00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is the me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening hunt Don't Eat podcast. You can't predict anything. Now we can't be all right? Where is good? If I said to you, like, who not in the mood for Thai food right now? I just got real sick, you wouldn't be like, oh that's racist. No, I guess I thought like's like made. I just I didn't. I didn't think that the beer was associated with that. I would understand food, however, beer, It's like, why aren't you just cutting out everything Mexican? Right now? Yeah, this right here is the perfect snatshop of their relationship. Yeah, perfect in that I say, I say it perfectly reasonable, defensible thing, and then she questions it in that car with them, and then talking about about music. Don't bring music. Introduce everybody so we can continue. Are recording alright? Ready? Start? This episode of the the Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by our own damn book. Now everyone go introduce yourself and say your favorite thing about the Complete Guide The Hunting, Butchering and Cooking Wild Game, Volumes one and two. A lot of people don't realize what's your problem. I don't want to start. You're you're worried about that? Well, yeah, because that's like how you deal cards. He's gonna go to I was like, I'm the dealer, right, and I'm gonna deal to ni over that way. Not you. Hellen will deal to you. So a lot of people when you know these books exist, but lifetimes lifetime's worth of information Kevin Murphy's in the book, Yes I am, that's his favorite part life lifetimes of information, seven d pages of hunting how to ranging from ranging from navigating UH, permit draws, private land versus public land management systems and and permission systems, how to chop stuff up, how to cook it, how to think? How to read a landscape? Yeah, how to think? Yeah, I need to tell your favorite thing about the guidebooks. Wait, hold on, you didn't say your favorite thing. Oh, but the dealer never deals himself first. That would give me more time to think of my favorite things. My favorite thing is that Kevin Murphy. No, my favorite thing is that Kevin Murphy's in it. Kevin Murphy is, in my opinion, who's here today is the most uh. I think he's America's greatest small game hunter. He's a hero in this office national treasure. He is the world's greatest small game and encumbered by the need to go shoot things with big antlers on them. And I've got the trophy to prove that trophy. And they did put antlers on the trophy. You know. Fittex sent me this email said, hey, we don't have your address. We've got a package coming to you. I said, all right, my starter from a sixty six Scout's gonna come in today. So I'm sitting there waiting for that to come in. I come to the house. Of course, I've got a sign on the doors says put all the packages in the subar rout because if you don't, the dogs will destroy everything on the place. So I'm out in the subar rout and I come in and I expect this package the way. Maybe they put it in the f one fifty, So I'll go over there. There's a package landing there about the size of the starter in there, and there's a whole already torn into thing from the dog. Well, I don't want his dog shipping or what, but somebody's put it in the truck. So I look in there and there's something gold in there and I pick it up. That's not heavy enough to be a starter, says I didn't be made out of gold to be a starter. I thought, well, maybe it's something that Mary Jane is ordered for the house, some kind of gold ornament or something she's gonna put on the front door. So are you Does that mean are you living with U? We are living in sin Kevin m I've waited all my life to do that, Kevin girl seven. So I'm living in saw even though you're trying to make me an honest woman. However, I'm still living in scene. So I opened it up into my amazement. Here's this trophy says best small game show outdoor Sportsman channel there and I I was thrilled to get that. And it's on the man the mantel. It's gonna rotate between the man cave and the basement and the mantel just depends on who I've got over that day or that not. So we're gonna rotate it back and forth. It's gonna be rotating trophies. Yeah, so a little bankground. Kevin is the architect, was the architect. John he was the producer, but Kevin was. Yanni was just like a side note to Kevin's to Kevin's great effort in designing the perfect Kentucky small game hunt where we went down and hunted uh, regular cotton tail rabbits, swamp rabbits, silver silver, silvel just aquaticus and squirrel and we did a big old hunt and kind of highlighted Kevin Murphy's life chasing um squirrels and various rabbits with dogs, with various dogs species, did a hunt, did a show about it, cooked up Kevin Murphy type food like cat heead biscuits, for instance, and it was just this, It was this great show we did and then we got an award, um and and and Kevin gets the whole. We've got two copies of the trophies, but Kevin holds one of our trophies well deserved. Thank you, very dear. But back to get more to that favorite part about the guidebook series seven hundred pages. On the last page is a couple of dedications that you wrote. And I'm real fond of that one. So sweet. We should have gone first rate you had the opportunity. Your favorite part is the dedication that talks about you. Okay, I was just making that funny joke. Um No. I mean my favorite part, if you're looking at the holiest holistically like that, is that we did have so many experts way in, you know, so many people that just even use the word way in we did. Would you weigh in on Kevin squirrel landing with a doubt? Yeah, Robert Abernathy weighed in on turkey hunting, Remy Warren mule deer hunting, a handful of Ronnie Bam weighed in. Jay Scott weighed in so ship like for instance. Kevin Murphy weighs in on the fine art of squirrel hunting with a dog. Jay Scott weighs in on how to tell if the big horn of big horn Ram is bigg or not, which is not easy at all. It's not as hard as hunting squirrels with the dog, but it's not easy. Kevin, what's your favorite thing about the Guy books? This is a very long advertisement. You know. I had a friend that called me up during the last hunting season said, Hey, I've got a young man that I'd like for you to go out and take him hunting. He said, he grew up in a house with the non hunters, and he's very interesting. He says, I'm older, I don't have a whole lot of time. I said, I'll be glad to take him. But I said, the very best thing you could do for that boy is buy him volume and volume one and volume two of the guide book. I says. There's just a plethora of information there, small game, big game, whatever. If he wants to be a hunter, it is in that book. And that's what I like about it. It's a it's a guide that the hunter with with little or no skill at all can take that and start his adventures in the outdoor and have a head start over accomplish hunters that are out there. He'll take that now, Michelle, who has never joined us before, And it is in fact that a new employee um handling. If you write in an email or if you comment on something, it's and it's a real nasty comment on social media and it gets pulled down. Michelle. Hey, everybody, so introduce yourself. Michelle. Um, my favorite part of the guide books so far is just the breadth of recipes and being able to, you know, take a kind of meat that I'm pretty new to wild game and like a big roast, and being able to approach it and make something super delicious. Um, it's it's been a lot of fun digging through the recipes. Good. That was good, Helen. Mm hmmm, let's come back to you. No no, no, it is it that there's too many things? No no. I think to add to what Kevin was saying, Um, I think if you're like me personally, having never hunted growing up, it seems really daunting to learn how to hunt. And the way it's written is in a way that's like, you know, like a friend telling you, not like a textbook, you know. And I think also what's helpful is in the gear stuff like what you can buy now, like what to spend on and what you can buy later. Like that's that kind of stuff really helpful when you're starting from no gear. Um so yeah, I'd say that's my everything that it seems approchable when you read it. It's like, again, it's not some like scientific textbook where you're just like, I have no idea where to even begin. You know, something is basically as like what to put in your like med kit. I mean, it seems like common sense. But I think that someone who's never really been out camping or in the field, like it's very helpful. We're telling me today that you used it, um to get advice on your shotgun and purchase nice Britty Britty had a real love hate relationship with the guide book. Well, yeah, I had a very intimate experience with the guide book work working on it. Um. My favorite part would be the all the great photo organization and the way out because somewhat amazing, but the oh my god, hundreds and hundreds of photos. There are so many, and just to go through all of them and they all have like name is like d S c O five six seven, and you're like, wait, was it five seven or was it five six or was it to seven? Um no, it was. It was a labor of love for everyone I think involved. But um no, actually now I regret going last because everyone else took all the things that I don't wanted to say about it. A lot tons of photos in illustrations and like charts and graphs right well, And so actually what I was going to say was, I think the one of the most the first times that I really used it in one of the most helpful times was when I went hunting with Annie and we went out. We knew we were an area, in an area where we could only hunt um male or female white tail or male mule deer, and like we we like showed up to this place and like just right at shooting light, and there were just a bunch of deer running across this field and we're like, oh, Like we grabbed our guns and like ran out there, and then we're like, wait a minute, are they white tail or are they mule deer? And we didn't have service, but I had the guide book in the truck, so like we ran back to the truck and like flipped through and like discovered what the differences between the two, and we're like, those they are definitely white tails. Like we ran back out there, and then they had all jumped over the fence where we couldn't go and shoot them anymore, but at least like we knew at that point, and the guide book was really helpful and then almost cost those their lives, yes, well it did eventually later that afternoon. We just kind of waited for them to like come back over the fence. But that was a paragraph about patients. Have never found any information in there about patients, because I still just don't have that yet, so I don't want to play report, but you have it. Pleak guy. The Hunting, Butcher and Cooking Wild Game Buys one and two. You can buy them on anywhere you buy books. You can buy it on Amazon. Dirt ass cheap on Amazon. I don't know how they do it. Um, that's one of the most important things. It is very cheap, very raising getting for a gift to someone to give coffee, table book, whatever. If you've got someone out there that to hunter, wants to be a hunter, whatever you can, you can buy one of those things. And it's not gonna no Amazon, You're gonna get all. You're gonna get both volumes, like all seven hundred pages for less than thirty bucks put together. Now, what what's going on with all this turkey missing? This turkey missing? How do we know this would be the times that window? How many days ago to the turkey missing? Okur? Exactly one day ago for me, two days ago for John? Can you lay a little? Can you what can you give me? Can you set? Could you set the scene for me? Because it's her spot, This is the spot you pioneered on your own. Yes you pooed y? Okay, So we all told each other what we like about the guy books. I'm gonna tell what I like about Brittany. Brittany okay, having an independent streak. Brittany has access to lord knows how many people who would tell her where to go find a turkey. But I didn't want to do that. Ship. I wanted to go off and pioneer her own turkey spot. Told me about said turkey spot. I told her I would work. And then it goes out there and it's got all kinds of turkeys in it. Yeah, we're like, you found your own spot. We're on the road driving where were we going somewhere, driving to go and we're getting texts in Brittany and she's like, man, I think there's birds gobbling like many this king were like ship else because it involved like I was telling I was texting the story to Helen and she was like the way that you told me that, Like I heard Steve saying that, and like, so what happened was, Yeah, I found the spot just a lot of research on the internet. And then I told both of both you and Honest that like I found the spot. And then you said, let me get this straight, like you meaning to tell me that out of all the people that we know. I can give you a spot, I can give you roosting spots like GPS way points all this kind of stuff. You're going to go out and board your own. And I was like yep. And then actually, so that day I texted honest, I didn't text you. I texted honest like I heard gobble and I think I see a turkey. You you called me instantly because you guys were sitting in an airport like probably board waiting together somewhere. Yeah, but like you called me. I didn't even text you. I texted honest, and you called me instantly and you were like, here's what you gotta do, not even And I was like, wait a minute, can we just take a second to appreciate what just happened here, Like, yeah, you did what most people. You did what most people just like for whatever reason, I don't want to do. Yeah, And I mean it's it's still like no one's been none of us have been successful there lately, but I mean at all, but we've seen tons of turkeys. There is there a lot of pressure, not at all. And like the first time I went, the same things, they seem hardcore. They just seem kind of like they're just checking the area. They were like a kid who was bow hunting, who was with his dad. I thought that that actually had a rifle with him. I didn't even think he was hunting turkey. Wouldn't be a rifle, be a shotgun. He might have had a rifle to shoot at. He might have been thinking he's going to shoot a kyote or something. Um, did they look like, Yannie, did you see these individuals? Did they look like they knew what they were doing? They're passing through? Hard to say, I don't judge like that, but our tree hunter had shot three turkeys in that spot over the past. I don't know how many years that he's been hunting there. I didn't get that in. They had some very serious he was pointing out face camouflage on they like, I say, they see that they knew what they were doing or passing through. I'm saying, you could see a cup guys standing outside their truck and the trucks running and they're blowing crow calls down into canyon and be like, oh, they could have just I don't know, they might have been passing through, or you could be that you saw a mile away from any road carrying a bunch of dead birds over their shoulders and be like, oh no, there were serious turkey hunters. No. So the guy that we ran into basically the first morning we went to the spot, you honest, like when we first drove in, you honest, just started like you know, crow calling basically, and we heard like gobbls instantly. So that next morning, my boyfriend and I went to that spot. We got in kind of early. We didn't we didn't know where the turkey. That's like a whole I've lost spots like that. I know, I know, you tell me that it's fine. Um anyway, uh so we The way it happened was we ended up, unfortunately and unfortunately sat under a spot where like the turkey was roosting like forty yards in a tree away from us. Who who suggested that we didn't know he was there. Yeah, we didn't know where he was. He wasn't the one going off no, No, So we sat down there and just started calling. We called nothing. We waited ten minutes, we called again. We heard it instantly and we were like, oh my god, my god, and then he kept calling. We stopped. We were like, we're just not going to call anymore. And he would he kept calling. But then finally we were looking around and we're like, oh, he's right there and he can for sure see me. So like at that point it was like I knew that we were blown. And eventually what happened was that turkey and then there were a couple other ones over here that we didn't realize were there until they flew down. They flew into this field behind us, and um so then we ran into that guy a little bit, I don't know, maybe like an hour later, and he was like, yeah, I saw those turkeys fly off the roost. And then like twenty minutes later, you guys like you know, came over the hill, but they were like right over this hill and were just right over here, and he was like, I was trying to get your attention. He was just doing some calls. But from our perspective, I heard like hen calls and I was like, oh, that's someone else, Like I don't want to go and try it in their territory, like they're going in on saying he was trying to notify you about the turkey's location. Yeah, which I don't know how you do hear, I guess. So he was like a nice guy. Suspicious you're not buying it. I don't know. I don't know. He seemed like a genuinely nice guy. I bought it for sure. How old was he? He looks like he was maybe like early twenties. He seems like, honest, was your boyfriend with you? Oh? He's like, oh, you're usually run into like I was trying to help her out. No, he's a nice guy. If you could have seen what I was wearing, there's no way you could tell that I was like a woman. My whole like everything was covered up, you know. So, uh, then how did it come to be that you missed one? Okay, so I just had a bad distance judgment and yeah, so we set up um and like long story short, finally these turkeys started like coming into Oh yeah, this is like this is the next day. So we we like heard these goggles you know, from a distance whatever. We kind of chase them around, and finally we figured out like they were on this like I don't know, a little finger um sticking out into this canyon. So we kind of like crawled in and we spot I gotta describe it for you. I mean it's like this giant canyon at the head of it, there's just one finger ridge that goes out three or four yards little sandstone and bluff and then it just rolls out in this beautiful grassy ramp that when you go out to the end of it, it just drops off hundreds of feet and the canyon it splits the canyon. And it was the same place where we got into the burs the morning before, but just a beautiful zone meadow. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, So we like we set up and and later we figured out there were two groups like on the right and left side of like where the meadow kind of like fans out. But so we were thinking we were going to call in the left group because we actually when we had like first walked down there, Corey had seen like just like a turkey with its fan out. Corey, my boyfriend, I was sorry. So yeah we saw him with this with the turkey fan out, but yeah, I didn't remember that being his name anyway. Um, so we thought we were like looking at those turkeys, and then suddenly like these turkeys came over from the like on the you know, right side of like this sort of like edge. You know, there's a bunch of trees and then the meadow and so like first like these you know, yeah, because so yeah, so first like maybe three or four hens, you know, came out first, and I was like, I know that there's like gobblers behind them, and I could just barely see like in the bushes in the trees. These like first one gobbler, then two, then three. They were very hesitant, but they were like behind them, and they were sort of coming out, you know, very slowly, and they were grouped, you know, kind of bunched together. After it doesn't had to be that you were just there and they happened to show up. They were yeah, yeah, exactly. They were aware of the calling and well yeah they had their fans out. Yeah, yeah, they were fanned out, but it almost seemed like they were a little bit nervous and they were kind of bunched up a little bit. So like I wasn't going to take a shot until I had one kind of separated and then one kind of separated. But it was right in front of these hens, so I didn't want to take a shot anyway, Like from where they were, I was certain because like we had been practicing, we had been shooting, you know, practicing it like you know, thirty yards and again like bad distance judgment, I was like certain it was between like maybe thirty thirty five yards. So finally, like they were about to leave take off back down this hill, and I was like, I gotta take a shot now. Finally one like separated itself. I took a shot and then they just flew away and we looked and there was no like blood or feathers or anything like. It was like, for sure a clean mess. And then afterwards, after the fact, we ranged it from where we were and it was forty seven yards, so I don't know, but it was like for sure, you know, they were gone. There was no sign of any kind of like struggle or I don't know anything. And were you calling? We had been calling, Yeah, personally, yeah, I've been. I was doing like the I would do, like the box initial like box call, like kind of like see if there are any gobbles in the area, and then yeah, and then Corey had like the slate call and was kind of doing like a very quiet, like a much quieter call, and we were trying to be very like conservative about our calling. Is he is he uh an experienced turkey owner. That was his first turkey this was your third time? Was my third time? Yeah, um, did you have the Jake decoy out? We had the Jake decoy out too, so I would be curious and they didn't run up to that decoy. I was curious, like maybe if they I don't even think they saw it, and they didn't even give it a second glance. But I'd be curious that we had the hen decoy, like maybe it would have been different, maybe it wouldn't have I don't know, but um, yeah, that was a bummer. But it was so exciting to see them because all morning, like we had heard turkeys off in this sense, and then we didn't hear anything. And I don't know, Like personally, I realized, I think the more I like hunt with other people, sometimes I have a tendency to, like, in my mind, blame them for things that go wrong. I wanted to go over here, and you wanted to go over here. It's fault. But when I had by myself, obviously it's like all my fault and there's no one else to blame. But when I with someone else, so I often just like sit there stewing, like we could have done you know, we could have done this. My brother, Matt talks about that a lot because he hunts more and more and more, he hunts more alone, you know, as he gets older and the loneliness kills him because he has long periods of time, the loneliness kills him. Body doesn't um. He doesn't like that, like that were this sort of gentlemanly way where you try, what do you think right? What do you think right? He doesn't like he's want he knows what he wants to do, you know, and he doesn't want to have to act like he's open to someone. He doesn't want to pretend like he's open to input and engaging in that kind of conversation. Right from my like from my just personal experience being a new hunter hunting with more experienced hunters like the like the like the mentorship is invaluable, and I like really really appreciate that. But what I do wish I had more of was like given I would wish I was often given the chance of like, well why don't you you know, why don't why don't you make a decision? Like it's more often like I'm like, oh, I want to go check out this, and it's like no, no, no no, they're not going to be over there, like we're gonna go this way. It's like, well, I want to make my own mistakes, Like why don't you let me just check it out? Like maybe there are maybe there aren't. You know what I mean, Like is a less experienced hunter hunting with someone who is more experienced. Often I'm I just want to be given the chance to like do it on my own sometimes, you know, make my own mistakes the flip side, not the flip side. But another thing that could happen though, is you would have been bearing down on that turkey and your more experienced hunting partner might have went or some noise like that, being like no, no, no, no, and then wait wait wait wait wait yeah no, I mean absolutely filled that turkey. Right, No, you're you're you know, you're totally right. I mean I think, you know, I could be either situation. Yes, I wish I had that chance more often doing right? How do you do it? Shoot? Shoot? Right? No? I mean and yeah, I mean anything could happen. I think that's the biggest thing, is like anything that could happen. But sometimes I wo just wouldn't make my own mistakes. And in that sense, I did make my own mistakes. So when you say it was your third turkey hunt, you went last year. I went last year by myself to that spot, was just by yourself. I was by myself. The second time was with the Patelli's clan at that same spot, and then the third time was with the Patelis clan, Corey, my boyfriend, and Helen and John and that was the most fun out of all the time. He what was your take on all this? This is my first turkey hunt and everything. I'm obsessed with turkey hunting now, even if I didn't even get a shot at a bird, I'm obsessed with everything that goes around with it. You like it better and shooting cowell, surf caffer, like everything from the names of things in turkey hunting, Like the Honest was telling me, He's like, you know what the big you know, big male turkeys, look, they're called Boss Tom's roth trackers. Like you know the little dingle the little dingle bell that hangs over a turkey's nose and lays off to the side of his nose. It's called You love this if you think if you like Boss Tom, come on, you guys were educated on that the wattle no, no, little dangler off his head. Oh called it danglar. No in the guide book. I remember, you know what else is in the guide book? No no, no, no, no no snood Oh that's right, snoud hangs there's the little deally. Yeah, the very first gobble. It's just it's addictive. I felt like a cracky head. I was like, you know, you would hear it and then it would go silent. You're like, just one more couple, just want The thing is, man, the thing is, you can't you can't like explain. You could explain to those people. You cannot, like you can't go to someone like, hey man, check on this picture me and this turkey has shot. No, it's gonna be like didn't get it before. It was like, I'm going, dude, you know I'm the next guy that's in a picture of the dead turkey is gonna be me. It's like that doesn't speak to people. And it'll be all the woods and here and just like the absurdly loud sound of a turkey going off, and then all the calls too, because we were with the Honest and Is doing all sorts of calls. So the rhythm of calls, the different kinds of calls. I mean, everything about it was just it was amazing. It was so much fun. The call master, it's kind of a columnaster. Yeah, you made fun of all. I'm like a B. I'm like a B caller, but you, honest is like an a caller. Interesting you don't agree with that? Plays So does that bolt me down to be mines? I like, I can kill turkeys, but like I can call turkeys in. But I'm not like a great caller, you know. I think I think I have more. Yeah, I think I have more of a sense of rather than having just the tremendous vocabulary of turkey sounds. I feel that I have Probably I feel like I have a pretty good sense of cadence, what's too much, what's too little, that kind of stuff. But I don't have like a great turkey vocabulary. But the calling part is something like if I hadn't been with the Honest or somebody who had experienced turkey hunting, you could buy all the calls, but you wouldn't know necessarily. I mean, you can watch YouTube videos and stuff too, some good stuff. I feel that if you want to learn how to use turkey calls, man, I don't know if you honest would agree with this, but um, what one of working for me is the stuff anything about Will Primos instructive material because he is uh, he is just like a like a very good clear communicator and he's a pleasure to listen to, extremely knowledgeable and for calling how to well Primo CDs no bullshit. Last night, my old lady and I are in bed Bolden kids clothes, which I've been lamenting lately to you, and we're watching amount of clothes folding the like every night it's likely another basketball, but we're watching Bill pre Bows and uh. Numerous times I had to give Jenner for the old nudge nudge and be like, hey, keep folding. I know Bill is interesting at all, but keep folding. You need to go to bed. She's a pretty good Colors last year she's getting figured. Was she using a diaphragm or potton bag? Mostly? But Turkey Hounting is like it's there's so much strategy that's involved. You know, you think that you're like these dumb birds, like, but they're they're like their site is incredible and like also it's like chess. You're like, okay, so you know we saw one that was really close to camp and we're like, why don't we just go over there? I'm like, kill a thing and yeah, and Britney's boyfriend walked up the like path. As soon as he started walking, which was like pretty far from the field that they were at, they were like, nope, we're camp signing bullshit. It was windy's all get out, so we had quit it, like I don't know, six thirty seven had an hour. Figure, let's get some dinner. Hopefully we'll lay down, we'll go try roost a couple and it's thirty minutes before dark and I look over and like, what three golbers working up the edge of this PIDs or something core. He's like, I'm gonna make a play. I said, go for it. But if I was you, I would go that way first, about a quarter mile over the ridge and then come around on him. He's like, no, let's go round the road and cut him off. He didn't make it thirty yards away from our little group. You know that turkeys were comfortable with and they're things to have not have heard that. I'm like everyone else let's thing about turkeys. Man is like, uh, you'll have have that. They're out all day, you know, so dear, you can be hunt white tails, and you hunt in the morning, and then at some point the data changes, right, like the light gets a certain way, the wind gets a certain way, the data is feels like it's daytime, and those sons of bitches are laying in the nastiest hell hole right where you could walk ten ft away from him, and you're not gonna see him. Oftentimes it's like nothing you're gonna do. There's no tree you're gonna be in to see him. You're not gonna find them. It's like they don't. They kind of like cease to exist and you gotta wait till evening when they marryatt get up, you know, and make themselves approachable or findable again. But turkeys, even when you're like pulling your hair out, like they are out walking around. They are not hiding somewhere. They're out eating bugs, eating grass, walking around. So when you see one now and then, it's almost kind of surprising when you just like randomly happened into a turn seems so elusive. On this it was just like we just saw it. Where did it go? It was right and and like you could hear a gobble but it sounds so close. But it was like on the other side of the you know the canyon. Well, we saw last year in New Mexico something I didn't know what happened where we come and we were walking down a canyon and came around a corner and it was a tom in this where the canyon opens up and it's like a grassy bottom and that something a bit laid down and laid his head and neck out flat on the ground. He got down like he pretended to be dead. He tried to down. He laid flat against the ground, just melt and he laid flat against the ground, stretched his neck out and laid his neck and head down on the ground to hide, and then realized he was busting, stood up, ran off. There a lot of pusher in that area or something of every other kind of pressure that's so weird. In fact, there's uh where just based on all the evidence laying around, we saw where a lion had killed a turkey. I mean not a hundred yards from there. They eat ship for turkeys there, I tell you that. And the one that was there was paranoid man. But people who think it would be easy to hunt turkeys are based off of turkeys that are in residential areas. That'd be like saying like, oh, elk must be easy. I went to Yellowstone and the elk were standing around. It's like, yeah, well you don't hunt the Yellowstone. No, they're not easy hunting. They tune into whatever like threat exists, and they know about hunting their paranoid. I mean, I've been to that same spot three times now and haven't killed a turkey. Yeah, that's because it just takes a while. If you went out there with Robert Abernathy, you'd have a pilot, you'd have a whole pilot that turkey. It's just like it just takes time. Kevin Murphy, I have no turkey hunting scales. There's no doubt you killed turkeys, skilled turkeys. How win. Last Tuesday, LBL I got drawn for the early hunt for Monday, and Tuesday, my daughter came in from school, so we had a jeep driving exercise that day. The girl had never driven any automobile straight shift without pire breaks or without pire staring, so I spent the day with her driving the jeep. So I got up the next day to go hunting, and it was coming to monsoon rain, so when the rain came over, I decided I'd go to L B l And between Lakes hundred seventy seven thousand acres up there, and I decided to go out and drive around look around while it was raining. They finally stopped and I went up this row the Ivan Rogers Road, and I remember about fifteen or twenty years ago, I was riding a horse through their squirrel hunting and there was a like a keep back because he was talking quickly. I don't want to lose sight of your how you came to be familiar with this particular piece of ground you ride. But can you remind people about like what you're the war horse? Well, I've got I guess it was probably about nineteen eighty nine or something that was on a big squirrel hunt on foot up there, and I come on a gravel road and I saw these three guys come by on horse horses with their squirrel dogs, and they had saddlebags and there was tails just hanging out all of these saddle bags. You know, I'm out here walking, they're riding. I've got to get some new gear. So so about a year or two later, I got a job at city hall and there was a boy in there. Paul, Paul Howry you've met Paul was in there, and he had horses, and he no offense. I wouldn't typify him as a boy. Everybody's boy. Ball's sixty two now or something like that. So his babysitter when he was a kid was a horse. When he was five years old, his dad traded thirty five bales of alfalfa for a pony. That was mean as Hall already gave it to Paul. And everybody had ponies back in the sixties. That was the thing to have. It's iPhones now, it was ponies. So so he just grew up, right, he just grew up riding a horse there. So I was up there at city Hall work and he was the engineering department. I was in the water wastewater department. And his horse this and horse this, blah blah blah horses. You said vision squirrels tales and said, I'm gonna come over. We're gonna open up squirrel season in April. So we're going hunting this weekend. I'm ringing my dog and the guns. We're going over there. So we got out there and he's got two horses in a lot there's a little bit he pinto pony looking thing and a real nice saddle horse. So he puts me on this little pinto horse. There. I ride around a lot to three times, because I've only been on a horse maybe three or four times in my life, just never never been around onund him just a little bit, so I didn't fall off. So we go out there and I'm on the saddle. That's about I don't know. Some kids scattle right here. So we write it down the first hill, up the next hill, and it's wearing his big blister on my backside there. I said, okay, I said, I'm either gonna get the big horse with the big saddle, or you're gonna carry the gun. Well, he didn't want to carry the gun, so so I got on the big horse with the gun, and from there on out, I bought a horse, and we hunted hard from about ninety two to just within the last three or four years, and then just they got older and don't hunt as much anymore, but they go with Jodie. Jody's my new horse hunting buddy. He's sixty seven and Leon is sixty four with a double hip replacement. So that's they've replaced Paul pretty much. But we'll go for a half a day's twelve iyers full days twenty four is my buddy, Steve Doolittle sense when he goes hunting. He was a city planner. He was in city halled. He rears white start shirt every day, had the big nerd pack on him, and he looked like just a geek. And I finally found out that the only thing between him and the north pole was a bob war fence. He was grew up in North Dakota and he hunted and messed around. So I recruited him to go over and go squirrel hunting. And we were around there and he was trying to whoever's new on the board. We let them try to do all the shooting, and we said, you know, you need to bring a sandwich and some food and the twenty two rifle with a scope on it. So we'll stay out, you know, we'll do do half a day or so. So he comes over the house at four thirty in the morning. It's ire drive to Paul. So we get over there at five thirty, get everything saddled up. But so six thirty seven o'clock were out and about and it's one of those days when the squirrels were out. He's one of those rainy, misty days when they come out and they're low, and we were stacking up squirrels and we're trying to get Steve to shoot him with his ted Williams twenty two automatic with the the the optical about the size of a drinking straw on it. He says, it's just not fair. Boy. He says, y'all got thosehubble telescopes on. Y'all's good. It's not just through mac. So the war horse developed into we went back our grub on it. Maybe a baseball bat, so if they go into a hollow tree or something, you can just kind of ring it a little bit, beat out a little bit and which works. And I didn't see Kevin doing a baseball bat, but I just see him do it with a stick. The squirrel goes into a hole and just tap the tree and he would come out. And then then he'll carry a shotgun to one scabbard and twenty two and the other maybe a machiney or chopping as the army getting pretty much. Kevin is another trip man that blew me away. Was just cutting a long sawtooth briar, sallow tooth briar. So he'll find a big long sawtooth briar. It's like, you know, just vinds that grow and he'll trim it up and get the teeth off that thing, except leave a couple of teeth on the end, and you can snake that up into as like you're trying to clean the drain. Snake it up into a hollow tree and you'll bump the squirrel and he'll come shooting out. Lots of tricks, lots of squirrel hunting tricks. I wish Montana had more squirrel hunting. Correct me if I'm wrong, But I've been telling people about heavy duty squirrel hunters and like that. I feel like it doesn't really matter really what Like the total at the end of the day is as much as when you say zero got away. Is that true to you? Like you're kind of more You're proud of the fact if you can say zero versus five got away, but we killed fifteen. I like both, like a big body counting none get away. Now, the older the older I get, you know, it's more enjoyable just to go now and take somebody new. You know, that's never got to shoot anything, do whatever, and kind of show them some things said. Okay, and probably my pride of hunting is to see the squirreld first. You know, if I'm if I'm riding two rages over there and I'm they're looking, you know, I'm hoping this horse didn't run me under a tree limb or anything. So I'm riding there looking for him to move, because a lot of times that's when they all when you're riding up or the dogs are running around there, that they'll move. So that's probably the thing that I liked it that I don't have to kill any But if I can spot the squirrel first before anybody else, and I'm pretty good at it, then that's enough for me. Now I want to get back to the what what started this whole thing? But you told me if I can't remember the answer, our squirrel hunters kind of not just not just horse mounted squirrel hunters, but squirrel hunters in general. Is that kind of fading out pretty much in your area Kentucky? Or were you saying there's like more dudes getting into it? Um? Probably as far as the steel hunters when I was a kid. You better have your spot staked out before way before daylight, because you did, and somebody would come in. Squirrel season comes in the third Saturday, but in August, and that's traditional squirrel season for forever, and everybody in the country would be out squirrel hunt that morning. Now, if you can go anywhere you want to, there's not anybody out there that has disappeared. Uh, squirrel hunting with dogs has probably picked up more. Uh they're a little more prevalent out there. With the Internet, people can find out who's got dogs. There's a lot of competitions with dogs. Um. One of my good buddies from West Virginia, he had a buddy the other day and he said he saw it happen. He sold a dog for twenty thousand dollars squirrel doll the squirrel dog twenty thousand dollars, said some guy from down south, lots of money, didn't even hunt his dogs. He just boughted him to putting his ken on, paid somebody else to hunt with his squirrel dog. And I remember back in the eighties there was a squirrel organization, American Tree and Fight Association, and they came to LBF for like a competition squirrel where don't kill you just go out and tree. And there was a oral dentist there. He wasn't that hunt, but they told me about him. Said yeah, I said he's got twelve squirrel dogs and said they're all top notched, you know. And he says if he finds it good when he just goes out and by it. But the prevalence of squirrel hund with a dog is probably came up more. It's not that uh prevalent out there, but there is several several people doing it. But the squirrel hunt still hunters. They go out and slip through the woods hot summertime, waiting for the squirrels to cut hickory nuts, pecans. That that is that has gone down. Um, kids just don't do it anymore. You know, it's hot, nasty out there. They don't want to get chiggers on them, snake bit whatever, and they just they just don't do that. You know, they can concentrate, they concentrate on well you know then that's all we had to hunt. We had squirrel and rabbit and quail that no, no, no turkeysy no, speaking of turkeys. Um, you were out there day and passed through an area you had grown familiar with through your equestrian wanderings in search of squirrels. Passed through it one time, maybe twice. I went through their bird hunt one time when we had some birds in LB was some quail, but I decided that I was going to go in there to see if I could find where that a refuge sign was. It was pretty unique. I've never seen one like that, So you wanted to steal it. I wanted to put it in the man cave. So okay, okay, for prosperity, say that's right. So I went back there looking for it, and I heard a big gobbler and he out there out there gobbling, and I thought, well, I sit down here, because I had all my ear with me, Jim call. I had a call at a little box call diaphragm. All that, so I, no, I don't have I have no skills, I have no skills. Doesn't really bother me. So I got down. I could hear him gaming, and I would just call a little bit with him, and a little bit he would answer, and then I wouldn't hear nothing from a long time, and then he would answer again and I would call. But this one was probably for like two hours. He was like four hundred yards. I was done in the bottom, and he was probably three or four hundred yards up on a ridge in the LBL, you know the relief fire. He was probably like a hundred feet above me. Why why didn't you close the distance? Well I did eventually. I finally I decided that I would go in there to him, and went up through there, and I could still hear him, and I could was pinpoint where it was. Like I said, I was done in this ravine and he was up on top. So he had advantage on me right there. And it's pretty open. Our our our leaves were leaved out about the size of a mouse's here, so he could see. He busted me. He saw me coming up through the got busted. So you didn't get him, didn't get him. I'll be back though, I know where he lives. How long has your season run for? UH to about the let's see, I think maybe the fifth of May. You need to get back after him. I'll go back out there. I was just reading the thing in UH National Wild Turkey Federations publication that kind of like some alarming declines and turkey numbers around the country. Handful of places they can't figure out what's going on. But it might be that we like hit the That might be that we like hit the apex. We were like hit the good old days of good old days nineteen sixty four sixty five turkeys, Well, they impounded Kentucky like cropping numbers for the next ten years or so skyrocketed. They just come up there and then they started plummeting down. And I think that's what's happened to our turkeys. They've came in good old mother nature gives them the instinct to breed and multiplying. Uh, they produce offspring just left and right there. Uh. Now after they've got established, Uh, there's more predators probably hunting on them. I don't think that instinct is there. So we are we're at the not the caring capacity, but mother's nature's capacity of what to have in those game works. That's what I think has happened, because because I see it in my area and I hear a lot of people talk about it. Um as far as any disease or anything, I mean, we got turkeys everywhere. There's some ideas floating around about you know, some pathology. There's some ideas floating around about predation. There's some ideas floating around and it's kind of almost like a taboo subject with certain people. But over harvest that we're seeing the impacts of fall hunting where you're killing hens. There are many many ideas. I just think that it's just like that, like I said, you even pound any like whatever that first ten years ago, so your animals take off and go, and then after that it just it just seeks its own level of what it needs to be out there. There's no instinct to go out here and blaze new territory or whatever. They turkeys are there, they're just not in those numbers that they want to be. But we forgot, you know, boocoos of turkeys out there. I mean they're everywhere. You know, Michelle, what you think about all this so far? I'm taking it all in cool everything. No one's upset anything that upsets you, Okay, And then you want to ask about our ad. We keep thinking on it. I saw that you looked surprised when he said that someone bought up two thousand dollar scroll dog. That's surprising information. Yeah, but I mean I've seen him work on the episode. It was it was really exciting, Yeah, because a lot of times you're on the wood of some guy's hunting dog, and I'm just really thinking, Man, we'd be doing a lot better if this dog wasn't here. But those dogs, that's not true. The best names, Kevin, Can you uh tell me about all these big old crop ees you were catching the spring? Well have been two places Kentucky Lake, which, like I said, was impounded in nineteen forty five. I think the Tennessee River. Uh we got Barkley Lake that was the common river impounded in the in the sixties. YEA, hold that thought for a minute. But when Kevin saw a land between the lakes, it used to be land between the rivers, and it was the big juncle like an isthmus between where two rivers come. So those rivers flow into the Ohio. Right, that's correct. The Cumberland and the Tennessee flow into the Ohio as they approached the Ohio. They're pretty close together. Between them was an isthmus like or I guess yeah, an isthmus like feature between them that had small community is an agricultural economy timber. Timber agriculture pretty much in the river bottoms goes to the land in between. Was pretty much Rolling Hills, Uh, pretty much where Steele was invented steel. Yeah, but the Kelly process that Bessemer was an Englishman that supposedly stole the process from Kelly and took it back to England. After several years, Um, they were in a lawsuit and finally now you're looking Encyclopedia, Wikipedia or whatever, it's the Kelly Bestment process. So, um, a lot of small other small a lot of small arm furnaces. They had, uh small deposits of arn ore seventy You can pick up a chunk of arn ore and a creek bed or and a boar shout somewhere and you're just about think it's pure arn. So they had the arm there. Yea. And I brought a chunk of that home that you gave me. Uh the t s A guys are interested in that? H Do you tell us a media? No? I told him it was iron and he had a qualifying question about it. I can't remember what are you asking? Suggested he knew a little bit about iron ore, but no, that they just wanted to pull out the bag and ask you what it was. They had the timber there also for the for the charco They made charcode to ment them to stay only yeah, because there's still charcoal furnaces out there and um. And it was like a little bit like removed from because there was a ferry system. So it's like a little bit it's a little bit like a little backwatersh backwoods is And then they impounded those rivers. He created two big gas lakes, and then there was kind of a process of of people getting bought out and leaving and now it's just a giant patch of public ground about a d seventy seven thousand acres runs from from Kentucky. They're starting at Lake City down to Dover, Tennessee, with all the like the vestiges of habitation. Though there's still you go there in the cemeteries, old churches, charcoal. Yeah. Um. So there you're in those lakes fishing croppies. We fished. There's some our limit. There is a teenage croppie that you can then so ten inches, you know, just a little bit bigger than your hand. That's already a giant. So that's the minimum sized limit for Kentucky. So when I was a little boy, like the lake I grew up on before the crop, he's kind of they kind of tapered off when they killed all the ore lake had milfoil in it, and eventually got after the mil foil, which is an invasive plant. But when they got after the milfoil and got rid of it, it really put a dent in the croppies for a while because it took a long time for the native weeds to get established and get gone good. But that would have been a giant a teen inch back home, Yeah, well giant. We made a trip down to Oxford, Mississippi. Uh. There's four lakes down there, Granada, uh, Eden, Uh, sardists in Washington, and we we fished Eden and the minimum size there is a twelve inch croppy ship. So one day that's the minimum size of them. That's what that's what the minimum size of them for large mouth bass was. Um. We caught seventeen one day the boat I was in, and twelve of them were over two pounds. I caught two ship you know, I don't know, we just you know, we put them on them like that laptop computer. Yeah, yeah, that's about like that. Yeah, that's about that size. For really I caught to two fours. One boy called a two six was in a boat with me and they had the oldest organized croppy tournament in the US on Sardists that weekend and they called a three four I think on it. And the world record came out of Sardists or Granada, one of those lakes down there, and it is a five pounder really, so it's it's no doubt. I don't understand how that could be possible. It is everything is set up, you know what the hell it look like. Just they're supposedly flood control lakes and they were put in there, I guess to capture flood water that was going to the Mississippi River. Um. This was my first trip down there. I didn't get to see the whole lake situation. We stayed out in the deeper water uh fish anywhere from ten ten to fourteen feet pretty much what we called our creep, targeting old dead trees and shipped that are down on the ball. They all the dead trees and stuff. We're in the back of the lakes. They hadn't started to what they call the boke yet, you know, they getting ready to go on spawn. They were they were coming up and starting to school and the tender twelve foot water I think one day, the last day it warmed up, we actually caught some in four or five ft of water. But in the backside when the bode is on, they put on a pair of chest waiters like you go waterfowl hunt and with a take a jake po out there and a stringer and just waite around the slakes a lot of cypress stumps and trees and stuff, and they will just wait around and catch catch their limit. We had We had like two um in the lake that I grew up on where I did the crappy fishing I've ever done. We had two structures. We had a stump kind of off our dock to the right a few hundred yards away, and then we had a some Christmas trees we wired together and sunk down with some sment blocks, and those be the two good places to catch crappy until the weeds came out. Then the weeds and the spray would come up, and then at the mill foil would just break the surface of the water. We go out with live mentals and just knocked the ship out of them, or in the winter through the ice, go out at dusk and take live mentals blow of You almost want to find a U. So you have a live mental and a piece of split shot two ft above the men know, and in a weight that was effectively at equal librium, almost at equilibrium. It's buoyancy with the weight of the shot, so that if you blew on that bobber, it would go into water and you'd set that thing up out and you know, twelve thirtet of water several feet off the bottom and they would take it. And you just watch that float go. Honestly, if you picked it up too fast, you would not hook him. You have to watch that float just go out of sight and wait and wait and wait, and then pick up. They'd be there. Guy used to love that. Man. I haven't called a cropp in twenty years. That's too long. Damn right man, you were mentioned an Oxford. Um, yeah, I know you read a lot. Are you fire with the right I met this guy and hung out them a little bit, and he was a very avid like he liked the hunt squirrels with dogs. That the novelist Larry Brown not familiar with his. He passed away some years ago, but he was a fight. It's a cool story is Larry Brown was a was a fireman in Oxford and there's a big literary community there. Um. And then he he wanted to be a writer. And I remember he wrote I think he said he wrote seven novels before he sold one. His first novel was about a man eating grizzly and Yellowston National Park and he said, at the time I had never seen a grizzly and I've never been yells though. But then later became you know, he has many novels, and his novels has been like made you know in the movies Father and Son, Big Bad, Love on Fire, great writer. But he was a he was a like fish calffish, like fish crop. He's like to hunt squirrels. Many novelists, not many novelists hunt squirrels. There's a thing I found to be true in my life. Always like reading William Fauldener. And he had the war horses and they would go down in the river bottom saw hunted squirrels off horseback. Any stories in the in the stories. And they was clan of old civil wars, generals, colonels whatever, from the last of the days there and they would get the clan together, load up the wagons and horses and they would go to the river bottoms and you hunted one afternoon. We didn't do any good, but we want of the pause and hunted Ohire river bottoms. There two live there and that that place I always reminds me of what I think about William Faulkner deer hunting and bare hunting with with horses and dogs, then the river bottom. So he's he's my fault now. Not until later on. I didn't read anything growing up. I hated to read because they always made us read something that we didn't want to read, like you know, Shakespeare or something like that. So I was never never. My parents didn't read a lot. My dad in later in life he read just immensely there but just you know, if it was reading, it was something for a grade. And I was pretty much just say, blessed man. Maybe I didn't hear anything about reading. I had to study Shakespeare so much through college, through college and graduate school, and like what what I eventually developed was if you say you don't like Shakespeare people, there's this thing that people be like, oh, you know, you're not You're not like an intellectual fella. When I and when I'm older in life, like when I'm beyond my productive years I'm gonna write a book. You know, in Shakespeare, like when someone's mad at someone they call him a nave. People are saying nave. I'm gonna write a book called Knaves. It's gonna be in defense of not loving the Bard, and it's gonna be like a It's gonna be like a literary audite. Uh defense of disliking Shakespeare. Then, one of the main things I want to talk about is that I feel that Shakespeare stole a lot of his plot conventions from Three's Company, where like Shakespeare's comedies are like where someone overhears a little snippet of conversation and misconstrues what they're talking about. And I think, and I feel like he got that from Jack Roper and Mr Mr Furley. But uh so, how did you discover fault? And You're like, I'm just curious, Like did you? Okay? I when I was a kid, if I read like we read Hemingway, we read Old Man in the Sea, not because it was Hemmingway, in because it's important literature. We are like our old man read it to us, Remember all I mean, I can tell you right where he read it to us, um camping one time. But read it to us because it was a fishing story, not that it was like this is Heavingway and everyone should you know a great you know mind and literature and all that Pulitzer prized. It was like, oh, there's an old guy goes fishing. Let's hear what happens to him. Right, So when you discovered Faulkner, was it like, oh, there's a dude that writes about all kinds of old hunting ship down south or were you like, oh, I'm gonna brush up on the literary canon. It was just my accident. I found a book I think it was in a a discarday being at a bookstore or something, and just kind of thumbed through it and said, hey, this looks pretty good. And it was his book of hunting stories, The Big Woods, I think is what it's called. And did you or did you not know that it was the cannon like that it was part of the American literary canon, like it was part of like the literary tradition of America. I can remember that they made us read Faultner in high school or great school, but I couldn't remember what book it was. It was not a hunting book, you know, as I lay dying or something of that s worth there. So had you read them where the red fern girls? Oh? Yes, had you read Light in the Forest? Not that one? You know that one is no dude, that's a gutting book. Man, it's a kid. I think it's Conrad Richter was the writer Light in the Forest. It's a story of a boy who gets captured by Indians in the Eastern settlements and raised up by Indians. And then there's a tree he struck by which they need to give all their captives back. And so the boy gets separated and sent back to the settlements and then escapes and gets back to the Indians just when the Indians are fixing to go raid the settlements. And his him being for young adults, him being torn about, you know how where where he fits into this? Where he fits into this. It's a solid book. And then old Yeller, what else, Because when you look at cartoons and ship Man, cartoons have just eviscerated hunters through the history of cartoons, you know, like hunters are always assholes. But when you look at the American literary canon, it's just full of these amazing hunting stories. That's an interesting way thinking, I don't know, it's a good idea. I mean, like, like, why don't I like really, or why don't I like, Yeah, it's a good idea. Children's book children thought about that. I thought about that a whole bunch because now that I read two children's books every night, now three children's books every night that I'm home. Wait, so other cartoons that you don't let your kids watch because they have bats because I'm not like, I don't like practice censorship, you know, I mean I try not to, like like, I try to like our kids. You know, our kids already know all about penises and vaginas and sperm and stuff like that. They know about bad mopos um. They know what animals are bad mo pos when animals are not bad mopos And so I don't want I don't want to be like, uh what I see him watching something like they're into this show now they called Trapper Wolves, or they watched it a couple of times. It's like, you know, the hunters have Southern accents, real assholes and after these wolves and uh, they're watching it and I'm telling me, yeah, I said, you know, here's the problem with this cartoon man, And I tell him, but I don't like. But I don't say that we're not watching this because this doesn't agree with my worldview, you know, because I think like in some ways they're smart enough, Like there's obviously something I wouldn't let them watch, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna like censor them on that grounds. But so then do you explain? You do explain then, like why this is? Yeah, my kids are like very interested in hunting and fishing. Do they watch the show? Yeah, they love the show. I can't stand it. They watched on Netflix. It's like it's nothing worse, you know, when you'rey're supposed to be like they can only watch TV two days out of the week, like in the morning, they can watch the TV. Their mins real strict about TV and sugar. But in the great traditions of moms, right but now and then they'll turn it on and I don't like here and yeah, but um no, they're like way ass pro hunt. So if it was going to be that they weren't, then that would maybe her tail it. But I just noticed in cartoons, like the other day I was watching and I was on a plane and some gal in front of you a growing up to which was alarming was watching Beauty and the Beast. Why is that alarming? It just doesn't seem like a like a good use of an adult. She's really into Disney. It's like nostalgic. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't like it. I judged her. And the Hunter. There's a dude there who's a hunter, who's a real Aholes that's his name. It's not bad because he's a hunter, though, he's bad because he's a misogynist. He's vain. He's like very vain and a massogist. But they're like, well, how can we make them extra assholen? Have you a hunter too? But yeah, but then if you go look at the like the really high minded art, you know, they're really like high minded art. That the um fucking Mark Twain hook A very finn and Tom Sawyer, great fisherman, you know, Hunger games, great the people. Yeah, she hunts for deer, all sorts of food. All right, so there's a good one. I mean a lot brave, like the Disney Pixar film Brave where the young girl she's also an archery hunter. Alright, I'm wrong, I think so. Yeah, but you have like oh, yeah, you have all these you know, there are some good depictions of hunting, hunting for food. That's a good point. That's a good point. Um, what's next, Kevin. Kevin hunts and fish is more for a guy that doesn't get paid to hunting fish. You're hunting fish more than anybody. I know. That would ruin everything if I got paid. But it's kind of amazing how many days out of the year you're hunting fish. That's I'm very fortunate in my life. You know. I grew up with My dad was a state policeman, and there was always a gun, you know, in a corner. Thompson most submachine gun in the and it flows it. You know. We went to the movie theater. He had a gun on his ankle. It was just a tool, you know. And and like I said, we went honting. When I was a smile. We'd go out in target practice year round. Go to my grandparents. They did way out in the country, my mom's parents. It was a gravel abandoned gravel pit. Like there used to be thousands all over the United States and everybody would targe it. Every one of them was everybody. We're up in Toklaska, and I'm like, hey, I want to check my I want to send my rifle and you know, and he's like, hey, if you just go down a little you know, go down a mile out of town and just watch on your right, you'll see a little turn off. I mean, it was just wild ass to last you go. I'm sure enough it's a gravel quarry for shell casings and shot up TVs, but inescapable. You know. I just grew up hunting in fishing and my dad had bird dogs when I was a small kid, and the birds were kind of starting to disappear and quail quail, yes, And he got a squirrel dog and we just I just started hunting with him, and not as much as I do now, but then after I got older and stuff, I just enjoyed it. And this is the four deer in Turkey, before deer in Turkey, yes, we like, you know, the first deer I ever killed was in Florida. I mean, there wasn't that many deer in Kentucky. We were just starting to get them back. And what happened to the quail? Why are the quail gone? Habitat? Habitat is a lot of it uh, past the sides the apartment. I think there is something that came through. I don't know if it was West Nile virus that came through, and the nineties that came through. They were gradually declining. But you know, quail takes certain habitat where you have to have weed, seeds and briers. And with the farming methods that were coming in in the seventies, a lot of those, the little bitty small farms were disappearing. And I know and in fact that they were some of the Amish people live. There's no predators. They all have chickens. They kill all the predators. Quail could come back there if we had if we had a hate a pool. Jean stock stock to bring back again. He saw a quail on Amish farm. No. Never you commenting about how how much game was on the Amish property, because they have practiced. If they had different practices, dirtier rows, left more stuff underground, big gass fence, rolls full of briers and brush. And you said they're pretty hard on predators. Yes, because like I said, they all have chicken. They killed the predators that come in there. They have a small farm areas. You know, fifteen probably fifty acres would be a big giant farm for the Amish people over there. So they have the small little beaty farms, lots of fence, rows, defenses, and just you know, if they're gonna mole field, they've got to either pay somebody or hook up the horse to a mowing machine and mow it with with a horse drawn piece of equipment. And so they just let it grow up foula and there a lot of times, and it replenished itself, so they don't break break crop around up every year, you know, turn it over. They'll let it go back to to mother nature. And lots of weed seeds and briars grew up there. But I think the quail we It's after ninety four and I got on the internet a few years ago. I was reading in with some guy in Texas, and that's when he thought that he saw a big demise in them. Something came through in the early nineties and just knocked him in the head. But you know, it's it's this unbelievable that you could go out and see turkeys just about anywhere, and every word. If somebody told me, I'll give you a thousand dollars if you take your bird dogs and go out and and kill kill a bird, and if you don't, you have to give me a hundred dollars. I probably wouldn't. I would have to really think hard about it before I take that challenge to go out Quail lbl They used to be on you in the early nineties where there were a few covees still left up there. But now I know, supposedly down in the Buffalo Piens there's some in there, but I know of no other places that there's any any birds up there there all, it's pretty much gone. Um seventy seven, Uh, Mississippi River froze over. We had an influx of counties. The counties were gone pretty much before that time, so they came in in the seventies after the river froze over. The first thing they wiped out was the groundhogs. Remember you're talking about that, man. You just felt like the groundhogs vanished. They did. I mean, we've got some left around in the rock bluffs and are close to town, but that used to be the Sunday afternoon sport for a lot of people go out to the hayfield soybean fields, and you know, shoot shoot groundhogs. Um, there was a Um, that's what my dad he had a couple of armat rifles, two horning into two, which is equivalent to fifty. Lots of people around town had had groundhold guns and that's what they would do. But like I said, the counties came in with it. Just a matter of a few years they wiped them out. Um, we've got the influx of armadillos now, that's that's come in. Now Armadilla is pretty prevalent LB and now the last two winners we've had of not really knocked them in the head. Um, they're not not as prevalent as what they were. But yes, we have armadillos throughout the western state of of of Kentucky, pretty pretty prevalent. One up into tenn Illinois now ship and they first started coming in in the early nineties. I squirrel hunted over in Donovan, Missouri, over the Mark Twain National Forest. They started moving in over there at that point in time. Of course, you know, they're kind of an opportunities. They will eat quail eggs and metal arcs. We how the meadow larks that we used to have, they're they're not out there. You know a lot of our bird numbers all over our our way down. You know, historically raccoons which are now far north, but raccoons, opossums and have alna um are are all things that in Colombian times have have made mass northern migrations. I didn't know that armadillos were in there as well. They did this work with Burmese pythons that you know, everyone knows they through the pet trade and other ship got went feral in Florida and the Burmese pythons and areas in the Everglades where the Burmese pythons have really taken off, um, there is a virtual absence of a certain size class of mammal where you know, raccoon sized mammals, smaller smaller up to racoon sized mammals have like honestly vanished from some areas from from predation by Burmese pythons. They were doing work to find like what right now would be the northern limit, the northern expansion limit of Burmese pythons. And to test this they would build these enclosures, uh and put the pythons in there and let them win her. And I remember, uh, our friend Robert, Robert Abernathew saying he I can't remember what he said the line was, but it's it's people believe that the python would not find suitable habits, suitable habitat even into South Carolina. That's I've read read an article two on that count. But they used to say the same ship about wild pigs. So now you have like a handful of populations of wild pigs in Michigan. But other people say that a bad winner is gonna come that when we get some bad winners back like we had in the seventies, the little knacktor dix in the dirt and they'll be gone to I don't know, because they're sure like the snow in Siberia where they're from. Now, I don't see that happen with the with the wild ferrel pigs. But do you guys have many of those in Kentucky. We had some of the densest population in the US. They brought the gun shopping, as I like to call it, the helicopter seven hundred dollars an hour, and the first year they killed three hundred and fifty from the gun ship. And then what happened, and then the next year they killed, I think it was like less than two hundred than the third year it was like less than fifty. So they feel like they're getting on top of them, they are knocking them down. They're still there. They hired a professional trapper also, but uh, there was some swamp ground u u um what is that bout to shay in that area far west Kentucky hard to get into. Lots of crop land around and um someone introduced them down there and they took off. Someone put them in there because you still gonna be fun to go hunting for us. That's that's the story that I hear. You know, some states are getting out ahead of that ship, and they're banning wild pig hunting even in the absence of wild pigs, because so many areas where wild pigs are coming in. They're coming in because people are bringing them in to establish a little pig hunt, even thinking that they're gonna they're they like, they feel like they're going to contain them in fences, and they bring them in to sell hunts and and then not inevitably, but almost inevitably, some of those pigs get away and start new populations. So a way to get out ahead of that that some states are doing. It's just like banning the hunting gift pigs before pigs come, because that winds up being one of the biggest causes of them spreading. There's people trucking them around. I remember in Michigan, UM when they were trying to ban bringing in wild pigs, and there was a there was a spirited debate about what was a wild pig, and they had had to define it in various ways with colouration, hair growth, attributes, all this other kind of ship Because like every pig in North of every pig in North America, but every pig outside of Africa, um is just one species suits scraffa. So the little pink farm pig, right, it's all the same species. And what's unusual with pigs, I don't know if you talk about have we talked about this before. What's unusual with pigs is that is that the actual old wild version exists contemporaneously with the feral creation. So the cattle we now have are um, what's that critter? The cattle came from orc. Yeah, that's what they tried to grow in German a U R O c H. The oracx is what cattle were domesticated from but then the oracs is now extinct, so we have the domestic offshoots of it, but we don't have the actual thing. With turkeys. Turkeys were captured in the New World, captured in the Western Hemisphere, brought back to Europe, bred into the domestic turkey that we now think of as a domestic white turkey, which was then brought back to the US. So in existence in the US, you have the ancestral bird, the wild turkey, and the domestic spinoff the turkey. With wild pigs in all over years. I mean this animals native in Italy, certain Greek islands, um all over Asia, Eurasia, Russia, souscrafa, and then it was also brought by like Polynesians into Hawaii eleven years ago. Some bitch is everywhere, and it's all still just one thing, one species. So people talk about razorbacks or Russian wild boars. It's all sue scraffa. So it's hard to want to stay want to say no wild pigs, it's hard to say. It's hard to make a farmer's pigs illegal because wild pigs often are just escaped domestics, but they were trying to find a way to rule out the bad home raise um the like souped up Russian boars, and they got some resistance from like, uh, they got some resistance from like artisan butcher type guys who were trying to make who are fancying themselves making these products with you know, Russian wild pigs and doing like wild boar sausages and stuff. And they got um blowback from certain very high calibers, a certain very high caliber celebrity hunter who was selling wild pig quote unquote hunts and wanted to be able to continue to do so. And now Michigan has wild pigs and the shipload of counties. I'm pretty sure they didn't come in. They didn't come walking in from Florida. I'm pretty sure. In the said of Kentucky, if a pig escapes the farmer from the fence, he's considered a wild pig then and can be shot when he gets outside. Um. We have a young biologist that's in charge of the wild pigs in the in the in the state, and there's been some probably to three years ago. I asked him to come to our sportsman club and give a little speech about what I was going, and he went into great detail until that inn um went into detail about a lot of states, like you said, they're declaring all wild hug hunt hug illegal, And he had said they had trail cameras and pictures set up where they were paying people to trap the wild hawks, and they would actually see a group of hunters come in with their dogs, catch dogs, and the armored vest, you know, looking at their traps. So you know they were they were hunting that area, and they knew that they were there, or they had turned hawk loose or whatever. So, uh, when I was younger, I always thought that would be a great thing to have. But I made a couple of trips to St. Vincent's Island down and at La Chicola Musloon and hunting down there, and saw just how destructive the wild hogs were on the island, eat up everything, you know, everything on there, the sea, turtle, eggs, whatever, and just realized that, hey, that's something that we do not need. From time to time, they tried to introduce them into to land between the lakes on the Tennessee inn Um, they've got a trapper up there. Yeah, you know, they've turned some loose up they had some sightings. I didn't know where if you not state sanctioned, state sanction, I'm just just just Joe trying to get them up there. But that's something we do not need anywhere in the US. When my when my parents, I can't remember, it was right when they were married or when they were dating. My dad took my mom wild pig hunting and my mom got chased up a tree my pig. My dad was out of arrows, and I think some about my mom liked I don't know. I had to arrow them through it to them. It's something I can't I should have. It's one of those stories I should have gotten more detail on. Um, you're honest, you've been awful quiet? What's uh? Nothing? Just nothing stories, just your little brain. Nothing that was awful, anything, the nothing you're thinking about. Yeah, the pigs. I'm surprised how many people don't get like when we we post something about pigs and everybody's like, I can't believe it. There are problems, but you can't hold them. That makes no sense. I just want to like clarify how that works. Right, It's like they're they're banning it so that no one has the incentive to like bring any in or have haunts, or you can never outfit it or guide it legally. Um, So I don't know how else can we clarify that, because it just seems like we It's like it should be pretty easy to understand why they're just saying, like, like we we can't hunt them at all. A lot of fisheries would be in better shape if someone had a long time ago said it is illegal to fish for northern pike, because that would have prevented a lot of guys from saying like, man, I should bring a couple of these pike home and let it go on my lake. These are great, right, Yeah, It's just it's just how pigs are gonna get around. And I like, see, I'm on the side where I like to hunt wild pigs, but I do understand the problem. I do not want to. I don't I like to entertain thoughts of what it would look like if we were to lose our bio diversity and some of our ground nesty game birds and ducks and all the other ship. You're gonna get severely damaged and knocked back when pigs come in. But where do stuff gets interesting is in Hawaii. You have like no, no humans lived in Hawaii till around years ago, no people had found it. The first people that found it were seafaring Polynesians, and they brought with them dogs and pigs and and many many species of edible plants and got all this stuff established in Hawaii. So now we have like Native Hawaiians right, and Native Wilans are are an indigenous group, and they have sets of rights, and it uh claims to the land, to some of the land, and claims of certain practices. And it's insulting to them when some are insulting to I shouldn't say to them insulting to some of them, particularly a group of guys that I had spent some time hunting with, to say to them, you are a native people, but this pig that you brought with you is del eterious, introduced non native and should be eradicated because they think, well, if we showed up here together at the same time, how am I okay? But that pig is bad. So people do hang onto it um. And I remember even like a friend of mine in California who's a cattle rancher and has pigs and has a lot of pigs, and sometimes to a problem level, And I said him, if you could wave a magic wand and have all the pigs be gone, would you wave it? And he thought about and said no. He kind of likes them, just not so many of them. But with pigs, you don't always get to choose in the disease they can't bring. That's one of the big issues. He's rolling in poison ivy. I don't know if that comes the car they carry poison ivy. Yes, would you like to explain your your T shirt? Yeah, golf artsy you think so? Yeah, we're going for like a not artsy, but you know what I'm saying, a scientific plate. Does that make sense when I say that image in your head like an old book that would have plates exactly. Steve is going to post a picture on Instagram. So yeah, it's like a doozy small game design cotton tail. Now on the cotton tail. Why did you not spell out why did you not? Why did you do the abbreviation for the second part of his lenaean name? Well, you caught me off guard because I should know what the SPP stands for. But it's like the overarching species, right, because there's so many subspecies, so it's all the silver allogies. Yeah, exactly. How do you I don't know how to pronounce that word. You not to pronounce that word. You did a pretty good job. Then you got the old rough grouse with his Latin Linnaean name yep, and then we did choose fox squirrel. Did you know when you get into those Linnaean names now Linnaean, Now Linnaeus was the fellow that came up with species names, right, the Latin names. When you get into subspecies and you want to having to do three words. I just learned today that that's called trinomial nomenclature. Bison, bison, Athabaska. It's the it's the naming of subspecies. So you have genus as your first word, species, second words sub subspecies when you start tagging on and then it becomes a real unwieldy string, unwieldy string of words, and that's called trinomial nomenclature. I read it today. This is Steve at a party. I don't think I heard of that about thirty seven years clature I learned the day reading Nash of All Turkey Federations magazine that comes into mail. I think I think I did um but I remember seeing that and thinking that I was gonna remember it. Does it go any further down? Can you go more than try? I've never seen it. I want to seek that out. Yeah, quadnomial nomencla. So it'd be like a branch off of a subspecies. Huh um, all right, that'll make the lumpers freak out. So uh any concluding thoughts, brittany, Um, I don't know. Next time, I'm gonna range distance before I shoot. You use a range finder? Yeah, oh, I got a clearly thought about your Oh yeah, that's fine, that's fine. Um. I would recommend you go shoot a big piece of paper at forty seven yards because you might not have missed. I mean, you might have missed the old fashioned way by not having your gun point where you wanted it to hit. May just be good education, you know, shoot at fifty to shoot at as well, you know, because I can tell you if you were aiming, if you were legit aiming at his head, you damn sure hit that bird with pellets, but not enough to get through the feathers, would be my guess. No, it's just not you don't don't. You didn't do anything to him. It's hard because you didn't do anything to him. It's hard to get through those feathers. It would have made a noise. I've heard it. It's like not that noise, but it makes a noise. Just hits them if you ever Probably not, But sometimes someone takes a real hill Mary. At ducks. You'll see a doctor a goose and someone take a hail Mary abbot, and you'll hear it on the feathers on the breast. You'll hear it. But that doctor doesn't even change tune. It's just yeah. But it flew away. I'm saying she didn't hurt it. I'm saying if she was aiming true, aiming at its head, what would I believe happened was that distance and gravity, Right, What I believe happens is the pellets dropped will lost a lot of velocity in the upper part of her pattern. Probably still spattered the bird in the same way that I've been shot by shotguns really far away, and you hear it and feel it, but I can't even get through your clothes. Yeah, I mean, have you anybody that's done any amount of general general shotgun and dove hunt has been hit by pellets? I mean I've been hitting the bare skin with them and had it not even have enough ohm to go in. I mean, just think, just imagine, like all the things little kids play with and stuff like, there's an enormous gray area between it going into you and killing you and it like bouncing out. You know what I means. Just hit stuff gets hit by pellets all the time. We shad have baby gun fights and only rarely, like I remember Tris Night and I are one time. It's like we used to play that. You can only pump once, but if there are people were far away, you tend to pump a little more. And I remember someone storm Tris Knight and iers a will hide out. Tris Knight and I tried to storm someone's hide out who was pumped up for a long range shot and shot Tris Knight Nier and it hit him in the ball of his finger and exited out his finger. Now, yeah, I always think of when I think of BB gun shots, I would think of the Royal Tenant bombs that we were seeing that movie where he has like the who the how are we just oh yeah, okay, speaking of that. A friend of mine just tell me the story A long time ago he as a joke, picked up a baby gun and acted like he was gonna shoot himself in the roof of the mouth of it when he was in high school. Okay, in high school, but I had a baby in it. Yeah, And he didn't even know it. He thought that it was just air but no baby. So he thought it was just pumped up but no baby. And so he when it hit him in the roof of the mouth, he could feel the air. Years ago by and he's getting dental X rays and this thing is still lodging the roof of his mouth and just like, point blank, just did it pretty much. I can't I'm not even to get into the y in the world you do such a like whatever, right, I'm just saying everybody everybody was doing, like go right through his brain and lodging the roof of his mouth. Pellet baby gun baby. And they were like, it's good to know because if you were to go in and get certain scans and ship with magnets, you know, pull that thing right back out of there. Maybe I don't know it's copper, but um so, yeah, next time you shoot at a turkey, you're going to hit it. That's your concluding thought, um, if we can go back to squirrels for a second after that hunt, because yeah, um, I'm about to go on my first hunts, I guess in New York, in my home state. So I was wondering if you personally had hunted in other places outside of Kentucky, or like, what would be your advice for hunting in new areas? Hunting squirrels in new areas? Advice I've been Illinois, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Michigan, uh, South Dakota, try to get one in Africa, but I couldn't get a permit. You've got to have a permit to shoot anything over there and everything. But new advice or like a new territory, you know, advice for places that just go in there scout you know you're still hunting, I guess is what you're gonna be doing belief zone or what time of year? I think hunting season New York starts in September. Yeah, it goes through the end of February. That time of year. You want to look for the food source their masks, so acron trees, hackor nuts in New York. When when I was hunting squirrels in New York, a little bit. We're hunting on uh In Beach. Beach Beach is a very excellent Yes, see what's in season and look for the food source. Are you guys getting an egg land? No, it's like game. Well, first of all, in New York, we don't have a spot yet because we haven't met I mean, we don't have anyone who knows a spot or whatever. So we were just going to do our own scouting and find a place. I I got a body, I I got a couple of bodies. I need to talk to you for you. Britty doesn't like this kind of ship for eastern trees now, because now I will get you a squirrel spot. Does they have to be It does have to be what like what's your what's your rank? Like how far are you willing to travel? Willing to drive? So for squirrels. Yeah, listen, I'm gonna get on the phone and I'm gonna pound it and I'm going to get you spots. There are spots in this phone waiting to be had. But now I'm publicly I am now interest in going to eastern Montage. Honestly, I can't do that for you because they just figure that out. But I can get you spots, it won't matter because no one's hunting the public land for squirrels. But that's what's so like that if you don't mind, if if you don't, if you don't mind, I would get I would find you some I will find you some private land farms where you can add into the mix. And I think you also ought to explore public land locations too, because then you kind of own them, you know, because in New York they're like, I mean, you know, they're like city rats or something, so no one's to go in and hunt them hopefully. Yeah. I like your idea, but but I could also supplement your I can supplement your roster of locations with some private landlord tls. Michelle. I want to hear more about war horses in future. Do you like to ride horses? I want to see it happen. Um see the horses. No, we used to. We should do a gear breakdown of your war horse. Oh man, a graphic exactly coiled up sawtooth briar over. So, so your family stown horses, Yeah, we had to Shasta and there were quarter horses. Yeah, and Grandpa used to get out and hunt with with both of them for big game though. Yeah, yeah, a little bit um out in western Montana. And yeah I wrote them growing up. It was a lot of fun. But now they're long gone. Yeah they're gone. Still got photos. This is like so long ago that they're no longer alive. Yeah, so I'd like to see your setup. And if you had a horse, then you'd go get a squirrel hound. Oh oh man, because Yanni's really doing. Yanni's taking it upon himself to identify um, unknown squirrel locales in and um the inter Rocky Mountains. I got a hot tip. Just I'll tell you something. Anyone out here who's been reading outdoor magazines their whole life will know the name Jim Zumbo and uh. And turns out we have on good authority that Jim Zumbo is a very avid squirrel hunter. But he likes as he likes to clarify that he's interested in fox squirrels. M. You notice that he doesn't say squirrels. That was great. I don't even know where that came from, because we're saying by to Mr David Allen from the Rocky Mountain ELK Foundation. He's like picked his brain about squirrels. But he's like, I know, but He just like gonna start the Rocky Montain squirrel founding. He said, live in Billings, and Billings is kind of like the cut, like I haven't yet to hear of a squirrel around Billings, Like everything is still even there. And so I'm like, oh, hey, you're big hunter. You've been around the woods a lot, you know, living on the Yellowstone Corridor. What about squirrels? And he kind of gave me that I don't give a flip about squirrels, but you know who does, Mr Jim Zombo, let me hook you up. And immediately I had an email from Jim Zombo, which is awesome. I'll tell you what you need to do. This would be good for just America in general. Is So, the Yellowstone River is the longest free flowing river in the United States and the Yellowstone Heads. It finds its source in three forks, Montana, where the Gallatin, Madison, and Jefferson come together. Lewis and Clark named those three rivers. Madison was secretary named him after the Secretary Treasury Secretary State can remember who else, and and they form, yeah, who's Gallant? No, I'm messing this up. I'm talking about the head of the Missouri, so uh, here you are. But anyways, those three rivers form the Missouri and three forks, and the Missouri arch is way around and eventually, you know, eventually starts swinging down and where it picks up, the Mississippi becomes a Mississippi. But the Yellowstone kind of parallels it and flows into it. And of course the Missouri, you know, flows all the way across the whole damn country and and absorbs the Mississippi, and the Mississippi steals its name and it flows down, and so it creates this long corridor, right, and squirrels and other species I was gonna get at his like Walleyes. Walleye seem to kind of taper out right around where squirrels taper out. As you ascend the Missouri and ascend the Yellowstone, you get to a point where it ceases to be warm water a warm water fishery, and becomes a cold water fishery. Right, So if you go to Livingstone on the Yellowstone, it's child country. You go down to buildings, and you're in that middle ground. You go east to buildings, you're down into small mouth sager Walleye channel cats, and I feel like squirrels and walleyes must need each other. No, I'm joking, but they like they peter out in the same place. And what Yani's trying to do is he's trying to explore the western terminus of fox squirrels who have headed up the Yellowstone following the the Riparian area there because they live in the cottonwood and Russian olive groves. And so far he's got them located in Forsyth, Montana. I have it on good authority that they're not in Big Timber. But here's where the picture gets weird. They're in Missoula, Montana. That's that's that's like a weird jumping introduction. And they're in there, in there in the residential areas there where people have planted ornamentals, so ornamentals they're being maples and oaks and ship like that, where there's like a lot of non native trees. But in those places where they're living on native trees like native habitat, he's trying to find them closer to his home. Is this right, that's right? I went I want in on that when he finds it. Oh we never finished up about your so, yeah, did we fished about your shirt. It's a new hunt each shirt, Kevin, Do have a favorite subspecies of squirrel? Oh, that's not how that works. Oh, it's not. Those are species. Oh they're species. There's um, what the gray squirrel and then the black squirrel. That's well, the black squirrels are great. Gray squirrels, pine squirrels out there, red squirrels called red squirrels, some people called pine squirrels. Uh. We have some up in the mountains. Ferry doodles, timber doodles, timber, timber, timber when it's a timber doodle is uh? Oh, what do we call them? Timber or something? I can't think. We've got some of them in the in the eastern part of the state. Yes, yeah, the pine squirrel. But we've got fox squirrels and gray squirrels in the western end. But do you have a concluding thought. Concluding thought, Oh, if you get a chance to take someone new out hunting and fishing, and if you've got any institutional knowledge in your head, don't let it go to you with the grave. Share that with someone. Good words, Kevin, Yeah, should no, no, after that, yeah, I reiterate, don't take it to the grave, and thank you for listening,

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