In many many ways, there's not room for us there. But anyhow, you're raising your kids, so yeah, so to me, I knew this was something we were going to do anyway. So that was that was easy, but it's it was easy in the sense of I we have the place to do it, and it was to me a little bit of a laboratory. The harder thing to me was, this is a hard thing to say. Is it's gonna sound as you said? And I think it was about me. There was a there was a there was you know, there's a shadow and put it that came from a comedy. Um. I actually think it's easy as hell to teach your own kids these things. What's hard is somebody else's kids or somebody who is doesn't have the same origin point as you do. As we through the Outdoor Life piece, started thinking about how do we talk about making a difference and making this scale Because it was one thing to one to one is how most of us learned how to hunts with her parent or an uncle, family friend. It doesn't scale very well if you think about we're trying to make a big global difference, at least national difference. You've got to figure out a way to replicate yourself more than just once. And so what Outdoor Life. One of our projects was to figure out ways that we could expand the footprint of just one person. You know, the NGOs have done it with pretty well, with field days and all that stuff. We just talked about how kind of shallow that is. So we actually talked about what if each of us take three people out. The kind of the foundational principle for this is if somebody expresses an interest in hunting and ask you to take them hunting and you don't do it, you're an asshole. Yeah, don't be an asso. The problem with that is if fifteen people all express that and you're committed not to be an asshole, you don't have time for yourself anymore. So what's like the asshole thresholds? To me, it's three people a year. That's pretty good hunting a year. But you gotta think about it now. If that's your filter too, you can actually be a little selective because if you're dependent depending to scale this up now you can start to pick and choose people who are gonna replicate your experience to another generation of people. This is kind of the classic pyramids influence the influence. To me, that's the secret for this whole thing. I think there's enough people who have an interest. This is the recruitment part. Of the r y like find people who are gonna follow on with this and follow through with this. What are you wait a minute, we just had a little visitation here. They're pulling out fish galore Chester from r R Bouse's coming. Are we going? What is that for? Is that for us? Fuck? Yeah? Man flopping fish we're gonna eat, will eat them, Come over the office, We'll cook them up for you. No, this is a perfect part of the podcast you made it on you made it on the podcasts as the deliver of fish. Well done, man. So a snowmobile just rolled as it rolled, sluiced up to slide, propelled, was propelled, uh and and out flopped a couple of big lakers. Nelly, those are not for you. They're not for you. She's convinced there has been a faction on the ice. I feel like there's every serious conversation about hunter recruitments should be interspersed with like random visits from somebody. That's the way it h back. So pick your pick your people who are gonna pass it on. The thing I did this past year and the going kind of the community thing is we have a local sporting group called the Highline Sportsman it's not associated with any credit group or anything. It's just a bunch of us the middle of nowhere or who really like to work together, and we really liked to fish and hunt, and we realized that the big scirt groups were leaving out a lot of little small conservation missions like right was, they're saving habitat for turkeys and pheasants and stuff, but what about like the habitat for humans, for people. So one of the things we took on, I was kind of an evangelist about this whole mentor thing, and so we all as a group said, we're each going to take out one person. That's the way to scale it right there too. So there's a lot of people in this town, even though it's we don't have an access, probably got game all around us who know have an experience on hunting our fishing. So each of us who were able to took out one, two, and even three people. And that's what I was saying, that's the hard thing because these people they don't have their own gears. You're sharing their gear. They don't have a place. You're sharing your place, and they don't have they're sharing your time too. To me, that was the heaviest lift of all but holy Cologne. It was also the most rewarding of all to see these people who have never hunder your fish before holding up a gigantic that quarter of a mule they just killed. I mean it's going to take home and feed their families. It's just, uh, where's what's this person going? Right here? This lonely walker across I see Nelly taking them down. The funny thing is, like you would say, this is is this great, you know, philanthropic thing you're doing there, But it really is a rewarding for the mentor as it is for the mentee like it is, and it's like personally, I love it and I love doing it. I've done uh several times, not through a year, which I need to start, but that you know, there's something in it for the mentor. I mean there really is. And it makes you a better hunter because you see it through the eyes of someone that's never like seen it. It opens it up to you. I think that's actually that's a huge part of it. I hadn't thought about two right now. It it made me a much more aware hunter because you're trying to maximize the success of the or whatever mint we've had a hard time figuring out what it's not really an apprentice mintee sounds around of Florida or maybe like a mint um. So whatever that apprentice is um, you know, you want them to have a good time. I think this is the other thing they have to have success. Going out and just seeing game is not enough. Going out and just smelling the her than being part of nature, that ain't enough. They've got to have the at least the chance to pull the trigger. Yeah. Yeah, and you take away that like the constructs for those of us have hunted a long time and feel like we're pursuing like the bigger the animal, the better. You know, if you could strip that away a little bit, that that helped. That's helped me in the past. See that like a man, I had the greatest time. All we did was shoot a hablina and all we did was cook up a havelina. But it was one of the greatest days I've had running around outside, Like all we did was shoot a mess of squirrels, But it's the greatest day I've had a long damn time. And then you start to learn that like if I would just get out of my own way and a lot of these In a lot of these cases, i'd be fine, you know, I just exactly right, exactly right and that. But those people don't know how to get in their way. All they're trying to do is go right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot. But the cool thing is so that. So I took these three people out last year, and my kids participated, to which I'll get it was really neat for my kids to be part of that whole thing. They took them out occasionally too, and and it doesn't stop there. So this spring in Montana there's a window opportunity to put in for special permits. So these people I introduced to hunting last year, like, okay, I'm na take the next step. Where do I put in for elk? Like hell, yeah, that's the way it's supposed to work. Now, I'm not giving away my spot two times work for you? Get out there and you tell me where to go next year. Yeah, it's it's man, It's there's something about it too. So like if if if you're able to man, it'll change not only change the person that you're with, but it'll change you. I teach hunter education here and you know, for all of the listeners. If you don't teach hunter ed, I encourage you to because it's I mean, it's an easy lift, it's easy to do every staate age. She's looking for volunteers to help teach this. This is really just an extension of that. But um, one of the things I noticed in hunter education, we talked about the stages of a hunter. Right. You know, there's the beginner who just wants to shoot. There's the the limit filler who just wants to fill whatever limit is available. Then there's the method. There's a trophy hunter. There's also you know, at the end of the road, there's the philosopher hunter or whatever. I think this is the perfect manifestation of that philosopher hunter. What I noticed is I feel like there's a lot of people in our world who get exposed to this our three discussion who are like, I know I should do it. I feel bad that I don't. I don't think you should. It's a It's the sort of thing at some point in your trajectory as a hunter or a sportsman, this is gonna come to you and you're gonna do it. If you're not doing it now, don't worry about it, but just be aware that your work is needed when it when you're ready, there's gonna be Yeah, there's gonna be demand. We were we were talking about talking the other day about Um, you know podcasting right, Um, you're involved in it a lot of like pretty much everybody that has the capability nowadays is involved in it. And um, that doesn't mean you know, the fact that you can do it doesn't mean you have something to say. And you know, if you would have talked to me six or seven years ago when I first heard about podcasting, had I started one, I wouldn't have a whole lot to say. Yeah, and you know that that grows, right, So it's the same kind of thing. It's like when you're ready and you feel confident, you condified your ideas and the way that you hunt, and you've you know, done all the work that you had to do, then you can open yourself up to given to other people in different ways. But you don't have to force force stuff into it. Man, I would love you for me moving into Montana to teach hunter safety. You know, have my wife and son, come, have my wife cook, you know, big castrole for everybody, and we'll teach unter safety and hang out like that. That would be a great way to spend my life, and I'm sure I would enjoy the hell out of that. When I don't have little kids, I'd probably be better. I'll probably be better suited, you know. So like a time of life. Yeah, it's a time of life for sure. One of the things people ask about all the time, it's like, what's the playbook for this? Like how do I actually do it? How do I break it down? How do I? And I think one of the things that is magical about hunting and fishing and being an outdoors person is there ain't no playbook. You make it up as you go along. But I also think that's the great beauty of it. It makes it hard to replicate, though, because it's it's a handmade thing. Your ability to teach somebody is it's not a mass production. You you've given, you taken pretty small increments, all right. That frustrates the ability to scale this for sure. But I think also those the intimate relationships when you're with one other person in the field, there's no looking away, there's no like escape ground, and so you're kind of forced to face a lot of things, you know, whether it's your own lack of knowledge about things, your own lack of experience. That's a huge point. You just space, like when you're walking around and this has happened to me several times. You're walking around in the woods with someone who's never been in the woods, and they're asking questions, the simplest questions, and you've never thought of these simple questions, like you could say, you could say exactly how and why an elk might be standing in that spot that he's in. Can't tell him. You can't say the tree that he's under or the type of grass that he's punching, you know, or like or understand what the ripe Parian corridor is or uh, you know, explain the taxonomy. There's just there's things that they'll ask that you realize only ship I skipped over that and went right to like the mechanics of my compound bow, and so those things are you know, it's not a problem, Like you know, everybody has those knowledge holes, all of us do. Nobody's perfect, but it's nice to have somebody to like open that up to you and realize that, Man, I need to you know, if I'm gonna teach my son, I need to be able to tell him what that helks eating, why they're eating, and why it's growing there, why it was growing over there where they bed where you know, and those things are important and enriching for the you know, the veteran hunter who just doesn't hasn't seen it in that way, because I know, I don't know if you do, but I know a lot of hunters that can get you to that elk and call that elk and make sure you kill it better than anybody, but couldn't tell you any of the things I just described, absolutely, So I think it like it widens the aperture anyways in many good ways. No fish, Oh no, I'm jigging like a mouf over. I mean, you know, we we get ice in the line. I mean I keep feeling like I have fish because my line waste so much now with accumulated ice. But we're not gonna We're not gonna get there. But tell people describe a little bit about your hunt with Iris and like you know, from her eyes, like you said, she she doesn't have or didn't and doesn't have a peer group of you know, young lady hunters running around with her, so uh, you know, you're kind of through her doing a little trojan horse activity into the local the local population. So I think everybody who has a kid, or even somebody that they take hunting for the first time, was gonna be familiar with this. But like as the teacher, you want success so bad you want it to happen. One of the interesting things with my daughter is so she's a good shot, she's super safe with guns, she's pretty knowledgeable about wildlife, and we're to find him. What I didn't recognize is she's also a total schoolmarm when it comes to ethics and waiting for the perfect shot. The biggest problem for me and I still actually see it with him. And now she's fifteen, we've got four seasons under her belt, and now of course she's become this trophy hunter, not just any fear will do. It's like, what have I done here? What have I done with Nelly? She's heading over to an entire different camp. I'm sure we'll see her again. She'll make it back. She made it out of the ice earlier, She's made it from harder. So you know, as a mentor somebody who's teaching, you kind of get these small victories. Okay, we've we've this case, we were hunting deer, we found the deer, we've executed great stock. Here's this shot we've set up, we've kind of What we as experience hunters recognized is when the stars aligned and everything is right, we act on it. What we forget is we can kind of see when that shot is perfect. What a young hunter, at the beginning hunter doesn't see is there expectation of perfection is different than ours. They think perfection is gonna last forever, and they have all kinds of time to kind of get settled and get the breathing right. I bet with Iris his first hunt, we had five or six excellent shot opportunities, but and it was perfect. It was the most perfect for an uncountable fraction of a second when we as experience sports. But no, that's when you take it. And she would just she would wait too long and then it would become imperfect and she couldn't take the shot. So that was actually a source of great frustration. I had no ability to articulate that to her. I'm like, why didn't you shoot? And I would just you know, I kind of lose my shot a little bit. What I recognize now is that's actually part of the learning curve too, is to say, hey, when things are right there, right, and you have to have the confidence of perception to act when things are right. Yeah, and that's I mean that that takes a long time and the evolution of a sportsman. Oh yeah, well we're talking about that. Let the drive up here with a couple of gas from mediator. About the intersection of like, your ability to make the shot and the opportunity, Like, that's the sweet spot. It's not that you're just looking like the first opportunity to get you just pull the trigger or the first time or you like or you're gonna wait till your ten yards away from an animal is shoot it every time? It's the it's the cross section between you know, the intersection that sweet spot up. I have the right opportunity and I have the ability to make that opportunity to turn that opportunity to success. And that's I think what people struggle with throughout their hunting careers. So what you know, why wouldn't it be be that way in the first shot. Well, we have the accumulated knowledge to know that those fleeting moments may not happen again. Yeah, So it really kind of puts that emphasis on it. We better take it when it happens. If you're a beginning hunter, you think this happens every day all day. So why being in a hurry, why why you know why really emphasized that intersection. And that's right, I mean I think it to me it Um, it's you know, you watch kids, You watch their eyes, man, you just watch their facial expressions. And you know, when I was a kid, I had I missed three deer, wounded a deer, and then had a rifle cartridge not go off on another deer, which I don't think I've ever had had since then. And so it was like my six try I got to hear and this is rifle hunting. You know, none of this deer more than sev yards away. But I was twelve years old, and so I think I was in that situation too. I thought, well, every time this is over, like a two or three day period, I'm like, every time you go out, you get two or three chances out of the deer. So the net, well, the next one will come by, the next one will come by. Um, and you just you with perspective, with with learning, you learn that perspective that's not always the case. He's man, but I just got a deer. Eventually Iris got a deer. She had said, well, this is the other thing, like she borrows this from my dad, who actually he came out here at eastern Montanai at a cow elk tag. We got permission to hunt this ranch where it was full of cow elk, and I said, hey, Dad, what's your effective range? She's like three hundred yards? Like all right, that's great, no, no problem. We got twelve cows at three hundred and eight yards and I'm waiting for my dad to shoot. He wouldn't wouldn't shoot, wouldn't shoot. The cow start drifting away, Like Dad, why didn't you shoot? He's like, well, they weren't a three hundred yards. So Iris inherited this thing from my dad and it was like, hey, two hundred yards is her effective ranch she was shooting with. She was on with the two forty three. Uh. We had blown opportunities inside a twound yards. Finally we had one at two forty and she was not going to take the shot, which I had greatly admired her for. Finally, when things were lined up, she took the shot at like two seventy yards with forty three and dropped a young mule in your buck with one shot. So our first season was a great success. You can actually check it out look at Iris Hunts and there's a whole video series on this whole. It's great. Yeah, it's one of some of the best writing I've ever read the anthor space. I mean, it's fantastic. Um, you know, it'll bring a tear to your eye. But you know, you asked her last night what she was thinking about doing, you know, in terms of like a career. She's a freshman high school. What does she bad? Question? I got, I got a challenge for you asking you. But but I think this tells you a little bit about the potential effectiveness of this. Are three stuff to bring it back to. That is, she defined herself right then, and she wants to be a wildlife biologist or a vetinarian, something to do with both the outdoors and wildlife. And don't discount that. It was actually a pretty good question. Um it'll change, Yeah, I'm sure it will. But that's something that is like has helped define who she is from those early experiences. Yeah, and that's and that's you know, you want to help like give your kids the room to have those experiences. And I think hunting and fishing do that. And it just does. And it's it's if done correctly, of course, or if you know, if done within the responsibility of you know, a good family and you know, just just good ethics and good moralities like those things. It doesn't give kids perspective. And we've said I've said in this podcast before, it's like a three dimensional perspective, right because if you take it, if you just take him to the damn if you're like, hey, I'm gonna take you to uh the amusement park and you'll get to ride all the rights, that's just you go up, you wa, you come you get an experience, you come down, and there's nothing that came from it other than the experience. This is different. You have an experience. It's fun. It's kind of like the roller coaster ride. There's ups and downs, and there's emotions and such. But then those emotions turn into reality when you pull the trick and you kill something, and the benefits you get is the meat and take part in conservation. Those types of things, those the byproducts of of what's there. So it's him and it's the ultimate you know, I hate to say gift, but it is. I mean it is someone. Well, you have been a big part of, I think, kind of changing the conversation around what a trophy is your originally, you know, trophy is all about me and this ego standing behind big antlers. You know, I think you've done a masterful job of changing the conversation. It's actually, here's a trophy picture. It's me with a backstrap or a haunch, and this is the trophy parts of an animal. To me, that next step is when I see a trophy picture, it's you with somebody else. Yes, you've given You've passed it on. That's the trophy. Is this experience that you've given somebody else. Yeah, And I it's funny, I I I've started to like that's a filter that I've started to look at at those field pictures as like two people sharing the experience is a trophy moment. It is. And you know what we started doing. I've had lots of pushback, like you hate fun, you hate smiles, you hate America, And I just say, look highlighting you know, one expression of the like what you the byproct of hunting is fine. We should continue to highlight all the expressions of hunting that are good, whether it's like time you spent with your family or you know, your relation with your dog that that is running across the ice now looking looks so guilty. Clearly got into somebody's space. We got oh Nelly? Now? Um yeah, if we stop, if this podcast stops right now, you'll know that Nelly knocked the recorder into the ice hole. What do you call my dog? What do you call my dog? And I damn icehole? Jeez? I thought maybe I was calling her the wrong name. You looked at me with the saucers. What have I done? What's her name? Or name is not Nellie? Where I work with this uh young lady at Yeddie and call it the wrong name for about three years. So that's what I get. By the way, I can no longer feel my feet below my Yeah we should we can stand up? Oh see you want to be a mentor out and I'm the younger. The two of us can't stand. I literally can't stand. My legs went to sleep. Now we go, yeah, generational right now? Well, you're truly you're soon you'll only be able to be a mentor you can't stand up. This has been very unsuccessful and um fishing trimp man ill freaking I love this lake, look at this believable place. But there's no way I can use my phone to take a picture of this that would do it any justice at all, unfortunately, but it is be it's beautiful. Uh well, if there's one thing you had to tell people about how to how to manage new hunters or how to bring people along, what would you say? Is there any boiler plate, like one line that helps people understand how this is gonna sound just so underwhelming? Just do it? Just do it? I mean it can it can be intimidating. The idea isn't more way more intimidating, I'll guarantee it than the action. Just do it. It's it's an extension of what you do already and who you are already. I'm convinced of it. Um, let's just leave it right there. No, just do it, just do it. We came up with that, but no one else has ever said that. No companies have ever said that we might make a hashtag. All right, So there's this thing I'm doing where I'm trying to test out segments right, because that's what a lot of people have segments. I've never had them, but I'm sorry to test some out. So I got a couple of segments I gonna throw right, no preparation at all. Um. The first one is called hot spot. Cool Dude, That's what I call it, and it's about where I try to convince you to give up one of your hot spots because I'm a cool dude, because you're well you would be if you give it up. I see you see what I'm saying. And so you know you live in this country with all kind of access. Would you be willing to get the listeners of the hunting collective? You're bet one of your best hunting your fishing spots. Just tell them exactly where it is and how they get to it. Are you willing to Well, you're okay, I thought, I don't have to convince you know you're willing to do it, all right? Give it to us, Give it to us, all right. So one of the really cool dynamics over the last ten years has been dove season in Montana. So I think what's happened on a continental basis is there's grain is being planted way farther north in Canada than it ever has been. So it used to be September one, we'd have a big cold front, we'd lose all the doves that we had. September one douve open. What's happened now? September one happens. We lose our local doves, but we get all the Canada's doves here argis Montana, so the dove hunting here can be like Alabama good I'm not sure. For at about two weeks, come to Glasgow, get a block management MAC for reaching six and there's a block management area called the Herd h u r D. It's just out of Glasgow about a mile and a half. It's on a county road. There's the best it's gonna be the best of hunt you've ever had. You just gave him exactly where they're gonna go. And if you and if the herd is full of people who are listening to this podcast, right across the gravel road is called the Spaniard b m A. Go there, Go there and hopefully if it is full that means people actually listen to this, which is good, uh or bad depending if that's your spot. If you I've been exiled from the Highline Sportsman. Listen the Highlight sports Listen up here. Now he's given away a dove spot. That is like, that's you know, the appropriate entry level hotspot giveaway right there. I was hoping you did like that tactical advantage that I mean, it's it's it's a great spot, but it's also good for about two weeks. Yeah, the larger the animal, the more of the hot spot is protected. I feel, is that right because it's the more meat year. But hey, you asked, I gave cool dude, man, cool dude. That's good. I like that segment. I thought maybe i'd have to like really are off some kind of reward or something, but that I'm glad that you gave that to go dove hunting block Management. Come to Glasgow if you ever happen to be coming to Glasgow, maybe see a Glasgow Scottie's Game or something like that. The other one because I know have you've been in this situation the other segments tell me that's not a dog training question. The other one is called damn Near Died. This the other segment I came up with and I made these names up myself so people you could write in and tell me how stupid they are or if they're if they're funny and smart. Um. This one is like where you might have almost died somewhere outside, and I know you have a specific thing. We're probably where you're gonna be thinking, a specific story of where you're in this tribal situation. I want to hear about it. Oh, this one, it's gonna be disappointing, but it was pretty damn scary. In Montana antelope season, there's a block nothing hunt some black man north. It is called Frozen to Death Crick, and the next range over it's called Starve to Death Crick, which should tell you something about the desolation of the country. Was how with my buddy Steve, he shot an antelope and the pickup is about eight miles away on this ridge. As we're taking care of the anild Field restaurant, I realized there was a road way closer to us on the other side. All I did do is go and buy and pick up eight miles away, drive all the way around and get on this other road and cheese. We could just drag the antelope right to it, so I did. I couldn't find the antelope once I went all the way around on this other road. Finally I Steve stayed with it. I found him. Uh, Steve, you said as we got done field dressing the antelope that his back was really bad and I would have to carry the antelope on my back to the truck. So I put it. I put the entire antelope on a frame pack. And one thing. I'm a little guy, but I'm wiry, and I just said, you know what, I'm not stopping. So I didn't. And the last time I looked behind me, Steve was way behind And the next time I looked, he was not there. I never saw him again. Yeah, we're recording recording a podcast. Steve Schindler just showed up. Welcome. We're telling a story about We're telling a story about Steve Dalby, whom you know, shoot an antelope frozen to death, crick and I carried out for him, and he just disappears. So I finally realized I'd have no idea where my pickup is. It's dark at this point, and I got an antelope on my back. The first thing I did, obviously, was got rid of the antelope. Uh, I had no idea where I was. In the middle of this frozen death country. Only I could see was the cooling tower for the cold Strip power plant in the distance, so I knew that way was southeast. But I spent the entire night out there with a wet T shirt from sweating up carrying an antelope. In October, Damn near died, freezing to death. Anyway, that's be called mckenn damn near die and you made it out. I made it out fine. Do you have any effects of your experience? Actually he lost lost a lot of weight. There were two remarkable things. One as just as the sun was setting, a bunch of geese came over, and this is big Alkali flat. I think the geese set their wings and started feathering down. I'm like, are they going to land on one? There's no water around here. One by one the geese bounced across this hard pan Alkali flat. They thought it was water. So I got to see geese totally fooled out, and they were I've never seen an embarrassed goose, but they acted like, oh, I didn't see nobody saw that, nothing to see fly away. The second thing is in the morning, when I came back to find the antelope that I had jettison. I found a big old arrowhead right next to the anod was there like what was the most desperate moment? Most desperment. I was cold that night, I mean I was sweaty. I had zero gear, and I realized the wind was kind of coming up, not quite like this, but it was cold. I realized I needed to protect myself thermally. So I got in this cut bank. It kind of tucked my arms in and it must have fallen asleep a little bit because my grandmother, who had had been dead for several years at the time, kind of came to me in this little little dream state and said, my grandma was not an outdoors woman. She said, just go uphill and you're gonna run into your pickup. So when I when I kind of parsed that out, she was right. As long as I just followed every little rivulet uphill, I was gonna come to a ridge. All the roads are on the ridge. And I did that and I got thanks Grammy. Then he lived today. But floor pack, oh so stee. The reason I was carrying the antelopes, it's like us, I'm gonna mount it. I don't want to, you know, drag the skin off of this potential mount, so we got back to the pickup. He also spent the night on the prairie. We got Rhea reacquainted with each other and he said, no way am I going to mount that antelope. That's a good way to end. And thanks Mr ke We didn't catch any damn fishing. We did drink some beer. My beer is totally frozen, is it? Mine? Probably is too. We were crags to see you. That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thanks to Andrew McKeen and the grand folks of Glasgow, Montana. Fright when I was up here in this beautiful lake here in four pack. If you ever to make it up in this country, please do. It's a great place to be in a beautiful, beautiful part of our world. And hopefully you can all go out there. And as Andrew, Andrew told you, just take three people hunting every year. If you're a veteran hunter, and if you're a new hunter, look for a mentor and find someone that you trust it can show you what they know and then take it from there. It's there's no easy solutions that that's for sure. What else, what else? What else? Well, Uh, we're standing out here in the middle of nowhere. But we we still have some stops left in the Meat Eater Live Tour. We're gonna be Austin, Texas on April two. We're gonna be at the b h A Rendezvous in early May Boise, Idaho. Those are two stops that I'll be at and I'll be on stage there with Steve Yanni Cal and others uh and and fun And speaking of that, you know b h A Rendevus coming up. Hopefully you get out there and see us. It's gonna be a fun weekend for conservation, for hunting, for fishing, and all the things we love to do. And we're also thinking of coming out with some brand new hunting cleftic merch. So if you go to the Meat Eater store and click around, you'll find that Honty Collective merch. But there's some new stuff coming then. I think you all will enjoy. And I think this is a good time to let you guys all know that we are planning a big relaunch for the Honey Collective. A new style, a new format, a bunch of new stuff coming up. Um, we want to relaunch because we want to get better. I've listened to all the feedback. I've heard a lot of things from a lot of people. Um, I've been happy with success of the podcast. When we're not gonna rest on it, we're gonna keep on going and we're gonna do it with you along with us. So without with all that said, see it later, man, We're gonna go try to catch a fish, maybe bring some stuff back home. Maybe a nice lake trout for the friar. We'll see you next time, next Tuesday with the Honey Collective. See you, fe