00:00:00 Speaker 1: I'm Casey and I'm Joklahoma Jones, and you're listening to the podcast what has happened in all you woods people? Guess what? The woods are coming alive? Outside? I heard a turkey strut and you might have said, hey, you know what, that actually is not a sound, that's an action. But you can hear it a little bit because you know what, what we have a video that released recently that you can hear that because it's so quiet and there's no wind, and you can hear the wingtips in a strut touching the rocks every time he strut. How cool is that is? That is pretty slick man. That's uh. That video is on YouTube right now and it's called like awesome Turkey Hunt Missouri or insane tebelievable, because it really is. It is unbelievable. A big old turkey and some dudes actually wearing some first light gear. Oh my god. And apparently I don't know if y'all know this, but it's like against the fung shui to wear first light when you're turkey hut according to the old you know the what would it say, like the seventeenth Legion or something like that. Let me tell you something. It works pretty good. It's about the best looking stuff the specter, at least for all around, just being on the ground, being in a tree or wherever. So if you're needing to get up a little bit before Turkey's season, go hit up first light dot com and get you some stuff. Today on the podcast, we have got a four fifth compromise. Eric is not here, but Michael and Greg are greg. We missed you last week. Did you get your get your internet in? I did? I got my Internet up and going at the RVs. All right, man, what's your megabyt per second right now? I don't know, but it's pretty fast. Yeah, that's good. Cool all right man, congratulations, well very much. Congratulations. I would like to have some Internet at my house maybe one of these days. They keep telling me I need like a ninety foot tower and I just refuse. I'm not doing it, so refuse spots it is. I suppose m Greg from Houston is in Houston, Texas, population two point three million according to Wikipedia. Did you just find Wikipedia or something that's just the city limit? Wow? Yeah, so there's like six or seven Yeah, that's the biggest city limit in the state. Though it's actually like a billion, I think, yeah, because Dallas is one point eight I believe. I don't know, let's look that up. We looked. We do this on road trips a lot because we travel a lot, as y'all know. So, like it's always interesting to look up just some factual knowledge. You know, you never know when you got another trivia to do or something, so it's good to know some stuff about your state. I think San Antonio is surprisingly low if I remember, because it's see limits is not all that big. You don't want to go to the city limits of San Antonio. One point three is what Dallas is. Yeah, yeah, quite a bit like Santonio, like seventh artist in the nation. Yeah, it's huge. The greater San Antonio area, which DFW is, I think bigger than that. Um, Charles Barkley loves San Antonio. From what I understand, apparently there's like some some like Ratio that he goes by. You're supposed to find five small somethings or something like that. Yeah, it's kind of hard to do though, from what I hear. Um, I don't know if that's fact or fiction, though, Tyler, you know, you never know what Chuck's gonna say. Man, you just don't. And the same thing happens in the hunting world. You never know what Michael's gonna say, and you never know if it's gonna be fact or fiction. You never know if he's gonna say words or just make animals sounds. He Michael has a dog bark that he likes to do. That actually is uh, it's more of a seal. If you've ever heard of a American bittern, it's what that sounds like when they have their ring call. It's a guttural like like they do it kind of more from their gizzard than they do from like fella, Like that's how a grouse throws that little breast down or whatever that is, little bubbles they got. You know, he's he's leaking, That's what he's doing whenever he makes that noise. Um. So you're just throwing words that I don't know if they're real or not. Oh I don't. It looks like, yeah, I speak to facts, many do I do? I promise, So he's just having to withhold more of his facts these Michael is. That's right, man, that's right. The beginning of knowledge. He might know where it comes from maybe one day. Proverb seven Proverbs one seven. That's it. Um so um fear of the Lord, that's it. Michael, you're a fearsome guy. Um something like that. You have compiled a listing for us that we may add to, but for now, you've got some uh things that we need to discuss. It's we're gonna do things a little different today. Okay, we what is going on? I can't understand. I'm trying to get I'm trying to put some story stuff up on our Instagram. Yeah at the Element Wild. That's a good plug. There you go. Yep. So today we're going to explore concepts in the hunting world, not just limited to white tail, but also maybe some Western stuff, some bird stuff as well, uh, that we need to discuss if we believe they are fact or fiction. And we're gonna try to uh not be too controversial, but I guarantee you we are because it's in our nature. But we're not gonna dog on anybody, uh too. It's just going to be more of life thoughts, wives, tales, idioms, things that you hear, Huh what'd you call me? Uh? You know, uh, things that you hear kind of as what is considered common knowledge. Sometimes in the woods that may or may not be true. So, Michael, you have a heavy heat, heavy hitter for us to start with. I think where we should start is the scent control were direct towards Greg. Greg. Greg made some outlandish statements. So the concept is we're gonna go around the room, uh counterclockwise. Uh so uh that Uh Michael has to finish this time. I want him to be the last guy to talk um, and we're going to state and rebute or confirm um what the other person says. And we're gonna also gonna state if we think it's fact or fiction. So Greg gonna stop talking. Uh you tell me or Michael, I suppose sin control fact or fiction and support your belief. Uh. I believe the only uh scent control that you can do is whichever way the wind's blowing. Y'all email Greg at the Element dot com. That's all queen line it. Anyway the wind blows. I believe so, But uh, I don't care how much scent control you do, how much clothes washing you do. Like the deer's gonna smell your breath, They're gonna smell your sweat. Like there's nothing you can do besides control where your wind is blowing. Do you wash your clothes at all? Yes? Good? Do you wash your clothes in whatever? Or do you stray away from the really flowerty stuff this past year I washed him in whatever. Yeah, it's because he's home with this, like I think I use downey du better gain I forget which one to happen, yeah, gain function. Yeah, so it is in your opinion fiction sink control. I think there's maybe something to like spray in your boots on like public on private ground, if you're trying to, you know, limit your scent trail going in and out. But if you're on public, I mean you have no clue of a dude's been walking through there with gas lane on his shoes, like Saint control is on public, is I think kind of dumb. Interesting, Wow, how controversial of you, Greg. I am going to uh go a different way so as to have some variance in this podcast. I'm gonna say sitt control is fat because of two things. I think that what people call sent control is actually sent elimination, and that is fiction. Sent control, however, would be doing things to mitigate your sense impact on the deer, just like what you were saying. So I do agree with you, um, but you know, just to kind of throw a wrench in it. Tyler and I learned January first, twenty eighteen that if you set your backpack down on the ground and try to decide what tree you're gonna sit in, the deer will come there, smell that thing, and not come any closer. The ground scent is huge in controlling how much ground sense you have on the ground is like imperative oftentimes. Yeah, I have no disagreement on like ground scent is thing, But I've sprayed my boots, done all this stuff, walk the trail, and I had a deer walk straight to that trail and just stop and hang up. Let me tell you another story that is and this is where things get anecdotal. Tyler and I were hunting some Texas public a few years back, and one of us had the urge. I don't remember who it was, I think it was Tyler and climb down, went and use the bathroom at the place we thought the deer want to come from. Thirty minutes later, that's the direction of dear come from. They walk right past the human scat and don't pay it no mind and never act like anything happened at all. So there's just so many factors that it's hard to even figure out what they are and what they aren't going to mess with. So I agree that you cannot control much except for where you're seeing ends up wind, ground, whatever it might be. Tyler Um. I think that potentially the less scent molecules you have floating around, the less chance one of those scent molecules goes rogue rogue and gets way outside your normal pattern of wind. That being said, the way that we hunt does not lend itself to scent control, and I pretty much cannot do scent control outside of the occasional washing um of my clothes in a scent of free product or of some sort of what's the the uh, it's not a hunting product, but it's like a scent free like the arm andhammer a little bit better. We've my family's recently gone to um like the um granola version of something, you know, where it's like a healthier your thing or whatever, but still sent free. Yeah. So I think that for me, it's like how a few molecules molecules can I put into the air if I get the chance to do it. But I mean even even for a lot of guys who work a lot. Man, it's hard to like find the time to really just dial everything when you got kids and stuff and you got to go to games and you've got things going on. I think it's just hard to dial your system to the point that you're like, you know, really just focused on sin control instead. I think it's way more effective to focus on wind and approach and ground. Scent is like it's been mentioned very important, so and especially like on public, like Greg said, he doesn't feel like it's very important. I feel like it it is in the last which he would agree with this. In the last you know, one hundred yards or so, a lot of times where it's like you're in a spot that maybe people don't hunt as much in the last couple of hundred yards, maybe even to ending on what kind of place you're hunting, But you don't want that deer to lock up at sixty yards because it got your tracks. So I think you just got to be careful around this, like walking down lanes and stuff that everybody else is walking down. You know, Greg's right, like it ain't it ain't worth messing with. But once you get in there, just make sure you're taking the right trail. Maybe I was like misunderstood, but like what I mean by sitting control is like spray your clothes. Yeah. Yeah, like I take ground scent like serious, Like I won't walk, No, I got that from you. I won't walk to the trail that right. I plan on hunting, Yeah, because I know that deer will lock up. Yeah, that's pretty important when you're like going in hanging hunt style too too. And Tyler does a good job of this of slowing down and making sure you don't overshoot your destination. So you're saying, if you walk a circle in around the SPI you're supposed to hunt, then it's not good. That's probably not good. Yeah, and it's especially if you sit up wind of the words. I'm sorry, Eric, I'm sorry when you have to edit this, Like sometimes I'll change the spot at hunt because I walk too far. My crap, Yeah, I need to hunt a little bit further this way. Yeah, I would say, you know, in Michael's case, if you do walk a circle, just make sure you sit up wind of the scrape. Yeah, sit up wind of it. Yeah, that's probably where i'd sit too. That's a joke. People. Michael factor fiction. I definitely think it's fiction. Maybe you can control, like a lot of people like to picture your scent has like a cone or whatever. Maybe you can maybe make it a little smaller, But I don't think at the end of the day, it's gonna be enough. Things the dogs wear. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Control sent control is blowing your wind in the correct direction on access and while you're in the stand, and also caring about your ground scent in the places that it can mess you up. Those my things that work. Yeah. Yeah. One thing on my family's property is I've left stuff out in the field that I could see from with binoculars. Elsie. Deer get to about ten or twenty yards and they start sniffing around and get really weird. But they never like blew and like ran off. But I've had deer like if they get down wind you and I had all the scent spray on or whatever, like, they're gonna smell your breath. They're gonna smell you being there and that's what alerts them. Yeah, Michael hit us with a little All right, So a lot of people talk about out working everybody else and going a mile plus back to kill a deer. Can you kill a deer within a mile of the truck? So you mean like a nobody cares type deal? Yeah, maybe like work harder Tyler. Can you outwork people? No? Do you need to go a mile back to people? Is this yes or no? Question? Or do I explain fact? Explain fact? Fact? You're gonna explain it? Yeah, I think in the majority of the majority of the time, yes, Okay, And there's a guy sitting across from me. I'm not sure what he's gonna say, but I know he likes out work people when you going in a lot of times, I think that if in the Whitetail Woods, if you get over a mile back, you are cutting a lot of the competition for sure. And if you're hunting with then a half mile, you're hunting where everybody has spent time. So those are two things that are pretty much fact. That being said, I had a crazy cool hunt on a deer in Iowa. If you haven't seen it, there's incredible grunning vocalizations. In this video. You can look at us from twenty nineteen season where I killed the deer. I watched the deer cross the road about eighty yards away and then shot him at twenty And it's cool and you can do that, and I would do that. I will do that every time. Every time I get a chance, I will hunt as close as I can. Feel good about hunting from the road, but I am typically if I'm map scouting something far out, you know, away from where I live, I'm looking for places that are for sure more than a half mile most of the time. So it's hard to make a definite answer on this, but I'm just gonna say fiction because it's not the first thing that I consider. It's not even the second thing I consider, but it is in there, and it's worth it has merit to it. However, the deer are where they are. Take for instance, South Dakota this year, we way far back one evening, like a mile and a half, saw no human sign and saw no deer. A couple mornings later, shot a deer four hundred yards from a parking lot. And I don't think that's a case of that's the exception, not the rule. But I do think that fairly often you can find deer that are not that far from where people go. It just has to be something that's cliche but overlooked and that's what we found there. I just has to add up and have all the things that you need in a good deer hunting spot because and here's why I say fiction, it's because people have finally caught on guys like Cameron Haynes, David Goggins, Aaron Snyder, Jocko Willenick. All these people preach being tough and like going forever, and people idolize that and think it's really cool. And it does work sometimes for sure. Yeah, but if you look on the map, it still doesn't make it easier to go far. No, it doesn't, but it inspires some people to do it. And if you look on the map and see something that looks really good and really far from the road, there's a good chance that there's another trial hard that's been there now where there's merit is saying I'm going to go far back in here, observe along the way, and when I find the spot, I know I can kill a deer. Kill the deer. Don't get so caught up on going the one mile and ignore the stuff that's a half mile in if that's the place to kill the deer. But Greg, your turn, Yeah, I know you've got some pretty good stuff here. I mean it's it's fiction, like you can you can kill deer right next to the road. I mean if there's a food source, that's like just like that's where the deer at, Like that's just where they're at. But uh, like on some high pressure stuff, I've found it. Uh, if I go pretty far back, further than anybody else's going, I'm gonna have consistently better hunts than if I, you know, was lazy about it and just like didn't go as far back. But I mean I've I've had like quick hunts where I dip in and I'm like one hundred yards from the from the road and had decent hunts. But uh, I say I have better quality hunts if I go further back. You're right, Well, if fact is what what's the what was the question? It was? Will going a mile deep get you into better hunting? It will get you into better hunting most of the time. But it's not across the board, you know, it's the thing, it's like one of your top things you look at right like there's nothing worse to me. Like when I because like I didn't before this, I only hunted the weekend and one of my least favorite things was not going far back and then having another dude come in on my setup, and I was like, the only way to avoid that was like going a mile and a half back, and I usually get some better hunts out of that. You know what's the worst though, So when you go that far back and then somebody comes in off of private and you're just like, ah, yeah, you gotta watch after that, people will definitely come in from the private. Yeah, Michael, it's my question. And I still don't even think I can give like a fact or fiction. I think it's more like a faction. Let's go, dude, Yeah, because combination words, due, Let's go. I think you do need to outwork people. But a lot of the times what I've seen in my little bit of hunting is outworking people can look a lot of different ways. Like you can a good point, if there is a ginormous hill in the way, there's not a lot of big dudes that are going to go up that hill. If you can cross a river, even better, because a lot of dudes aren't going to get soaking wet to go kill a deer. So I don't even know. There's also a level to expand on that point because I thought about that too. If you don't mind, there's a full level of like building up your mental library of situations, scenarios, things, you know, how do you react to certain weather conditions, wind conditions, all this stuff that can play into that as well. Like if you know that, hey, on a southeast wind, it's gonna die at dark, then you can go in and hunt a different place than what a lot of people can. Or if you know, hey, the sun goes down at this time, if I wait until right at the last thirty minutes of daylight and go in there, the thermals will change the way the wind blows and the deer you can sneak in on. So like, absolutely, that's a good point, man, for sure. What's you know? I don't know what this guy's typing over some ideas, you know, Okay, good, um, don't worry about me. Do you have more on that? I didn't mean to take that one away from you, but I really like that. I like that point a lot. Um. Are we ready for the next one? Yes, sir, this one I think we're all gonna agree on. But crossbows should be in archery season? You answer first, No, first, I am okay with someone who has a disability using a crossbow. What do you mean by disability? I mean they that they Well, that could be a lot of variations, but you know, the shoulder thing, I'm okay with that. Outside of that, crossbows don't belong in the hand. So, like, what about youth hunters? Yeah, uh, that's tough. I don't know. I don't know. It's a hard, hardward answer. I want to say no. But at the same time, like I think that's a little bit of my biased coming in. And whereas like if it lets a kid go hunting, who wouldn't otherwise than yeah, I kinda, I kinda, I kind of like it. Um. But like now, this is my personal conviction. I don't plan to start my kids on crossbows, but if that's something they want to do, I would probably allow it, but I would want to be working towards the direction of them shooting for a real bow. Um. So that's that's kind of what I think. I don't I don't think that for a normal hunter that they the whole point of an archery season is for uh limited capability, right, Like you're limiting yourself. And then if you say, oh, actually we're gonna allow this technology to make everyone feel like they and shoot one hundred yards. That's that's defeating the purpose. Yeah, yeah, like Greig, there's there's too many dudes who are capable of pulling bows back who like to use the crossbow because they're an opportunist. Yeah, and not a traditional You tend to say they have certain someone usually look similar. I was thinking, what mustaches, right, Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's yeah. So factor fiction, crossbows, blowing belonging archery. I think with limitations like um, physical disabilities and because I mean, if you can't pull a bowback that's capable of killing a deer, I can see a use for it. But I just don't like people shooting deer at a hundred yards with a crossbow. Yep, Tyler, is it my turn? Ye? Your turn? Um. I think that we have muzzleoaders that will shoot out to several hundred yards accurately right now, and we have a muzzleloader specific season in most states, and I think that crossbows should have their own season and it should not be associated with archery. That was going to be my next question. Nah, well you know, yeah, you could you could hunt. I mean I think potentially you could hunt archery during crossbow season, but there should be Like, to me, the way that Western states work is usually archery season opens, then there's muzzloader, then there's rifle, so that like, each weapon is more effective and so the most effective people have to deal with adverse situations a lot of times because they have weapons that will shoot out to a thousand yards or whatever. Colorado they put a mussloader season in the middle of archery season, but just for one week. Do you like that or dislike that? I don't mind it, don't I don't know if I like it or dislike it. But for an archery season, you would you would be okay for Like so saying Texas, you have a month of archery, you'd be okay for a week of that being crossbow. Yeah, I kind of makes sense to me in my mind to do three weeks of archery, a week of crossbow, and then rifle for fourteen months or whatever it is. You're kind of like, I think I know how you and I both stand on this. Like the concept of being able to use a lesser weapon in all seasons is also kind of a thing. I Mean, there's states right that don't allow that, and that's Texas one of them. It's dumb. There's a season yeah, yeah, that you can't use a pose archery. Yeah, so dumb. That's weird. What is the point, Michael? That's a lobbyous stuff for sure. Yeah. I think you and Greg like if you can't pull a bow back, that's one thing. Probably would have a little more lenience on the kids, because that is how I grew up until I was twelve or whatever. Okay, why did you decide to shoot a real bow? I thought it looked cool. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, my dad would probably still want me to shoot across both it was to this day, but because he feels like they're more effective. Oh, they're definitely more effective. But I don't think Steve really cares. He's just whatever you want to do. But yeah, I thought like, when you look at somebody hunting and they're using a pound bow, that's what you want to do. It's not like I want to go sit up in a tree stand and shoot this crossbow to dear. So I feel like that. Um, the issue with crossbows a lot of times is that the crossbow hunter is a guy that shoots a rifle that doesn't really spend much time worrying or learning about the art or craft of bow hunting and how all the different components work together. But it says here, actually, I'm looking at a Mediator Art article right now that says that crossbow hunters make up fifty to sixty percent of all bow hunters. Man, it's almost like they have buying power. It is, isn't It isn't crazy? How sometimes money can? It is be the way you track them. Who wrote the article? I don't know. Let's see, um old Dirk Patrick Durkin know he's a crossbow hunter, I believe probably No, I think you, um so yeah, the apparently crossbow harvests match or exceed vertical bow kills. Yeah. Really Yeah. So you bring up an interesting point though, and we talk about this often ethics are made up, right, and you interjected some ethic into the take as to why crossbows don't belong in that archery season. Are you talking about the fact that they're not paying much attention to what it's going on? Okay, So I don't necessarily feel personally that worried about it. I just think that's what the problem A lot of guys foresee is that like it's just a way for a guy with a rifle to uh, you know, basically hunt longer extended season, extended season, but then not really you know, learn and pay attention to the things that are going on there. It's like, I don't know, it's almost like this maybe an extreme case of this, but it's like, uh, well, you know, if you could let me hunt during falconry season with my bow, you know, I wouldn't shoot your falcon with my bow, and so you don't have to worry about it. So just let me hunt, you know, during that And really it's like you're not a falcon falconry guy if you're hunting with a bow, you know what I mean. So we're blending genres here. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of people screaming right now. They'll send this message. I mean, if you hunt with a crossbow just because you like it, we're not telling you that you're a bad person. By the way, my son, uh, we're hunting with a crossbow a few times this year. So I'm not opposed to it at all. I just think that, um, we shouldn't have a more effective weapon being allowed into a weaponry season that is supposed to be for less effective weapons. Yeah, like if it starts getting to the point where they start limiting tags because of the effectiveness of the weapon, Yeah, that's gonna be a problem. Yeah, they actually are doing that in some states. Yeah. Funny enough, funnily yeah, yeah, all right, Mike, next one, yep, Um, I think we'll go to the mechanicals are junk? Are flappers? Flappers? You know, I don't know if I ever heard that until this year. Really, Yeah, your first first yet that's a Yankee term probably, huh. I would imagine flappers. Yeah, that was made up by a Texan Actually, oh you're talking about really? Yeah, so that's truly new terminology. Sure it was. I mean I wasn't gonna say his name, but yeah, yeah, you know he made Cowboy Troy, did he? I think flapper? Did they make like a six hundred dollar one or something like that? I have no idea. Yeah, I think there's like a range for a mechanical broad hit or something like. Yeah, it's right, Michael, I definitely think it's fiction. I think what's more important with archery setup is the arrowweight. I don't think or I guess it'd be energy, but like overall and to dumb it down arrowweight, because the more your arrow is gonna weigh, the more penetration you're gonna get. You're gonna kill things. If you hit him in the soft spot with anything like six hundred grain arrow. When you see that thing fly, it looks real nice. You put a mechanical on that, You're gonna kill anything in North America easy. So I don't know, I think all I think, yeah, definitely, that wasn't quite six hundred grain, but yeah, I think people just like to get on their high horses on some of this stuff. So great, greg Um, I think some mechanicals are jumped, but uh, if you use a good one, I think they can be very effective. I think whatever broadhead you have on the end of your arrow, you need to take in consideration for what kind of shots you can take, and uh, you just you know, apply however the deers facing like if you're using a mechanical, just you're taking broadside and cordnaway shots and uh, unless you any mean feel feel like you're shooting a heavy enough arrow. Yeah, and I mean Texas deer, I mean you you can punch to the front shoulder, but Uh yeah, you just uh take into account what kind of broad hit you got. I'm in. I like carrying both mechanics, mechanical and uh field tips. Really yeah, that's that's where I'll not fixed plates. Uh yeah, I was waiting on wait till the turn Broadhead. That is a good point though, Like a golfer doesn't go into a match with only one club, Like, yeah, you've dang, you got gottering clubs for every shot, every shot Ye'll leave here, say Kayley goes with the one one club six iron Man's all you need that play a whole seven iron seven. Yeah. Well, now you guys are just dunking what I said, But a little bit. I know we're not. She's pretty do that too with the both thing. But the question is factor fiction brought hit mechanicals are jump Ye, I'm gonna say fiction, And here is how I come to that. I agree with Greg that some of them probably are. But at the same time, there are some fixed blades that are pretty jump too. So assuming you want to compare apples to apples, you can't say I'm gonna take this cutthroat Broadhead and compare that to an Amazon knockoff rage and think they're going to be the same thing, because they're not. It's just one of them is just made out of a pepsican and the other one is made out of like the kind of steel that they used to make punch dies, you know, Like it's a different thing completely. So if you just take a really high quality mechanical and compare it to a really high quality fixed they're both going to be pretty effective if you put them in the right spot. And I to kind of, uh take a little bit harder stance here instead of being so mellow. Uh, I think that people really severely over emphasize, um, the lack of penetration or whatever you want to call it, uh, the reduced lethality of a mechanical. I think mechanicals are deadly deadly with the right set up. Ditto Tyler. Um Tyler, you kind of like change my mind on this over the last few years because Uh, I went down the rabbit trail a rabbit hole after h I missed a deer pretty much because of a mechanical in twenty eighteen and decided I was gonna like try to the whole heavy arrow, tiny little paper cut and TLPC had some bad experiences with that too, and then figured out, you know what, sometimes just the less than optimal happens when you release an arrow. It does because guess what happened in South Dakota this year when I released an arrow mechanical. You know, I don't know. There's gonna be dudes for sure that comment on this video when they see it and say, if I'd have been shooting a six hundred grain arrow or whatever and iron wheel solid that I would have pushed through it. I can't tell you I wouldn't have. But this was a hard, hard spot on the body of a deer, big deer. I don't think you'd killed him if you went pushed through right there. Yeah, I mean it might have missed. Was vital behind that, And I'm not cracking on you. You know, y'all see in the video. There's a whole big thing on this. But Tyler doesn't end up putting the arrow where he would like to shoot a mechanical. But then five days later or something like that, I just shoot a mechanical and kill one dead as a doornail, you know, very close spot to where I shot mine. Yeah, yeah, very close. We talked about that well ago because we were looking at this footage and like I was just a few inches over from sound empty milk jugs. It was so like slick through it. It makes me so as wild. Yeah, so mechanicals for life. Yeah nice, hmm. This is a Tyler Jones special, right, this is what Michael said. No, this is Tyler Jones. Trapping is cruel? Oh really for fiction, casey, I don't have much. I don't have a whole lot of thoughts on this. I don't ever think about this. I've never been a trapper. Um. Fact, trappy is cruel, but the wild is cruel. That's right. There's no such thing as a peaceful death in the wild. Even when things lay down and freeze of death, it's probably not very enjoyable. So it's just participating in the way things work about froze to death. Um so uh. There might not be people liking me to say that, but absolutely. But instead of trying to defend a position that is like very refutable, just like admit to the facts of the wild, you know, like everything, there's no like cruelty. At the same time, I could go philosophical and say cruelty doesn't exist because there's no such thing as like that. I don't know. There's a line of ecclesiasties it says that you know, life is vapor, right, it doesn't, it doesn't matter, it's just the way it goes. So that's what I have to say about that. People. People are a lot more sensitive right now and a lot more like I feel like this is a broad statement, but I feel like a lot of people are a lot more have distanced themselves or we as culture maybe have distanced ourselves from the fact facts period. Right, But the fact that like death is something that happens and then you have to live with it and you have to deal with it. It's coming on earth, and then you have to deal with it in actual death, and people just want to ignore that and have kind of some escapism from that, which is fine, I understand, and I do it at times. Two. But like if you think about even just one hundred and fifty years ago in eighteen seventies, cowboys like just were like almost glad to die sometimes, you know what I mean, Like they would they would, you know, I mean, it's it's the whole thing that we talked about on the Medior podcasts briefly about Davy Crockett, right, it's like this whole thing where it's like glory. It's like a sort of glory to die for a good cause, you know what I mean. So, I don't know. I think we're a very in a very weird time where people are just don't understand that that's the thing that will happen and that it's not really a comfortable thing ever. But at the same time, like in the past, people have known. I mean you can, like going back to the Biblical stuff, you know, like people death was just perceived differently, and even modern culture back then like just king has just killed people. Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, so factor fiction fact. Yeah, trapping is cruel, I think. But you know, I guess you could use live trap and take it somewhere, but you're still annoying the animal, stressing it out. Yeah. So to give a little backstory by the way, so that y'all know that my opinion is somewhat vetted, I was a County trappler for two years to spend a lot of time trapping Couti's hogs, popcats, uh neutra rats, all that stuff. So I've been around it. So not just speaking from a um you know, from an outsider's point of view on my stuff, Greg, Yeah, I think it's fact a trappings cruel, but nature's cruel. And I think people have a false idea of what a death in nature looks like. This thing an animal just falls asleep next to a creek peacefully and dies in there, turns into a flower. I know. They usually they usually get eaten alive, ye from the back, from the back side. So, uh, trappings cruel, but it's a it's just a thing. Yeah, And uh, I think I think it's a little weird when people take like photos with like trapped animals, kind of weird. That's kind of weird to me too. I Mean I don't have anything against it, but I just think it's kind of weird. Yeah, yeah, I Um, the first bobcat I caught in a foot trap, I for sure took a picture because it was like a big accomplishment for me, you know, But it's not something I posted for the whole world to see. You know, there's there's some level of this stuff where it's like, you know, um, we don't have to go find um the nearest ASPCA or whatever it is and go talk to them about how what we think about trapping at their location. But you know, amongst people who spend some time out in the wild, it's okay to like, you know, be frank about this stuff for sure. Yeah, Michael, I agree with everything. The trapping is cool, but life's cool. I mean, we literally were writing the ATV yesterday and just saw a pig based down in the creek. Dead, just dead, no explation, just dead, banded hall like you know, white black hag. So I don't know where it came from. Anhogs, no, not a single one bunch of sign though. It saw a big old cow, yeah, moo cow. That'd have been a tasty animal. It was. It was. I thought it was a steer when I first saw it, and just kind of it looked like it. But it was like a heifer, like a young tasty. All I heard was Casey say, that's a good way to get shot, and I look up a cow. Well it's just a black one kind of you know, like it just looked like a hog from the from the first reaction, you know, but there's not supposed to be yeah, supposed to be cows there. Yeah. Next, Next, trophy hunting is the wrong way hunting for hunting for a trophy is you should only hunt for meat. Oh it's wrong. Who's first? Greg, I'll go um, like, shoot whatever makes you happy, but like I'll trophy hunt if it keeps me out in the woods longer, and like, uh, I'm in through the hardest animal to kill out there. Like people think trophy hunting is just like you go hunting and you shoot the biggest one, but it it's really hard to find the biggest one, and that a lot of times means you don't kill anything. So I wonder if those people hate pumpkin contests the biggest Yeah, it's like these people planning some pumpkins and then had a big one and made a contest, Like is that a I don't know, they don't, that's the answer most of them. Probably. I'm sure somebody has problem with it, but like they don't because they're different. Animation trophy hunting is the wrong one is fiction. I have two anecdotes. First Off, if Cherokee inion was here instead of me and he saw a buck that had antlers and he saw a doe that didn't, I bet that dude's gonna shoot the antler critter because he's thinking he can make tools out of that it's more useful. Yeah, it's more useful animal, more meat, bigger skin, all that, and said that was kind of the next thing that kind of transitions eating into me. A lot of times. The trophies are also the bigger bodied critters, so you have more tasties. And you know, it's also just pretty fun to challenge yourself. And uh, you know, if you went out behind Tyler's house here on any given day, you could probably tag out on doors pretty quick. But if you want to shoot a big giant buck like he has on the wall right here, that he um, he would probably have to wait a little bit on that. Huh, yeah, I had to wait a lot. You know. It's ah, I's fiction for me too, um, because of the kind of reverence that I have for that animal and the rarity of it. People love birders love seeing the green jay let's go, you know what I mean. They love seeing those things, and so do I. I love seeing a green jay. I've seen one. I love sweet. It was sweet. And I love seeing big bucks because guess what, at some point, the a certain size of buck I have only seen once or twice, you know what I mean, So when I see it again, again, it's awesome. And if I get to shoot that thing and put it on my wall and see it every day, that's cool too. I like that. So, I mean, I don't need to go on and on about it, but similar feelings. Yeah, we all hang out way too much. We're Michael needs to go first here soon, yeah, next, and you're going last, all right? Catching release allows fish to live and reproduce. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's science to show that a lot of the fish that get hooked are not not taking it out of there, like they are getting messed up when you sit there and you try to take the hook out and you can't get it out, and it you got your fingers all up in the gills, and then you try to get it back and it just kind of swims away sideways. Like I think that thing's dead almost. I would say more than fifty percent of the time, people are killing the fish, even if they don't know it. And maybe it feel makes people feel better about whatever, But I think I think they're dying. I think it depends on what kind of fish too. Like I've caught the same bass like three or four times in a little creek because I you know, memorize the marking on it. But he just fine if they kept release them. But I think other fish are more finicky and might have a tougher time. It seems like there's a h sea trout where a little uh yeah finicky, yeah thing we ate. Yeah, they don't fish. They don't like to be out of the water. It's pretty easy to kind of correlate where It's like the soft scaled fish are usually kind of tinder shadows. The thing I was gonna say, people think about game fish with shad. Dude, if you touch them, they're dead. Oh yeah, they're dead dead. Um. The only caveat to that would be catfish, which they don't have scales, right, catfish are tough, dude. Them things are weird. They are weird. Dude. Yeah. Um, so I'm I'm with y'all. Uh that it is fiction. And I think that you were talking about high horses. Will I go, Um, catch and release angling is about as high as horses get. Yeah, you know what's the only higher horse? Keep them wet? Oh that's I'm on, that's that's going there. Which there's a there's something to it, sure, but you're still handling the fish. He's still super stressed. Sooner or later we should just scoop it, dive and take pictures of him in the water. Yeah. And also there's a lot of dudes out there that are keeping them wet, but their gills aren't wet. It's just parts of their body and it's like taking pictures with them, but they're girls out of the water. It's like, Dude, I know that it's like anal fin is in the water, but that's not doing anything for him. Okay, So I mean get off the high horse. Here's here's a quick little, uh little bit here from uh. This is Louisiana Fisheries. Article done with LSU and Sea grant from Louisiana in the month of August Texas Parks and Wildlife connected to release mortality study on large mouth bass any private lake in Texas. Um. Each team fished until I had thirty bass over fourteen inches. Hooking location was recorded before they were tagged and placed some boats and live wells no longer let's see held in boat live wells no longer than fifteen minutes. They were transferred to a twenty foot deep floating nylon mesh cage. There, the fish were held were held for seventy two hours before release. At the end of seventy two hours, twenty two percent of the basset died. The death rate was no higher for the fish caught on live bait than those front artificial baits. On the first trip, mortality is thirteen percent for live bait compared to twenty three for artificial. On the second trip, twenty eight and twenty three. And yeah, it goes on. Did that just say that mortality was higher on artificial than life the first trip, the second trip, it was higher on live. Okay, so there's no conclusive seven. Yeah, it's it's but the common I guess you would say, like the thing said often is that live bait fisherman hook fish deep and kill them, and that would show that there's really nineteen percent or nineteen fish were bleeding when they were caught. Forty seven percent of those died. So if it's lead a good chances toast and the gill forty eight in the throat, I'm surprised it's that low. I feel like gill damages like for sure, and that's but that's like the short term. Also, these are bast dude, They're pretty tough. Yeah, yeah, pretty tough. They got a big old hard mouth too. Yeah. So um. That's the other thing that a lot of this isn't taken in consideration is like, how does the catching of the fish affect its ability to feed? How does the handling of the fish affect the slime that then protects the fish long term from two weeks later they get an infection? Yeah, or a fungus. Um. So yeah, there's it's uh, it's it's definitely worth keeping some fish and eating them, I think, especially as good as they taste. Right, Yeah, so all right, hit us with a good one. Last one. What's it gonna be? Oh, there's two more. We gotta do them, we gotta do let's go. I think these last two. Okay, poachers should lose their hunting license. Oh we should have put the heads on headphones on the other day for this for sure. What's a poacher question? Question? Like a person who breaks the law, a person who illegally takes game, I would imagine, So, actually, what do you not even Yeah, what if your spot line, magent and shotting thing, Well, is it illegal to is it legal to do that? Look at yourself. A person who hunts or catches game or fish. Illegally is dictionary Oxford Dictionary. So un illegally not killing, but hunting or catching game. Yeah. So, Or if you go on somebody else's property, you trespassing, your poaching, trespassing and poaching? Well, if you because you're hunting game, if you poaching poaching, yeah great? Should they lose their hot lassons? H? No, I think many people could be considered poachers in the hunting world, that's right. Especially, I think not a lot of fun to fall into a category accidentally and then have lifelong repercussions of it, is there? Yeah? I think if it's a reoccurring like a recidivism like there, let's go, they keep a trend of you know, breaking the law and taking game and they just don't have any regard for the law, then yeah, you lose your hunting license. But if you break a hunting law and you didn't mean to, I don't think you should lose your hunting license. Yeah, Or if you don't get two wheels off the highway? Yeah? What role does civil disobedience have in wildlife conservation? This is careful right here. I'm not accusing you of this civil disobedience. What do you mean by that, I mean when, and this is probably for the aggregate here, when do we say, you know what, as a conservation biology minded partaker in the outdoors, when do we say, you know what? I don't agree with that, and I think that it is a decision made ignorantly and I'm not going to worry about it when you are willing to get your license taken away, which I mean you can keep hunting without a license certainly, right exactly, You're just gonna get a ticket every time or phone in jail every time you get caught hunting without a license. But I think that's the thing. Is Like, it's hard because the like originally a lot of stuff originally was intended with or had good intentions when it started, right, And you know, maybe Theodore Roosevelt saw different things disappearing on the landscape that he wanted to put in some sort of conservation model to try to mitigate those things disappearing. And everybody's faulted, right, everybody's walked there except for one. And I think that even with good intentions, they're selfish ambitions within everybody. And I think that those contain things, and so you have to definitely you can definitely take things in your own hands. But I feel like that the hardest part of being like that's a stupid rule is that everybody else, if everybody else doesn't think that rules matter, then all of a sudden, we are back into the buffalo issue where we don't have any game in America anymore. So that's the that's the hardest part of the thing, because I am with you, I guess, or with whoever wants to say, like, but yeah, but you know, sometimes you're like, man, this is a dumb rule. Why is this the case? Why why do they get to tell me, you know, I can't shoot deer when they're eating the hours out of my rose garden or whatever, or you know, like in the case of some of the places, like locally for us, I know, like there's dudes that hunt around golf courses. You know, they may be even a couple of miles from a golf course, and the deer deer overpopular to the point where there they are eating the people who live on the golf courses landscape. And so those people are complaining to the state. Now the state comes in and bring sharpshooters in that shoot one hundred and seventy deer in a night or two and can't do anything with them because of legalities. Instead of letting these people around them, Hey, here's here's some tags for you this year. Why don't you shoot some dose and let's do something with these deer rules for thee and not for me. That's when it becomes a problem. Yeah. Yeah, so you you probably are a little more familiar with this kind of stuff. But in professional sports you have a governing body like the NBA, the NFL or whatever, and there are players associations that are kind of the uh, like the anecdote to that, right or um, however you want to say it, like they answer, um, it's like the antidote antidote right, yes, yes, those are two different words. We've said antcdote a few times, so he's probably mind. Yeah yeah, so uh. They they are willing to stand up as a collective body and say no, we aren't going to stand for this. It would be nice in the hunting world if we had something like that, And there's probably are people that are saying there are places like that, Sei, I haven't found one that I really really like, uh, And maybe that's the nature of what we do you have a lot of loaners, a lot of people who see things differently. But well, that's man, that's and that's for sure a thing like we talked about, a lot of ethics are made up, and there's a lot of dudes out there that want to project their ethics onto you. About shooting a turkey when it's own, when it's only been fooled by one decoy, and it's and you know, dead still, and it's got its head halfway up or whatever. It's so it's hard. It is hard because everybody, some people, you know, Cajuns, think they should be able to just drive by and shoot geese offside of the road and take them, put them in a pot and eat them, because that's what they do with geese, you know what I mean. And then there's every faceting between that and the person who thinks that a goose is one of their brothers you know that was created long ago or whatever. So yeah, it's it's weird. Yeah, uh, I needed to say factor fictional fiction fiction for sure. I don't think. I think there's so many tiki tack laws, like in your home state, you should know your laws. But like what we do, we go to so many states. It's very difficult and it takes a lot of work to be able to understand what each state, like what laws are in Nebraska compared to South Dakota, and they are literally touching borders like they are the same state, same type of country behind miles away from where you just work, literally but in this other state. Uh. Now, this is something we have corrected and talked to a game warden about. YadA YadA. In one state, you have to put your hunting license number on the trail camera that you deploy. I've never a hundred a state like that in my line. I have, but didn't know that. And the only reason you know that is because you have a friend who is a game war Yeah exactly, he told us. And then ever since then, Yeah, no problem, man, you know we'll do it. So you know, it's just like little things like that are gonna catch you. Yeah, sooner or later. Yeah, oh man, we're just out there trying to have fun shoot some things. Speaking of ethics, Michael is the frontal ethical. He's staying away from the other two. Yeah, I'm gonna stay away from the other two. Takes his hard shot. You don't want to ask that one too, with what weapon, say, bo teller, what is ethical? Oh my goodness, Uh okay, effective, it's effective. Uh it's frontal. So is so front what's the statement? Frontal is not ethical? Yes? Fiction, frontal is unethical. You say fiction A frontal is ethical? Yes, okay, then my ethics are not your ethics. I'm pretty close they uh but you know for the person listening, yeah, frontal is ethical. I have seen some frontal shots. I actually filmed a frontal shot that was as devastating as just about any bow shot i've seen. Okay, yep, and I think that uh smokele homa. In fact, that was definitely smokele homa. And I in fact think that the frontal may be the most effective, especially within a effective range. Well, I don't want to get so this is this is where like telling somebody they're right or wrong because they can't shoot a certain distance or whatever, it gets tough. So Tyler, tell me this, how far on a white tail sized animal do you feel good about shooting from the issue is white tail range from like eighty five pounds to like two Western white tail, So that's the that's the issue. And on midwestern white tail you're gonna have, you know, a deer, it's probably not as jumpy as some of the ones around here, definitely um and also is bigger. And I would say I would depending on how much I've been shooting, which usually means earlier in season the better. Um, I would not probably be afraid to shoot close to thirty on a big frontal buck. What about Texas on a Texas deer, Dude, twenty is probably about a lot of factors in there. Yeah, the good thing about a frontal on a Texas deer is when it jumps a string, you got a lot of things to hit. Still, when it jumps a string at twenty on a broadside shot, you have a slim margin area there and you better hope that it doesn't go into neck fee right there. You know. Yeah, I would say that frontal is not ethical is fiction for a couple of reasons. I agree with tyler U. The frontal actually has some steep margins on it. So like you go from killing to missing pretty quick, left and right, sure, up and down. Absolutely, you got brain all the way down to hearten and so like there's and you can be miss left right a little bit, and there's always something that can happen, you know, YadA YadA. But I think it's a lot more ethical, and it's the most effective when orchestrated correctly. I'll tell you all this you probably have learned. I'll push the limits. We were in a state north of here this past year, early in dear season, and I was fully prepared to shoot sixty yards at a deer on a frontal, and I would do it again. I don't think i'd shoot that far. I don't blame you. You You saw sixty yards for the first time the other day. It's true. I think a lot of it is how good you are with your weapon, Like if you are really confident in shooting that, shoot it, because if you hit it in the right place, it will die very quickly and might be the most ethical if you want to talk ethics. So yeah, frontal is not ethical? Is fiction for sure? I mean, like the frontal is usually a close shot, So like, I mean a frontal is definitely ethical, and maybe not at one hundred yards. But I mean if you think you can kill it, kill it, yeah, I mean it's killing it ethical. Yeah. Question, we don't need man, what a question? It's almost like ethics are subjective. Almost. It's almost as if they're dependent on your world view, on your life experiences. Wow, what a time to be alive. Yeah, something like that, guys. I think the thing to remember throughout all this is that these are opinions that we're expression and you also have an opinion, and that's good and constructive discourse about this stuff is always helpful. If you can learn something from somebody else, it's good. It's probably why you're listening to podcast to you the truth. Let me ask you something real quick, all right, is it constructive to be sarcastic when you're talking with people online and criticizing or having discourse? Uh no, because it's real hard to tell someone's tone said, don't use sarcasm, is what you're saying. So don't say, oh smart guy there or something like that, right if he really means that's as I'm just saying. Sarcasm gets used way too much and it's not a good look. Yeah. So, um, discourse is good. Don't hear anybody down too far, because you know they might not anybody in their life that can pick them up too much. So huh this gout DP that's right, dude. So we like to roll around here and then crack jokes real quick to kind of lift yourself. That's how we roll, man. So remember we're all hunters. Um. There is a point, however, where you don't stand behind somebody because they're getting shots fired at them and you don't get a shot here, right um if you're I won't say, I won't give examples, but there's no uh um like dead cold hands when it comes to this stuff. It all has a lot of variation at a lot of things that are subjective. But the more we talk about stuff, hard issues, things that we encounter in the woods, the more will have a better concept of how everybody looks at this stuff and we will all be better hunters together. So remember that and remember this is your element. Live in it.