00:00:02 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I'm Ben O'Brien and this week I'm joined by a lot of an eagle, the great honest but tell us in the Meat Eater Incorporated Office here in Bozeman, Montana, and we're going to have a conversation in this episode about ethics, really just Q and A about ethics. Everybody out there listening. We asked you to to send us some questions or quandaries around ethical situations and hunting and you and you did that in spades, and we really appreciate that. Man. There was a lot of responses. We couldn't get to them all, but I think we got some good ones. And the reason why I think Yanni is the best to tackle some of these quandaries is the fact that there's not a whole lot of fluff where the eagle is involved. He kind of says what he means and means what he says. There's not a whole lot of extra burbage in there, and that's why I like about the eagle. So hopefully you enjoyed this episode on in Collective featuring Yeah, I need to tell us, all right, what are you saying again, I was saying that you and I were taking deep breaths getting ready to start podcasting and talking. And uh, it reminded me that listened to a Ted talk. I didn't watch it, and I just listened, and the gal studied about it was basically like human um body posture and like the sort of endorphins that your body creates as you're in different postures and like though and and then she compared like male postures and female postures the postures that I'm in right now with like the feet kicked up on the table and you aren't your hands blocked, your fingers locked behind your arm, elbows out to the side. She called that like the president like or something like that. And there's all these pictures of like Obama and Bush and dude body is like at their desk, feet kicked up and it's a very powerful posture, right, she was saying. So there's the test that she did, and it's remarkable to listen to this. Like she people were going into an interview and some people were just sat in the interview room um curled over their phones doing whatever, you know, hunched over. The other people were asked to like for two minutes going to the other room and basically stand around like superman like, arms crossed, chest, pumped out, legs, kind of spread out, stretch your arms, do some stuff like that. And like it's like everybody that did that just scored exponentially better by doing that one simple thing. That it's a confidence thing. Yeah, because like whatever, I forget the endorphin, a chemical whatever that was released in your body. But and again it goes. And she was comparing it to the male versus female thing that in like a classroom setting, it's males assume those postures much more often, And she was and that might be a big reason that why in a classroom mail might jump up and answer a question faster, sooner, or just feel more confident to do that in the first place. Well, now I feel a little a little conscious about my posture right now. I'm a little uncomfortable moving back and forth in my chair. Well, now, I always started, I always look at other people. Now I'm like, it's been exhibiting a presidential posture or is he leading over his phone? Like yeahs in the basement, are you confident over there? I'm relaxed. I'm relaxed. I don't feel we should be. Man, it's two pm on a Friday and snowing, we're watching it come white outside. Uh, you know, the weeks over, we both I think we both really kicked ask this week. I think, yeah, yeah, I think you did well. You went at the at the cookbook launch event downtown Bozeman. You signed boy a couple I think it was uppards, you know, seventy five books. I think you signs. Took a couple of pictures with some fans. We had fans man from New Jersey. Yeah. Man, those guys came up to me, They're like, oh, I was. We were on the plane from you know wherever, from d C. I was like, what you came that far? Oh yeah, we came from New Jersey. I think they might have came there ironical because of the cat lady comment you never know we're going we're going there. But yeah, they just came for just that event. And they were like, so, what else you guys do? And they said, we're karaoke last night. They said they tore it up. Yeah, like we tore it up here. Yeah. I was like, everybody sings along with that song. That's the perfect karaoke song, you know, what man, I'm ashamed, but I'm not. I'm not like a really good music guy. But like, I've heard of that song, but I can't right now think, oh I've seen that, that's that one, that's the Queen. Yes, yeah, I'm probably wrong, somebody proud of myself. I was probably way wrong, but I think that I'm I'm pretty sure that's right. I've often had h right in if I'm wrong, right in po Box one to I still don't have I don't have that Peo box set up. Gotta get that going. Um, how's everything else going, Johnnie? I mean you're traveling around a lot filming season eight of Meat Either TV, launching a pretty fantabulous cookbook that you were a primary part of, and a new company. What's just lay out there? Lay it out there? Yeah, I mean you're hitting the nail on the head, and now I'm asked to look to the future and think of other big ideas that we can act upon. Ye. So, yeah, I got some stuff up my sleeve. I don't know if I'm willing, I'm ready. Yeah, but there's some things thanks working on that are outside of what everybody's used to reading or listening to but yeah, man, exciting times over here, very much is very much content creators almost weekly. Yeah, no, we're we're cranking out. You know, if you're listening to this, you're not going to the media dot com. Shame on you, your bastards. Uh, there's been a lot of good reading on There's Pat Durkin's article on Dirk deer p Dirk p oh you said, pe Dirk calling pete um But yeah, what what deer smell? That was good? Like article about uh killing or not to kill Marlon? Yeah. No, Pat's got two more pieces coming out of fact. One just went live today on how dear smell and how we try to fool them and then we probably never really fooled them. But he also had one on deer vision. You know, Mark Kenyans did a lot of stuff around the rud white Tail lockdown. You know, it's it's it's looking good over there. I think we're working on it. We'll get there, keeping it fresh, keeping it Yeah, I think we're keeping it real though as well. It's real hot tip offs. I can't believe how many people were like, you gotta do this with a hot tipoff? Are you gotta do that with a hot tip off. And I can't believe that Steve's always one of those hot tip offs. You're a hot tip officer, always way better Steve just he's got the gravy toss and he's got he knows he's the boss. That's why I's winning. Like he's got all the he's got all the cards, tacks in your in his face. Man. People always are like, dude, you're always taking a high tip. You know. I'm like you, guys, haven't gotta understand that this is my job and if my job requires a little bit of that, and the rest of my job is what it is, and I'm very happy and play along. I am exactly the same way man, and my former the job I had prior to this one, it was very much too identify folks like Steve and other people that are very influential and support them in their relationship with the Jettie. And it wasn't like I wasn't the guy doing all the I wasn't the ambassador. I was the guy supporting those bucks. Super fun to do. It's not always fun to be the guy in front. Sometimes it's nice to be exactly standing next to the guy. People. It's easy I think people do recognize that, but it's also easy to forget. Man that that the limelight. Uh it's not quite twenty four seven, but I think it's he says his name with the Internet. It's like he's getting to be that way. And um, it's a lot of pressure and you can't turn it off. You can't just choose to turn it off, especially when you're you know, when your life is wrapped up and you can't be like I just I'd like to get out of there until you drop, Mike drop, you know, that's what you need to turn it off. But you can all do that. Yeah, but I don't feel like Steve is doing that or how I'm doing that, or you're doing that anytime soon. Maybe eventually, But it's too easy to sit in the room and talk. Let's do what quick shot out of a canon hot tip off snow related hunting hot to snow related. This is like the maybe the new hot tips spontaneous hot tip off planning snow related. What the things you do in the snow? Was some snow last week in Michigan. I'm trying to think what it would be a hot tip tip cold in the tree stand, you know, uh, it almost burned me. It didn't. But you know, if it's snowing, or if it is the snow is melting, be careful how long you wait to blood trail um because I did that and ended up waiting like a couple three hours just because we had some other stuff going on. It was cool. I didn't think that, you know, there's no real need to go blood show immediately. And then we started on the blood trail. And then because it had snowed a little bit more, but more it had been melting, that it was starting to get hard to follow that blood trail. So be aware, you know, be aware of that. Yeah, my only real hot tip around that is make sure everybody's you know, just doing all days. Sit, be limber, stand up, stretch your freaking shoulders, stretch, make sure you're moving. Don't be moving around too much that the deer might spot you. But every once, every couple of hours, stand up and stretch it out. Draw your bow maybe if you need to be careful not to dry fire the thing, but make sure when you stand up your muscles aren't so tall, you know, aren't so stiff that you can't draw your bow smoothly, because then you get around the tree. Oh man. When I was doing it, and I know it definitely could have cost me. But any deer that came through, if it wasn't well it was there was not the buck or whatever I was trying to shoot at, I would try to draw on it. Yeah. Yeah, that could be dangerous. And you definitely come and then you look back and there's you know, a big boy. But um, it's good to do because I just feel like that what you gain from doing that it almost outweighs like the risk you're taken because you do it. And also you realize like, oh I didn't see that limb there earlier, that I really can't take this shot, or or when can I Like, Okay, the deer's coming from he's coming in into the wind. I'm safe. He's coming right down this trail way, you know, So I draw here, Oh I draw right back into the camera guy, or I draw right back into a limb that's right at this angle. So if you do that, if you've I always you know, have my shooting lanes, and I always draw to each shooting lane, so I kind of have an idea of oh, here he comes, I'm drawn to the shooting lane and it becomes different. I can always move, but at least I know kind of like what that motion looks like. And if it's not banging my elbow and a freaking you know, on a hook or something and make a noise, that's my hot tip. That's good. It's a good hot tip. Man. I was doing some of that last week in the cold. Um. I was doing air squats. I think I call him air squads. Is an air squat just doing a squad with no weight? Yeah, yeah, okay, so I was doing the sets of thirty. I felt like that would really bump up my cored tampa plus your core temps going. Yeah, so if you're sitting there, you can get I would get to the point where I'd be like, okay, it's eleven o'clock, it's snow in a rain or it's getting super cold, and get my phone out kind of like get myself, you know, have some soup, do a little like one hour phone session so I can my mind can settle and um get a little stimulation. And then you know, even after an hour an hour and a half, you stand back up and you're like you're stiff. And I had that happened in Illinois, like three or four years ago. I was shooting one of those. Uh so I shooting like the bow tech maybe insanity as a super harsh turnover. The draw cycles were rough, and I had a a buck come down the strange to my right, and I had to turn my entire body because I was kind of the trees day was facing off to the left, turn my entire body and draw across my body. And I was so stiff I could barely do it. And I and I there was one I got about half half draw and had let down and then shift my body so I could get a solid drawn. I'm doing all that other there's a buck of fifty yards rather than just being a folds drawn and killing the thing. So hot tips. Yeah, there's no one here that can choose the winner. Spontaneous hot tips right into the right in tell us the winner, I'll choose. You think that was a pretty good one. I'm pretty confident it was a little bit more cold related. Yeah, but you know you've been living in Texas last few years. I'll give you a path. Yeah. Yeah, Actually I could do like rattlesnake related hot tips. I'd have none for that. Um, okay, here's what we're gonna do. Ethics. Hunting ethics, I think um. On this podcast in particular and also in the media podcast, there's a lot of conversation around hunting ethics and generally situational hunting ethics, like what happens in this situation? What do I do? And so I, uh, if days ago asked for folks on the Instagram to submit some stuff, So we go over to Yanni, are you prepared to go over some ethical quandaries? I am. I'm actually googling ethics definition so that we can. I think that's a good yes, that's a good starting point, a baseline of what we're talking about. What do you got? Two definitions? Moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity, and to be the branch of knowledge the deals with moral principles. I like that moral principles what we're talking about. And I guess hunting be being the killing of another living thing. It's pretty fraught with moral an ethical quadries and principles both. So this will be a good conversation. Um, We've got a lot of them, so we'll see how many we can get through. But I will start by saying thanks to everybody that that wrote in and and uh, I'd like to lead with the light one if you don't mind the honnie please. Uh. This came from Calm Pete. He says, is it okay to say hunting is fun anymore? What is your thoughts um ethically speaking? For sure? I don't really know if that's even an ethics or moral question, but I think it is. I think the way you pose it is not necessarily an ethical question, but I think ethically it's presenting yourself as an ethical hunter. How much, how much joy, how much fun can you display? That's what he's probably getting. Is it ethical from a hunting stampoint you display how much fun you're having when you're putting yourself out there to the public. Well, it's good a point out too before we get into that. Back to morals and ethics is that they're always personal, of course, right you know, like your community, your family, your community sorts sort of gives you the outline of what they should probably be. You in the end have to decide what they're going to be, and they're always determined by your experiences, your perspectives, your value systems. Like you said that are either instilled in you or vices you developed through you know, your life, life experience experiences. So I think this question is more of a little bit more about how like you know someone else is going to judge you. Yeah, so yeah, But I think in general there's some ethics and hunting around how you display it just because of the situation where you know. But uh, for me personally, I definitely talk about hunting and use the word fun death on everything, almost everything about it. The killing itself is not always fun um. Sometimes it can feel good, sometimes it can feel bad. But for the most part, Yeah, I think it's totally okay to do that as But again that's like he that's way too simple of an answer, because you can go nuts with fun and turn it into like a circus. And I don't think that's really cool to apply that to the hunting. Well, I think it's it's it's some Yeah. Again, it gets back to the person by person. Think, if you know that you're a very emotional person by nature, hunting is going to bring that out of your times too, because you've just done you know, if you if you just talk about specifically about the killing of the thing, is that fun or not. I think that's probably what old Colum Pete's getting that too. Is it ethically? Am I like, is my if I moral principle that is that I have fun while killing an animal? Or killing an animal is fun to me? Is that morally sound like to be able to say that? You know? And I would say, like, don't The killing of the animal should be part of the process, but maybe not the fun part. I mean, it can be exhilarating, it could be a lot of things, but I don't know that fun. Maybe we should define fun, but I don't know that fun is the way. So is it? You know? Can we say to the question that can we say, honey, is fun? Absolutely? We should say it's fun because it is. If it's not fun, you're just you're probably a weirdo. Um, we should say it's fun. Now, how we display that fun? Isn't this another another question? I think? Morally? Um, I think you should. You should display your emotions how they come. You shouldn't be fake about how you display it. But you should also think about when there's other people around you that that have never experienced that, how did you get that across them in a way that makes sense, and I think Steve Alis says, you know, I like meat and I like to have fun, and if hunting, if I lost either of those two things, I wouldn't do it. I can agree with that, But so we think it's okay to say it's fun. You agree with that I do. You can't take your tank, can't take it too seriously, take it too seriously, we say, um, let's get to a little bit longer one. Let's see this came from coyote Charlie. He says, I was wondering about fenced hunting. From what I know, you're you meaning me, are pretty familiar with Texas, so you might have some thoughts on this. And you've hunting Texas, but not have you ever hunting high fence? Okay, I've hunting dogs that were flying across high fence range, but that doesn't count. That counts I I was in there. We are not hunting that wild stuff high fence hunter. Uh, you might have some thoughts. I'm pretty against fenced hunting. And the raising of bucks is livestock with unrealistic, freakish anilers. So that's so that's defines that defines wrong. But as far as fence hunting in general, what is your what do you think about the space for hunting? Is it still fence hunting if it's five thousand acres obviously three to five hundred acres would be a huge place in some areas, but some places not. What do you think about when does it become fair chase? And what's your opinion about the size of the acreage high fence ranch? What do you think about that? Is there a is there a I guess this question is ethically in the in the application of fair chase. Is there a point in which it becomes fair chase based on the amount of acres that is fenced? Right? And uh man, it's gonna vary so much from situation to situation. And again, I think you're just gonna have to make your own call while you're there, because it doesn't matter if it's five acres or five thousand acres. If you've cornered the animal against the fence, it's not fair chase. Yes, well, I think like you said, it's I think it's based on the animal you're chasing and the south. So let's say like an average range of a white tailed deer is a square mile, Is it then ethical to say, if the fence covers square mile, then that white tail on average has enough room to roam that he could be naturally have patterns and he would be not restricted by fences. Do you feel like that's true? He's still restricted though, yep? What about two miles? Now twice is average range still restricting? What about three miles? I don't know what the cutoff is gonna be because I guess if you go to the extreme and let's just say, well, let's just say we put a fence around lower which in the way you kind of have because we have fences on borders that you know, it's sometimes they're not made for wildlife to pass through. And then on either coast you have these things called oceans, which prevent most animals from moving large bodies of salty water. So, uh, you know, we have some sort of enclosure. We do, but obviously it's all fair. Chase. Yes, I so I hunted in Texas on a high fence ranch some years ago. He I was working for Patian Sunny magazine and a certain company called me up and said, hey, we'd like to do this hunt. Film it for television show. And I said, well, I don't do high fence, so I'd rather not go. They said, hey, we would love to you to come down, experience in since you've never done it, and then write about your experience as to whether it's fair chase or not. This this I remember, this particular place is about a little bit over five thousand acres. It had once been they had bought, they had once bred deer there, but it had been years since they had actually bred any deer there. So there were breed or deer in the fence, but they had not been actively you know, call it captured and bread at any point. So there they're they posited to me like, hey, you know after the hunt was over, which it was not fair chase. I mean, we did a lot of things that we're you know, like drive drive past a year that was bedded, get out, slammed the door, it would run, and then we would chase it and kill it, you know like that that's what they'd like to do. Okay, so that it's not fair chase. But but they would say, hey, look you got after that deer. You saw that deer, We went after it, tried to kill it, it got away. Mm hm. Fair chase. That's what they kept saying to me, if you pursue a deer and it can get away from you, or you can hunt it for multiple days and not kill it, fair enough for the animal, the fair chase, if you can get away from you effectively, it's fair. What do you got, Johnny? That sounds fair? Um? Does sound fair? Yeah? I guess as long as you like never use the fence to your advantage. Maybe that's a caveat I throw in there. You wanted to call it fair chase. Yeah, And I think the defense is whether you use defence or not, you're still an advantage. Whether you run them up against defense or not defence, Still it gives you an advantage of somebody that's unting, whether there is no offense. So do we do? What do we say? What are we gonna say? What's the what's the final verdict? Is there an acreage that is significant enough that you would say it's fair chase? I would? I would have to just I guess wonder, like, what's what significance is defense? Then? For where you're at, like there's just a bunch of exotics in there, is that the reason for the offense? Are you trying to keep something inside there that you don't want to get out. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of places in the world where they're like, you know, Africa's being one. We put up senses to keep poachers out, right, you know, not to keep the animals in, and there's not you know, a lot of people in texts tell the same thing we but even for me, like if you take it back to our model wildlife conservation, you know, animals are held in trust by the states and belong to everyone. So as soon as you put up a fence, yeah, that's right. They don't belong to everyone. They don't belong to everyone. So it just has a principle to me, the fence is a problem. Now when it gets into like the fencing exists and you can't do anything about it. Is there some fair chase that could be had inside of that fence, I would say, principally maybe. But the hunter then can't say, oh, when given the option I take the high offense and have any scruples. You gotta you gotta not, you gotta avoid that at all costs. I would say, yeah, I mean, can you go to a ranch like that and get real world hunting scenarios where you're gonna get blown out and be frust aided and learn hunting skills by going there and chasing these animals, for sure. But like you're saying, it always gives you an advantage. Somewhat slight, but it always gives you. There's really nothing you can do about it, all right, Well, I I can't decide on the size, don't have high fence. Just don't do it. Though if you do it, you're probably you can make up a story about it being fair chase, but you're they're always going to be an argument against that. You're never gonna have a pure you know, we talk about purity scale. You're never gonna You're never gonna have a high score. Those defense involved just not. You may be able to talk yourself into fair chase, but it's really at the end of the day, it's not as pure as it could be, no matter how big defenses. Here's another one, this what's called This is from Crozy Talk. He said, I have a question, thank you. Is it ft coal to take a tree stand that is left on public land? In Minnesota it is illegal to leave a stand on public land and most of the state. I'm interested in hearing your opinion on tree stands or trail cameras left on public lands. What do you think, Janny, I think yes, if you've watched that stand and it's past the uh a lot of time that it's allowed to be there, and if it's got the dude's name number on it, he's probably calm before you walk out of the woods with it. But uh, yeah, if someone's being lazy doesn't want to pack their stand back out of the woods like they're supposed to, I don't have anything for any problem with it. So you're now you feel like you're policing, policing the public land. I wouldn't consider it be like like you're doing any sort of policing. Um, I mean, I guess it's that's like that's his motivation. I would say, you don't need to go police somebody. But if you're like, I'll use that stands somewhere and I'll pack it in and out of the woods. I'll clean up the woods because it is nice not to have woods full of tree stands. Yeah, like that's what's happening on a lot of private property across the Midwest. Fro have hunted deer and it gets a little like just yeah, it kills the zen feeling of just walking through the woods. And just like every corner of every ladder intersection, Yeah, ladders sticking everywhere. Yeah, and then the ladders that are rotting in and falling over just there in the graveyard and there's a new ladder just standing where it used to stand. Um. Yeah, but now experience now, guys, especially like you said, on private land. Now, dudes, are you know hanging three stands for wind direction? Like we got a southeast wind, I gotta sit here and within you know, a quarter square mile or within a small air you've got three or four stands hanging, just depending on where the winds blown. And if you do that four or five times over, then you've got t stands on however big a property you got. But when it comes to public land, I mean, I think obviously it depends on what the rules are. But in the case of Minnesota, where this guy saying it's illegal to leave him up or a certain amount of time, I mean I tend to be a you know, a bit of a pacifist where this is concerned. I'd probably leave it alone unless I felt it was really hindering my or anyone else's hunting, probably leave it alone. Um, But if I felt it was kind of egregious where I was, or um, you know, it was then a hunting spot that I valued and I knew nobody came back to get it, I'd probably remove it. But I wouldn't just at a principal walk over and grab one that I didn't think had a negative effect on me specifically, Would you take it just because you needed to stand and you're like, that's clearly that one's been there long enough, I'll take it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean once you if if if the rule says you can't leave it there, and it's I think the person that hangs a stand, they come If you hang a stand and leave it up there for three weeks and know that's against the rules, and you come back and it's gone, you can't bitch. Oh hell no, you're forfeiting forefeiting your stand, So whatever happens to it, you can't bitch. So I would say, ethically, this guy's probably as long as he's as long as he's thought about it and constructively thought, hey is this. Let me give this a little bit of time, and then I'm taking it down. Yeah, And didn't say like, oh man, I forgot my stand, pull this one down and hanging up somewhere else, or you're not you're not advocating, and go steal stand. There'll be a dick, is what I guess what I'll say, Um, do it for a good reason and feel but feel free to do it if somebody leaves it up there too long. That's right land On now agreed, Agreed, So it's ethically okay. I think it's athlete. I think it's ethinitely okay. I don't I don't know. Like I said, I'm more passive on this, so I don't know um what I would do, but I would probably avoid taking it unless I felt like I had to take it. That's what I feel. Next one came from hard t N. Why are some bow hunters okay with just slapping a bow together without testing their equipment? Then when they make bad shots with their gear isn't effective, They don't try to improve themselves or they're gear to ensure that they are bow hunting as ethically as possible. The question is why are they okay with that? Well? I think the question is The question ends up being if are you an unethical hunter? If you are not tending to your gear properly. When why are you? Okay? And then and I know, like you got the if you both hun You know, people that our weekend warriors that aren't spending the time with their equipment that they need to. It doesn't mean they're lazy, doesn't mean they're assholes. It just means maybe they'll have enough time and they still want to go hunting. But does that make you an unethical hunter? See? I feel like there is a little bit of laziness involved there. Yep. Well, there may be like a prioritization issue, like what are you prioritizing over that? Because when you're going out, if you don't have time to practice, you don't have time to hunt. My opinion, that's what I would say. You agree with that, Yeah, And obviously it's it's a personal decision. You know you can do that. And I guess if you value just being able to go out there and hunting fling arrows over take that time to practice so that you're not just flinging arrows. Um, that's your decision. We can't tell you this. I don't think we can. I can tell tell you that it's ethically wrong, but is it ethic? Well, yeah, I mean it's to what level you want to apply those ethics right, Like, yeah, I'm not gonna apply my ethics to them. What I like to do is practice a whole bunch and be feeling like, um, you know, doing the best job that I can. You know, when I'm gonna shoot at an animal, Is that your threshold for being an ethical bow hunter, having like done your best to make a good shot? Yeah, big part of it. So then if you apply She's like, Okay, that's the if. That's what an ethical bow hunter is. Somebody who has done their to the best of their efforts, trained and practice and tune their equipment to make sure that they can make the shot when it present itself. You know, if you screw it up in the moment, you screw up in the moment. I mean, that's happened to everybody in their hunting lives. It just happens. But for me to be an ethical bow hunter, you have to be in you have to be in the pursuit of getting better all the time. To be an ethical bow howner, You're you're gonna start out really terrible. You might be really terrible for quite some time. But you you can't be lazy enough or apathetic enough to not be getting better, like just to pick your bow up once a year, shoot at the twenty yards, hit two three arrows near the bull's eye, and go out hunt, because you're not improving it by doing that. But you have to be to be an ethical hunter, always getting better, always learning more, always like you have to, I think, because if you don't, you're talking about specifically with shooting your bowl, or what if you just spend all that time just learning to be a better tracker and a better guy picking out better stand locations so that you get closer, more closer shots. That's a good point. But when's have become about the one thing I guess about slapping bows together? Yeah, let's you get back to just slapping a boat together. Because if your boat, if you're site, if you're not sited in, if if you're if your draw length isn't right, if your peep sites you know, not set right. Yeah, and this could apply to muzzle loaders, rifles, anything. Yeah, Um, but I think it's probably more prevalent in archery because there is such a wide gap between buying a bow and knowing what to do with it, I believe. And there's also a big, big, old fat gap between going and buying a bow at a bowshop and buying it from somebody that's knowledgeable and that can point in the right direction. In fact, I have had a buddy that came to Bearcamp with us that had a thumb release and was shooting it the wrong way. He was shooting it with his knuckles on his cheek as opposed to like this. He had gone to bowshop, somebody sold him that and told him to do it m so, and he put he put a photo on Instagram and he's got a lot of followers and people just blew him up for it. His draw length was an inch too short, he has release turned the wrong way, and he went to a proa shot yeah in Texas, and that's what he got. And so I think there's like a gap there too. So you like trust someone to tell you to do it the right way, you know. So what's your what's your responsibility in the end, Johnny, what's your responsibility as to the to the working nature of your equipment? Well, I think it's a You're gonna have to decide just what I mean, maybe yeah, maybe, always continuing to get better. Maybe that's a good way to put it. But do you guys to decide what where you're like, at what level you're ethically comfortable at that moment? And I think that maybe it speaks to being ethical when there are times when you say, you know what, I haven't shot enough, one of my equipment is not dialed in enough. Instead of going honey, I should go do that. Yeah, I've done that a lot of the tin a hunter just means having that conversation with yourself. Have you ever done that, Like got to a trip and like, I gotta take a day off hunting so I can get my stuff dialed um of definitely. We did that in Michigan this last time. We didn't hunt like our first morning in camp because we knew we just had to, you know, shoot bowls a little bit and get dialed in. You know that's so important when you travel to hunt because air pressure is different, you're different altitude and humidity, your boat is traveled. You gotta shoot man, Yeah you do. Yeah, No, I've I've done that. I do that a lot. When you get into camp and you have either an outfit or your buddies, like, let's go, let's go, let's go and get it treated like chill, like um and or like you said. You can then put yourself in a scenario where you only have like twenty yards shots you know, where you know very high probability you can make that shot. You don't set yourself on a field edge where a deer can walk hunter yards eight yards, fifty yards. Set yourself when get yourself in a thick spot in between with a lot of cover where deer coming in tight on you and stuff like that. You can you can do that to mitigate it. But that that again is just being aware that maybe your equipment is more needed it needs to be and setting yourself up for success rather than just climbing in the same old tree with the same old bow that you shot once in September. Now it's November. Yeah, And I don't want to sing about bowl hunters for feeling like they do that anymore. You know, as a guide man, I saw it across the board. Dudes coming in, you pick up their rifle and look through it, and their cross hairs look like an X. Like really, have you looked through your and you look through your sculp any time in the last I don't know decade, like you know, obviously they didn't prepare themselves. Yeah, no, I think that's in. I have some first world problems. I showed you guys to shooting the show. The media shows like you get into this like travel, travel, travel, travel, always using different weapons, and you're like, I got three days before my trip and my wife needs me to do this, this and this I got. I'm really busy at work. Should I didn't make it to the range, I'm gonna go anyway. I'll take this rifle and when I get there, I'll shoot it in. Then when you get there, like, well, we don't really have a range for you. Um, just shoot once over that rock and you shoot. You're like, I think I hit it. That's good. Then you go out and hunt with the rifle you're not sure about. Next thing, you know, you crack one in the freaking ear or shoot its leg off, and then looking back you're like, WHOA, that's my fault. M M, that is my fault. That's the worst case scenario. Or you your buddies like, I'll bring it rifle for you, don't worry. I shot it in. I sighted in for you. And you get there and they hand it to you and you go hunt, and you know, shoot one in the ass and wonder why. So same with rifles. I mean that's that probably happens more. Nobody's just like hand you a bell and says, hey, here, here, shoot my bell. Usually, so it can't happen more with rifles, probably them than archery tackle. Yeah, definitely. I've been the one that handed him over, and I've been the one that has taken him. And I always anytime, even though I know that I took that gun to the range and shot a nice group with it, I always tell him, like, you should go shoot it, Yeah you could, just as much for the ethics as uh. I just want to know, yeah, that I'm gonna kill something confidence man. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's where like aesthex and hunting gets a little bit shady, because you know, there there is everything. Everybody's different and you apply to different things in different situations. But at the same time, like your ability to kill the thing is part of your ethical responsibility. I think I think you can't disconnect it to at the very least, And so you know, you could be a you can prepare and prepare and prepare and then always lose it in the moment, you know, But I think that's that's okay. But you can. But if you don't prepare, then you can't. You can't call yourself enough ethical hunter if you don't care enough to get prepared. No, okay, this next one, Lance b r He says, here's one for you. We live in Saskatchewan, Canada. A friend of mine had been hunting a property owned by his dad purely for hunting purposes. So the dad owned this property purely for hunting purposes. We've harvested elkin moves from the same area and we always have a great time white tail hunting there, and past years we've all hunted it together, including his dad and the property owner. We've had a great time. So this year I invested a ton of time weekends, trout cams stands to help get ready for a great white tail week in November to try and target some of the mature bucks we've been seeing. Just yesterday, eight days before general season, he tells me he would prefer to hunt it only with his dad to make sure they get the big bucks for themselves. I'm left with a week off from work and nowhere to go. That's cold, Yeah, what the hell do I do? He also says the ethics question. He also says, I don't want to be a slime ball, but I kind of feel like I got screwed over. They're a great family and good friends, but I'm a little confused as to why it took them so long to let me know any thoughts or advice or how to handle this situation. I think this will probably go back to ethically, in the situation of his friend and the dad, how do you handle that situation if you have, like and I've been in this situation before where I had a really good friend who had a lease. I wasn't on the lease or paying for it, but he always let me go. And then I always knew. I always knew that because I didn't pay, at any time he'd be like, hey, man, looked up, can't go. So I didn't have any expectation, even though I helped him hanging tree stands and hunted there a lot and killed deer there, that at any point in time that it was there prerogative to tell me stay home, homie. So I think the question of the ethical question here is if you're the friend and the dad, how do you manage that, like, how do you, like, how should the friend and the dad be acting? Yeah, you gotta go, you got a guy, you gotta buddy. It's been doing it much of work for you. They've been cranking work for it. And you've expressed to him that that you can hunt this week and thanks for all your work, and that's you've paying your dues enough to hunt, and then on the back end to side like, ah, rather just be the two of us? Yeah, I think you're being a little greedy and uh, a little bit of a yeah, you think of all kinds of bad names, a little bit of a dick, yeah, but that, but I think overall, the question then becomes like, how do you handle that relationship as the person who's doing the work but not guaranteed a spot and the person who has. I mean, it depends on how well he knows that family, But I mean, if I was in his shoes, I'd have a real serious sit down with them and be like, look, man, I feel like I got kind of burned on this thing and putting a lot of effort into it. Um, you know, I don't know. I mean, I understands your property, but you know, we kind of hunt hand this understanding, and you know, let's let them react to you bringing that up and and hopefully if your guys are good friends and you can put it on the table and discuss it and come up with a solution. But don't be a dick. That's kind of like you could lose a friendship over doing something. Have you ever had like I had a cousin growing up that we we had were very contentious over hunting spots, and like he was always very jealous and we always and I know a lot of people have lost friends over hunting spots and lost friends over like permissions, and like people get weird, especially in the white tailed world where you like we're managing for bucks and somebody shoots the wrong one, or you ever lost a friend over something like that and they've gotten a big gotten a big uh. No. Never, I haven't, no, because we hunted like this pretty much the same private land growing up for deer, and that never came up. And then when I moved out West, I started hunting mostly public land, and ah, I don't know, never really uh abused spots that I was taken to, I guess, and it never came up. It came up for me when I was a younger kid, but then once I got older, you just picked people to hunt with and pick landers and spots where you don't think you're gonna get into that. But I know, Mark Kenyon, it wasn't probably wasn't punitive or you know, the guy wasn't being a dick, but had an agreement with the landowner and drove all the way out I think it was Nebraska or somewhere and got there and guy was like, it's not gonna work. Somebody else's on this. And then I can said, you can't get mad expect Well, no you can't. His prerogative. But if it's a friend of yours, yeah, it's been investing all kinds of time and money. Yeah, man, Yeah, you're being a dick. Don't be a dick. That's a T shirt. It was a T shirt, Johnnie. Yeah, be nice, be real nice. Yeah. I feel terrible for you to start putting that on T shirts. People should just know that. Parents tell your kids, don't be nice. Be nice. Be nice to our kids daily, Be nice to each other, every maybe next to everybody. Whatever. Yeah, I don't. I learned from another a good friend of ours. Um Carmen. I heard her tell her kids when they are being little ships and I forget what sort of how the outlash is happening, but somebody wore they were not being nice some way. She said, look, I know that you may be tired, you may be hungry, we may have a dirty diaper, whatever it might be. But the one thing that we are not allowed to do is be nasty. We're just kind of like saying be nice, and uh, I really like that, and and it worked. It seemed to like make her kids kind of stop and be like, Okay, you're right. I'd like to drop that all my kids a lot of times, to be like, look, man, I know something's got you all fired up, but that does not allow you to react in the way you're reacting to the problem. Right now, you can still have a really bad day and just sort of like like grace is like something that's still I think above them. And I haven't really introduced the idea of grace, which I'm gonna hammer on him later in a lot, but right now, it's just like be nice. Yeah, I mean, I might be Even my two year old like we He learned time out pretty quickly when he was like and now he puts himself in time out, really yeah, walks over and sits down and puts himself in time out because you know, like he like self regulates himself. He's like, I've been being a dick. He'll do something and I'll be like James and He'll just like around and walk over and sit down because I and he has like this weird awareness of of you know, he knows at least he knows that his mother and I are like the judges now of because he just doesn't have as much awareness to know, but he knows. He has enough awareness to realize that, like when we're upset, something's gone wrong here and we all need to shape it up and be nicer. And so he always like he'll get carried away emotionally as a two year old always does, and like maybe swing and hit somebody and immediately go put himself in time out, and I'll stand him up, and I'll be like hug and kiss, and they'll hug and kiss and then go and give everybody like almost immediately it understands like, oh crap, So I hope that could use. I hope we don't lose that along the way. But even for a two year old, there's like some there's definitely some realizations that that little kid has. There's one here about kiots. I'm gonna find it that I that I like, um good bit. And really it just comes back to morals and ethics around shooting something that maybe not killing it. This is from Brock stupor you're stubborn, however you say your name Brock. I have an ethnic s morals question in regards on in coyotes. I guess the issue I run into when predator hunting is the fact that the animal is wasted. I've shot coyotes over the years, and I hate the feeling wasting the animal and leaving it lay. At the same time, kyote hunting is a great excuse for me to get in the woods and permission to hunt kayots. It's easy to get. Is this something that I'll need to get over and just look at the positives of having the opportunity to hunt. I suppose I could take the hides from the coyotes like I do when I get a bobcat, But even then I don't know if the hides, if I'd have the time to tan the hides I get already from other critters. I also look at it from a deer preservation standpoint too, but I don't know if I can get on board with that whole thing. I feel like people disrespect the kaya because it's a predator and does what it needs to survive. Maybe I'm ever thinking this, but I'd love to hear your viewpoint on this topic. Thanks Rock. Shooting kayats leaving them lay? Is that ethical and moral? Man, that's a real personal ethics moral question for me. It just doesn't feel right. I can agree with that, and I actually don't like. I don't think that it's ethically you're wrong, I really don't, but something inside of me just it just doesn't feel right. Well, we've all met the hunter, slash ranchers, lest landowner that says, every time you see a guy out or bobcat or any type of predator, you whack it. If it's legal, you whack it. If it's illegal, show shoot, shouble and shut up. I mean, I've been in that situation a lot with badgers, with anything really, even in Montana here some years ago, with wolves. Yeah, and that's all it really takes for me to be uh, you know, spun over too, like it maybe not not feeling bad about it at all. Is if all of a sudden, you know, at my place we had in two years, it turns into we have like a little hobby farm and there's I don't know, fifty chickens and there's you know, constant issues with chios for foxes, like they're going to be getting killed may or may not be using the fur. I think mostly I probably would um you it at least think about it. You would be shoot him and toss him in a ditch. But again, the it's like a kyote for someone can write in and tell us like what to do with them. I have some from friends that have just given me coyotes that they trapped. They were tanned, and it's a great decoration. They can't in the wintertime. They can't be really nice, But you're not gonna wear them like that. You might line like your hood on your jacket. I've actually been thinking about it because no, there it's like a very technically proven like way to keep like sort of like a buffer of air in front of your face and keep the wind off your face. But yeah, what else are you gonna do with it? I mean, you might be able to trim out a couple of a jacket for your gal. You do look up, I'm looking at us for kyotes, the shooting. I'm looking up the shooting kyotes make more coyotes. I don't know that's a shitty Google term, but I've heard from a lot of biologists, not a lot, a several biologists that shooting kyotes creates more coyotes. Anyway, Well, you can listen to Dan Flores talk about you know, he studied up real good on coyotes when you wrote Coyote America. Yeah, that's a great day to talk about this with. I mean, the one takeaway from that, the whole conversation in that book is that we have tried our asses off for over a hundred years two extirpate that species, tried very hard X dynamite and poison and aerial gunning, and the coyote is too bad ass for us. Yeah, um has been. It wasn't too long ago that they were only west of the Mississippi and now, I mean, just take an animal that lives in swamps, it lives in uh prairies, it lives in forests, it lives in anywhere. It's like water man. It just hits it and just goes around it. Yeah, so here's a there's an article from Outdoor Life by a feller name what's your name name? Guy? Author man Dave Dave Kramer, and this is from teen but he basically just goes through and it is talking about how it's situational. In some situations it's great and others not so much. And so that's one thing to think about when you're shooting coyotes, like, are you just like, you know, I think from what this guy saying, he likes to go have the hunting opportunity, it's it's it's fun. There's the fun thing. Again, you're out at a time when you like not a lot of other UM seasons aren't open. So what you would consider like an off season of hunting, um, you can always fall back on predator control. But uh, all that all that being said, that's kind of complicated and situational. What isn't situational is that you're shooting an animal and leaving it lay and you're really not intending to use any part of it, So like, you know, erase all that other stuff like that. Yeah, it's fun and you're shooting an animal leaving it lay for me, I am. I wasn't always with you, but I am at this point in my life like I am not. I do not desire to go shoot things and throw them in ditches. I just don't And and then I don't. I don't, Like I said, I don't think it's wrong for someone to do without a reason. Right, if if some ranger came to fun, Yeah, if some ranger came to me and said, hey, look, I know you've been mule deer hunting on my ranch. You know, um, if you don't mind as a you know, as a favor to me for mulely hunting on my ranch, do you mind coming up in February and shooting a half dozen cos you're spending a week and shooting as many cocks as you can get because I've got a glut of coyotes and they're bothering my livestock and I need your help with that. I'd be like, yeah, sure, no problem, because then I'm like I have a reason to do it. But if I'm sitting around in the cash so you don't feel like the blood's on your hands, not as much, but there still as a reason, like I still am. But if you don't necessarily agree with his reasoning, just sort of like making excuses. You're right, I would have to agree with his reasoning first, so like, yeah, I mean I think reasoning is having a reason to do what you're doing. Is is at the crux of all these questions, almost every one of these questions is what is the reason you're doing what you're doing? So coyotes is no different. It's like, what's the reason you're doing it? Because you're sitting around on Saturday and there's no football on, and you're really you're used to going out and chasing deer and there really the only way to get outside and kill stuff is to go kill kyotes. Listen, man, Like that's a dangerous road to go on because then you're just you need an excuse to kill stuff and it ends up being it. Yeah, you're not gonna eat it. I was tried one. Wasn't that good? What's the what's the flavor profile? I would say, you know, it was very like stinky duck really yeah, like diver duck ish that kind of like a livery profile. No, that's never good. And he gave me with a livery profile like go high iron never the only thing you should taste like livers, liver, and even liver hopefully doesn't taste like liver. Um, so what do you like? What do you you know? What's the Are you standing on that ground or do you look down on other people that do that? That might say, like again, because I don't like it's legal, and I don't think that like again, personally, I don't think my my ethics are necessarily against um well, my personal I think is our against killing stuff on that and letting it lay. Yeah, that's where I draw. That's like my first thought is if I'm killing it and letting it lay, there better be a damn good reason to do it. There better be a real sound reason to do it, and and I'll have to have thought it through pretty good. I used to not be like that. He's be like, oh, there's one shoot at bam dead cool, I'm saving them, saving the deer. Oh, not really knowing if That's what I'm doing or not. So I think a lot of hunters get in that situation where up saving the deer, shot that guy out. Really, are you maybe you want to look into that before you kill something, Maybe look into one really is going on? Okay, But here's here's where it gets. I'm gonna keep going on this one because it's, uh, we talked about this last week a little bit because the Kyle sort of dictates that we have this conversation about whether it's okay throw it in the ditch after you kill it. As you go smaller and smaller down the chain of living things, it doesn't matter if you're a vegan. Um, I don't know how to make like the like the picturesque Buddha, like just like the happiest person that's most in tune with the world. Very few people are going to try to save a hundred ants that are invading their kitchen and trying to get them to like walk out of their house instead of just stomping on all of them, are spraying with bleach or however they decide to dispose of them. So like, why why do we have these like this sort of like cut off line somewhere yep, where it's like there's some anthropomorphism in there, right, I mean, like it has a face in it, and it has personality characteristics of humans. That's all sn our ethics are, Like, yeah, I think I don't know if this directly gives to what you're talking about. But I think hunters specifically, I love it and fucking and are unabashed in a lot of ways when the gloves come off, like when it's like Farrell Hawks, shoot him, shoot him, don't worry about it. Yeah, we have to kill him. And then like this is a big thing that I have, Like this is ethically and morally. Where I kind of draw some lines is like two hunters, like I hunt for conservation and hunt for the meat, and I don't, you know, I don't enjoy the killing. But then when we take the gloves off, we're like, kill that thing. We need them all dead. And then we're in helicopters mowing shipped down. We're whooping in a holler, and we're throwing grenades at him. We're shooting him with you know, semi automatic a R S with I R lasers at night with night vision and having fun doing it and stacking them up like, oh look at this, the gloves are off. Now I've killed these in maths and I'm having a great time to do it. But I feel like I've never done that particular thing. But one thing that I did once that we only did once, and I don't know if we ever talked about it, the opportunity still was there because there was a pond that was I don't know, a hundred yards or so from the dirt road that ran up to the hunting cabin when the guests would stay, and it was twenty yards from our guide cabin. And one day we sat there and shot I don't know, five hundred rounds down of this pond at muskrats something around. No intention of going to pick up the muskrats now at the time when we're having fun, Yes, but we did it. And it was like, even though we never talked about it, we in the opportunity was always there. It was never something that we were like, let's go do that again, right, So you feel you had to do it once to learn. I almost feel like it's the same thing like you're kind of describing with the gloves off. There's I don't think there's very few people that, like time and time again, are just gonna get their jollies from just mowing down and killing and killing and killing and killing and just continue to want more and more and more of it. It's true. I get with you on that, and you're saying, like people are generally good. That's what you're saying. You're saying that people will generally realize the error of their ways a few dozen hogs into them. And I don't know if it's yeah, if it's the air, but I just don't think that, like most people actually like it's not that good that you want to repeat it. Yeah. I mean there was a study back. I don't know if it was in the seventies, but there's a study. Have to look it up now. There's a study about like the stages of hunting, stages of being a hunter. I feel like it's a little bit outdated now because it was I think it was in the seventies. But the first one was like fun shooting or something like I love to shoot. That was like the first stage of hunting. And I think that's again, it's not it's when you're that's like a natural that ends up being a natural progression for people. I think he's like, I love adult onset hunters probably don't go through it as much, but when you're a twelve year old boy, dude, it's fisceral for you, like like if it's alive, it should die. Yeah, not every little boy with a BB gun. Shooting squirrels and birds in the head is a serial killer or some kind of you know, unethical monster. So there's like there is some natural progression of that. No, So you're right. I think you're right in the fact that if you truly do enjoy the gloves off thing in perpetuity, you got a problem. Man, Like you're not. You might you might have to get the checked out. But yeah, I won't name the people that were in the helicopter, but I know that you were in the helicopter. Well, I've been in a lot of situations where I've been in I've done helicopters once, but I've done two or three from times where it was like night hunting for hogs and it was like I our lasers full on helmets with would drop down night vision and you know, we're we're shooting M four's suppressed and we're rolling around like the fields of Texas like a little you know, commando team, shooting as many hogs as we can get. And if we just so happened to shoot one square in the ass, not a big deal, because it's just a hawk. It's an invasive species, so killing them all is what we're after. And that's the freaking slippery slope. Man, It's a slippery slope. Yeah. And the one that the what I don't like about that is that killing them all and extra painting them is actually not what any one of those people wants, because then they couldn't continue that fun activity of pretending like your g I t exactly exactly. And like that's where I've always been like you you say, like, so that's where the bullshit comes in this you came back onto. Steve has talked about Australia a lot around like, yeah, just recently with what's going on in New Zealand, right, Yeah, they're they're starting to have they're starting to have to come to terms with, hey, we got a bunch these non natives and we love to hunt them, and and and our justification for hunting is around the fact that we are eliminating non native animals. But then when the government says, hey, we'll step in and take care of that for you. Let us just we'll get the helicopters, just do it for you. No words, You're you're having to walk a lot. They're like, no, no, no, don't do it, Like what what isn't that what you were doing, yeah, which I think is fine. They're just uh, it's just causing him to rethink thinking, and they're just gonna have to say, you know what, I was wrong. There are all these all these other reasons that make this activity great for me. Yeah, and so I think, yeah, and I well, not even I was wrong in that case, you'd be like, I was wrong with the way I presented my reasoning. I was wrong. I wanted to present it, but I mean just that I reasoned that I reasoned it well, I was. I would like there to be a balance, right, not to kill them all, you know, so like when I shoot a thing, I'm not I'm not gonna go out there and be like, here, I am shooting this fox just because it's non native. That's not the way, like, hey, I'm shooting this predator because I believe that I believe and I've done some research to the place that I'm at that says the shooting this fox is beneficial rather than like it's not native, Bam dead, No excuse, Because if if the government starts applying your own rationale to to wildlife, then they're all gonna die. So you better come up with a freaking better one, just in case of New Zealand, because then they'll just kill them all. There's nothing you can do. So we started out at Coyotes and got to New Zealand. That was that's that's impressive. But I I that's right, That's where I'm at. The older I get, the more I don't. I really want to have thought out the killing of a thing that's just me. You're there too, for sure? All right? Uh Marshal Sea door right son on on an only going debate among my circle of hunting friends, what situation ranks higher on the hunting purity scale regarding archer and hunting Before we get into his situations here, do you believe that, like the hunting purity scale has anything to do with ethics? No? Why not? Because the hunting purity scale, man, it's just it's a totally made up thing that again is going to change on every person's experiences and sounds like sex and right, But a scale requires like other people to participate in the same scale, unless you're just gonna walk around saying, on my own hunt, purity scale rates like this, like my feeling of purity on this hunt, my personal feelings that it's eight what is your personal feeling. Oh, it's a four because you know the based on where you grew up. You grew up in Texas, sitting over feeder is is fine. It could be eight or nine if you grew up in um Montana sitting over to feeders all one every time. Yes, So then what's the purpose of having the scale for your own for your own personal satisfaction that you like? For me, this is a ten so you can communicate to other hunters where your value systems lie. That's why I believe purity scales. So I'm like, you know what, here's where my value systems are ten here and you're like, no, I'm a five. So just doing that as opposed to just explaining your personal morals and ethics around that's why easier to put a number on it. Yeahnning than no. But I think that's like for me, public land is more pure, so for me, I don't really care. But it's a good way to judge because everything. Everybody certainly has different perspectives as what we've said with ethics too, So that's right. But that's right, But I can get with you on it it being a useless U I think it's fun you're driving around in a truck. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not saying like I would if if the law came to me and they're like, hey listen, but I'm not gonna really like apply it to some sort of like my morals. Well we'll go through this anyway. Now we've totally defunct this question. But because it's fun. Um, So what ranks higher on the purity scale regarding archery? Antalope hunting? Shooting an antelope from a blind on a water hole you scouted and put up weeks prior to hunting season, or shooting an antelope while driving through public land and rolling out of a moving car to quickly run off the road draw unreleased before the antelope runs referred to by my friends has drive by that's Marshall set or if he's got to. He seemed like two very specific things that probably happened during a specific hunt. So man one purity on those? I like how one. I like how one is on public land. It sounds like they're both on public land, but he only mentions driving through public land, So well, let's just assume they're both. Yeah, because somehow public land always makes it seem more pure it's like, oh, you on tough for competition usually usually animals gotta have a little more edge on them. Um. But man, like, I really appreciate what it takes to do that scouting, to set that blind, to sit it with the right wind. Um. You know, they're the work goes in before time, beforehand obviously, because once you're in it in that dark house, animal comes in. They really shouldn't know you're there when you get the shot. And then but then to have like the athletic prowess and uh spatial awareness and the you know, agility that would take to roll out of a car and as you're rolling in the ditch knock an arrow and then come up on a wary animal, like an animal that doesn't duck the string and run the creation, roll up, maintain your composure through your draw like some character. Now yeah, that's uh yeah, So I don't know. I can't say if one of those more pure than the other. Yeah. I think he might be looking for us to say that somehow using that vehicle and rolling out of it is just sort of maybe drop it down, because I would say, oh, if he's like, oh, well, what about unrolling the window and sticking your rifle out and shooting it. Well, then it's like, sure, the other one is way more pure. Well, road hunting is always road hunting, if that's what that is, is always like this topic of in my my own circles and just my own head a topic of debate, because there's there's places in the world where just like hunting over bait is way better. Up in Quebec, where there's no other way to see the animals because the forest is so thick. There's some ranches that are so flat that you can't find a tip to go glass room, you know, and Wyoming, this is the case a lot of times. It's so the way to cover country and find the animals, it's getting a car and drive around. And these animals are used to trucks, so the mostly just stand there and watch you. And, Um, if while you're driving around looking for one you'd like to shoot, one happens to be right by the road, what are you gonna do to drive drive a mile away and then walk back to it, like you know, so for me sometimes like okay, in in certain situations, driving around looking for animals to shoot is I mean, it's not the worst thing in the world. No. But again, I think it's one of those things that most people that are truly really hunters. I'm speaking from my own experience because in Nebraska what I've done a fair amount of deer hunting, it is legal to shoot out of the car once you're off I think it's off the county road. You have to be all yeah, yeah, you have to be on a fourth service road. In Montana that same you have to be here, it's the county road. You have to be certain. Yeah. But I don't think you can shoot out of the vehicle. No, you can't shootut of it. No, No, but in Nebraska you can. Don't get out of the car just leaning over the rear view mirror caught loose while you're listening to Jimmie Hendrix. Um, we had a season where the right group of people were there that were all like, very excited about this opportunity to do that. We did a bunch of it. You could kill a bunch of deer. I think we had twenty some deer hanging in the tree by the end of the week. Um. Subsequent years we just never did that again. Everybody was like, you know what, that was a thing that we did, and now we're going to choose to to a spot park and go walk and hunt, because that's how we prefer to do. I'm d I would never put myself in the situation to go drive around like. That's not what I would choose to do. I would always put myself a situation where I knew, you know, walking was the way, like and and you know ship when we were in Mexico last year, you could just as easily killed a nice cues buck for getting in the getting in the old side by side riding around, I think just as easily as glass and went up. I cover more country, you'll run into one eventually. You should try that this year back down next year we're back down there. I want to see how it goes. I'll let you know my purity scale. Three days they do it well, I'll be chasing them all over the all over the branch. It's kind of funny, but but they're they're such a it's always you bump into him here and there and doing that. Um so you gotta have your rifle ready though, get ready. But yeah, and I think I would always like having done those things before, saying with high fence, having done them just like your question around, like shooting pratt coyotes or whacking a bunch of hogs. Having done them, I now know for my own personal purity score that ain't the way. So I'm never gonna put myself a situation where you know, I'm hunting a ranch where driving around is the only way to get it done. And it might be like the purity scale of a the some of of a week of hunting, where you have you've been pounding it for five days all over the mountains, no luck. On the sixth day, you're driving home from the morning hunt, back to the lodge or camp or wherever, and all of a sudden there's ex animal like just rolling over the ridge. Dude, I'm bailing out. I'm gonna go chase after it, or bailing out and laying down and get my right up for a shot. The only moose I ever shot in my life, I was with Joe Rogan Nu shot a moose that we were driving over to park and get wall cut blocks, and two giant bulls across the road. I jumped out, jump across the bar dish ran up into the field and shot one. And I was super happy about that, Like I'm not I don't feel like that was a bad experience. We hunted hard and that's what happened to be where the one was. But yeah, putting yourself in a situation, why I'm hunting this ranch in New Mexico where you know, you really just have to drive around. That's really the only way to get a look at you know, what's there, or sit a water hole or whatever. Um if I had to pick, I'd sit a water hole, and so purity, I gave the water all the wind over jumping out of any vehicle and doing anything, no matter how rambo you look. Because I I wonder I have to ask Marshall, did somebody actually fucking do that? I know guys that roll that program with mule Deer in Kansas. Yeah, my dad just my dad was just out in Montana here and and uh and broadest where it's flat, and then you came back from a guided hunt. He was like, you wouldn't have liked that. I was like, well, you mean I wouldn't like that. He's like, yeah, it was drive around the trucks spotting deer. You see, when you want to get out and go after it, if you don't get to go back to the truck drive around some more and I was like, yeah, you're right. I would not have liked that. But for him, you know, he enjoyed himself. So I'm not gonna but I don't judge you for that. He's sixty some years old. It signed his whole life. That's you know, that's the way that that went with the challenge. He felt challenge. It was cold that that they had to look over a lot of country. They did, you know, a lot of had a lot of fun and it was more about the people and the experience and seeing the country. And he brought home like he was just about out of meat, brought home some meat. He was super happy with him. So purity scaled ten. That's great for me, Like, I'm happy that he's happy. So when it comes down to that, like you got people in your clothes hunting circles that are doing stuff like that, fucking just be supportive if they're not being fully morally assholes or you know, be supportive. I would say, at the end of the day, if they're not doing something you feel like you have to question, Yeah, and again a lot of times for yeah, a lot of times your morals if you're having questions about your personal morals and ethics around hunting. If you follow the rags, you're probably going to be falling in a pretty safe place and most people will be like, say, you're responsible. Okay. Last one, what's your take on shooting does with fawn slash deer of that year? I've always been of the opinion that once the spots are gone, they are able to survive on their own. That doesn't sound right, meaning they are not relying on mother's milk. So if I choose to shoot the mother, I don't have to worry about the fawns survival. And he goes over some some This is Corey Dukehardt, by the way, and he goes over some situational stuff that um that he's done. But he hunts a lot for meat and it's had some situations where he's wanted to shoot a nice, big fat dough for meat and she's had some young uns with her, and he's had to make some tough decisions ethical decisions around that. Uh, what do you think Corey Ducard should do? Yanni, No problem, No problem, am no ethical conundrum for me. Where you draw the line is it spots? Is it one year? Two years? I think that the biologists have thought that through that set up your hunting seasons, and that if there was a risk of you know, hurting the population, the population dynamics, herd health, whatever it might be because you're shooting cows or does too close to breeding seat or too close to gestation or whatever like, Yeah, then they wouldn't have that. I agree with that. I think that's a pretty simple one and that's the right answer. I killed the big fat dough in Michigan last week that had two dough two phones with her, and uh, I felt a little bad about it. I did those fawns like they have to do hung around. I was just gonna ask you that because I've had that. Yeah, once be kind of disappeared, like once all the deer blew out from the shot. But then they're just happened to be these two funds that kept kind of circling through, you know. Um, But yeah, I'm not gonna anthropomorphis. It's like that's like the Kingdom and they're like they're going to figure out their own thing within hours and be good for him. Probably not UM. When I was young, young, maybe fifteen sixteen, I shot though one like open day rival season with a family friend, and I remember walking up on the stone and being super excited and then looking across and seeing a couple of fawns, you know, fifty yards away that I hadn't seen, and being like just sad, really sad because I'm gutting this deer. At these deer circling me in fifty yards, you know, M doing that thing where they're like breaking their neck to look and see what you're doing, whether that it's their mom or not, you know, type of thing. So they're not actually thinking that no, no, no, but they're like, what happened there? I think they're more just confused about what the hell just happened than they are. But there's no way to note that, right, I don't know, And so I remember being like, very briefly like I'm not doing this again, but then pretty quickly realizing that's kind of the risk you take when you're doing it. Like you said, I mean, it's kind of what you're doing every time you go out and kill something. So if you're shooting does, you're kind of doing it every time. A lot of people have an ethical conundrum with UH, like, is there a certain age that you should let an animal get to before you kill it. Yeah, I mean we definitely with with livestock, with factory farming, have got rid of that. You ever you have veal or you know, anything of that nature. We've definitely not say, hey, listen, the cow has to be grass fed, free range and three years old. We don't. We don't do that. We don't do that at all. In fact, we do the opposite, you know, like hey, as fast as fat as possible. And so if you're just talking to meat wise, then you you kind there's a parallel there to me, and I'm not you know, nobody's shooting does for the you know, trophies. Most people shooting does are doing it for the meat. Cows. Saying, any any female critter you shoot, you're mostly time shooting it for the meat, I would say, And I can't think of an issue what any other way you would be doing it? Um and as you're purely doing population control, which you should still eat to meet anyway. So so I think, yeah, I mean, shoot the dough and eat the meat. And if you're doing that, you're fine. Yep, don't worry about take a mom out of the herd. Don't worry about it. Well, it's still snowing out here in bows Man. Yeah. I think we're supposed to get a few inches out of it. Mostly we're gonna get some cold. I think it's going single digit tonight, That's what they say. I like it for now. Come see me in February and I'll let you know. Is it just it's not December yet? Um? But it's it's been nice. It's been like the perfect call. I think. I'm I'm like, you know, come too early. Now we're not sitting here going oh man, I hope it starts snowing like we're getting some snow. It's good being a new Bosman Bozeman Indian bows Man in person, I feel like some of the winter stuff maybe a little bit overstated. But I mean it gets cold here, and but I think it's such a it's such a great place to live. People have them very much to complain about, so they just roll it into like what's the one bad thing that gets really cold? But I mean it's back where I'm from in Maryland, it's no you know, six eight in is yesterday and there was forty degrees here and really nice. So I mean it's just it's situational people like talk about the weather. That's rights your Thanksgiving look like there, John, Uh, you know, we've got some friends in town. Were not doing any family, not doing any traveling friends in town. We're gonna do a friends giving, they like to call it. And uh, you know, I have a very loud room full of kids and uh, otherwise I'm gonna do some hunting around Thanksgiving. Very nice, very nice to walk the mountains beautiful. I'll be back in Maryland with my family. Yeah, we're last last week there. I don't have a bunch of family in town. Do that. Uh, maybe get out hunted day. I doubt it, but maybe. And then uh, we're coming back to Bozeman for good. I'm closing our house in permanent residents. Nice. We're excited. Hopefully we solved all your ethical you'll have another ethical quandary about coyotes or shooting does or anything like that, because Janni has you asked the eagle, and the Eagle answered. Thanks for having me on, Ben, It's fun. Thanks for coming on, Yannie. That's it. That's all. This episode of the Hunting Collective is finished. Thank you to all of you for sending in your questions. Your ethical quandries, and thanks to Janni Pitelis for helping me do my best to answer those to give our perspectives. Well, what's up with all these difficult situations out in the woods. We've all been there, so again, great podcast, thanks for tuning in? And uh, next week? What's up next week? Who we got next week? Oh ship, we got Charles Post. Charles Post coming up next week. Now, Charles has already been on twice, but I wanted to catch up with Charles and in that one about grizzly bears and wildfires and all kinds of great topics. So hopefully you'll listen next week for that one another episode of Hunting Collective. Until then, go to the Mediator dot com. You'll find everything Hunting Collective there. The Hunting Collective dot com is kind of dormant as we move the business over to Meetia and Incorporated and have everything living on the Mediator dot com. So if you want to get everything in your inbox every single week, do me a favor and go over there and sign up for the newsletter, because the newsletter just comes right to your inbox and you click on that sucker and it'll be everything you want to know. From Steve Ronella, from me from April Bokey from our Kenyon, from Pat Durkin, from just a bunch of people, a bunch of really smart people. So get over there, sign up for that and let me know that you did. Hopefully you enjoy it. Until next time, thanks for joining us on the Hunting Collective. By one