00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, what's up at its people? I'm Tyler Jones and this is the Bad Country mini series from the Element podcast. Casey fill them in. Since we're diving head first into the back country hunting this season, we decided to call in some help and talk to some experts that know how to crush it in the back country. So make sure and subscribe and if this is helpful, we'd love for you guys to give us a five star rating and and I Tunes review. Absolutely. Now let's get into it because I still have a lot of Mountain House flavors to try before September gets here. What's going on everybody? Real quick? Before we start this episode of the back Country series, we are doing a giveaway and I wanted to let you know in case you hadn't heard, because it is an appreciation for a hundred thousand downloads and there are some great things that we're giving away. Casey, what does that include a lot of stuff? Tyler? First and foremost, we're giving away some on X Premium memberships, some awesome apparel, and a pair of Vortex diamondback team by forty two bnoculars. But that's not it. If we get a hundred reviews before we return from the HeLa we're gonna give away a trail camera as well. Man, that's a lot of good stuff, a good trip camera to Yeah, yeah, yeah, just saying that saying on the Walmart shelves or nothing here. Um. The way you win that is you would give a review on what is known as I guess iTunes slash Apple Podcasts. I don't know, but they're phasing out iTunes, but it's the same thing Apple podcasts. You go to your podcast to you give us a review, uh five stars, say something good and we will You will be on the running from it for it from the beginning of reviews all the way until the last one, which the last one is gonna be uh sometime while we're basically on the HeLa trip. So when we get back from the HeLa trip towards the end of September is when we're gonna pick the winner, and the winner will have a chance to get by those hopefully by the time dear season starts. So pretty good deal. Just go give us a review on Apple podcast Us. We appreciate all the downloads, guys, and let's move on to the back Country series all right, today on the show. We have got Caitlin Burman. She is an old college buddy of mine and she is an outdoor enthusiast and all around goes hard in the back country. Caitlin, how are you today? I'm doing great. Thank you guys so much for having me on. You are welcome. I'm excited to talk. Uh. We actually haven't seen each other face to face and probably ten nine or ten years, I don't know, but the decade. Yeah, it's we're getting old, my gosh. Um. But um, you're one of my favorite social media follows and it's just been cool to see you like blossom and start doing what you love to do and pursue pursue like your passions pretty much and everything you do in life. Uh, And it's I don't know, it's just like fun to see people go and do awesome stuff. So, uh, can you tell us a little bit about like what you do on a daily basis and then kind of um, just maybe some background and like how Lafe is taking you kind of across the country. Yeah, sure, so, um, right now, my daily work looks like I run a climbing gym here in Sun Valley, Idaho, And so that's the nine to five type situation for me, so h hater and call volunteer firefighter and e MT. But um, I'm super fortunate to be able to live in just the most gorgeous Idaho mountains and um it's really incorporated into the culture of the community that I live in to just get out and get after it. So UM, I do a fair amount of horse packing and um long distance horseback riding, as well as climbing and mountain biking, and it just transitions with the suguns. Once the snow starts to fall, I transition to skiing and kind of getting out in the back country that way on two planks, and um kind of climb all year round with a little bit of ice climbing as well. So um so it just kind of my sport is dictated by the season. And UM, I kind of made my way out here after college. I came from Texas, kind of made a little bit of a pit stop transition in Colorado, and then I kind of kept moving west. I met my husband in Colorado and he's originally from this area in Idaho, and so just kept on going and I'm pretty packed where I am now. Yeah, yeah, I would be too it looks pretty amazing. And Idaho is the place I've never made it to yet. I've got family up in court A Lane. I always say that I need to go, just have an excuse to go visit, right, It's just it seems like an awesome place to be. Um, how did you find like your passion for the West. And I'm assuming that like for some reason you decided to go to Colorado after college? It wasn't just like a wham right right? Yeah, So it's actually during college. Um, I worked in Colorado as a backpacking guide. So in the fourteen ers, UM, and I've always been just next I would actually go so far as stay an extreme outdoor enthusiasts and just trying to find more access to more public land and learn more skills and other ways to access to that country. And um, I just found that the West tends to be a little bit more conducive to be able to push those boundaries. Um, there's just not a ton of public land in Texas. UM. I think that was one of my big My family traveled to Colorado kind of regularly. UM. And then the more avenues I took, the more new paths I found from there, and that that kind of just building effect set me farther into the mountains and now I live pretty, according to some people, pretty remotely. It's um pretty hard to get to a sun valley if you think of it from modern standards. Yeah. We we had to get to Bozeman last summer and that seemed prett difficult enough. So you know, you start talking about places that are quite a ways from even like a secondary airport, and you can pre remote for lower forty eight standards. So that's cool. That's a cool place to be. Um. You had a pretty big conservation kind of event happened a few years back that it kind of involved that bad country horse ridding you were talking about. Can you tell us little bit about rod for rid? Yes? So right? For red was um a nine hundred plus mile journey following the salmon run from the ocean to kind of my back door here in Stanley, Idaho. UM. Stanley Redfish Lake specifically is the farthest inland that migrating salmon go to spawn. And so too friends and a cat canal and MG right, we had a pack string of seven horses, um, and we rode from a story of origented Stanley that took us about two months, and the entire time we were really focusing on bringing awareness and education and advocacy for wild salmon and steel head because there's a just drastically diminishing um and so we felt that horse but horses are pretty approachable. People are curious while you're riding your horse through downtown Portland's like that doesn't water so um. Hey, we were able to hear a lot of questions, um, and where people came and approached us more say than to say if we were on a bike, um for a long distance type travel. So um, it was an increasing to me. And uh, definitely the longest I've ever packed a horse for sure. No, that's very awesome. That's so cool, so um that I have so many questions. We probably could just do a whole podcast on that another time. But like, is that something that your customer to doing kind of long distance stuff like that with horses in the back country or was that kind of a new thing. No, I would say that was definitely new for me. Um. I had done some outfitting as far as working for a horse outfitter here in Mountains Divida Hope, but all was much smaller as as far as scale, and that's kind of where I got my initial skills. And then um cat on the ride. She had some pack past experience with long distance trips, but as far as going that far, even two weeks worth of packing would have been a next step for me. So that was a that was a big jump and a lot of learning papped it. So you're quickly becoming one of my new idols. But I have to ask you because for this series that we're doing, we really haven't had anybody talk about horses. So like, logistically, what is what are the advantages of having a horse? Which I can think of a few maybe off off the top of my head, but then like, also, um, what are the what are maybe the disadvantages are the things you have to really think about and that may kind of cost you time or or even just energy in the back country dealing with horses. Oh man, Um, Well, I think a huge advantage of horses one is they're carrying capacity, So that's there. I mean that's either a huge advantage for hunters, um And something I'm going to be using for hunting is I'm kind of coming up into this elk hunting and learning. I just started bow hunting this past year. UM and um their ability horses and mule specifically more I would say they just they can handle rough country and you can access places with them, um that you couldn't on the four wheeler or a truck or anywhere else. Even so then the carrying capacity they can obviously carry more than we as humans can UM. I would say that's there are major thumbs up. Um. Other than I just have this instinctual love for horses. I like having them with me, And honestly, I think that's where the pluses end. Um. They're there are a lot of work to take horses into that that country. They they require a lot of care and so um just from a feed, their attack, the what they will need if they're if they're hurt, shoot, thinking about shoes, if they lose a shoe or do you have the equipment to get it back on or they they require a lot and um they don't actually have. You know, if you have a down tree on a run out cliff side, you you may not have options because we have we have saws that we carried and we can sauce through. I mean, if we're going super ambitious, maybe like a twelve inch um circumference log. But some of these trees that come down here during the winter season are huge, and if we come up on that we could have to backpack miles um. And horses are they're not very fast either. Um. In good drain we can travel about three miles per hour UM, and so there there are a lot of benefits to having them as far as access and carrying, but you definitely need to go in with some anticipation of everything that could go wrong. Otherwise you're gonna be carrying a lot without a horse, right, yeah, I um. In two thousand seventeen, I was in northern British Columbia on a sheep hunt um with horses, and it was I've readen a horse one time before, which is crazy. I'm you know, technically I'm a pretty much a country boy, but like I'm just not a farm guy, you know what I mean. And I just grew up uh, chasing hogs and in that kind of thing instead of you know, we just didn't have cattle, you know or whatever, So horses weren't really a part of my life growing up. And so like I get off on this horse in the in the back country of British Columbia and like every limb threatens to just take me off this horse, you know what I mean, Like he has no regard for the fact that there's a two pound of human on his back, you know. And so like there's definitely like there are some struggles that I saw and we had a dude, our our guide was just like, man, he could just tie any knot and do anything you could imagine with a horse. I mean, he was a for sure cowboy pro, you know, and um, that was definitely helpful. But I was like, the next year they went on the guy that I was videoing for, he went on this stone sheep hunt again because we didn't tag out that year, and uh they did ten miles into the back country by foot in similar terrain but a little less a little more like uh up above tree line. And so I was just like, man, I just kind of feel like what we did, um, we could have done on foot. But there was definitely like some big hills and stuff that I was like, I'm kind of thankful I can just lean forward on this horse and go, you know. So I see I see that as like you know, and in the ability also for like like you said, with the carrying capacity. You have such an ability to carry like a canvas tent or something that's really comfortable, you know, and like um stove supplies and that kind of thing. But um, you know, I mean, what do you do you need a big pack on a horse trip? And and if if not, have you ever been on just a backcountry trip where you needed a good pack And what what does that look like for you? Um? Well, horse the shadows that I use, and I should one other thing I should tack onto. The advantages of horses is um. Here in Idaho and much out of the West, we have a lot of designated wilderness and so horses are also mules to are a great way to access, um that wilderness area because you can't use any motorized or mechanical advantage, so you can set up some pretty awesome face camp stuff way. Um but as far as the horse isn't packing, UM, I use a decker saddle and man to use kind of more of a traditional style. And um but as far as I do also a fair amount without the horses as well, and um, most of that would be mountaineering based and for pack for that I have this super old school as free pack that's just been working for years and UM actually had a raccoon choose three part part of the hip belt and great so UM, but I do UM. I use a stats A sixty five leader, and I probably more so use a forty two leader made by Black Diamond. UM. What I really like about it is it has a separate the hip belt is separately mounted, so there's flection built into the hip belt itself, so there's less rigidity in the entire pack system. UM, which I found to be pretty darn helpful. Is that the direction you were thinking as far as what you're asking? Sure? Yeah, so is that is that pack? Um? You say it's kind of flexible. It's still a frame pack though, right, it's actually it's an internally frame packs POS two stays UM on the inside, but there's no like external frame to it as you would see potentially on like hunting pack. Um, just because I need to be a little bit more nimble in like close rock areas for that for that purpose. Yeah, So as you transition more into like the hunting side of things, are you going to swap packs and look for something a little bit different and you're gonna try to roll with that pack? And see how it treats you. No, I I definitely am going to look for something different. I I'm you know, for better or for worse. I'm a kind of gal that like matches each activity with its own thing, um. And I so well, like I have a different pack for skiing for skiing, and I have a different pack for climbing, and um. This past year, I just used I didn't carry a pack for packing out any animals or game, um, because they was planning on your seen the horses, and so I just had a normal pack for my own equip my personal equipment, um not. And I for that I would just use, um like a normal thirty leader just light. Here we go tying. Yeah, but I'm gonna have to do a little bit bit more exploring. I'm fortunate here to have some mentors for hinting that are going to help guide me in the right way for that, But I don't have one in particular that I'm looking at for this coming season. Yeah. Cool. We're kind of in the same boat where I've done a ton of day day packing, you know, where you just kind of go back to base camp at the truck or whatever. But this, uh, you know, you're talking about wilderness earlier. Um, we are going to be hunting a wilderness area there in New Mexico this fall, and that's kind of the whole premise of this this series that we're doing is kind of learning how to do that overnight backpacking kind of thing and learning how to kind of be sufficient with what you have on your back. And you know, we're kind of doing the same thing. We're keeping our options open, really trying to understand what's gonna work best, and uh kind of uh exhausting our resources of people and trying to understand what everybody uses, you know, because honestly, you can look at statutes all day, but like if you talk to somebody who's real and who's been out there and done it, like they're gonna what they used are gonna matter a whole lot more than you know, talking about ounces or rigidity or whatever it might be. But um, so you sound I mean, you spend a ton of time in the bad country and uh, you were talking about how you're a backpacking guy in Colorado, So I'm sure that you've seen plenty of mistakes by dummies like Tyler and I or I'll just speak for myself, like me prey smart, you know, the different things. Um. For instance, I carried uh, like one of the half gallon sizes of peanut butter in my backpack one time on an overnight It was a big one and every even opened it. You know, it was like four pounds of peanut butter. So that was stupid. It's over for a two night trip, you know. But um, anyways, trying to read train anyway, Yeah, I needed to really train going to the bottom of the Black Canyon. That was a good idea. But so there's tons of those little mistakes like that. But whenever, like you see people you know, make a mistake with food or water or whatever it is, what what does that look like like? What's the most common mistakes with with those kind of things? Mm hmmm, well I think it one of it just starts the more this probably goes with that saying, but just the more you do it, the more experience you find out what works for you. Because even my my systems are different than you know, my my climbing partners, for example, we just have different ways of working with it. I think that um common mistake one less at least just a pet peeve, uh, is don't put anything on the else side of your pack. It's so easy to lose whatever it is you have on the outside of your pack. UM, whether that be an extra pair of shoes or that you're whatever it is UM water bottle. UM. I've seen people only bring one water bottle and then attached it to the outside of their pack. They tripped and it just hit their pack right and they just lost their only water containers for the rest of the week. So and then I just think that also just being very conscious of the efficiency of your system. And so the company that I've really fallen in love with recently is UM. See the Summit Um. They make some really um lightweight, very compactable to where I can take that for medy to leader pack I was telling you about, and I can carry a sleeping bag, pad, my clothes, everything that I need and I can be out for five days and comparatively, that's a pretty small pack UM. So keeping that weight down. And then I think of the other biggest mistake people made is um with their clothing and underestimating their one their socks and tow their the shoes that they choose. UM, you can just ruin your trips so fast with a bad pair of shoes and a bad pair of socks, and um, so that's something that I Those good socks are expensive to so it's it's hard to make that investment, but it is up If that only five dollars, it's going to make a break. You're a week that you've been planning for for months, and then it's it's worth it to me. So, um, those are some of the ones that I I've seen and try to avoid. Yeah, well, good tips there, and I definitely think we probably want to elaborate a little bit on some of those. Especially you mentioned that, Um it kind of seemed like you might be the type of person that takes two water bottles or two water containers. Is that the case? Yeah, Um, So I usually carry a bladder, um, like a camelback type bladder. Um, just so I make sure that I stay hydrated without having to take my pat room. For it's easy for me to just be focused on what I'm doing and forget to stay hydrated. So, um, I'll take a bladder and that's all season. If I'm in the winter, I'd use an insulated tube so it doesn't freeze in the tube. Um. And then I always, no matter what, carry a separate way to haul water, so whether that's a now gene bottle or a roll up plane, just because if my camel back springs a leak, um, I don't want to be just completely out of luck. And the other thing is I find a hard vessel such as a camel back is really a lot easier. It's in conducive for cooking. It's hard to pour water in and out of a camel back bladder and so you end up losing water when you don't mean to. And um, it's also easier to filter into a hard container. So I use a cataden filter that has a prefit um, I guess insert and so it just fits so perfectly into my nal gene that I'll fill that up first, um and not waste my time with the spilt spilt something, and just put it into the into the bladder from there. So I I do always carry at least two options for carrying water for sure. And you're are you kind of gathering uh as much water as you can when you have a chance, and and uh kind of making sure that you rash in it and save it for later. Um. It depends on what I know of my water access points going forward. If I know that I am approaching a place where i'm i'm I'm planning on camping next to water, then I won't necessarily be at full capacity approaching that day. UM. But if I'm unsure, then I am that Some people aren't that type of person. But I am the type of person to um over carry water UM because I'm unsure of where I'm going UM and UM. So it's heavy and so some people. And that's another mistake I've seen is people think they're out and like they're anticipating getting to their end result and then you come up on a microburst or whatever the cases, and they're out of water, and that really screws your next twelve hours of trying to problem solve. And so I've always kind of i'm I think I'm I trend towards more overprepared than UM cutting weight. Yeah, yeah, for sure, I would much rather carry fifty pounds with you know, an extra half gallon of water as opposed to forty pounds with only two leaders you know a lot. It's just, uh, water is something I can't do without. And I don't know if it's just because I grew up in the South, and you just got to drink a lot. You know, I don't know better. You know, hydration is important no matter where you're at. But you also mentioned, um, how like wrong socks or wrong footwork, footwear can really wreck your trip. Um, and I believe that, So, um, what are you doing footwear wise? Both, let's talk about sock like preparation, how many pairs you carry, what kind you wear? And then also just like what do you look for in a really good boot? What do you wear so stock wise? Um? Depending on what there's so manys depending but typically I bring a pair for every day, so I will change. I'll change socks every day. And then also, um, I have a pair of what I call sacred socks. And those sacred socks live in my sleeping bag and I never wear them for anything where they will get sweaty. They purely stay in my sleeping bag. Um. And I don't even like get out and walk around camp in the morning with them on. They like they stay there. Um. And that is the reason for that is Um, you actually can evaporate a lot of moisture um through your sleeping bag. Um. It's kind of crazy how that happens. You wouldn't think it would, but UM, it's a really great way to just make sure your feet have the recovery time, especially if they're wet from sweat or walking in creeks or whatever the case was. Wet feet are can be enemy number one, so you want to be able to get those dry at night. And UM, footwear wise, I am a little bit non traditional in especially horse packing land and that I wear a high topped, lightweight UM hiking boots. So the one that I've been recently wearing is the Adida's Tracks, and I prefer a high top UM for ankle just for ankle protection. UM. I have that experience with rolled ankles, so I I I sacrifice that for it. I know a lot of people are just like an altering type shoe tennis shoe type, but this either sue for a lightweight I can't tell you like ounces, but they're amazing. So a do trend away from like that UM gortex leather UM and I have it. It's a gor Tex mesh, which sounds sounds silly. And then in the winter, UM for hunting and packing, I use this company called Sneeze and they are absolutely amazing. They're made in Montana and you can get them in different heights. That is a full um leather boot and I am absolutely in love without stare boots. There keep my feet warm and I can ride and walk in them. It's pretty great. Yeah. Cool. So just quickly for clarity, the sacred socks are only for wearing it, not while you sleep. Is that right? Yep? They never leave my sleeping back. Cool. So do you leave them you roll them up in your bag and not or do you actually yep? Yep. So as soon as I like spin out and I'm getting my coffee, I put my next care of marking socks on for day secret socks come off and they just get stuffed into the bottom of my sleeping bag. Cool. So on that note, Uh, what does your sleeping system look like? Your bag, your pad, your your tent? What does all that look like? Um? I have a couple options. My think My most go to is I use tent Wise, I use um Oh my gosh, I'm gonna totally blink. Um. It's it's made by Black Diamond. It's super popular. It's a very simple tent and I'm gonna have to get back to you on it because I can't. It's the traditional one is blue and gray, so people listening might know exactly what they're screaming at you right now. UM. And then my sleeping system, I use a sami Um sleeping pad. It rolls up smaller than mynal gene UM and so that would be my UM installation from the gold and I you blow it up. You can either manually or you can just let it auto fill. And then I use a goose down Um dry Mountain mountain hardware sleeping bag. It's rated to fifteen degrees. I am the kind of person that can use that just being here in the mountains. I use a fifteen degree bag pretty universally. UM. Some people choose to go with a thirty in the summer and then a zero in the winter. Were less than zero in the winter, um, But for whatever reason, the fifteen degrees seems to work for me year round. And I might wear like like my hat because I don't like to be sucked into my sleeping bag. That makes me feel clost I'm a bag kind of guy. Usually, I think, whatever keep you warm, do it? Do? You just choose it and go with it. I do keep my layers in my back, I don't have my layers on, but I do keep my layers in my bag with me, so when I wake up in the morning, they're not freak. So when you do, uh, you know, say get to where you're going for the evening, and you got your tent and everything set up, you kind of got your sleeve system in order. It's time to make a warm, delicious meal and finally warm up after a long day. What are you doing for that? Oh man, it's gonna be such a boring response, but um, I'm a mountain house gal, so it's just so easy and UM that because comparatively they're lightweight and um for me, I for for better or worse, I'm an eater, so I can eat one of those by myself. So it's super easy contained um clean up. And so if I'm going out long long term and I don't have the capacity um to bring more just like osinins, like piecing t other recipes, that's just an easy go to for me. UM. But I do if I'm going on shorter like i'd say like two three maybe maybe even a Fortnite type excursion. UM, I do a lot of pre planning and I have these UM little tiny containers that I was like parade out all of my ingredients and then I pre plan and usually that's a type of freeze dry like I make like a taie curry and immutally carbohydrate based stuff that you can imagine one might make with hot water. Yeah, I think my favorite, my favorite comfort food in the back country is um taking a Brahmin pack and making it, not drinking the wall any of the water off of it after it's cooked, and then dumping um dried mashed potatoes on it. It just makes this super yummy pot pie type thing that I find to be pretty easy and um, pretty yummy. Yeah, it sounds delicious. I found those Ottaho and uh individual potato packs to be quiet handy. When you're talking about we're taking in some carves and calories and stuff. So that's cool. What's your favorite flavor of Mountain House macaroni and cheese? That's that's the staple. We've heard that a couple of times. You know, it's just like it's good. I'm a biscuits and gravy kind of guy on myself. I don't know if it's this the Southern roots thing or whatever, but man, it's get some gravy. It's pret does it does? It's good stuff? Um cool. Well, Uh, if you had like one tip to someone who is trying to maybe take that next step and live like a night or two out of the backpack and try it out, what would be your tip for that? Do your research and then just do it. Don't be scared because I think, um overthinking it. You know, think putting some effort and thought into it is essential. But overthinking it to the place of like, oh this is too much and never gonna be able to do it, it's um just ruining your chance to do it. So um, I think that just jumping in and experience is the best teacher. So if you're thinking about it, go for it. Awesome. That is some good advice there. Well, Caitlin, thank you so much. You're a wealth of information on this stuff and we might just have to have you on the podcast again because you're pretty much natural at this thing, so it might be hitting you up again one of these days and maybe to hear about how hunting season went for you. But if you want to uh learn more about you or right for red or maybe come see what your gym's all about there and Idaho. Where can they find out more about you? Um? One more social media, you can follow my handle it's caper and clove. You'll see random collection of things that I like, get to get out and do. And um, if you wanted to come visit Sun Valley, Idaho, all be at the Wood River Community y m c A Climbing GM more off the fire station. UM it's uh, it's a great place to visit if you're feeling like it and exploring the mountains divide hoo awesome cool, Well we will uh we will link to that in the show notes below. And again, Caitlin, thanks so much, and uh, good luck have fun this summer and good luck in the woods this fall. Great Sam to you, thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. See. Man, that was some killer info. If you found this interview helpful, be sure and leave us a review below. Can comment what you thought was the most helpful tip from this episode. For sure, make sure you also follow us on our social media platforms, Facebook and Instagram, and also subscribe on YouTube so you can see how these hunts turn out. Remember this is your element living that they're waiting the whole lot for that