00:00:00 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, this is the best news to ever happened in the entire history of of everything. Individual Meat Eater episodes from our new season I'm talking to TV show, not this yere podcast are available for instance streaming and HD downloads right after they air on TV, so you get a new episode every Thursday. There's no embargo, you know where you gotta wait a long time to get a new episode. It comes out on TV, you go to your computer. You watch it on your computer, no problem. Head over to meat Eater dot vh X dot TV to instantly watch the new season of meat Eater and h D. Use the promo code meat Eater Podcast at checkout and you get five bucks off any of our previous volumes. Go check it out Prime viewing for you. Hey, everyone, this is the meat Eater podcast. We're broadcasting how's say broadcasting, it's it's it's not quite the right word. We're recording for almost immediate broadcast in the Governor's mansion in Cheyenne, Wyoming. Um. This town is uh the place where Tom Horn drew his last breath. You gets some with Tom Horn. Tom I wrote about Tom Horn one time, and Tom Horn was this guy who got kind of caught up in the wrong century. He was a livestock detective in the late eighteen hundreds and he developed methodology that wasn't as acceptable in the early nineteen hundreds and got himself into a whole bunch of trouble. Was the last man legally hung in Wyoming? Um, interesting, ultimately tragic tale. But don't steal cattle is the Morald of the story there, right, And if someone does take your cow, be calm, be calm and getting it back. Um. We're joined. We have very special guests. We have the Governor of Wyoming, Governor Matt Mead, and we're joined as well by NiFi Colin Dave Wilms, who are natural resource policy advisors. Rourke Denver's here. People have watched the Meteor television show, will know Rourke, author of Damn Few, Making of the Modern Seal Warrior, author of a you just put the finishing touches on another book just this week. Really, can you tell us what it's called. It's a little bit of a fight yet, but I think it's gonna be called worth dying for. When's it coming out? Hopefully spring of sixteen. So worth dying for a Navy seals called to a nation. I think everyone in this room is gonna enjoy it. Hopefully that's tight. That's enticing, and joined also by by Janice van Janni Van's Wall, who tell us, um, and we're gonna talk today. I'm sure last level come up, but particularly I want we're gonna talk about a handful of wildlife issues. And what's cool about being able to do this in Wyoming is the Governor Wyoming, who's sitting here to my right, has what I would consider to be the good luck of governing in the state where you get to think about and deal with wildlife. Yeah, I'm on a daily basis. Well, thanks for being here, Steven Rooral. Quite a privilege to have you here as well. It's a it's a good day for the Governor's mansion and Woming me to have you both here. I appreciate you making the travels. Uh So this morning just highlighted a little earlier what you said there. I started to my wife and I have a ranch about ninety miles from here. It's on the Colorado Wyoming border, and uh I got I love to get up early in the morning. This morning we were able to see moose, we're able to see deer and UH. But the ranch is one of the holdest ranches in Wyoming. H. We've had it for about fifteen years. But the guy that UH started the ranches in Cape Boswell and k Boswell. There's a couple of books on one it's called Frontier law Man and he was a legendary lawman in the territory of Wyoming. And in the barn that we still have reportedly there is there was two horse thieves hung from that barn. So yeah, cattle rustling and stealing horses was not a good deal back in the day. So I'm glad to have you both here and UH eager to talk about wildlife issue, So thank you. Yeah. First starting, you grew up um in Wyoming in a in a ranching family in the in the Grand Teton area, right. Yeah, My great grandparents homesteaded UH in Titon County in Jackson commonly called Jackson Hole and homestead of there. So my great grandparents, grandparents parents, UH, and now my brother and my sister and I were all in the ranching business. Although I have this temporary jobs in politics, but we'll get back to ranch and I still work that same land. Now my brother runs the family ranch there, and uh, it's uh, you know, we're gonna talk about wh life, but it's a cattle ranch. And uh, my brother and his wife still raised cattle ras did my great grandparents and so on and so forth. And I recall, you know, growing up granddad, when we were eating beef at dinner or something, he would talk about what luxury it is. And he said, you know, when we were growing up, we never get to eat beef, even though they were cattle ranchers, because that was for people who could afford beef for sale. And he said, we lived on elk. Now you know, now if people look at it like that, they were this is the higher dollar item um. You do some hunting still, even though you have obviously a lot of demands on your time. You recently were involved in the in the one Shot Challenge. I think you were. Weren't you the first guy to talking about one shot challenge. We'll have a I have a friend, we'll we'll talk about it at some other point. That just tried to grab me another a sneel Seal sniper buddy of mine to come up and compete in that competition. And are still talking about for next year. So I think of the Colorado UH need help? I saw was the only team? Can you do governor? Do you mind breaking down with the One Shot challenges? No, I I don't. I guess started work. We would love to have you on a team. Let me just say I think it was three years ago. Uh for for the first time the One Shot, which is limited to eight teams, three person on the team. Uh, for the first time, I had a wounded Warriors team. And yeah, incredible because these guys showed up and one of the guys had a open sites iron sights and with the day before the hunt, you go to the range and you have these little competitions and I knew we were in trouble because I couldn't even see what he was looking at with my scope, my fancy scope, and he's hitting this thing. And it couldn't have been a better story. They won the whole thing, and so and every year since then, we hadn't wanted water team. But yeah, so the One Shot is um it's the seventy fifth year. This year's the anniversary the One Shot. There's been some remarkable people that have participated in has co hosted by Colorado and Wyoming, and there's a friendly competition between the two states on who does better fishing game agencies. Well it's it's done by Wyoming and the Shoshoni tribe. But the it's always been the partnership between Colorado and Wyoming. Other words, of Wyoming governor of the Colorado governor. Each get to have their own team, and so it creates some fun competition. And uh, it's a timed event. It's not a trophy hunt. In other words, Uh, you see how first you got a hit, and you truly only get one shot. Now if you wund your animal doesn't go down, you record to take a second shot, then you're out of the competition. That's counts. That's a mess. That's a mess. So it's how quickly, uh, your three teammates can get an antelope with one shot? No rest allowed? Um, unless God put it there. If you're lucky enough to be on a brush or a rock where your shot is, then you can use that, can't use this link, can't use the rest. And for a lot of hunters, you know they're very good hunters are used to using artificial arrests and it creates a little more dynamic when it's one shot, no rest timed event. So we had a good year this year. Uh, two out of our three teammates hit. Um. I was my third teammate was a Colorado guy, Todd Helton, and he came up and he was very into it and he hit his anilo but it didn't go down run away, so I had to take a second shot. So there was a Colorado guy that spoiled it for you. You know, ye honest identifies very strong in Colorado. He kind of came of age in Colorado. Roart. Now I don't work, people know where you live or I'm spending time and spends time in Colorado. Um. So who was the winner though? The winner? Uh, well, I gotta because before I announced the winner here, I want to tell you that. So Governor here Looper has been great about this and so his first year in the event, which was my first year, he was so impressive event. He put together a traveling trophy which is from Colorado silver and Wammy gold and uh, a very nice gesture. He's a great sport on the whole deal. But since the first year he made this, so five years ago, Uh, it's never left Wimmen's borders um so. Having said that, the Colorado team that there was a Colorado team called Mile High Shooters and all three hit and so they won this year. So Colorado did well that way. Absolutely. I liked that it promotes um taking your time and making a shot. Yeah, you know it's it's and I tell you know, when people who haven't hunted before, they're like, you know, any advice, I'm like, One is you're gonna get on animal, there's no question about. There's a lot of animal. Two is, uh, you've got to be patient, take your time. Now there has been like last year I didn't follow my own advice. I was on an antelope like within five minutes and it was I'm embarrassed to say how close it was. It was one of those there's no way to miss. I shot and animal to naim flinch. And so this year I did. I was very patient. It took me about, you know a little over five hours to find the shot that I wanted. I had some other shots, but I just you know, you want to make sure so uh, and the guides are great, and you know they they let you take the time and be patient and make sure you make a good, clean shot. That puts the animal down. So we do need to move on eventually. But so, how's this deal never works? Someone Actually I had a professional speaking event that actually connected me to a gas oil firm. The CEO of the company keeps a hauling home in Jackson, and he called me about it. I'd never heard of the competition before, and he said, you gotta look this up. Go the website. I checked it out, and so he wants to I think, if I understand correctly, they at the sponsor and kind of bit into the process or applied to be a team in the competition. And he asked me, he said, you know anybody that shoot suit state? And I said, I I know a few people I could do that, and so we we thought we might put a try and put a team to us. We missed this year. I think you want to try and do it next year. Based on this podcast, maybe I've got another avenue into the competition. So the life's looking good for the for the one shot right now? Well or uh, we love having good shooters on the team. So one of the one of the things that really makes the hunt specialists. So I get to choose one teammate and then the Association. The One Shot Association chooses a local guide and a lot of these local guys or have been on you know, they've volunteered for thirty years, and so see if when they get their chance to hunt, you know, I feel pressure, but those guys, it's at one time, once in a lifetime deal for him, and everybody in that town knows. I mean, they go back, Hey, I see your uncle hit, your grandfather hit, what happened to you? And so it's a lot of pressure, but it adds, you know, to add so much to it to have those those local people who volunteered. You know, I talked to a guy to day or less this year on the hunt who's been volunteering for forty five years at that event, and so it's a very special event that way. And then when those guys get their chance, I mean, you know, everybody feels the sort of the pressure, but those guys it's a big big deal. You said, they've been doing it for seventy years, seventy five year. This is seventy fifth anniversary. So it's it's a great tradition. And there you see, you know, I participate in the Grand National Quil Hunt when I can that came out of the one shot. A lot of these competitions around the country or patterned after one shot animal punt. Okay, I want to jump in. I don't. I don't waste a bunch of time here. I want to jump into it. And uh, let's start off by talking about the es A. Now for hunters, fishermen, people like to spend time outdoors. Um, the kind of the quickest avenue for you to get into thinking about the s A Endangered Species Act will be to kind of think about some of these things that are in the news constantly for the last There's some of these species that are in the news constantly for the last decade, and in particularly will will kind of focus on three big charismatic critters. Um. When you're hearing about grizzly bears and what we're gonna do with grizzly bears and grizzy bear management, the gray wolf. Okay, all the news constantly coming out of the Northern Great Lakes, the Greater Yellowstone Area, Northern Rockies about gray wolves, how we're gonna manage if we're gonna manage gray wolves. And then most recently, all things that you've been hearing about or should have been hearing about the sage grouse. Um, what we're gonna do about sage grouse? How are we gonna how were we gonna go about preventing the collapse of this? These are all animals that are traditionally game animals. You think things that have been hunted for will be hunted for again. And I'm only a little bit of groundwork. I want the sa IS just so people can kind of get what we're talking about when we start talking about where the s A stands right now and some problems that that are occurring around it. So this goes back, you know, longer and I've been alive. Nixon, you know, signed the s A in what was meant to do is meant to save species that were being uh driven to extinction through through factors involving economic growth and development. Okay, so human caused things. And at the time in the seventies and and prior to that, we were having almost like an epidemic of New Yor extinctions. And it was when they came in with the e s A as that we're going to prevent these things at whatever cost necessary, and by that I mean like whatever economic cost to try to halt these things. It's administered by two agencies, so the US Fish and Wildlife Service and then NOAH or National Oceanic and atmosp Feric Administration. Kind of in your day to day existence, you definitely have a lot more to do with US Fish and Wildlife Service. Like if you're a waterfowl hunter, UM, you know waterfalls managed on federal and state level. That's US Fish and Wildlife Service that it plays a big part in waterfall management, other migratory things. Um. They say this is a debatable thing, but it's it's argued that percent of the animals that have been listed. The animals that have been listed have been saved from extinction. Now that doesn't mean that that the act necessarily save them from extinction, but of the things that have been listened still exists on earth all right. When the animal gets listing, it gets a lot of protections for it. It's habitat, and it can curtail and change human behaviors. UM. When something would get removed from the list, it's because a handful of criteria are met, where you have of the population has reached stability and growth. You've removed or put a control on the things that were threatening in the first place, and then you have the stability a habitat quality. We list things that aren't just in the US. So there's two thousand species that have ees a protection foreign and domestic. About sixty have been delisted. Okay, thirty of the species that have gotten protection have been delisted due to outright recovery, all right. Um ten have been delisted due to extinction, though the bulk of those were probably already extinct when they got listing, Like it was, we knew that there might be some left, Like there's this bird, for instance, um ivory build woodpecker. For a long time, it was like, maybe it's not extinct, maybe it exists somewhere. And now it's relatively certain that the birds gone, so you know, it could have been extinct the time of listing, and and you have things like that happened, and in a handful of things were delisted because researchers revealed that the thing didn't belong there in the first place either because they discovered a new population, so they thought that they had some very limited number of an animal or a bird, discovered that in fact, that it inhabits these areas. We didn't realize that inhabited, it's not at risk of genetic extinction, souls pulled off, or as happens, sometimes you get better data and you learn that you were wrong. Animals are very hard to count, even something as big as a grizzly bear. You cannot get people to agree on population estimates because it's hard to count animals. Um So, sometimes new data will come in in a thing will get de lists. Some examples of things that you find on the endangered Species lists bald eagle, whooping crane, the peregrine falcon, key, dear gray wolf, red wolf, blackfooted ferret, southern sea ott or some quick pros and cons of pro the Endangered Species Act. Someone's sitting here arguing the pros that Dered Species Act, they'd be like, hey, it works. Thirty the species that have gotten listing have recovered. If someone was here to argue the cons, they would say, only thirty. We've had two thousand listed, so you've recovered one over the thirty year history of the Endangered Species Act. You' you've got one percent recovery. So it's not entirely working. Um that that's sort of a general background I want to focus in. Are one of you guys here comfortable giving like a brief synopsis focused on Wyoming to just kind of bring listeners up to speed on what has happened with the roller coaster ride of gray wolf. Listing do you listing? Yeah, well, I can take a crack out of first Steve great summary of the Endangered Species Act. As you said, in nineteen seventy three, President Exton signed into to law and the intent to save those species that are threatened endangered. You know, people don't disagree with that. I think, particularly you're in the West. We value of wildlife had adds for our quality of live But the gray wolf is a good example of what, in my mind is not working with the danger species that before I came into office, the state had struggled with this issue for many years, about a decade on what to do with the gray wolf, including the fact that remember that the gray wolf was reintroduced into Yellowstone. In other words, we went and grabbed a herd of gray wolves and put them in Yellowstone. So they're not worldwide, they're not this species that is on the verge of exchanging them, and they were available, we put them in Yellowstone and they are tremendous predators. And when you put them in Yellowstone which is National Park next to another National park, Grantito National Park, where you have all these game species that have you know, great levels of protection that they are naturally going to thrive, and they have. And so when I came into office, you know, we wanted them delisted. We wanted them to delisted, one because the population showed that they're more than stable. Two, when you have runaway population predators, that hurts other game species, for example, dear moose elk. It causes a conflict with livestock, sheep and cattle in particular, and so we wanted to gain a balance. We didn't want to wipe him out. We wanted to say, you know, how can we find an appropriate balance? And I worked directly one on one the Secretary Interior Salazar on that issue, along with the Director of the Fish and Wildlife Service, along with ranchers, conservation groups, environmental groups, and we came up with a plan that we felt very comfortable was going to provide the protection needed for the wolves, but bring in the balance and the ability for the State of Warming to manage that which belongs to the State of Warming, which is our wildlife um and secretary signed off on it. Fishing Wildlife signed off on it. I signed off on it, and it worked. In fact, in the time it was in place, we saw the wolf population remain very stable, even though we had a hunting season. And then a year and a half or two years after the fact, as always happens on these things, you know, we were soon and two years later Accord in Washington, d C said, no question, the wolves have recovered, but we don't like your plan, and so they threw out the plan. So now we're still in court on it. We'll see what happens at the appellate court level. But what this does is it leads to a lot of consternation and some pushback on what should be a good news story. Uh, the endangered species AC shouldn't be a bad news story. And you've heard, and I've heard, and we don't subscribe, subscribe to this, but this theory of shoot, shovel and shut up. And that's because in part, people get so frustrated with trying to figure out what do we need to do to actually recover a species? How do we reach the finish line? How do we get a species off the list after we have these eight conservation efforts and so um that's I think the gray wolf in particular, and I'm more familiar with Wyoming, although I know this isn't just a Wyoming story. It's certainly has been a story in Idaho and Montana, in Minnesota and other parts of the country. But when a species is more than fully recovered, you reached an agreement with all those people who sign off on these things, including the Secretary Interior, and you still can't get it delisted. That's a problem. And it's a problem not only for the frustration it causes, but it's a problem because if we're focusing time, effort, and money on species that clearly have recovered, what species are we forgetting about and we're not spending time on So it's not only bad in terms of what it causes, uh, you know, it's uncertainty in terms of our industry and businesses. It's bad for species we're focusing. You know, we've won the game with wolves. We should we should declare victory, and we should go try to find the species that actually do need help and focus on that one. But that's the question I've always heard about this. They had laid out at the time of the wolf reintroduction. It was laid out like what was an acceptable recovery? I mean, it was spelled out like numerically, Am I right? I mean we knew what recovery would look like, and that was pasted a long time ago. The same with grizzly bears. Might add that we've we've reached what would be recovery. Right, it's a moving goalpost. I think, what's that? What's that steak? Um? I'm talking to listeners more than your governor. What's that steak? I think with with something like the Endangered Species ACTU, I think that it winds up losing validity in the popular mind if it's seen as something that is a one way road and not a tool. I mean, this is a horrible parallel, but I mean, you know, if you have a problem and you go into the hospital and your problem gets better, you go back home. It would be like, well, no, you're gonna stay here now and live at this hospital because you had that problem at one time. And I think that that that's a problem we're running into with the gray wolf delisting. Is you have you've had a lot of people put a ton of time and energy into recovering this thing. And now I don't know. I think it's just I think it might be sort of an emotional thing where people have a hard time relinquishing the idea and turning it to state management and the thing that everyone should realize that game generally, like wild it is generally administer on the state level. So like here in Wyoming, for instance, if if if you have an Elk right and he's on Yelsa National Park, and he jumps a fence and comes on to National forest land and Wyloming and then he jumps another fence and he's on state land. He jumps a fence, he's on county land. Then he jumps a fence and he's in a subdivision. Okay, that Elk has throughout his journeys there been property like Chinao speaking, has been property the state of Wyoming. Various entities might control access to the thing, but the animals owned by the state, as ministered by the state. So when we talk about taking wolves or grizzly bearris and handing to the state, we're not it's not like this novel experiment. You know, you're putting it like you guys manage. We didn't manage all the wild life you have. You manage eleven big game species. I think, yeah, I think I kind of went out there to day my hills. Ten or eleven big games pieces are managed by the State of Wyoming. In the state of Wyoming. So when people here that you're gonna let a state draw up a management plan for species, I think that some people. I don't mean this as insults. I've lived in many urban areas. I think a lot of times people in urban areas they have concerns that they know about, you know, they have concerns that affect their daily lives, and they just don't have the time and energy and inclination to study up in this kind of stuff that doesn't impact them daily. When they hear that you're gonna give management over to a state, I think that they feel like somehow something strange is happening, right, rather than you're returning to a norm, right. You know. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean this, states do manage wildlife, and we have the expertise in it, we have the manpower, and we put their resources to it. And so you're exactly right. What is out of the norm now is to have species that are not managed by the state, for example wolves and greasily pars. And it's you know, part of the frustration is on the on the recovery plan for the wolves. It's the state putting in the money and the time to get it done. The Fish and Wildlife Service puts in money as well, but we get sued by groups who don't put money on the ground to conserve the species. They put money in the lawyer's pockets, UH and in the in the courtrooms. And so you know, just the millions that we have spent to make sure we have a very strong viomable wolf population that shows that it's more than recovered. Um. You know that is properly on the state's lab But we don't want just the burden of it. We want to be able to manage in wait, in coordination and in harmony with the rest of the wildlife that the state is required to and and UH wants to manage. From your perspective as someone who's dealing with the e s a NonStop and dealing with the wolf fishing, and I want to talk about the grizzly berry issue as well. But dealing with this, what are some things like, like, what do you feel are some things that could be done to make the process less? Like you hear the word ligigionous litigionous thrown around all the time, where it becomes, uh, you know, these issues become these like like a beach ball getting bounced back and forth in courts and there's no resolution. I mean, this has been how long this has been going on? Like we've like wolves have been genetically recovered in this area for a long time, a decade or more, and there's still no end in sight to this. I mean, how would you ever do you guys have ideas? Do you have thoughts about how someone would ever get it to be where there was just an actual end to the debate? What would that even look like? Well? There, I think there's a couple of things. One is, I think it's easier to figure out where the goal post is and how to get to the end by how you start the process. You know, right now, at a list of species is a relatively easy thing. I mean, the joke is you can do it on the back of a n app Can you send it the Fishing Wildlife Service and you're on the list and they already have six hundred plus on the list the Fishing Wildlife Service. So here's some things would be better. One is you can only list one species at a time, in other words, not multiple listings. I want to have all these things on the list one species. Before you do that, it requires state notification. It requires in the data that the states have, because we do have data, we do have the expertise. In other words, don't just throw something out there. Go ahead and look at what the science shows. You look at one species, what the science shows, You give the state's notice time for us to input so that when it hits the Fishing Wildlife Services desk, they have a proper vetting process. In other words, it's a package. They can look at it. They can make quicker decisions, more full decisions, rather than, hey, we're gonna throw this out there, see if it sticks, go through years of sort of discovery on what the science is there, then get into the court system, so on and so forth. In other words, there has to be in my mind, a greater threshold before you even get on the list, so that we don't waste time, we don't waste money looking at species that shouldn't be on there. But interrupt you real quick. Sorry, isn't it true that there the Fish and Molife Service is constantly getting sued because you're not listening things though they are they are, and that's why it just if I can interject here, I think the UH as you know, as my initiative as chairman of the Western Government Association to see what improvements we can make to the Endangerous Species Act. And if you talk the Fish and Wildlife Service now, depending upon who you talk to, I think they recognize some of their rules and regulations would help offset that challenge that they face immediately by not listing UH. And also I believe there's an opportunity for some statutory changes. It would also help support what Fishing Wildlife Service is trying to do and trying to do it in a proper way. So, I know, interrupt you, but but continue on with the unless you're done about ideas and ways in which you would streamline the process. Are you saying that you could remedy the situation up front by I would imagine too by clarifying the goals of the listing. I think clarifying the goals will will certainly help and what we're trying to do with my Western Governor's initiative is around the West, get ideas and input from all all groups, sportsman's wildlife groups, environmental groups, UH to see what we think we could do. Because reaching that goal post, knowing how to get there, what is the recovery plan is important not just to reach the goal post, but if you say these five things, are these twenty things will help preserve a species, I want to know what it is because we want to do that. It's the right thing to do to preserve the species. If it's just this nebulous keep trying this shotgun approach and hope someday a court agrees with you, then if you do get a court degree with you don't even know if you've done the right things necessary for the species. So anything we could do beforehand to say, you know, here's how you go about this, and here's how you reach the goal line that not only is better for species and better for businesses and industries, but it also allows us to go to the next step to the next species and started getting these off the list. Because when you only have since nineteen seventy three, a little more than one percent who have ever gone on the list off the list, that's the flip side of that, only one percent or so has ever gotten off the list. We're just adding to the list. What are we doing the recovery species. Every time there's a listening it should be viewed as a failure. Every time there's a recovery and a species a sound that should be celebrated as a victory and we should move on to the next species. You know, it's fake. As I remember with the bald eagle, it was treated as a victory. It was it was a cellar. It's great as there was a great news story. It's yeah, it's just boggled my mind the way that the people now view and look at and the way that achievement was reached. That you just I guess that animals sparks different emotions than what's going on with the wolf thing, where it's so many people are there's just a tremendous reluctance to say, Okay, in this you know biome, Right in this biome, we've achieved recovery. No one is arguing that you've cheated across the whole thing. But I'll point out of elk, like we're not having a conversation right now about elk being in dangered species of Elk habitat at the time of European contact has no elk, has no elk on it right now? Okay, so we're able to discuss animals in terms of with with a level of specific I don't know even know regionality is a word, but with specific regionality, you know, elk are doing fantastic in many places. They're not doing fantastic in the southern portion of my home state of Michigan, which is absent of them. But people can in that way comprehend like, Okay, yeah, you're hunting elk here even though they're absent here. But I think in a way that they look at wolfish and the wolf fish and they have a hard time fathoming that, yes, we have certain pockets where we've achieved objective and that isn't commenting on where we're at in Arizona in New Mexico. You know, I think that's another problem. Not I'd be curious from you guys. Have you have you found that drawing those borders in terms of state and national is that cumbersome? You know? Because I know that when you guys manage game like how many game units is wyoming divided? Into many things on the species. I was recently hunting grizzly bears in British Columbia. British Columbia has that has British Columbia divided into sixty management units. Okay, so they're able to make very precise decisions well, basically one sixtieth of the province at a time make very precise decisions about management goals. Some of those places have hunting, some don't reflected by what's going on on what's going on on the ground in those specific locations. And I think that that's a huge hang up the people have had about and I want to touch on grizzly bears to a big hang up people had and grizzly bears is, Yes, in some areas, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. In some areas we've achieved goal. Why not say that it's achieved here and then, like you said, move on to some of the areas that haven't right. I think it's, you know, when the grizzly bears and wolves are a good example, it's, you know, if we did everything exactly right. And why I'm going with the guard the wolves and grizzly bears, but Montana and idahope were not, they would still be listed. It's so it's it's not just jurisdiction by by state or county, it's you know, the area, as you pointed out, and so in this area, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, those three states have to do a good job for that Yellowstone ecosystem population on managing the wolves and so. But in that region, we know that the bears have more than fully recovered. And so does that mean we have to go and tell there's sufficient amount of bears and uh uh around Dever Denver metropolitan area. I don't think so. I mean you have to understand where there's uh the habitat for these populations, uh, and then make sure they're doing well in those in those areas where there's proper habitat form. So keep it in mind. Some of these scenes are talking about do you mind doing a similar break down you did with wolves on on the grizzly bear issue and where it stands and what it might mean for outdoors men and you know, people beyond Wyoming but certainly includes Ave of Wyoming. Yeah, well, I just you know, when we get when we had the wolves delisted, Um, you know, I view that as a great victory, not on any for us as a state, but frankly for the species of wolves. And as soon as it was done, we had developed through that process a good factual, rel working relationship with the Fish and Wildlife Service in the Secretary of Interior. And so as soon as that was completed, I to the sick Or letter and said, you know, now, grizzly bears need to be lead listed. And uh. In fact, I had gotten some letters about that time saying, hey, thanks for your efforts on the wolves, but frankly, grizzlies are a better, uh or a more serious problem in terms of conflict, in terms of not having the balance in the wildlife in the greater Yellowstone area. So we got on it right away. And here we are three four years later, and we see that the grizzly bears are not delisted. Um in two thousand ten, Uh, there was an attempt to delist the grizzly bears, and the court, as they do, say, well, it's pointed out to us that white bark pine populations going down that habitat, and that's one of the food sources for grizzly bears and therefore we're not going to approve the delisting because we're concerned that they're not going to have the food sources. And what we've shown since that court decision is the white bark pine has been going down in terms of available white bark line grizzly bear population has been inversely going up. Grizzly bears, as you know, probably better than I firsthand. Uh, they are they are good eaters and they can eat just about anything. And the grizzly bear population has continued to go up. And so as those numbers have gone up despite the white bark pine not being as prevalent. Again, we're at this point where there's no question that should be delisted, and I made that clear. The secretary cells are and I think it was two thousand eleven, and we're hopeful now perhaps at the end of this year that we can actually make some good movement on that. If that happens, do you feel that it'll it'll turn into the same never ending cycle of like retributional lawsuit. Yeah, we're worried about it because that's that's the pattern we see. And you know, I understand, I mean people have uh, you know, people get emotional about specific species. UM. You know, you don't. You don't hear people worrying about carp u. You don't hear him worrying about rattlesnakes. But there's some species that they get very concerned about, and grizzly bears and wolves because they view it beyond just individual species and it's iconic of the West and iconic of um. You know, people put spiritual value on on some of those species. I appreciate that they have that perspective, but they also need to know for the benefit of those species, UM, the best way for their survival is one public support too to have the state manage them, and three have them in an equilibrium uh fashion uh cones co exists with the other species because I can tell you that if you know, grizzly bears and wolves wipe out the entire moose population or elk population. And I'm not saying that's happening, but if that happened, I think it's something this this is me talking for like just observation and time of many people. I think in some areas with moves, it's it's precarious almost it is, well, we we see that. I mean, it's my exaggerated point was if they wipe them all out, that's what That's what I'm saying. It's not happening. But there's no question. We see the moose population declining, we see the elk being struggling. We see also you know, uh, you know, the numbers of human conflict in the number of human desks by grizzly bears is going up. I mean, it's not a big number, but the rate is an exponential growth rate. And you talk to hunters and maybe you've seen this as well. The gunshot as a dinner bell, they hear a gunshot, and that's why people want to hunt with suppressors in part because when they hear the when the grizzly bears here, the gun shot go off, that means there's a gut pile there, that means there's food there. And so you see the tragedy of people getting killed more and more by grizzly bears. So I think there is in all this you have to have the balance, and in today's world you also have to up management. And as you pointed out rightfully that historically and rightfully is in the state's hands. You know, we've we've touched on a couple of things, of things that I would think of as being undecided. UM. I think a lot of people are dissatisfied with how things have gone. There's no end in sight. It's been kind of a like a systemic failure. I would say, with with that, my personal painion about wolf and grizzly management, just how it's gone the way those animals have been used, UM as sort of pawns in the game about what our relationship is with the natural world. But last week, I think it's a week ago, and I might have lost track of time. There was a case where, you know, we had the Greater sage grouse was being considered for Endangered Species Act protection. UM. A lot of people agreed that that would had they gotten that level of protection, and they're an animal love of of the sage flats. Had they gotten that protection, it would have had huge economic implications. It would had implications for absolutely for hunters and fishermen, land managers of all sort industry across the board. It would have had big implications for them because had they gotten es a listing, it would have really had UM. It would have changed business in quite a few states, six or seven states. UM and that way, the ESA had teeth because people knew what to be afraid of. But rather than going down the role of listing or just acting like this is an inevitable thing, a bunch of conservation groups, I know, governor your own office, the office of the governor's offices of several other states really pulled together and did a dramatic turnaround on that bird in habitat as well. Can you talk a little bit about how that battle kind of took shape and how reach what seems to be like resolution And I know now it might not be. You know, the lawsuits will get rolling, but would you mind talking a little bit about kind of where your stance on that has been and what kind of work you guys have done there. Yeah, well, the you're absolutely right. If the stage grouage would have been listed, it would have affected uh many states, uh in a substantial way, but the West and and and frankly the country. And there I say the country because you know, if the bird would have been listed in Wyoming, and Wyoming, as you probably know, exports more energy than any other state, UM oil, gas, coal, uranium. Uh, we're really big in that. We export more coal than any other state, and had the bird been listed, you look at historical range where the bird not necessarily is now, but where a hit has ever been. And we looked at that and it would have virtually shut down all the coal mining and the state and that coal mining is it. Well, that's great for Wyoming, but we supply cold over thirty states and they get the benefit of low cost energy from that coal. The same with the oil and the same with gas. With what we were able to work out, rather than having virtually eight of the coal shut down, now we've managed it so the coal is not shut down. The same with oil and gas. About uh sixty six percent of the oil and gas production when be shutdown. Now it's limited to five. So that's on the good industry news front. But on the wildlife front, my predecessor, govern To Friedenthal did have very good job putting together diverse groups. I mean, you have Audubon society out there with ranchers, with industry folks trying to figure out how to go about doing this, how to not shut the state down, but at the same time, make sure you preserve the habitat for sage grouse so that we can know that they're going to be viable. And so this work started before I came into office and continued with my great staff while I have been in office, in cooperation with Fish and Wildlife Service, the Secretaries Office, many conservation groups, as I said, ranchers, and we came to a point, as you pointed out, where the Fish and Wildlife Service says, because of the plans that we have in place, that is the states that the bird does not it's not warnted to be listed. And this is a great victory, but it is not Uh. There's certainly the teeth was in the Endanger Species Act. But what we did, the model that we have set up here is not because of the Endangered Species Act, is because we're trying to find answers. We're trying to preserve habitat, we're trying to preserve species, and we're trying to do it in a way that doesn't shut down their states. We're not a zoo. I mean, we have to put food on the table like any other state. And so it I in terms of that bird not being listed, I think it's not only a great victory for the bird, but hopefully to answer your earder question, it is a model on how to go forward where you can reach the finish line with multiple diverse interests coming together and saying we've got to find an answer. Uh, it's good for the species and that's good for business. So I'm hoping one that doesn't get thrown out by the courts, and then too that we can use it to how to address other species in a grand scale. The good news on the stage Gross is that by conserving that habitat, we know it's also going to help other species that rely upon the habitat the same happitat the Savee Cross two that that's that issue would up be one of the more complicated ones that I've followed, because when I was first came when I was first introduced to the to the stage Gross issue, it was through a friend of mine who's a biologist with the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, and he came for and was talking about how catastrophic he felt that listing was going to be, and so it was kind of it was kind of funny. I think a lot of people have a hard time sort of wrapping their heads around the idea that like, here's the here's a guy from a conservation organization, saying no, no, no, this isn't the best thing. This isn't the best thing. Like listing isn't the best thing for the es A listing isn't the best thing for land managers. It's gonna bring a lot of animosity. This guy continued to hunt sage grouse through the whole thing, right, you know, because he was like, it's not a hunting issue, like I think that hunting is. It has big economic factors. It incentivizes people on land issues, and you wind up where if you had to go and explain to someone completely outside of this world, you have a very difficult time. Gone. Um, it's in the better interest to the bird to not get listing, and it's in the better interests of the bird for sports and to maintain or renewed albeit very limited through the you know, legal means interest in pursuing this bird, right, and it's gonna keep this bird sort of woven into the culture of the West and have it not become a spot of owl right right. You know. I think it's that is such an important point you make, because it's it invests people in seeing these species are taken care of, and you know, people would be so prize. If you said, you know how many saves grouse are we talking about where they you know, what are we down to a thousand or five thousand? Well, in Wyoming alone, there's an excess of a hundred thousand of these birds and we do have a hunting season on them. And people say, how do you have a hunting season, Well, it's we look at the risks to saves grouse and a hunting season is not a risk to the saves grouse because there we have such a healthy, robust population. But I think it's one of the reasons I think, uh, you know, on a broader scale, is so important to recognize the value in hunting and the conservation that comes from hunting. Not only uh, for those who hunt, but it is the sportsman who put so much back into seeing species, whether it's fish or wildlife, maintain these healthy populations. It's why groups like the Audubon Society we're leading our charge and trying to get us to this point because they saw that in the broad picture, it would be better for the species not to be listed. What do you feel now now when people look at the area and it's a complex arrangement, are you guys are you comfortable trying trying to like sum up what there recover I know even call the recovery fan. But now we have a quarter million we're a kind of quarter million birds and and the stage brush areas of the west. But is there like how would you sum up like what the plan is? Well, I guess at the core of it in Wyoming is uh, we have core areas, in other words, where there's high concentration of the bird, and in those areas there is much greater restriction than outside those areas. That's one. And then to UH, if there's a disturbance to a core area where there's multiple lex for example, you have to offset that disturbance in some way somewhere else that will benefit the bird. So at the key to the plan is the safe grouse core areas where we recognize there's high concenteration and birds and that there we have to be extra careful in those areas with what we do with any type of development. But there's areas outside there that would have little or no effect. And those are the areas so hey, you want to put in a new housing development or have a chance for an well and gas development because it's outside of those areas would have much impact on their habitat. We can go ahead and do that as long as we're ext are careful in these areas where there's a concenteration of birds and this this core of strategy we know is working. Now, there's a lot of variables that go into population, as you know, but we will point out the sense two thousand and thirteen, the increase in the mail lax, which is how we count birds as best as we can, has gone up exponentially. Just in Wyoming, for example, the mails from uh increased greatly in two thousand fourteen and from two thousand fourteen to two fifteen over fift increase um. Now, buyers can change that, and bad weather can change that, but the core areas strategy is working. Yeah, that that's a interesting you bring up, like the fires and why there is anyone who pays attention to who follows upland birds and anyway, you know, it's just the implications of of drought. An ill timed hail storm can put you into serious trouble. So I imagine now there's a lot of people are sitting around. We'll probably during like the laying time for the Greater Sage grounds to be watching the weather very carefully, because you could like numerically diminished the bird without any thing happening to habitat. You could also be like, Okay, now we're back down to you know, for factors completely beyond our control, down to a dangerous spot. All right, laying of water conservation fund? Can we can we ask you about this as well? We got any fight here. He's an expert on at least that was any major did in college, or at least that's what he told me just right now. Because this is the most this is one of the most important things I think that effect people like to spend the time outdoors, that that they've never heard of. UM. I'm gonna do a similar run down here just to give people up speed that it was. It's been around since nine. What happens, you know, offshore drilling, offshore oil drilling, So it's occurring, UM on what would be land. You know, it's like land owned by the American populace. Okay, but it's not deded to any particular entity. It's just like government land. And when people go and extract oil off, they're they're essentially paying a fee to the American people. Um. For the ability to extract that oil. Some of that money is put towards grants and matching funds to federal and state agencies, and it's earmarked. It's intended purpose is for use in public access and land acquisition. I'm talking everything from parks, scenic overlooks, beaches, mountain ranges, you name it. UM Land and Water Conservation Fund money has secured over seven million acres of land. This is not tax para money, Okay, I mean it's money that goes into a federal budget, but it's not coming out of your taxes. It's been renewed one time. So the first time they put it in, it was good for twenty five years. At the end of that twenty five years and got renewed for another twenty five years. And it just so happens that if you're alive right now, you have to be alive, you know, during one of the years when it would need to be renewed, and it seems like a no brainer that it would get renewed, but it's stalled. Um. It's hard to say. There are people who don't There are people out there who don't like it because they just have a general antipathy toward I guess the antipathy or the government owning and managing land for for public use, like that's at play, but large it's just kind of held up in budgetary squabbling. It's a casualty. Nifies that fair to say that it's like it not being renewed right now has more to do with just budgetary issues in general than it has to do with the Land and Water Conservation Fund. You know what, It'd be tough for me to talk about what issues specifically, you know, they're talking out of the hills relation to it, but it would be fair to say that, you know, as a priority, there's huge bipartisan support for reauthorization of the Land and Water Conservation Fund, and I think what you're running into is people would like to make sure that the original intent of that act is honored. You know, originally the Land and Water Conservation Fund, you had about six of the money by rule going to the states to make decisions on that. And and in Wyoming that's done things like you know, and in every community if you're listening to this, you've got a community pool, you've got a ballpark, you have nature trails, you have work that's been done on your you know, you've got your riverwalk. You know, all those projects are projects that you know, in every state, in every community there LWCF projects, access like LA or you see a little sign like public launch and everything else around there is private that the money that landing get donated. And I think it's fair to say that folks right now, you know, at this opportunity when they're talking about re authorization, they want to have a robust discussion about whether or not there really the intent of the Act is still being being met and ensured that it is being met. And I know, um, you know, Governor Mead and the other governors have weighed in on this and and said that that's important, that it's important that there's integrity and funding that there. It's important that states have an opportunity to do what we believe that local communities and states do best. You know, typically people what you're talking about species, whether you're talking about land, the people who live closest to the issues on the ground typically are the people who can come up with the best solutions. They can identify how to spend money in an efficient way. You know, conservation is a huge priority in Wyoming. We you know, Tourism is our number three industry in this state. Number two industry, apologize, agricultures are number three industry. And when people come to Wyoming, they come here to you know, they come here because of the lands that they see. They come here because of our outdoor recreational opportunities. And I think, like most of the West, we recognize that, uh, you know, conservation is a huge priority to us. And I think it's you know appropriate that there's a robust discussion on making sure that it's being done the right way. And I think that that's reflected in people's thoughts on Land and Water Conservation Fund, both on the amount of huge the amount of bipartisan support for its re authorization, but also on the fact that some members up on the hill want to take a good look at it and want to make sure that it's getting you know, spent in the right way, that that the dollars are going to where they should go, and that ultimately states get to innovate with some of that money, get to look at conservation he's been themselves, and get to have us say in how that money spent. All right, everyone, I know you're enjoying the meat eater podcast, and you're especially enjoying it because it's free. And to keep it that way, we've got to take a quick break to thank our sponsors. What what will happen if it doesn't get renewed. I think you have a short term in the long term, so right now the money from that there's a trust and the money's there, and uh, I think, you know, I'm not that's in the long term. Um, in the long term, the very very long term, it could go away. In the short term, you know, people are going to continue working with it on you know, the way that it is. It's interesting when you bring that up. The Endangered Species Act hasn't been reauthorized in many, many years. But you know, you can see that the Endangered Species Act, it's it's still there. It just but it wasn't but it wasn't set to be finite, right or was it. I'm not sure as far as finite. You mean the land Wanted Conservation Fund and years and they got renewed for twenty five years. So you know, Dave's gonna have to jump in here with me on this one. But in general, these you know, these acts, they do have a time frame mount them. They have a you know, Uh, I don't know if sunsets the right where because the act doesn't go away, but they you know, they have a situation where there's an anticipated date where you're going to come back and take a look at it. If changes are not made, it continues status quo. Um. But but when that date hits, it's an opportunity to take a look at those acts and to see you know, that was the way that they were designed, is that there would be changes to them that that you know, as we grow, as it's just you know, as a nation, you know, we update those things for the future. So do you think it's gonna get Do you think it'll I know it's hard to predict this, but will that funding come back and will continue to be able to make improvements with public access and and do these kind of things. I think conservation is too important to everybody in the nation that for for people not to to work on that issue. And I don't think any of us, you know, sitting around this table know exactly what it's gonna look like. Um, But I think that it I think I anticipated being there. Yeah. I hope that people take the time to notify their representatives and them know how they feel about it, because, like you're saying, it is just a by parton issue that it seems to have overwhelming support. You know, it's important for sportsman. I just wish they would get it, you know. I hope they get a squared away. I trust they'll get squared away. UM, run out little bit of time. But I got a couple of things Governor got. There's two main things. One you gotta make it that um that wilderness lands aren't closing nonresident hunters. This should be the main thing you work on. My crayons broke. There are thing it would be helpful, to be honest, is if there's a state law that everybody had to buy a hunt eat T shirt. Ya. Do you have any uh You've been quiet through this whole thing. You got any observations or questions? J honest? Not in particular, UM honest. And I lived the wolf issue UM NonStop through questions that come in from viewers of the show and listeners and people who are trying to make sense of something that seems like a pretty complex issue. And it is very difficult. I've found it very difficult to explain. My kid the other day asked where planets come from. It would be easier to explain that than the wolf fish you but you don't, so you don't have uh, you don't have concluding thoughts hounds. Oh, I didn't know we started on concluding thoughts. Well, yeah, I mean, you know, we have limited time with the governor and we've used it up. So if you have lay some concluding thought. Everybody gets a chance to concluding thoughts. It's it's a tradition here. Do someone else have them right at the tip of their telling. We'd like to start concluding thought. This is a man who hasn't spoken word. Yeah, do you have any thoughts? I'm pretty proud of of not having anything to say. That means that governor did a great job. Man talking right now. I used to be the you were you were one of the lead lawyers or the lead lawyer for Wyoming Fishing Game. I represented the woman gaming fish for a number of years. It's interesting stories. There were some fun stories there. Yeah, yeah, you got any concluding thoughts? Uh? But you can be you can take the form of a question. No. I mean you know when I when I hear the conversation and it does uh, it reminds me of of things we wrestle with in the military. And and then the thing that I love about this conversation is that you know, the state's autonomy throughout the country I think is such a critical part of who we are as a country. And and that the folks, as we were saying, the boots on the ground know what's going on in their terrain. I mean that the the number of times my teammates and I were in some austere, inexplicable cultural region in the world that that no one really had good perspective on other than the folks living there, and then us that we're standing there and trying to communicate that back to a leadership and say, hey, this decision we know needs to be made, and then get pushed back or some type of an argument for somebody that's sitting in you know, an air conditioned office trying to trying to tell you how to do your job would make you an absolute crazy person trying to trying to affect change that you know what it takes. So when I hear any issue that's coming from the folks that are, in my mind, the trigger pullers, the people that that live it every day, it's uh, it's unbelievably frustrating to see that those voices aren't the the absolute you know, flag bears, because those are the folks that understand that those ones that are there. So it's been a treat to listen to the governor talk about, uh this within this state, and I would I would imagine all the Western state governors know the exact same that they know what they need, they know what needs to happen in their own backyard, and I think the support needs to be there for it. So, uh, those are my thoughts. You know, I understand the frustration if I concluding thoughts. You know, I think, um, I think all of us agreeing. I think this is the exciting part when you start talking about these issues. I believe that there's wide consensus for the importance of conservation wildlife and opportunities to go out and joy it. And I think, you know, talking about these issues too often, I think we let divisiveness rule the day, and uh, I think we're we have a unique opportunity in America right now and certainly here in my own and we recognize that opportunity to kind of bring everybody back to the center and say, hey, let's let's look take a look at these things that are important to all of us, and let's make sure that they work and that we project into the future the values that are important to us, that we you know, make sure that our you know, kids have places to recreate, we have healthy wildlife populations, and then we have an opportunity to enjoy these things. And I think that for me has been the exciting, you know part and the and the part that where it's been a privileged to work with the governors because I know that that's uh, that's consensus around you know, the people that I get an opportunity to work with is recognizing that importance. And it's just just it's a really sharp group and it's a privilege to work on those issues and to work with him on those issues. Yeah, that's one of thing I see that I get this. This will stay in it as my concluding thought, it's two part one one um watching some of these issues, it is nice to see that there are some people out there who are striving for compromise and going for a consensus. I think that the divisiveness around some of these wildlife issues comes down to UM and I'm in many ways guilty this myself. Um, and I try to crack it all the time. It comes down to where you're putting together your worldview based on very limited conversations that you're having with a very limited group of people, and you're you, you end up existing in these little echo chambers. And if people would take the time and so and I'm speaking to myself as much as any when it's not preaching, but take the time to go and really educate yourself yourselves about issues like you we're gonna take the gravel thing. Really educate yourself about the history of that species, where that species exists, now, where things stand. Get out of map, try to study the map, think of population dynamics, look at numbers, look at trends, and dig a little deeper than what you know your buddy at the bar might have told you. Um, it's so hard to do, but it's so rewarding, you know, when you take the time to do it, Um, Governor, you get that you get to conclude with your concluding thoughts. That's the powerful moment. Okay, well I'll do my best. Well let me I I do want to say starting out, what how grateful I am that you all are here and are covering this issue. And Roork is great to have you here. Thank you for your service. What what a honor to have you here with us. Really appreciate that. UM. I think it's been well said. But you know, UM, we can get in those echo echo chambers. But I do think there is a common perspective that most of us have, and we think about the next generation. And I started this conversation thinking about talking about my great grandparents and my great and father used to say in Wyoming and where you find one bladed grass leap too, And he was a ranch guy. But it's a theme that goes beyond ranching, and it goes to each of us have an obligation to leave the place a little better than we found him. And we think about that and not only in terms of just our legacy as citizens, but we think about it in terms of our our work as parents. You know, I want this place is to be special for my kids and grandkids and so on and so forth, and all of you do as well, and so conservation is something that is critical. And as a state, with the first national Park, in the first National monument um, you know, we take that very seriously. In Wyoming, and as Rourke said, we think we have expertise on him. And not only do we just claim that it's not a boast. Look at the state of Wyoming and look and see what we have done and see our history a d twenty five years, and we put an emphasis on that, uh and seeking that balance and seeking the right way to go, because in the end, when we leave these jobs that we have, we want to be able to say, you know, hopefully we have done our part to leave that next play to grasp. Hopefully we've done that part so that, you know, fifty years and now my kids will be teaching their kids or maybe their grandkids that first hunt and the ethics that goes with that, in the appreciation for the outdoors, the appreciation for the West and all that it brings, not just to those of us who are fortunate to live here, but how proud we are to show it off to the rest of the nation and the rest of the world. And it's a special trust that we have and we're obligated to preserve it. And UH, nobody has a greater invested interest and seeing that it's done right than those of us who live here, and certainly me as governor. Want to make sure that I do my part in that. So thank you both for being here. Great issue. And I thought I was gonna be able to talk about my alligator hunt. I thought I was gonna be able to talk about getting sprayed with a skunk here a couple of weeks ago, living and ranch my whole life Nember sprayed by a skunk. I got just I was like ground zero pingo, and my wife wouldn't let me in the house right out here here, yeah, yeah, right out right outside our window. I was just where was security? That's a damn good question. So I went out the sliding glass door, and you know, we have these little rabbits and I like seeing the little rabbits and her little bush movement. Oh there's gonna be a little rabbit down there. Direct hit. So I come in the house. My wife's like, get out of here. And what am I to do? I'm I'm I'm homeless. Now what do I I got hose by my own pepper spray? You know, I really a lot of like is not automatic aim on those. It's just well it was on my belt. It was on my belt. I threw. I was going through some thick brush. This the the switch depressed the button. It's like, I'm just trying. I mean, I know, I know consensus is on pepper spray, and I know this is gonna drive a live people does but I have now if you factored the number of days that you actually spend with pepper spray, I have been witnessed the three pepper spray accidents. I'm just really it's like I've been charged by one grizzly and I've seen three pepper spray accidents. Um, that's an accidental discharge, isn't that? That's a d I'm telling you that I'm doing some real soul searching about my my relationship with pepper spray. I decided a long time ago about my relationship with skunks. But um, and you feel free to share about your alligator hunt. I'm not here to cut you off. You're here to cut me off. Well, I said that in Jess. But I did have all the hunting I've done, and you know the hunting I do with my daughter and my son, and it's all in the West. But I did have occasion to go to Florida once and hunt alligators with a buddy of mine who was raised in Wyoming, and then he moved to Florida and in his words and short order, became a real expert in alligator hunting and in boat building. And so he built he built this boat that you know, we're going across the water and it's you go out at night, as you know, and you got the bottom of the boat's moving and I I have a fear of snakes, and so as we're going and we get further and then there's bushes on this side. I'm trying to decide, you know, recompense, say, worst case scenario, do I get in the water or do I get on land with the snakes. I never never got that. And then you get out the spotlight, you know, and that's how you see him. You see there's red eyes and you have a crossbow to get him. And uh uh the guy was with he got he went back the next trip and got a huge alligator. But for me from the west where you get natural and then all of a sudden, you have spiders and you have snakes and you have glowing red eyes. Uh, it made it. It made uh, you know, a skunk look like just a smelly nuisance, not something that's so that's a long way of saying you're not wearing alligator skin boots right now. No. That was the other thing is, you know I talked to my wife about hey, can I go and then uh, I came back and I didn't get an alligator, And she was like, I thought you were gonna I was gonna get a purse. I was, what's what's the deal? I sent you out there for three days that came back empty candid, So I'll go back one day, um or you just did some hunting. You want to quickly share? They were really gonna end this podcast. No, No, So I've got a couple more shots. But a friend invited me that he played football out at at Syracuse was where I played lacrosse. He's been hunting a canyon outside of Steamboat up in the Zirkel Wilderness area for fifteen years. They've just more than I would have said, Well, no, you're right. So you're right, you're right. Nonetheless, this guy's had tremendous, tremendous success. You know, they've they've seen it and and rarely seen other people. And when we showed up for the hunt, there, you know, nine vehicles at this trailhead that we even give us access to this region. So I think he was automatically dejected when we got there that we're gonna see more folks. We didn't see any other people, but we also didn't see a whole lot of elk. We got one cow close and it was my first archery hunt, so I was I was very excited, and uh, I'm I'm definitely taken by it. I'll be I'll be hunting with a bow for life again. But I'll also go with other means. But I've got a couple more chances before the season. Did you you got a little little excitement? You know, it's fine. I've had several people take take me on hunts. They're like, you're not gonna be able to control you know, your emotions. I said, I feel like I got a decent shot. You know, unlesson elk shows up with a with an RPG, it wouldn't be the first time I saw that either. So we'll see what happens here. You know, you joke about telling people you're hunting spot um my brother hit one of his pack lambas is missing out of rigs, Idaho, and he was trying to get me to online. Uh, somehow let's slip that my favorite elk hunting spot was right where his lamas missing, thinking that the huge influx of people that one of those guys would turn his lama. Um, but it's still missing. So if you're all by ricks Idaho and you see a lama run around, its name is Maggie. Um. Put some uh, put some marbles in a coffee can and shake it and Maggie will come running up grab it. It's my brothers. He's offering a reward. Um. Thanks for listening in again, govern Mead, thank you so much for coming on. Very generous your time. Um, that's it. Tune in next time. 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