00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is the meat Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything, all right, First thing I want to do is um Garrett, act like I act like I all of a sudden just fell over dead and and it was just silence, and you had to be like and you all said it to step into the role of being the host. The reason I'm doing this because this is the first one, honest, but tell us, this is the first met Eater podcast that y honest who tells was not here because now he's now got a crippled up knee. He feels that though he's gonna get better, I've written him off. It just seems to me once someone's knee goes bad, it's just they're done. So here I am, I've fallen over dead. What would you How would you proceed? I'd say a moment of silence for Yanni's knee, and then I'd ask Rick man, I couldn't do it. I just you wouldn't just jump into like, no, you'd make me do it, Garrett. I'm totally unqualified. So but it began. The conversation began then that that was the voice of Garrett Smith, and then and then as though dealing poker, the next Corey, and it just introduced say say a few things about yourself. My name is Corey kas Merrick. Sometimes catch marks, sometimes catch mark like depending on how rushing they're feeling or polish. So yeah, this is my i'd say seventh meat eater. As far as working with these guys as a cameraman, but uh, tell him some of the other camera man, um. I do the show called mountain Man where you fall around our mountain man's excuse me, where we fall around guys living up in the woods, up in the mountains, killing animals for food. I do snowboard, extreme sport, filming, some documentaries here and their commercial work. You worked out that new movie on Brandon On Brandon, Yeah, we took sixteen wild Mustangs from Mexico all the way up to Canada. Took us five and a half months. I rode about thousand miles of the ride. Yeah. Yeah, I learned a lot about horses and you were a ride. I rode, yeah, holding from the were you trying to film from the horse? We did? We did film with a little DSLR camera off the horse and then we'd get off the horse, run ahead about until we were out of breath, you know, set up a shot and they ride by and then we have to catch up with them. And we know we did that for three thousand miles and my buddy Phil bear aboo and uh no, it is a good success. You guys got to check it out. It's on Netflix right now. Philip Phil barbou film three Memter shows he did. No, I've seen it. I've seen it on Netflix and I haven't seen it yet, but I've seen the got like heavy treatment on Netflix. I'm excited to see it. Man, I was, I've been. I've had it queued up a couple of times and like kind of you can't go wrong. But now I'm I'm going home directly to watch it. Man, does the movie does it take a pro wild horse or or or or does it does it try to stay like how does it fall on the political? Not the political, but you know, like the there's a debate about wild horse where some people feel like we should treat him like a native wild animal and some people feel like it's feral livestock. We're right down that middle line there, they explained. They explained that debate. Everyone gets there, you know, a fair share as far as like debating their side. And I think we did a good job at keeping it right down the middle, explain both sides of the story and in the end, you know, you kind of make up the decision about you know, I guess there is no end for the horse, and like there's it's an open ended story. Really, I think we need to hunt him. Yeah, I need them now. Speaking of that, we're up on Prince Wales Island right now. I want to get back to that. I definitely get back to that. It's not like this world. I want to get back there. That's real important that you just said that we're on Prince Will's Island. We're just out running shrimp traps tonight and Moe is naming off a number of places where he's eating the horse. Yeah, I mean enjoyed it. I was getting to that, but I was just kind of kind of easy into it, you know, bridging off that I'm an aggressive host. It's an aggressive host. It's called a segue and editing. I was kind of trying to build a nice natural one. Oh sorry, Um yeah, I'm Morgan or mo Fallon. Um, and uh, I've been what we the first time we worked together was almost eight years ago now on a number of little pilots as you were married or not married. That's how I would know when it was you were married. A yeah, you were always married. Um. But we did a number of little pilots together as we kind of geared up for figuring out what would be a show, you know, kind of based on I guess your philosophies and lifestyle and you know stuff and um. And then did a show for a travel channel together, UM, for which I was the director of photography, and then moved on to start doing these the Meat Eater shows, which I was originally the director of photography, and then I kind of segued into directing, which was the beginning of me starting to direct things, um, which is what I've continued on doing, moving from cinematography to directing. So I've been a cinematographer for fifteen years. Yeah. When you when you did, because you worked on when you were young, like just starting out. You worked on Ali big feature films. Yeah. Yeah. It was Michael Mann's assistant for two years, um, right out of UH school, which was a kind of an amazing experience and he made like Miami Vice. Yeah, I mean he yeah, he made my advice the TV show. But he also made I mean his great films are like Last of the Mohicans, which is like a masterpiece. He he he. I think is it's also a masterpiece? Um, inside the Insider, that's that's also a masterpiece. Uh you know, I mean, dude, Collateral is a good film, maybe not a mass to piece, but you still talk to him, you know. I ran into him at the Director's Guild in l A like a few months ago to screening for The Revenant. Um, it was really interesting. I hadn't seen him in almost fifteen years. Ah as uh you know as I and I was twenty four year old kid coming out of film school and worked for, you know, directly for one of the biggest directors in the world. I went from like, you know, living in a crappy dorm room until like flying on a private jet you know, to Africa with him. It was a it was a real head trip. Um, how did that happened? Not to interrupt now, you know it's interesting. I like I got a two day job as a p A to fill in for someone in his office. Explain what that means. It's a production assistant job, so entry level in the in the in film and television production as a production assistant. Um can I can I interrupt real quick? Yeah, we have a role that we made up called the w P A wilderness Wilderness production assistant. That would be like, that would be a level above you know, a normal p A because it requires some additional skills that are somewhat esoteric, you know. For me, it was like, can you make coffee and and clean up, like literally make coffee? That would be a job. Yeah, make yeah, exactly, Yeah, make coffee the way Michael likes coffee made, which, trust me, is a high pressure situation. If you think it's not a high pressure situation, you don't know, Michael Man, are you thinking, oh, yeah, I'll wind up like directing shows? And I mean it was it just seemed like that in the world. But I thought I thought, I thought I'd end up directing feature films. I really thought I'd go down, um, like a narrative and feature film path, you know. Um. But the more and more the more I was exposed to like documentary filmmaking, the more I realized that it really fits my you know. Yeah, I guess my god given talents, you know, my particular set of of like inherent skills you know, um better than you know, looking at a script and in making a future film, which is very like a very I mean, look, it's an art form, so I'm not you know, I'm not talking down on it at all, but it's, um, it's a very contrived art you know, it's and UM, I don't think that was particularly right for me in the end. But what was very right was, you know, documentary, which is you exist in the moment, you know, and you use your instinct and your skills, uh, you know, and your problem solving on a moment to moment asis, which uh, for me, it was like very appealing because you're figuring out the story as you go along, you know. Tell the others. Tell the show you worked on for a long time. Can you talk about that? Yeah? Absolutely? Oh yeah, Biggest Biggest Loser? Yeah, oh yeah, I mean for how many years to do that? I did? Uh? I did three years The Biggest Loser, ninety six episodes. And then talk about what you've been doing in the three and a half years since you since you uh since because we worked together for years. I mean together together for years. I mean we're still in communication all the time, but we worked together together for years and then we were still we still work with the same company. But now you do now you direct episodes of Yeah, so I directed. I direct a couple of different shows now. Um, a show called Mind of a Chef, which is based on I mean, you know it is what it is. It's you know, eight episode seasons of based on a chef. So we'll pick a chef and like kind of dissect their life, their philosophies and um. That's really that's a very very fun show to work on because it's like total creative freedom. We can look at you know, we can look at a chef and and come up with all kinds of wild ways to tell their story. Um. Then I also am a cinematographer and director on Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown, which is a show on CNN which is like, uh, a food, travel, culture, kind of political, kind of everything else kind of show, you know, Um, which is a little different in that it's a host based show, you know, so it's you know, one host all the time, Anthony Bourdain, you know, and it's really his looking at the world through his filter. You know, how many of those of you every year? You know, I used to shoot when I was just shooting them, I would shoot eight or nine a year, And now that I'm directing him, that really limits the amount you can get out. So I do too. Maybe I'll do three next year directing, and then I'll probably shoot two of them as well. Um, not not directing but as a cinematographer. But that's about as much time as I can get in, you know, because I mean directing your you know, you're two and a half months in or two months in pre production, just sitting at a computer, you know. Then you're ten eleven, twelve days in the field filming, and then you're you know, another six to eight weeks or so sitting in front of the computer again as you edit, you know, as you edit the show. Yeah. Yeah, it's exteresting, man, it's engrossing. They're little films, you know, but uh yeah, I mean really very rewarding show as well. Um so yeah, and then you know, hopefully more of these. Now Mandus did his first uh that was that your first uh guesting guesting on a show. That's funny after all this time, it's the first time I have really been on camera for the duration of a show, you know, and felt like kind of what it's like to stand on the other side and have someone like point a camera at you and be like, okay, so now say something cool and try to come you know, trying to come up with interesting you know, ship that you think people would be, you know, would want to hear, and in your force to like, you have to appreciate the importance of coming up with something because you deal with the other end of trying to put this stuff together later. Yeah, you realize like, no good when you bomb out. Yeah, definitely, you get into some weird you know, in my position here, you get in some weird like Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty kind of stuff, where like I'm kind of I realize as I'm doing this, I'm kind of tainting the process. So I mean, if you're going to talk about like pure documentary stuff, just the fact that I have so much inside knowledge, I'm like, I was aware as we went through this process that I was like clearly manipulating something inside because I know how it'll cut together and how it'll all work, and you know, um, the hardest thing, which shows like this, which is that you know, it's very very difficult to get the amount of ideas and material that you want to get across to tell a story into twenty two minutes. You know, it's it's a real difficult process. You know, when we sit around, let me come back there. I want, I want to keep, I want, I want to keep. No, i'na say it. I doesn't stay real quick because I'll forget we said around. We'll be like, yeah, we want to like coming up, we want to do an episode about Dad's right. Um Joannice, his dad, you know, brought him up hunting and has a lot of really interesting ideas about what he thought his kids would get out of going to hunting camp and being exposed to this sort of cycle of there's a handful of guys that hang out and they meet every year and and sort of how you interact and how you kind of come together and and fulfill you know, and pursue goals and come into this this camp and assign people like different tasks and make the whole thing work smoothly and get along well and very differences and and know what subjects are sort of just not good to bring up and just how to hang out, you know, and he felt that it was like a great gift to his to his son to bring him in that world. We've had these conversations, so we're like, okay, we should do an episode about Dad's you know, and be honest's dad's always umed to go on a moose hunt. So we're gonna take on a moose hunt. And and in the end, you know, we keep talking about it like the dad's thing, right, like be honest dad, the dad thing. To us, it feels that way when you watch it will be like these guys were hunting moves and there was this, and there was that, and there was a bear and oh yeah, someone's dad was there, and it'll be like, but you but it really feels like you're going to it really feels like you want to make a comment about Dad's definitely, yeah, because it's so it winds up being in this kind of thing where's all this like uncertainty and action stuff and you know, shooting guns and chopping animals up and ship like the thing you were wanting to talk about. Sometimes the only winds up being like a hint, yeah, but if I can if I can interject real quickly before you move on to One of the reasons why that's so difficult to do is that if you if you were to make a show where you're like, I want to talk about dads, and you just you came out of the gate just swinging and and like wanted to relay all your information and all your thoughts and feelings about dads and all the stuff you want to get across in the show. So it would feel so phony and preachy, and and you know up its own asks that it wouldn't work. There's a way that when you go into the edit that you have to divulge a story that you know is kind to the audience. You know, that allows the audience to get a sense of tone and place and feel a sense that they're they're involved in the story, that they have some steak um before you're able to sell high concept ideas, you know. And so you realize, like in a twenty two minute show, by the time you've set all that stuff up, you know, and you've brought them into the experience, and you want to now divulge your information, You're like, you have very little time to do that and then tell the rest of the story points that get you from A to B, Like you gotta then actually kill a moose and then butcher moose, and then you don't have a meal out of up moose. It just becomes the time to get ideas across is so whittled down that what you end up with is like, well, okay, what's the most concentrated salient point that I can interject at this one particular place where I can get an idea in um because that's about my only thing to have it become the show about Dad's I think of it as being somewhere between nine and eight twenty, like we just wanted we did the thing we wanted about Aldo Leopold. Okay, what's all said done will be probably about if you if you broke out the minutes or the seconds or whatever, maybe about ten percent about the one thing we talked about going into it. Yeah, that's that sounds about right. But that's the I mean, those are like the shackles of the twenty two minute you know, UM format. It just we're saying minutes, were talking about a thirty minutes elevision. You got two minutes, you know. So that's like a standard form for the television industry. Is like twenty you know, a half hour twenty two, a one hour forty four you know. Um, you find it like a forty four minute show seems like it should be harder to make, and it's like way, way easier to make a good one, you know, um, because you actually have some breathing room and some time that you can you know that you can get your ideas across and really like structure, something that is interesting for people to watch, takes them, brings them into the story and the experience and is like coherent you know. Um, So anyways, you know, but but I like them personally. I like the twenty two is because they're they're very challenging, you know, they're challenging, and when you get a good one, you like feel real proud of that. And and it's a nice digestible size show for people to watch. I used to hate it, but I like it. Yeah. I think it's better in a lot of ways when you can do it well, you know. Anyways. Rick, Yeah, my name's Rick Smith. I Uh, I'm I'm not a hunter, but I uh filmed a lot of wildlife stuff and started uh writing and kind of helping produce some of the Apex Predator episodes with Remy who is like the master hunter. So it was good. Uh. I always knew I wanted to get your first time as being out hunting. Yeah. Yeah, I always felt some of the wildlife stuff that I was doing was like hunting with a camera. You know a lot of grizzly bear stuff where you were stocking and getting close, but it was just with a with a camera in some way. So it felt pretty natural to do it. But I really respected the z b Z who who makes all this stuff uh with no reservations. So as I was coming up as a uh in in film school and figuring out what I wanted to do, I saw no reservations and I was like, that's the kind of stuff I wanted, wanted to make stylistic, beautiful, but it felt very authentic, and uh so I was super excited to start work on Apex and then this is my second medi eater show and we did We did Old Mexico and yeah it was awesome. Now what what So you went to film school? Yeah? And then how did you get into did you go into being like that you wanted to film wild life? I mean I didn't. I really had no idea I was. My undergraduate degree was in biology, and I knew I didn't want to be a biologist as a did you know what that meant being a biologist? Like, no, you just I mean did it winds up being like a university thing? Right? Well, that's why I did research. And you know, people, all the professors I spoke with were like, it's not really they weren't. Nobody seemed very enthused about what they were doing. I think that's just a matter of old people just talking about work period. But I wasn't convinced that I was going to be able to do what I wanted to do. What just largely going a lot of adventures. So I thought documentary film. I like film. I like film, film and stuff. I had no idea what that meant, and I went to grad program in Bozeman. It's an m f A and science and natural history documentary film. And I had no idea what that meant. I mean, it's a what it's a it's science and documentary film and rolled in. Yeah. So the premise was to take people trained in science and train them in filmmaking. It was like you and another guy, No, it's I mean that makes sense. It was like a well in Bozeman, it's like, yeah, there's all these folks that are I mean, it's kind of taken over the industry at least in some some aspects of it. A lot of guys working for the BBC at that, winning some big awards, producing stuff for nat GEO, a lot of folks work for NASA. I mean, it's but it's the skill set, it's kind of you know, um, it's not exclusive. You're range as a scientist, then you have to learn like storytelling. So it takes a little while to figure it out. But um, yeah it's a weird program. But I wanted to be in Bozeman, and yeah, I didn't know what else to do. So so break it down how you were just recently doing a job. But your job was just go out and collect footage of animals, doing animal ship with just like behavior. Yeah, so I mean a big part checklist, Well, a big part of the natural history filmmaking deal is you're you're having to tell stories with with just animals. There's no host, there's no nothing blue if they called blue chip wildlife you know television or film, and yeah, you're you're shooting behavior and the progression, whether it be over the course of the season. But these animals lives in a way that people can watch it and actually care. I mean, when you're out hunting, you start to if you watch an animal long enough, you start to understand their story. Well you often catch them at the tail end of their life too. That's exactly right, um, But you're you know, when you have hours and hours of watching an animal while the story unfolds slowly and over the whole season. But to do it in a twenty two minute show or of you know, forty four minute forty four minutes, you have to be very uh I guess precise about the imagery you get that tells the story of animals that are out. Okay, you know, when you're watching a shitty wildlife documentary and they'll show like a rabbit just looking like a rabbit, and then they show a raptor, and then they show a rabbit and an initial a raptor, and an initial a rabbit and an initial a raptor, and you never see the raptor in the rabbit together. And then also there's a raptor that maybe it's the same one or maybe a different one eating some nondescript hunk of meat on a fence pole and they build out as though the raptor like total artifice. So yeah, there can you Well, we're trying not to. But the show that I'm working on is for the Smithsonian Channel. Um. And then the grand scheme of like natural history natural history films that the BBC makes really expensive a lot of days in the field. So it's it's it's a time intensive, money intensive thing to make a good natural history show. Um. The show I'm working on doesn't have a huge budget, but we're trying to not make it suck. So it's it does trying to get both things in the same shot. You're trying to be just like we're talking about this show. Uh, you're trying to be authentic, and the audiences can they can read bullshit. Um, And there's maybe a percentage of population that doesn't care one way or another, but good, good documentary film has a level of of authenticity to it. So the audience at the end of the day knows if you're getting if they're getting sucked with you know, if there if something's happening, like if there's the rabbit and the raptor and they never actually interact, but you can, Yeah, you can construct. You can construct the narrative in a way that doesn't reflect the actuality of what happened. And I mean that's just the reality of making documentaries, right, And so what what are you beginning with? Like what is your when you when you're doing a job like that when you wake up in the morning, are you just a slaved or whatever happens? Or do you have a very precise thing like the shows that you decide you want to make about dads like I want you know, we have a premise that we want to go shoot and you're aware of the premise, yeah, you know, the overall structure. But in the end, like that the year of a Bear, let's say, right, right, but you're sort of the story is going to reveal itself and whatever actually happens to some degree, you can try to, I don't know, enable a certain situation to occur or be there the right time in the right place, but more or less, um, you get what you get out there. Um. So in what percent of your work you're doing in national parks? Yeah, so, I I mean I do. I don't do a ton of just pure natural history stuff. Most of my work has been host based adventure filmmaking, where I'm following a host much like yourself, doing something and and it's kind of a hybrid of pure natural history with with some you know, with a with some humans in there um. But most of it, you know, any good wildlife sequence. Most of it takes place, uh in situations where the animals are habituated. This doesn't mean they're not wild places, but they're used to seeing people. You go to a place where certain animals are not used to seeing you, and they're just gonna they're just gonna run away. They're just gonna be like or I mean, if it's super novel, maybe they'll like come close to you. But more or less, you have to be in a place where it's like a weird congregation, where your chances of seeing something are pretty good and the distances required, like I mean, to get a decent shot even with a huge telephoto lens less than a hundred yards. So that's that's close when it comes to these animals that don't want to be around you. So but when that guy finally got that shot of the snow leopard in it, what was the program petarth I heard that he was like a thousand yards, like some absurd distance away he was. He was really far. But that was a place that was like a known place. But he definitely spent a lot of time in a blind. But he spent like three weeks in a blind that shot for that, you know, for that shot. But I know another guy that's working on a show. I think it's funded by the Chinese, but I think it's for Disney Nature, um. And he got some amazing stuff and into beet snow leopards. Snow leopards like way close. And it was largely because they had a h h set of you know, individual cats that were okay with their presence and they never put the stock on. They never like threatened them because the cats know they're there, and they I mean they got I think they got some amazing stuff. So it's really finding individuals or populations that allow you to get close enough to tell the story um that that otherwise mostly can't be told. Most wild animals don't want anything to do with people. So I was talking to these guys at down in Fort Bragg were the UH I can't remember what one of the one one of the special forces groups is based out of Fort Bray. I can't remember what number. I know I'm a donner to hang out. And these guys told me a story that one night they were in a pass in Afghanistan staking out a pass. Did I tell you this? I think you might have, but I'll take story. They catch some guys, They catch the suspected Taliban guys coming through the pass and they start shooting at him, and one of them is carrying a big recoilist rifle and they wing the guy and he drops the rifle and then his his friends drag him back down out of sight. And the guy sat there all night with a thermal scope, you know, watching two so he could hit whoever came out to get that rife, because he knew someone was probably gonna come get that rifle. And as he's watched that night, a snow leopard came out and smelled the blood for that guy got hit and he saw it. That's awesome. Yeah, A lot of people will never lay think myself included, will never lay eyes on one of those things. Peter Mathison wrote a whole damn book, never saw one. It's like it's it's like Mount Mountins outside around Bozeman or there was one at m s U Montana State You Niversity, there was one spotted on campus at like two in the morning. I got a text alert like watch out for the mountain lion. But but there's cats out there and you'll never you know, you'll never see them, and uh they're there watching you and there and they're mostly you know, I'm never gonna do anything. They don't they don't eat people. Otherwise they would eat people, right, I mean they killed like a deer a week or something. They eight hikers in l Ah. You have a better chance of getting I don't. It's like I'm not saying that. Introduce yourself, Eric, Now you've ruined the entire conversation. When was that, Eric Astro home, I'm a producer and director at the same company that Mo works at UM and that your shows, you know, produce on zero point zero and uh yeah, mostly have done travel advent sure production all around the world, all around the damned world. Yeah, lots of crazy stories from different corners, remote places. But my first hunt was actually or that I was anywhere near it was with you five or six years ago, a doll sheep hunt. Yeah, I've never been a hunt before. Yeah, and then before then and after then you worked for other Yeah, bounced around a bit. Yeah, freelance lifestyle, yeah, which I think, Uh, you know Corey and Rick here also enjoy and Mo has in the past, bouncing between, you know, different shows, different adventures and different corners of the world. I lived in Alaska for a little bit doing a rescue show which was pretty wild. Rescued a couple of hunters and like remote spots. Yeah, there was a problem. I just remember there was. It's all kind of blend together. I do remember. There was like an eighty two year old guy who was just out on a remote island, you know, and you know, off on his own, had hunted all his life and was you know, ended up having to call in to be rescued, but really didn't actually want to be rescued. He was just tough as nails and kind of just wanted to like a re supply of some water and some foods. Who could keep hunting. So it was yeah, some interesting uh yeah, some interesting experience. No no, no, it's not Gonn carried away water water, some bobo bis. What was he hunting for? I don't know, it was It was a really long time ago. Uh but I imagine probably it was up near a Sitka. Uh so, I don't know. It's on the islands outside of Dear, Yeah, probably Dear. Yeah, but yeah, everything from rescue shows to been down to Antarctic a couple of times. Spent some time in Afghanistan, lots of different places abouts of Africa, Yeah, lots of Africa. Yeah, yeah, I think I think the biggest takeaway is is something that we were talking about earlier today, which is just perspective. You know, you gained some perspective on different people's you know where they came from, their perceptions, and uh, it helps you not to jump jump basically to conclusions because everyone has a completely different paradigm. You know, you realize very quickly when you step outside of your own neck of the woods, so I speak. Yeah, it's a little shocking, yeah, yeah, surprising. Uh. And now you're full time, you're full time. Yeah yeah, very recently full time and CPZ and uh and just moved to Montana, which is exciting. I was living in reluctantly living in Manhattan for a long time. I left Colorado. There aren't as many trees or mountains for me in Manhattan, so I was kind of run around like in that case, I think people saw me and my bike, pulling my skis like behind me through Manhattan, like kicking off yellow cabs quite often, like ice climbing stuff in my backpack and heading like either to get to a train or a plane to like escape, yeah, to escape out. Yeah. I remember on time walking in New York and I had found a deer skull in Wyoming and gave it to Chris and Lydia who owns zero point zero or you know, two of the yeah, the founders, and uh. A while later, they pointed out to me that there's these little pyramids of dust underneath the skull all the time, and I realized there's still some dermifted beatles or like some carrying beetles living in the skull and they were still active. And I was like, well, I'm gonna take a home and clean it. So I'm walking and I didn't have anything to put in its on this walking down into the subway station with a deer head skull with antlers on it, some dried hair and stuff side it. Still this guy sees it and he's so insistent that I sell it to him that he comes into my He like gets into my subway car with me. Just he's flabber gases about this thing. Any amount of money is fine, you know, And I'm I'm trying to explain to him, like, listen, you don't understand the nation is a wash in these things. You just don't know because where you live that they're laying on the side of the road. This is not like like this seems very unusual, you know. So he's like, highly unusual. It's just not you can you don't need to give me hundreds that you get a you know, a forky deer antler. It's a big world out there, buddy, and it's full of deer skulls. Did you did you want to take the money at one moment? Or here's the thing. I would have been a second, but I've already given it to Chris Lady. They loved it, but they just didn't want it in their office. Was like a little like he didn't even notice it. Every time I pick it up, there's like little sawdusty things underneath it and they're still in there, eating them whatever out of there. So I couldn't then go like, oh, hey, you know, I know you want me to take home and clean if I sold it two guys in the subway. Here's your gut. Yeah, perspective. Now, dirt you dirt myth? Explain again? Why they why not? Why they call you? Explained dirt myth? Can I like? This is my favorite story in the world. I had ah that's the name of my uh photography company, and it came from I had a speech impedimant when I was young, and I'd introduced myself as dirt myth Garrett Smith, because you dirt myth, amongst other wrong words. But still happens. I still make up words occasionally, but not as bad because nobody's calling dirt. Yeah, that's a compliment. Garrett does more on this production than he does everything. He's running the podcast machine right now. He's like mixing the audio. I'm just pretending he's a horse in the field. He yeah, he must. He must add one a hunter pound pack with a camera with sticks on your shoulder the whole time. I don't know, but I was saved by Rick and Eric when I about went down the mountain with that weight. That was scary. Yeah, that was a close call, like we'd joke about, like, oh you know, it was pretty sketchy train or tough train. I mean there was a point that Garrett fell and if he didn't stop tipping over with a big pack on, he would have died lost a leg. I mean you were, you were inches away from the tipping point from which you would not have regained control. And it was it was, I don't want to say you would have died. It was significant consequence. You think, yan, he's got problems. We're joking about about dirt self arresting with the hunk of his own leg bone. That was about it. This is classic. This is this is Garrett just in general. Is everything's okay all the time, even if it's not not. As he's falling, he says, I'm okay as a right now, don't yeh, don't rip my new pants still still in motion. Yeah, and then you're like, watch the pants. He had so much holding God to your pants to keep you from pitching over a thirty ft drop. But you know, everybody knows the Midnight Ride of Paul Revere. There was the midnight the midnight Hike of that was that was heroic man, what kind of But not really because I messed up? Yeah, I forgot Later when you explain what you were seeing. I realized that was a heroic effort. Man. Whether you GPS on the way down, yeah a lot, Yeah, that was that was a heroic effort. No GPS hiking out at night in this is pretty This is rough terrain in parts in a in a really yeah, in in a bush wax sense. If you if you rated bush wax and there's a bush rag rating scale, a bushwack rating scale, I'm interested in looking at it was explaining to me, but it would have to be on a one attend This is like an eight bush Yeah, yeah, definitely, because there's no Devil's club. There's no devil in the night. That's right. Yeah, I've been up up that hill and that's that is a nine or ten man, but no Devil's club. But it is I mean, that's sick. That's just like and to come down in the dark at night with only the range of view of your head lamp um alone. I think the choice to go down the drainage, which we initially were like, oh, he's going down the drainage, that was a good move. Again though teamwork, Like I had communication with you guys once I knew that that would empty close. It was an easy call. So that was that was moving with like fear motivating you because it's about two and a half going down with heavy I mean heavy packs. If you ripped down there, you got that. Man. I was nervous. What if I come back up? Man? Yeah, I wondered that there was bourbon down here, whatever that was. I was hoping you'd bring the burb and back up. About it, dude, I'm addressed that the fish check used to have such an ample. The alcohol section used to run from that first aid kit over to that really old bottle of separated honey, and it was just like it was four and a half feet of liquor. It's down to two Bacardi bottles that you know, the dimple on the bottom of bottle. The Bacardi doesn't come up to the bottom of the dimple. And then I think a Yager mice. I think a Yager miss just been here. I think since we bought this place, who drinks Yager muster? Someone thought was good? I need to bring up. Is that way you guaranteed to always have a little bit of liquor. Uh. We'll explain why we went up the mountain, why we went up what we were doing this in particular time we were on this was hunt. Yeah, this was um, what was my second deer hunt? Uh? Yeah, I didn't say first deer hunt. No, I'm just trying to tell the story, man, But I like to start with a solid you know, we'd be authentic. I have I have a way of the VULTI I don't know why I'm I don't know why I'm directing you, man. I guess just like a chance I have to direct you and I just can't turn down. No, that's fine, Yeah, you know, um yeah, it's my second deer hunt. Um. But more importantly than any of that, it was this is the this is the spot of kind of our first real um, you know, our first real like endeavor in this in this field um or in this genre like together, you know, working we had done we had done some of the pilots, like I said, ramping up, but those were really just like dicking around getting to know each other, kind of ramping up, figuring out what a show would be. We came here six years ago on the Travel Channel show Wild Within. On the first episode, Um, it was the first time that like all the gears were kind of engaged, and we were really going after the kind of show that we ultimately wanted to make people would see and yeah and that, yeah, and that would be kind of out there in the public eye, and you know, like, you know, it was interesting that you have to also kind of take into consideration the context at that time, like six years ago, with what was what was available on TV. But on mainstream television, people weren't doing content about hunting. You know, even at that time, I know there were executives within the network there that we're leery about what we're doing, and we're constantly trying to put their like shine on it, well, like well, it's not a hunting show, and I'll be like, well, because we're doing a lot of hunting, so you know, Um, but I think people were in and I understand their position. I you know, I think it was people were very leery of like how that would be accepted on like a mainstream network, you know, um, hope. Besides that, it was the first time that we had the funding and in the crew and the implementation of the technology and kind of a little bit of the know how to go out and kind of figure out what, you know, how would we do this in an authentic way, UM, that that that wouldn't either you know, ruin um the standards that we hope to achieve in terms of television production. But also wouldn't you know, ruin the hunt um, which is which is a delicate balance, you know, I mean cameras are difficult animals in in of themselves. They're very finicky, and they require a lot of attention, you know, and a lot of input. We just to keep them working, it will no, not just not even just to keep them working, but to keep you know, to keep like myself as a camera operator or a DP at that time, in a position that I would be getting a shot that would be actually telling a story, you know what I mean. So meaning to say what I'm what I'm getting at is a very complex way of saying that. Like it's hard not to spook animals because you know, we want to tell the story in a way that's the most conducive to like divulging a story and building a story and making it entertaining and exciting, and like we're good at that. I know exactly where I would ideally like to be, you know, on various shots, um, And by shots, I mean camera shots, you know, to to document a hunt that is not necessarily conducive to what what you know, actually stocking up on an animal requires, you know, So there was a lot of there was a lot of learning in that, um, you know. But like I said, it was you know, that was a full time first time. We were full up and running and going, and it was a very uh like a very I think, a very exciting time in all of our lives. We were really figuring out and writing the genre like as we went along, because no one had really done a show I think like this, and and and by the way, I don't I don't know enough of the um, I don't know enough of what was out there at the time in the hunting world to be a correct about this. So there maybe people who are like, well, you know, you're not taking into consideration this show or that show, or the work of this person or that person. But in my perception, and to the extent that I know you're familiar with network television, I'm familiar with network television for sure. But um, what I'm trying to say is that I don't I don't know that there was a hunting show that was doing kind of what we were trying to do at that time. We had talked a lot then about like, UM, hunting shows as being made by hunters who were interested in picking up a camera and like documentary what they were seeing. Um, it didn't necessarily have like the television savvy to be like, well, here's how you articulate like a complex narrative with dramatic highs and lows and you know, tell a beautiful and like cinematic story that has some like gravitas, you know. Um, we were like we were TV folks that didn't know anything about hunting, really didn't particularly know anything about being out of doors, you know. UM, who had become by virtue of like meeting you and getting to understand your world, like interested in making shows about hunting and about this world and about you know, how you live. Um, and that took that was like a steep learning curve when those worlds came together, because you don't you know, it's not like you know, in a normal job like I'm working biggest lot loser, like show up at eleven o'clock in the morning at call time, hit the burrito truck, you know, for craft service, and you go get my camera ready and like the whole list of shots and just stuff to accomplish. This was like really writing the entire textbook as we went along because we didn't know how to show like us would work. And it was very exciting to pull a crew up that mountain, pull a crew back down that mountain, have a successful hunt, you know, um, and figure out that a lot of us just had no idea what we were doing outside, but I wouldn't. Really the most proud of and in the whole process is that we were able to go in and like not know what we were doing and really you know, make some mistakes um on that first show. Even though we walked away with a pretty successful show, I still really like that episode turned out, um to then be able to like reassess, figure out like what we needed to tweak, how we needed to do things and be a little bit better than next time, and like be a little bit better and next time, be a little bit better next time to the point where we actually we were fined it into a show that like really worked, man, where we weren't we were not a footprint that was affecting the quality of like the hunts. We understood how to act around animals, we understood how to um, you know, how to make the like the hunting endeavor successful, but at the same time, we didn't sacrifice like the beauty and the dynamics of like the show and what we wanted to achieve in television. And and that was like, that's a really that was a really tricky balance. Like for reasons I said before about where the shot kind of wants to be, you know, yeah, I want to I want to Joe, because that's something that even just now on we just did you know, we just filmed the hunt right now. The it's just it's one of the primary things I think about when we're out is it's like, for instance, I'm not I'm not having a very clear start. So we're out running back till here. Now you're going through coastal rainforest is very thick, and you come on these openings called muskegs, and we'll get to the edge of the opening I want to call right, So in my mind, the perfect thing with that would happen would be that I would hit the edge of the muskeg. I would settle in, yeah, wiggle into the ground, like try to become the ground or try to become a tree. And all the cam the camera guys would just lay down, right, but they know that they have to do a job. And the minute any of them move, I want, on one hand be like lay down, but on the other hand like, well the reason we're all here, Yeah, it's because they're filming. It's perfect. Perfect. What's your guys like, what's your guys perspective? I mean, do you feel me giving you the evil eye? Oh? Yeah, it's good. I don't know. There's there's a real functional thing, right. If you don't film it, then you have no show. But if you spook the animal will help, then you also have no shows. So there's there's two competing no shows that are possible. So you're trying to figure out how to balance, how to balance it. And I think what you guys did in creating this show was generally television making. Television is about control, controlling all aspects as in like setting up, setting up everything. It becomes the production becomes the production first subject matter. Second to control it and shoot exactly how you want to do it and have the hours that you want to have and everything. And this this show, uh is about in some ways the hunt first and then the camera guys has to have to figure it out. That was a clear decision from the very beginning was that the hunt would be authentic, and the hunt would be the process, and we would accept whatever the outcome of that was, whether it was a failed hunt or a successful hunt, and that the the what it really took was was I don't brag about a lot of things. I am a excellent, excellent camera operator. And what it really took was having a team that was like kind of at that level. Because the camera, the language of camera is extremely articulate. There's thousands and thousands of variations. What does that mean. What it means is that um Um kind of was trying to go on to explain that, but there's there's thousands of variations of what you can do with a particular shot to tell um to tell a story, right UM, for example, a shot that There's a couple of shots that became hallmarks of this show that I was like emphatic about from the very beginning that they have to be because I had watched some hunting show and I had seen like things like you were talking about earlier, with the separation of the raptor and the rabbit. I've seen that on hunting shows where they show an animal and then they show a dude and and they feel disparate from the very beginning. To me, I didn't. I was not super interested in like the kill shot, like the perfectly framed kill shot. I was very interested in integrating the hunter into the kill shot. So that over the shoulder shot of you taking a shot at an animal was absolutely mandatory to me. It's it's nice because it works well in terms of how your soilhouettes line up and in terms of the animals field of view. You know, um, so that one actually that one actually plays diminishing what you dish. It's well instead of two dudes out there, you know, you see one dude, um another one from Because that that's important to stick on because the effect the effect gives. Is there anyone who's ever gone hunting with their friends or whatever, like you spend a lot of time hunting my brothers, and just the sneaking up on something. You're there. You don't sneak out side by side now like Jerry, like there's the guy. If you're calling for your friend or your friends, it's his turn or anything like that. You're behind and you're sort of seeing the world through this kind of like this over the shoulder view, and it wind up like in doing it that way, I felt really just felt so immediate, like you were with someone in the woods. Organic And that was again because you don't always see what's going on. Perspective. Perspective was the most important thing, and in developing this show, it was that we needed to We needed to put the audience in the hunt. You know, in order for a mainstream audience to accept us in like really kind of understand it. In in order to explain your philosophies in your world, we had to put them in the context. And so it had to be experiential. If we had gone in and set up a bunch of shots, you know, the audience would instantly dismissed it. We were talking about my like kind of my mentor earlier um in Michael Mann he used to say, um, people are like smart as people, but they're brilliant as animals. What he meant by that was that people have this extrasensory perception of when shit is just wrong in bullshit, and and people know an audience knows if you look at you look at shows that are out there, you know, when you're being shined on, you might accept it as like entertaining and be like, oh fine, I don't care, but rabbits don't talk. But from the very right, Well, that's an extreme example, but I'm thinking more like survivalist shows. You look at something and you're like, something just doesn't look right about that. That just that's not right. And it's like, yeah, it isn't right because that's the back of a Walmart. I've spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of days out in the woods. Seldom is my face dirty, right, it might get a little sweaty, but sell them isn't dirty. But but things like that, I mean people do pick up. People do pick up on things like that. And I think we knew from the beginning that we were treading on like new ground in terms of mainstream audiences and stuff like that, and that that it had to be authentic. That if we if we broke the if we broke the audience trust in any way in terms of the authenticity and what we were presenting, that we had really like lost the battle because we were we were trying to present the philosophy more than more than anything else, you know, Um, and make it entertaining and all those things. But we really was like a philosophy, you know, so you can't lie to people. You can't like be like, here's our philosophy and we really believe this, and you're you're lying to them. You know what I mean? You have to tell the truth in the language of camera. You know, the language of how you tell that is is super super important. You got to bring people into the experience. I found early on that what would happen a lot was I was following you, but I wasn't looking at you. I was looking past you, right, I was looking in the woods, past you and kind of like moving from side to side and seeing you kind of pass in front of me. So that became a shot. I was like, well, that needs to be a shot. I need to put people in that experience. So I with another shot. I came up with that I really married into the language of the show was the long lens, meaning that I'm on a more of a telephoto side of the camera, pushing past your body which is in soft focus in the foreground to the background, which was really woods or something we were looking at, which is in focus. And by by doing that, what I'm telling the audiences Steve's looking at those woods. Steve's examining those woods. We're now in a in a predatory mode. We're now down, We're hunkered like you see wolves stock in, you know, and our focus is what's in front of us. What's happening in the foreground doesn't matter. We're looking we're looking out, We're hunting now. And that became a very important shot. That was a shot that put people in the moment that they could understand on a cerebral in like primal level, you know, like I'm saying, there's a there's a language to all this, and there's there's hundreds and hundreds of shots like that, and and what the art is really in doing this is knowing the context, knowing the experience and um and learning when to plug those different shots in. Because this is all happening in the moment. It should be made clear to people that did we didn't bullshit any of this. This was real stuff. These were real events, you know, they were happening. We just over time learned, like you know, what what technique do you plug into what hole? As you go along and divulge the story, what is going to accentuate the story. What's gonna bring people into that moment. What I think it's important within that too, is we talked earlier about twenty two minutes. Now when I'm like, like they like think the when I when I when I was writing my Buffalo book, okay, and and I'm and I'm writing about the experience of being out looking for in Buffalo now. At a lot of times in my head is stuff like uh, you know, man, I like should I file for a deferment for my taxes this year? Or like, man, I should call my mom or often and all these other things. But that's not part of what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Buffalo. So you create a sort of a distorted sort of you create sort of a distorted reality about what it is you're thinking about and what is you're talking about by highlighting certain elements what you're talking about and chasing twenty two minutes um over the course of seven days, eight days, chasing twenty two minutes just in the fact that you you're not you might not be bullshitting, but you're selecting out a very very small chunk of everything that occurred. Synthesizing. Yeah, if not symnpthesizing is not the right word. We are not we're we are not synthesizing. What we're doing is condensing and and it's a distillery. We're not condensed or condensed wouldn't be accurate. Condensed would leave you one minutes of glassing. Yeah, in one minute of stalking. I don't agree with that. It's we should get out a dictionary. It is not it is, but it is definitely not synthesizing. Well, what does that synthesizing and officializing? Synthesizing would be to constructor reality. That's not what we're doing. We're selectively distilling the the the process selected distallation. I would I would say we are we are constructing an authentic version. So it is a synthesis, and that it doesn't reflect the reality because the reality took place over eight days and it's now twenty two minutes. But if you do it correctly, then it reflects the original experience in a way that is is honest. You can do it in a lot of different ways. You can synthesize in a way that is totally different than that initial experience, or you can do it in a way that is pretty closely parallels what you honest is probably the key word. Yeah. Yeah, it's like with porn, with porn and like, well how did these two ben't But it's they left out the part where it's it's semantics. I think you know it is semantics. But I think that was a very good explanation. I just the words synthesis has a connotation to me that the um that I guess doesn't jive with the way that I've viewed what we do. But I understand what you're saying and your I think we're exactly on the same because there's so many versions. And the reason I respect and I'm so happy to be working on this show is that process, whether it be synthesis or distilling or condensing or any other chemical term you gotta go in here, is that you have to figure out a way to cram in this experience. It is long. It's long. Nobody would ever actually in Norway, they do watch this stuff slow teeth TV. Have you heard about this, But it's but generally in America we watch, you know, twenty two minutes of something or very short amount of time, but we film it over this long period and we want to give the audience the best version of a way that they one will watch. That's one two that they respect, and that's those two things together. Man, it is really right. It's really hard to make. It's it's very difficult to make and it requires, like as go through the process of making a single show, it's hundreds of decisions of like, well, should we do this and we do that? Or now is a Now are we sliding over the edge of what's bullshit? And you know? Now are we lying? Now? Are we telling the truth? Now? Is that? You know, it's a lot of balancing like that as you go through it, because you are you know, we can't say that this is a scientific analysis of like of of an experience. It's not. I mean we're by virtue with the fact of handing, you know, having our hands on it. Any time and any time an avot or any other editing machine is involved in a process, you are affecting the reality. I mean, you're now writing a narrative. You know what it is is you know, we I think constantly we're asking ourselves or constantly ask ourselves as documentarians, does this fall within the bounds of what is generally perceived to be you know, acceptable limitations on what is fair, you know, in documentary storytelling, and and there's no set of rules for that, but I think we all kind of inherently when we work in the genre, understand what those are and understand when we've crossed those boundaries. What was nice about this show is that I feel, almost without exception, that we never made those calls, even though they might have made more exciting shows. We we fell within what we thought where the boundaries, because I think that's the way we just wanted to live our life, was to feel that we had done something that had some integrity. You know. That's I mean, it's it's like a whole field of studies authenticity in documentary film, and yeah, absolutely, I mean there's a lot of very They sit right next to the wildlife biologists who want to go in a document that's well, we had to read some of that stuff. But there's this you know, Werner Herzog, who has made UH both fiction and nonfiction, one of my favorite, one of my favorite, so he talks about in in documentary there's moments that he creates true film that are more truthful than the reality of the situation. I'm familiar with Deadline of thoughts. Yeah, and and and in some degree, you know that's but there was there was a high profile case. I shouldn't say high profile. There's there's a medium profile case where a woman was writing a memoir about her life and hard scrabble existence and how she wanted to be a writer but but didn't get any support from her parents. And she wrote in her book and presented as fact that her father caught her with a typewriter and ceremoniously took the typewriter out and and pulverized it with a sledgehammer. Turns out her old man bought the goddamn typewriter for her. Okay, but she, in her defense said, well, all things taken in his the way he viewed my wanting to be a writer was akin to had he smashed my typewriter. So to make that point in a way that assistant the narrative. Yeah, right, it's a fucking What I'm trying to say is it's like it's a and we walked it many many times. It's a very difficult balance. Yeah, but she was over the edge, pointing out she was over the people want to classify things is either fiction or nonfiction? Yeah, and it's uh, it's not a helpful it's not helpful. No, no, I would that's what I would say. It's not helpful. Like our twenty two minute version show. It is an authentic version of what we experienced, but it's twenty two minutes. You gotta cut some stuff out. We didn't like, we didn't film Garrett, you know, almost dying down this mountain. That would have been the best part of that. Yeah, nights Night walked back, Like all these things just didn't make it because we're shooting two hundred minutes each. That six hundred minutes a day. Yeah footage. Yeah, can't all that show, They can't. So that four days, what is it? I shot how many? How many minutes altogether? I'd say twenty four her plus their little bonus cams here and there. One out of every hundred minutes. That's but a but a one hundred ratio is not surprising. I shot this year. I shot a hundred hours of footage for a forty four minutes show. Hundred hours of footage. Yeah, so we never we never know we never know when the animal is actually gonna be there either. So we're rolling full time because like like this tie, Yeah, all of a sudden, it was like yeah, and this is a perfect This is a perfect example of cameraman knowing what shot he needs to get, director telling Okay, I need the over the shoulder shot that that mo you know made as a part of the show. I didn't make it. I just yeah, no, no, but recognized the value of getting in over the shole shoulder shot that contextualizes the whole experience. But cameraman and the guy is following is just in two different locations. And if he moves, you know, I should have moved with you when you went to that next location, and I just didn't. But when he was getting when he shot the deer, well I was initially I was initially lined up over your shoulder and I was good and I was happy and a great two shot. Perfect. I would have been down the barrel. And then he moved and I didn't go with him because I was scared that I was gonna get yelled at by Steve. It's all barking, it's all bark and no bite. It's all bark and no bite, Like, what am I really gonna do? Well, what's gonna I know I'm trusting when I'm evil lying and all that and yelling, whisper yelling, I'm doing When I'm whisper yelling, all I'm doing is I'm basically saying this. I'm saying, I know that you need to do your job. Do your job in the way the best way you can that conforms to my ideal of you laying face down in the dirt. That's exactly right. No, So so Eric is saying, get get the shot, get the shot, and I am like, I can't move. Yeah, But what I would say about that situation, I think you guys handled that situation perfectly. Were on exposed face with a deer looking at us, and there was no he wasn't looking at No, he wasn't looking as when I moved, I moved because I knew if a deer popped out, I was going to blow your freaking ear drum out, you know, from from where I was sitting, So I had to get in front of you. Um once that once we made that call, there was no one was going to move. We were on an exposed face, and I should have anticipated that because I could have moved with you. There was not a lot of space for you to be. But but I mean all this. All this means to say is like you do the I mean, with these things, you do the best you can with the situation you're handed, and you you you kind of accept what the best you know, what the best you can do is. It's nice when you have the setup and the or thought in the time to be able to position yourself. And and that for me was like a big learning curve on this show. Was was positioning. When I got really good at it on the show, I could position to the point where I would reveal animals by by moving slightly around Steve, like in the case of the moose in Alberta, which is a beautiful reveal, and in the case of the have Alina in Texas, um where like I knew where the animals were going to pop out, and like I was behind it and I could just slightly move without spooking them and reveal something that the audience hadn't yet seen, like a moose standing in front of you. But that, I mean, dude, you know it's hard to do what you can six people six you know, I mean, we pull it off often. That's a lot of It's The other thing I happened is even just like hiking up into the area we want hunt. We stopped at a must gag set up called Nothing. Stopped at a must gig set up called nothing stopped that another must gig set up called Nothing. That was before we even got to where we were going. So this time this goes on and on. We set up many places and wait, nothing happens, and you started getting there's like a fatigue kind of sets up, like the first time you might get uh, you get your rest all, I get my backpack set just how I want to be, you know, everything's I got my everything's set, my scope set, you know, and I'm ready the eleventh time, you're just kind of I was gonna lean against this tree and blow the call. I'll start the rest out later. I'm not saying you got that that happens to you, but it happens to me to where it's a thing that makes a good hunter. It's always been like, but this could be the time, but I will I will say that. I that is something I didn't feel vulnerable to when we were when we are really doing the show. I did not feel vulnerable to fatigue or like, oh, you know, I just don't want to do it. No, but but I'm guilty of it. And I even get to where like Corey will be asking me, tell me, give me the set up, give me the set up, I must say, Hey, we don't need to set up. We're gonna go up here and nothing's gonna happen, you know. I just like to know, like a sore throne. So I was a val ready to change my clothes. I was up there for us, But it would have been helpful. It would have been helpful had I explained. But it would have been helpful had I said, an hour ago, whatever the hell it was, we saw a deer we were watching, you know. No, I mean just for not me, helpful for you, helpful for the show. Had I done a oh, we've now arrived at where we feel like a deer vanished. We're gonna blow a call and hoping you pop his head up. Well, and I'm like, yeah, I've been saying that for three days. I remember, I remember having some epic fights with you man in the field about like, dude, just please tell us what's going on right now, and like day seven or eight or whatever on odd ad, you know when we are going up after almost like please just tell me but I understand like the fatigue of just like day in, day out, setting things up that then didn't pan out, that are just going to hit the editing room floor absolutely not making the show. So all of your ideas, emotional energy, all the stuff you put into producing content. It's like wipe trying to wipe the slate clean and say like, I'm sorry, man, I know you worked really hard on that, but it's a complete waste. Now now you have to reset it up, you have to redo it again. And after a while, man, that's just so draining. Dude, it's hard to make. It's hard to do that over and over again. And I started to feel embarrassed. Yeah, you started to get like because you're talking to the camera, but you're in a way you're talking to the guy holding the camera. Definitely, that's a whole another thing we should talk about. But you know, it's like you're just like in this trip, like, Okay, what's going on? You feel like, dude, I've been telling you. I mean, do you really want me to tell you this again? There might be over there. This is this is an interesting thing because the relationship between the in specifically in this usually it's a relationship between the director and the and the subject um. But in this it really is a relationship between the camera operator, the director of photography in the subject because you guys got the point of contact. It can't you know, a director, we just in this in this context, you really don't need another person walking out into the field of view of all these animals, you know. So the camera operator directs a lot of that interaction and that relationship. And it's a hard position to be in because you're asking really really obvious questions that you know, but that you know that the audience needs to know. So you're like, I'd be often asking you things that you're like, dude, you know, you know that, and be like, yeah, dude, I know, I know that, but I just need you to say it, you know, and um, And there's a lot of like there's a lot of trust and stuff involved in that. There's a lot of like development of of relationship involved in that, you know. That's the thing I found is, uh, there's the benefits of working with people you had camera operators you haven't worked with, and there's a benefit of the ones you have worked at the ones you have worked with. Is what'll be going through the woods and I'll see something. If it's a guy I don't know or don't know, well, I'm always herron being like well turning to him meaning turned into the camera. I mean like, hey, check this out. So what happens is you know, I'm all excited to like introduce him to this new subject. I'd be like, you see this, you know, do you do that? And youll go do this and you know you see where bear he'll and then later when you it's like then later when you're with someone you had many experiences with you kind of yeah, they already know all that. Anyways, it was the advantage of the person, you know, is you get a real eye contact thing where I'll be like we're sitting there for hours, I'll have something else that I want to say and just you know, like turn or raise my finger and we're doing it and in it or like you know, I'm kind of like just little signals. I'm making signals as so you can see my hands. Listen to a podcast, but a little signal says a lot. Like a little signal says like no, I mean, seriously, there's something standing right here. This is this Like the way I'm waving my hand right now, we both know means like this thing is extremely close and there's a shorthand that develops. It's helpful for it's helpful for actually hunting, but it's not helpful for no doing the story. It's helpful for functionality and what you like, ultimately hope is that you kind of have both of those. And that's a big part of like, you know, a big part of directing this kind of stuff is learning how to establish a relationship but not contaminate the subject right and and how to continually pump the subject. We're like, I've I have found that in in like documentary directing and a lot of documentary directing, the most powerful weapon that I have as a director to try to move the story forward, to try to help the host progress the story, divulge information. Stuff like that is is a smile. It's the weirdest thing. It's not talking, it's a facial expression of of interest. So a lot of times when I'm working, like like, I'll work with chefs on these long projects. I just finished one. It was seven months of working with a chef that I didn't particularly get along with um, but I spent more of less of my time talking to him and more of my time smiling and nodding and being very interested in what he was saying. UM, with a couple of little questions here and there, kind of pulling him along. It's it's an interesting thing. It's a it's it becomes emotionally draining. Um and it's hard to do. It's harder than you would think it would be to do. But that that kind of interaction and like freshness of of inter pressed you know, on my part, really can help pull that information out. And no, I and I would just say watching both Mo and Eric just during this whole shoot, I worked with some directors that just are constantly exerting their own ego on the situation. Yeah, that's a big mistake. And and it's and I've worked with these you know, guys who have been in the industry for a long time, and that's what they do. They just are constantly basically like trying to get the host to basically say what they want to say, like in this very forceful kind of and it is terrible. I mean there there are times you know, to kind of jump in and try to directing certain ways, but basically, uh, to be hands off in a way and like you, subtlety is man way more skillful and leads to such a better product than Uh. It definitely does. And what I like what I do when I go into a situation less with Steve, because Steve and I like always had a real natural sympathico and in working together, but in working with people that I have more difficulty with. UM, I will go I'll go into a scene with like two or three things that I do want the host to say, um, But ninety five percent of what I'm getting them to deliver their own ideas, things you want them to say, or like things you want them to convey, concepts, concepts that I want them to convey, not not specific dialogue UM, because I don't care how it comes out. I just but ideas that I know are important to the story arc we're trying to tell. Most of what I'll spend my time doing is again it's smiling and nodding and encouraging them to feel empowered to divulge their information and their ideas and to feel like their I is are valid, you know, and to feel like they have a voice and are empowered. You know, that's super important. And when you when a host feels confident. When you know, when a host feels like they're doing a good job and in control like that, the camera reads that. I mean, that makes a good host. That's someone the audience can look at and be like, well, this is someone who clearly feels comfortable in their environment, comfortable in the information they're divulging, you know. And then every once in a while, Pepper in like, uh, hey, remember when we talked about this, you know, and and what you're constantly trying to do is again like empower the host. Remember when you said this, Remember when we talked about this, Remember when you had that idea of this, Remember when you know those kinds of things. Again it the host has a feeling then that they're coming up with a natural, organic idea. A lot of times they are, by the way, because it's all inormation that I got in in preproduction interviews, you know, um and stuff like that. It's just that I know that right now is the time to say that, and you need delivered in a usable way at a usable time. But I want it not just delivered in a usable way in like a sound bite. I want it delivered in a confident way where the host feels comfortable and organic, and those again when you talk about like the human bullshit meter, when people are watching TV and they see someone that's empowered and feels like they really understand the the you know the context, and feel good about what they're delivering. People People buy that, man, People buy it. MO. Did you feel I mean, you were on camera this episode, did you feel that feeling that hosts probably feel often about am I saying the right thing? Or am I coming across across and like the right way? Like if there's a funny yeah, sensitivity or ego that that comes with being on camera. That's different from being behind the camera where you do think like, oh I just said a bunch of ship. Doesn't like am I saying the rights? Like is this good ship? Because it's not that you're making it up, but you're you're you know, you're on camera. It's not like it's yeah, it's a it's a performative thing. And you want to be like coming across in a good way and not like a douchey way or whatever. You know you want to you don't you want to not be failing or you don't care yeah, because you'll have conversations all the time, and we did too. Where were you almost say like, hey, what's the with this or do you remember that time? And He'll be like, oh no, no, never mind, because I'm gonna take my authentic question, my authentic recollection, save it, save it, and keep its authenticity, but then wedge it in where I needed to live right. So it's like the impetus to say it is perfectly natural, it's something you're really honestly curious about. But I'm gonna have to suspend the gratis, you know, the gratification of getting my answer in order to get my answer at the time that becomes usable for the production. So it's it's like bullshit, but not at all bullshit. It's just like a reshuffling. It's like a reshuffling of reality. And I can say that there's nothing I mean, there's nothing I said up here in in the context of the show that I don't, like one believe in my heart or aren't my feelings about this whole you know, greater subject. None of it was made up. And I didn't sit down like on the plane ride up here and like articulate the points that I thought would make me look cool. Or whatever, you know, but there definitely was a lot like a lot of moments going along or I was like, yeah, I shouldn't ask that question right now, you know, or I shouldn't say that right now. Like I know, you know that we're gonna end with a meal scene, right, Like those are thoughts that you want to say for that meal scene, because like, you know, I want a nice, impactful ending that has emotional quality and like that people can that kind of buttons the idea up and you know, and I know that like when we're starting out, I wanna, you know, set up a couple of basic principles that are gonna you know, guide us through or set us on the right trajectory to kind of tell this story. You know, if I have something I'm very passionate about an observation, did I that I'm wed to out go against my own instincts and and stick it in multiple places? Yeah, because I'm trying to like I'm hedging my back. I'm trying to make sure. So I'm like I'll say some point and then it's almost painful to me, but I'll do it, like I'm gonna do my point again. Then I'm gonna do my point again later and it's gonna be the only thing I do that meantime. I'm I'm sort of like by I'm sort of pushing this idea, that this idea has to be there, and you have a variety of ways to use it. But I know, but I mean, as we go through these hunts, you're there's a there's a lot of different ways that the hunt can play out. When we were up there, like, you know, you'll deliver some idea and and we still haven't completed a successful hunt. And it could be that we don't end up with a successful hunt, and at that moment that you deliver that idea is the most exciting moment in the show, you know. Um, But it also could be that that we then run into a lot of exciting stuff, a lot of things that happen after that that you're like, Okay, well, I I know that stuff before is getting cut out. So if I want to get this idea across, I gotta interject it. Because from an editorial standpoint and from a standpoint of telling a show that's like coherent in the language of television, they gave the cant that to some some moment in some place that we've never even seen in the show. We didn't establish where you're saying something awesome but makes absolutely no sense, you know, because they're like, wait a second, how the hell did he get there? And where did that jacket come from? You know it it has to be that. I mean, there are rules to this. It's there are rules to how a show unfolds. If we could just make a quilt, you know, like approach the show like a patchwork quilt and just plug a bunch of stuff in from a bunch of different places and whatever, we could make a you know, choose your own adventure, a very articulate story that you could you could write down on paper word for word and read it and be like, wow, that is just a brilliantly told story. But the visuals on screen would make absolutely no sense. It would be like a bad acid trip. That was a really clear decision from the very very beginning that we were not gonna use interviews, and when you don't, when you use interviews, you by default, de fact though you do not have a cinematic show. It it's no bullshit. Yeah, I see, I touched the void? What's that? Touching the void seems really based on interviews, recreations, no footage of the actual event, amazing films. I need to think about that for a second. But I need to think about it because it's it's and and by the way, like like I give you tons of props for that poll that fast. We're just talking because you definitely you definitely stumped me on that one. But but I would agree with you in general terms. You you break, you break the momentum of a cinematic story when you cut to an interview. An interview gets you out of it again. You know, people are brilliant animals and and they understand at some level that you're now going into some contrived, controlled environment with a controlled scenario, which is this guy delivering a line of dialogue that perfectly ties everything together there needs to be. And where did that come from? Where did do in shows like that come from? What the interview? Who invented that? No, like where you have people doing little interactions but then they're commenting on their own interact and us that it's efficient. Well, what news magazine shows before reality TV were very manipulative and how they people answer questions they would ask, they would phrase questions the way that basically and then and cut the interviews in a way that that made them say certain things. And I think it it went from that, uh into certain forms of reality TV where they really constructed these interviews, and then I think it was just a natural progression. I think that's I think that's a smart assessment. I'm gonna come back to Touching a Void the Void for a second. If you could have told that story in a purely verite sense, you would have. But there were one story, Touching the Void, Touching the Void, but there were no cameras, so they had to go to a recreation basis. So I don't just for just for out of sympathy for the viewers listeners. Touching the Void was about a mountaineering accident, a mountaineering disaster. Um. It was not being filmed when it happened. What mountain range, It's Cordia Blanca. Cordia Blanca range. Yeah, Prue is that Prue? And so the two people it involved a fellow who had to cut his climbing partner lose, not knowing, couldn't see his climbing partner, didn't know if he's dead or live. He's hanging on a rope below him, and and and cuts the rope. And the only way to tell the story is these two men are interviewed right exhaustibly, and there's some very artful recreations that never make you feel like you're actually watching it happen. You're very aware that it's so let me, let me and it wasn't like the old History Channel style recreation where everything gets kind of hazy. Let me let me continue on here because I do this. That was an important point in like a good you know, a good example. Um, it is a documentary in the technical sense. You can't deny that it's a documentary, but it is not verite and uh and in verite for the audience too, is is like a fancy term for real ship half French, the French figured it out chronicle and and you know, and so what we're doing in these shows is really verite. And and so that's that to me, is where the difference is. When you're inter cutting interviews into recreations that are obviously nderstood by the audience to be recreations. That's one thing. And it's a beautiful documentary. It's a brilliantly told story, probably to fiction filmmaking. And the guy was it is closer to fiction filmmaking when you're cutting interviews into verite what is supposed to be reality. That to me is when you're breaking it. The real the real gift, the real skill of of ZPs, of the company we work for, is that we over time have learned how to make cinematic verite, how to make um choices in in framing and cinematography, in music and you know, I would say, maybe not most importantly, but very up there, very excellent, excellent writing. What we what we do is we take a bunch of of ideas that come from feature filmmaking, from cinematic you know, produced feature film or narrative television making, and we apply them to verite format. And and you know that is that, to me is what has been successful with the The second you cut to an interview, a talking head interview, out of that, you break that momentum. And I guess that's what I meant for for clarification on on what I was saying before, is you can't in this kind of show, you can't do that. To me, you can't do that. Along those lines, in terms of talking about verity, a lot of that, you know, circles back to acceptance, and we were talking about this scenario where you were caught out and you couldn't get behind Mo for you guys, you know, Mo and Steve. It's something you guys talked about earlier. But that transition and that struggle of accepting a non successful hunt, you know, which was the reality of the scenario, which doesn't necessarily equate to you know, the button that you want to put on a television show or a film. What was that transition like did you feel you know a lot of anxiety around a possible non successful hunt, I mean, where you know, was it a mutual anxiety? Like how did you guys overcome that? Because, frankly, from watching the progress some of them are most successful, some of I mean some most entertaining shows that I've watched, the ones that you haven't know, I thought you couldn't do it. I thought you had to just throw it all in the garbage. No, I think that was a big I mean, that was a big leap of faith early on to to haven't. So, first of all, I think the first of my do you because I argued against it? What was your arguing just have to scrap it? Scrap it? New EPI shouldn't know something. Yeah, and we I got. We got an email one time a guy saying I've had a lot of failure in my life. I do not need to go and see you go out and fail. Wow, I don't want it always made me feel bad. I don't I don't want to go to dinner with that guy. I actually do feel bad for that guy as well, man, because I think he's missing the greater point. But but generally was it was well received, But I was that we it was the fourth was the fourth one we did. I argued that it's like, there's just no way it sucks. Yes, we'll figure something out. We'll go to my mom's and hunt squirrels in her yard. Like it was a great show. There's like a way that we don't have to use this because you can't have a hunting show where someone doesn't get something. Yeah, but you know what happened in that show? What was the reason? The reason it was the goat hunt? Um in Uh, what are you saying you didn't have any anxiety or concern about this? Of course I did from human being, you know it, But I don't remember being I don't maybe being worried about it. No, I was. I was confident in it. Well, no, I was a little worried about it, but I was. I was confident that we had made a good show. But what what happened? And what what I the reason that I argued for it and then I thought it would be successful? Is it? What what happened is all of a sudden, by by not coming home with a goat on that show, the the subject matter of the show changed. It no longer was a show about a goat hunt. The goat hunt was the structure for the show. But what the show was about was you and your brother and your writing in the way that you handled the writing, especially of the end of the last act and how that played out, made it a show about spending time with with Danny and how important that was. And it was an AHA moment because it was like, all of a sudden, it was like, wait a second, guys, there's a whole world here of stuff that we haven't explored. It's not just about hunting, you know, It's about life and philosophy and like in the you know, the relationships you have in the way that you experience the world, like any of these subject matters, any of these things can be can be the driving force of the story or the conclusion to a story. We go out and hunt, you know, we're successful, we're not successful. Whatever. But there's a huge takeaway from the audience in hearing about why it's important to go out and like spend time with your brother and have that kind of connection and that kind of bond and to be able to make a uh, smart and accurate judgment call in the moment and be like it's a nanny and a moral judgment um which some people may agree with or may not agree with. And I'm not casting judgment on where people would fall on it, but to say like, well, technically I'm legally allowed to shoot it, nanny, but you really shouldn't and and I don't want to and encouraged not to and encourage encouraged not to by vision game, but allowed to do it right exactly and and and I think that a lot of things on that episodes. For me, it's a real benchmark episode because a lot of those things came together in like it really was like a light bulb coming on. It was like, wait a second, the guys, there's a whole another world here. We don't need to feel the tremendous pressure that we've been feeling to go out and have these successful hunts, Like we can now tell more nuanced, in and articulate stories about the human experience and they don't have to be predicated on a kill shot at the end, you know, um not to not to say there's anything wrong with that, that's I mean, it's great, you know, but we told a lot of great shows, you know, a lot of great stories after that that we're about a varying degree, you know, a varying amount of subject matters that didn't have to do with necessarily killing an animal, And to me, that's what's given the show integrity and in legs. Over time, we've got a lot of stuff we can fall back on, a lot of stories we can tell, and a lot more we can tell in the future, you know, dirt myth authenticity is its including concluding I got to actually I thought of this. Can you also talk about where you're at with chewing tobacco right now? I mean, just like because you quit for you quit for a while, then in the car the other day, I quit, Yeah, baby steps, Yeah, I'm I'm I'm being supported by my friends and co workers on quitting a horrible addiction. But my concluding thoughts, no, no, one momentute. Do you see yourself chewing in a year? No, I'm gonna get yourself chewing in one month. I'm gonna quit tomorrow. No, no, don't bullshit. No, I'm gonna say. That's what I always think. And Okay, like, you don't see yourself chewning in a year? No? Do you see yourself chewing in a month? Yeah? You see yourself chewing? Oh, in six months probably? Yeah, Okay, just trying to get a sense of just see yourself chewing in eleven months, in twenty nine days, probably a lot. And then I'm quitting. Okay from so this is like a benchmark moment, like to write down history is being made. But yeah, you're concluding thoughts out, Um, sorry, I don't want to see the developed a hole in your life. I know. No, I appreciate that too. It comes it comes with love. But the yeah, the concluding thoughts, I think that the really cool thing I've been witnessed too. And this is my fifteenth so I'm new, but I'm also episodes. Yeah you meat eater? Yeah, an, so you're like I don't know how many there are total, A lot, there's a lot. There's like, yeah, we're talking about it. How many, Well home, it's it's over eight. Okay. But something that something that I've seen and that was spoken about tonight that's really cool is the crew has to be authentic to basically make it. Yes, And with that being said, that makes all that we're talking about possible. Is it's all people who are willing to put that effort in to get the authenticity. Yeah. People, it's gotta be people who enjoy it. Yeah, that's the one thing when we're talking about like issues like that in wise, like does he like run around on the woods? Yeah exactly, Yeah, Yeah, that will be helpful. That's gonna And you know what's great is how many non Hunters are sitting here right now, like and the that's because of the ethos of the show man so that you know the development of the show and Steve who Steve is and just one die hard hunter. We has got a gimpy kneed now so yeah. Yeah. Second second concluding top was if you died ABC, If I actually died right now, airway breathing circulation. I check all that ship before before before doing the podcast and then continue the podcast and it's still flatline that hit the spot, and yeah, we'd continue rolling. But that's my that's my concluding thoughts like that, that's yeah, No, it's great to work with Mo and like, you know, kind of he's like the founder of the show on the cinematic end of things, and you know, listening to him tonight and like learning some some true wisdom coming from a person who like kind of developed the show or helped develop the show. And then like you know, a second thought is, um, why we kind of all got into working in this adventure filmmaking? Adventure television is like you know, it's like anything you struggle, It's like life if you struggle, struggle, struggle to obtain this main goal, which maybe is like the main goal is to create a great, our best television show we can whether that's me you know, along the way carrying Hunter pomp packs up the steepest stuff you can imagine, like almost falling face first multiple times, or like stressing about your shop placement or as a cameraman or like where you need to be and like in the end it all works out and like having you know, building camaraderie within this one week with everyone with the same goal in mind. You know, it's it's it's kind of fulfilling for sure. So yeah, I know, another great pele w show po dubs dubs where stories are made and rain a little bit rain. The other thing that I think people need to know, Oh man, alright, does the system do it? I like to giving turns up? Was what was closing thoughts? Uh? Oh? Not's hip? Your skipping your turn you jumping the gun, jumping the gun high hold. I'm definitely that guy. For me, it's you know, it's really nice to come out here and see like um that shows in like such good hands. I mean, you guys, I think do like a tremendous job man um. And I know how I'm one of the few people that knows how hard this job is, um And it is very difficult, you know, to shoot this show. Uh, And I think you guys do a great job. And the other thing is just the satisfaction of, you know, of being here six years later and still having a successful show up and running with no signs of of weakening, you know. I mean that is a very rare thing in television to be a part of something at the beginning and see it be successful and maintain its integrity throughout a lifespan. Eight shows is no joke by any you know, strategy the imagination. There's no reason to think that it won't be a hundred and a hundred plus in Um, those are real rarities in what we do. You know, most of the time you're working on a show that gets canceled after the first season. Uh. Most of the time you're you're working on some show that's a pitch that never sees the light of day. There's hundreds of them, you know. Um. I've had the benefit of of working on a couple with legs that really that really run and run. And for me, this one, for a number of reasons, has been the most important and the most fulfilling over time, um, and has done more to shape who I am uh today uh in my belief system than than any other. So it's been a tremendous gift. Tremendous gift. Yeah. So I can't really follow that. I don't whatever I'm gonna say. Yeah, but all about how when they're watching a wildlife watching the wildlife sequence, how what they don't realize is there's a hundred people standing there filming the same thing. There's yeah, there's a lot of wow. I'm not gonna talk about that either, but what I am gonna say is this, this is a very physical job. And I'm always like, I think of myself as somebody that's uh, you know, like in some ways exceptionally fit to be able to like your right along where you gonna say, you're not, no, no, I'm I'm fine. But everybody else carrying like I'm just impressed with the crew that's on the show. Everybody, how one how much ship they're carrying. You know, I had all my dive weights in my pack exactly know, and it's crazy there, but I didn't even notice. You know. It's it's like a club of some sense that you're a part of. It's to film a show like this. Rogan called it a tribe, and you're just you're, yes, when people go hiking, everybody's tired hiking. But when you're hiking with extra film stuff and then you're running ahead and like doing we just weird things that you would never do as a normal person. And I like to think, Okay, I am somebody that can do this weird thing. But then you see like five other six other people doing this and you're like, what the hell, there's there's other people that are also this and it's a it's a really strange set of folks that enjoy this type of activity. And I like that. There's the folks that have worked on meat eat or have gone on to do other, you know, bigger, better things, or but they look at meat eaters a place where that is very, I don't know, very fulfilling. And I think everybody wants when they work, to do something that's fulfilling. And it's cool to to to be a part of a group that is fulfilled by working on a show, because there's a lot of TV that is the opposite of this. But you work on something, you feel good about it and uh, and hopefully people enjoy it and even later when they become traders, they still look bad. Bade Eric Um just Biggie backing off of everyone's points. I think, Um, it's uh, it is a bit of a tribe. I think. You know, if when you meet someone, um that has worked on this show, um and inherently a part of that process, you know, struggled through probably some intense weather conditions and some long, long days and uh and long it's you immediately feel bonded with that person. And I think you guys are talking about it earlier. Um it's it kind of also redefines you know, fun in the moment, it feels arduous. But those are frankly some of the best experiences I've ever had, and some of the best stories that I tell our stories from Mediator shoots, you know, stories experiences added with you Steve or or crew members here. And and these are guys, you know, half these guys I just met like three or four days ago, and and we'll now walk away, you know, calling them without a question my friends. UM. And so I think that that is a really really unique um, you know platform and you know experience that Mediator gives you, um, every time you come out, whether you're working on it, And hopefully that's something that people take away with, you know, their audience members that watched this. For my thought, uh, I want to talk about something someone said to me at the first TV meeting I ever went to, because and it's applicable to life in general. I think where it was someone named Gloria Fan who I still keep in touch with, a producer and I went out and met with her and some other people in Los Angeles in I think two thousand four or two thousand five, and uh, we sat down in the room and we're gonna talk about trying to do something with hunting and others ideas. And the first thing she says, she says, it's it's impossible to get anything made. Nothing gets done. It's just one frustration after the other leads nowhere with that, let's get started, all right, thanks for tuning in. It's the documentary. It's the documentary episode. There wasn't a lot about hunting in this episode. It was a lot of Yeah, I mean, if you want to go to film school, then then listen, let's go to biology first. All right. That was fun. Yep, thanks guys, Thank you,

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