00:00:12 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an old role. The engineers say, what's up Phil? Hello, this is filthy Phil. I'm on it today, buddy. I'm fired up to yerba mates this morning. Then yeah, one and a half feeling feeling introduced? Is this is something you think? People make fun of me that I drink this? What's this ship called urba mate? Mate? I mean I can only speak for people I know, and the answer is yes, that's all we talk about. Yes, we just make fun of you exactly. All right, Well, we're gonna moving on from that because I am a very fragile, very fragile ego. Um, we got a lot, a lot of things to cover on the show today. I'm excited about all the emails that we got from you. I'm excited about some of the conversations we're gonna have. I will admit to today's podcast part of today's podcast being a bit self indulgent, overtly political. There's a lot some stuff I want to say, uh, some stuff I've been inspired to say by one of my favorite writers. So we're gonna we're gonna go over that here with our buddy Miles and ult the director of Fishing one of the hosts event podcast, but also one of my favorite people to to politely argue about politics with, respectfully argue about politics with. So something we're gonna cover this is coming out. I think this is coming out what Tuesday? So this will be what right after inauguration one? Inauguration? What's the now it'll be it'll be the day before, the day before, So this that it'll be given there'll be some heightened sense politically, um something I think that hopefully you guys will like to hear before we get to that. Uh one myself. I bet Eric's got his own reasoning, He said, why emergent. First, it's technically correct. Emergent is defined is coming into view or notice, issuing rising from um a surrounding medium, coming into existence, rising casually or unexpectedly. As we just said, those of us who chose to come to hunting emerged from an ordinary life into a life of hunting. Second, and more importantly, it sounds badass. When you hear something like emergent technology, you think, damn, that's gonna be some cool ship coming down the pipeline. It's the same for us emergent hunters. He said, I've been working on an article in this topic, but I'll share a few thoughts about emergent hunters and why they're badasses. We aren't part of the tradition or patrilineal descent. We aren't conscripts to the cause. Were volunteers. We chose hunting. While most hunters learned through us Moses as kids. We had to piece together all the myriad of skills it takes to hunt as adults. And when you think about it, the amount of knowledge and skills you need to be competent wherein to hunt is pretty damn overwhelming. He said he started hunting around eight years ago. He's from Los Angeles. I grew up as an eagle scout and then got into hunting and is now cranking uh and now calls himself a hunter, not an emergent hunter. So maybe there's some sort of graduation process we can put it in UM. He also says, PS just want to give a shout out to fill to give UM some confidence. I to love video games and Star Wars and stuff, and I have a wife and two young kids, but I am also a hunter. He can do it too. Plus hopefully he'll get to kill a turkey, which I still haven't done. So there you go. Phil thoughts Emergent Hunting. That was a pretty good I mean, I couldn't I couldn't have put it better myself in terms of MS hunting. That was a very That was an eloquent statement there. Um yeah, I like it a lot, Ben i'd I'd say the one thing that kind of that made me chuckle was that he was like, you're emerging from your previous life as if somehow you're being reborn, or you like you're or like you're you're you're you're waking up for the first time. You're a caterpillar, red pill, Bro, you're a caterpillar. You're emerging into a butterfly as a hunter. I like that he takes it that seriously. Man. I like that he's he's thinking of this stuff is really a life changing deal, which I do believe it is. So, um, I'm gonna go with it, man, I'm gonna go with emergent Hunters. We're gonna we're gonna penalize anyone that says adult onset hunters. We will cancel you if you bring that to this table. Um canceled, canceled, Yeah, cancel culture. Um so we're gonna go with it. So thanks, Thanks Eric, I really appreciate that, man. And if you write that article us, no, we may share it with the folks. He's also losing California is a board member of the California Chapter Back on Shouters and Anglers. So he's not just writing about it and talking about he's doing something about it, which uh, I can respect all the way around. Um, you know, to to this idea of new hunters, Uh, this being the year of the new Hunter, you know, I liked giving everyone that an idea of something they can step into that's a little bit more important than just something you do on the weekends. So do you feel feel that, Phil, you feel like it's going to change your life? Uh? To be honest, no, I mean I think I think the experience of going out and and taking a life and and you know, harvesting, harvesting the meat and consuming it. I mean, that's that in and of itself. And I think, yeah, I mean that's like a that's a life event, that's a life ten of experience. I don't see it changing the way I live day to day or stuff I think about. I mean, I think it will be like an occasional weekend activity. That's how I'm I'm seeing it somewhere out there, air calls turning over in his truck driving to work over. Uh So you know, Eric said to all your emerging hunters out there, Phil included, you are badasses and be proud of it. So so be proud of it. Don't be ashamed. Not that you would either way. Okay, So the next email, Yeah, you know I would. I would again say I'm always I want to do this one when I can. The the th C inbox after almost two and a half years of doing this is still hopping. So I'm assuming that means you guys are still loving what you hear. If you are, give us a review, give us the five stars, right, a right review of the show, do all that stuff. Um, but you know what gives me the most satisfaction is reading these emails. And now this one comes in from Zach and man, it's a long one, but it's important, I think. And Phil, can you put on your doctor Phil hat this one. We gotta help this man solve a problem. Yep, it's on there, it is. How does it like? Wow, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So Zach says, I have been listening to TC religiously since the summer, but this is my first time write again. I started to listen to this podcast as an intern for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Park while driving for hours on end mapping fences, and I was drawn into the philosophical conversations about the outdoors in our food system. This podcast is truly one for people who think about hunting deeper than it's face value, which should include all hunters, anglers, hunters, bikers, and people who eat anyway. Sorry for the long email, but I had it right in about a situation I'm facing. For some background on my plea for advice, I'm a junior studying Wildlife Ecollege and management at Oklahoma State University. I consider myself a hunter, though I can count on one hand the amount of times that I have gone out on just a day hunt this year. What can I say? Video games are easy? Why is this happening? I don't think. I don't think you understand how video game culture and games in general, have you know, with what's the word proliferated? Yeah, apparently don't. I thought we were in a safe space. I thought we were in the trust tree where we all go outside and we don't worry about video games. But apparently I'm wrong. There are dozens of us there. There are dozens of cult members. I consider myself fairly savvy, says Zach on the outdoors, and try to keep up to date on conversations and kind servation issues throughout my state in the United States. It is my dream to one day work as a wildlife biologist or a game ward. I am in need of a bit of a sage wisdom about a situation surrounding my current roommate. I live in a single wide trailer on a thirty acre piece of ground with a great fishing and a duck pond attached outside of my college town. This land and trailer is owned by one of my roommates family members. My roommate on the outside is a die hard redneck hunter. The majority of his wardrobes camouflage. The house is decorated with Turkey fans and painted European mounts, and his ammunition is strown about the house to underscore his lack of firearms knowledge competence in safety. Hunting appears to be his life, as he historically skipped some of our shared classes because he was out hunting or drinking the night before. Ron Bam, friend of the media, Ron Bam, friend of the mediater podcast, and uh badass fellow. He says on the Hunting Dog podcast, it has a term for this type of hunter that really describes my roommate, Joe twelve Gage s seaking the Hunting Dogs. He has a one year old black lab that he quote unquote trains as a retriever. The irony in my roommate is that he and I share a major passion wildlife and hunting. Why is this ironic, Well, my roommate does a lot of hunting. During dof season September, he hunted every afternoon of the first couple of weeks of this season. He put me on my first ever ducks this year on the duck Opener. He helped his younger brother harvests first year back in November, and has absolutely provided access to his family's ground and a family's friends land to help some of his friends limit out on ducks and deer. This in and of itself is absolutely awesome and taken alone, is nothing but an advancement of the hunting community. And this one indeed be the case if he didn't ignore hunting regulations and our values with reckless abandoned. He does not treat at life with the respect they are due. When he shoots an animal, he will wait for hours or even days to process it. This is not dry aging either. He leaves their carcasons out in the rain, exposed and on refrigerated, often on at it. More times than not, he includes a drink or two or seven before he starts a hunt, often on the drive over. He has set and hunted over bait for migratory birds several times. He has exceeded aggregate possession limits on waterfowl, ignored means of take hunted outside of shooting light hunting from a moving boat, and his most recent offense has been shooting a limit of ducks and leaving it on my porch for three days so far in fifty degree weather. I have done my part to advise him and the people that he hunts with that they are not in full compliance with the law. I have also excused myself from hunts that may be illegal or unsafe. A mega nerd move, for sure, but they're right move. Nonetheless, Here in lies my moral dilemma and plea for advice I do not know what to do. He cannot continue operating like this. He is liable to get himself or others hurt. There are several times where I have told him to watch where his muzzle is pointing as he flagged myself and others in our hunting party. He's also going to catch charges at some point. Getting away with these relatively small violations now is only going to embolden him to start blatantly poaching in the future. I know I cannot enforce my morality of my roommate, but it's hunting style during and especially after the shot go against my true values. Any advice on the situation would be greatly appreciate it. I did not know whether I should contact the game warden, give him a come to Jesus meeting, or do nothing. I'm very hesitant to take any action, but I know something should be done. Okay, Phil that yikes, yikes, yacks, yis. I'll let you go first, there, Philip. Dr Phil, Wow, it's so kind of you. Give him somebody. I mean, I this is just tough for me because I don't really know that the culture. I've never been in it from an outsider's perspective, though. I mean, like I've said this before, these are the kind of people and stories that non hunters here, and it just sets it gives you all a bad name like like this, that's the stuff that like, it discuss you. It turns you away from hunting and hunters. It it sets stereotypes up. Um, it's not good. It's I mean, it's like not good for conservation, but it's also not good for the way hunters look in the public eye. Uh. That that being said, like, I mean, what like if it's really easy for me to sit behind this mic and be like, oh, you should call a game warden and turn them in. Uh, but I mean I don't know, Ben, is that something you would do? Like I don't. I don't think sitting him down and having an intervention is going to help anything. Yeah. Man, this is why I think this is tough. And again, I I there's so much nuance in this, and you got I know everybody likes when I use that term now, but there's so much nuance in this, And I would just just say this, they're assholes and every line of work, and they're assholes in every pursuit. Their asshole golfers that cheat um, their asshole hunters that poach and break the law. Um. The difference in golf is you're probably not hurting anybody. You might be stealing somebody's money, um, in a gameling situation, but you're probably not hurting anybody by you know, doing a Donald Trump picking your ball up and throwing it toward the green. Nobody's looking, So you're not hurting anybody. But in this case, you are. You're doing damage to to everyone around you in in and of the fact that you're um breaking the law. But also, you know, as Zack said, they're disrespecting what we all do and what we've collectively determined to be a valuable part of our lives. And then also you have the part for wildlife management conservation that gets big into that. But here's the other deal, Phil, Let's just be honest for a minute. Social pressures, most people. Illegality is based on for a lot of really good folks that get into really dumb situations, it's based on social pressures. Would you agree with that? I mean, you're you're you're right, It doesn't. The thing is, like, I totally get being in those social pressure situations when you're younger, like when you're in high school or in college. Your hell, I mean, I'll I'll even give you like mid to late twenties, but I mean like it's a point you realize what kind of a person you are and what you want to be and you just stop hanging out with those people. Uh. That's yeah, dude, That's where I'm at. Man. So it's like like, I mean, sorry, man, but if this guy is like still your friend and you're still hanging out with and like I know you said that you've expolitely excused yourself from the huntset might become illegal. But it's just like I I it's it's it's tough, man. Like you get to an age year old enough and you just gotta make big boy decisions. And he's he's cut these people out of your life. Yeah, that's yea. As always, Phil brings the heat um And you're right, man, You're absolutely right. You know you gotta make Zac in this case has to make a decision um to put himself in a situation where he's never going to be influenced in that way. Uh. And that's I've had I I will personally, I'm not gonna name names or get into this, But I've had situations within the hunting industry where I felt like that's something I'm not gonna do again, um and and excused myself from that situation and in some cases cut that person out of my life where I felt like it wasn't good it um. And so that's what you gotta do, I think, UM, often people would respect you more if you do that. You know people would would find a way too. You know, have some self awareness. But if you just don't think your roommate's gonna do that, you may not just waste your time and just remove yourself from the situation UM and move on. But again, if you're a party to something illegal, you also have the you know, you also probably have the responsibility to call it in UM if it's continuing, and you may save someone's life. I mean we had we talked about last week at death in the in the duck line with remind of vented tozie I I feel we could probably just dropped out of what you said last time. Man, remove yourself from the damn situation and UM, continue to be a positive influence. It sounds like you are, so we'll move on from that. But you know, as we go into the year of the New Hunter here, and we talk about emergent hunters as we go forward. This is something that everybody may have to deal with, and it's certainly easier to deal with if you are a new hunter. If you're an emergent hunter, you're an adult. You know, you can make those decisions, as Phil just said, And it's a lot different if you're a ten year old boy and some some of this stuff is going on and this is the culture of your family, you're the culture you're growing up and man, you just go along um and almost every situation. So this is something that I think emergent hunters are going to deal with more and are more equipped to deal with obviously, um and something that as you as folks crack into the hunting world, if they see that, they're going to have to deal with it. Um. And so it's good. I appreciate you're putting it out there, Zack, and so we can talk about it a little bit. Anything else, Phil, you want to drop us just drop a knowledge bomb at the end of this, really walk away, because because stands of this ship. Uh Nope, no, I feel like that's that's the that's the most authentic Costanza moment is blowing it at the end. Yeah no, I'm nope, perfect, all right, all right, Now we're gonna get into what we want to talk about today and and there's a whole lot that goes into what we're talking about with Miles and all day. But first I want to read an email from Russell Edwards, Victoria, Australia, one of our many Asse's and New Zealanders that listen to this podcast, shout out that you guys, we love you. He guys always are are seemed to be the most opinionated and the most well educated on wildlife issues. Maybe because it's where you live, or maybe it's because you're all badasses. I'm not sure, but thanks for listening. Uh. Russell said, where I come from and Victoria, Australia, we literally have protesters on the marshes during duck season. He said, it's fucked. I don't and by the way, you know on the on the term fuck phil. Uh. Have you watched the Netflix documentary The History of Curse Words? I haven't know. How is it? It's fantastic. Nicholas Cage is the host of it. It features many uh my favorite comedians, it's just fantastic. They just I just watched the one last night on the term fuck, the history of the term fuck and the relevancy of the term fuck, and it only emboldened me more to include it in this podcast wherever, not wherever I can, but I need to probably get be a little bit more tactile in the way that I use the term. But it the celebration of the word just embolded me a little bit more so anybody that ever wrote in and said, hey, stop cussing, it's not looking good for you. Truck to restruct all right, Russell said. He said, I don't think it's a case of a slippery slope fallacy, and I don't think there's some quote unquote middle ground that is occupied by less controversial honey methods. I think these hard nosed campaigners look for what is the most alien seeming practice and they target that one in the hope of recruiting the most number of people, even KFC munchers, to their cause. It is a form of culturalszenophobia. It may even be the case there's no grand conspiracy and may be simple a process of blind selection. People get upset about all kinds of things, but the ones who most successfully provoke a xenophobic reaction are the ones who build a movement. I fully stand with our buddy Clay Nucom and his guard the gate mentality. In fact, my concern was one of the factors leading me to take up duck hunting after many years of deer hunting. Duck hunting is the pin up anti campaign here, mainly because they are the only non fish native game species, because apparently fish don't have feelings and foreign animals should be exterminated, although preferably by professionals who don't enjoy it. But yes, we have hound hunting for deer here, and those guys will absolutely be next in the firing line. Ever since your interview with fellow Victorian Paul the sheer Ben, I've been struggling to be patient with these people. They are, by and large, so fucking dumb Russell Edwards, So this leads me into lots of things. Certainly leads me into our a little bit of our conversation with Miles today. But um Man, I don't know, Oh, we're We're definitely gonna take a different tech than Russell. And in this case, I don't think all these people are dumb misguided surely. Um. You know, activism can can become a lot of things. Um, So I'm sad to see that there are people protesting your duck hunt in the marshes before it win your head. Now, I've never experienced that, but you know, if I was bear hunting New Jersey, I probably would. So we've seen that in this country as well. But part of what we're talking about today is this idea of hate based media. And I and as I said earlier, Phil, this is maybe a little bit self indulged for me. There's a lot of things we want to talk about this year with new hunting and and trying to bring people along, but I think this, this, this applies to that topic and and the this is the idea that are the the national media, most types of media, social media. A lot of the communication of this country is based on hatred and division, uh and is based on a lot of what Russell just mentioned here in terms of cultural xenophobia. He mentions people get upset about all kinds of things he wrote in there, but the ones who most successfully provoke a reaction are the ones who build a movement. We've talked about that before on this show. In terms of making fun of the term cult. We've talked about that in terms of approaching vegans and anti hunters with an open mind and open arms at some level, but then objectively taking in their information and trying to suss out what's really going on. We've talked about that. Maybe that's the value proposition of this show as we've as we've gone along, it's I think it's something we certainly need to dig into. Miles and I were able to to unearth some examples. We felt like we're very relevant in in this in our hunting and fishing culture, and I think when you hear from some of the listeners this show, some of the New Hunters people are still struggling with the ways to approach um the cultural division even within our own our own pursuits so important conversation. We're gonna have it right now with Miles Nold, Tay Myles Nte. What's up man, Happy to be here, brother, happy to be here, as always, Happy to have you as always. Um, we need to hear a little bit about the podcast, how it's going bent. We haven't really talked about it that much on this show. I know we did when it it launched, and we've been advertising in and pushing it. How is media just first ever fishing only podcast. I mean, I'm a pretty biased source. Uh, I think I think it's great. Um, but I will I think I can be an honest critic of my own work. I think it took us a couple of months to really find our stride with the show, and I think I think the first few months were good, but I think what we're doing now is much better, and we just got a better rhythm and we're flowing in. Like we've said before, we're trying to give a good balance of valid information, interesting stories, and humor. And one thing that we definitely don't do is take ourselves too seriously because there's way too much of that going on, uh, in outdoor media in general and fishing media specifically, So we don't we don't do that. Yeah, you guys, I mean fishing is fun on your show. It's not always fun other places. Sometimes it's boring. And now I'm not looking at you, Bill Dance God, No Bills never boring. Bill is the man. But yeah, it's you know, when you take a bit of a chance to put out something like you guys have, and if you haven't heard it, Go listen to it. You'll know what You'll immediately know what I mean by this. You know, take a little bit of chance to do something different and follow your own you know, sensibilities and personalities of you and Joe Surmalley. I mean, you know, it's it might it might be a home run right off the bat, or it might take some time. So I'm glad that the old meat eaters are given you time talking too much. You want to talk about man me too, And I think, uh, I think one of the pieces that show that that folks. You know, in addition to some of the stupid humor that we do, which is there, uh, there are some significant bits to chew on as well. We do a fish news every week where we really dig into anything fish related in the news and try and chop it up and and have some analysis of it which will tie into to what we're about to talk about. And uh, and you know, it's is a mixture of high low We have like really dumb poop jokes and then we have book reviews of like elevated Hemmingway literature. Like we we try and hit all the angles, sounds familiar. We have you know, like when I first started this show, I didn't I didn't think it through that thoroughly. Um, to be honest, I was just copying Steve and Allen, Joe Rogan, you know, And I feel like there was a lot of people in our space that just that's what podcasts were, because that's what had vaulted to the kind of the top of the heap at that time. Um, you know, just casual or at least pointed conversations that that could go any direction. They're very organic in nature, and that's what I think all of us kind of started with. And what's cool about about Bent and some of the other shows that we're working on a meat Eater is that we're you know, we're starting to turn from that a bit now that now that that's saturated our space. Yeah, I mean there there's just not that much room for Steven Ronella's and Joe Rogan's in the world. And there are very many of them. So if you're trying to beat those guys at their game, you're gonna lose. You gotta do your own thing, man, Yeah, for sure. And like I said, I mean, it's it's there's a space podcast that are maturing into a big damn business now, you know, all these these big carriers are jumping in and turning it into something that it wasn't even five years ago. UM. And so who knows where the next five years will go. But any we're not here to talk about all that. Listen to Ben, if you had any dumbasses, get on it, get on it right now now. Like when I think you were the first person, Well let me start this way. It's probably better start this way. I didn't you know, as we talked about last week in the show, we want to focus a lot on new hunters and and teaching people and learning from folks that are new to our pursuits this year. Um. And we talked a little bit about, you know, kind of the tenor of the moment, you know, some what was going on in the country last week, but we didn't touch on it directly. UM. And I think Miles, I think you were the first person to that I talked to this about because we were on the phone about something work related and it was like wait, wait, wait, wait, turn on the TV. Uh, there's there is there is an event going on, something is happening. And and then we both you know, proceeded to watch in horror, uh, and what unfolded right and I'm you know, to break down that what actually happened there is not for a podcast like this, but what we are, what we you and I do for a living, and what we're very invested in is is the role of media in all of this and the role of people who have opinions and are people that are journalists and report the news and how those cross sections affect us all. And I know, and the reason I wanted to have you on just kind of talk about this because I know you're invested in, you know, the role of politics in you know, what we do and enthusiast spaces like hunting and fishing, but also how we think about critical issues and how we're able to objectively seek truth and how we're able to reason things out in a way that's healthy for all of us, you know. And you and I don't always agree on everything, but we're able to have conversations that are respectful, um and seem to go somewhere, you know, look and learn from each other. I think that's you know, that's part of the reason why I was I was excited to have this conversation with you because you know, just just as buddies. We talk about things all the time, and the tone and tenor of those conversations is so much different than the way I see debate or disagreement reflected back almost anywhere in a public or media based space. Right Like you and I disagree on a lot of things politically, but through through talking that stuff out, we're never we're never attacking one another, we're never trying to undermine each other in a in a personal way. And I usually end up learning something from that or coming to at least be able to recognize a different perspective that I hadn't seen before, whether I end up agreeing with it or not. And it's it's hard to try to overstate the value of that, right, it really is. It really is like a foundational respect for the for someone else's humanity, you know. And they're right and privilege to have to develop opinions in the way that they do from their own life experiences and perspectives. You know. We we we're at this position right now where a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people are shutting themselves off from you know, from differing perspectives. And and look, I know this sounds like overblown and maybe a little megalomaniacal, but like the part of the reason why I wanted to get into and why I believe in outdoor media is I feel like it has the possibility to be one of those few areas where people who disagree about just on just about everything else can find some common ground. Like we care about outdoor spaces, we care about access to healthy lands and waters, we care about our ability to maintain the cultures that are so important to us. Like let's set everything else aside. Let's let's just say we we hold those few things together. And that's that's certainly idealistic, it's not always true, but it's one of the things that I love or want to love about the media that we get to create is that I can bring in and speak to people with whom I made disagree completely politically, but at least we got these spaces so we can still talk to one another. Yeah, And that's one of the first questions. And and I want to get into kind of what really spurred this on. It was a Matt Taiebi article. But we'll quote Matt a little bit here, but that that is a good point, you know, starting from and I often we often do this on the show, like we even with animal rights activists and even with vegans and people that were supposed to not agree with we, we do start from a similar value proposition with wildlife, like I appreciate wildlife, I want them around. Someone who's an animal rights activists definitely, definitely and very tangibly says that they appreciate wildlife and one them around. We just have different tactics to get to that end result in management and and the way that we wrap our heads around, you know, essentially cohabitation. So even in those conversations, I realized a shared set of values, and in the broader political conversation, and certainly in the way that the media is set up now, people are losing that starting point. They're losing this idea that we are there. Way, there's so much we agree on. Let's start from there and then we can work to where you know, respectfully we disagree on something that that that respectfully word is a hard one right now, But yeah, nope, I agree. So I sent you a link to this article and and I and to be quite honest with everyone listening, I don't know how to address something like the Capitol riots. I don't even really know what to call them. And because there's so many weighted words and so much semantics at play and how we present these and we'll discuss that here in a minute. But I don't even I don't know how how to address that. It's so waited for me. I haven't had enough time to process it. I can only say that it was a disgusting act that I hope we never see again in American history. I hope it is. It is something that we all learned from and we don't repeat. Um. But again, um, what we're about to talk about it, and in terms of our news media has me thinking that we might be doomed to repeat it again in some form in a very short short time from right now. And so mine as well talk about it, might as well crack open some of the how the media plays a role in this, because they play, in my opinion, quite a huge role. So there's a and and let's be fair, we can't say they when we talk about the media, because even if we want to wall ourselves off into outdoor media, we're still media man. So we have to recognize that we we have some responsibility to own for sure. For sure. Um yeah, and that that's the fact that anyone who's listening to us talking means that we have a chance to contribute to what's wrong or or be agent for change at some level. Um, if you go, you know, there's a website called sub stack dot com that hosts a lot of independent journalists and a lot of independent voices, and one of those voices is Matt Taieb. Um you have a lot of experience with Taieb. I don't. Actually I will. I will admit that this this article you sent me was my foray into his writing and his thinking. And uh, I am, I'm I'm intrigued. I'm gonna check out more. He He is one of my favorites. Um. He you know, the way he breaks down the way he breaks down the media number one is huge. But just the way he understands culture and in his bend toward investigative journalism and objectivity is something that obviously is rare uh in this space. And so you know, if if you haven't read Matt Sabby, read him. I'm not saying you have to be as in love with him as I am, but certainly check him out and make that choice. Sit around. But he wrote an article called we Need a New Media System, Um, and this the header here is if you sell culture war all day, don't be surprised by the real world consequences. We're gonna present, We're gonna reverse engineering this article. We'll present the ending paradox and kind of work our way through what's going on. But something I've been been calling to tie you, it's I'll just call it. We'll call it for this for this example, that Tye be adox and what he says at the end of this article entitled we need a New Media has what we've been watching for four years and in this in this case he's talking about the Trump presidency and what we saw explode last week. And in that case, the capital riots is a paradox, a political and informational system that profits from division and conflict and uses a factory style process to stimulate it. But Professor's shock and horror when real conflict happens, it's time to admit this is a failed system. You can't sell hatred and seriously expect it to end. Um, what's your action to that? I mean, so my my reaction to that is that it's it's spot on the I think that the key words in that our profit and sell. Yeah, as we as we dig into this conversation, those are the two two concepts I want to I want to keep to the four because I think they're very important as we sort of untangle all of this. Yeah, And I think a key to the you know, the way that why we're talking about this kind of like the way that I want to look at it is what is the media's role overall? But then what's what's our role in the media for for niche spaces like hunting and fishing. Um, we have definitely And what Taibi is saying here in many ways is that the media has taken polarization and sold it in polar Polarization is often coupled with the flaming of hatred, you know, flaming the fanning the flames of hatred, is what I'm trying to say, Um, And and that has affected how we reason and our collective ability to seek truth and find objective truth. And we're stuck with a very toxic way of looking at the world. And that's a narrative base way of thinking and a ship ton of confer confirmation bias. Um. Not only in politics, but in our own lives. I mean, I I totally agree with you there, I got I gotta say to you things. One I I'm skeptical of the way the concept of getting away from narrative, right, because I think no matter even in the most quote unquote objective sense, the way that we organize information of of like what causes what is a narrative? Yeah, it's the wrong term. Like, I don't know that we get away from narrative. It's just that we need to to think about narrative and less polarizing ways. Sure, Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, Well, it's just kind of like the weaponizing of narrative. You know, it would be it would be the issue. And and an example of that, obviously is if if you're told something, and in the case of the Capital riots, if you're told you know, there's a fraudent election and one side is stealing this election from another, You're gonna be looking around and trying to confirm that bias. You're gonna be trying to you know, if you if you're told you that you believe in this so fervently, your your way of reasoning is going to be based on that confirmation. Bias that you now have that one thing is evil and one thing is good. And and often say that you you know, to create a movement, you do not need a god, but you do need a devil. And and certainly we are creating devils out of each other. And you know, in in the grand scheme of our national conversation, and that I mean that that really that that was well put. And I think that, look, it's kind of basic human psychology right there. There are things that work more quickly in our brains than others. And by things I mean, I mean narrative triggers, So fear and other emotional responses immediately elicit a response like or a change in the way we think about something, whereas something that's much more methodical and based on you have to ration it out. That takes time, and it takes effort. And if you're trying to sell people a media product, the fastest way to get them to consume it and really identify it and go all in on it is to pull those emotional strings and pull those levers and fears a real strong one. Yeah, and this I mean We're gonna get to some other examples, but this is something in my work and conservation what I do sitting on the board for backlud raters and anglers, and even even when I was employed at the n r A National Rifle Association, you could see, you know, I think one is a more stark example than the other, but you can see this type of like you could see the pool of this of creating you know what we'll call the slippery slope here, which is creating a battle for something. Public lands are under attack, your gun rights are under attack. There's more fervent support for things that are under attack, things that may go away. And so are we creating these false narratives in our own spaces about what happened might happen to our guns, what might happen to our public land, and use in those same mechanisms to incite support for the things that we care about. And it means a lot to me to be able to say I I do believe in gun rights. I do believe in protecting the environment and access to our public lands. But I'm not willing to travel down the path of inciting or at least invoking some fear and the people that have joined my organization just to get the end result like that is it becomes a toxic environment if he if it goes too far, And that's kind of where that slippery slope comes in. It does. And man, here's here's where I want to get into to the to B B article you brought up, because he, you know, ultimately he goes through he lays an elegant, elegant description of the problem. I give him a ton of credit for the way that it's worded and the way it's put together. I think he's spot on in describing the problem. Um, you know, he he And then but then he gets to the end where he tries to to give a prescriptive solution. And this is where it is problematic for me, because you know, he says, media companies need to get out of the audience stroking business and we need a new media channel, it press version of the third party, where those financial pressures to maintain audience are absent. Right, And that's great, but how do we do that right? And and this is the that's where I feel like it's a little bit of a cop out because who's gonna who's gonna who's gonna build that? And how is that going to be incentivized? And this is gonna get a little heady, but I think it's important to recognize that, like the granularity of information that he's talking about, like that that ties into the new landscape of targeted marketing. Right Like we're getting customized news the same way that we're getting customized banner ads every time we open the Internet. It's all in the same algorithms. And and since that marketing that I'm talking about right there is is what pays for the news, I don't I don't get how there's a solution other than some kind of a third party, like which would have to be the government stepping in and creating this new news channel, at which point we just have state sponsored news. And that's not a solution either. So that's where I run into a wall on this thing, man, because I totally agree with him, and we live in a free market system, and that free market extends to our media, and right now the money is in that micro targeting and by separating people whose tina little silos and feeding them what they want to see. So how do we get out of the attention economy? That's the real question. I mean, the core of this is how do we get out of the attention economy in the way that it's the attention economy isn't the problem. The way we weaponize the attention economy is the problem. Right, Like, we're gonna have to continue, you know, from the from the printing press on the intention economy grew, it's only become more sophisticated, right in the way that it's been been targeted. But Taibi says, um, there's a couple of other things that he says that will help us track this. He says, uh. Specifically speaking speaking about news organizations mainstream, he says, media firms work backwards. They first ask how does our debt target demographic want to understand what's just unfolded. Then they pick the words in the fact acts they want to emphasize. Um, this is my favorite. This is really one of my favorite analogies, he says. News companies now clean world events like whalers, using every part of the animal, funneling different facts to different consumers based upon calculations about what will bring the biggest engagement kick the microt caravan. Fox slices off comments from a Homeland Security official describing most of the border crosses as single adults coming for economic reasons. The New York Times counters by running a story about how the caravan was deployed as a political issue by the Trump White House, staring at poor results in mid term elections. Certainly, um million more examples. That's just the one he chose in that particular paragraph, but there's a million more examples. But I think going returning to kind of the tactic here is to look at a is not to look at an event and its totality and try to dissect it in a logical way. It is to use the narrative that you've built and then take parts of what's happened, you know, in this case immigration, and apply it to the narrative that you've already established with your audience, and the audience comes right along. But I mean, I think, I think you're absolutely right. But I also think that the reality is that that's what feeds people like we have now unfortunately proven that what gets people riled up and gets them to really have allegiance to a media brand and that allegiance then translates into sales and effective marketing is that that picking and that choosing and that feeding of what feels comfortable audiences. And this this goes for all of us. We don't like to encounter what's uncomfortable. That's that's We're not gonna keep coming back to a source that makes us feel uncomfortable. If we can go somewhere else that makes us feel warm and fuzzy and comfortable, that's exactly. Yeah. When I made a post earlier this year, before I got off Instagram altogether, that was making a joke about a dilapidated falling over ability and where I was hunting in eastern Montana with a Trump sign on. I thought, that's hilarious. I'm like, oh, how analogous is this? Like, that's it's just hilario is to me, the satire, It's like thick this is, you know. And so I post this and in two things happened that really lighted me up. One people that I actually respected, who are fans of this show, who right into our TC at the met eat or inbox all the time we're in the comment threat saying they would never listen to me again, right because because they believe one thing or another. I thought, wow, you know that is we're in such a heightened state right now, and this is right before the election, so it's just it's it's I would say, it's a different time, but maybe not because people are storming the capital the see the power in our in our country. But at the time, what struck me as one how the polarization in the comments section fueled the Instagram algorithm. I bet more people saw that post because of the engagement quote unquote than anything I posted ever about anything, because of the way it made people feel and the fact that it fired them up, and the fact that they were oralized on that position. So it was like an illustration of social media algorithms of what they do right, how they how they kind of capitalize on that. And the other thing I told people in that of all the people who said, I'm I'm un following you, I don't want to see this, I said, if if you are made uncomfortable to your your the point you just made, if you are made uncomfortable by by points of view that are not your own, please leave. Now see yourself out like this is this space, this podcast, and the other things that we mentioned here in the people that we promote, hopefully are not going to be engaging in this kind of bubble think, this kind of creation of ideological corners. Um it's just boring to me, boring. It's I mean, I would say it goes beyond boring to be like, you know, massively problematic. But you're absolutely right. And the idea, the ideal. One of the things I like about what you do and I really respect about your show is that is your idea that like, look, we're we're primarily this this podcast that covers topics interesting to hunters and people who enjoy wild spaces. Uh, And therefore that gives me the opportunity to kind of chop up all these other things because I'm going to get people who disagree on those other things into the same space at the same time. Right. So theoretically that should be an opportunity to be like, look, you gotta you have to see all these all these different ideas. You have to be confronted with them. And if the reaction is wait, I think you might be on the other side. So I'm out. I don't know where we go from there. Yeah, there's nowhere to go from there because you're now to the point where you can't you have such and this this goes back to Taibi's point, where we've hate incorporated and we've we've so commoditized hate. That that's what people feel when they when they see ideas, even ideas, even it's the suggestion of idea that's the antithesis of what they've come to believe for the narrative that they've painted for themselves. It's not that when when when that narrative comes about that you say, mmmm, well I don't agree with that. Let me break down why that person thinks that I respect them, I trust that that they're not a bad person. Let me figure out what how they got to where they are, and and and along the way, hope to become a better person myself, and to be educated by how they got to being an anti gunner or an anti hunter, or an animal rights activist or whatever they are. And then when I go back to defend the thing I'm really passionate about, I now have more ammo in the gun I am because I have looked at the dogma in my own space, Because I've examined my own preconceived notion of what's true, I can now objectively say I'm doing better, like I have a more like, a healthier, a healthier view of why someone might not want to do what I do or might think what I do is awful. Yeah, I mean, look, I think I think a particular and I think it's helpful for us to work off of like specific in person all examples with this, right, because as you start to spread it out globally, it gets really muddy and and then you're just painting people with a really broad brush, which is part of the reason why we're here. So like, let's let's look at a specific example. I remember once ago you put something up, uh somewhere. It might have even been that same post where you you said, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna vote for Trump. That's what what I think I'm gonna do. And I picked up the phone and I called you. Do you remember this because because personally, and I will admit this, that was not a that that was not a choice that I was comfortable making. That you weren't the only one that got got a phone call. I'm sure you did, man, And and I I what I I didn't call you, if you if you remember, I didn't call you to be like what the funk? Man? That was not the way that that conversation went. What I called you, and I think what I remember saying was help me understand what what What's what's your logic here? Because I really were expect the way you think. And I know we don't agree on a lot of things, but but this is one that I don't understand. Please help me understand it. Yeah. The other thing that that that bothered me about that and this this happens across the board, is that it's it's somehow takes people see it as courage. I even I know it to be courage because you you do have something on the line when you say I'm going to vote for X. In the public sphere, because cancel culture being what it is, audience support being what being needed to do what we do UM, some level of reputation, and for honesty and respect and integrity being needed to do what we do. UM. All of that is at risk if you say who you voted for, or you say what your religious beliefs are, or if you or if you say what your sexual orientation is, or if you say, UM, any of the really important foundational things about you. UM, you're at risk of alienating some percentage of your audience because of hate incorporated, because of people are being trained to hate the other. UM. But in the case of that maybe get the strength way far from from the point where where so I actually, I actually don't think it is. Let me, let me try and tie it together for you, because as people who work in media, we have that pressure. And part of the way that we survive, the way that we get to keep our jobs is by having enough people like us, right, and if if we step outside of the space of what we think our audience wants to hear and announce something that could be challenging or problematic, we were literally risking our livelihoods. So I will agree that that was a brave move that you pulled there um too, that I after and after no influence by by you other than just talking it through with me, I voted for Biden. Like I got to the I mean and and people were people in my family were questioning, like, how could you be so wishy washy, And I said, it's a hard decision for me. It was a hard decision for me because I care about so many things passionately. And I got to the voting booth very nervously, stood there, looked around, I went for the you know, put the pen towards the Trump bubble and took my pen back and then I thought, hmm, I can't vote for I can't vote for this guy. Just can't do it. And then I bubbled in. I thought about writing in someone I really wanted to be present. I thought, now that's a waste, and so I circled Biden, like I don't you know? And then I held my breath, thinking did I make the wrong choice? Um? And so the fact that I was struggling with that and very and I would very honestly tell anyone I struggled with it. And I'm not a Zealott for Trump or a Zellott for Biden, um, somebody who was confused and but also knew this was a very important vote and also knew this was something that I had to think about and do right. And and I have kids, and I thought about them, and I thought, what am I gonna prioritize for my children in the society I want them to step into. And it was tough, man, it was really tough, um, and so, and I don't know in their polarized times that there's room for it to be tough, like let's just let's just throw throw this out this way, and and and to contextualize what we're talking about to bring it back to where we started. If you and I happened to be working in a different media, let's let's let's use Fox News for example, and maybe maybe you had a similar difficulty in in in the decision that you were faced with. If you actually had to recognize that this is not a simple decision, wow, and you made that public, you would lose your job. I think that's right. New York Times be the same way, exactly used that exactly. Yeah. What but if it were the other way around the and you you you wrote for or you worked at MSNBC, you'd be you'd be painted into the same corner. Yeah, yeah, it's it is. I mean there's a line in in this in terms of Trump in the Tybee article everyone monetized Trump and when he when he said that, I I just I was like, that's one of the more poignant lines that it is. I can think of everyone monetized Trump, they monetized hatred of Trump or love of Trump, but every you know, both sides dove in head first two this polarizing character because it fit into this hate incorporated way of making money. You know, either hate him or hate him or love him as long as you do it intensely, we can make money off you. You know, as long as you feel strongly about it, we're good to go. You'll keep watching. Um. And that's dangerous, man. It's like it's just a dangerous premise all the way around for all of us. Um. Again, Like, I think I could not agree with that what that article's premise was more and I think I think he said it more eloquently than that I've read it elsewhere. Um, I'm just stuck on within the constraints of how our consumerist media works. Like, I don't know how you break that. Yeah, I don't know how to break it either. I mean it really, you know, his suggestion hints at something. But again, I don't want to be trite and bringing up Joe Rogan. But here's a guy who, uh really doesn't do anything unless he wants to do it. He's not owned by any media company, he's he doesn't have any agenda that I know of knowing him and haven't been on that show a couple of times. He doesn't have any agenda other his own curiosity and his own need to seek out things that he is interested in and are relevant to him and staying true to that has allowed him to grow that that show into some astronomical m heights in terms of how many people listen. So that's that's one example. He is one example I think of of someone who's been kind of outside the fray in terms of big media and the corporate interests and some of the political interests and things like that. But he's still not I mean, he's still in it at some level. I mean, he's not immune to it. But maybe you know, maybe a shining light of an individual who kept it small, kept it uh real and original and tried to present information on his own bend. But certainly not a journalist, not an expert. And that's that's the problem there, right, Like, as someone who who does have kind of a journalistic background, that that's where I run into a problem with that because he's not trying to report any news, and and the other thing like it's tough to draw too many conclusions from a sample size of one. Yes, yeah, that would be the other place that I stumble with that one. Those are the but and he is the exception, right, And you I've seen a lot of people and heard a lot of people on his show, Marvel at his ability to stay out of the corporate cycle, to stay out of the investment cycle, or to you know, not get bought up by UM something that would influence the content, and people marvel at that because that's the way it works, UM. And to your point, I don't know how you change that UM going forward. But Taibi goes on to to quote, uh, Mitch McConnell. He said, uh, he says, in reference to what we've talked about earlier, to repeat this info sifting process a few billions times. And this is how we became, as none other than Mitch McConnell put it last week, a country that quote is drifting apart into two separate tribes, with a separate set of facts and separate realities, with nothing in common except our hostility towards each other and mistrust for the few national institutions that we all still share. UM. That's pretty well well put, Mitch. Um. The last part is what got me mistrust of the few institutions that we still share, UM, and into two reverse course to your point earlier, Miles, when we get into kind of an enthusiast space, like we're in everybody listens podcasts, we're assuming everyone listens podcast shares a value system around hunting, and even more shares like a specific value system that we discussed here quite often, right, a value system that got him in the door and is keeping them around. Um, there's probably a plenty of people that listen to this just to hate it. But I would hope that the balk of people are are learning together and sharing sharing the ideas that are presented on a show like this. But but back to the mistrust of the few national institutions. Mitch McConnell's right, you know, he's he's dead on And I don't usually like what Mitch McConnell has to say, but in this case, yeah, I made his his the statement there is accurate. I'll just I'm pretty over representative from both sides. I'm not pinning this to one side of the other, ratcheting up the the division against the other side and then turning around and screaming like this is exactly why we're also so against each other. Like, I don't think one day you can be fueling those fires and the next day being like, hold on, guys, we can't keep doing this. Like that's a good point, though, I listened to guys like Ben Shapiro and then like political talking heads, and this is what they do though they've become it's become such us versus them mentality that that we could play the paradox game. We could present all paradox like everything has become a paradox and also a parody of itself, you know, by like you are presenting a narrative based way of looking at the world, like you've you've decided on we are you know, the conservative republic republican ideals or in the case the liberal progressive ideals are the way forward. They're evil, we're good. And so every show is is just affirming that thing. Look at all the evil things that they did, Look at all the things they did wrong. Even if you're aware of some hypocrisy, you know that that you've also done this. And again we may start playing in a paradox game where we're just like watch the news and write down all all the things because it's but you know, the false equivalences and the way that people rationalize things now is and is in and us versus them paradox And if you do it's not bad. If they do what it is, and then they're just round and round and round we go propaganda one on one man, and that's what it is. And to to to bring this to to our own personal space, right because I'm sure there are a lot of people out there right now are like, I don't really give a ship what these guys think about national politics. There I go to them for hunting and fishing, and valid totally get it. But the point I think I want to make is that we're we're we're borrowing some of these same techniques that we see in national media and we're applying them very successfully in our niche media. Um. I mean I see it. I see it in phishing media all the time. And and there are these relatively popular phishing meme accounts, and the way that they get big is by pitting different you know, regional subsets or stylistic subsets of anglers against one another into these comment feuds. And it just kind of it just makes me sad, to be perfectly honest, And and I get it because their engagement on those posts is through the roof, right like if they and and I'll use an example, right, someone the one one of the ones that people love to do is to get fire up the debate about whether or not Great Lakes steel head or actually steel head, and for context, steelhead or a Pacific Northwest fish they like go into the ocean, but they put steelhead in the Great Lakes, and now they migrate in and out of the out of the Great Lakes and the trips. And for some reason that this has created a fight, a semantic fight, like those aren't real steel head, they've never been to the ocean. No, screw you up at the left coasters and your real steel head, Like it's so dumb. But if you do a post that gets people on that topic, your comet section explodes, and and and your popularity increases, your visibility increases. They're leveraging that same tactic on a much smaller scale within our industry all the time, and and it just makes me sad. Yeah, and why wouldn't they draw from that playbook? Yeah, that is the playbook. That's what's been incentivized on social media, news media. You know, it's the painting of that broad brush. I mean, I could go all day in hunting. Um, I saw I had people. I'm off Instagram totally, So don't come try to say some message about the show or whatever. I'll get back on. I'm just taking a break. I'll get back on UM, but I'm taking a break because it's just I don't like it. It's not fun for me. It's a terrible place. It's stupid, it's and it's also just it's not It's just a stupid place where people are manufacturing all types of false narratives and all types of false realities for everyone to either make fun of or celebrate. So but there, when you go there, you go anywhere UM at a larger scale like that, where conversation is happening. You know, hunters that hunt with a crossbow right versus vertical bow hunters, um, not only do not only do we have you know a bit of a debate about the efficacy and and and the wildlife management implications of a cross bow, both good and bad. And also you know new hunters coming in and being nobody's across bow. We don't just do that. What do we do? We start to characterize, oh and stereotype, Oh, the guy with the crossbow, drinks mountain dew and eats Case's pizza, the guy with a vertical bow. Whereas Sitka and his elitist we're doing the same, college educated high school educated, rural urban discourse. We're pairing that discourse. All we're doing is applying it to the differences in our space. That's all we're doing. That's what you just describe with fishing exactly. And and and I could just like you know, we could. We could point to a ton of different ones in hunting. We can point to a ton of different ones and fishing. I think the point that we're trying to make is like we this this set of plays, this way of of having your media system function works right now, but it has really terrible implications. And so look, I will I feel I'm a little concerned that I'm trying to paint myself as as holier than though, and it's like, oh, I'm above that. I don't really think about it that way, but I really do try and avoid getting in using leveraging that particular tactic in the media that I create, because I think it's it's it's lazy, and I think it's destructive. So well, but there's also shades of gray, you know, when it comes to like sometimes comedy, sometimes stereotypes make comedy work, Like oh, yeah, you know, we have you have segments on your show we do stuff all the time here where where we're clearly performing satire, where we're clearly just having fun with the way with the cultural differences from place to place, or we're from pursuit to pursuit or whatever. Um And and that's certainly is a part of who we are too. So there's shades of gray. And I'm not saying that. I look back on a lot of things I've done, and I'm certainly ten years when I if I ever come back and listen to some of the episodes of my podcast, I go, whoa the hell are you talking about? Man? I hope I do, because I hope I'm better then now that I am now, and then I am as I'm speaking to you right now. But um, I'm not saying I'm better than anybody. I'm saying these these are things that bother me and I hate it, and I want to surround myself with people that, you know, start at respect, and start at respecting the differences between us and go from there. Um. And when social media have a you know, really incentivizes that division, what are you gonna do? I mean, people are trained to get more engagement, to get more likes, to get more followers. That's the arcade game of social media. That's what it is. It is it is more points for whatever. You get more, Yeah, get more points, and then you get community status based on the number of points that you received, and then you become some character of yourself because there's no way to speak truth because all of it is every word typed into Instagram and the history of Instagram is meant to get attention in some way. Um. You're talking about like you know, meme accounts or troll accounts on social media, they're doing the same thing. They're just they're just angling it towards towards hate or towards you know, as we say, trolling or attacking people, um or citing differences. They're doing the same thing there. It's just the antithesis of of of you know, somebody like David Goggins or somebody that's trying to inspire people, um and put that value system out there for everybody. Like we're so cynical that anything that's not trying to be that like postmodern is is corny. Right, If you're trying to inspire people, or you're trying to be celebratory, or you're trying to be positive, you're you're so corny, nobody's gonna listen to you, Like you might as well just go sit in the corner with Grandpa already, because like no one's no one, no one's to hear that ship. And well, yeah, even in this piece, Taiebi goes on to say, like he when he first got in the business, he thought that, you know, by the book, journalists were boring people that were searching for objectivity and never having a hard and faster in and we're boring. And I think he's turned that on now he sees the danger in um the absence of that. But we were talking about this before. I I do think there again, there are a lot of broader examples of hunting and fishing that go to this, you know that that we could talk about. We're not gonna examine them, you know fully, and we didn't do a book report on these things. But I was writing down and shared with you a couple of things that I think show this UM. Number one, I mean, I'll just make a list of things. The green decoy push, like the website green about Green decoy, is the push to label anyone with environmentalist tendencies, including backhuntry, hunters, anglers, myself and others a green decoy. Um. Then you have folks like Ted Nugent and Donald Trump Jr. And the National Rifle Association. Um. Those folks, I think are examples of the cultural divide and folks that are fanning the flames of that cultural divide by playing some of the games that there's some of the psychological games that we have talked about earlier, and the taiebe brings up. Um. All of those are examples, I think, and we and and I think even people hearing me bring those things up an examples. They're probably ears perked up based on what they think about these these very polarizing individuals or organizations. UM. And that's okay, but we're not gonna shy away from talking about them. But one of the things that that came to mind, and I don't I would admit to not having checked in on this issue and maybe a year it's been a while since it's been relevant, but was the National Monument production that played out in December with Donald Trump. Um. It was one of the first. It was it was one of the most um striking moments where I saw these two different narratives being played out within my own community, or at least in in reference to our community. Do you remember having a similar I mean, you've been around longer than me, But do you feel like this is one of the more striking times? Is that overplaying it? I mean it, I think you you chose an excellent crystallization for for the outdoor community being presented with with a set effects that was interpreted in utterly opposite ways. Yes, and so I did pull up two articles. One of them is on Patagonis websites. It's still there. Um the title, well the title is is irrelevant, but they're big, bold headlines, and this was on their website at the time, says you were lied to and the president stole your land. So let's just say for a minute that you don't know what the national monument issue is or what happened in seen with the reduction of two specific national monuments. Let's say you don't know anything about let's say the first time you're hearing about it. Okay, so patagon you said said at that time, you were lied to and the president stole your land. And they, by the way, it also used that as an ad, just a straight ad that went out all over the place. It was huge. That was a campaign and a campaign of activism on behalf of Paedagonia. No Patagonians in the outdoor space. They're not in the hunting your fishing space very very much. They dabble, they play in the fly fishing space. Yeah, yes, okay that yeah, it makes sense. But they're they're around, right, So they're not like a core hunting and fishing brand, but they're around and we all know that they lean left. Uh vanard van sard Is is who he is. Um. The n ARRAY Institute for Legislative Action said a headline about the same set of facts. N RA applauds Trump administration for restoring access to Utah public land. So if this isn't an example of a very important topic, an essential topic for land designation and an access and habitat in this country tree taking this example. Now, look, this is three years ago, so maybe this is not a rampid thing in our space on a broad level, but this certainly is uh a part of it, you know. I mean I think I think it still is. But I think this is a good one to use because we can skin it really well with those headlines. And so let's just play like the the fact checker Arbiters of truth moment. Here, I will I will first admit my own bias and say that I was not a fan of shrinking those monuments first, but I will also say that if I had to rank the truth the truthiness of those two headlines, I think the n r A is comes closer like it. It hits a little higher on the truthiness scale for me than than than the Patagonia one. And that doesn't I don't care if you were opposed to that particular shrinking of monuments. Lying about it to piss people off doesn't help anyone's cause. Yes, Um, to read a little bit from I'll read it. I'll read you a little bit from the n r A. I mean, first the Patagonia piece, and then the n r A piece, and and and again. Let's just start by saying, you know what's happening here? Is there being there there's one the painting of motivation, purity and motivation on both sides, Um, and again we're gonna say Trump is pure. The NRA is gonna says Trump's motivations are purity is doing it for you, And PATAGONA is gonna say Trump is evil. He's doing it to hurt you. He's lying to you, so, Patagonia said. In December of the president illegally reduced Bears the Years and Grand Staircases Galante National Minings by nearly two million acres, despite overwhelming support from the gjority of Americans nearly three million, of whom spoke up during a public comment period in favor of protecting our national monuments. The President invoked terms like heritage, respect, glorious natural wonder, and protection to substance sub substantiate the announcement. What wasn't explained at the time, and only came to light with a release of thousands of pages of documents from a Freedom of Information Act requests, was that the decision was nothing more than a political favor. Despite numerous promises by a handful of politicians that the former monuments contain no sufficient energy resources, it turns out that they do. The redrawing of boundaries was deliberate and directly influenced by an industry that spends billions of dollars lobbying the government to get what it wants, and they went on to give examples of coal, oil and gas, uranium and other resources that that sit in a place that was once a national monument and is no longer right. So to be clear, what Patagony is saying is that the president lied to you about his intentions so that he could do favors for his buddies in the extractive resources industry. I guess we will say in this case that square up miles. Yeah. Yeah, And if that had been their banner than it would have scored higher on the truthiness uh scale. But the stealing of public lands is just purely incorrect, yes for the redesignation right. And so this gets back to and you start getting into how that we we we take the like the whaler analogy, We take the whale and we chop it up, and we we present the fact quote unquote facts. How people see this this very important happening in the outdoors. You had Secretary Zinkie at the time he was no longer Secretary Interior, was was really playing up his relationship with hunters and anglers. UM, this was a big thing people wanted to support from our community on this um. And so now you have the National Rifle Association, which I read to you n R a applause. Trump administration for restoring a S. S. Tou tall public lands. Now, to be clear, I'm not picking on the n r A for any other reason that when I googled this, they came up first, so good for them on s c O. But they were not the only one that that had this. UM. This was racking. MOLNLK Foundation, National Wild Stricty Fare and others parated this same talking point. UM. I want to go and double check that those folks are involved, but I'm almost positive that many conservation groups in our space parroted this messaging as well around this, and they just said this is a very press release. Ee. The National Right Association's i l A today applauded President Trump and Secretary of Interior Ryan Zinky's decision to restore access to public lands in Utah. President Trump announced it he intends to shrink the size of the Bears Ears and Grand Staircases Scalante National Monuments, spanning millions of acres in Utah. The two national monuments were among twenty seven that President Trump ordered Interior secretaries in each review earlier this year. Now to go back to the points of emphasis, opponents of this review said that the review was fake. All they were doing is feigning and review, so they could they take these two You know, this was what they started out to do to shrink these two monuments, and the review was what it was to kind of shield politically shield this political action. It says the n Ray applause the President Trump and Secretary Zinky. This is former i l A Executive Director Chris cox decision to restore access to public lands in Utah. Under the Trump Administration's decisions regarding national public lands are transparent and being made with the input of America's sportsmen and women. Hunters and sportsmen serve as the backbone of modern natural resource management in the United States. It's refreshing that the Trump administration values their input. It almost feels like Chris Cox is trolling us there. Feel like it feels like he's just being like he's saying the opposite of what he's doing to to to troll us, to see if wh' I'm noticing um so, so they to to set off the other side. You know, the motivation clearly here is to get hunters and anglers on board and and to use the idea that we pay through excise taxes and license sales for the bulk of um conservation work in this country and use that power to say like these these sent you'll stakeholders are on board with this and we're doing this for them, and also at the same time saying the national monument designation is a problem for access for hunting and fishing UM and so here we are that. You know, it's I want to let you kind of comment, and like I said, I will be very honest that I haven't kept up on what actually happened in the last year, but I know that there were some some mining leases and things going up in UM both of these national monuments that I haven't checked on. So maybe we'll update this in the in the prologue. Yeah, I I I'm not as up on this topic as I was a year ago either. UM. So I would love to be able to say here's what's going on, but I can't do that with any authority whatsoever. I think that I think that we are and by we I mean hunters and anglers. We are a valuable demographic right now. And and you saw at in the most recent the most recent Congress right like Great American Outdoors Act was I think an excellent example of representatives and political consciousness is realizing we we we gotta get this board, this particular group on board. It's one of those few places we can sway people and and so all of a sudden we're valuable and different, different different sides, however you want to characterize that, different political persuasions are gonna skin what they do differently in order to try and sway us to one side or the other. I and I think I think all of this circles right back to where we started in that, like, you know what, I don't really want to hear the predetermined conclusion about why this is greater, why it's terrible. I really want to hear how this is going to impact the public lands that I care about, in in in concrete measure norble terms. Yeah. And and you know when I now, when I announce the social media, just be like, hey, I might I might vote for Trump. It was like three days before the election, I was like, right now, if I had vote today, I'd vote for Trump. And it was a shitty three days from me trying to figure that out. But when I said that, a lot of people called me from both sides to discuss. And what happened was when I gave my reasoning. I would hear two things from people on the right. They would say, Hey, our public plans aren't under attack as much as you think they are. It's not a problem. Because I was often I was vascalating between gun rights and public land access, environmentalism and things I care about for for healthy ecosystems and healthy wild places and the ability to defend my family and what that all means, and some of the nuances between the two things. So I'm thinking about those two things in my mind. I'm trying to weigh them out. And I heard pretty consistently from people I respect, Ah, you know your gun rights aren't under you know, you'll be able to keep your shotguns and rifles. For people on the left, and for people on the right, hey, your public lands are fine. Like the trying to convince me that the you know, the my fear should be elevated against one of these issues that or another right. And I think that to me, that showed me a lot in just how people. You know, when when you lean one way, even if you lean very intellectually that way. Um, I think you're predisposed to to think that you know, your gun rates are fine. Uh, access to those things are fine and and in reality, maybe they're both not fine. Yeah, that's what do you do? That's what I said. I said, Well, maybe maybe they are not fine, and I, in my opinion, they aren't because I can see because I care about the stuff I read about it, I think about it quite a lot um and I know that no matter where I vote, I'm putting something I value at risk. And that's the problem I have. And and it's not a to me. It's not the you know, the better of two evils or the lesser of two evils. It's it's how do I It's It's not that, it's it's how do I weigh these very important things when I go and I make those decisions. And what we've just highlighted here is is part of why we are unclear thinkers collectively, and part of why even our passions, even our pursuits are enthusiast pursuits like hunting and fishing land directly in the same muddy water as national politics. Um So, yeah, now all we have to do is end on providing the solution. Go ahead, Miles, I, I yeah, I got it. It's all figured out. What here's what I'm gonna say, now here's here's my issue with all sides of it. And I'm worried because I know what I'm gonna sound like right now, but I'm gonna say it anyway. As I said from the beginning, when when you first started quoting the article profit and sales, to me, the I'm I'm way to for and I don't see any evidence of becoming. But I'm waiting for the candidate that is not actually in the pocket of the huge, massive corporations and the very few billionaires on both sides of the political spectrum that are that are the ones pushing all these agendas um to. I will also admit I'm not a huge Bernie fan, just because like he strikes me as like the really obnoxious uncle at Thanksgiving and that's always yelling at everybody, and I don't really like that guy. But I I do agree with his perspectives of of we have to find a way to strip the profit and the money out of our political system or we don't have a path forward. And I in some ways that's true with our media system too. But as I said earlier, I don't like the the alternative of it being a state run media either, So I'm not I'm not on board with that ship. So I don't know how we move the profit game out of these very very important pillars of democracy. But god damn, that's what I think we gotta do. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, in the hunting in the hunting and fishing conversation, one of the things I often say that that that when I look logically at hunting, I'm like, man, I'm glad the North American molelide widlife conservation exists because at least we could start by like a thought out foundation that has tenants and ways of acting and things that um should educate us and dictate how we function and and then we can determine our sets of values and try to move around with that. So I'm always very comfortable with that. But I will say this at the same time, I don't know of any you can tell me of of any political shows or any shows that are discussing this kind of stuff other than advocacy groups or conservation groups that clearly have that have a stated goal public land access, elk populations, turkey populations, you know, fish populated, whatever it might be, healthy habitats. These are are lots of times single species conservation groups that are taking up the mantle of political discourse within the hunting and fishing space. There isn't a show about politics that talks through these things and tries to educate people in hunting at all. We have seeded the conversation to either outsiders or people that have clearly stated nonprofit goals in terms of conservation or wildlife, and we're both. So I'm not saying I know much about all of that. It's not all bad, but we certainly should try to break it down for ourselves more because we don't have something dedicated to doing that, and I don't know where where it starts or what the incentive for it. That's it. The incentive for it is like that would be a tough job for anybody, you know. And as you said earlier, we have we have uh this show. If everyone hated this show on both sides and it tried to remain firmly in the middle, which sometimes happens to this program, um, most companies would be like that, that's not a good business model. Why don't you go with the hate incorporated business model? Because we did. We live in a world where people actually actively hate hunting and try to stop it. And so I could just come on here every week and go, you know, here's the list of all the things you need to be worried about and be angry about and hate. Um wouldn't be hard to do. But you know, when we do that, we often do that after we've heard from an anti hunter or a vegan or something like that. So we can then say, like, here's what they said. Now here's what's happening on the you know, on the on the legislative side or a policy side. That is the manifestation of these feelings. Right, They're trying to ban bear hunting New Jersey to save the bears. Here's a guy who his ideologies lead to this legislation and the end of this song, etcetera, etcetera. So at least try to string it out in a way that just does and pander to people's hate of people that don't like what they do. If we can take one thing away from this, I certainly think that we can, all of us can can pick out when we're being pandered too, when when the hate is being delivered in a weaponized way, in a in a very narrative way, like when it happens, when some big political thing happens, and hunting and fishing and the outdoors are involved, we should be able to look at it and suss out the real facts and pick out the bullshit pretty quickly if we If we train ourselves to really look hard at at the presentations and the motivations of those UH outlets and conservation organizations and entities that have goals, we fix it done. Follow the money, Follow the money, all right, everybody? Well hopefully um, And and we'll talk about what we're gonna do in in episodes going forward. But we're gonna continue down this path and and the Tayebe paradox will will be showing up in future episodes of this year. Back anytime, man, you know what you know, I love these conversations. I love it too. I appreciate you in every way. And go listen to Bent. If you aren't already listening to Bent, you are a loser. Uh. And that's it's on you really, So all right, man, you have a good night, and we will talk to you real soon. Brother. Thanks brother, Yep, that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to our friend Miles Nolte. Is that right? And Miles Nolte uh And I got called out this last week on the Bent podcast because I've been consistently pronouncing his name Miles Nulte like with a little French accent over the eat, but Nulty like Nick Nolty, well all the yeah, Nick Nolty is a badass. Um. So lots lots covered. There a lot of ground covered. Again. Um. I think this is an important topics. I think it expands everything we do you in life, and it really dictates how we talk to each other, how exchange ideas, how we think about things. And I will freely admit that every podcast of this nature, every media thing other than as Phil brought up before we got in with Miles, other than things like the AP and and some of this strict news report, everything has a value proposition. Everything has the thing that you listened for, right. I've listened to podcasts before that made it seem like masculinity was the only thing that mattered and it was under attack. I've listened to podcast before that that told you that religion was under attack, that your your First Amendment rights were under attack, that your gender, that your race. I've listened to a news broadcasts and all types of media that had told me that every aspect of my life is under attack, as we talked about with Miles, So, UM, thank you for listening to that whole thing. I wanted to examine that I was inspired by Taiebi. Uh, if you want to go, there's no reason for me to be promoting him other than I really Shady's ideas and his writings. So go see him. But we're going to next week and weeks after because we have so many new hunters coming into this show and coming into our sport, our pursuits. Uh, talk a little bit more about guns, gun culture. Um, what do you need to know if you're a new gun owner. We did go over some of the n RAY safety rules with Phil a couple you know last week. We're gonna do that more with Ian Harrison, who's the editor in chief of Recoil magazine, and then down the road some other folks that have some diversion ideas from Ian. But first Ian next week on the Hunting Collective, say by Phil By because I can't go a week without doing run with

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