00:00:12 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an alder row. Hey, everybody, welcome to episode one twenty three of the podcasts. Phil. I could see you wanted to step in there, but I got it right, didn't I? You? Did you? You caught yourself? All right? Another week? This is uh are I think our twentie quarantine podcast, and I'm feeling very melancholy. I feel I haven't killed a turkey yet. Everyone else is killed at least twenty turkey. I mean, the turkeys are just even even I've killed twenty turkeys. It's incredible. Yeah, quite the poacher. Um. I just and I feel this is I I don't think I've gone this long without killing the turkey, for like ten years, maybe more, I don't, I don't know, I don't account. But so I'm feeling a little weird, a little down. So we brought in Mark Kenyon to help me out. Mark Kenyon, I'm sorry you're feeling this way, ben uh, but if it makes you feel any better, I'm right there with you. That's why you're here. You're pretty much the only other person on the team that has a killer turkey. We've got a good excuse though, Yeah, yeah, progeny. Progeny. Yeah, we should get into before we do that. I've got a few emails here, um, asking about updates on our vasectomys. Uh, it's a big no go over here. My wife is looking for more more of these children. Where where are you at? Oh man, she You're really not gonna be able to get one. We're still on we're still on the snip snip plan right now, but you know, non essential surgeries are not available at the moment given our current health crisis. So um, so yeah, we're just waiting for things to clear up on that front. And then I guess it's time to shut down business because we are not interested more kids here at the Kenyan household. This is all we can handle anyway. My Turkey, My Turkey season has gone somewhat nuclear, and it's hard. I don't it's a first world problem, and so I hesitate to even make it sound as desperate as it feels inside right now. Um, but it brings up a lot of different issues, and the major issue I mean, I've been out for I've been out for roughly four mornings. I sat in snow twice, sunshine once, and rain once. Um. I had a couple of fired up Tom's on some some private lands. I watched them from public and tried to coax them over and they were hend up and having absolutely none of my advances. And so that's like my you know, we're I don't know what a couple of weeks in, almost two and a half weeks into turkey season, and that's the the extent of my experience. And boys that rough um, Mark Kenyan, You've got a similar but but varied thing going on over there. Yeah, you know, like everyone, I'm not traveling anywhere to go turkey hunt right now, so it's just Michigan for me. And the unique situation I have here is that we're trying to film a turkey hunt on the back forty, so I can't use my tag. We only get one turkey tag in Michigan, so I can't turkey hunt in a normal manner. But I have been craving just getting out there, and I just want to be engaged in it. So I've gone and done something I've been calling catching release turkey hunting then, and given your stance on catching release, I'm sure you're gonna love this. Mark and I. Mark and I have argued into the late into the night about catching release fishing, and so now he's he's doing this home purpose, he's doing some purpose to me. So catching release turkey hunting involves going out without a weapon just to be out in the spring woods and hunt quote unquote for turkeys. Just try to get one in arrange for the fun of it. Uh, since I can't shoot one and use that tag, I've just gone out there on a property that I'm not going to hunt later and just try to call one arrange. So my goal has been this year to get quote unquote five turkeys. So I want to get five in range in Michigan. Then I'll just you know, take a picture or film with my phone for fun. And I have gotten one gobbler so far in that way, and I could have killed eight eight jakes if I'd wanted to, So if I had to, I could have had eight jakes come up within like four ft of me while just laying on the ground. So that was pretty fun. And I've taken my son out twice, which has been probably the highlight of my turkey season. So he's two years old and he's really into turkeys, like he's got two slate calls of his own, and he's constantly yelping away on and he brings him out in the woods to him and he's he's yelping and pecking and clock in and just having a good time. And we went out a couple of days ago and had some gobblers come in that he spooked once they got into eyesight range. And then we went out this morning for about an hour and same thing. We had one coming in and as soon as he got close, you know, my son's just kind of moving around in the brush and saying turkey, turkey, and uh, it doesn't bode well for close encounters, but that's that has been fun. So there's no meat on the table, but trying to make the best of it. Yeah, yeah, you're shooting blanks. Huh. That's really all I want to do right now. Then, you know, for the next thirty years in my marriage. Yeah, I mean, you're you're catching released turkey. Hunting has it's got a lot of uh threads to it, because you know, I was watching you do this and I'm like, man, you know, I wonder you just never know, because I feel like if I was like, I'm gonna go without without a weapon, every turkey the Tri State area would come running over in the minute that you introduce a shotgun or or bow into the situation. You know, as fate would have it, it's not gonna happen that way. Um. Anyway, there's a lot of things that we can talk about from your catch release, turk counting, but I there's I just don't really know. Do you feel productive doing that? You don't feel like it's a catch two? You don't feel just just like empty, No, not at all. I mean you're out there in nature enjoying it. You're here and birds, you're seeing birds. I Mean a big part of what I enjoy about hunting is the process leading up to the kill. It's not just about poland trigger. Of course, I would love to get meat, but I'm still gonna get I think I'll still get my turkey this year. I'll make sure to get my one turkey in the freezer. So it's it's not for I'm not sacrificing that. I'm just gonna get some mornings out there enjoying the hunt as best as I possibly can. Yeah, man, given this quarantine, it's a hell of a lot better. And sitting in the house, so well, that's it. That's it's of the days I've been able to hunt most of them. I can get out in the morning, but I gotta get back either for work or or for for kids duty. And then the weekends it's hard to get away. It was because of the family situation, and um you know, you know your your son sons are similar age of my sons. Um, so we've been pro creating at a similar pace in cadence. Um and and it's so I hate to even complain, it's not I love spending time in my family and I love turkey hunt, and I've been able to kind of, um work it together in a way that you know, had I killed have I had I killed one of the turkeys I was was working on that couple of mornings, then it would be a different story. But it's just a limited factor if you taking your son. We went out and the roosted some birds a couple of times, and he scouted with me, and we called called to some jakes and they came running across the field one time. Um, so yeah, he's been out running around with me. He you know, it was so much scouting time and so much windshield time in my Tanna just because I'm new to the area that, um, I'm worried. I'm worried about burnout where he's concerned just riding around in a car with me for hours on end, And so I have some local places now that that it'll be great in the future to take him. Yeah. I was just gonna say that taking Everett is like my get out of jail jail free card, because if I've got him, then I'm still doing my parental duty. So i can be out there outside having a good time while also feeling like I'm not a derelict, and that's a pretty good thing. Yeah, so we can move on. For that, I will say I would keep everyone updated. I'm definitely going to work on. We still have twenty one days or so of turkey season here left then, um, about a month of bear season left, so I'm determined to fill some tags. Um, but it's been slow going, slow going for good reasons. Um, you know, as I was, you know, we're all aware. As much as we joke around and laugh, there's a lot of people with bigger issues than I'm not having a whole munch of time to kill turkeys. So we we see and hear that. But man. You know, I take a lot of stock, and not only the meat that's in the freezer. As I've said a lot of times, I tried, if I was gonna try to get ten turkeys this year, two or three would be nice. Um, But I've got a lot of intellectual property on local hunting spots I didn't have last year, and I have a lot of fun time outside with the kiddos, like you said, Mark, so um, hopefully you get hopefully we get that back forty hunt in Man fingers crossed. I'm hoping. So I uh, they're there. They're there and just waiting for me. So turkeys and mushrooms soon, very soon. Yes. Yeah, We've had some sunny days here in Bosman recently, and I'm in some rain today and some rain last week a little bit. So I'm thinking mid this week till late this week it's going to be mushroom time for sure. And in turkeys are um our goblin and have been a little bit here. I've I've run into some some hand up fellas, but I think that will change, so um, just stick with us, stick with us. I'm feeling like a pretty poor hunter right now, feeling feeling down to the dumps. I will admit without a few extra white claws this weekend, just just thinking about it. But we'll get over it, right Phil, Lift me up, Phil, Lift me up. Ben, I crapped in the woods this weekend. I did really his first crap in the woods. Congratulations, crap in the woods. Thank you, thank you. That makes you don't understand what that does to me. I feel a little bit awkward that I'm so excited. But I needed that. I mean, listen, I did it just for you, because otherwise I absolutely would not have done it. Um And I gotta tell you it was not great experience. Was this? Was this like impromptu? You were out doing an outdoor activity and you thought, well, I gotta do it. Better do it to make Ben happy, or just go in the backyard and take a dump one time? No I went. I went out for a hike this weekend, a little warm up hike, just to get the legs back in some some amount of shape before I tried to do some bigger ones this summer. And ure this paint the picture it was? It was what kind of morning was it? Was it calm, Wendy. It was It was a late late morning into afternoon. Um, it started out calm, It was a night. It was a very pleasant sixty to sixty five degrees low winds. Um. I went to an undisclosed trail in the Gallatin Valley and Riparian Corridor. Or were you in the foothill regions near a river? Where were you? Uh? Yeah? I was in the southern foothills of of Bozeman. Um. And I did not have to uh poop. I did not have to uh release, but I I but I I forced it out for you. Oh God, this is red by day. Buddy. Now we should say, do you poop in the toilet and ship in the woods? Mark Canyon? Is that how it has to go? Uh? I typically ship in both, But this depends how you want to put it. That's fine. You wrote an article about crapping in the woods on meteator dot com, did you not? I did, and I wanted to use ship in the headline, but we we decided to keep it tame. And I think we used crap. Didn't we use crap? Yeah? Crap in the woods? Um. So listen, listen carefully as Phil talks about the situation, and then when we're done, you should grade his performance here doesn't sound it doesn't sound great. Well, here's the thing. I didn't read marks articles, so it probably could have gone better. Did you have any guidance or was this all just ad lib? No? This is completely you know, oh natural. I was just feeling it, you know, I was just playing it. Let me sit reading, let me ask you a question though. There's a key question here, and it goes to the timeliness of the quarantine. Because you've never crapped in the woods before. Did you have toilet paper with you at this moment this time? Yes, So I I brought it along with you know, everything I needed. I brought some sanitizing wipes, some ziplock bags. Yeah, you know, because I was listen. I wanted to. I wanted to make you proud. And so I was like, I'm gonna go for this hike and if if nature calls, then I'll report back to Ben. And I was wrapping up the hike and I was like, I don't have to, but I'm gonna try anyway. So I trudged, let's stop from it. What you what was the dinner of the night before or the breakfast? Okay, it's gonna I'm not gonna go into crazy detail. But I'll I will get there, okay. Um. I so the hike was wrapping up. Do you have a curry and you food? He doesn't wanted his bul this I guess I started. I started a couple of coffees in the morning. Oh, of course, So I started looking around. Um, I'm like, okay, I gotta find a place to do this off the beaten path, can I can? I interrupt him? So? Sorry? Please do Yeah, did you have a did you have anyone with you? Or was the solo hike? Oh no, this was solo. Okay? Um. You know it was a nice day, so the trail was relatively active. But I I wandered off. I tried to find kind of like a dead spot where I where there weren't a lot of people passing by, but I went. I trudged into waiste deep snow. I was wearing shorts, by the way, uh to get far enough off trail so that I could still see the trail from a distance. But no one could see me unless they had were like really like looking for me. I thought that you were gonna say, like I I took I went three miles off the trail and uh about the thousand vertical feet, so no we could see me. Oh no, No, I wasn't like, I mean, I wish I would have. Um. So, you know, I dropped trout as the kids say, and uh, you know, I make it happen. Um, let's let's just say it was. It was one of those you know movements where it took a little bit more toilet paper than than average to clean up. Um. So not ideal. Uh, the you know, the multiple coffees in the morning mark. Uh. And so I see, you know, I'm like, I'm wrapping up. Things are okay, it was going all right. I was soaking wet. I mean, like my my shoes were and my legs were, you know, freezing. But I did it. I was proud of myself. Then from a distance, I see a couple coming. But I'm like, oh, that's good, that's good. It's good timing because I just wrapped up. I'll head back to the trail. I'll just pretend I was like Geo cashing or something I don't know. And then but then I hear the distinct jingle of a dog collar and the dog immediately smells me out. And what I left in the woods and just starts going to town on no, like he got right of it. Oh yeah, in the snow. And so of course this couple is like, where is our dog going? They look off, they see me standing there and just like pretending I don't know what's happening anyway. So I just kind of was like looking at my phone, pretending like I was like hunting for buried treasure, treaser or something. I don't know. Anyway, they there, their dog finally went back to them, I hope, smelling all right and uh, and then I made my way back to the trail and finish the hike. Did did the dog run up? And then the two of them knelt down and started let them kiss their faces. And I was too horrified to even I was not even looking. I was like pretending like was on a different planet at that point. What kind of dog was this? This is fantastic? Probably I don't I'm not great with with dog breeds. It was like that it was a medium size for very furry dog, one of those one of the you know the ones great bird dogs. Phil. My only other follow up Phil is um, what would happen if this was Mango? Like, what would you have done if Mango had pulled this off. Well, So in this in this, in this situation, am I the couple walking the trail with our dog and Mango goes running off to those straight to the weird guy crapping in the woods or so then so then Mango, I mean, I don't I would have tried to call her back a little more aggressively than these than this couple was doing. Um, but if she came back like reeking of ship, I probably would have been horrified and uh be a cat person, I guess. But Phil, I mean like I got so any questions go ahead, Mark, I mean this is yeah, I do have some questions about the details, because you didn't read the article yet it sounds like you don't have much experience, So I'm just curious, like, what kind of position did you try to pull it off? Because the very first time I ever took a crap in the woods, I fared much worse than you did. I actually dropped trial, hunched down, and then just dropped a ship right back in my pants and underwear beneath me. So yeah, at least, how did you how did you make sure that didn't happen? Well, so Ben gave me a little advice last week. He was like, you know, trying to look for a log to sit on, or like a tree, to like lean on a stump or some of some some sort. Everything was I mean, it was very inaccessible because the snow was still. It was a north facing slope that I was on, and everything was still pretty pretty icy and snowy. I couldn't really find a great place to just like sit so but I did try to lean on like a stump. Yeah. The ultimately wanted to lean against a tree and then be like a chair, right Like. Sure, I tried to find a good spot to do that, but it was it was tough. You want your knees right. It's also a good workout, but you want your knees to be bent and a ninety degree angle. Phil. But I you know, hopefully that's not going to prevent you from further excursions. Oh, it absolutely will. I will only ever crack in the woods if it's an emergency. Um. Uh, you know it's not gonna stop me from hiking. But um it was not a great first experience. And you didn't go over to the couple and say, hey, listen, Uh no, no, I did not. Yeah, probably would have been proper etiquette to warn them you stop, do not kiss that knog, do not let him lick your hands out. I have so if anybody's listening to this who had an experience with a gentleman that looked like Phil, and please right in and let us know. If this was you, we'd love to have you on the show and we could probably give you a full set of free First Light or something. Who knows, but we'll shower you with gifts as an apology for Phils for fiddls misdeeds in the woods there. Well, thanks for that, Phil. That really uplifted me, buddy. I was feeling I tried so down, so melancholy, and then you just you you know, I didn't know about this until just now when you sprung it upon me. Um, I'm feeling really good, buddy that that that was hilarious And uh, I don't know if inspiring is the right word, Mark Kenyon. You know, like encouraging, though at least encouraging a man getting out of his comfort zone, which is key in life. I find. And he practiced proper leave no trace etiquette by making sure there was none left over. That's true, nothing was left behind. Nothing was left behind. If, if only, if only the people whose dog uh well, really, any listener, any listener out there, has had something similar happen to you, Please write in and let us know. We'd love to we'd love to talk to you about this um and and give either pile more shame on to Phil or make him feel better. Either one. I'm fine with both. In fact, uh well, So we gotta we gotta somehow move on. I don't know how we're gonna move on from this um, but we somehow have to move on to two ticks. And I guess Phil, if you're taking a crap in the snow, you don't get to worry about ticks. That's a that's a plus. Um. I've got a couple of emails recently, one from Max Mattie Olie, we'll say Maddie Oli is his last name, asking about a couple of a couple of questions. But but the most relative question, the most frequent question is about alpha gau syndrome. Phil, are you familiar with alpha gel syndrome? Never heard of it? Mark Kenyon, you see alpha gale like gl alpha gel syndrome? Is this like similar to a Visco girl? No? No, it's not. No, it's not. But no, no, you're not familiar with Oh okay, you probably are, but just not by that name. This is the the type of food allergy to red meat that happens when you are bitten by a lone star tick and that and that tick bite transmits a sugar molecule called molecule called alpha gal into your body. Um, and then in some people this triggers an immune system reaction that produces like a pretty severe allergic reaction when you eat red meat. Um. This has been obviously phil for never having heard about this. For a hunter to go hunting for turkeys or morrel's or black bears or whatever, doesn't matter, whatever spring hunting activity, because that's when generally these ticks are most active and and the most impactful. To go out in search of red meat, or go out in search of meat in the woods and come back with a severe allergy to to set meat. It is ultimately ironic and I think very interesting. Um, people Mark, any of you know of any hunters that have gotten alpha gall synderm or had experiences with this. I've talked to people. UM. I think I had some of my podcast before, but I can't remember who. So I've talked to some people in passing, but none of like my good friends or family have them. Yeah, I feel like there's you know how there's like six degrees of Kevin Bacon, there's six degrees of Alpha gaut center for sure. UM. I know multiple people. I know multiple people that know multiple people that have it, um and and the bulk of them naturally from the circles I travel in our hunters and got it, you know, predictably got it while hunting. And so it's something, um you should all be thinking about. And I pulled up just an article from the Mayo Clinic because you know, this is one of those things that it sounds it sounds mysterious even to hear it, and there's no known cure for this UM. So that's one of those things that scares people as well. But the lone Star tick is is that, you know, I would say, a medium sized tick that has a white dot on at the top of its body, so it's easily identifiable. I've seen um many of them in Texas when I lived there, but they're not just in Texas despite their lone star name. UM. I I know that there are some in Michigan. Uh, mar Kenyons will be watching out for these. Um, they're there, but they're spread across the East coast as well in the southeastern United States. Um, they're less prevalent than typical like deer ticks. Right, Yes, yeah, they've they've been less prevalent. But you know how, you know how how ticks have kind of become more predominant across the East Coast and stretching down into the southeast and even over to to where you are, Michigan. It is not Um, I don't have any numbers here on the amount of them that are hanging around, but it's not suffice to say this, this syndrome and this tick have been become a topic you discussion because there's more instances of this happening where this was. I had never heard of this past five years ago. Now I'm hearing about it every year, and people are asking questions about it every year. It is a pretty constant underlying topic when it comes to spring spring seasons. And that's on top of just worrying about limes disease too. Yeah, for sure, limes disease has been is the one thing we think of when we think it ticks, but there are very many other bacterias and diseases that they inject in your body when they bite you. Um, this is it's just something that always comes up market. And UM, so I know you don't have any direct experience with alpha gl thank god. But but what's the you got any tick prevention thoughts. I don't. I don't have any super secret special ticket advice. I guess. Um, I just try to apply bug spray, you know, in the places where you want it, near the you know, the ends of your sleeves, bottom of your pants, around your neck, shoulders, that kind of thing. Um. And then I always do check myself quite a bit when I'm out there in the field, and then again when I get home. I do a very thorough check every time. Um. And I don't want to get gross here, but I uh, I will never forget I will absolutely never forget this. There was an episode of House. Do you guys remember House? Yeah? Great great show. I remember watching it back in high school I think it was, And there was a there was a person who came in who had this mysterious sickness, as they always do during House, and her symptoms. The very first thing that they expected given her symptoms was lime disease. But they searched her and they could find no tick, no bite mark, nothing, There was no sign of a tick bite other than these very lime disease like symptoms. So then they moved on to other things. And they spent the whole next forty five minutes of the show examining every different possible issue that could be. Nothing matched up. They couldn't figre out why she was so sick, she was dying. This thing was horrible. And then somehow, and I can't remember the details exactly, but somehow doctor House thought to look um in her private parts. I'll just say to keep the family friendly, he decided to check her private parts and found a tick in there. And so for that reason, I'm just very very careful with all tick related searches everywhere. Make sure you check, because you don't want one of these mysterious hidden ticks to get you and to give you something like alpha gael or or limes disease. So that's that's that was my favorite part of Houses. Things. Things look dire until the last five minutes when Hugh Laurie would be like, wait a minute, and get this idea. All all the doctors would be like, you can't do that. He'd be like, trust me. Then he'd end up saving a life. Yes, yeah, Well this podcast has kind of gone into some weird areas. Um, both physically and it's angeblely and into agibly. But that's true. Um, was that a tip or just was there a tip attached to that? It was check? Check everything, check everything? Okay, got it? Got it? Uh, permethrin probably say, permethrin is something that you should all have. I think, Um, it is very toxic. It's twenty two it's over times more toxic to humans than it is to ticks. But um, put in your clothing. Oh yeah, Um, I'm sorry, I've switched that up. It's ticks to humans. It's more toxic to ticks than humans. But it's still not a great thing to be messing around with. But I do put that on my sleeves. Um. I put that on the cups of my pants and around the edges of my boots and other places where a tick might enter. Um, it's it's something that will kill a tick, it'll keep them off you. I don't I unless I think it's gonna be you know, when I'm hunting in early season Montana. I'm not putting that on. But if I'm gonna if it's in a dead center of spring and I'm rolling around belly crawling through weeds and Texas or Missouri or Michigan where there's gonna be a lots of ticks, um it is. It's something you really, in my opinion, can't go without. UM. You know, it's important, important to know what it is and and what it does. But permethern is is something I think really will help you. UM. And so I'll tell you Max that that UM. Other than that you know and the all the you know, like I said about half a dozen emails about ticks in the last week or so, UM, I take And I told I remember telling Calvis when we were hunting in Texas for access to here. I take when I can get a shower, I take a shower, like if if I'm doing a full day hunt and I can skip back to the lodge and take a shower in the afternoon, and and that means it's not gonna totally skirt my hunt. I will do it um during the spring seasons. Because that you don't want limes disease. You don't want chronic limes disease. You don't want alpha gel syndrome. You don't want anything like that. Um. And so while it may seem you know, overly prescriptive to to to take three showers a day while you're out um, spending time and you know, tall green grass and sitting up against trees that will have ticks on them, it's not to say, Um, you know, being overly cautious is a good thing because limes disease not like unlike alpha syndrome. I'm sure we all know people that that have had problems with limes disease. My dad has it, and um, my mother in law has chronic limes disease, which is awful. It's turns, it turns into arthritis, and so um, yeah, I think awareness, just being aware is an important thing. Just when you're out there at that time of year, just constantly checking, checking your sleeves, checking your knees, check your boots, like I'm if it's tick season. I just I'm always looking for them. The best thing to do is, you know, find them before they get on you your skin. So just keep tabs too. I think that's an important first step is just make sure it's not something you let slip mind, slip your mind, Yeah, got it? All right, Well we're moving on. Um, Phil, hopefully you don't have any I hope you continue to crap in the woods when necessary, but in the spring, in the spring season, just be wary. Okay, buddy, um we'll do now. The one tick bite I've ever gotten. They burrowed into, uh the crevices down there kind of kind of close to where Mark was talking about earlier. Yeah, it was not It was not a great experience. Were you aware of what Market was talking about earlier? Huh was a female patient? Well, yes, I understand, Ben, but it wasn't that same general area, oh the crotch all region. Yes, I was just confused us for just a moment. Would you like going to be more specific? It was around the taint area. It's called the perennium. Is that it? That's the gooch? I think that's the technically, got it? Okay, yeah, just I we'll have to put a disclaimer in the front of this podcast, like, hey man, like sometimes it just goes this way. There's nothing we can do. It's not our fault. It's not our fault. This is this is a medical emergency. UM last email before we get to our friend Donnie Vincent and what was a very interesting conversation about nature and the pandemic and viruses and just every Turkey season, everything you can think of with our friend Donnie Vincent. One last email and then email is going to come from Anthony. Man. Why get some realized this is like the m m U s c I O T t O. I would just spell that m U s c I O T t O. Phil, give me that mashudo Mrs Suzios show. I don't know anyhow. Uh, this is one for you, Mark Kenny, because I feel like you have a unique perspective on this given your past career. UM. But he's asking, hey Benn and Phil. It goes on. He says, the reason I'm reaching out today is because as a twenty three year old graduate who was also a devoted outdoorsman, I've started the search the job market in the outdoor industry. I have a degree in professional sales and experience in business management. My passion resides within the outdoors. I want to use my degree and combine it with my passion, which is the hunting and fishing. I've been googling and surfing the internet, but nothing has really piqued my interest, and I haven't had much luck searching for what I am looking for. Any advice on start starting my search or searching in general how to make a career out of this. Um. When I read this, I'm like, I was glad we were having you on today, Mark, because you have a unique perspective. UM. And it's kind of it's maybe a little bit of the reverse of what Anthony's working on, which is kind of just making your own way instead of searching the market. Uh. Yeah, but I think there are some parallels in that. You know, I came from a sales and marketing background, worked for big tech company. Uh. And at the same time as I was starting that career, I was also starting my own thing, which was wired to hunt. And so I was trying to grow this, like, as you said, make my own way by growing this business in the hunting world, to to be something that I could combine my passion with the outdoors and hunting with you know, some means of business. Um. But I think that what I learned through that process applies to trying to get a job within this community too, which is find what your thing is so find what you're uniquely qualified to do or uniquely passionate about, or that you have this um unique value you can bring. So for me, it was realizing, okay, I can it's communicating, it's it's podcasting, it's writing, it's that kind of thing for me. For some people it's photography, for some people it's business. UM. But find what your thing is and then just start tapping into the community network. I think it's I think it's been set a thousand times, but it's so true that networking, meeting people, getting involved with this community, the hunting or the outdoor of the fishing community, whatever is you want to be involved in, just finding ways to get involved. So that's maybe starting by going to the A T A show or going to shots show, or going to local events, or getting involved the conservation organizations or volunteering UM or taking an unpaid internship or you know, any any way you can get involved with companies or organizations or groups of people that are in this world and then start showcasing whatever your unique value is that leads to opportunities. So for me, that meant writing a bunch, that meant eventually launching a podcast. That meant making videos and then just doing it over and over and over again and reaching out to as many people as it possibly could over the years and building connections with people, magazine editors, companies, different folks. In over time, opportunities arose. And I think the same thing can happen with someone who's got a business degree who wants to get in this industry. I think if you meet folks, show your value, do that enough people, people will present opportunities and good things can happen. So it's it's absolutely possible. Yeah, yeah, you just gotta I get this. I don't know if you get this question a lot mark, but I get it pretty freaking do um And I it's understandable. I mean, I'm sure I had a similar question. In fact, I don't know that I had this question because I wasn't aware I wanted to be a sportswriter coming up. I wasn't aware you could be, you know, I was aware there was hunting media, but I didn't. I wasn't aware that it would would be a career, um than anyone would pursue. I just never I never considered it, probably to my um, you know, to my downfall early on. But then when I realized it was something. I kicked that damn door in and ran right through it, and I'm like, I'm not going back out the other side, and you're gonna have to push me out. UM. So that's often my advice. I mean, you have to look for a way in, look for a door, and when you see it, kick that son of a bit as hard as you possibly can, and you do not let someone push you out the other side. Um. And that's that's as simple, and you know, as vague as as simple as it is. My my. Everybody has a different story about how they kind of what door opened for them and how they kind of got in there. But it's about being able to recognize, um, those opportunities and not let them go by. Yeah. I think I think your point is a good one in that it requires a proactive approach. Things aren't just gonna just drop out of the sky on top of you. You have to seek them out. You have to be looking for them, working for them, looking for what that opportunity might be, at least trying to put yourself in the position to receive that opportunity. This isn't something you just sit in your laurels and then mysteriously all of a sudden, Oh, this great thing in the outdoor industry drops in your lap. No, it's it's gonna take a lot of work. It's gonna require kicking down some doors. Um, but if this is what you really love, it can be worth it. Yeah. I had a friend, Um, I got well, a guy. I man, he's a friend now, but a guy I met on a on a media hunt some years ago. He was taking photos. Um. He had was a freelancer, a freelancer and had been hired by a company to take photos. And we're sitting there in the campfire and he was asking me this question. Hey, you know he was twenty one, I think or two at the time, Like, how do I turn in what I'm doing, turn what I'm doing right now, this moment when I'm sitting here with you doing, which is having a good time taking photos and hunting and enjoying life. How do I turn this into a career? And I said, You've already got You've already had your opportunity. The fact that you're sitting right here is your opportunity. The question is now what do you do with it? You know, you're luckier than a lot of people. I think he had met someone that worked at Bushnell Optics and they had thought he was talent did and young and cheap and and gave him a foot in the door. And I said, you you know, this is it, man, this is it if you don't ask that question anymore, because you have the opportunity already, UM that many people will have to fight a long time to get. So you it's up to you now to take take this and run with it. So there's no formula. He did, Yeah, he did. He now has a career. UM. And actually and uh land Man has written real estate I think with white tailed properties, I want to say. And then as a cameraman on the side, I want to say that I'm not sure um exactly, but he's in the industry and working and do one he loves. UM still a young man, still a long way to go. But but it turned turned that opportunity into something more. So, UM, there's different levels of it. But hopefully UM, I'm sorry about your we got your last name wrong, Anthony, but hopefully Anthony, that helps you man, Um, search for that door and when you find it, kick it in. And as Mark said, just proactivity because it's not going to come to you, and certainly, if it does come to you and you're that lucky, do not mess it up because it's this is this is something that a lot of people want to do. Um. You know, as evidenced by the questions we get in the things that come out of here. All right, well, we're gonna move on to what I'm calling Phil the Ballad of Eric Hall, our favorite listener, our sweet sweet man. Um, we caught up with him. We wanted to just catch up with him and just see like what what his home life was like. But also I figured because Eric has been on the show a ton, his recorded voice has been on the show a ton, because he sends he sent me a voicemail the other day. Um, he's been such a part of the show for the last hundred twenty some episodes. Um, since he's been listening, it'd be nice to have him on check in and make sure he's okay, and do a little bit of a recap of some of our favorite air call moments from the last hundred episodes. And so, um, Phil is gonna work late into the night tonight building this. He's shaking and said that he's not gonna do it. No, he's gonna work the minimal amount on putting together the ballot of Air Call, and then we will catch up with Air Call, and after that we're gonna go right into Donnie Vincent. Today's interview subjects Donnie Vincent. Donnie Vincent is a man with a lot to say. He's had a lot of life adventures, a lot of life experiences, and he's a great biologist and conservationists. He's a sleeper when it comes to those two subjects. He really knows more than he lets on in some of his films in his platform, So he's he's great man. He's a lot of surprises for us in this episode. First enjoy Eric call being Eric here. I can't you know, I gotta say you So he's just spraying up pain and suffering, and I understand that the commercial market, Yes, there's pain and suffering involved in the way peaks and chickens and cows of a raised. But that turkeys the other days that I shot in the head, there was no pain or suffering. So there's I'm not saying I didn't take its life, and I you know, I understand the taking the life part, but this was no pain and suffering involved in that I took his life because I'm on eating. I can't believe I feel what the fool had disappointed, he gets go turkey in, but we're gonna give him a past because he don't really know what he's missing yet that we're gonna give him a past. Hey, how's aromatic of I'm a little bit of practice. But Uh, I did help do a vasectomy about thirties, thirty years ago. Uh in the office. One was an army. Uh. I think I could still do it if you all interested. Uh. They say watch one, do one and teach one. So I think I'm good. If y'all look for it, Please stick to podcasts. Believe the wrapping to eminem I concluded that Steve and I told can kill what he's talking about. Fils talking to feel he might be just damned it better to feel because he hunts and I gotta hunt. Joe Bils just an engineer. So Phil, keeping on Eric being, you keep on embracing feel. All right, here we are with another sheltered perspective because we haven't we haven't come up with a better name yet, and nobody's written written in and given me a better name for this for this segment, So we're gonna go with it, and Phil, we have maybe the most special guest of all time with us right now, the our favorite t AC listener, the great Eric Hall. Say Hey, Eric, Hey, good here, it's good to have you. Um, I'll let Phil, Phil, do you have I want you just say what do you have questions for Eric? Do you want to ask him anything? I feel like you guys need to build a report since you've screwed it up so bad with your two point five turkey comments. Well you know, I mean, Ben you you jumped right to it because before we before we hit the record button, I said hi to Eric and the first thing he said to me was two two and a half two point five. So so yeah, Eric, I'm just wondering if if, if if you've been offended by by my rating um or if or if you're a defender of my opinion here actually has a little deflated about two point five. You just don't know what he's missing. So we're gonna let let him have a pass because you don't. He doesn't have any perspective yet. So yeah, exactly, I I'm I'm I'm aware of my shortcomings in this department, but I'm hoping to get out there as soon as i can. So alright, well, I appreciate that. I feel like we're all closer now. Phil, You're not uh not offending as many listeners. Everybody's learning to tolerate you as I am, um and I was. You know, I've gotten about three or four emails of people sending links to online hunter safety courses and also had somebody from the state of Montana email me a thing where there's an apprentice hunter program. So so there might be some options for you. Okay, you and I will just have to say about six ft apart the entire time. It will be it'll be hard for me to tell you what to do, but we'll see if we can make it work. So there is hope. There is hope. But air Call I need to ask you is, how did you discover this here program? Actually, I've been listening to the th HC probably way way back Feel pre Fail, Yes, pre Feel you were in Texas and I've listened. I even went back, I hope verified when I started exactly, but I even went back and picked up episode one and came on and so I'm way up to date. Yeah, I drive back an hour to work, so I have to have something to feel that our coming and going. I love it. Um, you see your anniversary today, it is a thirty two years my wife Anita happy adversity. You guys, how many you have? How many kids you guys have? We have to have a daughter. Uh, she's in Pennsylvania. She's a nurse, so she's dealing with this coronavirus stuff a little bit in her job. She is, uh, actually at a rehab nursing facility for elder people. Yeah, she's dealing with that. They're a little bit. And then I have a son who's Tyler. He's twenty four. He still is all but I'll say much. Well, it's good to it's good to have you on. Like I said, you've left us some of some of the most epic commentary that the show has ever seen. So we we've always appreciated your contributions. You know this this probably this, as I was telling me before he hit record, this this is a segment is really about kind of reaching out to the people that are important on the show and just seeing how they're doing and finding out what the perspectives are. I know, you killed the Turkey and I and I also know that we were gonna invite you to Christmas, but you spent last Christmas with Vice President Mike Pence, so you probably would. Uh you were, you were a big league in US. So that's fine. Um, but before we eat to that, like, what's what's the quarantine kind of you know, done for your life and and how you doing over there? Okay, as far as quarantine, I'm still working. My wife's still working. She's a daycare teacher. Preschool teachers. They've asked them to stay open because of people that can't find childcare, so they're open because of that. I work, I worked at I worked for a company called calm Scope, which we make everything to do connectors with your internet, your broadband, uh, any kind of networking. You're using tom Scope right now. But we did one interesting thing. We had an order come in from actually from it was associated with Ohio State a Field hospital. They had set up for a testing for the coronavirus. And we had an order come in for stuff to do their infrastructure with her internet. And the team jumped on that thing, and it was actually three different plants. Was in love, but yeah, they jumped on it. I think you come in on April the fifth and we had it shipped out to them. I think they had it like on the seventh. So that was really good at we could help with that. That's good man, that's good. And then I think, uh, you know Google's and Amazons and all those. You were a lot of people on Internet right now, so there kind of standing there, you know, the Internet uh capabilities. It's good. You've so you've been supporting t C from from behind the from behind the curtain all along behind this thing. I love it. I love it. Well, Um, you gotta tell us a little bit of your your story. We made the joke and previous episodes that we we loved Jid. We wanted to have you for Christmas. Um, but you were just telling me that you got to go spend some time with Mike Pence over Christmas, and you were big leagueing us. I did, and I did. That's my son in law works for the Wise Communications and he's stationed at Camp David. He's in Army, so I got to spend well, he didn't get to come home for Christmas, so he had to stay with there. But we went over there as a family and had the dinner with him, and then shortly after the dinner we went to the chapel and had Christmas Eve service with Vice President Mike Pence, got to meet him, Jake's hand, speak to him just a second. That's pretty good, Honor, that's pretty good. I'll take it. I'll take it. I did. Uh, I did shake one of the President's hand one time. And that was uh President Forward. He came to West Wilkes High School in Wilkes County in Alkalia when I was a little little guy, probably twelve ten probably team and shook his hand. But yeah, that's awesome. My little guys in here wondering if he can jump on the podcast. You gotta here, you gotta go, buddy. All right, Dad actually had a prest pass. My dad a tired police officer. But and I've got four brothers, So we all went to that to President Forward and we were up front, and Dad actually went back through President Ford's library and found pictures of three of us. Shake your hands, were President Ford. That was pretty neat. So yeah, you've been a big deal all along. Um when it when about did you start hunting? When when was that? Was that something always in your family or did it start later on. Oh yeah, yeah, dad, I started, Well, I would cry, what didn't get to go? When I was probably too young to go. I had two older brothers, but dad had four five boys, so he would drop hold us off and hype the mountain up and this is deer hunting, and he would hike them out and dropping each sun off as the age got bluer younger, and the youngest one sit with him. But yeah, we've been hunting for a long time. Squirrel hunting one like we would come home school and squirrel hunting was like going out with I mean, we boots, greased up, gear laid out, we were ready to go. That's a pretty good strategy for your dad to leave the older kid further away and then kind of like match it down with him and put him walking the longest. This is with the youngest skid though, so it worked out. That's true. All right. Well, well, before we let you go, I want to hear this turkey story you got. I was telling you that I've been out here struggling in Montana and the snow and the cold um and you got a turkey on the ground, didn't you. I did get a tur We got to hear the story. But man and we actually went Saturday and heard some turkeys, didn't get on the thing, went back Sunday morning. We can hunt ti him nine thirty here on Sunday morning privately, So I got back daylight. How who they gobbled and just probably four or five different ones too close enough I thought I could get. So I started calling the one he in the holler to the left. I mean, I kind of knew I should have I set up kind of wrong, you know how you kind of get that feeling that my set up wrong. Well it worked that I had set up wrong. He was actually over the heel at twenty yards to my left. He come around behind me, and of course he'd come into view, and I didn't know it was in the view. I turned a little bit to look and or he seen me. And it don't take them just a minute just to say get out of there. But the one in the holler kept gobbling. So I had actually moved back up the heel fifty yards because I heard another one gobble to my right. I called him a little bit. He was coming across the hollar, so I moved back down fifty yards set up for him and the war the one that was to the left in the holler started gobbling more. He's the one to end up coming. He come up, come right on up. Twenty thirty yards, pretty much a chip shop with thirty yards. But yeah, worked that real good way. Twenty pound like a teenage beard pounds. Yeah, he was a heavy bird for a mantain bird, really heavy, no kidding. Yeah, that's a that's as big as they get in most places. That's awesome. I'm maybe fixed my wife some turkey nuggets for anniversary dinner. You can't go no war, so, uh that's not bad. That's not a bad anniversary plan. Not bad. Not two years. Well, uh man, you gotta think you want to ask me and Phil because here we are, or we'll happy to to unlock the secrets of th ac for you. Man. Yeah, I'll just say I really enjoy the guest. Y'all have a variety of Yeah. I love how you interact with feel I mean, I listened to the me you do to podcast too, and closing of this, I listened all of them. You're probably my favorite. I like how you interact with Phil, and then you interact with some of the guests, even the contest you have amazing gifts, amazing gifts you give away. I want to be kind of like the Oprah of hunting, you know, I feel. And I have a book club and I'm gonna give people a lot of stuff. So that's my new it's my new thing. Yeah. And and and when I'm driving home and I'm listening to the podcast, something comes up right at that time, like when you said sending in a voice message that was right on my out. I can do that while I'm driving, so I don't have to type nothing in or do nothing like that. So that worked out for a year. Yeah, yeah, did you? You have knocked it out of the park many many times, made us laugh many many times. So we appreciate you as much as as you us. And I'm glad to hear that you're still working and you're up and moving around and uh out killing turkeys and about to have a good, good anniversary evening. So we're happy about that. Man, I'm glad, glad you can do it and stay safe out there. It's uh. I am washing a lot of a lot of handwashing. Oh man, I've washed my hands so much. But yeah, I did wear my mask to Walmart. I had to go to Walmart this morning, and I did wear my mask and my daughter's don't do me by that. She's a nurse and everything, so well, that's good. I hope she stay safe too, and hope the whole family, um, it's safe during this time. And we'll keep listening to those voicemails and putting them on the show when we can, and uh, hopefully we'll keep your commute entertaining, right Phil, That's right. Thanks a lot, Eric, very very much so, will appreciate y'all. All right, man, okay, I'll take care. Donny Vincent, what is up? Man? Nothing, I'm I'm talking to you. I'm happy to be talking to you. Nothing's going on. I'm like everyone else. I'm working from home or the woods or the cabin that I'm sitting in right now. Yeah. I mean, I think of all the people We've done a lot of shows. Now, we did fifteen daily shows that so were I'm like the eighteenth podcast are in quarantine. And of all the people I was, you know, excited to talk to for a perspective on this strange time, I think you're at the top of my list, just because I know, I know you thought this through. I know you've probably modeled. I mean, your life is probably not as much changed as some people. But I just interested to like how you approach this. What's your what's your mindset? UM? It means very complex, right, it's UM. On one hand, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about this virus, just so I can educate myself, learn what's going on. I'm interested in viruses in and of itself, just the idea of what it is. It's you know, it's it's a pretty fantastic, uh biological element if you think about really what it is. Obviously it's it's causing a lot of mayhem right now, but just in and of it, what it what it is itself, and how it travels through an animal population. So I just have wanted to learn as much as I could about it. UM. That way, when more of these things happened to us as people down the road, you know, it's just good to have that knowledge base. But it's on some regard to I think a lot of people, and I'm I'm surprised myself, but to a lot of people, this is no one saw this coming. You know, this this is something that is unprecedented. It's never happened before to this extent and to a lot of people on the face Earth, this is um shocking that their lives can be disrupted this much. And to me, UM not to sound callous, and I don't mean this in a callous manner at all, because there's a lot of people that are suffering, a lot of people, um that are suffering financially, and a lot of people that are busting their asses to save a lot of other people's lives. But to me, this is just a virus traveling through an animal population. And you know, if if this happens due uh to a wild population of deer or you know, species of bird or a type of bird, um select group of mammals, subpopulations, you know, it comes in, does his damage, UH and and moves on and the animals that survive have resilience. But to us, we travel on airplanes and trains and buses, and we have developed these massive, massive cities, and so when the spread happens, it's UH and it's unique in that fashion that we get to spread to a massive population. So it's I'm just trying to learn as much as I can and and UH and help out wherever I can. Yeah, that's a good a good way to approach it. We've you know, we have, like I was telling earlier, we've had a lot of a lot of guests on and the refrain in our community, like our hunting community. And I, like I said, this is only over a small sample, that's very anecdotal, but everybody seems okay, um, and everybody's drawing on, like I want to I have certain things I want to control. I want to be self sufficient, and I think this is this situation, this quarantine is kind of a test of that, right. It's like it's like a test of what you can do outside of the structure of society. Like when it breaks down, are you helpless or are you, you know, the one to step up and help. Have you you thought much about kind of what this means in terms of control and self sufficiency. Yeah, And and I don't feel very I don't feel very ready. You know, there's one group of people. You look at, the prepper type, right and I'm kind of curious what proppers are going through right now. I wonder if proppers are sitting in their houses going crap, do I to actually open up my canna beans that I was saving for like, is this a bad day? Is this do I actually start using some of my supplies? What do I do here? I can still go to the grocery store. This isn't this isn't a real situation where there's no food, no gasoline, no diesel, no clean water. So you know, we're we're kind of kissing that edge of of what you kind of need. But and another realization, I have more backpacking gear and hunting gear certainly than the average person, probably quite a bit more than even the average hunter. And um, I feel like I have a really great set of skills that need to get much better, to need to get more extensive. But I think about um personally, I think about just preparing myself even a little bit better and understanding where I would go, what I would do. Um, because cities, really, these populations of people where much many of us call home, even even in established towns, that these are the areas that are gonna, um become really problematic because the people that lose resources food, water, UM, gasoline, they're they're gonna extremely overreact and being a being a panic and and um, you know, probably faltered to a great extent. Whereas if if somebody is you know, when this all, when all of this stuff was kind of brewing, I was in Canada on an island filming a commercial, and when it all kind of started to happen, I thought to myself, I was at a friend of mine's places where we were stationed out of and I thought to myself, if I were him, I would be traveling right now to get to this cabin. And it's a beautiful cabin on a beautiful lake, has a lot of resources for both hunting and fishing, and I thought this would be one of the places that that you'd want to be. You could drink the lake water, you can, there's tons of fish in this lake to catch neat, there's firewood, there's things to build shelters. You're already in this shelter even if you run out of petrol. There are things that you can access um you know, in canoes, and there's things that you can access by foot. And so it just started to really look at the elements, really breaking it down, because if you're if your secondary plan is that you're gonna load all your guns and you're gonna sit inside of your house, in the corner of your shelter with a Uh, you know Benelli and one ninety and you're gonna sit there and and uh and defend your your house and your food and your water. That's that's probably not gonna be very long lived. Yeah, that's for sure. This' it's like I said, we've we've talked about this a lot, and that I this is something I've done, and I do this, um, almost involuntarily. I've like opened up my freezer just a double check, even though I know what's in there, just just to feel a little comfort, feel a little control. I do the same sometimes in my gun safe, open it up, take a look in there. Um. I'm not grasping those things for my dear life, but I am glad they're there, you know. Oh yeah. Somebody was telling me that they were in a gun story the other day and and um they said, man, tons of people and they are buying guns and tons of people and they're buying ammunition. And on one hand, I'm thinking, Okay, I hope, I hope all these people that are buying guns and ammunition have their you know, wits about them and they're just doing this. As you know what. I've been meaning to buy guns. I've been meaning to buy ammunition. I'm gonna use this as kind of a spark to do that, and I'm sure that's what most of these people are doing. And on the other hand, I was thinking fantastic, because you know, when when our when our politics change, sometimes the gun stores and ammunition falls verily quiet, and so sales really dip. And so for me, it's kind of fun just to see people buying guns and ammunition again. And and um, I think it's great that people are stockpiling and that some of these gun companies and ammunition company are are going to be having an uptick in sales and things like that. So yeah, it's it's just you're marking the things that you have, the things that you can do, and really where your mind lives. For me, if I had to, let's say we had a complete um digression of of what we are as a species and who we are as a people. Gasoline stopped, you know, food stopped, water stopped, and you had to grab your wares. You had to grab your stuff, head off into the woods, head off into the wilderness, drive your truck as far as you could before it ran out of gas, throw it backpack on, head off into a place that you wanted to live quite literally the rest of your life, not until things got better. Things aren't going to get better. You're just going and living until the rest of your life, whether that be a night, a week, a year, a long life, whatever that may be. Um, you know, having an understanding of what that would look like and what you how you would feel is pretty interesting to me. And I would feel, um, I'm not going to say relatively comfortable with that. Obviously, that would be a complete upending of of who we are and where the earth is right now and where we are as a people. But if I had to go establish, um, a shelter in the woods, if I had to just use the rudiment e gear that I have, and whether it be a re curve bow or a kompoon bow or a rifle or pistol, whatever it was, and use my ammunition until they are gone, and and even retract back to a spear if it came to that, I mean, this is these are things that this is where my mind lives. Anyway, I'm not celebrating that, but you know, in a in a weird, droundabout way, that's where I enjoy spending my my days, in my life anyway, which is why we're talking on this podcast. It's kind of become my job. And yeah, it's fantastically rewarding. But to the people that aren't into it, to the people that that spending time outdoors doesn't speak to them, I'm sure this is I'm sure this is like a baseball fat bat to the side of the head out of left field, you know what I mean. Yeah, it is. I mean I know a lot of people that are like that, and I find I was trying to articulate just to my wife the other day, just saying, like, when I look at those mountains, I enjoy that. I mean it it looks rough, it looks hard, but I enjoy it. And hunting is like some weird bridge to the idea you're just talking about, Like, at least I'm not actively happily walking across that bridge to get to the other side where I just live in the woods all the time. But at least I know what that bridge looks like, and if I had to, I could conceptualize what it means to just disconnect and go and do this. And in fact, one of the first things I started thinking about when this popped up in a in a more serious fashion, was like, well, what you know what four service cabins? Can I go to? Um? You know what fire towers in you know the Galton National Forest? Can I get to? Um? Where would I get my water? And just like kind of filling in the holes that I knew were there. But you're right, man, if if I didn't know the first place to start, if hunting had been that bridge for me, I it would be scary as ship. I mean, there's no way around it. If you didn't understand kind of the outside world and you were completely disconnected from it, this is this has gotta be earth shattering, it's gotta be. Yeah, I'm curious, um, and I don't want to go down. It's it's funny because I'm not a very politically correct guy, and yet I am because I'm not gonna there's things that I think about that I want to say on this podcast or every podcast I do, that I'm not gonna say, um because I would get strung up in a witch hunt. But UM, I'm curious, um, of the people that were our anti gun owners, the people that I'm curious if any of them have wanted to or how many of them I know some of them have. I'm curious if some of the people that were against guns are kind of thinking, you know what, I'm still against this certain type of gun. But but you know, if they're talking to their husband and they're talking to why saying, you know, honey, I really do think I want to go to the gun store now and learn how to use a gun and at least acquire a gun for our home or for our own protection. Um. But it's very unique. It's a very unique, um time to think about even thinking about being a hunter, being a vegetarian, being a vegan, Like if you're a hardcore vegan, this has got to be really scary because I would think the specialty type foods, the foods that these companies have to really engineer for vegans, um, would you know, I would think that these would be one of the first staples that grocery stores would stop getting. You know, if they had to choose what they're going to get, it's going to be vegetables, meat, milk, you know, soups, crackers, things that have long shelf life, things like things that are perishable but they have to move, and things that have a long shelf life. And so I wonder, you know, and years ago, when we are all hunters and gatherers, there there weren't any vegetarians. There weren't any vegans. There weren't any people that were anti weapon. UM. We lived as animals. We thrived when there was food, We perished when there wasn't. We thrived when we had one baby. We likely lost a second child if we had to UM. And you know, losing men to hunting, losing women to hunting, losing men and women to war between tribes, losing um, losing individuals to starvation, to exposure to elements, things like this, like this is the people that we used to be. And so I just wonder we've I'm not going to call it an evolution, because I think when push comes to shove, we are not totally removed from um who we were as hunters and gathers. That's kind of this is where I compartmentalize in my mind. You know, you take you take men and women that are Green berets and Navy seals and Army rangers and fighter pilots and some of these people, and I think about them, this is just my I'm not drawing a line in the sand. This is this is how I think about them. But I think these are the people that trend more towards These are the people that have not moved so far from the zone of comfort that they that they are still able to tap into their bodies and into their minds to reach an uncomfortable state. And the people there's people that can't and there's people that can. And so I I just kind of wonder. You know, these you know, call them Zulu warriors. Our Navy seals are Green Berets, are our army rangers, Like these guys are kind of who we used to be. And I think push comes to shove. Like Ben, you probably have things where, you know, maybe you get cold, maybe you don't like the heat, maybe you don't like to exercise, maybe you don't like to fight. But I'll bet you a dollar if I come into your house to take your life, I'll bet you're going to find even if let's say you can't get to your guns and we have to do this with knives or by hands, I'll guarantee you you're going to fight harder than you thought possible. You know this, that's truly we are truly designed to be warriors. And so I wonder through all of this, if people that you know specialty diets, if they you know, people that you know drive electric cars, people that are get on a soapbox, even people that are into politics, things that really do not matter um into survival. They're not food, they're not shelter, they're not water. I really wonder where those people's minds have kind of floated in this, in this idea of things. And I think, for the first time ever I've thought this way in my whole life, that we could stem into a realm where people are going to have like we could have a massive die off of individuals. We could have a massive disruption in our infrastructure of delivered goods, in our electricity and then our communication, and if that happens in our banking. If that happens, um, we could end up in a very short period of time, let's call it less than on thirty days, we could revert back to almost tribal type living. I know that sounds super extreme, but if you take away a lot of these creature comforts for people and food and water and things aren't aren't coming any longer. Man alive. Well, I know if you think about this way too, you know when I when this is going on now in A big part of the conversation is whose job is it to handle this? The governor, the mayor, the president, the senator, the congressman. When something like this happens, you have to localize these issues, and so you know, to to thinking of like I need to rely on some far off government in Washington, DC that doesn't really know my issues, Like I just think that's that's part of the foolishness and all of this. And we just actually had um Dr Robert Jones on our podcast last week, and he's a vegan philosopher that teaches at a college and lives in Hollywood. And I asked him the same kind of questions I was asking you there. And his first first thing and this guy's you know, complete vegan is animal rights guy. Um him and I have a good relationship because we respect each other, but we don't We absolutely don't think the same way. We don't live our lives the same way. And he the first thing he said is self sufficiency. He was like, well, you know, my the bat the battery died in my car. And I immediately thought, well, I better learn how to change it. And and I just said, man, you're articulating exactly what we do when we go hunting. You know, that's like some some version, not it's not the whole reason, but there's some baked in version of what you're talking about where you know, we are warriors and there are there is a part of us. When when all that affluence and comfort goes away. Does the vegan diet make any sense if you're really hungry, I don't know, Probably not. It doesn't. Yeah, unless you're allergic to meat, and meat is going to hurt you in somewhere where If you say, hey, when I eat meat, my throat swells up and I have a tough time breathing. Okay, well we better find you some vegetables. Then I'm not saying you're a vegan, but but we better find you some blueberries. We better find you. If if we looked at this as if we're in a tribe of thirty people and one of our tribesmen, every time he ate meat from the animals we killed, he had issues, well, in reality, he'd probably die. But if we were a highly communicating troop, if we are highly um advanced, we would say, okay, um, you know, Bill needs vegetables. So while we are killing me like, we also have to gather you know, this level of stuff for for hindiat and obviously this is where survival of the fittest comes. This is where this stuff happens to animals daily, it happens to people occasionally, and it just happens to be happening on a global scale right now. You know, we I was reading some numbers yesterday for inadvertent. I wasn't doing research for anything, but I just happened to be reading a paper on on doing some research on just different things that are the flu and different things, and um, I think it. I think it's said forty thousand people die every month. I think forty people die every month from cigarette smoke. And aside from there being anti tobacco commercials, we don't even talk about it. You know, twenty some thousand Americans have died from coronavirus, and I know people have thrown around these numbers and said, oh, the flu kills more. You know, car accidents kill more, and I understand that, but I'm just saying, you know, people, the only one of the biggest difference with cigarettes is that people have to actively choose to smoke or unfortunately, some people are caught in a secondhand smoke situation and where their husband smokes or their wife smokes, or their parents smoke or whatever it is. But um, forty people a month, and we do this to ourselves and someone a biological agent, something that's invisible that we can't see, we can't ward off. Um, it becomes really scary. And this one's not even like this one's scary, but it's not even really that scary. Imagine if something came through the human population that there was no cure and it was nearly fatal. Yeah, I've been thinking about this too. I've been thinking about that too a lot. That's the thing I've been thinking about. Like, this is awful, but it doesn't mean we can't have like a deconstructed and kind of like put it in context as best we can. We don't really know much about it at this point. It'll, you know, it'll harden over time about what it actually is. But you know, it's hundreds of thousands of people across this planet have got this. It's killing It's killed tens of thousands of people, but it's also brought the global economy to a virtual stand still. It's crushing millions of businesses large and small. Um, it's putting tens of millions of people or possibly even hundreds of millions of people out of work. And just and like you just said, while it's it's incredibly infectious, it's not like a worse it's not even close to a worst case scenario virus. And so it just it just denotes to me how fragile this system is we have, um, how easily toppled it is. And I've been I've said that for years. So I've seen Hurricane Harvey in Texas, Hurricane Katrina, there was an F four tornado that came through the town that I lived in in Illinois. So I've seen things kind of shut down in different ways, and this is just another way. But it just kind of you know, I know, I'm sure you agree with this. It just shows you how fragile this thing we built is it really is it really isn't And and like you were just pointing out this, this isn't even really a bad one, you know. Like, um, and I know this is a hot topic and people talk about all the time, but I'm just using this as an outside example. I'm not professing that this is the way. UM. I'm not professing that this is going to happen or that this is even um possible. But if you look at like the the prions from like c W D, right, these elements that cause UM dear undulates to have a fatal disease. UM. You know, these things can if they're nearly one fatal or they are one fatal. They they can live through extreme cold, they can live through extreme heat. UM. They're relatively communicable through saliva and direct contact. And so you look at something like that traveling through the human population, something like that going through more for a mutation to become a zoonotic disease, meaning that people and animals can both get it and uh, and it could be absolutely devastating. I wish I had the study right in front of me so I could quote this uh intelligently. But I read some thing. I read about an equation that estimated the spread of disease amongst the human population, and they took liberties to tom assess this as though, um, there's no cure. It was um very communicable and it was fatal and if you gave it to a single individual, let's just call it on a train in China, if you gave it to a single individual and there's no antidote and it just spread naturally and people really didn't do social distancing, you know, there was no no change in informed, no change in lifestyle. The Earth's population would be reduced from nearly eight billion down to a couple of thousands of people within about ten days. Yeah, and so you just think of that at the doubling rate, and you think about, um, the things that are truly possible, and it's just it's much a weird time. It's such a weird time to think about. You know, people, I'm talking to friends, I'm talking to family members and they're like, you know everyone, it's we're small. We're a people of small talk, right, your friend of mine. But still when I bump in you at shot short a t A. You know, I don't call your text you every day. But um, certainly we're pleasant with one another. Certainly, if you invited me to go out and have dinner with you, I would, and hopefully vice versa. Um, we have lots of friends like that that that are casual or or um or you know, um uh, we're great distances of time passing between engagements. But um, my point is like you look at um, you look at kind of how we how we um how we engages people. We say, hey, how's the weather? Hey, Ben, how you doing? I'm doing good? You're busy, I'm super busy. We'll love to tell each other that we're busy, you know, and say, yeah, isn't it a weird time? It's a weird time. You know, I'm working from home, my wife got laid off. You know, we we we'd like to say that these things. I said it to two or three people today, you know, at the gas station, at the grocer store. Hey, how are you doing good? Yeah, weird time? Isn't it not so weird? And you know, but but um, but really it's it's for me and for maybe other hunters. My life hasn't changed all that much. I'm literally sitting in a cabin nearly by myself right now on a chunk of ten acres of woods. This is where our sick man to offices are. And the musician that that we work with, um Casey Olsen, he's in the basement scoring music right now for our new film, Um from a dact But you know, I'm gonna go Turkey hunting tomorrow. I'm gonna grab my bow and I'm gonna go turkey hunting tomorrow. I'm gonna grab my shop and I go Turkey hunting tomorrow. And and you probably are as well. And and then I have some writing to do for the new film and I'm I have to unfortunately write some stuff for Instagram and I just did. Uh. I just finished reading um Jack cars new book, Savage Son. You know, probably like many hunters are reading right now. So like, you know, like my life hasn't changed all that much other than you know, there's no traffic and when I go to the grocery store, you know, there's not a ton of people, and um, but yeah, it's it's It is just very interesting that I think about what about the person that is And I'm not I'm not making fun of anyone, but what about the person that you know, he wears Designers suits every day, He drives a Ferrari, He works on Wall Street, you know, lives in a big, fancy sky riyes apartment. Every time he's waiting on the street corner to go to a coffee shop or restaurant, he's waiting with seventy other people across the street, Like, I wonder the people that have completely pushed past who we really were as a people. I wonder if those people that have just like you know, Hollywood starlets, if you will, are people that are completely disconnected to the to the outdoors in a wild world. I wonder what, um, what what they're feeling like right now, what they're going through. It's it's it's a weird. I mean, there's so many things too to kind of branch off to with those thoughts. I mean, I I know I have, you know, a couple of friends I want to mention their names. I don't mind what if I did, But that have that are you know, rich, maybe a little famous like that, have resources and they're getting tests for their friends in there, you know, everybody that's around them. They just you know, spend the money and get the tests where I don't know where they get them from, and I'm not gonna ask, and I'm not judging them for doing that, but it does you know, this this thing kind of sets up a natural order of things like who has the most resources and who who is the most uh efficient with those resources? And it sets up this this thing that we would again I feel like it's kind of a bridge. This isn't you know, this isn't a end of Times event, it's not the apocalypse, but it kind of has little elements of it that start to set up what it might start to look like if that did happen. Because our our world is kind of shut down. It's still running, but it's running on fumes, and so we can kind of look across the bridge and see what an apocalyptic situation might look like. Who gets saved, who gets trampled, who you know, who can survive, who might not. I mean, I don't know if you agree with that, but I find myself kind of saying, like, this is just it's just a gentle enough crisis that it has elements of true apocalyptic um notions, but it's not that um. But it has all the ingredients, right, Yeah, I mean, it does have all the ingredients, and and it's so that's what makes it interesting. And I don't know what you think, but sometimes I feel a little bit guilty about how my life is pretty great right now, Like I I've set it up in such a way that maybe it was it was set up for this, but it wasn't intentional. I didn't say like, hey, if we set our lives up this way, we'll be okay in a pandemic. But um, we certainly are. And I've talked to a lot of people that aren't. So I don't know how you do you think about that, because I know, I know you're doing just fine. Yeah, And that's why it's the same way I don't. Um, it's the same way. I've seen people that I know that are very affluent and and same thing. You know they're there. You know, there's I don't know. I don't know the science behind this, so I can't speak to it, but you know, there's people are talking. And I don't watch TV and I don't watch the news. So even if even if you told me today what's going on, you know, and I had somebody today asked me about what's going on with elections, and I have no idea and and um, and so I you know, I I just don't know all the hot topics that are going around that have to do with COVID nineteen and but I completely agree with you, um that this has the ingredients of what the arm A getting might look like. And and unfortunate, unfortunately, I think it's pretty cool. You see all these people staying at home, you know, are you know, are higher ups, whether they're right or wrong, have kind of come out and said, hey, everyone, we want to slow the curve. Everyone wants to talk about it, and and uh so, let's let's have social distancing. And it's pretty remarkable that we've all done it. It's pretty remarkable that for the most part, people are doing it. And then and then on the on the negative side of things, to see people really panic and to see them hoarding toilet paper and hoarding other things really is indicative of you know, you might mow your lan. I'm a milon. We say hello when we pass one another. You know, we are semi cordial. But some of these people, like it really seems so shortsighted that you would go to a store and hoard things to try to make sure that you have yours and no one else gets there's and I and and I said this to a friend of mine and and um, and she was laughing, and I wasn't being all that facetious, but and and I apologize, Ben if if this offends you or any of your listeners, I don't think it's going to offend you, but multiple times on my journeys, and I'm gonna call it hundreds of times, I have wiped my butt with rocks and you know, and I heard I was laughing because I was listening to Andy Stump talked to this about Rogan and he was like, I heard him say something like people, I'm an a b CeAl or whatever he was saying, and he was basically saying like, there are things that you need to survive. There are things that you need to do on a really bad day. There are things that you need to do to protect your family and and provide for your family. But I assure you, toilet paper has never saved anyone's life. And it's just so ridiculous. And and when I heard about people buying toilet paper, I was dismissing it because I wasn't watching the news, so I was friends of mine were telling me like, hey, do you have enough toilet paper? I'm like, I don't know, and they're like, well, you gotta all get something. It's all going away. And I said, man, I'll go out in the yard and I'll wipe my butt with my hand and I'll rinse it off with a hose. I could care less if I have to do that. And I said to this a friend of mine one time, I said, I'm wipe my hundreds of times with rocks, and she said, you're kidding me. I said no. I said, I even have a little method of how I do it, where I, you know, take a rock and do the first one throw it. We'll have another rock. And as you progress from the beginning to end, you go from a rough rock to smoother rocks. And I said, you'd be surprised. And how it can clean you can get when and you know, like because there's times when we've run out of toilet paper. There's times where we forgot toilet paper. There's times where our toilet paper got soaking wet because it was in the wrong pocket and somebody didn't do their job very much, could have been me and didn't put the toilet paper inside of a seat, a summit bag or a coo you bag, or a or a ziploc bag. And so there's all sorts of things and that happened in the bush that make you have to kind of cut corners. But yeah, my life hasn't changed that much. I'm very sad for we have had some you know, we want. We own a production company called Sick Manta. We've had some shoots get canceled, so it's it's hurt our bottom line in that regard, but that's just business. Some sometimes that happens for no reason that all we've had shoots get canceled, So we can't blame that entirely on on COVID nineteen. But yeah, I think it's I think it's interesting and and I've heard people trying to put saunas, people that are affluent that I know they're trying to put saunas in their houses because they heard that taking saunas every day is going to help, and and I'm sure it would. I'm saunas are pretty healthy regardless. I'm not saying it's gonna kill COVID nineteen. But you know what I'm talking about. People are talking about vitamin therapies and and taking cold showers and hot baths and all these different things that are people are trying to better themselves. But really, for me, and I've talked about this to a few people, but having that presence like you kind of just spoke about that presence, that mindfulness, like it's I think it's really sad that people are looking out for themselves and people. I read something read something somewhere where going a gun owner said, and I'm sure you probably read it too because on social media, but he said something like, how funny I see my anti gun neighbor stockpiling a bunch of goods in his garage. I'll just go over there later after he gets it all full. I'll just go over there later with my gun and take it all. And I just I know you think that's disgusting. I don't even have to ask your opinion, but it's just like I would much rather get my gun set up to defend some sort of enemy, whether that be foreign or domestic, and get my toilet paper to my neighbors, get my food to my neighbors, get my food to my family two people that need it, to your family. I would much rather suffer burn and die than to have one of my neighbors or a perfect stranger even go through that. I would much rather shake their hand, looked him in the eye, and say, hey, I've got this, let's get you taken care of. To me, that is far more uh interesting, That is far are more the element of how I want to live my life then going to the grocery store and stalking up on toilet paper. All the things we're talking about are are true that you know, I find comfort in a full freezer and a full gun safe. I do. But I've been very careful, trying to be very careful. I speak a lot into a microphone, so you never really know, but I've been trying to be very careful not to flaunt that to other people as if it makes me better than them somehow or stronger than them somehow. I I feel exactly how you feel. And in terms of like, hey man, I do this. This is I don't knit my own clothes. Maybe you knit your own clothes. Maybe you, you know, have another way to be self sufficient that I don't know. So let's trade those things, you know, Like that's that's where how you're gonna get somewhere and build a community. And maybe, you know, maybe this thing ends up being a positive at the end of the day, because we can start to understand how important our neighbors are and people that live within direct, you know, close proximity to us, how important they are and how helpful they can be. Because I don't, you know, I've lived in a lot of places and and a lot of places I've lived. Your neighbors barely can be bothered to wave at you. Um, it's not that way where I live now, but it's it's been that way, I would say, the bulk of places where I've lived over my life, and I've I've moved around quite a bit. So it's just I just wonder, you know, what kind of positive things came in glean from this and in the bigger I guess the bigger question that I know you'll have, just given your background, you'll have some thoughts on It's like, how does this You know, this kind of thing came from that zoologic like it came from nature in a way, or at least our interaction with nature. Oh there's yeah, there's no not even in a way. This is nature, Ben, this is exactly how it's designed to be to move through. Yeah, and I've had um and this is silly. I did not do this. I have not done this on any level. But I had a couple of people reach out to me, maybe ten or twenty people reach out and said, oh my word, you predicted this because I would say things on podcast or I'd say things in doing interviews with people, and I would say, you know, this is Mother Nature is going to reach up and and take you know, this is anthropomorphizing uh an idea, but she's going to reach up and take back what is hers. Let's call it the earth. And so these are this is how recycling works. And so you know, I haven't predicted anything. The fact of the matter is, since I started my education at the university, and since I started talking to biologists and talking to um UH medical doctors and talking to zoologists and and people that really understood how populations ebb and flow. You know, I used to work for an amazing ecologist um named Dr David Smith at the University of Minnesota, and he you know, these these things not only not only is this mother Nature, this is literally how it's designed to work. We are a population of animals. We are we are a ball of rock and water that is warmed by the sun. We rotate around the sun. It's really that simple plants and animals grow on the face of this thing. We as people, because we have complex brains and because we have opposable thumbs, we have developed borders in which we defend them with guns and we and we um overthrow other societies, and we fight for goods and we UM and we have trading policies, and we now have politics, and we we as a species has um both evolved from what we were from from grade apes into UM what we are as a people right now. And then and then we from the fact that we have complex brains and opposable thumbs, we have developed this infrastructure of travel, this andra structure of communication, of of wherewithal and politics and UM technical weapons and technical UM technical devices. I mean, look at what we're doing right now, Ben, Look at the conversation that you and I are having right now. I'm looking at a little spot on a map where you are. You're looking a little spot on a map where I am, and we're both talking into microphones. It's pretty it's pretty sensational. But I think that, um, you know, we have almost eight billion people on the face of the earth. At some point, something is going to happen that is going to travel through that population of people and wipe us out. And I mean entirely. I don't mean COVID nineteen. I mean with entirety. Now, it's not that often that a population gets wiped out, wiped out there's this idea of you know, we um viruses mutate, bacteria's mutate, they become they become resistance. People will also mute. Take right if if if there is an ailment, let's call it, you know whatever, call it whatever you want. Just you know, if there was a virus that that ran through the human population and killed the people on Earth, the ten percent remaining were either a mutation of a previous human that is resistant to that virus that just rolled through the population, or they contracted the virus and for whatever reason became symptomatic, developed antibodies and continued living. So that population of people, let's say it's down to people, that population of people will start repopulating the earth. And it's this idea. I've said it before. It's called differential reproductive success. Those people a survival of the fittest. Those are the people that survived, They are the most fit for that situation. They start procreating, creating children that are also resistant, maybe even more resistant than their parents. As the populations continue, and you know, there's a um there are animals that do this in the wild. You know, there are there are snakes that are resistant to poison, and so they eat animals, frogs, lizards that are super poisonous. They'll eat these things and and uh and the lids through the poison. But then the next population of of prey ups their poison level and thus killing a few snakes. But then a couple of snakes eat those animals and get very, very sick, but survive. Then their offspring is even more resistant. Well that's how we as people. That's what we're going to start experiencing more and more because we're starting to achieve carrying capacity on the face of the earth. I said this to Rogan. I think I said this to Rogan, and he kind of he was like, now, because I said, it's a scary thing to think of that. It's it's a hard it's a hard intellectual herd will get over it is it is. And people we like to think that we are people. We like to think that animals are animals. We like to you know, we buy deer licenses, we go hunting, we shoot deer. We're hunters. They're the prey. How could we possibly be in the same class of animals that they are. But the fact of the matter is we are animals, and no matter how complex we are, if this element rolls through our population, um, it's going to respond very much like it is right now. And and um, this is the natural order of things. Now that the the piece of this that is unnatural is how closely we are um to one another. We don't have geographical borders anymore. Barriers we don't have We don't live on different continents now to where we can't get to the other content. You know, if something if something went through Africa and just wipe Africa out, but we weren't sailing between continents, certainly not flying, but we weren't even sailing between continents. Whatever wiped out Africa would stay in Africa, and that population that subset pope lation that was left over would be resilient to whatever that was and it would start repopulating the continent with with um another another form of human that is mutated to handle that disease or virus. But it wouldn't come to North America or South America until you know, something here mutated. So but the way we travel right now, UM, it's something scary really comes down the pike, we're going to experience it. Yeah, there's there's a bunch of things in that but if you would, just if you would just start at because I think there's an idea that's interesting to explore in this. There's I think there's a lot of if you read a lot of there's influential thinkers that believed, and there's people to this day they believe, like the coronavirus style event like this, that through technology and progress and innovation and science and data, that we could overpower nature, right so, or we can kind of harness nature to do our bidding. There's like a there's a there's a strange and probably overly fillosophical discussion in there, but it goes back to you know, the seventeenth century. Um, there's a lot of this idea when you read like the card and and I read this in an article the other day where he says, you know, we can render ourselves the masters and possessions of nature, like we if if we only can progress far enough, we'll have control over this natural world, will be able to kind of shape it in our own, our own way. And I think what we're talking about here is that you know, maybe, but you know, checkmate, when when the natural world decides to take it back? Yeah, yeah, I mean check like like you tell me, tell me, tell me how how much technology helps you with an F five tornado? Yeah, you know, and and um and something like this, like it is. We are very technically advanced, right, Look at we're talking about creating a vaccine to COVID nineteen in a couple of years. That to my knowledge, vaccines are amazing. It drives me nuts that vaccines have got a bad reputation over the years, because vaccines are amazing, and most of the bad reputation that have uh followed vaccines is basically wives tales in my opinion. And so the fact that these guys can even talk about creating a vaccine in a couple of years is astonishing to me. But so that is fantastic, right, that is going to face this strain of a virus head on. But you know that there's there's going to be something else that comes. It's just a natural way. It's not I don't wanna, I don't wanna. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole that's gonna get me in trouble. But it's, um, this is this is just the natural world. It isn't It isn't good, It isn't bad. This isn't punishment or reward. This isn't you know. Some people might say, um, we're overpopulated and so we have to kill a bunch of people like we you know, and that's that's not what this is. This is just what happened to a population, um. And and sometimes these things can result in and be devastating, and sometimes they just burned through like a wildfire and then everything starts to re grow behind it. And that's basically that's basically how I look at this stuff. But we have the we have the technology to create a vaccines, so we can ward it off and we can fight against it, and we can move past as a population. But really something else is going to come down the pike. I think this is a good time. Um. I've heard people talking about that they've really had to really enjoyed the quiet time with their families, and that they've really enjoyed some um closeness with their neighbors in just the regard of you know, waving, waving to one another and just having a sense of community even from a short distance. And because these are people that these are usually the people that were passing on the freeway and when we're going to our jobs. But now we finally their home were homes were able to wave and have these discussions even from afar, And so I think that's really remarkable in that regard. Um. But I I think this is a fantastic time to think about presence and mindfulness. This is a fantastic time to think about, like you said, like your life, like you've inadvertently set your life up to be very successful in this type of response. And I think that's really just probably true to your interests and my interests. You know, we enjoy hunting. We have freezers full of game. We enjoy um forging in the forest so we can find some fun food to eat. We enjoy being outside. So like tomorrow morning, I'm going turkey hunting it tomorrow morning. When the sun starts coming up and I start hearing Tom's gobbling on tree tops, I might as well have won the lottery. I'm not doing it to social distance myself. I'm not doing it to say, hey, I'm gonna go out in the woods tomorrow because I really I can't go to the store, can't go to the movie theater. You know, I'm sick of watching TV. I'm just gonna go outside No, this is what I do, whether there's a camera with me or not. And tomorrow morning, when those birds start firing off, even if they don't, even if there isn't a turkey within ten miles, and I just have to listen to songbirds and and watch deer come out in the morning, I'm gonna feel like I won the lottery. And I think that's really for people get to that point or realize that point, or maybe take a step back from this and say, Okay, maybe my maybe my best day doesn't come from a speedboat, do you know what I mean? Maybe maybe there's something else here that's right at my fingertips that I can do that I really makes me really enjoy life. Um, that I can do even in a scenario such as this. Yeah, that's a great way to articulate. I mean I did. I'm doing the same day tomorrow all day, and I was doing it yesterday yesterday evening, and there was sandhill cranes walking through this field, red wing blackbirds flying overhead, there was some turkeys around, it was snow, and there was deer walking around, and I was just thinking, and I've tried articulates, I think on the show before and I definitely try to articulate this to my wife, and I don't think I do it right. So maybe I don't think I quite get it out there right way. And because it's a hard thing to say, I told her the other day, I said, I look that. I think the reason why I was drawn to live in a place like Montana is because I could look. I could visually see the representation of like of joy. When I look at the mountains, I I know what's over there, and I know what it means to me, and it doesn't nothing else has to happen except my ability to access it. And that's why I'm a big component of public lands, is because I've lived in places where there aren't public lands, and I now live in a place where there are millions of acres of place I could spend the rest of my life and not touched them all. And so it's like that idea that what you just described is available to me at any time, whether I'm hunting or just want to go watch some birds um or make a fire and watch some birds. But my three year old, I mean, that's there, and so there's this like place I know that's there, So it makes me comfortable. It allows me to be happy and when times get tough, because I know there's this like, there's this joy right over there hanging around those mountains, and all I gotta do is find the time to go and explore it, and so that it's like a comfort blanket in a weird way for me. You know. I know that's probably overly philosophical for just explaining why you love you go outside, but it is this kind of this time does denote that right when we're turkey hunting, it doesn't matter if there's a pandemic on or if if something's going on in town. You know, if a business is shut down, you're just out there doing it. And to have that in your life is an important thing. Um and especially to have that divorce from our society other than the fact that they need to allow us to access it, that's pretty great. Yeah, And that's and that's exactly. And I know people like to say it like you're being overly philosophical, but really that's it. Really. If you if you if you take any time at all to think about it, you take any time at all to really think about who you are and what you really want, what would you do what what would you do if you're on this earth by yourself? Well, what really would you be doing if you're here all alone? And and um, I just think it's it's I think it's very very important. And I think a lot of people, potentially a lot of people struggle with that question of Um, are they doing what they really enjoy doing? Are they chasing something that their friends are chasing? Are they chasing something that their spouses chasing? Do they not? You know, I've met people, Um, I've met people that you know, I have a couple of buddies. I have a couple of buddies that all they do is hunt white tail deer. They don't fish, they don't hunt ducks, they don't hunt elk, they don't want to hunt all sheep. These guys hunt white tail deer. If I gave them a free stone cheep hunt. If I said, hey, you guys, I want a stone chep hunt and I can't go, Do you guys want to go? And be like no, no thanks, man like, and I can tell them, hey, it's a very expensive hunt. Yeah that's cool. Yeah, find find someone else. I we like to you know, we're hunting deer at that time, or whatever it is like, and I am these guys because I like it all. You know, I'm a I'm a birder, I'm a turkey hunter. I'm a fly fisherman. I'm a bass fisherman. I'm a mouskie fisherman. I'd like, you know, stopping and looking at insects. I like doing habitat work. So I'm guilty of it all. And thus I kind of, you know, bounce around inside a bounce around outside, kind of like a kid in a in a fun house and looking at all the mirrors at a at a carnival, and and I don't know what to look at or to go do next, because I want to do it all. And I I have a couple of buddies that all they do is fish bass. That's it. No wallees, no muskies, no salt water, they don't fly fish. It is just bass all the time, full time. And I kind of envy that. But then I have a group of friends also that I've asked, like, so what, you know, what are you into? They do different things. They'll go to parties, they'll go out to dinner, or they do some cooking things like that. But I ask them, like you know, what are you into? You know, what are your hobbies? And they can't even they can't even articulate what a hobby might be. You know, I'd say, well, do you do you like boats? Well? Yeah, you know, yeah, I like to I like to go out on the water. And what do you do you you know, do you like hunting? Well, I don't really like being cold? Okay, well do you like video games? So I've you know, I've played video games a little bit. And you're like, they can't, like there's nothing that's really like burns them, you know. And and so I kind of feel sorry for people like that, but you're exactly right, you call it. I've received a few letters over the years, not many, maybe maybe five, maybe ten, where guys are like, hey, man, stop with all the fancy talk. Uh, don't waste your time writing with all these fancy words. I don't know why you have to be so philosophical or you have to be so so deep, like just hunt, you know. And and I could care less what they have to say, because when I'm sitting there on the ground in the morning and I see an American red start come and land on a uh, you know, a hickory bush in front of me and sit there and spread his wings out and do his little song and dance then flitterr off Like that is going to make my day. That is really honestly going to move me. There's not gonna make a camera there. I'm not being filmed tomorrow morning. I'm not. I don't have a photographer. It's gonna be me sitting there against a tree with with prickly ash all around me. And and I got a couple of big oak trees, and I know some tom's have been using and and I'm gonna go in there and and to me, that's literally everything. Like if I think about, what would you do, Ben, if you're here by yourself, or what would you do? Honestly, Ben, what would you do if you were a billionaire? What would you do if you're if you're a billionaire, what would you do? Hunt? Hunt way more? Yeah? So so you you would buy more land. You you would do the exact same thing I would. You would buy more land. You would take more of your friends to go do things that you've maybe seen and want them to see, because that's fun to do that. And you would I don't know, I mean maybe you have. You know, maybe deep down inside you want to own a Lamborghini or something like that that I don't know, But like what I would do is I would buy land, and I would probably buy some of my buddies land. Like I can't imagine the curse, and I call it a curse, but I can't imagine the curse of being as bright as as Jeff Bezos and as you know, Bill Gates and these guys that are just mega, mega wealthy. That has got to be like you're indebted to society. People really look at you from everything from jobs to donations to philanthropy to tell us the next big idea, where's the where's the economy going? Help us what it's going on with disease? How do we find cures? Can you please pay for this? Like the responsibility has got to be absolutely tremendous, But like I I don't know. I I get to the point, I don't know how much money I would need to live my quote unquote dream life, because I feel like I'm living it right now to an extent, I would definitely do things like I don't live on a five thousand acre farm. If I had that kind of money, I would live on a five dollarsand acre farm, right and so um. But that's why I think about, like what you would do if you're a billionaire, what would you do if you were here by yourself? Because I'm doing it because I want to do it. Well, that's it right there. There's the thing that those of us that are kind of in the And that's why I think when you say about you know, casual friends or acquaintances, that that we all kind of think. And I see this because I interview people, you know, weekly, if not daily at some point, and everybody seems to have that same especially in this quarantine. I've learned it um same comfort level. They have that same knowledge that you know they know and I imagine somebody that loves to play piano might feel this too, But they know the thing that kind of brings them, um, the ultimate happiness or at least gives them fulfilledness. And once you know what that is, then you all you want to do is chase that thing. You know, all you wanna do is go running after that that feeling, and all the money you'd ever earned would just be too would be applied there in you know, you would just be taking that money and throwing it at that thing. You know that we'll bring you that ultimate fulfillment. So it's good and it's good to have that, you know absolutely you think like you know rock climbers, you know, or like that's a perfect example of being a pianist. Like that guy what a joy. His fingertips can bring him everything that he wants or more. You know, he can find uh solstice in just playing that music and hearing that music, you know, like in the um in that um Stephen I think it is Stephen King shaw Shank redemption was at him? Was that Stephen King? Either way, it's a great yeah yeah yeah um anyway, Um when when when the one prisoner um Andy Defrane is in in the hole, you know, and he had for playing Mozart over the over the award and speakers, and you know when he got out, his his buddies were like how how terrible is that? He's like, oh, it wasn't that bad. I had Mozart with me, you know, And those guys are kind of like, what do you mean they let someone You had someone with you And he's like, no, it's in my mind is you know, they can't take that away? And it's that's kind of what I'm talking about, is that having that, you know, being that penist, being able to play your music for you and to pour yourself into learning more music and playing music. And you know, you think about rock climbers, right, rock climbers always get always get and skiers they always get kind of earmarked of like, yeah, I'm just a rock climbing bomb. I live in a van and I eat peanut butter and jelly. Well it's not because they're poor, it's because they're rich. It's because all they need is a down sleeping bag, a few pieces of if you all, or even clothing or PATAGONI your clothing, uh, peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a rock wall with their ropes and anchors. And if you're Alex Hannelley, you don't even need that. And if you're free soloing and so like you, you think of these things like these these guys, the ones that appear to be bums, the surfers that sleep on the beach or in a little tent, fly fisherman, that these guys that are just you know, camping next to the river l it's just because that's all they need you know, we're capable of of fantastic good, and we're capable of fantastic bad. And so I think just does give us a little heads up, um, and the ability to adjust. And I wonder I've heard experts say that we won't go back. Um. I read this the other day that somebody was surmising that we won't go back to restaurants. We won't go back to shaking hands and giving hugs and kisses. We won't. You know, movie theaters will never be the same, concerts will never be the same, you know. And and um, I just three. I think I think people will forget about this relatively quickly, and we'll fall, We'll get we'll fall right back into um that false, false sense of security, that lull of security and saying and going back to feeling somewhat invincible. But um, I think the people that are going through it right now, well maybe the ones with presents, the ones that have wherewithal will think about this in much the way that your grandmother or great grandmother. You know you, I'd be shocked if you didn't say this yourself at one point in your life where where someone says, man, you ben your grandmother has eight frying pans, and you say, I know she won't throw anything out. You know, she lives with a Great depression, and and you know she'll find a use for every one of those frying pans. And if it comes to it, she'll give a frying pan to a neighbor. And and like, you know, she's saving that old bicycle because if she takes the front wheel off that bicycle, that makes that bicycle functional or whatever it may be. It's we find ourselves saying, oh, yeah, my great grandmother lived during the Great Depression, so you know she saves all those things. And because back then they had to make use of all those things. And the more of that stuff that you had, the more you're able to sidestep and adapt to either make something run or to get transportation or food or to cultivate food, whatever it may be. So I think the people that are impacted this on the front lines, that people that see this, taste this, smell this. Maybe the people that are in New York City, Um, maybe the people that are in northern Italy, like the people that have seen, um, the blood and guts of this, of this virus, of this pandemic will go forward in life with a different perspective. And some of that I think is this is gonna sound terrible. I don't know how to say this without it sounding terrible. But this is sometimes a bit of a reward, um, a bit of a uh you know, kind of a pre check me, a slap in the face. You've been punched now, so now you can wake up. Your your cheek is stinging, your teeth are loose, you're nervous, You've you're in pain, like you can you now have ultimate presence. You are you've entered into your parasympathetic nervous system. You are wide awake. And so I think, um, some of this stuff is kind of good. I I um to give you a point of this. I went and spoke with a young man last year, last winter, I think it was, and he's a burn victim, and um, I went and sat in his I didn't want to go see him. I didn't. I didn't want to go visit him. If I'm being honest, I was nervous about it. I wasn't sure what I was gonna say to him. He's already burnt up pretty bad, and so I was like, I don't you know, he's gonna be bandaged up and I'm gonna be sitting there, and he he kind of wanted to meet me and and um, just have a day of it. And I went over there, and as soon as the walls kind of came down and I was able to spend um time with him, I spent the whole afternoon with him, and I loved it. I love talking to him, and I love talked to his family, and and I said something to him towards the end of our time together. I said, man, you're you're so lucky that you got burned. And I saw his mom just snapped her head across the room, and I saw his dad, you know, he kind of he kind of looked at me a little bit. But then I saw I saw the emotion on his dad's face. Almost instantly he kind of got it. And his mom was looking at me very concerned, like I was gonna say something stupid. And I said, you're super lucky, and he looked at me puzzled. I said, man, like, now everything in your life is going to be measured against having your entire body burned. You already know what it's like to have a horrible day, So like everything else in your life. Pizza is gonna taste better, you know, the desserts are gonna taste better. You're a walk with your girlfriend is gonna be better. The sunrise, a turkey gobble, he's a hunter um on your next elk bugle, like, these things are going to be better. Driving a car again when you can in the springtime, roll the windows down, turn the radio up, and go fast on the back country road in your car. These things are going to be better, and they're probably going to lessen over time, because you're you getting burned is going to diminish in your mind. You're gonna kind of forget the pain that you went through. You're gonna forget the hardship that you went through. But it should always be there to kind of remind you of what a bad day is like. And that's kind of what I mean when we talk about people that are sitting on the front lines of this or even anything else. Right, we we we achieve tragedy every day as a people. We see horrible things with animals, we see horrible things with people. Weather events. You know, people in people in Kansas don't deserve to have an F five tornado rip through their town and babies lose their lives and grandpa's lose their lives, and like these are this is real tragedy, eat, but it also gives us an opportunity to grow. And it also gives us an opportunity to lend a hand to people that that either can't fight for themselves or or can't maybe find their way exactly right now. And so I think there are silver linings to things like this, oh for sure, man, And I I'm glad you brought up that, like the our grandparents generation. We were talking about this the other day. I think I was talking to guy Nike Eastman about this on the show and exactly that. And they think we always say, oh, man, that's just that generation. They worked that hard, they understood loss, they knew why each morning they had to get up at four in the morning and worked till eight o'clock. They were built differently. And the point you make is great, man, it's it's very well stated, and that they were molded into that by incredible hardship. They were molded into kind of a different type of human even in a lot of ways, at least the ones that succeeded and got got out of there and with some success. You know, my grandfather was very much that way. He worked and that's what he did, and he knew if he worked hard enough, he could make a good life. But there was no good life without hard work. And um, that's because he came from that era and he knew what it was like, you know. So maybe maybe we can use this is this is a seminal moment like that to say we know what we have to do to be better than the next pandemic. Um So, and that's that's incredibly well put on your part. I think it if anybody could take anything from from you or from listening to this man, that's that's that Hopefully that can you know, really put this into perspective because I think at some level that's what we're all searching for, just like perspective, what's going on here, what's going on in your life? How do you think we can make this better? Because there's this void of of and that there just isn't enough facts and data out there, and this has created a void of confusion and and we're gonna fill that with something. Yeah. Absolutely, it's it's um, it's we can't live our lives. We cannot live our lives like this is our last day on earth. But we have to try to get as close to that as possible. And when bad things happen, that's we gets us a little bit closer to that. We're able to um celebrate little things a little bit more. And and tomorrow morning, you're going turkey hunting. Tomorrow morning, I'm going turkey hunting. Um. If we were able to face these tomorrow as it's our last, if somebody said you said, hey, hey, Ben, you know, God forbid this is you know, obviously knock on what. Hopefully this none of this happens to any of us. But you know, let's just say, if let's just say somebody was able to come to you Ben and say, hey, yeah, tomorrow afternoon, when you're on your way home from turkey hunt, you're gonna fall asleep with the wheel across the center line, and that's gonna be the end of your life. But you still have to go about your time. You still have to take from this moment forward, all the way through the turkey hunt, all the way up to you know you're going to lose your life, Well, you would harness each and every second of that turkey hunt. You know, you can't live that way. That's it's impossible to have that level of presence for that length of time. But you can keep reminding yourself much like you take active deep breaths. Right that the people that truly know about how we should move our bodies and how we should train for fitness, and how we should train our minds and books we should read, the people that really know how to get the most from their bodies, say stop mindless breathing. Stop just breathing, shallow breathing to get you through your day. Stop multiple times throughout the day and take multiple deep breaths as deep as you can pull in, as deep as you can push out. Take some mindful breaths. Fill your lungs, if invigorate your red blood cells, your hemoglobin with oxygen, get your cells flown, get your body flowing. It's kind of like that. Like if you can do that a few times a day and really um shock your body, really fire your body up, that's an amazing thing. So it's just the same thing. I'm not gonna hunt turkeys tomorrow like it's my last turkey hunt. I'm gonna try damn hard to think about it multiple times throughout the morning and the afternoon. Now that I know that you're going turkey hunting, I'll bet you a million dollars Tomorrow morning, when I'm sitting there at five am and the pitch black, I'm gonna be thinking about I wonder if Ben's out. I wanna you know you're you're you're an hour off of the mountain time. But I'm gonna say, you know, when it's when it's six am my time and I'm just getting ready to to look at birds, or maybe even I'm already done, You're gonna be just beginning your morning of of being out there. And so you know, I'm gonna think about this now. I promise you. It's not that you and I are best friends. Were not, But i will think about you tomorrow morning cause I'll wonder what you're seeing. I wonder what the temperature is gonna be by you. This is just how my mind works, and and um, and I'll be hoping for you to have success. I really will. Like this is you know, I think about these things. But that's to me, that's the trick is trying to figure out, um, how you go through your day two live it as though it is your last it's impossible, like I said, but when when bad things happen, it gives us an opportunity to see the good and it gives us an opportunity to to better ourselves. Yeah yeah, man, that's it's so beautifully put in. Like you know, we're not anywhere close with each other right now, many states away, but I like I could feel the energy that you put into this, man, Like I could feel like I know everybody listening I will feel the same way. It's like it's there's certain people that are inspiration for their ideas, but man, like you're that. But also the energy that like the way you speak about this and the cadence is your voice even trying to describe what it is to be outside, like it's inescapable to me that you have this like immense complete love for this stuff, um, and it comes through. So I'm glad. I'm glad we can have this conversation so people can see, um, whether they get just a little you know, your films are have been been renowned in our industry and and but they're just like little snippets of who you are. And so with social media, it's little snippets of who you are. But I think, um, a lot of like what I appreciate about you came out just now, Like the the amount of just incessant energy you put into this stuff is unreal and it's frankly inspiring. So thank you. I appreciate that. Ben appreciate that very much. Yeah, well, thanks for thanks for coming and spending an hour with us. I will, um, we should be texting tomorrow in the morning because I'll be thinking about you now too, and and all the crazy success and failure. I've got my butt kicked a couple of days already, Bye bye Turkey, so I have all that pent up energy I have. I've been hunting in the snow and uh it's it's less than inspiring to walk out a half mile over crunchy snow and it just yeah, it drives you. It drives you a little bit nuts to think that you're learning everything in in earshot. So um, but absolutely, man. Yeah, let's uh, let's stay in contact tomorrow morning and see and see what we can figure out, all right, brother, Well, it's great to spend time with you. Man. Um. I hope you guys are continuously happy, healthy over there, and and I can't wait to see that big time. You kill in the morning anytime, then, I really appreciate it. I really really do. I know, I know all your guests say that, but I really do appreciate you guys having the ideas to have me on and to give me an opportunity to talk. It's really special to me. It's not it's not ever lost on on on the elements that you guys do, all the different podcasts you guys do. I know you're very busy, and I just appreciate that occasionally my name pops up. It's awesome. Man. I wish we had above three more hours to go. But Phil, our engine our engineers telling me we're running out of our Squadcast minutes. It's like he just texted Me's like, oh, we have so many minutes on our programs. Squadcast, not a sponsor. We need more minutes. We need minutes, all right, dude. I really appreciate it. Thanks Ben. So that's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you Phil for surprising us and delighting us with your crapping in the wood story. Buddy, I really appreciate that. Of course. Anytime. Well, I mean, I'm not gonna crap in the Woods anytime, but I'll try to surprise you anytime I need I needed it. I needed it, I needed it. Um. A great conversation with Donnie Vincent. Another thing that was was energizing for me. As I said at the end of the interview there, like Donnie has a lot of things, but one the one thing that I found over or chatting with him and spending a little time with him and kind of having similar prassions to him, It's like he's gen He has energy, like you can feel it. It comes off the guy. Um, you know, and he hasn't a great mind for conservation and great mind for wildlife. Um. And I'm so I'm glad that he's willing to come on and chat with us. So thank you Donnie for for doing that. Thank you to Mark Kenyon of Wired to Hunt back forty make sure to check Mark out at wired to Hunt and over there just Wired Hunt podcasts. You're not listening to that you ought to be And um, Phil you know, as as is uh kind of the way we do things here, we're changing it up a little bit. Um, We're gonna take out you know. There's like a moment before the music comes on where I where you and I kind of explain what's about to happen. I felt that was a little bit redundant in all honesty, and so we're gonna remove it. But we got these new ads that are playing before the show, and so I just want you guys to know what you're listening to. And that's just just that you're gonna hear a couple of ads what we call pre roll See that's an industry term. Phil just rolling in there for the listener, what we call pre roll ad. You're really revealing the secrets. Podcasting is complicated. UM. And then it's gonna get ready into the music. And one thing we have to say, Old number seven is the music that we've had for going on a year now. We took out the words. I don't know. I think we took out of the words because I I on a whim, I said let's take out the words. UM. On a similar whim, I'm gonna tell Phil now to put them back in. So put them back in, Phil, we want the words back. UM. So you're getting those of you who wrote in and asked where the words win or why the song changed, you're getting them back because I just I this is how I work. I make decisions on whims and and everybody has to deal with it, right Philip, Yeah, that's that's right. I mean it's a lot. It's a lot of fun dealing with your whims, is it? Uh huh. I'm detecting a bit of sarcasm everybody. Well, thanks for sitting through poop stories again, Dysectomy stories, Ticks and Weird Places, and the insights of Donny Vincent. Another good episode next week. Jesse Griffiths. Jesse Griffiths is down in Austin Tech this He's a restaurant tour um. He sources all the food from his restaurant and eatery died do A, from local merchants, from local farmers, from local sources. So he has a unique perspective on the COVID crisis, on running a restaurant in this time, and what it means to get your food from your community, from your region rather than elsewhere. So I looking forward to that. He will also talk about Turkey recipes and we talk about we have a you'll like this field, We have a great p debate. His culinary expert, Jesse Griffith loves a nice p Oh good. I'm glad, and I believe they are the devil's balls. There's the reason. He's the culinary expert, that's right. And he challenges me to come down to Austin and we're gonna have a pe tasting where he's gonna try to get me to turn turn my opinion. I just told him peas, just like white claws, are part of the brand here. Anti peas pro white clauses is where we settled on this podcast. So even if you secretly liked pas, you would never admit it. It would not be it would not be a green Eggs and Hams situation where you tried them and you loved them. Right. Yeah. I try to be honest with everyone, so maybe if I love them, I might tell you. But it's it's doubtful. It's doubtful. Ah, sorry, International Lagoon Association or whatever. That's what's That's what's going on in my brain right now. So I'm looking forward to next week. Um, we're still rolling on in the quarantine. That's all I got, is that's all you got, Phil, Yep, that's it. That's it, all right, see you, Because I can't go a week without doing right

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